1 Tuesday, 26 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody. Good morning, Dr. Barr.
7 Good morning, Madam Registrar, if you could be kind enough to call the
8 case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All the accused are here. I'm looking at the
12 Defence Bench. I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes and of Mr. Meek. I
13 think that's all. From the Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey and
14 Ms. Soljan. Anybody else? No.
15 Dr. Barr, good morning, once more. We are supposed to conclude
16 with your testimony pretty soon, I suppose. There were only two Defence
17 teams that put questions to you yesterday. So I'm going to ask
18 Mr. Ostojic first whether he has furthers questions for the witness.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, I do.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, then.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
22 WITNESS: KATHRYN BARR [Resumed]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]
24 MR. OSTOJIC:
25 Q. Good morning, Dr. Barr?
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I did notice that you had some examination notes and also what you
3 considered to be a tick sheets I think you called them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Those are actually quite frankly very limited, are they not? For
6 example, on the first Jokic report you have two and a half to three pages
7 of examination notes, correct?
8 A. If you say so, yes.
9 Q. It's in there. And then you have a one page document which I
10 think is classified as a tick sheet, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. What I didn't notice in the binder that was produced last night
13 was any evidence in your file of the peer review or quality assurance by
14 these "independent" document examiners that you mentioned. Were you able
15 to find that?
16 A. Yes, they've signed my report.
17 Q. I did not see that. Where is that? I'm looking over it and I see
18 it. Would you be, with the Court's the permission, be kind enough to place
19 that on the ELMO just so that we can see it or have the usher assist us in
20 that regard? That would be a draft report or your final report.
21 A. My final report.
22 Q. Okay. Who signed it, both of them?
23 A. Yes. I made a mistake yesterday when I said that it was
24 Dr. Hardcastle, Dr. Baxendale, it was actually Dr. Hardcastle who did it
25 which is the top signature. The bottom signature is the person who proof
2 Q. And you have the same signatures for the other reports, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you for that. Now, with respect to your tick sheet, if I
5 could direct your attention to the May 27, 2006 report, and if we could
6 also place that on the ELMO just so we could all understand what a tick
7 sheet is.
8 A. Who is it for, which one?
9 Q. For Trbic.
10 A. Before Trbic or --
11 Q. It's dated on top. It's not numbered in any manner but it's dated
12 the 27th of May, 06, at the top right-hand corner. It's captioned as
13 official duty officer logbook.
14 A. If you could show it to me I could find it.
15 Q. Sure. In any event, I think we can still proceed unless you think
16 you might need it?
17 A. Well, we'll see. I mean I can use -- if you want that back.
18 Q. I could read it -- if you leave it on the ELMO, I think we can
19 both share it. Would that be okay to share it?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Okay. Thanks. Now is this what you call a tick sheet where you
22 highlight each letter character on a piece of paper?
23 A. It is, yes.
24 Q. Other than the printed material that you have there, the other
25 material is your handwritten notes, correct?
1 A. Correct, yes.
2 Q. What does it signify after the letter "A" and then "a," what is
3 the note after that? What does it indicate?
4 A. It indicates a match.
5 Q. So every time you write this down, you would only record the
6 matches but not the differences?
7 A. No, I would record differences if I found them.
8 Q. Okay. How would you denote the differences?
9 A. Normally with a cross or a question mark.
10 Q. Okay. Now, the symbol I see that you have on some of these the
11 symbols a dash -- or I'll strike that, a check mark. Do you see that? Or
12 what I consider to be a check mark. I think I even highlighted it for
13 you, did I not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what's the significance or how would I interpret that check
16 mark on your tick sheet?
17 A. As a match between the writings.
18 Q. And do you use other symbols from time to time?
19 A. As I say, a question mark.
20 Q. And how about a dash or a negative or a minus sign?
21 A. A minus sign normally means that I can't compare it because the
22 characters aren't present.
23 Q. Okay. Now, if we can know that are there any other symbols that
24 you might use when you do your tick sheet and assessment of the various
25 letter characters for handwriting examination?
1 A. No.
2 Q. I'd like to turn actually now to the one that interests me most;
3 although, I use it kind of as guide and that's the one relating to
4 Mr. Jokic. Can you find that tick sheet for me and place it on the ELMO,
5 if you don't mind?
6 A. Is that the one dated the 11th of July?
7 Q. I think so. I'm trying to catch up with you. The one that
8 actually has the question marks and the dash marks and the other symbols
9 we've just discussed. Yeah, the 11th of July is perfect, in fact. Do you
10 have that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, in this one I see that the A has a question mark. Does it
14 A. It does, yes.
15 Q. And that means that it was not a match, correct?
16 A. No, it means it wasn't a good match.
17 Q. Based on your definition you just gave us moments ago, a question
18 mark would indicate not a match as opposed to what you're suggesting now
19 that it was not a good match?
20 A. I said crosses were not a match.
21 Q. Okay. We'll look into that. What about the B you have two
22 symbols there, one the abbreviation okay and a question mark. What does
23 that indicate?
24 A. It means it's not as good as an okay, but it's better than a
25 question mark.
1 Q. Okay. And the letter E what does that indicate? I mean the dash
2 or the negative sign.
3 A. It means there weren't any Es to compare.
4 Q. None whatsoever?
5 A. Not that I could find.
6 Q. Okay but let me ask you this. You took from Mr. Jokic his sample
7 which he copied the exact question specimen of all ten pages. Didn't he
8 just rewrite verbatim as we discussed yesterday each of these things?
9 A. He did but this is the tick sheet for my original examination.
10 Q. Okay. And you didn't have that at the time?
11 A. No, I didn't get the sample handwriting until January.
12 Q. Explain to me after your first report the second report you say
13 that you were unable to give a definite opinion; is that correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And in your third report, you also highlight that you were unable
16 to give a definite opinion with respect to the question of whether or not
17 this was Mr. Jokic's handwriting, correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Okay. Why, if you had more material, did you not state in your
20 first opinion or in your first report that you were unable to give a
21 definite opinion in connection with Mr. Jokic's handwriting versus the
22 questioned handwriting?
23 A. I did in my first report.
24 Q. Show it to me, please.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: Counsel and witness are
1 kindly asked to observe pauses between question and answer.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank the interpreters for that and I hope --
3 thank you.
4 MR. OSTOJIC:
5 Q. What paragraph is it, please?
6 A. Sorry, it's a difference in terminology. I state that there is
7 stronger, not conclusive evidence.
8 Q. But in each of your subsequent reports when you had more data
9 meaning more sample specimens of Mr. Jokic, you conclude even though the
10 Prosecutor asked to you give him a more definitive, if you will, opinion
11 on Mr. Jokic, you concluded on the subsequent reports that you cannot give
12 a definite opinion, correct?
13 A. In my last report that the middle report was just clarifying the
14 first report.
15 Q. But in both the middle report and the last report that's what you
16 state, is it not?
17 A. Which is what I stated in the first report.
18 Q. That you do not have a definite opinion?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Okay. Now, I want to ask you this, if I may, I saw in the notes
21 or materials that we reviewed or I reviewed yesterday a little synopsis
22 about your company. It says that there are seven people working there, at
23 least at that time, who are document examiners. Can you confirm with me
24 that there are seven or are there more now?
25 A. There is nine working as well -- eight working as document
1 examiners, one is a trainee.
2 Q. Who is Mike Allen?
3 A. He is one of my colleagues.
4 Q. Is he also a document examiner?
5 A. He is, yes.
6 Q. Still with the company?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, were you ever asked to determine how many individuals wrote
9 entries in the pages numbered 02935743 through 02935753, which are the ten
10 pages we've been discussing briefly here yesterday and today?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Well, let me direct your attention to your own file and a
13 letter from Peter boils dated the 27th of June 2003.
14 A. All right.
15 Q. You have it?
16 A. I do, yes.
17 Q. In the middle of the page he states or asks you a question after
18 he gives you some identification with the same numbers, right, 02935743 to
19 029352 -- 5753, do you see that?
20 A. I do, yes.
21 Q. And do you see in the middle he asks, "How many individuals wrote
22 entries in pages [numbered]" -- and then just to shorten it ending in 5743
23 through 5753]. Do you see that?
24 A. I do, yes.
25 Q. So in fact they did ask you, meaning the Prosecution, to tell them
1 how many individuals wrote the entries in those pages, did they not?
2 A. Clearly, they did, yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan?
4 MS. SOLJAN: Objection, Your Honour, this actually is not stating
5 exactly what is on this letter. If we could place it on the ELMO perhaps
6 to see how that was asked.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's do that because we don't have it
8 available right now.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: I think we might have to scroll down a little
10 because it's in the middle of the page starting with the first dash mark
11 where it says "how many"?
12 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?
14 MS. SOLJAN: It says is it -- the only thing that is asked there is
15 is it possible to ascertain the following and then there is also a note in
16 handwriting. I just wanted to indicate that for the record. So saying
17 this is not actually to commence work but simply saying general question
18 of is it possible to ascertain this kind of --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now you've made your point. I think we
20 can proceed. The Dr. Barr has the document in front of her. I think
21 she's familiar with it more than anyone else in this courtroom. There is
22 in no point in discussing it further. Please proceed with your question.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I've not discussed it at all, Mr. President just
24 waiting to proceed.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you need to discuss it just proceed
1 with your question.
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. Dr. Barr is this the first correspondence that you received from
4 the Office of the Prosecution requesting that you work on this project?
5 A. No, it wasn't.
6 Q. Okay. And what was it, the second, third, maybe fourth because
7 you're report is actually the first one is generated, what, the 17th or
8 16th of July of 2003, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And this correspondence we see is the 27th of June, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Okay. Well, whether or not as my learned colleague thinks the
13 question was perhaps not as clearly of you, my question to you I thought
14 was quite clear: Did anyone ask you to determine if it was possible how
15 many individuals wrote the entries in those ten pages, did they?
16 A. Clearly they did.
17 Q. Okay?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did -- who else can we go to to answer this question if not a
20 forensic document examiner? Would you think of any other specialty in
21 this field?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Really the only person in order to be able to give us that
24 answer would indeed be a forensic handwriting expert, would it not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And did you come up with an answer for the Prosecution?
2 A. No, because that wasn't what they ultimately asked.
3 Q. Okay. I don't have the ultimate letter for that which they asked.
4 Do you have it? Because I know your correspondence was divided from the
5 left side of the binder and the right side and we agreed that we were only
6 going to take that which was contained on the right side of your file, but
7 I did specifically ask for that correspondence. In any event, not to
8 waste too much of your time we will get it hopefully at the end of the day
10 Now, you list out in during your biography and when you provided
11 us a copy or a synopsis of your company's work four specific tools that
12 are utilised in forensic handwriting analysis, and we talked about some of
13 them yesterday, the EDSA and then the video microscope and I think you
14 also mention in your profile that there is a binocular stereo microscopes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are you familiar with that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then the final tool which I wasn't familiar with was something
19 called a docucentre 3.000?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is that?
22 A. That's what you were talking about before with the ultraviolet and
23 infrared lights.
24 Q. That's just the name of the manufacturer?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Out of the four tools that your company says that it provides and
2 has available to them in order to complete forensic document examination,
3 can you tell us out of those four which did you utilise in your
4 examination in the five reports that you generated?
5 A. I used the binocular microscope.
6 Q. Anything else?
7 A. No.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
10 MR. OSTOJIC: [Microphone not activated]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I don't -- okay. You can
12 now because it has come back.
13 MR. OSTOJIC:
14 Q. Now, Dr. Barr, what I'd like to ask you is to direct your
15 attention to your examination notes, please, for Mr. Jokic that were taken
16 in July of 03. And if you could just summarise for me your technique that
17 you use, as I mention at the beginning you have approximately two and a
18 half to three pages of these notes broken down into two parts. One I
19 think what you do is basically look at the material that was provided for
20 you and make an index of each page with some notations on it; and then
21 secondly what do you is go through what we call the assessment which is in
22 the last half page which is the handwriting comparison, I think you call
23 it, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And do you that for each and every report?
1 A. Generally, yes.
2 Q. Okay. And when wouldn't you?
3 A. Depending on the amount of writing there was. It may not be in
4 exactly the same style, but same basic principles would be followed.
5 Q. Now Comparing that to your tick sheet where on some you have
6 certain symbols on it, when there is no symbol, what does that denote?
7 A. In some of those that's just a specimen writing, so I only put the
8 symbols on the writing that I'm actually comparing.
9 Q. I'm talking about the tick sheet that you had?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And whether you write actually next to the letter A, you write two
12 or more letters in your own handwriting, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And sometimes you put a question mark?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel and witness are kindly asked to make
16 pauses between question and answer. It is impossible to translate at this
17 rate of speed without pauses.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Mr. Ostojic and Dr. Barr. Please do
19 understand that.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: I most definitely.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We have difficulties and sometimes we can have in
22 the background also the interpretation both in French and in B/C/S so it's
23 a problem for them. Go ahead.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.
25 Q. Ma'am, I'd like to just ask you very straightforward and when you
1 have your tick sheet you have the letter that's printed out already on
2 this tick sheet, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then next to any given letter, let's take A for example since
5 it's the first letter, when you write in other letters what does that
7 A. It's when I'm going through and looking at the different character
9 Q. So if you have two letters you have found two different character
10 constructions of that letter A?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if you have more than that it's whatever number you've found,
14 A. It's an aide-memoire, yes.
15 Q. And what does the fact that there is no symbol indicated in the
16 box which corresponds to the letter character, what does that denote, if
18 A. It would depend on which specific tick sheet you were looking at,
19 clearly when I do the specimen writing, I don't make a annotation on it
20 because that's my initial examination of the specimen writing.
21 Q. So you only do it for the questioned writing?
22 A. Generally, yes.
23 Q. Okay. Now, in your first report for Mr. Jokic did you have a
24 specimen writing?
