1 Wednesday, 27 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everyone. And good morning to you,
6 Madam Registrar. If you could kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. All the accused are here. From the Defence
10 teams I only notice the absence of Mr. Meek. Also see some new faces.
11 The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye. We have been told
12 that there are some preliminaries that you would like to raise. I think
13 from the Prosecution. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I just wanted to update you
15 on the week's witnesses briefly. We have based on -- we've shaved some
16 time off, you may have noticed that I went for half an hour and we
17 estimated an hour and a half. The Defence went for three and a half hours
18 less than they'd estimated. And the estimates for this witness on the
19 Defence were originally five, but they are now saying that that's going to
20 be significantly less. We've had to postpone Witness 139 so after
21 Lazarevic, we have one more witness, a MUP witness. Of course we'll have
22 to see how it goes but that's the way the week looks. The MUP witness got
23 here just recently so if we do finish Lazarevic earlier than anticipated,
24 we'll need to start the MUP witness tomorrow first thing in the morning.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And how long do you expect that witness
1 to be testifying, including cross? Will it cover us Friday too or not?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think it will. Because it's hard to say
3 but the estimates for him are not -- are not that long. I don't have that
4 right at my finger trips, but I don't think it was more than an hour and a
5 half on direct and it's mostly a witness that the Borovcanin --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And then there is two hours 20 minutes, out of
7 which one hour is from the Borovcanin team. I don't expect it to be much
8 longer. Anyway, we have to play it by the ear -- play it by ear and see
9 how it goes. Thank you. Anything else?
10 Last week, we issued an order in relation to the trial lengths, in
11 view of a possible joinder, and we haven't -- you haven't come back to us
12 as yet, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm working on that right now, as well as our
14 people, Mr. Thayer and others, and we're trying to get that as organised
15 and as accurate as we can. I can -- I'll talk to Mr. Thayer at the break
16 and see if we can give you an idea when we will be able to get back to
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The other thing is we discussed this
19 morning, and we believe that we should bring this to your attention,
20 because so far it has been contained only in a letter that Accused Tolimir
21 sent to me and to the Registrar, a handwritten note dated 19th June, which
22 is a few days ago but which was communicated to me yesterday. And
23 basically, in it -- I don't think I should read it all, but basically, in
24 it, Accused Tolimir, referring to the joinder motion, is on his own
25 initiative proposing that the Trial Chamber dismiss the Prosecution motion
1 on joinder of the case and he gives various reasons for that. He believes
2 that through separate cases and proceedings, an adequate distribution of
3 time for his preparation would be ensured and that separate proceedings
4 would be ensured in a much shorter period of time. And lastly he says
5 that he will define other reasons after permanent counsel has been
6 assigned to him. It's my understanding also that there has been some
7 progress in assigning counsel to Mr. Tolimir and you know that there will
8 be a further initial appearance on Tuesday where we suppose the situation
9 would crystallise.
10 So that is the position at the moment. However, between now and
11 then, we will be handing down a ruling establishing time limits for the
12 filing of responses in relation to the two motions, the motion for joinder
13 in the respective two cases. Expect that tomorrow.
14 All right. There are no further preliminaries, I take it.
15 Then we can bring in Mr. Lazarevic and proceed.
16 And thank you for your attention.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Lazarevic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good to see you back and ready to continue
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye? Go ahead.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President, good morning to you.
25 Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.
1 WITNESS: MITAR LAZAREVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lazarevic. Yesterday when we left off last you
5 had been talking about information that had been given to you by your
6 commander. I just want to clarify for the record where was it that this
7 information was conveyed to you?
8 A. At the command in Malesici.
9 Q. And if you recall, was there anybody besides yourself present when
10 your commander related this information to you?
11 A. I suppose there must have been, but I don't know their names. I'm
12 sure there must have been people, but I don't know who.
13 Q. And as best as you recall, about how long after your commander had
14 initially gone to go home did he give you this information?
15 A. When he returned from Rocevic, he told us all that. I don't know
16 how late it was. I'm sure that it was in the afternoon but I don't know
17 exactly when it was.
18 Q. All right. Thank you for that. Now, when he returned from
19 Rocevic and you had this conversation, what did he do following the
21 A. I did not have a conversation with him. He was telling us all
22 that. It is not that I specifically had a conversation with him.
