Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4910

1 [Open session]

2 [The accused entered court]

3 --- Upon commencing at 10.12 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you call the case, please, Madam Registrar?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good, Your Honours. This is case number

6 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.x

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you. We are starting late, we

8 were scheduled to start at 10.00 in any case. But we are starting later

9 for the simple reason that I've had a short meeting with the ICTY doctor

10 and also another official to make sure that it's safe to sit in this

11 courtroom today following the discovery of the legionella bacterium in the

12 water cooling towers of this institution.

13 I am told that all measures that were needed have been taken over

14 the weekend; and that although a final test will be carried out on

15 Wednesday, that's in two days' time, we are certainly -- this courtroom is

16 safer today than it was or it might have been on Thursday and Friday.

17 That's the position as I have it. But I wanted to bring this to your

18 information and I'm leaving everyone free to withdraw from the courtroom

19 if he or she so desires, feeling that it may be -- we feel that we can

20 continue, but we are only speaking for ourselves. So that's the position.

21 I know that there are some preliminaries or some matters that you

22 would like to address us about. There is one that I better raise now,

23 because otherwise I will forget it.

24 Mr. McCloskey, you remember the brief exchange we had when we

25 were -- came back to you actually on one of your motions, protective

Page 4911

1 measures, for a number of witnesses. And we told you there is a

2 discrepancy between when you were seeking and what they had been granted

3 before, and you then filed a revised annex A with the last column

4 specifying the protective measures now being requested, putting us also in

5 a position where we could compare with the previous two cases, Blagojevic

6 and Krstic, and you were glad that we check on you.

7 We check even twice; and since we were advised at the end of last

8 week who the next witnesses are going to be after Major Rutten finishes

9 testimony, I've discovered the following: Witness number 70 - and it's

10 easy to explain what happened - following your revised assessment, you

11 said, "Same as in Blagojevic." In Blagojevic, this witness was granted

12 pseudonym, but he was a 92 bis witness who had testified in Krstic. And

13 in Krstic, he hadn't testified with a pseudonym only, as indicated in

14 annex -- readvised annex A, but I found out that he had also testified

15 with face distortion. So I think it's the case of Prosecution amending

16 its request, because it means basically that our decision, pursuant to

17 your request, amends the protective measures that govern this person. And

18 we need to rectify, we need to rectify that.

19 The same applies to Witness number 80. Again, you said, "Same as

20 in Blagojevic." Blagojevic indeed he had pseudonym only, but again this

21 was a Rule 92 bis witness. I found out that in Krstic, he not only had a

22 pseudonym but he also had facial and voice distortion. So we need to

23 rectify this as well. I mean, I don't want a response from you. I'm sure

24 you will verify this, come back to us, possibly later on today, so that we

25 hand down an oral decision amending our previous written decision.

Page 4912

1 Because in relation to 70 and 80, we have just identified pseudonym and

2 nothing else.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Mr. Nicholls identified the

4 problem with 70, who is the next witness, as you know, and I think he has

5 mentioned that to Defence counsel. So that is an immediacy that we

6 appreciate you identifying and as the witness would like that, he's told

7 us that he would like that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So I was working on the

9 assumption that the witness hasn't renounced to these previous protective

10 measures. I mean, if I am wrong, obviously my assumption, you will let us

11 know.

12 Yes. Now I understand there are some -- some of you would like to

13 address the Chamber. Mr. Bourgon, welcome back.

14 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Judges.

15 Good morning to my colleagues on the other sides of the courtroom. Mr.

16 President, we've had an opportunities to examine the Prosecution motion

17 for protective measures, which was filed on 28 November. And preliminary

18 consideration is that in order to avoid any delay in the proceedings, we

19 will have no objections with witness number 70 testifying pursuant to

20 protective measures. That being said, Mr. President, I'm now in a

21 position to confirm that on behalf of all Defence teams, that the

22 Prosecution motion filed on 28 November does raise some serious concerns

23 which we believe need to be addressed without delay.

24 Accordingly, Mr. President, we figure that this calls for a

25 three-fold Defence response. And with your permission, first, I would

Page 4913

1 begin by highlighting some general principles which we respectfully submit

2 should guide the Trial Chamber when deciding whether or not to grant or to

3 order protective measures.

4 Secondly, my colleagues representing the accused Miletic and Beara

5 will address the specifics of the Prosecution motion; and, thirdly, the

6 Defence will file a written joint response for the consideration of the

7 Trial Chamber.

8 With your leave, Mr. President, I will begin with those general

9 principles.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: The practice that we have adopted here is that we

12 try to avoid as much as possible taking from sitting time to deal with

13 procedural matters that are not of the utmost urgency. So what I suggest

14 is that if you have submissions to make that you draw them up in writing,

15 and then we'll give them all due consideration with shortening of time

16 limits if necessary, Mr. Bourgon.

17 But, otherwise, we would have this witness waiting in the waiting

18 room, when this is probably the last day that he has available to give

19 evidence before being called back to his duties. You were not here last

20 week, but we had to struggle to make him stay here or keep him here on

21 Monday to finish his testimony.

22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I fully

23 understand, and we will endeavour to put those general principles into our

24 written response. However, we do believe that at this time that it is

25 important for us to at least highlight some of the specific concerns that

Page 4914

1 we have with the Prosecution motion, and I would invite you,

2 Mr. President, to allow my colleague for Mr. Beara.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, do not make us take more of the sitting

4 time. We've already -- we started at 10.00. We haven't started this

5 basically the sitting as yet, and we have a witness that needs to finish

6 today. And this witness is here today, because we decided to allow each

7 and every Defence team as much time as you required to properly

8 cross-examine this witness.

9 Yes, Mr. Ostojic?

10 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. I think

11 the confusion may be that the Court invited the Defence to raise this

12 issue Monday morning in last week' session, so we wanted to do that. And

13 we can wait certainly and we'll wait until this witness passes, or at a

14 time that's convenient. And that's why we thought it was appropriate to

15 raise it immediately, but we understand the Court and we can I think hold

16 off until whenever the court deems it appropriate.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. What the court had told

18 you, Mr. Ostojic, was that since we are pressed for time, and particularly

19 since one of the witnesses would start mid-week, Tuesday or Wednesday at

20 the latest, we asked you to come possibly with a common response by today.

21 Either by last Friday, when we were not sitting in writing or today, but

22 that, with a view to know whether you were agreeing or objecting. If you

23 are objecting, it's still until today.

24 In other words, we want it in writing, and we will require to have

25 it now. Since you are not objecting to Witness number 70, we can delay it

Page 4915

1 until tomorrow. But the whole idea was to -- but let's not take more of

2 the sitting time. I mean the idea was to know whether you objected or

3 not, particularly since in the past you have not objected.

4 Yes, Ms. Fauveau, I understand you also had some matter to raise.

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I will also

6 present a written motion like my colleagues.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your cooperation. Who was the

8 third? All right. Okay. All right.

9 Yes. Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Mr. Thayer, can we bring the

10 witness in? Let's escort the witness into the courtroom, please.

11 [The witness entered court]


13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Major.

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to proceed with your cross-examination

16 and hopefully finish with you today. Mr. Lazarevic was cross-examining

17 you when we needed to adjourn last Thursday. Mr. Lazarevic, please go

18 ahead.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour, and good morning.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

21 Q. Good morning, Major Rutten.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. [Interpretation] When we broke off last Thursday, we were dealing

24 with what happened at the meadow when you said you found nine bodies. I

25 would now like to continue my examination with regard to these events.

Page 4916

1 In your statement, you mentioned that on that meadow where you

2 were, there was a certain number of documents. Do you recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you have a look at those documents, you personally?

5 A. Some -- I saw some which were picked up by the sergeant major, but

6 I had not a close look on them.

7 Q. Very well. Can you tell me how many documents there were, to the

8 best of your recollection?

9 A. I didn't count them.

10 Q. Did you perhaps see whether there were any photographs on them?

11 A. There were IDs with photographs; that was what I saw. And I don't

12 recollect if there were any with or without -- I did -- as I said before,

13 I didn't examine them thoroughly.

14 Q. Did Koster perhaps examine them more thoroughly than you?

15 A. That could have been, but I asked the Sergeant Major van Schaik to

16 pick them up, and he had them in his hand. So he saw them much better

17 than I did.

18 Q. Very well. If you say that, to the best of your recollection,

19 these were IDs, did you perhaps compare those documents to the bodies that

20 you found on the meadow, as you said?

21 A. I did -- as I said before, I didn't look at them fairly clearly.

22 That was something the sergeant major did, so I can't -- I can't say that

23 either I have compared those with the men who laid in the meadow.

24 Q. Very well. Then we can conclude that you do not know, in actual

25 fact, whether these documents belonged to the people whose bodies you

Page 4917

1 found on that meadow, the nine bodies you referred to?

2 A. I can't deny, nor can I conclude the same thing as you do.

3 Q. Precisely. At one moment you heard a gunshot and you left that

4 meadow, and van Schaik threw those documents somewhere along the way. Was

5 that the way it happened?

6 A. There were more -- there was more gun fire, but the thing that you

7 said about the sergeant major is correct, I think, yes.

8 Q. Right. As far as I managed to see from your statement - that is

9 3D37, on page 4, last paragraph - you said that you told van Schaik to

10 throw away the documents, because you were afraid for your security. Is

11 that right?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. However, in the debriefing on the 6th of September 1995 - that is

14 3D42, on page 2 of the English version - you say that van Schaik threw the

15 documents away on his own, of his own accord, because he was afraid. So

16 what is correct? Did you order him to throw them away, or did he do it of

17 his own accord because he was afraid?

18 A. In such a situation, there happened things, simultaneously, so I

19 said to him and probably he already -- he already thought of the same

20 situation that could have happened as I did. So we were in the same unit,

21 so you don't have to say much against each other to know what you have to

22 do. Okay.

23 Q. Yes. Further on you said that you returned to base by helping

24 carry the stretchers, do you remember that?

25 A. Yes, I remember.

Page 4918

1 Q. Can you tell me now where you found those stretchers?

2 A. We didn't found any stretchers. There were a lot of soldiers from

3 DutchBat were helping people through the blockade, people who were

4 injured, and were working there next to the road, medical personnel. And

5 as in the moment, we saw that it was easy for us, as a DutchBater, to help

6 them so we could easily get through the blockade.

7 Q. Very well. Perhaps the question was put wrongly or perhaps the

8 interpretation was inappropriate. I didn't you say that you sort of found

9 them somewhere. Where did you come across those persons who had the

10 stretchers, the persons you joined in order to get to the base? How far

11 away is the base, actually?

12 A. It was on the other side of the four APCs of the blockade. It's a

13 few hundred metres, probably 200, I think. And it was next to the road

14 that lead through the blockade of the four APCs that stood there.

15 Q. Yes. Thank you. I think that -- well, roughly, that is a rather

16 detailed explanation, 200 metres away from the APCs, but in the direction

17 that is opposite to the base; is that right?

18 A. Yes. That's right, yes.

19 Q. These stretchers that you joined, did they have any wheels or

20 rollers?

21 A. No. They were stretchers that were carried.

22 Q. But these were stretchers belonging to the DutchBat, right?

23 A. Yes, you're right, yes.

24 Q. Who was carrying these stretchers when you joined them? Was it

25 Dutch soldiers who were carrying them?

Page 4919

1 A. More of them were Dutch soldiers and some personnel of MSF.

2 Q. All right. And who was on the stretchers? Were these empty

3 stretchers, or were there some persons there?

4 A. There were some persons on the stretcher. There was one person on

5 the stretcher, actually.

6 Q. Was this a member of the DutchBat perhaps or somebody you did not

7 know in uniform and civilian clothing? Can you tell us a bit more about

8 that person?

9 A. It was someone in civilian clothing, one of the Muslim population

10 that were around the bus remise.

11 Q. And, practically, you were helping have that person brought to the

12 Dutch base. Was the person carried into the Dutch base?

13 A. No. We brought the person near the car wash, because at the car

14 wash there was a post of DutchBat with medical personnel stationed at that

15 moment.

16 Q. And that's where you left that person. What did you do then? Did

17 you take the stretcher to the base, or did you leave the stretcher there,

18 too? And did the three of you just go to the base on your own? How did

19 all of this end?

20 A. We left the stretcher at that place near the car wash with the

21 medical personnel. They cared for the person who was on the stretcher.

