Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10801

1 Wednesday, 2 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar, and good morning,

6 everybody.

7 Could you kindly call the case, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor v. Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here. From

11 the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Josse, Mr. Bourgon and

12 Mr. Meek. The Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.

13 I understand there are a couple of preliminaries that you wish to

14 address, Mr. Thayer.

15 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,

16 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.

17 Just a brief alert to the Chambers concerning the witness

18 scheduling for the remainder of the week. I'm not sure the extent to

19 which the Bench has been apprised of the picayune details of our witness

20 scheduling. We have been working very hard to get PW-151 here from the

21 third country in which he is currently residing. Weeks and weeks and

22 weeks ago, we had made arrangements to have him here prior to this past

23 weekend to begin testifying first thing this week. We advised my learned

24 friends last week or the week before that the third country and Dutch

25 authorities had changed that schedule. We scrambled and managed to get

Page 10802

1 the current witness here earlier to fill that gap. We were then informed

2 that it would be even later than we thought, that PW-151 would be made

3 available by the authorities here. We again scrambled to fill that gap.

4 So he will not be beginning his testimony until this Friday. That's the

5 absolute earliest we believe we can have him ready. He will not arrive,

6 we are now told, until this evening. And with the morning court schedule

7 that we're on, we believe the earliest we could have him ready to go would

8 be Friday, and we will have him ready to Friday.

9 However, given the accelerated schedule already of this week, and

10 the Court's seen, I think, some of the results of that, we may have a gap

11 emerging tomorrow following the current witness. With the

12 cross-examination time estimates that we'd had and, frankly, some of the

13 direct examination time estimates we'd had, we thought we would be very

14 comfortably able to fill the week up to Witness 151 on Friday. As of the

15 way things stand now, it doesn't look like we're going to be able to do

16 that. We may have, therefore, a possibly two- or three-hour gap erupting

17 tomorrow.

18 We are trying to find something productive to do in that time. One

19 of the ideas we had was to clean up some of the odds and ends, exhibits

20 issues that have been hanging fire for a little while; for example, the

21 statement of the accused Pandurevic, which I don't believe has been fully

22 resolved. That is something that might be able to fill some time. Other

23 than that, we are currently without any witnesses that we can bring in any

24 quicker just because of the visa issues that we face bringing people here

25 from out of the country. So we wanted to alert the Court to this problem.

Page 10803

1 The other possibility that we have, and I think Mr. McCloskey

2 alluded to this yesterday, was we are scrambling to make an investigator

3 available tomorrow to testify concerning the acquisition of the

4 Drina Corps collection, how that came into our possession, how that was

5 discovered, basically to explain that. That was an issue that arose

6 yesterday. We believe that we can have an investigator ready to go as

7 well on that issue. And if, for no other testimony than his direct, we

8 think that that would be a productive potential use of time.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Thayer.

10 Does any one of the Defence counsel wish to address this matter,

11 this issue? None.

12 Okay. Anything further? Anything else?

13 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

15 I think we'll play it by ear, because for the time being you still

16 have not finished your examination-in-chief. You asked for two hours, and

17 at least on paper we have a request for four and a half hours of

18 cross-examination. So we might end up, as you say, with a gap, or you

19 never know, we might fill the time that we have up to tomorrow completely.

20 So let's wait and see.

21 [The witness entered court]


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir, Mr. Djuric.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 10804

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. I hope you had a good rest. Today,

2 we are going to continue with your testimony. Mr. Thayer will proceed

3 with his examination-in-chief. Thank you.

4 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

6 Q. Good morning, sir.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. We left off yesterday with you telling us, I believe, that you

9 estimated you had perhaps 70 men with you at your accommodation in the

10 village near Bratunac, where you were accommodated in a school. This was

11 on July 11th. And my first question for you is: Did you receive any

12 order or instruction from Mr. Jevic later that day on the 11th as to what

13 your assignment would be the next day?

14 A. Yes. Mr. Jevic told me that the following day, on the 12th, we

15 would be having a police assignment, a police job, to go to Potocari,

16 where a larger group of civilians from Srebrenica were supposed to gather,

17 and our task was to protect those civilians, to prevent any other

18 contacts, other groups, civilians or others, with these civilians from

19 Srebrenica.

20 Q. And did Mr. Jevic tell you what, if anything, was to become or

21 happen to those civilians gathering in Potocari?

22 A. He just told me that the politics will do their job and that those

23 civilians would most probably be transported to the Tuzla area.

24 Q. And do you recall where you were when Mr. Jevic was explaining

25 this to you?

Page 10805

1 A. When we talked about this assignment, I was at the school where

2 the unit was billeted.

3 Q. And do you know where Mr. Jevic had been spending his time during

4 this period on the 11th?

5 A. I wasn't following Mr. Jevic. I don't know where he went, but he

6 was absent quite a lot.

7 Q. And when he was actually in Bratunac, do you know where he was

8 based or spending his time when he was in Bratunac?

9 A. I don't know where he was staying. I assume that he went to the

10 police station quite frequently, since the headquarters was there.

11 Q. And do you know from whom Mr. Jevic was receiving his information?

12 A. I don't know who he received his information from, but if it was

13 along the line of the command and following the logic of things, I assume

14 that it was from Mr. Borovcanin.

15 Q. And, sir, who was the overall Special Police Brigade commander on

16 the ground at that time in that area?

17 A. As for the Special Police Brigade, the person of the highest rank

18 was Mr. Borovcanin.

19 Q. Now, I want to take you to the next day, the 12th of July. Can

20 you tell the Trial Chamber what you did that day, from the beginning, just

21 step by step?

22 A. On the 12th of July, in the morning, we moved as a unit. We were

23 taken to the check-point, to the line of separation, earlier, and I could

24 tell by the buildings there that it used to be the line of separation

25 there. That's where we lined up the unit, and then we set off in the

Page 10806

1 direction of Potocari. We passed a UN check-point as we were in the

2 column, and then we came to a kind of broader area, a kind of clearing

3 which made it possible to place the unit on the left and the right side.

4 The terrain allowed for that. We were in a kind of semi-combat position,

5 and I was moving along the main road throughout that time.

6 Mr. Jevic suggested to me that that area -- he assumed that the

7 area was clear, in the sense that the Army of Republika Srpska had passed

8 there, that there were probably no other formations there, and that this

9 was just a routine matter to go through it just to make sure that somebody

10 wasn't remaining behind or had been left behind.

11 Then we continued, and then when we came to the place where the UN

12 was located, the left flank bypassed that facility. I remember then that

13 one of the unit members told me that there was something up there that

14 could be seen, that there was some houses that were burned there, that you

15 could still see the smoke. And I explained the evening before that, more

16 or less, what they were supposed to do, how to do it, what police jobs

17 were in front of us, that it was more or less what we had trained for. So

18 I recall that one of the unit members asked me, "Well, all right, we're

19 all going in a column and you are going along the road, the street," and I

20 said, "Yes. I learned how to move a long time ago, and you are learning

21 it now." So that, in itself, indicates that I was sure that there was

22 nobody there.

23 Then we -- actually, the left flank bypassed the UN base. The

24 rest of the guys came up to that area where the civilians were gathered,

25 and we saw some UN members there. I don't know exactly how many of them

Page 10807

1 there were there, but the number kept changing. Some were coming and then

2 some were leaving, so I don't remember how many of them were there.

3 Then, by some kind of logic and based on experience in police

4 work, when we come out into the field we would usually get in touch with

5 all the persons who we find in the field, so that is why we got in touch

6 with the members of the UN who happened to be there.

7 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you a couple of brief follow-up questions.

8 You described, first, before you entered Potocari, passing through a UN

9 check-point. Do you remember whether that check-point had any particular

10 name?

11 A. No, no, I don't remember. I don't know. I was never there

12 before, so just passing by didn't really mean anything to me.

13 Q. And when you refer to your left flank bypassing the UN facility,

14 do you mean that the left flank basically went around the UN compound?

15 A. Yes, they went around it, but we didn't leave people to surround

16 the base. But finally, when we all met up, some members were by the base

17 of the UN, and the rest I deployed around the civilians.

18 Q. And let's talk about the civilians for a moment, sir. Can you

19 describe the civilians that you saw, in terms of the numbers and how they

20 appeared to you at that time?

21 A. I really couldn't estimate how many there were because these

22 civilians kept moving around. They were going left and right, they were

23 agitated, so I really don't have any idea how many of them there were.

24 But new groups of civilians kept arriving, so the number was increasing,

25 but basically all the civilians looked tired, frightened. They were

Page 10808

1 crying. There were a lot of children. I don't know.

2 Q. And when you made contact with some of the UN soldiers there, can

3 you tell the Trial Chamber who you made contact with, in particular, if

4 anyone?

5 A. I remember and I recognised him in photographers, a young officer,

6 blonde, tall, very well built, corpulent, although it was a bit unusual

7 that in the uniform he was moving around in, it was a bit unusual for me

8 that he was wearing short trousers, shorts, and a T-shirt, so this is not

9 something that is standard in our -- among our troops. But he seemed to

10 be some kind of person that was responsible.

11 Q. And do you recall this soldier's rank or name?

12 A. I think that he was a lieutenant. The names come a bit hard to

13 me. Maybe van Duijn or something like that. I don't know. And I

14 recognised that name in later conversations with the investigators. At the

15 time, I didn't remember it.

16 Q. Now, can you describe where you physically deployed your

17 1st Company members at this time?

18 A. The people who were with me I deployed around the civilians to

19 protect them, so nobody could approach them, and there was a smaller group

20 there with me right next to the civilians.

21 Q. At some point after you reached the UN base, did you see

22 Mr. Jevic?

23 A. Mr. Jevic came several times there. We had direct contact perhaps

24 two or three times. If I needed something, we would communicate by radio.

25 I didn't pay attention to how many times Mr. Jevic came, if he came or

Page 10809

1 not. He had his duties, his tasks, that I didn't know about, so I had no

2 need to look -- or control him or to look for him. We saw each other two

3 or three times. I can say that those times were maybe some form of

4 control. Everything else was just in passing, just like that.

5 Q. And do you recall what Mr. Jevic's radio code-name was, sir?

6 A. Yes. Mr. Jevic's code was Staljin.

7 Q. And what was your code-name, sir?

8 A. My code was Javor. These were code-names that we had from the

9 beginning, and they are something that is easy to remember.

10 Q. And at some point that day, did you see General Mladic arrive?

11 A. Yes, from what I can recall, he was there twice right next to us.

12 At one point, I think he came with his escort, with some people. He talked

13 with the civilians, explaining something about transport, about -- but I

14 really wasn't paying attention to what Mr. Mladic was talking about with

15 the civilians. I wasn't really noticing that.

16 Q. So what happened next, sir?

17 A. When the transport began, the first vehicles appeared, and then

18 when the first vehicles appeared the civilians were kind of frightened.

19 They wanted to go, they didn't want to go. There was a dose of fear, I

20 assume. However, they did go. And in the beginning, as I said, it was a

21 bit fearful, but then when they saw that people were going in, that they

22 were leaving, that things were proceeding in a kind of normal manner, then

23 they went. But then we encountered other problems, and these problems

24 were when one or two vehicles would arrive, regardless of what kind of

25 vehicles they were, buses, trucks or some other type of vehicles, then

Page 10810

1 there was a problem how to stop and how to control them from all leaving

2 at the same time, because it wasn't possible. There wasn't enough

3 vehicles. Then the Dutch soldiers, together with some of my men, tried,

4 in a way, to calm them down, to control them, and at some point we were

5 forming police cordons, we were holding hands and trying to kind of direct

6 that crowd of people who were all practically trying to get on to one bus.

7 That's more or less what happened.

8 About this transport, if you want me to tell you more, it's

9 perhaps important to say that sometimes there would be a lull, there would

10 be no vehicles, and then five or six or ten would come in one go. I don't

11 remember the exact numbers, but a large number of vehicles would arrive,

12 and then we would respond trying to help people board.

