1 Tuesday, 16 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon. Madam Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, accused Popovic is temporarily
10 absent from the courtroom, being attended to for a medical problem that he
11 has encountered. We are -- otherwise we are full house. We can proceed.
12 A few things that we would like to raise with you. One is there
13 is a motion from the Prosecution for the issue of a subpoena. You have
14 been served with a copy, I suppose. Yes. Since this is pretty urgent, we
15 are talking of someone who should be here very latest next week, early next
16 week. Are there any objections? I hear none.
17 The motion is granted, but since you will need a written copy, it
18 is being attended to, I will have a look at it and then we will hand down
19 the decision during the day.
20 There is another motion from the Prosecution filed on the 12th of
21 January to convert three viva voce witnesses to Rule 92 ter witnesses,
22 we're talking about 78, 79 and 80, the first of whom will be the next one
23 after we're finished with this witness today. Are there any objections
24 from the Defence teams to have these witnesses testify as Rule 92 ter? I
25 hear none. So that motion is granted, and that will not be followed by a
2 Last Friday, Madam Fauveau raised the issue as to whether the
3 time limits that we communicated to you during the day would apply to the
4 next witness being the cryptographic witness. Our decision is that we will
5 not apply the time limits in any rigid way, however we will see how,
6 because of course I mean we don't have an idea what this person is going to
7 testify upon, and we'll deal with it as we go along. What we will
8 certainly do is in conformity with our communication to you, we will
9 control both the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination in case
10 there are questions dealing with issues that we don't think we ought to
11 hear any more about.
12 Yes, Mr. Thayer?
13 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
15 MR. THAYER: If it is of assistance to you and my learned
16 friends, Mr. Nicholls has advised that me he intends to try to comply to
17 the half-hour limit with witness number 78. It may require more than that,
18 but just to give you an idea of the time we anticipate with him, it will be
19 about that.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We have communicated our decision, in other words,
21 that you remain within the parameters that we mentioned, et cetera, the 30-
22 minute limit applicable to you and the 20 minutes applicable to the various
23 Defence teams can be extended depending on circumstances, if there is a
24 just cause.
25 All right. Can we bring in the witness, please?
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: And guards, please, any time Mr. Popovic can return
3 to the courtroom, you may escort him straight away, you don't need to
4 inform us beforehand.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Good afternoon to you, sir.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
9 start giving evidence, and our rules require that before you do so you
10 enter a solemn declaration to the effect that you will be testifying the
11 truth. The text is going to be handed to you now. Please read that, read
12 it out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with this Tribunal.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, I understand. I
14 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing
15 but the truth.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Please make yourself comfortable.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You have probably been informed already that we
20 granted you some protective measures, namely facial distortion and also the
21 use of a pseudonym instead of your name. I trust this has been explained
22 to you and it is satisfactory to you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have been informed about the
24 protective measures and I am satisfied.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You will first be examined in chief by
1 Mr. Thayer, to be followed by cross-examination by some of the Defence
3 Go ahead, Mr. Thayer.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-123
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon again,
7 learned friends, all.
8 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
9 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. With the court usher's assistance, I will be handed to you a
12 document, and without reading it aloud, just read it to yourself, please.
13 Would you just confirm that your name appears next to the number PW-123?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that is --
16 A. Your Honours, yes, my name is on the paper.
17 Q. And that is PO2351, for the record.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Sir, before I begin asking you just a few questions
20 about your prior testimony, I wanted to ask you one biographical questions
21 and fill in a couple of details about your military service.
22 Mr. President, may we briefly enter private session.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 5875 redacted. Private session
19 [Open session]
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. Sir, I want to turn your attention to your testimony in the
22 Blagojevic case. Was that entire testimony read to you in your own
24 A. Yes, I did read the entire statement.
25 Q. And, in fact, the transcript was read to you by one of our
1 language assistants; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. I was read and the -- to, and the transcript was translated
3 to me, yes.
4 Q. Did you bring any inaccuracies to my attention after having that
5 transcript read to you, sir?
6 A. From what I understood, in one section it was translated as if
7 somebody was standing above me and telling me where I would be putting the
8 full stops. That's how I understood it.
9 Q. Okay. We'll talk about --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record, the Trial Chamber
11 notes that Mr. Popovic has come -- has entered into the courtroom.
12 [The accused Popovic enters court]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Popovic, should you have any problems during
14 the sitting that requires our attention during the sitting, please let us
15 know straight away.
16 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, we'll talk about the transcript and any inaccuracies in
19 just a moment. Let me get through a couple of items first.
20 Can you attest before the Trial Chamber that other than any of
21 the inaccuracies that we will talk about shortly, the transcript which was
22 read to you accurately reflects your testimony in the Blagojevic case?
23 A. It's my testimony for the most part. That part that wasn't clear
24 to me.
25 Q. And is it your testimony that other than that part the transcript
1 which was read to you was accurate?
2 A. Yes, the rest of it is accurate.
3 Q. And the transcript, does it reflect what you would say if
4 actually questioned as reflected in the transcript?
5 A. Well, it would be difficult to repeat it word for word. I know
6 the procedure that I put into practice, but I don't know if I would be able
7 to use the same words to describe what I was doing. That is something that
8 I don't know.
9 Q. But the substance of the testimony that is contained in that
10 transcript is what you would testify to if you were actually questioned
11 upon that? Is that fair to say, sir?
12 A. Yes, that could be so. You could say it like that, yes.
13 Q. Sir, I want to read to you a summary of your Blagojevic
14 testimony, after which we'll talk about a couple of those inaccuracies.
15 The witness is a Bosniak Muslim. He completed secondary school
16 and was a member of a radio amateur club, with which he competed in monthly
17 radio amateur competitions. He obtained a C grade certificate in 1984.
18 He performed his mandatory JNA service in 1988 and 1989 in a
19 signals company, where for the second six months of his service he
20 commanded a squad in charge of two APCs carrying the brigade's
21 communications equipment. Following his JNA service, he remained a member
22 of the radio amateur, club and continued to take part in monthly
24 In July of 1992, he joined the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
25 served in the electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare unit. He
1 obtained a B category certificate in 1993.
2 In the winter of 1993, he was transferred to the northern
3 location. He was then transferred to the southern location in May 1994.
4 He had previously been to the southern location, because some of the radio
5 amateur competitions were held there, although not at the military
7 In July 1995, he was still stationed at the southern location.
8 In his testimony, he described the shift structure, composition and
9 duration. He also described the equipment they used and the procedures
10 they followed to intercept and transcribe VRS conversations.
11 He identified his handwritten transcription of a 14 July 1995
12 conversation at 9.05 a.m. in an original notebook and a photocopy of it.
13 His transcription indicates that the participants are a duty officer and
14 General Zivanovic. They were familiar with Zivanovic's voice and the
15 phone he was using, which was very peculiar. He was not sure if it was
16 Zivanovic's voice or his phone which was the basis for this particular
17 identification. He then recognised a typed printout of this transcribed
19 He also identified his handwritten transcription of a 14 July
20 1995 conversation at 9.35 a.m. from the same original notebook and a
21 photocopy of it. He then recognised a typed printout of this transcribed
23 Finally, he identified his handwriting in a number of original
24 notebooks from the southern location. Another member of the company back
25 in command was in charge of giving the notebook numbers and the date when
1 the notebook was given out. This registration date did not necessarily
2 coincide with the first date on which the notebook was used to transcribe
4 And that concludes the summary.
5 Sir, did that -- was that summary accurate to the best of your
7 A. Yes, it was.
8 MR. THAYER: Now, Your Honour, if we may just go into private
9 session briefly because I will be citing the actual Blagojevic transcript
10 by page.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are already in private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 5881 redacted. Private session
20 [Open session]
21 MR. THAYER:
22 Q. Sir, I want to ask you just a couple of questions about one of
23 the intercepts only, and that's the one located at tab 1 of the packet.
24 And with the -- madam usher's assistance, I would just ask that a
25 copy of the packet be handed to the witness, just as a back-up, please.
1 And in the meantime, may we have PO2352B put on e-court, please? And for
2 the record that's ERN 0108-1878. The English translation should be the
3 last document, if you're working with the hard copy, the last document in
4 this tab, which is PO2352G.
5 Sir, do you recognise what's on your screen?
6 A. Yes, I do. This is my handwriting.
7 Q. And what is that, sir?
8 A. It is a transcript or rather an intercept that had been recorded
9 and noted down into the notebook by me. I listened it over on one of the
10 UHER devices and noted it down into the notebook.
11 Q. Now, I just ask you, for the sake of the record, because there is
12 a little bit of handwriting at the top of the document, your transcription
13 begins with a line that has a couple of numbers on it, followed by -- by a
14 couple of names. Can you just read those two lines into the record,
15 please, sir, where your transcription begins?
16 A. It begins with the 12th channel or 12 K at 1910. "Participants
17 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, Zlatar at the switchboard, Palma at the
18 switchboard, and Nikolic." And at the top, the part above what I've just
19 read, that is from another intercept. I just kept on writing into the same
20 notebook. There are several intercepts in there.
21 Q. Now, if we may, sir, may we look at PO2352C? And the English
22 translation of that document should be the first page within that tab, the
23 very first document, which is PO2352A, for the record.
24 Do you recognise what that is, sir?
25 A. This is a typed-out telegram which was sent to the unit by using
1 communication links and encrypted. It says at the top the army of the
2 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and then the unit, it says top secret,
3 the southern location, and the date.
4 Q. And what is the date, sir?
5 A. The 20th of April, 1995.
6 Q. Now, if we could just show page 2 of this document. And in the
7 packets this appears as the first page of the printout, since we placed the
8 page bearing the actual intercept as the first page and then the page --
9 any page bearing a date later on.
