1 Wednesday, 13 December 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could you
7 call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Everyone seems to be here. Yes.
11 Prosecution is Mr. Thayer together with Mr. McCloskey, lead
13 All right. So good morning to you, sir.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are a Prosecution
16 witness, and before you start your testimony, you need to enter a solemn
17 declaration that you will be testifying the truth. Madam Usher is going
18 to hand you the text of this solemn declaration. Once you have read it,
19 that will be an undertaking, a solemn undertaking that you will have made
20 with us to testify the truth.
21 So, Madam Usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-133
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: What's going to happen is Mr. Thayer will be
4 referring to your previous testimony in another case, giving us a summary
5 of what you testified in that other case, Blagojevic case, and Jokic. And
6 then we will proceed with some questions. He will then be followed by
7 cross-examination from the various Defence teams. We'll make an effort to
8 try and finish your testimony today, if possible. If not, you will come
9 back again tomorrow.
10 Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good
12 morning, Your Honours. Good morning, all.
13 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
14 Q. Sir, good morning. I'm going to hand you a sheet of paper with
15 the assistance of Madam Usher. I would just ask you to read it to
16 yourself and just confirm that your name is written above the number
17 PW-133. And, for the record, this is P02334.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sir, before I begin asking you some questions about your prior
20 testimony, I just wanted to confirm some general biographical information
21 for which we will not need to go into private session. I'll be general
22 enough about it.
23 Can you tell the Trial Chamber what year you were born in, sir?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Shall we do this in open session or ...
25 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I'm keeping it general enough, so I
1 think we can remain in open session.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] (redacted)
5 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why -- I heard what you had said earlier but
6 I tried to give you a hint. So let's redact this.
7 MR. THAYER: Just to be safe, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And we'll move into private session.
9 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. Sir, have you had an opportunity to review your prior testimony?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour -- thank you.
13 MR. THAYER: Getting there, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, thank you.
15 MR. THAYER:
16 Q. Did one of our language assistants, sir, read to you your
17 testimony in the Krstic and the Blagojevic cases?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I want to turn your attention specifically to your testimony in
20 the Blagojevic case. Was that entire testimony read to you in your own
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you attest before the Trial Chamber that that testimony
24 which was read to you was a fair and accurate transcription of the
25 testimony which you gave in the Blagojevic case?
1 A. [No interpretation].
2 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to turn your attention to a summary I'm going
3 to read of that testimony, and I just ask you to listen as I summarise it,
4 and at the end if there are any additions or corrections that you'd like
5 to make, you'll have an opportunity to do so, okay?
6 The witness became a ham radio enthusiast at the age of 17 or 18.
7 He really liked it and eventually obtained a category B licence.
8 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if we may move into private session just
9 for a couple of paragraphs.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.
11 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
11 MR. THAYER: The witness did the same job at his location as he
12 did at the other location and both locations used similar or the same
14 His location was a higher elevation than the other location and
15 the received signal was clearer. Other factors that affected the quality
16 of the signal included the direction in which the antennas were pointed,
17 or was pointed, whether the phones and antennas of the participants were
18 facing the operator's location, the make of the antenna and the weather.
19 At his location, the established procedure was thus: They had several
20 receivers receiving signals from radio relay 800 and radio relay 1. They
21 also had scanners which were always on and were used to scan various
22 frequencies. Sometimes the scanners would stop whenever a signal appeared
23 on a given frequency, at which time they would stop the machine and start
24 the reel-to-reel recorder which was linked to the receiver by depressing
25 the pause button on the recorder, record the conversation and stop the
1 recorder or press the pause button again at the end of the conversation.
2 In cases where he was unable to record the beginning portion of a
3 conversation but could still hear that portion of the conversation in
4 which the names of participants or code names were mentioned, he would
5 immediately write that information in the notebook. Before the
6 introduction of notebooks he would write the information on a piece of
8 It was left to their discretion to decide on the relevance of a
9 given conversation. If a conversation was important, they would
10 immediately rewind the tape and transcribe the conversation into a
11 notebook. A computer operator would then type in the text, encrypt it,
12 and forward it to their centre. If a conversation were less important,
13 they could wait a couple of hours or so. If a conversation were
14 unimportant, they did not transcribe it.
15 While transcribing a conversation he wrote down exactly what he
16 heard. If there was something he was not sure about he would place a
17 question mark in the notebook, and if he could not hear a portion at all,
18 he would place dots. If something were unclear to the typist, for example
19 someone's handwriting, an error or the meaning of a sentence, the typist
20 would ask him and he would tell the typist or replay the tape over and
21 over again and listen, sometimes with the help of others, then tell the
22 typist what to add.
23 The typist's duty was to type out what the operators recorded. It
24 was not the typist's job to change anything without the intercept
25 operator's approval. He could not know if an intercept operator or a
1 typist added words which may have been synonyms that changed the meaning
2 of a sentence. That would have been perfectly possible.
3 The witness recognised an intercepted conversation in his
4 handwriting contained in an original notebook from his location. He
5 identified the participants as Colonel Ljubo Beara and General Krstic by
6 recognising Krstic's voice, by the two participants using their names when
7 speaking to each other, and by the frequency on which Krstic was
8 communicating, which they had programmed into their equipment since Krstic
9 was a very important figure in the VRS at the time and they often listened
10 to him.
11 He did not write the date of the conversation down but he could
12 say that it occurred on either the 14th or 15th of July, 1995, based on a
13 reference in the conversation to 13 July and to the date of 16 July 1995
14 written on the last page of the conversation in his handwriting.
15 He also bases this conclusion on the heading of the printout of
16 the conversation which bears the date of 15 July 1995.
17 He then identified some differences between his handwritten
18 transcription of the conversation and a typed version of the same
19 conversation. For example, at first in the notebook he wrote, "Tasic or
20 Sladojevic." Because that is what he heard in the beginning of the
21 conversation. Later in the conversation he heard the names "Nastic"
22 and "Blagojevic," so he wrote those names down. By the time the
23 conversation was typed from the notebook to the printout, the reference to
24 Tasic or Sladojevic was corrected to Nastic or Blagojevic.
25 In addition, the printout included two words which were not in the
1 notebook. He identified some other differences between the notebook and
2 the printout but the sense or meaning of the sentence stayed the same.
3 The missing words were not so important and leaving them out sped up the
5 He then identified notebooks and/or printouts of the same
6 conversation as intercepted and transcribed by two other units, including
7 the other location.
8 The witness then recognised a second intercepted conversation in
9 his handwriting contained in a notebook. He identified the participants
10 as Krstic and Obrenovic because they introduced themselves and called each
11 other by name. It was also not difficult to recognise Krstic's voice. He
12 noted the time and day in the notebook but not the date. When shown the
13 typewritten version of the conversation, which bears the date of 2 August
14 1995, he concluded that that was the date that was entered by the
15 encryption officer while he was typing it so that meant that the officer
16 typed it that day, encrypted it and sent it to their centre. Based on
17 that, he concluded that that was the day the conversation took place.
18 Q. Now, sir, that concludes the summary. Based on what I just read,
19 are there any corrections or additions which you would care to make?
20 A. I think that that is all very well done. I have nothing to add.
21 Q. With the assistance of Madam Usher, I just want to hand you an
22 item. Sir, it's a packet containing material pertaining to three
23 intercepts which is being handed to you by Madam Usher. In preparing for
24 your testimony today, did you review certain material in that packet?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And specifically does the packet contain handwritten
2 transcriptions of three intercepts?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you recognise the handwriting of those three
5 transcriptions, sir?
6 A. Yes. That's my handwriting.
7 Q. And did I also show you three original intercept notebooks?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And without identifying any locations by name, sir, can you tell
10 the Trial Chamber where those notebooks came from?
11 A. The notebooks are from the location where we were doing the
12 intercepting work.
13 Q. And sir, were you able to identify in those notebooks your
14 original handwritten transcriptions which are copied into that packet
15 before you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And are the photocopies that are contained in the packet fair and
18 accurate reproductions of your original notebook entries, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in addition to your handwritten entries, does the packet
21 contained typewritten daily reports or printouts of those three
22 intercepted conversations?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And, sir, did you have an opportunity to compare the typewritten
25 documents with your handwritten entries?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not those
3 typewritten versions are in fact the reports or printouts created from
4 your handwritten notebook entries?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: I object, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic, what's the objection.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, the objection is that this witness is
8 not the witness or there is no foundation that he typed the material and
9 we know from previous witnesses that they're not analysts, so for him to
10 make a comparison to contrast and to somehow give credence either to the
11 typed version, I thought this witness was to testify just on his notes,
12 not on the typewritten version, and then to tell us whether he thinks it's
13 accurate or to share the differences. I think the typist or the person
14 who typed them out can come in and then they can show us what they typed
15 and how they felt it was different.
16 I object to the question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is number 2 question, number 1 being,
18 sir, did you have an opportunity to compare the typewritten documents with
19 your handwritten entries, and he said yes. And then the next question,
20 which is a logical sequence to the previous one, and can you tell the
21 Trial Chamber whether or not those typewritten versions are in fact the
22 reports or printouts created from your handwritten Nikolic entries.
23 So basically he's being asked to confirm whether they faithfully
24 reproduce what he had himself written in the notebook. This is how, if we
25 need, we can rephrase the question, but at the end of the day, second
1 question follows the first one. There is no point in asking him the first
2 one without asking him the second one.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: I know that in his testimony, Your Honour, as I hope
4 you'll see during the cross, he clearly indicates that he didn't know
5 whether it was typed, he clearly indicates he doesn't know whether it was
6 sent out, and that's what he was asked by the Judge in the other case. So
7 I think if counsel is going to pursue that, I think it would be fair to
8 set that as a foundation before he suggests that to the witness.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thanks for that information, but of
10 course you can raise it with the witness on cross-examination.
11 Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for some reason on
13 page 11, line 21, [In English]: "Handwritten Nikolic entries."
14 MR. THAYER: Yes, that should be "notebook," Mr. President.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. That needs to be corrected,
16 of course, and I'm sure it will be attended to.
17 So I suggest you rephrase the question, but basically there is no
18 point in -- sense in putting the first question without following it up
19 with the second. And then Mr. Ostojic can -- and others can confront him
20 with whether and when he came to know about these typewritten versions.
21 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
22 MR. THAYER: I'll do my best, Your Honour, it's a very simple
23 question. I'll try to break it down even further.
24 Q. Sir, when you were shown the typewritten versions, can you
25 describe to the Trial Chamber the process that you underwent when you
1 compared the notebook to the typewritten version?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You're making it more complicated.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not, Your Honour, but I don't want to waste --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Not you. He is making it more complicated.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay, I'm sorry. Can he just tell us when instead
6 of us having to fish it out and always be vague with the questions. If he
7 can tell us when he met with him, when he was given the typewritten notes,
8 and then the cross can actually be reduced to a certain degree. But we're
9 always --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: That has already been asked, if you look at line --
11 he's referring to when he arrived here and had meetings with, I don't
12 know, and to a particular packet. And in addition to your handwritten
13 entries does the packet contain typewritten daily reports or printouts of
14 those three intercepted conversations; yes. And, sir, did you have an
15 opportunity to compare; yes. And then what -- there was a question.
16 So your question should only be what's your conclusion after
17 having seen those typewritten reports upon comparing them after comparing
18 them with your notebook entries? It's as simple as that and we move
19 forward because we're literally wasting time.
20 MR. THAYER: I'll just leave it there, Your Honour, that was I
21 think the question that was asked and drew the objection, but that will
22 just leave the question right there.
23 Q. Sir, did you understand Mr. President's question? If you need to
24 look at the transcripts to do so --
25 A. I can say about this typed document comparing it to my handwritten
1 document and comparing this to my recollections from that location as we
2 did it on the computer, I can say that this resembles that document both
3 in terms of heading and in terms of how the information was recorded.
4 Q. And what is your conclusion, sir, after seeing that those
5 typewritten reports upon comparing them with your notebook entries in
6 terms of whether or not they are actually the typewritten versions of your
7 notebook entries?
8 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll object to the form of the question.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think you need to rephrase it. I mean, just
10 ask him what his conclusion is.
11 After having compared the notebook entries with the printouts that
12 you were given, what's your conclusion?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My conclusion is that my handwritten
14 version of this document resembles the other one and that the data is the
15 same, the one that I wrote in my handwriting, and then there is the
16 heading that we used to always put on that location on the computer, so
17 this document resembles that format. And I can tell you that it is most
18 likely from (redacted). I can't confirm that with 100 per cent certainty but
19 it certainly resembles that format.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's redact this part, line 13, on my monitor at
21 least because sometimes it doesn't correspond exactly.
22 Please don't mention the names of any of the sites again.
23 Mr. Thayer had explained that to you in the beginning.
24 You are using - or at least that's the interpretation that we are
25 receiving - the word "resembles." Why are you using the word "resembles"
1 and not is exactly the same?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you that my handwriting
3 and this document are identical to some minor errors in the typed
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if we may move into private session just
8 for one question.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Private session, please.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 5466 redacted. Private session
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
23 MR. THAYER:
24 Q. Witness, I want to turn your attention to the conversation -- for
25 those of us who are looking at the packets, it's at tab 1. And may we
1 have 65 ter number 1179B, Bravo, on e-court, please?