13 Q. Now, physically, sir, where were you located, if you can just

14 generally describe where in relation, for example, to the actual UN

15 compound you were working that day?

16 A. That was the first time in my life I was there, and I cannot

17 really give you a layout of structures, but I remember the trees, and as

18 the civilians were arriving there was a shade under the trees, and we were

19 all standing there. And I remember that was not close to the entrance to

20 the UN base.

21 Q. So can you describe what you, yourself, were doing during this

22 process, you personally?

23 A. I was there by the civilians all the time, and I was almost all

24 the time in contact with this UN lieutenant. I simply didn't budge. That

25 was my post, that was my assignment. I was there all the time.

Page 10811

1 Q. Do you recall seeing Mr. Jevic participating in the

2 transportations in any way that day?

3 A. He didn't come or participate in any way in the location where we

4 were situated. Whether he was doing something elsewhere, I don't know.

5 Q. And were there any VRS soldiers, sir, participating in this

6 process where you were, from what you remember?

7 A. In the spot where I was just next to the civilians, the people who

8 were coming were probably involved in organising the transport. There

9 would be one or two men, together with the driver. They would help the

10 buses or trucks turn around. These men would step off and direct the

11 buses. But if you mean if there were any military units, no, there were

12 only those individuals who arrived together with the vehicles.

13 Q. And when you refer to individuals who arrived with the vehicles,

14 are you referring to men who were in uniform, from what you saw?

15 A. The greatest number of them was in uniform. A few were in

16 civilian clothing, but those were drivers.

17 Q. And where you were, sir, do you recall whether there were any Serb

18 civilians participating in this process?

19 A. Civilians in civilian clothing. I don't remember any.

20 Q. And you've alluded to this a little bit, sir, but can you

21 describe, from where you were, what you recall any Dutch soldiers doing

22 during this process?

23 A. I know about that group around the lieutenant. They were doing

24 approximately the same thing as we. They were around the civilians, and

25 as required they would streamline the civilians towards the buses. If a

Page 10812

1 larger convoy arrived, it would remain parked just in front of us for a

2 while, while the civilians boarded. Some of them helped the civilians

3 board. There were a lot of women who had a lot of children with them and

4 a lot of luggage, and they would help them get in. They would be

5 especially needed if a truck had to be boarded, because it's not easy to

6 climb onto a truck. But that's all that was happening in front of us. I

7 really have no idea what was going on somewhere else.

8 Q. How much time would you estimate that you spent at that particular

9 location on July 12th, sir?

10 A. On that day, until the last vehicles arrived, that was late

11 afternoon.

12 Q. So to the best of your recollection, what time did the

13 transportation stop on the 12th of July, sir?

14 A. I don't remember the exact time to the hour, but I know it was

15 late afternoon.

16 Q. So what did you do after the transportations ended that day?

17 A. We went again to our base, to that school where we were

18 accommodated.

19 Q. And at some point did you receive an order regarding redeploying

20 the 1st Company men that were with you?

21 A. Yes. Mr. Jevic came to our base and said there was a shortage of

22 policemen and it would be a good idea if we could help out, to cover part

23 of the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, because it was suspected that

24 groups of Muslims from Srebrenica were not in Potocari, that they could be

25 hiding there and could try to enter the town, so it would be a good idea

Page 10813

1 to gather as many men as we could, in view of the fact that they had

2 worked all day, to cover that road. So I picked the men who were in

3 Potocari earlier that day but who did not do anything special, and I

4 assigned them to be deployed along the road.

5 I can't remember whether there was someone from the local police

6 with me, but I know that we went somewhere from the outer populated part

7 of Bratunac, and then at certain intervals I would deploy two or three men

8 along the road, but not right next to the road because there was a lot of

9 traffic. We were either further up or below the road, depending on the

10 terrain.

11 Q. And do you recall approximately how far along the road or

12 approximately to what village on the night of the 12th you deployed your

13 1st Company men?

14 A. I remember the names of these places from some earlier situations,

15 but I was only able to really locate them later, when I was shown maps by

16 investigators. I couldn't really say, after all that had happened the

17 previous day, with any certainly where exactly my men were and how many

18 there were in a group. But when the investigators showed me the map and

19 when I tried to mark the map, I saw Glogova, and I remembered that place

20 name, and I also remembered that we didn't enter that place. So we must

21 have deployed our men up to Glogova somewhere, but where exactly, I can't

22 tell you.

23 Q. Did you inspect your men who were deployed along the road that

24 night, did you review them?

25 A. Yes. Before leaving to get some rest that night, I inspected the

Page 10814

1 men once again.

2 Q. And would that be in addition to the occasion on which you

3 actually deployed them?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, other than your 1st Company members, do you know whether

6 there were any other special police or Jahorina members deployed along the

7 road that night, the 12th of July?

8 A. When the 2nd Company arrived, that moment is a bit hazy in my mind

9 because I keep mixing -- confusing the two days, the 12th and the 13th.

10 They blend in in my memory. I don't believe they came on the 12th. I

11 think they were there on the 13th because we secured the same road on the

12 13th again, just broadening a bit the area we guarded. I don't know

13 exactly when they arrived, and I must say I was also taken aback to see

14 them. I couldn't understand what they were doing there. I'm not really

15 sure when they arrived, but I know I was in contact with them on the 13th,

16 and I'm not sure about the 12th.

17 Q. Okay, sir. Do you remember discussing these two evenings and the

18 deployed of the Jahorina members along the road with myself during your

19 proofing sessions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you also remember discussing these events with the

22 investigators in your interview in 2000?

23 A. I have a copy of that interview and a recording. I think that

24 confused me a bit. I still believe that I was not in contact with them on

25 the 12th, and I'm inclined to think that they were not even there on the

Page 10815

1 12th, but I'm not sure.

2 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, sir, I'm referring to the evening of

3 the 12th, when you had your men deployed approximately to Glogova. Okay?

4 I'm not talking about what your recollection is in terms of the day of the

5 12th. I'm simply talking about the evening of the 12th and the evening of

6 the 13th, just to make sure you understand that's the question I'm asking

7 you. Okay?

8 I want to ask you: Do you recall speaking and meeting with

9 Mr. Ikonic at any time on the evening of the 12th?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Do you remember, sir, telling the investigators in 2000 and

12 telling me during your proofing session that you met with Mr. Ikonic in

13 Konjevic Polje on the evening of the 12th? Do you remember that, sir?

14 A. I don't remember, but that's not what was written in the

15 transcript, if my translation of that interview is correct. That really

16 confused me a bit, because -- because that transcript made me think, and

17 I'm not sure.

18 Q. Well, sir, we'll get back to that perhaps after the break, but

19 right now I want to move along a little bit, because I don't want to take

20 up too much more time right now on this issue.

21 Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened on the 13th?

22 A. On the 13th, in the morning of the 13th, I was again given the

23 assignment to go to Potocari because the transportation was not finished,

24 and I went there again, this time with a smaller group of men, because

25 most of my men had worked all night, and plus I was told there were not

Page 10816

1 too many civilians left, so it was not a problem.

2 Q. And what did you personally do that day, sir, in Potocari?

3 A. I was again on the location, doing the same job, but if I may be

4 allowed to share one of my thoughts with you, I'd like to say that what

5 happened on the 12th must have been pushed back into oblivion, and

6 whenever I see something in the media that reminds me of it, the image

7 that that brings up in my mind is the crowd, the people that I saw on the

8 12th, and there's nothing that happened on the 13th that stuck in my mind.

9 The only thing I remember is that after the transports were over, we

10 gathered close to the entrance to the UN base, waiting for our own

11 vehicles to arrive, and then I saw a couple of those vehicles belonging to

12 humanitarian organisations and I saw some people I knew from those

13 humanitarian organisations. That's what I remember.

14 But as for the final stages of the transportation, there is

15 nothing special that I remember.

16 Q. And on the 13th, sir, did you still have your radio?

17 A. I had a radio on me throughout the war, and I suppose I had it on

18 the 13th as well.

19 Q. And did you maintain radio contact with Mr. Jevic during the day

20 of the 13th?

21 A. I believe so.

22 Q. Do you have any recollection of seeing Mr. Jevic participating in

23 the transportations on the 13th of July, sir?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. Sir, did you, yourself, participate in the separation of any

Page 10817

1 Muslim men from their families on the 12th or 13th of July?

2 A. Emphatically, no.

3 Q. Did you see any separations of Muslim men from their families on

4 the 12th or the 13th of July?

5 A. No, certainly not. In the area where I was, standing right next

6 to the civilians, certainly not.

7 Q. Did you receive any reports of that happening on the 12th or 13th

8 of July?

9 A. Nobody was either required to inform me, nor did anyone inform me.

10 I received no information during those days.

11 Q. Did you see any civilians abused, hit, kicked, or pushed towards

12 or onto any of the buses on the 12th or 13th of July?

13 A. As for abuse of any kind in the location where I was standing with

14 the people next to me, that didn't happen. It was not the most orderly

15 transport, those were not tourist buses, that is true, but as for abuse,

16 nobody abused anybody.

17 Q. Sir, did you see any Muslim men directed towards or placed in any

18 detention locations around the UN base on the 12th or 13th of July?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you receive any information that that was happening on the

21 12th or 13th of July?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ever receive reports or information that any of your

24 1st Company members were seizing equipment such as vests and radios from

25 Dutch soldiers on the 12th or 13th of July?

Page 10818

1 A. At the check-point, nobody seized anything from people by force or

2 otherwise. Whether that happened elsewhere, I don't know.

3 Q. Well, sir, did you ever receive any information at any time that

4 any of your 1st Company members or anyone from the Jahorina Training

5 Centre or from the Special Police Brigade, for that matter, were seizing

6 equipment such as vests and radios from Dutch soldiers on the 12th or

7 13th?

8 A. I don't remember that.

9 Q. Did you receive any information, sir, that any of your 1st Company

10 members disarmed or took weapons from any of the Dutch soldiers on the

11 12th or 13th?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you receive any information that any Special Police Brigade

14 members, whether from the Jahorina Training Centre or elsewhere were doing

15 that on the 12th or 13th?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you receive any information that any Special Police Brigade or

18 Jahorina members detained or otherwise restricted the movement of any

19 Dutch soldiers on either of those days?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Sir, do you recall having contact or conversations with any VRS

22 members on either of those days?

23 A. I did not have contact with members of the VRS.

24 Q. So after these transportations ended on the 13th, what did you do,

25 sir?

Page 10819

1 A. I went to our base. Back at the base, the usual procedure was

2 followed; washing up, tidying up. I had a problem at the time that was

3 very bad throughout the time I spent in Bratunac with that group of men.

4 The first night on the 11th, when we just arrived at Bratunac, as I was

5 waiting to be accommodated, two members of my unit asked me for permission

6 to go and visit some family nearby because they were natives of that area.

7 I didn't think twice before I allowed it, but they never came back.

8 Another time, a group of seven or eight of them, and this is my

9 assumption because I never investigated, escaped across the Drina to

10 Serbia. While I was there, about a dozen members of my unit went absent

11 without official leave, and I suppose they went to Serbia. That's what

12 kept me busy for a while.

13 Then late in the afternoon, it might have been evening already,

14 Jevic came again and told me that we were to go to guard the road again,

15 that the 2nd Company was there as well. I wondered what they were doing

16 there, how come they arrived. The answer I got is that they had their own

17 assignment, their own orders. And I then gathered a group of men who were

18 fit enough to go - I can't remember the exact number - and we covered this

19 time a long section of the road, and I believe that with one of those men

20 whom I deployed, or perhaps it was one of the instructors who was with me,

21 I looked at the slopes at the point where you enter Kravica, it's an area

22 I knew from before, and we discussed where some kind of positions could

23 be, and that's what helps me to remember that on that night we covered a

24 longer section of the road.

25 And from those earlier positions that we held in 1993, you have a

Page 10820

1 very good vantage point. There are no trees obstructing the view to the

2 road and it's easily recognisable.