10 Now, again, sir, would you just please read into the record the
11 first two lines of this printout?
12 A. It says "Azimuth 45," meaning 45 degrees compared to our location.
13 Therefore we were receiving the signal from the angle of 45 degrees.
14 "Frequency 822 megahertz, channel 12, time 1910 hours, participants
15 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic - Zlatar - Palma - Nikolic." I've explained
16 already that Zlatar and Palma are the switchboards.
17 Q. Did you compare this transcription line by line to see if there
18 were differences, sir?
19 A. I compared them, and the punctuation is somewhat different, the
20 commas and question marks, and there was a word that was skipped. It was -
21 - it is missing in the typed version, as far as I can recall.
22 Q. Sir, do any of those differences change the meaning of the text
23 in any way?
24 A. It didn't change anything.
25 Q. Now, in preparing for your testimony, did I also ask you to
1 listen to a CD recording of a conversation?
2 A. I've listened to the recording from the CD.
3 Q. And as you listened to the recording, did I ask you to try to
4 simultaneously read your handwritten transcription and compare that
5 handwritten transcription to what you were hearing?
6 A. I compared it with my notes.
7 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber, sir, whether or not you were
8 able to identify the conversation that you were hearing on -- from the CD
9 as the one which you intercepted and transcribed, which we've been
10 discussing here at tab 1?
11 A. Yes. This is the conversation. The change is that the
12 introductory part was not noted down by me word for word when the two
13 switchboards were communicating at the very outset.
14 Q. Okay. We'll get to a --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Five minutes.
16 MR. THAYER: We'll get to that in just a couple of seconds. In
17 about a minute. If we could have PO235 -- actually, if we could queue up
18 P02352D, please. And with the assistance of the usher I will put the
19 transcript of this recording on the ELMO so we can see it. And the B/C/S
20 transcript is at PO2352F, and that should be the second to last document in
21 the packet or in the tab. And we can play that any time we're ready.
22 [Audio played]
23 MR. THAYER:
24 Q. Sir, without going into any specifics, were there any differences
25 between what you heard on the CD and what you wrote in the notebook?
1 A. In essence the two are the same. They are identical. I couldn't
2 follow the other part on the paper because it's not on the ELMO. Perhaps
3 we could do that. We heard the whole recording, but the rest of the page
4 could not be visible.
5 Q. And you are referring to the English translation, sir, being
7 A. No, the -- the Bosnian version. I couldn't follow it on hard
8 copy because they didn't turn the page.
9 Q. Okay. Based on your prior review, sir, and this will be my last
10 question. Based on your prior review in listening to the CD audio tape, do
11 you recall whether any of the differences that you noticed between what you
12 heard and what you wrote changed the meaning of the intercept at all?
13 A. Nothing was changed in the essence. Maybe a few words are
14 different, but the context is the same. It's the same conversation.
15 MR. THAYER: That concludes my examination.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.
17 As I take it, the Popovic team would like to cross-examine? Go
18 ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. You've listened carefully to the summary read out by my learned
24 friend Mr. Thayer. Inter alia you confirmed that you received empty
25 notebooks from the command and you were to use them to note down
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. In addition, you said that there was a registration or a file
4 number in those notebooks together with the date?
5 A. Yes, the so-called protocol. A filing number, because each
6 notebook had to have its own number within the unit.
7 Q. When you say "a unit," do you mean the company or the platoon?
8 A. The company.
9 Q. You said that that date did not necessarily have to correspond to
10 the dates of intercepts noted in the particular notebook?
11 A. The notebooks had been brought before, we would always get them
12 before each shift. There were several notebooks, and we were on the top of
13 the mountain, so this is how they delivered them to us.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are not allowing a pause between question and
15 answer, both of you. So if I could please emphasise with you the need to
16 pause between question and answer, because otherwise the interpreter will
17 encounter great difficulties. All right? The reason is you speak the same
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, I will
20 bear that in mind.
21 Q. I wanted to clarify something. The date on which you would start
22 using a particular notebook would, as a rule, come after the date when that
23 particular notebook was registered in your company. To give you an
24 example, if the protocol number was the 1st of May, you would start using
25 that notebook after the 1st of May?
1 A. Yes, that's what it should be like.
2 Q. Thank you. When you say it should be like that, does it mean
3 that there were exceptions?
4 A. Well, I didn't check all the dates in all the notebooks. It was
5 not my job to do that, to see which date it was filed on. It was done by
6 someone else.
7 Q. But you received all of them from the command, and they should
8 have been filed with the command?
9 A. Yes, but I'm saying that I wasn't the one to do that. Of course
10 the first intercept in a given notebook should follow the date of the
11 notebook's filing.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I don't expect my voice to remain a
13 voice in the wilderness unheeded. It's barely one minute ago, and you've
14 started doing exactly the same thing again. So please allow a pause
15 between question and answer.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Court.
17 Could we please show Exhibit from the 65 ter list bearing the
18 number 2355 to the witness? Page 3, please. I apologise. Page 2.
19 Q. Could you please have a look at the date? Is that the protocol
20 date you mentioned alongside the number?
21 A. Yes, this is what it used to look like, but I should really have
22 a look at the notebook. However, this does reflect the protocol number and
23 the date as they used to look like.
24 Q. I have nothing against you viewing the entire notebook, although
25 I believe this copy should be authentic. Do you want to see the original?
1 A. I don't know which notebook this is, but this is what it used to
2 look like. The protocol sign contained the number and the date.
3 Q. Could you please look at the original of that notebook, if
4 possible? Is it the same number and date as on the copy you have before
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Please look at the next page in the notebook.
8 A. Yes, I have it.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, can we place it on the ELMO, please? It's
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you see that the first date at the beginning of the notebook,
13 the first intercept, is the 16th of April?
14 A. Yes. I don't know who put that date there.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. I see the date, but whether it really corresponds to this
17 intercept, I don't know.
18 Q. Thank you. Please have a look at page 2352B. It is the 37th
19 page in the original, but we can also have a copy shown. It is 2352B from
20 the Prosecutor's list. It was shown a little while ago during the
22 If you go to page 37 of the notebook, you should find this
23 particular intercept that you've seen a few minutes ago. Can we agree that
24 there is no date here?
25 A. If I may have a moment to check.
1 Q. Please be my guest.
2 A. Yes, this is a copy from the notebook.
3 Q. Yes, and you gave your answers concerning this intercept when my
4 learned friend Mr. Thayer was questioning you. Since we see no date there,
5 how do you know what date it is? How did you know? Did you try to consult
6 the other dates from the notebook, or did you follow the typed report?
7 A. I went along the -- what I could see at the typed report, but
8 maybe I can check that against my own handwriting. There doesn't seem to
9 be a date. Therefore, I probably concluded what the date was from the
10 typed-out report.
11 Q. I wanted to ask you something else. Can you tell me how many
12 notebooks were in use simultaneously while you were on duty?
13 A. I don't know how many exactly. We would use several notebooks.
14 One would be sent to the typist, and in the meantime I would use another
15 one. Therefore, the typist would have one notebook, and I would have
17 Q. We heard some other intercept operators testifying here and they
18 told us that they would use the same notebook until they would reach their
19 end. In other words, they would say there were several workstations, four
20 workstations manned by two operators at the same time, each one would
21 follow two devices, and that each one of them would have a separate
22 handbook and when there would be a change of shift, after the two hours,
23 that person would continue writing down into the same notebook. Is that
25 A. To be specific, I would take the notebook which was there, which
1 was in use, and I would simply continue writing. While the typist had one
2 notebook, I would have another. I don't know how many were in use
3 simultaneously at any given time.
4 Q. While working on those intercepts how many operators were there
5 together with you at the same time?
6 A. There were two persons in each shift.
7 Q. And each one of you had one notebook, I presume?
8 A. We had several notebooks. We could have several.
9 Q. Does it mean that he could write in whichever one he wanted at
10 that moment?
11 A. The ones which had been used previously, or if they were
12 complete, full, then we could start a new one.
13 Q. In July 1995, is it possible that there may have been as many as
14 seven notebooks used at the same time?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. My next question is this: So on any given day one could use the
17 notebook number three, then the notebook number two, then the notebook
18 number one and so on and so forth?
19 A. One could use the notebooks that were there physically, present.
20 Q. I see that you have noted something that I had, because you
21 mentioned it in your testimony, that there are dates missing in many
22 notebooks. For example, you identified as many as nine of your intercepts
23 bearing no date. Can you tell me how one can determine what the exact date
24 was if one was to use only the notebook? Is it possible at all if you had,
25 say, seven notebooks used at the same time, it could mean on the 13th you
1 entered one conversation, and then you used some other notebooks, then on
2 the 16th you returned to the original one where you noted down the
3 conversation of the 13th, and you just continue writing down conversations
4 without any dates. In other words, if one was to go through that notebook,
5 could naturally presume that the second conversation was noted down on the
6 13th where the first one was, since it bore no date?
7 A. It wasn't our practice that we would note down dates. Sometimes
8 I put the dates in, sometimes I didn't. In the same room where we were,
9 there was the computer used by the typist, and I would simply give him the
10 notebook right away and he would start typing. In the computer, there were
11 templates with the azimuth, the frequency, the channel, depending on which
12 was used. That's where we would put in dates. Therefore, there was no
13 need for us to put them into the notebooks.
14 Q. Thank you. You remember your initial testimony before this
15 Tribunal probably, and I can try and jog your memory as well. On that
16 occasion you said that in the shift there were technicians, people who were
17 tasked with operating antennae?
18 A. You mean special people who worked with the antennas. Yes. We
19 knew who was entrusted with the antennas. That was allocated.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You said that there was also a person who took care of the tape
24 A. Well, we all took care of the tapes, but it was actually his task
25 to put them altogether.