23 Q. What happened after he told you all of that?
24 A. In Kozluk, we had a place where he called us by the telephone. He
25 asked for Pandurevic and Obrenovic and he couldn't get them. And then he
1 called the brigade again. He spoke to somebody and he says that he had
2 spoken with a security man from the corps and that he was told that on the
3 following day these people would be exchanged. I don't know who he spoke
4 to. He only said that he spoke to the security guard from the corps.
5 That's the only thing that he told us.
6 Q. Okay. Just based on the rate of the interpretation I've received,
7 maybe you could just slow down just a little bit so that we can make it a
8 little easier on the interpreters as well.
9 Now --
10 A. Very well.
11 Q. You made a reference to Kozluk. Were you in Malesici when you got
12 this information?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. So my question to you is what did he do following he gave --
15 following his giving you this information while you were in Malesic?
16 A. I've just told you that he called by the phone that he asked for
17 Pandurevic and Obrenovic, but he could not get in touch with them. After
18 that, he again called the brigade and he got in touch with a security guy
19 from the corps and that security guy had promised him that these people
20 would be exchanged on the following day. And this is all I can tell you
21 about that.
22 Q. All right. What happened after that?
23 A. After that, I believe that we went to bed. I don't know what
24 happened next. At that moment, nobody made a record of the course of
25 events. We went to bed and sometime around midnight, maybe around
1 midnight or 1.00 or 2.00 after midnight, a phone rang and the telegram
2 arrived. This is what I stated and this is what happened.
3 Q. Okay. Tell us about this telegram that arrived.
4 A. The telegram arrived, and in that telegram, it was requested that
5 a group of people would be sent to Rocevic to execute these men. The
6 telegram was coded. We could not decode it and signals guys came to
7 decode the telegram.
8 Q. Now, did you actually see this telegram?
9 A. We all saw it, all the telegrams that arrive, there was a notebook
10 by the induction telephone and the telegrams were recorded. We all saw
11 the telegram but we could not decode it and then the signals guys came,
12 decoded it and then we all knew what the content of the telegram was. We
13 could not read it before these guys came.
14 Q. How did you come to know of the telegram in the first instance?
15 A. I don't know who received it. It could have even been me. I
16 don't remember the details. In the building where the telephone was,
17 three people would bed there. It was not always the same people. So I
18 don't know who received that telegram. It could have even been me but I'm
19 not sure. One of the three guys received the telegram, one of the three
20 who slept in that room by the telephone.
21 Q. When you saw the telegram, was it in a coded form or in a decoded
23 A. It was coded. The signals guys came, and they decoded it as I've
24 just told you.
25 Q. And do you know who the signals guys were that came to decode the
2 A. I know the guys who were signals guys, but I don't know which one
3 of them actually decoded it. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. I knew
4 all of them. I knew who they were. But which one of them decoded that
5 particular telegram, I don't know.
6 Q. And in terms of what the telegram said, did you have an
7 opportunity to see that?
8 A. All of us who were in the command read the telegram and I was one
9 of them, one of those people.
10 Q. Okay. So you read it after it had been decoded?
11 A. We all saw it. We all knew the content of the telegram.
12 Q. What do you recall that the content of the telegram was?
13 A. That a group of men from the 2nd Battalion should be allocated for
14 the job of executing these people who were accommodated in Rocevic.
15 Q. And was this information communicated to your commander?
16 A. Of course. He was the first to receive all the information, and
17 then he would be the one to decide who would do what, to assign different
18 tasks based on the information that he received.
19 Q. Tell us what happened after this information was communicated to
20 your commander.
21 A. The commander refused to carry out the order and all of us who
22 were there supported him in his decision.
23 Q. All right. Who was there?
24 A. I repeat, and you asked me yesterday, I don't know exactly who was
25 there but I suppose that everybody who was at the command was there, even
1 the company commanders were there during the night when all this happened.
2 Yesterday I told you who the people were.
3 Q. All right. Was there any discussion about what to do concerning
4 this telegram, involving the commander and the others in the command?
5 A. What do you mean when you say the other commanders?
6 Q. The other members of the command and the commander.
7 A. Of course, of course. At that moment, we were all of the opinion
8 that only somebody who was not normal could have issued such an order and
9 after that, the commander sent a telegram back to the brigade refusing to
10 carry out the order that he had received.
11 Q. Well, did you see that telegram as well?
12 A. Of course, because it was sent from the same induction telephone,
13 a telegram was sent to the brigade refusing to carry out the order that we
14 had received. I don't know under which number that telegram was sent but
15 of course I saw it. It was sent from that same telephone.