3 Q. And, sir, just to be absolutely clear, when exactly were you

4 deployed to the Kravica area and in what capacity, previously?

5 A. The Kravica area, you mean what I mentioned in 1993 or --

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. This was an assignment that began in December 1992 and finished on

8 the 7th of January, 1993. The dates are well known because it's the

9 Orthodox Christmas on the 7th of January, and that's something that you

10 don't forget. That's when I, with a group of people from my unit or a

11 part of my unit from Bijeljina, because I was a commander of the

12 detachment, I got there with the task of protecting the civilian

13 population and helping in the operation to break through the

14 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. I was there for some 10 or 12 days. Our

15 assignment was, in a way, to offer some faith to those people that

16 somebody is thinking of them, that something is happening there, in any

17 case, while another main part of the members of the Army of Republika

18 Srpska from the Bratunac direction tried to clear the road and to break

19 through the blockade that was there.

20 Do I need to explain what was happening?

21 Q. No. Thank you, sir, I appreciate that. I just want to ask you:

22 With respect to the features that you recognised in 1995 at Kravica, can

23 you just describe, very briefly, what you did with respect to those

24 features in 1992 to 1993, when you were there, just to give the Court some

25 context how you recall this particular area? I think you described a

Page 10821

1 hill, perhaps, from which you deployed some of your men.

2 A. Yes, but this question is not quite clear to me. I need to

3 explain the position in 1993; is that it? All right.

4 It was a specific position from the aspect of some kind of combat

5 concept because it's an elevation, there is a kind of elevation there and

6 a kind of step where there are some houses. It's like a ridge. And at

7 those houses, we made a kind of improvised line, and from that ridge we

8 occasionally opened fire at the Muslim positions in order to attract

9 attention so that a certain number of the Muslim forces would be drawn to

10 us so that we would, to an extent, make it easier for the Bratunac forces

11 to break through the blockade and clear the road.

12 Q. Okay. And it's just this feature which is one of the features

13 that you recognised in '95; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, and I recognised another place at the entrance of Kravica.

15 It's a place, it's a hamlet. It's a part of the Kravica village named

16 Djurici. This stuck in my mind, because my last name is Djuric, and for

17 those reasons I remembered it. It's from the Bratunac direction as you

18 enter Kravica. That's where it is.

19 Q. And how is it that on the night of the 13th you were able to

20 deploy your men as far as Kravica, whereas the previous night you recall

21 making it to Glogova only?

22 A. This time, too, we reached Glogova just before Kravica, but I

23 recognised that part of Kravica and I know that I did comment on that. I

24 don't know with whom. That part of Glogova is clear. You can see

25 everything. There's just one curve on the road; everything else is clear.

Page 10822

1 There are no woods, there are no hills. It's visible, It's a large, clear

2 area, so the visibility is good.

3 Q. I apologise, I asked an unclear question, sir. Let me just ask

4 you this: On the night of the 13th, did you have more men available to

5 you to deploy along that road, and if so, why?

6 A. I think that we did have more men available, because on the 13th,

7 during the day, the Potocari engagement was very brief and there were no

8 special other tasks, so we were able to engage a larger number of people

9 on security. I think that's how it was.

10 Q. And did you inspect your men along the road on the evening of the

11 13th?

12 A. I did. I did come once or twice, perhaps even three times. I

13 don't remember. But I did go, yes.

14 Q. And on the night of the 13th, do you remember making contact with

15 Mr. Ikonic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And would you describe that contact, please, with Mr. Ikonic?

18 A. I went towards Konjevic Polje, and near the road by Konjevic Polje

19 I met some members of our unit. I asked them, "Where is your superior

20 officer?" Then they explained that they were billeted in some barracks

21 near the road, near the intersection at Konjevic Polje. I went there and

22 I met Major Nikolic [as interpreted] there. It was just a courtesy kind

23 of conversation, friendly, without any explanations, what or how. "Major,

24 what are you doing here?" "I don't know." So it was something like that.

25 I didn't really discuss anything particular with him.

Page 10823

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that Mr. Thayer already noticed that the

2 witness says, "There I met Major Nikolic" there on page 23, line 6.

3 MR. THAYER: And then again at line 8 there's a reference --

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Major Ikonic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for pointing that out. We observed that,

6 too. The transcript will be corrected accordingly.

7 Yes, go ahead.


9 Q. Now, sir, on the evening of the 13th, what was your understanding

10 of the assignment that Mr. Ikonic's 2nd Company had with respect to

11 securing the road?

12 A. I noticed that he was deploying his men in the same way that I was

13 deploying mine, along the road, when I saw them, because Jevic told me

14 that the other company had come and I was expecting them to do that. As

15 to why he came, how he came, I don't know. He was a little bit confused.

16 We didn't comment too much on that. I don't really remember if we

17 discussed that in any particular way. It was just a cordial, collegial

18 visit because we were both there.

19 Q. Do you recall communicating with Mr. Ikonic over the radio that

20 evening?

21 A. I think that I communicated with him the second time I met him. I

22 think that we had contact over the communications system, over the radio

23 then. I think that's how it was. I'm not sure.

24 Q. And do you recall where you met Mr. Ikonic the second time that

25 evening?

Page 10824

1 A. I don't know where it was, but it was somewhere along the route

2 where his men were deployed. I don't remember exactly where that was, and

3 that part of the road away from Kravica is something that I'm really not

4 very familiar with.

5 Q. Now, is it your understanding, sir, that on the night of the 13th

6 that your 1st Company and Mr. Ikonic's 1st Company were able to completely

7 secure the entire road? And again that's Mr. Ikonic's 2nd Company and

8 your 1st Company, sir? I think I misspoke a moment ago.

9 A. No, we were not physically linked. I was probably receiving one

10 order and Ikonic another. I don't know. I mean, I cannot state this with

11 certainty. But I know that we were not linked and that in the second

12 conversation, when I spoke with Nedjo, this is something that I do

13 remember, that stuck in my mind, because there was nobody on the road. I

14 said, "Well, it's strange that there's nobody there between us." He

15 said, "Well, there's some troops up there above the road in the wooded

16 area, but to tell you the truth, I really don't know."

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last part of

18 that sentence.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which troops, who was up there, he

20 probably didn't know, either, so I don't know.


22 Q. And just to be clear, sir, when Mr. Ikonic was referring to

23 troops, was he, first of all, referring to Serb troops or Muslim troops?

24 A. Serb troops.

25 Q. And do you know whether he was referring to MUP or Special Police

Page 10825

1 Brigade troops or to regular VRS troops when he was making that reference

2 to troops being --

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's a call for speculation. I apologise.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.

5 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I'm simply asking him whether he knows,

6 based on his conversation, whether he was referring to MUP, Special Police

7 Brigade or just regular VRS troops, if he knows.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. It's not speculation because it's based

9 on his possible knowledge. If he is to speculate, then of course he knows

10 that he shouldn't answer the question. But otherwise he should answer it.

11 A. I don't remember him mentioning or saying that these were our

12 members from the Police Brigade. Then he would probably know who it was

13 and what, because he knows those people. He probably didn't know those

14 people. He didn't tell me anything.

15 MR. THAYER: Okay.

16 A. I mean, I really -- I don't remember him saying that it was

17 anyone, this person or that person. He said, "Some soldiers are up there,

18 but I don't know which ones." I assume that had anyone from the Special

19 Police Brigade been up there, he would have known about that. I assume

20 so.

21 Q. Now, sir, on the nights of the 12th and 13th, were any Jahorina or

22 Special Police Brigade or PJP members, to your knowledge, assigned to any

23 guard duties in Bratunac, itself, to your knowledge?

24 A. None of my people had any other duties, other than protecting the

25 road during the night. As for the others, I don't know.

Page 10826

1 Q. And were you aware that, for example, on the night of the 13th

2 there were thousands of prisoners who were being held in and around the

3 actual town of Bratunac?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Sir, at any time on the 12th or the 13th, did you receive any

6 information of Muslims surrendering or being captured along that

7 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road?

8 A. None of my soldiers told me anything, and when I was there I

9 didn't notice anything. Therefore, I don't know.

10 Q. And, sir, do you recall whether you were actually on that road at

11 any time during the day on the 12th or the 13th?

12 A. On the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on the 12th or the 13th during

13 the day, I was not there.

14 Q. And were any of your 1st Company members deployed on that road

15 during the day on the 12th or 13th, sir?

16 A. As far as I know, no.

17 Q. And on the evening of the 13th, is it your testimony that as far

18 as you know, the only troops securing that Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road

19 were your 1st Company members and Mr. Ikonic's 2nd Company members?

20 A. I know that we were and that Nedjo was there, but I cannot say

21 with any degree of certainty if any others were doing that.

22 Q. Well, do you recall seeing any other troops along the road on the

23 evening of the 12th or the 13th, performing the same duties that your

24 1st Company members were performing, sir?

25 A. On the night of the 12th and the night of the 13th, that road,

Page 10827

1 especially until midnight, was very busy. There was an exceptionally

2 large number of vehicles passing, military police vehicles, civilian

3 vehicles. I wasn't paying any attention to that because it was not my

4 task to watch the traffic, but to protect the road or actually the area

5 behind the road so that nobody would make an incursion onto the Bratunac

6 road.

7 Q. And that brings us to the 14th, sir. First of all, where did you

8 spend the night of the 13th of July?

9 A. Other than those two visits, I spent most of that time at the base

10 where the unit was billeted.

11 Q. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber what you did on the 14th of

12 July?

13 A. I cannot state it with 100 per cent degree of certainty, but I

14 know that on that day, the 14th, we had no activities. We were down there

15 at the school, and I know that I -- I assume that on the 14th, I went to

16 Bijeljina to change, to take some fresh clothes, because everything that I

17 was wearing was destroyed. And we had a problem. I and a large number of

18 the unit members got some kind of rash, probably because of the bad

19 hygiene and everything that was happening during those days.

20 Q. So did you go to Potocari on the 14th, sir, at all?

21 A. No, as far as I can remember.

22 Q. And do you recall going to Bratunac for any specific reason on the

23 14th?

24 A. I assume that if I went to Bijeljina on the 14th, that I had to

25 pass through Bratunac, because the road passes. It's the only road.

Page 10828

1 Q. But do you recall having to conduct any business or have any

2 specific reason to be in Bratunac on the 14th, other than passing through

3 on your way to Bijeljina?

4 A. No, I don't remember having any assignment or business.

5 Q. Now, on the 14th, sir, did you receive any information of anything

6 in particular happening along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road the

7 previous day?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you receive any information of Muslims surrendering or being

10 captured along that road that day, the 13th of July?

11 A. I don't remember receiving any information.

12 Q. Sir, did you ever receive any information about an incident which

13 occurred at the hangar in Kravica on the 13th of July?

14 A. Much later, I heard stories, gossip, all kinds of talk, but I

15 think that that is not for me to bring before this Court. These are other

16 people's stories. They can be true or not. In wars like this one of

17 ours, there was many exhibitionists, boasts about some things. Some

18 people admonish themselves, they wish they weren't in some place. It's

19 all up to different people, how they take it. I heard something through

20 the media, from what I can recall now, some questions, I think, it seems

21 to me, the investigator put to me in 2000, and all of that is a mixture,

22 so that I really don't know when I heard which information or what it was.

23 More or less, I know from these stories later that something happened.

24 Q. Well, when do you recall first hearing that anything unusual had

25 happened at the hangar in Kravica?

Page 10829

1 A. Much, much later, after all of those events. I don't know, I

2 don't remember.

3 Q. Okay. Can you at least say whether it was a week, a month, six

4 months, or a matter of years later that you first heard about anything

5 unusual happening at the Kravica warehouse?

6 A. I don't remember exactly. I know that more or less there was some

7 kind of general story that some Serb soldiers were killed there, and then

8 out of revolt, because of that killing, there was retribution, something

9 like that. I really don't know what. I don't know.

