1 Wednesday, 31 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are here. Defence teams
10 are missing only Ms. Condon, as stated by Mr. Zivanovic, as explained by
11 Mr. Zivanovic. And also I see Mr. Bourgon absent today.
12 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: She is coming tomorrow, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So Mr. Bourgon, I suppose, will be with
15 us soon as well?
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. He's in the
17 office working.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer in
19 the back, no others behind the column.
20 Please take a seat. I will come to you very soon.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: So we did get your message, Mr. Josse; however I
23 don't think there will be need for any further submissions considering
24 what we are going to decide now.
25 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we went through the entire proceedings yesterday
2 dealing with the submission, oral submission of Madam Fauveau to which all
3 the other Defence teams associated themselves. It is a fair statement
4 that we would like to make, and namely that we are broadly satisfied that
5 the Prosecution is endeavoring to comply with our directives considering
6 also the current circumstances. We do, however, once more enjoin the
7 Prosecution to continue to do so.
8 We also wish to state that generally we accept that there is bound
9 to be some irrelevant material in such statements as the present one,
10 especially when one considers that this statement and others like it may
11 have been given or indeed were given for the purposes of other trials too.
12 In the particular case that we have before us it is difficult for the
13 Trial Chamber to establish a priori that everything that the defence teams
14 deem to be irrelevant is indeed irrelevant. As a result we feel that
15 denying the Prosecution request to convert Witness 45 to a 92 ter witness
16 is the best way to proceed forward in this particular instance, and that
17 is our decision. So you will produce this witness viva voce. Not this
18 witness, Witness 45.
19 Now, I come to you, sir. Good afternoon.
20 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I wish to welcome you to this Tribunal where you
22 will soon start giving evidence. Our rules require that before your --
23 you start testifying you make a solemn declaration to the effect that you
24 will be testifying the truth. Madam Usher is going to hand to you the
25 text of the solemn declaration. Please read it out aloud, and that will
1 be your undertaking with us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: ZLATAN CELANOVIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat and make yourself
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey will be putting some questions to you.
10 He will then be followed on cross-examination by the various Defence
12 Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
16 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you tell us your full name,
19 A. Zlatan Celanovic.
20 Q. And where were you born?
21 A. In Bratunac.
22 Q. And where do you -- did you grow up?
23 A. In Bratunac.
24 Q. And you still live in Bratunac?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what is your profession?
2 A. I'm a lawyer.
3 Q. And just briefly, what kind of law do you practice in Bratunac?
4 A. Property law.
5 Q. Okay. I'd like to take you back to the war years, and
6 specifically the year -- just roughly 1995, at first. Can you tell us
7 what your position was in 1995 in the -- in the army?
8 A. I was an officer for legal affairs, religious affairs, and moral
10 Q. And what unit?
11 A. That was with the headquarters, the command of the brigade.
12 Q. And what brigade?
13 A. Bratunac Brigade, light infantry Bratunac Brigade.
14 Q. And who was your immediate superior?
15 A. Major Ratko Jeftic, assistant commander within the same organ.
16 Q. All right. And his commander for July 1995 was who?
17 A. Commander Vidoje Blagojevic.
18 Q. Can you tell us what your duties were in 1995?
19 A. Yes, I can. My duties were, within my regular activities, to
20 institute proceedings against soldiers, conscripts, who violated
21 disciplinary rules. Do you need any elaboration on this?
22 Q. Besides disciplinary rules, did that include criminal -- criminal
24 A. No. No, I was not competent to initiate criminal proceedings.
25 Q. Did you ever investigate or help oversee an investigation of when
1 a -- when a soldier committed some sort of crime, whether it be assault or
3 A. Yes. But that was within the disciplinary action or proceedings,
4 I would take a statement from the offender and then we would decide
5 whether that was a crime or a disciplinary infraction and I had to report
6 to the commander on that.
7 Q. Who would you get your commands from to initiate an interview for
8 an offender or an investigation like this?
9 A. From the commander. Always from him.
10 Q. All right. Now, let's go to July 1995 specifically. And I want
11 to go to the time of about the fall of the Srebrenica enclave. Now, I
12 know you've testified before that you weren't real good with the dates; is
13 that right?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Okay. So I want to -- I'll ask you questions around time --
16 incidents or -- or things that -- that happened that -- that may help you
17 recall roughly what time-frame it is. So my -- the first thing I want to
18 ask you about is let's go to the day -- wasn't -- was there a day when you
19 were at your office and some Muslim prisoners were brought by your office
20 that you did interviews of?
21 A. Yes. That was on the 13th.
22 Q. Okay. And can you tell us where your office was?
23 A. It was in the building where the military police was housed, or
24 rather the military police platoon. That was a building near the
25 headquarters building, but not sharing the same yard.
1 Q. Okay. And that -- that headquarters building, can you just
2 roughly describe it?
3 A. I can. The building of the brigade headquarters was actually --
4 was actually a factory building of Kaolin, and in the premises of that
5 building the headquarters of the brigade, that is to say various organs
6 and the commander, were housed. And that was behind the building where I
7 had my office, in another yard, some 30 to 50 metres away. If you need
8 additional details, I will be happy.
9 Q. That's okay. I think there's some familiarity with that. So tell
10 us about when those prisoners were brought by. Roughly when did that
11 happen on the 13th?
12 A. In the morning hours at around 10.00, 11.00. Around that time.
13 Q. Okay. Prior to those prisoners coming by, had any senior officers
14 spoken to you about any subject related to interviews or prisoners?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And who was that?
17 A. Mr. Ljubisa Beara.
18 Q. And when had Mr. Beara spoken to you about this subject?
19 A. I'm not quite sure. It was either on the 12th in the evening or
20 on Monday in the morning.
21 Q. When you say -- sorry, I think we spoke at the same time by
22 accident. We didn't get your last answer.
23 A. I think that it was either in the evening on the 12th of July or
24 in the morning on the 13th of July. I'm not sure, I can't remember, but
25 we had two meetings in those two days and the first one was either in the
1 evening on the 12th or 13th in the morning, and the second one was on the
2 13th in the evening.
3 Q. Okay. And had you met Mr. Beara prior to the -- the date you had
4 that meeting with him that we're talking about now?
5 A. Earlier, yes. In 1994, in 1993, on various occasions when he came
6 to the headquarters.
7 Q. And can you just -- just roughly tell us when he came to the
8 Bratunac Brigade headquarters, what was he doing, if you know?
9 A. I don't know exactly what he did, but I guess he came to inspect
10 security organs, to see Nikolic or some similar matters. I never
11 discussed the reason of his visit with him. It wasn't appropriate for me
12 to do that.
13 Q. Okay. And when you say Nikolic, do you mean Momir Nikolic, the
14 chief of security and intelligence of the Bratunac Brigade?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And to your knowledge, what was Mr. Beara's rank?
17 A. I'm not sure. He is either a colonel or lieutenant-colonel. I
18 apologise, but I can't remember.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, can I know the rank of the witness at
20 the time?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
22 Q. Witness, when you were the -- you held that position, did you have
23 a rank in 1995?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. So what was -- what was your level in the armed forces?
1 A. I did my professional tasks because I'm qualified professionally,
2 but I hold no rank.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the first sentence
4 the witness said.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. We didn't quite hear the first part of your answer.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, the interpreters couldn't hear the
8 first part of your answer. If you could repeat it, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a rank. I was an
10 ordinary soldier holding no rank. As for the post that I held, I was
11 hired or engaged because I'm a qualified lawyer, and because somebody
12 holding that degree was qualified for that post.
13 JUDGE KWON: I'm a bit confused. One time the witness said he was
14 an officer, and now he says -- he is saying he was an ordinary soldier.
15 Could you clarify with the witness?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. It may be the same word in the
17 language, my colleague advises me, so I apologise.
18 Q. We have a little translation issue, but let me just try to clarify
19 it. Have you ever said you were an officer in the -- in the VRS as in a
20 lieutenant, major, of that rank or higher?
21 A. No. Never. Because I'm not an officer. I was a "referent" which
22 can be translated as a desk officer. This is a post I held.
23 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to Mr. Beara, when you saw him, where
24 was it that you saw him this first time, either the night of the 12th or
25 the morning of the 13th?
1 A. In front of the military police building in the yard.
2 Q. And what if anything did he say to you?
3 A. He asked me how I was, what I was doing, in those days, and I told
4 him the usual tasks, believing that he knew what my usual tasks were.
5 Q. And then what else did he say?
6 A. He said "fine," and then he asked me whether I had any information
7 on the people who had sinned in relation to the Serbian people. Or
8 rather, information on the people who we suspected had torched Serbian
9 villages, killed civilians and referring to the Muslims. And I told him
10 that this was all documented in a book.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the name of the
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Could you tell us the name of the book slowly? We didn't quite
15 hear it all.
16 A. The name of the book is The Chronicle of Our Cemetery. The author
17 is Milivoje Ivanisevic.
18 Q. Did Mr. Beara use the word "sinned," in a -- sinned, religious
19 context, or is that your word?
20 A. It was in the sense of committing crimes against the Serbs in
21 previous years in relation to that day.
22 Q. Okay. When you told him about the book, what else was mentioned,
23 if anything?
24 A. Yes. He said that it would be good for me to ask for IDs from
25 people who were brought to the police building or taken into custody by
1 them and brought there just to check whether anybody mentioned in that
2 book was among them. And if that was the case, to inform one of the
3 security organs that such a person was there, so that action could be
4 taken so that the case could be forwarded to the competent prosecutor.
5 Q. Okay. And at the time he -- he said that, had anybody been
6 brought by your office yet, any Muslims?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. So now let's go back to the -- what you've described as the
9 morning of the 13th. When you say some Muslims were -- were brought by
10 your office, can you tell us about that?
11 A. A group of five or six Muslims arrived in a vehicle escorted by
12 soldiers who were referred to as members of special forces in conversation
13 with the military police. So I assumed that they were members of special
14 forces or special military police forces. They came there and asked about
15 the location of the school building, the elementary school building, so
16 they could take these people there.
17 So the military policemen who were there in front of the building
18 explained to them, gave them directions, pointed. And I approached them,
19 telling them that I would need to ID these people, telling them why I
20 would need to do that, and I told them to wait a little bit before taking
21 them elsewhere, which they accepted.
22 Q. Okay. Can you tell us the military policemen that gave these --
23 these special soldiers or forces that you have described, did you know
24 what unit the military policemen were from?
25 A. No. They were not from the Bratunac Brigade, because they were
1 completely unfamiliar to me.
2 Q. Were they part of the VRS?
3 A. Most likely, yes. They couldn't have appeared there otherwise.
4 Q. Was a prisoner brought to you that you knew?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And who was that?
7 A. Resid Sinanovic, a colleague of mine from Bratunac.
8 Q. Was he brought to you with these other six, I think you said
9 Muslims? Was he brought to you at the same time as those six?
10 A. I'm not sure. There were six or seven of them, roughly. But
11 within five or 10 minutes -- he wasn't brought with them. He came with
12 Captain Mirnikovic [phoen].
13 Q. Could you tell us the name of the officer that Resid Sinanovic
14 came with?
15 A. Captain Momir Nikolic.
16 Q. For the record, we had just an understandable translation glitch
17 on the first name. All right.
18 And was Mr. Beara around at the time that these Muslims were
19 brought to you?
20 A. I will repeat: No.
21 Q. Okay. And what if anything did Momir Nikolic say to you when you
22 brought you Resid Sinanovic?
23 A. He brought him into the office without me seeing that because I
24 was outside. And then he found me in the yard in front of the building
25 and said to me, "I brought in your colleague, Resid Sinanovic, and he is
1 right now in your office sitting there."
2 Should I tell you the rest of what he said to me?
3 Q. Sure.
4 A. And then he said to me that I should check the circumstances
5 because Resid was also mentioned in the book, The Chronicle of Our
6 Cemetery, among other people, as somebody who was suspected of having
7 participated in the attack on the village of Bjelovac. He said we should
8 check the paperwork to see whether there was any statement concerning this
9 and that I should talk to Resid about it to see if that was true or not.
10 Following that he said good-bye to Resid, shook hands with him, went out,
11 and I never saw him again. I'm referring to Nikolic. He said something
12 similar to what Mr. Beara said.
13 Q. Okay. And so what did you do?
14 A. Nothing special. I walked into the office and I started talking
15 to Resid. It was a normal dialogue. I talked to him as one would talk to
16 a colleague. We hadn't seen each other in a while throughout the war.
17 Q. What was -- what was Mr. Sinanovic's profession?
18 A. He was a lawyer.
19 Q. And did you -- did you -- take notes during your -- your talk with
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And can you just -- I'll show you those notes a little
23 later, but can you just briefly tell us what -- what you were talking
25 A. After we greeted each other, as people would, I told him that it
1 was a good thing that he was there, that I see him, that there were some
2 indications to the effect of survivors from Bjelovac after the torching of
3 the village and the killing of many civilians suspected him of having
4 taken part in that attack. Not only he, but his wife as well, which was a
5 bit unusual or rather absurd. Women did not wage war then in that part of
6 the world.
7 He said, "Colleague, never mind, you tell me everything you have
8 to say. My conscience is clear, and I wasn't even close to Bjelovac when
9 all of that happened."
10 I had copies of some unreliable statements. Some elderly women
11 from Bjelovac had said that they had recognised Resid Sinanovic's voice in
12 the woods, and when I asked how far away the woods were from the house,
13 600 to 700 metres, perhaps even up to 1 kilometre, which is impossible to
14 recognise anybody's voice at that distance. You could not recognise your
15 own child's voice let alone -- well, there was very little information to
16 the effect that he had been involved in that. All of this was something
17 that was assumed by the neighbours, the neighbours thought, well -- it's
18 our next door neighbours who must have attacked us, but I did not suspect
19 him of anything and I said that there were no arguments to prove that and
20 I told him not to burden himself with that type of thing. I told him to
21 relax, which he accepted.