2 And, sir, actually if you would look on what is on your screen,
3 tell me when you see an image, please.
4 A. All right.
5 Q. Do you recognise what's on your screen?
6 A. Yes. This is my handwritten cable from that location.
7 Q. And looking at this first page, at the -- pretty much the first
8 line there, do you have the participants to this conversation listed?
9 A. Yes. Underneath the time and frequency, in the first line, right
10 below that you see the names of two participants.
11 Q. And can you read who those participants are, sir?
12 A. The first one is Colonel Ljubo Beara and the second one is General
14 Q. Sir, you just referred to the frequency that is written. Can you
15 read for the Trial Chamber what other information is listed above the
16 participants. And for the record if you would also just read what the
17 frequency for this conversation is, as you recorded it?
18 A. The frequency was 255.850 megahertz, and then you see the time
19 indication of the intercept.
20 Q. What is that time, sir?
21 A. The time is 1000. You can't see the zero very well, but I can see
22 that it's 10.00, 1000.
23 Q. And there is something written to the far right of that. Do you
24 see what that word is, sir?
25 A. Yes. In parentheses it says, Krle.
1 Q. Now, sir, at the time you actually intercepted this conversation,
2 were you aware of what General Krstic's nickname was?
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, but this is all
4 covered in the Blagojevic case which the Prosecutor is tendering as
5 evidence. It's in the transcript, so if he's going to read the entire
6 transcript back to us, we can thank him in advance, but I think it's a
7 waste of time, and we would like to get out of here as soon as possible,
8 given the breaks. And, quite frankly, he's just repeating questions that
9 he's selecting from Blagojevic. And if he wants to read the whole
10 transcript, he's welcome to do it, but it's all in the Blagojevic case.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a follow-up to this question?
12 MR. THAYER: Of course I do, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
14 MR. THAYER:
15 Q. Sir, you testified in Blagojevic that you were able to recognise
16 General Krstic's voice and that your equipment was set to his frequency
17 and that he and Colonel Beara referred to each other by name in the
18 conversation. But I want to turn your attention to your Krstic testimony,
19 because in Krstic you testified in a bit more detail than in Blagojevic
20 about what I'm going to ask you.
21 At the time you were listening to the conversation, was Colonel
22 Beara known or unknown to you?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon first.
24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Now, my colleague made an objection that we were reading over
1 again the Blagojevic transcript which now on the record. Now we are
2 referring to the Krstic transcript. The witness was asked whether his
3 testimony was accurate in the Blagojevic but now we are saying no, it's
4 more accurate in Krstic.
5 I really don't understand where our colleague is leading us this
6 morning. This is all on the record, Mr. President. The Prosecution is
7 trying to do by the back door what they can't do by the front door.
8 They've got all this on the record. Now they are asking questions over
10 Maybe there is a purpose behind this, but we can't see it,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Unfortunately you weren't here yesterday, because
13 yesterday the question was raised whether the Prosecution should have
14 indeed chosen the Blagojevic testimony and ignored, according to the
15 submission, the Krstic one, not asking to have it introduced under
16 Rule 92 ter, and we had an open discussion on this and it was made very
17 clear that Prosecution has a right to choose which of the two
18 transcripts -- or, rather, has a right to restrict itself to one
19 transcript and introducing that under Rule 92 ter if they want to.
20 But also, it was declared at the time by Mr. Thayer, in response
21 to what was the gist of the objection from Mr. Ostojic, that there will be
22 questions during the examination-in-chief referring to parts from Krstic,
23 which required some clarification. And then if anybody wishes to have the
24 Krstic transcript introduced into the records, we intimated that we were
25 leaving all doors open. That was what happened yesterday.
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, even
2 though I was not present in the courtroom yesterday, I do read the
3 transcripts and I was aware of the debate that took place between my
4 colleague and the Prosecution. However, at this time, what we are having
5 is that we are asking questions about the Krstic transcript and that's, as
6 was decided, not on the record. Then I will just say that the nature of
7 my objection is to say it's a leading question. Why does he ask -- does
8 he not ask the witness an open question about what happened and not what
9 he said in a case that is not on the record.
10 We are just confusing the issues this morning, Mr. President.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 But the problem is that it's 92 ter. It's restricted. They know
15 what the restrictions are. They can give you both or neither or one
16 transcript. They made a decision. Now they are trying to be selective in
17 Krstic, and they're not telling us, although he claims that he -- whatever
18 his question was, why doesn't he ask him why didn't you mention that in
19 Blagojevic? Why doesn't he tell us specifically how many times he met
20 with the Prosecutor, when was the first time that he gave notice to the
21 Defence that actually he's going to have certain testimony here that we
22 received the day before? Those are the questions if we are going to have
23 a 92 ter witness and transpose him into a live witness but only summarise
24 things for the Prosecutor, it's very unfair and it's prejudicial. If this
25 witness -- with all due respect to the witness, if the Prosecutor wants
1 to have a live witness, bring him as live. They suggest that he's 92 ter,
2 and then he's repeating questions that were asked in Blagojevic. That
3 question was asked in Blagojevic, they didn't -- the Prosecutor didn't
4 ask the question in Blagojevic. They should live with that.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we covered this when we handed our decision
6 introducing the 92 ter procedure to you for the purpose of this trial,
7 making it clear that 92 ter procedure does not mean that you introduce the
8 prior testimony and no questions will be asked by the Prosecutor or could
9 be the case.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: The position again is as I tried to explain earlier.
12 The procedure in Rule -- the Rule 92 ter procedure allows the Prosecution,
13 after the summary, to proceed with the questions they would like to put to
14 the witness.
15 Now, we discussed yesterday and also today the question of the
16 Krstic transcript, and there is no doubt that in areas which were covered
17 in the Krstic trial that were not, according to you, covered in
18 Blagojevic, you have every right to ask questions to the witness as per
19 your declaration of yesterday. But it would be preferable, I suppose, not
20 to directly refer the witness to the transcript in Krstic unless that
21 becomes necessary as an aide-memoire to refresh his memory or to assist in
22 his testimony. Otherwise, you can put -- you can lead on -- you can put
23 the question -- you can put the question just the same. Try to avoid as
24 much as possible referring to the Krstic, with the understanding that, of
25 course, that would not apply to any of the Defence teams. The Defence
1 teams are free to refer to the Krstic transcript in whatever manner they
2 like. All right?
3 MR. THAYER: Absolutely, Your Honour, and my references to the
4 actual Krstic testimony actually were designed more to facilitate
5 understanding with my learned colleagues so that they would understand
6 what I was doing based on our discussions yesterday. But I will heed your
7 advice or your instruction, Your Honour, and I will not refer to that
8 prior case in the further questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour; and thank you for that, my
11 learned colleague.
12 But, Your Honour, the question is not accurate and we object to
13 form as well, on page 19, line 11. It's not what he says in Krstic and
14 he's just -- it's a misrepresentation of what's on Krstic. And I would
15 only ask my learned colleague, for him to cite the page, because the page
16 I'm looking at is 4472, specifically line 14, and the question actually
17 has a different meaning than what the Prosecutor is asking now because he
18 prefaces the question at the time "while you were listening to the
19 conversation," and that's not what was asked in Krstic, and that's not
20 what was ever asked by any of the interviews that this witness conducted
21 with the Prosecutor or their investigators. It's a complete -- it's a
22 complete bad question in form and somebody stands --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Ostojic is kindly asked to slow down.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... you would be
25 able to cover that on cross-examination.
1 What we are trying to say is that Mr. Thayer doesn't need to draw
2 the attention of the witness to his testimony in Krstic to ask the
3 question whether at the time you were listening to the -- he was listening
4 to the conversation, Colonel Beara was known or unknown to him. You can
5 put the question direct and then one draws the conclusion referring to the
6 Blagojevic testimony and to the Krstic testimony if that is brought up at
7 any moment by the Defence.
8 So this is what I'm trying to convey as a message, and let's try
9 and move forward also because Mr. Ostojic is anxious to leave as early as
11 MR. OSTOJIC: It's been a long --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER:
14 Q. Sir, at the time you were listening to this conversation, was
15 Colonel Beara known or unknown to you?
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Same objection, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the objection now?
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, the objection is that clearly on December 11
19 of this year, two days ago, we received a letter from the Prosecutor
20 indicating supplemental information. The first time this was actually
21 revealed to the Defence is in the letter, as I said, dated the 11th of
22 December, from Nelson S. T. Thayer, Jr., Trial Counsel, and it says in
23 that first paragraph that this is new information that is just now
24 supposedly this witness will testify to.
25 So I object to it. It's untimely, it was never disclosed to the
1 Defence at any time, and it's not included in any of the materials we have
2 from the Prosecutor.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you expect the Prosecution to disclose to you the
4 questions that it will be asking the witnesses?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Not the questions, but if there is a witness that
6 has a claim, Your Honour, specifically as to the acts or conduct of any of
7 the accused, they are required under the rules to identify them and to
8 produce it.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed, Mr. Thayer, with your question.
11 There is absolutely no foundation to your objection, Mr. Ostojic.
12 MR. THAYER: And, Your Honour, just for the record, we can discuss
13 this, if the Court deems it necessary, out of the presence of the witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed with your -- please proceed with your
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. Ostojic has made factually incorrect statements,
17 and I can clarify that.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: I object to that, Your Honour.
19 THE INTERPRETER: -- speakers please not overlap and slow down.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: I mean -- I understand but he can't make those
21 accusations, Your Honour. We had a discussion about it yesterday, I was
22 clear on my point, and he obviously knew I was clear on my point, and he's
23 a bit perturbed about it. But I would ask my learned colleague --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Ostojic please slow down.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And, please, no further arguments on this
1 point. I do understand Mr. Ostojic's frustration with -- following your
2 comment, which I think shouldn't have been made. All right?
3 So let's try to keep the same environment with which we have been
4 working throughout since we started this trial, especially today, which
5 may be the last day before we break for the holidays.
6 Please proceed with your question. I don't think there is
7 anything else to discuss on the issue raised by Mr. Ostojic.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. Sir, at the time you were listening to this conversation, was
10 Colonel Beara known or unknown to you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And as you sit here today, sir, do you recall -- well, I'll just
13 withdraw that question.
14 Do you recall whether you were able at the time to recognise
15 Colonel Beara's voice?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And how is it that you were able to recognise Colonel Beara's
18 voice at the time you were transcribing this conversation?
19 A. We could recognise it because we heard it frequently. He would
20 introduce himself as Colonel Ljubo Beara. We could hear him frequently
21 and we could recognise his voice modulation, just like many others whose
22 conversations we intercepted. All of us on the team knew their voice
23 modulations and Beara was no exception.
24 Q. And as you sit here today, sir, can you recall anything at all
25 distinctive about Colonel Beara's voice?
1 A. Today I wouldn't be able to do that, no.
2 Q. Now, if we may turn to page 3 of the document that we've had on
3 the screen, please.
4 And if you're trying to follow in English. It's 65 ter 1179A of
5 that tab but if we -- I can put that on the ELMO but it would be
6 preferable just to keep for now the B/C/S version on the screen so that we
7 can have a legible copy. And again, the English translation is 1179A.
8 And, sir, I want to refer your attention to the last entry in both
9 versions, the English and the B/C/S. It's the last B entry. Do you see
10 that line, sir?
11 A. I see it under B, yes.
12 Q. And would you just read that line, please?
13 A. "B: I don't know what to do, Krle. I'm telling you seriously
14 there are still 3500 packages that I have to distribute and I have no
16 Q. Now, looking at that handwritten transcription, can you tell the
17 Trial Chamber what the actual word in your language is that appears after
18 3500, that number 3500?
19 A. The word is "parcels."
20 Q. And what does that word mean?
21 A. The word "paket" in our language can mean a box or a carton or
22 something that was packed to be sent somewhere. That's what the
23 word "paket" means.
24 Q. Now if we may turn to the printout, which is 65 ter 1179E,
25 please. And we won't need to look at the English version of this. I
1 think the B/C/S version speaks for itself. And if we could focus towards
2 the bottom of the document, please. Again, it's the last -- the
3 second-to-the-last entry, the last B entry.
4 On the printout, there, sir, do you see the word "paketa"?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it appears in this version to have quotation marks around it;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
9 Q. Now, as you sit here today, sir, do you have any specific
10 recollection as to how that word "paketa" ended up with quotes around it
11 in the typewritten version?
12 A. I can assume that -- well, amongst us in the team, what we
13 believed "paket" to mean --
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... interrupt you, sir. I'm just
15 asking you as you sit here today, do you have any specific recollection as
16 to how the word "paketa" ended up with quotes around it in the typewritten
18 A. I really cannot remember precisely.
19 Q. Now, sir, I want to turn your attention to another conversation.
20 And this is located at tab 3.
21 May we have 65 ter 1387A displayed on e-court, please. And if
22 you're working with a hard copy, the English translation should be located
23 right after that document at tab 3, and that is 65 ter number 1387B. If
24 we may focus on the second part of the page, please. Perfect.