10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I see we're nearing the break. I have

11 a couple of final areas to go into with this witness. If we may, can we

12 break now and I might be able to streamline my final direct examination.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Thayer. We'll have a 25-minute break

14 starting from now. Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you continue and finish, Mr. Thayer, I refer

18 you to the exhibits tendered and admitted with witness number 168. It was

19 not a protected witness, Danko Gojkovic. It has been brought to my

20 attention that out of the documents -- amongst the documents that we

21 admitted as Prosecution exhibits, there are several that have not yet been

22 translated from B/C/S into English. I'm going to list them very quickly.

23 These will be marked for identification, as is the practice of this

24 Trial Chamber, pending translation which is accepted by both parties, upon

25 which then they will be upgraded to fully-admitted documents. This is

Page 10830

1 P2778, 2779, 2782, 2781, 2782, 2783, 2784, 2787 and 2789. Okay, thank

2 you.

3 Mr. Thayer.

4 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President, and I'm advised that those

5 documents have been submitted for translation, and we expect that shortly.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Thayer.


8 Q. Good morning again, sir. Just a few more questions, and then I'll

9 be concluding my examination.

10 First, sir, I wanted to offer you an apology. I think I

11 suggested, during my direct examination, that you had stated during your

12 interview in 2000 that you had met with Mr. Ikonic on the night of 12th

13 July, and I reviewed the transcript carefully and, in fact, you did not

14 tell us that in 2000. I wanted to apologise. That was my error, and so I

15 apologise for that and for any confusion that that created.

16 I understand that perhaps our memories differ with respect to what

17 you told me in the proofing session, but that's okay as well. Okay?

18 Now, when you received this information, whenever it was,

19 concerning what happened at the Kravica warehouse, did you make any

20 inquiries or request any reports from any of your 1st Company members who

21 had been deployed along the road on the 12th and the 13th?

22 A. I didn't ask any reports from anybody. For a long time after

23 those events in Bratunac and that area, I didn't stay long at the training

24 centre; I had another assignment in Trnovo. And after that, I received

25 new orders and went to join a unit in Doboj. So I left soon afterwards.

Page 10831

1 And while I was in Bratunac, I didn't ask for any reports from anyone

2 because I didn't even know what was going on, nor was I able to ask for

3 any reports subsequently because I wasn't aware of what was happening.

4 Q. Did you ever discuss the information that you received about the

5 incident at the Kravica warehouse with Mr. Jevic?

6 A. My relationship with Mr. Jevic is a bit peculiar. We have not had

7 any private communication since 1993, in fact since I was replaced in July

8 1992. If we communicated after that moment, it was purely officially, no

9 private communication at all.

10 Q. Okay. Well, my question, in fact, is: Did you have any official

11 discussion with Mr. Jevic at any time about the information that you had

12 received about what had happened at the Kravica hangar?

13 A. Not that I remember.

14 Q. How about with Mr. Borovcanin, did you ever have any official or

15 unofficial discussion with Mr. Borovcanin at any time about what you had

16 heard happened at the Kravica warehouse?

17 A. No, I didn't talk to Mr. Borovcanin about it either.

18 Q. Now, sir, to the best of your recollection, where did you spend

19 the evening of the 14th of July?

20 A. To the best of my recollection, I went to Bijeljina, but whether I

21 returned the same day, that evening or the next day in the morning, I

22 don't remember.

23 Q. And when you say "returned," sir, are you meaning returned to the

24 Jahorina Training Centre?

25 A. That whole time, 14th, the 15th, is completely gone from my

Page 10832

1 memory. The only thing that I remember about that time is our return to

2 Jahorina and that I was engaged up there to organise for the members of my

3 unit, whose physical condition and clothing was in a terrible state, a

4 spraying against allergy and hygienic treatment, because they were

5 suffering from skin conditions. That's the only thing I remember. I

6 don't remember anything else.

7 Q. Okay, sir. May we have P02478 displayed on e-court, please. This

8 is a colour aerial shot, so it may take a little bit of time to upload.

9 And while we're waiting for it to upload, sir, I just want you to

10 think about, first of all, where you were spending your time on the 12th

11 and 13th, and see if you can locate that position on this map. Just take

12 your time, orient yourself to this photograph, and I want you first to see

13 if you can identify the general area where you were working on the 12th

14 and 13th of July. And with Madam Usher's assistance, I'm going to ask you

15 to circle that area. First, I just want to ask you, do you see that area

16 where you were working on the 12th and 13th?

17 A. In this area, in this locality, I had never been before or after.

18 The only thing I remember are these trees here and this area around the

19 trees. It's the only indication that helps me remember where exactly we

20 were, and I know I deployed my men up to here factory, up to this factory

21 here, and I remember people standing on this plateau, looking for shade.

22 I remember that I was here. [Marks]

23 Q. Now, you've drawn a narrow, oval shape, and just so I'm clear,

24 you're indicating where you recall you were working on the 12th and the

25 13th by that circle, by that oval?

Page 10833

1 A. Yes, on the road. That's where they were moving.

2 Q. Underneath that little oval, sir, would you just write your

3 initials?

4 A. Here? Can I do it here? [Marks]

5 Q. That's good enough, sir, thank you. And you indicated that some

6 of your soldiers had been deployed in the area, I think, of a factory. Can

7 you just indicate that location with an "X"?

8 A. My soldiers were deployed around the civilians, and depending on

9 how the civilians moved, in which area they filled, my men adjusted their

10 position. There was no strictly-defined guard post. And I think, to the

11 best of my recollection, this is the structure. [Marks]

12 Q. And you've indicated that with three dots and then an "X."

13 Now, the last question I have for you, sir, with this overhead, is: Can

14 you please mark with an arrow the direction you took when you entered

15 Potocari on the morning of the 12th?

16 Okay. You've drawn two arrows. The lower arrow, I take it, is to

17 depict the route that you personally took; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, I personally took the road, and a number of my men went on

19 the left and on the right side of the road, whereas another group went

20 behind this factory or whatever it is, this base here. I remember there

21 was a little river there. That's how they went. And when I was somewhere

22 at the beginning, the soldiers from here told me that they had seen a

23 couple of burned houses with smoke still coming from these houses.

24 Q. Okay. And when you refer to the soldiers "from here," sir, you're

25 referring to the soldiers represented by the upper arrow who travelled

Page 10834

1 around the UN base; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, the members of the unit that I led.

3 Q. Now, finally, sir, would you just, under the lower arrow that

4 denotes your movement, would you just place your initials and "12 July,"

5 please?

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And above the upper arrow, if you would just write "1st Company."

8 A. The lower arrow is also the 1st Company. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you, sir. And if you would -- I see my friend --

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I would like to assist the Trial Chamber and my

11 colleague, because this might cause a confusion if it's written "1st

12 Company," because there was also the 1st Company of PJP and the 1st

13 Company from Jahorina. If he could just add "Jahorina Centre", just to

14 make it sure that everything is clear on these markings.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a very wise suggestion, Mr. Thayer,

16 if you could follow it. He needs to tell us what he has written.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote again "Company," but it's

18 not necessary because it's already written. I should write "Training

19 Centre, Jahorina."


21 Q. Thank you, sir. And if you would just place your initials and

22 today's date - it's the 2nd of May - in the upper right-hand corner, and

23 then we'll be done with this.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has already put his initials at the

25 bottom of that page, in the center.

Page 10835

1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I mean, abundance is always a good thing to

3 have.

4 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Madam Usher. I think we can save

5 the document.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 Do you have any further questions?

8 MR. THAYER: Not on this document, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


11 Q. Now, sir, I just want to show you a very brief video clip that you

12 were shown in 2000 and again during our proofing session.

13 [Videotape played]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you require sound or not?

15 MR. THAYER: I'm just looking to see if people -- we're not

16 receiving sound. I don't think it's necessary to have sound,

17 Mr. President, but if my friends do, then --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyone wishes to be able to hear the sound? Any of

19 the accused?

20 Okay, go ahead. I think we can live without it.

21 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Sir, pausing at, do you recognise anyone in this frame?

25 A. Yes, I do. That's the officer of the UN with whom, on that day,

Page 10836

1 the 12th, and the next day, 13th, I worked together guarding the

2 civilians. That's the one I described as a tall, blonde, well-built young

3 man.

4 Q. And he's --

5 A. Lieutenant, if his name is van Duijn, then I got it right. But I'm

6 not sure about the name. It doesn't mean anything to me.

7 Q. And would you just identify an article of clothing that he's

8 wearing, for the record?

9 A. He's wearing the blue UN cap, a T-shirt.

10 Q. Okay. That's fine, sir, thank you.

11 [Videotape played]

12 Q. Sir, we've frozen at Do you recognise the individual

13 in the middle of this frame wearing the blue vest?

14 A. I see in this image that that is the man who interpreted for us.

15 I suppose that it's one of the men from my unit who helped us with

16 interpretation, because I had no specific duties concerning liaison with

17 the UN, so I wasn't supplied with an interpreter beforehand. This was an

18 arrangement made on the spot. He is a bit unusually dressed, and even his

19 blue bulletproof vest is a bit unusual. I suppose that's him. I'm not

20 sure.

21 Q. Do you recall this individual's name or nickname, by any chance?

22 A. I saw it on the subtitles, but you also reminded me. Miki is a

23 nickname I knew him by, but it doesn't mean anything specific to me.

24 Q. So is it fair to say, sir, that you don't have an independent

25 recollection, as you sit here today, as to what this interpreter's name

Page 10837

1 was?

2 A. I don't. I don't remember the names of any of the members of my

3 unit. I spent only a few days with those men, and I didn't memorise their

4 names. And as for the faces, it was a long time ago. I really don't

5 remember.

6 Q. And do you recognise who the individual is at the far left of this

7 frame?

8 A. Of course I recognise myself.

9 [Videotape played]

10 Q. Sir, we've stopped the video at When we reviewed this

11 video clip in my office, you pointed out something about an individual in

12 this frame. Can you just share that with the Trial Chamber, please?

13 A. As we were talking, I noticed that this was a member of my unit on

14 the left, and there were UN members on the right-hand side. Wherever

15 their men were, there were some of my men, so all the time there was

16 cooperation between us, although it didn't follow any strict orders. It

17 was a natural arrangement that just happened on the ground.

18 Maybe some people would have something to say about the cigarette

19 in this man's mouth, but considering the way he joined the unit, I'm not

20 surprised, really.

21 [Videotape played]

22 Q. Finally, sir, do you recognise anyone in this frame at

23 A. It is a bit unclear, but I believe that's Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin,

24 the one on the left.

25 Q. Sir, we've advanced it to Does that help you any with

Page 10838

1 the certainty of your identification?

2 A. Yes, it's easier, and I also see the insignia of his brigade on

3 his arm. Yes, that's Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin.

4 Q. And when you say "his brigade," what are you referring to, sir?

5 A. I mean the Special Brigade of the Police of the Republika Srpska.

6 Q. Just a couple of final questions, sir.

7 Did you discipline any of your Jahorina Training Facility members

8 in connection with their deployment to Potocari and the

9 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road in July of 1995?

10 A. Since I had no information that they had done anything that would

11 merit any sort of measures against them, I didn't take any steps. And as

12 for Potocari, I think that would have been absurd.

13 Q. And are you aware, sir, of any investigation being initiated by

14 the Special Police Brigade or by the RS MUP following the deployment of

15 the Special Police Brigade forces to those areas, Potocari and the

16 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road in July of 1995?

17 A. In that period when all that was happening, I was an officer who

18 had been replaced. I was not with the command of the brigade or the

19 command of the detachment. I was an instructor, and I had no access to

20 information that would tell me whether something had been initiated or

21 not. I don't know. I can't say anything one way or another because I was

22 not part of a combat unit as an officer.

23 Q. Did Mr. Jevic ever ask you for any report concerning the actions

24 of the Jahorina or Special Police Brigade members in Potocari and along

25 the road in July of 1995?