25 A. I did, yes.
1 Q. Now, I couldn't find the tick sheet for that specimen writing but
2 was only able to find the questioned writing. If I understood your notes
3 properly and that is because you have a Q with a exponential indication
4 above it indicating that that's the questioned specimen, would I be right
5 on that?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now, if there was no letter written on your tick sheet which has
8 the questioned specimen meaning no writings by you, does that indicate
9 that you were unable to find that letter, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when there is no symbol attached to that section, what does
12 that indicate again meaning question mark, dash mark, hash mark or?
13 A. Generally it would mean that it was the specimen writing that I
14 was looking at. The specimen writing for Mr. Jokic is -- it's here.
15 Q. I only have the two pages of your tick sheet from Mr. Jokic which
16 has the Q on it which goes through the alphabet and then the next page is
17 just a new numeric 0 through 9, I believe?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Does the peer review or the two people that looked at your work,
20 did they actually go through the specimen writing and the questioned
21 writing or did they merely just go through your notes meaning your tick
22 sheet and your examination notes in order to verify whether or not your
23 opinion is reasonable?
24 A. They would go through the specimen and questioned writings.
25 Q. Would they also creates examination notes and tick sheets?
1 A. No.
2 Q. How would they then do the --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, again you're doing exactly the same
4 thing as before. I mean, please slow down.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Barr is complying more or less but you aren't.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: I was concentrating on that more than the other and
8 I'll focus more on concentrating on both. I apologise.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But please allow a short pause.
10 JUDGE KWON: If I can assist you, take out the headphones, set the
11 channel to the 5 or 6, French or B/C/S and turn up the volume, when it's
12 finished start to answer. Thank you.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Should I keep the head phone on my shoulders?
14 JUDGE KWON: I leave it to you but you always forget to put a
15 pause. Please.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
17 Q. We were discussing briefly how the peer review or quality
18 assurance aspect works, and if they wouldn't keep their notes or create
19 examination notes or tick sheets in particular, how would they be able to
20 verify or later how can anyone verify that in fact they did what they were
21 supposed to do?
22 A. Would you have to take that on trust I'm afraid.
23 Q. Now, is your report that was filed in the case of Jokic, the three
24 reports, did each of them have the signature by this peer review examiner
25 who agreed with your opinions?
1 A. I think so, yes.
2 Q. Okay. I didn't find them but some of the photocopying was rather
3 faint, so that's why I'm asking you. Would you mind just double checking
4 for me?
5 A. Yes I did.
6 Q. Okay. Now, if I may show you or you have it here, you were also
7 given an Annex B from the Office of the Prosecution to some correspondence
8 which seemed to indicate that you were going to review all of the
9 questioned handwriting from what we called the notebook, 377, which is the
10 green book in front of you. Now, did you at any time, were you able to
11 review the entire book in its -- completely?
12 A. In what regard?
13 Q. With regard to the area that they were retaining you to do, and
14 that is to check the handwriting analysis as it may relate to four
15 separate individuals.
16 A. I would have to check what they asked me to do precisely in the
17 first -- the second one. My understanding of this one was that they asked
18 me originally for the four pages, the ten pages, and latterly for specific
19 dates within the book.
20 Q. And what about the subsequent one?
21 A. The subsequent one was for specific dates.
22 Q. I'm looking at Annex B and under paragraph 2, it identifies it as
23 the unofficial duty officer notebook with the ERN number starting with
24 0293-5619 through 0293-5806. And then under A it reads, "July 12th
25 through 17th inclusive dates" and it gives you the ERN number again,
1 0293-5730 through 5777. Compare handwriting on those dates, pages, to
2 known handwriting.
3 A. Can you show me what you're --
4 Q. With the Court's permission if the usher can show her her document
5 that we received yesterday? First because it's highlighted, to my learned
7 A. I don't think I've ever seen that.
8 Q. That was in your folder that I received in this binder yesterday
9 afternoon. And I'm confident that my learned friend the Prosecution who
10 is reading it herself that that's the case, I would think. In fact you
11 had a couple different annexes all identified as Annex B. I can show you
12 those too. Maybe they can help you find it. If I may, Your Honour. I'm
13 handing two separate ones, one Annex B and then the other one I think says
14 handwriting questions. Okay.
15 If you didn't have it, we can clarify that later, if you say you
16 never saw that and it's not part of your file, I'm sure the Prosecution
17 will provide us with an explanation on that. I assume since they produced
18 it to me yesterday that it's something that was in your file because
19 that's what I asked for, your file. My next question is when you write --
20 A. Sorry, can I just say you gave me three sheets. I've seen one of
21 them not the other two.
22 Q. Okay. I was focuses on the first one I gave you.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. I'm trying to assist you by giving you others that the Prosecution
25 offered to me. Which one did you see of the three?
1 A. The one that's not labelled Annex B.
2 Q. Okay. And Annex B of either one or two you've never seen before?
3 A. Well, the two -- no.
4 Q. They are slightly different.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Right?
7 A. They are slightly different, yes.
8 Q. Okay. What I'd like to -- we'll clear that up, thank you for your
9 candour on that. If I can have those back? That would be grateful -- I
10 would be grateful.
11 So it's fair to say that you -- even though you did have all the
12 pages of the logbook, you did not go back to determine which if any were
13 from these known handwritings of any known individual such as Jokic,
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. When you did the Trbic, Nikolic and Strbac material, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. One last question on the tick sheet, on some of them when you look
19 at the 28th of June, 2006, you have actually written notes on the box of
20 the tick sheet as opposed to just symbols. Do you know why you
21 differentiate and sometimes have a written note versus a symbol and what
22 if any is the significance between the two if any?
23 A. It's just a way of -- for me to remember what exactly it is that I
24 considered was significant.
25 Q. And that which, even though yesterday we talked briefly about
1 differences and similarities, there is nothing in your tick sheet which we
2 can at least quantify to show how many symbols you considered to be
3 similar and how many were considered different in any given time, correct?
4 A. No. Because there is no way in a handwriting examination of
5 denoting -- you can't say that, for example, 15 similarities would make it
6 a good match. It's the significance of those and it's difficult -- I tend
7 to try and write those down, which I think I have in my notes, but the
8 tick sheet is there as a way I'm actually comparing the documents.
9 Q. Would that also be true if you utilised more than one of the tools
10 available to you at your place of employment?
11 A. If I could -- the video microscope is simply a means of producing
12 printouts of the handwriting. So it isn't really relevant. The
13 docucentre is the means of determining the number of inks. Again it's not
14 really relevant to a handwriting comparison. And the ESDA is a way of
15 looking at indented impressions so again, it would not be relevant to a
16 handwriting comparison. So for a handwriting comparison what I used would
17 be what I would use in all handwriting comparisons.
18 Q. And that's the only thing you would use, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I noticed this in those ten pages you that reviewed with respect
21 to Mr. Jokic on the photocopies that you have in your binder you had
22 written little notations to yourself on it. For example, you'd write an
23 arrow and then say something to the effect of blue ink. And then you'd
24 write an arrow underneath that and say this was in black ink. Do you
25 remember that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you do that on all material that you usually receive or --
3 A. It depends on what the case is. In this case I want to
4 distinguish the fact that there were different inks on different pages.
5 Q. Did do you that on each and every page?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Why on some and not on others?
8 A. I have no idea. I think it was because it started off it was a
9 different writer in the black ink, so I was trying to distinguish between
10 the two.
11 Q. Thank you, Dr. Barr. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, do you have further questions for
13 Dr. Barr.
14 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President, no further questions
15 for Dr. Barr, thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination, Ms. Soljan?
17 MS. SOLJAN: No, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Barr, you'll be pleased to hear that there are
19 no further questions for you and that you are -- yes, Ms. Soljan has --
20 MS. SOLJAN: My apologies for interrupting, Your Honours, but I
21 believe Mr. Bourgon ended up assigning a little bit of homework for
22 Dr. Barr yesterday, and so we provided her with the original notebook.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: But he has no further questions for her.
24 MS. SOLJAN: I just wanted to note that for her.
25 MR. BOURGON: If she has done the -- indeed, that question, and if
1 she has an answer I would be glad to hear what the answer is.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I go back on what I stated earlier:
3 You've heard the exchange if you can enlighten us on your findings please
4 go ahead, thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously the circumstances in which
6 I did it are less than ideal, but I would say that there is at least some
7 limited evidence that the two pages on the one side were written by the
8 same person who wrote the most -- that entry on the right-hand side of the
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
11 Q. Thank you again, Doctor, and just to confirm what we are talking
12 about in terms of the pages.
13 A. Sorry.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon for that. I was precisely
15 going to ask Dr. Barr to refer us to the documents.
16 MR. BOURGON:
17 Q. So this refers to your report dated -- that's your report dated 29
18 June 2006, and this specific question related to paragraph 6.11, and what
19 you are telling us now is that at page 02935760, there are two lines that
20 according to you do not belong to Mr. Nikolic and there is writing at the
21 top of page 02935761 which also don't belong to Mr. Nikolic but the same
22 person would have written those two parts, to the best of your ability at
23 this point in time?
24 A. Correct, yes.
25 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, doctor. Thank you,
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Now I can confirm that there are no
3 further questions for you and that you're free to go. On behalf of the
4 Tribunal and my colleagues, Judge Kwon, Judge Prost and Judge Stole, I
5 wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony and we all wish
6 you a safe journey back home. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Exhibits?
10 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may Your Honour before we get to the exhibits I
11 would like to know what Annex B is and how we received it yesterday, both
12 those copies, and I tried to invite the Prosecutor to say that even though
13 Dr. Barr was still here. I'd like to get clarification on it how that
14 came to us and just so that the record is clear on that.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Soljan?
16 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, after my learned friend's inquiry
17 yesterday to get the notes, we immediately had them copied. As you may
18 have seen, there are ample notes among those. We made sure that we
19 photocopied everything that was on the right-hand sides as well as to
20 include any writing that was there. What is in the binder that
21 Mr. Ostojic was provided in was what was in her notes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Ostojic?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. Only if I can clarify just to make sure I
24 didn't find this and put it in the binder, that was given to us yesterday
25 by the Prosecutor. I just want to make that clear, whether Dr. Barr
1 remembers that or not is a separate issue.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, documents to tender?
3 Ms. Soljan?
4 MS. SOLJAN: Yes, Your Honour. We would like to tender --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I need to follow you.
6 MS. SOLJAN: We would like to tender the report dated January 2007
7 which is P02844. Dr. Barr's report dated 29 June 2006 which is P02845.
8 The report dated 16 July 2003 which is P02846, the report dated 22 August,
9 2003, which is P02847, the report dated 27 January 2004, which is P02848,
10 Dr. Kathryn Barr's curriculum vitae dated 20 November 2006 which is
11 P02849, the 65 ter number 935 which is the IKM log, the 65 ter number 345,
12 which is the Zvornik Brigade report Bijeljina military Prosecutor dated
13 26 July 1995, and the selection of specimen and questioned document
14 samples which is P02850, as well as PIC 00133 which is the selection of
15 specimen and questioned documents which was marked by the witness on
16 25 June 2007.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Soljan. Any objections from the
18 Defence teams? Mr. Ostojic?
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Just trying to digest it, Your Honour. We do have
20 an objection to the last two, I believe, but also, first I should probably
21 address 65 ter 935, 34 -- and 345. I think this is an attempt by the
22 Prosecution to bring in the entire, for example, on 935, the IKM log,
23 although, the witness didn't testify that she analysed the book in its
24 entirety either the notebook, logbook or the IKM logbook, so just so that
25 we have an understanding until that's verified because we will have
1 witnesses who I think even the Prosecutor share with us a couple of weeks
2 ago who will verify that they have made some additions such as the dates
3 that we know about, that the Court not accept the evidence now but perhaps
4 mark it for identification until we can see exactly who made those entries
5 and why those alterations were made given her testimony today.
6 Secondly, with respect to P02850, my description is rather vague
7 and it just says that it's a selection of specimen and questioned
8 documents samples used as Exhibit P724, and I'm just not able to see where
9 P724 is but I think that it was the Blagojevic -- if it's the ten.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It was in the Blagojevic.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: It's just not listed on the thing. It just has it
12 as brief identification. If it's that, we don't have an objection to
13 Mr. Jokic's ten page sampler going in.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. You don't need to respond, in
15 relation to P02850, but what's your position in relation to the submission
16 of Mr. Ostojic regarding 935 and 345, 65 ter number.
17 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honour the Prosecution agrees it can be marked
18 for identification for the time being.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: So we agreed with that. Any further objections from
20 any of the other Defence teams? So -- problems? No. Okay. So all the
21 documents -- Mr. Ostojic, we are admitting without any reservation P02850
22 because this comes from Blagojevic and it was used extensively in the
23 course of the -- both the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination.
24 So all these documents are admitted except for 65 ter number 935 and 345
25 which for the time being will remain marked for identification.
1 And they will remain so marked until the question as to the use
2 that they can be made use them -- the use that they can be put to, is
3 established, particularly with reference to other testimony that might be
5 All right. Mr. Ostojic, do you wish to tender any documents?
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Not at this time, Your Honour, but we may use some
7 of the documents that we were provided with other witnesses so hopefully
8 through that, we'll produce them to the Court.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Bourgon? Do you wish to
10 tender any documents.
11 MR. BOURGON: No documents, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So that concludes the testimony of Kathryn Barr.
13 And we can proceed with the next witness. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. This witness, Mr. Milosevic,
15 will need a caution, please.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Milosevic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to start
21 giving evidence. Before you do so, our rules require to you make a solemn
22 declaration equivalent to an oath that in the course of your testimony,
23 you will be speaking the truth. Please go ahead, read it out aloud and
24 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: MARKO MILOSEVIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
5 Before we proceed with the examination-in-chief and the
6 cross-examinations that are scheduled, that are planned, I've been asked
7 to draw your attention to a particular provision that we have in our rules
8 which spells out a right that you have as a witness and the limitations to
9 this right.
