070321ED

Page 9100

1 Wednesday, 21 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody. Madam Registrar, could you

6 kindly call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. The accused are here. Defence

10 teams are in full force. Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls,

11 Mr. Thayer.

12 Yesterday, we ended up still discussing an issue raised by

13 Mr. Haynes by way of objecting to the admission of the witness statement,

14 and we adjourned at that point, after having started discussing it. I

15 wonder if, in anticipation of the beginning of spring, you sat down and

16 came to an agreement.

17 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

18 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

19 morning, everyone. Hope springs eternal, Your Honour. I think we have an

20 understanding, if not an agreement. Briefly, I think my learned friend

21 will agree that his assertion that there was some reference in the

22 statement to the effect that none of these 11 prisoners was treated at the

23 Zvornik Hospital was, in fact, an error, and I think the Court will

24 remember well what the actual testimony was there.

25 Nevertheless, my learned friend would argue, I believe, that there

Page 9101

1 are other differences, which we are all familiar with, and I'll just leave

2 it at that. I think that's -- enough has been said as to what the

3 clarifications were, and whether the Court can accept the statement as a

4 92 ter statement with those clarifications.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Thayer.

6 Mr. Haynes. If you wish to add anything, I mean it's -- you may

7 have already said what you wanted to say.

8 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I've said all I want to say in relation to this

9 witness. I do feel we are reaching a crossroads with 92 terrace as to

10 whether the practices we are currently adopting really are saving us any

11 time at all. I have little doubt that as a viva voce witness,

12 Dr. Novakovic could have been led through in chief in half an hour, and

13 instead we are spending a whole session with him correcting and

14 clarifying, and then we're having to put in a statement of the end bit.

15 But I've said I want to all I want to say in relation to him.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So we are back to square one, to

17 an extent.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll be coming to the exhibits to be tendered by the

20 Defence soon. In the meantime, I think we need to -- we've got two

21 documents that have been tendered, and the first is the witness statement

22 which is being contested. This second one is 65 ter number 1884, which I

23 understand has not been objected to by any of the Defence teams, but I put

24 the question again just in case we missed this yesterday. There are no

25 objections to the tendering of -- to the admission of this document, 1884.

Page 9102

1 Just give us a moment to discuss or confer, conclude on 02480,

2 please, and I will be coming back to you in a minute.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I keep it on when I should switch it

5 off, and I have it off when I should have it on.

6 Coming to the question of whether Witness number 156's statement

7 should be admitted or not, and addressing some of the issues that were

8 voiced yesterday, that were raised yesterday, both by Mr. Bourgon and --

9 and in particular by Mr. Haynes.

10 We'd like to make clear first and foremost one thing, and this is

11 by way of trying to remove any misconception that there might be -- I'm

12 not say that there is, but there might be. Sometimes we do get that

13 feeling about the raison d'etre of Rule 92 ter. When the judges in

14 Plenary decided to introduce Rule 92 ter in addition to the already

15 existing 92 bis, the idea was to streamline procedure by way of

16 economising on proceedings as -- as much as possible without endangering

17 the proper administration of justice, and to supplement what was

18 considered to be a shortcoming in 92 and then 92 bis, which did not cover

19 the whole gamut of testimonies that could be dispensed with in a way that

20 is now being contemplated under the rules.

21 When we introduced Rule 92 ter, the idea was not, and would never

22 be, that once the statement or the evidence of a witness is admitted

23 pursuant to that rule, then that would only be followed by a summary of

24 that statement or testimony with no space available, no -- for either

25 party to, particularly in this case we're talking on the Prosecution of

Page 9103

1 course because this is a Prosecution witness. The idea was never to allow

2 for a situation to obtain where the witness would be brought here, have

3 his statement confirmed as per paragraph 3 of -- subparagraph 3 of

4 paragraph (A), and then have him cross-examined.

5 The idea was that we would be economising on time by introducing

6 the statement pursuant to the rule, accompanied by a summary thereof, and

7 then of course it stands to reason that any questions that may become

8 necessary in order either to supplement or to clarify the contents of that

9 previous evidence or statement would be perfectly in place and would

10 become necessary and were to be allowed. This was the gist of our

11 previous ruling on this matter.

12 It does happen, of course, and it has happened both under 92 bis

13 and under 92 ter, that on reviewing the previous testimony or the previous

14 statement the witness wishes to correct some matter, some parts of that

15 statement; and provided that the previous statement is not replaced by an

16 in -- completely in inconsistent or substantially different, new

17 statement, then this is a procedure that is perfectly -- perfectly normal

18 and is the procedure that was envisaged in the first place when we

19 introduced Rule 92 -- Rule 92 ter.

20 So it is true that in certain instances there hasn't been much

21 saving on time. That is -- that is perfectly true. And our idea on this

22 is that one tries to use one's good judgement with a view to identifying

23 those witnesses which are worth summoning and bringing over to testify

24 under Rule 92 ter and others that would -- can be classified as simply not

25 worth resorting to that procedure to Rule 92 ter at all, and bringing

Page 9104

1 forward those witnesses to testify viva voce.

2 As has been the case, you have changed your mind as you went

3 along, sometimes you asked to convert witnesses from 92 bis to 92 ter,

4 sometimes you have decided to forego that and to bring the witness to

5 testify viva voce, so I'm not saying that you don't use your good

6 judgement. But maybe it should be made use even more, and perhaps better.

7 That having been said, we are not of the opinion that what

8 happened yesterday amounts to a substantive or substantial or material

9 departure from the statement that the witness had made two years, three

10 years prior to coming to give testimony here. We find what happened to be

11 within the parameters of what I stated earlier to be the raison d'etre of

12 Rule 92 ter, and therefore we are ruling for the admission of the witness

13 statement rather than against.

14 All right. So that disposes of this issue. There was another

15 issue that was raised yesterday by more than one party, more than one

16 Defence team in relation to the next witness, 158. We also invited you to

17 make use of the break and any time available after the sitting to try and

18 reach an agreement. If I could refresh your memory, the initial point

19 raised was whether an information sheet amounts to a statement, and then

20 that sort of amalgamated into a fresh argument that seemed to me to

21 supercede the previous one; namely, that now the Prosecution, the Office

22 of the Prosecutor have obtained a proper statement from the witness that

23 has been handed to the Defence teams, and we left it there. I don't think

24 we took the discussion any further.

25 So I would like to have a feedback from Mr. Nicholls on whether

Page 9105

1 there has been progress. We'll do this and then we will come to the

2 Defence exhibits for 156.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe there has been progress, Your Honour.

4 What happened was during the first session yesterday I went out and took a

5 very brief statement from the witness, which has been passed out to you

6 and which was given to the Defence at the first break. In that statement

7 the witness confirms that he read the report, that he made certain

8 corrections, and that other than those corrections the information report

9 accurately reflects everything he said during his interview and that he

10 stated those things, he signed that new statement, which I wish to make

11 part of the 92 ter statement for this witness.

12 It is in essence in this signed statement he incorporates and

13 validates the previous statement. And I believe that there is no longer

14 an objection to proceeding with him on a 92 ter basis, and in this case I

15 believe it will save time and will be quite brief. The corrections and

16 clarifications are already contained in the very short statement I took

17 yesterday, so it should be quite a brief direct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. One question, Mr. Nicholls. Do I take

19 that to mean that you will be, for all intents and purposes, dropping

20 02482 from the list of possible exhibits? That's the information sheet,

21 information report.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour. It would be both the information

23 report and the short statement, which incorporates by reference but not

24 word for word, the information report.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you concede also that the information report,

Page 9106

1 once you confirm what you've just stated, as no longer covered by any

2 privilege --

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- under Rule 70?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I'll come to you soon after that, but I just

7 wanted to put my mind at rest that we probably be able to proceed with

8 Witness 158.

9 Now, going back to the previous witness, 156, does any one of the

10 Defence team wish to tender any documents? Mr. Ostojic, I know that

11 Mr. Meek is not here, but...

12 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President. I checked with

13 Mr. Meek, and we have no documents to tender at this time.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I take it then, there being silence in the

15 courtroom, that there are no documents to be tendered by the Defence

16 teams. So that closes that chapter.

17 Are there any further objections or renewed objections to the

18 commencement of the testimony of Witness number 158?

19 Mr. Bourgon.

20 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

21 Honours. Good morning, colleagues in the courtroom.

22 Mr. President, I did speak with my colleague yesterday concerning

23 the witness statement that was provided to us yesterday, and we -- again

24 we spoke this morning, and I informed him that I would most likely not

25 address the Court and simply let it go, with a view to trying to take what

Page 9107

1 the Trial Chamber has invited us to do on a number of occasions, which is

2 to take a pragmatic approach to these issues.

3 But in light of what you just said, Mr. President, concerning Rule

4 92 ter and the way -- what it is intended for, there are issues which I

5 need to bring, and it addresses this specific issue. Yesterday I

6 mentioned to my colleague, Why don't you simply -- the witness is there,

7 make a statement and have him sign, and that's it. We won't -- this has

8 been done in the past for intercept operators where you get a full

9 statement at the last minute.

10 Instead of doing that, my colleague chose to add a statement to

11 confirm the Prosecution's violation of the rule by introducing an

12 information report. Why? It's not for me to say. That's their -- but I

13 simply submit to the Trial Chamber that it would have been much easier

14 simply to do a statement with that witness, and the question would not

15 arise. I mentioned to my colleague yesterday, what we are afraid of is

16 that we say yes for pragmatic reasons the first time and then it goes from

17 the fingers to the elbow to the shoulder, and then the door is fully open.

18 Mr. President, concerning 92 ter, you mentioned a few minutes ago

19 that when the judges adopted this rule, its purpose was to streamline

20 proceedings. What we don't like, I'm speaking for this, the client that I

21 represent in this case, and maybe the others don't join, this is entirely

22 a personal argument but I know that it is shared by others.