Page 10839

1 A. No, no report was required of me, and I didn't write anything.

2 Q. Did Mr. Borovcanin ever ask you for any such report?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did anyone, sir?

5 A. No one, ever. The only contact I had with the Ministry of the

6 Interior was when I gave a statement to the commission established to

7 investigate the events in Srebrenica. That's when I was in contact with

8 the MUP, and I gave them my statement to the OTP investigators from 2000.

9 Q. And this commission is what's commonly known as the RS Commission;

10 is that correct?

11 A. Yes, the Commission of Republika Srpska for inquiry into events of

12 Srebrenica and the area of Srebrenica.

13 Q. And just to be clear, did you provide any statement to the

14 RS Commission, other than providing your 2000 interview with the OTP?

15 A. I didn't give any particular report to the police. I just gave

16 them a transcript of my interview with the investigators from 2000. And I

17 had another contact with somebody concerning this case when the Defence

18 team of Mr. Blagojevic, I believe, asked some clarification from me

19 regarding the statement I had given, and I believe it was certified by an

20 official of the Tribunal. I remember signing every page. So I provided

21 that addendum, and that's all the communication I had in this connection.

22 Q. And from your understanding, sir, the statement that you gave to

23 the Blagojevic Defence team, along with your OTP statement from 2000,

24 became some type of evidence in that trial, but you didn't have to

25 testify; is that correct?

Page 10840

1 A. Precisely.

2 MR. THAYER: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions at this

3 time.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

5 Now, let's review a little bit the position from the Defence side.

6 I have the Borovcanin Defence team that have asked for two and a

7 half hours. Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I believe I'll stick to my

9 estimation. It could be a bit less, maybe a bit more, but that's a rough

10 estimation. I think it's going to be --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And the Beara and Miletic teams have asked for 45

12 minutes each. Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. It will probably be a

14 little less than that, probably closer to 30 minutes, if at all.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ms. Fauveau has, for the record, nodded.

16 Actually, is it 45 or 10 minutes, Madame Fauveau?

17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] There's been a mistake,

18 unfortunately. I will need 45 minutes rather than 10 minutes, but it

19 depends on the questions put by the other Defence counsel. Then it could

20 not perhaps take as long.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And, Mr. Zivanovic, you requested 20 minutes?

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, and I stick to my estimate at

23 the moment.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 And, Mr. Haynes, you requested a quarter of an hour?

Page 10841

1 MR. HAYNES: We'll have no questions of this witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 So let's -- I suppose it would be better if you start,

4 Mr. Lazarevic, unless there is an arrangement -- a different arrangement.

5 Okay, go ahead.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I'm going to start.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Good day, sir. I am a lawyer, Aleksandar Lazarevic. I am

9 defending Mr. Borovcanin, and I'm going to put certain questions to you

10 about your testimony before this Tribunal.

11 First of all, I would like to clarify certain facts relating to

12 your statement to the Prosecutor and the Defence of Colonel Blagojevic.

13 Mr. Karnavas also asked you about that, except other than the testimony

14 today and yesterday and these statements that you gave to the

15 investigators from the Prosecutor's office, and the statement you gave to

16 Mr. Blagojevic's Defence attorney, which was a clarification of certain

17 details from your statement, you practically did not provide any other

18 statements either to the bodies of the Tribunal or the Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina or Republika Srpska; you didn't provide any statements

20 to any state organs?

21 A. I gave a statement to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. However,

22 there was probably a replacement in the Commission because they called me

23 again, and it was the same thing. I didn't give another statement, but

24 they summoned me twice. I didn't give any statement in particular, I

25 mean, except once, which I was requested to do, and I did this in written

Page 10842

1 form.

2 Q. To clarify, because of the existence of certain written documents

3 which could have some relation to the further course of these proceedings,

4 you handed them over your statement; you didn't say anything more about

5 these events?

6 A. I didn't talk about the events with them. I just handed them over

7 a copy of the conversation or interview I had in 2002 with the

8 investigators in Banja Luka.

9 Q. Thank you very much. That clarifies things to quite a significant

10 degree.

11 At the beginning, I would just like to put several questions to

12 you in order to clarify to the Trial Chamber the status and the structure

13 of the Jahorina Training Centre, and I think you are the exact witness who

14 could help us in that.

15 In your interview with the investigators of The Hague Tribunal,

16 this is in October of 2000, on page 15 of your statement, or page 20 of

17 your statement in English, you said that the Jahorina Centre had about 100

18 people in training. These were deserters who had been brought from

19 Yugoslavia, and they were mostly deployed in the Army of Republika Srpska

20 while a smaller number to the Ministry of Internal Affairs. This part of

21 your statement, did I understand you correctly if I say that these people

22 who were assigned to the -- or these deserters who were sent for training

23 to the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska were actually the

24 people who were from the Jahorina Centre who were there for training?

25 A. When -- well, Mr. Jevic told me when these people were being

Page 10843

1 brought from Serbia, depending on the age of the persons and probably some

2 other elements that I'm not aware of because I wasn't there, I wasn't

3 assigning these people, but, anyway, these were sort of younger people who

4 could go through that kind of training with us, they were assigned to the

5 Ministry of Internal Affairs, and most of those people who had been

6 rounded up went to the Army of Republika Srpska.

7 Q. When you say "rounded up," I assume that these were conscripts who

8 had fled Republika Srpska, trying to avoid the war.

9 A. In the several days of training that we had and the time we spent

10 together, I listened to some stories of the experiences of those people.

11 There are some people who had left Serbia before the war, who left

12 immediately prior to the war, and there were those who actually left only

13 a couple of months before they were actually arrested over there. So

14 there were classic deserters there and there were others who perhaps could

15 not be described in that way.

16 Q. The Jahorina Centre where you were a trainer was founded by the

17 Republika Srpska Ministry of Internal Affairs; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it belonged to the MUP of Republika Srpska?

20 A. By the logic of things, yes.

21 Q. However, in order to separate things here, the people who carried

22 out the training, who conducted the training, people like yourself and

23 other instructors, they belonged to the Brigade of the Special Police?

24 A. Yes, except for two.

25 Q. I apologise, but your answer is not in the transcript or the

Page 10844

1 transcript is blocked. Oh, it's all right now.

2 Now, precisely, in relation to those people who were there for not

3 members of that Brigade of Special Police and they took part in the

4 training at Jahorina, these were therefore inspectors of the RS MUP and

5 they were also trainers from the School for Internal Affairs in Banja

6 Luka; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So if I were to define the centre as an organisational unit of the

9 MUP in which the Special Police Brigade had certain tasks, would that be a

10 correct definition?

11 A. I think that -- I don't know the definition. I cannot really

12 follow it quite precisely, but in essence the Police Brigade, that

13 organisational part, and then the other part is the training part.

14 Q. All right. I think that that is precisely what I had in mind.

15 A. Yes, yes, but I just can't follow the definition in that way.

16 Q. If, for a minute, we now go back to your interview with The Hague

17 Tribunal Prosecutor's Office, this is page 25, lines 13 to 15, or rather

18 on page 32 of the English version, speaking about the attendees that you

19 described as deserters, you said, speaking about them, that this was not a

20 special unit, I'm quoting you, and that it had nothing to do with the

21 special unit. And then continuing with your description, you said that it

22 was a group of people, some of whom -- actually, who were trained by a

23 number of people, who were not special operations people.

24 Further on the same page in line 25, you say, "It's absurd to put

25 deserters and special policemen on the same level." Do you recall saying

Page 10845

1 that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. In order to clarify your position, I'm going to put a certain

4 number of questions to you. These will be quite simple questions that you

5 will easily be able to answer with "yes" or "no" in order to cut short

6 your testimony as much as possible.

7 The attendees of the training centre, were they employed by the RS

8 MUP?

9 A. As far as I know, no. They didn't receive insignia, they did not

10 sign any papers or anything like that, for as long as I was there, at

11 least.

12 Q. During your testimony yesterday, you told us, in a lot of details,

13 speaking about your professional career and the training you went through,

14 you told us in detail about the training courses that you completed.

15 According to your best recollection, did any of the attendees that you

16 worked with in Jahorina have any police training course completed from the

17 ones that you mentioned?

18 A. As far as I can recall, no.

19 Q. You practically anticipated some of my questions, but did you ever

20 see any of those participants in the training of the Jahorina Centre

21 receive orders on the schedule or any paperwork indicating that they had

22 been employed full time by the RS MUP?

23 A. As far as I know, no.

24 Q. Did they receive salaries during that time from the RS MUP?

25 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

Page 10846

1 Q. And the attendees of the Jahorina Centre, were they authorised to

2 wear insignia of the Special Police Brigade which you would recognise when

3 the Prosecutor showed you footage of Mr. Borovcanin?

4 A. The brigade insignia is received by the detachment members and

5 members of the -- or the command brigade. They were not in either one.

6 They were in no way members of the brigade.

7 Q. Thank you. Just something more on that topic. It's about the

8 candidate admission procedure into the ranks of the Special Police. The

9 candidate who would like to join the Special Police Brigade would need to

10 complete a certain type of training; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this training comprised the policemen course, and the

13 candidate also had to have completed high school, at least, or secondary

14 school, at least?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He also had to pass physical and mental fitness testing?

17 A. This is the usual procedure for all employees seeking jobs at the

18 MUP, and there was some additional testing in case of admission to the

19 special unit.

20 Q. Only after all these conditions were met would a contract be

21 signed on employment with the RS MUP with a particular person?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And after being accepted, the person would receive an

24 identification card and be deployed into one of the detachments you

25 mentioned. They would receive the insignia of the brigade with a number,

Page 10847

1 which would be their ID number within the brigade; is this correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I would now like to specifically talk about the uniforms that the

4 members of the Jahorina Centre wore. They didn't have overalls that

5 members of the special unit wore; is that correct?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And according to the statement you gave to the Prosecution, their

8 uniforms were actually different versions of camouflage uniforms, and what

9 made them -- identified them were the belts and the boots; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Also, speaking about the uniforms, you said in your statement to

13 the Prosecution that before leaving for Bratunac, the members received a

14 certain amount of flak jackets. These were camouflaged flak jackets of

15 the RS Army. When we looked at this footage now shown to you by the

16 Prosecutor and when you saw this person, Miki, in a short blue flak

17 jacket, does that help you to remember? And there was some testimony to

18 this effect, that a number of these short-blue flak jackets were also

19 distributed shortly before leaving for Bratunac.

20 A. As far as these flak jackets or this protection equipment, there

21 was a shortage of that kind of thing even in the Special Unit, so I was

22 surprised that this was distributed in the training centre because no

23 combat assignments were expected, so why the flak jackets? I think that

24 some foreign organisation brought these flak jackets to the brigade as

25 some form of sample, something that we could possibly order or not, and

Page 10848

1 since they were not particularly suited to our use and were not of an

2 acceptable protection level, some of them sort of were left behind. But

3 it's possible. I didn't personally distribute these, so it's possible.

4 Q. Thank you. Now you have given us very important information in

5 this regard. But when you were in Potocari and when you saw a UN

6 observer, I'm not talking about the DutchBat, I'm talking about the

7 observers who wore long, bulletproof vests that protected also the neck,

8 not only the upper part of the body, those were not the same vests that we

9 saw on Miki?

10 A. Frankly, I didn't pay attention. If you have some more

11 photographs or video footage, I could tell you more because I am quite

12 well-versed in protection equipment.

13 Q. Thank you. That won't be necessary.

14 I would only like to ask you a couple more questions concerning

15 the brigade of the Special Police again, but in broader terms, the police

16 force of Republika Srpska in July of 1995, you have mentioned the subject

17 in your interview with the investigators, but since it hasn't been the

18 subject of your testimony before, I would like to go through it briefly.