22 Q. Did you also ask him some questions sort of where the other
23 Muslims were, where the 28th Division might have been?
24 A. Not in that sense. I did not mention the 28th Division, and I
25 didn't know that there was a 28th division. I asked him whether he knew
1 perhaps where the commanders of units -- well, the commanders who led
2 Naser's units. There were several regional commanders depending on the
3 localities involved, because they had been suspected of war crimes as
4 well. So I cannot remember exactly now. He did mention something, and I
5 wrote things down on a piece of paper. He gave me some information and
6 that's it. I made a note. I said I had to make a note, nevertheless.
7 Although only Nikolic had brought him, he was not with these people.
8 Well, he said what he thought he knew. Possibly he could have mentioned
9 the 28th Division, but now I don't remember that.
10 Q. Okay. And how -- how long, roughly, were you speaking to
11 Mr. Sinanovic?
12 A. Well, roughly about an hour.
13 Q. And the information he provided you, did you have an opinion as to
14 its reliability?
15 A. I had an opinion about that. I did not even ask about moment of
16 units, I just asked about the names of persons who were suspects on the
17 basis of that book. I wasn't interested in what units were involved and
18 nobody had ordered me to do that, and I was not supposed to do that. But
19 he talked spontaneously, so that was the information that was provided.
20 He was brought there to my office after perhaps three or four hours, after
21 having walked to Bratunac, and if there was a unit in some of the
22 Srebrenica villages at the time of the action at Srebrenica, that was not
23 relevant. Everyone was on the move, the Serb army and the Muslim army,
24 and it was a question of minutes. I mean, that's my assumption. I don't
25 know. I was not there on the field. So I did not take that as a piece of
1 information that I would have to report to someone.
2 Q. Okay. We probably need to slow down a little bit so we get the
3 translation right.
4 A. I do apologise.
5 Q. Okay. After speaking to Mr. Sinanovic, did you speak to the --
6 any of these other five, six Muslims that you had said had been brought
7 to -- to your area?
8 A. Yes. I just looked at their IDs. And I put the same question,
9 whether they knew. I mean, I asked every one of them whether they knew
10 roughly where such and such people were. A few names, Rasunovic [phoen],
11 Meholjic, Mandic. I knew them by heart, but I was leafing through the
12 book. So if they knew anything, they spoke up. If not, then they would
13 spontaneously talk about where it was that they went and from what village
14 they set out from and how they reached Bratunac. Obviously they weren't
15 soldiers but civilians, or at least some of them. That's probably the way
16 it was, and I was taking notes about this, too. What they were saying, I
17 thought I should write down on a piece of paper.
18 Q. Okay. And I -- have I showed you the original notes that you have
19 taken, that you took at the time when you were speaking to Mr. Sinanovic
20 and these others?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you confirm that that was your handwriting and those were
23 the notes you were talking about?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And let me skip a little bit now. After those
1 prisoners left your area, did you again see Mr. Beara?
2 A. Yes, on that day in the evening.
3 Q. And where was it you saw Mr. Beara?
4 A. The same place. Right there in front of the building of the
6 Q. What if anything had been going on in Bratunac that -- that
7 afternoon and evening; anything unusual?
8 A. Well, the transport had already arrived of people who had
9 surrendered or were taken prisoner. They were already there in Bratunac,
10 lots of people.
11 Q. And when you say transport, what kind of transport?
12 A. These were freight vehicles and buses. Trucks and buses, that
14 Q. And who in particular were in these buses and trucks?
15 A. Adults. Men. Well, Muslims.
16 Q. And did you see which direction they were coming in to Bratunac
17 town from?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you see where these buses and trucks went in Bratunac town?
20 A. I saw where they were parked.
21 Q. And where was -- just roughly, where was that? We will get to a
22 map a little later, I think.
23 A. The street that goes towards the elementary school Branko
24 Radicevic in Bratunac. The street ends in front of the school, and then
25 it forks off into different directions, so it is a straight street. It
1 starts from the street of Gavrila Princip. That's what they call it
2 nowadays and it goes to the building of the elementary school.
3 Q. Sorry, do you remember the name of the elementary school back
5 A. Now I'm sure that the name of the elementary school is Branko
7 Q. Do you remember what it was back then in 1995?
8 A. I'm not sure. Before two elementary schools were established,
9 there was one that was called Vuk Karadzic. And after two schools were
10 established, one was called Vuk Karadzic, the old name that is, and the
11 other one got the name of Branko Radicevic. Now, that always confused me
12 a bit, where what school was, in terms of their names. That one was near
13 the municipality, Branko Radicevic or Vuk Karadzic, it's near the
14 municipality building, the specific school that I am talking about.
15 Q. Okay. Well, we'll see if we can sort that out a bit later. Now,
16 when you saw Mr. Beara outside, I guess it was near the office that
17 evening, what if anything did he say to you?
18 A. No, I've already said. I mean, I was the one to start the
20 Q. Okay. And what did you say to him?
21 A. Well, I said that only a few people were brought in front of the
22 police building. And that there are no results in terms of looking at the
23 IDs, and then he says, "All right, what else?" And I said that I was
24 worried because I went home around midday to change because it was very
25 hot, and I saw that there were too many people who were prisoners in town,
1 and too few soldiers - I mean Serb soldiers - and that probably the town
2 is imperilled.
3 Q. What was his response to that?
4 A. All right, we'll have a look at that, but I hope that they will
5 make it through the night and we will too, because I guess they're going
6 to Kladanj tomorrow.
7 Q. Okay. So what did you do?
8 A. Nothing special. Quite simply he went out to see all of that. To
9 see what the situation as outside in the street, that street.
10 Q. And did you go with him?
11 A. Excuse me. Yes.
12 Q. And where did you -- where did you go?
13 A. All the way to the school. From the command building, the
14 building of the commander of the brigade, we walked along the street on
15 foot, and he was just looking, he was looking at the vehicles and the
16 guards. He didn't stop by anyone, simply he passed by and looked.
17 Q. And did you see any of these vehicles and trucks with Muslim men
18 in them?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what if anything did he say about them?
21 A. I'm sorry, about them or to them?
22 Q. Well, let's start with --
23 A. I didn't hear your question, or rather I didn't hear the
24 interpreter interpreting your question.
25 Q. Okay. What if anything did he say about them to you?
1 A. Yes, I asked him why these people weren't leaving immediately, why
2 were they standing there, and he aid that the transport had to be
3 reorganised, that there were many people on the vehicles, and that it
4 wasn't safe to transport them that way, and that the vehicles had to be
5 returned. The vehicles that took the women and children, that they would
6 be reorganised and they would go could Kladanj the next morning.
7 Q. He said there were too many people on the vehicles for them to be
8 transported that way?
9 A. Actually, he said that there were too few vehicles in order to
10 transport them.
11 Q. Okay. Did he say anything to any of the Muslims in your
13 A. No, no. He didn't address anyone.
14 Q. And where did you go?
15 A. The school, along the street.
16 Q. Roughly what time of day was it now that you were in the -- in
17 the -- going towards the school?
18 A. Dusk.
19 Q. Okay. And then what happened?
20 A. Nothing. We went back, we came to the school that is, and he went
21 down towards the school, too, 10 or 15 metres, I wasn't with him, to the
22 corner. He said it's not quite safe, but I think there won't be any
23 problems. And then we returned up there. It didn't take very long
24 because practically -- well, yes, at one moment we went to the stadium,
25 too. He looked at the stadium. He looked at what the situation was. He
1 looked from the gate. Whether he talked to someone or not, I could not
2 hear because I stayed behind, but he returned soon.
3 Q. Were you able to look into the stadium yourself?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you see anything -- anybody in the stadium?
6 A. Well, I saw a few vehicles next to the fence before the stadium,
7 and also through the gate of the stadium. I could discern parts of buses
8 and trucks because the fence prevented you from seeing that. So that's
9 what I saw.
10 Q. And how long was Mr. Beara over by the stadium?
11 A. Very briefly. I don't know, he stopped for a bit, a minute or
12 two, I don't know whether he talked to someone or not, and not more than
13 that. And then he came back and then we went down the street to the
15 Q. Why didn't you go over to the stadium with him?
16 A. Well, there were some soldiers in front of the gate. Quite
17 simply, I stopped. I was talking behind him, a metre or two, for as long
18 as he did whatever he wanted to do out there, to have a look, whatever. I
19 didn't really feel like going. I was exhausted that day, so I was
20 avoiding any kind of commotion.
21 Q. Did you see any Muslim men in the stadium?
22 A. I think that I did on the first vehicle. I didn't enter the
23 stadium so I didn't see what was going on in the stadium. Just through
24 the gate of the stadium I saw -- well, it was dusk, I wasn't sure. Now,
25 was it the front part of the truck or the back or front of a bus, but I
1 think I did see that there were people there on one of the vehicles. Now,
2 who these people were, whether they were Muslims, too, or soldiers, I
3 don't know. I'm not sure about that.
4 Q. Okay. And where did you go when you and Mr. Beara left the
5 stadium area?
6 A. Actually, I was supposed to say that earlier on. We stopped at
7 the stadium and then we returned to the school and to the police building,
8 to in front of the police building. We talked slowly; we were on foot.
9 Q. Okay. And when you got back to the police building, what
11 A. Nothing. He went into the yard of the command, and I went to my
12 office to get things in order. It was dirty that day, nothing more than
13 that. As for him, I didn't see him after that.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I had a map of Bratunac to help
16 illustrate the walk. The one I have access to is the one that has the
17 places marked. Given there was a slight confusion about the school, it
18 may be better to give him the unmarked version. That unfortunately is in
19 my office. But if the Defence doesn't object, we can show him the marked
20 version. I mean, he knows Bratunac better than anyone, and it may not be
21 prejudicial, but if there is a concern I can go to my office.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is -- the marked one, does it indicate the name of
23 one or both schools?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So at that point, I suggest that he brings the clean
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Just
5 on line -- or page 21, line 6, I thought the witness said that they walked
6 slowly, and it says they talked slowly. I don't know if it's a big deal.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It will just take a minute or two for us to get
10 the map.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it's better we use the clean one, even
12 though the witness familiar with Bratunac town. Unless there is the okay
13 from the Defence teams. In which case we can use the one that he has now.
14 MR. JOSSE: Let's not, I'm afraid.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's bring the clean one. In the meantime, if
16 you can pass on to some other question, perhaps we'll do that.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Let's go back now to the time that you are in front of your office
19 with the -- the Muslims. You have told us you interviewed Resid
20 Sinanovic, I think you said in your office. Is that right?
21 A. I only talked to him in the office. With the others outside, they
22 didn't enter.
23 Q. Okay. And where were the others when you spoke to them?
24 A. The first one or two people while they were on the vehicle they
25 got off to get some water, and outside in the shade underneath the window
1 there were a few chairs and tree stumps and I was sitting there and taking
2 notes on my knees. Handwritten notes.
3 Q. Okay. And when you finished, do you know where Resid Sinanovic
4 and these other Muslims were taken?
5 A. First they were taken -- I mean these people who were together in
6 the group, they were taken to the school.
7 Q. And how do you know that?
8 A. Because the guys who were the escorts asked where the school was,
9 so they could take them there, and they returned with the vehicle five or
10 six minutes later. They returned to the building, in front of the
11 building. There were fewer of them then; two or three of these escorts,
12 these guys who were escorting them. After that ...
13 Q. Okay. Now, these -- these people that -- that took the Muslims to
14 the school, how did they describe themselves in particular?
15 A. As I started talking to these persons who were brought in, I asked
16 for their IDs to see who they were and I asked for any ID. They were
17 talking to a few of these military policemen from the platoon of the
18 military police from Bratunac, and sort of we were specials, it was a sort
19 of jargon, so I assumed that they were members of a special military unit
20 or a special police. I don't know. At any rate, they were dressed the
21 same way; new overalls. And one could see that perhaps they belonged to
22 an elite unit, judging by their uniforms because our people were poorly
23 dressed. It was along those lines. It wasn't that any one of them told
24 me that they were members of this or that unit. I cannot claim that.
25 Q. Okay. Well, let me -- let me take you to see if this will help to
1 refresh your recollection. Do you remember giving a statement on the 28th
2 of August, 2003, to the Republika Srpska MUP at the Bratunac police
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Let me read this to you to see if this is correct. I mean,
6 earlier I -- you had a chance to read this -- this police statement,
7 didn't you, in my office?
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. And did you tell me if it was correct or not?
10 A. Well, there are two statements. I don't know which one you
12 Q. Okay. Well, this is the longest one with the most detail. It is
13 the 28th of August. Let me just read you the short section to see if this
14 is -- if this is right or if you want to clarify anything.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Page?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's page 5 in the -- in the English, in the
17 middle of the first paragraph, and it's page -- ERN Y0033873, in the B/C/S
18 original, near the bottom of the first paragraph.
19 Q. It says, I believe, now referring to the -- to the Muslims, "We
20 talked for about two hours and then a police patrol came to my office and
21 said that Resid had spent too much time with me and that they were
22 supposed to escort him to the elementary school for provisional
23 accommodation. Since the policemen had represented themselves as special
24 police, there could be no arguing with them because they were arrogant
25 fellows 'specials,' and it was better not to get on their wrong side."
1 Now, this -- is that correct?
2 A. That's correct. Correct. That is correct.
3 Q. So these guys called themselves special police?
4 A. They called themselves "the specials." Not the special police.
5 So I assume they were either the special police or a special platoon of
6 the military, of the army. I wasn't sure.
7 Q. You know what the RS Special Police Unit was at the time, don't
9 A. I know what the unit of the military police looked like. As for
10 the special police, I didn't look at the insignia.