10 I'm referring to a witness's right not to be -- not to incriminate
11 himself or herself. Basically what this means is that if in the course --
12 please look at me and pay attention to what I'm saying rather than looking
13 at the accused, which you have already saluted on your way in.
14 There may be questions put to you which you feel, if you feel that
15 if answered could incriminate you, then you have a right to bring that to
16 our attention and ask us to exempt you from answering such questions.
17 This right is not an absolute one and because of that, we can decide to
18 grant you such exemption or we can decide to compel you to give your
19 answer. If we compel you to give such answers to so-called incriminatory
20 questions, then you have a further right. Whatever you would state
21 because you have been compelled to state it shall not be used as evidence
22 against you in any subsequent proceedings that could be taken in your
23 regard, except if we are talking of false testimony, which I am sure, I
24 hope, will not be the case. So I just want to know for the time being
25 whether you have understood what I am trying to explain to you in lay
1 terms. Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've understood you perfectly.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Milosevic. Mr. McCloskey will go
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milosevic.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Can you tell us your name for the record, please?
10 A. Marko Milosevic.
11 Q. And can you tell us when you were born?
12 A. 30 March 1964, in the village of Lupoglav in Kladanj municipality.
13 Q. In Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And where did you grow up?
16 A. I grew up in the village of Lupoglav.
17 Q. And did you do your regular JNA service?
18 A. Yes. I did it in 1983 in Sarajevo. My service lasted 12 months
19 and I completed it three months upon the completion of my university
20 education. And I was supposed to do another three months but being a
21 university graduate, I didn't have to do the three months.
22 Q. And what did you graduate in from university?
23 A. I completed the school of economy in Tuzla in 1979, and I --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was in 1989.
25 A. And I gained a degree of engineer of protection at work and
1 environmental protection.
2 Q. And before the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia, what kind
3 of job did you have?
4 A. Before the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia, I did not have
5 a job. I was in Kladanj at -- waiting to be employed at the Bureau for
7 Q. Okay. And did you become a member of the Zvornik Brigade when the
8 war did break out?
9 A. Yes. That was at the beginning of June or the end of May 1992.
10 We fled to Zvornik municipality and there we joined the army of Republika
12 Q. And when you say, "We", do you mean your family?
13 A. No. I meant just myself. My mother remained in the village,
14 trapped there. One of my brothers was in Serbia and the other one was in
16 Q. Okay. So when you say "we," who did you mean?
17 A. I meant just me.
18 Q. Okay. Can you briefly outline for us your various positions once
19 you began in the Zvornik Brigade?
20 A. Towards the end of May or the beginning of June, I can't remember
21 exactly, I joined the army of Republika Srpska. We went to take up the
22 positions in Tijanici and Brezik. That was at the very beginning.
23 Q. What was your position in the beginning? What rank, what job?
24 A. At the beginning, I was just a foot soldier. I was in the
25 trenches on the front line. I did not have any position or rank.
1 Q. Okay. Can you describe to us how you eventually became the job
2 that you had in 1995, which positions you went through?
3 A. Well, the company that I served in within that battalion, we were
4 relocated to the Setici stretch of the line. I was then reassigned to the
5 command of the 1st Battalion, I think it was, and then for a brief period
6 of time, I was the assistant commander for the morale of the battalion.
7 After that, I also performed the duties of the assistant commander for
8 security in the battalion. That was sometime in 1994, I believe. I don't
9 know exactly up to when. I believe I stayed in that position up to
10 September 1994 or thereabouts. After that, I was demobilised, and I was
11 assigned to perform work duties in the Birac factory in Zvornik, and then
12 again towards the end of March or beginning of April 1995, I was mobilised
13 again and sent to the 6th Battalion as the assistant battalion commander.
14 Q. All right. Were you -- and it may be a translation issue, but
15 when you were sent to the 6th Battalion, were you the deputy commander of
16 the 6th Battalion?
17 A. Well, yes. Yes. I was the deputy commander of the 6th Battalion.
18 Q. And who was your commander in 1995 in -- the battalion commander,
19 that is?
20 A. Ostoja Stanisic was the battalion commander.
21 Q. Now, when you were the security officer for the -- a battalion in
22 1994, did you come in contact with Drago Nikolic?
23 A. Yes. We did have contacts. We would usually attend briefings
24 together, when he summoned us to the brigade he would ask us to talk about
25 the security of the line of the battalions, and intelligence data, should
1 we have them about the movement of the enemy forces, and the way the
2 situation looked around the -- around our defence lines.
3 Q. Can you describe the -- your professional relationship with
4 Drago Nikolic?
5 A. I can say that he was very correct. Our dealings were at a very
6 high professional level. Our relationship was very good and correct. And
7 usually they boiled down to the military issues.
8 Q. All right. And were you on duty at the 6th Battalion on July 14th,
10 A. On that day, I was in the battalion. I don't know whether I was
11 on duty or not. I was not the duty operations officer on that day, but
12 I'm sure that I was in the battalion.
13 Q. Okay. Can you tell us when you first received information about
14 visitors to the battalion area that day?
15 A. I don't understand your question, sir.
16 Q. Did you get a -- did you have communication with the duty officer
17 of the brigade that day?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. On a subject you have described for us before, I think in a March
20 or excuse me a September -- March 14th, 2002, interview, and also in your
21 testimony of 4 December 2003, in the Blagojevic trial. So can you tell us
22 about that communication? What was -- what you learned?
23 A. Sometime in the morning, between 10.00 and 12.00, the duty
24 operations officer from the brigade called and I replied, since my
25 commander Ostoja Stanisic was not there at the moment. He had taken a
1 platoon of soldiers, some 20 of them or 30 of them to the brigade, because
2 these soldiers were supposed to be sent to Snagovo, so I replied and the
3 duty operations officer told me that in two hours' time or thereabouts,
4 some imprisoned Muslims would be brought to the elementary school in
5 Petkovci and that they would be accompanied by the security. He only
6 informed me about all that.
7 Q. And who was that duty officer, if you know?
8 A. I don't know. I don't.
9 Q. And where did you receive that phone call?
10 A. At the battalion command, the 6th Battalion command.
11 Q. And whom, if anyone, did you inform of that information that you
12 learned from the duty officer of the brigade?
13 A. My commander, Ostoja Stanisic, returned after two hours. He came
14 back to the battalion. And I informed him about that call.
15 Q. And did you or your commander, Stanisic, do anything relating to
16 that information?
17 A. I just conveyed the information to my commander, Ostoja Stanisic.
18 I don't know whether he did anything in his capacity as a commander.
19 Since my commander was there, I was not duty-bound to pursue that -- the
20 matter any further. When the commander was there, my duties were next to
22 Q. Did you get any more information about those prisoners later on in
23 the day?
24 A. No, nothing. As far as I remember, we did not get any
1 Q. And later in the day, did you receive some instructions from your
3 A. Well, yes. Sometime in the afternoon, he was also called from the
4 brigade or at least that's what he told me, and then he asked me to look
5 for Mr. Beara near the elementary school and to convey a message to
6 him to report to the brigade command, and this is exactly what I did.
7 Q. And do you know where Mr. Stanisic was when he received the
8 information from the duty officer?
9 A. In the battalion.
10 Q. And where were you when Stanisic gave you the instructions to look
11 for Mr. Beara?
12 A. In the battalion.
13 Q. Now, did you --
14 A. In the battalion command.
15 Q. Did you know who Mr. Beara was?
16 A. No. I didn't. That was the first time I heard the name.
17 Q. And how did your commander Stanisic reference Beara? Did he
18 provide a rank or did he say "Mr.", if you remember?
19 A. Well, I really can't remember whether he mentioned any ranks. As
20 far as I can remember, he only said Beara.
21 Q. All right. And so about what time did this happen, as you recall,
22 that you got these instructions?
23 A. It was around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. In any case, it was
24 in the afternoon.
25 Q. Okay. And what did you do when you got those instructions?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. When Stanisic gave him these
2 instructions, where was he supposed to look for Beara?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Can you give us more detail on when Stanisic gave you the
5 instructions, where were you supposed to look for him?
6 A. By the elementary school in Petkovci.
7 Q. Did he give you anything in particular? Outside the school, at
8 the school, some place else? Where were you -- what did he tell you about
9 the location, as far as you can remember?
10 A. Commander Stanisic?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Nothing, just to go to the school, to find Beara and to convey the
13 message to him.
14 Q. Okay. And what did you do?
15 A. I went to the school and since I did not know Beara, I had heard
16 the name for the first time, at the crossroads of the roads leading to the
17 school, I came across Drago Nikolic and since I had been his assistant,
18 i.e. the security officer in his battalion, we had known each other, I
19 asked him whether anybody by the name of Beara was there, and he pointed a
20 person to me. I approached the man. We greeted each other. And I
21 conveyed the message to him and the message was that he should contact the
22 brigade and after that I returned to the battalion, and I briefed my
23 commander, Ostoja Stanisic, as to what had happened. In other words, I
24 was a courier on that occasion, and having done what I did, my mission was
1 Q. All right. And where did you actually see and meet briefly with
2 Mr. Beara and Mr. Drago Nikolic?
3 A. At the crossroads of the main road leading Petkovci where the road
4 forks off to the elementary school. That crossroads is some 70 to 80
5 metres away from the school itself.
6 Q. And besides Drago Nikolic and Mr. Beara, who else was right there
7 with them?
8 A. The military police were there. I didn't know any of them. And
9 as for the other officers, I did not see anybody else down there.
10 Q. Can you tell us roughly how many military police officers were
11 with Mr. Nikolic and Mr. Beara?
12 A. Not many, maybe four or five, as far as I can remember.
13 Q. And did you notice any prisoners in the vicinity?
14 A. No. I didn't notice any prisoners. I only noticed the security
15 around the school.
16 Q. And what do you mean by that? Can you explain what security you
18 A. I noticed troops in uniforms. Some were wearing camouflage
19 uniforms and the others wore olive-drab uniforms, but I could not
20 recognise anybody. I was standing rather far from them.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Milosevic, are you having problems with the
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I'm okay.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. If you have any problems at any time,
25 please let us know.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Now, these few military police officers, how did you know they
3 were military police officers, if you didn't know them?
4 A. Well, they wore camouflage uniforms and they had white belts,
5 which was typical of the military police. The military police usually
6 wore white belts.
7 Q. Could they have been from the Zvornik Brigade?
8 A. No. They were not from the Zvornik Brigades. I didn't know any
9 of them.
10 Q. All right. And do you -- was there a vehicle of any sort with
11 Mr. Nikolic and Mr. Beara that you remember?
12 A. Down on the road, a few lorries and a few buses were parked. I
13 wouldn't be able to tell you the exact number of those vehicles but there
14 were buses and lorries.
15 Q. Were there any people in them?
16 A. No. I didn't see any.
17 Q. How about a car for Mr. Nikolic or Mr. Beara? Did you see any
18 vehicle associated with them?
19 A. Well, I don't know whether there was a car for them, but there was
20 a blue Golf III car there. I don't know whether one could associate that
21 car with them or not but it was there.
22 Q. All right. And did Mr. Beara say anything to you when you
23 reported to him what he needed to do?
24 A. No. He didn't say a thing.
25 Q. And when you went back to the battalion command, did you go by
1 yourself or did anyone come with you?
2 A. I went there by myself, and I returned on my own.
3 Q. And I believe you've said then you reported what you had done as
4 instructed to your commander, Stanisic. And then what happened?
5 A. Yes. I relayed to my commander, Ostoja Stanisic, in fact I
6 informed him that I had relayed the message to Beara and then he in turn
7 conveyed this information to the brigade.
8 Q. And did Beara or Nikolic come by your -- the battalion command
9 post in Petkovci while you were there?
10 A. No, they didn't come.
11 Q. And after you returned to the battalion command post in Petkovci
12 that late afternoon evening, what did you do?
13 A. Well, the question is not completely clear to me. What do you
14 mean what did I do? What are you referring to?
15 Q. Well, did you stay at the battalion command post? Did you go out
16 into the field? Do you remember what you did after getting back there?
17 A. Well, on my return, I was in the battalion command.
18 Q. And did you stay there that evening?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And were you aware what was going on at the new school with the
22 A. No, no. We didn't know anything.
23 Q. Did you do anything about those prisoners being there at that
24 school? Did you go there to try to find out what was going on?
25 A. No, no. I didn't do anything because my commander was there.
1 Q. And did you hear anything from the direction of the school?
2 A. On that day, yeah. On that day, is that what you mean?
3 Q. Yeah, that day, that evening, that night.
4 A. Well, in the late afternoon, there was gunfire coming from the
5 direction of the school, isolated shots and bursts of gunfire, and there
6 was also gunfire in our area in where our companies were. The whole of
7 the afternoon there was shooting at the lines, but we also heard the
8 gunfire coming from the direction of the school.
9 Q. Did you or your commander or anyone at the battalion do anything
10 to look into what the gunfire at the school was all about?
11 A. I didn't do anything. As I already said, my commander was there,
12 and if anyone was supposed to do anything, that was the commander, and I
13 don't recall him doing anything because we had other duties, other things
14 to do, related to our defence area, the situation was very difficult,
15 there was gunfire at the -- there was shooting at the line.
16 Q. Did you hear large buses and trucks going back and forth to the
17 new school and then towards the -- on the road towards Zvornik all night
18 long the night of the 14th of July and the early morning hours of the 15th
19 of July?
20 A. I didn't hear anything. We didn't hear that. It was too far for
21 us to be able to hear anything of the sort.
22 Q. What did you do the morning of the 16th -- excuse me, the 15th,
23 thank you?