16 Q. Okay. Are you saying it would have been in the same book as the
17 order -- as the telegram that was received?
18 A. Yes, yes. Because everything that was received from the brigade
19 would be recorded in a notebook, and at the same time, whatever we sent
20 back to the brigade would be recorded in the same notebook as well.
21 Q. All right. Now, was that telegram sent back -- that was sent back
22 to the brigade, was it coded as well?
23 A. I really don't know. I don't know whether it was coded or not. I
24 know it was sent but whether it was coded, I can't remember.
25 Q. And do you recall in substance what the telegram said with respect
1 to the refusal that you spoke about?
2 A. I can't remember the wording. I know that the order was refused
3 and that's the essence of the whole thing. I don't know exactly how it
4 was worded, but I know that the gist of the telegram was that the order
5 was being refused.
6 Q. Perhaps my question was rather inartful, but what I would like to
7 know is if you can recall if there was a reason that was proffered for the
9 A. The reason was that the order was just crazy, and at that moment
10 we mustered the courage to say that our battalion was not prepared to
11 carry out such an order, and that's where my interest in the matter
13 Q. Was there any discussion of this issue with the infantry company
15 A. I know that the commanders of the companies and all the other
16 members of the command were familiar with the order and the reaction to
18 Q. And what happened after this telegram was sent in response to the
19 one that was received from the brigade?
20 A. I know that the commander was shouting, he was talking to
21 somebody, I don't know with whom, and he was cursing and quarrelling with
22 somebody, but I don't know who that was. Our commander was a very quiet
23 and self-effacing person and he would never volunteer any information
24 unless you specifically asked for it. I know that he had words with
25 somebody, that he was talking quite loudly, but I don't know who he was
1 talking to.
2 Q. Just to put this in context, is this somebody that you're
3 referring to that was in the command or somebody that was not in the
5 A. No, no. I don't know. He was talking to at the command. He
6 could not quarrel with the command. He could only talk to them.
7 Q. Again, maybe my question is inartful. I mean when I say command,
8 I'm talking about somebody in Malesici or not in Malesici?
9 A. Malesici.
10 Q. Now --
11 A. But he quarrelled with somebody who was not in Malesici.
12 Q. And did that conversation occur over the telephone or by some
13 other means?
14 A. By telephone.
15 Q. Now, did you have any indication as to whom he might have been
16 talking to while you were -- while this quarrelling and cursing was going
18 A. No, no. I don't know.
19 Q. And what happened after that?
20 A. After that, I suppose we went to bed, and any way, if we hadn't,
21 it would have been a different course of events. I think we went to bed
22 straight after that.
23 Q. Are you aware of whether or not any other telegrams were sent,
24 either to or from the brigade?
25 A. I wouldn't know that.
1 Q. And with respect to the telegram that you saw that was received
2 from the brigade, did you understand that to be an order or a request?
3 A. In the army there are no requests. There are only orders.
4 Q. All right. Now, as far as the next day is concerned, do you
5 recall what transpired?
6 A. I know the commander went to Rocevic to tell them he would not
7 select men for that purpose.
8 Q. All right. First, how do you know that?
9 A. Because he told us. We talked in the morning and the discussion
10 was about his going to Rocevic to tell them that he was not going to
11 detach people for that purpose.
12 Q. Did he go alone or did he go with somebody?
13 A. Alone, as far as I know. I think he went alone.
14 Q. Are you aware of whether or not any other members of the
15 2nd Battalion went to Rocevic that day?
16 A. I wouldn't know that. I don't think so.
17 Q. And after the commander went to Rocevic, did you receive any
18 information about what was going on at the school?
19 A. No. At that time, we up there who were on the front line didn't
20 know a thing.
21 Q. Okay. Did you at some point later find out what was going on at
22 the school that day?
23 A. Well, word got out later, after a while, that those people had
24 been taken away by trucks. I don't know whether it was one or two or
25 three days later. In any case, they were taken away from Rocevic by
2 Q. Okay. And do you know whether or not the 2nd Battalion had
3 volunteered any trucks or used any trucks in that process?
4 A. Before the start of the Srebrenica operation, a request came -- a
5 demand came from the brigade that all units who had trucks should send
6 those trucks with drivers to the brigade.
