1 Tuesday, 24 April 2007
2 [The accused entered court]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody.
8 Madam Registrar, could you kindly call the case, please?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is case number
10 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor v. Vujadin Popovic et al.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All the accused are here, all the Defence
12 teams are present and everyone is present, yes. And Mr. McCloskey and
13 Mr. Vanderpuye for the Prosecution. The witness is already in his place.
14 Mr. Tanic, good afternoon to you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. I hope you've had time for a good
17 rest. We are going to resume your testimony and hopefully finish it
19 WITNESS: Tanacko Tanic [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
22 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon, Judges.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
24 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, colleagues.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon: [Continued]
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tanic.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. You'll be glad to hear I only have a few questions after reading
4 my notes.
5 MR. BOURGON: I would ask, Mr. President, with the assistance of
6 the usher, that a document be given to the witness. It's a document which
7 was given to my colleague from the Prosecution, and it's simply an extract
8 from his interview with the Prosecution. The number of this document in
9 e-court is 1D267, but I don't think it's required to put it on the e-court
10 or the ELMO, as long as the witness can read the little segment I want to
11 refer him to.
12 Q. Mr. Tanic -- can you hear me, Mr. Tanic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. First of all, I'd like to say that this question refers to
15 something you mentioned yesterday in response to a question from the
16 Prosecution. You said that you saw, in Orahovac, a policeman in uniform
17 who was from Doboj. For the purposes of my colleague, that was on page 24
18 yesterday, lines 18 to 21. And I would just like to clarify a bit this
19 issue with you, so I would like you to look at the document which was just
20 given to you. On the first page of this document, where it says at the
21 bottom: "15 of 16", and there is a part of this document which is in a
22 box, and I would just like you to read for yourself what is in that box.
23 And this is -- it comes from your interview that you gave to the Office of
24 the Prosecution in June of 2002. I will read the English version for the
25 sake of the Trial Chamber. Question: "When did you learn that the Doboj
1 police was present at Orahovac?"
2 Answer: "As soon as I arrived, there was a big man. There
3 was a big man in police uniform, a blue uniform, who said he was from
4 Doboj, so they were talking. I did not ask him anything or --" and then
5 it stops there for a second question.
6 Do you read this in your language before you now?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I'd now like to refer you to the third page in the document that
9 you have before you, and this third page bears the number 1 of 155 at the
10 bottom. And again there is a box there which I will read in English, and
11 I would ask you to read it in your own language. And it goes like this:
12 Question: "Okay. Did you meet these men in blue camouflage
13 uniform at Orahovac school?"
14 The response: "On the road in front of the school."
15 Question: "Was he the only one in this -- in such blue uniform or
16 you also noticed some more people in uniforms?"
17 Response: "I don't know. I just spotted him."
18 Question: "Did you speak to him?"
19 Answer: "No, I did not talk to him, but some people around were
20 talking about -- uh-huh. There is a unit from Doboj, and the guy is also
21 from Doboj."
22 Can you read this in your language before you today?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I now refer you to a third segment also in the document that is
25 before you, and this time it begins on the fourth page of the document, at
1 the bottom where it says "2 of 155". For the sake of the interpreters,
2 it's page 87 of the document 1D267.
3 This was just your answer, and it goes as follows: "There was a
4 rumour that a police unit was present, so not military police unit, but
5 regular police unit that was present in the area."
6 Question: "But you did not see any people who were regular police
7 in the area, did you?"
8 You responded by a question: "You mean regular police
10 "The MUP."
11 Your answer was: "Except that one guy, I did not."
12 Did you read this in your language before you today?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, my question is very simple. I would simply like you to
15 confirm that other than this one man or big man dressed in a blue uniform,
16 the possibility of a unit from the MUP being present was nothing but a
17 rumour; is that correct?
18 A. I didn't see anyone except for this one person I told you about.
19 But you can see from this interview that once you mention something, then
20 it goes round in circles. So in various places you have different
21 answers, depending on the approach taken.
22 Q. And the idea, Mr. Tanic, that there was a unit present is only
23 something that you heard, but it was nothing but a rumour; is that
25 A. Yes, that's what I stated, with the exception of that one person I
1 didn't see anyone else. Now, whether he was from there, I don't know
3 Q. Thank you. I move to my next question, and I will ask that the
4 document 3D84 be placed on e-court, please.
5 Mr. Tanic, I will ask you to look in the screen before you- thank
6 you, madam usher, and I have one more question where I need to go back for
7 him to see again.
8 Mr. Tanic, do you recognise the area which is depicted on the
9 screen before you?
10 A. Yes. There's the school, the yard and the cultural centre and the
12 Q. Now, I will ask you to mark just three things on this sketch,
13 again with the assistance of the usher. We will be giving you a pen, and
14 I would simply like you to make a circle where the stairs that you
15 mentioned yesterday are located.
16 A. I can't find my way on this sketch. I can't see the main road
17 here. These stairs are somewhere behind the cultural centre, somewhere
18 there. Whether it's closer to one end of the building or the other, I
19 think it was closer to the end of the building closer to the school. I
20 think so.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you just draw a circle where you put a little mark
22 in red?
23 A. I may be wrong, though, because it seems that if I err by one
24 metre, this can cause a big problem.
25 Q. I understand your concerns, but your answer is fully in the
1 transcript. Now, my second question on this drawing or on this sketch is
2 whether you can tell the Trial Chamber whether the house where you had
3 coffee with two other persons, if that house is to the left of the stairs
4 indicated in red or to the right, meaning not on this sketch.
5 A. I can't see the house on the sketch. It should be somewhere here
6 behind, or rather you can see it from the stairs looking north. The stairs
7 are not facing the road, and from the stairs, which are slanting, you can
8 see the houses, one or two.
9 Q. And I would just ask you to again take the pen that was given to
10 you, changing colours, any other colour, and simply draw -- make an "X" in
11 the general or approximate area where the house was, the house where you
12 had coffee. Just the general area.
13 A. What if I make a mistake? Somewhere here. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you. Now, yesterday you referred to in your testimony to
15 the house of a Mrs. Vidovic, where you went. Can you confirm that the
16 house of Mrs. Vidovic is not found on this sketch?
17 A. It can't be seen, that's for sure.
18 Q. And I would like you to look at the sketch, and you see where you
19 have the word "Krizevici Put Orahovac." Do you see these words?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, on that road, I would like you to put, completely to the
22 right of the sketch, an arrow which indicates the direction where you were
23 walking to reach the house of Ms. Vidovic.
24 A. I don't know now. You have to get out first. I have to reach the
25 Tuzla-Zvornik road. How can I draw a line? I don't know the roads too
1 well. I would have to go out to the main road. That's what I did. Now,
2 where the main road is, I can't see that. So from this road, I went to
3 the main road and then on foot for about a kilometre. They measured the
4 distance to Mira's house. I'll make a mistake, I can't do it. It may
5 appear that I went in the opposite direction. I don't know what to put.
6 Q. And all I'm asking of you, Mr. Tanic, is to indicate whether you
7 were walking towards the left of the sketch or towards the right of the
8 sketch to reach Mrs. Vidovic's house.
9 A. I really don't know. I would have to see where the main road is
10 and where this road joins it. I can't draw it, I simply can't. So I went
11 to the main road, and along that main road on foot, the road going from
12 Tuzla to Zvornik. Mira's house is on the main road. Zvornik-Tuzla or
14 Q. And, Mr. Tanic, the main road, is it on the left of the sketch or
15 on the right of the sketch?
16 A. I don't know. I don't have a good sense of orientation here. Why
17 is that so important? But if it is important, I really don't know the
19 Q. Now, Mr. Tanic, I'm asking you if you stand on that road and you
20 face the Dom Kultur, and you want to go to Mrs. Vidovic's house, do you
21 turn right or do you turn left? That's a very simple question.
22 A. I don't know. I can't answer on the basis of this. I really
23 don't know. I don't know Orahovac very well. I know somehow from the
24 by-road you get close to the school, so I went from this road that passes
25 the school to the main road. Now, which side that is, I don't know. I
1 simply don't know anything on the basis of this sketch. All I can say is
2 that I reached the main road, and her house is one kilometre 200 metres.
3 Somebody measured it, I think. That is the distance, about a kilometre
4 and a half from the school to her house. And I can't tell you now which --
5 where I was standing. You know where the road is. It's still there. I
6 simply can't give you a precise answer. I don't know. I can't orientate
7 myself. I can't show an arrow saying that I went this way or that way. I
8 may make a mistake. So I don't know. So I did go to the main road.
9 Q. I will leave this, Mr. Tanic, and I will simply ask, in the corner
10 of this document, simply to put your initials and today's date, the 24th
11 of April.
12 Thank you, and I don't think -- madam usher, we can save this
13 document as it is, and I would ask the document be introduced in evidence
14 at the end. We can save, and I'll move on to my next question.
15 Mr. Tanic, during your testimony, and I'm not referring you to any
16 statement or interview, or your testimony, but I'm just saying that you
17 made reference to stories that you heard and rumours that you heard. I
18 would simply ask you: Would you agree with me that in that specific
19 period, there were numerous stories and rumours flying around in the area?
20 Would that be a fair statement?
21 A. There were, yes, probably there were various stories. And I
22 mentioned only one here yesterday.
23 Q. Okay. My next question has to do with Mr. Cedo Jovic. You
24 mentioned, in response to one of my questions yesterday, that he was there
25 on the road with you. Can you confirm that Mr. Jovic --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. His task there was to protect those who were detained in the gym;
3 is that correct?
4 A. I don't really know. We were on the road. Now, what he was
5 doing, I don't know. I think I said earlier on, too, that we were on the
6 road to prevent any other people from going inside, civilians and women.
7 Q. Thank you. I have one last question for you, Mr. Tanic. Again, I
8 will ask you to take the document which was handed to you. I don't know
9 if you still have this document before you, and to switch -- to go to the
10 last page of this document.
11 At the bottom of the page in your language, it says "14 of 155".
12 Do you see the text that is in the box? I would like you to read this
13 text for yourself, and I will read the English version. For the sake of
14 the interpreters, this is page 99 of the document in e-court.
15 What you said then is the following: "I don't want to -- to
16 comment any names of any politicians, but it is a known fact that
17 politicians did not do anything to stop this. I mean, civilian
18 authorities in general. All those civilian authorities were aware of what
19 was going, like I was. You know, they did not stop -- they did not do
20 anything to stop it."
21 Do you stand by this comment today?
22 A. I do.
23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. Tanic. I have no further
24 questions. Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. So let's go through the
1 list once more. The Beara team?
2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, we have no questions of this witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Meek. The Borovcanin? Do you
4 confirm that have you no questions? Mr. Stojanovic?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we do confirm, Your Honour,
6 we have no questions for this witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Faveau, for Miletic, you stated yesterday that
8 you wouldn't have. Do you confirm?