23 What we are afraid of with Rule 92 ter is that it is not used by

24 the Prosecution for the purposes that it was intended for. In our view

25 the way the Prosecution is using Rule 92 ter, and when they make a

Page 9108

1 decision to move, either from viva voce to 92 ter or from 92 bis to 92

2 ter, their purpose is completely different from what it should be.

3 In our view the purpose that the Prosecution is -- the

4 Prosecution's purpose in using 92 ter is to get on the record comments

5 from their investigators, which are included sometimes in statements,

6 sometimes in information reports. It is to use the opportunity to have

7 both. They want the cake and they want to eat it, too. They want the

8 written piece of evidence and then they want the opportunity to be able to

9 cross-examine their own witness with respect to the contents of the

10 material that is "put on the record."

11 As my colleague put to you a few minutes ago, it is not using --

12 saving any time, and it is also prejudicial to the accused because they

13 actually use the statement to then in the guise of clarifying to lead the

14 witness and to cross-examine their own witness on the stand. We don't

15 save time. It is prejudicial to the accused, and it seems the Trial

16 Chamber is not seeing what the Prosecution is doing with these statements.

17 That's our argument today, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey. I think we can close the discussion

19 here. Please, let's proceed with -- with the next witness.

20 What I can say would be very short; namely, there is a pending

21 motion regarding three witnesses, three remaining witnesses out of 12 that

22 the Defence teams contest by way of maintaining that they should not be

23 produced or allow the Prosecution to produce them pursuant to 92 ter. We

24 will decide that matter.

25 We don't automatically grant every motion or every request made by

Page 9109

1 the Prosecution for resorting to Rule 92 ter. And as I said earlier, we

2 enjoin the Prosecution for the time being because it's the Prosecution to

3 use its -- or use the best judgement possible in identifying those --

4 those cases. I don't think we are with you, Mr. Bourgon, that we haven't

5 saved time or we haven't streamlined the proceedings. It is only in just

6 a handful, less than a handful of instances that perhaps the time saved

7 was -- was very little. But we still saved time, I must say.

8 So let's -- yes, Mr. Haynes.

9 MR. HAYNES: Mr. Sarapa used two documents in cross-examination.

10 The first, which we would ask to be tendered into evidence, is 7D169 which

11 is a page from the duty officer's notebook of the Zvornik Brigade of the

12 6th of July. The second was 3D17 which was the list of -- which was the

13 Red Cross list of prisoners. And we believe that was admitted under that

14 title, 3D17, on the 7th of November, so we don't ask that to be --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The Registrar can check that immediately.

16 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

17 MR. THAYER: We have no objection obviously to the notebook. That

18 is a document we would prefer to be admitted in whole, and we will seek to

19 do at a later time in any event.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Just for the record, it's -- it reads the

22 6th of July. It was the 16th of July.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. We'll check that and if it's

24 not -- it's correct, I'm told. It's correct. Thank you. So the first of

25 these documents is admitted, the other has been admitted already.

Page 9110

1 No further documents? All right. No further exhibits.

2 Witness 158.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, yesterday you mentioned his age. Can

5 we anticipate or should we anticipate any problems or any special breaks?

6 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think so, Your Honour, but I've told the

7 witness if he begins to feel tired that he -- that there is no problem, he

8 should just let us know. But I think -- I don't -- I don't want to speak

9 for the Defence, but I don't think this whole process is going to take

10 very long.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. The Defence have indicated

12 two hours.

13 Incidentally, Ms. Condon, we haven't yet had time to discuss the

14 matter raised by you yesterday, and that's the reason why we haven't come

15 back to you as yet. But we will, at the earliest opportunity. We have

16 other matters, too, that we are dealing with, some of which are urgent.

17 MS. CONDON: I appreciate that, Mr. President. Thank you.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Gavric, good morning to you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to start

22 giving evidence. Before you do so, you are required to make a solemn

23 declaration here, equivalent to an oath, that you will be testifying the

24 truth. That is the text of the solemn declaration. Please read it out

25 aloud, and that will be your commitment with us.

Page 9111

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: JUGOSLAV GAVRIC

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Dr. Gavric. Please take a seat, make

6 yourself comfortable. I am very optimistic that your testimony will begin

7 and finish today. Before I hand you over to Mr. Nicholls, I just wanted

8 to tell you one thing. If at any time you need a break or you are feeling

9 tired and you wish us to stop for a short while, then please don't

10 hesitate to tell us and we will have a break immediately.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The procedure here is Mr. Nicholls will go first,

13 and then he will be followed by some of the Defence teams on

14 cross-examination.

15 Mr. Nicholls.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

18 Q. Good morning, Doctor.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. I'm sorry you waited for some time yesterday, and we'll try to be

21 quite quick with your testimony today.

22 First of all your full name is Jugoslav Gavric; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you tell us when you were born, please?

25 A. On the 6th of May, 1933.

Page 9112

1 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you just a couple questions now about

2 the interview you gave to investigators in 2003 and also the statement

3 which you signed in my office yesterday.

4 Now, first of all, in my office earlier this week did you read the

5 report of your 19th of January, 2003, ICTY interview in your own language?

6 Do you remember doing that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And yesterday, in the morning, do you remember signing a brief

9 statement in which you formalised and stated that you had reviewed the

10 report of your earlier interview and in which you wrote down some

11 corrections to that earlier interview? Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, other than those five corrections you made, which are in the

14 statement, can you attest that the report of your ICTY interview and the

15 witness statement you signed yesterday morning, both accurately reflect

16 what you stated?

17 A. Yes, fully.

18 Q. Thank you. And can you also confirm that your answers would be

19 the same if you were asked the same questions today here in court?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. I'll now read a brief summary, and so this is not a

22 question for you.

23 In July 1995 Dr. Gavric was Director of the Zvornik Medical

24 Centre. At this time the Chief Medical Officer of the VRS was Dr. Ratko

25 Rokvic, who was based at the HQ in Han Pijesak.

Page 9113

1 Dr. Rokvic was a schoolmate, had been a schoolmate of Dr. Gavric,

2 and they still knew each other in 1995 and would sometimes speak on the

3 telephone.

4 During the period from 11 to 15 July, 1995, there were no Muslims

5 hospitalised in the Zvornik Hospital, then Dr. Gavric received an order

6 from Dr. Rokvic. The order was to go to the Milici Hospital and have the

7 wounded Muslim patients there transferred to the Zvornik Hospital. And

8 Dr. Gavric cannot recall for sure whether this was a verbal or a written

9 order.

10 Dr. Gavric went to the Milici Hospital with a nurse. The driver

11 of the vehicle was a person in uniform, a military uniform, and a police

12 officer was also present on this trip.

13 There were between ten and 15 wounded Muslim men at the Milici

14 Hospital. Three or four of whom were heavily or severely wounded. The

15 names of these patients were contained on a list which was given to

16 Dr. Gavric. Dr. Gavric introduced himself to the patients at Milici

17 Hospital and they -- because they seemed to be afraid.

18 All of these Muslim patients were then transferred to Zvornik

19 Hospital, and each patient carried a copy of his medical records with him.

20 Unfortunately, the vehicle ran out of fuel on the way from Milici to

21 Zvornik, which caused a delay. When he arrived at Zvornik, Dr. Gavric

22 transferred the patients into the care of Dr. Zoran Lazarevic.

23 At this time some civilians and some patients began to protest and

24 were upset about the admission of Muslim patients into the Zvornik

25 Hospital.

Page 9114

1 Dr. Gavric, after he transferred the patients into the care of

2 Dr. Lazarevic, never saw these patients again and he later heard that they

3 were taken away during the night to Tuzla.

4 That concludes the summary.

5 Dr. Gavric, I have just a few questions for you. First, was that

6 summary correct, of what you have stated in your previous statements?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. My first question is, if could you tell us to the best

9 of your recollection what date it was when you went to pick up the Muslim

10 patients from Milici to bring them to the Zvornik Hospital?

11 A. Right now I can't remember the exact date or, rather, day of the

12 week. And as for the date, it was mid-June. I can't remember either the

13 day or the date. I assume, however, it was during the week, not on the

14 weekend, but I'm not fully certain.

15 Q. Just to be clear, are you speaking of June or July?

16 A. July, July.

17 Q. Now, what kind of vehicle was it that you took to transport these

18 wounded Muslim patients?

19 A. The information that I received that a group of patients needed to

20 be transferred from the Milici Hospital to our hospital in Zvornik

21 indicated that they were patients who couldn't walk on their own. As a

22 result, we found a bus that had been adjusted to transport patients who

23 were lying. Thus, one could place stretchers with patients on them, with

24 the wounded on them, into that bus and transport them in that way. And in

25 addition to that, there were also seats for those who could sit.

Page 9115

1 Q. Thank you. And can you just tell me approximately how long the

2 journey from Milici to Zvornik lasted? If you can tell us when you left

3 Milici and when you arrived at Zvornik with the patients?

4 A. We arrived in Milici sometime around noon; 12.00 or 1.00. It took

5 us some time to take over the patients, that lasted for perhaps an hour.

6 I spoke to some people there, some of the colleagues, informed myself

7 about what was going on. I was told that all of the wounded had been

8 treated, medically treated, that they were all receiving therapy, medical

9 therapy, and that each of them carried their own medical history.

10 As far as I can remember, I only carried the list of the wounded

11 with their names and no other information. And this could have lasted for

12 about an hour, that entire procedure.

13 Q. Thank you. And when did you arrive back in Zvornik?

14 A. Yes, we set out from Milici. It was a warm, sunny day. Then

15 halfway to Zvornik we ran out of fuel. Our bus ran out of fuel. So we

16 had to stay there and wait for somebody to come with the fuel. However,

17 since during that period of time the traffic between Milici and Zvornik

18 was basically non-existent, and we couldn't expect anyone to bring fuel on

19 foot to us, we managed to get some fuel from a nearby inn. We could have

20 lost an hour there on the road, and we arrived in Zvornik towards the

21 evening. I don't remember exactly the time, but it was before the sun

22 set.