25 Sir, do you recognise what's on your screen?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And what is that, sir?
3 A. [No interpretation].
4 Q. I'm not receiving translation. I don't know if --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither am I. You need to repeat your question,
6 Mr. Thayer, and he needs to repeat his answer, and we try to make sure
7 that we get interpretation.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. Sir, do you recognise what's on your screen?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And what is it, sir?
12 A. This is my handwriting of an intercept between General Krstic and
14 Q. And if you would just note for the record, sir, the information
15 that is contained in the top two lines of this handwritten entry of yours?
16 A. It says in the first line "Wednesday," and then on the second line
17 is the frequency, 245.950, the time is 9.50, and then in the continuation
18 it says: "Participants, General Krstic, Obrenovic."
19 Q. Now, sir, if you can, I'd like to turn your attention to the tenth
20 entry, if you're counting Ks and Os on the left, again it's the tenth
21 entry down. Do you see the line attributed to Obrenovic?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And rather than have me read it, if you just read it yourself out
24 loud, please, just so we understand we are on the same -- same line.
25 A. "O - Everything is, everything is going according to plan."
1 Q. Okay. Just to make it clear for the record, was there one
2 everything or two everythings in that line, sir? Didn't quite come out in
3 my translation clearly.
4 A. "We have everything, everything is going according to plan."
5 We have another line further down: "Everything is going according
6 to plan."
7 Q. Okay. I just wanted to stay focused on that line 10:
8 "Everything, everything is going according to plan."
9 Would you please read the next two entries, which would be the
10 11th and 12th entries if you're counting Ks and Os. Would you just read
11 those into the record, please.
12 A. 11: "K - Don't leave a single one alive."
13 And then 12: "O - Everything is going according to plan, full
15 Q. Now, sir, I'd just ask you with the assistance of Madam Usher to
16 take the stylus that's next to your computer, and would you please just
17 circle those two lines that you read, "don't leave a single one alive" and
18 "everything is going according to plan"?
19 A. [Marks].
20 Q. And then would you read the next entry, please?
21 A. "K - Way to go, chief. The Turks are probably listening. Let
22 them listen, the motherfuckers."
23 Q. Now those two lines that you read and circled, specifically the
24 ones that you circled, sir, do you remember whether or not they appear in
25 the printout version that you reviewed?
1 A. I don't think that they do, the last time I looked.
2 Q. Okay. Well, let's, if you would, initial with PW-133, perhaps in
3 the bottom right-hand corner, there is some clear space, just write
4 PW-133, please.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And we can save the exhibit and I think we'll be done for now with
7 that. Paragraph?
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, just because it
9 flowed rather quickly and we were trying to find it, just so the record is
10 clear, and I think there is no problem with it, but I think this
11 intercept, the Krstic/Obrenovic purported intercept, is from the 2nd of
12 August, just the way it was written, and there was no date given. He just
13 said do you recognise it, but I'm sure he'll lead him through that, but I
14 just wanted to make that point.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you for that observation.
16 Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: We'll get there, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
19 MR. THAYER:
20 Q. Now, let's look at the printout, if we may, at 1387C, please,
21 that's 65 ter 1387C. The English translation should follow it. That's 65
22 ter 1387D. And if we could scroll up just a little bit and focus on that
23 middle portion, please. A little bit higher, please.
24 Do you see a conversation in front of you, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And is the time 0950?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what this typewritten
4 conversation is?
5 A. This is a typed version of the transcription that I did in the
6 notebook by hand.
7 Q. And if we could just for the moment scroll up to the top of the
9 Do you see a date on this report anywhere, sir?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what is that date?
12 A. The date is the 2nd of August, 1995.
13 Q. Now, if we could scroll back down please and focus on that middle
14 portion again. I'd like you to go down ten entries, if you could just
15 count, like we did with your notebook?
16 A. Yes, I've counted it.
17 Q. And can you read what that line says?
18 A. "O: Everything, everything is going according to plan, full
20 Q. And can you read the next line that appears on this typewritten
22 A. "That's the way, boss, the Turks are probably listening, let them
23 listen, the motherfuckers."
24 Q. Now, sir, between the two lines you just read on this printout, is
25 there anything missing from them that appeared in your notebook, that you
1 wrote in your notebook?
2 A. I think that another part is missing. "Everything is going
3 according to plan," I think in front of that there was a sentence.
4 Let me just find it, if I can, here. I think that there was one
5 sentence before.
6 Yes. There was the sentence, "K - All right, kill them all,
7 God-damn it."
8 That's already there. Then we have: "Everything, everything is
9 going according to plan." And then underneath that in the typed version,
10 there is a sentence missing that says: "Don't leave a single one alive."
11 And then we have: "Everything is going according to plan." Those two
12 sentences are missing in the typewritten version.
13 Q. And, sir, are those the two sentences that you circled a couple of
14 minutes ago on the exhibit?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Witness, in preparing for your testimony, did you also listen to a
17 CD recording of a conversation?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And as you listened to the recording, did I ask you to try to
20 simultaneously read your handwritten transcription and compare what you
21 were hearing to your handwritten notebook entry?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you were able to
24 identify the conversation on the CD, whether you were able to make any
25 connection between the conversation on the CD and what you had transcribed
1 in your notebook that we have been discussing here at tab 3?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And what was your conclusion, sir?
4 A. The conclusion is that it's the same intercept as the one that I
5 transcribed. There are some minor things missing that I noticed, that I
6 had written down.
7 MR. THAYER: At this time may we play 65 ter 1387G, please. And
8 actually before we do that, there are a couple of ways we can deal with
9 the translations. There is a B/C/S transcript and an English transcript.
10 I can put one on the screen and one on the ELMO, or -- we can put the
11 English on the ELMO, for example, and the B/C/S speakers can just listen
12 to the tape, if --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm trying to remember how we did it the last time.
14 MR. THAYER: Last time we did nothing, Your Honour. I think we
15 just played it.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- but that was a response to a specific
17 request that we should hear the conversation without any interruptions or
18 any translation or ...
19 MR. THAYER: And I agree, Your Honour. And I was just suggesting
20 to simply put it on the ELMO so people could read along without any
21 simultaneous translation.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hear what Mr. Ostojic has to say.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Although the Zepa issue doesn't concern us directly
24 as such, Your Honour, we adopted a procedure to hear it. We've objected
25 in the past to the English translations. We continue to make the
2 Also I think it's important for the Chamber to know that there is
3 other evidence even from an expert, Dr. French, that the Prosecutor had
4 that gave an opinion on this tape. I don't want to share it. I think
5 it's their obligation to share it for a fair proceeding. And I also think
6 the position of General Krstic on this is important as well, which he had
7 a position on, which was perhaps similar to Dr. French.
8 Now, this witness can say whatever he wishes and believes. I
9 think we should just listen to the tape or not have the either English
10 version or the OTP's typed out version of it.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we -- it's the classical case of trying to
13 hit two birds with one stone.
14 In the first place, I think we need to observe the same rule that
15 we introduced last time when we heard something similar; namely, that it
16 should be heard without any other sound being piped through, but then, I
17 mean, everyone, I think, needs to know what is that recording supposed to
18 be saying. So we need to see on the monitor at least the -- what you
19 purport to be the English transcript of the conversation, leaving of
20 course all matters relative to that unprejudiced. But we need to be able
21 to follow.
22 MR. THAYER: Again, Your Honour, these are in everybody's packets
23 so they can be followed in hard copy as well, in addition what we have on
24 the ELMO. So hopefully we'll have all bases covered for all languages.
25 And it should be the last two documents in the packet, with the B/C/S
1 first, I believe, and English second.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: I just want to make sure everybody is ready to
4 proceed. I see shuffling. We are ready whenever.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can proceed. Thank you.
6 MR. THAYER: Thank you. If we may have that conversation played,
8 [Audiotape played]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not hearing anything. I don't know about
11 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I suggest unless we can resolve this in
12 the next 30 seconds we have a break coming up, we can resolve the
13 technical issues.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm afraid I can't hope you, Mr. Thayer.
15 MR. THAYER: I suggest we take a break now if we can, Your Honour,
16 to resolve the issue.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We need a 30-minute break, as I explained earlier,
18 because of the redactions.
19 Could I ask the Defence teams to liaise with our registrar, Madam
20 Registrar, to indicate more or less the time you require for your
21 cross-examinations, respective cross-examinations, please? Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I understand that one of you or more would like
1 to raise an issue. Yes, Ms. Condon?
2 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Mr. President. I wonder Your Honour, if
3 the courts would grant me an indulgence to make a brief oral motion.
4 It concerns -- there is currently on behalf of the Popovic, Beara,
5 Nikolic, Borovcanin and Pandurevic teams, there is going to be a motion
6 filed in response to this Honourable Trial Chamber's decision on the 6th
7 of December that concerns the decision in relation to the amendment to the
8 65 ter list, Your Honour, and the addition of a number of witnesses.
9 As it currently stands, the motion is beyond the word limit that's
10 prescribed according to the rules of this Tribunal, and as I understand
11 the practice direction of the 16th of September, 2005, Article 7, we have
12 to make a submission based on the fact that there is exceptional
13 circumstances for it to exceed the 3.000 word limit.
14 Your Honour, essentially they are these, that the motion does
15 descend into quite a lot of detail, not superfluous detail obviously in
16 our view, in relation to ICTY -- this Tribunal's jurisdiction and the
17 jurisdiction of the ICTR, and as a result, it's currently -- I think it
18 stands at 4.300 words, so it's some a thousand over the limit. So I make
19 that application that we propose to file the motion today, but we do so in
20 circumstances where it's currently over the limit and seek a ruling from
21 the Trial Chamber that we can file it in that form.
22 Thank you, Your Honour.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So the response is, it's Christmas, permission
1 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Especially since you are not exceeding it by
3 inconsiderate measures, so permission granted.
4 MS. CONDON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything else that you would like to raise? None?
6 Let's bring the witness in, please.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So, can we proceed with the audio?
9 MR. THAYER: We may, Your Honour. I think we have resolved the
10 technical difficulties. And if we may play 65 ter 1387G, please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: By the way, the witness ought to know that it is
12 probably not possible with -- to finish with his testimony today. I mean,
13 I -- particularly since the Beara team requires two hours so -- but if you
14 can reduce that we can possibly make it.
15 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
16 [Audiotape played]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't remember if you did indicate the -- any
18 reference number in relation to this audio. No, it's 65 ter 1387.
19 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Your Honour, G.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: G. And audio T 0000822; is that correct?
21 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.
23 MR. THAYER:
24 Q. Witness, a little while ago, you read and circled two lines which
25 were in your notebook but not in the printout, Krstic is saying, "Don't
1 leave a single one alive" and Obrenovic saying, "Everything is going
2 according to plan."
3 Were you able to hear those two lines just now, as you listened to
4 the recording?
5 A. Oh, yes, I heard it.
6 Q. And turning your attention to that portion of the conversation,
7 did you hear anything on the recording which was not in your handwritten
8 notebook entry?
9 A. Yes. I did.
10 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber some examples of what you
11 heard but did not write down in the notebook?
12 A. Well, if I remember well, I know that I didn't write down the
13 introductory part where they say "hello, hello," where they are being
14 connected through the switchboard, and generally I did not record such
15 things. That's -- I wanted to record the important things. That's what I
16 was aiming at. And then there were additional minor words such as "all
17 right" or "hello" or "we'll be in touch" or "we'll speak later," I did not
18 consider these things important. That's why I omitted them.
19 And the only sentence that is missing from the written text is the
20 one that I heard that is missing from the written text. Otherwise it's
21 the same conversation.
22 Q. Okay. You just referred to some missing text or conversation that
23 you heard. Do you recall, as you sit here as having just listened to
24 that, what that missing section is that was not in your notebook but that
25 you just heard? And if we need to look at the transcript to help identify
1 that, please do so. Is it still on the screen in B/C/S?
2 If you-- turning to your packet -- I'll just make this simpler.
3 Turn to your packet, sir, the last tab, tab 3, there should be a B/C/S
4 translation of the intercept that you just listened to, an actual
5 translation. Okay.
6 A. Yes, yes. I can see it here.
7 Q. If we could scroll up just a little bit, is there -- is there --
8 and just -- is there a portion of this transcript that was not in your
9 notebook? Does this help you recall what you heard that was not in your
11 A. This thing at the top, can we go back to the top? Can we scroll
12 up? What I heard is this: Just a moment. And then we lost the
13 connection with the switchboard. And then Krstic says "hello," and then
14 that's what I didn't write down, even though I heard it on the tape. I
15 started from this moment when Obrenovic speaks and then Krstic speaks
16 again. So that's the portion that's omitted that I did not transcribe.
17 And then can we scroll down, please, towards the middle? Yes?
18 The sentence that was missing from the typewritten text is "don't leave a
19 single one of them alive." It's here but not in the typewritten text.