7 Q. All right. And was that done with respect to your battalion?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And how many trucks or drivers were sent to the brigade by your
11 A. Only one driver and one truck.
12 Q. And do you recall the driver, the name of the driver that was
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Just we've
19 had these names were mentioned previously in closed session with the
20 previous witness, and I believe that it will be better to have these names
21 and this part of the examination-in-chief of my colleague performed in
22 closed session. Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. In fact, we need to redact
24 line 13, the name line 13 and if we are going to proceed on this area of
25 testimony, we need to do that in private session, if we are going to
1 mention names.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I only have
3 maybe a couple of questions --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- and I'll be out of this area.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session, then, please.
7 Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
8 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. With respect to the events that transpired at the school involving
7 these prisoners, were you ever at the school yourself, Mr. Lazarevic?
8 A. I used to be a pupil at that school because that's a neighbouring
9 village to mine.
10 Q. Okay. Specifically to the time period that we are talking about,
11 though, were you ever at the school?
12 A. No. I told you a hundred times that I hadn't been there then.
13 You're asking me these questions -- no, no. No way. At that time we were
14 all on the front line.
15 Q. Bear with me for one moment. All right. Mr. Lazarevic, I have no
16 further questions for you. Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Also for sticking to the
18 time frame that you had indicated before.
19 Mr. Bourgon?
20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll be the first one
21 going up asking questions in cross-examination for this witness, but
22 giving the answer that was just provided by the witness, I'd like to have
23 a short break simply to reorganise my notes and my -- maybe shorten my
24 cross-examination after I speak with my client.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: How much time you require.
1 MR. BOURGON: Ten minutes, 15 minutes at the most, Mr. President.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a ten minute break. If you
4 require more time, just let us know in the meantime, please. Thank you.
5 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 --- Break taken at 9.39 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 9.55 a.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, M. Bourgon. S'il vous plait.
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lazarevic.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. My name is Stephane Bourgon and I'm the counsel representing Drago
14 Nikolic in this case, but I guess you know that already because we met
15 yesterday, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I have quite a few questions for you concerning your testimony, as
18 well as the interviews you provided with the Prosecution before testifying
19 today. First I'd like to begin simply by confirming that your initial
20 interview with the Prosecution took place on 27 June 2002. Do you recall
21 this date or the approximate --
22 A. Yes, yeah. Around that time.
23 Q. This took place in Banja Luka, and I think you remembered that the
24 name of -- I'm sorry I may have cut you off. So this took place in Banja
25 Luka, you remember this?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you remember that the name of the investigator or do you
3 remember by any chance the name of the investigator was Mr. Bursik; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes, although I don't remember the name.
6 Q. Well, I have with me of course the transcript of that interview,
7 and we may have to refer to that during your testimony today. My second
8 question is that do you remember meeting with some persons representing
9 the accused Drago Nikolic on 29 May of this year; is that correct?
10 A. In Zvornik?
11 Q. Yes, in Zvornik.
12 A. Yes. I recall that. That was in Zvornik.
13 Q. And I'd also like to confirm with you that last week you met with
14 the counsel for the Prosecution. The date I have is 20 June. So I guess
15 that would be last Thursday; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And you mentioned at the beginning that, of course, you recall
18 that you and I met yesterday for a few minutes, just before you began your
19 testimony; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you remember, of course, most of the information that you
22 provided to -- whether the Prosecution or the Defence, at each of these
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. One quick question before we continue is: Did you, after meeting
1 with the Prosecution last week, did you meet with them again to discuss
2 your testimony today?
3 A. With the Prosecutor? Yes. Yes.
4 Q. So when did you meet with them again?
5 A. I told you I didn't meet with them.
6 Q. Sorry, in the transcript it said "yes." I'm sorry, in the
7 transcript it said, "Yes." Okay. Lets move on to my first area of
8 question. Yesterday we discussed the style of command of your commander,
9 Mr. Acimovic, and I'd simply like you to confirm that it is your view that
10 Mr. Acimovic was, one, very young, that he had a limited education, but
11 that he was also very brave; is that correct?
12 A. It's all correct.
13 Q. And you also mentioned to me of course that he was the type of
14 commander that would go out of his way to accomplish any orders issued to
16 A. I said that about the commander Vinko Pandurevic. His orders he
17 always tried to comply with and execute, but I didn't speak about the
19 Q. Thank you. I move to another topic. During your testimony of
20 course you discussed the presence of prisoners in the Rocevic school, and
21 I'd just like to confirm with you that before that day, when your
22 commander first told you about the presence of prisoners in Rocevic, this
23 is something that you had no knowledge of whatsoever; is that correct?
24 A. Of course not. I was in Malesic. How should I have known?
25 Q. So this was a complete surprise and you had never heard before
1 that day that there were prisoners to be distributed in various schools in
2 the area of Zvornik?