23 So this trip, due to these circumstances, was -- lasted longer

24 than normal.

25 Q. And after -- after transferring the patients to the care of

Page 9116

1 Dr. Lazarevic, did you ever ask about what had happened to the patients or

2 where they had gone? Did you ever ask anybody that?

3 A. Yes, since I completed that task, and it was after business hours

4 at that point, I typically didn't have to do night shifts. I normally

5 spent nights in my apartment.

6 The next day, when I arrived at work, I inquired whether all of

7 the wounded were alive, because, based on what I could see among them,

8 there were several seriously ill patients. I was told that all of them

9 survived that night and that they were evacuated to Tuzla in order to be

10 exchanged.

11 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you now -- a different topic, if you can

12 answer briefly.

13 Do you recall whether there were -- during the war, were there

14 ever any Muslim children treated in the Zvornik Hospital?

15 A. I remember that at the paediatric ward we had a boy who was

16 between seven and nine years old. This boy was hospitalised at the

17 paediatric ward for a longer period of time, a couple of months, if I

18 remember correctly. During that period of time we attempted to find a way

19 to reunite the boy with his family. I think we attempted to do that

20 through the International Red Cross. But we didn't manage, as far as I

21 remember.

22 Q. I think this is my last question, probably. But to the best of

23 your memory, it was a long time ago, what time period was it that that

24 little boy you have just described was in the paediatric ward?

25 A. I assumed office there in June of 1993. And I think that already

Page 9124

1 Q. And then you will see.

2 A. I'm sorry, my glasses are not the best. Yes, yes, I see that this

3 is Dr. Davidovic. He is head of the -- or the director of the hospital in

4 Milici. And this was based on the above order, so...

5 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I have no

7 further questions for this witness.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

9 I have on the list remaining the Miletic and the Pandurevic

10 Defence teams.

11 Madam Fauveau for General Miletic.

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We won't have any questions for this

13 witness, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

15 And Mr. Haynes or Mr. Sarapa.

16 MR. SARAPA: Yes, just a few questions.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Dr. Gavric. Earlier you said that it

19 was the procedure that patients from the Milici Hospital, which was

20 smaller, if there was no room, they would come to the Zvornik Hospital

21 which was bigger. Can you tell us, if you remember, that day when you

22 came to collect the wounded to bring them from Milici to Zvornik, do you

23 remember if the Milici Hospital was full?

24 A. I didn't have the opportunity, and I didn't really pay attention

25 to the actual part where the patients were. I just came to the director's

Page 9125

1 office, that was Dr. Davidovic. I don't remember seeing him actually on

2 that occasion, but one of the colleagues gave me the list. I don't recall

3 meeting Dr. Davidovic at that time. But I know, from previous visits,

4 that the hospital didn't have many rooms and beds to accommodate surgery

5 patients. And it was logical to me, in a way, for those 15 wounded to be

6 admitted to a larger facility.

7 Q. Thank you. In your view, and because you have many years of

8 experience in the medical profession, would you agree with the claim that

9 arises from what you yourself have said, that is that their condition was

10 the reason why they were being transferred to a larger hospital?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When they came to the Zvornik Hospital you said, when they were

13 being brought out from the buses that came from Milici to Zvornik, that

14 people were interested who was in the buses and that there were certain

15 protests. You also mentioned that the surgical ward was full and that

16 they were put on the -- accommodated at the gynaecology ward which is not

17 really so great. Would you agree that the reason why they were

18 transported from the Zvornik Hospital to the Standard medical facility was

19 precisely that reason, as well as this was done for their personal safety

20 reasons?

21 A. I think both reasons could be valid. At the infirmary, there were

22 certain capacities for a certain number of patients. There was a certain

23 number of beds. And I know that certain wounded persons were treated

24 there at the infirmary. But I didn't get information that they were

25 transferred to the infirmary. I didn't get that information. I was told

Page 9126

1 that they had been evacuated and, from what I can recall, I was not told

2 that they were transferred to the infirmary.

3 Q. And do you believe that their personal safety would be better

4 guaranteed at the infirmary rather than at the hospital in view of the

5 situation that was there?

6 A. Yes, because of the situation, yes. Although your remark that the

7 gynaecological ward was not -- we had more than 10 beds there that were

8 empty in the gynaecological ward at the time. And the conditions there

9 for treatment are very good. I believe that, for security reasons, this

10 was a much better move.

11 Q. This has been confirmed to a degree, but we would like to know

12 that for certain. And so could you please tell us, the people, that part

13 of the wounded who were taken from the hospital to the Zvornik Brigade

14 infirmary that was close by, did they receive, in your opinion, in your

15 knowledge, and according to the adequate treatment that was available

16 there, did they receive adequate medical care?

17 A. We tried in any case --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

19 Mr. Nicholls.

20 MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated].

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated] Thank you. The witness

23 has just stated that he wasn't told that they were taken to the infirmary.

24 He was just told that they were evacuated and he doesn't know that they

25 were taken to the infirmary. So I don't think the question is proper,

Page 9127

1 putting to the witness now that you've told us that they were taken to the

2 infirmary, how were they treated there.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me confer.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Problem as Mr. Nicholls sees it, and I'm waiting for

6 feedback from my colleagues is that if you look at line 2 on page 27, and

7 line 3, the witness in reply to a previous question said, "But I didn't

8 get information that they were transferred to the infirmary."

9 The objection now is, or the point raised now is that you are

10 putting to the witness, as a fact, that these wounded persons were taken

11 from the hospital to the Zvornik Brigade infirmary. And that is being

12 object --

13 MR. NICHOLLS: And also, sorry, that the specific question is, did

14 they receive adequate medical care at the -- which he -- he has said he

15 doesn't have a basis for.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps you can either drop the question or

17 rephrase it.

18 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] My intention was to ask Dr. Gavric,

19 in view of the fact that they were taken away, he doesn't know, this is

20 in -- beyond dispute. And in the previous answer he said that they could

21 receive adequate medical protection at the ambulatory facility. So

22 specifically referring to these wounded, if they were taken, and they were

23 taken there, we know that, it's a fact they were taken there, could they

24 have received proper medical treatment. I'm not asking for his

25 confirmation that they were taken there.

Page 9128

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, the question is being rephrased.

2 It's being put to you, Dr. Gavric, if these persons were indeed

3 transferred to the infirmary, would -- would it have been likely or

4 possible for them to receive proper treatment in that infirmary? And

5 that's if you know, I mean, if you're familiar with the infirmary and the

6 kind of treatment that could be provided there.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the infirmary it was possible to

8 treat and to administer therapy for those patients who had been previously

9 surgically treated before. It was not possible to conduct surgeries or

10 any kind of more serious treatment at the infirmary, but it was possible

11 to continue therapy that was started before. The equipment was fairly

12 good and the staff should have been at the appropriate level. When I am

13 talking about -- I'm talking about doctors, specialists.

14 Again, I would like to repeat, it was not possible for them to

15 receive more complicated treatment, but to continue treatment, it was

16 possible, that was the purpose of the infirmary. It was meant for those

17 who had already been primarily treated to receive further or additional

18 treatment there at the infirmary.

19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And my next question: Dr. Gavric, do you know if specialists and

21 nurses from your institution went to the Standard infirmary to give

22 medical assistance there to the wounded, injured, to the sick at the

23 infirmary?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know about other cases, other than these wounded that we

Page 9129

1 were talking about, if any other Muslim wounded persons were brought to

2 your hospital to receive medical treatment?

3 A. I really cannot be sure about that, but we were very busy at the

4 time, and all those who came received treatment, so I couldn't really say

5 what numbers we're talking about when and so on, but all wounded that

6 happened to find themselves in our region received treatment there and,

7 from what I can recall, there were no objections or any problems in that

8 sense.

9 Q. And was the treatment the same, regardless of their ethnicity?

10 A. Yes, yes, it was the same. I state that because I gave treatment

11 myself the whole time and I never differentiated on the basis of things

12 like that when patients were concerned.

13 Q. And was this true both of civilians and soldiers?

14 A. Yes. Perhaps the wounded had priority in relation to civilians,

15 and of course triage was made, which in those conditions of war is

16 absolutely essential. But there was no difference made as far as

17 treatment was concerned.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa. That brings to an end the

22 cross-examination.

23 Is there re-examination, Mr. Nicholls?

24 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We have no further questions for you, Doctor, which

Page 9130

1 means that, as I anticipated earlier on, your testimony ends here. You're

2 free to go back home. Our staff will assist you. But before you leave

3 this courtroom, I would like to, on behalf of the Trial Chamber, thank you

4 for having come over to give testimony, and also wish you a safe journey

5 back home.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Exhibits. Mr. Nicholls.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Just P02482 and P02482B, which is the 92 ter

10 statement.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? I hear no objections. So these

12 are -- two documents are admitted.

13 Exhibits from the Defence teams. I understand that the Gvero

14 Defence team would like to tender a document.

15 MR. JOSSE: We would, Your Honour. The one that Mr. Krgovic put

16 to the witness, which I think is 6DP01888.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's correct. Any objections?

18 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So this document, what is -- exhibit is also

20 admitted. And I think we can close this chapter and move to the next

21 witness. Again, I just want to check that there are no protective

22 measures in place.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being suggested that we have the break now. I

25 think that's fit and proper. We'll have 25 minutes' break now and we'll

Page 9131

1 start with the new witness afterwards. Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Dr. Begovic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to

8 start giving evidence. Before you do so, you are required by our Rules to

9 make a solemn declaration that you will testify the truth. The text is

10 being handed to you now. Please stand up, read it out aloud, and that

11 will be your commitment with us that you will be testifying the truth.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

14 WITNESS: ZORAN BEGOVIC

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.

