Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11967

1 Wednesday, 23 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. And good

7 afternoon, everybody. Could you call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here. All

11 the Defence teams are here minus Ms. Nikolic. All right. Mr. McCloskey

12 and Mr. Thayer for the Prosecution. The witness is present.

13 Mr. Haynes, perhaps you can continue and conclude with your --

14 conclude your cross-examination, please.

15 MR. HAYNES: I hope so.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes: [Continued]

19 Q. Mr. Trivic, if you don't mind, I'm going to start by tidying up

20 two or three things. Firstly, yesterday we were talking about some areas

21 or some villages or towns that fell within the defence zone of the

22 Romanija Brigade, and what I wanted to clarify with you was that according

23 to your definition of the defence zone, the towns of Sokolac and Han

24 Pijesak do not fall within it. Do you understand what I'm suggesting?

25 A. I understand the question, but the municipalities of Sokolac and

Page 11968

1 Han Pijesak did fall within the area of defence. The area or the zone had

2 as its boundaries the forward defence line, the right flank, the left

3 flank and it is also determined by its depth, which means that it went as

4 far as the positions of the combat elements of the brigade were

5 stationed. The elements of the rear or logistics structures were far back

6 into the depth of the zone. Therefore, the territories of the

7 municipalities of Sokolac and Han Pijesak were within the zone of the

8 brigade.

9 Q. It's my mistake. I should have stuck with the word "towns." It's

10 the towns that were not within the zone of defence of the brigade.

11 A. Yes. Those that were not within that area were not within that

12 competence.

13 Q. Thank you very much. And perhaps you can correct a mistake I made

14 at the end of yesterday's sitting, which was I showed you some rules

15 relating to asanacija from 1991 and of course those were rules of the JNA

16 and not the VRS. You'd agree with that, wouldn't you?

17 A. Yes. I observed that but I didn't make any comments on that. The

18 instructions were issued as those of the JNA.

19 Q. And lastly, a question I meant to ask you at the very outset, you

20 were injured in combat on the 29th of July; that's correct, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Sometime prior to that, you had replaced the Zvornik Brigade

23 forces at Zepa under Vinko Pandurevic, who had left the area to return to

24 Zvornik?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11969

1 Q. And you can confirm, can you, that no time after the Zvornik

2 Brigade forces left Zepa did you ever see Vinko Pandurevic in that area

3 again?

4 A. That's correct. I didn't see him in that area.

5 Q. Nor did you see any forces of the Zvornik Brigade in that area?

6 A. No, I didn't. I didn't see a single unit.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Now I want to return briefly to a document I

8 showed you yesterday, which is P106, so if that could be put into e-court,

9 please. And I want you to look at the paragraph again which I asked you

10 to look at yesterday, which is paragraph 2, and I want you to, if you can,

11 assess the size of the total force from that information, which was sent

12 to perform operation Krivaja 95. And I would ask you to agree, if you do,

13 that that represents a total force of something like 12 to 1500 men.

14 A. On the basis of this document and the assignments issued to the

15 1st Zvornik, to the Bircani, Romanija, and Vlasenica brigades, the figure

16 would be just about what you said, because a company numbers up to 200

17 men. A light battalion would be at the strength of two reinforced

18 companies. In that case, precisely that conclusion can be drawn.

19 Q. Thank you. And just to confirm, which we can read in English

20 anyway, that the Zvornik Brigade contribution to that force was a light

21 battalion plus additional logistical support?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, according to your understanding, that meant that the force

24 that was sent to conduct operation Krivaja 95, facing the forces within

25 Srebrenica, was outnumbered five or six to one; is that right?

Page 11970

1 A. Outnumbered by the forces of the 28th Division that were there?

2 Is that the question?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the area of your axis of attack and the axis of the Zvornik

6 Brigade was rather easier to defend than it was to attack; would you agree

7 with that?

8 A. In any event, it was easier, given the lie of the land and the

9 time that the 28th Division had spent in that area, which gave it ample

10 opportunity to organise its defences.

11 Q. And do you agree that progress in separating -- in firstly

12 separating the enclaves was slow and difficult?

13 A. Any attack and movement of units in an offensive against a

14 well-organised defence, as indeed was something that we came across in the

15 enclave, is definitely very difficult.

16 Q. Were the forces of the 28th Division particularly strong and

17 determined on the axis of the Zvornik Brigade unit?

18 A. In view of the combat activities that my right adjacent unit

19 experienced, that was definitely something much fiercer than in the area

20 where I engaged my units.

21 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that on the 10th of July, the forces

22 of the Zvornik Brigade were driven back by the forces of the 28th Division

23 to their starting place?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were aware that those forces suffered losses in that

Page 11971

1 counteroffensive?

2 A. I heard that, in the evening briefing we had, that my neighbours

3 had experienced losses.

4 Q. By contrast, on the 11th of July, when the task had changed to

5 move into Srebrenica, you noticed that your neighbours were failing to

6 move forward in the face of almost no opposition; is that right?

7 A. There were quite a few problems experienced in view of the terrain

8 and the resistance we came across and the Birac Brigade, my left adjacent

9 unit, also experienced losses. I was later on informed by Colonel Andric

10 that his unit had experienced losses. Therefore, resistance was still

11 mounted out of some positions and strongholds.

12 Q. It may not -- it may be that you didn't understand my question.

13 What I was suggesting to you is that you noticed on the 11th of July that

14 Legenda was slow in moving forward, despite the fact that the enemy was

15 very quiet.

16 A. I myself issued some requests in that regard because elements of

17 my unit were successful in seizing certain elevation points and in

18 advancing somewhat more speedily. In that context I sent a request to

19 Legenda, or rather, to his soldiers that I came across along that axis to

20 get more actively involved in combat.

21 Q. Thank you very much. And lastly in relation to those events, you

22 were very close to the vehicle struck by NATO bombs on the 11th of July,

23 weren't you?

24 A. I was, and it is from that time that my injury to the right ear

25 dates. I wasn't directly hit. Rather, my ear -- hearing was impaired by

Page 11972

1 the detonation I was near.

2 Q. And I think you were able to see what sort of vehicles it were

3 that were struck by those bombs; is that right?

4 A. Some vehicles were struck. There were some command vehicles with

5 communications equipment mounted on them, some combat vehicles that were

6 following the combat formations but were not directly engaged in combat.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Now, if you don't mind waiting a few

8 seconds, I'm going to ask you that see a little bit of video now about

9 some forces that you encountered in Srebrenica town.

10 MR. HAYNES: Can you play it now, please?

11 Q. I'm sorry about this, Mr. Trivic. It's a technical problem.

12 MR. HAYNES: Well, it doesn't appear we are going to be able to

13 achieve that, so I'm going to have to jog your memory in a different way.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest that you may proceed with jogging his

15 memory. In the meantime, the technicians will try -- yes.

16 MR. THAYER: In the meantime, Mr. President, we may also be able

17 to assist if we're given a cite if it's on Sanction the Srebrenica trial

18 video, it's that exhibit and you've got a time, we can cue it up as well.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But please do proceed with your line of

20 questions trying to jog his memory in the meantime --

21 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and then if you need the video, we go to it, if

23 not, we jump to something else.


25 Q. I think during the course of your interview with the Office of the

Page 11973

1 Prosecution, you were shown some stills of a video of Srebrenica town

2 centre which featured soldiers wearing black uniforms, who were taking a

3 flag and putting it in a receptacle of some sort. Do you remember that?

4 A. This is a very specific question with regard to that footage, and

5 I didn't pay attention to that. I don't remember.

6 Q. Well, in that case, I'll have to leave that to one side and we'll

7 have to come back to it. Ah, thank you very much. Somebody has a still

8 of it. Can I show you this and maybe we can put it on the ELMO.

9 Do you remember seeing this photograph before?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you remember seeing soldiers dressed like this in Srebrenica

12 town centre on the 11th of July?

13 A. I can't remember.

14 Q. Well, you can see they've got numbers on them. They have been

15 identified for us in this and other proceedings and we know that they are

16 members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment. Was that a unit that formed any

17 part of the force that performed operation Krivaja 95?

18 A. The units that were listed in the command for active combat did

19 not include this one.

20 Q. Was there any military requirement on the 11th of July for any

21 further units to join your force in Srebrenica town centre?

22 A. I don't know that.

23 Q. In that event, then I'll move on. Now, during the course of your

24 evidence, you've told us about a meeting which you attended in the evening

25 at the command of the Bratunac Brigade. Do you recall that?

Page 11974

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And can we be clear at the outset that you attended one meeting

3 and one meeting only at the Bratunac Brigade command?

4 A. Yes, only one.

5 Q. According to you, the people who were there included the

6 following: Generals Mladic and Krstic, Colonels Blagojevic and

7 Pandurevic, and yourself. Is that correct?

8 A. Generals Mladic and Krstic, the then Colonel Pandurevic, and I. I

9 said that I wasn't sure whether Blagojevic was present. I seem to recall

10 seeing him that evening. I don't know whether it was at the meeting or

11 not. I made a note of that and I'm sure about that, that Pandurevic was

12 there because I remembered his reaction to the assignment issued. This is

13 something that I consistently stated in my earlier statements. All the

14 subordinate officers should have been there, just as I was.

15 Q. Well, you've pre-empted my next question, which is, presumably you

16 agree that there were other people there but you just can't remember who

17 they are now; is that right?

18 A. Yes. I can't give you individual names of the people who were

19 present.

20 Q. And presumably you'd also agree that you saw other people outside

21 the meeting at the command of the Bratunac Brigade on the night that you

22 went to that meeting?

23 A. The first one I encountered was the officer in the operations room

24 who directed me to the room where the meeting was to take place, over

25 dinner, were the people who I met that day but I cannot give you the

Page 11975

1 specific names.

2 Q. Well, let me see if I can jog your memory. Do you remember

3 whether Colonel Andric was there?

4 A. No. I said I cannot be specific about anyone else except for

5 Colonel Blagojevic and Generals Mladic and Krstic.

6 Q. You're now specific about Colonel Blagojevic, are you?

7 A. I don't know how shall I put it to you. I am not sure whether he

8 was there throughout the meeting, but I -- as far as I can remember, I did

9 see him that night.

10 Q. What about Colonel Nastic?

11 A. At the time he was a major. The same applies to him. I cannot

12 say for sure. They were supposed to be there, just like myself and

13 Pandurevic. It is possible that they had asked for permission for someone

14 to stand in for them and attend in their place, but I can't give you all

15 the specific names. He should have been there.

16 Q. Just one more: Major Jevdjevic, do you remember if he was there?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Do you know Momir Nikolic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall whether you saw him in the command of the Bratunac

21 Brigade on the night you were at this meeting?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. I'm going to, if you don't mind, read you some descriptions of a

24 meeting and see whether they sound familiar to you as the meeting you were

25 at. And the first is the description of General Krstic, and if anybody

Page 11976

1 wants to know, it's IT 9833, page 6575, lines 11 to 20.

2 "The meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters started at

3 around 2200 hours. The meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters was

4 attended by General Mladic, General Zivanovic. I was there, the commander

5 of the Zvornik Brigade was there, Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic. Then

6 there was the commander the Birac Brigade, Colonel Andric; the commander

7 of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, Colonel Trivic; the commander of the Bratunac

8 Brigade, Colonel Blagojevic; the commander of the Milici Brigade, Major

9 Nastic. Then there was Major Jevdjevic, commander of the battalion, the

10 communications battalion of the Drinski corps." He's asked a question and

11 it's at that meeting that you were given your assignment to command the

12 Zepa battle group; is that right?

13 Does that sound like the meeting you went to?

14 A. No, it doesn't.

15 Q. I'm going to read you something else. This is from the interview

16 of Momir Nikolic which is in e-court as 7D425. It's page 25 in e-court

17 but I'm not going to put it up. "After the meeting, which did not last

18 long, the commanding officers came out and they discussed the new task.

19 What I learned was that the task was about the forces which participated

20 Srebrenica were to be transferred to Zepa. That was one thing that I

21 learned. The following day, the following was that they did not manage to

22 reach an agreement about that and the reason was simply that there were no

23 intelligence, there was no reliable information regarding the location of

24 the column, I'm referring to the Muslim column, about the movement, about

25 the further targets and that because of that, one of the participants, and

Page 11977

1 this part I learned later, complained and they did not accept Mladic's

2 idea to move to Zepa." He's asked by Mr. McCloskey, in fact: "Which

3 participant complained?" And he replies: "I heard it was the commander of

4 the Zvornik Brigade, Pandurevic."