1 Q. When you say that there was a person in charge of the tape
2 recorders, you mean for -- the person in charge of collecting all the
3 tapes? Is that what you mean?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you please tell me, other than the duty of section commander,
6 did you perform any other duties in this platoon?
7 A. I had duty shifts in the kitchen. I don't know whether that was
8 in that period in July, but we had to cook for ourselves.
9 Q. Well, let's take this time before you were sent to Sarajevo for
10 training. Until the 1st of May, 1995 did you carry out any other duties
11 other than being the section commander?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Thank you. Just one moment, please. Excuse me. While you were
14 training in Sarajevo did you know that the command of your unit requested
15 that you be promoted?
16 A. I don't remember that.
17 Q. Can you now please look at Exhibit 2D50?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Just to be on the safe side, Your Honour, if this --
20 this document will not be broadcast? I just want to get some confirmation.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Usually the instructions so far, and I understand
22 they are being adhered to, are not being broadcast.
23 MR. THAYER: There may be some biographical information, so I
24 just caution.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe we will go into private session, maybe that
1 is wiser.
2 Mr. Zivanovic, shall we go into private session?
3 [Private session]
11 Page 5895 redacted. Private session
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon.
4 To the Beara team, I understand, no cross-examination.
5 MR. MEEK: That's correct, Mr. President, we have no questions.
6 We are passing our time to the rest of the Defence teams, under your order.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek. When is Mr. Ostojic back?
8 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I spoke to Mr. Ostojic yesterday, there
9 are some personal problems, family problems that have arisen. He should be
10 back on Monday of next week.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 Madam Nikolic will be next. What happened to Mr. Bourgon?
13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon will be away for two or
14 three days. He is on duty at his office, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Nikolic, you may proceed.
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. You testified today on page 11 of the transcript, lines 15 to 18
21 that when you did not hear a conversation from the beginning and you did
22 not transcribe it from the beginning, you would place three dots at the
23 beginning indicating this?
24 A. Not every time, but in most cases, yes.
25 Q. On the 11th of January when you were preparing to testify before
1 this Tribunal, besides listening to the audio material, which was played in
2 the courtroom today, you were also shown the transcript of this
3 conversation, the transcript was drafted by the Prosecution; is that
5 A. Yes, I was shown the transcript by the Prosecution.
6 Q. And you read it carefully; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, I read it.
8 Q. I assume that you compared it to the handwritten version from
9 notebook 220, which was shown to you a number of times?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. You noticed some differences between those two texts; is that
12 correct? From the text which is the transcript of the Prosecution of the
13 conversation and the handwriting version in notebook 220?
14 A. Yes, there are some differences.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the Witness Exhibit
16 P2352B and F? These are B/C/S versions of this document that the witness
17 and I discussed. For those who will be following in English, it is also
18 Exhibit 2352, the translation is E, and the handwritten version is G. And
19 can we have them all on the screen, please?
20 THE REGISTRAR: We cannot have all of them on the screen. One by
22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No?
23 THE REGISTRAR: We can have on the ELMO hard copies if you wish.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Well, if this is easier on the
25 ELMO, then I would prefer that, and it will be also easier for the witness
1 to follow the text.
2 Q. Before we put the text on the ELMO, sir, could you please tell
3 me, in terms of these two texts, when you saw them again and when you heard
4 the cassette again, you would agree with me that the text by the
5 Prosecution is much closer to the actual conversation on the audiotape?
6 A. Yes. It's more precise conversation, but the context of the
7 conversation is the same. What was important to us was the information,
8 the actual context, but we didn't really bother much with the details.
9 Q. But from what I understood, there are differences in some words
10 between the Prosecution's transcript and your notes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the transcript of the Prosecution resembles much more closely
13 the original version.
14 Could we please look at two versions on the ELMO for the witness
15 to see, or if that's not possible, we can look at them one by one. I
16 really wanted to cut this short. Can we show the Witness 2352B and 2352F?
17 For those who are following it in English, it's 2352G and 2352E.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, could the counsel please say the ERN
19 number, since we don't have the 65 ter number in the hard copies.
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Of course: 0108-1878. 0822. That
21 is the F. Just one second. The same number is on the English and the
22 B/C/S version. 0822. So this can be confusing, but perhaps we can put the
23 B/C/S version of the transcript up. 0822 B/C/S transcript. I've got the
24 65 ter numbers which were furnished to us by the Prosecution.
25 Yes. Yes, that is the B/C/S version of the transcript.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you please look at the beginning of this conversation in
4 the notebook? Your notebook, and that would be the ERN number 0108-708.
5 0108-1878. If I'm not mistaken that would be page 36 of the notebook. Is
6 that correct, sir? Are these the two documents that we would like to look
8 A. Yes, I found it in the notebook, and also I found the transcript
9 done by the Prosecution.
10 Q. My question to you, please help me understand, we have the
11 participants up here on the transcript if you look at the screen N,
12 Nikolic; Z, Zlatar; P, Lieutenant-Colonel, and then the name, and then the
13 text begins. In your notebook, if we leave out the azimuth, the channel
14 and the time, there is one more word, and that is "Palma," and that is not
15 on the transcript of the Prosecution and we agreed that the transcript
16 faithfully conveys what is on the audiotape that we heard in the courtroom
17 today; is that correct?
18 A. The conversation that we looked at, you could not hear the Palma
19 switchboard, I think. You could not hear it. I wrote that before.
20 Q. You wrote that much earlier.
21 A. The procedure when I'm recording a conversation, while the device
22 is scanning, it is sweeping the memorised channels, memorised in the
23 device, and then when it comes to the 12th channel the device is stopped, I
24 can already hear the conversation in my headphones, and then I press the
25 record button. So it's not right from the beginning. This would happen in
1 the interval. You could hear the Palma switchboard.
2 Q. And you assumed that because today you don't hear that in the
4 A. No, you don't hear that on the audiotape.
5 Q. Yes, it's not there. You don't hear it. So today we assume that
6 that word at the time could have been Palma?
7 A. I wrote it for me on a piece of paper. I had a plain piece of
8 paper in front of me, and I would write down the time, the frequency, the
9 channel where the participant was talking and then I would just note down
10 briefly who participated in the conversation because then I could go back
11 to the actual conversation. We would be taping several conversations at
12 the same time, so I would have notes on the paper so that I could refer
13 back to the actual conversation when I was listening back to it. I
14 wouldn't immediately listen back to a conversation once it was over. I
15 wouldn't immediately begin to transcribe these conversations.
16 Q. Did you see that piece of paper when you were preparing for
17 today's testimony? Does that paper exist today?
18 A. No, I mean it was just an internal thing so that I could later
19 transcribe the proper conversation.
20 Q. Therefore, today from the audio recording we have and the
21 transcripts made from that and based on everything you heard here today, we
22 cannot say for certain that the word "Palma" was uttered, Palma being an
23 designator of one VRS unit?
24 A. You cannot hear it on the tape, but I know what I heard and I
25 noted it down on a piece of paper. That was the procedure that was in
2 Q. Please refer to the notebook before you, the original. It is
3 Exhibit P2355. For e-court it is 0108-1875. Three or four pages after
4 this. 0108-1875. You will see that number in the upper right-hand corner
5 in the notebook. Maybe it will assist you, and I believe this is where we
6 begin with your handwriting. It says 11822 towards the bottom of the page.
7 So 11, then 822000.
8 A. Yes, you're correct.
9 Q. You marked the channel, the frequency, and the time, and
10 participants 1 and 2; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It means that you didn't identify the participants in this
13 particular conversation?
14 A. I did not.
15 Q. Please go to the next page, the last four -- three digits are
16 876. We have the eighth channel at 1845?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Please read out the collocutors?
19 A. The duty officer lieutenant Simic, and Palma, Captain Milosevic.
20 Q. And Matkovic?
21 A. Yes, Matkovic.
22 Q. What follows is the actual conversation transcribed by you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I did not find any of the names mentioned in the first line. You
25 start using K and M from line 4 onwards. What was the basis for that?
1 A. I'm telling you the introductory part, whereby they introduced
2 themselves, I did not transcribe that. I would note down their names and I
3 know who it was. Therefore, I had it on a piece of paper and it should
4 probably be on the tape, the entire conversation. I would have to listen
5 to the entire conversation and based on the recorded conversation, I could
6 respond to your question whether they introduced themselves or not.
7 Q. So merely going through the text written by you wouldn't mean
8 much in this instance?
9 A. Well, I didn't write that down for nothing or out of the blue.
10 Either they were mentioned on the tape or I heard them introduce
11 themselves. But that introduction, the greetings and formalities, I didn't
12 note those things down.
13 Q. If we are to believe that the participants are as designated
14 here, not a single name begins with the letter K. Therefore, it is
15 possible that there was another participant who was not mentioned. Someone
16 whose name begins with a K?
17 A. Yes, there is a captain, K means captain, and in this case it is
18 Milosevic. K, captain. We have Matkovic and Milosevic. And we cannot
19 have two collocutors with the same initial or with the same letter used
20 throughout, so this K should be Matkovic.
21 Q. Let us go to the next page, 1877. These are the last four
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, Matkovic or Milosevic? K stands for
24 Matkovic or for Milosevic? Because when he said K stands for captain, I
25 got the impression that he was referring to Captain Milosevic. Was he
1 referring to Captain Milosevic or to Captain Matkovic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] K is Captain Milosevic.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On the next page it begins with 19 K and 1900. Could you please
6 read out the names of participants?
7 A. Colonel Andric, Brana, that was the name for the switchboard, and
8 Zlatar, Palma, and Captain Milosevic.
9 Q. They also did not introduce themselves in this text, it is the
10 same case as the previous intercept. You did not put the three dots that
11 you usually put?