22 And I went back towards the base, and there I met the Lieutenant Colonel

23 Karremans, who was also near the APC blockade.

24 Q. Very well. Just one more question in relation to this: From

25 where were they carrying this person? Can you tell me that? From where

Page 4920

1 was that person being carried when you joined up?

2 A. I cannot say that specifically, because I don't know. It just --

3 the stretcher came by, and we hooked just on to help them.

4 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move on to another topic.

5 You testified on the 5th of April this year [as interpreted] in

6 the Krstic case, and your testimony from that case was admitted into

7 evidence in this case, too. On page 21 from the Krstic case, you said

8 that during the course of the day -- it's 2121. I apologise. And here

9 also it says this year, it's on April 2000. That's a correction for the

10 transcript.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. At any rate, you testified there that during the course of the

14 day, Serb soldiers were threatening you, that you had to hand over

15 weapons, your radio communications equipment, and your armour; and then

16 you said, "[In English] They were coming in; we were threatened. And I,

17 at first, had to give up my weapon and my vest and the rest of my things."

18 [Interpretation] On the next page of the transcript, you describe

19 the circumstances under which your equipment was taken away from you. And

20 as you describe that you said, "[In English] He moved his gun on my head

21 at the rear side and said, 'I know your communication set now.'" .

22 [Interpretation] Do you remember your testimony in the Krstic case

23 in relation to these events? Did you have occasion to look at the

24 transcript during your proofing or while you were getting ready to testify

25 here?

Page 4921

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. The reason why you handed over your weapons on that

3 occasion and equipment was the fact that that soldier pointed a gun at

4 you. Was that the reason why you decided to hand over your weapons and

5 your equipment?

6 A. The soldier was somewhat earlier also with me to -- that I had to

7 deliver my equipment, but I said, "Look for your commander, because I'm

8 not dealing with you." And later on, the commander came and the same

9 soldier, and the -- he said, "Give up your things and your communication

10 set and so on." I denied that, but -- and I turned my back against him,

11 and then he pointed a gun at me.

12 And at the moment I turned again, I saw the gun pointed at me and

13 said, "okay," and then the soldier already took my things; and then just

14 before that, I had a few seconds' time. And that was the reason I turned,

15 because I could give a message to the battalion or at least to the other

16 company that I was being held and I had to deliver my things.

17 Q. All right. Basically my question is far more simple, and I think

18 it requires a lot less explanation. The reason why a gun was pointed at

19 you, was that a serious threat? And was that the reason why you handed

20 over your equipment and your weapons?

21 A. It was a serious threat, because the first time the soldier was

22 with me I could send him away. But the second time before the gun was

23 pointed, it was already loaded because he brought the bullet in the

24 chamber of his weapon.

25 Q. All right. So I can understand that the reason why you decided at

Page 4922

1 one point in time to do that was the fact that a gun was pointed at you

2 and that you took that as a serious threat.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to draw your attention to

5 an earlier event. When you talk about events that had occurred somewhat

6 before the event that we have just discussed, you testified about that in

7 -- on page 2119, lines 6 through 9. And you talked about the first

8 incident between you and a group of Serb soldiers; and on that page that I

9 quoted, this is what you say: "[In English] I grabbed my weapon. I

10 pointed at the Serbs; and at that time, they let go of my personnel so

11 they could get back to me."

12 [Interpretation] So at one moment that precedes this event, you

13 pointed your weapon at a Serb soldier. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I remember that.

15 Q. And you will agree with me that a threat with weapons, pointing a

16 weapon at someone, is of the same intensity, regardless of whether it is a

17 Serb soldier or a member of a Dutch Battalion?

18 A. You point -- you give here a situation that is different. Because

19 that event you spoke about was -- happened earlier that day, and was

20 because they were not only looting our personal gear at some broken bus on

21 the bus remise, but they also -- and I was sending two of my soldiers,

22 because they were looting our personal things, and those two soldiers were

23 held. And at that moment there was gunfire coming from the hill towards

24 the bus, and there was a certain -- a rise of panic between the two Serb

25 soldiers that were looting there.

Page 4923

1 And the moment that I saw that, I went to them with my weapon

2 pointed at the Serb soldiers from some distance, that they had to leave my

3 men because they were using my two men as a form of a shield. And at that

4 moment that that happened, that was the reason that I interfered. And I

5 pointed the weapon towards the Serbs. Yes, that's true.

6 Q. Yes, sir. I'm well aware of this. This is in your testimony in

7 the Krstic case when you described the event. I'm just drawing your

8 attention to the fact that at one point in time, you pointed your gun in

9 the direction of a Serb soldier. And I asked you, was that a threat to

10 their security just as much as it was a threat to your security when they

11 pointed their gun at you?

12 A. As I described it before, it was a total different situation.

13 Q. Very well. I'm just suggesting what the most obvious reason was

14 for you to be disarmed. However, all members of the DutchBat were not

15 disarmed at that time. You know for instance that Lieutenant Koster never

16 surrendered his weapon. You remember that. He had his rifle on him.

17 A. That is correct, but he was on the road next to a lot of cameras

18 and I was on the side of the -- of the bus remise. So there were a lot of

19 difficulties at our side, and I was not the only officer that got

20 disarmed. My group what was -- was disarmed and also some other personnel

21 of DutchBat were disarmed in that following hours.

22 Q. Yes. But you will agree with me that many others were not

23 disarmed, who were also members of the DutchBat. I'm just trying to

24 establish the reason for some being disarmed and others not. And I am

25 suggesting that the reason was that you had threatened the Serb soldiers.

Page 4924

1 Now, let us locate this in time. This was happening on the 12th

2 of July, was it not?

3 A. Yes, you're correct.

4 Q. So this incident, when you were disarmed, did this happen before

5 General Mladic's arrival or after his arrival?

6 A. After his arrival.

7 Q. In this connection, you see, there is a videotape which has been

8 admitted into evidence, and this is Prosecution Exhibit P02047. And on

9 this recording, I shall try to deal with some technical problems because

10 it will take some time for my case manager to be able to arrange this.

11 One can see a larger number of Dutch soldiers with weapon. Are you aware

12 of that? Would you like us to take a look together at this recording?

13 A. Is it --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, if you want to proceed with it, let's

15 proceed with it. I mean you're asking him to know whether he would like

16 or wouldn't like --

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I think so. If he remembers, that was my

18 question, but if he doesn't, I mean, we have no problem with looking at

19 this footage.

20 It seems that we have some difficulties.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I think we are ready now. I saw it on the screen.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, Mr. Lazarevic, if I could be of some help.

24 If the purpose of this whole exercise is to get a confirmation from the

25 witness whether it is correct that at this particular point in time that

Page 4925

1 you are referring to there were several members of DutchBat carrying

2 weapons, perhaps you can ask him the question. And he can tell you

3 whether he grease or not, in which case you will not need the video any

4 more, then. Yes, Mr. Thayer, sorry.

5 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I don't want to slow things down. But

6 if we are given a time, we can call up the movie on Sanction and show it

7 that way. And we have got it queued up. I think we know from the exhibit

8 list the clip that Mr. Lazarevic wants to show. I just leave it at that.

9 I'm happy to save time, though.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, Mr. Thayer. Mr. Lazarevic can

11 perhaps tell you -- tell us whether he would like that.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, maybe the best situation would be to ask the

13 witness whether he can confirm that a number of DutchBat members were

14 armed at the time; and if not, then we can proceed. It seems that now

15 it's okay. I believe we can show this to --

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: That was what I wanted to show to the witness.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this was a recording broadcast by Reuters,

19 and it happened after General Mladic 's arrival; and according to your

20 testimony, this happened after you and your group were disarmed. Have you

21 just seen a large number of members of the DutchBat carrying weapons?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I believe their --

23 MR. THAYER: Respectfully, Your Honour, I don't believe this was

24 this witness's testimony. I believe he testified he was disarmed after

25 General's Mladic's arrival.

Page 4926

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what he had testified, because you had a

2 previous direct question.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Then I apologise. I apologise. Okay.

4 Q. [Interpretation] So you did see a large number of members of

5 DutchBat who were armed even after General Mladic arrived?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. And not to dwell on this issue further, may we note that some were

8 disarmed, but a large number were left with their weapons and equipment.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

10 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I believe at this time we need a good

11 date and time frame for this question to be intelligible on the record.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I mean, the -- you seem to be referring all

13 the time --

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: On the 12th.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Perhaps you can be very specific about timing,

16 because I would imagine that some -- not everyone that was disarmed was

17 disarmed at the same time. So I think we need to be specific. You seem

18 to be concentrating on the time after the arrival of Mladic.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I can clarify with the witness, although it

20 is already in his transcript in Krstic case, where he said that it was

21 afternoon somewhere, at 12.00, when he saw General Mladic. And this is a

22 period from, well, let's say something like 12.00, 1.00 in the afternoon.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, are we talking about the same time

24 period now, that is from the moment you saw General Mladic, about noon,

25 when he was in the same location as you, and the next hour or two after

Page 4927

1 that? Are we talking about that time frame?

2 A. Yes. More or less, you're talking of the same time frame, yes.

3 Can I see the text on my screen again? Thank you. It's already done.

4 Q. Thank you. Let us now move on to another issue.

5 The events in Srebrenica took place quite sometime ago. Can we

6 agree in general terms that your memory of the events in Srebrenica was

7 fresher immediately after the events than in the year 2000 and today in

8 the year 2006?

9 A. Yes, in general. You can say that, yes.

10 Q. In 1995, you could not describe the appearance of the commander of

11 the unit that captured you, because you said they didn't wear any

12 insignia. This can be found in the questionnaire that you filled in in

13 1995. Do you remember that?

14 A. The question -- that wasn't -- as I recall it, it wasn't asked

15 whether I knew the commander or not. There was called whether I knew what

16 unit it was and if I knew what units were acting in the enclave; and that

17 was then the question to that answer.

18 Q. We'll come back to that again later, of course. But in the

19 transcript, in the Krstic case, pages 21 to 23 of the transcript -- 2123--

20 you said it was Captain Mane who said that you could go back to your base

21 after having spent sometime without your weapons and that two soldiers

22 escorted you to the base.

23 Mr. Rutten, the fact is that the name of Captain Mane is mentioned

24 by you for the first time on the 5th of April 2000 in the Krstic case. I

25 have carefully looked through your statements, your debriefings, but the

Page 4928

1 name of Captain Mane never appeared until the Krstic case. Can you

2 confirm that?

3 A. The name of -- that could have been but the name of captain Mane

4 was earlier named by other colleagues during the days in the enclave. And

5 the reason why it's not in the different questionnaires or reports don't

6 mean that Mane, Captain Mane was never named by me or other colleagues.

7 It just wasn't a question to it.

8 Q. Is that the answer to my question? My question was: Did you

9 mention him? Leave -- let us leave aside for a moment the testimony of

10 others?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he just answered it.


13 Q. [Interpretation] And if we take a look at 3D40, that is the number

14 it can carries in the system. And this is the questionnaire which all

15 members of the UN forces were asked to fill in. On pages 1 and 2 of that

16 document, you say that you were captured by the Bosnian Serb army, and you

17 said that these soldiers said that they belonged to special police forces

18 of the army; and that you couldn't describe the appearance of the

19 commanders, because these soldiers did not give their names, nor did they

20 carry any insignia. You also said that you were not physically attacked

21 or mistreated. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, I do remember that.

23 Q. Do you abide by that statement?

24 A. The question is that they asked something else in that

25 questionnaire than I think than you're asking me now. Could you describe

Page 4929

1 to me again your question now?

2 Q. [In English] Oh, yes. Perhaps it would be much better for the

3 witness to take a look at the document itself. It's 3D40, and --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Which page?

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's next page, I think. But maybe it would be

6 better just to -- just one question regarding this first page.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Major Rutten, do you recognise your handwriting

8 on this document?

9 A. Yes, that's my handwriting.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we take a look at the next page? Can we go

11 down, down, a bit down and then next page, please. Okay, the last part of

12 this page is what I was referring to. No. I apologise. That's not the

13 one that I want. Can we go back to second page for one moment?

14 Q. [Interpretation] So you see here on page 2 -- [In English]. ...and

15 they stated that they belonged to a special police force of the army.