9 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse or Mr. Krgovic?
11 MR. JOSSE: No change.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Haynes.
13 MR. HAYNES: Just a few.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
16 Q. Mr. Tanic, you'll be glad to hear your period of giving evidence
17 is almost over. I've just got a few questions for you, and I appear for
18 Vinko Pandurevic who was the commander of the Zvornik Brigade in 1995.
19 Do you understand the phrase "conscientious objector"?
20 A. I don't.
21 Q. In 1992, when mobilisation took place in Zvornik, you were
22 philosophically opposed to fighting, weren't you?
23 A. Yes, I was, and I still am.
24 Q. And because of that, you asked whether you could serve in the
25 military in a non-combat capacity?
1 A. I didn't ask. I couldn't ask. This was due to circumstances that
2 the events took such a turn, but I see that you're heading towards asking
3 me how I had a rifle. I said in my statement, I pointed out, because
4 somebody from the rear came and said the prisoners are escaping, and that
5 was the only reason. And I believed it, and that's what I did. I didn't
6 go there with a rifle to do I don't know what. I -- that is how I spent
7 the whole war. And conscientious objector is an expression that I'm not
8 familiar with, but I realise now where you're going.
9 Q. Yes. That wasn't where I was going. I was going to suggest to
10 you that nobody gave you any difficulties in providing you with a
11 non-combat role throughout the three years of the war, did they?
12 A. [No verbal response]
13 Q. I think you may have to repeat your answer, because it hasn't
14 appeared on the transcript and the interpreters haven't picked it up. Did
15 you say nobody did give you any difficulty in providing you with a
16 non-combat role throughout the war?
17 A. Well, the whole war was a difficulty. Nobody had a permanent
18 position throughout the war. There were no guarantees, no rules.
19 Q. Your role was as a cashier in the financial services of the
20 Zvornik Brigade, wasn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I think you may have already told us, but in case you haven't,
23 you had a small office on the ground floor of the Standard building?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were not required to stay in the barracks overnight, and you
1 frequently went home on your bicycle, didn't you?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. Indeed, even during the course of the day, you --
4 A. It's not -- it's not that I asked for permission. I went AWOL.
5 There was a risk involved. I never asked anyone for permission to go
6 home. I just went.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, your direct superior as a cashier was the chief
8 of financial services, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And for most of the war, that was a man named Drago Sakotic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And financial services was part of the organ for logistics, wasn't
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that included not just finances, but medical services, the
16 quartermaster's stores and the like?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about Mijatovic Miladin. He was a
19 man who, at the start of the war, was a battalion commander in Baljkovica,
20 wasn't he?
21 A. I don't know where exactly he was a battalion commander.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know that he was injured in 1992 and spent much
23 of the war in hospital and convalescing?
24 A. I know that he had been wounded.
25 Q. And like you, he was assigned at Standard, non-combat duties,
1 wasn't he?
2 A. I suppose so.
3 Q. But he was not your superior, was he?
4 A. No, he wasn't.
5 Q. And he had no authority to give you an order on the 14th of July,
6 did he?
7 A. No, and I didn't even understand it as an order.
8 Q. Thank you, that's very helpful. Was Drago Sakotic present at
9 Standard on the 14th of July, when you got in the truck and went to
11 A. I don't know. I can't remember. At Standard, I don't think he
12 was there.
13 Q. There was another man from whom you sometimes took instructions.
14 His name was Petko Milosevic. Was he there?
15 A. I can't answer that question. I really don't know. In that
16 period, some changes occurred, a hand-over -- takeover between Drago and
17 Petko, but I don't know exactly at what time. I don't know who was there
19 Q. Well, can I ask you this: Did you verify with any superior
20 officer that it was okay for you to do what Mijatovic Miladin suggested?
21 A. I did not. I've already stated that. I wasn't even thinking. He
22 just came, said in passing, "Take your rifle and go." It was not a
23 classic order. I heard people were running away. I took my rifle and
24 went, and the rest of the story you've already heard.
25 Q. Thank you. Just one last question: Did you ever report to Drago
1 Sakotic what had happened on the 14th of July?
2 A. I don't recall.
3 Q. Or any other of your superiors?
4 A. I don't know, I don't know.
5 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. Tanic. I have no more questions for
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have
8 a re-examination?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, we have no re-examination. Thank you, Mr.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Judge Kwon?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just apologise to Counsel
13 Stojanovic, because in those notes of mine, I had written something of a
14 personal nature, and there was a second paragraph saying that he asked the
15 same question as the Prosecutor. I'm sorry, I was in two different
16 positions, in two different stages, in the Prosecution stage and the
17 Defence stage. I want to ask, is it appropriate that -- and it's very
18 difficult to be on two chairs. I don't know. I mean -- and what does it
19 mean for the future? If I'm a Prosecution witness, can I also be a
20 Defence witness? That's what I wanted to ask, that's all.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm afraid we cannot provide you with an answer to
22 any of your questions, Mr. Tanic. Your testimony ends here, but of course
23 you're free to inquire with the Victims and Witnesses Unit.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we bid you goodbye, Mr. Tanic, may I take you
1 back, please, to the last two questions by Mr. Haynes. The first one
2 was: "Did you ever report to Drago Sakotic what had happened on the 14th
3 of July?" And --
4 A. I don't even know whether Drago Sakotic was coming to Standard at
5 the time at all. There was a transition of duties between chiefs.
6 Drago Sakotic sometimes came to the brigade to report and then went to the
7 municipality. Whether he was in that same status in that period, I'm not
8 sure. Whether Petko came to replace him after these events, I can't
9 remember now. I don't know whether in that period he was present at
10 Standard, whether he was visiting.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That confirms your previous answer, which was only
12 of three words: "I don't recall," as it appears on the transcript, was
13 correct. And then Mr. Haynes asked you his very last question: "Or, in
14 other words, did you ever report to any other of your superiors?" What
15 did you answer to that question? If I were to put it again to you: Did
16 you, by any chance, ever report the events of the 14th of July to any of
17 your superiors, what would your answer be?
18 A. I don't know whether I did. I talked with the chief of finance
19 about my work, the job I was doing. I didn't report to him about other
20 things. I would just inform him about the state of affairs in the
21 treasury, and I could have related the events to him, perhaps, but it was
22 not a traditional report.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So that brings your testimony to an end, Mr. Tanic,
24 which also means that you are free to go. Our staff will escort you out
25 of this courtroom and then give you all the assistance you require to
1 facilitate your return back home at the earliest. On behalf of the Trial
2 Chamber, my colleagues, I wish to thank you for having come to give
3 evidence, and I wish you a safe journey back home.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Exhibits, Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: We have none, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Bourgon?
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to have admitted
10 in evidence the sketch which was marked by the witness. The original
11 number was 3D94. I would also like to -- sorry, 3D84, 84. And I would
12 also like to have admitted the 3D84 itself. So the blank version as well
13 as the one that was marked. And I guess the number will be 3DIC --
14 THE REGISTRAR: Ninety-four.
15 MR. BOURGON: -- 94. Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I take it there are no other documents
17 to be tendered, so that concludes the evidence of Mr. Tanic. I didn't ask
18 whether you object to the two documents.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no objection.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So the next witness was also a live, a viva voce
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have an update on how long this witness
23 will take? Mr. Haynes spoke to me briefly, but we do have another witness
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We can try to update. I have the Popovic team, 20
1 minutes, Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Excuse me, I had not seen the exhibits. It was
3 the word -- I didn't hear it. Ten minutes, 10 minutes, excuse me.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The Beara team, 45 minutes?
5 MR. MEEK: Possibly 30, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: The Nikolic team, one hour and a half?
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Up to an hour perhaps, Your Honour.
8 It depends on the examination-in-chief.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And the Miletic team, 10 minutes?
10 MS. FAVEAU: We have no questions for this witness, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?
12 MR. JOSSE: Can I check this is 137, please?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct.
14 MR. JOSSE: We have got nothing for 137.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And then Pandurevic Defence team?
16 MR SARAPA: Around 45 minutes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's where you were, but our rough guess is we
18 will use less of that time.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Jeremic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
23 start giving evidence. Before you do so, you're required to make a solemn
24 declaration that in the course of your testimony you will be testifying
25 and speaking the truth. Please read out that following declaration aloud
1 and that will be your undertaking with us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: NEBOJSA JEREMIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer is present in the courtroom and will
7 proceed with his examination-in-chief, after which we will have some
8 cross-examination from the Defence teams.
9 Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you and
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
13 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
14 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I would just ask you if you would to keep
15 your voice up, if you could, and maybe move just a little bit closer to
16 the microphone so we don't miss anything you have to say. Okay?
17 Would you please state and spell your name for the record?
18 A. Nebojsa, N-e-b-o-j-s-a. Jeremic, my last name, J-e-r-e-m-i-c.
19 Q. And where were you born and raised, sir?
20 A. I was born in Zvornik, and I grew up there.
21 Q. And you are a lawyer by training; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what has your peace-time profession been?
24 A. I worked at the tax administration in Zvornik.
25 Q. And just approximately how long have you worked in that capacity,
2 A. You mean before the war?
3 Q. Before the war and after the war. Just in total, approximately
4 how long have you worked in that job?
5 A. Twenty-one years.
6 Q. Okay. Sir, I want to review with you very briefly your military
7 service history, and if you would just, when I'm done, correct me if
8 I've -- if I've misstated anything, please. You were mobilised in May of
9 1992, and you served as an infantryman. Then you were assigned to
10 register refugees in the Zvornik area?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. After that, you served as an infantryman again in December of
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at some point in the spring of 1993, you transferred to a
16 particular unit of the Zvornik Brigade; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, the name of your
19 specialised unit or your particular unit?
20 A. I was transferred to the service for combatting crime with the
21 Zvornik Brigade, and that belonged to the military police company.
22 Q. Okay. And just briefly, can you describe how your transfer to
23 that unit came about?
24 A. A friend of mine, Goran Bogdanovic, had already transferred to
25 that unit before me, and since they needed another soldier, he suggested
1 that I transfer too.
2 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who the commander of the
3 military police company was?
4 A. Miomir Jasikovac.
5 Q. And to whom did Mr. Jasikovac report?
6 A. The chief of the security, Drago Nikolic.
7 Q. And where was your unit based, sir?
8 A. At the barracks, Standard, in Zvornik.
9 Q. And did you have your own office there, sir, your unit, that is?
10 A. Yes, I did. My service had its own office.
11 Q. And what floor of the Standard barracks was that located on? Just
12 the floor.
13 A. Ground floor.
14 Q. I'd like you to take a few moments, please, and just describe the
15 function of your crime prevention unit for the Trial Chamber. First of
16 all, just what kinds of crimes did your unit deal with, for example?