12 A. It's not there, but it should be on the recording or on the piece
13 of paper where I initially noted it down.
14 Q. Therefore, the recording is the more authentic one?
15 A. It should be.
16 Q. And if there is something missing on the tape, it means it wasn't
17 said; isn't that so?
18 A. Well, I wrote things down on a piece of paper. I don't know what
19 I wrote down in this particular case. And I don't know what originally
20 came from the tape. I cannot hear it now so as to be able to tell you
21 whether it came from the tape or from the paper.
22 Q. I understand you. But in both my questions in both of these
23 intercepts you said if I were given the recording I could tell you.
24 Therefore I'm asking you whether the recording is the most authentic
25 recording or transcription of a given intercept?
1 A. I don't know. I don't know about this particular case. This was
2 a long time ago, I listened to many intercepts, and I'm explaining to you
3 the practice that was in place. I would note down the collocutors who may
4 or may not have introduced themselves. But as to whether it is on the
5 actual recording, well, I don't know. Sometimes we would start recording a
6 bit later. I could hear something in my headset, but by the time I've
7 pressed a button, it may be gone.
8 Q. But without a switchboard designation, you cannot say for sure
9 who the collocutors are and where they come from.
10 A. Could you please repeat that?
11 Q. Without the specific switchboard designator --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Popovic,
13 are you all right? If you are not all right, please tell us.
14 THE ACCUSED POPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was promised
15 that I would be examined by a physician during the next break.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Weren't you examined before the sitting? Before we
18 THE ACCUSED POPOVIC: [Interpretation] They couldn't locate the
19 doctor, the physician.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's stop here and give him the
21 opportunity. I was watching him, he is obviously having problems with his
22 eyes. Let's have a 20-minute break, if we need to prolong it until he's
23 seen by the doctor, we will do so. You will keep us informed. I'm sorry
24 for interrupting you like this, Madam Nikolic, but in any event it is time
25 for the break, okay. 20 minutes.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Popovic, I have been informed by Madam
4 Registrar about the developments. I have, after discussing with the other
5 judges given instructions -- it's okay, you can remain seated. I've given
6 instructions to locate the doctor as early as possible and get him here to
7 visit you. In the meantime, if you are feeling uncomfortable following the
8 proceedings, do let us know and we can let you sit somewhere else where you
9 don't have all this light on your eyes and whatever.
10 So, Madam Nikolic.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We managed to move a mountain. Mr. Popovic, the
14 doctor is now available and he can see you. So I don't know what the
15 procedure is for security to escort him downstairs to the clinic.
16 In the meantime, I take it that we can continue, Mr. Zivanovic?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Nikolic.
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Sir, I have only a few questions left. We left off when we were
21 discussing participants and switchboards. I wanted to ask you this: When
22 you have no switchboard noted down, we don't know where the collocutors are
23 calling from?
24 A. One could know that because of the channels used, the channels
25 they regularly used. I don't know in which specific cases that could have
1 been done, but certain switchboards always used certain channels.
2 Q. But we couldn't establish that as a rule?
3 A. Well, it wasn't always like that.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Nikolic.
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I will have but a few questions for you for the sake of
12 clarification. Today on several occasions you mentioned that when
13 listening in to the conversations, you would note down the beginning on a
14 certain piece of paper. Do you remember that?
15 A. I said that I used a piece of paper to note down the participants
16 as well as the channel and frequency, or the number that was on the UHER
17 recorder, something that would jog my memory, something that I could
18 immediately link to a specific conversation. If they discussed ammunition
19 I would note down "ammo."
20 Q. What happened with those pieces of paper?
21 A. We would usually throw it away.
22 Q. A part of the conversation, that part written down on that piece
23 of paper, would that be transferred into the notebook or would none of it
24 be transferred into the notebook?
25 A. We would put in the channel, time, and frequency, as well as the
1 participants. We would transfer that into the notebook, yes.
2 Q. Why then write it down on a piece of paper first and then put it
3 into a notebook?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
5 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, this has been gone over by this witness
6 already in this session, or the previous session.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection upheld. Next question, or rephrase the
8 question if you are eliciting some other kind of information, Mr.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. The things you wrote down on those pieces of paper, would you do
12 that simultaneously while listening to the conversation?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Again, Your Honour, I think that was clear from his
15 prior answers.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, please try to review or revisit areas of the
17 testimony that he himself, let alone others, that he himself has already
18 testified about. You've got 15 minutes, try to concentrate on what is
19 really fundamental for your client, if there is anything fundamental for
20 your client.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I did
22 not wish to repeat myself, I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. I
23 will try and rephrase my question.
24 Q. When you noted things down into notebooks would you write it down
25 simultaneously while listing to what had been recorded, or would you use
1 the portion written down on that piece of paper as well?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: Asked and answered. I'm reluctant to further the
4 delay by objecting, but it's been asked and answered.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one slight aspect to it that maybe has not
6 been answered, but let's proceed. Answer the question, I think it will
7 come to the end quicker that way. Go ahead.
8 Did you understand the question?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think your microphone is switched off. And could
11 you repeat what you said, please, because the interpreters couldn't hear
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the question.
14 Concerning the piece of paper, a part of that information would
15 be entered into the notebook. Several conversations would be recorded, one
16 after another, and I would note down information about those conversations
17 on a piece of paper. And then I would rewind the tape and listen, or
18 rather relisten to the conversations. Then I would decide on what
19 information would be taken down into the notebook and what would not.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough. Next question, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. The next thing I wanted to ask you is this: Please focus on what
23 you have before you, on what you have in the notebook. In the text you
24 have in front of you, you wrote the channel and the time; isn't that so?
25 A. Yes, yes. The channel and the time.
1 Q. In the typed version of the same text, we have the azimuth and
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Based on what information would the typist write down the azimuth
5 and the frequency?
6 A. I would write down the frequency while listening to the
7 conversation. I was working with the RRU-800, and at the beginning on this
8 page here, you could see the frequency, the channel and the time. And all
9 the conversations were on the same frequency. The azimuth was already --
10 or had been typed into the computer. We had templates. And then we would
11 simply copy it, depending on the number of conversations, with this
12 particular frequency, 822 megahertz, and then we would have 45 and the
13 channel, or rather we would put in the channel, the time and the
14 collocutors subsequently. The frequency had already been entered, as well
15 as the channel, perhaps, and then we would transfer data from the notebook.
16 Q. To conclude, there are discrepancies or differences between what
17 was written into the notebooks and the typed versions. Which of the two is
18 more authentic, more correct?
19 A. Linguistically speaking, the typed version, the computer version.
20 Grammatically it is more correct; I have no commas, I have only a few
21 question marks or dots, full stops.
22 Q. Which of the two texts would reflect the actual conversation more
24 A. The typed version. The computer one. But to repeat,
25 grammatically speaking, it would be more correct.
1 Q. You're missing the thrust of my question. Which of the two texts
2 would be closer to the original, to the actual conversation that had been
4 A. The one in the computer was more authentic because of the commas
5 and so on. But he basically typed out what I had written. They're both --
6 I mean there are shades, nuances of difference between the two.
7 Q. But you believe that the typewritten text is more authentic?
8 A. Again, I say it's grammatically more correct, but as far as I'm
9 concerned the one that I wrote down by hand is more authentic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 Madam Fauveau.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Would it
15 be possible to go to -- would it be possible to go in closed session to
16 quote the Krstic case.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, yes. Go into private session, please.
18 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, in this case a question was asked from you to know how the
3 persons who were speaking and you were listening to could know that their
4 conversation was being intercepted, and you answered: "[In English] They
5 could hear it on the radio, and the standard procedure in the JNA was to
6 take it as granted that the enemy was listening in. This was always a
7 standard warning issued to everyone, 'the enemy is listening'."
8 [Interpretation] Sir, did I understand you rightly that indeed
9 the persons of the Republika Srpska army of which you were listening to
10 knew that they were being listened to?
11 A. This had to do with General Mladic in 1992, I think. He was
12 recorded, a conversation of his. Actually not one, but several were
13 recorded where he was ordering something about live bait, or live meat. So
14 they played that over the civilian radio station. This was a recording of
15 that conversation of his, which I think was absurd to play a recording like
16 that on the air waves, but it was their decisions, it wasn't up to me.
17 As for "the enemy is listening," that was standard procedure, and
18 it was written on every phone, on every telephone, "the enemy is
20 Q. My question -- my question was to know whether those who were
21 being listened could know that they were being listened to.
22 A. I don't know that. You would have to ask them if they knew or
23 did not know that we were listening.
24 Q. Is it true that your unit and the south site also should be on --
25 should try and jam the conversations, besides listening in to them?
1 A. Depends on the range. And it depends on the equipment that it
2 was supposed to be blocking or interfering with. There were some hand-held
3 radio stations and things. We also had a device for interference, it was
4 called Kobac Holk [phoen] and it was a receiver -- a transmitter that could
5 be operated from a helicopter and it operated on the RRU-1 range, so from
6 235 to 270 megahertz, it could interfere with the equipment. We didn't
7 have such devices for an RRU-800 that could interfere with signals from
8 that kind of device.
9 Q. Were these people in charge of jamming the conversations on RRU-1
10 were in the same unit as yours? They belonged to the same unit, did they?
11 A. Yes, it was the same unit. But it was just the interference
12 section, they were named differently.
13 Q. The commander was also their commander, was he?
14 A. They were attached. The platoon commander was the one from the
15 electronic surveillance, but I don't know whether the section for
16 interference was a section or a sector or a platoon. But it was together
17 with us, together with the electronic surveillance department in the same
18 section. As for the command, I don't know if the platoon commander was
19 also the commander of that section or not. I am not sure who was
20 commanding the interference unit when they were part of our section.