11 Q. Okay. Can you describe the uniform that these police, these
12 specials, let's call them the specials, as you have confirmed. What --
13 can you describe their uniforms a little better?
14 A. Overalls. Military overalls. They were camouflage overalls, and
15 one could see that the fabric was new, that overalls were new, one could
16 see very well. The belts that they had were not plain leather ones, no.
17 They were the modern type ones and very few of our people had that. Our
18 people had worn-out uniforms three years old, tops and trousers. That's
19 what our people wore.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you. I now have that -- that map, and I don't know
21 what number we want to give it, but we'll give it P2 -- if we could, for
22 now I'm told, call it P2103, at page 272, that's Mr. Ruez's marked map.
23 This will get a new number after he marks it up. And if you could give
24 him that --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Sure, Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- that pen and that map, and if we could gear up
2 the ELMO.
3 Q. Mr. Celanovic, you know, take your time. I know you saw this map
4 in my office and -- but take your time to orient yourself with it. And
5 when you do the first thing I want you to do is circle the buildings of
6 the Bratunac Brigade headquarters. But take time to orient it. It's
7 obviously shot at sort of an angle that can be tricky. You can turn it
8 any way that makes sense to you.
9 A. May I use the pencil to draw on it or am I supposed only to point
10 out without writing anything?
11 Q. Okay. Let's work together on this, if you --
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear what the witness said.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this -- is this suitable? This
15 is the building, the building of the Kaolin factory. This is this
16 building here. I'm circling it right now.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Take the pen -- we're going to write on it. I don't want the
19 whole factory, but can you circle the offices of the headquarters?
20 A. Here. I have to do it with my left hand. I'm left handed. I
21 don't know if I should turn it around.
22 Q. Definitely use your writing hand.
23 A. This is the front part of the building. And this is where
24 premises were, official premises. The cafeteria was on the ground floor
25 for the military, and this is where the offices of the command of the
1 brigade were located, in this part here.
2 Q. Okay. Is that -- is that pen working?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It is, okay. Sorry. It's just the ELMO. All right. You've
5 drawn I guess a big oval around the office building. Can you put a 1, a
6 clear 1 next to that, so we'll know what that is? You may need to mark
7 hard so it comes through to us.
8 A. All right. Number 1.
9 Q. Thank you. Now can you circle the place where your office was,
10 what is known I believe as the military police building. And we can stay
11 right there, ELMO people.
12 A. This building here. This one here. This is where the reception
13 desk is, and then the military police building is. And then my office was
14 somewhere here.
15 Q. All right. Well, you've marked your office, I guess, with
16 something that looked like a 1, unfortunately. But let's ignore that and
17 put a 2 on the roof of the military police building, that big rectangle
18 you drew.
19 A. [Marks].
20 Q. Now, can you put a B1 where the first place where you saw Mr.
21 Beara was, either on the night of the 12th or the morning of the 13th?
22 A. [Marks].
23 Q. Okay. Now, where was he when you met him that second time and
24 took your walk into town? Just tell us where he was in relation to B1.
25 A. Closer to the reception desk or the gatehouse. Somewhere here.
1 Q. Okay. Put B2 next to that little dot, will you?
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. Now, if you could just visualise where you walked and before
4 drawing, let's do it like a carpenter, let's look first and measure
5 second. So can you just take your pen without writing it and just give us
6 an outline of your walk and then we will mark it after that. Just go
7 slowly from the headquarters to where you went into town and we'll mark it
9 A. We started out from here, we took this street, and then went down
10 this street called Gavrila Principa and turned left and we took this
11 street and then we turned towards the stadium. I remained there and he
12 went to the gate of went to the gate of the stadium and then came back and
13 went to the school. This is the school.
14 Q. Okay. Can you put a big circle around the school you're talking
15 about, and just -- just put an S for "skola." Now, how do you know that
16 school? What name do you know it by now? I know the name has changed a
17 few times.
18 A. Called Branko Radicevic.
19 Q. Okay. Can you now just take a moment and draw in with your green
20 pen that -- that route you just told us about? Just take your time and
21 get it right.
22 A. [Marks] Can you see this?
23 Q. More or less. Okay. Now, on the way -- that line you've just
24 drawn, I see that you go to the soccer field and then you go back and then
25 down to the school. On your way back do you do the same route?
1 A. Same road except we didn't go to the playground.
2 Q. Or the -- the --
3 A. No, no, we didn't go again to the playground; there was no need
4 for that.
5 Q. When you say playground, you mean football pitch?
6 A. Stadium. I mean the stadium.
7 Q. Everyone in Bratunac knows it as the stadium?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Can you roughly as you remember, put Xs where you remember seeing
10 vehicles, buses and trucks that had Muslims in them? If you can.
11 A. The vehicles were parked with an interval of two to three metres.
12 In -- in the street. So there was a column of vehicles with two to three
13 metres between them. They filled up the street. So every two or three
14 metres there would be a parked vehicle and then again two or three metres
15 and then another parked vehicle, all the way up to the end of the street
16 and the street ended in the front of the school, right here.
17 Q. Okay. Could you just put Xs to just roughly reflect that. It
18 doesn't need to be the same number of vehicles as Xs, but Xs to give us an
19 idea of where these vehicles were parked.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I was thinking also of using another there are,
21 because at least from what I can see on -- on the monitor, I can barely
22 decipher what -- of course if I look at the -- probably I will see it
23 better, but ...
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we had that same problem with the colour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, there were instances where the
1 technicians actually did something and we could see the colour.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we blow it up a little bit? I think if we
3 blow up to just have the route, we can see it. No, I mean down. Yeah,
4 there we go. Okay. Right there, that's fine.
5 Q. Can you finish your Xs and ...
6 Is that it? That's about the area where you saw the buses and
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember roughly how many different buses and trucks you
10 saw that had Muslims in them?
11 A. There could have been some 20 or so. I didn't count them, and I
12 would hesitate to give you the exact figure, but they almost filled up the
13 whole street. I don't know exactly how many buses can fit, but not --
14 maybe not the whole street, but from the bakery, there is a bakery here,
15 all the way up to the school. This is the bakery. This is where the
16 bakery is. Where the X is on the corner, this is where the bakery is, and
17 then down. You said the street. Do you need to -- do you need for me to
18 mark other locations with an X?
19 Q. Is there any other locations where you saw numerous vehicles? Big
20 vehicles with Muslims in them?
21 A. As I said earlier, that in front of the stadium gate I saw two or
22 three vehicles.
23 Q. Okay. Why don't you put two or three Xs there, then.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. And you mentioned seeing something inside the stadium. How many
1 vehicles did you see inside the stadium?
2 A. I didn't see any vehicle in its entirety. I saw a portion of one
3 vehicle, the front of it. I saw only half a metre of the front of that
4 vehicle. I don't know whether that was a bus or a truck. It was dusk,
5 and I stood by the stands at the market.
6 Q. Why don't you put a 0 where you saw part of that vehicle, if you
8 A. Here. [Marks].
9 Q. Okay. Could you tell whether there were any Muslim men inside the
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What could you see?
13 A. I could see people on the windows. I'm now referring to the time
14 when I saw them during the day.
15 Q. Okay. I'm just asking you about that evening walk. What could
16 you see during the evening walk? Did you see any Muslims at that school
17 during your evening walk with Mr. Beara?
18 A. I saw silhouettes, yes. They were in the classrooms on the
20 Q. Okay. And could you tell -- did you -- what level of the
21 classroom? I guess there is ground, at least a ground. I mean, how
22 many -- how many levels does that school have?
23 A. One or two storeys. I'm not sure exactly but there was on the
24 upper storey. I don't know exactly how many storeys the building has, I
25 think two, but I'm not sure.
1 Q. Did you see Mr. Popovic around Bratunac on -- on that day that you
2 saw Mr. Beara?
3 A. I didn't see Mr. Popovic on that day.
4 Q. Did you see him in Bratunac, do you remember seeing him at all
5 during this time?
6 A. I think I saw him one evening, either on the 10th or 11th in front
7 of the brigade headquarters building.
8 Q. All right.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Could he be more specific as to which Popovic he's
10 referring to, please?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
12 Q. When you say -- when I say -- when we say Popovic, can you tell us
13 his -- who this person is?
14 A. Well, Popovic. The security officer of the corps.
15 Q. Which corps?
16 A. The Drina Corps.
17 Q. Now, you say you think you saw him.
18 A. Well, I know what he looks like. I think I saw him and Mr. Beara
19 one evening, but Mr. Beara didn't talk to me on that occasion. He didn't
20 even see him nor did I approach him or anything. I just saw him. I saw a
21 group of officers and I recognised him. Because he would come to see
22 Nikolic frequently, and I could physically identify him easily.
23 Q. So when you say "him" you mean Popovic the --
24 A. I'm referring to Mr. Popovic.
25 Q. Now, in this group of people, who did you see?
1 A. I just recognised Mr. Beara and Mr. Popovic. There were another
2 two or three men, but that was after I had finished my dinner and gone
3 back, and then I stood with the guards, not with the guards, but people
4 manning the reception desk or the gatehouse, and they said the officers
5 arrived, and I paid attention to them. I looked at them more carefully,
6 and I recognised the two of them, and then there were two or three
7 officers with them. I guess they were officers, but I'm not fully sure
8 about that. I simply didn't see them that clearly, nor did I know them
9 from before.
10 Q. All right. I just -- the last thing I want to do is show you
11 these -- your -- your handwritten notes, and I think we can do that with
12 the -- with the screen and the copies. If we could just go on e-court
13 first to number 247. If we could blow that up briefly. Okay.
14 Are these the notes regarding a person -- an interview of -- named
15 Husic Mujo?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let's go to the -- the next one, which is number 248. And if I
18 could bring up the English as well as the B/C/S on this. We need to show
19 the witness the B/C/S. Okay.
20 Are these your notes of the interview with Resid Sinanovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And if you could blow up the English bit -- a bit more so I
23 can look at in the middle part of the notes.
24 It looks like Mr. Sinanovic told you that -- it says, "In the
25 first phase about 6.000 to 7.000 people crossed. Soldiers had priority.
1 The majority of the soldiers crossed in the first wave." And then it
2 says in parentheses, "(the plan to go from Pobudje towards Tuzla.)" And
3 then, "This morning about 1.000 to 1500 armed men remained. About 6.000
4 to 7.000 remained in the spot where the shells landed." And then there is
5 a little description.
6 So when it says, "This morning about 1.000 to 1500 remained," do
7 you know what day that was when he says, "This morning"?
8 A. I apologise, but I hear -- I see here only two sentences of what
9 you read out. Could you please scroll up with -- scroll down rather, with
10 my text so that I can follow it? May I read this, please?
11 Q. Yes, I apologise. Take your time and take a look at that. And we
12 can blow that up for him and kick off the English.
13 A. Yeah, this is good. Yes, yes, this is good. Can you scroll down
14 a bit more? Thank you. Because I'm missing the bottom portion. All
16 Now, would you repeat the question, please?
17 Q. There is a reference, when it says, "This morning about 1.000 to
18 1500 armed men remained," now you are clearly interviewing him on the
19 13th. Do you know when you wrote in "this morning," what you were
20 referring to, what day?
21 A. I think that it was on the 13th, because at the beginning of the
22 text it says, "I started out this morning." Could I see the beginning of
23 the text, please? Could we go back to the beginning? Because that was
24 the most accurate information. I wrote down what he said. Yes, this is
1 He says, "This morning I reported to the camp near Pobudje," which
2 means that it was that morning on the 13th because this is how he started
3 his story.
4 Q. Okay. And Mr. Celanovic, I tell you I don't see any questions in
5 your notes about the possibility of him being a war criminal, so you
6 didn't write any notes about that part of your conversation?
7 A. No. It was a conversation, a verbal exchange. Because even
8 before he was brought, there was actually no grounds for suspecting him in
9 relation to anything. I just told him that I needed to speak to him,
10 because he had heard what Captain Nikolic said, and I had to talk to him.
11 There was nothing to write down, just the first name and the last name. I
12 didn't know the other people, so I had to get more information from them,
13 more personal particulars. And I asked him about other people. You can
14 see based on the names that all of these people were mentioned, and you
15 can see what kind of questions I put to him. Bekic, Golic, Tihic.
16 Q. Okay. Understood. Let's go to the next one, which is number 249?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
18 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krgovic said that the last bit of the witness
19 gave, an important bit where he said the word "innocent," was missed out.
20 Perhaps he could be asked if he mentioned the word "innocent" and in what
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, you've heard Mr. Josse. Did you make
23 use -- did you use the word "innocent"? And if you did, in what context
24 did you use it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to which name?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that clear?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean Sinanovic or the other
3 people mentioned?
4 MR. JOSSE: Sinanovic, apparently.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Sinanovic, yes. It is my
6 position now that he was a decent and honest man. And following
7 everything that happened nothing surfaced to indicate that he wronged
8 anyone, committed a war crime against Serb civilians, soldiers or
9 anything. He did not harm the Serbs in any way. This is still my opinion
10 to this day. And that's how it was.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Okay. Just to -- or almost -- we're almost done, really. Let's
13 go to the next one which I think I already said, 249. And if -- take a
14 look. Does this indicate that you spoke briefly to Nasif Avdic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Munib Dedic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And Aziz Husic? I think we need to ...
19 A. All right.
20 Q. Okay. And I think if we can go to the last one of these. It says
21 down at the bottom, "R.Z." for Hajrudin Begzadic. It says he was
22 registered with a unit but did not take an active part. So what does that
23 mean, if you remember.