17 A. My service dealt with criminal acts within the Zvornik Brigade. In
18 other words, our duty was -- in fact, we were responsible for the fighting
19 men of the Zvornik Brigade, any criminal acts that they may have committed
20 fell within our purview for purposes of investigation.
21 Q. And would this involve crimes of all levels of seriousness or only
22 of a particular level of seriousness, sir? And if it's easier just to
23 describe some examples of types of crimes you dealt with, then feel free
24 to do so as well.
25 A. Well, we dealt with all criminal acts committed by members of the
1 Zvornik Brigade, and I mean mobilised fighting men. That included
2 murders; desertion; infliction of wounds; self-infliction of wounds; or
3 self-injury; thefts; absence without official leave; similar things.
4 Q. Okay. And when you describe murders, sir, are you referring to
5 murders that occurred between a Zvornik member and another Zvornik member,
6 Zvornik Brigade member?
7 A. Yes, that's what I meant.
8 Q. And just generally speaking in 1995, how busy would you say your
9 unit was?
10 A. Well, the service was always busy in the past years before 1995
11 and in 1995, and the reason, in my opinion, is that it was a large brigade
12 and there was always work for us. Criminal acts were committed all the
13 time, or misdemeanors, so that we were very busy.
14 Q. You just referred to "us." Other than yourself and
15 Mr. Bogdanovic, who else was in your unit?
16 A. When I said "we," I meant the crime prevention service. That
17 included me, Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic.
18 Q. And what types of tasks would you personally perform in connection
19 with your duties, sir?
20 A. Most of the time, we were taking statements from soldiers. I'm
21 speaking of the soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade. We wrote orders in the
22 name of battalion commanders. Most often that concerned failure to show
23 up at the front line. We wrote orders in the name of the brigade
24 commander, but also criminal reports. We gathered all the necessary
25 documentation that must accompany criminal reports, such as statements by
1 perpetrators, statements by witnesses, and if the criminal act concerned
2 was more serious, such as a murder, then we worked in cooperation with the
3 civilian police, that is, with the scene-of-crime officers who would
4 photograph and sketch the crime scene while we took statements from
5 witnesses and the perpetrator. We would take a description of the body
6 from the hospital and we would seize the rifle because it was a rifle that
7 was most often used as a weapon, and we sent all the documentation to the
8 military prosecution's office, together with a criminal report.
9 Q. Okay. And, sir, in cases where charges would be brought, who
10 actually drafted those charges?
11 A. I would draft them, as did Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic.
12 Q. And, sir, you refer to orders that you would draft under the
13 signature of the brigade commander. Could you just give the Trial Chamber
14 a couple of examples of the types of orders that you would draft, or your
15 colleagues would draft?
16 A. We would write orders by the brigade commander relating to certain
17 more serious offences committed by members of the brigade. We wrote when
18 the punishment was up to 60 days in prison because, to the best our
19 knowledge, the brigade commander had the right to punish a soldier with a
20 prison term up to 60 days, military prison.
21 Q. And, sir, just to be clear, to your knowledge and understanding
22 did the brigade commander have that authority independent of any decision
23 by the military prosecutor's office?
24 A. I was not aware of that.
25 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure. When you say you weren't aware
1 of that, are you saying you don't know whether the brigade commander had
2 that authority or are you saying something else? And I can rephrase the
3 question slightly. Maybe that will help.
4 In your experience, would the brigade need to await approval from
5 the military prosecutor's office before issuing charges or a sentencing
6 order like the one you described, sentencing someone to 60 days in
7 military imprisonment?
8 A. As far as I know, the brigade did not have to wait for approval
9 from the military courts.
10 Q. Now, sir, who signed off on the criminal charges which you and
11 your colleagues wrote up?
12 A. The chief of security, Drago Nikolic.
13 Q. And did you or your two colleagues have the authority on your own
14 to initiate an investigation or draw up charges against a soldier?
15 A. No, we didn't. As far as I know, we didn't.
16 Q. And so who would direct you to do so, sir?
17 A. The chief of security, Drago Nikolic.
18 Q. And during the course of carrying out your various tasks, sir,
19 would you keep Drago Nikolic informed of your progress?
20 A. Yes, we would inform him. He was the chief, and we had to keep
21 him informed.
22 Q. Now, on a day-to-day basis, can you describe how you and your
23 colleagues would receive your orders?
24 A. Every morning, we would inform the chief of security of the
25 situation in the military detention, and then he would go, I think, to
1 talk to the brigade commander, where the reporting was taking place. And
2 after that, we would go to his office or he would call us up by phone and
3 hand down instructions as to what we should do.
4 Q. Now, sir, what was your understanding and experience in the
5 brigade as to any daily meetings that Drago Nikolic may have had with the
6 brigade commander, Mr. Pandurevic?
7 A. I said that I never attended those meetings, so I don't know how
8 these agreements and discussions took place and what they discussed. I
9 just know that after this reporting, the chief would give us instructions
10 as to what to do, that is, a briefing, actually, after the briefing.
11 Q. And you mentioned that on some occasions you would go to
12 Drago Nikolic's office to receive your orders. On any occasion, would you
13 see Mr. Jasikovac there?
14 A. Yes, I would.
15 Q. And on those occasions in the morning, what was Mr. Jasikovac
16 doing in Mr. Nikolic's office?
17 A. He was -- would also come to receive instructions for his work.
18 Q. Now, sir, in Drago Nikolic's absence, who gave you and your
19 colleagues orders?
20 A. His deputy, Milorad Trbic.
21 Q. Now, sir, I want to focus your attention in a different area for
22 the next few questions. I want to turn your attention to the time
23 immediately following the fall of the Srebrenica enclave. No doubt you
24 recall that period of time.
25 Can you tell the Trial Chamber where you were spending your days
1 and nights during that period of time?
2 A. I spent my days and nights in the barracks in Standard. There was
3 an alert situation, and we were all down there.
4 Q. And do you recall, sir, at some point after the fall of
5 Srebrenica, seeing some buses while you were at the Standard base?
6 A. Yes, I did see -- see them.
7 Q. And can you please --
8 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Sorry to interrupt you, but I noted the witness
11 mentioned Mr. Trbic as his -- deputy to Mr. Nikolic. Can I ask the
12 witness what Mr. Trbic's rank was at the time?
13 MR. THAYER:
14 Q. Sir, did you understand His Honour's question?
15 A. I did understand the question. He was an officer, but I don't
16 know what his rank was. I don't remember.
17 Q. Back to the buses, sir. Can you please describe for the
18 Trial Chamber what you saw when you saw these buses?
19 A. I saw buses passing by the barracks, that Muslim prisoners were in
20 them, and I saw our guards standing in the buses. I don't know whether
21 they were guards of the Zvornik Brigade. In fact, I think they were not.
22 Q. And were you able to observe the position of any of these
23 prisoners, sir?
24 A. I did observe it. They had their heads bowed and they held their
25 hands above their heads.
1 Q. And when you say they were above their heads, sir, what do you
2 mean? How were their hands?
3 A. What I meant, like this, behind their necks. [Indicates]
4 Q. Indicating that their fingers were interlocked behind their --
5 behind their heads?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Can you recall what direction the buses were coming from and what
8 direction they were headed towards as you sit here today, sir?
9 A. I do recall. They were coming from the direction of Zvornik or
10 rather further away from Bratunac and they were moving --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?
12 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry but my computer has just crashed.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, all right. Sorry. I saw that there was some
14 disturbance but I saw Mr. Ostojic looking this way and I tried to follow
15 you, Mr. Ostojic. So you have misdirected the Trial Chamber.
16 Yeah, I think we need to wait until this is sorted out. As soon
17 as it is okay please, let us know. Unless you all agree to have the break
18 now rather than in 15 minutes' time. We could do that as well.
19 Okay. Let's have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is everything okay now?
23 THE REPORTER: I hope so.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, and thank you for alerting us in
25 a timely fashion. So we go back to your last recorded question, please,
1 line 19 on page 26. And then the witness will start his answer again or
2 repeat his answer which never made it to the transcript.
3 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just to make sure we're on the same
4 page literally, that is the question regarding indicating their fingers
5 interlocked behind their heads or we're down to where I see the direction
6 of the buses question?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 MR. THAYER: Okay. That's at line 23 from my transcript. I'll ask
9 the same question and we'll start from there.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It doesn't tell me what my line -- mine is line
11 19: "Can you recall what direction the buses were coming from and what
12 direction they were headed to as you sit here today, sir?" And you had
13 started giving your answer when we had a minor calamity.
14 MR. THAYER:
15 Q. Sir, if you would just describe for the Court, if you can recall,
16 which direction the buses were coming from and in which direction they
17 were headed.
18 A. Yes, I do recall. The buses were coming from the direction of
19 Zvornik or further away from Bratunac, and they were moving towards
20 Bijeljina because the Zvornik-Bijeljina road passes by the barracks.
21 Q. And where were you, sir, when you saw these buses?
22 A. I was in the barracks compound, the Standard barracks.
23 Q. And did you see these buses from more than one location at the
24 Standard barracks?
25 A. I saw them from within the compound. I can't tell you exactly
1 where I was standing. I was in the compound, and I saw those buses
2 passing by.
3 Q. Okay. At some time after this day when you saw those buses, did
4 you begin to hear rumours at the brigade? And if so, can you tell the
5 Trial Chamber what those rumours were that you heard?
6 A. After that, I don't know exactly how many days later, I can't give
7 you a date as to when, but I heard that there were executions of Muslims
8 in Orahovac and Pilica. Those were the rumours that were going round in
9 the brigade or, rather, at Standard I heard this from the soldiers. No
10 one said anything officially, but many of them were talking about it.
11 Q. Now, I'm not asking you for any particular dates or times, sir,
12 but during these days following the fall of Srebrenica, did you see
13 Drago Nikolic in and around the Standard barracks?
14 A. Yes, I did see him in the barracks.
15 Q. And how about Mr. Trbic, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Mr. Jasikovac?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And do you have any specific knowledge as to where they were going
20 on those occasions when you saw them in and out of the barracks?
21 A. I had no knowledge as to where they were going.
22 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to turn your attention to a different topic. I
23 want to ask you some questions about some charges which were brought
24 against a father and son in which your unit had some involvement.
25 Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you first became aware of any
1 allegations against this father and son?
2 A. I didn't quite understand your question.
3 Q. Okay. How did you first come to -- I see you nodding your head.
4 Can you answer the question, sir?
5 A. Yes, I can, I think I can answer the question. At a certain point
6 in time, two Serb combatants were brought to the office. I think it was
7 Djokic Nesko and his son, I don't know his name, and then Drago Nikolic
8 came, the chief in the brigade, and he said that these were our fighters
9 who had assisted the enemy and that criminal charges should be filed
10 against them and an order should be drafted for the brigade commander for
11 military imprisonment of 60 days.
