070323ED

Page 9281

1 Friday, 23 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, good morning, everybody. Madam Registrar, could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.

10 All the accused are here. I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes, and

11 that's about it.

12 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer, Mr. Vanderpuye.

13 We are, as you may have noticed, sitting without Judge Kwon today,

14 who couldn't be with us for personal reasons. So we are sitting -- we

15 will be resorting to Rule 15 bis, paragraph (A) and we are pursuant --

16 sitting pursuant to that provision.

17 I understand there are some preliminaries that you would like to

18 raise. I don't know exactly who. Then I have received the wrong

19 information. I was informed that there were going to be some

20 preliminaries. I mean, it could have been a misunderstanding, obviously.

21 MR. BOURGON: We can always arrange that, you know.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. But it was spoken too soon,

23 Mr. Bourgon.

24 Mr. Thayer.

25 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President.

Page 9282

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

2 MR. THAYER: The usual suspects all rise to our feet. As I think

3 everybody is aware, there was a sort of an emergency motion filed

4 yesterday to add three exhibits to the Prosecution's 65 ter exhibit list

5 with respect to one witness.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. In fact I was going to ask you when

7 that witness is due, is expected to come over.

8 MR. THAYER: I think, realistically, given the schedule, we're

9 looking at, and after consultation with various of my colleagues, probably

10 Tuesday or perhaps Wednesday, if the estimates continue to hold. I think

11 we have substantial cross-examination estimated for the next witness,

12 not -- not this current witness. And then we have another witness,

13 Witness number 48, who will follow that witness and then we have Witness

14 49 who is the subject of this motion.

15 One thing I did want to raise, and I thank the Chamber for giving

16 me the opportunity now, is after speaking with my learned friends,

17 particularly from the Gvero team, there was one correction I wanted to

18 make to the motion about which I alerted the team yesterday, immediately

19 upon its filing. It's a -- it's a question of fact, as represented in the

20 motion pertaining to the presence of the Accused Gvero at a meeting in

21 July 1995 with Generals Smith and Mladic. The motion represents that that

22 meeting took place in Zepa itself; in fact, that is not the case. That

23 meeting occurred in Mrkonjic Grad, and that is on the 31st of July, and I

24 just wanted to make that clear that for that meeting General Gvero was not

25 present in Zepa, that meeting took place elsewhere.

Page 9283

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And that is in relation to which --

2 MR. THAYER: That is, Mr. President, in relation to Roman

3 numerals, subparagraph (ii) under paragraph 2, page 1 of the Prosecution's

4 filing yesterday.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.

6 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we were obviously not very pleased about

7 this; however, my learned friend was good enough to ring Mr. Krgovic

8 almost immediately and tell him of the mistake. In an ideal world, we

9 would like the Prosecution to file a correction. However, I note that the

10 motion itself is confidential. This has been dealt with in open session,

11 and the Prosecution have made it plain that it's not suggested that my

12 client had any such meeting in Zepa at the material time. And therefore,

13 bearing in mind my learned friend's good grace, we accept the correction

14 and invite the Chamber to take note of it.

15 So far as the motion itself is concerned, speaking for myself, I

16 have not yet seen all of this material. My learned friend has told me

17 that a CD is being burnt and we will have it during the course of the

18 morning. Realistically we need to view that before we make any

19 submissions. However, having spoken to some of the other Defence counsel,

20 there is going to be certainly some opposition to the addition of this

21 exhibit, and we may well support that opposition. But at the moment I'd

22 like to reserve the Gvero Defence's position, if I may, until we have

23 reviewed the material.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You certainly may, Mr. Josse. Would you like to

25 have the floor now, or shall we hear what Madam Fauveau has to say first?

Page 9284

1 Is it always in relation to the same issue? Yes, Madam Fauveau.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, and in fact I am

3 the source of the opposition to which my colleague was referring to. I'm

4 not talking about the essence of these exhibits. I have seen them, but I

5 do not recall it exactly, but the Prosecutor, however, is continuously

6 forgetting to put some exhibits on the list.

7 I believe that it is no longer a simple omission. I believe that

8 this is something that the Defence -- that the Prosecution could have done

9 a long time ago, but almost a year ago a 65 ter list was made, this

10 exhibit was not put on the list, and in -- on the 15th of February the

11 Prosecutor told us which witnesses were going to testify -- to testify in

12 March, and they told us which exhibits would be presented, and those

13 exhibits were not included.

14 Now, three or four days before the witness is called to the bar we

15 have to find, verify those exhibits, so I'm -- my opposition is not so

16 much to the fact that he wishes to add these exhibits, but if that is the

17 case I would like the Defence to be granted a month in order to be able to

18 prepare adequately for the cross-examination of this witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

20 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

21 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, just to be clear, these are materials

22 which have been in the Defence's possession for in excess of a year.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what you state in the motion, yes.

24 MR. THAYER: I have furnished the time ranges for these four

25 clips, which is what this video material amounts to, four video clips

Page 9285

1 totalling at most, 15 minutes of playing time. I would suspect that after

2 proofing the witness, which we have not yet had an opportunity to do, that

3 will be cut down to approximately 10 minutes. But I have provided the

4 time training ranges for those clips to the 100th of a second, basically,

5 for each of those clips. We are, as was represented a moment ago burning

6 those clips or burning the videos themselves again on to CD, just so there

7 is no confusion. With the time ranges I've given, it shouldn't take more

8 than a second to find each and every one of these very, very brief video

9 clips. So I think the preparation time in connection with that, in terms

10 of viewing them, should be minimal. I have done everything I can to

11 minimise the time loss with respect to these exhibits.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Thayer. We will obviously

13 need to come back to this on Monday when we resume and when that would

14 also give you the opportunity to go deeper into the matter and think about

15 it and us the opportunity to be able to discuss it with Judge Kwon, who

16 would be back with us on Monday, hopefully.

17 All right. With regard to the protective measures that are sought

18 in relation to Witnesses 48 and 49, are there any -- are you in a position

19 now to confirm whether there are any objections or not?

20 Mr. Josse.

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, again, speaking on behalf of our team

22 only, we have some misgiving about this particular application; however,

23 the stance we are going to take is that we are ultimately neutral. We

24 would invite the Trial Chamber to examine the application very carefully.

25 So far as 49 is concerned, we have considerable amount of

Page 9286

1 cross-examination for 49, and frankly, if this application is granted,

2 will virtually all have to be in private session because of the nature of

3 the job that he did at the relevant time.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Well, I think we will come back to this

5 on Monday as well. And perhaps you would be kind enough on Monday to

6 enlighten us on the misgivings that you have, because I think we will need

7 to dispense with the usual time limit for filing responses.

8 MR. JOSSE: We would be grateful for some mature reflection.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: On the other hand, if you stand up and tell us you

11 have got misgivings, we would like to know what they are, especially since

12 you are inviting us to give due weight to the motion and to any misgivings

13 or objections that there might be. So we will come back to it on Monday,

14 Monday morning. And we'll then be able -- we'll then be in a position to

15 respond. But if possible, could I invite the other Defence teams, if you

16 also have misgivings, if you wish to object to the granting of protective

17 measures, could you kindly Monday morning come prepared? You don't need

18 to file a formal response, but could you Monday morning, please, be

19 prepared to let us know what your objections might be. All right.

20 I thank you, Mr. Josse.

21 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Any further preliminary matters? None.

23 Okay. So I think we can -- yes -- yeah, okay. I suppose you are

24 standing, ready to continue your cross-examination? Or for some other

25 reason.

Page 9287

1 MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I just

2 wanted to point out to an inconsistency in the transcript from the --

3 yesterday's hearing. Page 26 of the transcript, my question to the

4 witness contained the expression "framing us up" when the witness spoke

5 about a certain person from Milici, line 11 of the transcript. And then

6 the same situation on page 56, line 25 was described with the

7 word "planted," which gives a somewhat different context to the entire

8 situation. So I want this to state -- I want to state this for the

9 record.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You know what the procedure is, because even last

11 week we had an occasion of receiving a memo from the CLSS correcting parts

12 of the transcript. So I'm sure it will be taken in hand, Mr. Mrkic. And

13 I'm -- I hope you're satisfied with this. I mean there is a procedure

14 that is usually resorted to.

15 MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President. Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning. Good morning to you. Good morning to

19 you, sir. Welcome back.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do our best today to possibly finish with

22 your testimony, but I am not in a position to guarantee you that. It

23 depends on how many more questions Mr. Mrkic has.

24 Do you plan to finish your cross-examination shortly, Mr. Mrkic?

25 MR. MRKIC: [Microphone not activated]

Page 9288

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Half an hour at the

3 longest.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

5 Witness, just for formality's sake, but also because it is

6 important, you are still testifying pursuant to the solemn declaration

7 that you made at beginning of your testimony, that you will be speaking

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 Mr. Mrkic.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-162 [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Mrkic [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. I would like to go back to the meeting that you had on the 14th

17 with the two officers. This has to do with the machinery and equipment

18 that they sought. You said that you called the director of the brick

19 factory in relation to that. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes. I called him.

21 Q. Would you agree with me that the brickworks at the time had the

22 machinery available, the one that you allegedly needed for the officers?

23 A. You said it in plural. As far as I know the brickworks had only

24 one piece of machinery; ULT.

25 Q. Did they ask for another piece of equipment except for the one

Page 9289

1 that you mentioned now, ULT?

2 A. No. Just that one. Or rather, I told them that they had that one

3 piece, and they were satisfied with that answer. As far as I know, they

4 didn't inquire whether there were more pieces of equipment. Actually, I

5 did tell them that the utility company had another small piece of

6 machinery.

7 Q. And what was their reaction to that?

8 A. I already told you what was their reaction when I mentioned the

9 driver. I've described to you their reaction at the time, and there was

10 no other reaction.

11 Q. When I asked you about the reaction, I wasn't referring to that

12 reaction. Rather, I wanted to know whether they showed any interest for

13 getting this other piece of machinery from the utility company?

14 A. As far as I remember, they didn't, they weren't interested in it,

15 because I didn't even call the director of the utility company, I only

16 called the director of the brickworks, and based on that I concluded they

17 were not interested in that small machine.

18 Q. You basically anticipated my next question. I was going to ask

19 you about the director of the utility company. You did not call the

20 director of the utility company, nor did anybody ask you to?

21 A. Nobody asked me to call him, and I didn't call him.

22 Q. I would like now to turn to a different situation. Reading

23 yesterday's transcript of your testimony, I concluded, and you may correct

24 me if I'm wrong, that in the interview that you had with Mr. Ruez in 1998

25 you basically did not understand why you were summoned and what the topic

Page 9290

1 of the interview with Mr. Ruez was?

2 A. I can't really tell you the extent of my understanding at the

3 time. I knew why they called me, they called me about the events of July

4 1995. In that interview I was guided by Investigator Ruez. Whatever

5 questions I understood, I gave them answers, and you can find them in the

6 interview. I don't know if I was clear enough.

7 Q. Does that mean that it was your understanding that Mr. Ruez was

8 interested in the events surrounding the fall of Srebrenica or the

9 liberation of Srebrenica, and the events that followed thereafter?