24 A. Hajrudin, I didn't see him on that day, but Husic claimed
25 concerning Begzadic that he had been a member of a unit of Alija,
1 nicknamed Kurta, and gave information about him because given that Aziz
2 was from Brezovica, and this person, Hajrudin Izazic [phoen] from
3 Brezovica was mentioned in the book as a person who was involved. So he
4 provided information about where he was in the unit and where he was
5 located. Nothing more. I made this note, and that has nothing to do with
6 it. So just to -- just to reiterate, this person was not with me. And
7 this is what Husic told us.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have two more documents.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead and then we will have the break.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to 250, this should be the last note.
11 It will come up on this -- on this system.
12 Q. Does this indicate that you interviewed Hasib Ibisevic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And just going briefly back to Resid Sinanovic, were you at some
15 point shown a document indicating that he was -- he was alive on 15 July
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. And if we could bring that up and that -- and should
19 have a B/C/S version. The number is 2407, that's the English version. If
20 we could bring them both up. But I think we can make this shorter by --
21 Do you remember being shown some medical documents by a lawyer
22 named Veselin Londrovic who was representing Momir Nikolic at -- at the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And did he -- did he show you this -- this letter that
1 we see the B/C/S version of?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And just for the Court, you can see that this is a --
4 a reference from a -- a health centre sending a medical document from the
5 hospital at Banja Koviljaca. Do you know where Banja Koviljaca is?
6 A. Of course.
7 Q. Where is that?
8 A. It's a town on the Drina River in the Republic of Serbia.
9 Q. Okay. So if we could now go to -- let's go to the actual document
10 itself, which is three pages down in this document. Page 3 in English,
11 and page 3 in B/C/S. Okay. If we could blow that up a little bit to
12 catch the 15 July segment of the English and the B/C/S which we see
13 towards the bottom of the page.
14 Okay. Now, in the English side the people that were trying to
15 translate this were not able to being make out anything about "Resid"
16 about three lines below where it says 15 July. Can you check out the
17 B/C/S version about three lines down, does it say "Resid" there?
18 A. Yes. Resid Sinanovic, both first and last name, written in the
19 Cyrillic script.
20 Q. And what is you are understanding, just -- of what this document
22 A. It constitutes proof that Resid Sinanovic has been registered or
23 entered in this document. If it's a hospital document, then that he was
24 in the hospital. I looked at this document before, and I know that this
25 is part of the medical centre's protocol records in Banja Koviljaca,
1 meaning that he was receiving treatment or was there for treatment that
2 day, since he's been registered in this particular form.
3 Q. Okay. And where -- where is Banja Koviljaca?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already told us, I think.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Banja Koviljaca, to be more
6 specific, is a town across from the town of Bijeljina. It is further away
7 from Zvornik. It's not precisely opposite from Bijeljina, but it is more
8 or less on the other side of the river Drina in the Republic of Serbia.
9 It is 40 or 50 kilometres from Zvornik, down river from the Drina on the
10 right bank of the river Drina in Serbia.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. The letter from -- the letter from a doctor says from Loznica, the
13 health centre from Loznica. Do you know whether this medical record is
14 coming from a health centre in Loznica or Banja Koviljaca?
15 A. The medical centre has a business, an organisational seat in
16 Loznica. The health centre, or whatever it's called, in Banja Koviljaca
17 is territorially part of that centre. Legally it's part of the Milenko
18 Marin centre from Loznica, even though it is not physically in the same
19 place. It is as if a company had a branch in another place. There is for
20 example one in Amsterdam and one in The Hague. I mean, it's the same way.
21 So part of the medical centre in Loznica, is this particular unit in
22 Banja Koviljaca.
23 Q. What town is across the river from Loznica in Republika Srpska?
24 A. I think that Bijeljina is the closest.
25 Q. How about Kozluk?
1 A. Kozluk, well, Kozluk, I even forgot that it was a town. It's a
2 very small place. Kozluk is a settlement.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I don't have any further questions.
4 Thank you for your patience.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Witness, we will have a 25-minute
6 break starting from now. Thank you.
7 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I understand you're finished, but I see you
10 standing up again, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am reminded the witness needs to sign and date
12 the map.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see him do that.
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
15 [Interpretation] What was the date?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Today is the 31st of January. Okay.
17 Mr. Zivanovic will go first.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.
21 A. Good day.
22 Q. You provided a statement before, actually you gave a number of
23 statements at the police station in Bratunac, and to the Tribunal
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'm going to read just one sentence from that statement that you
2 provided at the Bratunac police station, and then after that I'm going to
3 put a question to you.
4 The sentence reads, "I know from speaking with military policemen
5 of the Bratunac Brigade that they participated as an escort to the convoy
6 or convoys and that the hand-over of the vehicles with the prisoners was
7 carried out at the border between the Bratunac and Zvornik Brigade's areas
8 of responsibility."
9 My question is, on that occasion did they tell you or mention that
10 this was done at a place called Vidikovac?
11 A. No. Only the area the responsibility was mentioned.
12 Q. They didn't mention any location at all?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can you please tell me if -- or until when did you stay in the
15 army of Republika Srpska?
16 A. I think until the 14th of December, 1995. Just before the signing
17 of the Dayton Accords, something like that.
18 Q. Can you just tell me one more thing. I saw from your previous
19 statements that amongst other things as part of your duties you compiled
20 data on attacks on the Serbian villages around Bratunac and Srebrenica; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you please tell me if you know what happened after that?
24 With that material that you had compiled with the documents, the material,
25 the statements and all of that, did that stay at the Bratunac Brigade or
2 A. I don't know if it stayed or a part of it stayed. I have to give
3 you a broader answer, if you permit me. I compiled the material upon
4 orders of the commander in cooperation with the representatives of the
5 commission for the investigation of war crimes of Republika Srpska and
6 Yugoslavia, so they were sent to me by the commander as a person who was
7 skilled in compiling data and getting statements and so on. So I was
8 authorised by the commander to take statements from civilians.
9 Whatever I compiled I would hand over to the representatives of
10 those two commissions. They actually took most of the statements to the
11 centre for the investigation of war crimes in Yugoslavia. Maybe I'm not
12 naming the -- the commission properly. Luka [phoen] Ivanisevic was the
13 authorised person. I remember quite well he was authorised by Biljana
14 Plavsic to come to the command of the brigade, and that he was authorised
15 to investigate into Republika Srpska. That's how it was.
16 Q. If you can remember, can you tell me if there were many cases
17 reported of attacks on Serbian villages around Bratunac and Srebrenica?
18 A. Could your question be a little more specific, please?
19 Q. In the course of your work on this matter that we just talked
20 about, did you have information from people that you took the various
21 statements from about how many attacks there were on Serbian villages?
22 Did this occur once, several times, were there attacks on one village or
23 on several villages? This is my question.
24 A. Yes, that's clear. There were I a tacks on all Serbian villages
25 in the area of the Bratunac municipality.
1 Q. What does that mean? How many of them are there?
2 A. I don't know how many of them there are, 50, 60. Well, not all.
3 The villages that were below Bratunac, only Polje [phoen] and Slapasnica
4 were not attacked. All the other villages were attacked, Kravica,
5 Jezestica, Bijelovac, and so on. Each village as attacked by the army.
6 Q. Can you tell me if you found out what the consequences of these
7 attacks were?
8 A. Absolutely. There were many soldiers and civilians killed in each
9 attack and property was destroyed. There was looting and burning of Serb
11 Q. When you say soldiers and civilians, do you mean Serb soldiers and
13 A. Yes, I'm thinking of Serb soldiers and civilians.
14 Q. And on that occasion did you find out who carried out the attacks
15 where the attackers were coming from, which direction were they coming
16 from, those who attacked the villages?
17 A. I did have some information because the survivors could always
18 identify someone from the other side. There was fighting, they would see
19 someone. Mostly these are people from two towns who knew each other from
20 before the war. They would recognise someone and were able to indicate by
21 first and last name who the persons were whom they recognised who were in
22 the attack. That caused these consequences.
23 Q. And did they indicate from which direction --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... you are moving
25 too fast, both of you. Please allow a short pause between question and
1 answer. All right?
2 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Just a couple more questions. Could you please tell me if you
5 had information as to the direction from which those attackers had come
7 A. I did have information.
8 Q. And where did they come from?
9 A. Well, it's hard to answer. Each village was defended to a certain
10 degree, so they came from the other side of the line from the direction of
11 Srebrenica, from the Srebrenica villages, there was some kind of line
12 between Bratunac and Srebrenica.
13 Q. And do you know how long these attacks lasted? I don't mean in
14 the sense of how long they lasted in hours and minutes, but I mean the
15 length, the period over which the attacks happened, was it months, weeks,
17 A. The most intense attacks were during 1992. But they continued
18 later. Practically until the end of the war there were incursions into
19 Serbian villages and so on.
20 Q. Just one more question. Could you please tell me if you received
21 information after the attacks about where the attackers withdrew, which
22 direction did they withdraw towards?
23 A. Towards Srebrenica, the town of Srebrenica.
24 Q. And this was during the period that Srebrenica was a protected
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 I have Ms. Nikolic is going next? I have this order indicated to
6 me. First Mr. Zivanovic, second Ms. Nikolic, third the Borovcanin
7 Defence, fifth Madam Fauveau, sixth is -- fifth is the Gvero Defence, next
8 is Mr. Haynes or Mr. Sarapa, and last is the Beara team. This is the
9 indication that I have. If it's not correct, you can please feel free to
10 make whatever adjustments you wish.
11 Yes, Ms. Nikolic, go ahead.
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will not
13 have any questions for this witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you very much.
15 So Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. I would just like to see 6D17 on the e-court system, and while I'm
21 putting the questions, if possible, I would like to also have the English
22 version, page 3, paragraph 3. And the B/C/S version would be page 3,
23 paragraph 6.
24 While we're waiting, Mr. Celanovic, I wanted to ask you the
25 following: You recall on the 28th of August, 2003 you gave a statement at
1 the premises of the Bratunac police station to the public security centre
2 in Bijeljina. Was that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Amongst other things I'm going to read a passage to you from that
5 statement and I would just like you to confirm it. In the B/C/S version
6 it's in the middle of this document, which is on the right. And it
7 says, "In the morning on the 12th of July."
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the English
9 version it's page 3, paragraph 1. Or actually, the third paragraph in the
10 middle of it. It says, "In the morning on the 12th of July."
11 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Celanovic?
12 A. Yes, I see that.
13 Q. It says that on the 12th of July, together with Momir Nikolic you
14 went to the Zuti Most check-point where there was a telephone line with
15 the UNPROFOR base outside Potocari, and that on that occasion Nikolic
16 spoke with the members of the Dutch battalion from that check-point. Do
17 you see that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Can you please clarify the following: On the 12th of July when
20 you got there what time of the day was it?
21 A. When I got there?
22 Q. Yes. Together with Mr. Nikolic.
23 A. In the morning. I really don't know what time it was.
24 Q. And would you agree with me that the check-point still existed
25 then and that members of the Dutch battalion were still there at Zuti
2 A. Well, I cannot agree with that. It was not like that. The
3 check-point did exist. That was the check-point where the convoys were
4 inspected. The convoys of humanitarian aid that were going for -- to
5 Srebrenica. That's where they were inspected. But there was a direct
6 line to the UNPROFOR base that was farther away. That was not the
7 UNPROFOR check-point; it was a check-point of the military police. And
8 then further away, two, three or 500 metres away was the UNPROFOR
9 check-point. That's where the UNPROFOR was. He spoke with someone.
10 Q. Would we agree that the check-point that you are talking about is
11 the check-point called, "the check-point at Jovo's"? Colloquially they
12 called it that after the man who worked there.
13 A. I didn't hear that, but I know that the check-point where the
14 humanitarian aid convoys were checked was a place where Professor Jovo
15 worked. I mean I -- I can't remember his last name, but it's possible
16 that that's the same one.
17 Q. And you are sure that that was when the UN or the UNPROFOR
18 check-point was contacted?
19 A. He said that he wanted to talk to them. I stayed outside of the
20 container, he went inside, and carried out the conversation. He said he
21 wanted to talk to them. I didn't hear the conversation.
22 Q. And from the place where you were, were you able to see the
23 existence of the check-point at that point in time?
24 A. Yes. There was some kind of fortification, there were a lot of
25 sandbags piled up around the building where they were. And you could see
1 behind the bend, around the bend, there was some kind of barrier, a purely
2 military barrier. Bags with two or three rifle nests and a couple of
4 Q. Thank you. The next thing I would like to ask you, and I would
5 just like to stay with the same document, but just move to page 4 of the
6 English version, paragraph 2. And page 4 of the B/C/S version. Thank
8 Mr. Celanovic, today the Prosecutor asked you to describe the
9 people you described as specials who came with five or six people of
10 Muslim ethnicity. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the statement that you gave you said, "amongst other things,
13 that these were members of -- of a unit unknown to me, and I think that
14 they were members of a special unit, judging by their weapons and
15 equipment and they all wore black fatigues and had automatic weapons." Do
16 you see that?
17 A. I don't see it here.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: The -- the question implies that that is the same
20 unit that I was talking about, and -- and actually that does not appear
21 from this statement to be the case from his statement. That can be
22 cleared up, but I don't think we should have an assumption unless it is a
23 true fact.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness says that he doesn't see it there in any
25 case. Perhaps now that he has heard your remarks if you wish to add
1 anything, Witness, then please feel free to go ahead. Otherwise, we move
2 to the next question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are discussing the uniforms,
4 most of them had black overalls. Or maybe dark blue. It was a dark
5 colour. And then there were a couple of them with camouflage uniforms, to
6 be more specific. I mean when I say camouflage, I mean multi-coloured
7 ones, if that's what you're referring to.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. That's all I wanted to ask you about, members of special forces,
10 and I won't have any more questions about them. Now the next topic.