5 Isn't that the meeting you were describing to us earlier this

6 week?

7 A. It does sound like the meeting that I attended, in terms that

8 Colonel Pandurevic launched an initiative that this task be not -- not be

9 carried out and that rotation of troops be facilitated.

10 Q. I'm now going to read you something from an interview with Milenko

11 Jevdjevic. This is also in e-court but I'll read it to you. What he said

12 when being interviewed by Mr. Ruez was, "Yes, I was present but that

13 meeting remained because I received an order to go to Krivaca. That means

14 they got together. I don't know if following that, after I went, but it

15 was logical to expect they had a meeting. I was ordered at once to set up

16 a communications centre at Krivaca because the task was to transfer all

17 the units immediately to Zepa."

18 And in relation to who was there, he says, "The commander of the

19 Zvornik Brigade, Pandurevic; and I think the commander of the Bratunac

20 Brigade, Vidoje Blagojevic; the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade,

21 Trivic; the commander of the Milici Brigade, Nastic."

22 At the meeting you attended, was somebody ordered to set up a

23 forward command post in relation to the operation at Zepa?

24 A. I didn't make a note of that. I wouldn't like to guess. But I

25 suppose that a task for a new command post should have been assigned but

Page 11978

1 only after the task given to General Krstic. If it happened that on that

2 evening the commander of the Krivaja 95 operation was said that the

3 operation will be continued towards Zepa, logically to follow would be an

4 order to the corps to be transferred to a new area. This is my view and

5 what I would normally expect, according to the rules of engagement for the

6 activities to be directed in that course.

7 Q. In any event, you will notice that all three of those people

8 describe a meeting that includes all the people you recall being there,

9 and you. So it must have been the meeting you were at because you were

10 only at one, weren't you?

11 A. Yes. It was a meeting where a reaction was put forth to the

12 continuation of the activities, and the decision on this operation was to

13 be made by 8.00 the next day. Judging by Colonel Pandurevic's reaction

14 and my support of his reaction did not entail any changes. General Mladic

15 was then expected to address the soldiers the following day and to boost

16 their motivation for the task at hand.

17 Q. Now, each of those people, General Krstic, Momir Nikolic and

18 Miljenko Jevdjevic, describe a meeting which they say took place on the

19 11th of July at which you were present. Do you think they might be right

20 about the date and you might be wrong?

21 A. In my notebook, in which I recorded some crucial activities of

22 mine, this is what it was and this is how it's written. If it happens to

23 be some different date, then that would mean that my whole records were

24 wrong.

25 Q. Well, let's see if we can look into that a little bit. It would

Page 11979

1 have been natural, wouldn't it, to have had a meeting of the commanding

2 officers on the night of a victory, and it would have been according to

3 protocol for there to be congratulations, a celebratory meal and a

4 debriefing?

5 A. I am not disputing that this would be only natural, but I went to

6 this meeting after I had come to the Jahorina feature.

7 Q. And isn't that what General Mladic was ordering everybody to do at

8 about 6.00 in the evening in Srebrenica? He was telling everybody to

9 forget history, go on to Bratunac. That was his order, wasn't it?

10 A. General Mladic did not issue assignments to commanders but rather

11 to units.

12 Q. Forgive me, Mr. Trivic, but in discussing your encounter with

13 General Mladic in Srebrenica, you said it was not a conversation because

14 he was a superior officer. Did you not regard it as an order that he was

15 telling everybody to go to Bratunac?

16 A. If you're asking me about General Mladic, he would often, in his

17 encounter with people and one-on-one meetings, issue some tasks just in

18 passing and he never later checked whether they were carried out or not.

19 He never insisted on any other procedure than the one applied. I just

20 drew it to his attention that I was carrying out the task immediately

21 after receiving the order of that morning.

22 Q. Thank you. Well, we'll move on from that.

23 A. If you'll allow me just one more sentence, it wasn't to be

24 expected for him to order the commander of the brigade -- issue the

25 commander -- order the brigade commanders of the Drina Corps to come to

Page 11980

1 the meeting.

2 Q. Now, according to your testimony, at the meeting you attended,

3 there was no discussion about the separation of men of military age from

4 their families at Potocari; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. But one thing you do recall is General Mladic either making or

7 receiving a telephone call; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. He talked to someone on the phone.

9 Q. Now, on your way to Bratunac on the evening that you went to this

10 meeting, you passed through Potocari. You told us that. Didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you didn't see any buses in Potocari on the evening that you

13 passed through it, did you?

14 A. Not that I can remember.

15 Q. And the telephone conversation that you heard General Mladic

16 making involved him seeking to procure vehicles for the transport of the

17 population at Potocari, didn't it?

18 A. The only thing I remember from that conversation was that General

19 Mladic insisted with the person he was talking to that his party, his

20 interlocutor, provide fuel, whereas he, or the army, was going to provide

21 vehicles for the transportation.

22 Q. Thank you. The phrase I picked up from your evidence the other

23 day was that General Mladic said he would make sure the buses were there.

24 Is that what you recall?

25 A. Yes, vehicles, buses, and other conveyances.

Page 11981

1 Q. So it was your impression of that conversation that it was an

2 arrangement to commence the transportation of people from Potocari, wasn't

3 it?

4 A. One may arrive at that conclusion. There was mention of the

5 transportation.

6 Q. Was there also mention at this meeting of the fact that Mladic and

7 Momir Nikolic had attended a meeting at the Hotel Fontana the same

8 evening?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Was there mention of the fact that the -- there had been

11 discussion earlier that evening with general -- Colonel Karremans about

12 the provision of buses by the Dutch Battalion?

13 A. I don't remember that either.

14 Q. If we are now able, I'd like to show you a section of video,

15 please, of Potocari. It's V 0004458, 831 to 923, please.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. HAYNES: That's enough for my purposes. Thank you.

18 Q. Now, I'm interested to know how did you drive through Potocari on

19 the 12th of July and not see that?

20 A. I would kindly ask you to read what I stated and to make your own

21 conclusions. I never said that I had never seen people in Potocari.

22 Q. No, but you said you didn't see buses.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

24 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think to be fair to the witness, if

25 my learned friend has some time frame in mind for this piece of footage on

Page 11982

1 the 12th, that might be a little more fair to the witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let's see if the witness has an

3 explanation first, because he may have in mind some time frame himself.

4 If not, I suggest Mr. Haynes --

5 MR. HAYNES: I'm going to move on, anyway.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Let's give him the opportunity now.

7 MR. HAYNES: Certainly.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you've thrown the question at him and I

9 think it's fair enough, especially in light of the objection raised or the

10 remark that he be given the opportunity to explain, give any explanation.

11 Do you have any explanation to give us, Mr. Trivic?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I don't remember that on

13 the 12th, on the way to the meeting, I noticed the buses, but I also said

14 that on the 13th I did see buses, trailer trucks and other conveyances,

15 and I don't know what else I can change in my statement. I said I didn't

16 remember. You can show me a footage and I can say yes, you're right, they

17 were there, but I personally don't remember. I do remember that on the

18 13th, while passing through Srebrenica and Potocari, on my way to my new

19 task, I did see all of that, and after all, I was being driven in a

20 vehicle that was part of that convoy. I couldn't have passed by them.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Will you proceed, Mr. Haynes?

22 MR. HAYNES: Yes.

23 Q. Well, my next question is this: Can you imagine why, on the

24 evening of the 12th of July, if you are correct, General Mladic would have

25 been having a conversation with somebody on the telephone to arrange the

Page 11983

1 commencement of transport from Potocari when it had already been going on

2 all day and he had plenty of buses?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

4 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I'm going to object on a couple of

5 grounds. Number 1, the term "imagine" just is begging for speculation at

6 this point. He's testified both on direct, previously on cross about his

7 recollection of the events and the timing of the events and what he

8 remembers happened. So I think we are beginning to waste time on this

9 issue.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Haynes?

11 MR. HAYNES: I'll put the question another way.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's hear the different question.


14 Q. Given what you know about the conversation you heard, do you not

15 think it's more likely that you heard that conversation on the night of

16 the 11th of July rather than the 12th?

17 A. I cannot make any assessments of that kind. I stand by what I

18 said earlier.

19 Q. If I told you that we have video in this case of a conversation

20 between Colonel Karremans and General Mladic in which they discuss the

21 provision of transport by the United Nations earlier on the evening of the

22 11th, would that not make sense of the conversation you heard?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

24 MR. THAYER: Again, objection, Your Honour. This is just trying

25 it from a different angle. The questions are repetitive and we are not

Page 11984

1 moving the ball along at all.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if you wish to comment, do so, by all means,

3 Mr. Haynes. On the other hand, I think you pressed the matter for already

4 about two or three minutes, and the latest you've heard from the witness

5 is that he stands by what he has stated earlier. So --

6 MR. HAYNES: That's all right.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if you wish to pursue the matter.

8 MR. HAYNES: No, no, no. We'll move on, we'll move on.

9 Q. One of the other things you've told us about the meeting you

10 attended is that there was no information available at this meeting about

11 the whereabouts and the movement of the Muslim column; is that correct?

12 A. I would have to look at what I said. I don't remember any details

13 pertaining to this.

14 Q. Well, I'm asking you now: Was there any information available at

15 the meeting you attended about the whereabouts or the movement of the

16 Muslim column?

17 A. I believe that during the first day of my stay here, I said a few

18 things about this, and that is that each meeting usually begins with the

19 information about what's going on in the combat area, but I myself didn't

20 note this information down, nor did I memorise any specifics. It would

21 have been normal procedure for the superior officer to brief those in

22 attendance about the current events and developments in the area.

23 Q. It's a simple enough question, Mr. Trivic. I'm going to ask it

24 one more time. At the meeting you attended, was there any information

25 about the whereabouts or the movement of the Muslim column?

Page 11985

1 A. I can only make an assessment, and on the basis of this assessment

2 an order was produced to units to undertake security measures in their

3 respective areas, security measures for roads alongside with members of

4 the Ministry of the Interior, MUP. Based on that, the assessment was that

5 the units were to move towards Tuzla, towards the forces of the BH army.

6 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you be shown a few documents now, then.

7 Could P1100 be put into e-court? And I think the best copy for the

8 witness to look at is probably D.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to be -- I'm trying to be quick on this, no

12 broadcast for the time being of this document. The point to be made is

13 that I am informed that this is a document which, to our knowledge, is for

14 the time being under seal. You can of course make reference to it, but we

15 are not to show it to the public. And if you're going to mention any

16 particular names from that document, please consult with us in private

17 session before you do so, so that we decide if to proceed in private

18 session then or in public session.

19 MR. HAYNES: Well, I think it's sufficient for my purposes that

20 the document is simply not broadcast. There are no names in it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I haven't seen it, so...

22 MR. HAYNES: That's not the same document. Can we try 1101? I

23 appear to have a different document.

24 THE REGISTRAR: There is no 1101.

25 MR. HAYNES: Well, can we go to 1103, then, please?

Page 11986

1 THE REGISTRAR: D as well?

2 MR. HAYNES: Yes. A is the English and D would be the best copy

3 for the witness.

4 Q. Now, just so you understand this, Mr. Trivic, this is a record of

5 an intercepted conversation between two members of the army of Republika

6 Srpska, and according to this, one of them is in fact a general, and it

7 takes -- it took place at 7.48 in the morning of the 12th of July. And

8 can you see it begins, "Hello, yes, general, I spoke with Mane." And if

9 you read down, you'll see it refers halfway down to, "You've probably been

10 informed a big column of Turks has started to arrive in Raince.

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was any information of that sort made available at the meeting you

14 went to?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Well, wasn't Colonel Pandurevic in particular concerned about

17 information as to where the 28th Division might have gone at this meeting?

18 A. I presume he was. In order to reach the area of Kladanj and Tuzla

19 from the Srebrenica area, one had to go across the area of defence of the

20 Zvornik Brigade.

21 Q. But no information was available as to where they were; is that

22 right?

23 A. I said that I can't remember.

24 Q. Well, I'm just going to try it a couple more of these. Can we go

25 back to 1100 A, please?