19 In July 1995, members of the police of Republika Srpska did not

20 have ranks; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At the time, as you have said before in your statement on page 9,

23 there were only functional distinctions?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: And to clarify it to the Trial Chamber, this

Page 10849

1 difference between ranks and functional distinctions, I would like to show

2 you an exhibit, 4D103. It's an instruction of the Ministry of the

3 Interior of Republika Srpska in 1992, designating the functional

4 distinctions of MUP members. Unfortunately, the document is not in

5 e-court. We received it from our investigator very recently, and I would

6 like us just to have a look at it.

7 It's a booklet, and the last page indicates the designations of

8 various functions within the police force. Could we put it on the ELMO?

9 [In English] Your Honours, I already gave this evidence to my

10 colleagues from the Prosecution, and I have some additional hard copies.

11 As soon as it comes on e-court system, I will submit it.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djuric, please have a look at it. You see on

13 the screen, the marks of various functions within the police from 1992

14 until November 1995, according to our information. Can you confirm that

15 this is, in fact, what I've just said?

16 A. Yes. These are the functional designations, distinctions, of

17 various members of the police. The categorisation, of course, is

18 consistent with job description.

19 Q. And I would now like briefly to have a look at a still taken from

20 a video, if we can move to e-court. It's a video we received, V00-6846.

21 We received it from the Prosecution. And the counter starts at 1715 and

22 lasts until 1725.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: We don't need to hear the sound. It's just to

24 show the witness the functional insignia.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 10850

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, I am also allowed to ask you leading questions, unlike

3 the Prosecutor. We see Ljubomir Borovcanin in this picture; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what he's wearing on his shoulders are the marks of his

6 function within the police?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can we look at another functional insignia on the ELMO?

9 You will agree that it's, in the middle line, the second one from

10 the bottom? Sorry, from the top.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it is called Assistant Detachment Commander?

13 A. I'm not able to read this.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we zoom in? Is there any way we can zoom in

15 that -- we would still need to focus. Do you wish to stipulate,

16 Mr. Thayer?

17 MR. THAYER: Well, Your Honour, I can. I just want to clarify

18 something for the record, though, that I think may cure some of the

19 confusion. I think the transcript says, "Second from the top," but I'm

20 not sure that's correct. I think that may be the source of the problem

21 we're having.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. My colleague is 100 per cent right.

23 Q. [Interpretation] In 1992, just to clear this up, the Brigade of

24 the Special Police did not exist, only the detachment existed, so it's

25 practically the same thing, only in 1995 it was the brigade level;

Page 10851

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And we are talking about the central column, the second insignia

4 from the bottom?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can we look at the same column now, but the first insignia on top

7 with three stars and one short line. Is that the one you wore in the

8 special brigade, Police Inspector First Class?

9 A. No. I had the second one from the top in the central column.

10 Q. I'm sorry about this. Maybe I misidentified your functional

11 insignia.

12 A. If I can clear up one thing, since you mentioned it. From 1992

13 until 1995, the Special Brigade kept changing. It started with a company,

14 then several companies, then detachment, then several detachments. Such

15 things were not decided for one unit only. They were decided and

16 determined centrally for the force. So I don't think it's really correct

17 that these things changed from month to month.

18 Q. But what I want to know specifically is this: In July 1995,

19 Ljubomir Borovcanin could not have had the rank of lieutenant-colonel

20 because that rank did not exist within the police force at all?

21 A. He couldn't.

22 Q. Ranks were introduced in November 1995 in the police of the

23 Republika Srpska?

24 A. I don't know the exact date, but I remember it was in '95.

25 Q. The next thing I would like to show you on the screen is Defence

Page 10852

1 exhibit 4D98, and it depicts ranks on the police force of the Republika

2 Srpska when they were introduced. Will you please take a look.

3 Can you just confirm that that's what rank insignia looked like in

4 the police force of Republika Srpska once they were introduced?

5 A. I believe so. That's it, yes.

6 Q. What was the first rank in the police that you received?

7 A. Major, police major.

8 Q. So practically you have never been a captain of the police; you

9 were a major from the beginning?

10 A. I've never been a captain.

11 Q. And if, in July of 1995, somebody designated you as Captain Mane,

12 that person would have been wrong; right?

13 A. Absolutely, because ranks did not exist then.

14 Q. I'm sorry. When I was showing you these insignia, and it's my

15 mistake, the document is on two pages and I just showed you the first one.

16 In order to be able to tender this exhibit, could you please look at the

17 second page as well? Can you just confirm, since this is page 2, that

18 these two are rank insignia once they were introduced late in 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much. We will move on to another subject now, to

21 discuss the events of the 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th.

22 To take it chronologically from the moment you and your unit set

23 out from Jahorina to Bratunac, we have heard testimony before this

24 Tribunal that before the company set out on the 11th of July, the

25 then-commander of the brigade addressed the men from Jahorina, warned them

Page 10853

1 of the seriousness of the task that is awaiting them. Do you have any

2 recollection of that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. But during those days, let us focus on the 10th and 11th of July,

5 1995, you did not see Ljubomir Borovcanin at the Jahorina Centre at all?

6 A. I did not.

7 Q. Before setting out towards Bratunac, the members of your unit did

8 not have time to complete their training; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you set out, together with them, on the road to Bratunac.

11 Could you tell me, what was the prevailing sentiment among the members of

12 the unit concerning what was awaiting them? How did they feel before they

13 left for Bratunac?

14 A. Before leaving for Bratunac, we had a drill, a drill that had to

15 do with guarding a road. It was our joint exercise. And when we received

16 orders to go to Bratunac, we were told that this was going to be police

17 work. We didn't know exactly what we were going to do. And the

18 term "police work" was not exactly clear to them, and they had a lot of

19 questions, what it was going to be like and what it's going to involve,

20 and the evening before they asked me many questions. They were not

21 policemen, and everything that had to do with police work was foreign to

22 them. It must have sounded odd.

23 Q. So practically, when you were leaving, you and the members of your

24 unit did not know what your task was going to be there?

25 A. No, we just knew it was going to be police work.

Page 10854

1 Q. And then on the 11th of July, you arrived at Bratunac. Can you

2 tell us more about it? Of course, I don't expect you to tell us the exact

3 time, but was it in the morning, noon, afternoon?

4 A. It was late in the afternoon.

5 Q. Yesterday in your testimony, responding to one of the Prosecutor's

6 questions, you said that a total of around 70 members from the training

7 centre arrived at Bratunac. Do you remember that?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Speaking of the number 70, that's less than the full complement of

10 one company?

11 A. I said "70", and a full company should be many more. One part of

12 them left with me, but the unit had never been fully reinforced, according

13 to establishment.

14 Q. Thank you. And that same evening, then, when that, let's say,

15 reduced company arrived, two men had already run away?

16 A. Yes, two of them escaped before we reached our destination. In

17 fact, they had asked for my permission to go and visit their families, but

18 they never -- they never returned. They simply cheated me.

19 Q. And apart from those two who ran away --

20 A. Another 10 or so escaped. The base where we were located was next

21 to the Drina River, and Serbia is on the other side. They had ample

22 opportunity to leave; the proximity of the river made it only easier.

23 That's what I suppose. I did not investigate, but I suppose they crossed

24 the river and left.

25 Q. All right. So that evening on the 11th of July, you received an

Page 10855

1 assignment from Dusko Jevic for the next day. I'd like us to discuss

2 that, with an eye on the statement you gave to the investigators. It's

3 going to be roughly the same subject as you discussed with the Prosecutor.

4 You were told that close to the UN base it was expected that a

5 large number of civilians would gather, that you were to secure that area,

6 and that representatives of the authorities were going to negotiate about

7 what is to be done with those civilians, whether they were going to be

8 moved to Tuzla or something else; is that it?

9 A. Yes, that's what we were told, the assignment we were given.

10 Q. You didn't receive any kind of written order from Dusko Jevic; is

11 that true?

12 A. No, throughout my whole stay I did not receive any written order.

13 Q. If we were to break down this answer that you gave into certain

14 segments to see what they are telling us, let's do that. From the order,

15 we can find out that Muslims were already gathering in Potocari, that they

16 had fled Srebrenica, and that it was expected that an even greater number

17 of them would come to the UNPROFOR base; is that correct?

18 A. I assume so. Since we were engaged to secure them, it can be

19 assumed that a larger group were expected.

20 Q. So on the 11th, in the evening, already people were arriving to

21 Potocari, and they expected even more people? I'm asking this because of

22 the time that was established for this. Do you agree with me?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. The assignment given to you was practically to prevent unrest from

25 breaking out in the crowd, preventing attacks or harassment of them by

Page 10856

1 members of different units, or even revengeful civilians; would that be a

2 fair description of your assignment?

3 A. The assignment was not put in writing. It wasn't a classic

4 assignment, so it was stated freely. And this first remark about unrest

5 breaking out amongst the civilians, I don't recall that, but everything

6 else stands.

7 Q. All right. I'm not going to insist on something that --

8 A. I don't recall that particular item.

9 Q. What is important about the timing is that on the 11th, in the

10 evening, when you received the assignment, practically it is still unclear

11 what will happen with the civilians, it's not known and you cannot know

12 it. You had information that negotiations were underway and that

13 politicians or the authorities, whoever, will find a solution about what

14 to do with the civilians; is that correct?

15 A. From what I can recall, I think that that's how it was.

16 Q. When you received your assignment from Jevic, were you told that

17 members of your unit should attack the UNPROFOR observation post at

18 Zuti Most or to attack the United Nations base at Potocari?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In view of what we talked about just a while ago about the

21 composition of your unit and so on, would that have been possible with a

22 unit such as yours, to carry out an attack on the UNPROFOR base or the

23 observation post?

24 A. With that group of people, I would not embark on any kind of

25 attack, believe me.

Page 10857

1 Q. After this order, you already told us that you talked with members

2 of the unit about what will happen "tomorrow." Did you try to calm them

3 down? Were they frightened, upset?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the 12th of July, in the morning, you set off, as you said,

6 from Bratunac towards Potocari?

7 A. Yes, until that check-point that was at some point the line of

8 separation.

9 Q. Thank you. My question is if the whole unit set off that day or

10 did some members remain at the school?

11 A. There was a reserve group that stayed with the equipment and the

12 things that were there, because we just took our personal belongings with

13 us.

14 Q. Of those 70-odd people, as you said, how many left with you? Or

15 to rephrase it, how many stayed at the school where you were billeted?

16 A. I really couldn't give you the numbers, because I don't remember.

17 Perhaps about 40, 45 people were with me, let's say that, but I really

18 cannot recall the numbers. Forgive me, but it's been a long time since

19 then.

20 Q. All right. I'm not going to insist on the exact number. I just

21 wanted to get an approximate picture of how it was at the departure and

22 what were the numbers that you entered the protected zone with.

23 When you passed Zuti Most, as it's called here, you talked today

24 about how there was a UN observation post on the right side, and we called

25 that observation post OP Papa here, so I would like to put some questions

Page 10858

1 to you about that.

2 When you passed along the road, it was on the right-hand side, and

3 there were Dutch soldiers there; is that correct?

4 A. I don't recall that detail at all. I know that there was some

5 observation post we passed by. I have no memory of if there were any

6 people there, or how many. Please believe me when I say that I really

7 don't remember.

8 Q. Very well. But let's put this question a little differently now.

9 You and members of your unit did not open fire at the Papa OP when you

10 entered the zone?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And they didn't open fire at you?

13 A. No, no, they didn't.

14 Q. Had something like that happened, you would have remembered it,

15 surely?

16 A. Had we opened fire or had fire been opened at us, I would

17 definitely have remembered it.

18 Q. The evening before, when you were with Dusko Jevic, you said that

19 he had informed you that the Army of Republika Srpska had already passed

20 that way and that no danger was expected for your unit. However, did he

21 tell you that there were still certain groups that he didn't know where,

22 and that it was possible that some danger would be coming from some Muslim

23 groups?