3 A. Of course it was a surprise.
4 Q. And it was also a surprise for anybody who was present at your
5 battalion that day; is that correct?
6 A. I'm sure it was.
7 Q. Now, if I move to the situation in the battalion command on the
8 night of 14 July, first, you've already mentioned and I'd like you to
9 confirm that everyone was sleeping at the battalion command when the
10 telegram you referred to arrived; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. The phone woke us up.
12 Q. And you yourself, I put that question to you when we met, you
13 don't remember whether you were the officer on duty that night?
14 A. I don't remember. I've already answered that in reply to the
15 Prosecutor's question. Somebody was on duty but 12 years after the event,
16 how can I remember who it was?
17 Q. And what about Vujo Lazarevic? Do you remember whether he was on
18 duty that night?
19 A. I've told you I don't remember exactly. Why are you asking me
20 that question again and again? If I can't tell you whether it was I, how
21 can I tell you whether it was somebody else? I'm not sure who was on
23 Q. Just to let you know, Mr. Lazarevic, whatever I asked you before,
24 the Court is not aware of this, so we have to go through this exercise so
25 that the Judges are aware of your answers.
1 A. Okay. Go ahead. Ask me questions.
2 Q. Now, also when we spoke yesterday you confirmed that the -- that
3 conversation at the battalion command involving the telegram, you confirm
4 that it involved more than three persons; although, you don't remember the
5 names of the others; is that correct?
6 A. I told you and I told the Prosecutor that everybody is on the
7 line, 100 per cent of the men were there, and all the command members were
8 there as well. Whether there was somebody else, I really can't tell you.
9 I can't remember all these details.
10 Q. But the only thing I'm trying to -- I understand that you may not
11 remember the names, but whether there was three or more people is
12 something that I believe one would be able to remember, and yesterday you
13 mentioned to me four or five, maybe six?
14 A. I'm sure there were more than three men there. I'm sure of that.
15 I'm absolutely certain.
16 Q. Now, when those discussions took place concerning the telegram
17 that you say arrived that night, I take it that you yourself are present
18 in these discussions?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And as you told me yesterday, that from that point on, you were
21 always in the command thereafter, in the battalion command?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, can you confirm that throughout those events -- I'm talking
24 about that night, and I include the activities of the morning -- can you
25 confirm that your commander never mentioned the name Drago Nikolic in
1 relation to this telegram?
2 A. I've already told you he only told us that he wanted to talk to
3 either Pandurevic or Obrenovic. He never mentioned Nikolic. And I also
4 told you that he is a man of very few words. He never volunteered the
5 information. I never asked him who he had spoken to. Hence, I don't
7 Q. So you have no knowledge of a telephone conversation between
8 Drago Nikolic and your commander that night or in the morning; is that
10 A. I don't have any knowledge of that, that's correct.
11 Q. I move now, Mr. Lazarevic, to the situation of the presence of
12 prisoners at Rocevic school, and that's the information that you testified
13 about yesterday and today. First I'd like to confirm with you that
14 everything you know about Rocevic on the 14th of July is what was reported
15 to you by your commander; is that correct?
16 A. That's all I know. I've told you I only heard things from the
17 commander. I did not see these people myself.
18 Q. And that was my next question, that you did not see anything
19 yourself that took place in Rocevic either of these two days?
20 A. No, no, no.
21 Q. And that conversation that you reported earlier today, you said
22 that your commander made a phone call from Kozluk. This conversation of
23 course, you did not hear that conversation, did you?
24 A. No. He said, and I repeat, that he always asked for Pandurevic or
25 Obrenovic. I've stated that already.
1 Q. And you yourself, Mr. Lazarevic, did not speak to the priest that
2 you mentioned yesterday in your testimony?
3 A. Repeat the question, please?
4 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned that your commander had a conversation
5 with the priest in Rocevic. But you yourself never spoke to that priest?
6 A. How could I have spoken to him? I was in Malesic, 30 kilometres
7 away. How should I have spoken to the priest? I was not in Rocevic and
8 the priest was in Rocevic. He organised with the priest for these men to
9 be given food and water. What on earth did that have to do with me? I
10 was in a different place.
11 Q. And that's all I'm trying to do is just to confirm this for the
12 record that you did not speak to the priest and that you would also agree
13 that you did not speak to the president of the local community who spoke
14 with your commander.