16 [Interpretation] And then below AK 47 you find the following

17 words, I can't describe any of it because they didn't tell their names [In

18 English] or any insignia.

19 [Interpretation] And then on the next page, in answer to a

20 question, "Were you threatened with any harm, if you disobey, [In English]

21 resisted your captors, what exactly was said?"

22 "We were treated well."

23 And then after that there was a question, "Were you physically

24 attacked or maltreated by your captors at the time; if so describe what

25 happened and then injuries sustained."

Page 4930

1 You answered, "No."

2 [Interpretation] Were these your answers given in that

3 questionnaire?

4 A. Yes, they were.

5 Q. And do you stand by the answers you gave at that time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you very much. In the debriefing to the Royal Dutch Army,

8 Exhibit 3D42, on page 3, last paragraph of the English version, you state

9 that you saw Serb civilians entering Srebrenica in various vehicles,

10 carrying away goods in those vehicles. Do you remember saying that in the

11 debriefing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And when you saw those people who came to examine those goods, did

14 you notice whether they opened those rucksacks and carried away everything

15 of value?

16 A. I didn't study them while they were taking the things, but they

17 were loading everything on to wheelbarrows, carriages, cars, whatever they

18 found.

19 Q. During the examination last week, you said that there were many

20 things in the base, along the road, around the "White House," and

21 everywhere where there were refugees. I would just like to ask you two

22 things in this connection.

23 The first is: Those things that were left behind in the base, did

24 the refugees decide to leave them on their own before they boarded the

25 buses, or were they told by someone that they had to leave those things

Page 4931

1 behind?

2 A. It depends where that happened. If it was along the road where

3 the refugees were assembled to go by groups, by 60 or 70 to go to the

4 buses and they carried a lot of things, they were told by the Serbs to

5 leave it there, or sometimes they took it out of their hands. And if you

6 refer to the "White House," later on or further down the bus line, then

7 they were told to leave everything outside the "White House" on the pile I

8 described last week.

9 Q. I was thinking of the third case, neither of these two. I was

10 thinking of the compound, the things that were left within the compound.

11 Did any of the Dutch soldiers tell the refugees to leave their own things

12 in the base?

13 A. Which compound are you now speaking about? On the Bravo compound

14 in Srebrenica or the compound in Potocari?

15 Q. I'm talking about Potocari.

16 A. The people were never told to leave something on Dutch command.

17 They were told to take their things, and they were given some extra

18 things, even though. So I don't understand where you're referring to now.

19 Q. I'm referring to the fact that many things were left within the

20 base that belonged to the refugees. Is your answer that they left those

21 things on their own accord?

22 A. They had to leave them because they couldn't carry them any more.

23 So it must have been on their own accord.

24 Q. Precisely so. That is my opinion, too.

25 This pile of things was the object of a search by people who had

Page 4932

1 come in various vehicles, who searched those things, and took away

2 anything of any value; is that right?

3 A. But now you're connecting the things that are in the Potocari

4 base, you're connecting that with the pile I described outside of the

5 "White House," and that -- these are two different occasions. And I

6 described in my earlier statement the situation near the pile and near the

7 buses and though -- and also with the pile with the "White House." So

8 there have never been Serbian people taking things from out of the

9 Potocari compound itself; the moment we were there, at least.

10 Q. Fine. That's what I'm saying, that they didn't enter the Potocari

11 base, but that they looted things along the road next to the "White House"

12 and close to the bus remise. Is that your testimony? So your saying that

13 it was outside the base that people were looting things?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you exclude the possibility that the people who were looting

16 were also the people who set fire to what remained after they had

17 collected everything of value?

18 A. That is -- I can't exclude that possibility, neither can I confirm

19 it.

20 Q. Very well. In your statement to the Dutch military police on the

21 2nd of August 1995, that was shortly after the events - this is Exhibit

22 3D41 - in paragraph 3, you said that you saw Serbs searching through the

23 goods of deported men about 11.00 on the 14th of July.

24 And you said that a pile of clothes, passports and other things,

25 were set on fire. You said that the fire was burning for roughly one day.

Page 4933

1 So that is more or less in accordance with what you said here. I just

2 wish you to confirm that this was happening on the 14th, if you can.

3 A. It must have been happened during the 14th, but the connection

4 that you make between -- in that sentence between the men, the Serbian

5 people who were looting the things and who -- who actually already set

6 fire to the pile, that is something that I cannot confirm.

7 Q. I don't expect you to do that. I just would like you to confirm

8 something that another member of the DutchBat testified to in connection

9 with this event, if possible. And he said that when those things were

10 burned, a considerable amount of ammunition exploded, which was among that

11 pile, and you made photographs of that pile burning. Did you hear

12 explosions of ammunition that was among those goods belonging to the

13 refugees?

14 A. I never saw ammunition when I watched the pile a day earlier.

15 And I never hear -- heard ammunition explode during the burning of the

16 pile in front of the "White House." And I'm certain that I never heard

17 that, because that would arose my attention then. So, no, I don't think

18 so that that happened; but, okay, that's my opinion.

19 Q. Of course. Is that to say that what the other member of the

20 DutchBat testified to is not true?

21 A. I cannot say that here, because it could have been a different

22 situation and a different pile and totally somewhere else. So you're

23 asking me to draw a conclusion with no facts or details. I cannot do

24 that.

25 Q. All right. Let's move on to a different topic now.

Page 4934

1 Again, we are on the 13th. We are going back to the 13th from the

2 14th, and we are going back to the episode between you and Mr. Van Duijn,

3 who was then a Lieutenant. At one point in time, on the 13th of July,

4 there was a misunderstanding between the two of you. And on that

5 occasion, you held something against him; namely, his participation in the

6 evacuation of refugees. Do you remember what I'm talking about? Do you

7 remember that event?

8 A. Yes, I do remember that.

9 Q. When speaking about these events before the parliamentary

10 commission - that is 3D39, on page 14, and it's the last paragraph - and

11 as you were speaking directly about the separation of the men and van

12 Duijn's role, you said the following, I'm going to quote now.

13 "[In English] Groups were assembled at one location, and a few

14 hundred metres away the people were directed to the buses. I had already

15 observed that morning that the men and women were being separated in the

16 area in between. Van Duijn did not have a direct view of this."

17 [Interpretation] Is this the way you remember that, that van Duijn

18 did not have a view of this, could not see what was going on?

19 A. That is correct, because he was just next -- standing next to the

20 four APCs.

21 Q. At one point in time, you got into an argument with Serb soldiers

22 and you used the term "Nazi methods." You said Nazi practice, actually,

23 which led to a very harsh reaction on the part of the Serb soldiers who

24 refused to continue participating in that. Do you remember that?

25 A. I don't understand the question that you ask, "refused continuing

Page 4935

1 participating in that?" I don't understand that. Could you address that

2 question again?

3 Q. [In English] I apologise. I will clarify it.

4 [Interpretation] They refused to continue their participation in

5 the evacuation of civilians from Potocari.

6 A. And you mean with "they," the Serb soldiers to continue their

7 participation?

8 Q. [In English] Precisely so.

9 A. Okay. But -- yeah, I must laugh because it isn't a laughable

10 situation, because how come they didn't want to participate because they

11 were in control? We were unable to do this.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop. Let's bring up 3D39, please.

13 Initially, your first question was whether he could remember what you were

14 alleging in this document.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] That was my first question.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think I need to stop what's happening straight

17 away by referring the witness to what is allegedly contained in this

18 document. So let's bring it up. Is it up?

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I have stenographers minutes of the hearing.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, perhaps I can explain. I did quote

22 one part of the document. But then after that, what I'm discussing now

23 with the witness about participation of Serb soldiers about his incident

24 with soldiers calling these methods as Nazi practice is not contained in

25 this document. It comes from another testimony before this Court.

Page 4936

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Another person's testimony or his testimony?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. It has to do with the testimony of another

3 DutchBat member who appeared before this Tribunal.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- yes, Mr. Thayer?

5 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if I may, there is a discussion in this,

6 on the very next page, concerning this Nazi practices issue. I just

7 wanted to clarify that for the record. He is asked to elaborate on that

8 on page 15 of this parliamentary inquiry.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: What is perturbing me somewhat is when I read back

10 your first question, which, to my understanding, arose out of 3D39. I'm

11 referring you to page 25, line 19. And your question was at one point in

12 time,"You got into an argument with Serb soldiers and you used the term

13 Nazi methods. You said Nazi practice, which led to a very hard reaction

14 on the part of the Serb soldiers who refused to continue participating in

15 that. Do you remember that?"

16 And then the witness told you that he couldn't understand what you

17 were asking.

18 And then immediately say,"They refused to continue their

19 participation in the evacuation of civilians from Potocari."

20 And you are obviously referring to the Serbian soldiers, but

21 you're also referring, as I understand it, to something which the witness

22 allegedly stated in this previous statement. So I think we need to

23 eliminate any source of confusion here. And if you are referring to

24 anything specific, please let's show it to the witness and move on.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, okay. This particular part is not what was

Page 4937

1 contained. It was what I -- that was my conclusion that I drew from

2 previous testimonies.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'm not trying to say that you said that in

4 one of your statements. What I'm putting to you now is that due to that;

5 namely, that you called the Serb soldiers -- or, rather, that you used the

6 words "Nazi practices," that there was an incident due to that, and that

7 the Serb soldiers refused to continue participating in the evacuation of

8 refugees, and that that interruption went on for almost one hour. Can you

9 confirm that for me?

10 A. No, I cannot confirm that, because that was the situation that

11 Lieutenant van Duijn described in his statements. And I am -- I never

12 agreed on that, because the Serbs had a clear intention to have a very

13 smooth operations with no interference of DutchBat or whatsoever. So it

14 was clearly the opinion of my colleague, van Duijn. I disagreed then with

15 him, and I disagree still with him.

16 Q. I am going to put very simple and short questions to you. We are

17 not talking about opinions here. We are talking about facts. An incident

18 occurred and you used the word "Nazi practices" for that. Yes or no?

19 A. Yes. I used the word to my colleague van Duijn.

20 Q. There was a discussion after that with the Serb soldiers.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I think this needs a little bit

22 of a clarification. Do I read your answer well, if I understand it that

23 you're stating to us, that you -- when you used the words "Nazi

24 practices," you're addressing your colleague van Duijn and no one else?

25 THE WITNESS: I'm addressing to my colleague van Duijn, because I

Page 4938

1 was speaking to my Dutch colleague about it. The so-called Captain Mane

2 was standing near us. That was the situation at that moment, yes. And he

3 could have heard that, that's for sure.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That was going to be my next question, whether any

5 of the Serb military there could have heard -- okay. But were you aware

6 of any reaction at the time? Was there a reaction when you use the term

7 "Nazi practices," was there a reaction from any of the Serbs?

8 THE WITNESS: There was no direct reaction. The reaction that

9 I've heard a few minutes later came from the Lieutenant van Duijn himself,

10 and I discussed that with the Colonel Doctor, who was also there in the

11 neighbourhood, Creemer. And I said to him, "What's this kind of

12 situation?" And we talked about that. So that was in fact what happened.

13 But the operation of moving of the deportation of the refugees, in fact,

14 never stopped.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think that clears up a few things, yes.

16 Mr. Lazarevic, how much more do you have? How much longer?

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Not more than ten minutes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. On the basis of the answers that you gave to His Honour, the

21 Presiding Judge, you are stating that there was no interruption in the

22 evacuation that went on for about an hour?

23 A. Not to my sight. There was no real stop of the evacuation, no.

24 Q. But very soon, after this incident occurred, when you used the

25 words "Nazi practices," you went away from there, right? Just after that.

Page 4939

1 A. Only 50 or a 100 metres, and I spoke with the Colonel Dr.

2 Creemer. But I was still watching the line of buses; and still, the work

3 was going on.

4 Q. Can you confirm that the task of the members of DutchBat in the

5 evacuation of refugees from Potocari was to separate groups of refugees,

6 from the masses that were there, into smaller groups of 50 to 60 persons

7 and to check who wanted to go to Srebrenica and who wanted to stay?

8 A. No, I cannot confirm that.

9 Q. Now I would like to have V004417 displayed, from --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the minutes for

11 the video clip.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just have a look at this.

13 [In English] V004417.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I think we should play it again.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Q. I assume that you recognised some of the persons in this video

19 clip?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Captain Mane, right?