12 Q. Now, were you present, sir, when Drago Nikolic made this
14 A. Yes, I was present.
15 Q. And was he, in fact, addressing you, sir?
16 A. I think he was addressing me.
17 Q. You indicated that one of your typical duties was to interview
18 witnesses and take statements. Did you actually meet the father and son?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Who did you meet first, sir, and where?
21 A. In the office in which I worked, I met the younger Djokic, that
22 is, the son.
23 Q. And can you describe what happened in that meeting, sir?
24 A. I remember that the Djokic Jr., that is, the son, he wouldn't
25 admit why he had been brought in, and then the chief, Drago Nikolic,
1 slapped him once, and he told the whole story.
2 Q. And after he was slapped, what did he say happened, sir, that is,
3 the Jokic son.
4 A. He said that he and his father, Nesko, had tried to help four
5 Muslim men to cross our lines and reach the other side, and they wanted to
6 help them to do this; that they gave them food and clothing, and that
7 their intention was to bring them to our positions and then for them to
8 cross the lines on their own. I'm talking about the confrontation line.
9 Q. Sir, was the father then brought in to your office?
10 A. Yes, he was.
11 Q. And do you recall whether Drago Nikolic was still in your office
12 when the father was brought in?
13 A. Yes. As the father was in front of the office, which is nearby,
14 he wasn't at any distance, he was standing in front of the door.
15 Q. Sir, did you complete the answer to your question? I'm sorry, I
16 couldn't tell whether you were done or not.
17 A. Yes, yes, I did.
18 Q. Okay. So the father was brought in to your office. Did
19 Drago Nikolic, to the best of your recollection, stay in your office for
20 the meeting with the father?
21 A. I think he didn't stay long in the office after the son had made
22 his admissions. He left. I don't think he stayed in the office for long.
23 Q. And do you recall whether the son said anything to the father?
24 A. As far as I can remember, he said, "Daddy, I have admitted
25 everything. They know everything. Why don't you tell them, too, what
2 Q. And were statements eventually taken from the father and son, sir?
3 And if so, do you recall who took them?
4 A. Yes, statements were taken from Nesko Djokic and his son
5 concerning the circumstances that I have described a moment ago, and they
6 were taken by my colleague, Goran Bogdanovic.
7 Q. Sir, do you recall the name of the village this father and son
8 were from and where these events took place?
9 A. Yes, I do. It's a place near Zvornik called Lokanj.
10 MR. THAYER: If we may have 65 ter number 393 displayed on
11 e-court, and I'll be referring to page 1 of the English translation and
12 page 1 of the original B/C/S document for the time being.
13 Q. Sir, do you see a document in front of you on your computer
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you recognise what that document is?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. What is it, sir?
19 A. That's the statement of Nesko Djokic concerning what I just
21 MR. THAYER: And if we could have page 2 of the English and page 3
22 of the B/C/S document shown, please. Perfect, thank you.
23 Q. Sir, do you have an image on your screen?
24 A. Yes, I see it. It's okay.
25 Q. Do you see the signature at the bottom right of the document?
1 A. Yes, I see it.
2 Q. And whose signature is that?
3 A. My colleague's, Goran Bogdanovic's.
4 Q. In the penalty of the fact that his name is typewritten there, do
5 you recognise that handwriting as that of your colleague,
6 Goran Bogdanovic?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Now -- and we're done with this document for the time being. Thank
10 Did you also interview the Muslim prisoners, sir?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. I think you mentioned that there were four altogether. How many
13 did you personally interview?
14 A. Three, I took the statements of three of them.
15 Q. And do you remember who interviewed the fourth?
16 A. My colleague, Cedo Jovic.
17 Q. Would you please describe for the Trial Chamber the appearance --
18 MR. THAYER: I'll move on and ask the question again,
19 Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not receiving interpretation in English.
21 Yes, but I have had the privilege what I stated in English translated into
22 Serbo-Croat again. Are you receiving interpretation in English? No. So
23 we have this problem which needs to be solved.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Are you on the English channel now?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have always been on the English channel. So
1 I think we can proceed. Okay.
2 MR. THAYER:
3 Q. Sir, we're just having some technical difficulties with the
4 translation channeling.
5 Would you please describe how these four Muslim prisoners appeared
6 when you saw them?
7 A. First of all, they looked frightened. They were thin. Their
8 clothes were in shreds. That's it.
9 MR. THAYER: If we may have 65 ter number 392 displayed on
10 e-court, please, page 1 of the English and the B/C/S, please.
11 Q. Do you see that document in front of you, sir?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And what is it?
14 A. That's the statement that we took from those Muslim prisoners.
15 This is the statement of Almir Halilovic.
16 Q. And if you can take a look at the first line just above where it
17 says "Statement," just for the record, can you indicate the village and
18 opstina that's indicated for this witness?
19 A. Shall I say the name?
20 Q. If you would, please, sir, just read it.
21 A. Almir Halilovic, son of Suljo and Dika, born on the 25th of
22 August, 1980, in Bajramovici village, Srebrenica municipality.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. If we could have page 3 of the B/C/S shown and
24 page 2 of the English, and if we could go to the bottom. Thank you.
25 Sir, do you see this document, this new page in front of you?
1 A. Yes, I see it.
2 Q. And is that your signature on the lower right corner there?
3 A. It's my signature.
4 Q. If we may have 65 ter 389 displayed as well. Do you recognise
5 what this is, sir?
6 A. I know.
7 Q. And what is it, please?
8 A. It's a statement by a Muslim prisoner.
9 Q. And would you just read into the record the name of the prisoner
10 and his biographical information that's indicated in that first sentence?
11 Just read that in briefly, if you would.
12 A. Sakib Kiviric, son of Salko and mother, Hadzira, born on the 24th
13 of June, 1964, in Jagodnja, Bratunac municipality.
14 Q. And if we could have page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the English
15 displayed, please. And again, sir, just turn your attention to the lower
16 right-hand corner. Is that your signature there?
17 A. Yes, it's my signature.
18 Q. May we have 65 ter 390, please? Looking at the first page of the
19 document, is this also a statement of one of the Muslim prisoners that you
20 took, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, again, would you just briefly read the biographical
23 information into the record?
24 A. Emin Mustafic, son of Rifet and mother Rukija, born on the 7th of
25 October 1969, in Drinjaca, Zvornik municipality.
1 Q. And if we could see page 3 of the B/C/S, please, and page 2 of the
2 English. Again, sir, do you recognise your signature in the lower
3 right-hand corner of this statement?
4 A. I recognise it.
5 Q. Lastly, sir, I want to show you 65 ter 391. Do you recognise this
6 as the statement of the fourth Muslim prisoner?
7 A. I recognise it.
8 Q. And if you would just read the -- that biographical information,
10 A. Fuad Djozic, born to father Senusija and mother Rukija, on the 2nd
11 of May, 1965, in Zegojno, Srebrenica municipality.
12 Q. And if we may have the third page of the B/C/S and the second page
13 of the English, please. Do you see who has signed the page at the bottom
14 right-hand corner here, sir?
15 A. I see the signature and who it belongs to.
16 Q. And as you sit here, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not
17 you were familiar with that individual's handwriting, and if you would
18 please just state the name of the person whose signature is there?
19 A. You can -- the statement was taken by Cedo Jovic, and he signed. I
20 cannot say with absolute certainty that it's his signature, but I think it
22 Q. Okay. Now, was there any sort of identification procedure
23 undertaken during your investigation concerning these four prisoners who
24 were aided by the father and son?
25 A. Yes, it existed.
1 Q. May we have 65 ter 394 displayed on e-court, please?
2 Sir, what is this document before you on your computer?
3 A. It's a record that was made concerning the identification made of
4 father and son, Djokic, by the Muslims.
5 Q. And it indicates that there were three persons present. Who does
6 it indicate were present during identification?
7 A. Second Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, chief of security;
8 Goran Bogdanovic, chief of service for the crime prevention; and another
9 member of the crime prevention service, Goran Bogdanovic.
10 Q. Okay. You just -- I'm looking at your answer here, and you've
11 indicated that Drago Nikolic, chief of security, was present,
12 Goran Bogdanovic, chief of security for the -- chief of service for the
13 crime prevention, and another member of the crime prevention service who
14 you again identified as Goran Bogdanovic. Would you just please take a
15 look at the document again and I ask you whether that's accurate or
16 whether --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake, it's Nebojsa Jeremic, the
18 third name.
19 MR. THAYER: Don't worry about the question. Don't worry about
20 answering the question, you've answered it already.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, interpreter, and thank you, Mr. Thayer.
22 MR. THAYER: May we see page 3 of the document in B/C/S, which is
23 page 2 of the English.
24 Q. Sir, do you see in the lower right corner the signature, and can
25 you tell us who that is?
1 A. I see it. It's Goran Bogdanovic's signature.
2 Q. And there appears also to be a stamp on top of that signature. Do
3 you recognise that stamp, sir?
4 A. I recognise the stamp of our brigade.
5 MR. THAYER: And I apologise for this. If we could go back to
6 page 1 of each document in B/C/S and English. I just wanted to ask you
7 one question about one line.
8 Q. Sir, I would direct your attention to the portion of the document
9 that starts immediately after the number "3" where your name is listed.
10 If you could just read that first line, please.
11 A. "Following operative information that there is reason to believe
12 that Djokic Nesko and his son, Slobodan, extended assistance to the
13 enemy." Their identification, followed by four enemy soldiers who had
14 been arrested.
15 Q. Okay. And, sir, I just asked that question because I think the
16 English translation, for those of us who are following along, may be
17 incorrect as translated, and I just wanted to verify what was in the B/C/S
18 original for the record.
19 May we have 65 ter 385 on e-court, please. Do you see the
20 document in front of you, sir?
21 A. I see it.
22 Q. And can you tell the Court what, if anything, this document
23 orders? [Realtime transcript did not include answer symbol]
24 A. This is a decision for detention in the duration of three days for
25 Nesko Djokic and his son, Slobodan.
1 Q. And if we may turn to page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the
2 English, please. Do you recognise the handwriting on the signature there,
3 sir, in the lower right-hand corner? Sorry, you need to speak audibly
4 into the record. I see you're nodding your head. Are you receiving
5 interpretation, sir?
6 A. Yes, yes, I hear perfectly well.
7 Q. Okay. Do you recognise the handwriting at the signature?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. And whose handwriting is that, sir?
10 A. It's the signature of the chief of security, Drago Nikolic.
11 Q. And, again, do you see a stamp -- do you recognise that stamp
12 that's there?
13 A. I recognise the stamp and the military PO box.
14 Q. Sir, you had some comments about this document for me. Would you
15 care to share them with the Trial Chamber?
16 A. What I said was that this order for military detention was not
17 written by me in this way and that I cannot identify this because we used
18 a different format and a different style in writing within our service in
19 relation to orders for detention in the duration of three days.
20 Q. Okay. Well, based on your recollection of these events and your
21 participation in this investigation, is the document factually correct?