Page 11987

1 Now, this is another intercepted communication which took place at

2 6.56 in the morning of the 12th of July. And you can see it's between

3 again two members of the army of Republika Srpska and they are saying to

4 another,"Hello, yes, they are moving in groups of 100 from Jaglici over

5 there between me and the Milici men. They are moving over here towards

6 Bokcin and Potok so they'll probably go down there towards Kamenica and

7 Pobudje. Since there's an inhabited Serb village at the Milici, the only

8 possibility they have is to go down towards Kamenica. We've been

9 following that column, or rather several of those columns, since 3.00 this

10 morning."

11 Now, at the meeting you attended, was there any information that

12 the column was being monitored by anybody?

13 A. If I say that I don't remember any details, and if it in no way

14 affected the area covered by the 2nd Romanija Brigade, then the reason why

15 this did not stick in my memory is not that this may not have been

16 mentioned but, rather, that I simply don't remember. At any rate, the

17 commanders of the units who were tasked with securing roads and who were

18 to apply heightened measures of combat readiness on their positions were

19 supposed to be wary of surprise attacks, which were expected to come from

20 the forces of the 28th Division who were supposed to link up with their

21 units. This means that some concern was present but not on my part, and I

22 did not pay particular attention to it.

23 Q. Can we look at one more, 1106 A, please? Again, D would be the

24 best copy for the witness. Is the document in front of you, Mr. Trivic?

25 A. I see it in the English language.

Page 11988

1 Q. I think it's now before you in your language.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: This too is protected. So no broadcast, please.


4 Q. You here see that this is a conversation between the duty officer

5 at Badem, that's the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, and Zlatar, that's the

6 Drina Corps command, and here, one of the co-locutors, as we call them,

7 says, "They are moving up towards Konjevic Polje and Kosat. We have

8 information it's exactly like that. What action did you take, for God's

9 sake? Listen, General Krstic is here."

10 Now, did General Krstic mention at the meeting that were you at

11 anything about where this column was and where it was going?

12 A. No, I don't remember.

13 Q. Just one more, P112 A -- 1121 A -- sorry -- and C would be the

14 best copy for the witness this time. Is it in front of you in your

15 language, Mr. Trivic?

16 A. Yes. I can see it.

17 Q. Does the name Obrenovic mean anything to you?

18 A. There were two men I knew by the name of Obrenovic. This was --

19 there was one who was the commander of Bratunac Brigade and the other was

20 the Chief of Staff of the Zvornik Brigade.

21 Q. Well, whoever it was, did the meeting you attended receive any

22 information that Obrenovic had captured a Turk?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Or that the column was moving towards Lolici?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 11989

1 Q. One last thing, Mr. Trivic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

3 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether it is important, but I'm not

4 sure whether the witness has seen that part of the entire --

5 MR. HAYNES: It's been drawn to my attention is that this

6 intercept is at the bottom of the page, it's the one at 1640, so it

7 perhaps ought to be wound down so he has the chance to briefly look at it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He can see it now, definitely.


10 Q. Just this last thing on this topic, Mr. Trivic: Do you think it

11 is remotely conceivable that a meeting held on the evening of the 12th of

12 July would not have received all this detailed information about the

13 movement of the Muslim column?

14 A. Again, I will give you the same answer. If at this meeting the

15 units were ordered to secure roads, then at the beginning of the meeting,

16 information must have been given to the effect that the forces of the 28th

17 Division were heading toward the Tuzla canton, not a canton at the time,

18 but at any rate that they were going toward their own units, leaving this

19 area, and that it was certain that they would pass through the areas of

20 defence of certain brigades on their way. In accordance with that, the

21 assignments of the units was to secure these roads in order that the units

22 which were supposed to be reassigned and redeployed to other areas can do

23 so safely and securely. I do not recall any specific mention of this at

24 the meeting. These matters may have been discussed but I do not remember

25 that.

Page 11990

1 Q. Now, the day after this meeting, you had lunch at the command of

2 the Bratunac Brigade; that's right, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you told us on the 21st, that's two days ago, that you left

5 the command of the Bratunac Brigade at about 5.00 or 1700 hours; is that

6 right?

7 A. I left at around 5.00, I think I said, which made it possible for

8 me to be in the area where my unit was assigned to by 6.00. We were

9 supposed to deploy there and take up positions for the new mission.

10 Q. Well, it may not be important, but I thought you said the other

11 day that it made it possible for you to return to your unit by 7.00, but

12 there it is.

13 What time did you pass through Potocari on your way from Bratunac

14 on the day after this meeting?

15 A. I don't understand the question.

16 Q. Well, when you left Bratunac at 5.00, you headed towards your

17 unit, and the other day you told us that you passed through Potocari for

18 the last time. I'm asking you what time you passed through Potocari, if

19 you left Bratunac at 5.00.

20 A. Evidently you misunderstood me. You didn't put the question

21 properly.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, wait, wait. Mr. Thayer?

23 MR. THAYER: Respectfully, Your Honour, I think there is a mistake

24 of fact embedded in the question that may be confusing the witness

25 concerning where he was when.

Page 11991

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I think the witness was about to explain it, if

2 you are correct.

3 Go ahead, Mr. Trivic. You had just started telling Mr. Haynes

4 that he evidently had misunderstood you. Can you explain why, please?

5 And then we see whether it's the case of proceeding with the question or

6 having it rephrased.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Haynes tied up

8 two different events. One part of his question has to do with my

9 departure from the meeting and then the other part of the question has to

10 do with my new mission and my going through Potocari on my way there.


12 Q. Well, let's just get this clear. It's probably my fault,

13 Mr. Trivic. You left Bratunac on the -- what you say was the 13th of July

14 at 5.00 in the afternoon; is that right?

15 A. Let me be specific. I will give you the specific route I took.

16 From the Jasenova command post, I set out to issue assignments to my unit

17 to march along the road that was approved and to reach the area of Krivaca

18 by 1900 hours. Next, I set out with my vehicle, belonging to the command,

19 across Srebrenica and Potocari. I dropped by the Bratunac Brigade command

20 in passing, had lunch there, and reached the area of Krivaca at 1900

21 hours.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, all I'm asking you is to tell me what time it was

23 you passed through Potocari for the last time that day.

24 A. On that day I passed through Potocari only once, after I had

25 issued assignments to my unit, I don't know the exact time, around 1600

Page 11992

1 hours.

2 Q. Forgive me, but I understood you to have said the other day that

3 when you had finished your lunch in Bratunac, you went back through

4 Potocari. Is that not correct?

5 A. No, it's not, sir.

6 Q. But in any event, when you went through Potocari on the afternoon

7 of the 13th of July, as you believe it to have been, you saw a lot of

8 people and a lot of buses and people getting on to buses; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. I stated that several times, not only buses but also trailer

10 trucks, lorries, even smaller ones without tarpaulin.

11 Q. And many, many thousands of people?

12 A. I can't speculate. At any rate, large numbers of people.

13 Q. Well, please help me. Would you have said thousands?

14 A. Quite possibly even more, several thousand.

15 Q. Thank you very much. You see, would it interest you to know that

16 the evidence we've heard from Dutch soldiers is that the transportation of

17 people from Potocari finished at about 5.00 on the afternoon of the 13th

18 of July? I'll ask you again do you not think that your whole notes on

19 this event are one day out and in fact what you described is passing

20 through Potocari on the 12th?

21 A. Sir, on the 13th, I was marching along Jasenova, Srebrenica,

22 Potocari, Bratunac, Konjevic Polje, Han Pijesak, Krivaca route. Along

23 that route, independently of the meeting, along that route on the 13th,

24 when the unit was redeployed, and as I came to the new area, I saw what I

25 stated, both to you and to the Prosecutor.

Page 11993

1 Q. And was what you saw a scene like you watched in that video just

2 now, of people being loaded on to buses?

3 A. I saw people being loaded on the buses, and I travelled together

4 with the convoy of trailer trucks, buses and conveyances holding people.

5 There were more people still in Potocari. I do not rule out the

6 possibility that people were being loaded on the 12th as well. I never

7 ruled that possibility out. I only said when it was that I observed

8 that. On the evening of the 12th, I returned, or rather, in the

9 afternoon, I returned after I had transported those two grandmothers.

10 Upon my return, I took a grandfather, or rather, not I but a

11 driver of mine, he was found in an abandoned camp where the members of the

12 28th Division must have been staying. As my unit approached that area,

13 those forces retreated, leaving that grandfather behind. The grandfather

14 was asking, pleading with us, to kill him because he had been abandoned by

15 his sons. I ordered the driver to take him over to Potocari. On the

16 12th, on my way to the meeting, I gave a lift to two grandmothers. On the

17 13th, I saw what I said I saw.

18 But I do not rule out the possibility that on the 12th, people

19 were being loaded on to vehicles. I said that I heard General Mladic

20 speaking to someone about fuel on the 12th. This conversation need not

21 necessarily mean that there were insufficient vehicles. I don't recall

22 the details of the conversation. On the basis of what I observed and on

23 the basis of the notes I made, that is what I believe. I don't believe

24 that I was off the mark in my notes that much. I believe that I noted the

25 events of the 13th correctly and that this indeed happened on that date

Page 11994

1 that I went through Potocari on my way to that new area of deployment.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. HAYNES: I believe I've concluded my cross-examination, but

4 I'd just like to consult with my client before formally closing it but

5 those are all the questions I've got for the moment.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We can have the break now. It will be of 20

7 minutes, 25 minutes duration, and after that you will tell us whether you

8 have concluded or not.

9 Is someone else going to cross-examine this witness further?

10 Okay. All right. Okay. So 25 minutes break starting from now. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, since we were given the indication that we

13 were going to have one hour and a half and that would cover the totality

14 of the cross-examinations and it doesn't seem to be so now, please sit

15 down again during the break and see what's going to happen. We would like

16 to know how long you expect to be cross-examining the witness, because you

17 had anticipated two and a half hours for the next witness plus maybe the

18 rest of the time for his cross-examination but, anyway...

19 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we continue with the cross-examinations, can

22 someone enlighten us on what's going to happen? Let's start from here.

23 We have Popovic team is going to cross-examine. How much time do you

24 need?

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 20 minutes, Your Honour.

Page 11995

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 20 minutes.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek?

4 MR. MEEK: Less than that, Your Honours. Maybe two questions,

5 three questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Less than that? Ten minutes, what?

7 MR. MEEK: At the most, Your Honour, I believe.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Nikolic?

9 MR. BOURGON: Five minutes, maximum ten, Mr. President, thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Borovcanin?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't believe there will be any

12 cross-examination from our side.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Miletic? She's not ready. Miletic? Madam

14 Fauveau. She's done. You're done, yes. And Gvero is done and Pandurevic

15 is done, so we've got another maybe --

16 MR. HAYNES: Sadly, no. I've got three questions.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I thought you --

18 MR. HAYNES: No, no. I was just --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no.

20 MR. HAYNES: I just checked that I hadn't missed anything.

21 JUDGE HAYNES: -- with your client, yes, you are 100 per cent

22 right. So let's continue, Mr. Haynes.


24 Q. Near the end, Mr. Trivic.

25 We've seen a little bit of video footage of you and General Mladic

Page 11996

1 and other officers in Srebrenica town centre on the 11th of July. You

2 recall watching that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And in that footage, we saw that General Mladic was very keen that

5 everybody should go on to Potocari. You recall, I imagine, him saying

6 that at the time?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall whether anybody tried to dissuade him from that

9 particular idea?

10 A. I remember that as well.

11 Q. And do you remember who that was?

12 A. No, I don't remember the person, but I know that somebody said

13 that it wouldn't be a good idea to proceed further with the units in that

14 direction.

15 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at just a little bit of videotape

16 now, please, if you would, and see if that reminds you.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. HAYNES: Can we stop the tape there? Thank you.

19 Q. Does that remind you as to who it was that tried to dissuade

20 General Mladic from going on to Potocari?

21 A. I think this was Pandurevic.

22 Q. And are you aware whether, in accordance with what he said to

23 General Mladic, in fact the units of Pandurevic were then employed trying

24 to secure the hills?

25 A. Yes. After this intervention or warning, all units proceeded to

Page 11997

1 carry out their tasks even in the morning.

2 Q. And did those units include the units of the Drina Wolves

3 commanded by Legenda or Major Jolovic?