22 A. Yes. On his back, yes.

23 Q. Mr. Van Duijn?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the interpreter, Miki. And you heard just now, and you saw

Page 4940

1 the subtitles, the translation of what Captain Mane is saying to Mr. Van

2 Duijn, or, rather, what he is saying to the interpreter Miki to tell van

3 Duijn in English, that the Dutch Battalion should go amongst the refugees

4 and to see who wants to leave, and that that was their job?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

6 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I respectfully there is no foundation

7 for the conclusion that's embedded in that question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, don't you think that Mr. Thayer

9 is correct? If Mane is saying that, it doesn't mean to say that that was

10 so. I mean --

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, of course not. But on the other hand, I was

12 about to ask the witness whether that's his view, too, after seeing this

13 footage.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You have already asked the witness, and the witness

15 has already given you an answer.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, but that was before he saw.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And you think the witness is going to change his

18 list mind because Mane ten, 11 years ago, maintained that that was the

19 role of the DutchBat? You are in an optimistic mood today.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, maybe because it's Monday, but --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are usually indulgent on Monday and you are

22 optimistic, so that should work. Yes, let's proceed, Mr. Lazarevic. I

23 think you can move to the next question.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: There are just a few more questions.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Major Rutten, I would like to put a few more

Page 4941

1 questions to you in relation to the evacuation of refugees. Do you know

2 that on the 11th of July 1995, in the evening hours, a meeting was held at

3 the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac between General Mladic and Mr. Karremans,

4 your commander? Do you know that that happened?

5 A. We heard about that, yes.

6 Q. Did you have occasion -- well, I know that you did not attend the

7 meeting, but did you have occasion to see the footage of that meeting that

8 was attended by Major Karremans and Mr. Boering on your side and Mladic is

9 there and some other Serb officers? Did you have occasion to see that

10 footage?

11 A. I saw that footage years later, yeah.

12 Q. And on that video footage, which does exist and which was

13 transcribed, one can clearly hear what the two of them are saying. I'm

14 talking about Karremans and Mladic. Can you confirm that that meeting was

15 held at the request of Colonel Karremans?

16 A. I cannot confirm that, because I was not in the chain of command

17 then by the Colonel Karremans.

18 Q. Do you know perhaps who was the first to raise the question of the

19 evacuation of refugees from Srebrenica?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know whether any agreement was reached there in Bratunac,

22 on the 11th of July, in the Fontana Hotel?

23 A. If I give an answer to that, then is it based on the footage that

24 I saw years later, as I just explained to you.

25 Q. Then I don't wish to insist on that answer. However, at any rate,

Page 4942

1 one more question in relation to this: Do you know who provided the fuel

2 for the transportation of refugees from Potocari to Kladanj?

3 A. The fuel came from DutchBat because it was ordered, I heard later.

4 Q. Precisely. I assume that General Mladic could not order the

5 DutchBat to issue fuel. Would you agree?

6 A. That's your conclusion from here in this courtroom in a safe

7 environment. There, there was a typical psychological warfare going on,

8 if you see the footage more closely. Even after years, you can feel that

9 tension that was in that room. So if you're asking my opinion now or if I

10 agree on that, I would say that they -- General Mladic was clearly in

11 control; and if he could not order it, he had the psychological power to

12 order it.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, please allow me to intervene here.

14 Previously, you were asked a question by Mr. Lazarevic, "Do you

15 know who provided the fuel for the transportation of refugees from

16 Potocari to Kladanj?" And your answer was, "The fuel came from DutchBat

17 because it was ordered. This is what we have -- I heard later." This is

18 what we have in the transcript.

19 When you say because it was ordered, I heard later, ordered by

20 whom.

21 THE WITNESS: By Mladic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Madam Fauveau, we'll have a break in

Page 4943

1 six minutes' time. You can either start now or we can break now,

2 whichever you prefer.

3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I will do so when the Chamber starts

4 again.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's have a break.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I correct what I

7 said. I said I will do what the Chamber wishes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I heard you say, but then -- oh, yes,

9 okay. No problem. Yes, Mr. Thayer?

10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, given the hour of the day and given

11 our restriction on being able to have any contact with Major Rutten once

12 he's begun testifying, I'm not sure if the estimates for cross-examination

13 are holding. If they are, then I don't believe we'll be able to finish

14 with his testimony today.

15 And I would -- I have no idea whether Major Rutten is available to

16 return tomorrow or any other day in the month of December. So perhaps an

17 inquiry through the witness unit might be appropriate. I just wanted to

18 raise that issue.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Madam Fauveau, how much do

20 you think you're cross-examination will require.

21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Between 30 and 40 minutes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And are you cross-examining the witness? You are?

23 And how long do you require?

24 MR. JOSSE: We were first, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, all right. And the Pandurevic?

Page 4944

1 MR. HAYNES: I think I will follow Ms. Condon, who will conduct a

2 rather more substantial cross-examination than I, because this witness

3 affects her client rather more than mine, but I will only be 20, 30

4 minutes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can say we will finish with this witness.

6 MR. HAYNES: I think you better check with Ms. Condon first.


8 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, I indicated last week, I think, two

9 hours. I think you appreciate why it has to be that.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. No, no. I mean we've told you straight

11 and plain that we were not going to limit you particularly in this case

12 with this witness, you and the Borovcanin. So we need two hours plus

13 another hour, three hours.

14 Major, I was too optimistic. I think you need to make

15 arrangements for tomorrow.

16 THE WITNESS: It won't be possible, sir. Tomorrow I'm not

17 available, so I have to attend to another meeting. I'm still working and,

18 I have to do something on my work as well. And tomorrow, it can't be

19 skipped tomorrow.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And when -- let's see. Let's have contact with the

21 victims and witnesses unit, and you will give us information as to your

22 availability; and then we'll decide perhaps, I don't know, we'll have a

23 full hour and a half after the break. Maybe you can try to finish your

24 cross-examination in an hour and a half, with the hope that maybe Madam

25 Fauveau and Mr. Haynes might think it over and opt for not cross-examining

Page 4945

1 this witness. I'm not suggesting. I'm just thinking aloud, but see

2 amongst yourselves a little bit. I think if you make an effort you can

3 finish in an hour and a half, but it's up to you. I don't mean to stop

4 you.

5 So 25-minute break.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.42 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see Ms. Condon standing.

9 MS. CONDON: We changed the order, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Condon, you may proceed.

11 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examination by Ms. Condon:

13 Q. Major Rutten, I'm going to do my best to conclude my

14 cross-examination of you today, but with the best aim in the world we'll

15 see how we go.

16 I want to ask you some questions about the preparation that you

17 had for your mission to Srebrenica. I recall in your evidence to the van

18 Kemenade inquiry that your view was that you had adequate preparation for

19 the mission; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. Can you tell me the length of the time that you had to prepare,

22 how long did the preparation go for?

23 A. We started in autumn, around September, with the first exercise,

24 and it went on until the second week of December.

25 Q. And above and beyond that preparation that you received, you

Page 4946

1 yourself had done some reading on your own, is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. And what was that?

4 A. Just preparing what was happening in former Yugoslavia, how the

5 conflict -- the background of the conflict, articles on persons concerning

6 that conflict, some books. I read, for instance, Bridge Over Tara. Just

7 to get a scope of the environment and the conflict itself.

8 Q. So, obviously, it would be important for you to inform yourself as

9 much as possible prior to arrival there, is that fair comment?

10 A. Yeah. That's a fair comment. It's now standard operation at this

11 moment, to prepare soldiers for the culture where they go into for

12 missions abroad.

13 Q. Did you, as a result of your own reading that you did, did you

14 form some impressions as to what to expect?

15 A. No, not really. Because I read different kinds of sides of the

16 story, and I read also the Saturday News is a lot of paper work with

17 background on the conflict. But also from different kinds of view on

18 different persons from different countries, we have a well-organised,

19 yeah, daily paper here in Holland. And there is a lot of magazines; there

20 is a lot to read on that subject, was there already then, yeah.

21 Q. In particular, though, I recall you, in your evidence to the

22 parliamentary inquiry, making a comment that you had formed an impression

23 in your own mind about what to expect in enclaves, insofar as what Serbs

24 had been doing, is that fair?

25 A. That's fair to say.

Page 4947

1 Q. And can I ask you this? Did you, prior to arrival in Srebrenica,

2 did you have a view of Serbs?

3 A. No, not as a group. More about the situation they were in.

4 Q. Okay. All right. So you would say that prior to arrival, your

5 mind set was utterly neutral, insofar as Serbs were concerned?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What about when you're on the ground? Did that change?

8 A. We tried to hold up our impartiality.

9 Q. Can I just interrupt you there?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Because impartiality was the key to the DutchBat's mission, wasn't

12 it?

13 A. Yes, sure.

14 Q. Essential to your role --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- was to be neutral, impartial?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Sorry, I interrupted you?

19 A. But we were also human beings so there still -- there happens

20 daily business on either side, which influence you. It's normal, I

21 think. But we spoke that through, in the company, as well as with the

22 battalion, and, yeah, we tried to keep up our impartiality, yeah.

23 Q. But you seem to be conceding that that it was often very

24 difficult?

25 A. Yes. Very difficult, yes.

Page 4948

1 Q. And in particular, I recall an incident that you talked about in

2 the van - just tell me am I getting the pronunciation wrong with my

3 Australian accent - the Kemenade inquiry; is that right?

4 A. The Kemenade, yes.

5 Q. But you recalled an incident, in the context of that conflict with

6 Lieutenant van Duijn, where you had kicked a couple of heavily armed Serb

7 soldiers for no reason other than to show that you didn't like them, that

8 that was what you said to the van --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

10 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if there is going to be a quote like

11 that coming from counsel, I'd appreciate the witness being shown that

12 exact, alleged statement.

13 MS. CONDON: I will, Your Honour, certainly.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed.

15 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, this is from a document that's been

16 recently added to the -- it's 3D49. This is the document that was the

17 subject of the delayed translation. And I'll take you to the reference.

18 Okay. This is at page 26 of 3D49, please. Sorry? Is it 3D50, is it?

19 Sorry, my mistake. Okay. So the Dutch version -- so if we could have the

20 English version, put up, please? Is it not on the system? It hasn't been

21 uploaded?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. All right. So is it on Sanction? No.

23 MS. CONDON: Perhaps I can.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have a hard copy?

25 MS. CONDON: I have a hard copy.

Page 4949

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can keep yours, and I'm sure the

2 Prosecution will --

3 MS. CONDON: Because mine is marked, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's one reason. I'm told by my colleague --

5 JUDGE KWON: If it is 3D50, we have it in e-court.

6 MS. CONDON: You do. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Judge

7 Kwon.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's get 3D50, please, loaded.

9 MS. CONDON: All right. All right. Here we are. We have it in

10 English on the left, so page 26 in the English version.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have to work within the limitations that

12 we have.

13 MS. CONDON: It does not correspond with my page 26, Your Honour,

14 that I'm reading from.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me see, because I --

16 MS. CONDON: Perhaps page 27. I think it's the next page. If we

17 go to page 27, the passage should be there. Yes, there it is.

18 Q. Now, if you have that in front of you, Major?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you'll see that there is a paragraph that begins, "Last week

21 Koster told me about something I did." Do you see that there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you like me to read it out?

24 A. No. No, I can read it myself.

25 Q. Which I don't remember. So that refreshes your memory as to that

Page 4950

1 incident having occurred?

2 A. Yes. That occurred, yeah.

3 Q. And that's correct, that you did -- well, to be fair to you what

4 you said was you did it for two reasons; that you did it simply to let

5 them know you didn't like them, number 1, is that fair?

6 A. That's fair to say.

7 Q. And, secondly, to send a message in relation to the stretchers?

8 A. Yeah. The message it was more related on -- in the situation that

9 was really -- that we were facing there. There were two men, armed,

10 sitting on stretchers, walking around, observing what was happening,

11 sitting on a stretcher, what we could easily use for other means. So that

12 was the situation. And if you asking me now, again, is that like or like

13 not, it has more to do with the situation itself, at this moment.

14 At that specific moment, when something happens, what you're

15 seeing and that image does something with you, so that is what actually

16 happened on the spot. But at the other hand, and that -- I had also a lot

17 of conversations with other Serb soldiers. And they told me where they

18 came from, where they -- what their family was. Some of them told that

19 they had family in Holland, as a refugee, and so and so on. So the same

20 imposed situation as on the Muslim side. So there was no up-front

21 problems from my side with the Serbs as a group. If you -- if you would

22 have asked me that question, yes, I would have answered that, yes.