11 Mr. Celanovic, the next matter that I want to turn attention to is
12 the moment when Momir Nikolic arrived with Resid Sinanovic, and when you
13 talked to Resid. Will you please tell us, did any of them tell you where
14 they had come from.
15 A. No. Later on Resid told me that Momir Nikolic got him somewhere
16 near Kravica, I'm not exactly sure where, that he brought him from there
17 in his own vehicle, but Momir told me nothing.
18 Q. Did Resid tell you whether he had surrendered or was captured?
19 A. I think this is what he told me, that he reported to a check-point
20 in Pobudje or in another place. These are the villages in the Kravica
21 area, and that's what he said, that he reported to that check-point.
22 That's what he said, which I think implies that he surrendered there.
23 Q. Did he mention Konjevic Polje on that occasion?
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. Could we now see Defence exhibit 4D14, please.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, this is
2 4D16 for the sake of the transcript. This is the plea agreement and
3 factual agreement or agreement on the facts provided by Momir Nikolic that
4 we had opportunity to see here. Let me just give you the reference,
5 namely we need to see page 5 of the English version, paragraph 1. And in
6 the B/C/S version it's page 5, paragraph 2. Thank you. I think that's
7 what we wanted to see.
8 Now, Your Honours, and Mr. Celanovic, would you please look at the
9 last sentence of the first passage, first paragraph in the English
10 version, where Momir Nikolic says, Mr. Celanovic, that upon fetching Resid
11 Sinanovic from Konjevic Polje, on his way towards Bratunac he reached the
12 Bratunac brigade and handed over Sinanovic to the military police at the
13 Bratunac Brigade headquarters specifically to a legal officer Zlatan
15 Q. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. My question is based on what you know, is it true what Momir
18 Nikolic said?
19 A. Well, he didn't hand him over to me. He brought him to the
20 office. I wasn't duty-bound to take over anyone. He simply brought him
21 into the office and left him there. He didn't hand him over to me. He
22 just left him there. I don't know how people interpret this, but it
23 wasn't my duty to take over people. But what he said here is true.
24 Namely, he did bring him to my office.
25 Q. Can you then confirm and tell us that it was possible that Momir
1 Nikolic took over Resid Sinanovic in Konjevic Polje?
2 A. I can't confirm that. You mean that Momir Nikolic took him over
3 in Konjevic Polje? I don't know. I don't know about that. He brought
4 him to Bratunac to my office.
5 Q. Let's try to get to the bottom of this. Can we see the previous
6 page, page 4, please? Same text in both versions. Last paragraph,
7 please. Would you please look at it?
8 My question is, Mr. Celanovic, do you believe it possible, do you
9 believe it was possible that what Momir Nikolic said was true? Namely
10 that he, Momir Nikolic, took over Resid Sinanovic in Konjevic Polje?
11 A. Yes, it's possible. If that's what he says, that he took him over
12 there, then --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. Anything
15 is possible. That question, it really is asking this witness to
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness has already said, stated that he
18 don't know what happened. So.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will conclude now,
20 with the following question.
21 Q. Mr. Celanovic, you told us about the people you saw during those
22 days in Bratunac. My question is, did you see Ljubomir Borovcanin?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know Ljubomir Borovcanin from before?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. Did you have professional cooperation, did you have any social
2 contacts with him before the 1995 events?
3 A. Yes. We had social contacts, we knew each other, we had normal
5 Q. Based on your contacts and your knowledge of Ljubomir Borovcanin,
6 can you share with us your impression of that man?
7 A. Based on my contacts with him, my impression of him was that he
8 was a normal, reasonable, intelligent, good man. He liked to socialise,
9 liked to joke. He appeared as a normal, decent, good man.
10 Q. During those war years did you hear anything negative about his
11 conduct towards other ethnicities or any crimes whatsoever?
12 A. No.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Thank you, Mr. Celanovic.
15 We have no further questions.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I have on my list Madam Fauveau.
17 Go ahead, Madam Fauveau.
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you were talking about Muslims you had seen
20 in the trucks, in a bus, and in a school in Bratunac. Is it right to say
21 that you did not see that any of these people were killed in Bratunac?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And is it right to say that before you came to testify here in the
24 Blagojevic case in 2004 you had never heard that one single man, that
25 those people were not killed in Bratunac?
1 A. Later on I heard. It's a difficult question. I can't answer it
2 just like that. You have to be more specific which period of time.
3 People were killed during what period of time.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau, both Judge Kwon and Judge Prost
5 and myself were at the same time independently gazing at the question
6 because obviously there was something wrong with it. Perhaps you can
7 rephrase your question, taking also into consideration what the witness
8 has just stated.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir before coming to testify in this case you testified in the
11 Blagojevic case; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this was in the month of May, 2004, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So on the 19th of May, 2004, page 9566, the Prosecutor asked you
16 the following question, I quote: "[In English] Did you hear anything
17 either that evening or the next morning about bodies, 50 bodies of Muslims
18 being found at that Vuk Karadzic school or in one of the buildings right
19 behind it?"
20 [Interpretation] And you have answered to that question by
21 saying: "[In English] I didn't hear anything about that. I hear it for
22 the first time that bodies were found either in the school or around the
24 [Interpretation] My question is as follows: Is it right to say
25 that you heard for the first time that some bodies were found at the Vuk
1 Karadzic school or around that school, the first time you heard about it
2 was in the month of May, 2004?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And before that date you had never heard about any bodies in
5 Bratunac or around Bratunac on the 12th and 13th of July; is that right?
6 My question was only concerning Bratunac, the streets of Bratunac and
7 the school of Bratunac. I believe that there is a mistake in the
9 A. Could you please repeat it again, your question?
10 Q. Sir, before the month of May, 2004, you had never heard that some
11 people were killed in Bratunac in the school of Bratunac or on the streets
12 of Bratunac?
13 A. I heard not at the school or in the streets of Bratunac, but in
14 Kravica, and Kravica belongs to Bratunac. So I did hear, I heard that
15 people were killed, Muslims were killed in Kravica. I heard that on the
16 14th or 15th of July.
17 Q. Sir, my question regards only the city of Bratunac, not the
18 municipality of Bratunac.
19 A. I didn't hear.
20 Q. Is it exact to say that you went to Potocari when the Muslim
21 refugees were in Potocari?
22 A. Outside of Potocari.
23 Q. And is it exact to say that you went to Potocari to bring
24 Dr. Vesna Ivanovic, as well as a nurse?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the doctor and the nurse went to Potocari in order to give
2 medical help to refugees if that was -- if there was a need for their
3 help; is that right?
4 A. Most likely that was the reason. What else could it be? They
5 said that they were going there in order to provide treatment to any
6 patients in case somebody got sick in that heat. That was the explanation
7 they gave. I was simply asked to drive them there. They couldn't go
8 there on foot.
9 Q. And they had received the -- an order to go to Potocari; is that
11 A. I don't know whether they received an order. Most likely they
12 did, but at any rate they explained the reason why I needed to drive them
13 to Potocari.
14 Q. Is it exact to say that during the war and in 1995 there were some
15 power restrictions in Bratunac?
16 A. There were, yes. There were restrictions, both in power and
17 water-supply. Yes, it happened because the system was out of order.
18 Q. Is it exact to say that there wasn't enough food in Bratunac?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And the hospital in Bratunac did not have sufficient medication;
21 is that right?
22 A. You put a difficult question. I heard that there was a problem
23 with medications and that they obtained various medications through the
24 Red Cross of Yugoslavia and from abroad and so on, which means that the
25 supply wasn't a regular one. Now, as to just how bad shortages were, I
1 don't know. All I know is people tried to collect medication from all
2 sources. I know about that because I talked to doctors at the time.
3 Q. Is it right to say that when we talk about supplies that came from
4 Yugoslavia that it stopped in 1994?
5 A. I don't know when it stopped. I think that when Serbia introduced
6 sanctions towards the Republika Srpska, then, yes, the supplies were
7 drastically reduced. Now, as to when the sanctions were introduced, I
8 can't remember that. The population definitely felt them, because there
9 were shortages of everything.
10 Q. Is it true that within your functions you could sometimes control
11 the humanitarian convoys which were going to Srebrenica?
12 A. It's true in two possible situations. One was when the chief of
13 security wasn't there, wasn't able to go, then the commander would order
14 me to go and get paperwork. And the other situation was when security
15 reasons required me, I would get involved and help Nikolic and military
16 police which physically searched the vehicles. This happened if convoys
17 were too big.
18 Q. Would you agree that there were more humanitarian convoys going to
19 Srebrenica than convoys going to Bratunac?
20 A. Yes. I could also add something by your leave. The same convoys
21 arrived, but for example out of 10 trucks with food, two would go to
22 Bratunac and eight or nine would go to Srebrenica. That's how it was.
23 Perhaps there were some special deliveries too, I don't remember. But
24 once they went through the check-point, usually one or two vehicles would
25 remain in the distribution centre and the remaining vehicles, sometimes
1 that would be up to 20, would go to Srebrenica. So there was a big
2 difference in the number of vehicles going to Srebrenica and Bratunac.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. Thank you Madam Fauveau.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Krgovic, please.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Celanovic, I will put a couple of questions
8 to you in relation to what you discussed with the Prosecutor,
9 Mr. Zivanovic and Madam Fauveau. You said that you assisted in the work
10 of investigative organs, that you collected some documents regarding war
11 crimes and that you also participated in the inspection of convoys. As
12 far as I could understand you, this was not part of your regular duties,
13 the regular duties that you performed as a lawyer in the organ for legal
14 affairs and moral guidance. Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. These other tasks that the commander assigned to you in addition
17 to your regular job duties?
18 A. Precisely so.
19 Q. And you reported directly to the commander on these tasks?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You did not report to the assistant for legal affairs and moral
22 guidance in the brigade, did you?
23 A. No, I did not, because that was the arrangement with the
25 Q. I have a problem with the translation. Let me repeat. You did
1 not report to the assistant for moral guidance, but rather you reported to
2 the commander?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Another question that I wanted to put to you. In your statement
5 given to the security centre in Bratunac you mentioned at one point that
6 you saw members of the Dutch battalion of UNPROFOR in Bratunac, sometime
7 in July of 1995. Do you remember saying this in your statement?
8 A. Yes, I also remember seeing them. If it is in the statement, it
9 is correct.
10 Q. Can you tell me, under what circumstances did you see them? Let
11 me paraphrase your statement. It says here that you saw them in front of
12 the military police building. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were they armed? Did they have their personal weapons on them?
15 A. Rifles.
16 Q. Did you find out the reason for them being there in Bratunac?
17 A. Yes, I did learn about the reason. It was quite a large group.
18 At one point I asked the military police commander about them, what was
19 going on with them, and he said either that they had crossed over to our
20 side, or that they had surrendered, although it's not quite logical,
21 because they were still armed. He used this strange expression, they had
22 crossed over to our side. That's what I remember.
23 Q. And do you know why they crossed over to your side?
24 A. Based on what he said, on what he learned from them, there was a
25 conflict with the armed forces from Srebrenica. I'm now referring to the
1 conflict between the forces of the international community, namely
2 UNPROFOR, with the army from Srebrenica and that somebody got hurt, was
3 either killed or wounded. Some of their members were killed or wounded on
4 that occasion.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the last bit of
6 the answer.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So they took shelter?
9 A. At any rate, they found themselves in Bratunac.
10 Q. So they took shelter in Bratunac, you said the army, the conflict
11 was between the members of UNPROFOR and Muslims, right?
12 A. Muslims, yes. But soldiers, Muslims. And he also said to me
13 something about the interpreter saying that they were afraid of being
14 there because they felt threatened. They felt threatened both by Muslims
15 and Serbs, but they trusted Serbs more, so this is why they came to Serbs.
16 They trusted us more, thinking that we wouldn't harm them. "We" meaning
17 the Serbs, the Serbian army.
18 Q. When you say "up there" you mean the areas from which they had
20 A. Yes, the Muslim territory where this happened to them. This was
21 in one of the villages around Srebrenica.
22 Q. I wanted to ask you something else. In your statement you
23 mentioned that you heard about the attack on Srebrenica several days
24 before it took place. Can you please tell me what did you learn about the
25 reasons for the attack on Srebrenica? Why did the Serbian forces commence
1 this offensive?
2 A. It was a little bit strange. Srebrenica was under the protection
3 of international "PRO" forces, it was a protected enclave and shouldn't
4 have been attacked, but there were different comments and it's true
5 actually that they carried out and I know that, carried out occasional
6 incursions even after they were disarmed. They showed to the world that
7 they had been disarmed, but they continued to come to our villages and
8 attack and kill. The pretext was the burning of a village near Sekovici
9 or Vlasenica and that a lot of people were killed, there was a lot of
10 misfortune inflicted on that village and it was decided that they should
11 be definitely disarmed. That was the last cause, but actually the cause
12 was the constant incursions and the fear that this would be repeated. Not
13 all the time, but quite frequently.
14 Q. Were you aware, did you know about any plan that provided for the
15 entire Muslim population to be expelled from that area?
16 A. No.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
18 further questions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.
20 Mr. Haynes.
21 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, I have no questions for this witness.
22 Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And that brings us back to you,
24 Mr. Ostojic.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. May I proceed?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you can you some of your direct testimony,
6 but let me just clear one thing up. During the two times that you
7 testified that you spoke with Mr. Beara on July 12th and 13th of 1995, am
8 I correct that Mr. Beara never used or made derogatory remarks or comments
9 against the Muslims?
10 A. Not in front of me. I never heard that. He always behaved as an
11 officer and used the appropriate terms. Maybe he used the term "enemy" or
12 something like that.
13 Q. Sir, let me ask you -- thank you. Let me ask you this, sir: Were
14 you ever a crime investigation inspector while you were with the Bratunac
16 A. No, I never was an inspector, but I don't know what sort of
17 criminal investigations you mean. It's a broad question. Could you
18 please be more specific?