22 A. Yes, the disposition seems to be accurate.
23 Q. And do you have any reason to doubt its authenticity, sir?
24 A. I do not doubt it.
25 Q. The last document I want to show you, sir, is 65 ter number 386.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.
2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, no objection, but page 12, line 9, I
3 think the Prosecutor asked a question and then there was an answer, but
4 the answer follows right with the question, so just for the transcript.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, since previously I noticed that the lines and
6 page do not -- at least what I have do not correspond with Mr. Thayer's,
7 could you read out to me, please, the question, yes, so that I point out
8 immediately --
9 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, on my screen the question was: "And can
10 you tell the Court what, if anything, this document orders?" And then
11 following that is: "This is a decision for detention in the duration of
12 three days for Nesko Djokic and his son, Slobodan." I believe that was
13 the answer.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So we're talking of lines 8 to 10 on page
15 12, at least on what we have here, and these need to be separated, line 8
16 and the first word on line 9 stay where they are, and the rest from "this
17 is a decision" right up to "his son, Slobodan," the next line, will be
18 marked as being the answer given by the witness to the previous question.
19 Thank you.
20 Thank you, Mr. Meek.
21 MR. THAYER: May I proceed, Mr. President?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sure.
23 MR. THAYER: I thank my learned colleague for that intervention.
24 Q. And again, sir, we're just having some technical difficulties,
25 nothing for you to be concerned about.
1 Do you see the document in front of you, a new document on your
2 screen, sir?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And what is this, sir?
5 A. It's a criminal report to the military prosecutor's office in
7 Q. If we may have page 3 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the English.
8 Again, do you recognise the handwriting of the signature here, sir?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. And whose is it, sir?
11 A. It is the signature of the chief of security, Drago Nikolic.
12 Q. And, again, there's a stamp for the brigade; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. And this is a report concerning the charges against the father and
15 son, is that correct, just to be clear?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Now, sir, as you sit here today, do you know for certain whether
18 or not your unit actually wrote up charges against the father and son?
19 A. I do not remember. I did not write a criminal report, if that's
20 what you are referring to, and I don't recollect whether an order was
21 written by the brigade commander, signing 60 days of military imprisonment
22 which I was told should be written.
23 Q. And, sir, were you transferred to other duties in and around this
24 time or shortly thereafter?
25 A. On the 26th of July, I went to do work duty lasting three months.
1 Q. Now, just a few more questions for you, sir.
2 During this investigation, where were the four Muslims held?
3 A. I think they were in the military detention room, which was inside
4 the barracks, the Standard barracks.
5 Q. And on -- just what floor, sir?
6 A. It was on the ground floor.
7 Q. And do you have any idea where the father and son were held?
8 A. I really can't remember.
9 Q. And with respect to those four Muslim prisoners, sir, when was the
10 last time you recall seeing them?
11 A. I saw them for the last time in the office when they were making
12 their statements.
13 Q. Do you have any idea how long they were kept at Standard?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. And do you have any information concerning what happened to them
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. Sir, you mentioned that at some point many people in the brigade
19 were talking about executions that had taken place at Orahovac and Pilica.
20 To your knowledge, did anyone in the brigade request the military
21 prosecutor's office to conduct an investigation into those executions that
22 were reported and rumoured?
23 A. I'm not aware of that.
24 Q. And, sir, to your knowledge were you or anyone in your unit, that
25 is, your crime prevention unit, ever instructed to conduct an
1 investigation into the executions at Orahovac and Pilica?
2 A. As far as I know, no.
3 Q. And if an investigation were to be ordered into such events, who
4 would have ordered you to do so, sir?
5 A. Drago Nikolic, the chief of security of the brigade. That is my
6 opinion, because he was the one who issued orders to us.
7 MR. THAYER: Sir, I thank you. I have no further questions for
8 you at this time.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 Mr. Thayer, as I stated earlier, I have got several different
11 teams who have expressed their intention to cross-examine the witness.
12 Mr. Zivanovic?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will not cross-examine this witness,
14 Your Honour, thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek.
16 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:
18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. How are you?
19 A. Good afternoon. Thank you, I'm fine.
20 Q. A few questions is all I have, and first off: You gave a
21 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on 12th of January, 2006, which
22 you reviewed and confirmed on the 22nd day of April, 2007, with only two
23 changes; is that correct, sir?
24 A. I don't know what you are referring to. Which two changes?
25 Q. Well, the first correction you said you had, or change or
1 correction, would be that you did not write report, rather you would
2 write, among other things, sentencing orders and criminal charges. Do you
3 recall that, sir?
4 A. Yes, I remember that. I'm saying that again. I didn't write
5 reports. I wrote orders and criminal charges, but not reports to anyone.
6 Q. And the only other correction that you made from your 12 January
7 2006 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor was you drew a new sketch;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Now, it is true, sir, that you would have had to have reviewed
11 thoroughly your 12 January 2006 statement in order to tell Mr. Thayer of
12 the two changes; isn't that true, sir?
13 A. Yes, I read the statement. I read the statement three days ago, I
14 think it was when I read the statement, but I don't really understand what
15 you are asking me.
16 Q. My only question was: You thoroughly reviewed that statement, now
17 you say, three days ago? That's all.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?
19 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm not sure there's a question on the
20 record, and that may be what's going on, that's all.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall I intervene?
22 MR. MEEK: The witness answered, "yes," I'm sorry. The witness
23 answered, "yes."
24 JUDGE AGIUS: "Yes, I read the statement," he said.
25 MR. MEEK:
1 Q. Sir, I just want to ask you a couple of questions about that
2 statement. First, every morning the commander of the military police, the
3 military company, the police company, the Zvornik Brigade, would give you
4 orders; is that correct?
5 A. It is not correct. Orders were given to me by Drago Nikolic, the
6 chief of security.
7 Q. Okay. And that was after a daily morning briefing; correct?
8 A. If you're meaning briefing -- if you mean briefing, I never
9 attended those briefings with the brigade commander, but I know that they
10 took place every morning, and after that in the service we would receive
11 instructions from Drago Nikolic.
12 Q. Yes, correct, and I didn't mean to insinuate that you personally
13 attended those meetings. Let's go a little further. You did indicate in
14 your statement that from time to time the military police company
15 commander might give you some orders, but you also received orders from
16 Drago Nikolic and his deputy, Trbic?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer?
18 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think it would be perhaps useful if
19 the witness could see the entire portion of the statement to which my
20 learned colleague is referring.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you agree to that, Mr. Meek?
22 MR. MEEK: I don't disagree, Judge. 3D107 is the English, and I
23 don't have the number for the B/C/S, of course.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: If someone could assist us.
25 MR. MEEK: So if we could put just paragraph 5, the first page, I
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 MR. MEEK: First off --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, it's there.
5 MR. MEEK: I think we'll have to switch back to the page before
6 where paragraph 5 starts.
7 Q. Sir, could you just read paragraph 5 to yourself, and when you're
8 finished with the two lines on this page, we'll have it switched to the
9 next page.
10 A. We can pass to the next page now, please.
11 I've read the fifth paragraph.
12 Q. Thank you very much. And just to make it clear, Drago Nikolic
13 would attend meetings every morning with the brigade commander,
14 Vinko Pandurevic; correct?
15 A. I don't know whether it was virtually every morning, but it was
16 customary for such meetings to be held, or the briefing, as we soldiers
17 called it.
18 Q. And after these briefings, then Drago Nikolic would call either
19 Goran, Cedo or yourself, either to his office or by telephone and then
20 give you instructions on what to do; true?
21 A. True.
22 Q. Sometimes, however, Miomir Jasikovac, the commander of the
23 military police company, would also be in Drago Nikolic's office receiving
24 tasks; correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct, but not sometimes; every day he would come.
1 Q. Thank you. And you go on to state that if Drago Nikolic was not
2 present, then his deputy, Trbic, would attend the commander's meeting and
3 then send the tasks on down to you; correct?
4 A. Yes, if Drago Nikolic was not there, then his deputy,
5 Milorad Trbic, would go to the briefings and he would pass on to us, to
6 us, that is correct.
7 Q. And, sir, these instructions would be exclusively related to
8 incidents involving members of the Zvornik Brigade; is that true?
9 A. Yes, it's true. There were no Muslims at the time.
10 Q. And very briefly, while we have this page on the screen in front
11 of you, could you just read to yourself paragraph 6?
12 A. I've read it.
13 Q. Thank you. Could you just explain, in the statement, you state
14 that "Pandurevic acted like a god in the brigade," could you just expand
15 on that? What do you mean by that?
16 A. I could. I will explain it. I don't know whether I actually said
17 like "god," it's a big word to use, but Commander Pandurevic was a real
18 commander. He was strict. I believe or, rather, my opinion is the other
19 officers respected him, but he was quite correct or fair-handed. But he
20 was a real soldier. It was different -- the discipline in the brigade was
21 different when the commander was there as opposed to when he was not.
22 Discipline was a bit more relaxed when the commander was absent. That is
23 why, I believe, that the other officers respected him.
24 Q. And, sir, can you tell me, where was the military prosecutor's
25 office located in 1995?
1 A. I think in Bijeljina.
2 Q. Can you recall today who was in charge of that office, sir?
3 A. I can't recall.
4 Q. Now, you also stated, and I just want to clarify this, that you
5 did not leave the Standard building during this period of time, as some of
6 your other colleagues had to; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And --
9 A. I'm sorry.
10 Q. Did you have something --
11 A. I didn't go home, either. There were no free days. We were on
12 the alert.
13 Q. And, sir, you stated in your statement to the Office of the
14 Prosecutor in 2006, that during that entire time you did not see any
15 officers at the brigade who were not attached to the brigade staff; isn't
16 that a fact, sir?
17 A. I didn't know other officers outside the Zvornik Brigade, so I
18 can't remember now whether I saw any officers I didn't know or not. But I
19 didn't know other officers except for those in the Zvornik Brigade; of
20 that I am sure.
21 Q. And, sir, you stated that in regards to the -- some prisoners that
22 were supposed to be transported to a prison camp, Batkovici, that you
23 never received any confirmation that they actually ended up there. Do you
24 recall that, sir?
25 A. I do, yes. That's what I said.
1 Q. Would you normally --
2 A. And I don't remember whether we received any feedback information
3 as to whether they arrived there, so I don't remember that.
4 Q. Well, my --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
6 MR. THAYER: If we could just have a little specificity as to
7 which group of prisoners we're talking about. We've heard testimony,
8 obviously, about one group, and I think the statement is referring to
9 other prisoners, and if we could just clarify that based on the statement
10 or his recollection as to which prisoners we're referring to here being
11 transferred or not.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek.
13 MR. MEEK: Yes.
14 Q. You indicated that there were some soldiers from Bijeljina Brigade
15 arriving in trucks or transport, between 80 and 100 Muslim prisoners. You
16 also stated that someone had mentioned to you that they were being
17 transported to the Batkovici prison. Do you recall that, sir?