24 A. Well in the morning of the 15th of July, early in the morning, my
25 commander, Ostoja Stanisic sent me once again to the defence sector of the
1 4th Company in our battalion because we had received information that
2 during the night, or in the late -- in the early evening, that two of the
3 trenches had been abandoned or, rather, that they had been hit by a hand
4 held launcher and the troops withdrew to the left and to the right of this
5 trench and that left an empty space in our line. So on the orders of my
6 commander, I went there with two or three soldiers to see what had
7 happened and what needed to be done in order to re-establish the line so
8 that we don't have those breaches in the line.
9 Q. About what time in the morning did you go to the line to help fill
10 this gap?
11 A. Well, it may have been at 8.00 in the morning. As soon as I got
12 up I went straight up to the line.
13 Q. Prior to you leaving at 8.00 in the morning, did you learn that
14 many Muslims at that school had been killed and beaten at the school that
16 A. No. I didn't learn anything.
17 Q. Later, did you learn what had happened to the prisoners at the
18 Petkovci school?
19 A. Well, later on, when I was in the Zvornik hospital, because I was
20 wounded on the 16th of July at Parlog, at our line there, and then some
21 people came to visit the wounded soldiers and this is when I heard that
22 those Muslims had been killed.
23 Q. You were wounded -- you were in the hospital -- sorry, about what
24 date did you learn about that the Muslims at the school had been killed?
25 Excuse me. Let me try that again. When did you learn, when did the
1 people come to the hospital and tell you?
2 A. Well, it may have been -- I was wounded on the 16th, so it may
3 have been after the 20th, after the 20th. Or maybe around the 20th. I
4 can't give an exact date but while I was hospitalised and I spent maybe 10
5 days in the hospital.
6 Q. All right. Now, when you provided your taped statement on
7 14 March 2002, did you tell the OTP investigators about meeting briefly
8 with Drago Nikolic and Mr. Beara as you basically have testified today?
9 A. Could you please repeat your question?
10 Q. When you were first interviewed by the OTP, did you tell them that
11 you had met Nikolic and Beara the crossroads, much like --
12 A. Yes, yes, that's what I said that was in Banja Luka. I think it
13 was in March. I don't know the year. I think 2001 or 2002.
14 Q. Yes, 14 March 2002. And also, when you testified on 4 December
15 2003, in the Blagojevic trial, did you say the same thing about meeting
16 briefly with Drago Nikolic and Mr. Beara?
17 A. Yes, yes, yes, that I did.
18 Q. Thank you. I have nothing further, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I have various Defence
20 teams wishing to cross-examine the witness.
21 Mr. Ostojic, are you going first or --
22 MR. OSTOJIC: I am, Your Honour or whatever you please.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I suppose we can have the break now, after
24 which you will have your cross-examination. It will be a 25-minute break.
25 Thank you.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milosevic. I'm going to ask you a number of
7 questions here today in connection with --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Introduce yourself, please.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, I will.
10 Q. In connection with the material that you testified to. My name is
11 John Ostojic and I represent Mr. Ljubisa Beara.
12 Are you ready to proceed?
13 A. Ready.
14 Q. Sir, did you discuss these events of July 14th 1995 with anyone
15 prior to giving your interview with the Office of the Prosecutor on the
16 14th of March 2002?
17 A. No, nobody.
18 Q. Specifically, sir, did you discuss these events on the 14th of
19 July 1995 with an individual by the name of Radenko Basic?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you discuss them with Vlado Josic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you discuss them with your commander, Ostoja Stanisic, at any
25 A. I can't remember. There may have been some conversations after
1 that, but I can't be more precise than that.
2 Q. Well, let's try to be a little more precise. And what I'm asking
3 you, sir, is prior to your interview in March of 2002. Did you discuss
4 these events with any of those individuals?
5 A. Before March -- what year?
6 Q. 2002 which was the date that we established was your first and
7 only interview with the Office of the Prosecutor. Did you have any
8 discussions -- did you have any discussions immediately prior to that
9 interview with any of the individuals I mentioned; namely, Basic, Josic or
10 Stanisic Ostoja?
11 A. I can't remember all the conversations I had after having been
12 discharged from hospital, after having been treated for my wounds. There
13 might have been some conversations about all those events but I can't
14 remember exactly.
15 Q. Sir, just so that I'm clear and I often don't make myself clear, I
16 know you were hospitalised from the 16th of July 1995 for approximately 10
17 days for injuries that you sustained to your legs. I'm talking about five
18 years after that injury. Do you remember discussing these events with
19 Ostoja Stanisic at all?
20 A. I can't remember. I don't remember. After that, I had to do work
21 obligation. I had my own duties. I was a manager in two companies. That
22 was my occupation. He was on another site. So we saw each other rarely,
23 if at all.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the microphone,
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- whether we discussed this matter
2 or not.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters are having some
4 problems with hearing you. So if you could stay near the microphones and
5 speak directly into them, please. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, go ahead.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Sir, we have as the dates of your prior testimony and the only
10 testimony you had given in this Tribunal other than this one today in the
11 Blagojevic case of the 4th of December 2003. I simply ask that you accept
12 that date, although you may not remember it.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Do you remember, sir, if you spoke to
15 Ostoja Stanisic about the fact that you would be testifying in the
16 Blagojevic case on or about December of 2003?
17 A. I can't remember. I wouldn't say that I did. I don't remember
18 having seen him around the time. Had I seen him, I might have told him
19 but I don't remember having seen him.
20 Q. Okay. How about after your testimony in December of 2003, to
21 today's date, did you have an opportunity to speak with Ostoja Stanisic at
23 A. About my testimony, you mean?
24 Q. Correct.
25 A. I've already told you that we saw each other very rarely and if we
1 happened to come across each other in town, this would be only a brief
2 encounter and nothing else, and we never discussed this. I might have
3 told him that I was in The Hague to testify, if I had seen him close to
4 the date thereafter, but I can't remember whether I did.
5 Q. When is the last time that you saw Mr. Ostoja Stanisic?
6 A. The last time I saw Ostoja Stanisic was sometime before his
7 departure, when he was supposed to testify here in The Hague.
8 Q. Had you seen him after that, up until today's date?
9 A. No, never. I didn't. After his return from The Hague, I did not
10 see him.
11 Q. How did you come about to see him immediately prior to his
12 testifying here at The Hague? Who called whom?
13 A. I've already told you that I saw Ostoja several times in town. I
14 bumped into him. And on one such occasion he told me that he had been
15 called to testify before the Tribunal and that was all.
16 Q. You didn't discuss the facts, obviously, correct?
17 A. No, we didn't.
18 Q. Now, if you remember, and I know it happened approximately five or
19 so years ago, your first interview with the Prosecutor in March of 2002,
20 you said, I think, in your direct testimony that that was in Banja Luka,
22 A. Yes. That was in Banja Luka.
23 Q. Do you remember if you drove there or took the bus or how you got
24 to the site where you were being interviewed?
25 A. I came by my company car from the Novitet company.
1 Ostoja Stanisic asked me to give him a lift. He had a daughter in
2 Banja Luka and I had a relative there. I gave him a lift to Banja Luka
3 and back. We went there together and came back together.
4 Q. That was about a two and a half hour drive there and back,
6 A. Well --
7 Q. One way?
8 A. Well, that's the way you can put it, two hours, two and a half
9 hours, yes.
10 Q. Did you talk about the facts of what occurred on July 14th, 1995,
11 during that 2 and a half hour car ride to Banja Luka?
12 A. I can't remember exactly what we talked about, but we certainly
13 discussed other things, the everyday things. We didn't discuss any of the
14 matters that you mention.
15 Q. Do you know if Ostoja Stanisic ever learned from you whether or
16 not you testified in the Blagojevic case on December 4th, 2003?
17 A. Whether I learned?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we receive an invitation to The
20 Hague to testify, you usually know that you have to go. At that time, the
21 police was the institution that delivered.
22 THE INTERPRETER: -- microphone we can hardly hear him.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]-- went through Sarajevo, I don't
24 know. But through Banja Luka I know that the police came to my home and
25 delivered the invitation to go to Banja Luka and testify.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Milosevic, again, we have the same problem.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. OSTOJIC:
4 Q. If you can just -- because your voice is a little low and if you
5 could just make sure to speak into the mike, sir, so the interpreters and
6 translators could hear us that would help us a lot.
7 A. Okay. Well, yes.
8 Q. My question was slightly different, Mr. Milosevic. And that is,
9 do you know if Ostoja Stanisic knew that you had testified in the
10 Blagojevic case?
11 A. If he knew? I can't confirm that he did. He is much better
12 suited to answer that question.
13 Q. As you sit here today under oath, you don't recall ever telling
14 him or informing him that you had testified in the Blagojevic case about
15 the events of the 14th July 1995, correct?
16 A. I don't remember that I told him anything.
17 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Milan Stanisic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was he or what position did he hold in July of 1995?
20 A. At the time he was the assistant commander for logistics in the
21 6th Battalion.
22 Q. And what, if any, relation does he have with Ostoja Stanisic, this
23 Milan Stanisic?
24 A. I don't know but I don't think there is any relations because he's
25 in -- he's from Kladanj, and I really don't think that there is any
2 Q. Did you at any time have any discussions or meetings regarding the
3 events of the 14th July 1995 with Dragan Obrenovic?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know if Dragan Obrenovic ever had any meetings with various
6 battalion commanders in order to discuss the events after the fall of the
7 Srebrenica enclave in July of 1995?
8 A. I don't know anything about that.
9 Q. Sir, I have information from a -- although I'll have to be honest
10 with you, as you usually am, from what I think is an unreliable source,
11 which -- and for the Court's edification, the Prosecution's, I think it's
12 page 11607, May 16th, 2007 transcript but I am purposely not identifying
13 the individual to this person. You talked on your direct examination,
14 sir, about spending the entire evening of the 14th of July -- on page 37,
15 line 11 through 15 today, that you stayed at the battalion command that
16 evening. Do you remember that?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. From this witness or source that we have, he states as follows and
19 I just want to know if you dispute or agree with this on line 15 through
20 19. "The deputy" sir, that would be yourself, then he goes on to say,
21 "The deputy and myself stayed there for a while at the battalion command
22 and then we went back to the defence sector of our battalion. The right
23 wing. The Sapna river area. And we toured the entire line to check out
24 the situation, to verify what the status of the units was, the staffing
25 levels and whether they had enough ammunition."
1 Do you remember on the 14th of July 1995, sir, you went with
2 another individual to the defence sector?
3 A. As far as I can recall, we went to our defence sector, the 6th
4 Battalion's defence sector quite often. I don't remember whether we
5 actually visited this line, whether we toured it, then or not. I really
6 can't remember.
7 Q. When the Prosecutor asked you, you said that you were at the
8 battalion command the entire evening, correct?
9 A. Yes. I was in the battalion command the entire evening. I know
10 that there were many visits to the line on that day so somebody may have
11 went there. I may have been up there for a brief while too, but I think,
12 I believe that I was in the battalion command the entire evening, but if
13 somebody saw me there at the line, that may be true, but it also may be
14 misinformation, because on the 15th, in the morning, I spent the entire
15 morning on the defence line in our defence sector, the defence sector of
16 the 6th Battalion.
17 Q. Now, if I could just turn to another topic so I could have the
18 geography or appreciate a little better -- could you tell me the distance
19 between the Zvornik Brigade command and the battalion command, sir? How
20 far away is that in kilometres? And of course we are talking about 1995.
21 A. In kilometres, yes.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I think maybe about ten kilometres.
24 Q. And how far was the Zvornik Brigade command forward command post
25 from the 6th Battalion command?
1 A. The brigade forward command post was in the village of Kitovnica.
2 I don't know the exact location because I never was up there at the
3 forward command post, but because our forward command post of the
4 6th Battalion was also on the line in our defence sector, in
5 Petrova Strana, and that was maybe three or four kilometres, I think it
6 was not more than four, four and a half, five kilometres. That would be
7 the distance.
8 Q. Just remind us, if you will, where the 6th Battalion command was
9 in July of 1995.
10 A. At the old school in Petkovci.
11 Q. Which is approximately 600 metres or 600 kilometres away from the
12 new school in Petkovci?
13 A. It's about 700 to 800 metres, something like that.
14 Q. Sir, you testified today that you went to the new school in
15 Petkovci on one occasion, correct?
16 A. Yes, once.
17 Q. And at no time had you gone there more than on that one occasion,
19 A. Just once.
20 Q. And can you tell us how long you were at or near the school in
21 Petkovci, the new school, on the 14th of July 1995?
22 A. Well, maybe some ten minutes or it takes you about ten minutes to
23 walk down there. Ten minutes to go there, ten minutes to come back, ten
24 minutes to stay there so it was about half an hour all told to go to the
25 school and back to the battalion command.
1 Q. You mentioned that you had this alleged encounter with Mr. Beara,
2 correct, on the 14th July 1995?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How long did you spend with Mr. Beara conveying this supposed
5 message to him?
6 A. A very short time, a minute or two.
7 Q. And you testified on direct that he -- I'll get you the page
8 number here -- that he said nothing to you, correct?
9 A. He didn't say anything. I merely conveyed the message to him.
10 Q. Now, in your testimony in the Blagojevic trial, when you were
11 asked to describe Mr. Beara, you identified him as being someone 60 years
12 old with grey hair, correct? And that's --
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. And it's a fact, sir, isn't it, that that's all you remember about
15 this supposed encounter with Mr. Beara on the 14th of July 1995, correct?
16 A. Well, it wasn't a supposed encounter. It was an encounter, very
17 brief, two or three minutes, and what I stated in my examination-in-chief,
18 that's it.
19 Q. And you never heard him speak, correct?
20 A. No. I had never seen that man before. I had never even heard
21 about him. That was the first time that I saw him. And I never saw him
22 again, in fact.