23 Q. Can I ask you about the preparation in terms of your roles as an

24 intelligence officer, you going over there. I'm not asking you about the

25 tasks themselves, that you were given, but can I ask you this general

Page 4951

1 question? No doubt you were given specific instructions as to the tasks

2 you were expected to perform as an intelligence officer; is that correct?

3 A. I was more or less an intelligence officer from the battalion

4 through the company. So I'm not an intelligence officer by profession, so

5 that means something else.

6 Q. Right. But prior to your arriving in Srebrenica, was that an

7 expectation, that you would play that role in the battalion?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. It was, yes? So in the course of that expectation, which is what

10 I'm asking you, were there specific instructions, tasks that you were

11 given in order to pursue that role?

12 A. The specific task was to be a liaison on intelligence matters to

13 the battalion -- from the battalion to the company, yes.

14 Q. And no doubt that would have entailed being given names of certain

15 officers that you may expect to come into contact with from both sides?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that right?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. And obviously, it stands to reason, particularly, names of

20 officers that would be performing intelligence functions; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you -- this is prior to arrival. Were you shown any images

23 or photos of any persons that you may be expected to come into contact

24 with?

25 A. Not prior to the mission, no.

Page 4952

1 Q. Not at all?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Let me take you to after the mission. Now, we've

4 already established that you were subject to a number of debriefings,

5 that's correct?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. You had some complaints in terms of the completeness of that

8 process, is that a fair assessment from -- of your evidence?

9 A. From the debriefing statement at Assen, yes.

10 Q. And also I think you raised some issues with my learned friend

11 Mr. Josse last week about the Zagreb debriefing as well that was similarly

12 inadequate?

13 A. You're correct, yes.

14 Q. Now, you were interviewed for the NIOD report; is that correct?

15 A. That's also correct, yes.

16 Q. You gave evidence in front of the parliamentary inquiry in 2000?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And you gave a statement in 1995 for the -- what's known as the

19 Kodak team; is that correct?

20 A. That's also correct.

21 Q. Now, you also indicate in the van Kemenade inquiry, you make

22 reference to a management report, do you know what I'm referring to?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell me about that, please? That's something that you

25 gave a specific statement in relation to, is it?

Page 4953

1 A. Yeah. It was in the inquiry from the Kodak team. I was asked

2 to -- if I had seen something that could have been subject to a -- to a

3 criminal or other offences that could have happened within the battalion

4 or someone connected to the battalion. And I refused to do that because I

5 would be putting my colleagues in severe problems, but I said it's good to

6 have it investigated.

7 So put it in another kind of report, but not in an official

8 statement that means that they can be prosecuted. Because it was war at

9 that time, so that we have a different situation, and it's good for the

10 organisation, as well as for the person themselves, that it -- that it has

11 been or becomes investigated later on. So that was the meaning of the

12 management report.

13 Q. Okay. And when did that report -- when was that report released,

14 what year?

15 A. I don't know because the report was drawn up by that Kodak team of

16 the police, the military police. I never got a copy of that report.

17 Later on, in 1998, I remember I saw the first copy of that report, yes.

18 Q. And this was a report that you say was directed to the potential

19 investigation of other members of the DutchBat for criminal activities

20 that may or may -- that they may be responsible for while in Srebrenica

21 and Potocari?

22 A. Possible, yes. Possible criminal activities, yes.

23 Q. And you were, as you said, very guarded about giving a full

24 account in the context of that report, because you didn't want to

25 incriminate your colleagues; is that correct?

Page 4954

1 A. Yeah, that is correct, yes.

2 Q. Now, in each of these processes that I've just taken you through;

3 the debriefing -- well, perhaps I'll start with the debriefing in

4 particular. In any of the debriefings that you were subject to by the

5 Ministry of Defence, were you shown photos of -- well, were you shown

6 photos of people that you had come into contact with in Potocari and

7 Srebrenica?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No? Were you not asked to provide, in those debriefings, any

10 information that you had gleaned as a result of being an intelligence

11 officer?

12 A. Yes,. I was asked to, but the problem was we had almost no photos

13 whatsoever. We had a very poor intelligence situation there with the

14 battalion, yes.

15 Q. But, I mean, you would agree, because I think you even make a

16 reference to it in your -- in the parliamentary inquiry, that even while

17 were you still in Potocari, you were watching Dutch television?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You would recall that incident where you're watching Dutch

20 television?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. And you saw General Mladic on television with the scene at

23 Potocari. So there were certainly media reports that you saw while you

24 were still at Potocari; is that correct?

25 A. That is correct, yes.

Page 4955

1 Q. And no doubt, when you returned back to Holland, you saw an

2 enormous amount of media footage in relation to the fall of Srebrenica; is

3 that correct?

4 A. That's also correct, yes.

5 Q. And you -- perhaps, I better ask you this: What about in the

6 debriefing --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you ask him, slow down a little bit, please,

8 between question and answer and a short pause, okay? Because we are

9 escalating slowly. I mean surely --

10 MS. CONDON: I'm getting a little bit excited, Your Honour. I'll

11 calm down.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


14 Q. Let me ask you this: In these debriefing sessions, you've said

15 you weren't shown any photos. What about video footage?

16 A. No. We haven't seen video footage during the debriefing in Assen,

17 no.

18 Q. Nothing?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Yet, as you've agreed, there was certainly an enormous amount of

21 footage available just from watching the television at that time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the Dutch Ministry of Defence didn't use that footage when

24 they debriefed you?

25 A. It's on their account if they didn't use it, so...

Page 4956

1 Q. All right. But you agree that you were in fact requested to

2 provide information in relation to the intelligence that you gathered from

3 your time in Srebrenica, to the Dutch Ministry of Defence?

4 A. There were no specific questions, as I remember, on specific

5 intelligence matters themselves, as names, as -- if we had photos. It's

6 quite typical because -- but I stated before, we had our own question

7 marks at that debriefing in Assen. So you can imagine why I had those

8 question marks.

9 Q. So you say that was a flaw, again, in the process of debriefing,

10 that that information wasn't provided?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Yeah. All right. Naturally, though, it is information that you

13 would expect to be provided, is it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Yeah? All right. Now, I want to take you to your role as an

16 intelligence officer while you were actually at Potocari. Now, I assume,

17 Major Rutten, you're not able to speak B/C/S?

18 A. B/C/S means?

19 Q. Bosnian, Serbo --

20 A. No.

21 Q. No? How was it that you communicated with, in particular, the

22 leaders of the BiH that you dealt with?

23 A. Mostly in German. The German language, they knew quite well, and

24 we are -- Holland as -- is known about its languages as German and English

25 as well, and sometimes French. And we can communicate quite well in that

Page 4957

1 languages.

2 Q. Did you -- you did not use interpreters at all when you were

3 dealing with those people?

4 A. We did use them, but not always.

5 Q. All right. And in particular, you have identified in relation to

6 the northern part of the enclave which was your responsibility, you've

7 identified two particular leaders that you dealt with?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yes? And they were -- do you recall their names?

10 A. Mandzic, I think, and the other one I don't know right now.

11 Q. Sabanovic?

12 A. Yes, Sabanovic.

13 Q. Tell me, when you met with these individuals, where did those

14 meetings take place?

15 A. Mostly in a house in Potocari.

16 Q. All right. That's the answer I'm looking for. I take it, then,

17 that if I were to show you a map of Potocari, you would be able to mark on

18 that map where -- you could at least try?

19 A. I'll try it.

20 Q. Yeah?

21 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, if 65 ter number P1522, which is an

22 aerial of Potocari, could be shown to the witness, please?

23 Q. Do you have that in front of you, Major?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Perhaps if some assistance could be provided in terms of marking

Page 4958

1 the map?

2 A. Yes. But on this map, the house, it was further on down the

3 road. And it's not on this map.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to point that out myself.

5 MS. CONDON: All right. I'll try another one. I've got a number

6 here to offer the witness. Perhaps, if we could bring up P02103, photo

7 number 6, and see if that gives you a better perspective. P02103, photo

8 number 6.

9 Q. Is that --

10 A. No. It's not on this photo as well.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you referring to a site which would be further

12 up from the petrol station?

13 THE WITNESS: Towards Srebrenica. It's more -- it's in fact the

14 situation where we are in fact village Srebrenica -- of Potocari; and

15 here, it's marked out the compound and further down the road, the bus

16 remise or compound. It's much higher, on higher ground to Srebrenica.


18 Q. Well, unfortunately, I don't think we have --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: There are maps, perhaps one of the assistants could

20 or the Prosecution could assist us there. We have seen maps that more or

21 less show us an aerial view of the area where this site would be located.

22 In the meantime, let's move ahead.

23 MS. CONDON: I can move on, Your Honour, and we can --

24 Q. Now, in relays to this house that you're talking about, how would

25 you -- was it what you considered to be a headquarters of the BiH that was

Page 4959

1 being used for that purpose, or --

2 A. No, no. It was a normal house where he lived himself, Mandzic, I

3 mean, with his wife. And his wife worked also on the compound as a

4 laundry woman.

5 Q. Well, what about your knowledge of any buildings that were used in

6 Potocari as a command for the BiH? Were you aware of that, that there was

7 such a building?

8 A. No. Not by my knowledge, no.

9 Q. So as far as you were concerned, they just simply had no command

10 or headquarters in Potocari?

11 A. We entered once -- we tried to enter once a house which we marked

12 out as a form of a headquarters, but they regularly moved it to another

13 building. So it's difficult to establish whether -- what was the actual

14 HQ of the BiH; and, therefore, we -- and we also didn't have the authority

15 to go into those buildings by ourselves.

16 Q. But you --

17 A. It was not --

18 Q. Sorry?

19 A. -- within the mandate, if you know what I mean.

20 Q. I appreciate that. But you've just indicated at least in

21 pursuance of your role as an intelligence officer, you had made that

22 assessment, that there was, in fact, something that was used as a kind of

23 headquarters?

24 A. Yes. But I just explained you, it regularly moved. So you

25 couldn't establish really where they were active at all time at the same

Page 4960

1 point. So there was no reason for us to have an overview or a direct look

2 constantly on the house, because we weren't aware of the situation that

3 which group moved to where to or whatever. And we at that time, from

4 April on, we hadn't enough personnel to move all those locations because,

5 yeah, our Serb friends didn't let in our colleagues any more in the

6 enclave who were on leave.

7 Q. What about your knowledge of the state of the BiH armaments?

8 A. We had a weapon collection point in Srebrenica.

9 Q. Yes?

10 A. And the Bravo compound, there were some larger material and some

11 small arm weapons. I regularly saw that BiH soldiers were carrying

12 weapons during my patrolling, but they --

13 Q. Can I just stop you? What sort of weapons were they carrying?

14 A. Small arms weapons.

15 Q. Because I just remind you of something you said at the Krstic

16 trial. This is at page 2166, Your Honour, line 7 to 15. What you said

17 was, "What I've seen of the BiH was that they had small armaments, partly

18 and light mortars. That was the only thing I've ever seen by the BiH and

19 some RPGs, that is an anti-tank weapon and that's it." That's right?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. That's correct? And then you went on to say, "And they had almost

22 no ammunition," right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now I want to direct your mind to that statement. Had you, in the

25 course of your role as an intelligence officer, specifically sought to

Page 4961

1 discover what the state of the BiH's ammunition was?

2 A. We got the reports from the patrolling, and what we saw or what we

3 could indicate gave us the attention that there wasn't that much

4 ammunition, as well as our colleague in the south. And that was the

5 Captain Groen of the Bravo Company had also given us information that

6 there was a very poor situation on the BiH side on the ammunition, yes.

7 Q. But you just indicated yourself that it was often very difficult

8 to make those complete assessments as to that sort of -- the state of what

9 their ammunition was. Would you agree with that?

10 A. Yes, because --

11 Q. Difficult to know, in the same way it was difficult to know which

12 how was being used as headquarters, because they would be changing it?

13 A. Yes, you're correct.

14 Q. You also assessed these two men that you dealt with as quiet and

15 professional. They were your words. You accept that's what you said in

16 your Assen debriefing?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Professional, I take it that your assessment was that they were

19 professional army men in the manner in which they conducted themselves?