4 A. They were part of the Zvornik Brigade.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Mr. Zivanovic?

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

9 Q. Good afternoon.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. Mr. Trivic, I first wanted to ask you to give me an answer to what

12 you already responded to last -- about Zepa. We have information that

13 elements of --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the question?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think all the elements, but those

16 who did not withdraw from the area were at Koliba, Zepska Koliba, and they

17 were engaged in the actions in order to verify the --

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I heard the interpreters asking me to repeat the question but you

20 basically answered it. Therefore my question was whether you can confirm

21 the information that part of the Zepa brigade, in organised manner,

22 withdrew by swimming across the Drina and that other parts also went in

23 the direction of Kladanj in an organised manner.

24 A. Yes. This is the information that was circulated at the time.

25 Along with these forces that were pulling out towards Kladanj and securing

Page 11998

1 the units on retreat, my unit was engaged in combat.

2 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you one more thing in relation to the

3 meeting at the Bratunac Brigade HQ that you attended to. We heard claims

4 that at a meeting in the Bratunac Brigade, a decision was made that the

5 VRS was to kill all men of military age moving in the column, both those

6 who surrender and also those who wanted to proceed towards the free

7 territory. Do you know anything about this, whether this was ever

8 mentioned at this meeting?

9 A. No.

10 Q. The third thing I wanted to ask you about refers to your notes.

11 Can you tell me, did you keep those notes on a day-to-day basis and did

12 you update them regularly about the events that happened on that day or

13 did you take those notes occasionally after a couple of days and then

14 recorded everything at a later stage?

15 A. Everything depended on the time in the evening when I would return

16 back, where part of the command was deployed. I didn't keep notes every

17 evening. That's for sure. But I am certain that I didn't write about the

18 events in Srebrenica in Zepa because these notes show that on the 13th, I

19 gave tasks according to the schedule and the notes referring to the 12th

20 were made on the 13th at the latest when I was drafting the tasks for the

21 units that were supposed to move away from that area to a new area and my

22 notes show the tasks that I was giving to particular officers.

23 Q. Now, speaking about the tasks for the 11th, was that noted down on

24 the 13th or maybe later or maybe before that?

25 A. The tasks for the 12th -- for the 11th and the 12th, after being

Page 11999

1 issued in the area around the repeater, were noted down at the time when

2 they were issued.

3 Q. Now, please, can you take a look at your notebook? It's 2D123,

4 and pages 06085836, English version 1235. No, I'm sorry, 0605846. That's

5 the 11th of July. 06085846. I can see that it's 2D123. Can we please

6 then have the English version put up? And if necessary, we can have it on

7 the ELMO as well.

8 Can you please look at the 11th of July, second bullet, at 0950

9 hours, the commander of the Drina Corps, Major General Krstic issued

10 tasks. Can you see that?

11 A. Yes, I can.

12 Q. According to the information that I have, the commander of the

13 Drina Corps, the commander of the Drina Corps on the 11th of July was not

14 Major General Krstic. Would you agree with me?

15 A. As far as I know, he wasn't, but I do allow for the possibility

16 that this, of course, referred to the commander of the operation.

17 Q. It says very clearly here at 0950 hours --

18 A. No. It's 0000 hours.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 0900 hours,

20 correction.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. There is an abbreviation, TT, and that means commander, and DK

23 means Drina Corps; am I right?

24 A. Yes, you're absolutely right in interpreting what is written here.

25 Q. I'm asking you for a different reason. According to our

Page 12000

1 information, General Krstic became the Drina Corps commander somewhat

2 later. I'm asking you is it possible that at the time when General Krstic

3 became the Drina Corps commander, wrote this down?

4 A. No. It might have been a lapse in terms of thinking about the

5 operation and the role, but it certainly wasn't written later on. I

6 wouldn't have been able to compile all this information at a later stage.

7 That was mentioned at the time when the axis and the combat areas were

8 determined.

9 Q. You mean your memory is not good enough for you to remember at a

10 later stage?

11 A. Of course. That's what I mean.

12 Q. You spoke in detail today and yesterday about the events that took

13 place 12 years ago. If you couldn't remember such information only a few

14 days later, how reliable will you say that your memory is about the events

15 that took place 12 years ago?

16 A. Can you please accept this explanation that I gave you, and that

17 this was written on the day when the tasks were given. Due to an error on

18 my part, I admit, I didn't even know that there was an order to appoint a

19 commander of the corps before the lunch was organised, and definitely with

20 regard to the command tasks, this remained written as it is.

21 Q. By the way, I noticed that in no other document you never referred

22 to General Krstic either as a commander of the corps or the commander of

23 the operation.

24 A. That's correct. That was just an accident or mistake.

25 Q. One more thing: This refers to your trip to Krivaca on the 13th

Page 12001

1 of July, 1995. You passed by a football stadium in Nova Kasaba. That's

2 what you said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you pass in a car? What kind of car were you driving in?

5 A. I -- that was a PUCH. It's a jeep.

6 Q. Was there a driver with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there anyone else with you?

9 A. I believe there was a Miss or a Mrs. from the organ for the moral

10 guidance that was one of the departments in the command, and I think there

11 was also a communications officer with us.

12 Q. Did you stop there or did you just pass by this football

13 playground?

14 A. I had to stop in the area two or three times but I didn't alight

15 from the vehicle. There were many curious people including reporters and

16 camera crews, but I didn't get out of the vehicle because of the crowd and

17 the jams on the road, it wasn't easy to go through.

18 Q. So that was on the road where the playground was?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. We have seen this playground so we know exactly where the road is

21 and where the playground is. I'm not particularly clear about a sentence

22 that you mentioned. You didn't mention the specific number of people, but

23 I am not clear about the assessment that you made in response to the

24 request made by the Prosecution. I think you're not expected to give any

25 estimates. You should rather speak about only what you saw or heard.

Page 12002

1 As you said, there were about two people in a square metre to be

2 multiplied by 100 and then again by 100. I didn't particularly understand

3 how you made this calculation and what you exactly wanted to say.

4 A. I didn't say anything. I didn't make any calculations to this

5 date as to how many people it could have involved.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, and you said that they were guarded

7 by some soldiers that some of them were in black uniforms and there were

8 young soldiers?

9 A. I didn't mention any black uniforms.

10 Q. I'm sorry. I got it mixed up. So you mentioned some recruits or

11 drafted young men who were just arrived.

12 A. I was talking about military policemen who were in the area at the

13 time and one could conclude that they were securing the area. They were

14 young and anyway, this battalion of the 65th protective regiment received

15 new conscripts for training and on the basis of that, I concluded that

16 they were members of that battalion.

17 Q. One more question. Were you able to estimate how many soldiers

18 were securing or guarding these detainees on the playground?

19 A. First of all, I'd like to say that, in my view, these men were

20 disarmed enemy forces. They were not detainees. That's the first thing.

21 Secondly, there were not too many of them since they were all sitting on

22 the ground and they didn't pose any danger. I don't know how many

23 soldiers were there. It was up to the commander to assess the number

24 needed. Anyway, there were soldiers around the playground.

25 Q. One more question. Since you were sitting in the car and these

Page 12003

1 people were sitting on the ground, I conclude that you didn't have the

2 best view of the playground, given that you were probably -- obviously on

3 the same level with them. Can you confirm that?

4 A. Yeah. One may conclude that.

5 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Who wishes to go

7 next? Mr. Meek?

8 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic, for sticking to your

10 estimated time schedule.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:

12 Q. Good afternoon.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Sir, I'd like to just have you confirm several -- a couple things

15 for me. Do you recall on October 5th, 2000, you gave a statement to the

16 Tribunal, to the OTP investigator, and attorneys at the UN headquarters in

17 Banja Luka? Do you recall that, sir, your first interview?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And during that interview, you were actually introduced to and

20 questioned by Richard Butler. Do you recall Richard Butler, some military

21 analyst that worked for the Office of the Prosecutor?

22 A. Yes. I remember the interview. I don't remember his face. He

23 was introduced to me, and during the proofing session just now, I was

24 reminded of the fact that it was Mr. Butler.

25 Q. Thank you. And briefly, do you recall that he asked you whether

Page 12004

1 or not you knew Colonel Ljubisa Beara and you answered, "Yes, I know"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you further told him at the time that you did not see Colonel

4 Beara in Potocari or Srebrenica area or any time following that in Zepa.

5 I just want you to confirm that, sir.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, also, I'd like you to confirm that on the 24th day of

8 January, 2004, you had another interview, this time with the

9 representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor, being Mr. Peter

10 McCloskey, who is here in the courtroom today, and a Ken Corlett from the

11 Office of the Prosecutor. Do you recall that interview, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Now, and I want to ask you do you recall this question

14 being put to you by Mr. McCloskey, and it went like this? Mr. McCloskey

15 asked you, sir, he said, "And not anywhere in the VRS does the security

16 officer tell the brigade commander what to do, does he?" Do you remember

17 him asking you that?

18 A. I would have to look at the transcript.

19 Q. He further asked you, "or" meaning the security officer of the

20 VRS, "Or do things behind his back," meaning the brigade commander's

21 back. For the record, it's 2D122. In English it would be page 51, and

22 the B/C/S -- and there's no line numbers on this, Your Honours. And the

23 B/C/S, I really don't know what it is, what page it would be in B/C/S.

24 Does that refresh your recollection at all about being asked that

25 question?

Page 12005

1 A. No, no, no, it doesn't.

2 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you about your diary very briefly, to clarify

3 one matter, that would be 2D125, English would be page 5, and B/C/S, I'm

4 not sure. It's from the 900 hours, 12 July, 1995 is where it starts. And

5 you make a notation that -- you're talking about Krstic, said, "You go

6 ahead." You make a notation, "You want someone else to do your job. I

7 replied to him that he is not of a strong principle to everyone (as he

8 portrays himself) as he is towards me." Then you have written down, in

9 all caps, "I am really clumsy commander." Do you recall that, sir?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And isn't it true, sir, that what you meant by that, being a

12 clumsy commander, was -- and you actually have it written down, I think,

13 the meaning is it's better to keep quiet or even to give false reports

14 than to be a fair player in a game where human life is at stake.

15 Do you recall that, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You went on to state in your diary right after that, you made a

18 notation that, "That's how you build a military career. However, I cannot

19 do that." Do you recall that, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MEEK: Thank you very much. I have no further questions, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Who is next? Mr. Bourgon? For the

24 record, Ms. Nikolic, who wasn't here during part of the first session, is

25 present now. Thank you.

Page 12006

1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

3 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I have a few questions for you and

4 specifically to one area, something which you mentioned yesterday, and I'm

5 quoting from page 65 of the transcript yesterday on lines 13 and 14. And

6 you said at that moment, "If my superior were to come to the brigade

7 command, he would first approach the brigade commander if he's there."

8 Do you recall saying that yesterday?

9 A. If my superior was coming, yes.

10 Q. And further down on the same page, lines 18 to 20, you

11 stated, "In any event, if any organ comes from a superior command, the

12 brigade commander would be informed of this officer's coming to the

13 command. That's a rule." Do you recall saying that yesterday?

14 A. Yes. In the sense that he would be informed either by the

15 superior command or by the organs who were to receive that particular

16 person in the brigade command.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. That was exactly the point I wanted to clarify

18 with you. So either the officer visiting would inform the brigade

19 commander, as is the custom, or your own assistant commander from your

20 brigade, the person being visited, would inform you as brigade commander.

21 Would that be correct?

22 A. Yes. If it is not possible to get in touch, the rule is to inform

23 the commander after having had that meeting with somebody from the

24 superior command. At any rate, the brigade commander has to be informed

25 of that.

Page 12007

1 Q. And, of course, this rule, which you mentioned, there is a reason

2 for this, and would I be right in saying that this is because as commander

3 of the brigade, you want to be informed of everything that goes on in your

4 brigade? Is that correct?

5 A. By all means, yes.

6 Q. And of course, this applies in your absence to your Chief of

7 Staff, he wants to know everything that's going on while you're away

8 because he's standing in for you; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Now, I'd also like to confirm that no -- an assistant commander

11 from a superior command could not issue an order to you as brigade

12 commander. Would that be right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. And, in fact, the only person that can issue an order to you is

15 your superior commander, as brigade commander, I'm talking about?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And once again this applies -- the same applies to your Chief of

18 Staff standing in, in your absence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And lastly, if there was, to take an example, I suggest to you

21 this also applies to your own assistant commanders whereby for example if

22 the assistant commander for logistics coming from the corps was visiting

23 your own assistant commander for logistics in the brigade, he could not

24 issue an order to him; is that correct?