18 A. Yes, I do recall that, in view of the fact that Batkovici is close
19 to Bijeljina, I assumed that these were soldiers from the Bijeljina
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. But I didn't speak to them.
23 Q. Would it be normal that you, in your capacity as a legal officer,
24 would receive confirmation?
25 A. No, it wasn't customary.
1 MR. MEEK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Meek.
3 Ms. Nikolic.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jeremic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. I shall try and take up a position so you will see me.
9 A. Oh, there you are.
10 Q. First, let us correct a sentence in the transcript. I'll try and
11 deal with it through a question. It is page 3 for the second time on the
12 monitors, and 29 on the central monitor. Let me ask you this question.
13 You said that Mr. Drago Nikolic was the chief of the brigade?
14 A. I couldn't have said that. That must be a misinterpretation. I
15 know what the position of Drago Nikolic was.
16 Q. That's correct, and you told us what his position was.
17 A. He was chief of security of the Zvornik Brigade.
18 Q. Thank you. Today, you testified about the way in which
19 instructions were handed down to you for your work and how you received
20 your orders. From your testimony, I came to the conclusion that your
21 immediate superior within the service for combatting crime was
22 Drago Nikolic. Isn't that right?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. As regards combat issues in the sphere of military police and
25 military affairs, who was your superior?
1 A. The commander of the military police company, Miomir Jasikovac.
2 Q. Thank you. Let us look at a document now jointly. I don't know
3 how familiar you are with it, but you will agree with me that this
4 company, military police company, was organised in accordance with the
5 rules of service?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown
8 Prosecution Exhibit P00707, page 9 on the B/C/S and page 10 in the English
10 Q. I would like to ask you to read two short paragraphs from that
11 document. Could you turn the text around and enlarge it a little? Could
12 you please read the heading: "Control and command of the military
13 police." And could you read out paragraph 12 and the first sentence of
14 paragraph 13?
15 A. Yes, just a moment. Let me find it. "The command of the military
16 unit and the institution within which, according to establishment, the
17 military police unit is a part or has been attached to it is under the
18 control and command of the military police. In the professional sense,
19 it's controlled and commanded by the commander of the security organ of
20 the military unit within whose composition the military police is attached
21 or belongs."
22 Q. Does this confirm, more or less, what you were saying today
23 according to the rules?
24 A. To tell you the truth, I see this for the first time.
25 Q. I believe you, but those were the rules that were in force at the
1 time in the armed forces. You may have not read them.
2 A. I hadn't read them.
3 Q. But in your daily life, when you were receiving instructions and
4 orders, you would receive them from the chief of security?
5 A. Yes, precisely so.
6 Q. Let us now comment on another part of your testimony. It has to
7 do with the days following the fall of Srebrenica, when you said that it
8 was chaotic and that you spent all your time in the barracks, and that you
9 even slept there.
10 Would you be kind enough to tell us, where was the dormitory or
11 the bedroom where you spent your nights in at the time?
12 A. It was on the top floor of the Standard barracks,.
13 Q. In the first building or the second building? The building in the
14 front where the officers were?
15 A. If you're referring to the main entrance, the dormitories were not
16 there. Upstairs was the commander's office, so the dormitory was in a
17 different part of the building. One could put it that way.
18 Q. Would it assist you if I were to show you a sketch that we
19 received from the Prosecution yesterday?
20 A. Yes, show it to me, please.
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] So could the usher assist, please?
22 I apologise, Your Honours, that this is not in the e-court, but we
23 received it yesterday, together with other notes, a copy of the sketch
24 prepared by Mr. -- by the witness during meeting with Mr. Thayer.
25 Q. Mr. Jeremic, is this the sketch that you made?
1 A. It's something like the sketch. It's gone.
2 Q. [No interpretation] Could you please explain, and is this your
4 THE INTERPRETER: The answer was "yes."
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Jeremic, would you be kind enough to take the pointer and show
8 us roughly the path you followed when going to the dormitory?
9 A. Let us start from here [indicates], from the right-hand entrance,
10 which is the one I used most often. There were two. This is the
11 entrance, and then to the left is a corridor, the whole length of the
12 building, and at the end of that corridor was our office. Across the way
13 was the financial service, before that was the personnel service, and
14 before the end of the corridor there was another corridor to the right
15 which led to the kitchen and then left to the infirmary, and then another
16 corridor, a small one, to the right with the military detention room. And
17 then to the right were stairs leading up to the dormitory, where I slept.
18 Q. So you would pass by the kitchen every evening when you went to
19 sleep while in the barracks?
20 A. If I used this entrance, then every evening.
21 Q. Do you recall, did the kitchen have its working hours?
22 A. It did.
23 Q. When did it close?
24 A. I don't know exactly when, but I think dinner was served from 18
25 until 2000 hours.
1 Q. Thank you, Madam Usher, for your assistance.
2 So it is right to say that after 2000 hours, the kitchen or
3 canteen was locked?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you know Mr. Sreten Milosevic, assistant commander for
7 A. I knew who Sreten Milosevic was, I knew him by sight.
8 Q. In view of the fact that in that period of time there were various
9 rumours about the events taking place in Karakaj, did you hear of a dinner
10 late in the evening on the 14th [Realtime transcript read in error "4th"]
11 of July in Sreten Milosevic's office?
12 A. No, I didn't hear of that, and I don't know where his office is.
13 Q. And do you know where the office of the duty officer is?
14 A. It was upstairs. I never went to that office.
15 Q. Is it to the right of the stairs, is it the first office to the
16 right once you climb up to the first floor?
17 A. I don't know exactly which office it was, but I know that it was
18 on the first floor. I don't remember anymore. I didn't go there often.
19 Q. Just a moment, please. A correction in the transcript, page 28,
20 line 4. It says "the 4th of July," but I think the date should be the
21 14th of July.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What's even more important is whether -- but you
23 were using the same language, so that's not a problem. Okay, we'll have
24 the transcript amended in due course, and thank you for pointing that out
25 to us.
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. You testified that the stories around the fall of Srebrenica,
3 about the events of the 14th and the 15th of July, started going round
4 amongst the soldiers several days later and that stories about killings in
5 Orahovac and Pilica went around like a rumour but as some sort of a
7 A. Precisely so.
8 Q. Were there rumours and were there things attributed to people,
9 individuals, that had happened and that hadn't happened?
10 A. Well, all kinds of things were being said. I cannot now remember
11 the details and the stories and who told me what and how they said it.
12 Maybe somebody added something, somebody subtracted something, maybe
13 somebody lied, maybe somebody had a false impression.
14 Q. I agree with you, Mr. Jeremic, it was a long time ago, but I am
15 asking about an overall picture about the communications regarding the
16 events in and around Orahovac.
17 After prisoners or, rather, the soldiers, member of the BiH Army
18 were taken prisoner, I think you examined them on the 23rd of July,
19 according to the documents that were shown to you.
20 A. I saw the date just now, but I couldn't remember the date myself.
21 Q. Could we please look again at the documents that my colleague
22 showed you, but very briefly. So could the witness be shown, please, a
23 document of the Prosecution 391, 391.
24 Could you please look at the heading of this statement. You read
25 out the particulars of Mr. Fuad Djozic, and that has been recorded in the
1 transcript. Is there any indication he was a member of any unit of the
2 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
3 A. It says here by "Occupation," "Driver and member of the 280th
4 Mountain Brigade."
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. You're welcome.
7 Q. Could the witness be shown document 390, please. P00390, please.
8 This is a statement by Emin Mustafic. You read out a part of it, so there
9 is no need to do it again, but do we have an indication that he was a
10 member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. Yes, it says here: "Member of the 280th Eastern Bosnian Light
13 Q. Thank you. Could the witness be shown now P00389? Again, could
14 you please look at that part of the preamble and tell us whether here
15 there's information that Sakib Kiviric was a member of any unit?
16 A. Yes, it says here he was a member of the 283rd Eastern Bosnian
17 Light Brigade.
18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think, Your Honour,
19 that this would be a good moment for the break.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you very much, Ms. Nikolic. We'll have a
21 25-minute break starting from now.
22 Before we break, how much longer do you think you have? Don't
23 take my question to mean that I am pressurising you. I'm just trying
24 to --
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best to finish by the end
1 of today's sitting, maybe earlier. About 45 minutes more. It's a bit
2 difficult for me to say exactly how much longer I will need.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Haynes, do you still plan -- or Mr. Sarapa,
4 do you still plan to cross-examine this witness?
5 MR. HAYNES: Yes, and so that we're clear, this witness will not
6 be finished today.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So I think -- I put the question precisely to
8 help you plan whether you should keep your next witness here in the
9 building or send him to the hotel. It looks like that would be the best
10 way to go about it.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Mr. Jeremic, I shall try to complete my cross-examination as
18 quickly as possible.
19 I'd like us to go back to an incident which you testified about
20 today and at which you were present at, in your office, when Drago Nikolic
21 slapped the junior Djokic during the investigation. I wanted to ask you
22 whether you had ever, before that, seen Drago Nikolic slapping anyone.
23 A. No, I hadn't.
24 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that there was a lot of work for
25 the brigade and that stress was running very high in the brigade. Is it
1 possible that Mr. Nikolic was stressed out during those days?
2 A. Quite possibly so.
3 Q. Had you perhaps heard of the death of some close relatives of his
4 during that period of time?
5 A. Yes. It was in those days that eight military policemen were
6 killed. I think it was eight, and one of them was a close relative of
7 his. I think his name was Dusan Nikolic.
8 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you a few more questions.
9 To the best of your recollection, the evening -- or rather the day between
10 the 13th and the 14th, I understood that you were at the Standard in
12 A. Please do not ask me about dates because I do not remember the
14 Q. Can I put it this way? That one evening, you were on duty at the
15 gate at the entrance to the Standard barracks in Karakaj?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you were on duty one day?
18 A. Yes, I was, I think for 24 hours during the day and night.
19 Q. Do you remember, during the evening hours, that officers from
20 other brigades came, or specifically do you remember Momir Nikolic coming,
21 the chief of security for the Bratunac Brigade?
22 A. I really do not know Momir Nikolic. I never saw him. I may have
23 seen him, but I don't know who that man is.
24 Q. Let me ask you two more questions linked to the statements about
25 which you testified today.
1 A. I am at your disposal.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 3D111, a
3 Defence exhibit, please.
4 Q. Is this a statement by Slobodan Djokic?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Would you please look at page 3, please, of the statement. Do you
7 recognise the signature on this page, page 3?
8 A. Yes, I do. I've already said that.
9 Q. Whose signature is this?
10 A. Of my colleague, Goran Bogdanovic, on the right-hand side.
11 Q. So this means that on the 26th of July, Goran Bogdanovic took a
12 statement from Slobodan Djokic?