10 A. Whatever he asked me, I gave him answers. Now, if you are asking

11 me to go back 10 years, and to analyse how I experienced that, what my

12 thoughts were, it's too difficult. I simply answered the questions to the

13 best of my ability at the time.

14 Q. I don't know whether you answered my question or not.

15 A. Well, why don't you repeat your question. I don't know what you

16 are hinting at.

17 Q. Well, my question was clear. Were you clear about the fact that

18 Mr. Ruez was interested in the events concerning Srebrenica itself and

19 events after Srebrenica? And by this I'm referring to all of the events

20 and the questions of Mr. Ruez focusing on that.

21 A. Well, yes, it was clear it me that he was interested in the

22 Srebrenica events. What else would he be interested in? And whatever he

23 was interested in I helped him with, to the extent that I was able.

24 Q. Does that mean that you answered Mr. Ruez's questions concerning

25 the events after Srebrenica to the best of your recollection at the time?

Page 9291

1 A. Most likely to the best of my recollection, certainly not to the

2 worst of my recollection. Whatever recollections I had at the time.

3 Q. Does this then mean that the events you described to Mr. Ruez and

4 the answers you provided to Mr. Ruez's questions are basically those that

5 you considered to be truthful at the time when you were interviewed by

6 Mr. Ruez?

7 A. Reading this interview now, I gain an impression that Mr. Ruez

8 didn't put questions clearly to me and that based on my answers he perhaps

9 was only superficially satisfied. Perhaps you're going to misinterpret my

10 words now. I'm not a lawyer, so I speak as a layman. But he was the one

11 in charge of the interview. If something was unclear, he could have put

12 additional questions to me in order to get all the answers. Looking at

13 the interview now, it seems to me that he was satisfied with my answers.

14 There were no follow-up questions, no additional questions. I don't know

15 if what I said just now is clear enough to you.

16 There was an interview, I provided answers. And, in my view, Ruez

17 was satisfied with my answers. Perhaps I didn't attribute enough weight

18 to certain things at the time, but I am not accustomed to these kinds of

19 things. I'm not a judge, not a lawyer, and at the time that was the first

20 time that I had met with an investigator in my life. That was the first

21 time that I gave an interview where I was nervous, a bit scared. He could

22 have done a better job with that interview, the investigator, in case I

23 wasn't clear enough in some segments. That was the first contact I had

24 with any kind of investigation, court, and at the time I was 50-something

25 years old, and I had no previous experience with investigations.

Page 9292

1 Q. Sir, I do not wish to abuse or misuse anything you say, I'm just

2 trying to clarify some things that are not clear to me.

3 A. Perhaps we can clarify that today.

4 Q. Yes, that is what we're trying to do.

5 A. Whatever was unclear then.

6 Q. Well, let me put the question to you this way: How many times did

7 you see Mr. Ruez?

8 A. Just once. That time and never again.

9 Q. After that did you see any other investigators from the OTP?

10 A. I don't think that I did.

11 Q. From then onwards, when was the first time that you had any

12 contact with any lawyer relating to any issues pertaining to Srebrenica?

13 Do you remember that?

14 A. I remember that Momir Nikolic's attorney came. I think his name

15 was Londrovic. That was during the Nikolic case, when that was underway.

16 And that lawyer, I think his name was Londrovic, he spoke with me in

17 Bratunac. To the effect, would I agree to testify if necessary, in the

18 Nikolic case, and I agreed. And we talked, however this didn't actually

19 materialise. I didn't come to the Tribunal in relation to the Nikolic

20 case. *Later I spoke to the attorney Karnavas, who was defending -- oh, is

21 somebody telling me something? No. Anyway, I spoke with Mr. Karnavas

22 later with the Blagojevic case, and that's when I came to the Tribunal to

23 testify, in the Blagojevic case.

24 These are the conversations that I recall with the lawyers and

25 investigators from the first contact with Mr. Ruez to -- until today.

Page 9293

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Mrkic. We are taking care of the

2 redaction.

3 MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. I just wanted to confirm one thing before I move to

5 Mr. Blagojevic's attorneys. Were you friends with Mr. Nikolic?

6 A. The word "friends," well, maybe that's not quite appropriate;

7 maybe good acquaintances, lived in the same town. I think that those

8 terms were better, that we were good acquaintances, close acquaintances,

9 and that we lived in the same town. Friends? Perhaps that would be a bit

10 too far. We were a little bit less than that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Avoid unnecessary question being put later on, when

12 you say, were you friends with Mr. Nikolic, there being many Nikolics, you

13 are referring to Momir Nikolic, weren't you, Mr. Mrkic? And you, too,

14 that's how you understood it, Witness?

15 MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, precisely.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant Momir, yes.

17 MR. MRKIC: [Interpretation]

18 *Q. While preparing to testify as a Defence witness in the Blagojevic

19 case, did you see Mr. Blagojevic's attorneys once or -- or on more

20 occasions?

21 A. On more occasions. I think that I saw Karnavas in Bratunac once,

22 Suzana, his assistant. I -- from what I understood, I met with her twice

23 in Bratunac, and then again with Karnavas here at The Hague when I came to

24 testify, in his office in a house somewhere.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]... redactions, but if you

Page 9298

1 this referred to the Muslim army that had been in Srebrenica up until that

2 time, because we heard that the 28th Division was there. Was the

3 condition practically that only the civilian population remains and that

4 no armed people, no army, remains? Is that what you meant?

5 A. I perhaps omitted saying that the commander of the Dutch Battalion

6 of UNPROFOR and his deputy attended this meeting. And from what I can

7 recall, General Mladic asked them to demilitarise Srebrenica, which

8 implied that the Muslims should hand over, actually the Muslim army that

9 was in Srebrenica should hand over their weapons, the army that had been

10 there for the previous three years, for as long as that lasted. I'm not

11 sure now if the General meant that they should hand over their weapons to

12 the VRS or to the UNPROFOR battalion, I'm not sure about that, but that

13 this request was made for demilitarisation, and for weapons to be handed

14 over at this meeting, yes, I'm sure of that.

15 Q. You also talked about the distribution of humanitarian aid, not

16 humanitarian aid, but the essential food stuffs in Potocari; bread, juices

17 and so on that was distributed to the population. My question is, did you

18 notice that this distribution of this assistance was filmed by TV crews?

19 A. I saw a camera, and a man with a camera, but I didn't pay

20 attention to that. But I do remember that there was a person walking

21 along the asphalt road in Potocari, and they were filming. I didn't

22 really pay that much attention to it, but I do remember that there was a

23 camera.

24 Q. We had the opportunity here to hear an assertion or a claim that

25 the assistance was distributed only for as long as the camera was taping.

Page 9299

1 As soon as the camera stopped filming the assistance was not distributed

2 anymore, and what had a been distributed until then was taken back. Can

3 you please tell us if this is true or not?

4 A. That is not accurate. Assistance was distributed continuously

5 throughout the day and the following day. Because the people were in

6 Potocari for two days. I really cannot tell you with certainty how much

7 aid was given, and I agree that it was insufficient, that our capacities

8 were not enough. But to the extent that we were able to, we did provide

9 assistance. It had been sent from Ljubovija, from Zvornik, it's true that

10 it wasn't sufficient, but it went on continuously for those two days.

11 And, as you said, that there was a claim that this had been done only

12 because of the camera, that is not accurate, that is not true.

13 Q. Thank you. When you say the assistance was insufficient, does

14 that mean that you practically gave what you were able to give, what you

15 had? It was simply insufficient, because you didn't have more to give?

16 A. Yes, exactly.

17 Q. You mentioned a person named Jahic. I would like to ask you

18 something regarding the departure of that person from Potocari. Could you

19 give us the approximate age of that person?

20 A. Well, that person is perhaps up to five years older than me. At

21 that time I was 48, and that person was perhaps 52 or 53.

22 Q. Tell me, please, did somebody want to detain that person, to

23 remain there? Did somebody want to prevent that person from entering the

24 bus with you?

25 A. No, you misunderstood me. That person, Jahic, can we mention the

Page 9300

1 name, the first name? Jahic Omo. He was on the bus in front of the

2 municipal building. He was sitting somewhere in the middle of the bus.

3 And he knocked on the window as I came out of the municipal building and

4 approached the bus. He was constantly on the bus, inside the bus. He

5 didn't go in and out -- or out.

6 Q. Perhaps I was wrong about the last name. I think that there was

7 somebody whom you helped to get on the bus with his wife?

8 A. Yes. You were wrong. The Jahic person was in Bratunac, in front

9 of the municipal building on the 12th in the evening. And in Potocari it

10 was during the day on the 12th -- oh, no, actually, you're right. Both of

11 them are called Jahic, both the person in Potocari, Jahic Nijazija, and

12 the person on the bus in Bratunac is Jahic too, yes. Both of them are

13 Jahic. You're quite right. But you were not clear to me.

14 Q. I apologise for that. So can you tell me about the first person?

15 What was the age of that person?

16 *A. Well, he was up to 60, Jahic Nijazija, and he built, before the

17 war, my house in Bratunac, my family house.

18 Q. So when you were there, and when you helped that person get on the

19 bus, let me ask you this: Were there somebody else who wanted to move him

20 away, to separate him from his wife?

21 A. No. From that spot, which was some 200 metres away, I took them

22 personally to the bus and I saw them board the bus and sit on the seat.

23 Nobody tried to separate them, and then I turned around and went back and

24 never saw the man again.

25 But he sent me a message, he lives today in Central Bosnia in

Page 9301

1 Vares. Or Breza.

2 Q. I saw that in your evidence you were quite accurate and specific

3 when it comes to dates, and the dates can be quite significant to us.

4 Since these events were quite a long time ago, I would like to know how

5 good your recollection is when it comes to the dates.

6 *A. I'm quite specific when it comes to the dates because I testified

7 in Blagojevic case, and three days ago when I came to the Tribunal I

8 listened to my entire testimony in the Blagojevic case. I took notes as I

9 was listening to that, and the Prosecutor has my notes, and you do.

10 This has refreshed my memory concerning the dates, the fact that I

11 listened to the tape.

12 Q. Thank you. In the Blagojevic case you testified some eight years

13 after the events?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We have been busy redacting as you go along. But

15 let's go into private session, please. And again redact this last part as

16 well.

17 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: When you finish with the Blagojevic case questions

19 we will revert back to open session.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You testified in the Blagojevic case some eight years after the

22 Srebrenica events, as far as I could gather. Tell me, please, at that

23 time, how clear was your memory about the events? Not only about the

24 events, but dates, more specifically.

25 A. Well, perhaps initially it wasn't completely accurate and

Page 9302

1 specific, but later on, as I started talking about it, things came back to

2 me and things started falling into place, and I think that the chronology

3 of some events became quite clear when it comes to the dates.

4 Q. And as things started falling into place, as you described it, as

5 the puzzle pieces were put together, did you receive any assistance from

6 the lawyers that you spoke to?

7 A. Yes, certainly. We met in Bratunac and, you know, we would talk

8 to the lawyers for 10 hours or 10.00, and then we would meet again in the

9 afternoon, and then I would get together with the people who were with me

10 at the time, and we would exchange views and debate whether it was then or

11 then. And then some 15 days later, lawyers would come again. And then in

12 the meantime I had talked to other people as well in order to put all the

13 puzzle pieces together and get the chronology right.