20 A. No. The way they handled their situation, in the enclave. That

21 was what I meant with professional. And also, professional was the way

22 they assessed our situation, because they also -- they did the same what

23 we did with them. They assessed our situation, and he perfectly, he, Mr.

24 Mandzic, perfectly drew out our patrolling. And he said, "I can exactly

25 see which patrolling is from Bravo or from Charlie Company." So he gave us

Page 4962

1 a quite clear view on our situation as well.

2 Q. You understood each other?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Because you then went on to say that it was easy to make effective

5 agreements with them and contacts were smooth; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yeah. Is it fair to say that you preferred to deal with them than

8 dealing with your contacts on the Serbian side?

9 A. No. Because the contacts that we had on the Serbian side were

10 more on the level of the battalion, the S5 group of the battalion with,

11 for instance, the Major Boering.

12 Q. The liaison side?

13 A. Yes, the liaison team, yes.

14 Q. Let me ask you then about your contacts with the Serbian officer

15 that you did, who did you have contact with?

16 A. The only ones that I have contact with were the ones that is I met

17 near OP Papa.

18 Q. Right. That was, what, near Yellow Bridge, around that area?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who was that?

21 A. Jovic.

22 Q. That's it?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. And was that limited contact that you had with --

25 A. Yes, very limited.

Page 4963

1 Q. All right. I want to take you to the 13th of July, Major, and the

2 sequence of events on that day. Now, you've already been cross-examined

3 quite extensively about your movements on that day, and I don't propose to

4 take you through exactly what you did all day. But I do want you to start

5 with -- you were the duty officer on that morning; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Now, as I understand it, being the duty officer entails being in

10 the operations room; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, being in the operations room of the Charlie Company.

12 Q. And that normally entails being there all day?

13 A. No, not all day. A few hours, and then there is a the next one is

14 coming up.

15 Q. All right. So when did you start that morning being duty officer?

16 A. Early in the morning.

17 Q. Can you give me a time?

18 A. 7.00, 8.00. Must have been 7.00 or 8.00.

19 Q. How long did that last for?

20 A. It's difficult, yeah, in the -- until a few hours later in the

21 morning.

22 Q. All right. Then what your evidence has been is that the next

23 thing you do is go to the "White House," is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Can you give me a time that you first went to the "White House" on

Page 4964

1 this day?

2 A. Must have been sometime before noon, I think, yes.

3 Q. All right. Can you -- you've already indicated in your evidence

4 that you went inside the house that day. This is on the first occasion;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Yeah? Did you take photos on this first occasion?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No photos on the first occasion?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Right. That you spoke to some of the Dutch soldiers that were

14 outside on the first occasion; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yeah? How long would you say that you spent at the "White House"

17 on this first time on that day?

18 A. I can only give you an estimation.

19 Q. That's all right.

20 A. Three-quarters of an hour.

21 Q. All right. What was the next thing that you did after that?

22 A. We went towards the APC blockade, yeah.

23 Q. All right. That -- and who did you speak to at the blockade?

24 A. Some colleagues.

25 Q. Can you indicate who?

Page 4965

1 A. Yes, a few NCOs, they were in my previous platoons, spoke about

2 it. They were on the APCs and had various talks with colleagues. So it's

3 difficult to indicate every thing that --

4 Q. I appreciate that. Is that where you heard the rumour in relation

5 to the dead bodies?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yeah? If -- just reminding you of something that you said in the

8 parliamentary inquiry, that you said it was about noon that you heard the

9 rumour in relation to the dead bodies, does that sound correct?

10 A. Yeah, that sounds correct.

11 Q. As you've already given evidence you then went on foot the to the

12 place where the bodies were alleged to be; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. How long did it take you to arrive at that location?

15 A. Fifteen minutes.

16 Q. How long were you actually at the location where you found the

17 bodies?

18 A. Five minutes or more.

19 Q. All right?

20 A. Somewhat -- it's difficult to say now. It's a rough estimate.

21 Q. And you then returned once back to the compound, back to the

22 operations room; is that right?

23 A. No. We stayed on the -- we went through the blockade as we came

24 back, and I spoke to the Lieutenant Colonel Karremans on the road. And I

25 didn't went directly back, but later on I went back and to inform my

Page 4966

1 company commander as well what I've seen during my visit to that meadow.

2 Q. All right. I want to ask you about your report to Colonel

3 Karremans about this. What you said was he gave a half hearted response;

4 is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you yourself had some fairly negative views in relation to

7 your battalion commander; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Yeah? You described him as a -- as dictatorial in his leadership

10 style; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. You perceived him to be a remote figure, when I say that there was

13 a complaint that he only visited the OPs I think once and he did it in one

14 day, is that right?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. He was responsible for thoughtless comments?

17 A. Yes, also correct.

18 Q. Were those thoughtless comments in relation to what was going on

19 in the ground around Potocari on those days?

20 A. But also what happened earlier. My colleagues were looking for a

21 sense of leadership, and we were missing that sense of leadership. And

22 this is the thing, you could say, about the Lieutenant Colonel Karremans.

23 Q. What about Major Franken? Was it fair to say that the day to day

24 leadership was in his hands?

25 A. It's fair to say.

Page 4967

1 Q. Yeah? Now, just in relation to going back to Colonel Karremans,

2 you have a specific recollection of seeing him on the 13th of July, don't

3 you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you saw him with General Mladic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you say that they were having a conversation at the entrance

8 of the compound?

9 A. That's also correct.

10 Q. Now, again, I'm going to test your powers of memory, but can you

11 give me a time frame as to when you say this conversation was occurring?

12 A. Later in the afternoon, but I -- it's very difficult to say now.

13 Q. Can I ask you this? Was it before or after you had been to the

14 "White House" for a second time?

15 A. After.

16 Q. It was after?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. We'll get to your movements later in that day. So

19 what you say about this conversation between General Mladic and Colonel

20 Karremans is that you gleaned from the topic of the conversation that it

21 was in relation to an inspection of the compound that night; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yeah? And as far as you're aware, did that inspection occur on

25 the night of the 13th of July?

Page 4968

1 A. Yes, there was an inspection of the compound.

2 Q. And that was an inspection by General Mladic, was it?

3 A. No. He wasn't on the compound himself.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. It were other Serbian colleagues.

6 Q. And that was an inspection that was carried out with those Serbian

7 colleagues and Colonel Karremans, was it?

8 A. No. Not with Karremans, with the Major Franken.

9 Q. All right. Now, we digressed a little about your views of the

10 leadership of the battalion. Once you had made the complaint to Colonel

11 Karremans, you then made another complaint to your company commander; is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yeah? And then you went to the blocking positions again?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And this is the time at which you had the conflict with

17 Lieutenant van Duijn; is that correct?

18 A. That's also correct.

19 Q. Again, can you give me some indication of what time that was that

20 the conflict with Lieutenant van Duijn occurred?

21 A. Also in that afternoon.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And I don't want to labour this conflict that you had with

25 him. But it's fair to say, isn't it, that you left the scene, because of

Page 4969

1 the extent of the disagreement that you had with him, with Colonel

2 Creemer, I think it is, is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You left with him, I mean with Colonel Creemer?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you returned to the compound?

7 A. No.

8 Q. No?

9 A. Not directly.

10 Q. Not directly. All right. Where did you go after you left --

11 after you'd had the conflict with van Duijn?

12 A. We stayed on the road somewhat further down the line towards the

13 entrance of the compound , and I talked with the Colonel Creemer about

14 the situation.

15 Q. Did he have to calm -- he had to calm you down a little bit, is

16 that fair. I'm not being facetious saying you got emotional. I'm just

17 saying, as I understand it, you had to be calmed down?

18 A. I doubt that, but okay.

19 Q. At what point did you then go back to the "White House?" This is

20 for a second time.

21 A. After I went on the compound, because I had a driver with a jeep

22 being ready at the compound to escort the convoy.

23 Q. Now your driver's name?

24 A. Verbugt.

25 Q. Verbugt?

Page 4970

1 A. Verbugt. It's a difficult language, I know.

2 Q. All right. And again, I do want to take you through the detail of

3 your movements at the "White House" on the second occasion. And I'm

4 reading from your summary, your evidence in Krstic. Okay? But what you

5 said is you said to your driver, as you were waiting for the last buses to

6 leave, "It's good to get some witnesses. You come with me to the "White

7 House." Is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. So just you and him went on your own at that stage; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Now, when you arrived there, you saw the two Dutch soldiers that

13 had been stationed outside there, is that right?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. Did you see -- was there -- Major De Haan, was he there as well at

16 this stage on the second time?

17 A. No.

18 Q. No? And what you've indicated is, first of all, you walked around

19 the house; is that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. So you walked around the perimeter of the house, that's the first

22 thing you did?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. With him, with your driver?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4971

1 Q. Okay. Then you say that you went to the side that was empty that

2 same morning. Okay, which side of the house?

3 A. If you're standing in front of the house, the left-hand side.

4 Q. All right. You say there were two Bosnian Serb soldiers on the

5 staircase?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you say staircase, is if the house was in fact open, so you

8 could see the staircase inside; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it was partly open.

10 Q. Yeah. Then you say the staircase was filled up with Muslim men,

11 and you say the moment you came around the corner of the house. Now, can

12 you describe that a bit for me, what do you mean by that?

13 A. If you're standing in front of the house, it's at the left-hand

14 side; and if you're walking along the front side of the house, then you

15 get on your right-hand side the corner, and then you see the staircase as

16 well.

17 Q. All right. And then you have a specific recollection of Bosnian

18 Serb soldiers with money and deutschmarks; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you say they stopped doing that when you arrived?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Then you say you walked around the house, I presume you

23 then go to the front of the of the house?

24 A. We went at the back side first.

25 Q. But then well you've gone on to say in the front of the house,

Page 4972

1 there was a balcony that was filled up with refugees?

2 A. Yes, okay.

3 Q. So I presume you're at the front of the house at this stage?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. And you observed that it was completely filled up?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, from that first moment of walking to the house

8 with your driver, and that point when you're at the front of the house,

9 what period of time -- again, I'm going to have to be as -- I appreciate

10 it's difficult, but just give me an estimate. How long did that process

11 take?

12 A. Fifteen minutes.

13 Q. Fifteen minutes?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. All right. Did you speak to anybody at that -- during that

16 process, did you?

17 A. I spoke to the two soldiers.

18 Q. The Dutch soldiers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes?

21 A. Who were telling me about transferring the deutschmarks, so I

22 tried to have a look at myself whether that happened or not. I tried --

23 yeah, I spoke some -- I think two Serb soldiers shortly.

24 Q. But you're not entirely sure about that recollection, is that --

25 right?

Page 4973

1 A. Yes. But the problem is a lot of people around and it's happening

2 -- a lot of things at the same time.

3 Q. You have a lot on your mind?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Of course. So what you then say is you went back to the entrance

6 of the compound; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. So that's, as we know from the photo, that's across the

9 road from the "White House." And you spoke to Rave and a Dutch Major to

10 try and get the men out; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Is that right?

13 A. Yes, right.

14 Q. Okay. Now, I -- did you, after going back to the entrance of the

15 compound and speaking to Rave, did you at any stage go back to the "White

16 House?"

17 A. No.

18 Q. No? You're in -- you're sure about that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. I'd like to clarify two things with you, Major. The

21 first is - and you were cross-examined about this quite extensively last

22 week by my learned friend Mr. Ostojic - and you were asked about that

23 portion of your statement, this is 3D37, at page 4, where you were asked

24 about that assertion that you had gone to one of the Serbian leaders and

25 told him that he ought to arrange something for the evacuation of the

Page 4974

1 Muslim men. You recall that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yes. And when you were cross-examined by -- on it by my learned

4 friend. You accepted that that was in fact what had happened. You had

5 gone to a Serbian leader to speak to him that; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I want to take you to 3D41, at page 18, and if you can --

8 this is your -- this is the statement that you gave to the Kodak team.

9 And, well, perhaps to be fair to you in terms of context, if -- if we can

10 begin on page 17.

11 Thank you, Madam Usher.

12 You'll see there is a reference there to the paragraph that

13 begins,"The Dutch soldiers present asked whether we ought to talk to

14 someone about the transport for these men." Can you see that, at the

15 bottom of the page?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes? And then, if we go to the next page, please, at the top. So

18 page 18, it says -- you see that there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. "We arranged for transport by buses together with Sergeant Major

21 Raven of intelligence." Now, can you clarify for me, please, which is

22 correct? Did you arrange for the transport?