13 A. Can I see page 1 once again? But I think that's right.
14 Q. Could you please switch over to page 1 of this document?
15 A. Yes. On the 26th of July, 1995.
16 Q. You told us today that on the 26th of July, 1995, you left the
17 brigade and you were transferred to work duty in the municipality?
18 A. Yes. I was absent for three months.
19 Q. So you were not present on the 26th of July, 1995, when
20 Goran Bogdanovic took this statement from Slobodan Djokic?
21 A. I don't remember, but I probably was not there as I left on the
22 26th of July for work duty, and it went on until the 16th of October that
23 same year.
24 Q. After which you returned to the brigade again?
25 A. That is correct, and I took up the same duties.
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will not
2 have any more questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Ms. Nikolic.
4 Borovcanin are not cross-examining; Miletic and Gvero, the same.
5 Mr. Sarapa for General Pandurevic.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
7 Q. Good evening, Mr. Jeremic.
8 A. Good evening.
9 Q. In view of the duties that you had in the brigade, could you
10 please tell us what military discipline is?
11 A. In my understanding, military discipline is a discipline that
12 applies to soldiers.
13 Q. Could we now show document 7D311. The next page, please. These
14 are regulations on military discipline, and the rule on military
15 discipline, Article 1, Article 1.
16 I would like to kindly ask you, and I point out that we have asked
17 for an English translation but it still hasn't been translated, so we only
18 have it in the B/C/S, I will read out Article 1 to see whether you have
19 the same understanding of military discipline as this:
20 "Military discipline is: To correctly, fully and timely perform
21 military and other duties in the Army of Yugoslavia in accordance with the
22 law, the rules of service, and other regulations and orders of competent
23 superiors; respect in military service and outside the service of law and
24 order and the rules of behaviour established by law, law and other
25 regulations; and respect for ethical norms of society."
1 Can we agree that this is the gist of military discipline
2 according to your own understanding?
3 A. Yes, I agree with you, but this is a document that I see for the
4 first time. I haven't had occasion to read or study it, but I agree with
5 you, with this Article 1.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we don't have an English translation
8 before us, and I just ask my learned colleague to identify the source of
9 this document, whether it's JNA, VRS, or something else, and a date.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to ask Mr. Sarapa the same
12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I will tell you. This is a document
13 called "Regulations on Military Discipline," dated 1995, and these were
14 applied in Republika Srpska, and they were published in the Military
15 Official Gazette number 40, dated the 30th of December, 1993, and number
16 20 --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you proceed, were they any different from any
18 previous regulations or rules of service before --
19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No. These are rules on military
20 discipline that were applied in the army of Republika Srpska and that were
21 acted upon.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: My question, Mr. Sarapa, is this: Republika Srpska
23 came into being in 1992. Between that time and 1995, when these
24 regulations were promulgated, were there other regulations that dealt with
25 the notion or the concept of military discipline?
1 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] In Republika Srpska, there was
2 something else. There were the rules of service. But military discipline
3 is regulated by this document. That was applied also in the army of
4 Republika Srpska. The rules of service determines the methods, and this
5 document, the substance. So it was published on the 30th of
6 December, '93, and, in number 20, on the 21st of July, 1994. As soon as
7 we get a translation, we will provide copies.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much.
9 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you please help me clear up something? Do you agree with
11 the submission that the question of military discipline is not within the
12 terms of reference of the security organs but that the commanders are
13 responsible for military discipline?
14 A. I've already said that I first see this -- I see this for the
15 first time, and I really don't know who is responsible for military
16 discipline. I am not a professional soldier, and I really don't know why
17 you are asking me this.
18 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, and do you agree that a record of
19 disciplinary measures issued is the responsibility of the organ for moral,
20 religious and legal affairs?
21 A. I can answer that question. These disciplinary measures and
22 orders were recorded by the service for combatting crime and not the
23 service for religious and moral affairs. In our brigade, we had such a
24 service. In our brigade, we only had a section for morale, as far as I
25 know, and not for these other things that you mentioned.
1 Q. Could you now tell us something about disciplinary offences and
2 errors? Could you please tell us what are disciplinary errors?
3 A. In my view, those are light violations of military disciplines,
4 and disciplinary offences are more serious offences of military
6 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness document
7 7D370, please. That's fine. Page 2 in the Serbian version and page 2
8 also of the English version. Can we show the English version as well at
9 the same time?
10 Q. Article 63, could you please read it? Disciplinary
11 responsibility, Article 63. Could you please read out what is a
12 disciplinary error and what is a disciplinary offence?
13 A. It says here a disciplinary error is a light violation of military
14 discipline, and disciplinary offence is a more serious violation of
15 military discipline.
16 Q. That is what you said a moment ago, isn't it?
17 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now see document 7D356,
18 please. The English translation has been requested, but it still hasn't
19 been provided. This is a document entitled "Rules of Service of the Armed
20 Forces," dated 1985. It is a document or rules that were applied also in
21 the army of Republika Srpska. Could we show page 4, please. That's fine,
22 thank you. I'll just read out a part of Article 635.
23 Q. It says here: "A disciplinary error is a lighter and a
24 disciplinary offence a more serious violation of military discipline."
25 Is this identical to what we read out a moment ago, reading
1 through the regulations on military discipline?
2 A. Yes, it is identical.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. You're welcome.
5 Q. Which measures are issued in the case of disciplinary errors, the
6 lighter offence?
7 A. We used to order military detention. Not us, but we would write
8 the orders for military detention, but others were those who made the
10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now show document 7D370,
11 page 2? This is the text in Serbian, and in the English translation it is
12 page 3.
13 Q. Is it beyond contest that on the basis of Article 67 of the law on
14 the army of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as published in the
15 Official Gazette of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that for
16 disciplinary errors, disciplinary measures are issued?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that among other disciplinary measures that may be issued, one
19 of them is military detention up to 20 days?
20 A. Yes, under sub-item 5.
21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
22 document 7D356 again, please? We have asked for an English translation of
23 this document, too, and as soon as that translation is ready, copies will
24 be provided.
25 Could we please turn to chapter 12 of this document? This is page
1 261 in this document. In the document itself, that's page 261. That's
2 fine, thank you.
3 Q. Starting from paragraph 636, do you see that as one of the
4 disciplinary measures, under (A) it says "Disciplinary measures" and one
5 of such measure is "Military detention"; can you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So we can agree that this is identical?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: Again, Mr. President, we don't have the English
11 translation, and I just would ask my learned colleague to at least read
12 out what the chapter heading or what this is all about. I understand that
13 it may say or refer to disciplinary measures, but for what types of
14 offences? We've got no context to direct us as to what this is speaking
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa.
17 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] This is the document that we saw
18 earlier. Chapter 12, the Rules of Service of the Armed Forces, chapter
19 12, entitled "Implementation of Disciplinary Measures and Punishment:
20 General Provisions." Article 636 under (A).
21 Could we now see again document 7D307 [as interpreted], which is
22 the law on the Army. 7D370, page 3 in the Serbian text and page 3 in the
23 English text as well. Article 68 reads as follows: "For disciplinary
24 offences, the following disciplinary punishments can be handed down."
25 And under item 4, under such punishments, we see "Detention for
1 up to 20 days."
2 Q. Is that what it says there?
3 A. Yes, correct.
4 Q. Could we now see the Rules of Service for the Armed Forces, which
5 is document 7D356. Can we move forward, please? We need page 261,
6 please. Page 261 of the document. That's it. Article 636 of chapter 12,
7 entitled "Enforcement of Disciplinary Measures and Punishments: General
8 Provisions," Article 636 under (B) reads as follows: "Disciplinary
9 punishment, imprisonment."
10 Is that what it says there?
11 A. Yes, that's what it says.
12 Q. So we can conclude that punishments are handed down for
13 disciplinary offences and not -- and not measures. Can we now see document
14 7D --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, it just may be a question of the
17 transcript, but I'm not sure my learned colleague received an answer to
18 his last question, if in fact it was a question.
19 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that was the question. Now
20 we can see that the answer was not recorded. The question was: Can we
21 conclude, can we agree, that in case of disciplinary offences, punishments
22 are issued because they constitute a more serious violation of military
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, turning to the issue of jurisdiction in case of disciplinary
1 offences and errors, could we now see document 7D370, page 4 in the
2 Serbian text and page 5 in the English text. Article 78 in the law on the
3 army regulates jurisdiction and responsibility for resolving disciplinary
4 errors and procedure. It says here that:
5 "The following disciplinary measures: Warning, firm warning, and
6 extraordinary work in up to three shifts is something that may be issued
7 in relation to recruit soldiers, reserve soldiers and cadets. It may be
8 done by superior officers who are commanders of platoon or above."
9 And then it says there that platoon commander may issue a ban on
10 leaving the perimeter of the barracks for up to one day. Commander of
11 company may do that for up to two days, and also issue military detention
12 for up to two days. Commander of battalion can ban leaving the perimeter
13 of the barracks for up to four days and military detention for up to seven
14 days; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could we now scroll down so we can see Article 79? Yes, 79,
17 that's correct.
18 Commander of brigade and military officers of senior position are
19 entitled to issue all disciplinary measures provided for by this law; is
20 that correct as well?
21 A. Yes, it is. That's what it says there.
22 Q. Since we concluded earlier that military detention up to 20 days
23 is one of disciplinary measures, does this mean that a brigade commander
24 may mete out such a measure, military detention, for up to 20 days?
25 A. That's your conclusion.
1 Q. Let me remind you --
2 A. Listen, this is the first time that I see this document. I did
3 not have these copies of official gazette. I did not have rules of
4 service, and we didn't use any of this. I explained to you today what we
5 had used and how we had worked.
6 Q. Could we now see document -- the text of the law regulating these
7 issues, the issues that we are discussing. That's what I wanted to show.
8 Now I would like to turn to disciplinary offences. Could we see
9 document 7D370, page 5 in Serbian and page 6 in English. Article 86
10 regulates the jurisdiction and procedure for responsibility for
11 disciplinary offences. Article 86 reads: "Military disciplinary courts
12 have the jurisdiction for disciplinary offences."
13 Is this correct?
14 A. Yes, that's what it says there.
15 Q. Could we now see document 7D356. We have already seen it two or
16 three times, these are Rules of Service in the Armed Forces. Again, could
17 we see page 261 of this document. Yes, fine. Article 635, chapter
18 12, "Enforcement of Disciplinary Measures and Punishments: General
19 Provisions." Would you please look at Article 635, the last three lines
20 of it. It says there:
21 "Disciplinary errors are dealt with by competent officers in
22 accordance with the procedure specified."
23 And then it says that the military disciplinary court is competent
24 for disciplinary offences; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is this identical to the provision we saw earlier in the text of
2 the law?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could we see document 7D370. Page 5, please, in Serbian, and page
5 7 in English.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please see the English
7 translation on the screen?