20 And then -- and then I omitted the question mark. And then I also did not
21 record this sentence that is repeated, "don't leave a single one of them
23 I generally, as a rule, did not record repeated sentences because
24 I did this in haste and I wanted to save time, so that's why I generally
25 did not record this. Everything else is the same.
1 Q. Okay, sir. You referred to a question mark. If we are looking at
2 the B/C/S translation, can you identify what you were referring to, and if
3 it helps to count the Ks and Os going from top to bottom, to help identify
4 the precise section of this transcript that you're talking about.
5 A. Could you zoom out so that I can count the lines. Yes.
6 In this typewritten version or whatever it is, first it goes X and
7 then colon and then: "Just a moment," I don't have it there. And then:
8 "O: We lost the connection with the switchboard," I don't have that.
9 And then Krstic says: "Hello," I don't have it in my version. And
10 then O says: "Yes." And then Krstic says: "It's Krstic, hello," I don't
11 have that either. And then Obrenovic says: "Yes." And then from this
12 moment on, when Krstic says: "Obrenovic, I'm recording from there on.
13 But, for example, I omitted Krstic is here. And then they are greeting
14 each other, and I have that recorded. And they are speaking of their
15 health, well, it wasn't terribly important for me either but I did record
17 All right. And then they say: "Don't leave a single one alive,
18 kill them all." No. We've come to line number 21. Line 21, in the
19 typewritten version.
20 Q. What is that line, sir, just so we're clear?
21 A. When K says: "Kill them all, God-damn it." In my version, that's
22 line 9 because I omitted certain things. And then they say: "Everything,
23 everything is going according to plan." That's fine. And then: "Don't
24 leave a single one alive." Yes, that's the same as in mine. And then I
25 omitted this yes, where Obrenovic says yes. And then he repeated on the
1 tape: "Not a single one must be left alive." I didn't record that
2 because I did not want to repeat the same sentence. And then the next one
3 is all right and the next one is all right. And then all right again.
4 And then O says: "He went up towards you." That's fine too.
5 Can I see the next page in the typewritten version?
6 And then they say: "When today" and then I omitted the word
7 "yes," or "really." And then the next one is all right. And then I
8 recorded "this morning," and then I omitted "yes." And then he says: "Go
9 on, we'll be in touch." I omitted the word "lets." I didn't think it
10 important because it didn't change the meaning of the sentence. Whatever
11 did not affect the meaning of the sentence, I omitted. And then --
12 Q. Let me stop you right there, sir. I didn't mean for you to go
13 through the entire conversation but I thank you for that.
14 Other than the examples that you gave, were there any other words
15 or conversation that you heard listening to this tape that weren't in your
16 notebook or in the transcription which you believe alter the meaning in
17 any way?
18 A. No. I didn't find that. It did not affect the meaning. The
19 meaning was not lost.
20 Q. Now, sir, I want to -- just my last question. I reviewed the --
21 your testimony from before the break, and there was one question and
22 answer that appear just a little bit unclear in the answer, so just to
23 clarify the record I want to ask you the question again. And that's at
24 page 25, line 15.
25 I asked you the question: "Sir, at the time you were listening to
1 this conversation," and we were referring to the first conversation we
2 discussed between Colonel Beara and General Krstic, the question I asked
3 was: "Sir, at the time you were listening to this conversation, was
4 Colonel Beara unknown -- I'm sorry, was Colonel Beara known or unknown to
5 you," and your answer was yes. And that -- as I read it, is a little
6 ambiguous so I'm just asking you if you can clarify your answer to that,
8 A. Well, yes. His voice was familiar to me. I knew his name,
9 although I did not know him personally.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. I don't have any further questions for you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.
12 I take it that the Popovic team is going first? Okay, it's --
13 MR. OSTOJIC: I think we agreed I would go first, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. There is an agreement, so I think the Beara
15 team then, Mr. Ostojic.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to put you in the picture, with the time left,
18 we have -- I have an indication that the Popovic team will take 30
19 minutes, Beara two hours, the Nikolic team 20 minutes, the Borovcanin 15
20 minutes, and the Miletic 15 minutes, and the other two indication is that
21 you will not need to cross-examine the witness.
22 So that brings us to three hours 20 minutes. I don't know, we
23 are -- yes, Mr. Sarapa.
24 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I would like to address the Chamber.
25 We will probably have two questions only and it won't take more than five
1 to ten minutes, and there is a chance that we won't put any questions at
2 all, in case what we are interested in is covered by some other Defence
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Very kind of you to note that, thank you.
5 Mr. Ostojic.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
8 Q. Good morning, sir.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... perhaps we can start with
11 your familiarity with the voice of Mr. Beara. Can you tell me, sir, how
12 often you heard his voice in 1995?
13 A. In 1995, one could hear it frequently, not only on one channel but
14 on several other channels, one could hear his voice. Some conversations
15 were not important so we did not record them.
16 Q. Okay. But of the ones that you recorded, do you know how many are
17 in your book, in July of 1995?
18 A. I wouldn't be able to say.
19 Q. Well, when you met with the Office of the Prosecutor did you try
20 to go through the books a little bit?
21 A. I went through the material that was in my handwriting.
22 Q. Well, to the best of your recollection, did you pick out any
23 purported conversation that you intercepted where Mr. Beara was involved
25 A. I didn't pay attention to that.
1 Q. Now, how many times did you meet with Mr. Thayer or the Office of
2 the Prosecutor in preparation for your testimony here today?
3 A. I would have to check that and I would need to have more time
4 because I was here two weeks ago, then I went home, then I came back
5 again, so I wouldn't be able to give you the exact number. I met with him
6 at least on five occasions, at least, but I would need to verify that.
7 Q. That's fair. And I'm sure we could get that from my learned
9 Sir, can you tell us when the first time it is that you told the
10 Office of the Prosecutor or its investigators that you were familiar with
11 Mr. Beara's voice?
12 A. Once again, the question is such that I can't give you a very
13 specific answer because I generally don't pay attention to the time and
14 date when I'm meeting with somebody. I really wouldn't be able to help
15 you there.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you can tell us whether this happened
17 during this last recent occasion since you have arrived this time to give
18 testimony here, this last week. Or whether you had made that statement
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the past week, yes, I said
21 that. I stated that. I don't know how many times. And I think that I
22 even said that previously, because that's a fact that is true, at the time
23 I used to recognise it.
24 MR. OSTOJIC:
25 Q. Now, sir, tell me if you recall ever telling the investigator
1 Stefanie Frease in 1999 when you met with her that you were familiar with
2 Mr. Beara's voice?
3 A. I know that when giving my last statement, I wasn't able to recall
4 that, but in this last period, yes, I know that I definitely told her
5 that. But the statement before that is a bit unclear in my mind. I
6 remembered the name and everything but I couldn't remember the content of
7 the text. But when Stefanie Frease came I could remember, yes, then.
8 And then several years passed and then this was not something that
9 I tried to remember because now that I'm living a civilian life, just an
10 everyday life, I don't try to remember things. You know, once I leave
11 these premises I just forget everything.
12 Q. Sir, we have your information report from Stefanie Frease from
13 1999. No where does it mention that you told her that you were familiar
14 and had purportedly had heard Mr. Beara's voice frequently. Are you aware
15 of that?
16 A. Well, yes, if that's how it was then, I gave my answers at the
17 time as I remembered, and then I guess several years later, some other
18 recollections come to the surface, or somebody tells me something, and
19 well, I can't really explain that.
20 Q. I'm not sure I understand what you mean if somebody tells you
21 something. Like, for example, if Mr. Thayer or someone from the Office of
22 the Prosecutor reminds you that you remembered someone's voice, is that
23 what you're talking about, sir?
24 A. No, no, not that. Not that. It's just that if I take again the
25 document that I wrote, if I try to cast my mind back to those days, I knew
1 that I could recognise his voice at the time.
2 When Stefanie Frease came to see me for the first time, I
3 naturally couldn't remember the exact timbre of his voice, but I told you
4 then that at the time when we were at that elevation, I could clearly and
5 easily recognise his voice.
6 Q. And she just failed to put that in the information report in 1999;
8 A. I apologise. What is it that she did not put in?
9 Q. That you recalled Mr. Beara's voice.
10 A. I don't know what she put in. I don't even remember that
11 conversation now, to tell you the truth. It was a long time ago. So I
12 can't say anything very specific about it.
13 Q. Well, in preparation for your testimony, I understood that you had
14 not only gone through it with Mr. Thayer and a translator. Did you also
15 go through the information report of 1999, just recently?
16 A. Information report. Well, the translator read to me over 120
17 pages of that material. Now, you know, 120 pages, I don't know whether I
18 can remember everything that was contained there. It was simply too much
19 for my brain to have all of that read to me but we did cover all that
21 Q. Sir, do you know in June of 2000 that you testified in the Krstic
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know, sir, at that time, that you did not and were not
25 asked any questions about recognising or recalling recognising Mr. Beara's
1 voice; is that correct?
2 A. I don't remember that at all.
3 Q. How about the March 2001 Krstic testimony that you gave? You
4 recall you gave testimony in Krstic in March 2001; correct?
5 A. I know that I came here, yes.
6 Q. Do you remember, sir, that in that -- March 2001 when you gave
7 testimony that at no time do you mention that you recall Mr. Beara's
9 A. No, I don't remember that.
10 Q. Do you remember the November 2003 Blagojevic testimony that you
11 gave, sir?
12 A. Yes. I remember that I came here in connection with that.
13 Q. Let's be fair. You remember it even better than that because you
14 just reviewed it recently, right?
15 A. I did go through it.
16 Q. Do you remember, sir, as you sit here now that in the Blagojevic
17 November 2003 testimony no where do you state that you recall Mr. Beara's
18 voice or -- voice? I don't want to have a compound issue.
19 A. No. I don't remember. I don't remember if anybody asked me that.
20 Q. Do you recall, sir, as you sit here now in the Blagojevic November
21 2003 testimony that in fact no where did you state that you recall
22 Mr. Beara's voice frequently?
23 A. I don't remember stating something like that. All I remember is
24 that at that time we did recognise his voice. The other things that
25 happened over the years, I can't remember.
1 Q. Sir, I don't mean to interrupt you or to be rude with this
2 question: At this time, though, I'm not interested in what "we"
3 remembered. I'm interested only in what you, sir, remembered. And I note
4 in your testimony you even on page 25, line 24, state "we."
5 I want to know from you, sir, and only you, not this "we," because
6 I'm sure Mr. Thayer can help you there but the "we" that -- the you is
7 what I'm interested in, not the "we."
8 As you sit here, sir, can you tell me when it was the first time
9 that you told the Office of the Prosecutor that you recollect Mr. Ljubisa
10 Beara's voice and that you had heard it frequently?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think from my recollection, he has already
12 answered that question.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: But he's always answered it with "we" and I'm now
14 specifying only him. So that's the only --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But I suppose what he is telling you is that they
16 worked as a team.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll hear it from him.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: He's explained during the examination-in-chief that
19 he and his colleagues used to hear -- this is his statement -- used to
20 hear, allegedly, Mr. Beara in conversations, so ...
21 MR. OSTOJIC:
22 Q. Sir, am I correct that you do not recall what, if any, distinctive
23 feature about Mr. Beara's voice?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I hate to interrupt you but he's already
25 answered that question. It was put to him and he said no, I don't recall
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. Sir, in the transcript earlier today when your summary was read on
4 page 5, lines 22 through 24, it states that in the spring of 1994, you
5 were transferred to the site, which I think we are calling the southern
6 site, if we may. Is that accurate? That it was in the spring of 1994, as
7 Mr. Thayer read your summary?
8 A. In 1994, I was transferred to short-wave listening. That wasn't
9 the last elevation, but the last elevation where we were working from was
10 actually in the spring of 1995.
11 Q. So when were you transferred to that last elevation, the spring of
12 1995, not 1994; correct?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Can you be more specific and tell us when in the spring of 1995
15 you were transferred to the southern location?
16 A. It could have been April, maybe March. I'm not sure about the
17 month now, and even before, I didn't really make inquiries from people in
18 charge about that specific date, so I really can't say.
19 Q. Now, at this southern site, sir, am I correct that there were two
20 squads that worked there?
21 A. Squad, yes, and its replacement, yes, in terms of time, yes,
22 you're right.
23 Q. And the squads were divided up and one squad was comprised of
24 people from Kladanj, right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the other squad was composed of people from Banovici; correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: [Previous translation continues] ... if we can go
4 into private session for one question.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that.
6 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 MR. OSTOJIC:
17 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a question regarding the rules regarding
18 safekeeping of the notebooks. Am I correct that you did not have any
19 rules regarding the safekeeping of these notebooks, these notebooks or any
20 other documents that you were issued?
21 A. There was a standard procedure, according to which the notebooks
22 that were used would be left at a place, and then the commander of the
23 squad would then take charge of these notebooks. We didn't really busy
24 ourselves with that that much.