23 Q. And it's true, sir, you don't know if this individual that you
24 saw -- do you remember him having a rank on his uniform?
25 A. I can't remember whether he had any rank on his uniform.
1 Q. Now, sir, you spoke a little bit on your direct examination about
2 you leaving and coming to Zvornik. Is it true when according to your
3 testimony in the prior case you state that you were expelled from your
4 home town and then moved as basically a refugee in Zvornik; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you mentioned your mother, that she stayed behind, I think you
8 said, correct?
9 A. Well, not just my mother. There were maybe 50 people left in the
10 village and they were all imprisoned later on and taken to the Stupari
11 camp in Kladanj municipality where they remained until July 1993 when they
12 were exchanged under the auspices of the International Red Cross. That
13 was at Bijeljina.
14 Q. And your mother was held prisoner in Stupari for approximately 15
15 months, correct?
16 A. Yes, something like that.
17 Q. Well, can you tell us who expelled you and your family, sir, and
18 who held your mother prisoner for 15 months in Stupari?
19 A. We were expelled by Muslims. That was in 2002 [as interpreted].
20 And my mother was captured by the Territorial Defence as it was styled at
21 that time, of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They all put them together in one
22 place, in the village, and took them to the Stupari camp in a truck and
23 then they plundered and set fire to the village.
24 Q. I wanted to --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment, Mr. Ostojic because in the
1 transcript page 51, line 16, this is supposed to have happened in 2002.
2 I'm sure that is a mistake. It happened in 1992 or 1993 but certainly not
3 in 2002.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I know the answer.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to correct that. I know the answer too.
6 MR. OSTOJIC:
7 Q. Sir, in giving your answer, I don't know if it was just not heard
8 or you may have misspoken with all due respect, when were you expelled by
9 the Muslims as you state on page 51, line 16? It says in the transcript
10 that that was in 2002. When was that?
11 A. Well, it was in May 1992. 1992. In May.
12 Q. We didn't have it correct, and we don't want there to be a mistake
13 in the record. Thank you for repeating that.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One other thing, Mr. Ostojic, because I don't see in
15 the record - it may have escaped me - but I don't recall having heard the
16 name of this village where his mother and presumably himself used to live.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, I'll put the question to
18 the witness.
19 Q. What village were you and your family expelled from?
20 A. I come from a village of Lupoglav in Kladanj municipality.
21 Q. Sir I want to also talk about the events although not necessarily
22 covered in detail of July 16th 1995, which is two days after the events of
23 this alleged encounter with Mr. Beara. Am I correct, sir, that in the
24 early morning hours of July 16th, you went with the 4th Company to assist
25 them in the trench on the defence sector, correct?
1 A. I went to the defence sector of the 4th Company. I didn't go
2 there with the 4th Company but just with maybe two or three soldiers to
3 check out the situation there where the company was deployed, because the
4 line had been breached, two of the trenches had been abandoned, and this
5 gap had to be closed so that if there were any combat later on, the next
6 day, that we didn't have any problems there, because our troops were under
7 threat if there were any gaps in our defence line.
8 Q. Just so I am clear, why would you leave your 6th Battalion Defence
9 line to go to the 4th Battalion defence line?
10 A. That was not the 4th Battalion. It was our company, 4th Company,
11 that was part of the 6th Battalion. The 4th Battalion was on our left
12 wing. I think it was down there somewhere, Baljkovica or something like
14 Q. Thank you for that clarification. It was still your battalion, it
15 was the 4th Company of your 6th Battalion, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that morning, sir, your 4th Company of the 6th Battalion
18 sustained an attack in essence, correct, in addition to the attack that
19 occurred the day before which you described in your direct where two
20 trenches were actually hit with I think you said mortar fire, and they
21 were abandoned. Now the next day, the same attack occurred, correct? And
22 were you attacked? Yes? No?
23 A. On the 15th of July, I went there on the orders of my commander
24 with two or three soldiers to the positions of the 4th Company because we
25 had been told the evening before that because of the mortar fire, the
1 trenches had been hit by mortar fire, and that I had to check it out. Of
2 course, if there were enough troops, we would have to deploy those troops
3 in those trenches, if we were able to -- if we had been able to fix them
5 Q. And now the 16th, in the early morning hours, there was another
6 heavy attack, correct?
7 A. Yes, yes. That was in the morning, at dawn, because I was to the
8 left where the boundary was with the 4th Battalion, I was in the defence
9 sector of the 4th Company, and then there was a mortar and artillery
10 attack from the Muslim side, from Nezuk or maybe Medvedja, I don't know,
11 but there was a lot of fire, and the trench where I was hit. There were a
12 couple of soldiers there with me. The trench was hit, and then two
13 Republika Srpska army soldiers were killed, one died on the spot and the
14 other one died later on in hospital.
15 Q. And that's Micic and Martinovic, correct?
16 A. No -- yeah, Micic was killed. There were no signs of life. But
17 Martinovic and I, under intense shell fire from the Muslims, we managed to
18 carry him, although he was dead, on our backs to the nearest first aid
19 point, and the other soldier, I think he was also from Tijanici he was in
20 the 4th Company of our battalion, and he was hit in the abdomen, but he
21 managed to get to the first aid station under his own power, but he died
22 en route to the hospital.
23 Q. And although we know that you were injured on the 16th of July
24 1995, you were not injured on this early dawn attack, correct? You were
25 in fact injured later in the day, about 2.30 or so, correct?
1 A. Yes, yes. Around 1400 hours, 1430. I really don't like to
2 revisit that.
3 Q. And I apologise for having to revisit that, I know that it's very
4 painful, but during this second attack if you'll allow me to put this
5 question, your company and battalion came under heavy fire again and you
6 were injured among others and do you remember how many soldiers were
7 killed approximately during this second attack on the 16th of July 1995?
8 A. Well, from the morning and throughout the day, we were under
9 constant artillery fire from the -- by the enemy from Nezuk and other
10 areas. There were shells coming in and also there was some fire coming
11 from our rear because at that time, there were some well-armed Muslim
12 elements, elements of the Muslim army, trying to break through from
13 Srebrenica. So that we were -- we found ourselves in cross-fire and that
14 was the situation at least until the time when I was wounded. That would
15 be around 1400 hours. And I know that many people died. I know that
16 because I was in hospital at that time. I think about 30 people, 35, 40
17 people, were killed that day. That's information that I have. That was
18 at Parlog in combat with the Muslim forces and about 150 troops sustained
19 minor or serious injuries. I'm talking about the Republika Srpska army
20 troops. And then the wounded, including myself were hospitalised in
21 Zvornik, in the Zvornik hospital. And the situation was very, very
22 difficult. That was some intense combat up there.
23 Q. Sir, I forgot to ask you this: How many people from your home
24 town where you were expelled in 1992, how many of those people that you
25 knew came to the Zvornik area after being expelled? Do you know the rough
2 A. Well, I don't know the exact number. I know that there were many
3 of them. I will tell you quite specifically for municipality of Kladanj
4 and my village, Lupoglav which was part of that municipality that all
5 those villages that were part of the municipality, so I'm talking about
6 Serb villages with the Serb population. All those villages, people were
7 expelled, they were all burnt down and they were all looted. According to
8 my information, very few people went back to live where they have their
9 old homes.
10 Q. And I appreciate that. Thank you. But my real question is were
11 any of these former neighbours or friends of yours from your home town
12 that were expelled, were they also members of the 6th Battalion in July of
14 A. Well, as far as the Kladanj municipality is concerned, there were
15 just very few of them, just some individuals. Milisav Martinovic, he was
16 from my home area. We went to school together. But he was in the Zvornik
17 Brigade but he was in the engineers. He was not in my battalion.
18 Q. How about Dragomir Topalovic, do you know him?
19 A. No. Actually I know him. He was in the command of the
20 6th Battalion but he's not from my area.
21 Q. Sir, what I'd like to go back now is to the 14th July 1995 day and
22 ultimately the purported meeting you had with Mr. Beara. Am I correct in
23 understanding your testimony that you received a phone call from the
24 Zvornik command Brigade and the reason you received this phone call is
25 because your commander, Ostoja Stanisic, was taking 20 to 30 soldiers to
1 the Zvornik Brigade, correct? Because they needed some assistance in the
2 Snagovo or Crni Vrh area, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Well, when you -- when Ostoja Stanisic came back to the battalion
5 command, where you were at, did he know already that the Zvornik Brigade
6 had called you and told you that prisoners would be held in the new
7 Petkovci school?
8 A. As far as I know, he left the brigade to go to the line, to the
9 defence zone of our battalion, and then he went back to the 6th Battalion
10 command and that's where I conveyed to him that we had been informed from
11 the brigade that some Muslims would come and that they would be put in the
12 school. So I told him that.
13 Q. So at the time you told him that, based on just your answer now,
14 you told him that they would be coming, they hadn't arrived yet, correct?
15 A. I don't know whether they had already arrived by that time or not.
16 I simply told him that we had received notification about their arrival.
17 But I don't know whether they had arrived by the time that he got there.
18 Q. In your battalion -- 6th Battalion command, did you have a duty
19 officer on the 14th of July 1995 present?
20 A. I think yes, there should be one, but I don't know who it was.
21 Q. I agree with you there should be one. During the course of 1995,
22 specifically July, if you will, do you remember if that duty officer ever
23 kept a logbook or a notebook to record any incoming or outgoing messages
24 that he should have conveyed?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Who other than the duty officer of the 6th Battalion in the
2 command is responsible to maintain a logbook or notebook of incoming and
3 outgoing messages or orders?
4 A. I don't know who that might be. Usually that would be the duty
5 officer. If he gets a call, he makes a record of all the calls he
6 received on a certain date. Now, I can't tell you whether this person
7 really kept records meticulously or not. Maybe he just conveyed messages
9 Q. But you, sir, as a deputy commander, don't you think it falls
10 within your responsibility to make sure that those types of things are
11 done by your subordinates on a regular and continuous basis?
12 A. Well, the battalion commander should probably check whether this
13 is done. It should be done. But I myself absolutely didn't do anything
14 to control it. As I already told you, the commander told him that I
15 should just make sure that the communications functioned within the
16 battalion, that we were able to communicate with our companies, and the
17 brigade. That was the only thing that I had to do, to make sure that it
18 does. That's all I remember about my responsibility.
19 Q. And I know as limited as they were, sir, as deputy commander,
20 isn't it true, though that if the commander Ostoja Stanisic was away, it
21 was your responsibility to make sure that the subordinate soldiers would
22 follow rules and procedures such as inputting in a logbook or notebook the
23 messages they may have received, isn't that true?
24 A. Well, I can't really give you a very accurate answer to your
25 question. The fact was that I was the deputy commander of this battalion,
1 but you have to understand that I was just an ordinary soldier. I didn't
2 have any rank. And I really didn't -- I had not encountered the rules of
3 service or command manuals before, and I didn't read them at the time, to
4 know exactly what my responsibilities and duties were. I was there to
5 assist the commander whenever I felt that he needed it, and to be there in
6 his absence, but I didn't read the rules so I really can't give you an
7 accurate answer.
8 Q. Thank you. Sir, do you remember, if you were present, whether
9 Ostoja Stanisic called the Zvornik Brigade command to ask them about these
10 prisoners at the new school in Petkovci?
11 A. I don't remember him calling or anything else.
12 Q. Do you remember, sir, whether Ostoja Stanisic at any time had a
13 conversation with the Zvornik Brigade command regarding the events as
14 you've described them of July 14th, 1995?
15 A. I don't know anything about that. I don't remember anything like
16 that happening. He may have talked to them but not while I was there. I
17 don't remember him doing that while I was there.
18 Q. And that's what I'm asking you. Do you remember ever being
19 present when he did that, and you do not, correct?
20 A. On the 14th, I don't remember that he had any conversation with
21 the brigade command.
22 Q. Okay. How about the conversation where purportedly Mr. Ostoja
23 Stanisic was asked to find Mr. Beara near or around the new school in
24 Petkovci, near the crossroads? Were you present when Ostoja Stanisic
25 purportedly received this phone call?
1 A. In the battalion, when Stanisic received this call, he merely told
2 him that I should go down there. Now, whether I was there that very
3 minute, I don't know. I may have left the room or not. I don't remember.
4 Q. That's all I'm asking is for your recollection. Am I correct, sir
5 that you don't remember that Ostoja Stanisic received this phone call from
6 the Zvornik Brigade, correct?
7 A. As far as I can remember, he received the call, he sent me there,
8 on the basis of the fact that he had received a call. I don't know
9 whether I was next to him or whether I was outside at that moment. He
10 told me that he had received the call.
11 Q. And that's all I want to clarify. Then you went purportedly to
12 the Petkovci crossroads and you came back a half hour or so later, and can
13 you just verify for me that you don't recall also, after telling,
14 supposedly, Mr. Stanisic that you conveyed the message to Mr. Beara, you
15 were not present when Mr. Stanisic called the Zvornik Brigade to inform
16 them that the message was conveyed, in fact, right?
17 A. Well, I conveyed the message to my commander, Ostoja Stanisic. He
18 called the brigade. He conveyed that message in turn. And I was there.
19 I heard him say that the message had been conveyed.
20 Q. And I have to clarify it, I apologise if I'm being somewhat
21 repetitive. Are you telling me, sir, today, that you were actually
22 present when Ostoja Stanisic called the Zvornik Brigade and told them that
23 you had found Mr. Beara and the message was conveyed that Mr. Beara should
24 contact the Zvornik Brigade command? You were there when Ostoja picked up
25 the phone and made that call; is that what you're telling us?
1 A. These are really very minute details. I conveyed the message to
2 Ostoja that I had found Beara. That was my part of the job. And he was
3 the one who was supposed to call the brigade and tell them that the
4 message had been conveyed. And he actually did it. I don't know whether
5 he told me that he had done that or whether I was there when he did that.