21 Q. Is it true that a person in your squad was in charge of coding,
22 encoding and encrypting?
23 A. Yes. There was a person for encryption of telegrams.
24 Q. How many members of your team could encrypt telegrams?
25 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were plenty. Each shift
1 at the facility had the encryption person and then we also had a person
2 from another unit from the communication centre. It was a person who also
3 worked on encryption.
4 Q. Is it true that the chief of the squad had the power, the
5 possibility to encrypt telegrams?
6 A. I don't know about him specifically. He had oversight of that.
7 We couldn't print all the documents because there was a shortage of
8 printing paper, so we were not able to do that. And he had to work on this
9 using the computer. He would have to look at anything that came in on the
10 computer, I was also signed in as an encryption person so that I would also
11 be able to read the documents.
12 Q. Did I understand you, you and your commander, your direct chief
13 or commander, could access directly to the computer?
14 A. Yes. We could use the computer. Which was also used for the
15 crypto-protection work.
16 Q. Do you know if the person who sent the reports containing the
17 intercepts also sent the reports concerning the jamming of conversations
18 concerning some intercepts?
19 A. I don't know. I'm not informed about that, no.
20 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D158?
21 Q. Sir, this is a report of November 1994, and I would like you to
22 enlighten me on two points. First of all you have in front of you an
23 intercept, isn't it?
24 A. I really cannot see. This is not sharp enough on my monitor.
25 Q. Could this be blown up a bit? May it be enlarged a bit, please.
1 A. Could I please have the hard copy?
2 Q. Sir, could you have a look at this paper, but please confirm it.
3 I'm just asking you if it was an intercept, I'm not asking you to comment
4 upon it or to analyse it. Just tell me if it is an intercept.
5 A. Yes. This is an intercept.
6 Q. And if you look at the bottom of the page, there is a note
7 concerning the jamming of conversations. Is that true? On the last
9 A. Yes, it says, "Remark." This is the radio station frequency, a
10 hand-held radio station. It could also be a stationary one, but that could
11 apply to that as well.
12 Q. Could the top of the document be shown?
13 Sir, can you see the rectangular seal at the top of the document?
14 I would like to know if you had an opportunity to see such stamps on
15 documents when you were in your unit.
16 A. Yes, I have seen it before.
17 Q. Do you know who used to put this stamp on the document?
18 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure, 100 per cent. I think this was done
19 by the encryption operator.
20 Q. Therefore, this seal would have been stamped there by the person
21 who was sending the report or the person who received the report on site?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
23 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, he just testified he wasn't sure.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sustained. Move to the next question, please.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, could you tell me, and this is my last question, to whom you
2 sent or to whom the operator who encrypted would send the report, the
3 operator who was encrypting, to whom did he send this report, please?
4 A. I cannot see from what is here whom he would --
5 Q. Sir, my question was of a general nature. Answer only if you
6 know. Do you know to whom the report of your unit was being sent?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
8 MR. THAYER: That question is of such a general nature that I'm
9 not sure that it can be answered in the way it's been asked.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but if he knows, he can answer it. If he
11 don't know, he won't answer it.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The encryption operator knew to
13 whom the radio reports were supposed to be sent. This radio report --
14 well, there was analysis section in the unit, I don't know if he took it
15 first to the company commander or if he directly handed it over to the
16 section that analysed the intercepts.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other question, Mr.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I take it that the other Defence teams
20 do not wish to cross-examine the witness? Mr. Haynes, what about Mr.
22 MR. HAYNES: Mr. Sarapa is been delayed on his way back from
23 Belgrade, he's been sick the last week or so.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I asked you just for the record, if for no other
1 Is there any re-examination, Mr. Thayer?
2 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. There are no further questions for you,
4 sir, which means that your testimony ends here. On behalf of the
5 Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come over to give evidence and on
6 behalf of everyone here, I wish you a safe journey back home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through the document-tendering process.
10 There is a Prosecution list, descriptive list, which has been communicated
11 to you, I suppose? Yes, I note Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I object to Exhibit 2352C. Or
13 rather D. 2352D, which is the audiotape. First of all, it's not a tape,
14 it's either a CD or a DVD, and even more important, we don't know whether
15 it's the original or a copy, and if it is a copy, a copy of what? What is
16 the original material that the copy is derived from, who made it and when?
17 And for these reasons we object about this being admitted as an exhibit.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Any further comments
19 from the Defence teams? I hear none.
20 Mr. Thayer, would you please address the two points or three
21 points raised by Mr. Popovic -- Mr. Zivanovic.
22 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President. Again, this is a CD
23 recording that has been made from a reel-to-reel tape which is contained --
24 I believe which contains previously admitted conversations which have been
25 played in this courtroom. Again, had there been a request, we would have
1 informed Defence counsel of that specific information. But that is the
2 providence of the recording that was played today. The Defence has been
3 furnished with the CD copy of the very recording that was played in court
4 today and it is again based on a reel-to-reel tape which is in our evidence
5 locker, Your Honour, in the vault.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that it's not enough,
9 what the Prosecutor believes, that he believes that as copy of the original
10 tape. That is not sufficient to have this admitted into evidence. We
11 would need to have some reliable proof to know what exactly this is, when
12 the copy was made, by whom, and from what. Was it a copy of a copy or a
13 copy from the original. This is the sort of information we would need to
14 have. Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Again, Your Honour, there's been previous testimony
17 through a witness whose name I won't mention, that described the process of
18 certain tape-recorded materials being furnished to the Office of the
19 Prosecutor. In addition, the witness authenticated the recording himself
20 as being what he heard. Now, whether -- what was played in the courtroom
21 was a CD made of a tape -- a reel-to-reel tape, you know, that's something
22 that can be argued at a later date in terms of the authenticity. But this
23 witness authenticated the tape, he listened to it before, he listened to it
24 in the courtroom, and he identified that as the conversation he listened
25 to. We've already had previous testimony describing the process by which
1 the tapes were furnished to this office.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Thayer.
3 Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that there are two things
5 here my learned friend, Mr. Thayer, is mixing up. One thing is that the
6 witness said this is a conversation identical to the one he noted down but
7 he didn't say that was the actual conversation he recorded. Obviously the
8 conversation was recorded on a reel-to-reel recorder, and this is not what
9 was played here. The witness did not provide any information about the
10 rerecording of the conversation, who, when, whether it's from the original
11 tape or from some other media. I think we would need to clarify these two
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, your final comment, Mr. Thayer, do you have
14 any? The witness that had come over and testified about the handing of
15 material from -- from BiH, ministry of justice or home affairs, et cetera,
16 did that information cover this audiotape as well or not?
17 MR. THAYER: I believe it did, Your Honour. And if upon review
18 of the record it didn't, we can certainly present that information later,
19 but that is my understanding. That this -- this conversation was included
20 along with at least two other conversations which have been played in this
21 courtroom on the same reel to reel.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And the other thing is that the
23 conversion from reel to reel to CD format was done here at the office of
24 the Prosecution, or way back in BiH?
25 MR. THAYER: That was done here, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And you can provide information as to who did it?
2 MR. THAYER: Certainly.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And I suppose this would be logged in
4 your records?
5 MR. THAYER: I can't vouch for every step of the recording. I
6 presume at some level there is a notation that the evidence was taken out
7 of the vault, for example, and something was done with it, but I can't
8 represent that to the Court.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And if there is a request by any of the
10 Defence teams, significantly from Mr. Zivanovic, to have the original reel
11 to reel that came into your possession a time back, would it be possible
12 for you to make it available?
13 MR. THAYER: Absolutely. That has been a standing offer for a
14 couple of months now.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any further objections on any of the other
16 documents that the Prosecution seeks to tender? All right.
17 So first two are admitted under seal. Rest, please refer to the
18 Prosecution document, what's involved goes under seal. Intercepts are
19 marked for identification purposes, same as regards the notebook. Let me
20 consult my colleagues on the audiotape and we will tell you exactly what's
21 the position.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So our decision on the audiotape is that it will be
24 received for the time being marked for identification. And that's because
25 it forms part of the general objection that there is from the Defence teams
1 in relation to the authenticity of the entire process of intercepting and
2 transcribing the intercepts.
3 So then Mr. Zivanovic, you have two documents.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we did furnish a
5 list of the documents that were used in the cross-examination, and it's
6 with the Registrar.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... first one, BiH
8 proposal for promotion, did you make use of it with the witness?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, for counsel.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The first exhibit
11 is 1D157 and the second one is 2D50, I think.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: The 2D50 that I'm referring you to. Okay. So
13 these two documents are admitted marked for identification for the time
14 being pending translation, unless there is an objection, a substantive
15 objection on the part of the Prosecution.
16 MR. THAYER: None, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I hear none.
18 JUDGE KWON: Both under seal.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, both under seal.
20 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation].
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 5D. Can you repeat, please?
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] 5D158.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections?
25 MR. THAYER: None, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Has this been translated? I don't think so, that's
2 why I am asking.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, but I'll let you
4 know as soon as a translation is available.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. So it will have the same fate as the
6 previous documents, it will be marked for identification and automatically
7 promoted then once we have a confirmation of a translation which is
9 All right. Mr. Zivanovic, yes.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I also used the
11 2355, the Prosecutor's intercept book. I don't think that the entire
12 notebook was tendered into evidence by the Prosecutor, so I would just like
13 to add that I used that one page with the date when the notebook was
14 registered, that was entered on that page.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
16 Madam Registrar, do you think you can locate, identify the page
18 -- from the transcript that was made use of.