19 Q. Okay. I'll try.
20 A. In respect of whom?
21 Q. I'll try. How about specifically on the 4th of March, 1993, were
22 you ever a crime investigation inspector?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Just so that I know exactly what your position was in July of
25 1995, can you tell me again what division or unit or station you were
1 specifically in July of 1995?
2 A. I didn't belong to any unit as such. I was simply an organ of the
3 Bratunac Brigade command. I was a clerk for morale, religious and legal
4 matters. That was my function.
5 Q. If we can have for you, sir, with the Court's permission, and the
6 usher's assistance, P02406 on the ELMO and the corresponding B/C/S version
7 of that document, which I can give you the ERN number if you'd like.
8 I said ELMO; obviously e-court, I'm sorry. Thank you. If we
9 could have the English one on the left side of that split screen. Again
10 it's P02406.
11 Sir, looking at this document, I'm just going to highlight a
12 couple of things and we will, I'm sure if you like, spend as much time as
13 you want to because you are under oath and I want to give you the
14 opportunity to clarify anything you have said. Do you remember, sir, this
15 report dated the 4th of March, 1993? Do you remember it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we can just turn -- and I'm sorry we're going to switch just a
18 little bit, to the fifth page of that report, both in the -- or the last
19 page in the English and B/C/S version.
20 Sir, on the English version there is no signature but it's
21 obviously identified as being a document signed by you. I think that's
22 you, Zlatan Celanovic, and do you see the B/C/S version, sir, is that your
23 signature that appears on the last page of this document?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Am I correct then that you created this document, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let's go back to the first page, if you don't mind. And we will
3 be focusing on the top portion, top left-hand portion of that page for the
5 Now, sir, looking at the top left-hand portion of the document you
6 created and signed on or about the 4th of March, 1993, you identify
7 yourself in the first line with your name and what position you hold, a
8 reserve soldier, and underneath, sir, you type in specifically that you
9 were at that time a crime investigation inspector. Correct? At least
10 according to this report.
11 A. That is what the war headquarters named me when I was mobilised.
12 They said you will be doing these assignments. That's what they said.
13 But I can explain what I actually did. I was never given an order that I
14 was appointed to such a position.
15 Q. Okay. Well my question earlier to you wasn't limited to whether
16 you were given a written, specific order. I asked you specifically, were
17 you ever a crime investigation inspector while you were with the Bratunac
18 Brigade. Were you?
19 A. Not as an inspector, no. I would have to explain in a couple of
20 sentences what it means to investigate.
21 These are criminal affairs. As part of disciplinary proceedings,
22 I compiled statements and documents which indicate that there was a
23 discipline violation committed by the soldier. If it should turn out that
24 on the basis of his acts he had committed a criminal act, then the same
25 documents and the same statements would be compiled, and that's what you
1 would name, what such a -- such work was.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's change the subject and move to something else,
4 MR. OSTOJIC:
5 Q. Next question I have, sir, as a -- whatever during your time in
6 1993, had you also interrogated Muslim prisoners or detainees or prisoners
7 of war at that time?
8 A. Yes. In early 1993, five or six people. Everything else was in
10 Q. What about -- do you remember interrogating 35 of them in 1993, as
11 reflected in your report that we have in front of us? Do you remember
12 that? And maybe if we turn to page 3 of that corresponding report, it
13 might help him if he needs it.
14 A. It's not necessary. Could you please formulate the question?
15 Not -- it's not that 35 people were interrogated in 1993, but the report
16 was made in that year. I think the question to me was whether I had
17 interrogated 35 people in 1993. No. That's when the report was made, and
18 it refers to the period from the beginning of the war up to the date that
19 the report was compiled.
20 Q. Okay. I'll take a closer look -- yes, I'll take a closer look at
21 that, sir.
22 Let me ask you this, sir: Have you ever been informed by the
23 Office of the Prosecutor as to what your status is here or even when you
24 testified in the Blagojevic case? In other words, sir, are you considered
25 by the Prosecutor as a suspect?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And who told you that you were a suspect?
3 A. I was told by the investigator from the Prosecutor's officer or
4 from the Tribunal, Mr. Alastair Graham, I think it was.
5 Q. When did you first obtain that status, sir, as a suspect?
6 A. I was told about the status the first time when the gentleman that
7 I named came to my office in Bratunac to take a statement from me about
8 the matters that I am testifying about today. I was told that according
9 to some indications I have the status of a suspect, I was informed about
10 my rights, and I provided a statement.
11 Q. And that was before you testified in the Blagojevic case,
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And you gave that interview, sir, in December of 2003. Do you
16 A. Yes, I remember the conversation, the interview.
17 Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions about the Blagojevic case.
18 You testified in that case as a defence witness, correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And sir, in preparation for that case, did you assist the
21 attorneys in the Blagojevic case with other witnesses at all in the
22 defence of your commander, Vidoje Blagojevic?
23 A. I don't see how I could have helped them with other witnesses. I
24 was engaged as a witness and I gave my statement. I didn't understand
25 your question well, if you are asking something else. This is a fact that
1 is known to the Court and to the Prosecution, that I was then a witness
2 for the Defence. I was here in the court, and I gave a statement or I
4 Q. And I appreciate very much, sir, you telling me if you don't
5 understand the question, I'll try to restate it. Based upon information
6 and belief that I have, sir, and you correct me if I'm wrong, you met with
7 the Blagojevic defence team on numerous occasions and assisted in typing
8 out and interviewing other potential witnesses that they may bring forth
9 in the Blagojevic case. Is that true or false?
10 A. Partially it's true. They used my computer and internet
11 connection. That was my help. They didn't have anywhere else to go.
12 Q. Now how many witnesses did they use your computer and your help --
13 and internet connection, I'm sorry.
14 A. They came to my place themselves, and used the internet. Since it
15 was in English, I never turned it on, I don't know what they wrote. I
16 didn't look. Specifically Mr. Michael Karnavas used the computer and the
17 internet. Because they had no other place where they could have this
18 service, so they asked me if they could use my computer and internet.
19 Q. And --
20 A. And then they caused a lot of viruses, so they actually messed
21 things up for me when they used my computer.
22 Q. I'll move along quickly. I just want to know when this
23 approximately, sir, and how many witness did you help them out with?
24 A. I don't understand the question. Again, I had nothing to do with
25 other witnesses. Maybe they got a couple of names of people who
1 potentially knew something and they contacted those people without my
2 presence. They didn't ask for any other help. Who would be able to
3 know? And that person would be able to know. And they searched for
4 themselves a little bit, they had Mr. Lugonic, who was looking for those
5 people. I gave them information and then they engaged him. The most
6 important thing for him was my comments.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think witness you don't need to give such long
8 answers. I mean I think if you restrict your answers to a yes or no, or
9 to a simple explanation, we'll get finished faster. Mr. Ostojic, I
10 suppose you can move to something else as well.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, let me ask you this about Vidoje Blagojevic: Was he present
13 in Bratunac during the day or days after the fall of Srebrenica in July of
15 A. I don't remember exactly when I saw him after the fall of
16 Srebrenica, but during those two, three, four to five days I definitely
17 did not see him before or after. I didn't see him.
18 Q. Do you know where he was during those four or five days
19 immediately after the fall of Srebrenica?
20 A. I don't know where he was.
21 Q. Let me ask you something about the Bratunac Brigade. Do you know
22 if they were the personnel, from that brigade, that was securing or
23 assisting in securing the Muslim detainees in the school and the stadium,
24 as you have testified to on direct this morning -- or this afternoon?
25 A. I'm not quite sure. I think that I saw several guards in the
1 street next to the municipal building when I was standing on the corner at
2 dusk. I think judging just by the uniforms that they were members of the
3 Bratunac Brigade. I didn't go up to them, however. It's possible that it
4 was them, I'm not sure. I couldn't mention anyone by name. I'm not
5 saying that they were, and I'm not saying that they were not, but judging
6 by the uniforms, they could have been members of our brigade.
7 Q. Now, specifically I know you mentioned the municipal building, but
8 I'm talking about the Vuk Karadzic school where you took this walk that
9 one day or evening. Do you remember seeing any Bratunac Brigade personnel
10 near or around the Vuk Karadzic school, July 12th, I think you said, 1995,
11 or 13th?
12 A. Again, about the names, let's just have it as a school, it's
13 either Vuk Karadzic or Branko Radicevic. In any case it is the school
14 where people were placed and I saw at dusk when I got there with Mr. Beara
15 on the right-hand side towards the municipal building. I'm talking about
16 the position where those people were, the school is in front to the right
17 the street leads towards the municipal building, and next to an old
18 building there were four to five people who, by the way they looked,
19 seemed to be from the Bratunac Brigade, from our brigade. I didn't see
20 them during the day.
21 Q. And thank you for that, sir. Just so we'll clear, we will call it
22 the school, but I want to make sure we're talking about the same school
23 where the detainees were kept during the time immediately after the fall
24 of Srebrenica. Whatever the name is, we can work with it by identifying
25 it that way.
1 How about near the stadium? Did you see any Bratunac Brigade
2 personnel near the stadium on or about July 12th and 13th, 1995?
3 A. I really couldn't tell. I could see several soldiers standing
4 there, just several soldiers standing there because I was at the market
5 when I was standing there. It was too far away, and it was dark, and I
6 really couldn't tell if they belonged to the Bratunac Brigade or not. In
7 any case some of them were there, because I stayed at the market while
8 Mr. Beara went up to the gate.
9 Q. Okay. How long were you at the market that night?
10 A. Half a minute to a minute. Until Mr. Beara came back from the
11 gate and then we continued towards the school. Well, let's say two
12 minutes, 50 or 60 steps that he needed to cross from there to here. Let's
13 say it was three to five minutes. Not a very long time, not very long.
14 Q. Now, am I correct, sir, in reading your interview and your
15 statements that when you saw Mr. Beara on July 12th, 1995, purportedly,
16 that he was alone, by himself, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the next day that you saw him he was also alone, according to
19 your interview and statements, correct?
20 A. He was by himself when he was talking to me. Both on the 12th and
21 the 13th.
22 Q. That's all I wanted to clarify, sir.
23 Now, do you remember, sir, when you -- prior to taking this walk
24 purportedly with Mr. Beara that you actually went out, out of curiosity,
25 to see what was happening in the town and you walked through the same
1 area, the school and the stadium, before Mr. Beara arrived? Do you
2 remember stating that in your interview or statements?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And, in fact, sir --
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And that was about 2100 hours, according to your statement,
7 correct? Later in the evening, you went out, took a stroll to see what
8 was happening and that's where you saw the buses and trucks, correct?
9 A. About 9.00, 9.30, if I say approximately; it could be an hour more
10 or less. I can't be precise. Any time. It's when we were going, I was
11 going during the day by myself independently.
12 Q. Well, I want to just clarify that. According to your statement
13 though sir, it was that you went out that night prior to meeting
14 supposedly, Mr. Beara, prior to that, you went out at approximately 2100
15 hours to take a look around town, if you will. Do you remember giving
16 that testimony or statement?
17 A. I don't think that that's in the statement or that the statement
18 goes like that.
19 Q. Well, let's take a quick look at it. It's a minor point, but I
20 want to make sure I'm on the same pages you. If we could look at 6D 17 on
21 the e-court. And I'm going to -- if we could just go to page 3 of that
22 statement. Thank you, I'm sorry.
23 Do you have your statement here sir on e-court in front of you
24 dated the 28th of August, 2003, and directing your attention to the second
25 half of that statement. It starts -- and it's not identified with a
1 specific paragraph, so therefore I can not identify the paragraph. But it
2 states, "At around 2100 hours I went out of curiosity," and then you
3 describe that you went up and down the street, and you went to the
4 elementary school. Then it goes on to say that you noticed that the
5 street was full of trucks. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, yes, I do.
7 Q. And then only later in that statement, sir, actually on the next
8 page when you -- on the lower portion of that page when you identify that
9 you spoke with Mr. Beara and the next page you say you talked and you
10 walked with Mr. Beara, right?
11 A. The 2100 hours refers to the 12th of July, not to the 13th of July
12 if you look up there you would see that it's referring to the 12th. When
13 I was giving the statement I could tell what I was doing the day before,
14 because I had been able to establish exactly what I was doing on the 13th.
15 In the evening of the 12th, I saw those who were arriving and then the
16 next day, too, I saw them.
17 Q. Okay. And the next day would be with Mr. Beara, correct,
18 according to you?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And that would be the next day in the evening, correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, sir, in this statement here if you see, do you remember
23 talking to the bus drivers when you went out for this curious walk and
24 being informed by them that the Muslim detainees were going to be driven
25 to Kladanj the next day. Do you remember that they told you that, the bus
2 A. Correct. They told me during the day when I went. Not in the
3 evening, during the day. Not in the evening when I was with Mr. Beara. I
4 never talked with anybody then. I went to take a bath and to change on
5 the 13th, or possibly on the 12th in the evening around 9.00 that they
6 told me, "Why are you not driving the people, how come you're standing
7 around," and I got the answer.
8 Q. Okay. And that was on the 12th before your meeting with
9 Mr. Beara, correct?
10 A. It was on the 12th at night, or on the 13th during the day. I
11 cannot remember when it was that I asked a couple of drivers exactly what
12 it was all about.
13 Q. And the bus drivers also told you there was some sort of
14 reorganisation, didn't they?