14 So it's not like my memory was so good that in one single day I

15 was able to reconstruct everything and say this was on the 11th, no. It

16 took some time to get all the puzzle pieces together. And, yes, I

17 received assistance from the lawyers.

18 For example, the Executive Board, as the president of the

19 Executive Board, I had a diary and I would record things on certain dates,

20 describing my activities on that day. So that helped me get puzzle pieces

21 together too.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we revert to open session now?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we can.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's do that, please.

25 [Open session]

Page 9304

1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we are in private session -- On the Blagojevic

2 case and the witness's testimony so that we can revert to open session.

3 It's three redactions that I have to sign in the space of one breath.

4 We are in private session now, yes. We will continue in private

5 session for a while. In the meantime, prepare the redactions, please.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So in the Blagojevic case, as I have said, you spoke about being

8 invited to the meeting on the 14th of July in the SDS premises. You

9 testified, and this is also written in the notes of yours that we were

10 provided with, apparently you were summoned, you received notice to attend

11 the meeting at about 10.00. Yesterday you said that the notice arrived at

12 around 9.30. So would you please tell us whether 10.00 is correct or did

13 you subsequently change it to 9.30?

14 A. I don't know whether I actually said it, but my intention was to

15 say that it was between 9.30 and 10.00 that I received a telephone call

16 from Mirna, the secretary, to come to the SDS premises.

17 Q. So would you please tell me, what made you change the time? From

18 1995 you had various interviews, testimonies, meetings with the

19 Prosecutor, and in all of them you said that the call came at 10.00. But

20 yesterday you said that the call came at 9.30.

21 A. I don't know why this is significant. I don't even know whether I

22 had a watch on me. Perhaps I didn't even look at it. So I can't tell you

23 whether it was at 9.30 or at 10.00. My intention was to say that it was

24 in the morning hours, between 9.30 and 10.00. I'm not sure now whether I

25 came to the SDS premises at 9.30 or at 9.45 or at 10.00, but it was at

Page 9305

1 around that period of time. I can't be more specific than that.

2 Q. My question is as follows: You say that you came to the SDS

3 premises at 9.30 or at 9.45. And earlier you said that you received a

4 phone call at 10.00. Perhaps this doesn't seem significant to you, but it

5 actually can be.

6 A. Well, most likely it is significant to you. I apologise. We're

7 overlapping.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And, apart from overlapping, I think we've covered

9 this territory enough. Let's move to your next question and please us

10 whether we will continue in private session or we will revert to open

11 session. But he's answered this question more than three times.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think he

13 answered. He actually provided a new answer now. Until now he was saying

14 when he received a phone call. And now he said about the time when he

15 went there, actually. So I don't think this is an answer he already gave

16 so I would like to pursue this question.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just wanted to point out, maybe to my learned

20 friend, and also the Court, the reference that Mr. Zivanovic is referring

21 to in the prior transcript is at page 9230 at line 6, and, in fact, what

22 the witness said was that sometime after that, at 9.30 or thereabouts,

23 that he received the call. And I think that that sufficiently answers the

24 question. And I also object to Defence counsel's characterisation of the

25 testimony as definitively at 9.00 [sic] because the record doesn't reflect

Page 9306

1 that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case we are of the opinion that he has

3 answered the question when he said 9.30 or 10.00, he meant any time in

4 between. So let's -- let's move forward, please.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't have any

6 further questions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back to open session, please.

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Witness, you are now going to be

10 examined by Madam Nikolic who is appearing here for Drago Nikolic.

11 I know that you are very attentive, Ms. Nikolic, so I'm going to

12 rely completely on you to tell us when we need to go into private session.

13 Thank you.

14 And you, Witness, try to avoid mentioning anything substantive or

15 material that could identify your identity, which we have been trying very

16 hard to keep from the public. Although I am pretty sure that everyone

17 knows exactly who is testifying here now.

18 Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will do my best.

20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. I will put only one question to you in open session and then we

25 will move into private session.

Page 9307

1 How common is the last name of Nikolic in Bratunac and that area?

2 A. It's very common.

3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Can we move into private session,

4 please.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's do that. I hope you're not going to ask

6 him to mention them all, Ms. Nikolic.

7 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I will not.

9 Q. Sir, on page 37 and 38 of yesterday's transcript you mentioned two

10 persons, two directors of a farm; Jovan Nikolic and Dragan Nikolic.

11 Dragan Nikolic that you spoke of never served as an officer in the Zvornik

12 Brigade, correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We can move back into open session,

15 sir, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move back into open session, please.

17 [Open session]

18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Sir, did you know Drago Nikolic, an officer of the Zvornik

20 Brigade, in that period, in 1995?

21 A. Just by seeing him around. We never actually were introduced, we

22 never met in person. I didn't know him, somebody pointed him out to me.

23 But we didn't actually know each other.

24 Q. So in that period you knew his face, you knew what he looked like,

25 you would recognise him in the street if you had met him? Is that

Page 9309

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honours, can we move into private

4 session for just a few questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, immediately. We've never refused to go into

6 private session. So let's go into private session straight away.

7 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. During your testimony before this Tribunal, you spoke about the

10 meeting in the Hotel Fontana on the 12th of July, 1995, which you yourself

11 also attended. There is no dispute about that. Do you recall that part

12 of your testimony?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. If I understood what you said properly, and you said that

15 General Mladic practically provided the opportunity for the Muslim

16 delegation to decide if they wanted to stay in Srebrenica or to choose to

17 be evacuated, and also to pick the place to which they could be evacuated

18 or the direction in which they would be evacuated?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. If for a moment we go back to the previous meeting which you -- or

21 just an encounter, I wouldn't call it a meeting, that you had with

22 General Mladic, that same day at 8.00 in the morning, it was actually the

23 same thing this you also suggested to General Mladic during that meeting.

24 The meeting that preceded this meeting in the Fontana, namely that the

25 Muslims should be asked what they wanted to do, and how the matter should

Page 9310

1 be resolved? Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I also understood from your testimony that representatives of the

4 Muslims, the three people who were at the meeting in the Fontana Hotel,

5 refused any possibility of staying in Srebrenica, that they insisted on

6 being evacuated. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that they just wanted to leave the area.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] One more question, and then I believe

9 that we will be able to move into open session.

10 Q. [Interpretation] During the meeting at the Fontana Hotel, were you

11 aware that the meeting was being filmed by a camera?

12 A. Yes, I saw a camera and the person who was operating it.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I believe we can move into open

15 session now.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go into open session, please.

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Q. [Interpretation] We had the opportunity to hear the testimony of a

21 member of DutchBat here who attended the Fontana meeting on the 12th in

22 the morning, and who said that the tape that he looked at did not actually

23 capture the entire meeting. Do you allow for the possibility that the

24 whole meeting was not filmed, that there was some interruptions?

25 A. I know that the camera was recording. I don't know if it recorded

Page 9312

1 minute, and please pay attention to what will be said, to a part of the

2 footage from the Hotel Fontana, or from the hotel in Bratunac, which we

3 will now play for you, and we can look at it together. And I hope that we

4 will have the opportunity to comment that's so. This is video marked

5 V004458. And the time that should be shown starts from 01.50.39 to

6 01.51.04.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Sir, after we've looked at this segment --

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Maybe we should move into private

11 session. I apologise. I apologise [Previous translation continues] ... I

12 apologise.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact I'm waiting to see what's happening, because

14 it's the same like when you asked for the private session, we couldn't --

15 we couldn't -- are you asking for private session again?

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, precisely.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. All right.

18 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Same thing. I mean, we are not following you in

21 your own language. So when you speak in English -- in your own language,

22 we don't get it. And it doesn't show up in the transcript as well, so we

23 don't know exactly what you're saying.

24 So Mr. Lazarevic is asking for private session. We already are in

25 private session.

Page 9313

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Sir, this is just to protect your identity, since you attended the

3 meeting and that could be something that could reveal your identity. So

4 this is why we're doing it.

5 Now that we have looked at this footage, just now, does that

6 perhaps remind you of some details about what the Dutch representatives

7 agreed on at this meeting? Were you able to -- excuse me. Were you able

8 to understand well what the DutchBat commander said to General Mladic at

9 this meeting and which is recorded in this footage?

10 A. Let me say, the interpreter was a person that I knew, and he was

11 sitting there next to the UNPROFOR commander, and General Mladic and

12 partially between Mladic and I'm not sure if I would be able to interpret

13 him.

14 Q. Yes, there is the possibility that you didn't hear that part?

15 A. Yes, yes. Precisely.

16 Q. But in any case, for the purpose of some other questions that have

17 to do with the later period, you saw here that Colonel Karremans, the

18 commander of the Dutch Battalion, told General Mladic that his ministry,

19 the Dutch defence ministry, ordered him as the commander of the Dutch

20 Battalion, to offer all possible assistance in the evacuation of the

21 population. You heard that?

22 A. Yes, and I heard that before as well.

23 Q. And of course you heard that Colonel Karremans was offering

24 General Mladic his battalion to help in the evacuation of the population.

25 We just saw that a minute ago.

Page 9314

1 A. Yes, yes. There was that offer. I know that.

2 Q. And now if we agree now, I think, about this, if we now advance in

3 time forward into Potocari when you came to see the civilians, is what the

4 commander said at the meeting and promised General Mladic was that

5 actually implemented in practice and did the Dutch Battalion help in the

6 evacuation of the civilians from Potocari?

7 A. The situation in Potocari itself was confusing. When I came to

8 Potocari I saw soldiers of the Dutch Battalion in a cordon that was

9 separating the population of Srebrenica from the road there. So that no

10 one could approach them from the road. That was what I first saw, them

11 standing about one or two metres apart from one another in a cordon that

12 was some 30 or 40 metres long, so that they could stand between the

13 population and the road so that somebody would just come there uninvited

14 and so on.

15 I mean, they were there, but that was, in my view, their main

16 task, to separate the civilian population from other people who were in

17 Potocari.

18 Q. Thank you very much. You know, I don't want you to tell us

19 something that you didn't see and that you did not experience yourself, so

20 I will be happy to accept this answer of yours.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And just to clarify something in

22 the transcript, the video clip that we just saw is part of the trial video

23 numbered P02047.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make this clear, did you see yourself,

25 recognise yourself in the video clip that we saw?

Page 9315

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did. In the yellow shirt.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I think we can move into open session

4 now.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. Let's move into open session,

6 please.

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, now we are in Potocari, and bread, water, and other

11 articles are being distributed that the municipality of Bratunac managed

12 to secure for the needs of the Muslim civilians there. During this

13 distribution of bread and other food stuffs, juices, chocolates, was there

14 ever a situation that the bread that had been distributed to the civilians

15 already is taken back from them by the Serbian forces?

16 A. No, there is no question of that. That is a preposterous --

17 well ...

18 Q. Well, I assume that too, because there were some such indications,

19 is it possible that once bread is distributed to the masses then it is

20 taken back?

21 A. Well, this would not be possible, theoretically, and it wouldn't

22 occur to anyone to do that at all. Just the idea of that is quite

23 unrealistic.