25 A. No, or he can ask that a certain assignment be performed, but the

Page 12008

1 other person is required to tell him that he has to consult with his

2 commander because he cannot engage units from the logistics support

3 without the brigade commander knowing of it.

4 Q. Again, this applies once again to your Chief of Staff in your

5 absence?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thanks very much. I have no further questions. Thank you.

8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Nikolic. I take it therefore that there is no one

10 else wishing to cross-examine this witness, correct?

11 Do you have a re-examination? I would imagine you have.

12 MR. THAYER: I do.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. How long is it going to last?

14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'll do my best to keep it at about

15 half an hour. It may be longer. I will try to keep it at half an hour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you decided what's going to happen with the

17 next witness? Because -- yes, Mr. McCloskey? Because it's now quarter to

18 5.00. Half an hour, and that's being optimistic with you, having taken

19 three times as much, if not four times as much with your

20 examination-in-chief, it's very optimistic. So we finish this witness at

21 5.15. We have half an hour left and then three-quarters of an hour.

22 That's one hour 15 minutes, which is short of the 2 hours and a

23 half that at least they have indicated will be needed for the

24 examination-in-chief with the next witness. That would mean if we are

25 going to survive with him, you would have to cut down your

Page 12009

1 cross-examination, but I will not impose it. He's an expert witness, and

2 I will not impose anything on anyone. Yes?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we have been -- I've spoken --

4 Mr. Vanderpuye will be doing the cross-examination of the expert. He is

5 hoping, it's hard to say in this vacuum having not seen anything, he's

6 hoping to be able to do it in two hours or less. So there is a chance we

7 can finish. But if we cannot, I think this witness should be treated like

8 any other witness and be required to come back on Tuesday and I don't see

9 any other way around it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is, Mr. McCloskey, sorry to interrupt you

11 like this, but at least to my knowledge, we were informed earlier on this

12 week that he may face problems with his employers. He's going to be away

13 on field trip for the duration of three months. That's the information

14 that we have, at least. So I don't want to create problems to witnesses.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: These are problem that has to be solved and I don't

17 think he will be able to go back Sunday and obtain a visa Monday and

18 return on Tuesday.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have tried to work out these issues with

20 Defence counsel, and my -- and we have also heard that the visa problems

21 had been resolved.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. If that is the case, let's

23 proceed.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, as I think Mr. Thayer had said, many times

25 these -- once the Court -- or the Prosecution gets involved with

Page 12010

1 employers, these employer problems aren't as bad as we thought. I think

2 we need to really get to the witness --


4 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- to ask him how serious that is.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed and then we see. All right.

6 Mr. Thayer.

7 MR. THAYER: Thank you again, Mr. President. Good afternoon to

8 Your Honours, good afternoon, everyone.

9 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Sir, you testified yesterday, and this was at page 72, line 1,

13 that in your opinion, Krivaja 95 was hurriedly planned. Are you aware of

14 an earlier operation in May of 1995 to close the enclaves?

15 A. Are you referring to the command of the Drina Corps and the

16 activities performed by the Drina Corps?

17 Q. I am, sir. Does that ring a bell?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. May we have 65 ter 204 on e-court, please? Sir, do you

20 have the image in front of you? Take a moment and read it, please, and

21 when you're ready to have it scrolled up a little further, just say so.

22 A. We can move on. Further down, please.

23 Q. A little bit more. I don't think there is much left, sir. I

24 think that's it for that page.

25 A. Further down. Further down. Further down. Down still.

Page 12011

1 Q. That would be the next page, please. Is this ringing any bells,

2 sir? Is it jogging your memory at all so far?

3 A. For the time being, no.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Except -- or, rather, it doesn't jog my memory because it does not

6 relate to my unit.

7 Q. I was just going to try to move it along just a little bit. If we

8 go to the page 3 of -- a little further down, to number 6, I think you'll

9 see the reference to your unit, sir.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then if we can go to the last page of the document, page 4.

12 JUDGE KWON: I think I read his brigade name in -- on the first

13 page as well.

14 MR. THAYER: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour, thank you.

15 Q. And do you see the signatory on this order, sir?

16 A. Deputy commander, Colonel Radislav Krstic.

17 Q. Okay. The -- on the first page that you read the heading

18 was, "Order to stabilise defence around Zepa and Srebrenica enclaves and

19 establish conditions for the liberation of the enclaves." And as His

20 Honour just pointed out, it was addressed to a number of the brigade

21 commands, including your own. Do you have any recollection of this order

22 being issued?

23 A. I'm sure that it reached the brigade command.

24 Q. But as to your recollection, do you have any recollection of this,

25 this particular order for this particular operation in May of 1995?

Page 12012

1 A. I don't recall the activities because the brigade had a task,

2 which is referred to here, but I don't think this operation was planned

3 much ahead. It must have been provoked by something that served as a

4 basis for Colonel Krstic to take measures to take action with the forces

5 holding positions facing the enclaves, forces of a smaller scale.

6 Q. Let's look at 65 ter 205, please. And this is just a one-page

7 document. Can you see that it's addressed, among others, to your unit and

8 again signed by Colonel Krstic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you see the section, sir, that starts, "In relation to the

11 order issued by the Drina Corps command, strictly confidential number

12 04/112"? And if you can just read the section that's --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Read the section beneath that, if you can read that out, please,

15 and maybe that will help refresh your recollection.

16 A. "Due to a lack of insufficient -- of sufficient manpower" is that

17 the paragraph you want me to read out?

18 Q. Please.

19 A. "Due to a lack of sufficient manpower, to fully close the enclaves

20 of Zepa and Srebrenica and create conditions for the liberation of the

21 enclaves, the foregoing order is supplemented and modified or rather

22 amended as follows." Should I read on?

23 Q. If you would just read paragraph 2, please.

24 A. Number 2, item 2?

25 Q. Yes, item 2, please, sir.

Page 12013

1 A. "First Milici Brigade and Vlasenica Brigade with a MUP unit will

2 continue conducting reconnaissance and sweeping the terrain along the

3 planned axis of engagement in accordance with the idea of the commanders

4 of the 1st Milici and the 1st Vlasenica brigades with the coordination of

5 the command of the Drina Corps with a view to fully gaining insight into

6 enemy forces and their disposition in the gap between Zepa and Srebrenica

7 and between Radava and Zelenica and Lisina. The Independent Battalion of

8 Skelani will continue controlling the territory."

9 Q. That's fine, sir. Having read that paragraph as well, does that

10 jog your memory at all as to this operation from the Drina Corps, this

11 order that we talked about a moment ago?

12 A. These documents or measures taken by the deputy commander, and it

13 is quite possible that the corps commander was absent at the time and he

14 therefore discharged this role, these documents testify to regular

15 activities because the Drina Corps considered this activity to be a

16 regular activity which involved taking some measures. Since most of the

17 forces of the Drina Corps were engaged in their positions opposite the

18 enclaves, or were tied up with the enclaves, it often time happened that

19 out of the area of these protected zones, sabotage actions were launched.

20 It was a daily obligation to monitor the situation, collect intelligence,

21 and prepare for active combat operations, regardless --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. You can stop there. Mr. Zivanovic?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am under the

24 impression that this is a new examination-in-chief, rather than a

25 follow-up on the cross-examination. I may be mistaken but some new

Page 12014

1 matters were raised here like, for instance the month of May of 1995.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let Mr. Thayer respond to that. Mr. Thayer?

3 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I think we heard this testimony

4 yesterday that Krivaja 95 was planned on very short notice, that there was

5 insufficient intelligence concerning the locations and the axes, and I'm

6 simply trying to find out whether the witness has any familiarity,

7 recollection of another operation just a couple weeks prior in which some

8 of these same areas are involved.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You can stop there. You can stop there.

10 Yes, Madam Fauveau?

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the Prosecutor

12 refrain from using the term "operation," which has a specific meaning

13 within the doctrine of the army of Republika Srpska? I'm certain that in

14 time it will crop up that this is a very important matter. I appeal to

15 him to use the term "actions" or any other terms but for the

16 term "operation."

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Thayer? I think

18 this has come up previously, although I don't remember it being

19 determined. Do you wish to comment on it?

20 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, number 1, there are references --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it make any difference to you for the time

22 being to refer to action rather than operation?

23 MR. THAYER: Well, I'm simply using words that are used in the

24 language of the document itself. So if the witness wishes to correct me

25 on that in this particular instance I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't

Page 12015

1 think we've been using the word "operation" loosely during this trial.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau, I'm letting the witness follow

3 this --

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] During the proceedings, Your Honour,

5 although -- I'm sorry, but in the version in B/C/S, there is no mention of

6 the word "operation" and it's the same word in English as well.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know which word it would be in B/C/S, so I

8 can't help you there. Anyway, let's not waste time on this issue. I

9 mean, there is a divide between you on the use of this word. Please take

10 it that whenever he's using "operation" it means "action." All right. Go

11 ahead.

12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Sir, I'm not sure you actually reached your answer but can you

14 just tell us yes or no whether these documents refresh your recollection

15 as to what was contained in this order and in the supplemental order that

16 I showed you? If not, that's fine, and I'll just move on to my next

17 question.

18 A. I just wanted to finish my sentence. Both documents, the order

19 and the information linked to the previous document, reflects regular

20 activities that the corps command is obliged to undertake. It is evident

21 from the subheading or -- and the heading of the document, it has to do

22 with stabilising the defence in the whole area facing the enclaves, and it

23 also refers to the tasks thought about on a daily basis in order how to

24 separate these forces by one's own actions. One should understand that

25 throughout the period, there was contemplation of the need for this part

Page 12016

1 of the encircled population in the enclave of how to liberate or how to

2 demilitarise this.

3 Since this was not done in compliance with the 1993 resolution of

4 the Security Council and that constant losses were being sustained, it was

5 only natural to think about the possibility of demilitarisation. This is

6 my view. In other words, it doesn't involve any operation. It is merely

7 a warning to the units that they -- that defence deserve more attention in

8 this area and that they should, with their action, impart on the 28th

9 Division that they are not going to wait.

10 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever receive information or did you ever

11 become aware that just a couple of weeks after these two orders, the VRS

12 attacked and captured the UNPROFOR observation post Echo located near

13 Zeleni Jadar on June 3rd, 1995?

14 A. Concerning this activity, I have no recollection. There may have

15 been information to that effect but I don't remember.

16 Q. That's fine. And having spent some of the time that you did in

17 the operation at Srebrenica, did you have any understanding of the

18 importance of securing that communication that ran south, just south of

19 the enclave near Zeleni Jadar which the VRS was able to do when they took

20 over that observation post?

21 A. I don't know any details about that. My unit was not connected

22 with this. I didn't receive tasks of that kind. I don't know.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. You were asked some questions by my

24 learned friend Ms. Fauveau yesterday about whether you'd seen a map with

25 certain unit positions and movements drawn on it, and you answered that

Page 12017

1 you believe that you did recall seeing it. And that was at page 37, line

2 1.

3 If we may have 65 ter 1499 displayed, this is going to take a

4 couple of minutes, probably, because it's a very detailed map and frankly

5 I don't know if it's going to show up well enough, but I have a full-size

6 copy here, with Madam Usher's assistance. Okay. And if we may have the

7 top half of the map blown up, if we could zoom in on that, please?

8 Okay. You see the image there, sir? And if it also helps you, if

9 you want to un -- apologies to Madam Usher, but if you want to unfold the

10 map to take a look at it in its entirety, please feel free to do so

11 because I think the image on the screen is pretty good, but if you would

12 unfold it and feel free to look at the bottom half, too.

13 Now, on the portion that's on the screen right now, and I think

14 you're looking at the same portion that's on the ELMO there, but the top

15 portion of the screen here is the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct?

16 And I want you to just identify, if you could --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- a couple of markings. On top of the enclave, there appears to

19 be a cross with four Cs. I'll ask you about that in a second, but if you

20 look in the lower right-hand quadrant of that cross, there are some

21 markings, the abbreviation 1 PB and 2 PB. Do you see where I'm referring

22 to, sir?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Okay. And do you know what those markings refer to, based on

25 looking at this map?

Page 12018

1 A. According to these abbreviations, this indicates infantry

2 battalions.