17 Doctor, Mr. Vanderpuye will go first for the Prosecution, and he

18 will then be followed by some of the Defence teams on cross-examination.

19 Mr. Vanderpuye.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

21 Honours. Good morning, counsel.

22 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

23 Q. Good morning, Doctor.

24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honour, this is a 92 ter witness, so I

25 intend to follow the procedure set forth in relation to that.

Page 9132

1 Q. Doctor, do you recall having given a statement to the Office of

2 the Prosecutor which you signed and acknowledged on the 2nd of April,

3 2003?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And was the statement that you gave at that time a truthful

6 statement?

7 A. The statement was truthful, but two days ago I had some

8 corrections to make because it wasn't fully consistent with what I stated

9 three years ago. At the time, when the gentleman interviewed me, since

10 the statement was in English and not in Serbian, it was read out to me and

11 I did have certain corrections then to make, and then two days ago when

12 the statement was read out to me, I could see that it wasn't written down

13 exactly as I had stated things three years ago.

14 Thus, I had some corrections to make, and two days ago, we

15 clarified that.

16 Q. All right. So --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, before you continue, perhaps you can ask him

18 for his name and surname.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, okay. Excuse me.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, except that I addressed him as

21 Dr. Begovic.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Just for the record, could you please state your first and last

24 name?

25 A. Zoran Begovic.

Page 9133

1 Q. Thank you. I think we were just talking about some of the

2 corrections that you made with respect to the statement, but before we

3 get --

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. -- but before we get to that, let me just ask you, when you read

6 your statement recently, before testifying here today, did you read that

7 in your own language?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Did you have it read back to you?

10 A. The lady who was an interpreter in 2003 read it out to me in

11 Serbian.

12 Q. Okay. Just recently, a couple of days ago, did you have an

13 opportunity to read the statement?

14 A. No. I read it for the first time two days ago.

15 Q. Okay. And when you read the statement two days ago, did you read

16 it in your own language?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And after having read the statement in your own language, did you

19 bring these corrections that you have just spoken about to my attention?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. All right. Now, with respect to those corrections, I'd just like

22 to clarify what they are for the record.

23 With respect to paragraph 8 where it -- and that's for the benefit

24 of the Court, where it says, or indicates that a Major Obrenovic told you

25 that the exchange of the wounded people was pursuant to an order of the

Page 9134

1 Main Staff and General Mladic, would it be accurate to say that

2 Major Obrenovic never actually mentioned that it was -- that the exchange

3 was pursuant to an order of the Main Staff or General Mladic?

4 A. First of all, the day before the order arrived, Mr. Obrenovic

5 addressed me at the infirmary where other members of the medical corps

6 were. He addressed me with the following words: He said, "The wounded

7 arrived. They will stay here for a couple of days until they are

8 exchanged in Bijeljina. Until that time, they should come to no harm.

9 You must take very good care of them. A surgeon will come from Zvornik

10 specifically to treat them."

11 Q. If I could stop you there. I just want to focus on this

12 statement. We'll get to the substance of what he told you a little bit

13 later, but did he mention an order or not?

14 A. No. The order did not arrive until the following day.

15 Q. Okay. With respect to paragraph 9, where it says in effect that

16 you were informed by a nurse that the wounded had been taken away at 5.00

17 a.m. Would it be more accurate to say that you weren't informed by any

18 particular nurse, but you were informed by a number of people who were

19 aware of the circumstances concerning those wounded?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And would it also be fair to say that the conclusion that they

22 were taken away at around 5.00 a.m., that's contained in that paragraph,

23 was not something that was actually told to you, but something that you

24 yourself surmised?

25 A. That's correct. The gentleman asked me, since I arrived at around

Page 9135

1 6.00 at the barracks, the gentleman asked me what was my opinion about

2 when that could have happened. And I said, in my opinion, it could have

3 been between 4.00 and 5.00. But that's just my opinion.

4 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to paragraph 11 in the statement, where

5 it says that you received the information from the nurse about the

6 prisoners, and that they were taken away without medical supervision. Is

7 that basically the same correction that you weren't -- you didn't receive

8 that information from any particular nurse? Would that be a more accurate

9 reflection of what you said?

10 A. It wasn't a nurse who told me that they had been taken away at

11 5.00, because it was said at 6.00 when some preparations were made, and

12 among others, there were also nurses there. That's how it was.

13 Q. And would it be fair to say that the reference in paragraph 11 to

14 the wounded being taken away without medical supervision, would it be more

15 accurate to say that, as far as you were aware, they were taken away

16 without any medical personnel, technicians or doctors, from the place

17 where you worked?

18 A. That's correct. None of the medical staff escorted them.

19 Q. And finally, with respect to paragraph 13, where the statement

20 indicates that you do not remember Colonel Pandurevic coming to the

21 medical centre in relation to the wounded people, would it be more

22 accurate to say that you do remember that, in fact, he did not come to the

23 medical centre in relation to those wounded people?

24 A. Mr. Pandurevic, at the time, and I said this three years ago, and

25 I will repeat it now. At the time, Mr. Pandurevic was not present in the

Page 9136

1 barracks at all. I saw Mr. Pandurevic for the first time after all of

2 these events, after they ended and when they passed through to Boljkovac.

3 So Mr. Pandurevic was not able to visit them because he wasn't present

4 there. At the time, Mr. Dragan Obrenovic substituted in for him.

5 Q. Okay. Now, other than these factual inaccuracies that we have

6 just gone through, which are a fair number, does the statement otherwise

7 accurately and -- does it accurately reflect what you said when you were

8 questioned in 2003, and does it accurately and fairly reflect what you

9 would say, were you to be examined here today?

10 A. You know what, in item number 1, where it says that I volunteered

11 to give information, that's not correct. I received notice, a policeman

12 came to the infirmary and gave me a notice to appear on the following day

13 at 3.00 to meet with the OTP investigators. So that was a correction I

14 wanted to make, and the gentleman didn't respond to it. And then there

15 were other things that didn't -- that weren't included into the statement.

16 It wasn't just those wounded, but after those wounded, there was another

17 group of four or five wounded who were treated and they went to be

18 exchanged in Bijeljina very soon thereafter.

19 However, that wasn't included in the statement, and I made that

20 correction back in Zvornik when the statement was read out it me.

21 However, it was never included in my statement.

22 Q. Okay. But as far as what's reflected in the actual statement,

23 other than what we've spoken about, is the statement accurate?

24 A. As it stands now, yes, and I stand by it.

25 Q. Okay. With the court's permission, I would tender the statement,

Page 9137

1 subject to the corrections as appear on the record. P02481 into evidence

2 pursuant to 92 ter.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. We'll come to that formally at a

4 later stage. Thank you.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have a very brief summary, although it seems as

6 though you have already heard it.

7 The witness was born in Sekovici in 1964 and in 1992 he began

8 working as a physician at Zvornik Hospital. Shortly after commencing work

9 at the hospital, the witness was transferred to Kozluk medical centre

10 where he remained until his mobilisation to the VRS in mid-1994.

11 On the day of his mobilisation, the witness reported to the

12 medical centre of the Zvornik Brigade at Standard in Zvornik. As chief of

13 the medical centre, the witness was responsible for the provision to

14 Zvornik Brigade soldiers of medical services and reported to the officer

15 in charge of rear services which at some point became Captain Sreten

16 Milosevic. The director of the hospital was Jugoslav Gavric.

17 In July 1995, without any prior notification to the medical

18 centre, approximately 10 to 15 wounded prisoners arrived at the Standard

19 barracks from Zvornik Hospital. The prisoners had received some apparent

20 treatment prior to their arrival and were registered with the medical

21 centre after their arrival.

22 Either the day the prisoners arrived or the following day, Major

23 Obrenovic informed a number of the medical team that they were, that is

24 the -- the wounded were to be transferred to Bijeljina. The witness read

25 a fax to this effect the next day which further called for the prisoners

Page 9138

1 to be given "special care" because they were to be exchanged. Throughout

2 the prisoners' stay, a different physician from Zvornik Hospital came to

3 the Zvornik Brigade medical centre to change their bandages.

4 About five days after their arrival, the witness was informed that

5 the prisoners had been removed from the Standard. An MP later confirmed

6 that they had been taken away by bus. Though the witness did not know

7 what happened to the prisoners, he made no official complaint, believing

8 that their removal had been for the purposes of which he had been

9 previously informed.

10 That concludes my 92 ter statement and I would like to put to the

11 witness a few questions if I may.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. Go ahead.

13 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

14 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I just have one question

15 that I -- at this point in time, because we have a summary that is being

16 read out, and it appears to me that there are some differences between the

17 summary and the corrections that were just brought by the witness to his

18 statement. I note in particular -- I'm trying to stop the page here, on

19 page 38 at lines 16 to 18, the summary read by my colleagues says, "In

20 July 1995, without any prior notification to the medical centre, some

21 people arrived at Standard barracks from Zvornik Hospital."

22 Now -- when the witness was reading -- was making corrections to

23 his statement, and I'm looking here, I'm looking at page 35, lines 6 and

24 subsequent lines. First of all, the day before the order arrived,

25 Mr. Obrenovic addressed me at the infirmary where other members of the

Page 9139

1 medical corps were. He addressed me with the following words: "The

2 wounded arrived. They will stay here for a couple of days".

3 So I understand from this that there was some kind of prior

4 warning by Major Obrenovic and the summary doesn't say that. I would just

5 like to get some clarification either from the witness or from my

6 colleague.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I can clarify that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You can do that, but on the other hand, also, the

9 witness said that -- I leave it in your hands. But I think it needs some

10 clarification.