23 A. No.

24 Q. No? So that's incorrect?

25 A. That's incorrect. We, as stated last week also, "we" means Rave

Page 4975

1 and De Haan. We spoke about it, as mentioned, and the situation was that

2 we asked, in fact, or I did, the UNMOs to try to contact the Serbs to do

3 something about the situation. And last week I, as I recall it, I said

4 that the situation was that we weren't in control but, in fact, the Serbs

5 were. So the moment that we tried to ask for it, the buses were already

6 on the way because it happened shortly afterwards.

7 So that was the reason that I, last week, rose that question that

8 I said, "Yeah." In fact, we were asking it, but it was already planned

9 that the house would be emptied by the -- by the way, at the same time as

10 I said. Yeah. It happened almost in the same move that -- yeah, in the

11 same sequence as we had that talk about, "Look the house is overfilled,

12 what's going to happen there," and so on and so on.

13 Q. Just so I understand your answer, what you say is that it was

14 simultaneous; that you in fact were in the process of arranging for

15 transport and it had already happened?

16 A. We were -- we weren't able to arrange anything because, we were

17 asking. And we were saying, "You have a situation with a lot of people.

18 What you going to do about that?" And if I say we arranged for transport,

19 then it's more we had the idea to try to arrange transport but we weren't

20 in control, so we weren't able to arrange anything. We just were asking,

21 "Is it possible that you can ease the situation by having the men out of

22 the house?" Because it was totally filled up.

23 Q. All right. So just so I understand what's written in your

24 statement to the Kodak team, while it appears to indicate past tense, that

25 you'd arranged for transport, that's not correct?

Page 4976

1 A. It's semantic.

2 Q. It's a matter of semantics?

3 A. Yes, it's a word thing. I must say that, because last week

4 happened the same thing. You're trying to give a situation where

5 everything happens in minutes and time frames, and giving the whole

6 situation a totally different view then. And that is something that

7 doesn't happen in the real life situation. You aren't walking around with

8 your eyes on your wrist; How long have I been here? How long am I

9 travelling from right to left? So yes, I getting a little bit irritated,

10 I know, but that's no real operational situation. I'm sorry, I must say

11 that because that's the case.

12 Q. I don't mean to irritate you, Major. I'm just asking you

13 questions?

14 A. Yes, but I'm just saying how does -- how this kind of text gets

15 interpreted and then we get a different situation.

16 Q. I want to ask you about what I just clarified that there were only

17 two occasions that you went to the "White House" on the 13th of July; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yeah? Perhaps if I could get you, please, to have a look at 3D37,

21 page 4. This is your statement to the ICTY. Do you have that there in

22 front of you? And I think it's the next page. It's not my page -- yeah,

23 the next page, sorry, my mistake. All right.

24 Now, if you can just focus your mind on that paragraph where it

25 says, "I walked back with van Schaik to the house." This is the second

Page 4977

1 time that you arrive at the "White House," is that correct?

2 A. Van Schaik was also the first time around when I was with

3 the"White House".

4 Q. Perhaps if I can focus your mind in this way, you're recounting a

5 visit to the "White House" after the discovery of the nine bodies?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes. So if we look at it like that, then it's fair to say, is it

8 not that this is the second time you'd been to the "White House?"

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. So you say that you walked back with van Schaik. Now,

11 at this stage, you don't indicate anything about walking there with your

12 driver. You agree with that?

13 A. Yes, I agree.

14 Q. And then you recount what we've been through already, that you

15 observed that the house was full?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes? And then you also indicate that Major De Haan was in fact at

18 the "White House" on this occasion; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yeah? So, again, your memory perhaps is failing you a little bit

21 before when you said he wasn't there on the second occasion? I'm not

22 criticising you --

23 A. No, no, no, no, no. But the second time the situation we spoke

24 about was the situation at the opposite of the house with Sergeant Major

25 Rave around and there was Major De Haan. The time that I saw him with the

Page 4978

1 house, yeah, could have been at the same movement. Yes, could have been.

2 Q. So your memory now was he was in fact there on the second

3 occasion?

4 A. Yes, could have been.

5 Q. Yeah? Now you then go on in the next paragraph to say, "I then

6 went to see my company commander." So you've left the "White House"

7 obviously?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You see that?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Now, then, you go on in the paragraph that begins, "I then walked

12 back to the house with Private Verbugt." You see that there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So, in fact, it appears from the way I read it, and please correct

15 me if I'm wrong, that there were three occasions?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that right?

18 A. Yeah, could have been.

19 Q. Again, difficulty with your memory, because there was a lot going

20 on in your mind on this day?

21 A. Yes. But now you're over 11 years, there have been a lot of

22 statements, you're putting now for different years, statements next to

23 each other and pick out words where there is one, two, three, or four

24 times that I've been at the house. There was a visit that I stayed

25 somewhat longer, if it's 15 or five minutes. Okay, then I've been three

Page 4979

1 times -- I was three times there. It could have been. It's difficult to

2 say that.

3 Q. All right. Can I put this to you? This third occasion that you

4 speak of in your statement, you say that you approached the house and all

5 you saw was the BSA soldiers taking money. That was an extremely quick

6 visit on that final occasion, you agree with that?

7 A. The visit with Verbugt was, as I told you before, only 15

8 minutes. Rather than connect the persons with the visit, then we have the

9 situation.

10 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to ask you some questions about -- well,

11 actually before I do that, can I ask you this? You've made some -- you've

12 had some grievances about the debriefing statements as not being an

13 accurate representation of events from your perspective. You agree with

14 that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I assume that you don't have the same complaint when it comes to

17 this statement taken in October 1995 by the ICTY investigators?

18 A. Yes, you can -- yes.

19 Q. Can I say that? You agree with that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I want to ask you just briefly about the fate of the film that

22 failed to materialise. You know what I'm talking -- in relation to the

23 photos you took?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, can I ask you this. Many how many rolls of film had you

Page 4980

1 taken when you left -- when you left the former Yugoslavia on the 21st of

2 July, I think it was?

3 A. The ones I had on me, two.

4 Q. You had two. Now, tell me, were they both rolls of film that

5 reflected the events that had been going on in and around Potocari on

6 these days that we are talking about, the 12th, the 13th of July?

7 A. Yes, you're correct.

8 Q. Yeah? And you made a decision not to hand over that film while

9 you were in Zagreb?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You didn't trust -- there was a question of trust as far as you

14 were concerned?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yeah? And then when you were back in Holland, you indicated to

17 the Ministry of Defence that you would hand this material over, for

18 obvious reasons?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, was it the 23rd or the 24th of July that you handed that film

21 over?

22 A. We came back on Monday, and on Tuesday I handed the film over.

23 Q. And that was done in, is it fair to say, fairly informal

24 circumstances?

25 A. Yes. It's fair to say.

Page 4981

1 Q. Because you were visited at your home by I think it was Mr. de

2 Ruiter?

3 A. Major de Ruiter.

4 Q. Who was he? Was he present in Sarajevo during this period or is

5 that a different --

6 A. Sarajevo?

7 Q. Yeah.

8 A. I don't know about that.

9 Q. You don't know?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. But he was from the Ministry of Defence; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. From the intelligence department?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yeah? And you told him what was on both of these rolls of films;

17 is that correct?

18 A. No. He was only asking me for one film and that was the film

19 where I photographed the --

20 Q. The bodies?

21 A. The bodies, yes.

22 Q. All right. So, well, you've clarified that for me, then. So in

23 fact, you only handed over one roll of film to him?

24 A. Yes. You're correct, yes.

25 Q. And that was a roll of film that you were told over the phone the

Page 4982

1 next day had been destroyed; is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Yeah. Did you ever at any stage receive any official written

4 report as to the fate of the film or not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Never?

7 A. No. Later on there were reports, but not on the fate of the film

8 itself.

9 Q. All right. Because I'm interested in a comment that you made in

10 your Assen debriefing. This is 3D44, at page 2. Do you have that there

11 in front of you, Major?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yeah? You'll see there is a comment that you make where you refer

14 to the photo roll available to Major de Ruiter, and then you go on to say

15 still has some photographic material and you're willing to make that

16 available. So this is at the 6th of September 1995; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. What -- well, I'll ask you this: When you refer to the

19 photographic material there, is that the second roll of film?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. And you indicate that you're willing to make this

22 available if some indication could be given of what is being looked for.

23 I'm particularly interested in that statement by you. What did you mean

24 by that?

25 A. Yes. As I said it there, what are you looking for, I can then

Page 4983

1 explain what is already -- because I -- at that time, the second roll was

2 developed. And I could tell them what there was on the second roll. So I

3 could explain to them what there was on the roll, if they asked me the

4 question what they were looking for.

5 Q. But we've established, have we not, that what was on this second

6 roll were photos that you took as to the events in and around Potocari on

7 these days; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So am I to take it from that that there were photos of a similar

10 nature in terms of photos of what was going on at the blocking positions

11 with the separation or --

12 A. A part of those photos have been shown in the Krstic case.

13 Q. That was my next question. So these photos that you have, you

14 have given to the investigators of the ICTY; is that correct?

15 A. During the Krstic case, yes.

16 Q. And can you tell me how many photos there were?

17 A. Seven or eight that I were -- that were in relation to the

18 happenings on the 12th and the 13th, yes.

19 Q. All right. I want to ask you about, in fact, my next topic is

20 some evidence that you gave in the Krstic trial. You'll recall that in

21 the course of giving evidence in that trial, and in this, you were shown a

22 photo. Do you recall that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yeah? And what the Prosecutor said to you in the Krstic trial was

25 that you had seen that photo before.

Page 4984

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Yeah? I want to ask you about that, and I appreciate that this is

3 really going to test your memory. But no doubt, prior to you giving

4 evidence in the Krstic trial, you were subject to a proofing session by

5 the Prosecutor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yeah. In the same way you were here a number of them?

8 A. I was once here, yes.

9 Q. We will get to the number of proofing sessions you've had for this

10 trial in a moment. But I want to ask you about your proofing session

11 prior to giving evidence in the Krstic trial. You recall the name of the

12 Prosecutor in the Krstic trial?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Harmon?

15 A. Yes, I recall that.

16 Q. Tell me, who was present at this proofing session?

17 A. Mr. Harmon was, yes.

18 Q. Just the two of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yeah? Can you tell me how long that went for?

21 A. The only thing is a day, I think, it was on a Sunday.

22 Q. So actually you seem to -- you can recall the actual day, so you

23 have a reasonable memory of it?

24 A. Yes. Because it's a typical day to still work on a Sunday here,

25 yes?

Page 4985

1 Q. So it went all day, and it was just the two of you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, this might seem like a very obvious question. But no doubt,

4 while you were being proofed by him, he took notes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes. And given that it went for a day, he was no doubt taking

7 notes for the entire time that you were going through your statement, yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yeah? Now, no doubt the beginning of the proofing session --

10 perhaps I'll ask you: Do you have any specific recollection of how that

11 proofing session began?

12 A. We spoke about the situation on the different kinds of statements

13 that there were already here in the ICTY, yeah, by the Office of the

14 Prosecutor, yeah.

15 Q. And no doubt you read your statements thoroughly in the course of

16 that proofing session?

17 A. At that time, there were less statements on the table than now --

18 than there are now.

19 Q. I appreciate that. But the statements that you did have in front

20 of you, then you read thoroughly?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Yeah? And as we've established in the course of this proofing

23 session, you were shown a photo by Mr. Harmon.

24 A. No. Something else happened. I told him that I was sent again on

25 a mission abroad. It was in the course of the conversation. And I said

Page 4986

1 that I will be going to Banja Luka again in two or three months. And he

2 said, "Oh, that is interesting," and then he called a colleague. And I

3 didn't exactly know what he was weighs talking about. He said, "Can I

4 show you some video?" And we saw some video, and there were some persons

5 on it, yes.

6 Q. I'll just stop you there. At what point in the proofing session

7 did this occur? Was it in the middle? Was it towards the beginning? Was

8 it at the end?

9 A. It was in the afternoon somewhere, I think.

10 Q. And the context in which his suggestion -- well, perhaps I'll

11 establish this first. Obviously, it's his suggestion to show you a video,

12 you agree with that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yeah. And can I ask you this? Was it related in any way in the

15 context of your -- of a discussion about your role as an intelligence

16 officer while you were at a time Srebrenica?