8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] English translation is on page 7.
9 Could we see page 7 of the English text on the screen, please?
10 THE INTERPRETER: It's already on the English channel.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Sarapa.
12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we scroll up, please -- or
13 scroll down in order to see -- no, scroll up in order to see article 91.
14 Scroll down, please. We need Article 91. That's fine.
15 Q. When it comes to the composition of the military disciplinary
16 court, Article 91 provides: "Military disciplinary courts sit in chambers
17 of three judges, one of whom is the president of the chamber."
18 Could we now scroll up, please? Yes, thank you: "Military
19 disciplinary courts issue decisions in the form of judgements or
20 decisions -- They issue rulings in the form of judgements or decisions";
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's what it says there, but I'm not a military judge. I
23 don't see the point of your questions.
24 Q. I will now put a question to you, and it will be clear to you.
25 So it says here that military disciplinary courts issue their
1 rulings in the form of judgements or decisions. Tell us, please, what was
2 the form of your rulings in the brigade when dealing with these issues?
3 A. In the form of an order.
4 Q. Regardless of which kind of violation of military discipline it
5 was, you always issued orders; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. But I have to explain something to you. These orders were written
9 by us pursuant to an order either of the commander of the battalion or
10 commander of the brigade or pursuant to the order of the company
11 commander. Earlier, you told me what kind of detention company commander
12 was able to mete out. We simply wrote down something that we were asked
13 to write down.
14 Q. Based on the documents that we have seen so far, does it seem that
15 a brigade commander can mete out military detention measure up to 20 days?
16 A. Yes, that's what it stands for from here, but do you really think
17 that I, on my own, wrote a ruling meting out a detention for up to 60
18 days? Can you please explain that to me?
19 Q. Who was responsible for acting in the case of criminal offences by
20 soldiers or officers?
21 A. It was the responsibility of the crime prevention service or,
22 rather, the chief of the security of the brigade, Drago Nikolic, who
23 signed those criminal charges.
24 Q. That was not my question. My question was: In the event of
25 criminal offences, who would make decisions on punishment if it wasn't a
1 violation of military discipline but rather a criminal offence? Was this
2 within the framework of the brigade or was it the purview of military
4 A. Within the framework of the brigade, no judgements were handed
5 down regarding criminal offences.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: At least allow a short pause between question and
7 answer, because I have noticed a little bit of restlessness these last few
8 minutes. Did you understand me, Witness?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
13 Q. So we could make the conclusion that the difference between action
14 within the framework of the brigade and action for military discipline in
15 relation to military courts, that the organs in the brigade deal with
16 military discipline and military courts, pass judgement and punishments
17 for criminal offences?
18 A. Yes, but in the brigade there was no disciplinary military court.
19 Q. But can we agree that in view of the fact that military courts are
20 responsible in the event of criminal offences, that within the framework
21 of the brigade no judgements were handed down for criminal offences?
22 A. I agree.
23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now show to the witness
24 document P385, please.
25 Q. This is a decision that you've already seen today, I think. It is
1 a decision dated the 25th of July, 1995, handing down imprisonment for the
2 Djokic father and son, and it is signed by the chief of security,
3 Drago Nikolic. The document has been translated into English, so could
4 that be shown on the screen.
5 Can we agree that this is a decision passed in accordance with the
6 law on criminal procedure, because that is what it says in the preamble?
7 A. That is what it says.
8 Q. Is it true that this is imprisonment and not military detention?
9 Detention but not military detention. It says here detention lasting
10 three days, but it doesn't say military detention, only detention.
11 A. The word "military" is not mentioned here.
12 Q. In view of the fact that this decision was handed down pursuant to
13 the law on criminal procedure, which regulates the actual process, would
14 you agree that this is not a sanction or kind of measure or punishment,
15 but a procedural measure?
16 A. Yes, I agree.
17 Q. Can we agree with the submission that this is detention handed
18 down because there was grounds to believe that the Djokic father and son
19 had committed a criminal act, which is within the purview of military
21 A. Yes, I agree. Now you have explained what the jurisdiction of
22 military courts are.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. Thank you, too.
25 Q. Could we agree with this statement, that the commander acts
1 exclusively according to the law on the army and the rules of service as a
2 military officer?
3 A. I told you that I'm not familiar with the rules of service, that I
4 saw them here for the first time, these pictures and these articles. So
5 how the commander acted, I -- that is my opinion. I --
6 Q. Very well. If you can't answer, never mind. I won't insist. We
7 can move on.
8 A. I cannot answer that question.
9 Q. I'm only asking you to tell us what you know. This decision
10 handing down detention is dated the 25th of July, 1995. As we have seen,
11 it was issued as a procedural measure on the grounds that it was suspected
12 that the perpetrators had committed a criminal offence, which is within
13 the jurisdiction of military courts.
14 On the next day, 26th of July, 1995, the chief of security,
15 Drago Nikolic, sends a report to the competent military prosecutor's
16 office in Bijeljina. Could we now show document 7D361, please. The
17 document is available in both languages. Could we show the English
18 version too, please.
19 We have already seen this document today, so you know what it's
20 about. It is a report in connection with cooperation with the enemy and
21 filed to the military prosecutor's office in Bijeljina.
22 A. Yes, I have seen it.
23 Q. Am I right in saying that the military prosecutor's office is in
24 Bijeljina and that it was also responsible for the territory of Zvornik?
25 A. As far as I can remember, it was.
1 Q. By its content and what is stated in this document, can we agree
2 that in -- to all intents and purposes, it is a criminal report?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. On the basis of suspicion that a criminal act had been committed,
5 a criminal complaint, therefore. Can we agree, then, that further
6 processing of this case, of the Djokic father and son and what they did,
7 is within the responsibility of the military prosecutor's office and the
8 military court and no longer within the purview of the Zvornik Brigade?
9 A. Yes, I agree with you.
10 Q. When there is suspicion of a criminal offence being committed,
11 there's no disciplinary proceedings within the framework of the brigade,
12 are there?
13 A. No.
14 Q. If procedures have been instituted within the framework of the
15 brigade, such proceedings are suspended when there is suspicion that a
16 criminal act has been committed and when the case is forwarded to the
17 responsible prosecutor's office, then it is suspended in the brigade?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mentioning the documents, you said that you did cooperate with the
20 military prosecutor's office?
21 A. We just passed on to them the criminal complaints, if that is
23 Q. That was my next question. Does that mean you spoke about
24 cooperation with the military prosecutor's office, that that meant that
25 you would forward to them the documents you had available to you on the
1 basis of which they might continue the proceedings?
2 A. We supplied them with the material we had available. What they
3 did with it afterwards, I don't know.
4 Q. That is not conducting an investigation within the framework of
5 the brigade for a criminal act, it is just supplying the documents to the
6 competent body.
7 A. I don't know which documents you're referring to.
8 Q. Any documents, any evidence that you may have in connection with
9 the suspected criminal act.
10 A. Yes, statement of witnesses, statement of the perpetrator. I've
11 already explained what we would send to the prosecutor's office.
12 Q. After sending these documents to the prosecutor's office, those
13 that you had available and that were at your disposal, you didn't act --
14 take any further action on the basis of those same documents?
15 A. That is right, we didn't do anything after that, and we weren't
16 responsible for doing that, either.
17 Q. You said today that the brigade did not have to wait for
18 permission to punish someone for a term of 60 days. However, if we're
19 talking about a criminal offence and the case is forwarded to the military
20 prosecutor's office, then within the bodies of the brigade you don't issue
21 a decision on punishment; is that right?
22 A. The brigade commander would decide about that. About orders,
23 those were decided upon by the brigade commander.
24 Q. Did you ever receive from the public prosecutor any permission to
25 punish anyone?
1 A. We never punished anyone, with the approval of the prosecutor nor
2 with the approval of any officer within the brigade. We just wrote out
3 orders, as we were told to do, and judgements and punishments were things
4 we didn't decide about.
5 Q. Thank you. In connection with the investigation, do you know
6 whether security organs in the brigade ever engaged in any investigations
7 without informing the brigade commander?
8 A. I don't know about that.
9 Q. You mentioned today the morning briefings that Drago Nikolic went
10 to, or in his absence Trbic; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's what I said.
12 Q. After the briefing, you were assigned tasks, as you said?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can we agree that tasks were issued to you, but that they did not
15 convey the substance of the briefings they had with the commander?
16 A. Well, you see, they would give us assignments in concrete terms,
17 what had to do with the service I was working for.
18 Q. Can you please give me a concrete answer. When they came to see
19 you after their briefings with the commander, were you informed by them
20 about what they had discussed with the commander?
21 A. No, we were never informed about what they had discussed.
22 Q. Thank you. After statements were taken from the Djokic father and
23 son and the arrested Muslims, did Drago -- Drago Nikolic told you to write
24 out an order on punishment?
25 A. He told me to write it out before the statements were taken.
1 Q. Before the statements?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. [No interpretation]
4 A. I apologise. When we entered the office, he told us what was at
5 stake and that statements needed to be written, as well as an order by the
6 brigade commander for detention up to 60 days of military -- military
7 detention up to 60 days.
8 Q. Can we agree that it was only after statements were taken that
9 Drago Nikolic was informed in detail about what had happened?
10 A. I think that he knew even before the statements were taken and
11 before they reached the Standard barracks.
12 Q. But the criminal complaint to the military prosecutor came after
13 the statements were taken, and they are attached as an annex.
14 A. Yes. That's what I said, that he knew what it was about.
15 Q. I'll move on to another question.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you will do that tomorrow, Mr. Sarapa,
17 because we have arrived at 7.00.
18 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I don't
19 think I'll need more than five minutes, and then we won't have to keep the
20 witness. Five minutes on the outside.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any re-examination, Mr. Thayer?
22 MR. THAYER: I have three brief questions, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I was expecting you to rise, Ms. Nikolic. You
24 need to put further questions?
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I will have several questions. But
1 before we adjourn, I'd like us to correct some errors in the transcript.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which are these errors?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Page 29, line 10, the words "events
5 in and around Srebrenica," I think that we are actually talking about
6 Orahovac and not Srebrenica.
7 Page 24 of the same --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I have to stop you. I cannot follow you because --
9 how would I know which page 29 she is referring to, the previous one?
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me, too, as I'm
11 following the LiveNote on the monitor to the left, which twice starts with
12 the number 1. After every break, we would start with the number 1.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is page 28, the first reference to the fall of
14 Srebrenica --
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] 29.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 28, page 21. I think what I suggest, because
17 otherwise we'll be here for a long time and we don't want to keep anyone
18 beyond 7.00, if you could perhaps identify these and we can come --
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I will. I will do that tomorrow.
20 Very well.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we can finish the testimony of this
22 witness today, so there is no point in extending the sitting. We'll meet
23 again tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15. Thank you.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7:02 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
1 April, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.