11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think the following will perhaps satisfy my

12 colleague, is that the witness had indicated that Major Obrenovic came

13 before the order and the order was a faxed order which is what is

14 indicated in the statement itself. And the statement itself, at paragraph

15 7 says, specifically, "These people arrived without me being informed" and

16 it also says, "These people were brought to us but I never had prior

17 discussion with anyone from the hospital or the command of Zvornik Brigade

18 regarding these wounded people."

19 And so there is a distinction being drawn between when the order

20 arrived versus when the people arrived. And I think that's probably the

21 source of the confusion. I don't know if that satisfies my colleague. I

22 can certainly put it to the witness if the Court needs further

23 clarification.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I would prefer if you put it to the witness

25 rather than making a statement yourself.

Page 9140

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm just pointing out what's in the record, I

2 think.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest that having already told you that it needs

4 some clarification, that you put the same problem --

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: No problem.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- matter to the witness. Thank you.

7 MR. VANDERPUYE:

8 Q. You have heard the concerns of the Court and also my colleague,

9 Mr. Bourgon, concerning when it is that -- well, first of all, whether or

10 not you received any prior notice as to the arrival of these wounded

11 people. Could you just explain to the Court or tell the Court if that's,

12 in fact, the case?

13 A. I wasn't informed about any arrival of the wounded. They appeared

14 all of a sudden, escorted by some soldiers. They appeared in the

15 infirmary. Not all of them were brought in, some perhaps two or three.

16 Then those who escorted them said these are the prisoners, the wounded,

17 they're going to be exchanged in Bijeljina. So we took them out of that

18 room where we were working. So I didn't understand because they brought

19 them in and then they said these people are going to be exchanged in

20 Bijeljina.

21 Then after a couple of hours, we saw that these people had not

22 been taken to exchange but were rather put in a place that was secured by

23 military policemen. And then after that, Mr. Dragan Obrenovic came and

24 told me what I told you earlier. I wasn't informed about any arrival of

25 these people. I wasn't informed that they would come to the barracks.

Page 9141

1 Q. Just so that the record is, I think, clear, are you saying

2 essentially that you became aware of the presence of the wounded people

3 before you saw Major Obrenovic?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And are you also saying that you became aware of the written fax

6 order after you saw Major Obrenovic?

7 A. That's correct. That was on the following day.

8 Q. Okay. All right. Is that -- is that satisfactory for my

9 colleague?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon? Okay. Yes, he seems to be happy

11 for once. Let's proceed.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Okay. You have indicated that these -- these individuals were

14 brought to a specific area where you were working. First of all, let me

15 just ask you, if you can recall, about what date that was.

16 A. I wouldn't be able to remember the date. I know it was July. It

17 was summertime. As for the date, I don't know, and I don't know the day

18 of the week either.

19 Q. Okay. Fair to say you were working that day, right? You were on

20 duty?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. Okay. And you were in a specific area of the hospital, you've

23 indicated. Could you just tell us where that was?

24 A. That wasn't the hospital, that was the barracks that had an

25 infirmary. Well, how should I explain this? There are several

Page 9142

1 entrances. So the first entrances when you enter the compound of the

2 Standard factory, and then immediately to the right, some 20, 30 metres,

3 was the infirmary and the kitchen was across from the infirmary. And then

4 some 10 to 15 metres away from us were the premises of the military police

5 and that one room where they stayed. So there was that portion of the

6 compound.

7 At the floor above, we had a clinic with some beds. And then

8 there was a large bathroom between us and the police. I think that, to

9 the right, as you entered, there was a large bathroom and that was it.

10 Q. And you indicated that they were brought in by a number of

11 soldiers. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to where they were taken, after they were

14 brought to that room, did you have any discussion with anybody concerning

15 where they should be placed or where they would be placed?

16 A. When Mr. Dragan Obrenovic came, then he started talking. He said

17 that they would be accommodated there, that that was the safest place for

18 them, that they would be secured by the military police and that was the

19 only room where they could have been accommodated, but because everything

20 else was full and I guess for their personal safety, it was a good idea to

21 have police nearby. I guess that was the idea, but I don't know.

22 Q. Okay. And so from the area where you worked, they were taken to

23 another room; is that right?

24 A. Yes, correct.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you to make any special

Page 9143

1 accommodation, move things or make an arrangement in order to have those

2 people placed in that room?

3 A. No, nothing was moved. There were pallets there, and then boards

4 and then mattresses were placed on top of that. Soft mattresses. So it

5 was a room of, I don't know the square footage of it. Normally, people

6 who were trouble-makers in units were taken to that room. Either they

7 were excessively drinking or abandoning their posts and normally they were

8 brought to that room and military police was there to guard them.

9 Q. Now, with respect to these particular individuals, did you discuss

10 with Major Obrenovic the circumstances as to how they would be secured or

11 where they would be secured?

12 A. Most likely he had arranged that with the military police. What

13 he told me was that they needed to be under strict care and observation in

14 terms of their treatment: bandaging, dressing the wounds, giving them

15 medication and so on. I was told to take very good care of them in the

16 medical sense. As for their personal safety, I guess it was arranged with

17 the military police.

18 We received our instructions in writing on the following day about

19 how to take care of the wounded.

20 Q. Did you discuss with Major Obrenovic who would be taking care of

21 the prisoners, whether it would be doctors from the Standard or doctors

22 from the hospital, Zvornik Hospital?

23 A. Mr. Obrenovic told me on that same day, when he came to tell me

24 that, that it had already been arranged, I guess, with the director of the

25 Zvornik medical centre, about the surgeons who would be coming every day

Page 9144

1 to treat the wounded. He said that they would only be treating those

2 wounded, and not other wounded who were members of the army of Republika

3 Srpska and who were only lightly wounded and who were staying at the

4 clinic, which was on the floor above. But these surgeons from the

5 hospital came exclusively to treat these wounded.

6 Q. Okay. Now, did you discuss with Major Obrenovic whether or not

7 these wounded should be registered at the Standard?

8 A. Yes. On that same day, when Mr. Obrenovic came and said what he

9 said, he also said that the surgeons from the Zvornik medical centre would

10 be coming, so I told them -- told him that I would start medical charts

11 for them, with their daily body temperature taken and so on, their

12 diagnosis would be entered into that chart and so on. And then I asked

13 Mr. Obrenovic whether I should also register them in the logbook, and he

14 said no, that wasn't necessary, just those charts would be sufficient.

15 Then I proposed to Mr. Obrenovic, and he agreed, that once these

16 people are taken to be exchanged to Bijeljina, then these medical charts

17 should accompany them, so that the doctors who received them at the other

18 end, after the exchange, would know exactly what kind of treatment they

19 had received because it would make their job easier, and Mr. Obrenovic

20 agreed.

21 Q. Now, with respect to the creation of these charts, did you -- did

22 you do that with respect to each one of the wounded?

23 A. We started these medical charts or temperature charts for each of

24 the wounded and we kept it in a file. We typically had this for all

25 members of the Zvornik Brigade who were wounded. In the morning, when

Page 9145

1 doctors were doing their morning rounds, they would look at the chart and,

2 you know, decide whether the wound needed to be dressed again, what kind

3 of treatment they needed to receive on that day, and then the chart would

4 be put back into the file until the following day. And the rules were

5 such that we made rounds several times during the day, provide water,

6 cigarettes, whatever we could give them we did. And as for treating the

7 wounds, it was done by surgeons.

8 Q. Now, with respect to the charts that you created, they contained

9 typical medical information, such as the temperature of the patient, blood

10 pressure, medication, age, date of birth, and name of the patient. Is

11 that -- is that basically what information they contained?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to the treatment that the wounded

14 actually received, you have indicated that that was administered by

15 doctors or surgeons from the Zvornik Hospital. Is that right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And with respect to the entries that they made on these medical

18 charts, did that involve your staff in any way? Did they have to go to

19 your staff in order to get access to those charts?

20 A. Well, yes. As soon as the surgeon would appear in the morning, a

21 nurse would take out charts, that was the rule. So she would take out

22 these charts with temperatures and all other information, hand them to the

23 surgeon, and the surgeon would call them in one by one, check their

24 wounds, dress them, prescribe further therapy and then the next patient

25 would come in.

Page 9146

1 I can't remember when they typically came, but I think it was

2 early, at about 8.00 in the morning.

3 Q. And did you have occasion to -- to yourself look at some of these

4 medical charts from time to time?

5 A. Well, yes. It was all on a table. And naturally we commented

6 upon them with surgeons. I personally was interested in surgery, so I

7 followed closely what surgeons did. So there were some parameters on that

8 chart, diagnosis, bandages, that was it.

9 Q. And can you tell the Court in general the type of condition these

10 wounded were in when you received them at the Standard?

11 A. As for the types of wounds, those were not life-threatening

12 wounds. Normally those were wounds created by shrapnels on lower

13 extremities. What I remember is that one of them did not have an arm

14 below his elbow, and the other one did not have a leg before the knee.

15 They were properly treated. I remember the man without the leg. I

16 remember his last name. I don't remember his first name but I remember

17 his last name because it was the same as mine, Begovic.

18 Q. And with respect to that individual, you have indicated that he

19 had a -- that he was without a leg. Was that the result of -- did it

20 appear to you that that was the result of an amputation or some kind of

21 treatment in relation to an injury?

22 A. Yes. An amputation was done, and one could see that it was

23 properly sutured. The amputation was done. I don't know whether it was

24 done in Zvornik or elsewhere, but that's how he was brought to us. He had

25 bandages on his leg, he did not have anything below his knee. And as for

Page 9147

1 the other wounded, mostly shrapnels, shrapnel wounds on their legs, some

2 of them had stomach injuries but none of them had life-threatening wounds.

3 Q. You have indicated also that at some point you became aware that

4 the wounded had been removed from the centre. And just to get an idea in

5 terms of time, can you approximate when this was in relation to when they

6 arrived? How many days?

7 A. You mean how many days they spent with us? Well, they were there

8 between five to seven days, as is stated there. I can't remember whether

9 it was five or seven, but it was approximately that period of time.