15 A. Again, how could I have spoken to him? I was 20 kilometres away.
16 Q. Now, yesterday, Mr. Lazarevic, you testified that your commander
17 had been informed by his father and his mother about the presence of
18 prisoners. Now, I refer here to the page 13366 of the transcript,
19 yesterday's transcript, sorry, at lines 8 to 11.
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And today, you confirmed -- both yesterday and today you confirmed
22 that this happened in the afternoon. So your commander left for a shower
23 in the afternoon and came back in the afternoon; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And that you mentioned yesterday, and I refer to your answer at
1 page 13367, lines 9 to 11, that your commander first saw the prisoners and
2 later he talked with the priest and the president in order to provide some
3 food and some water. That's what your commander told you about the
4 events; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And your commander told you that the gym was full of prisoners.
7 That's what you said yesterday at page 13367, lines 12 to 13.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'm just -- I was just a bit surprised yesterday when you
10 mentioned that because this is the first time that we hear that your
11 commander was aware that the gym was full. So you -- I just want to
12 confirm that you never mentioned this information before.
13 A. Nobody ever asked me.
14 Q. That's just to establish the facts. Now, Mr. Lazarevic, yesterday
15 at page 13367, line 17 to 18, you mention being told by your commander
16 that security guards had killed a few people. You remember saying that
18 A. Yes, I said that.
19 Q. Now, you also stated that on the same page, a little later, that
20 you don't know if your commander saw this for himself, simply what he told
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And you also stated yesterday that your commander told you about a
24 woman who had been wounded by the guards keeping the prisoners; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you also mentioned one last thing concerning that those
3 guarding the prisoners had threatened your commander. That's what he told
5 A. Yes, I heard that from him. I can only confirm what I heard from
6 him, nothing else.
7 Q. Can you just tell us, how is it that you never mentioned before
8 the issue of the security guards killing a few people, the wounded woman,
9 and the guards threatening your commander? This was never mentioned
11 A. Nobody ever asked me about that. That's why.
12 Q. I move on to the fact that your commander, when he came in, and
13 I'll quote you now from your interview, and I can show it to you if
14 necessary but I don't think it will be, you stated and that's the
15 interview in English page 13 and 14 for my colleagues from the
16 Prosecution, you stated, "And I know that he tried to talk to the
17 commander, or Chief of Staff, but he couldn't, nobody was available. Then
18 he talked to someone in the corps, and I know that there were sort of
19 fights or a conflict because he was -- and gave it the -- that which was
20 where had gone" that's basically -- I quote from your interview. If you
21 recall, how did that take place when your commander arrives at the
22 battalion command? Does he tell you about this conversation first or does
23 he tell you what he saw in Rocevic first?
24 A. I can't remember the sequence. You're asking me to remember
25 things that I can't remember after 12 years. I've just told you
1 everything I know. I can't remember the exact sequence of all these
3 Q. And so basically, the -- of course, the -- your commander comes
4 back to the battalion command and he gives this information to all those
5 who are present. That's what you said; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, and I've repeated it.
7 Q. Now, you mentioned this morning that then there was a conversation
8 or a call made to the brigade. Is that one call in Kozluk or is there two
9 calls, one in Kozluk and one at the battalion command? To the best of
10 your memory.
11 A. According to the commander, he made a call from Kozluk, and I know
12 that he made another one from the command, which means that he made two
13 telephone calls.
14 Q. And the call that was made at the battalion command, you say you
15 know of this phone call. Were you there beside the commander when he
16 called or were you told about this call?
17 A. I've already told you he is not a man of many words, and I could
18 not be with him at all times. I was not his baby sitter. I know that he
19 made a call because he shouted down the telephone. I've already told you
20 that. We could hear him shout down the telephone line, quarrel with
22 Q. And just to confirm that when he at that moment, during that
23 conversation, when he was shouting, this conversation, you don't know who
24 he was speaking to other than from what he told you?
25 A. Of course. He never told me. How was I supposed to know who was
1 on the other end of that telephone line?
2 Q. Thank you. I move to a different topic, Mr. Lazarevic. I
3 mentioned to you yesterday I would ask you a few questions concerning the
4 communications between your battalion and the brigade, as well as
5 communications between your battalion and the companies. So I just have a
6 few questions I'd like to ask you on this topic.
7 First, can you confirm that the communications centre in your
8 battalion was located about 40 metres away from the battalion command in a
9 different building?
10 A. Yes. I don't know how many metres. In any case it was close. I
11 don't know whether it was 40 metres, 100 metres, I wouldn't know.