15 A. Yes, and that they had the information about the reasons for
17 Q. And, sir, Mr. Beara, that was way before you allegedly met
18 Mr. Beara for the first time. You had this information before you met
19 Mr. Beara, correct?
20 A. Not much earlier. Not much before. Probably the 12th in the
21 evening or on the 13th, around midday, was when I got the information. I
22 mean I don't know what it states here, I don't know if dates are
23 mentioned. Because I went twice, the evening before and then I met
24 Mr. Beara either in the morning or in the -- in the evening or in the
25 morning, and then on the 13th after Resid Sinanovic and the group left me,
1 I was already tired. Nobody else came. I went home to have a quick
2 shower and to change and that's when I went to see if anything had
3 changed. In one of those trips to the street I had these comments with
4 the drivers. They had information like that. I don't know who they got
5 the information from.
6 Q. Now, just so I understand your testimony, sir, do you remember
7 supposedly informing Mr. Beara that the town was not secure and that you
8 invited him to take this walk so that you could show him that the town was
9 not secure?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that question was put to him even in more
11 detail earlier on, and he has answered it.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: If he has, I'll move on, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I
13 didn't remember it.
14 Q. Do you remember, sir, when you met with Mr. Beara that you had
15 told him that you had this Chronicle of Our Graves and that you
16 participated in gathering information for the book having collected
17 eyewitness accounts of Serbs when Serb villages were destroyed and Serbian
18 civilians killed. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm looking at your statement and if we could just turn to it, the
21 same one that should be on the ELMO at page 4, this is what you write and
22 I want to ask you to confirm it. Or if you want to comment on it, you
23 can. You state -- I'll wait for it to get on, if we could have both.
24 We're on page 4, the top portion, if we may. Is this 6D17? Yes? I don't
25 believe the English correlates, but I can read it or we can wait,
1 Your Honour; whatever your pleasure is.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if you can read it, that will make
3 everybody's life easier.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. I just didn't want to -- I think my
5 learned colleague has it.
6 Q. It states, "He told me to use what I had and if the soldiers
7 brought someone to the military police, it was my task to identify the
8 persons brought in terms of whether they were suspects. He said that if
9 any of the suspects were on the list I was to inform a security officer so
10 that such persons --"
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Stop, Mr. Ostojic. This has been dealt with
12 already. The question was put to him. He answered it. And it is
13 precisely a repetition of what you are stating. I'm sure if you stop for
14 a minute and go back to the transcript, you will find it. Or take my word
15 for it.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: I will obviously take your word for it, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, let me ask you this: Who is Miroslav Deronjic?
18 A. Miroslav Deronjic is a politician from Bratunac. He was the
19 president of the municipality for a while, the president of the SDS.
20 Q. Was he, sir, near or in the town immediately after the fall of
21 Srebrenica in July of 1995, if you remember?
22 A. I don't remember meeting him. I didn't really walk around town
23 much. He didn't go up there. At least I didn't see him.
24 Q. Let's talk about the interview that you had with this gentleman
25 Resid Sinanovic. Sir, I want to ask you this: Is it true that after you
1 interviewed Mr. Sinanovic that you were not alone in your interview but
2 another gentleman joined you in your offices to speak with Mr. Sinanovic;
3 is that correct?
4 A. It's correct, yes.
5 Q. And what's that gentleman's name? Do you remember?
6 A. Srbislav Davidovic.
7 Q. Okay. And how long did -- what's his nickname, Buco?
8 A. His nickname is not Buco, it's Buco?
9 Q. How long was Mr. Davidovic with you and Mr. Sinanovic in your
10 office with you when you were interviewing him?
11 A. To be exactly, I spoke with Resid for about an hour, and
12 Mr. Davidovic spoke with Resid for an hour. While he talked to him I was
13 there for 10 to 15 minutes and then I went out so that they could speak as
14 good old friends without my presence, and he stayed with him for about an
16 Q. Who, if anyone, did you call then after your meeting to transport
17 Mr. Sinanovic to the school?
18 A. I didn't call anyone. The policemen went in themselves. It was a
19 question of who were these people, the so-called specials, the two or
20 three people. They entered the office because they knew, I informed them
21 that he was there. You couldn't really kid around with them, they needed
22 to know that there was another person whom Nikolic had brought in and that
23 he was a colleague and that he wouldn't be there for long. And he wasn't
24 there for long and they were there to take him away. That's it.
25 Q. Who within the Bratunac Brigade, including your immediate
1 superior, Major Jeftic or Mr. Blagojevic, did you inform about these two
2 instances where prisoners were brought to you?
3 A. No one.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, how much more do you have?
5 MR. OSTOJIC: 15, 20 minutes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll have a break now. And then we will
7 continue afterwards. Thank you. Usual 25 minutes.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Witness, we're almost done here, just a few more questions.
13 Continuing on with Mr. Sinanovic, is it true, sir, that people from
14 Bratunac actually visited Mr. Sinanovic when he was detained in the
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And these people were neighbours and acquaintances of
18 Mr. Sinanovic; correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And these people were Stojan Ilic; correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And who is other individual?
23 A. Mladoljub, I can't remember his last name right now. Krsmanovic.
24 Mladoljub Krsmanovic, nicknamed Vampir.
25 Q. Okay. With respect to these two individuals, do you know what
1 their ethnic -- ethnicity is?
2 A. Serbs.
3 Q. And did you learn from them that they went to the school to visit
4 Mr. Sinanovic after you had interviewed them?
5 A. I learned from Stojan Ilic that the two of them had been to
7 Q. Now, sir, you came forward to the Bratunac police station, or in
8 Republika Srpska there to give your statement on August 28th, 2003,
9 because why?
10 A. Because I was summoned.
11 Q. Well, isn't it accurate sir that the reason you gave your
12 statement on the 28th of August, 2003, was because you were following the
13 proceedings here in The Hague against Mr. Momir Nikolic?
14 A. I don't understand the question. I simply received summons from
15 police to appear and give statement about what I knew about Srebrenica in
17 Q. Did you testify in any other case other than in the Blagojevic
18 case in The Hague?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: With respect to Mr. Beara and the time
21 that you met him, the first time that you claim that you met him, how did
22 Mr. Beara leave? On foot or in a car?
23 A. On foot. From the gate of the command to the command building,
24 there are 50 metres. He went to the building.
25 Q. And the second time that you claim that you saw Mr. Beara, how did
1 he leave on the second time?
2 A. Same.
3 Q. Now, sir, am I correct in understanding that you decided on your
4 own to stop interrogating the Muslim detainees in Bratunac in July of
5 1995, correct?
6 A. I had nobody else to interrogate.
7 Q. But my point is though, sir, that no one told you to stop
8 interrogating any Muslim detainees, you did it on your own, correct?
9 A. Nobody told me anything, because there weren't any anymore.
10 Q. Well, how many detainees were in the school, sir?
11 A. I think several hundred, maybe more.
12 Q. Did you interrogate any of those detainees?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Why not?
15 A. I did not receive instructions to go to school.
16 Q. How about at the stadium, did you interrogate or interview any of
17 the detainees in the stadium?
18 A. I already told you that I didn't go to the stadium.
19 Q. Fair enough. Sir, I think it was during your direct, I think you
20 said after that second purported meeting with Mr. Beara, you never saw him
21 again, correct?
22 A. Not until today, no.
23 Q. That's all the questions I have.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
1 Mr. McCloskey, is there re-examination?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Briefly.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
4 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
5 Q. You said you've known Mr. Borovcanin for a long time. Is he a
6 long-time Bratunac resident?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Isn't his family living there?
9 A. I don't know where his family lives. But he was there two years
10 before the Srebrenica event. That's when he was in Bratunac, two to two
11 and a half years.
12 Q. 1993 -- the 1993 time-frame?
13 A. Roughly. 1994.
14 Q. And what was his position, if any, in Bratunac?
15 A. He worked in police. Whether he was the Chief of Police or
16 commander of the station, I don't know. One of the two.
17 Q. So he was a -- a superior in the Bratunac municipal police?
18 A. While he was in office.
19 Q. Yes. Do you know if that was a public security or state
21 A. It was police station.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Civilian police.
24 Q. Now, talking about that check-point that regulated the
25 international -- the humanitarian convoys, did you have information that
1 that check-point functioned in accordance with the orders of the Main
2 Staff of the VRS and orders of the brigade commander?
3 A. I have information that the check-point functioned in accordance
4 of the brigade commander. Now, as to whether somebody above him issued
5 orders, I don't know about that because he approved that check-point, and
6 people were assigned to man it.
7 Q. You were asked about whether you were aware of any killings in
8 Bratunac, and I want to ask you about the Vuk Karadzic school. Were you
9 aware of -- do you have any information about killings at the Vuk Karadzic
10 school in Bratunac in 1992?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question was
13 already put to the witness, and the witness already answered that
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm just joining, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say about that?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have prior testimony that would indicate that if
19 perhaps he -- I could refresh his recollection, the answer might be a
20 little different.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So refer him straight away to his prior testimony.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. Do you remember being asked about whether you'd heard about --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Another thing that Judge Prost is pointing out to me
25 and which I had not noticed is line 20 on page 79. Bratunac in 1992.
1 It's 1995.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. The reason I asked that
3 question is that Ms. Fauveau asked a very broad question about killings in
4 Bratunac and -- before he testified, and that's why I'm going back to --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go straight to what you -- you want to confront the
6 witness with.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Do you -- had you heard that there were killings in the Vuk
9 Karadzic school in 1992 of Muslim detainees?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: In 1992 or 1995?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: 1992.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
14 THE FRENCH INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Inaudible.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will have to object
16 on the basis that this question is not relevant in this case. It is
17 completely outside of the frame, time-frame covered by this indictment.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll join also, but it is also outside the scope of
20 the cross, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say about this objection?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Throughout the defence in our case for forcible
23 transfer the Defence has suggested that people left voluntarily or their
24 own free will. We have heard evidence in this case that people, Muslims,
25 left the area because of their knowledge or hearing of various events and
1 murders that have occurred in the -- in the area of Bratunac in 1992.
2 This particular incident was mentioned by at least one witness, and when
3 the door is opened as wide as it was opened by the Defence, I would just
4 prefer to bring that in. But it is of course your call.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We will confer on this.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have further questions, Mr. McCloskey, go
8 ahead. But let's drop this. I think it's outside the scope of what we
9 are discussing.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I won't ask that if that's what you think. Thank
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojanovic, yes.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a
14 good opportunity, given that the Prosecutor raised an issue after my
15 cross-examination about the position of Mr. Borovcanin in Bratunac before
16 the Srebrenica event. We can discuss with the Prosecution during which
17 time Mr. Borovcanin was in Bratunac, and holding which post, and who -- to
18 whom he was superior. We can stipulate this with the Prosecution and we
19 are prepared to discuss this in order to establish whether Mr. Borovcanin
20 was indeed employed at the police station and indeed on this post.
21 Mr. Borovcanin came to Bratunac in August of 1992, and he left it in
22 February of 1994.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. My question to you, stop -- because the
24 witness is still present. My question to you is this: Are you in effect
25 contesting the witness, what he stated in relation to your client?
1 Because that you are required to do if you don't agree with what he
2 stated. Otherwise I suggest that you -- we do not discuss any further,
3 and we let this gentleman go.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We don't have
5 any problems with what the witness said. The witness said what he knew,
6 roughly two years, which is approximately the accurate period of time, so
7 that's fine.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
9 Sir, you have come to the end of your testimony. I thank you for
10 having come over to give testimony, and on behalf of everyone I wish you a
11 safe journey back home.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So, documents. You all have the list, I suppose.
15 Are there any objections on the part of the Defence to the admission of
16 any of these documents? We hear none.
17 So they are all admitted as indicated in the list. There are none
18 of them that you require to be under seal.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. So they are so
21 admitted. Madam Registrar will take care of registering these.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I also noticed that the defence
23 used the statement of facts with Momir Nikolic and quite a pit of a was
24 put on the screen. We will be offering that into evidence through Momir
25 Nikolic and others, and if we can mark it for evidence now and perhaps put
1 that part of it mentioned in evidence, if not the whole thing.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I was just on the point of asking the Defence if
3 they wish to tender any documents.
4 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in preparing for
6 today's hearing we verified whether this exhibit was already admitted into
7 evidence, since if you remember we used it during the evidence of the
8 Deputy Commander of the Dutch battalion. It was admitted at that time,
9 but we discussed at that time whether the whole document would be admitted
10 or just a portion of it, and you ruled on it, Your Honours and we do not
11 have any problems with that. And this is why we do not tender it into
12 evidence today.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you for that explanation.
14 Do you concur, Mr. McCloskey?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can't -- thank you for the reminder. I don't
16 remember that. Was the whole document in or just a portion? Because if
17 we're getting to bigger pieces of the document, maybe we just get the
18 whole document in.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't remember myself. Anyway, any other Defence
20 team wishes to tender any document? No. So that closes the chapter on
21 this witness.
22 Ms. Frease -- Ms. Gilleece.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: She is ready to go, although the Defence estimate
24 of four hours was a little off, but that happened. So she's ready to go
25 and we're ready to go.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good evening, Ms. Gilleece.
3 THE WITNESS: Good evening, sir.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal, if that's the right
5 way to put it. You are about to start giving evidence. You know the
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed with the solemn declaration and then
9 you can start testifying.
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: EILEEN GILLEECE
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I suppose you are aware that whatever
14 protective measures you enjoyed in the past have been lifted as per
15 specific request by the Prosecution.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I am aware of that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want to make sure that you are content, you
18 are happy with that arrangement.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's fine.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye will be putting some questions to you
21 and we will see what happens afterwards.
22 Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good evening,
24 Your Honours, counsel.
25 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
1 Q. I will put some questions to you. I would just ask that you speak
2 a little slowly and allow a small pause between question and answer so
3 that we can all keep up with you.
4 Let me start by asking you if you could just tell the Court
5 briefly about your present employment?