6 In any case, I know that the brigade was informed about that.
7 Q. Did the Prosecutor ever tell you that there is no record from the
8 Zvornik Brigade command indicating that a "message was conveyed to
9 Mr. Beara on the 14th of July 1995"?
10 A. Please repeat the question.
11 Q. Did the Prosecutor ever tell you that there was no record in the
12 Zvornik Brigade logbook or notebook or even the IKM notebook indicating
13 that Ostoja Stanisic called them to supposedly tell them that a message
14 was conveyed to Mr. Beara?
15 A. No, no. They didn't tell me that during my interview.
16 Q. As the 6th Battalion deputy commander, do you know why is it that
17 neither in the 6th Battalion logbooks and duty books as well as in the
18 Zvornik Brigade logbook and notebook and the IKM, there is no record
19 whatsoever of there being any indication that there was this message
20 supposedly conveyed by Ostoja Stanisic?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment before you answer the question,
22 Mr. McCloskey?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: That assumes facts not in evidence. We have no
24 record of any battalion logbooks, unless Mr. Ostojic has them.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I think the evidence of the witness and other
2 6th Battalion members and the protocol that's used established that they
3 did maintain logbooks or else they wouldn't have a duty officer present
4 for those purposes as he testified. So I don't have the logbooks. I was
5 hoping that the Prosecution had those logbooks or maybe they can ask some
6 of their witnesses if they hope to call in the next weeks.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've been looking for battalion logbooks for many
9 years. We don't have any. Don't expect to get any. But I'm always open
10 for them if anyone wants to --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless anyone else has any of these notebooks, the
12 purpose of your question disappears.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll try to restate the question without including
14 the battalion logbooks, Your Honour, if I may.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
16 MR. OSTOJIC:
17 Q. As a 6th Battalion deputy commander, sir, do you know why is it
18 that in none of the logbooks from the Zvornik Brigade or notebooks or IKM
19 books, there is any evidence to suggest that Ostoja Stanisic called the
20 Zvornik Brigade and supposedly informed them that this message was
21 conveyed to Mr. Beara?
22 A. A very strange question. Whoever was on duty in the brigade, I'm
23 sure that they did it, maybe they didn't. I can't go into that.
24 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that you and Ostoja Stanisic - and you seem
25 prepared for this which I'm glad you are - that you and Ostoja Stanisic
1 made up this story about Mr. Beara because there was involvement of the
2 6th Battalion and members of that battalion in guarding the prisoners at
3 the new school in Petkovci. Isn't that correct?
4 A. I claim with full responsibility that what you're saying is
5 absolutely incorrect, that you're being very cynical. This is making me a
6 bit sick. Your question and what you are alleging, that we made this up
7 is totally wrong, and I stand by my statement fully.
8 Q. Thank you. And I'm not being cynical, sir. I'm trying to be as
9 forthright with you as possible. I further suggest to you, sir --
10 A. That was my impression when I heard your question. You -- you
11 were accusing me, and this is a very grave accusation. I'm totally
12 against it. I don't agree with it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Mr. Milosevic, you just answer questions.
14 Otherwise, if you want to make comments, you address the Trial Chamber,
15 and please do not engage into any direct exchange with any of the lawyers
16 here. With lawyers, you just answer the questions that are put to you.
17 You are not happy with anything, you address the Trial Chamber and we will
18 address the matter. Okay?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Sir, I also suggest to you that you and Ostoja Stanisic concocted
22 this story about Mr. Beara being at the crossroads near the new school in
23 Petkovci during your trip or immediately prior to your interview in March
24 of 2002 and that you spent two and a half hours with Mr. Stanisic in the
25 car and specifically prior to when you received the subpoena for the
1 interview, you met with Mr. Stanisic to get your stories straight. Isn't
2 that right?
3 A. You're wrong, and I say that with full responsibility. You are
4 not right.
5 Q. And I also suggest to you, sir, from other witnesses, such as
6 Radenko Baskic [phoen] and Dragomir Topalovic, that in fact members of the
7 6th Battalion were indeed assisting in providing some security at the new
8 school of the Muslims -- Muslim prisoners in July of 1995. You disagree
9 with that as well?
10 A. I wouldn't know that.
11 Q. Sir, what I'm telling you is that the 6th Battalion, having
12 suffered both on the 15th and 16th, attacks from the Muslims, that you and
13 your commander, sir, sent troops from and soldiers from the 6th Battalion
14 to the school in order to commit the crimes that the Prosecution has
15 alleged has occurred. Would that be accurate as well?
16 A. We did not send anybody, and it is absolutely not correct.
17 Q. Did you, sir, send any members of your 6th Battalion, you or your
18 commander, Ostoja Stanisic, did you send any of them after the events
19 unfolded in July of 1995, to clean up the new school?
20 A. I did not send anybody personally.
21 Q. How about your commander? He did, didn't he?
22 A. Yes, he did. I didn't.
23 Q. And how do you know that, sir?
24 A. The commander told me, when I was wounded in the hospital, that he
25 had sent people to clean things up and that the villagers allegedly had
1 asked for this to be done. That was all.
2 Q. I'm saying that Ostoja Stanisic sent soldiers from the
3 6th Battalion, with trucks, to do the cleanup; would that be correct or
5 A. Commander Ostoja told me that when I was in hospital, that he had
6 sent them there. I wasn't there and I did not see that with my own two
8 Q. Do you know of any former 6th Battalion soldier, sir, who was
9 involved in the cleanup of the new school in Petkovci from July of 1995?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. Sir, I further suggest to you that because -- maybe I should
12 strike that and start over. Slavisa Marjanovic was the commander of the
13 5th Company of the 6th Battalion, correct?
14 A. My battalion had four companies, not five, and I believe that he
15 was a member of the 2nd Company but I'm not sure. Slavisa Marjanovic, was
16 it? Is that what you said?
17 Q. That was the name. And I recognise you had four companies, but
18 don't you remember, sir, that immediately prior to the fall of the
19 enclave, Srebrenica, that a fifth company was created from your four
20 companies of the 6th Battalion and Slavisa Marjanovic was placed as
21 commander of this new company that went to Srebrenica prior to July 11th
22 1995? Correct?
23 A. One platoon from our battalion did go to the brigade in order to
24 be sent to Srebrenica, and commander of that platoon was
25 Slavisa Marjanovic. I don't know which company had been formed in the
1 brigade, whether that was the 5th Company or some other. I really
2 wouldn't be able to tell you that.
3 Q. And did you learn, sir, prior to July 14th, 1995, that
4 Slavisa Marjanovic was killed during the action at Srebrenica a few days
6 A. Yes. We learned that the platoon that had been sent to Srebrenica
7 as part of some company, with Slavisa Marjanovic, that Slavisa Marjanovic
8 had got killed there and the troops that had returned from Srebrenica told
9 us that. They were members of our battalion. Actually, they told us at
10 that moment that he had gone missing. Subsequently it was found out that
11 he had been found dead in the Srebrenica sector.
12 Q. And how many other soldiers from your battalion who went to
13 Srebrenica were killed or died in July of 1995, during the action in
15 A. As far as I know, only Slavisa Marjanovic got killed from our
17 Q. Now, sir, I suggest to you further that you knew this information
18 prior to July 14th 1995, as did your battalion commander, and given that
19 your defence lines were being attacked on a regular basis, that the 6th
20 Battalion, in light of the fact that there were these deaths or killings
21 of Slavisa Marjanovic, the gentleman Micic that we mentioned, the other
22 gentleman that it says, that results that you and your soldiers from the
23 6th Battalion went to the new school in Petkovci. Would I be correct?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And am I correct, sir, that no one from your battalion went to the
1 school, as far as you know, on the 14th of July 1995, other than yourself?
2 A. As far as I know, nobody. As far as I know.
3 Q. And can you share with us, sir, with whom, if anyone, other than
4 Ostoja Stanisic, did you share this information that you met with
5 Ljubisa Beara near -- I forget how many metres you said -- from the school
6 area? With who else did you share that information?
7 A. Just Ostoja Stanisic, my commander. If somebody had been present
8 at the command from the ranks of the logistics, they might have heard that
9 but the only person that I actually spoke directly to was Stanisic, my
11 Q. Now, let me just develop or understand your time line. You get a
12 call and I know it's rather broad, from 10 to 12 from the Zvornik Brigade
13 that prisoners would be arriving at the new school and then
14 Ostoja Stanisic is not there but he arrives approximately two or so hours
15 later back to the battalion command, correct?
16 A. Yes. I've already told you that.
17 Q. And thank you. I'm just laying the foundation. I appreciate that
18 very much. How soon after Ostoja Stanisic's return did this second
19 purported call from the Zvornik Brigade command arrive?
20 A. Maybe three hours or so.
21 Q. Just so that I'm clear, did you say three hours or 3.00?
22 A. 1500 hours, 3.00 in the afternoon.
23 Q. And immediately thereafter, it's your testimony that you went to
24 the new school and that's where you saw a Mr. Beara for that two or three
25 minutes, as you claim, correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And am I correct, sir, that you've had no contact whatsoever with
3 Mr. Beara after that purported date, 14th July, 1995, correct?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: He's answered that question already.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: If he has, that's fine, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Milosevic, I'm suggesting to you, sir, that you and
7 Ostoja Stanisic are fabricating this story about seeing Mr. Beara in
8 July 14th, 1995, and that you started fabricating this story after
9 Ostoja Stanisic met with Dragan Obrenovic to try to shift the
10 responsibility of your battalion and Mr. Obrenovic to others. I'd be
11 correct in that, wouldn't I, sir?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: He's answered that question already. You've put it
13 to him more than once and he's categorically disagreed with you that this
14 is all made up.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I -- I've added a function with Dragan Obrenovic,
16 Your Honour, but --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: If he's told you already that what you are
18 suggesting is not true, well --
19 MR. OSTOJIC: That's fine.
20 Q. Do you remember, sir, on the 14th of July 1995, whether
21 Ostoja Stanisic also with you stayed the entire evening at the battalion
23 A. The 14th? We were at the battalion command.
24 Q. You and him together that whole evening, after 3.00 or so,
1 A. I was at the battalion command and he was with me down there.
2 Q. And in the morning of the 15th were you asked to leave to go to
3 the 4th Company to help with the attack that occurred on their trenches,
5 A. Yes. In the morning of that day, which is the 15th, I went to the
6 4th Company. That was early in the morning.
7 Q. Did Ostoja Stanisic accompany you to go to the 4th Company or did
8 he stay behind with the battalion, 6th Battalion command?
9 A. When I left for the 4th Company sector, the commander stayed back
10 in the battalion. I went up there on my own, he stayed.
11 Q. How about the 16th? Did he ever come to the defence lines or did
12 he stay back?
13 A. On the 15th, in the evening, i.e. on the 16th around 1.00, both of
14 us went to the line for the -- to the defence area at the forward command
15 post. We spent the entire day there. While I was in the sector of the
16 4th Company, he was at the forward command post as the commander. I don't
17 know who else was there with him.
18 Q. Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions for this
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
21 I have on -- next on my list, the Nikolic Defence team.
22 Madam Nikolic, please go ahead and introduce yourself to the witness.
23 Thank you.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good
25 afternoon, Your Honours.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Milosevic.
3 A. Good afternoon?
4 Q. My name is Jelena Nikolic and I represent Mr. Drago Nikolic in
5 these proceedings. I have a few questions for you that arise from your
6 earlier testimony. First of all about the relationship that you had in
7 the course of 1994 with Mr. Drago Nikolic. Earlier today you testified
8 that you had been the assistant commander of the 6th Battalion and during
9 1993 and 1994 and that you were in charge of security?
10 A. Yes. I've already said that I was the assistant commander for
11 security up to, I believe, September 2004 [as interpetered] when I was
12 assigned to work obligation.
13 Q. I suppose that you mean 1994?
14 A. Yes, 1994. Yes. I apologise.
15 Q. As you performed these duties, you had contacts with the chief of
16 security of the Zvornik Brigade, didn't you?
17 A. Yes, we did have contacts. I had contacts with Drago Nikolic.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a problem, Mr. Sarapa?
19 MR. SARAPA: I believe there is a mistake in the record. It says
20 September of 2004.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That is obviously a mistake. And it was
22 corrected in lines 13 and 14. So in the meantime, Mr. Sarapa, as it is, I
23 can't see you where you're sitting. First because of the column and
24 secondly because Ms. Nikolic is also standing so if you could move a
25 little bit further to your right, I would be able to see you better.
1 Thank you. Go ahead, Madam Nikolic.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. The contacts that you had with the chief for security of the
4 Zvornik Brigade, they were professional contacts, weren't they?
5 A. Yes, they were.
6 Q. You, as the assistant for security of the battalion, who did you
7 receive orders from?
8 A. From my battalion commander.
9 Q. Drago Nikolic, was he ever in a position to issue orders to either
10 you or your commander?
11 A. I will say that Drago Nikolic informed the commander if we were
12 required to attend a meeting as assistants for security and then the
13 commander would decide whether to send us there or not, whether to let us
14 go or not. In other words, it was a matter of them agreeing on that
15 rather than the matter of Drago Nikolic issuing orders to my commander.
16 Q. Thank you. To my learned friend's question you said that one of
17 your duties was to maintain communications in the battalion?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I would now like to ask you what types of communications did you
20 have between your battalion and the brigade?
21 A. We had three types of communication. One was the civilian land
22 line, the other was the wire line, and the third one was the radio line,
23 the radiophonic line.
24 Q. When you say wire line, does this mean an induction telephone line
25 or a military telephone?
1 A. Yes, it was a military induction telephone.
2 Q. And if I understood your interviews and testimony well, then a
3 military line is the one you most often used for your communication; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, we used that line most often.