19 THE REGISTRAR: It is my understanding that Prosecution tendered
20 the whole document.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That solves the problem; in other words, we
22 don't have a problem.
23 I am advised that since the next witness has been granted the
24 protective measures of voice distortion, we need to stop the sitting for
25 about 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes. Five to 10 minutes so they make the
1 necessary installation of the special microphone.
2 As soon as they are ready, we will -- I don't think we're going
3 downstairs, we will stay here.
4 --- Break taken at 4.53 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 5.03 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: [French on English channel].
8 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems that someone has decided that we don't
9 understand your English.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: I've heard that before. I've -- during the break,
11 I spoke with the Popovic team and they have confirmed that we can go ahead,
12 even though it is a new witness now, that that's not a problem and there is
13 one matter I wanted to raise in private session, it will take two seconds.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, let's go into private session.
15 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir. Welcome to this
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You are about to start giving evidence, and our
7 rules require that you enter a solemn declaration to the effect that your
8 testimony will be truthful, that you will be testifying the truth in other
9 words. Madam usher is handing you the text now, please read it out and
10 that will be your commitment to this Tribunal that you will testify the
12 WITNESS: PW-134
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a seat, and make yourself
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: In order to make you feel more relaxed while you're
20 giving evidence, we have granted you some protective measures, which I hope
21 are to your satisfaction. I understand they have already been explained to
22 you. One is we will not refer to you by name, we will use a pseudonym, and
23 then your face and your voice will be distorted. In other words, I suppose
24 this has been explained to you. What I want to know is whether this is to
25 your satisfaction.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Nicholls will be examining you now, and
3 then he will be followed by cross-examinations from the various Defence
5 Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. Could I start by showing
7 the witness and my colleagues the pseudonym sheet.
8 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
9 Q. Sir, could you please read the pseudonym sheet. Please don't
10 read it out, could you just confirm yes or no, is that your name written on
11 the sheet?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: That will be PO2357 under seal, if it could be
14 shown to my colleagues.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
17 Q. Sir, we're going to try and go through this quite rapidly. I
18 have a short direct examination. As we talked about earlier, please try to
19 keep your answers concise, if you can.
20 First, in your own language in my office, did you read your May
21 1999 ICTY statement, the entire statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you attest that that statement accurately reflects what you
24 stated during the taking of this statement, that that information that is
25 there is accurately recorded?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you also attest that your answers would be the same today
3 if you were asked the same questions that formed the basis for that
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I will now read a brief summary of
7 that statement.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: The witness was born in 1966. He is a Muslim by
10 faith. As a teenager, he earned a diploma in electronic communications.
11 The witness joined the ABiH army in September 1992. And in October, he
12 joined the Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit or PEB of the 2nd Corps. He became
13 a squad commander in this unit and remained so until April 1993, at which
14 time he was transferred elsewhere to work on a system related to Morse code
16 At the end of 1993, the witness was assigned to actively monitor
17 VRS command lines of communications. And this was at what we have referred
18 to as the southern location. From the spring of 1994, the witness was
19 assigned elsewhere, and returned to his monitoring duties now at the
20 northern location, in the spring of 1995.
21 The process described by the witness in his statement of
22 recording and transcribing intercepts at the northern location is similar
23 or identical to the process we've heard many times. From June or early
24 July 1995, the witness worked at this northern location as a signals
25 communicator. He would encrypt intercepts and send them to the higher
1 command. However, during this time, he also continued to monitor and
2 transcribe intercepts as necessary.
3 The witness was shown a notebook from this location and
4 recognised his handwriting on several pages of the intercepts. The witness
5 listened to an audiotaped conversation between General Krstic and Major
6 Obrenovic which he recognised as a conversation that he had intercepted and
7 transcribed in notebook 106. The witness left the ABiH in 1996.
8 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to ask you a few questions about the review
9 of intercepts that we did together in my office. Do you recall reviewing
10 15 handwritten intercepts in my office on a blue binder, such as the one
11 I'm holding up, with tabs?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You recognise your handwriting on each written intercept in that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You also reviewed the original notebooks which contained these
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You recognise your handwriting as well for each of the intercepts
20 in the packet in the corresponding original notebooks?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And can you confirm to the Court that you recorded and
23 transcribed all of the 15 intercepts contained in the packet?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I'm now going to ask you just a couple questions about your work
1 as an encryptor. From June-July of 1995 you worked at the northern
2 location. The question is, when an intercept operator gave you a -- an
3 intercept in a notebook to type up, encrypt and send off, did you ever make
4 changes in the -- from the notebook to the final printout?
5 A. For the most part, no.
6 Q. On the occasions when changes were made, why were they made and
7 how did that come up, if you can answer briefly?
8 A. In case I would notice something that would strike me as
9 illogical in the handwritten text, I would consult the operator, who had
10 taken it down from the tape, and we would work on it together. Sometimes
11 we would involve other people as well, if need be, and we would go back and
12 relisten to the given intercept so as to be able to establish whether there
13 was a mistake made. If we found one, we would make the necessary changes
14 in the printed version.
15 Q. Thank you. I would now like to show you an intercept and ask you
16 a couple questions about it. This is the intercept at tab 13, 65 ter
17 number 0993, and if I could have B up on the screen, which is the
18 handwritten version. If we could also have the translation, which I
19 believe is A. And scroll down to the bottom, please.
20 Now, we see the names in brackets next to X and Y, and I'm
21 referring to where it says General Krstic and Borovcanin of the specials.
22 Can you tell me what the brackets mean when we see the brackets in one of
23 your intercepts?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. You left your microphone on, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I apologise.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Registrar, I think you need to go back to
4 the moment he started answering this question. All right? And no
5 transmission. Please be careful, because I mean we have to concentrate on
6 many things, an extra one is always an extra. So...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So based on the beginning of the
8 conversation, we would decide whether to tape it or not. What would happen
9 usually was that we wouldn't know who the collocutors were, and then we
10 would mark them as the person X and Y. Later on, if we learned of their
11 identity during the conversation, then we would subsequently add their
12 names in the brackets. We would write down -- designate which is
13 collocutor X and the collocutor Y.
14 MR. NICHOLLS:
15 Q. Thank you. In this intercept in line 2, it states, "Hello, this
16 is Borovcanin, General, how are you?" And at the top of the intercept, in
17 the parenthetical, you have written "Borovcanin from the specials." Can
18 you tell us why you wrote that, "from the specials," after Borovcanin's
19 name at the top?
20 A. Most likely I heard that on the device, I heard him introduce
21 himself. But that part had not been recorded. That is why it is not in
22 the transcribed portion.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. If I could have the printout up,
24 please, which is C. And I understand it will not be broadcast. Okay. I
25 need to show a little bit more of the top, please. That's fine.
1 Could I go into private session, very briefly?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Private session, please.
3 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are in open session.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. I'd like to now ask you a question about another intercept, this
20 is the one at tab 15. And if I could have 1387B on the screen, please.
21 And while that's coming up, sir, I can ask you, do you recall
22 that I played you a CD recording of a conversation in my office?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you recognise that recording?
25 A. Excuse me. The text I see on the screen, well that's not the
1 recording I had heard. It was another one.
2 Q. Yes, you're jumping ahead of me a little bit. If we could scroll
3 down a little bit on the screen. And let me ask my question again. When I
4 played you that recording, did you recognise the recording?
5 A. The one I can see now, yes.
6 Q. And then just to be clear, the recording I played you, you
7 recognised, was the same recording which you've transcribed here in the
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
11 And this is, for the record, I said 1387B, but it is the
12 intercept which begins on page 0080-4463 that took place at 9.50 and
13 continues on the following page. I'm done with that.
14 Can we go into private session now?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session, please.
16 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: 5.30. Earlier we had a mind stopping for 15
1 minutes' break after the Prosecution finished their examination-in-chief.
2 But because of that microphone glitch, I need your advice. 20 minutes.
3 All right. I think we can't do it otherwise. So we'll have a break of 20
4 minutes now. And then we will continue and proceed until 7.00 without a
6 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So, let's proceed. Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening, sir. Reading the statement you
12 gave to the investigators, I saw that in 1994, the spring of 1994, you were
13 transferred to the communications centre for anti-electronic warfare in the
14 2nd Corps. Do you recall that?
15 A. It's possible, I cannot remember the exact date.
16 Q. In the statement, it says that you received encrypted telexes
17 from these other locations, such as this location where you went later and
18 that you talked about later. Do you recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the accused Popovic is back in the
22 [The accused Popovic enters court]
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. While you were receiving these crypto-protected reports from
25 these locations, did you have any kind of record of the reports that you
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. From 1995 onwards when you came here to testify, did you have an
4 opportunity to see these records?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can you tell me if the records were in a notebook or a book?
7 A. I cannot remember.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we now please look at the following document:
10 Can you see that this is a document with the title protocol?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That it was sent by the encryption section from one of these
13 locations, that it sent to the company, the encryption company of the 2nd
14 Corps, there is a date there, but it's outside of the time that is relevant
15 for the -- for us. Then there is an encoded name underneath of eight
16 letters and numbers. There is a date and a time and then there is a
17 greeting from the unit that is sending out the document. What I would like
18 to know is whether you remember if such documents were drafted in the
19 platoon that sent these documents or in the company that received the
21 A. I cannot remember that.
22 Q. Thank you. You said that you worked at this facility, whose name
23 I will not mention, from April 1995; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. Actually, I think it's May 1995.
25 Q. Thank you. You worked there also on listening in as well as a
1 communications person; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you were intercepting the conversations, you were
4 transcribing the conversations into a notebook; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. These were notebooks given to you by your unit's command; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And before you received the notebooks, they were given a
10 registration number and a date when these notebooks were registered; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you gave your first statement to the Hague Tribunal
14 investigators you told them what you wrote down in the notebooks, of course
15 you remember that. I'm just going to remind you that you wrote down the
16 usual things and what others also mentioned before; the frequency, the
17 channel, the collocutors if you knew them, but you also said that you wrote
18 down the tape number. Do you remember that?