3 Q. And when you were serving in the Srebrenica operation, the

4 battalion-size groups that were formed, were they given a number during

5 the operation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. Do these particular battalion markings and the directions

8 indicated next to them suggest anything to you concerning the Srebrenica

9 operation and the movements of the VRS troops during it? There appear to

10 be arrows moving to the north west of Zeleni Jadar marked 1st Battalion,

11 other arrows moving more due west, marked 2nd Battalion.

12 A. These are marks -- markings and axis of activities that someone

13 was contemplated, I presume, and I see that the name of Krstic is named

14 here, but I cannot establish any connection with the operation in which I

15 took part.

16 Q. Does the marking of the 1st Battalion, is that consistent with the

17 movements of your forces, sir? The arrow that is shown there?

18 A. No, no, no.

19 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Court what this cross mark with the four

20 letters represents that's over the Srebrenica --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness says that

23 he cannot establish any connection with the operation in which he took

24 part. Therefore I don't see the point of asking further questions with

25 regard to this map.

Page 12019

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment, Mr. Thayer?

2 MR. THAYER: I'm asking him whether he recognises what that symbol

3 is, Your Honour. It's a simple question.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We see no problem with that question. Go ahead if

6 you can answer that question, please, Mr. Trivic.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This cross and four Ss, yes, four

8 letters S.


10 Q. And does that represent anything to you, sir? Do you recognise

11 that as having any particular meaning?

12 A. I think that the map itself and what General Krstic signed

13 indicates that it's a Serbian map, that Srebrenica has been and remained

14 Serbian.

15 Q. And is that in fact what you read in the handwriting to the right

16 of the portion of the map you're looking at?

17 A. Yes. I've just read that it reads, "Srebrenica was and is still

18 Serbs." And the date is the 12th of July, and I think this is how he was

19 thinking and planning, and this symbol of 4 Ss was probably added later

20 on. But it has nothing to do with the operation.

21 Q. Now, do you see any signature anywhere on the map, sir?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And can you read the signature?

24 A. Major General Rad Krstic, and that's his signature.

25 Q. And is there any significance when a general signs a map?

Page 12020

1 A. I think this is his personal map that he was using, and it

2 reflects his thoughts about something, but as a combat document, I've

3 never laid eyes on this map.

4 Q. So this is from your recollection not the map that you saw on that

5 occasion that you referred to; is that correct?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Madam Fauveau?

7 MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you wish to comment on that?

9 MR. THAYER: I didn't receive interpretation, but I think I

10 understood it well enough --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right.

12 MR. THAYER: -- that it's been asked and answered twice or

13 something to that effect.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I apologise to you, but usually when Madam

15 Fauveau speaks, I follow her in French, and the fact that interpretation

16 did not filter through escaped me completely.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises for not switching on

18 the microphone.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, it's -- I apologise, I apologise too. So

20 Mr. Thayer, it's a suggestion by Ms. Fauveau is that this has been asked

21 twice and -- has been asked and has already been answered, so what's your

22 position on that?

23 MR. THAYER: My position is he's indicated he's not familiar with

24 it, but I just wanted to put it to rest that whether or not this is the

25 map that he saw in -- on the occasion that he described earlier. It's

Page 12021

1 just a simple yes or no question.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Mr. Trivic, let's clarify this once and

4 for all. Have you seen this map before?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it.

7 JUDGE KWON: If we could scroll this map a bit to the right,

8 further and further down, and then down, down, down, down, yes. Further

9 down. If you could ask the witness to read this part as well.

10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Your Honour. That was the last question I

11 had on this issue.

12 Q. Can you read what's written there, sir?

13 A. Yes, I can. "Zepa is Serbian too, 27th July, 1995, Major General

14 Rad Krstic," signed.

15 Q. Okay. Let's move on, sir. I want to turn your attention to

16 directive 7 which you were asked a number of questions about yesterday.

17 And you were read a portion, and this is at page 10 of the English and

18 page 15 of the B/C/S, 65 ter number 5, the portion under the Drina Corps

19 tasking, part of it reads, "By planned and well-thought-out combat

20 operations create an unbearable situation of total insecurity with no hope

21 of further survival or life for the inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa."

22 Now, you testified yesterday that you don't interpret this as a

23 plan of attack on a civilian population. Are you aware of any efforts

24 undertaken by the VRS to make life unbearable for the inhabitants of

25 Srebrenica and Zepa, to create a situation of total insecurity with no

Page 12022

1 hope of further survival or life? Are you aware of any efforts undertaken

2 by the VRS in that regard?

3 A. No, I'm not. I'm not aware of any such effort aimed at achieving

4 this as described in this portion.

5 Q. Now I want to turn -- I'm sorry. I thought you were finished.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, witness, since there was this small

8 interruption, the interpreters didn't catch up your last words. If you

9 could kindly repeat them, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally am not aware.


12 Q. Okay. At page 14 of this document, directive 7, which is page 21

13 of the B/C/S, there is a portion, I'll just move it along, I'll just read

14 it: "The relevant state and military organs responsible for work with

15 UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations shall, through the planned and

16 unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits reduce and limit the

17 logistics support of UNPROFOR to the enclaves and the supply of material

18 resources to the Muslim population, making them dependent on our goodwill

19 while at the same time avoiding condemnation by the international

20 community and international public opinion."

21 Now, sir, do you know which Main Staff assistant commander, if

22 any, was primarily responsible for liaison with international

23 organisations and with UNPROFOR?

24 A. I don't know. I don't know who was designated to do that job.

25 Q. And do you know which Main Staff assistant commander was primarily

Page 12023

1 responsible for approving and denying UNPROFOR and UNHCR conveys to the

2 enclaves?

3 A. I don't know because through the defence zone of the 2nd Romanija

4 Brigade, these routes did not run, and I don't know who was responsible

5 and who was in charge.

6 Q. Well, sir, were you aware of any plan or operation directed by the

7 VRS to cut off the resupply of DutchBat and to restrict the inflow of

8 humanitarian aid to the Srebrenica enclave?

9 A. I'm not aware of that, although by reading the book "Srebrenica:

10 Chronicle of a Crime" or something like that, written by members of the

11 DutchBat, one may draw conclusions -- a conclusion that there were certain

12 problems but that on the other hand, there were certain agreements and

13 that it did work with difficulties but the supply lines were operational.

14 Q. All right, sir. Let's move along. I want to turn to a new

15 topic. With respect to the Srebrenica operation, in response to the VRS

16 attack on the enclaves, were you ever informed or advised during the

17 course of the preparation or the operation, if NATO came in, in support of

18 UNPROFOR, either with air strikes or reinforcement, reinforcements, was

19 there a plan to engage in combat with those NATO elements?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Okay. May we have 65 ter 107, please?

22 Sir, this is the attack plan that you've been asked a lot of

23 questions about. I would just turn your attention, if we could have page

24 4 of the original, that's page 6 of the English, and we will be focusing

25 on paragraphs 8 and 9, please. Thank you.

Page 12024

1 Do you see the portion under "anti-aircraft defence" where it

2 says, "In case of a NATO air strike have material for anti-aircraft

3 operations in all units open fire on low flying planes that threaten the

4 order of battle"? Do you see that, sir?

5 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I see it, but I would like to go back to the

6 title of this document. This is not an order to attack but an order to

7 carry out active activities, which is substantially different. I've seen

8 this and -- but why I said I didn't see this, my unit didn't have any

9 anti-aircraft equipment and quite simply we didn't organise any

10 anti-aircraft defence within my unit.

11 Q. Okay. Let me show -- turn your attention to paragraph 9 where it

12 says, "Anti-airborne-landing combat: If NATO forces make an airborne

13 landing in support of UNPROFOR, the units closest to the landing place and

14 reserve forces will engage in combat with them. Artillery and armoured

15 mechanised units will support an anti-airborne-landing combat at the given

16 signal."

17 Sir, do you remember ever being informed of this aspect of the

18 plan?

19 A. I have to tell you that this order was drafted according to the

20 pattern that was used as a standard form and that it was a normal

21 practice. It doesn't speak or doesn't give us any particular information

22 and there it is similar to other orders of this nature that were issued.

23 This was the standard procedure of assigning tasks to units, and on the

24 basis of the knowledge that anti-aircraft defence is supported by

25 artillery and other units.

Page 12025

1 Q. Okay. May we have 65 ter 108 displayed, please?

2 Do you see that document in front of you, sir? It's from the

3 Drina Corps command dated 5 July to all subordinate units and it

4 specifically refers to, "In view of possible actions by NATO air forces

5 and rapid reaction forces around the enclaves and in particular around the

6 Srebrenica enclave." Do you see the order section?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Do you see where it says, "In particular, be prepared to use all

9 available weapons against helicopters of the rapid reaction forces in

10 order to prevent them flying over the front line and threatening our

11 forces in depth"? Do you see that, sir? Do you see that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Okay. And how about paragraph 2 where it says "open fire on

14 planes and helicopters without requesting special authorisation"? Do you

15 see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic?

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. This line

19 of questioning goes beyond the framework of the cross-examination.

20 Nowhere in my -- or in the cross-examination was there any mention of NATO

21 forces or rapid reaction forces but, rather, UNPROFOR and these are two

22 different things. There were both UNPROFOR and NATO forces or rather

23 rapid reaction forces in Bosnia. Therefore, this question goes beyond my

24 cross-examination.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

Page 12026

1 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, there was lengthy examination on

2 cross-examination as to how UNPROFOR, UN forces were to be treated with

3 maximum protection and that the UN and UNPROFOR were not targets of this

4 operation and I'm simply asking this witness whether he remembers

5 receiving certain orders with respect, as I asked him, to what would

6 happen if there were reinforcements or air support in connection with

7 those forces.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau?

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I really think that

10 one ought to distinguish between UNPROFOR forces and NATO forces which

11 were the aggressor on the territory of the Republika Srpska.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer, do you wish to comment on that?

13 MR. THAYER: No, not on that, Mr. President. I don't think we

14 need to go down that road.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We believe that this has been answered already in

17 one way or another. Let's move, Mr. Thayer, and you have exceeded already

18 the three-quarters of an hour.

19 MR. THAYER: I have, Your Honour. I'm trying to keep it moving.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: In ten minutes time we have a break. I enjoin you

21 to try to bring your cross -- your re-examination to a close as soon as

22 possible, please.

23 MR. THAYER: I'll do my best, Mr. President.

24 Q. Now, sir --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: They have taken it as a joke.

Page 12027

1 MR. THAYER: It's a Freudian slip. I understand, Mr. President.

2 Q. Sir, you were asked on Monday a very specific question by my

3 friend, Mr. Krgovic at page 11883, line 17: "Are you aware of the

4 existence of a plan on the part of some of the UNPROFOR officials to use

5 helicopter flights around Srebrenica to provoke the VRS soldiers into

6 opening fire at helicopters which would then be used as an excuse for

7 bombing the VRS forces?" And you answered that you had and that you had

8 examined some documents and statements by certain members of UN forces and

9 then specifically identified General Smith as, in your words, the person

10 who was in favour of provoking the VRS fire against the aircraft involved

11 in the distribution of the humanitarian aid to the area.

12 Now, and you reiterated that yesterday and again in your testimony

13 yesterday you specifically referred to studying some documents in coming

14 to your conclusion, in addition to General Smith's statement. And you

15 referred on a number of occasions to reviewing documents and materials.

16 First, just quickly, sir, what other cases have you served as a

17 defence expert or consultant or assisted in? And the reason I'm asking is

18 I just want to know, have you been provided with documents, reports and

19 statements in connection with your work in those other cases that are

20 pertinent to the events in Srebrenica in July, 1995?

21 A. I did not state that I was aware of the plan. I said that there

22 were statements to that effect, and one of the statements referred to by

23 the authors of the book "Our Dear War Criminals" contains or rather refers

24 to a statement by General Smith that he asked representatives of UN forces

25 to provoke the Serb side or, rather, the -- any sort of fire upon

Page 12028

1 helicopters bringing in humanitarian aid in order to provide him with the

2 basis for the engagement of the air forces to engage and strike Serbian

3 positions.

4 Secondly, I wish to comment upon the two documents I have just

5 seen. When thinking about the possible threats of dangers, they were

6 considering the positions of the VRS forces in and around enclaves, that

7 they might be exposed to NATO air strikes. This is what they were

8 considering. And I think that for this reason, they thought that they

9 ought to protect their forces. This is just a normal line of thinking on

10 the part of a commander, to envisage all sorts of threats that may befall

11 their forces and to take measures accordingly.