6 Q. And you only switched on the radio to control its functioning?
7 A. Yes, it was done very rarely, only from time to time.
8 Q. In communication with the companies, did you also use the
9 induction military line most often, more often than anything else?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Because that line was the most secure line?
12 A. Yes. It was the most secure line and that's why we used it most
14 Q. The companies also had a RUP 12 radio set, but you didn't use it
15 for communication?
16 A. We did but only very rarely.
17 Q. Now I would kindly ask you to tell me something about the morning
18 call on the 14th of July 1992, the call that you received in the command
19 of your battalion?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The date is 14th July
22 Q. The call was about the arrival of prisoners at the new school in
23 Petkovci. You received that call via telephone, if I understood you well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On the secure line?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It was the wire military line?
3 A. Yes, it was.
4 Q. You were told on that occasion that the prisoners would be brought
5 to Petkovci, to the new school, within approximately two hours from that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the call took place sometime between 10.00 and 12.00 if I'm
9 not mistaken on the 14th of July 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On that occasion, nobody asked you to inform any members of the
12 battalion about that call or any of the company commanders or their
13 assistants or deputies?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Nobody asked you on that occasion to provide soldiers who might
16 provide security for these prisoners because you were informed that the
17 security would be on its way together with the prisoners on their way to
18 the school in Petkovci?
19 A. That's all correct.
20 Q. Also nobody asked you to secure lorries or any other vehicles for
21 these prisoners?
22 A. Nobody asked me to do that.
23 Q. Nobody asked you to provide a firing squad to execute these
24 people; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is correct. Nobody did.
1 Q. Nobody ever put any pressure on that -- to that effect during that
2 telephone conversation?
3 A. Absolutely not.
4 Q. Also, nobody informed you about the destiny of these people, i.e.
5 that they would be executed eventually?
6 A. Nobody did.
7 Q. If I understand you well, the information that you received from
8 the brigade command was just to inform the battalion commander that a
9 certain number of people was on their way, accompanied by armed soldiers
10 that belonged to other units, just by way of warning, not to engage your
11 battalion in any way?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this prisoner arrival took you by surprise in a way?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This event was not planned in any way previously. This was not
16 something that you didn't know -- this is something that you didn't have
17 any information before the 14th of July, before this call from the
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Just a few more questions regarding the event at the crossroads on
21 the road in front of the new school in Petkovci, on the same day, the
22 14th of July, but in the afternoon. You received a message from your
23 commander instructing you to go to a certain place to convey another
24 message to an officer?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you don't know whether at that time the commander had spoken
2 to the duty officer or anyone else because you had not been present during
3 that conversation?
4 A. I don't know whether it was a duty officer or who it was, but I
5 know that somebody from the command called.
6 Q. When you got there at the crossroads at the new school at around
7 1600 hours you said that you saw two or three military police officers?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Or a few military officers who were not from the Zvornik Brigade?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know the military police from Zvornik Brigade?
12 A. Well, not all of them, but I did know those who would come to our
13 battalion or those that I worked with when I was the security assistant
14 but that was a very narrow circle of people.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Milosevic and Madam Nikolic, we are getting back
16 to the same problems with the interpreters. I think they are finding it
17 difficult to catch up with you at the rate, at the speed you are
18 conducting this cross-examination. So what I suggest is the following:
19 Before -- between question and answer, you each allow a very short pause
20 which would allow -- which would give time to the interpreters to
21 translate to us into English and French, because I don't know if you know
22 that that is happening. While you speak in Serbian, they are translating
23 us -- translating to us in English, and if you overlap, they won't be able
24 to translate everything. It's important for us to hear every single word
25 that you are saying. Okay. Yes, Madam Nikolic.
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. And I
2 apologise to the interpreters.
3 Q. Mr. Milosevic, let me ask you this: Were there any troops from
4 the 6th Battalion there in front of the school?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you at any time ask Drago Nikolic what was happening and what
7 was actually going on in front of this school in Petkovci?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. You merely went to the crossroads, you conveyed the message, and
10 you went back?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I would now like the witness to be shown Defence Exhibit 3D152.
13 It's an aerial photograph of Petkovci, Mr. Milosevic, and what I would
14 like to ask you is to have a look at it and for us to try to locate that
15 spot at the crossroads where you had this brief encounter with the
16 officers, as you testified earlier today.
17 Mr. Milosevic, do you see in front of you on the screen this
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could it please be zoomed in as much
21 as possible.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is actually not very easy to
23 discern things.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we scroll down a little bit?
25 I think that's fine. Could we scroll down just a little bit and zoom in,
1 if it's possible at all? A little bit further down. I do apologise, no,
2 no, scroll up, please. I apologise. Just a little bit. Yeah, now it's
3 fine. Now it's fine. Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Milosevic, do you see this photograph in front of you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you recognise on this aerial photograph Petkovci?
7 A. I will try.
8 Q. This dark shadow, what would that be?
9 A. The school.
10 Q. So were you able to recognise it as the school?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Can you now indicate to us where the road is, the main road, the
13 road that you took?
14 A. Well, here it is. [Marks]
15 Q. And the crossroads where you encountered Mr. Beara and
16 Mr. Nikolic?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Fine. Could you now please show us the road that would lead to
19 the school and if you can do it with a broken line?
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And if you could perhaps mark the plateau or rather the area in
22 front of the school with an X?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Would you be so kind as to put the letters X, Y where this little
25 circle is?
1 A. There, where the plateau in front of the school is?
2 Q. Yes, no, no. Actually at the crossroads where you put the small
4 A. [Marks] And the Y, yes, here.
5 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you what is the distance
6 between this area where you put the XY mark and the building, the school
7 building itself?
8 A. I think maybe 70 to 80 metres. Not more than that.
9 Q. And is the school on the high ground?
10 A. Yes. It's a very small hill.
11 Q. And from this road, and from this spot on the crossroads, could
12 you see the plateau at the school?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Milosevic, I would like to ask you if you could
15 just put your name, your full name, and today's date here on this
16 photograph, if you can.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Just one more detail, Mr. Milosevic. Could you please mark the
19 building where your command, the 6th Battalion command, was, in other
20 words that's the old school building, if you can mark it on this
21 photograph or perhaps we can scroll it up or down, if necessary?
22 A. Well, it needs to be scrolled.
23 Q. No, you can't see it here. Could we scroll the photograph down a
24 little bit so that we see whether Mr. Milosevic can recognise this?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: It can't be done now, Ms. Nikolic. We can save
1 this, get the same photo, and then focus on the area that you are
2 interested in, and we ask the witness to mark that one too. All right?
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
4 assistance. I think that would be the right way to do it. So if we can
5 then save this photograph now and then get the new one, unmarked, that
6 would be 3D152, and then the witness would be able to mark the command and
7 the old school in Petkovci.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Milosevic, if you look at the screen, we see the same
11 photograph. Now it's unmarked.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I would like to ask you now, in fact I would like to ask for the
14 photograph to be scrolled down. Fine. Do you now see on this photograph
15 the old school building where the command of the 6th Battalion was?
16 A. Well, I'm not quite sure. I know that it was on the right-hand
18 Q. Perhaps if we were to scroll down a little bit?
19 A. It was down below the road.
20 Q. Can you see it now?
21 A. I think I should be able to mark it now. [Marks] Yes, yes. I
22 can see it.
23 Q. Could you now draw a line, the route that you took as you went to
24 that spot where you conveyed the message on the 14th of July?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Perhaps a little bit further down -- now it's not possible. But
2 could we then save this photograph? I would like to ask to you put a date
3 in the right-hand corner on the screen and your name.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you. Well, in fact, it's the 26th today.
6 A. Well, I forgot the date.
7 Q. I think that we have the same date on the previous photograph as
8 the 25th, so it should also be corrected to stand, to show 26th of June
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milosevic, and thank you, Your Honours, I have no
11 further questions.
12 A. You're welcome.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. We've got seven minutes to
14 the break. Let me make a reassessment of the position. The Borovcanin
15 team, are you going to cross-examine this witness?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will have no
17 questions for this witness.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The Gvero Defence team?
19 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. The Popovic Defence team?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, I would just like to consult my
22 client about --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The Pandurevic Defence team?
24 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] It will be very brief, but I would
25 like to ask for a break before I start my cross-examination. I would
1 like to take this opportunity to consult my client because that might cut
2 short my cross-examination.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. By all means, both of you, both Mr. Zivanovic
4 and you, Mr. Sarapa. Madam Fauveau?
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions
6 for this witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically that means that we'll give the
8 opportunity to Mr. Zivanovic and Mr. Sarapa to consult with their
9 respective clients and then we will resume in 25 minutes from now. And if
10 we have no further questions for the witness, we adjourn -- we start with
11 the next one. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
12 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President, can I ask for a break of
13 30 minutes? Not 25. I'm supposed to meet with the next witness during
14 this break and there seems to be a problem in to which room I'll be able
15 to meet with the witness. Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. Absolutely no problem, Mr. Bourgon. It
17 will be a 30 minute break then, thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa? Are you cross-examining this
21 witness? Or --
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll go first.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I --
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll go first.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You go first? All right. Go ahead.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Milosevic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. I will not be asking you about those two days that my colleagues
5 and my learned colleague from the Prosecution have asked you about. I
6 will be asking you about some general issues. First of all, could you
7 please tell me whether you were a duty officer in the battalion at any
9 A. I, whether I was?
10 Q. Generally, in general terms, not only on those two days but did
11 you ever do that?
12 A. Well, I don't recall ever recall being a duty officer.
13 Q. And as the assistant commander of the battalion, do you know what
14 a duty officer does in the battalion, what his duties are?
15 A. Well, the duty officer in the battalion received information from
16 the brigade and from the companies, if they needed anything they talked to
17 him and then he relayed all that to the battalion commander.
18 Q. And he received this information via communications equipment?
19 A. Yes, via communications equipment.
20 Q. You told us that you mostly used those induction telephones. Now
21 I wanted to ask you whether the duty officer ever received any telegrams
22 over the phone?
23 A. Well, I think he did.
24 Q. Do you know who in the battalion had the encryption documents?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. When we are talking about telegrams, do you mean encrypted
2 telegrams or telegrams in general?
3 A. Well, it's not quite clear to me.
4 Q. So when you said that the duty officer would sometimes receive
5 telegrams, as far as you know, were you referring to encrypted telegrams?
6 A. Yes. I assume so.
7 Q. But you don't know. Do you know who had the duty to decode the
9 A. Well, probably the decoder, the person who knew how to decode
10 those telegrams, who had the tables used to decode telegrams. I don't
12 Q. Just one more question: Do you know where those telegrams that
13 were received in such a form, encrypted and later decoded, who kept them?
14 Where were they kept?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. You did not?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. As the deputy commander, you did not?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Sarapa?
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
22 Q. Mr. Milosevic, my name is Djordje Sarapa. I have just a few
23 questions for you and then you will be finished. You spoke about the
24 fighting that lasted well into the 16th and you mentioned some figures for
25 the casualties, the dead and the wounded. Can we agree with the fact that
1 the figures that you talk about are figures that you heard about?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Is it true that you did not have any access to official numbers
4 for the casualties?
5 A. Yes. I did not.
6 Q. So we could conclude that as regards the numbers of casualties,
7 dead and the wounded, what you told us does not necessarily correspond
8 with the truth, if it is contrary to what the official data say?
9 A. Yes. I agree with you.
10 Q. When we are on the subject of the fighting on the 16th, it went
11 on, but can we agree about the claim that the lines and trenches of the
12 6th Battalion did not move?
13 A. On the 16th of July?
14 Q. Yes. That they did not move on that date.
15 A. Well, they moved at the time when I was there because we had to
16 pull out to the reserve positions.
17 Q. Yes. But how far was it?
18 A. Well, maybe about 100 metres.
19 Q. So we can say that this was a relatively insignificant movement?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So we can say that you maintained the same positions throughout
22 the day and that you successfully repelled the attacks?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Mr. Sarapa in particular, and of course,
25 Mr. Milosevic, allow a short pause between question and answer. Thank
2 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Is it true that the members of the battalion command stayed inside
4 the same room throughout the day, including the duty officer?
5 A. The duty officer was in another room and we were all in an
6 apartment near the old school, that was about ten metres away.
7 Q. And if there was a phone call for the battalion, could any of
8 those present take the call in the room, those who were in the room?
9 A. Well, usually the commander took the call.
10 Q. And in the commander's absence, would it be quite understandable
11 that you as the deputy would take the call?
12 A. Yes, if I was there as his deputy, I would do that.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there re-examination, Mr. McCloskey?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Milosevic, your testimony ends here. We don't
19 have any further questions for you, which means you're free to go back
20 home. You'll receive all the assistance you require from our staff.
21 Before you leave this courtroom, however, on behalf of everyone here, I
22 wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony and also I wish
23 you a safe journey back home.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents? I imagine there are no documents from
2 the Prosecution. From the Nikolic Defence team there are two and there
3 are -- these are the two aerial images that the witness marked for us,
5 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, according to the
6 list that was submitted.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections to that?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, but could I just ask where they came from?
9 The aerial images? Was that something that we gave you or is it -- the
10 source, just so we have an idea of the time, the date of the pictures
11 taken, that sort of thing.
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. These are the
13 materials that we received from the Prosecution. I believe that this is
14 part of the collection that was prepared by Mr. Ruez, and I will be
15 providing my colleagues from the Prosecution with the exact numbers.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So there is no objection, I take it.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And I wouldn't imagine any objection from the other
19 Defence teams so these two documents are so admitted.
20 Can we proceed with the next witness?
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Lazarevic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to start
25 giving evidence. I don't think we'll finish today. But I'm confident
1 we'll finish tomorrow. Before you start your evidence, you're required by
2 our rules to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the
3 truth. Please go ahead.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: MITAR LAZAREVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Please make yourself
9 comfortable. Mr. Vanderpuye, you haven't indicated to the Court if it's
10 the case of resorting to Rule 90(E).