25 Q. Okay. Well, let me read to you from your testimony from Krstic,
1 22nd of June, 2000. You were asked, I think, a similar question, and it
2 starts on page 4467, line 25: "Did you have any rules regarding the
3 safekeeping of these documents?"
4 And then it goes to the next page, 4468, lines 1 and 2, but I'll
5 read the question, sir. It says: "Did you have any rules regarding the
6 safekeeping of these documents, these notebooks or any other documents
7 that you were issued?"
8 Your answer, sir, on line 2 was: "No."
9 Is that accurate?
10 A. That's exactly what I said before. There was no written rule but
11 there was a standard practice the way I explained earlier. That was it.
12 Q. Well, I don't recall the question in Krstic asked you for written
13 rules, did it?
14 I'll read it again. "Did you have any rules regarding the
15 safekeeping of these documents, these notebooks or any other documents
16 that you were issued?"
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think the question has been asked and
19 he has a fair answer to the question. And whether there were any rules he
20 explained himself and I think --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it goes beyond that.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's true that has been partly answered but I think
24 the question goes a little bit beyond what was dealt with before.
25 So please proceed, Mr. Ostojic.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. Should I restate my question, Your Honour, or
2 I should ask the witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I should think so because you have already phrased
4 it slightly differently on two occasions.
5 MR. OSTOJIC:
6 Q. Sir, my question is that you recall in Krstic that when you were
7 asked this question we just covered and the answer that you gave, the
8 question wasn't limited to written rules, was it? The question in fact
9 stated any rules.
10 A. I don't really remember what you're asking me from the Krstic
11 case, but really perhaps I can reply now how it was, how we worked. I
12 don't remember too many things from the Krstic case. I cannot remember.
13 Q. We'll get to that, I'm sure. In your summary that Mr. Thayer
14 wrote out, he states that at the southern site, or I think he called it
15 the other site there was "the established procedures."
16 Let's talk about those established procedures, if you don't mind.
17 What was the rule or the established procedure with respect to initialing
18 or signing the conversation that you purportedly intercepted?
19 A. Let me first try to explain southern and the other location. The
20 second location was the location where I wasn't at the beginning, and --
21 Q. If I can just have the Court instruct the witness just to answer
22 the question. He doesn't have to go to the other location. We are
23 interested obviously in this location in July of 1995 at the moment.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's correct. Perhaps, Witness, you can
25 restrict yourself to answering that question and forget the other
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. Mr. Witness, sir, would you like me to restate the question?
4 A. Yes, yes, I do.
5 Q. Sir, what was the rule or the established procedure in July 1995
6 at the southern location with respect to initialing or signing the
7 conversations that you purportedly intercepted?
8 A. I don't remember that. I didn't put my initials down.
9 Q. Do you know if there was such a rule written or oral that you were
10 required to do so?
11 A. Well, since I didn't do it, obviously I didn't think that it was
12 something that you had to do or that it was part of the procedure.
13 Perhaps somebody did do it, but I personally did not.
14 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the rule or the established procedures
15 with respect to dating a conversation. Same time period, July of 1995.
16 What were they?
17 A. I know of the rule that when you are typing it into the computer,
18 you had to put the date. That was the rule. When I transcribed the
19 intercepts from the tapes, it was normal to assume that the date was
20 already entered in the computer so sometimes I would put it down and
21 sometimes I would not, depending on the work and the time. But I didn't
22 really troubled with that -- I wasn't really troubled by that because I
23 knew that the date would automatically be entered into the computer, so I
24 knew that that would happen.
25 Q. So did you have a rule about that or didn't you in connection with
1 your notebooks?
2 A. I do not recall that rule. Had somebody come to me and placed a
3 written order in front of me and said, You have to put that in, I would
4 have done it. But I just did it the way we were used to doing based on
5 our experience. It was important for me to have the participants, the
6 time, the channel, sometimes -- well, we didn't really need the channels
7 because we knew which channels we were working on. Some people put that
8 in, some didn't. That's my answer.
9 Q. Thank you. What was the rule or established procedure relating to
10 accuracy or precision?
11 A. We had to be as precise as possible so that the sentences wouldn't
12 lose their meaning. The most important procedure was to keep the meaning
13 in the sentence; otherwise, why would we be doing it? I mean, we were
14 there to do this job, so we did our best, that everything was done
15 properly and correctly, that it had meaning.
16 We all abbreviated it in the way we felt was possible. The way I
17 was doing it is that I would omit certain unimportant words. The
18 procedure was not to be wrong in the sense of the sentence or in the
19 meaning when you were passing it on. That was the most important thing.
20 Of course, also it was important to write in the time, the participants,
21 because that's what was entered into the computer and that is what is
22 forwarded then to the command or to the centre. That was important to us.
23 Q. Am I correct, sir, that despite your efforts to be as precise as
24 possible, there were many, many reasons why that was difficult to achieve?
25 A. There weren't many but sometimes there were reasons, yes, I
1 remember that.
2 Q. Okay. Well, let's stick with the many. I said it twice. I'm
3 suggesting to you, sir, that there were not just many reasons but there
4 were many, many reasons why that was difficult to achieve, that accuracy.
5 Would I be wrong?
6 A. There were many reasons. It's different when it's many reasons at
7 one point in time and then when we have many reasons over a certain period
8 of time. Sometimes there would be different reasons during different time
9 periods. Sometimes at one moment you would have different reasons. But
10 many reasons distributed over time and the dispatches, I cannot speak
11 about one dispatch because I cannot say that there were too many reasons
12 at the same time, that we would have such a case where we would have a lot
13 of reasons in one particular case at one particular point in time.
14 Q. Okay. Well, help me reconcile this, then: In your testimony on
15 the 22nd of June, 2000 in the Krstic case, you were asked this question on
16 line 19, page 4472: "In view of the nature of the conversation, the
17 nature of the conversation, I assume you made an effort to note down every
18 word accurately as taped; is that correct?"
19 Your answer, sir, under oath that appears on line 22 through 23 is
20 as follows: "We did our best to be as precise as possible. However,
21 there are many, many reasons why that was very difficult to achieve."
22 Do you remember giving that testimony in Krstic, sir?
23 A. Yes, I do. But then and now I think the same thing. Not at one
24 point in time. There were many reasons divided over a certain period of
1 Q. Well, share with us, sir, what those many, many reasons were that
2 made it very difficult for you to achieve accuracy and precision.
3 A. It's like this: One then we'll go on. One of the reasons was
4 that if at that point in time there was a lot of electrical discharge in
5 the air, there was a lot of crackling, a lot of noise, that would be one
7 Another reason, for example, would be if the tape was old and
8 mostly the tapes were old, that had been rerecorded several times, there
9 would be a kind of hum on the tape itself, and the more often you
10 rerecorded over a certain tape, the hum would be louder.
11 Then there would be a third reason where a section of the tape
12 would be damaged. It was a little damaged, so it would be very difficult
13 to transcribe a word. Sometimes it would be impossible.
14 Another reason would be that it was windy at that point in time
15 and the antenna had turned to a degree from its normal position so that
16 the signal was much worse.
17 The fourth reason was that the side where the telephones were
18 would change their direction, that there was another point of transfer of
19 the telephone signals so we couldn't cover that part that was perhaps
20 overshadowed by a hill and it was a way from us.
21 A sixth reason, for example, was that along the line from the
22 point where we were listening to, I could draw that very easily for you,
23 if we were on the same line the listening point, their first antenna, and
24 their second antenna, and this antenna was directed there, and the other
25 one was there, and ours was directed there, then the first device would be
1 actually receiving the signal from the back so then you would have a very
2 bad signal or no signal almost.
3 I could remember other reasons also, perhaps, but right now, I'm
4 trying. I mean, if you would like to know more about technical matters,
5 it's possible, for example --
6 Q. I didn't mean to interrupt the witness, Your Honour. I thought he
7 paused. But go ahead, if you have something else to say. Go ahead,
9 A. Sometimes it would happen that at the point of transcribing a
10 dispatch or receiving it, the device would break down. This did happen
11 sometimes. Sometimes there would be no electricity. It was war. So then
12 we would have to run to turn the generator on while this was being done.
13 There were many such factors. But again, it all depended. I
14 mean, none of -- not all of these things could happen at one point in
16 As I said, there were many reasons. And this is my explanation of
17 what I said.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, at this southern site was there anyone
19 who was specifically assigned to analyse these texts or handwritten
20 purported intercepted conversations?
21 A. From what I know, there was nobody who was entrusted with a
22 detailed analysis of these intercepts.
23 Q. Sir, can you tell me who would then make the decision, if an
24 intercept was urgent or priority?
25 A. Each operator, according to his conscience, would decide what was
1 important, what we felt was important, what was not. That's how it was.
2 Q. And if it was important, would you then denote it with the
3 word "priority" or with the word "urgent"?
4 A. I personally would never do that. If something was really urgent
5 and important, I would immediately -- actually, the guy who was typing, he
6 was always with us, we would immediately try to type out the dispatch and
7 send it.
8 Q. Well, you know there were daily dispatches that were sent out as
9 well, correct, at that time?
10 A. Yes. If some less important or unimportant dispatches piled up,
11 this would be sent off again. But if something was really urgent,
12 something that we felt was urgent, we would send it off immediately.
13 Q. Of the three conversations that you have in the binder before you,
14 do you know if any of them were marked with the denotation of being
16 A. I really can't remember something like that.
17 Q. Okay. I'm not asking to you remember back 11 years ago. I know
18 it's a long time. Take a look at them. Did you find the word "urgent" on
19 any of those three intercepts that are in front of you, in either the
20 written logbook or in the typed out version?
21 A. I don't see the word "urgent" in any of these and I never wrote it
23 Q. What about the word "priority"? Do you see that word in any of
24 those three intercepts?
25 A. I don't see it, and I don't think that I would find it because I
1 never used to write it out. This is my experience at the time?
2 Q. Well, how about the typed version that the typist typed out from
3 your handwritten notes? If you had that communication, you would tell
4 them something was important. Would you then expect them to write it in
5 the typed out version? The words either "urgent" or "priority"?
6 A. I did not ask him to write that down. He had his own procedure
7 that was set by the centre and given to him, so I didn't interfere much
8 with that.
9 Q. We'll ask him that when he comes, okay, that's fair.
10 Sir, let me ask you this: How many tapes or CDs, I think as the
11 Prosecutor called it, how many CDs did you listen to when you were
12 visiting with Mr. Thayer in these past - I forget what you said - few days
13 or 15 days?
14 A. I don't know how many CDs but I listened to it twice, and then it
15 would be repeated again. So I would hear it over three times altogether.
16 I don't know how many CDs there were altogether.
17 Q. Well, how many conversations did you listen to, separate and
18 independent conversations that you listened to?
19 A. I listened to this intercept between General Krstic and Obrenovic.
20 Can I look further?
21 Q. Yes, please.
22 A. This intercept --
23 Q. That one of August 2nd between Krstic and Obrenovic; correct?
24 A. Yes, I listened to that one definitely.
25 Q. Did at any time, sir, you -- did the -- at any time -- strike
2 Did the Office of the Prosecutor at any time provide you with a
3 tape which purports to bear the voice of Mr. Beara?
4 A. Can I just look at that, please? I didn't listen to this
5 conversation. No, I can't recall listening to it on the CD, no.
6 Q. You're referring to the conversation that's on tab 1 in the book;
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But my question might be a little broader than that. Did they
10 have you listen to any tape -- purported taped conversation which has
11 allegedly Mr. Ljubisa Beara's voice on it, not limiting it to just tab 1?
12 A. I wouldn't say so, no.
13 Q. Sir, let's talk about the actual procedure that you used in July
14 of 1995 when you first as an operator heard a voice on the radio, am I
15 correct, sir, that then you would begin recording or taping the
16 conversation regardless of its importance; correct?
17 A. In case of any intercept, we would depress the pause button and
18 then later on, if we saw that it wasn't interesting, we wouldn't -- we
19 would erase it. Sometimes we even recorded conversations only from the
20 middle onwards.
21 Q. Okay. And, sir, after listening to the conversation, it was then
22 actually later when the operator had time that the conversation would be
23 transcribed into a notebook; correct?
24 A. That depended on what we had decided about what was important and
25 what wasn't. As I said to you, if it was important we would immediately
1 give it to the operator to transcribe it. If it wasn't important, we
2 would do it later, an hour or two or three hours later or whenever we had
4 Q. Okay. Well, let's look at your testimony in Krstic again, the
5 22nd of June, 2000.
6 Sir, did you not -- or I'm sorry, did you, not the OTP, state in
7 describing the procedure step by step that: "when the conversation is
8 over, we switch off the tape recorder, take a pencil and notebook and
9 record, transcribe the conversation that was taped on the tape." Correct?
10 I thought I gave the page number but I'll give it just in
11 case, 4455. It starts actually on 4454 through 4455.
12 A. That's how we did it definitely if the conversation was important.
13 If it wasn't important, we would wait for the channel to continue and then
14 we would transcribe it all at the same time.