17 A. No, no. The question was put more, put like, I said I was

18 interested in pictures of persons that I had seen, probably had seen,

19 during those days. And he said during the day, "Later on I can show you

20 some video. Perhaps you'll recognise someone."

21 Q. Okay. So just so that I understand exactly, so that you, in fact,

22 said you were interested in pictures of persons; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, because he --

24 Q. Can I ask you this, just before you answer, was that in response

25 to him already indicating that he had some videos that he wanted to show

Page 4987

1 you?

2 A. No, no, no, no. No. We were talking about -- as I said before,

3 about my mission abroad. And I asked him where the persons that you going

4 to show? Are they still in Serbia? Where are they at the moment? We

5 talked about that.

6 Q. And in response to that specific inquiry of yours as to whether or

7 not people were still in Serbia, he then said, "Well, I've got a video

8 that you maybe interested in watching?"

9 A. Yeah. He suggested that there were some material that he would

10 later on show me, yes.

11 Q. All right. But in that regard, it's fair to say, isn't it, that

12 when you watched that video. The seed had been planted in your mind, so

13 to speak, that there were going to be persons on that video that you might

14 be interested in, in relation to the investigation? That's fair, isn't

15 it?

16 A. No. The first pictures that I saw, I didn't recognise any of them

17 at all. So, yes, there wasn't planted nothing, I think, but okay, not to

18 my knowledge.

19 Q. No, but Major Rutten, you appreciate this was part of an

20 investigation -- an investigative process, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It was?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You agree with that, yes. And so when Mr. Harmon says to you, "I

25 have some video material that you may be interested in," you know, in your

Page 4988

1 mind, what the purpose is behind showing that to you?

2 A. Yes, but the purpose of being around that day was also very clear.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

4 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, that question was asked and he provided

5 an answer. And it's being asked again.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree 100 percent with you. There could have been

7 no other purpose for showing him this video, Ms. Condon.

8 MS. CONDON: I'll move on, Your Honour.

9 Q. Perhaps I'll just -- I just want to take you up on your last

10 question, Major -- sorry, your last answer. Was that what you said was, I

11 just want to get the sequence right, "The first pictures that I saw, I

12 didn't recognise any of them at all."

13 All right? So when you say the first pictures that you saw, so

14 that I understand the sequence, are you referring to the first video that

15 you saw?

16 A. Yes. It were video pictures that were freezed more or less.

17 Q. Okay. So we know we need to establish this. So, in fact, what

18 you were shown first was a stills from a video; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Can you tell me how many you were shown?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No?

23 A. No.

24 Q. It was in a book form, was it?

25 A. No. It were some pictures, stills, as you call it, from videos,

Page 4989

1 and I don't recall how much I saw.

2 Q. No. No, sorry. It's my fault because my question wasn't clear

3 enough. I would like to know what form they were shown to you in. It was

4 a situation where there was, "Here have a look at there photo," then the

5 next, or was it a book where you were asked to flip through the book and

6 say, "Do you recognise any of these people?"

7 A. No. It was stills from a video picture.

8 Q. On a computer screen?

9 A. On a screen, yeah.

10 Q. And what you've indicated is that from the -- the first time,

11 there was no recognition at all of anybody?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Nothing?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So --

16 A. Just the situation I saw.

17 Q. Yeah?

18 A. But not the persons who were on it.

19 Q. No, no. But I'm obviously focusing our mind on a particular

20 process where you say, "Oh, I recognise that person." Okay? That's what

21 I'm asking you about. So what then happened? You said, "Well I don't

22 know recognise anybody here." Were you then shown a video?

23 A. No. I only saw freezed video images.

24 Q. All right. And then, what, you looked at them again and then you

25 say you had -- you recognised somebody?

Page 4990

1 A. No. Then we saw other pictures. And there, I recognised someone.

2 Q. Right. And again, can I ask you, the other pictures that you saw,

3 how -- in what sequence? Was it ten pictures that were offered to you?

4 Was it 20? Was it 30? Was it 50? How many?

5 A. Many. But, yeah, there were many shown, yes. Many stills on the

6 video. I don't know how much, but a lot.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Can I ask you how long that process took, or you don't have any

10 recollection?

11 A. No. Sometime. It can be 15 until 30 minutes I think, yes.

12 Q. See, what I -- apparently, what you told -- I'm not trying to

13 trick you, but I just want to clarify this. In your proofing -- well,

14 I'll ask you this now: How many proofing sessions have you had with Mr.

15 Thayer?

16 A. One.

17 Q. Just one?

18 A. One and -- one in an evening before I came here on last Tuesday,

19 yes.

20 Q. So two?

21 A. Two, yes.

22 Q. And the first one was on the 9th of November, I think, from

23 memory; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And tell me this: Were you shown any videos or photos in that

Page 4991

1 first proofing session?

2 A. No.

3 Q. No?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. And in the second proofing session last week, you

6 were?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Yeah. And he asked you, Mr. Thayer asked you, what had happened

9 at the Krstic proofing session, didn't he?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yeah? And you told him that Mark showed you a video in which you

12 recognised some people; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And also a book of photographs in which you recognised some

15 people?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that correct? Let me ask you this: When you say you

18 recognised the people on the video, they were different to the persons

19 that you identified in the stills; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yes in not the same?

22 A. No. A lot of them, not now. One -- one was and a lot of them, I

23 didn't see before.

24 Q. All right. Can you help me out here a little bit? I presume that

25 you weren't shown the video last Tuesday night with Mr. Thayer?

Page 4992

1 A. No. I haven't seen the video, no.

2 Q. Well, from your memory, tell me how long does that video last for?

3 A. The session with Mr. Harmon, you mean?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I saw only the stills of the

6 video, and I saw not the complete video.

7 Q. So in effect, just -- you didn't see a compilation of images when

8 you refer to it as a video; is that right?

9 A. No. It was stills from a video. That's what I'm saying.

10 Q. All right. Now, when you saw those images, this is in your

11 proofing session with Mr. Harmon, those stills, were they images that were

12 familiar to you from media reports of the fall of Srebrenica?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Had you seen any of those images before?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No? They were completely new? Some of them familiar at least?

17 A. No. They were new to me.

18 Q. All right. Now, you would agree, wouldn't you, that -- and I

19 certainly -- if you need to have a look at your statement again, then I

20 can bring it up for you. But there is simply no reference at all in your

21 October 1999 statement to having seen a person outside the "White House"

22 who you refer to as not a plain soldier. You agree with that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Yeah. That there stand again no description, nothing, about this

25 person in your October 1999 statement, yes?

Page 4993

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And, obviously, obvious question, but you've already been asked

3 it. Your memory in relation to the events is going to be far more

4 accurate in October 1995 than it is in April of 2000, isn't it?

5 A. Yes. But that questions were never asked in previous statements

6 before 1999.

7 Q. Yes?

8 A. So there are a lot of questions that weren't asked in Holland in

9 the various interviews that I had.

10 Q. But we've already established insofar as your ICTY statement is

11 concerned, the October 1999 -- 1995 one, you don't have any complaints or

12 grievances as to the completeness of that statement? Sorry, is that

13 funny?

14 A. Yes. It is funny. Because when you're sitting there for a number

15 of time, and they don't ask you questions that you by yourself don't see

16 as a question, is there -- and if later on there comes another one and

17 asks specifically about other things, then you answer that questions at

18 that time and not, oh, you haven't asked me that question on that

19 particular time. It wasn't the case, it wasn't the situation.

20 Q. So what you say is the fact that that's not contained in your

21 statement is simply down to the fact that you weren't asked the question?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Bearing in mind that you also had the wherewithal to include in

24 that statement reference to a specific Serbian leader that you went to

25 speak to about events in the "White House." You agree with that?

Page 4994

1 A. Yes, and they never asked me about the identity of the person.

2 They never asked for it.

3 Q. All right. But you agree that in your proofing session last

4 Tuesday night with Mr. Thayer, you were asked to recall what uniform this

5 man was wearing at the time, weren't you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yeah. And on Tuesday evening, your answer was, "I cannot recall."

8 You agree with that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That's in the proofing note, I can show you. You agree with that?

11 A. Yeah, I agree on that.

12 Q. And now, in your evidence in this trial last Thursday, in response

13 to the same question, you say, "He was wearing camouflage trouser and a

14 green-brown T-shirt."

15 A. Because that was the answer to the question.

16 Q. Hold on. You agree with that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Yeah? Now, that's because you'd seen the photo, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes. So, in fact, it's fair to say, is it not, that without you

21 being shown this photo, Major Rutten, you have no independent memory of

22 this person that you say you saw outside the "White House." You agree

23 with that?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. He may not have an independent memory

Page 4995

1 the way you've been putting it on what he might have been wearing.

2 Doesn't necessarily translate into not having an independent memory of the

3 face of that person, for example, or the stature of that person.

4 MS. CONDON: Perhaps Your Honour. If I follow up with an if you

5 more questions on this point and I am about to move to another topic. And

6 I see the time as well. It's nearly time to break.

7 Q. Again, I just want to remind you that in your October 1995

8 statement, there is no reference to the actions of this individual at all,

9 in any way, shape or form, is there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. No, no.

12 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, I am about to move to another topic and

13 I see the time. And I appreciate that this cross-examination will be

14 divided, so perhaps if I could seek the Court's indulgence and conclude

15 here for the day?

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Major, did you have an opportunity to

18 discuss with the VW unit about your availability?

19 THE WITNESS: No. They haven't spoke to me until this moment, no.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: When do you think you can return for conclusion of

21 your cross-examination?

22 THE WITNESS: I Haven't my agenda here with me, so certainly not

23 this week because I have a completely booked agenda.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't like to have it postponed beyond the 14th

25 of December. So if you could find a day when you could return before the

Page 4996

1 14th of December, when we go on recess, after which we go on recess.

2 Perhaps you can communicate it now the Victims and Witnesses Unit or maybe

3 even the registrar will communicate with you and give you the various

4 options, contact numbers, et cetera and then you need to let us know and

5 we can accommodate you.

6 In the meantime you need to make some adjustments, but I don't

7 think we should leave a long interval of time between now and when he will

8 testify again.

9 MS. CONDON: Your Honour, can I just to appease Major Rutten, I

10 suspect I have another hour of cross-examination and then I'll conclude

11 with him.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But then we have another two teams so that may

13 amount to another hour so we are talking of a whole session at least, or

14 more than a session, yeah. So you will need to make adjustments. The

15 moment he communicates to us the possible dates, we will see what options

16 there are, Major, and we'll try to adjust our schedule accordingly.

17 And in the meantime, again, once you are still testifying, please

18 do not communicate with the Prosecution or anybody else for that matter,

19 and then you will return when -- on a day when it will be convenient for

20 you. Okay. I think you can be escorted now out of the courtroom. Thank

21 you, Major --

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for your patience and cooperation. And we'll meet

24 again.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 4997

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Tomorrow, we are starting with the new

2 witness, 70. I'm just confirming orally that this witness will testify

3 with the following protective measures: That's facial distortion and

4 pseudonym. All right. I take it the position with the Defence is

5 precisely that, no objections, in relation to the next one.

6 And if you could let us have your objections or your points in

7 writing at the earliest possible we will try to come down with our

8 position by tomorrow or Wednesday at the latest. The earlier you feed us

9 your position on these protective measures, the earlier we will come back

10 to you. Thank you so much. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, just to alert you. I think

12 the main argument will be on Serb witnesses regarding protective measures,

13 is my understanding, and the -- also, we will be in touch about the next

14 witness because if the next witness comes back like we all hope next week,

15 that may change our whole witness arrangement in terms of these witnesses.

16 So we'll be in touch as we get our schedule.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You know you can take it for granted that we

18 interfere the least possible, if at all, with scheduling of -- but I think

19 it's desirable not to delay the continuation of this witness's

20 cross-examination beyond what is reasonable when our memories would still

21 be fresh. Okay. Thank you. Tomorrow it's sitting in the afternoon. We

22 will need to make an adjustment in the timing. We'll need a break at 5.30

23 because we have a Judges' meeting at 5.30 which will last about half an

24 hour. So it will not be the usual -- there will be the first break at the

25 usual time but then we'll need to break again at 5.30 so make the

Page 4998

1 necessary arrangements. Thank you.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

4 November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.