24 Q. Thank you very much. During the time that you were in Potocari,

25 you had the opportunity to meet some acquaintances, Muslims, let's not

Page 9316

1 mention any names, to briefly chat with them. Was it your impression that

2 those people that you were talking with, whom you knew, that you had a

3 contact with at the time, was it your impression that they all wanted to

4 go to Tuzla as soon as possible and leave Potocari?

5 A. Yes, precisely. They all wanted to get on the buses out of turn,

6 just so that they could leave Potocari as soon as possible.

7 Q. I assume that you were able to see that with a large number of

8 people there; in any case, I'm thinking of those civilians, Muslims who

9 were in Potocari?

10 A. Many of us who were there knew somebody, and we were all asked by

11 someone for that kind assistance.

12 Q. Having that in view now, and the experience you had in Potocari,

13 and what we talked about earlier about that certain agreement that had

14 been reached, according to what you know did the representatives of

15 Muslims who attended the Fontana meeting actually properly and accurately

16 reflect the mood of the people, the civilians in Potocari whom they

17 represented at the meeting?

18 A. I assume that they did, but the Muslim representatives also were

19 supposed to meet there with us, and they were supposed to distribute this

20 aid, this humanitarian aid. However, we didn't see them up there. We

21 didn't meet them in Potocari and we should have done so, they were

22 supposed to be together with us. When we went up there nobody waited for

23 us, so that we could hand over this aid to somebody in the sense that we

24 had brought it and we were handing it over to somebody else to

25 distribute. This did not happen. There was nobody there to wait for us

Page 9317

1 and we didn't see anyone there.

2 Q. Thank you very much. So that was an agreement for the Muslim

3 representatives to distribute the food. But they did not adhere to that,

4 according to your information?

5 A. Yes, that is right. And then it was done, I don't even know how

6 to describe it, but they were supposed to do that, and then we just did

7 that without any kind of organisation or order. It was just done.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, if it's time for -- for our break.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

11 We will continue with your cross-examination after the break,

12 which will be of 25 minutes.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic. We are in open session.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And we can remain in open

17 session.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, just a couple of more questions and we will

19 conclude with this cross-examination. While you were in Potocari during

20 these events on the 12th and 13th of July, you had occasion to see members

21 of the Dutch Battalion; you already testified about that, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the members of the Dutch Battalion that you saw then were in

24 their military equipment, they had helmets, flak jackets, weapons, all the

25 proper stuff; correct?

Page 9319

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

2 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, is it true to say that the civilian

4 authorities were in function during the war in Bratunac, they were

5 operational?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. You've mentioned, sir, yesterday, Dragoslav Trisic. Dragoslav

8 Trisic, was an officer of the Bratunac Brigade and was he in charge of the

9 liaison between the brigade and the municipality?

10 A. Dragan Trisic was a major and he was assistant commander for

11 logistics. He was the person in charge of contact and coordination

12 between the army and the municipal Executive Board.

13 Q. Can we say that a contact between the Bratunac Brigade and the

14 municipal authorities of Bratunac were mainly limited to the supply of the

15 brigade, the supplying of the brigade?

16 A. Precisely so. The contact was related to the logistics support of

17 the municipality to the Bratunac Brigade in terms of providing food,

18 clothing, cigarettes, those items mostly.

19 Q. And can we say that the command of the Bratunac Brigade was not

20 involved in the daily life of the Bratunac -- of the city, in fact. I am

21 talking about they were not interfering with the management of the city

22 and how the city was being ran.

23 A. In the Executive Board, which consisted of seven members, one was

24 an army representative, which is to say that six were civilians and one

25 was a military man. So in that respect the army had some pool or some

Page 9320

1 influence, because out of seven members of the Executive Board one was the

2 army representative. I don't know if I was clear enough.

3 Q. Yes, but allow me to clarify. So the army had a representative of

4 the Executive Board, but the brigade command did not usually call you to

5 tell you what to do. Is that right?

6 A. No, no. As I said to you, Trisic, who was the assistant for

7 logistics support, was the intermediary who conveyed their needs in terms

8 of food, clothing, cigarettes, and so on.

9 Q. On many occasions you mentioned Miroslav Deronjic. Is it right to

10 say that at the time in 1995 Miroslav Deronjic was not only the SDS

11 president of Bratunac, but he was also the president of the regional SDS?

12 A. Precisely so. Regional board of the SDS of the Birac region,

13 which comprised Bratunac, Zvornik, Srebrenica, Sekovici, Milici, and

14 Vlasenica municipalities. I think that I enumerated all of them. That

15 was the Birac region. And Deronjic was the regional president of the SDS

16 for that region.

17 Q. Can we say that Miroslav Deronjic was a person that had a great

18 influence on the events and life of the -- in the region?

19 A. In political sense, yes. He had influence. In the military

20 sense, I don't think so, but in the political sense, yes.

21 Q. And, in fact, Miroslav Deronjic was very close to

22 President Karadzic; he had personal dealings with Karadzic. Is that

23 right?

24 A. He was a member of the SDS Presidency. I think that the SDS

25 leadership had seven vice-presidents. One of the seven was Deronjic, in

Page 9321

1 my view, and Karadzic was the president of the SDS. So that's the top

2 echelons of the political party.

3 Q. And can we say that the relations between Deronjic and Ratko

4 Mladic were not very good, that they had a conflictual relationship?

5 A. One could say so. There was no love lost between them, if one can

6 say so.

7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we revert into open session,

8 Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move to open session, please.

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Sir, can you tell me, in 1995 how many people lived in the city of

14 Bratunac?

15 A. In the town of Bratunac, we didn't really have accurate records,

16 but I would say 10 to 12.000. In the town itself. As for the

17 municipality, perhaps another two to 3.000. Because there were parts near

18 the Drina River that were populated. So I would say that the entire

19 municipality of Bratunac had about 15.000 residents.

20 Q. And is it true to say that during the war there were a lot of

21 refugees in the city of Bratunac?

22 A. All of the refugees from the Srebrenica municipality who were of

23 Serb ethnicity moved into Bratunac. In my assessment, that amounted to

24 some four to 5.000 of Serbs from the Srebrenica municipality.

25 Q. And the civilian authorities in Bratunac, did they, before the

Page 9322

1 event of the 11th of July, 1995, had any contacts with the DutchBat

2 members?

3 A. Yes, they had. The Podrinje catering company from Bratunac, which

4 ran the Fontana motel, supplied fresh fruit and vegetables and pastry to

5 the Dutch Battalion. They would come at least three times a week, or

6 rather the vehicle of the Dutch Battalion would come to the Fontana Hotel

7 at least three times a week to take over fruit, vegetables, and pastry.

8 That lasted for at least a year. They paid for the services to the

9 catering company.

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we please move

11 into private session.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move back to private session for a short

13 while.

14 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You talked quite extensively on the meeting that took place on the

17 12th of July, 1995, at the Fontana Hotel, and you said a few times that

18 General Mladic asked representatives if they wished to stay in the region

19 or to leave. Is it right to say that at no time General Mladic suggested

20 to the Muslim representatives that the Muslim population had to leave the

21 region?

22 A. Never. The first option was always to stay, with all the

23 guarantees that I enumerated.

24 Q. And when you heard General Mladic talk during this meeting, is it

25 right to say that you believed him at the time?

Page 9323

1 A. I believed him. Sincerely believed him. Was convinced of it.

2 Q. Can we say that at no time General Mladic threatened the Muslim

3 representatives during the meeting?

4 A. He didn't threaten at all. He was quite clear. He said clearly,

5 and that wasn't a threat, that those who had bloodied their hands in

6 relation to the Serb people, would be prosecuted. Everybody else who had

7 a clean past would have full freedom of movement, living, just like all

8 other residents residing there without any type of discrimination.

9 Q. And during that reunion, that meeting, General Mladic never used

10 any unpleasant words towards the Muslim population, he was never insulting

11 towards them?

12 A. He wasn't. I think that he spoke very decently with full respect

13 to all those present.

14 Q. And when the representatives of the Muslim population said that

15 they wanted to leave, you believed this was really their will?

16 A. Absolutely.

17 Q. Is it true to say that the talks about the evacuation only began

18 when it became clear that the Muslim population wanted to leave the area?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we go back into

21 open session, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's revert to open session.

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session.

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

Page 9324

1 Q. Sir, you talked about the humanitarian aid that was given to

2 Potocari, and we will not go into that, but is it right to say that the

3 medical staff of Bratunac went to Potocari to help the population that was

4 there?

5 A. That's correct. An infirmary was established in Bratunac to treat

6 sick Muslim residents. There were some 20 people staying there.

7 Q. You talked yesterday about a man, a handicapped man, and you said

8 that you helped him get on the bus. Is it right to say that you helped

9 personally about 30 people who were handicapped to get on the buses?

10 A. That's correct. I definitely helped a group of at least 30

11 disabled people in wheelchairs. I escorted them to a bus and helped them

12 get on the bus.

13 Q. And when you were helping these disabled people, General Mladic,

14 was he there?

15 A. He was. I previously asked for the opinion of the General in

16 relation to the disabled persons. Rather, I informed him that there were

17 such persons, and that it would be a good idea to escort them to a bus in

18 the first batch, and he approved of that and that's what I did.

19 Q. When you were in Potocari you did not see any bodies, you did not

20 see people who were killed in Potocari?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And you also did not see that men were separated from their

23 families, did you?

24 A. I didn't see that.

25 Q. Is it true to say that, in fact, you really didn't see a lot of

Page 9325

1 able-bodied men in Potocari?

2 A. That's correct. And it seemed a bit peculiar to me. I could see

3 elderly men, women, children there. I asked a couple of people whom I

4 knew about some younger persons, inquiring about their whereabouts. They

5 evaded answering. They said, "Well, they're somewhere around here,

6 milling about." That's the kind of an answer they gave me. It only

7 became clear later that they were actually not there at all, that they had

8 gone towards the forest.

9 Q. But in any case, during the period during which you were in

10 Potocari, the men who were there were able to get on the buses themselves,

11 right?

12 A. Correct. It was mostly the people that I described; the sick, the

13 elderly, and so on. There were men of some 50 years old, but in good

14 shape, and women in all age groups from young girls to grandmothers, 70

15 and 80 years old.

16 Q. You've already stated that the people who were gathered in

17 Potocari wanted to leave. Is it right to say that no one, and you knew a

18 few of these people, no one told you that they wanted to stay in that

19 region?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And when these people would get on the buses they went on the

22 buses of their own free will?

23 A. You know what, the buses were some 200 metres away from where the

24 main crowd stood, and they were lined up towards the utility company, so

25 perhaps the last buses were 300 to 400 metres away from the crowd. Thus

Page 9326

1 groups were established. For example, if they -- there were five buses

2 there at that point in time, then five groups of 50 people were

3 established, and that's how they boarded.

4 They had to do it in this way in order to avoid people stampeding.

5 That was the only way to do. We prepared people to board buses that were

6 all lined up.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we can say that you did not

8 see that people were forced to go, to get on the buses?

9 A. No. Everything seemed voluntary. People were prepared for that,

10 if I may say so. It transpired normally, if one can say that anything was

11 normal there. There was no coercion used.

12 Q. When you were in Potocari you were under the impression that you

13 were helping the population so that the evacuation went smoothly?

14 A. It's not that I was under the impression, I came with that

15 intention, and I thought I was doing that, and, in fact, I did do that.