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: There is no such application.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
13 So, Mr. Lazarevic, what's going to happen in simple terms is that
14 Mr. Vanderpuye will ask you questions first and he will then be followed
15 by the Defence teams on cross-examination. Mr. Vanderpuye?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you,
17 Your Honours, good afternoon, counsel.
18 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic. I'm going to ask you to try to
20 keep your voice up so that the interpreters can hear you and also to allow
21 a short pause between the questions that I put to you and your answer so
22 that everybody has time to catch up and the translations can go to
23 everyone. If there is anything that I ask you that's not clear, just make
24 that known to me and I'll do my best to try and rephrase it in a way
25 that you can better understand the question. As a matter of first order,
1 would you please state your name for the record.
2 A. My name is Mitar Lazarevic.
3 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, where were you born?
4 A. I was born on the 16th of July, 1957, in the village of
5 Donji Sepak, Zvornik municipality, where I live today.
6 Q. What is your educational background, Mr. Lazarevic?
7 A. I have a vocational college, I'm a teacher.
8 Q. And are you employed now?
9 A. Yes. I am employed as a customs official in Tuzla.
10 Q. How long have you been employed in this capacity?
11 A. I've been working in the customs service for the past nine years,
12 in other words since 1998.
13 Q. Have you received any prior military training?
14 A. No. Well, I did my national service but that's it. And of
15 course, there is my participation in the war.
16 Q. Okay. When did you do your national service?
17 A. In 1979, it was in the former Yugoslav army.
18 Q. Now, you mentioned your participation in the war. Did there come
19 a time after you'd completed your --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When were you mobilised?
22 A. On the 20th of May 1992.
23 Q. And to what unit were you mobilised?
24 A. Well, they first made me part of some guards in the village until
25 the mobilisation was called, and then I got the call-up papers from the
1 military department and at that time I was in Kiseljak Battalion. I don't
2 know the exact number of that battalion, the numerical designation of this
3 battalion but it was in Kiseljak.
4 Q. And did that battalion become part of the VRS formally at some
6 A. Well, the battalion, as soon as it was formed, it was part of the
7 Republika Srpska army.
8 Q. And did it -- was it subordinated to a particular brigade at some
10 A. Well, every battalion was subordinate to Zvornik Brigade in the
11 area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade, which was the Zvornik
13 Q. And when did that occur with respect to the Kiseljak Battalion?
14 A. I don't understand your question.
15 Q. Well, did the battalion that you were part of become part of the
16 Zvornik Brigade?
17 A. Well, yes, naturally. According to the establishment, it was part
18 of the Zvornik Brigade.
19 Q. And do you remember when that happened?
20 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you. I don't know the date.
21 Q. Now, did your battalion eventually become known as the
22 2nd Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade?
23 A. Well, you see, the battalion Kiseljak split into two parts. One
24 part went to Malesici and I went with it. That was the 2nd Battalion. As
25 more people were mobilised, two battalions were set up and then at one
1 point, this battalion where I was, which was headquartered in Malesici was
2 the 2nd battalion. Now, I don't know whether it was the 2nd Battalion at
3 the time when it was in Kiseljak. All I know is that at the time when I
4 was at Malesici, it was the 2nd Battalion.
5 Q. Okay. When was that?
6 A. Maybe 1993 or late 1992. I really can't tell you but at any rate,
7 it did split into two parts.
8 Q. And what was your position within this battalion?
9 A. I was a general services officer, or in other words, I was the
10 assistant commander for general services.
11 Q. And is that how you began your service within the battalion or did
12 you move up to that position from another position?
13 A. Well, at the beginning, I was in a trench on the line, but most of
14 the time I spent at this post, both in Kiseljak and later on in Malesici.
15 Q. And when did you become assistant commander for general services?
16 A. I think it was in 1992, right at the beginning, maybe after a
17 month or two, and after that initial period, I was at that post
19 Q. In your position as assistant commander for general services, can
20 you describe what your duties and responsibilities were?
21 A. I kept tabs on the strength of the battalion. I took -- I kept
22 records about who was where on the line, on leave. I issued salaries
23 and --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises we didn't catch the
25 last part of the answer.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Apart from issuing salaries and keeping records
2 about who was on the line or on leave, what else did you do? The
3 interpreters didn't catch the last part of your statement, of your reply.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, usually, if somebody from the
5 battalion needed to go out in the field, I would make a list, the
6 commander would sign it, I would then take it to the brigade. So all the
7 tasks that had to do with the drafting things, typing things, this was my
8 job, and I did it on the commander's orders.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Now, with respect to your keeping track of the whereabouts or
12 attendance of members of the battalion, did you actually take attendance?
13 A. No. Not for the companies. I was in charge of the battalion. I
14 couldn't go to the line every day to take attendance of the people who
15 were on the line, whether they were there or not. It was the company
16 commanders could did that. I just made a rota for the command, 5/2, five
17 days we would be on the line and for two days we would be off. If the
18 situation was normal. I never did rota for the companies. They were on
19 the lines, themselves, and they would be on furlough and they were doing
20 that among themselves. The companies did that. I was not in charge of
21 that. I was not involved in that at all.
22 Q. Was there a process by which the company commanders would furnish
23 you with these records?
24 A. No, not to me. They would provide that to the commander. They
25 would provide me with lists if they went to the field, as for the
1 attendance records, I didn't have that, I didn't know who of them was on
2 the line, who was in the shift. I simply didn't know that and it was not
3 up to me to know it.
4 Q. Were these records kept in a particular place?
5 A. I don't know, probably, for a certain time, and then it was
6 destroyed because this was not an important document. This was not safe
7 guarded for a long time. If something was of more importance, the
8 archives were sent to the brigade. I don't think that this particular
9 document was part of the archives that were kept, but I'm not sure when I
10 say that.
11 Q. What were your responsibilities as far as concerns the keeping of
12 records, then?
13 A. Nothing particular.
14 Q. Okay. With respect to the payroll records, did you keep those
16 A. As for the payrolls, they would get the money and everybody would
17 sign, every company has a recording clerk, everybody signed and we
18 returned the payroll lists to the brigade from which we actually got the
20 Q. Did you keep the payroll list or a copy of it?
21 A. The original would be signed and returned to the brigade from
22 which we got the money. We never kept any copies, as far as I know.
23 Q. Okay. Now, in your position as assistant commander for general
24 affairs, to whom did you report?
25 A. To the battalion commander.
1 Q. And during your period in this battalion, how long did you remain
2 in this position?
3 A. I've already told you from the beginning. Maybe not for the
4 initial month or so, but after that, I was there all the time.
5 Q. Okay. And when were you demobilised?
6 A. 11 February 1996, I was sent to do work obligation.
7 Q. Now, you indicated that the battalion command was centred in
8 Malesici; is that right?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And can you tell us approximately how far that is from Rocevic?
11 A. About 15 or 16 kilometres to 20. I'm not sure. Between a minimum
12 of 15 and a maximum of 20 I would say.
13 Q. Now, during July 1995 were you a member of the command of the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And in 1995 July, can you tell us who the commander of that
17 battalion was?
18 A. Srecko Acemovic.
19 Q. And who was the deputy commander of the battalion?
20 A. Stevo Savic.
21 Q. As best as you recall, who were the other members of the command
22 during July 1995?
23 A. Stevo Savic was not there at that moment. He was at work
24 obligation. Milorad Sarkotic security. He was also not there. He was in
25 the field in Sarajevo. Vujo Lazarevic was in charge of morale. There
1 were others. Vlado Acemovic; he was in charge of technical service;
2 Zivad Pisic, the logistics; Zoran Jovic; and there were some couriers, I
3 don't know what their names were.
4 Q. And are you familiar with the infantry company commanders who were
5 in place at that time? That is in July of 1995.
6 A. Yes. Dragan Stjepanovic, Miroslav Stankovic and Milan Radic.
7 Those were the company commanders.
8 Q. If I could, I'd just like to draw your attention to a different
9 area, and I'd like to focus on your actions and movements in and around
10 the time of the fall of Srebrenica and some period thereafter. First, do
11 you remember when Srebrenica fell?
12 A. I don't remember when Srebrenica fell. I know it was in July but
13 I am not sure of the date.
14 Q. Okay. Now, is there anything that I could show you that might
15 help refresh your recollection?
16 A. Go ahead, if you have something to show me.
17 Q. All right. Could I just have 65 ter 2469, please, in e-court?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
19 MR. BOURGON: Could my colleague explain, Mr. President, before he
20 goes and moves ahead with the showing of the document how he intends to
21 refresh the memory of the witness? And whether the witness agrees that
22 this will indeed refresh his memory? Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We have gone through this before. Yes,
24 Mr. Vanderpuye?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: First, I don't think it's necessary for me to
1 establish how it will refresh the witness's recollection, how the
2 witness's -- the operations of the witness's mind are the operations of
3 his own mind.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I know how it's going
5 to do that. My friend, my colleague, was killed on the 12th of July, and
6 he was buried actually on the 12th of July. If that is what the counsel
7 is referring to. Maybe that's what he's going to use to refresh my
8 memory. If that is there.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE:
10 Q. Well, does that help you are remember around the time that
11 Srebrenica fell?
12 A. If that is what you had in mind, I know that on the 12th of July,
13 my friend was killed in Srebrenica and he was buried on the 12th of July,
14 if that is what you had in mind and this is what I stated during my
15 interview with yourselves.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move ahead.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. In and around this time, around the time that your friend had his
19 funeral, and thereafter, did you become aware of anything unusual going on
20 in Rocevic?
21 A. I learned it from commander Srecko Acimovic. Some prisoners had
22 been brought in, but I don't know what date it was on.
23 Q. Can you approximate or relate that to the date when your friend's
24 funeral was?
25 A. I think it was later than that but I'm not sure. I can't remember
1 the date because at the time nobody kept any diaries. And it was 12 years
2 ago. So it's very difficult for me to remember the details of when things
3 happened. I think it was later but I'm not sure.
4 Q. Now, you indicated that you learned some information from your
5 commander, Mr. Acimovic.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell us what you learned from him.
8 A. On that date, actually during that period of time, everybody was
9 on the line because telegrams had arrived from the brigade. Before that,
10 when the Operation Srebrenica was about to start, we had to be present on
11 the line with 100 per cent strength. The commander went to -- home to
12 take a bath. He was an exception. And that evening, he told us that in
13 the school in Rocevic there were some prisoners that had been brought
14 there earlier on. Should I proceed? Should I go on?
15 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions.
16 A. Okay. So you're asking me questions. Yes.
17 Q. First, maybe if I'll get you to slow down a little bit so that we
18 can have this properly translated and give the interpreters time to catch
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. You said that there was a requirement of 100 per cent strength.
22 Could you just explain what you mean by that?
23 A. That's the presence on the front line. Which means that everybody
24 who was on the battalion list had to be there. Everybody had to be there
25 save for those who were ill. Everybody else had to be on the line, all of
1 us who had been mobilised.
2 Q. The commander was an exception is what you said. Can you explain
3 what that means?
4 A. The commander is a commander. He commanded all of us who were in
5 the battalion. He went home on that day to take a bath. I don't know.
6 Q. Did he tell you how he came to learn about prisoners in the school
7 in Rocevic?
8 A. He said that he had arrived home and that his parents, his mother
9 and father, had told him that there were some prisoners in the school in
10 Rocevic and that he went up there to investigate what was going on. He
11 just wanted to see what the matter was.
12 Q. And do you recall about when it was that he left to go home to
13 take this bath or this shower?
14 A. I believe that it was in the afternoon.
15 Q. And did he tell you what he observed when he went to investigate?
16 A. He saw some people who had accompanied the soldiers and he said
17 that they were behaving in a very not normal way.
18 Q. Did he mention what people he saw, whether they were soldiers or
20 A. He said that they were soldiers but that he didn't know where they
21 were from, who they were, and he even told me that he assumed that they
22 were not members of the Zvornik Brigade. Whether they were or were not, I
23 don't know, but he told me that he assumed that they were not.
24 Q. Did he tell you why he made that assumption?
25 A. Because he didn't know them by sight. Commanders normally know
1 his men. But he didn't know any of the security guards who had escorted
2 those soldiers and who were guarding them.
3 Q. Did he mention to you how many of these soldiers or security
4 guards there were?
5 A. I don't know. I don't remember him telling me. I don't think
6 that there were many but I don't know how many there were.
7 Q. Did he mention to you whether or not he went to the school alone
8 or with somebody?
9 A. When he saw the prisoners, I believe that later on he talked to
10 the priest and the president of the local commune in order to provide some
11 food and water for those people who were imprisoned.
12 Q. Did he mention how many people were imprisoned?
13 A. He said that the gym was full but he didn't know their number.
14 How could he have known their number? He didn't count heads, did he?
15 Q. Did he mention any other observations he made when he was at the
17 A. He said that the security guards were drunk, that they had killed
18 a few people down there, and they had wounded a woman in that village, in
20 Q. Did he mention how he came into that information?
21 A. I don't know whether he himself saw that and told me about it. I
22 don't know. I can't remember.
23 Q. Did he describe any interactions that he had with other
24 individuals that were at the school at the time, any conversations and
25 things like that?
1 A. I only know that he asked who the commander was and that he had
2 problems with these people because they were drunk and they even
3 threatened him, and that's all I know.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think this would be a good time to --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop any minute.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Vanderpuye. We'll resume
8 tomorrow morning at 9.00. Mr. Lazarevic, between now and tomorrow, when
9 you resume your testimony, you're not to communicate with anyone on the
10 subject matter of your testimony. Is that clear?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, of course it's clear.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. We stand adjourned until tomorrow
13 morning at 9.00.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
17 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.