6 A. I'm currently employed by the New Jersey state police, I am a
7 detective sergeant with the regional intelligence centre out of west
8 Trenton, New Jersey.
9 Q. And how long have you been employed by the state police in New
11 A. For 23 years.
12 Q. And prior to -- well, not prior to that, but did you work for the
13 office the Prosecutor at some point?
14 A. Yes, from 19 -- October of 1999 until April of 2003 I took an
15 approved leave of absence from the state police and came to work at the
16 ICTY, specifically the OTP.
17 Q. And prior to your employment at the ICTY, had you been employed by
18 the state police in New Jersey?
19 A. Yes, I was employed with the New Jersey state police since 1984.
20 Q. During the course of your employment, before you came to the ICTY,
21 could you tell the Court just briefly what you -- what kind of work you
22 did, and what kind of training you received?
23 A. Yes, I -- I was trained as a New Jersey state trooper, you attend
24 an academy for six months. Everyone starts on the road, on the highway.
25 I did that for four years, then I became a detective. I was a detective
1 for about 11 years prior to coming to the ICTY. I investigated crimes of
2 missing persons, paedophiles, homicide, official corruption, serious and
3 serial crime, and organised crime.
4 Q. Turning to your term at the Office of the Prosecutor, can you tell
5 the Court basically what your duties and responsibilities were, beginning
6 with your title?
7 A. I was an investigator for team 9. As an investigator I was
8 charged with locating and identifying evidence, preserving it, identifying
9 individuals with the case that I was investigating, which was a -- crimes
10 against the Serbs -- the crimes that were committed by the ABiH during the
11 period of 1992 to 1993 in Eastern Bosnia.
12 Q. Now, was that specific to your assignment to team 9?
13 A. Yes, sir, it was.
14 Q. And did you, during the course of your work for team 9, did you
15 have occasion to take statement from witnesses or suspects?
16 A. Yes, we took numerous statements from witnesses, and I met with
17 one suspect.
18 Q. Now, during the course of those activities and responsibilities,
19 did you make use of language assistance, interpreters analysts, things of
20 that nature?
21 A. Yes, we used the military analyst team quite often and always used
22 interpreters because I only speak English.
23 Q. Okay. Now, as a member of the investigative team with team 9, did
24 you exchange information with other teams if there were other teams in the
25 Office of the Prosecutor?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Okay. And did you do that regularly?
3 A. Fairly often if it involved issues of concern for both teams.
4 Q. Now, could I just direct your attention to the 2nd of October,
5 2001, if I may?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you working on that day for the Office of the Prosecutor?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. Can you tell the Court where you were on that day?
10 A. I was in Serbia. I went to Valjevo Serbia to meet with
11 General Zivanovic. We met him at the -- I was a language assistant,(redacted)
12 (redacted) from team 9 and the analyst that was assigned to team 9, Robert
13 Cooper. The three of us went to the post office in Valjevo to meet with
14 General Zivanovic. He then took us to a restaurant in Peti Puk, which was
15 not too far from the post office.
16 Q. Now, had you made a prior arrangement to meet with the general?
17 A. Yes, I had spoken to him on the telephone in September and he had
18 said he would meet with us and he had some people to introduce us to that
19 would have information concerning the -- November 6, 1992 Kamenica
20 incident. He did not want to give me the names of the individuals I would
21 be meeting for security purposes as we were on an unsecure phone.
22 Q. Now, at the time that you met him, could you tell us approximately
23 when on the 2nd of October, 2001 that occurred?
24 A. It was about 11.30 -- I mean 11.00 we met him at the post office
25 and then we moved on to the restaurant at 11.30.
1 Q. Okay. Now, initially when you met the general, was he alone or
2 was he with somebody else?
3 A. He was alone in his own car.
4 Q. Okay. And you indicated that you proceeded to follow him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was that to a restaurant?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Now, could you tell us what occurred when you arrived at the
10 A. When we got to the restaurant there were two other men already
11 seated at the table when we went in that General Zivanovic then introduced
12 us to.
13 Q. And can you tell the Court who those two men were?
14 A. It was Vinko Pandurevic and Djordje Sarapa.
15 Q. Okay. And did General Zivanovic explain to you who they were?
16 A. General -- yes, he did. He told us that Pandurevic,
17 Mr. Pandurevic had been a student of his at the military academy, and that
18 he also was in charge of the Zvornik area when it was recaptured in 1993
19 in the Kamenica area. Mr. Sarapa said that he was a friend of
20 Mr. Pandurevic's, that he was a attorney by profession, but that day in
21 the restaurant he was merely there as a friend of Mr. Pandurevic.
22 Q. Now, did there come a time when Mr. Pandurevic indicated to you
23 that he had something to say?
24 A. Actually, General Zivanovic said that first he started the meeting
25 by saying that Mr. Pandurevic wanted to tell us of his actions in 1995. I
1 then explained to both Mr. Pandurevic and the general that team 9
2 investigate -- we investigated the crimes committed by the ABiH from the
3 1992 to 1993, however there was a team here at the Tribunal, team 6, led
4 by Peter McCloskey, that investigates issues of that concern.
5 Q. And following that explanation, did you have further occasion to
6 speak to Mr. Pandurevic?
7 A. Yes, Mr. Pandurevic explained that he had spoken to General
8 Zivanovic and he was under the impression that Zivanovic trusted us and he
9 wanted to know if it would be possible if we -- he passed us some
10 information to team 6 because he had heard that we would listen to him
11 without any prejudice, and he thought we would be objective and we could
12 pass the message to Mr. McCloskey, could we do that.
13 Q. Okay. Now, did you agree to do that?
14 A. We agreed to that, I explained to Mr. Pandurevic that I was sort
15 of on the back foot in the sense that I knew for team 9 he was not -- he
16 was considered solely a witness. I did not know his status with the rest
17 of the Tribunal, so I explained to him that as a witness he could speak
18 freely to me. As a suspect to the Tribunal he had certain rights, that
19 would be that he -- he would be allowed to have an attorney present, that
20 he could -- anything he would say to me would be recorded and reported
21 back to the ICTY, that he could stop speaking to me at any time. I went
22 through all the rights as the highest standard would be for a suspect.
23 And I gave those to him. And he agreed to speak with me. Mr. Sarapa
24 actually thanked me for explaining the situation, and said they were quite
25 aware of what his rights were, as did Mr. Pandurevic.
1 Q. Now, it has just come to my attention, Mr. President, if it would
2 be possible to redact the name of the interpreter who was mentioned by the
3 witness. It is my understanding it was on page 87, line 20 of the
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
6 MR. HAYNES: I have nothing to say about that, but I have
7 something else to say at this stage.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's deal with this first. Page?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Page 87, line 20.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Line 20. So we redact the last two words on that
11 line, being the name of the language assistant.
12 Yes, Mr. Haynes.
13 MR. HAYNES: It's been drawn to my attention that the witness is
14 reading from something. I would like know what it is and if I haven't
15 already got it, I would like a copy of it, please. Perhaps if she is
16 reading from some sort of aide-memoire, we could establish the reason for
17 her doing that but she is reading it right now.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. Do you have a document in front of you
19 that you are reading from, Ms. Gilleece?
20 THE WITNESS: I wasn't directly reading from it sir, but yes, I
21 have my notes to file on this incident. The number is 01848867.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a look at it, please.
23 THE WITNESS: I also have a memo.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is actually marked as --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- no, no. We would like to have a look at it
1 first to see what it is.
2 I can confirm that what we have here is a document which has an
3 ERN number starting from 0184-8866 until and inclusive of 0184-8871, okay,
4 being an investigative note to file. And then there was also a memo from
5 Ms. Gilleece to the acting chief of investigations dated 31st of October,
6 2001, subject, team 9 meeting with VRS General Milenko Zivanovic, retired,
7 Vinko Pandurevic and Djordje Sarapa, on 2nd October, 2001.
8 MR. HAYNES: And do I understand that those documents have been
9 marked by the witness?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me go through every page. Yeah, there are
11 some minor -- there are some markings, yes, on practically every page.
12 Not much. I suppose if -- on the other document, the memo, there is
14 MR. HAYNES: Well, this is all I require. I require, please, the
15 date of the investigative note to file to be established, because it's an
16 undated document.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: 2nd October, 2001.
18 MR. HAYNES: That's the date of the meeting.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, this is the date -- investigative note to
20 file to establish -- because it's an undated document. The date, 2nd
21 October, 2001.
22 MR. HAYNES: I'm not going to get involved in an unnecessary
23 argument with you, but I don't belief that was the date it was created and
24 I would like that date established, please.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap.
1 MR. HAYNES: Oh, sorry. Would the Prosecution be good enough to
2 provide a copy of the marked document.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Here.
4 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: The marked document that Mr. Haynes is referring
6 to is -- is P02408. I believe Mr. Haynes has a copy.
7 MR. HAYNES: Yes, but I haven't got the markings, that's the
8 point. They may be completely insignificant, but I'm entitled to them and
9 I would like them.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: If the witness has made use of that document while
11 she is testifying, I think there can be no question as to what the
12 procedure ought to be. I think the witness, once asked, has to make this
13 document available.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I fully agree with the Court. I'm just not sure
15 it's established yet in the record what extent or what documents she was
16 actually relying on if at all I would like to put that to her, if I may.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: She has two statements, two documents in front of
18 her. Perhaps she can tell us.
19 I take it that's the whole idea is to make reference to both as it
20 becomes necessary. Is that correct, Ms. Gilleece?
21 THE WITNESS: Actually, I would just need the investigative note
22 to file. I can look at a plain one, if he doesn't want any markings. The
23 memo was just in case anybody asked me that -- if I had any other document
24 about that event. The one to Patrick Lopes-Terres I don't need to see;
25 the other one would be to refresh my memory, although I'm only 45, I am
1 having a little trouble going back to 2001, sir.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: That sounds familiar, Ms. Gilleece. At 61, it
3 becomes a little bit more problematic.
4 Yes, but I think we need to make it available to the parties,
5 including yourselves, to see what annotations appear on the document. So
6 I think you need to make a photocopy of it, or show it to Mr. Sarapa or to
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: He can take a look at that; that would be fine.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, because we are running short of time.
10 We've only got six minutes left.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I do apologise, but I don't know where we
12 left off at the point of the objection.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] ... the problem becomes
14 more acute. I have to check. So ...
15 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, the simplest thing would just to get
16 this photocopied.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We just wanted --
18 MR. HAYNES: [Indiscernible]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So you can make an assessment, yeah. An assessment
20 as to whether you really require it or not. You require it, we will get
21 photocopies of it.
22 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I have seen one significant annotation that I'd
23 like to put to the witness, so if we could have that photocopied
24 overnight, I'm content.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You had asked the witness -- so we will
1 make a photocopy of it, please, for everyone.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I think I had --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You had asked the witness whether she agreed to
4 listen to Mr. Pandurevic.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And she explained that they agreed to do that.
7 Explaining the rights that she explained to him and how Mr. Sarapa
8 actually thanked her for explaining the situation and that both were aware
9 of this. And then we stopped basically there.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Well --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: You were asked -- now it has come to my attention,
12 Mr. President, if it would be possible to redact the name, et cetera.
13 That's where we left it.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We have a couple minutes left, if
15 you'd like me to proceed.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE:
18 Q. All right. You indicated, Ms. Gilleece that you had -- you
19 communicated certain rights to Mr. Pandurevic and also to Mr. Sarapa. Is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. And can you tell us at the point that you did that, had you
23 considered him a suspect?
24 A. No. Not that he was a suspect, it's just that Mr. -- General
25 Zivanovic had told us that his Chief of Staff was Dragan Obrenovic during
1 1995. Mr. Obrenovic was a guest here at The Hague at the time. He also
2 told us that he was in charge of the Zvornik area in 1995. Mr. Pandurevic
3 to my knowledge was not on the wanted poster at the time he had very
4 distinctive red hair and although I didn't memorise the wanted poster, he
5 was not on it to my knowledge. I didn't recognise the name. I checked
6 with the military analyst, Mr. Cooper was he aware of the status of Mr.
7 Pandurevic. He said he wasn't sure of it. But just on the side of safety
8 and for everyone's rights it would be better to -- it was better, I
9 thought, to take the higher standard than the lower standard. This way he
10 would be giving me anything -- any information he would be giving me would
11 be of his own free will and I clearly wanted him to know that anything he
12 said to me I was obligated to tell the Tribunal.
13 Q. During the course of your -- well, during the course of your
14 conversation with Mr. Pandurevic, did you have occasion to reiterate these
15 rights to him?
16 A. We were there from mid- -- I mean afternoon, 11.30 and we left at
17 darkness so I guess we left at around 7.00. We ate, we spoke a lot about
18 different things, and I probably gave him his warnings at least six to
19 eight times during the course of the meal.
20 Q. Now, with respect to the warnings that you gave him, did you
21 obtain an acknowledgement or some understanding from him as to what they
22 were and whether or not he was willing to proceed despite them?
23 A. Yes, he said he was fine with that, as long as I would pass the
24 information on to Mr. McCloskey.
25 Q. And did you have in particular a conversation with Mr. Sarapa with
1 regard to the acknowledgement of these rights?
2 A. Yes. Mr. Sarapa was very polite and very nice gentleman and said
3 that he -- he was very polite and said -- he thanked me for giving him the
4 warnings again each time I did and said that they were quite aware of
5 what -- what his rights were.
6 Q. Okay.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, Mr. Haynes, shall we state that
8 Mr. Sarapa is not present?
9 MR. HAYNES: Yes, please. For the record it should be said.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.
11 MR. HAYNES: And that's quite purposeful.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I'm raising it.
13 Shall we stop here?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think that's a perfect point to stop.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Gilleece will continue tomorrow
16 again in the afternoon but at 2.15. And we will see whether we can finish
17 her testimony tomorrow. Thank you.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of
20 February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.