16 Q. And is it right to say that Bratunac and the municipalities around

17 Bratunac were mobilised to help the population of Potocari?

18 A. Your question is not clear. What do you mean that the

19 municipalities around Bratunac were mobilised?

20 Q. Is it true to say that the structures within the municipality of

21 Bratunac structures, such as Zvornik and Ljubovija, were organised to help

22 the people of Potocari on the 12th and 13th of July?

23 A. Yes, it's clear to me now. It was at our request, yes. Ljubovija

24 and Zvornik municipalities got involved. Your question just became clear

25 to me now. They got -- or rather, when it came to water trucks, bread,

Page 9327

1 milk, biscuits, whatever they had, just like we did, in terms of food and

2 water and so on.

3 Q. And is it right to say that the help that you organised was agreed

4 upon following the initiative of General Mladic and at the meeting where

5 you were present?

6 A. Yes. That was the result of that agreement for us to get involved

7 in the sense of providing humanitarian assistance.

8 Q. You've mentioned yesterday a proposition under which Srebrenica

9 was to leave Republika Srpska. Did you hear of another proposal, which is

10 also a current proposal parallel to this one, and under which the

11 population of Srebrenica was called upon to leave Srebrenica collectively?

12 A. Yes. There was a lot of political turmoil at the time. Political

13 tensions were rising. Not only in Republika Srpska, but in Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina as a whole. This request arrived from the top echelons of

15 Bosniaks in Srebrenica and the Bosniak leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina

16 also got involved. Once they learned that the Bosniak residents of

17 Srebrenica intended to move out unless they were granted a special status

18 within Republika Srpska. Namely, that Srebrenica be declared a special

19 district. So tensions were quite high, concerning that in Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina. And then there was a suit brought by Bosnia against Serbia

21 at the International Court of Justice following the judgement.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Bosnian leadership, this

23 concerns the Muslim leaders; is that right?

24 A. Yes. Bosniak, yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.

Page 9328

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're Bosniaks now.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a little bit unclear in my mind as to which

3 period of time he is referring specifically. If you could clarify this

4 with the witness. Thank you.

5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I was about to ask that

6 question, Mr. President. That was going to be the last.

7 Q. Now, this proposal we mentioned a moment ago, it is a proposal

8 made now, right, in 2007, is that right? 2007?

9 A. This is as current as 10 days ago. Perhaps 15 days ago. So this

10 is the latest situation.

11 Q. You spoke about the Muslims who were in the Branko Radicevic

12 school. Is it fair to say that behind that school there was a hangar?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you have no knowledge of Muslims being detained in that hangar

15 in July 1995; is that right?

16 A. I had no knowledge, because the hangar is not exactly destroyed,

17 but quite -- in quite a bad shape, without window-panes or roof, no

18 windows, no doors. It's basically a wreck.

19 Q. And you didn't hear either that Muslims would have been detained

20 in the old school, in the secondary school, which is behind the Branko

21 Radicevic school?

22 A. No. Mostly they were in the Branko Radicevic school. Well,

23 according to my knowledge, not most of the time, but exclusively.

24 Q. You testified that you distributed water to the people who were on

25 the buses in Bratunac. Is it fair to say that the buses, when you saw

Page 9329

1 them, surprised you; you didn't expect them. Is that right?

2 A. Not that we didn't expect it, no. I mean, we were very, very

3 surprised. We were surprised by the number of the buses. We neither

4 expected anything like that to happen, or thought anything like that to

5 happen.

6 Q. And since you did not know that the Muslims would go to Bratunac,

7 you could not organise humanitarian aid in Bratunac. Is that correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And like in Potocari, any aid in Bratunac was improvised. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. I told of this, particular events that I took part in, in the

12 buses with the water. I mean it just happened spontaneously. Maybe there

13 are some other cases that I'm not aware of where other people also

14 provided some kind of help, but I am not aware of that.

15 Q. From what you know, General Mladic was not in Bratunac on the 13th

16 of July, was he?

17 A. I didn't meet him. I don't know where he was. He was probably

18 all over the place. He was going around, but I don't know where he was.

19 I'm not aware of his movements.

20 Q. And you don't know whether General Mladic was informed of the fact

21 that there were these people and the buses with the Muslims in Bratunac?

22 A. I'm not aware of that fact.

23 Q. At any rate, following the meeting you attended and until the

24 buses arrived in Bratunac, you never heard that the Muslims could be taken

25 to Bratunac. Is that correct?

Page 9330

1 A. That is correct. I did not hear of that.

2 Q. Thank you very much, sir. No further questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

4 Mr. Krgovic.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.

8 A. Good day.

9 Q. I'm going to put some questions to you about what you know about

10 the events which preceded the events you testified about, specifically I

11 would like to ask you when you heard for the first time that the Drina

12 Corps was conducting actions around Srebrenica? Do you remember that?

13 A. I heard that sometime in early July. I really couldn't give you a

14 date.

15 Q. And did you hear of any reason that the Drina Corps was conducting

16 actions around Srebrenica and of the objective of that action?

17 A. According to my information, the objective of the action was to

18 prevent the constant incursions by Muslim forces into Serb villages. Very

19 often there were incursions with catastrophic consequences and I think one

20 of the objectives was to prevent these attacks.

21 Another objective was to separate the enclaves, to separate the

22 enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica. According to my information, and in my

23 view, this was necessary in order to achieve greater control of the

24 enclave, to prevent communication between the Muslim army in one enclave

25 and the other. That was according to my information and my knowledge.

Page 9331

1 Q. And it was necessary then to carry out the action and to move the

2 line of separation deeper into -- in the enclave?

3 A. Well, yes. The point was to narrow the enclave to achieve a

4 greater degree of control and to prevent incursions and attacks on Serbian

5 villages.

6 Q. I'm going to ask you something else now. You talked here about

7 your visit to Pribicevac on the 11th. You gave a lot of information about

8 that. I'm going to ask you now, you mentioned in your testimony yesterday

9 that you were at Pribicevac also on the 9th of July, 1995. Do you recall

10 saying that?

11 A. Yes, I do. I also remember switching those two dates. So I asked

12 the Trial Chamber if I could correct myself regarding the dates. I was at

13 Pribicevac on the 9th, that was two days before the 11th.

14 Q. And then you went with the person who worked in logistics whom you

15 mentioned in your previous testimony?

16 A. Yes, DT.

17 Q. You were in Pribicevac sometime in the afternoon, according to

18 information that I have. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct. It was sometime after 12.00 that we were up

20 there.

21 Q. When I say sometime in the afternoon, in the course of the day,

22 it's after noon, early afternoon? Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you went to Pribicevac, where were you? At the logistics

25 base, or did you go to the command post?

Page 9332

1 A. The reason why I went to Pribicevac that day, actually, one of the

2 reasons was to see a person that was very close to me, and with DT, to

3 tour the place. Are we in closed session?

4 Q. No, we're in open session.

5 A. Well, I don't know now what -- the purpose was to visit the 3rd

6 Battalion, to see what the logistics situation was there, what the

7 situation was with food, clothing, cigarettes. That was the second reason

8 why I went there with DT.

9 Q. When you were there in the afternoon did General Gvero come to the

10 forward command post in Pribicevac? Did you see him?

11 A. From what I can recall, I met -- I went to the rear base, to

12 the -- at -- to the logistics base in that house where that was. And the

13 road from Bratunac passes by that house. So I met the General at the

14 logistics base. Actually, we were sitting outside, and the General came

15 by, and he stopped and we said hello to each other. And from there we

16 went to the command post together.

17 The command post was about 250 to 300 metres from the logistics

18 base, and we went there together; DT, the General and I.

19 Q. Did you meet General Krstic there?

20 A. We found the General, General Krstic, at the command post, and I

21 think that Colonel Vukota was with him too.

22 Q. What did General Gvero tell you? Where was he coming from and

23 what was he doing there, did he mention anything about that?

24 A. The General said that he was on his way from Belgrade and that he

25 had dropped by to see Krle, and to visit the brigade or the battalion.

Page 9333

1 The brigade. And as I said, we met General Krstic and Colonel Vukota up

2 there, perhaps someone else was there, but I cannot remember. But I do

3 recall General Krstic and Vukota being there.

4 Q. How long did General Gvero stay at -- in the Pribicevac area? Do

5 you remember?

6 A. Well, it could have been about an hour or so from what I can

7 recall, maybe it was a little bit longer, but let's say that it was

8 approximately an hour.

9 Q. What did you talk about?

10 A. We talked about what do I know, different things. The operation

11 itself, how it was going, what life was like in Bratunac, how we were

12 carrying on. That was more or less the topic of the conversation.

13 Q. When General Gvero was there and you were at Pribicevac, was the

14 operation to separate the enclaves finished by then? And were there any

15 combat actions in the area?

16 A. From what I can remember, I think that the operation to separate

17 the enclaves was already completed. And I don't think that there was any

18 combat at that time. Everything was quiet. I think that the operation to

19 separate the enclaves was finished.

20 Q. And did General Gvero advise General Krstic when you were there

21 about carrying out military operations? Did he provide any kind of

22 military advice?

23 A. I don't recall that. I don't think so. I don't remember. I

24 don't think that he did. The operation was being discussed. I, as a

25 layperson, also put my two cents in, but I -- whether it was -- something

Page 9334

1 was done like that, and it should have been done like that, but it wasn't

2 in any other sense, really that was talked about.

3 Q. At one point did General Gvero go off with General Krstic or were

4 they together with you the whole time?

5 A. I think that we were together the whole time.

6 Q. That day, when you were at Pribicevac, General Mladic,

7 General Zivanovic, or any other high-ranking VRS officers were there. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. I just mentioned General Krstic and Colonel Vukota. Perhaps some

10 lower-ranking officers were there. There were soldiers from the

11 battalion, but there were no high-ranking officers, no. The

12 communications person was there. There were no high-ranks officers there,

13 no.

14 Q. Were you there when General Gvero left Pribicevac?

15 A. We set off together. We went -- we finished sitting there, which

16 lasted about an hour, and we had coffee and we had plumb brandy too, with

17 our coffee, it was perhaps an hour that we stayed there. We stood up, we

18 said good-bye, wished Krstic all the best on his staying there, and to

19 Colonel Vukota as well, and then we set off for Bratunac. We reached

20 Bratunac together. I think that I called the General or invited the

21 General to stop off at the municipality, but he did not. I think that he

22 said that he was in a hurry to reach Vlasenica. So we said our good-byes

23 there, and I didn't see General Gvero anymore. I'm talking about those

24 critical days from the 11th to the 14th.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you something else now. In the other case you

Page 9335

1 testified about being in Srebrenica in the town itself, shortly after the

2 Muslims left. I think it was the 13th of July.

3 A. Yes, it was the 13th. It was the following day after the 12th,

4 after the Fontana meeting. That was the first time I went to Srebrenica,

5 after that, on the 13th.

6 Q. Did you have the opportunity to go through the centre of the town

7 of Srebrenica and to look around?

8 A. I drove through the whole of Srebrenica, I don't know how familiar

9 you are with that. It's in a kind of valley, so I drove around Srebrenica

10 and I drove all over it.