24 A. Although he was aware of the kind of unit that we were, he told me

25 that there were no obstacles, that there were no formations that we would

Page 10859

1 have to go into conflict with, that the Army of Republika Srpska had

2 passed by there, that the terrain was clear, and that we needed to be

3 careful in any case because maybe some group could have been infiltrated

4 during the night or something like that. And that is why I deployed my

5 men in a semi-combat position, and that is how we were moving, just in

6 case.

7 Q. Thank you very much. And in the time from the observation post as

8 you were going towards the UN base, did you hear firing from surrounding

9 hills?

10 A. I know that they warned me that these houses were burning. As for

11 the shooting, as far as I can remember, no.

12 Q. Thank you very much. When you talked about the vehicles arriving

13 at Potocari, that at one point they arrived and that the evacuation

14 started, evacuation of the population, you described in detail the job

15 that you were doing. You already said here that you saw members of some

16 other military formations that were escorting the transports that were

17 present on the 12th and the 13th in Potocari. Did you perhaps notice

18 something characteristic about them, some insignia markings, so that you

19 would be able to tell us to which units the soldiers belonged?

20 A. No.

21 Q. During that time in Potocari, the 12th and the 13th, the Dutch

22 practically carried out the same jobs as you did?

23 A. More or less the same. I wasn't checking on what they were doing,

24 but we were there together that whole time, so I assume that their

25 assignments were the same as ours or similar.

Page 10860

1 Q. I would like us now to look at a short clip from the video footage

2 tendered by the Prosecution. It's a clip from a meeting at the Fontana

3 Hotel on the 12th of July, 1995, where the evacuation of the civilian

4 population was agreed. This is Exhibit P20 -- it's Exhibit P2047. The

5 number of the video is V000-4458, and the counter starts at 0.150.42, and

6 it goes on to 0.59.09.

7 A. I don't see anything in front of me.

8 Q. You will see it soon.

9 [Videotape played]

10 Q. In order to assist you a little, I would like to see first if you

11 understood what these gentlemen are saying in the footage.

12 A. If I'm not mistaken, the gentleman from the UN, the UN officer,

13 said that he received an assignment from his ministry to assist in the

14 evacuation, if I understood that correctly.

15 Q. Precisely, precisely that. My question is: No, now that you've

16 seen this, is whether the Dutch acted in accordance with their orders.

17 Did they act in accordance with the orders of their commander and he, in

18 turn, did he act upon the instructions from his defence ministry, as

19 stated here?

20 A. It's a little unclear to me, what I should state.

21 Q. I will rephrase the question. We've seen in this footage

22 Colonel Karremans, the commander of DutchBat at Potocari?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And you heard in the footage that said that he received an

25 assignment from his - the Dutch - Ministry to assist in the evacuation of

Page 10861

1 civilians from Potocari?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that he was offering the help of his battalion in the action.

4 When you came to Potocari and you contacted the Dutch throughout that

5 whole day and the next day that you described, is that what the Dutch

6 actually did, is that what Lieutenant Karremans promised to do to Mladic?

7 A. If you can count the part of assisting civilians as assistance in

8 the evacuation, then that would be that, yes.

9 Q. Thank you very much. That is what I wanted to hear.

10 A. Organising transport was mentioned here as well, so I was a little

11 bit unclear. That's why I wanted to clarify that.

12 Q. Thank you very much. In order to clarify your answer, I would

13 like to know if you had any duties in relation to the transport itself.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you. I think that makes your answer quite clear.

16 On the 12th of July, 1995, this is this first day in Potocari, you

17 personally did not see mistreatment, violence, unlawful conduct of the

18 members of your unit towards members of the local civilian population?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 Q. On the 12th, also you did not have contacts with

21 Ljubomir Borovcanin; is that correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And you did not see him at all on the 12th in Potocari?

24 A. As far as I can remember, no, I didn't see him.

25 Q. Since my question was put in a negative form and in order to

Page 10862

1 understand the response properly, I asked you: "You did not have contacts

2 with Ljubomir Borovcanin; is that correct?" And you said, "No." So we

3 don't want it to be understood that you did have contact.

4 A. No, I didn't have any contacts with Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Now it's clear. Just one more question,

6 because I can see that we're coming quite close to the break.

7 On the 12th, you didn't have radio communications with

8 Ljubomir Borovcanin; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, I had no contact with him.

10 Q. The only contact by radio was the one you had with Dusko Jevic; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Absolutely.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: We can break now.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's convenient for you, yes. Let's have a

15 break, 25 minutes, starting from now. Thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djuric, to continue with the

21 cross-examination, if you recall we stopped at the question that had to do

22 with your radio communications being only with Dusko Jevic, and you

23 replied that that was so. Now I would just like to continue on from

24 there.

25 Did Dusko Jevic ever, on the 11th, the 12th, or the 13th of July,

Page 10863

1 tell you that you needed to separate able-bodied Muslim men in Potocari

2 from the rest of the civilians?

3 A. No, he never told me that.

4 Q. Did any members of your unit take part in these activities amongst

5 the men gathered in Potocari? We know that there were many of them, but

6 out of that large number, were they meant to be separated from the other

7 civilians, men who were from 16 to 60?

8 A. I didn't see that, and I can guarantee that where I was, this is

9 something that did not happen.

10 Q. Thank you for that. Another question about this. The Prosecutor

11 asked you something similar, but did you or your unit ever receive orders

12 from Dusko Jevic, or anyone else, to take the weapons from members of the

13 DutchBat, their bulletproof vests, their radios, or any other equipment?

14 A. I'm not aware of that.

15 Q. Could you please now look at the screen. It's part of a video

16 that has already been used here, P2047. I have already shown to you

17 another part of it, and what I want to see together with you is at

18 02.26.04.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe we could play this once again to see it

21 better.

22 Could you please pay attention to what you're holding in your

23 hand?

24 [Videotape played]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What is he holding in his hand?

Page 10864

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm holding in my hand is a

2 Motorola, a hand-held radio, my Motorola that I had used for a number of

3 years.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Thank you very much. And to clear this up completely, it's

6 certainly not a held-hand radio that had belonged to any DutchBat members?

7 A. Certainly not. All senior members of our unit held hand-held

8 radios they had been issued from supplies.

9 Q. Thank you. And with that radio we've just seen, were you able to

10 get in touch with members of the Dutch Battalion?

11 A. Maybe it's technically possible, but I don't know. I wasn't in

12 touch with any DutchBat.

13 Q. Thank you. You explained to us in detail what you did in Potocari

14 on the 12th of July, and I would just like to clear up one more thing.

15 The job that you were doing is not what the company from Sekovici

16 or the PJP were doing; they were not working with you?

17 A. No, they were not.

18 Q. I'm sorry. My question was not fully recorded. I said the

19 1st Company of the PJP, of the Public Security Centre, Zvornik. And the

20 2nd Detachment of the Special Police Brigade from Sekovici. I suppose I

21 don't need to repeat the question. You understood me. I just did this

22 for the record. Thank you very much.

23 Can you tell me, what was approximately the time when, on the

24 12th, you left Potocari with your unit?

25 A. I cannot remember the exact time, but it was late in the

Page 10865

1 afternoon.

2 Q. Did anyone from your unit perhaps stay in Potocari after the unit

3 departed?

4 A. None of my members stayed in Potocari.

5 Q. Do you know perhaps whether during the night of the 12th any

6 members of your unit came to Potocari and came close to Muslim civilians?

7 A. No, our assignment was to cover the road, to guard the road, and

8 in between that we were at the base, I was at the base. No.

9 Q. After you returned to the base, to that school building, you were

10 informed that it was necessary to send your unit to the road from Bratunac

11 towards Konjevic Polje, and in response to a question by the Prosecutor,

12 you said today that that was what you had done. However, I'm interested

13 in particular days. You said that not all of the members of your unit

14 went to secure the road. Can you give us some numbers, how many left, how

15 many stayed?

16 A. I cannot give you numbers, but one part of the unit that was

17 resting -- that had been resting, while the others were in Potocari, they

18 went. And also another group of men that had no other job to do but just

19 stand by the civilians, they were also sent, but I cannot give you the

20 number, really.

21 Q. Of course, I'm not going to insist. But, at any rate, only a part

22 of your unit went?

23 A. That's correct, not the full unit.

24 Q. If I understood correctly the assignment that you had, and of

25 course I refer to your statement given to the OTP, lines 5 to 10 on

Page 10866

1 page 4, your task was to secure this section of the road so that groups

2 that could be in the area around Bratunac could not enter the town?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In other words, your task was to prevent them from coming into

5 town?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In order to make it clearer to the Trial Chamber, where exactly

8 your unit was deployed, what kind of deployment it was, how long they

9 stretched, I would like to look at a map, and I will try to help you mark

10 it.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we have 4D101 in the court system. Maybe I

12 should repeat the number. It's 4D101. It's going to take some time.

13 It's a voluminous file. [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Mr. Djuric, if I can be of assistance, do you think we should

15 enlarge it, zoom in a bit more?

16 A. Certainly. I cannot see anything here.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can you zoom it just a bit more?

18 Q. [Interpretation] So you see on the map where Bratunac is marked?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you see the road going from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje going

21 to the left from our viewpoint. Can you mark here where you started

22 deploying your men from Bratunac and mark the line along which they were

23 deployed?

24 A. Approximately, they were deployed up to the -- from the last

25 houses on the periphery of Bratunac. How to mark it here, if this is the

Page 10867

1 centre, then the initial point would be outside of the town. [Marks] And

2 then it went in the direction of Konjevic Polje.

3 Q. If we could just see enlarged the upper left corner.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Once the document is marked, we cannot move it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You can ignore it, however, no? You can ignore it

6 and we can have another one brought -- no, you don't need to save it, you

7 can just ignore it.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: I think we don't need to save it. Just I wanted

9 to show where Glogova is, and it can be seen on the map.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Why don't we do something? Why don't I

11 suggest something different? Madam Usher can perhaps assist the witness

12 to delete that mark, those marks that he's made. Okay? Then we can zoom

13 in the area, perhaps even a little bit more, I don't know, and now it's --

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: The left side.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, it's the left.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: And left and then in the upper corner, and then

17 the upper corner of this map shows where Glogova is.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You need to move it down a little bit more.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yeah, I think so.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You can even move it towards the right. Yes,

21 and now the witness should be in a better position to mark where Glogova

22 is.

23 Thank you, Madam Registrar, for your assistance.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You see, in order to indicate exactly approximately, we all know

Page 10868

1 where Bratunac is and where the houses begin from, but in order to mark

2 Glogova, where it is, in order to have an approximate idea of where the

3 members of your unit were deployed along the road on the 12th, the 12th at

4 night?

5 A. On the 12th at night, my unit was not deployed in Glogova, but it

6 was deployed just up to Glogova. At this map, though, I don't know. If

7 Glogova is here, then it should be somewhere before Glogova. Exactly

8 where this before is, I don't really -- I know this part of Glogova, but I

9 know it from a different aspect, from the positions in Kravica. So like

10 this, it would be difficult for me to give you a precise answer that it

11 was up to here or -- there's no particular marking or bridge or something

12 that I can recognise and then tell you that. Like this on the map, it's

13 difficult. I know that we didn't go into that part of Glogova because I

14 would recognise it. It was up to Glogova, but exactly where that is on

15 this map, I really don't know. If it's -- well, it's very difficult for

16 me.

17 Q. All right. Then we will not insist if you are not in a position

18 to do that. But in any case, it is your testimony that you didn't go into

19 Glogova, but that you deployed the last member of your unit just up before

20 Glogova?

21 A. Yes, that's right. And on the 13th, it was in Glogova, because

22 that was that area that I could recognise from before. So I know that we

23 reached those points, but it was only on the 13th.

24 Q. Let me ask you now, you were earlier in that area, as you

25 explained?

Page 10869

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How far is that from the place where the last member of your unit

3 was deployed to Kravica?

4 A. I really cannot give an estimate. I'm unable to.

5 Q. Very well, then I won't insist. During that night - we're still

6 talking about the night of the 12th - you said you toured your men who

7 were deployed by the road. Did any of them tell you that there had been a

8 conflict or a skirmish? Did any of the members of your unit get involved

9 in the conflict with members of the 28th Division?