10 Q. Now, following their removal, can you tell us whether or not the

11 medical charts that you created went with them?

12 A. No, the medical charts stayed with the rest of the patient files

13 where the files of the soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade were kept. The

14 lists were not sent off with them, no.

15 Q. And with respect to the medical papers -- well, let me rephrase

16 that.

17 Did you see that they arrived with medical papers from any -- any

18 other place, any other hospital or any other facility?

19 A. I can recall that when they were brought, first they were in

20 Milici, then in Zvornik, then they were brought to us. And from what I

21 can remember, they had discharge papers. I don't know whether it was from

22 the Zvornik Hospital; there was also a hospital in Milici. They had these

23 small discharge papers and those papers were placed together with the

24 temperature charts. So based on those discharge papers, I was copying the

25 diagnosis from them into the temperature charts. And all of that was put

Page 9148

1 together in a list that was supposed to go with them when they went off

2 for exchange. There was supposed to be a medical escort also to go with

3 them, but nobody informed us that they were leaving, so the documents

4 stayed in a file together with the rest of the medical files.

5 Q. And when you say a medical escort, could you just tell us what you

6 mean by that? Do you mean a doctor or a technician or...

7 A. It was our custom and rule that the wounded who were sent to the

8 Zvornik medical centre would, along with the driver, be also escorted by a

9 medical technician. No patient could go to the medical centre who had

10 been with us at the infirmary, who had been admitted to the infirmary,

11 could not go to the medical centre without a -- an ambulance and a medical

12 escort. That's how it was.

13 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you've -- you've indicated that part of

14 what wasn't included in your statement referred to some other individuals

15 that were brought to the Standard. Is that right?

16 A. I didn't understand the question. You mean after the group, were

17 others brought in? Is that what you mean?

18 Q. Yes. And that's my question. Is that what you had indicated

19 wasn't in your statement?

20 A. Yes, I did say that. The group, when they were taken away, we

21 were not told where, but from the first day it was known that they were

22 going to Bijeljina for an exchange. So I don't know whether a day or two

23 or three days later, when we were working at the clinic, the door opened

24 suddenly and a man was brought in on a stretcher. He was carried in by

25 four people, and the fifth one was lying on the stretcher. They were all

Page 9149

1 Muslims, they were accompanied by a policeman or a soldier, I can't

2 remember which, and he was wounded in the belly. And I lifted his shirt,

3 he was wounded in the belly, and I cleaned the wound and I said that this

4 person has to go to Zvornik urgently, a surgeon needs to look at him

5 because I couldn't see how deep the wound was. But the people who brought

6 him in said, well, the bus is waiting, they urgently have to go to

7 Bijeljina for the exchange. So they lifted him up and I mean it didn't

8 take long, the whole thing took maybe some 10 minutes or so, not more than

9 that.

10 This was after that group -- so this group and the previous group

11 had nothing to do with each other. The other people were admitted, they

12 were treated and then they went for the exchange. I can't remember about

13 this other group, they just came in, I looked at the wound and they left

14 very quickly because they said the transport was waiting for them. The

15 gentleman who questioned me three years ago, I think I heard from him that

16 those people had been exchanged. I didn't know what their fate was and

17 that was the first time I heard about that. Three years ago, he asked if

18 I knew anything about them, and I said, I didn't. And then he said that

19 those people had been exchanged.

20 Q. Okay. Just so that we can clarify this a little bit on the

21 record, with respect to the first group and the second group, could you

22 tell us approximately how many individuals were involved in this first

23 group of people that were admitted and treated, et cetera? Approximately.

24 A. Between 10 and 14, perhaps 10, perhaps 14, perhaps 12. That's

25 about the size of the group approximately.

Page 9150

1 Q. In relation to the second group, can you tell us approximately how

2 many individuals were involved in relation to that incident?

3 A. This other group I think that they were five. Four people brought

4 in, they were carrying the stretcher, and there was the first person lying

5 on the stretcher. So five.

6 Q. Now, with respect to the second group, those individuals you

7 indicated were not admitted, weren't -- they weren't kept at the Standard

8 for any length of time, right?

9 A. They came in suddenly. The person was lying on the stretcher. We

10 don't know who he was. We could see they were Muslims. He was wounded in

11 the belly. The wound was dressed and he was given an IV. I didn't know

12 if any abdominal organs were damaged, so I told the person who was

13 escorting him that the person should be taken to the Zvornik Hospital, so

14 the surgeon can look at him. However, he said, transport is waiting for

15 them, they have to go to Bijeljina urgently, so they just picked him up

16 and that was it. It didn't take that long; 10 minutes at the most.

17 Q. Okay. So for this second group, did you create any charts or

18 records in relation to them containing their names and medical

19 information?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. We didn't make any charts or anything. It was very sudden, very

23 fast, and I dressed the wound. I put the IV in and then they just left.

24 We didn't take their first names or their last names. This is all I know.

25 Q. Okay. Now, even though you didn't take the names, were you ever

Page 9151

1 provided with their names by anybody in relation to either their arrival

2 or at some point after?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Doctor. I have no further

5 questions at this time.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

7 I've got several Defence teams wishing to cross-examine you,

8 Dr. Begovic, with the exception of the Borovcanin Defence team which still

9 needs to be confirmed.

10 Who wishes to go first? Mr. Zivanovic for Accused Popovic. Go

11 ahead.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Doctor.

15 A. Good day.

16 Q. I would like to ask you to tell me a couple of things relating to

17 the statement that you gave, this was on the 2nd of April, 2003. You said

18 that you were summoned by a policeman, that he brought the summons?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Was this summons in our language? We call it here our language

21 the B/C/S.

22 A. Yes, yes, it was on a piece of paper.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I suggest you slow down immediately, and

24 I think on previous occasions you had chosen to keep the headphones on so

25 that you could have an indication when the English interpretation was

Page 9152

1 over, and that helped a lot in keeping the momentum as it should be.

2 So, Witness, if possible, please, Dr. Begovic, if possible, please

3 allow a short pause between question and answer so that the interpreters

4 can carry out their job and finish translating to us. Thank you.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. These summons that are delivered by our authorities, they contain

7 a warning that you have to comply and turn up, otherwise you could be

8 fined or detained. Is that what the -- what was said in the summons too?

9 A. Yes, it was. And I was surprised when the summons was delivered.

10 It was written on the back, but also he told me too that I had to comply

11 with the summons.

12 Q. And when you did comply, did you understand that -- that you had

13 to comply, not only to come, but that you also had to provide a statement?

14 A. Well, I didn't know what would happen. I didn't know that a

15 statement would be involved. There was simply said that an investigator

16 from the Tribunal is coming, he needs to see something with you and you

17 should turn up at the appropriate time.

18 Q. Were you told that you can provide a statement, but that you do

19 not have to or did you understand that you were obliged to provide a

20 statement?

21 A. I wasn't told that. Simply the gentleman and the interpreter were

22 waiting for me in the room and the interview began.

23 Q. When you say this wasn't told to you, what you mean is that you

24 were not told that you had to give a statement?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 9153

1 Q. We have the date when the statement was taken, that's the 2nd of

2 April, 2003. I would like to ask you to tell me how long did the

3 interview last with the investigator?

4 A. I can't really tell you how long it took. It was for an hour and

5 a half or two for sure. I really cannot say how long it took, but that

6 was it, approximately.

7 Q. Can you tell me, after speaking with the investigator, there was a

8 written statement in English that was drafted?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. Did you ask to read it in your own language?

11 A. To tell you the truth, I did not. The lady that was interpreting

12 said, I'm now going to read back to you what you stated. And then as soon

13 as she started to read, I told her to stop and then I complained because

14 it said there that I had come voluntarily, but I had actually been

15 summoned. So that's when we stopped, because I didn't come voluntarily.

16 I had received a summons, but the gentleman said that was it. But that

17 wasn't it. I had received a summons and this was not corrected. And I

18 saw that here when I read it back two days ago.

19 Also, in several places, as she was reading, I would stop the lady

20 and make suggestions, but it stayed the way it was. I mean, look, I

21 apologise, I explained to the gentleman that this other group was there

22 too, which is very important, and a wounded man was brought in. It's not

23 there anywhere.

24 After this other group, it wasn't put in the statement. The

25 gentleman asked, What about Mr. Pandurevic? In the statement it says, I

Page 9154

1 think that Mr. Pandurevic did not visit the wounded. Well, he didn't

2 because he wasn't there. I told him that. And this wasn't taken down.

3 Why was it not taken down that Mr. Pandurevic wasn't there, I asked him.

4 I saw Mr. Pandurevic the first time after all that happened was already

5 done. The way it looks in the statement is that Mr. Pandurevic was there,

6 but he didn't visit them. But he wasn't actually there, and I said in the

7 statement.

8 Q. All right. So from this answer of yours, I can conclude that you

9 had several objections or remarks regarding the statement the way it was

10 read back to you but this was not taken into account?

11 A. I said the same things two days ago, and I thought that that would

12 be corrected on the basis of my remarks. I thought that that would be

13 corrected, but I see it's the same as it was two days ago. But I signed

14 it, yes, that is true.

15 Q. I would just like you to tell me, were you given any reasons why

16 they would not take into account the corrections?

17 A. This is right at the end. When it was read to me, it was signed,

18 it was read back, and I told the lady who was translating about that and I

19 saw that she asked him. I don't speak English, but I could see that she

20 talked to him.

21 Then, also at that time, I indicated at several places, I mean

22 immediately when she started to read, immediately at the start, I didn't

23 come there voluntarily. I had come because of the summons and that was

24 not corrected.

25 Q. In other words, the interpreter conveyed to the investigator your

Page 9155

1 remarks?

2 A. Yes, yes, yes. That is correct. I really didn't -- I really

3 thought...

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't like to be in the interpreter's shoes.