11 Q. Did you notice any damage, shell craters, did you notice damage on

12 buildings? I'm asking you specifically about some buildings that you had

13 to pass by, such as the hospital, the post office and the UN base. Did

14 you notice shell or bombing damage on those buildings or on the streets of

15 Srebrenica where you passed?

16 A. The hospital, the post office, and the building where the UN base

17 was are next to the road where I passed. I didn't see any traces of

18 shelling or any shell craters. Had these things been there, you would

19 have had to see them. There were bullet pockmarks on the facades of the

20 buildings, but not shell-caused ones.

21 Q. Since you had relations with the command, I'm talking about

22 Srebrenica itself, do you know if Srebrenica itself, the town, was shelled

23 when combat operations were being carried out?

24 A. I know that the shelling of Srebrenica, where the civilian

25 population was, was explicitly forbidden. There was just shelling of the

Page 9336

1 nearby hills and woods, but I think that there was a ban on shelling the

2 actual town of Srebrenica. I don't think it, I'm sure of that. Because

3 I didn't see anywhere in the town itself, that there were any shell

4 craters. If they wanted to do this, it was possible to see Srebrenica

5 from certain vantage points, and it could have been shelled easily.

6 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

8 questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Krgovic.

10 Mr. Sarapa.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

13 A. Good morning.

14 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private session

15 for our first question.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Let's go into private session,

17 please, for a short while.

18 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in private session.

20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Given the post that you held at the time, in Bratunac, could you

22 please give a concrete answer to this question: Is it true that the

23 Bratunac Brigade had no competencies over economic affairs, education,

24 traffic, or managing the infrastructure?

25 A. No, they didn't have any competencies.

Page 9337

1 Q. Would you agree that this pertains to schools, culture halls, and

2 all other public facilities?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] We can move back into open session.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Let's move back to open session,

7 please.

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. We are in open session now,

10 yeah.

11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Is it true that the competencies or authorities of the Bratunac

13 Brigade pertained only to the areas where the troops were deployed?

14 A. Are you referring to the command?

15 Q. I am referring to facilities primarily.

16 A. Well, it was well known what facilities belonged to the army.

17 Places where the brigade was billeted, warehouses, and everything else was

18 schools, companies, and there was no army there and army had no

19 competencies over these facilities.

20 Q. So we can conclude that facilities where the army was not billeted

21 were facilities over which the brigade had no competencies?

22 A. I think that that's how it was.

23 Q. Yesterday you told us about three manners of requisitioning

24 machinery and so on. The first one was at the request of the Ministry of

25 Defence, the second one was requisitioning by putting a request to the

Page 9339

1 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now go into private session,

2 please.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session again, please.

4 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in private session.

6 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Whenever you received a request at the Executive Board, was it

8 always in writing?

9 A. What do you mean a request?

10 Q. A request to requisition a piece of equipment.

11 A. A request to requisition a piece of equipment, I don't remember I

12 ever received one in the form that you mention, namely from the brigade.

13 There was no need for that. There was plenty of time, so they went

14 through the secretariat for national defence, that was their channel. As

15 for the requests that we received at the Executive Board, from the army,

16 they normally requested food, clothing, cigarettes. The Executive Board

17 did not have time to deal with any other requests, because we were so busy

18 just supplying these items. What you are referring to normally went

19 through the secretariat for national defence. It didn't go through the

20 Executive Board.

21 Q. Thank you. I think that we're still in private session, aren't

22 we?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in private session, indeed.

24 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] We will need to remain in private

25 session for some further questions.

Page 9340

1 Q. You said in relation to the meeting you had with Miroslav

2 Deronjic, when you saw buses and a lot of people in Bratunac, that you

3 were concerned and that you went to meet with him and that on that

4 occasion Miroslav Deronjic told you the following: When you asked him

5 what was happening, page 26, line 2 of the transcript. He answered, "RD

6 and -- from M did this to us." Since we're in private session, we can

7 speak openly. He said, "Rajko Dujic [as interpreted] from Milici did this

8 to us." And then you later on you give another answer to another

9 question, and you say as follows, as to how Miroslav Deronjic told you

10 this. These are lines 10 and 11. This is what he said: [In English]

11 Rajko Dukic from Milici is framing us up."

12 [Interpretation] Later on in the course of cross-examination, when

13 asked to clarify what that meant, you said as follow, this is page 57 of

14 the transcript, lines 13 to 17: "[In English] Probably thinking that they

15 wanted to protect their own place. That's why they were pushing that

16 transport to Bratunac to avoid any kind of mess in his own town. And he

17 used his influence to do -- to do that to Bratunac so that was MD's view

18 and his opinion."

19 [Interpretation] So that was the opinion of Miroslav Deronjic, as

20 to how come this happened, that so many people and prisoners of war found

21 themselves in Bratunac. Could you please tell me, you said that you were

22 concerned, and that that was the reason why you went to see Miroslav

23 Deronjic, to ask him about the situation at the time. Was Miroslav

24 Deronjic concerned about the situation?

25 A. I think that at one point in time there was a mistake in

Page 9341

1 interpretation, at least as I heard it. The translation was Rajko Dukic

2 is yelling at us. At least that's what I heard.

3 Q. No, no, no, that's not how it was.

4 A. If that's not important, that's fine.

5 Q. Could you please tell us what did Deronjic say?

6 A. He said Rajko Dukic is setting this up. That was what he said.

7 And I think that it was interpreted differently. Deronjic was definitely

8 concerned himself, since he reacted in that way. And I was concerned, and

9 that's why I came, and he felt uncomfortable too about what was going on

10 in Bratunac and he was definitely concerned about that.

11 Q. You know that these prisoners of war were taken to Zvornik, I

12 suppose you know that?

13 A. I didn't know that at the time.

14 Q. But you are aware of that now?

15 A. Yes, now I am.

16 Q. In answering to Madam Fauveau's questions you said that Deronjic

17 was a high-profile -- had high profile politically. He was one of the

18 vice-presidents of the SDS, which was in power, and that alone meant that

19 he was close to President Karadzic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He was also president of the Regional Board of the SDS, and you

22 said that he was also a member of the Presidency, didn't you say so?

23 A. Yes, and I was also a member ex officio.

24 Q. Do you believe that, given his position, and given his influence,

25 on the 11th of July, President Karadzic, precisely because of those facts,

Page 9342

1 appointed him civilian commissioner for Srebrenica? Would you agree with

2 that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could it be said that Miroslav Deronjic, a person of great

5 influence, who was concerned for the situation in Bratunac, used his

6 political influence in order to ensure that these prisoners of war be

7 transported from Bratunac to Zvornik?

8 A. I don't think that that's how it was. Had it been that way,

9 Deronjic would have told me this two or three days ago. I told you, I had

10 good communication with Deronjic. We were neighbours. But that he pulled

11 some strings to ensure that the prisoners are transported to Zvornik? I

12 don't think he did that.

13 Q. In your testimony yesterday you said that in that meeting, when

14 you came to see him, you suggested to him that he should use his contacts

15 and talk to people from the top political echelons, this is page 26, lines

16 10 and 11. Do you still remain by what you said?

17 A. You call this a meeting. He and I met in the street, but yes, a

18 meeting can be held in the street too. That was the way we communicated.

19 We would talk whenever and wherever we met. Sometimes it was in the

20 office, sometimes in the street, in a yard. But, yes, I remain by what I

21 said, that I told Deronjic, "Listen, see whether you can use your

22 contacts, your channels, to see what's going on. How come there are so

23 many buses in Bratunac?"

24 Because I had no communication with the state leadership, and

25 that's what we were discussing.

Page 9343

1 Q. Is it your conclusion that he didn't do what he said to you that

2 he did?

3 A. The mere fact that we met in the evening and that there were no

4 longer any buses in the morning, meaning that the buses left Bratunac

5 overnight, was sufficient to me. I didn't check to see whether Deronjic

6 made a call, didn't make a call. What burdened me were these buses and

7 they left Bratunac overnight, and I said, "Thank God, they're gone from

8 Bratunac."

9 This happened very soon after the meeting with Deronjic. I saw

10 him perhaps at 10.00 in the evening, and the buses were gone in the

11 morning.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sarapa.

15 Mr. Krgovic.

16 Let's go into open session.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into open session first, please. Unless

19 there is a need to remain in private session, which I don't think is the

20 case.

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, transcript page 50,

24 line 14 [as interpreted], there is a -- an expression there which is not

25 consistent with what the witness said. So if I may clarify this with the

Page 9346

1 can either survive or disappear," referring to the Muslim people. Do you

2 recall him saying that?

3 A. Yes, I do recall him saying that.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have nothing further at this point.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

7 Witness, that brings your testimony to an end, because there are

8 no further questions for you from parties or from the Bench, which means

9 that you are free to go. Our staff will assist you to facilitate your

10 return back home at the earliest. On behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to

11 thank you for having come over to give testimony. And I also wish you a

12 safe journey back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye. Exhibits? I suppose there is

16 the pseudonym sheet.

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, it's P02484.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I won't even dare ask if there are any objections.

19 That is admitted and will remain under seal. No further exhibits?

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: [Microphone not activated]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, any exhibits from the Defence teams?

22 Mr. Ostojic.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. We would tender the

24 statement of February 25, 1998, as 2D81, between Mr. Ruez and this

25 witness. But I'd also like for the record, just so that it's clear,

Page 9347

1 Mr. Vanderpuye, in his redirect examination, led the witness with respect

2 to whether he was asked certain questions, and I think it's important --

3 as a further basis for that statement being included is that the statement

4 is clear that Mr. Ruez was talking about events, as he himself says on the

5 first page of that documents, events which, "Followed the fall of the

6 enclave in Srebrenica in July of 1995." We could talk about it maybe off

7 the record to see what the point was asking -- regarding this, but I think

8 the Court saw some evidence that we tried to lead with this witness, that

9 he did not mention Mr. Beara at all in that statement in any time until

10 2003, but I think it's important for that reason, and also because we

11 relied on the statement extensively as we have with another witness which

12 I think the Court admitted their -- that statement. So by the same

13 principle, we would ask the Court to accept that statement.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, we do object to that. I'm not entirely

16 clear on what my learned friend's objection is with respect to the

17 redirect examination. Is it related to the witness's --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Sorry to interrupt you, but I think the

19 submission is not an objection to the -- your redirect, as such. But he

20 is using your redirect as a further reason why the statement should be

21 admitted into evidence. That's how I understood Mr. Ostojic.

22 If I have misunderstood you, Mr. Ostojic, then correct me, please.

23 MR. OSTOJIC: No, I am grateful, Mr. President, that you, in fact,

24 did understand me directly.

25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Then I think I do understand my learned

Page 9348

1 colleague, but then I disagree what he is suggesting the basis of

2 admissibility is. Unless he is suggesting that the document in some

3 respect contradicts what the witness testified to on redirect examination,

4 it only really confirms what was on the redirect examination. It wouldn't

5 constitute an independent basis of admissibility. And then with respect

6 to the content of the document itself, to the extent that it was offered

7 on cross-examination it should be admissable to the extent that was used.