12 Q. Okay. Well, do you remember actually being given the statement of

13 General Smith to the Office of the Prosecutor and whether that was what

14 you were referring to? Or are you just referring to the two books that

15 you just told us about only?

16 A. I also read General Smith's statement.

17 Q. Okay. So let me just see if this is what you remember reading.

18 This is General Smith's statement at page 10, B/C/S page 11, "Throughout

19 April the situation in Bosnia deteriorated further. The enclaves

20 continued to be squeezed logistically to the extent that I made a further

21 plan to resupply the enclaves by helicopter, daring the BSA to attack a

22 helicopter with the prospect of subsequent air attack. This plan was put

23 to the UNHQs in Zagreb and New York but was seen as too risky and

24 confrontational."

25 Was that the statement you remember reading, sir?

Page 12029

1 A. Roughly. I believe that something is missing in the contents.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: Something is missing in B/C/S.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't help you there.

4 MR. THAYER: And I can show the --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you go through your last part of -- or the

6 entire question? Which part is missing, Mr. Krgovic?

7 MR. KRGOVIC: "Daring the BSA to attack helicopters with the

8 prospect of subsequent air attack."

9 MR. THAYER: No. The statement -- I'll reread the statement,

10 then. That's a misinterpretation.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could kindly --

12 MR. THAYER: Sure.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- do that, please, Mr. Thayer.

14 MR. THAYER: And it's just -- everything was correct except --

15 it's "with the prospect of subsequent air attack."

16 JUDGE AGIUS: What would be the correct -- your correct statement

17 in English, during -- daring the BSA -- daring the BSA to attack a

18 helicopter? What did you actually say?

19 MR. THAYER: What I read literally, Your Honour, was: "The

20 enclaves continue to be squeezed logistically to the extent that I made a

21 further plan to resupply the enclaves by helicopter, daring the BSA to

22 attack a helicopter with the prospect of subsequent air attack."

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is it clear now? Mr. Krgovic?

24 MR. KRGOVIC: It's clear, but I have the statement in B/C/S that's

25 quite different.

Page 12030

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And how is it different, if you could explain,

2 because we don't understand the language?

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may read it out, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] "During April the situation in

6 Bosnia further deteriorated. The enclaves were logistically squeezed to

7 such an extent that I created a new plan for supplying the enclaves by

8 helicopter. This was a daring to the army of Republika Srpska,

9 challenging the army of Republika Srpska to attack the enclaves so that

10 then we would strike them."

11 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I can't say anything more than I'm

12 reading the English statement as it was written by the investigator. So

13 if we are getting things lost in translation, I --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not a native English speaker, as you know, and I

15 feel a little bit lost in trying to find a difference between the two

16 versions. Perhaps Mr. Josse or Mr. Haynes can help us. Yes, unless Madam

17 Fauveau has polished her English to an extent that she can resolve the

18 whole question for us.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but I am

20 increasingly concerned. I believe that this statement by General Smith

21 was not correctly interpreted into the B/C/S, and a moment ago we had a

22 very important document that was not in -- translated well from the B/C/S

23 into English, and we will not make much headway if the Prosecutor bases

24 his submissions on the English versions and we on the B/C/S versions. I

25 believe that this calls for a serious comparison and checking of all

Page 12031

1 translations.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will be done in the break.

3 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Thayer and I have had some

4 discussion about this extract over the last few days, and I came to the

5 conclusion that there might be a translation problem. In other words, of

6 course the original of general Smith's statement is in English, it has

7 therefore been translated into B/C/S, there might be a problem. We

8 haven't had that sorted out yet. It might take a bit of time, but

9 basically I'm supporting what Madam Fauveau is saying, there may be a

10 difficulty.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: She's 100 per cent right. If the translation

12 doesn't reflect verbatim the English version, it may well be B/C/S version

13 or rendering of what is the English -- the original in English, but not

14 necessarily an exact translation thereof. So we need to -- but in this

15 case, I don't see much difference between what is contained in the English

16 original and what has been read by Mr. Krgovic and translated to us into

17 English. I mean, the bottom line at the end, at the end, the substance is

18 there. They are both saying the same thing. So we'll have a 25-minute

19 break starting from now. Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.13 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Sir, just one last question on this issue of what you read that

25 led you to your conclusion regarding the purpose of the helicopter

Page 12032

1 resupply plan. As part of the materials that you've reviewed in

2 connection with your service as an expert or consultant, were you ever

3 given a copy of the 1999 UN report to the General Assembly? And that's 65

4 ter 528. Do you recall that, whether you were ever given that document?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. Let me just read you a portion of that and see if that is a

7 document that you may have been given and if it's consistent with what

8 you're basing your interpretation on.

9 This is at page 45, paragraph 184: "As the military situation

10 deteriorated, the Serbs further restricted access to the eastern enclaves,

11 both for UNPROFOR and for the international humanitarian organisations.

12 For the UNPROFOR units within the enclaves, this lack of access caused a

13 degradation of their military capability while for the local population

14 the result was a further worsening of living conditions. The UNPROFOR

15 commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina proposed that the enclaves be resupplied

16 by helicopter with NATO air power to be used if the Serbs attempted to

17 intercept any of the helicopters. His superior in Zagreb, the force

18 commander, assessed that there was a considerable likelihood that the

19 Serbs would indeed fire upon the helicopters and thus sought the views of

20 the member states whose troops or air assets would be required to conduct

21 the operation. Those states did not respond favourably."

22 Do you remember being furnished with this report or reading any

23 material that is consistent with this report, sir? And if so, is it

24 consistent or not with your interpretation of the purpose of the

25 resupply-by-helicopter plan?

Page 12033

1 A. This report is consistent in the part which mentions that there

2 were proposals to bring in humanitarian supplies by helicopters and that

3 there was the threat of the escalation of confrontations.

4 Q. Okay. I want to turn to an area of discussion yesterday

5 concerning command, and I've narrowed it down considerably but I want to

6 get to a couple of primary points, important points that were raised

7 yesterday. You were asked some questions about when you were in the field

8 and who was in charge back in your brigade, and you identified your Chief

9 of Staff as being that individual.

10 Now, sir, when you were in the field, how important was it for

11 you, as brigade commander, to communicate with that Chief of Staff?

12 A. My Chief of Staff in my absence from the command post carried out

13 all the activities in accordance with my decision on the engagement of

14 units. He was to settle certain matters with regard to logistics, and in

15 all matters he continued to carry out all the tasks he was aware of

16 pursuant to my decision.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please specify

19 whether his question had to do with the absence of the commander within

20 the area of responsibility of the brigade or when the commander is absent

21 outside that area? Or rather he is outside that area.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

23 MR. THAYER: I'm actually getting to that, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau, and thank you, Mr. Thayer.


Page 12034

1 Q. Now, when you were in the field, whether inside your area or

2 outside your area, what types of information would it be important for

3 your Chief of Staff, who was in charge in your place, to communicate to

4 you?

5 A. I will go back to my explanation of this relationship that I gave

6 back in Banja Luka in the UN office, namely about the relationship and in

7 what situation is he required to ask my opinion. Well, he's required to

8 do that only when something changes in relation to my decision is the

9 Chief of Staff required to inform me or to inform the superior command and

10 ask for their position to get feedback from them and see whether he has

11 the approval for changing my decision. Since I have not been through such

12 situations as these, my Chief of Staff never had occasion or need to get

13 in touch with me for any changes in matters to be taken care of concerning

14 my brigade.

15 Q. Well, given your experience, who is the first superior commander

16 or superior officer that your Chief of Staff should try to contact in such

17 a circumstance?

18 A. First and foremost, he should get in touch with me, if that is

19 possible. If that's not possible, then he should contact the superior

20 command, with the person who approved my decisions, and that's the corps

21 commander.

22 Q. You were asked some questions about superior command officers

23 arriving at your brigade and beginning to conduct business there. Do you

24 remember those questions?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12035

1 Q. And I -- you testified that -- this is at page 65. You were asked

2 the question, "When officers from superior command came to the brigade,

3 you didn't have the right or power to stop them doing their job at the

4 brigade, did you?" And you answered, "I didn't say that if they announced

5 their arrival I can stop them or prevent them from doing their job. At

6 any rate, they would do their part of the job with the organ who was his

7 functioning corresponding post. Of course, the commander would not

8 prevent him from doing his duty, but it is the rule that such an arrival

9 has to be announced."

10 Now, my question, sir, is: How about if these officers from the

11 superior command arrived at your brigade and their business or their job

12 or the work they were doing involved something illegal, involved illegal

13 orders or illegal activity? Number one, if you were there in the brigade,

14 what would you do?

15 MR. HAYNES: Does that question presuppose that he knows that they

16 were up to anything illegal? I think that ought to be clarified.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We agree. I don't know if you wish to comment on

18 that, but we fully agree with what Mr. Haynes has pointed out.

19 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President. I presume he can't act if

20 he doesn't know.

21 Q. So the question is: If you were made aware that this illegal

22 conduct or illegal orders are being issued by or through these superior

23 command officers, what do you do?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would --

Page 12036

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a hypothetical

3 question. The witness is asked to speculate in theory. It is not his

4 experience based on the duties he performed at the time that is sought.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer?

7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, in the first instance, there was a

8 fair amount of expert opinion that was elicited, I would respectfully

9 submit, through this witness.

10 Secondly, I'm not asking for an expert opinion. I'm asking based

11 on his experience, his knowledge, his training, his service in the army,

12 his knowledge of the regulations, his understanding of his duties and

13 responsibilities as a brigade commander, what was he to do in that

14 circumstance.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't agree that the witness is being asked to

16 speculate, Ms. Nikolic.

17 So based on what your experience and knowledge of the

18 circumstances were, could you kindly answer the question now, Mr. Trivic,

19 please? And I don't think we need to repeat the question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If somebody from the superior

21 command to carry out something in coordination with an organ of the

22 command or the command itself, to carry out something illegal, I believe

23 it is only natural that I wouldn't allow such a thing to happen, and I

24 would take measures, disciplinary and other measures, against the officer

25 involved, any such measures as are envisaged for such situations.

Page 12037


2 Q. Now, let's turn to the situation where you're in the field,

3 whether you're out of your area or within your area, but if you yourself

4 return to your brigade and you learn that members of your own brigade are

5 engaging in criminal conduct or they've been following illegal orders

6 issued from a higher command, is your answer the same or would you do

7 something different?

8 A. It would be the same in both situations. My duty would be to

9 inform the superior command about what had happened and what measures I

10 had taken.

11 Q. And, sir, if such illegal activity had been underway in your

12 brigade and your Chief of Staff had knowledge of it while you were in the

13 field, in your experience, what would you expect him to do with that

14 information?

15 A. I would expect him to act in the same manner, within the scope of

16 duties and responsibilities of all officers, including the brigade Chief

17 of Staff. The duties is to undertake identical measures. There are no

18 different rules applicable to officers and commanding staff.

19 Q. And who would you expect to be the first person he would contact

20 with respect to that information of illegal conduct or illegal orders

21 within the brigade?

22 A. Are you referring to the Chief of Staff?

23 Q. Yes, your Chief of Staff, sir, who you've been referring to.

24 A. The first person that he should inform about is the commander.

25 Q. And that would be you; is that correct?

Page 12038

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, sir, I want to turn to another area. You were asked the

3 following question yesterday. Actually -- well, I'll just read the

4 question: "In July of 1995, there was no need whatsoever for anyone to

5 stand in for General Milovanovic in his position of Chief of Staff of the

6 VRS."

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The question read by the Prosecutor

9 was indeed asked, but it was withdrawn. In actual fact it wasn't asked at

10 all.

11 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President, but there had been

12 prior --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I recollect as well, yeah.

14 MR. THAYER: -- prior discussion about what standing in and those

15 types of terms meant. There was substantial questioning about whether

16 General Milovanovic was standing in at a particular time and who was in

17 command, and I just want to ask a couple of questions on that particular

18 issue.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me clear this. From my memory - and I stand to

20 be corrected - but usually I'm not wrong when I try to remember. The

21 question that Ms. Fauveau had asked the witness was the following: "And

22 when General Milovanovic was not around, was not available, or in any

23 case, could General Miletic take decisions independently?"