5 You are moving too fast. Please slow down. It's a matter of courtesy for

6 the interpreters who already have a very difficult job, and on whom we

7 need to rely. So please slow down.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And just one more question on this topic. You did not receive any

10 answer from the investigator regarding your remarks?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So since then, since the 6th of April, 2003, until a few days ago

13 when you arrived here, were you in contact with the investigators of the

14 Tribunal in that period?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you about this other group of

17 detainees that arrived, about which you said that they didn't stay long at

18 the infirmary or the clinic. Can you tell us approximately how much time

19 elapsed from when the first group left until the second group arrived?

20 A. A day or two. I cannot really remember exactly, but I think it

21 was within a day or two.

22 Q. And just one more question. It has to do with putting information

23 in about the first group of patients. You said that Obrenovic told you

24 not to register these patients in your logbooks.

25 A. I asked Obrenovic if we should put them in the logbooks and he

Page 9156

1 said the lists are sufficient and that was it. And when I told him that

2 we would be sending the lists together with them, the charts, at the

3 exchange, so that the doctors there can see how they were treated and what

4 sort of treatment they were administered, Mr. Obrenovic disagreed and he

5 said that that was sufficient, that we shouldn't do that.

6 Q. After this group left, were you in touch with Mr. Obrenovic?

7 A. I would see very little of Mr. Obrenovic. I saw him that day when

8 the order was conveyed to us, and then I didn't see him for a long time.

9 He was absent out in the field. There were very few of us at the barracks

10 at the time. I would see him, but very infrequently.

11 Q. My question is, after the group left, did you have the opportunity

12 of seeing him at all?

13 A. I did see him, but I don't know exactly when. You mean did I see

14 him the next day?

15 Q. No, I'm just asking in general, did you see him?

16 A. Yes, I would see him, but I don't know how much time had elapsed

17 since they left when I saw him.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You started moving fast again. Please slow down.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. My last question is, did you speak with him when you saw him

21 afterwards? Did you talk at all about this?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You did not?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 9161

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Bourgon.

2 Who wishes to go next? I have the Miletic, the Gvero and the

3 Pandurevic teams left.

4 Madam Fauveau.

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We won't have any questions for this

6 witness, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. And that was for General

8 Miletic.

9 Mr. Josse.

10 MR. JOSSE: The position is the same for General Gvero, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse.

13 So that leaves you, Mr. Haynes.

14 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

16 Q. Good morning, Dr. Begovic.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. You have mentioned that during the time you were working at the

19 Standard barracks your immediate commander was latterly Sreten Milosevic,

20 and initially Bosko Nikolic. Were they the only two commanders you had

21 during the time that you were at Standard?

22 A. As far as I can remember, Sreten Milosevic was replaced by

23 Major Jojic. That's how it was. He stayed there very briefly. I think

24 that was in late 1995.

25 Q. Thank you. So in the course of about 18 months, you had three

Page 9162

1 different commanding officers; is that right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And was that typical of the sort of turnover of command staff in

4 the Zvornik Brigade during that period?

5 A. I don't know if it was typical. That's how it was.

6 Q. Thank you. I'm not sure whether you've actually covered this, but

7 we'll go into it anyway. The facilities at the infirmary were perfectly

8 adequate for looking after the sort of wounded people that you had there

9 for that five or seven days, weren't they?

10 A. Well, it was an infirmary consisting of two rooms. We also had

11 the portion where the wounded members of the army of Republika Srpska were

12 in beds and that was up on the floor, and it was completely full.

13 Q. And did you have permanent staff available to care for these

14 people?

15 A. This was permanent staff. It's just that they worked in shifts.

16 They went home and the others came, but there was always somebody there.

17 Q. Just give us some idea. When you say there was always somebody

18 there, was there always a doctor there and always nursing staff?

19 A. There was always a doctor, always nurses, medical technicians.

20 When there was no combat, then male staff members would be there as well,

21 and when there was active combat, then there would be only female staff

22 there. There would always be a doctor, since we had three male doctors

23 and three female doctors, and there would always be nurses and there were

24 always two on each shift.

25 Q. Thank you very much. And the doctors that visited from the

Page 9163

1 Zvornik Hospital, did they come every morning during the time that the

2 prisoners you've talked about were there?

3 A. Every morning.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, can you tell us this: How far is it from the

5 Standard barracks at Karakaj to Bijeljina?

6 A. Well, Zvornik-Bijeljina is 56 kilometres, which means that there

7 is about 53 kilometres, thereabout, because Zvornik-Karakaj is two or

8 three kilometres, so I would say 53 kilometres.

9 Q. And how long would it take to transport people that sort of

10 distance?

11 A. About an hour.

12 Q. Thank you. So can we summarise the position as you understood it.

13 You were not expecting these prisoners to arrive; is that right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. They arrived with discharge certificates from other hospitals;

16 that's correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. They were registered and records were kept by you as to their

19 treatment throughout the whole time they were there; is that correct?

20 A. Records were kept by the surgeon who came, so the surgeon would

21 take the chart and the surgeon would look at the previous treatment

22 prescribed by another surgeon, you know, add, subtract, and we would

23 simply check that if we needed to assist with anything. However, these

24 wounded were in the exclusive care of surgeons.

25 Q. Thank you. And just to repeat, they were adequately cared for by

Page 9164

1 you and visited every day by staff from the hospital. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And your expectation was that they were going to be transported to

4 Batkovci which is in Bijeljina together with their records; is that

5 correct?

6 A. In Bijeljina, not in Batkovac. That's how it was stated

7 originally. Mr. Obrenovic said what I have already told you that they

8 were going to be exchanged in Bijeljina. I proposed to Obrenovic and he

9 agreed that when they set out to go for the exchange, their temperature

10 charts should accompany them so that the doctors on the other end, who

11 took them over would have an easier job. Mr. Obrenovic supported this and

12 that's where we left it off.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Now, just one thing whilst we're on the

14 subject of Mr. Obrenovic. You have talked about a fax that you saw and

15 the content of that fax. Were you able to see from the fax who it was

16 sent by?

17 A. I'm not sure whether the fax arrived from the Main Staff or from

18 the corps. I don't know. To this day I don't know that. I'm not sure

19 whether it arrived from the Main Staff or from the corps. And I don't

20 know whether it was signed by Mr. Mladic or somebody else. I had the fax

21 with the order, but to tell you the truth, I don't know whether it came

22 from the medical -- from the corps or from the Main Staff. But it was in

23 writing.

24 Q. So was it the content of that fax that gave you some idea as to

25 where it came from, if you don't know who it was from?

Page 9165

1 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to say, because faxes are generally

2 similar except for the signature. Roughly it was similar to what

3 Mr. Obrenovic said. Whatever Mr. Obrenovic said was written in the fax,

4 but I don't know who wrote it, I don't know if it came from the corps or

5 the Main Staff.

6 Q. So the position is this: You saw a fax which made it plain that

7 prisoners were to be exchanged and Major Obrenovic who was then in command

8 of the brigade told you that these prisoners were to be exchanged. Is

9 that right?

10 A. Correct. Mr. Obrenovic said on the day before, what you just

11 repeated. And then on the following day it arrived in writing. Again, I

12 don't know whether it came from the Main Staff or the corps. But whatever

13 Mr. Obrenovic said, it was said the day before the order which arrived by

14 fax.

15 Q. Did Mr. Obrenovic ever say anything to you about seeking guidance

16 from the corps or the Main Staff as to what was to be done with wounded

17 prisoners?

18 A. No. He said it to me the day before it arrived in writing. And

19 that's where it ended.

20 Q. Thank you very much. I just want to move on now, please, to the

21 second group that you referred to, the group of five. Were you at the

22 infirmary the day that that group arrived?

23 A. Yes. I was there, and another lady doctor.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were the doctors at the infirmary

Page 9166

1 at that point in time. The lady doctor's name is Danijela Lazic.

2 MR. HAYNES:

3 Q. Thank you, Doctor. Now, so far as that group of five were

4 concerned, were you aware whether any two of them were brothers?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were you aware whether any of that group of five left to go to

7 hospital and have an X-ray?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you aware whether that group of five were given food?

10 A. We had some bread there and we gave them cigarettes. I remember

11 that I had three or four packs of cigarettes. Since I am not a smoker

12 myself, I gave this to this young patient who was 20 something. I gave

13 all three or four packs to him and then we had some bread there and we

14 gave it to them. That's all we had.

15 Q. And is it your recollection that this group was there as long as

16 three hours, or not that long?

17 A. I know that they were at our infirmary for some 10 minutes,

18 perhaps more, perhaps less. The one who was on the stretchers was the

19 only one who was wounded. He was lying on the stretcher. His wound was

20 dressed, cleaned. He was given IV fluids. Then I said that the man who

21 was wounded had to be sent to Zvornik to be seen by a surgeon. However,

22 the person escorting them said they were in a hurry, there is a

23 transportation awaiting them to take them to Bijeljina. There was no time

24 to do that, and then they went.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor. I just wonder whether we could have

Page 9167

1 in e-court, please, 7D257. I apologise in advance, this is not a document

2 that has yet been translated.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. While we're waiting for

4 that, could I ask the Court could we stay briefly after the break, after

5 the witness leaves. There is a matter I need to bring up just briefly; I

6 just remembered it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is it in relation to the motion that you

8 have just filed?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to raise it up myself anyway.

11 Yes, I apologise to you, Mr. Haynes, for the interruption.

12 MR. HAYNES: Absolutely not.

13 Q. Doctor, I'm going to need your help now. This is a document which

14 is only in Serbian. I'm going direct you to a passage of it and I would

15 like you to read it out loud slowly so that the interpreters can interpret

16 it into English and French for us. Do you understand? Do you understand

17 what I'd like you to do?

18 A. No, I don't. I apologise.

19 Q. Okay. Well, what I'm going to do in a minute is I'm going to have

20 the usher bring this document up to a passage I would like you to read.