12 Q. But it's a different building?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. And that building is where the -- I'm not sure because of the
15 translation how to call these people, I call them signalmen. Maybe I'll
16 just try this word to see if you understand the translation?
17 A. Yes, yes, yeah, yes, that's what I call them, I understand
19 Q. That's where the signalmen were working?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And can you confirm that the communication between -- just one
22 moment. I'm being told there is a translation error I need to check.
23 Sorry, I apologise.
24 MR. BOURGON: I apologise, Mr. President. I'm ready to continue.
25 Q. Okay. I'll go on with the communications -- just general
1 questions concerning communications. Can you confirm that the induction
2 phone you testified about, that's a military secure line and this line
3 exists between the battalion command and the brigade command?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that this is a secure line in the sense that conversations on
6 this line cannot be intercepted unless you plug into the wire physically?
7 A. That's how things should be, but I'm not really familiar with that
8 field, and I can't talk about it for that reason.
9 Q. Now, in your battalion command, you would agree with me that you
10 also had a radio which was on a brigade network but this radio was very
11 rarely used other than for radio checks at fixed times; is that correct?
12 A. What do you mean when you say radio sets? Do you mean Motorolas
13 or a proper radio set?
14 Q. Maybe I'll break down the question just to make it easy and we
15 understand each other. There was a proper radio set in the battalion
16 command; is that correct?
17 A. As far as I know, there wasn't. There were just Motorolas, a
18 civilian telephone line, and an induction telephone line. I'm not sure
19 about this radio set that you're talking about.
20 Q. And the Motorola, how often was it used and by whom?
21 A. The company commanders, the commander and the deputies had those.
22 And they were used for their internal communication, the communication
23 among themselves. Nobody else used them.
24 Q. And do you know yourself, Mr. Lazarevic, whether it was possible
25 from the battalion to reach the brigade on the radio?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. As far as the communications between the battalion command and the
3 companies and the battalion forward command post or IKM,
4 communications were also ensured by this induction telephone; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And are you aware that the companies also had an RUP 12 radio but
8 that they did not use them other than just to make checks at some times?
9 A. I really don't know. I know that there were Motorolas, there was
10 an induction telephone, and I don't know anything about the thing that
11 you're talking about.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, can you confirm that the -- if you wanted to
13 place a call using the induction telephone to the brigade, you would first
14 have to call your communications centre, that was the signalmen?
15 A. Yes. You don't have to go on. Yes, the answer is yes. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And then they called the switchboard at the brigade?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then the switchboard at the brigade connects to the --
19 whichever office you're looking for in the brigade command?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Okay. I move on now to the telegram that you testified about.
22 And first I'd like you to come back to something you said in your
23 interview, and I quote now from page 26 in English for my colleague from
24 the Prosecution, and I'll just quote you and then ask you to explain
25 further. You stated then, "There was a separate logbook for telegrams
1 because this was -- this was notebook strictly laid by the telephone, and
2 when the message would come, it was registered."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you explain that a little more so that the Trial Chamber
5 understands? Where is the book and where is the telephone in the command,
6 and what's the procedure when a telegram arrives?
7 A. You've answered it yourself. The notebook was by the telephone on
8 a desk. How am I supposed to explain that? It was on the desk, in a
9 corner, and when a telegram arrived, somebody received it and the
10 commander would be informed about that.
11 Q. I'm sorry for asking these questions, but I understand that for
12 you it's 12 years but for us we weren't there at all; and we are trying to
13 picture ourselves in the battalion command. And I would just like to
14 confirm that this book is immediately, first of all, beside the phone; is
15 that correct?
16 A. I've told you, yes.
17 Q. And because you mentioned there was a separate logbook for
18 telegrams, I take it that beside the phone there are two books?
19 A. No, just one for all the messages that arrived from the brigade.
20 There was just one notebook, as far as I can remember.
21 Q. And when a telegram arrived, did it arrive in writing, like
22 through a machine, or some other -- some other way?
23 A. I've already explained that once. You hold your telephone
24 receiver in one hand and you use your other hand to jot down what you
25 hear. I've already told you that, didn't I?
1 Q. Well, I'm not sure you mention it in your testimony, and if you
2 did, I'm sorry, I just wanted to make that clear for everyone. But can
3 you confirm whether you write down immediately in the book or on a piece
4 of paper beside the book?