15 Q. So am I correct, sir, that these logbooks or at least the notes
16 that you have in front of you, they were not done simultaneously or
17 contemporaneously while listening to the tape itself. They were actually
18 written in after the conversation was over. Correct?
19 A. I didn't quite understand your question. Could you please repeat
21 Q. I will.
22 A. Slowly.
23 Q. I will. I'm not sure -- I think we maybe both said it to say it
24 slowly, so I will do that. Thank you.
25 Sir, in connection with these notebooks or logbooks, not
1 specifically those that you have in front of you but a general question,
2 am I correct, sir, given the procedure that you just described, the
3 purported intercept conversation was not taken down simultaneously or
4 contemporaneously while listening to the tape itself but it was done, as
5 you say, later; correct?
6 A. If it was a longer intercept, then naturally that had to be done
7 later. We couldn't do it by memory. But if it was something really
8 short, for example, some new information was being given, then, yes. For
9 example, if they were disclosing a new frequency or something like that,
10 then, yes, we could do it right away, but a longer intercept, no.
11 Q. I need to figure out, sir, how many notebooks were at this
12 southern site. Am I correct that two people were not using two different
13 notebooks and that at any given time only one notebook was used; correct?
14 A. If we had only one, then we used only one. If we had two, since
15 we had three or four pieces of equipment, then we would use more. It
16 depended on how many notebooks we had, how many we received from the
17 operations centre. If we had some spare ones, then, yes; if we didn't
18 have any spare ones, then, no.
19 Q. Okay. Well, let me read what you said in the Krstic case on the
20 22nd of June, 2000, and it was a question that the Honourable Judge Wald
21 asked you, and the question was on page 4481, line 22 through 25 and then
22 it proceeds on the next page, page 4482, lines 1 through 5.
23 The Honourable Judge Wald: "This leads me to a question you
24 probably answered but I want to make sure I understood the answer. Was
25 only one person in your unit at a time using a single notebook?"
1 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please read slower, Mr. Ostojic.
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. "This leads me to a question you probably answered but I want to
4 make sure I've understood the answer. Was only one person in your unit at
5 a time using a single notebook? In other words, was only one man
6 listening and recording in a notebook at a single time? Two people were
7 not using two different notebooks at the same time, or were they?"
8 Your answer, sir, was: "No."
9 And then the Honourable Judge Wald proceeds with another
10 question: "Just one notebook at the time, right?"
11 Your answer: "At a given time, only one notebook."
12 That was your testimony that you gave in question -- while being
13 questioned by Judge Wald. Can you tell me, sir, now whether or not it was
14 one notebook that was used in July of 1995 at the southern site?
15 A. I can't tell you that, how many notebooks we had, how many we
16 used. I can't remember.
17 Q. Do you remember as you sit here, sir, the period of July 5th
18 through July 14th, 1995? Do you recall what event occurred during that
19 period of time?
20 A. Could you be more specific. Events relating to what?
21 Q. Okay. Relating to Srebrenica.
22 A. Well, yes. Based on the dispatches that we transcribed, we could
23 get a pretty good idea of what was happening down there.
24 Q. And if I tell you that the enclave, Srebrenica, fell on or about
25 July 10th, 1995, you would recall that, right?
1 A. No, I wouldn't.
2 Q. Would you accept that as a premise in my -- for my next question,
3 sir? Would that be okay? Let's assume that, okay? Can we agree on that?
4 A. Yes, we can.
5 Q. If I'm wrong, then everybody will know some of your answers may
6 have been inaccurate. Fair enough?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Would you expect, sir, that the period right before the fall of
9 Srebrenica and immediately after the fall of Srebrenica would have been
10 when your job as an intercept operator at the southern facility would have
11 been probably most important in order to determine what the people you
12 were listening in on were actually planning and doing. Correct?
13 A. We must have received something from the command, a letter or an
14 order concerning the antennas that were used for wire-tapping, the angle,
15 the elevation and so on. I don't know what they wanted to know at the
16 command. I don't know that, but we definitely complied with their order.
17 I wouldn't be able to tell you anything myself. It's not like I
18 wanted to intercept this conversation or that conversation. It was simply
19 followed the order, we turned antennas in the ordered direction, and we
20 intercepted the conversations.
21 Q. Well, let's take a look at your book number 22 where some of the
22 conversations that you noted in that book.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: And with the Court's permission and the OTP's
24 assistance if we could have the original book be placed on the ELMO,
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Thayer.
2 MR. THAYER: It's coming right up, Your Honour.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: And then if we can, on e-court, have P02331, that
4 was I think the -- notebook 22, be placed on e-court for everyone to see.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's notebook 22.
6 THE REGISTRAR: It would be P --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: 2736 and not 2731. I don't know. I mean, I stand
8 to be corrected, but that's the indication that I have here.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm just going by this outline. I'm not sure which
10 one it is. If the Court thinks it's -- it's notebook 22, and I apologise
11 for this.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's no apology needed.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, the cover, if we can put the cover on the ELMO,
14 then ...
15 Q. Sir, we've learned some things -- if I may proceed. We've learned
16 some things about these books over the course of the last couple of
17 weeks. And am I correct that the date the book was delivered,
18 specifically book number 22, is June 14th, 1995; correct?
19 A. Whether it was delivered to our elevation? Is that what you're
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Huh, I can't remember that exact date. Maybe it's something on
23 the notebook but is not clearly visible.
24 Q. Well, flip to the -- flip the first page, if you want, on your
25 right and maybe you could find it. See it to your right, sir? No, a
1 little further. There you go.
2 A. Could you zoom out, please.
3 Q. It's right there next to you, no? Okay, sir. See the lady?
4 A. I'm looking at.
5 Q. Okay, okay. The original is there if you have trouble reading the
6 copy. Okay?
7 A. Okay, I can see it now.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
9 A. What are you interested in?
10 Q. I want to know when the date the book was delivered to your squad.
11 I know it's the next page but -- it's the next page, I think, sir.
12 A. The cover page tells me nothing, only if I would be allowed to
13 leaf through it and to look at the dates.
14 Q. And that's why I gave you the book, the original to your right so
15 just leaf through it and tell me if you could determine what date it was
16 delivered. Just turn the one page over?
17 A. May I take it?
18 Q. Please. Do you see it on the top left-hand corner there is some
19 handwriting and it seems to be a date of 14 June 1995? Do you see that?
20 A. Yes, I agree.
21 Q. Okay. The first entry in this book, sir, was made on what date?
22 A. The first entry was 03.07.95.
23 Q. The time for that first entry, sir, was 03:14; do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Does that mean that this conversation was captured then at 3.14 in
1 the morning or at 3.14 in the afternoon?
2 A. Since I didn't record it, I can't tell you. Had I recorded it in
3 the afternoon I would have said 1514, and had I recorded it in the morning
4 I would have said 0314. I don't know what this person had in mind when
5 they did it.
6 Q. The next entry, sir, is a date of July 4th, 1995, correct, at
8 A. Just a minute. 4th of July, 1995 is the next entry.
9 Q. There is two entries for the 4th of July, at 1342 and at 1750,
10 correct, being two conversations that were captured?
11 A. Yes. But up here, the date is in red pencil and then there is
12 something corrected. First it said 05 and then somebody added in
13 pencil 09.
14 Q. We'll get to that in a second. I'm really just focussing on the
15 4th of July. There's two conversations that I thought I saw on that book
16 for the 4th of July. And what I'm asking you, sir, on that book that you
17 have in front of you, the original, what is the next date after the 4th of
18 July that there seems to be a notation of a date for an intercepted
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
21 And Usher, you need to help the witness a little bit because we
22 can barely see what is on the ELMO.
23 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I was just going to ask for perhaps an
25 ERN reference just so we have some clarity for the record later on,
1 because we haven't had any identifying --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So what appears on the ELMO at the moment is
3 a page with ERN 0080-4528.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: And then I would like, if we could, 26 and 27. I
5 think they are just the two prior pages.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And we have also seen 0080-4527. And the very
7 first transcript on page 0080-4526.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: You mean the first page, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And perhaps we can go also to the first page
10 where there is the date.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: On the left side.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, that's the other one, yes. And we also saw
13 the page from this notebook with ERN number 0080-4525.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
15 Q. Now, sir, could we go to the page that you said there might have
16 been a change from a 5 to a 9 which is I think 0080-4528? Thank you.
17 Do you have that page in front of you, sir? Now, my question,
18 though, is the prior page had July 4th written on it. This page has
19 July 9th written on it. Can you tell us, sir, what happened to July 5th,
20 6th, 7th, and 8th?
21 A. I can only suppose.
22 Q. Okay. We don't want you to speculate, sir. But let me ask you
23 this: Where do you see a change from 5 to a 9 on this Exhibit 4528? It's
24 in the top portion; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The only reason I ask is there is another 09-07 -- I mean dot 07
2 dot 95 so it's the top portion that you see that; correct? The first 9 on
3 that page; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know who wrote in 05.07.1995?
6 A. I'm not aware.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: If he's going to mention any names --
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, that's why.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, but we need to warn him or caution him
10 immediately that if at any time you are asked questions which in answering
11 you would need to mention names of your colleagues and that location at
12 the time, please tell us so that we go in private session.
13 Could you answer the question, please? The question was: Do you
14 know who may have written or who wrote 05071995?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware.
16 MR. OSTOJIC:
17 Q. Do you know, sir, who changed it and added the 9 over the 5? And
18 don't give us the name but just tell me if you know.
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Now, sir, from the 9th to the 11th you see the entry immediately
21 below, 11.7.95; do you see that?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. What happened on the 10th of July, 1995, according to this
25 A. I don't see that anything was recorded on the 10th here.
1 Q. Can you just quickly, sir, turn to ERN 0080-4537 which is about
2 seven or so pages over? In the middle of that page, sir. I'm telling you
3 this, but we could go through it page by page, but in the interests of
4 time this entry, 16.7.95, seems to be the next date that follows the
5 11.7.95 entry. Is that correct?
6 A. Just a minute, please. If I can just take a look. I would say
7 that that's correct.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, sir, why the dates of July 12th,
9 13th, 14th, and 15th were not recorded in that section of the notebook?
10 A. I answered that question when you asked me as to why I did not
11 write those dates. I didn't write them because they were certain to be
12 written in the computer, if it was done on that day, and sometimes I
13 simply did not record the date.
14 Q. Okay. Now, if you turn to the next page, after 16.7.95, and if
15 you just flip through it, sir, will you agree with me that after the 16th
16 of July 1997, there are actually dates throughout this logbook,
17 specific -- specifically?
18 A. I would have to take a closer look.
19 Q. If the Court doesn't mind, if it's okay?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, perhaps you can help him directing
21 him to specific pages.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: I will, Your Honour.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to go through the entire
24 notebook. It's not a problem at all, but if you have a specific page
25 you're interested in, please tell me.
1 Q. [Microphone not activated].
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Ostojic, please.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, thank you.
4 Q. Sir, on the 16th of July, 1995, there are ten conversations. So
5 if you just count through the conversations you'll find the next date, and
6 as soon as I find it I'll highlight it for you.
7 Do you see the next date on 45 --
8 A. All right.
9 Q. 4547, it's the 17th, correct, 95, do you see that on the top? You
10 had it just a moment ago.
11 A. I found it.
12 Q. And then there is 14 conversations that are captured on the 17th
13 of July, and then you see an entry of the 18th of July; correct? Which is
14 on 0080-4557.
15 A. Yes, I found it.
16 Q. And then there is nine conversations for that day. And if you
17 look at 0080-4564, 4565 I'm sorry, we have the date of the 19th of July,
18 1995; do you see that?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And it goes on and on with every date specifically. But we could
21 look at it, I don't think it's necessarily -- necessary to see it there.
22 You'll see that there is a nine conversations for the 19th, seven
23 conversations, sir, for the 20th of July, ten conversations, sir, for the
24 21st of July, then we have a date missing, approximately the 22nd of July,
25 then an entry for the 23rd of July where there are 15 entries of
1 conversations that were purportedly captured, and the book ends there.
2 My specific question to you, sir, before we break is: Can you
3 tell me why during the period of the 11th through the 16th, why there were
4 so few conversations when it seems that you averaged from the 16th through
5 the -- what did I say, was it the 24th? The 16th through the 23rd of
6 July, there were 96 conversations captured in that one-week period. So I
7 want to take the same one-week period. How can you differentiate that?
8 A. I can just give you an assumption. I don't remember the exact
9 period and those days, but based on my experience, based on my previous
10 knowledge and work in that unit, I can even give you some assumptions that
11 might be very close to the truth. Something that I believe would be true
12 but I don't know how good that is for you.
13 Q. Well, I always believe in the truth, sir, and -- but it's not my
14 decision to allow you to answer or not to answer a question that you say
15 may be speculative.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll decide to what extent at all it is
17 speculative, in which case we will just eradicate it.
18 So, yes, please, sir, Witness, could you try to give us your
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There could be several reasons
21 in my view. It is possible that there were a lot of irrelevant
22 conversations that we did not to write in the notebook. It's possible.