10 A. No, there were no skirmishes. You could see on the faces of my

11 men that they were afraid, because they said you could hear somebody was

12 moving in the forest, there was somebody around, but they did not report

13 to me any action, any combat.

14 Q. Of course, if something had happened, they would have certainly

15 told you?

16 A. Well, they couldn't have concealed it from me. I could have read

17 their faces easily.

18 Q. If I can just try to clarify the whole situation, you said that

19 only a part of your unit was deployed there, and regardless of the fact

20 that you were unable to mark this map, we are still talking about a

21 stretch of several kilometres. How exactly did you deploy them along the

22 road? What was the criterion? How would you decide where you would put

23 one man or a group of men, how many were needed in each spot, et cetera?

24 A. When Mr. Jevic told me to do that, he told me that during the

25 night, since there was a shortage of policemen, we would do that so that

Page 10870

1 there would be no incursions into Bratunac, so I placed one or two men at

2 certain intervals, depending on the terrain, so that they have a vantage

3 point in a perimeter, preferably wide. But, frankly, all this has become

4 very vague in my memory. There was no special criterion. I just deployed

5 them at certain intervals.

6 Q. So if I said roughly that perhaps 50 of your men were deployed

7 along a line of several kilometres, that would be a rough idea of how your

8 forces were placed along that road?

9 A. Yes, roughly.

10 Q. Thank you. Can we now move to the 13th of July. On the 13th, in

11 the morning, together with a part of your unit that was not deployed on

12 the road, you returned to Potocari; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If I understood that correctly, those who were there on the road

15 in the night of the 12th, they stayed behind at the base, and those who

16 had spent the night at the base, they went to Potocari?

17 A. Yes, but I cannot give you exact numbers. I can say -- I cannot

18 say that 27 went and the others stayed. I can only tell you that it was a

19 smaller group than the day before because we expected a smaller workload.

20 Q. And at the moment when -- on the 13th, when you arrived in

21 Potocari with a part of your unit, evacuation had been underway for quite

22 a while?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And on the 13th, before you arrived, the evacuation was handled

25 only by the Dutchmen?

Page 10871

1 A. I found them in the same place where I left on the previous day,

2 so I suppose it was handled by them.

3 Q. And in the course of the 13th, when you and your unit returned to

4 Potocari, you just joined the Dutchmen in what they were doing?

5 A. Yes. It was just like the day before, although there were no

6 crowds anymore, so it was not necessary to make any cordons like the day

7 before. We were there just to secure the civilians.

8 Q. And that day, sometime until 3.00 p.m. -- by 3.00 p.m. your job in

9 Potocari was over?

10 A. Yes. When the last civilians left, we stood by the entrance to

11 the UN base, waiting for our vehicles, and I saw some men I recognised

12 from humanitarian organisations, some men I knew.

13 Q. If I understood your testimony correctly, in fact the statement

14 you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, on that day you were in contact

15 with Mr. Borovcanin; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Since that was not discussed during your examination-in-chief,

18 could you tell us about the circumstances under which you got into contact

19 with Mr. Borovcanin?

20 A. On the 12th, when I deployed my men around the civilians, since a

21 number of the civilians was close to the transport organisation, whatever

22 it was called, one of my soldiers informed me that there was a new bus he

23 found in the hangar. I asked whether he could start it, whether it was in

24 working order. He said, "Yes, I'll try." And I said, "Very well. If you

25 manage to start it, then drive it to the base where we are staying." I

Page 10872

1 called up Jevic and I found out from Jevic that Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin

2 insisted that the bus be returned to Bratunac Municipality and that the

3 bus should be theirs. And I must say I didn't quite agree with that

4 because the bus would have been very useful to the Special Brigade because

5 we were on the move very often and we really did not have a surplus of

6 equipment. So the bus was returned, and on the 13th we met up and we

7 discussed it, and I suppose that Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin wanted to let me

8 know that it was only fair towards Bratunac Municipality and they, in

9 their turn, would do us a favour if we needed transportation or something,

10 and that's what we talked about.

11 Q. Thank you. I think we have cleared up that episode. It's

12 certainly useful to know the reason.

13 A. Yes, that was the reason.

14 Q. Just one thing remains less than clear. Mr. Borovcanin called you

15 up, not Mr. Dusko Jevic?

16 A. I let Jevic know about this whole thing, and Jevic told me what

17 needed to be done. But Mr. Borovcanin probably, as a gentleman, wanted to

18 tell me personally, because it did not concern directly our work. I

19 suppose that's the reason.

20 Q. So it's possible also that Mr. Borovcanin was unable to reach

21 Dusko Jevic?

22 A. That's a possibility.

23 Q. But at any rate, that is the only contact you had with Borovcanin

24 that day?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10873

1 Q. Just one more question about your duties at the time. In addition

2 to that explanation concerning the bus, et cetera, did he maybe give you

3 any orders, instructions, or anything?

4 A. I don't remember any orders or anything.

5 Q. Thank you. So we are still back on the 13th of July. You are

6 still in Potocari that day. You didn't see the 2nd Detachment from

7 Sekovici or the 1st Company of the PJP from Zvornik?

8 A. [No verbal response]

9 Q. It seems that we don't have your answer on the record. Did you

10 see them or didn't you see them? Tell us again.

11 A. What is your question again?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is whether -- and Mr. Lazarevic is

13 still keeping you on the 13th of July, whether you are still in Potocari

14 on that day and whether you saw the 2nd Detachment from Sekovici or the

15 1st Company of the PJP from Zvornik. Let's take them one by one. You

16 confirm that you were still in Potocari on the 13th [Realtime transcript

17 read in error "12th"] of July. That you have confirmed on several

18 occasions. On that day, did you see the 2nd Detachment from Sekovici?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see the other detachment

20 from Sekovici.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And did you see the 1st Company of the PJP from

22 Zvornik?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st Company from Zvornik, no.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You have your answer now.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I didn't.

Page 10874

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Lazarevic.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one small correction for the transcript. I

3 mean, it is on line 17, page 75, it says "on the 12th of July." "You

4 confirm that you were still in Potocari on the 12th," and it should be "on

5 the 13th."

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. [Interpretation] On that day on the 13th in Potocari, did you see

9 any mistreatment, harassment, the seizure of personal property from the

10 civilian population?

11 A. No.

12 Q. While you were there, especially on the 13th, in Potocari when the

13 civilians were already evacuated from Potocari, did you see in that entire

14 area a large quantity of discarded personal items, backpacks, items of

15 clothing and other items that the civilian population discarded on their

16 departure because it would have been an additional burden, they didn't

17 know what to do with it?

18 A. At the place where they were, after they left, a large amount of

19 clothing, footwear, bundles, did remain. We didn't look in the bundles to

20 see what was in them, but in any case a large quantity of articles was

21 left behind.

22 Q. And these articles were in this broader area where they were put

23 up, these refugees?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During your testimony here, we saw some video footage before. This

Page 10875

1 was shown to you by Mr. Thayer, where you recognised yourself,

2 Lieutenant van Duijn, and this young man, Miki?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would like us to look at that again in order to clarify who is

5 saying what to whom and what it's all about. Can you please carefully

6 look and see what you say to Miki, what Miki says to you, and so on?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I'm afraid I'm not receiving any

8 sound, so I believe that the witness needs to hear it because it's in

9 B/C/S.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Your question is quite clear that we need to, but

11 maybe it's a question of we have to wait a little bit or is it a more

12 radical technical problem?

13 Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think past experience has shown that

15 sometimes it takes a little while for the sound to kick in. Maybe if we

16 try again or let it play, it might kick in.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I asked it's just a question of time.

18 Sometimes we have to wait.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Were you able to now hear the sound as well as look at the image?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you heard very clearly your own words directed at Miki, who

24 was interpreting, where you say, "Let them see if they want to go. It's

25 their job"?

Page 10876

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, in order to clarify this totally, because you are the one who

3 is saying that and we don't have a better witness who would be able to

4 tell us what was meant by that, therefore, "Let them see if they want to

5 go," who is supposed to see if they want to go?

6 A. Members of the UN.

7 Q. And when you say, "if they want to go," who are you thinking of?

8 A. The remaining civilians who were still there in small numbers.

9 Q. And the last part of this sentence, "it's their job," who does

10 that refer to?

11 A. To the members of the UN.

12 Q. So from your answers, then, it was the job of the members of the

13 United Nations to go to the Muslim civilians to ask them if they wanted to

14 go or if they wanted to stay, and then to inform you about it, and then

15 those who wanted to go can proceed to the buses?

16 A. In principle, it was our job only to secure that, just security,

17 no movement of civilians or any other organisation of transport or

18 anything related to that.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Yes, that is how I understood your role as

20 well.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.

22 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if I may, just to cut one redirect

23 question while we're on the topic, if we could just find out when the

24 witness's recollection is that this particular clip occurred on the 13th,

25 just so we have a time frame established for this exchange. That's all.

Page 10877

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, I think you can address that.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: By all means. I mean, I believe that both my

3 colleague and myself, we both know when this footage was shot, but I will

4 ask the witness.

5 Q. [Interpretation] From what you can recall, when was this filmed,

6 on the 12th, on the 13th, what time?

7 A. I don't know about the time. I cannot give you the exact time

8 because I did not observe events according to a clock or a watch. I know

9 that this was close to the place that I indicated on the map where we were

10 the whole time.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Does this satisfy my colleague's inquiry?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He doesn't know the time. I mean, Mr. Thayer has to

13 be satisfied.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. As for the participation of the DutchBat in the evacuation of the

16 civilians from Potocari, would you agree with my assertion that their role

17 in the organisation of the evacuation was an active one?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, pertaining to the evacuation, I would just like to discuss

20 one detail. We heard here a certain number of testimonies that, in the UN

21 base itself, in the fenced-in area of the base, there were over 4.000

22 civilians. Can you, as somebody who was there, who was nearby, tell us,

23 these civilians who were in the base itself, how were they evacuated? Do

24 you remember that?

25 A. I didn't enter the UN base. I don't know how many civilians were

Page 10878

1 there or what was there. I know that there were some people there, and I

2 recall Dusko telling me that these were the civilians who arrived on the

3 night before the 12th or in the night of the 12th. But in any case, they

4 stayed in the UN base, and these who were arriving on the 12th didn't go

5 in the base itself, but they stayed outside with all the others. I really

6 don't know how these people who are in the base itself were transported.

7 Q. Thank you very much. What I'm mostly interested in, in relation

8 to this, is whether you, yourself, or the people from your unit had any

9 kind of contact or had anything to do with the evacuation of the civilians

10 that were in the base itself.

11 A. No, we had nothing to do with that.

12 Q. On the 12th and the 13th of July, did you ever enter the UN base

13 in Potocari?

14 A. I've just said that I never entered it.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Just a couple of questions and then we will

16 be finished for today.

17 You don't speak English, do you?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. All your communication with members of the Dutch Battalion was

20 conducted with the assistance of a member of your unit; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. This member of your unit who was interpreting for you and the

23 Dutch side was not a professional interpreter, was he?

24 A. That's correct. As far as I know, he wasn't.

25 Q. And since you didn't speak English, cannot say how much the

Page 10879

1 interpretation of the communication between you and the Dutch Battalion

2 was correct?

3 A. That is true, I cannot say that.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm going to move to another topic, and I have

5 just one more minute.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfectly fine with us.

7 Mr. Djuric, we'll finish here today. We'll stop here. We'll

8 continue tomorrow morning, and hopefully we will finish with your

9 testimony tomorrow.

10 May I also remind you of what I told you yesterday, that you're

11 not to communicate with anyone or allow anyone to communicate with you to

12 discuss the subject matter of your testimony.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Have a nice afternoon, all of you, and we'll meet

15 again tomorrow morning.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:44 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

18 May, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.