8 But that's a different question, as to whether the entirety of the prior

9 statement should be introduced into evidence.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we are at different frequencies here. I

11 mean, it's -- I didn't read Mr. Ostojic's submission the way you are

12 reading it. The way I read it was, we made use extensively of this

13 statement of the witness to -- or this transcript of the interview with

14 Mr. Ruez during our cross-examination, amongst which we even used the same

15 transcript, same interview, to prove or to suggest, submit that during

16 that interview the witness never mentioned his client. But that's not the

17 only reason why they are submitting -- they are submitting that the

18 interview should -- should be introduced as an exhibit. Then in addition

19 he is also saying the Prosecution themselves also asked questions on

20 redirect, which strengthen our argument or our submission that the same

21 statement should be admitted into evidence. This is basically -- but

22 anyway, I think we can leave it at that. I need to consult with my

23 colleagues, of course, and we'll soon come back to you.

24 Any other -- soon come back to you in a matter of a minute or so.

25 Are there any other exhibits that any of the Defence teams wishes to

Page 9349

1 tender? No. Okay.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: As you may have imagined, we were discussing,

4 amongst ourselves, how positions shift from time to time. This is one

5 classic example. Both Prosecution and Defence. We are admitting the

6 statement or interview transcript, call it whatever you like. We'll give

7 it a number. We are also making it clear that we are admitting it because

8 there has been extensive reference to it. It's not being admitted as a

9 substitute or in substitution of the witness's oral testimony here. So

10 we're making that clear to you. But it's being introduced in evidence.

11 All right. Yes, it has to be under seal, obviously. I mean, needless to

12 say.

13 Yes, I see three persons standing. Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Josse, and

14 Mr. Bourgon.

15 MR. JOSSE: My point's just been dealt with.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I just -- if -- I think the next

18 witness, it would be appropriate to have a caution for -- I believe, a

19 Rule 90 caution.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's very useful for us to know, because

21 again, I mean, I didn't have a clue.

22 Mr. Bourgon.

23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. My -- at this time I

24 would just like to address the Trial Chamber's decision to admit the

25 interview in evidence. And the Trial Chamber you just stated that this

Page 9350

1 was because it was extensively used in cross-examination. With all due

2 respect, I do not believe that this is what my colleague requested,

3 representing Mr. Beara, and that this statement is being used -- is being

4 introduced, one, not to the contents or not for the truth of its content,

5 but for impeachment purposes, and not because it was extensively used

6 because if we take a ruling any statement extensively used in

7 cross-examination can be admitted at the request of everybody, then we

8 will end up with every statement being admitted. We want to make sure

9 that if the Defence believes that a statement will assist the Trial

10 Chamber, because there was contradictions between what the witness said on

11 the stand and what he said in his statement, then the Defence makes that

12 request and it's perfectly legitimate for a statement to go in. But for

13 any other reasons we believe that this would the be the case. Thank you,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I actually agree with Mr. Bourgon on that point;

17 however, I don't believe in arguing after a decision has been made.

18 MR. OSTOJIC: Most respectfully, Mr. President, just to clarify an

19 issue, our position has not changed. It's the Court's ruling. We

20 believe, with all due respect that changed from the outset when the Court

21 said they would not accept statements such as this and we have used it

22 with most witnesses. The Court having changed that rule, in our view, we

23 also, as a basis, decided to ask the Court to bring that in. We thought

24 we had it sufficiently. Then the other basis is, I thought it was

25 important, at the very least that first page, so the Court can see in an

Page 9351

1 attempt to, maybe an argument will be made by the Prosecutor, what exactly

2 was the focus of Mr. Ruez's questioning, and that he specifically said, as

3 I quoted, that it was following events after the fall of the enclave. Not

4 on July 9th, but it was after the 11th. Just to make that clear for the

5 record.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. We close the matter

7 here. In the past we have admitted prior statements of witnesses in part,

8 and sometimes in whole, depending on what we consider to be in the best

9 interests of justice at the time. So do expect our position to shift from

10 time to time, because we will all decide on what we consider to be in the

11 interests of justice.

12 So, next witness. Do you agree, by the way, with the suggestion

13 of Mr. McCloskey that we refer the witness to Rule 90?

14 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

15 MR. OSTOJIC: With all due respect it the request, would I like a

16 little further information why the Prosecutor now thinks that a Rule 90

17 warning is necessary, given, in light of what the Prosecutor has indicated

18 to this witness on several occasions in their interview. Has something

19 changed that we should be aware of? Because in the interview it's quite

20 plain what the position of the Prosecution was when they interviewed this

21 witness approximately seven years ago. So I would just like a further

22 basis as to why they think they should give him that warning.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest if you would like to contribute to

24 the discussion, Mr. McCloskey, that we go into private session, and you

25 say what you wish to say. If you wish to state anything. Do you agree we

Page 9354

1 that will be your solemn commitment with us.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-161

5 [Witness answered through interpreter].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, sir. Make yourself

7 comfortable, please take a seat.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me explain two things before you start giving

10 evidence. First of all, the Prosecution asked on your behalf to have two

11 protective measures put in place. One is the use of a pseudonym, the

12 other is visual, face distortion. As I understand it, this -- these

13 measures have already been explained to you. Is that correct?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are happy with this arrangement?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The other thing is the following: We have, in this

18 Tribunal, adopted what is commonly referred to worldwide as the "right."

19 I will explain to you, it's not an absolute right, but the right of any

20 witness not to incriminate himself or herself in the course of his or her

21 testimony. So what I want to tell you is that if and when you are asked

22 questions, the answer to which might tend to incriminate you, if you

23 believe so, then you can ask us to exempt you from answering such

24 questions to the extent that they may tend to incriminate you.

25 However, as I explained already, this is not an absolute right.

Page 9355

1 According to our rules, we can, after hearing what you have to say, your

2 submission, compel you to answer such questions. If, however, we do

3 compel you to answer such a question, any testimony that you give in

4 answering such questions shall not be used as evidence against you in any

5 subsequent prosecution, except in one instance. That's if we catch you

6 giving false testimony, in which case you can then be proceeded against

7 for perjury and whatever you would have stated would be taken into

8 account.

9 Is that clear to you? Do you understand the import of this

10 advisory that I am giving you?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So I am now going to leave you in the hands, capable

13 hands of Mr. McCloskey, and then he will be followed by the equally

14 capable hands of -- equally capable lawyers in the various Defence teams.

15 We will not finish with you today for sure, so prepare yourself to be here

16 again on Monday, when we hope to be able to finish your testimony.

17 One final thing: Between now and Monday, and until you finish

18 your testimony, you are absolutely prohibited from communicating with

19 anyone or letting anybody communicate with you to even discuss the

20 substance of your testimony here. Is that clear?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do I have your undertaking that you will abide by

23 this ruling?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

Page 9356

1 Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. First thing I'll give to you is what we

5 call --

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. P02485, it's a sheet of paper. Can you tell me if that's your

8 name, if that's you on that paper?

9 A. No.

10 Q. That happens sometimes. Is that your last name?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Well, that will have to work for now, I think. We'll

13 try to correct that a little later. It's -- your name is similar to that,

14 I take it, but we'll -- we'll figure that out.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Might be a good idea to go into closed session to

16 start out with, Mr. President?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session straight

18 away. May I see that paper or has it been handed back to the Prosecution?

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9357

11 Page 9357 redacted. Private session.

Page 9358

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY:

20 Q. Witness, I'd like to take you now to July, 1995. To that time

21 period historically when Muslim men and -- or Muslim women and children

22 and elderly men were being transported out of Potocari through Bratunac

23 and onward. Can you tell us, at about the time that that was happening

24 did you decide to make a trip up towards Konjevic Polje?

25 A. Yes. It was one of -- on one of those days that I went to

Page 9359

1 Konjevic Polje and saw the buses that were going from Bratunac towards

2 Konjevic Polje. They were full. Full of adults, elderly people, women,

3 children, and so on.

4 Q. And why, on -- on that day did you go up towards Konjevic Polje?

5 A. That day I heard that some things were happening, so I went to

6 see, just simply to see what was going on.

7 Q. When you say "some things" did you get -- what in particular, if

8 you were given any particular information?

9 A. That there was fighting, that there were dead, and so on and so

10 forth.

11 Q. Okay. And do you remember roughly what time of day you went up in

12 that direction?

13 A. Sometime in the afternoon.

14 Q. And ...

15 A. At about 2.00 or 3.00 p.m., maybe later even, I don't know.

16 Q. Okay. And why would you go up to an area where you heard fighting

17 was going on?

18 A. Out of curiosity.

19 Q. Isn't that a -- wouldn't that be dangerous?

20 A. No, the road was open. There was a lot of civilian police at the

21 check-points on the road.

22 Q. And did you go by yourself or was anyone with you?

23 A. I was alone in my car.

24 Q. At some point on that trip did you witness an incident along that

25 road somewhere?

Page 9360

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us where that was and what you saw?

3 A. When I was passing through Kravica, near the agricultural, or the

4 farmers' cooperative building, I saw a killing. Where a man in a green

5 camouflage uniform was taking five men with him, and he ordered them to

6 lie on their stomachs and then he shot them in the back.

7 Q. And where were you when you saw this happen?

8 A. On the road, just across from the farmers' cooperative building.

9 Q. Were you moving or were you still?

10 A. I was moving, but when I saw that, I was standing there for a

11 certain amount of time.

12 Q. Okay. When you say you were standing there, were you outside

13 standing or were you in a vehicle?

14 A. I didn't come out of the vehicle, no.

15 Q. Okay. So you stopped your vehicle, and what else did you see

16 after you stopped your vehicle?

17 A. I saw the killings, and then to the right of where the killing

18 took place I saw a pile of dead bodies.

19 Q. Where were these pile of dead bodies in relation to the

20 agricultural warehouse building?

21 A. In front of the actual building.

22 Q. Did you see any -- besides bodies and this one person that had

23 shot five men, did you see anybody, anybody else walking around the area?

24 A. There were people in camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. Can you give us a rough idea of how many?

Page 9361

1 A. About 10, 15, perhaps even 20.

2 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How long did you stay there in your -- in your car?

5 A. After seeing the killings, that incident, I was a bit disturbed,

6 upset, so I really don't know how long I stayed there.

7 Q. Did you see any vehicles in front of the warehouse?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And what did you do after seeing this?

10 A. I continued on to Konjevic Polje, then I returned via Kravica

11 again, and I went to work.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can ask him to speak up, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY:

15 Q. Witness, the interpreters are having a little bit hard time

16 hearing you, so you might want to scooch up a little bit and speak up, if

17 you can.

18 Now, do you know roughly what time it was when you saw the killing

19 at the warehouse?

20 A. I don't know what time it was, but it was in the afternoon.

21 Q. And when you came back, did you stop again, or just keep driving

22 at the warehouse?

23 A. I just continued driving.

24 Q. And where did you go?

25 A. To Bratunac.

Page 9362

1 Q. And what did you do when you got to Bratunac?

2 A. I don't know what you mean.

3 Q. Just -- just generally, do you remember where you went?

4 A. I went to my office, thinking about what I had seen.

5 Q. Roughly, what -- what time of day is this now?

6 A. Well, towards the evening.

7 Q. Okay. So what's the next thing you remember doing that evening?

8 A. That evening they called me from the municipality to report to the

9 SDS premises, where Colonel Beara was awaiting me.

10 Q. Do you know who called you?

11 A. I don't.

12 Q. Okay. And did you know who Colonel Beara was at the time?

13 A. I knew that he was a senior officer of the army of Republika

14 Srpska. I didn't know him personally though. I didn't know where he

15 worked, what he did.