23 I don't know how important the other intercepts were. I didn't
24 read them. Had I read them, then I would have told you, Well, listen this
25 intercept is worthless. There was no need to record it. But I didn't
1 read them, so I can't tell you. So that's one possible reason.
2 The other possible reason is that on their side, there was some
3 movement of radio equipment, that they had a new organisation, new
4 elevation or something, and that that caused a delay. This is something
5 that I can assume based on my experience.
6 I don't really have a third reason. I just gave you these two
8 MR. OSTOJIC:
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. But I can -- sir, looking again just
10 immediately before the break, one last question, and this is very
11 straightforward. Do you see on page -- or on the logbook, 0080-43 --
12 strike that, 0080-4537, where we saw the date 16.7.95 placed in there? Do
13 you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting above this entry? Is that your
16 handwriting immediately above 16.7.95?
17 A. Yes. I can recognise my hand.
18 Q. Is that your handwriting immediately above that? At 12.15?
19 A. Yes, definitely.
20 Q. And how about the conversation below, sir? Is that your
22 A. Definitely not.
23 Q. Sir, who wrote 16.7.95 on this page; do you know?
24 A. This is my handwriting.
25 Q. Sir, why would you write 16.7.95 to start the next day of a
1 conversation that you did not listen to or capture?
2 A. Sometimes, if I were the last one to record something before the
3 new shift came in, as I was about to finish my shift, for example, if it
4 was 10.00 p.m. or 12.00 p.m., if I was the last operator working at the
5 equipment, I had this habit of putting the date, just in order to show
6 that this was one shift and a new one was coming. That's my explanation,
7 because I don't think that what follows after this date was written by
8 somebody from my team because I simply don't recognise the handwriting.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: If we can take the break now, I think it's the right
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a 25-minute break or did we have
12 any redactions this time? 25 minutes, please.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
17 MR. JOSSE: I'm very sorry to have to interpose my learned
18 friend's cross-examination, but various members of our team have been
19 trying to sort out the provisional release of our client, and at one point
20 in time I thought I was going to be applying for a different airport for
21 him to depart from the Netherlands. But it now transpires that the
22 government of Serbia, who have been helpful and cooperative with our team,
23 are unable to fly General Gvero out of the Netherlands on the 19th of
24 December. We had assumed, and this is why we withdrew the motion that we
25 filed a day or two ago, that special arrangements were being made for our
1 client to leave this country on that day.
2 We have just been told that that is now not possible. We
3 therefore, Your Honour, with regret, have to resurrect the motion that we
4 withdrew two days ago and ask that he be released a day earlier, on the
5 18th of December and he will leave by scheduled airplane via Schiphol
7 Mr. Krgovic spoke briefly to my learned friend Mr. McCloskey about
8 it and I understand he doesn't object, but I have to say we literally just
9 told him because we literally just learned ourselves of the present
10 position. I'm sorry about this.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's your duty, Mr. Josse. You needn't be sorry
12 about this.
13 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No problem, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to dispose of the resurrected motion.
16 And having heard your submissions and also the no objection registered by
17 the Prosecution, we are hereby granting the motion orally.
18 Madam Registrar, since we are short of time, please communicate
19 this, our oral decision, to the various persons concerned, various
20 authorities concerned. Last but not least, to the Dutch authorities,
21 because they need to know.
22 MR. JOSSE: We are grateful to the Trial Chamber and of course the
23 registry, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So, Mr. Ostojic, you will wait a little
25 bit until we get the witness in. We are obviously not going to finish
2 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm really sorry, Your Honour, it doesn't look like
3 it and I feel bad for everyone, actually.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The evidence of this witness concerns your client
5 more than anybody else, actually.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Ostojic.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Sir, hi again. I was unclear on your last answer that you gave
10 us, and we are talking about the intercept page 0080-4537, where you wrote
11 in the date 16 July 1995. Do you see that there?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Now, you told us, sir, that if you were the last operator working
14 at the equipment, and this is on page 72, lines 19 through 21: "I had
15 this habit of putting the date just to -- just in order to show that this
16 was one shift and a new one was coming."
17 You remember that? You just said it a half hour ago.
18 A. Yes, yes, I did.
19 Q. Now, do you know, sir, since you used the word habit, did you do
20 it on each and every occasion that your shift ended or on just this one
22 A. I think that this was the only time that I was the last operator
23 before a new shift. I couldn't do it each time. It depended on the
24 schedule of the shifts. I couldn't be the last one each time.
25 Q. Now, on page 72 again, on line 19, you say if it was 10.00 p.m. or
1 12.00 p.m. then you were in the habit of writing this date.
2 Sir, the intercept immediately above the 16th of July, 1995, is it
3 your testimony that that's 12.15 midnight, or 12.15 in the afternoon?
4 A. I meant that it was noon, 100 per cent, because if it was midnight
5 then it would have said 00. That was about the time that the shift
7 Q. Well, let me ask you this, then, if the shift changes mid-day,
8 what's the necessity to put the date at that time? What I'm asking you,
9 sir, how did you know in advance that there were going to be no other
10 conversations for the remainder of that day, from 12.00 in the afternoon
11 until what seems to be the next conversation that was captured at 9.45 in
12 the morning?
13 A. I didn't know that. I put the date in.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
15 MR. THAYER: He's already answered the question. I just was going
16 to ask for a rephrase given the nature of the question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he understood it, yes. Thank you.
18 MR. OSTOJIC:
19 Q. Sir, if you could look to the front of this book, and we have a
20 copy but you have the original, if you could close the book to your
21 right. Now do you see what's in the middle of that book, after the word
22 Papo city LI, and then there is something else that's on this book, do you
23 see that, 1 GEN period 2001. Do you see that?
24 A. [No interpretation].
25 Q. It's in blue -- blue ink, I think.
1 A. Yes, I see it.
2 Q. Can you, sir, by looking at the original there, can you determine
3 whether or not that was stamped on there, whether it was taped on there,
4 or did it originally have that information on the book when it was
5 initially manufactured?
6 A. I think that it's 100 per cent written when the notebook was
7 produced. When the notebook was produced, that's when it was done. We
8 couldn't have done this.
9 Q. And, sir, there is another similar description like that on the
10 right-hand side immediately above that, I think it's in green ink, is it
11 not, see it on the right-hand side, right? If you don't mind just putting
12 that on the ELMO or if the Court would allow the usher to help him.
13 A. Are you thinking of this?
14 Q. Yes, sir.
15 A. It's the same thing. When the notebook was produced. It's the
16 same thing.
17 Q. Okay. That's helpful, thank you.
18 Sir, I went through your notebook and tried to identify some of
19 your signatures. There is no other entry that I found, sir, which
20 remotely suggests that you ever heard Mr. Beara's voice. Would that be
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: If there could be a time frame provided for that
24 question, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Spring of 1995 up until the time he left the
2 southern facility, as we call it, I guess.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you understand the question, Witness?
4 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
5 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour. It's just that I believe the
6 question was tied to the notebook, so it's just a little incongruous,
7 that's all. If I understood the question.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, I think we are beyond the notebook. We have
9 his testimony on that issue. I was asking him now on the frequency in
10 which he purports to have heard Mr. Beara's voice, so it's a totally
11 different issue. Maybe I should highlight that when I ask a different
12 group of questions. It's a totally different issue.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You're suggesting to him that he was not correct in
14 his previous answers that he had heard Beara's voice on several occasions
15 by referring him to the entries in this notebook. That's how I understand
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, or any notebook, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: But it was -- there is no entry that I found in
19 referring to that notebook that he has in front of him that would remotely
20 suggest that he ever heard Mr. Beara's voice to. So if you are
21 referring -- you want to refer him also to other notebooks you need to be
23 MR. OSTOJIC: We will, but we'll take it maybe one notebook at a
24 time and maybe I can just summarise --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I was right, you were referring to this
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. Sir --
4 A. Could you please put the question to me again?
5 Q. In looking at this notebook, 22 I think it's identified as,
6 number 22, I couldn't find any conversation that you purportedly recorded
7 which bears a conversation that was captured which included Mr. Beara. Am
8 I correct?
9 A. Well, if you look through it, then you are 100 per cent right,
10 if -- as far as the intercepts are concerned. If there aren't any, then
11 there aren't any. If Beara's name doesn't appear, then it means he
12 doesn't appear. If you would like to know now how many times I heard him
13 in that period when he began to appear, I mean, I don't understand what
14 you are asking.
15 Q. Well, I'm asking, sir, to know approximately the frequency in
16 which you claim to have heard Mr. Beara's voice. According to the
17 notebook, this one, and any other notebook for that matter, I couldn't
18 find with respect to your handwritten intercepted conversations any
19 reference that you captured a conversation which included Mr. Beara. Am I
21 A. You're correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I didn't
22 hear him.
23 Q. In fact, sir, I couldn't find any conversations that you claim to
24 have recorded or captured, I should say, involving Mr. Beara before or
25 after the 16th of July 1995, in any of the notebooks. Correct?
1 A. If you were unable to find them, then it's correct.
2 Q. What I'm suggesting to you, sir, is not that I couldn't find them.
3 They just simply don't exist; correct?
4 A. If he's not there, then they don't exist. I'm interested in
5 exactly what you would like to know.
6 Q. And I'll ask the question. Thank you for your patience on that.
7 Sir, the OTP never showed you any other intercepts which purport
8 to involve Mr. Beara, did they? Yours or by any other intercept operator;
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Now, let me show you book 231, which has, I think, the Exhibit
12 number P02315 on the e-court, please. And if we can turn to the page with
13 the ERN number 01077918.
14 A. Could you please rotate the image.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... while we are -- while they
16 are rotating it, sir, the 16th of July, 1995 seems to be written in in
17 several books. Can I ask you this? Although I don't know that this book
18 is directly related to you or this southern site, do you know if you wrote
19 in there that you see in the middle of the page, 16.07.95 in this book as
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: No means that you didn't?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: That's what I understood.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did not write this down.
25 MR. OSTOJIC:
1 Q. Do you know, sir, who wrote the 14.07.95 right above that?
2 A. I couldn't say.
3 Q. According to this, sir, although it may not have your handwriting
4 on it, there -- this is the beginning of a new day, the 14th of July,
5 correct, and the beginning of a new day, the 16th of July, 1995, correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Just so I understand these books correctly, hopefully, there was
8 apparently no conversation in this book recorded for the 14th of July and
9 no conversation in this book that was recorded whatsoever on the 15th of
10 July, 1995; correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Sir, I want to direct your attention to a different point so that
13 we could all follow along, and I know you don't remember dates
14 specifically or -- specifically. Sir, when the fall of Srebrenica
15 occurred on approximately or on or about the 10th of July, 1995, did you
16 or any of your intercept operators discuss where the people from
17 Srebrenica were going? Were you able to pick up any such conversations?
18 A. Probably we did have such conversations, but I don't remember
19 them. Right now, I wouldn't be able to repeat back for you a single
20 sentence from that period.
21 Q. And it would be found, if anywhere, it would be found in these
22 logbooks; correct? Specifically let's say the 8th or the 9th in
23 preparation of the enclave falling and then immediately thereafter,
24 the 11th, 12th and so on, it would be found in those notebooks. Correct?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if I understand the question well, I
2 think that really calls for speculation.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily. That's our decision. If in
5 answering he -- we notice that he's speculating, then obviously we will
7 MR. OSTOJIC: And only if he knows, obviously.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. And it doesn't necessarily follow
9 that in answering this question he needs to speculate.
10 Let's -- so let's answer this question, Witness.
11 Perhaps you can repeat it.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. I'll try.
13 Q. Do you know, sir, if, in the intercept books that you reviewed in
14 preparation for your testimony, do you know if the events prior to the
15 fall of Srebrenica would have been included in these notebooks, the
16 preparation for the fall of the enclave?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The way you have phrased it, if I were answering the
18 question, I would have told you it's confusing but --
19 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll ask the exact question. I just have to find it
20 here, Judge. I'm sorry for that.
21 Q. I stated this, and I'll just read the question again. Thank you
22 for your patience.
23 Would it be found anywhere in these logbooks specifically let's
24 say the 8th, or the 9th in preparation of the enclave falling, and then
25 immediately thereafter, the 11th, 12th and so on, it would be found in
1 those notebooks; correct? Any conversations that you may have captured.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: "You" in the singular, I suppose.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, but -- yes. And then I was going to ask him
4 plural, but I didn't want to get an objection for compound but ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First, I don't know anything about
6 this notebook. I've never seen it before and I don't know who wrote this
7 in. I'm only talking about my own notebook, if I can.
8 And as for my own notebook, all I can say is one thing: We wrote
9 what we heard. We didn't write unimportant things. That's one thing.
10 But about what was in there, should there have been anything about the
11 preparations there or anything like that, I really don't know. I mean, it
12 wasn't my job to think about these things. I was doing this job the way
13 we were doing it.