21 But I'd like you to read it out loud slowly so that the interpreters can

22 translate it into English and French for us. Do you understand that?

23 Could we bring the document --

24 A. I see right now or...

25 Q. No, I'll take you to the passage. Can it come up a little bit?

Page 9168

1 Can you go -- count up from the bottom, I think about 10 lines,

2 and can you see the sentence that begins, "Doveli su"?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's two lines above that that's where you

4 should go. Yeah.

5 MR. HAYNES: It's actually underlined the starting line. And

6 it -- it's about three quarters of the way along. The cursor is in the

7 right place.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

9 MR. HAYNES:

10 Q. Doctor, would you mind just reading from there to the bottom of

11 the page at quite a gentle pace, please.

12 A. Very well. "They brought them to the administration building of

13 engineering that -- which was a construction company."

14 Q. I think you can read a little faster than that, Doctor.

15 A. All right.

16 "They took them into some corridor. They searched them there.

17 They took from them shoelaces, belts, and took them to the boiler room, 11

18 of them. The two brothers were separated; they were wounded. (They were

19 wounded before they were arrested), one of the brothers was called Hasan,

20 they were from Osat. Later an investigator came and policemen (they had

21 white cross-belts and belts), and they gave their personal details one by

22 one. They did not mistreat them. They brought another 11 people from

23 Srebrenica, and they gave them food. They told them that the two who were

24 wounded went to see a doctor and that they should leave some food for

25 them. They didn't take them -- they didn't bring them to the boiler

Page 9169

1 room. And after three hours they took out prisoners who were tied. And

2 next to a truck (a truck of the former JNA with tarpaulin) they saw the

3 two wounded brothers. They were holding X-ray pictures. They had seen

4 the doctor. They took all of them to Batkovici with two police cars

5 escorting them."

6 Q. Thank you very much for your help, Doctor. Just two or three

7 things about that. The -- the "Inzinjering," can you see that word. I

8 can't say it very well, but it's on the far left-hand side, nine lines up.

9 Go to the left, please.

10 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.

11 Q. That's an area -- that's an area at the Standard barracks at

12 Karakaj, isn't it?

13 A. No. Inzinjering is a different company. It's not the same

14 company as Standard. It's a company that is further. Once you pass

15 Karakaj, you pass the Standard barracks and then some 300 or 400 metres

16 later you come to an overpass and then I think on the left is this company

17 called Inzinjering. Inzinjering and Standard are not the same companies.

18 Q. No, but the Inzinjering was never used as a military facility, was

19 it, in 1995?

20 A. As far as I know, no. Standard was used. The shoe factory, which

21 existed before the war. It was used as the barracks. As for Inzinjering,

22 I don't think it was.

23 Q. Thank you. And the only other thing is if you just read out to

24 yourself, we're talking here about a group of people who arrived at

25 Batkovci on the 24th of July, aren't we, if you look further up the

Page 9170

1 paragraph? Can you see on the letter there is a date that is circled?

2 A. It says the 24th of July, 1995, at about 1400 hours.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Now, the group that are described there with

4 the two wounded brothers, one of whom is called Hasan and who went off to

5 get an X-ray at hospital, that's not the same group of five you're talking

6 about, is it?

7 A. The one who was brought to the infirmary in the second group that

8 came did not have any X-rays on him.

9 Q. And you've already told us you weren't aware of any two of them

10 being brothers or going off to hospital.

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. And they certainly weren't there for three hours or so. Is that

13 right?

14 A. I told you they were there between five and 10 minutes. It all

15 happened very quickly. All I managed to do was to clean and dress the

16 wound and give him IV fluids. That's all I had the time to do, not more

17 than 10 minutes.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I just want to finish with one last thing.

19 Before you met an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, your

20 belief was that these 11 people who had been in your care at the infirmary

21 had all been sent to Bijeljina for exchange.

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. And in the years, in the 10 years between those events and when

24 you met an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, you heard

25 nothing from any source that caused you to think anything other than that,

Page 9171

1 did you?

2 A. Correct. I heard of them for the first time, the first group, and

3 the second group, when the gentleman interviewed me three years ago. I

4 truly didn't know anything.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes.

7 Is there re-examination?

8 Yes, Mr. Sarapa.

9 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Correction for the transcript in two

10 places, please. Page 66, line 20. The witness mentioned the name of the

11 doctor or, rather, the last name of the lady doctor, who was present with

12 him. So could we ask the witness to repeat that last name?

13 And then on page 70, line 24, the date was wrongly recorded as the

14 14th of July and it should be the 24th of July.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I can confirm that last one because I had

16 noticed it myself, but I didn't want to interrupt the witness.

17 As regards the other one, did you mention the name of the lady

18 doctor who was with you?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Danijela Lazic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa and thank you, Dr. Begovic.

21 Is there re-examination, Mr. Vanderpuye?

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, there's not, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Begovic, your testimony ends here. We haven't

24 got any questions for you. So you're free to go. You will receive all

25 the assistance you require from the staff of our Tribunal. On behalf of

Page 9175

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We will now have a 25-minute break. Thank you.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's process with the exhibits first.

14 Exhibits first, Mr. Vanderpuye.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We have only the

16 witness statement, P02481, to tender.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? We hear none. So admitted.

18 Defence teams, I think it was only the Pandurevic Defence team

19 that made use of a document.

20 MR. HAYNES: Yes, it's untranslated. It's 7D257. It's a report

21 of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency state commission for gathering

22 facts on war crimes. Can it be marked for identification at this stage?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Haynes.

24 Any objection.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no objection to having it marked for

Page 9176

1 identification, but I would like to see a translation of it and perhaps

2 reserve an objection to that extent if it is otherwise objectionable. I

3 can't tell from either the testimony or what I was able to see on the

4 screen.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not the normal practice that we resort to.

6 It will be marked for identification purposes pending translation. And

7 after which it will come into the record as an exhibit. I mean, if you

8 have any objections in relation to the admission proper, speak now.

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's just a bit difficult for me to articulate

10 because I don't know if it contains otherwise objectionable matter other

11 than what was referred to in the testimony. And I think the document

12 covers more material than what the witness was specifically directed to.

13 That's the only reason why I would ask to -- ask you to consider allowing

14 me to reserve the objection until I see the translation.

15 MR. HAYNES: I'm just going to say this: It comes from the EDS,

16 it's a Prosecution document. We served due notice that we were going to

17 use it in cross-examination. They should be able, with all the

18 interpreters and army of helpers they've got at their disposal, to voice

19 an objection now if they've got one.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: How many pages does that document contain?

21 MR. HAYNES: Page and a half.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Page and a half. And we've seen half of it.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want to blow this up, but the usual practice

25 that we have followed here is to mark it for identification pending

Page 9177

1 translation and then it will become a full exhibit. On the other hand --

2 even if one were to entertain objections here, and entertain objections

3 against the admission of the document, et cetera, part of it or the -- the

4 part which was of relevance to Mr. Haynes was read out and it's in the

5 record already.

6 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no problem with that. My only concern was

7 with respect to extraneous material. I'm perfectly fine following the

8 process. If I discover that there's something egregious in the document

9 later, I'll bring it to the attention of the Court. At this point, I will

10 withdraw the objection and proceed.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's admitted on that condition, marked for

12 identification pending translation.

13 Gentlemen and ladies, can I come back to you on the two pending

14 motions, one oral, one written, seeking protective measures for the next

15 two witnesses.

16 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we've all

18 basically met and discussed it and conferred with our learned friends at

19 the Prosecution. We don't really see that the rules have been followed

20 specifically, especially at the late stage, but we do not have an

21 objection to that request, if the witnesses feel there is some need and we

22 would defer to your better judgement on that, of course.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We want to know whether there is any objection from

24 any one of the other Defence teams. You seem to be speaking on behalf of

25 everyone. So we take it that there is no objection. Just one moment. I

Page 9178

1 need to confer again with my colleagues with whom I have discussed

2 already.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So our decision is as follows, and we are deciding

5 both motions, that relating to the next witness who is Witness 152, and

6 the other relating to Witness 155, the latter of which is the subject

7 matter of the written motion.

8 We have opted to go on an abundance of caution approach,

9 particularly basing ourselves on the fact that both parties are in

10 agreement that granting of protective measures in these two cases could be

11 appropriate, or may be appropriate. We would also, however, like to make

12 it clear that we are not saying anything beyond this. In particular, we

13 don't want this decision to serve later on as a precedent for granting

14 protective measures to others who may have similar or identical

15 conditions.

16 So the protective measures are a pseudonym and -- pseudonym and

17 face distortion. Even for the first witness that we are going to hear for

18 the first one, the one who will be entering the courtroom?

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would apply for it. But I would leave it

20 really in your discretion.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm asking you because since this is -- has not been

22 incorporated in a written document, Mr. McCloskey referred to -- and you,

23 to protective measures, but not identifying any. I mean, we take it that

24 pseudonym is -- is usual, normal. Yes.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Pseudonym and face distortion. We just -- because

Page 9179

1 of the problems related to voice, and given the history, I wouldn't ask

2 for that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So both motions are granted and I

4 wish to thank the members of the various Defence teams for their

5 cooperation. Thank you.

6 While we are waiting for the witness, you may have heard in the

7 course of last week and this week that there was an anticipated strike,

8 transport strike for Friday, this Friday. We've just received a

9 confirmation that although the strike is still on it will not affect the

10 transfer of our detainees to and from the Tribunal. Therefore, the

11 scheduled trials for Friday will go ahead as planned. So if anyone was

12 planning to stay working at home or in the office on Friday, now you need

13 to forget all about it.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to

18 start giving evidence, which will take some time. Before you start, you

19 need to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth.

20 Madam Registrar is giving you the text of it. Please read it out aloud

21 and that will be your commitment with us that you will testify the truth.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-162

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012