24 Now, at that point in time you stood up and made some kind of

25 objection, without belittling your objection, and Madam Fauveau's response

Page 12039

1 was, "Okay, I withdraw the question." It's true that you withdrew the

2 question, but the question, the previous questions that you had put

3 basically were along the -- constituted a series of questions of within

4 the chain of command what would happen in the absence of or the

5 unavailability of one of the commanders. And it wasn't just you who had

6 hinted at this on this issue, but also others who had put questions. So I

7 think at this point in time, I will consult my colleagues --

8 MR. THAYER: If I may, Your Honour.


10 MR. THAYER: This question was -- this particular question was

11 asked and answered, page 44, line 13. It was a subsequent question that

12 was, I think, withdrawn. So there has been testimony. I don't think we

13 are saying anything different, but I just wanted to put on the record --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: There was definitely questions by Madam Fauveau on

15 General Milovanovic, whether General Miletic was subordinate to General

16 Milovanovic and where was General Milovanovic at some point in time, so I

17 think -- I think I need to consult with my colleagues before we hand down

18 our ruling.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, then.

21 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. If we may be shown 65 ter 44, please? Sir, this is -- do you see

23 an image on your screen?

24 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I do.

25 Q. This is a daily combat report from the Main Staff dated July 12th,

Page 12040

1 1995. If we could turn to the third page, please, it's the last page, of

2 the B/C/S, and if we could scroll down to the bottom, sir, this daily

3 combat report was sent, in addition to the corps command, to the president

4 of the Republika Srpska, and I just ask to you look at the signature line

5 in the lower left-hand corner, and can you read what that says, sir,

6 please?

7 A. It reads, "standing in for the Chief of Staff, Major General

8 Radivoje Miletic."

9 Q. And, sir, what does that term mean to you, in your experience?

10 A. This suggests that General Miletic in this area, discharged duties

11 in terms of collecting information from subordinate units, processing this

12 information and forwarding it to the relevant quarters or recipients named

13 in the preamble of this report.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. I'll spare you showing you some other

15 examples of these. If we could have P02497? Do you see the document in

16 front of you?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. It's dated 18 June 1995. It's with respect to approvals and

19 convoy routes for three UNPROFOR convoys. Can we turn to the second page

20 of the original, please? Again there is some handwriting in the lower

21 left-hand corner above the time stamp box. Can you read what that says?

22 A. Yes. "Standing in for NSH, Colonel Radivoje Miletic".

23 Q. Now, I'd ask you to read the large paragraph, please, that appears

24 on this page, if you could just read that into the record.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

Page 12041

1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no objection

2 to the witness reading this document, but in that case, it will be

3 necessary for him to read it in its entirety, because this passage was

4 totally taken out of context and it does not reflect the whole of the

5 document in a proper way.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: How long is the document?

7 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, it's two pages. And the first page is

8 simply convoy routes, dates and times.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll give the opportunity to the

10 witness to go through the document as quickly as he can, concentrating on

11 what is relevant to the question basically.

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] If I may help the Prosecution and

13 the witness, I would be satisfied only to hear the first sentence on the

14 first page be read out and then we can move on to this particular

15 paragraph on page 2.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's do that.

17 MR. THAYER: Certainly, absolutely.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. The first paragraph on the first

19 page, we can see, although we can't understand.


21 Q. Can you read that, sir, just please read it out, if you can.

22 A. Open text, "Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska."

23 Q. Let me stop you right there. I think my learned friend was

24 referring to the first sentence - I'm sorry - under where it says

25 "military post 7111," if you do just read that line, please.

Page 12042

1 A. "We hereby inform you that we have approved the movement of

2 UNPROFOR convoy from Zagreb via Belgrade to the enclaves according to the

3 following."

4 Q. Okay. May we have the second page now, please? And sir, would

5 you please read that large paragraph? And I just want to ask you a couple

6 of quick questions about it.

7 A. "I demand that all vehicles be searched thoroughly, which involves

8 the checking of the freight being transported, particularly fuel in fuel

9 tanks and fuel transported to the enclaves. Also check the documents and

10 particularly pay attention to checking the identity of all individuals,

11 making the list of their names and their ID cards in order to ensure that

12 the individuals entering the enclaves will -- shall leave the enclaves

13 after their mission is completed."

14 Q. Now, sir, you testified yesterday that General Miletic could not

15 issue orders, and that was at page 43, line 16. Is there a difference

16 between originating an order and passing an order, or passing on an order?

17 A. There is a crucial difference, and it's reflected in this

18 document. These orders were not issued. They do not encroach on the

19 Krivaja 95 decisions. They do not interfere with the decisions of the

20 commander of the Main Staff, but, rather, this is a notice going out to

21 the commands, in this case to the military post, and it is a request for

22 the military post to carry out this task in line with this instructions.

23 Q. Okay, sir. My only question on this document at this time, then,

24 is: When the chief of operations and training of the Main Staff of the

25 VRS who's standing in for the Chief of Staff issues a document which

Page 12043

1 says, "I demand a detailed control of all vehicles," with further

2 instructions in it and this gets distributed, as it did to your brigade,

3 as we can see from the first page, how free would you feel to disregard

4 that paragraph?

5 A. It is obvious that this refers to the procedures that both sides

6 had to adhere to when these convoys were passing through, and I don't see

7 anything here that bears relevance to combat activities. These were

8 standard procedures to be observed and everyone involved was aware of

9 those procedures. There was an agreement that particular attention should

10 be paid to specific issues during the passage of the convoy on account of

11 certain suspicions that there were certain activities that were contrary

12 to the established procedures, in some previous instances of similar

13 nature in some previous convoy passages.

14 Q. Well, sir, I'm not asking you about combat activity in this

15 sentence. I'm asking you if you had not followed these procedures as

16 demanded in this paragraph, what would the consequences have been, if you

17 had permitted these vehicles simply to go through?

18 A. There is no mention here of units. This refers to the military

19 post 7111. This notice was addressed to it, as was the demand for it to

20 adhere to proper procedure. And I don't know if they complied.

21 Q. Well, what do you think would have happened if they didn't comply,

22 sir?

23 A. I think it's inconceivable that they wouldn't comply. They were

24 informed what they were supposed to do, and I presume that they reported

25 back about what they did to the Main Staff, and that would be the

Page 12044

1 information or report recorded as mission completed by Colonel --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the name of the

3 colonel.


5 Q. Can you just repeat the name, sir, mission completed by Colonel?

6 The interpreter didn't pick up the name.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Who was the colonel?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Radivoje Miletic.


10 Q. Sir, you testified on -- I want to go into another area -- on

11 Monday that your unit did not fire on the town of Srebrenica, that you

12 didn't observe, notice or hear any other units firing upon the town of

13 Srebrenica. Were you ever provided with any UN documents, such as UN

14 military observer reports or statements of Dutch soldiers, humanitarian

15 organisation employees or Muslim civilians who were in Srebrenica and

16 Potocari during the VRS attack?

17 A. In which period?

18 Q. At any time, were you provided with any such documents concerning

19 statements or information from any of the types of people I just

20 identified who were in Srebrenica and Potocari during the time of the VRS

21 attack? For example, while you were engaged in your operation.

22 A. During my engagement in the Krivaja 95 operation, I didn't receive

23 any information to that effect.

24 Q. Well, again, I'll spare you going through a number of such UNMO

25 reports. There is just one I want to go through in the time we have

Page 12045

1 left. You testified that when you were in Srebrenica town on the 11th and

2 12th, you didn't see any evidence of artillery fire there and, in

3 particular, you saw no evidence of damage from shells to the hospital.

4 I just want to just read to you from 65 ter 501. It's a UN

5 situation report dated the 10th of July at 12.55 p.m.: "Two heavy shells,

6 probably 155-millimetre artillery shells hit the direct surrounding of the

7 hospital at 1100 hours. All the windows are smashed and shrapnel has

8 showered the walls and rooms of the hospital. It looks as if the BSA are

9 now targeting the hospital and the surroundings."

10 Sir, first of all, what kind of weapon fires a 155-millimetre

11 shell?

12 A. I am an artillery man, and if you're asking me a technical

13 question, because it doesn't say here that it was a 155-millimetre but

14 that it was probably this shell, then I presume it must have been fired

15 from a 155-millimetre howitzer gun.

16 Q. And you never received any of that information, did you, sir?

17 A. Not at the time.

18 Q. You never saw the glass on the ground, I guess; is that correct?

19 A. There were broken windows. I don't know what kind of buildings we

20 are talking about but there were no destroyed buildings. The hospital

21 wasn't destroyed. It says close to the hospital, in close proximity of

22 the hospital. So the building itself was not demolished.

23 Q. Finally, sir, you testified about informing superior command about

24 conducting asanacija, and can we have 65 ter number 219 displayed,

25 please? If we could have page 24 of the original?

Page 12046

1 Sir, this, as you can see from the title, is a reports and

2 meetings of the 1st Bratunac light Infantry Brigade. The page I'm going

3 to have displayed at page 11 is dated 16 October 1995. If we could scroll

4 down to the bottom, do you see the entry that says "Nikolic"?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Just for the record, we are not representing that this has

7 anything -- that this refers to the accused, Drago Nikolic, in this

8 reference to Nikolic. Do you see the last line there, sir? Can you just

9 read what it says?

10 A. The last line reads, "We are currently involved in carrying out

11 the duties given by the GSH VRS (asanacija)."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Nikolic?

13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the translation in the

14 transcript and what my learned colleague said is inconsistent. I think

15 this has to do with the Bratunac Brigade, if I'm not mistaken. However,

16 in the B/C/S interpretation, it was said that this refers to the accused

17 Nikolic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It says, just for the record, we are not

19 representing -- basically we are not asserting that this has anything to

20 anything to do, that this refers, to the accused Drago Nikolic. I think

21 it's clear enough. You don't have to worry about it. Neither has your

22 client. Yes, go ahead.


24 Q. And sir, that --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He's read it.

Page 12047


2 Q. That abbreviation, GSH VRS, what does that stand for?

3 A. Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska.

4 Q. Sir, did you ever become aware of any operation to dig up and

5 rebury bodies of thousands of Muslim men and boys from Srebrenica who had

6 been executed following the fall of the enclave?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And you were asked about how asanacija is supposed to be done as a

9 matter of humanitarian rights of people, care for their families, human

10 dignity and due piety.

11 Can we be shown P02103, page 246, please?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Could you please repeat the 65 ter number?

13 MR. THAYER: P02103.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: At the top of the page indeed it shows P02103, so--

15 the screen, sorry, not the page.

16 MR. THAYER: It's just loading up, I think, Mr. President.



19 Q. Do you have an image on your screen, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sir, it's the Prosecution's position that this is a photograph of

22 a mass grave exhumed north of Zvornik and it contains the bodies of some

23 of those men and boys. Is this consistent with the human dignity and due

24 piety that you described asanacija requiring for burying the dead?

25 A. It is not. Of course, it is not.

Page 12048

1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions for you

2 at this time.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to ask

5 the Trial Chamber's permission to put one or two questions to the witness

6 about a document that the Prosecutor showed to the witness and which

7 constituted a continuation of my cross-examination which I did not wish to

8 pursue upon a request by the Prosecution. And I promise it will not take

9 more than a couple of minutes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But we are already past 7.00, Madam Fauveau. It's

11 two minutes past the hour already.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically that means the witness has to return

14 tomorrow for two minutes or three minutes.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. You've got two minutes and we finish

17 because the witness has to leave.

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. President. Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2488?

20 Further cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Before this exhibit comes up, before General

22 Miletic signs a document as the person standing in for the Chief of Staff,

23 is it not true that the contents of that document have to be in accordance

24 with the instructions issued by the Chief of Staff?

25 THE REGISTRAR: This number cannot be correct.

Page 12049

1 JUDGE AGIUS: She doesn't need the document.

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I don't think I will need the

3 document.

4 Q. Sir, can you repeat your answer? It was not recorded.

5 A. Yes. It has to be in accordance with the instructions issued by

6 the Chief of Staff.

7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

8 questions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your consideration, Madam Fauveau.

10 Witness, I won't keep you any longer. Thank you for having come

11 over to give testimony. On behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe journey

12 back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We stand adjourned until tomorrow at the same time,

16 2.15.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of May,

19 2007, at 2.15 p.m.