14 MR. OSTOJIC:
15 Q. Well, what do you define your job as being, sir, at that time,
16 July of 1995?
17 A. My job was to replace the shift that was before me, if that was
18 possible, because of the weather and everything, and then to make a
19 schedule of work amongst our people, to stick to as much as I was able, to
20 the schedule, to intercept conversations, if the scanners found them or
21 the antennas found them, to try to record that and to try to transcribe it
22 into the notebook, then to try with the guy who was doing it to send it,
23 sometimes to make lunch or bread, to rest when I was tired, again to wait
24 for the next shift and ...
25 Q. If I can just interrupt you, I wasn't quite asking that detail.
1 I'll put the question to you, sir. Specifically wasn't one of the
2 tasks that you were given in July of 1995 was to listen in on the various
3 VRS officers and military personnel in order to assist in the defence of
4 the Srebrenica enclave? Wasn't that one of your tasks?
5 A. The task had to do not only with the Srebrenica enclave but
6 anything that could help at any side. Whatever channel we heard something
7 on, it needn't necessarily have been the Srebrenica channel, we would
8 transcribe and send off.
9 Q. Transcribe listening to conversations of whom?
10 A. Conversations of those people that our scanner found. Sometimes
11 they were not military personnel. On those channels you could sometimes
12 hear civilian conversations. I guess they had that option, the army of
13 Republika Srpska, to connect civilians for telephone conversations. I
14 listened to a couple of civilians. How they connected them I don't know,
15 but we even sometimes managed to listen in.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Sir, if you can go back to that book and turn
17 to that page or perhaps with the assistance of the usher, with the Court's
18 permission, 0080-4537 again and they will help you. Actually, the book to
19 your right, the logbook, 4537.
20 Again, I just want to make sure, it's your handwriting that's
21 denoted as being 16 July 1995. Immediately above that there is an entry
22 of an intercept timed 12.15 in the afternoon; correct?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we have it placed on the ELMO, please?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
25 MR. OSTOJIC:
1 Q. And, again, I'm not sure if I got your answer correctly, because I
2 know you were talking when I said "above that." That intercept, sir, is
3 that an intercept that you captured and you wrote down? In other words,
4 it that your handwriting at 12.15?
5 A. Yes, I said that before too.
6 Q. And when, sir, would your shifts end then? At midnight on the day
7 when they ended or at a different hour?
8 A. Our shifts changed approximately at noon. When the crew set off,
9 sometimes they would come at 10.00 in the morning, sometimes they would
10 come at noon. Sometimes they would be a couple of hours late because they
11 had to bring water, because there was a shortage of water. I couldn't
12 give you an exact hour. It varied. But in any case, it was definitely
13 during the day.
14 Q. So what time did your shift end on the 15th of July, 1995? Do you
15 know by looking at this page?
16 A. I don't know if my shift ended on the 15th of July. I don't know
17 if it ended on the 15th of July. I don't remember that.
18 Q. You wrote the entry the 16th of July 1995; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and I think your testimony,
21 sir, was that it was the habit at the end of your shift to write the date
22 for the next shift; correct?
23 A. If I was the last operator I used to do that, yes.
24 Q. And it looks by this, because it's apparently your handwriting,
25 you were the last operator at noon on the 16th or 15th of 1995 [sic], sir?
1 A. Yes. That possibility exists.
2 Q. What I want to know about this conversation on 12.15, this
3 conversation is really a conversation that occurred on the 16th of July,
4 1995, and after you wrote that conversation apparently there was a switch
5 or a change in shifts, and that you wrote the date right underneath that;
6 correct? Otherwise, sir, it really wouldn't make sense why at noon you
7 would have written the next day what the date was because you couldn't
8 have been clairvoyant and found that there would be no conversations
9 whatsoever from noon until midnight.
10 A. Again, I say I can only give you the answer that I gave earlier
11 why this was done, I cannot speculate further. I gave an answer why I
12 would have written something like that. It was a custom. I don't know
13 what would have been the reason. It would be speculation. So I cannot
14 give you 100 per cent definite explanation. I would really like to go
15 back to that time, but I really cannot. It was too long ago.
16 Q. Sir, if we can flip --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please. Can we see the previous page,
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not the previous. The previous, no, no.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe the usher can assist, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, we need to zoom out first.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I think the Court would like to see 4536 but also
24 4535 [Microphone not activated].
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry. Your Honour, the 16th of July appears on
2 the last four numbers of the ERN 4537. I think the Court would like to
3 see 4536 and then also 4535.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to 4534 first. I can't see any dates
5 there. And the previous page. And the previous page, 4532.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may just help Your Honour, I think we had
7 indicated and I think the Prosecutor is in agreement the only date that
8 appears before that is the 11th of July on 4528.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to --
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Excuse me.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- see the previous pages to make sure that there
12 are no dates indicated.
13 Yes, we can go to 4536 now. This is page you wanted us to look
14 at, Mr. Ostojic.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: No, actually 45 -- strike that. Let me start
16 again. The prior page, which is 4535, which starts the conversation of an
17 intercept at 10.00. You should look at both pages, I would suggest.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. Okay. And the next 4536? I suppose it's
19 a continuation.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: It seems to be, Your Honour, yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. 4537 is where we were.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Your question, Mr. Ostojic.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
25 Q. Sir, given now that we've established that your shifts changed at
1 approximately noon or thereabouts and that you ended your shift on that
2 date and then entered this date of 16 July 1995, am I correct that the
3 conversations that precede that, namely the one at 12.15 in the afternoon
4 and the one immediately before that at 10.00 a.m., occurred purportedly on
5 the 16th of July, 1995; correct?
6 A. If I wrote in that date when it was supposed to be, then that
7 should have meant that. I explained about the date already. The date was
8 added, possibly added, when we were leaving but again, these are all
9 possibilities. I never said that was so and that was so.
10 It's possible when I was last in the shift as we were leaving that
11 I would write it down. It's possible. I cannot tell you precisely what I
12 did 11 years ago. I did mention that as a possibility, but please don't
13 hold me to that date. It's possible.
14 Q. Sir, but given your testimony, isn't it more likely than not, and
15 isn't it certain that as you've testified when your shift ended you made
16 this notation of 16 July 1995, that in fact, that was the date that those
17 conversations were captured, if at all?
18 A. No. You asserted that, that that was that intercept written in on
19 that day. I didn't say that.
20 Q. Okay. We'll go back and study your testimony carefully on that
21 point. Sir, did you know, you specifically, and your group, because we
22 are running a little short of time so if I could just be given the
23 latitude to ask a somewhat compound question, did you or your men, sir,
24 know that the people from Srebrenica were going to Potocari on or about
25 the 10th or 11th of July, 1995?
1 A. At the time, we probably knew, but I cannot remember now if we did
2 or didn't. At the time, we knew much of what was going on, but that was a
3 while ago.
4 Q. And I understand that. And, sir, those are important events, were
5 they not, for you to capture any conversations that you may have heard and
6 to transmit those conversations to your superiors; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And, sir, did you know or your men know that there was screening
9 of enemy combatants that were being conducted in Potocari during that same
10 period, the 12th through the 15th, 1995?
11 A. Again, as I say, if we did get something in a dispatch, then we
12 probably assumed something at that time but I really couldn't say now. I
13 can't remember.
14 Q. Well, do you know, sir, that these some enemy military combatants
15 were being interrogated at Potocari in what was defined as an
16 interrogation house? Did you ever learn about that?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, number 1, I think he's answered that
19 question. It's been slightly rephrased, but I think it's essentially the
20 same question, and I think we are beginning to get a little far afield of
21 the subject matter of this witness's testimony.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I'm sorry about that. Objection sustained. I
1 think you need to restrict to what this witness came here to testify
3 MR. OSTOJIC: I will, Your Honour.
4 Q. Sir, could we look at that intercept 4535, please? Do you see it
5 on tab 1 in your book? You can look at the copy that the Prosecutor gave
6 you or the original, whichever you prefer.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now looking at the original book, sir, do you see that in certain
9 portions of this two-page conversation -- or two and a half page
10 conversation that you captured, allegedly, do you see that the period is
11 somewhat highlighted and that apparently someone who wrote the period made
12 it a little darker than the balance of the text? Do you see that in the
13 original? Perhaps it's easier to see it in the original, which is to your
15 A. I see that the time is indicated as 1000 in just plain figures.
16 Q. Sir, can you look at the original book to your right, which is on
17 the ELMO? And we'll take it page by page. The first page of the
18 conversation is at 4535. Do you see that? Now, do you see anywhere
19 there, sir, in the original, although we don't have the benefit of looking
20 at it but you can look at it, where a period ending a sentence of a
21 purported conversation is actually highlighted more than just a little
23 A. Which sentence?
24 Q. Well, if you look through the first one, the second one, the
25 fourth one?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Okay. Is that the way you made your period, sir, a little larger
5 and a little darker than just the dot?
6 A. Well, just depends. Sometimes I write it like this, sometimes I
7 write it like that, the dot or the period.
8 Q. Let's see the next page, sir, 4536, please. The top of that page,
9 I think you can see, there seems to be some numbers that come before 0080.
10 Do you see that?
11 A. 8, 8, well, there is something coming through from the other side.
12 I just see that there are seals from the other side coming through before
13 00804. I just see that the seal on the opposite side was such a strong
14 impression that it sort of leaked through.
15 Q. Right. It bled through; correct?
16 A. Yes, from the other side.
17 Q. Now, sir, focusing on the beginning part of that conversation, I
18 want to take the first four entries that you make and we'll break this
19 down one at a time where it starts with B, K, B and K; do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, sir, Mr. Thayer mentioned in his summary that another portion
22 of this conversation was captured by some other units. Do you remember
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you write the time down, do you write the time that you
1 initially begin capturing the conversation?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So can you tell us, sir, how many minutes after these other units
4 supposedly picked up this conversation, that you were able to pick up the
6 A. I can't tell you how many minutes.
7 Q. Well, do you remember, sir, in the Krstic case, that you were
8 asked that it was a three-minute differential between some other intercept
9 and your intercept; do you recall that?
10 A. That's possible.
11 Q. So you don't remember or -- I know it's possible but that's what
12 you said and that's what it reflects. But we'll move on in the interests
13 of time. I don't think there is an argument about it, quite frankly.
14 Sir, can you tell me in this intercept that you captured on these
15 two and a half pages, how many times does purportedly General Krstic refer
16 to Ljubo Beara by his name?
17 A. Hmm, I would have to go over it.
18 Q. Let me do it, because I did it just in the interests of time, if I
19 may, and since it is cross-examination. There is no reference whatsoever
20 by General Krstic of Mr. Beara by his last name; correct?
21 A. I would have to check that too. If you checked it, I trust you.
22 Q. I appreciate that very much. Sir, the only time that General
23 Krstic purportedly identifies the person he's speaking to is by his first
24 name, Ljubo, on three occasions; correct?
25 A. I need to check.
1 Q. You're welcome to do that or you can trust me or maybe you --
2 A. I'll trust you.
3 Q. I do appreciate that, sir, very much. Sir, again focusing on the
4 first four entries, B, K, and then B, K, again, I want to look at the last
5 section there where you put the entry for K, you put Fasica and
6 Sladojevic; do you see that?
7 A. Yes, Tasica or Sladojevic.
8 Q. I'm sorry, on my copy it looked like an F, so, yes, Tasica, and
9 then the next person is Sladojevic, right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Okay. Do you know, sir, whether Mr. Sladojevic was a colonel at
12 that time?
13 A. Hmm, I don't remember Sladojevic at all right now. I don't
14 remember him.
15 Q. Do you know, sir, whether or not he was in the Main Staff at the
17 A. I just don't remember Sladojevic.
18 Q. Do you recall, sir, if at that time, July of 1995, you and the
19 other intercept operators had a dossier or a printed form identifying
20 various individuals that was given to you by your command?
21 A. I personally don't remember that.
22 Q. I'm suggesting to you, sir, that you never had such a dossier.
23 Would I be correct?
24 A. If that is your position, perhaps, but I gave you my answer. My
25 answer is I don't remember that. That's my answer.
1 Q. That's fair. Thank you. That's fair.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: I have a couple areas left, just to go through the
3 transcript. Maybe 25 minutes, Your Honour, tomorrow. I'm just letting
4 the Court know because I know I'm approaching the two-hour mark according
5 to what I've been advised, so ...
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And more or less the time indicated by the
7 other Defence teams remains the same?
8 Anyway, we have to stop now. We will continue tomorrow morning,
9 as it looks, we'll probably be over with this witness's testimony during
10 the first session. And then unless there is some kind of business to
11 transact, we will -- we can then safely adjourn.
12 Before we adjourn, I just want -- Mr. Josse, I just wanted to make
13 sure, in relation to the decision, all right. So that there is no
14 misunderstanding, we are sticking to the date of the return of your
15 client. That will remain the 27th?
16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, please, because in fact, we have been
17 informed there is no flight, direct flight on the 26th.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, I'm making it clear for everyone and
19 for the record that he will leave on the 18th instead of the 19th and he
20 will return as per our decision on the 27th of December.
21 MR. JOSSE: That's our application, and we would be very grateful,
22 as I've already said.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Thank you.
24 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of
2 December, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.