19 A. I cannot recall exactly.
20 Q. You cannot recall having said that?
21 A. I have probably said that, but since a lot of time has passed I
22 cannot be certain.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Just the usual, if he's going to be asked what he
25 said to us and what is written down, it makes sense to give him a copy in
1 his language.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct. You are correct. If you are going to
3 elaborate on this, please make the text available to the witness, Mr.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show D252 to the
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, just -- this should not be broadcast,
9 because it's got --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Instructions, Mr. Nicholls, are that they are not
11 broadcast unless we say so.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel repeat the number, please?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 2D52. Page 3 of the B/C/S. Also
14 page 3 of the English. Could we please have -- well, very well.
15 Q. Page 3, the penultimate paragraph. The third sentence of that
16 paragraph. It reads: "I would note down the time, either based on my
17 watch or the clock that was on the recorder. I would also note down the
18 frequency, the channel and the tape number, since they all had numbers.
19 The counter and participants, if it was possible to identify them."
20 Do you recall it now?
21 A. I believe it was so.
22 Q. You had the opportunity to see the notebooks. You were shown
23 them by the Prosecutor, not only here in the courtroom, but in his office
24 as well; isn't that so?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you, in any of those notebooks, see the tape number?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you see in any of the notebooks the state on the counter, the
4 number on the counter?
5 A. No.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I would kindly ask you to have a look at a document, and I have
9 to tell you that it wasn't drafted by you; however, you are the first
10 person to address encryption. The first witness that we have who worked on
11 encrypting the intercepts, and you may be the last as well. Could you
12 please explain, therefore, some of the principles in place, because the
13 colleagues of yours whom we heard before you were not familiar with that
14 portion of the work.
15 It is Exhibit 1D93. As you can see, there is a correction. It
16 wasn't sent from your facility, but from another one. First of all, in the
17 heading you can see a number. It says, "Top secret," and then the number.
18 Can you tell me whether that number was typed into the computer by the
19 operator or was it a pre-programmed number automatically assigned to each
20 of the documents in the computer?
21 A. I cannot remember exactly.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you, then. I presume you cannot recall
23 anything about the date as well, you don't know whether it was typed in by
24 hand or whether it was allocated by the computer itself?
25 A. No, we typed in the dates.
1 Q. If you go through the text on the correction, basically it is
2 only one sentence long. Would you agree with me if I said that you can see
3 there that by comparing the protocol numbers, the sender of the report, the
4 person from the platoon, realised that the person who was supposed to
5 receive it at the company did not receive one of the three report files
6 which had been sent the day before on the 2nd of August, 1995?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it correct if I say that that file had been sent the day
9 before the 2nd of August, 1995, at 11.30?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 11.33.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is it correct that it was a file which was the first out of the
14 three report files?
15 A. I presume so.
16 Q. It says, "Our first report file was not received." Then we have
17 a TBTD28NB?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Is it correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Finally, is it correct that in addition to this correction the
24 sender resent the file which they believed had not been received?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Below the line there is a number, a figure. Having a look at the
2 number, can you determine whether that was the file which had not been
3 received by the company?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you see the text of the report there? If you do, you will
6 see that it includes three conversations in one report.
7 Could we please scroll down the text for the witness so that he
8 could see what follows. This is the second conversation, and on the next
9 page we have the third.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can we conclude then, therefore, that these conversations, the
12 last of which was at 10.00; isn't that so?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The one before was at 9.50. Could you please scroll up. The
15 previous page. 9.50, the conversation below. Isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And the one just above was at 9.30?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. May we conclude, therefore, that this was the first report file
22 which had not been sent or rather there was no proof of reception of the
23 report having been sent at 11.33?
24 A. It is possible.
25 Q. Do you see any other possibility there?
1 A. No.
2 Q. May we conclude that the other two report files were indeed sent
3 at 11.33?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. These files should have had consecutive numbers. If the first
8 one was 02, then what should have followed was 03 and 04, if I understood
9 it well.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. We were told by the Prosecutor that yesterday you had
12 a telephone conversation with another witness; is that correct?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You did not have a telephone conversation with another witness?
15 A. I apologise. It was via the hotel extension. Yes, there was a
17 Q. I'm only asking you about this because in their notification,
18 they told us that you inter alia discussed the meaning of these codes that
19 we see on the screen, for example, the ones we've just discussed. We see
20 the TBTD28NB code?
21 A. No, we didn't discuss that.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Witness, don't start giving your
23 answer to the question until you see Mr. Zivanovic's microphone off. We
24 are trying to protect your identity as much as we can, and that's one way
25 of doing it.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. In that letter from the Prosecutor, we were also told that the
3 code as seen here means the following: The first two letters pertain to
4 the sender of the file; is that correct? Do you remember that?
5 A. I don't.
6 Q. We were also told that the following two letters pertained to the
7 receiver; do you recall that?
8 A. It is possible, but I cannot recall.
9 Q. We were also told that the following two letters or digits
10 pertained to the date. Do you recall that?
11 A. No.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
13 questions for this witness. Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
15 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honours, I was wondering if a
17 translation was - may be available for the last document used by my
18 colleague, because we haven't found it, but this is, if I'm correct, the
19 same document used in the first week of December, so I didn't know if we
20 have one that I was missing or if it is not yet available.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you. Maybe Mr. Zivanovic can.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we used this
23 document during the examination of another witness. I can mention his name
24 in a private session because it's a protected name. That's when the
25 translation was asked for. But we still don't have it. I don't know if
1 the translation of that document has been completed.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. The Beara team, Defence team. Mr.
4 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, at this time we don't believe we
5 have any questions. I believe Ms. Nikolic will cross-examine next, and
6 after it's all said and done I may have questions. Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek.
8 Ms. Nikolic.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening, sir.
12 A. Good evening.
13 Q. I would like to put just a few questions to you relating to one
14 of the intercepts which you recognised from amongst the 15 that you were
15 shown in the Prosecutor's office in preparation for this testimony. It's
16 the intercept at tab 7. Could we please show the witness exhibit marked
17 for identification 2358D, and in English 2358E. The English is the D
18 version, and the B/C/S version is marked as D. So the witness should look
19 at version D.
20 Sir, could you please look at this report compiled at your
21 location. Familiarise yourself with the text. And my question is: When
22 you listened to this conversation and when you transcribed it, you did not
23 hear the name of the switchboard or the collocutors on the tape?
24 A. I cannot remember. I don't have it here. I probably did,
25 because it's written down, but I really cannot recall this specific
2 Q. During the conversation, one of the collocutors introduced
3 himself, that's Jankovic, and that's when you introduced that name. The
4 second collocutor did not introduce himself, so he remained as Y; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The name of the switchboard was not mentioned on the tape,
8 otherwise you would have written it down, whether it was badem, bakar or
10 A. Yes, that is very probable.
11 Q. If you don't have the name of the switchboard it's hard to know
12 which unit the collocutors belonged to; is that correct?
13 A. My assignment wasn't to know which unit the collocutors belonged
15 Q. I agree, but now if we were reading it and wanted to establish
16 from which unit the collocutors came from, we wouldn't be able to establish
17 that, just like you were not able to establish that; is that correct?
18 A. Well, at this time I wouldn't be able to determine that.
19 Q. Probably if you had the tape you would be able to relisten to it
20 and then see?
21 A. Maybe yes, and maybe no.
22 Q. You would agree with me that the last name Nikolic is quite a
23 common name in that area and that there were a lot of participants with
24 that last name?
25 A. I agree with that.
1 Q. If I were to tell you that just in the Drina Corps there were 272
2 soldiers and officers with this last name, you would agree with me,
3 wouldn't you?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, microphone.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, I have no
7 further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
9 MR. JOSSE: Apparently I'm to go next, Your Honour. I'm quite
10 happy to, I won't be very long.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:
12 Q. Witness, it's right, isn't it, that the SDB operated at the same
13 location, the one where you worked?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, just for clarity to narrow that down,
17 because there were several places he worked at I talked about in the
18 summary and -- but it's up to my friend.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
20 MR. JOSSE: We'd better go into private session.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so. That's what we'd better do.
22 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 MR. JOSSE:
10 Q. Let me repeat my question now that we are back in open session.
11 The question was: Did you do any encryption work for the SDB?
12 A. I really cannot remember. I don't think so though.
13 Q. And you have no recollection of making any corrections to any
14 encryption work for the SDB that would, for example, be different to what
15 you described when you were being asked questioned by my learned friend?
16 In other words, the operation would have been the same for the SDB
17 encryption as for your own, as far as you were concerned; is that right?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think that's a fair question, given his
20 last answer that he doesn't believe that he did so. I don't see how he can
21 speculate whether he did, whether it would have been the same or different
22 along those lines.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's rely on the witness first to see whether he
24 can answer the question as it is. If he finds difficulties with it, then
25 we will ask you to rephrase it. But in the meantime, if he is in a
1 position to give us a reply to it, an answer to it, then he should do so.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember having any
3 contacts with any transcripts or notes or records or files of the SDB.
4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I think that answers the question. And
5 that completes my cross-examination, therefore.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse.
7 Madam Fauveau.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we go into
9 private session for my questions, please?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's do so.
11 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
11 Q. When you came back to the same location in 1995, were there any
12 people in charge of scrambling or jamming telephone conversations?
13 A. No.
14 Q. In the previous statement you made before the Prosecutor's office
15 you said that when a telephone conversation that you recorded seemed to be
16 insignificant or impersonal, you actually went back with a tape. Does this
17 mean you reused the tape or would you first erase what had been recorded
18 beforehand that seemed to be insignificant?