16 Q. Had you seen him around the Bratunac area at that time period

17 before this phone call came in?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember when you'd saw him?

20 A. I think that I saw him a day or two prior to that. I guess once

21 in passing, by the Fontana Hotel, and another time I think it was in the

22 hotel.

23 Q. Do you remember about what time you received this phone call to go

24 see Colonel Beara?

25 A. I think it was after 9.00 p.m., maybe even later.

Page 9363

1 Q. Had you had any drink or dinner with anyone before receiving this

2 call?

3 A. Yes. With Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin. I sat with him, but I can't

4 remember whether we only had drinks or we ate.

5 Q. Okay. And what did you talk about?

6 A. You mean with Mr. Borovcanin?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Well, we talked about the death of a policeman from a special

9 unit, about a young man who was also a member of the Special Police Unit,

10 who had burned his hand as he was seizing a barrel from a Muslim man. He

11 told me that he was supposed to go to Zvornik, because I had asked him. I

12 said to him, "I heard that the vehicles who travelled from Bratunac to

13 Konjevic Polje were the vehicles of the special unit, which drove so fast

14 by me that I had to stop, and a policeman, a civilian policeman told me

15 that Zvornik was about to fall and that the special unit because supposed

16 to go there to defend Zvornik.

17 So I put a question to Mr. Borovcanin, and he said that he had

18 received an order, and that he was due to go there urgently. He was just

19 waiting for this young man with a bandaged hand. This is where we parted,

20 and then came a phone call to go see Mr. Beara.

21 Q. Okay. So when you told us that, "He told me that he was supposed

22 to go to Zvornik," you were referring to Mr. Borovcanin?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was anyone else with you and Mr. Borovcanin at this time?

25 A. Yes. I'm just not sure. I think that Miroslav Deronjic was

Page 9364

1 there, Srbislav Davidovic, the policeman with the bandaged hand. Maybe

2 somebody else was there, but I don't remember. There were several of us,

3 not just the two of us.

4 Q. Where was this?

5 A. At the restaurant Jasen.

6 Q. Did you hear the circumstances around the incident where the

7 person burned his hands grabbing a rifle held by a Muslim?

8 A. I heard about that. That a Muslim grabbed a rifle from a

9 policeman and killed him, shot a burst of fire at him. So the other

10 policeman grabbed the barrel of the rifle and burned his hand.

11 Q. And who told you that story?

12 A. I heard that from that young man that evening. He told me this

13 story. And prior to that I heard it from somebody else, but I don't

14 remember from whom.

15 Q. Was Mr. Borovcanin present when that story was told?

16 A. I am not sure, but I think so.

17 Q. Do you remember Mr. Borovcanin telling you anything about that

18 incident, where the person burned his hands and the police officer was

19 killed?

20 A. It was discussed that evening, but I truly don't remember what

21 Miroslav said, what Mr. Borovcanin said, what I said. We talked a lot.

22 Q. Was there --

23 A. This was long time ago, so I've forgotten a lot of it.

24 Q. Was there any discussion of the killings that you had seen at the

25 cooperative building, the warehouse in Kravica?

Page 9365

1 A. Yes, I told them about what I had seen, with some fear, but I told

2 them.

3 Q. And was Mr. Borovcanin present when you told that, what you'd

4 seen?

5 A. I think he was.

6 Q. From what you recall, when you heard the story about the burned

7 hands and the police officer getting killed, was that related at all to

8 the Kravica warehouse?

9 A. I don't know. Because I didn't see the incident with the

10 policeman when one was killed and the other one was burned. I saw the

11 killings, so I can't say whether it was related.

12 Q. Did they -- okay. Did they tell you that night at -- when you

13 were together, where this burned hand and police killing incident took

14 place?

15 A. No, I don't know that.

16 Q. Okay. Let's get back to the call that you received to go see

17 Colonel Beara. What did you do after receiving that call?

18 A. I went from my office to the SDS premises.

19 Q. Okay. Did you walk?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And tell us about what -- what was there and what you did when you

22 got to the SDS premises.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted). I went there, I came,

25 I saw two military policemen in the office of the secretary. I introduced

Page 9366

1 myself. I said that I had received a call from Colonel Beara to report to

2 him. They let me in, into the office of Miroslav Deronjic. I saw there

3 Colonel Beara and another two officers of the army of Republika Srpska. I

4 told them, (redacted).

5 You asked to see me."

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Please redact immediately.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: We may want to redact the reference to the utility

8 company that occurred.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And even the distance from his office to the SDS

10 office.

11 Witness, please, we are doing our utmost to shield your -- your

12 identity. So try to avoid mentioning names or details that could reveal

13 your identity.

14 So let's continue.

15 We are going to redact what you said in any case. So it will not

16 be available to the public.

17 Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Did you recognise those other two officers that were in Miroslav

20 Deronjic's office?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Besides Colonel Beara and these two other officers, was there

23 anybody else in that office and -- besides yourself, of course?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened in there.

Page 9367

1 A. When I introduced myself to Colonel Beara he asked me what kind of

2 machinery I had, and also manpower. I told him that we had people

3 employed or mobilised, those who were not fit for the army. We had two

4 FAP trucks, and a small excavator, called SKIP.

5 Q. Okay.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to interrupt you like this, Mr. McCloskey.

7 But let's go into private session for just a remark I would like to make,

8 soliciting your response to it.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9368

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for that interruption, Witness.

15 Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. Thank you. You just had described the Colonel, Colonel Beara, the

18 kind of equipment you had and the manpower.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can go into public.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in public session now. We are.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

22 Q. And was anything else said that you remember?

23 A. I asked Colonel Beara why he wanted to know about the machinery we

24 had. I said, "What needs to be done?" He said, "It needs to be prepared."

25 It needed to go to Milici. Dead people have to be buried, there will be a

Page 9369

1 lot of dead and they need to be buried.

2 Q. And what did you say?

3 A. I said, "Colonel, we have two dumptrucks and one SKIP excavator.

4 What could they possibly do, of what use could they possibly be and why

5 would we go to Milici, to another municipality?" I asked him whether he

6 had contacted Mr. Rajko Dukic, and then he insolently cursed me and Rajko

7 Dukic and said, "You will be awaiting your further orders with --"

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the end of the

9 sentence.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could finish the end of that sentence again,

11 please. He told you, "You will be awaiting your further orders," and what

12 else?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I was free to go. I went out,

14 went to my office, and then went home. During the night I was informed,

15 most likely from the SDS, I received a phone call to come again to the SDS

16 premises to receive further instructions or orders.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY:

18 Q. About what time of night was this?

19 A. After midnight. It was 1.00 or 2.00 a.m.

20 Q. Okay. And what did you do?

21 A. Nothing. I got ready, went there, reported. Colonel Beara told

22 me, "You will now go with the military policeman and find a burial

23 location." I told him that there was no way I was going to do that, to

24 look for a location to bury the dead. He said, "Well, there's this

25 military policeman, go with him and go to the location where a grave is to

Page 9370

1 be dug out." We went in a military vehicle to Glogova, near Kravica, some

2 100 to 150 metres from it, we took the old road and then we stopped and

3 the policeman showed me the location where a grave had to be dug out, one,

4 two or three graves. I noted that, and then we returned to Bratunac, and

5 I went home to sleep.

6 Q. Okay. Let me take you back. When you go back to the SDS offices

7 at 1.00 or 2.00 a.m., who was there this time?

8 A. On this occasion it was just Colonel Beara, and the two military

9 policemen that I mentioned.

10 Q. Did you see those two officers that you spoke of before that you

11 saw the previous time you were at the SDS office? I'm sorry I don't think

12 we heard that. We didn't hear your answer because it didn't get picked

13 up.

14 Did you see those other two officers you'd seen with Colonel Beara

15 at your first visit to the SDS?

16 A. The second time I came there I didn't see them. It was just

17 Colonel Beara there. The two policemen were in the next room.

18 Q. All right. Had -- did you get any indication whether or not

19 the -- he or the police, Colonel Beara or the policeman had been drinking?

20 A. There was a bottle of whiskey and a glass in front of Colonel

21 Beara.

22 Q. All right. What did you do the next morning?

23 A. The next morning I went to work, just like any other day. I

24 issued and designed tasks to people who had work obligation. The rest of

25 the men went in a truck, because the other truck was out of order, so we

Page 9371

1 had to bring it back from Glogova, went to Glogova, where a grave was to

2 be dug.

3 Q. About what time did you get to the Glogova grave site?

4 A. Maybe at 9.00 in the morning, around that time.

5 Q. And did you do -- did you or your crew do any work on the grave

6 that morning or that day?

7 A. Nothing was done until the excavator arrived, and it arrived a bit

8 later. Then the operator of construction machinery arrived, the one who

9 operated the excavator, and it was then that this common grave was dug.

10 They began digging.

11 Q. What kind of excavator was this?

12 A. It was ULT, it was a loader excavator. It was not a backhoe

13 excavator. And this is precisely why we were unable to dig three or four

14 graves, because this is a loader. And I think I explained that later to

15 Colonel Beara. And Colonel Beara promised that a backhoe excavator from

16 the -- the brigade would come and that we would continue digging with that

17 backhoe excavator. And that's exactly what happened. This excavator

18 arrived from the direction of Kravica or Konjevic Polje, it was brought on

19 a truck, FAP-18 truck. It was brought on a trailer. The excavator was

20 removed from the trailer, and the trucks turned back and went to Kravica

21 and Konjevic Polje, and the excavator remained there.

22 It was operated by Rade Djurkovic. And Simic, I can't remember

23 his first name. The operator was from the brickworks from Bratunac, as

24 was the equipment.

25 Q. So the ULT was from -- the ULT loader was from where?

Page 9372

1 A. ULT was from the state-owned company called Brickworks Bratunac.

2 Q. Is that Ciglana related to the brickworks?

3 A. Yes, yes. Ciglana is the factory manufacturing bricks.

4 Q. And did you work -- well, did bodies arrive at this grave that

5 day?

6 A. I didn't hear you well.

7 Q. Did bodies arrive at the grave in Glogova that day?

8 A. I think that towards the evening one or two trucks arrived when

9 ULT, the loader, went to Kravica, and the excavator remained at the

10 location in Glogova. It was only on the following days that the trucks

11 starting arriving in large numbers.

12 Q. Do you know where the bodies came from that filled that grave?

13 A. I assume that it was from Kravica.

14 Q. Are you familiar with any other locations where bodies came from

15 up in that area?

16 A. Well, yes. There was a group of workers from the utility company

17 collecting corpses next to the road. There were also corpses in Konjevic

18 Polje that were collected, then there were corpses in Bratunac next to the

19 school, all of those corpses were collected and taken to Glogova.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we stop here for the day, Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I think it's a good idea.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So we stand adjourned until Monday morning.

23 Witness, please remember what I told you and not to speak to

24 anyone about the substance or the events that you are testifying about.

25 Have a nice weekend.

Page 9373

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of March,

3 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 15 March 2012.