19 A. What seemed insignificant or unimportant was recorded over.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Would it be possible --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Fauveau.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm very sorry to interrupt, but just for the
25 clarity of the record and the transcript, we've got "telephone
1 conversations" in there, which I don't think is what my colleague is asking
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I'm sure you are 100 per cent right. Let's go
4 around it can in an easy way because it is not a problem.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies from the interpreter's booth.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise, I will ask the same
7 question, because there is a mistake in the transcript, in the English
8 version, that is.
9 Q. So, when you rewind to record a new conversation which seemed
10 insignificant, was this conversation actually -- or the previous
11 conversation erased or would you actually just rerecord on the same tape?
12 A. I don't understand the question all that well, but I will give
13 you an answer, perhaps it's satisfactory. When we began to record a
14 conversation and we would be recording it and listening to it at the same
15 time. When we concluded that it was a private conversation that was
16 unimportant, we would go back on the counter to the beginning of this
17 unimportant conversation and then for the next conversation we would again
18 begin recording. So then this first unimportant conversation would be
19 recorded over, a new conversation would be recorded over it.
20 Q. Thank you. You answered very clearly to my question. Now, in
21 this case I would like to ask you would it have been possible that at any
22 time the new conversation would have not been recorded correctly and that
23 the two would overlap? The two conversations, that is.
24 A. The recorded material for the most part was usable. It could be
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we for just a
2 brief moment, move into private session? Because I would like to mention
3 the reference of the Krstic case.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go -- we're already in private session.
5 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, in the case I just mentioned you declared, "[In English] I
13 personally did not rely on recognising the voice but only the information
14 which I heard or recorded on tape. In some cases with respect to
15 recognition of the voice itself, I would ask assistance from a colleague,
16 although I should like to mention once again that I personally avoided
17 identification by relying on the voice."
18 [Interpretation] Sir, in view of what you said beforehand, can we
19 thus conclude that identification through voice recognition is never
20 absolutely reliable?
21 A. Yes and no.
22 Q. I'm not quite sure I understand your answer. Could you clarify
23 that? Say how it could be yes and no?
24 A. If you were to hear the voice of your child calling, would you
25 recognise their voice?
1 Q. That's not up to me to answer any questions, but I understand.
2 Let's say that I understand what you mean, and I'm going to move on to
3 another question.
4 Can we show the witness Exhibit P1112A? 1112B, and the English
5 version is 1112A. Can we show the conversation starting at 12.40, it's the
6 second one on this page.
7 Sir, do you recognise your handwriting on this document?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is this a conversation which you both recorded and transcribed
10 and then sent to your superior command?
11 A. This is a conversation I recorded, transcribed from the tape, but
12 I cannot remember if I was the one who sent it off.
13 Q. And today do you remember this particular conversation? Do you
14 remember the specific moment at which you recorded it?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And you do not know who were the interlocutors in this particular
17 conversation; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But, in any case, today you are sure that you heard clearly one
20 of the interlocutors saying, "[Previous translation continues] [In English]
21 ... trucks and buses and the water tanks should be sent to give them water
22 and food. This morning we organise it here. We will give them everything.
23 I talked with them and we will accept all of the civilians who want to --
24 to and they can stay. Those who don't want to can choose where they will
1 [Interpretation] It is this that you recorded; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And although you don't know exactly who the interlocutors were in
4 this particular conversation, you are sure that there were two members of
5 the army of Republika Srpska; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, since at some point in time you worked on encryption and
8 protection, could you tell us who this report was sent to?
9 A. The report -- well, all the reports were actually sent to the
10 communications centre of the intelligence organ of the 2nd Corps.
11 Q. Was this location, this unit's location in Tuzla?
12 A. If you are thinking of the communications centre of the
13 intelligence organ, then yes.
14 Q. In your statement for the Prosecutor's office in May 1999, you
15 say the responsibility for writing the date down was that of the person in
16 charge of encrypting messages. Would you give any allowance for possible
17 mistakes in the dates on these reports?
18 A. There is the possibility of grave mistake.
19 Q. Can we show the witness -- witness Exhibit 5D159. Could we show
20 the witness the top part of the document.
21 Sir, can you confirm that this is the report which was sent from
22 the location you were stationed at in 1995?
23 A. It's possible.
24 Q. Is it correct that somebody corrected the handwritten date?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Actually, a correction: "A handwritten
1 correction to the date."
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, do you know or did you have an opportunity of seeing this
4 square stamp or rectangular stamp on the document?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you say who placed this stamp on the document?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Is it correct that all official reports bore this stamp?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Sir, can you see the number right above the date starting
13 01/17595. We heard testimony here that number one was the number of a
14 report that was sent one day, and that the numbers following actually
15 represented the date at which the report was sent. Can you confirm the
16 fact that the reports were marked in this particular way?
17 A. I cannot remember, but it's possible.
18 Q. And do you know, you can't remember whether this was the regular
19 procedure, but do you know the date at which a particular procedure would
20 have been set up for the purpose of marking documents and reports?
21 A. No. I can explain. When I began to work in crypto-protection,
22 this was already set up.
23 Q. You said earlier on that you didn't know whether these numbers
24 were handwritten or directly typed, but would you allow the possibility for
25 a human mistake as well as an IT mistake in that there might have been
1 mistakes in these numbers?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I just don't know the value of these kind of open
4 questions of, Can anybody make a mistake? when he's already said once
5 mistakes can be made. I think that is for argument later that doesn't need
6 to go to this witness.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead and answer the question, please. I mean
9 it covers more than what you actually stated.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The text is a typed text. The one
11 that I'm looking at. All of them were like that. Therefore, all the
12 information was typed in by hand. I don't remember specifically in this
13 example where the stamp bears the number of the telegram Q9Q17860A. I
14 don't remember whether this would be automatically generated. There is
15 that possibility. It could be automatically generated or by hand. But the
16 text itself was done by hand. It's a text file. There was no kind of
17 automatic data entry.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Sir, you mentioned the number, I mean the number you just
20 mentioned, and you said that it was typewritten. Does this mean at any
21 point in time all of the reports would bear this number?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can safely move to the next question,
23 Ms. Fauveau.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] To conclude this topic I would like
25 to show the witness Exhibit 5D165.
1 Q. On this document I would like to ask you a brief question
2 regarding the number above the date. Would you agree to say that there is
3 an obvious mistake in this number?
4 A. I agree. I think this was a grave mistake.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I still have a series
6 of questions to ask the witness, and I would like us to move into private
7 session for asking these questions, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
9 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We have got eight minutes left. Who wishes to go
25 next? Mr. Lazarevic.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Well, to be honest, I don't
2 believe I will be able to finish.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you finish one chapter?
4 JUDGE KWON: Can I ask a question before you ask, Mr. Lazarevic?
5 Mr. Witness --
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: But of course, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KWON: It just disappeared. You said on previous document
8 you said there is a grave mistake on the date. How did you know that? Do
9 you follow?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On the computer's keyboard,
11 the number 7 and the slash are on the same key, and the typist typing
12 probably forgot to press the shift key as well as the other one when
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 Mr. Lazarevic.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I think I will have to
17 switch places with Mr. Stojanovic because the neck of this microphone is
18 much longer.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good evening. First of all, for the sake of
21 protection of your identity, when you see the red light go off, only then
22 should you begin talking, so as to not jeopardise the protective measures
23 in place. Did you understand that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, before you came here to testify, we heard a
1 number of your colleagues who worked at both the northern and the southern
2 location and they gave us a certain piece of information that I wanted to
3 corroborate with you. They spoke about the fact that certain people whose
4 conversations were intercepted were or could be recognised based on the
5 features of their voice, the type of speech, the terminology they used, and
6 once they would hear a conversation based on those characteristics, they
7 developed an ability to identify such people. Did you come to possess such
8 a quality as well?
9 A. I did, but I never relied too much on it.
10 Q. Thank you. In any case, I wanted to ask you a follow-up question
11 based on the previous one. In the situation in which you hear a voice for
12 the first time, the voice itself cannot be the basis for identification of
13 that person. Do you agree?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Thank you. A few questions now generally speaking about certain
16 intercepts. You worked and performed the same tasks beginning -- from the
17 beginning of 1993 until the end of the war more or less; is that so?
18 A. Yes, more or less.
19 Q. During that period you had the opportunity to hear thousands of
20 conversations probably, some of which you recorded and transcribed. Is
21 that a fair assessment?
22 A. Well, I can't say for sure, but it is possible.
23 Q. Out of that great number of conversations, although the exact
24 figure is not that important, should mean that it is difficult for you to
25 remember a specific conversation. You do not have an independent
1 recollection of a given conversation or rather to put it in a simpler
2 wording, had you not been given a notebook with your handwriting, you
3 probably would not have been able to recollect a specific conversation.
4 But by viewing or reviewing the notebooks and seeing your handwriting, this
5 is what made it possible for you to be able to say that you indeed listened
6 to that conversation?
7 [Previous translation continues] [In English] ... to start with
8 another topic, this may be, perhaps, the best moment to stop?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, we will continue tomorrow in the
10 afternoon. In the meantime, you are still a witness still testifying.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: I am afraid the answer was not recorded. He
12 agreed with me, but it was not recorded.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It is important that between now and when you
14 resume testifying you do not communicate with anyone about the matters you
15 are giving evidence upon. Is that clear?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And could we have your answer to the previous
18 question, to the last question that Mr. Lazarevic put to you?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer was yes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So have a nice evening, all of you, and we'll meet
21 again tomorrow at 2.15. Thank you.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of
24 January, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.