5 A. You always record it in the notebook. Whatever you heard on the
6 telephone, you record it immediately into the notebook, as if it had been
7 dictated to you down the telephone. You would take notes in the notebook.
8 Q. And then who would dictate that to you? Would that be a signalman
9 from the brigade or would that be the duty officer from the brigade?
10 A. I don't know. I can't say anything to that.
11 Q. And within the battalion command, who would note it down? Anybody
12 who happens to pick up the phone or the duty officer?
13 A. Sometimes the duty officer, but in principle, it was whoever
14 happened to be there. Not much was made of who it was.
15 Q. Now, can you tell us, and assist the Trial Chamber, in explaining
16 how does a coded telegram look like? What do you get over the phone
17 exactly? What kind of information do they give you? Because we are not
18 soldiers here, and we are just trying to see -- I get the telegram. How
19 does it look like? What do I get over the phone?
20 A. First of all, I was not a soldier to tell you, and number 2, I
21 don't know what a coded telegram looked like. I did not use the codes. I
22 was not a signalsman. I was not aware of what this was all about. So
23 don't ask me that.
24 Q. But you did at time exercise the duty -- you were duty officer at
25 times; is that correct?
1 A. It was the duty officer in the battalion, the duty officer in the
2 brigade, and the duty officer in the battalion are two different things.
3 There is a distinction there.
4 Q. I don't want to confuse you. I'm talking that you yourself within
5 the battalion command, you were at times the battalion duty officer, were
7 A. First of all, you cannot confuse me, and second, I was.
8 Q. And when you received a telegram, all I'm trying to know is what
9 is it that they mention on the phone so that we understand how these
10 things work.
11 A. Well, the contents of the message is relayed over the phone. I
12 don't know what you're asking me. Whatever is dictated you write down.
13 You take it to the commander, and he takes up the action from there.
14 Q. And if the message is coded, what exactly do you get over the
16 A. Numbers. I think it went using numbers. You're asking me about
17 the means of communication. It was in coded text. They will you certain
18 numbers, you write them down, and I really don't know how to explain it.
19 That's a coded message.
20 Q. But the coded message, because you mention in your testimony that
21 you saw a coded telegram that night, and I'm just asking to you describe
22 what it looked like. Did it have code words or coded numbers or coded
24 A. I don't remember these things. There were numbers, I seem to
25 remember, but I told you once already that it was the signalsmen who
1 decoded such telegrams.
2 Q. So you stated that that night those signalmen were called in to
3 come and decode the telegram; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were you there when they did that?
6 A. Probably.
7 Q. And was that done by one person or two persons?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. And do you recall whether they used a book of codes?
10 A. I don't know. I don't know these details.
11 Q. So it is your testimony, however, that these signalsmen are
12 qualified to decode telegrams?
13 A. Well, since they worked there, they must have been.
14 Q. So I would agree, and I think you confirmed that but you never
15 used in the first person, that you yourself were not able to decode a
16 telegram; is that correct?
17 A. First of all, coded telegrams were rare, and second, I couldn't
18 decode them. I told you that already.
19 Q. Now, when you met with the Prosecution last week, you mentioned a
20 few names for the first time, and these are names that you had mentioned
21 to us before, and those are Miodrag Pisic, Goran Ilic, Dragan Stevanovic
22 and Milisav Cvijetinovic. So do you know these persons?
23 A. Those were the men in the signals unit, yeah, the signalsmen.
24 Q. And these persons or one of those persons would have been the one
25 who came in, one or ones, if there was more, who would have come in that
1 night to decode the telegram?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, that night there was also Vujo Lazarevic who was present.
4 You mentioned that in your interview?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it possible that he decoded the telegram?
7 A. Don't ask me such questions. I told you already who decoded the
8 telegram. Don't try to lead me to an answer that is not logical. It was
9 the signalsman who decoded it, not Vujo, not I, not somebody else.
10 Q. And I'm simply asking you, Mr. Lazarevic, could Vujo Lazarevic
11 decode a telegram? Do you know if he could do that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And do you know whether your commander could decode a telegram?
14 A. No, no.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you don't know, or no, he couldn't?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He couldn't. We didn't know how to
17 do that.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's clearer.
19 Mr. Bourgon, I'm told that we need to have a break in about five
20 minutes' time so whenever it's convenient for you. If it's more
21 convenient now, we'll have it now.
22 MR. BOURGON: We could stop right now, Mr. President. I thought
23 because we had a break maybe we could go on, but I'm --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
25 MR. BOURGON: Whatever you decide.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm told that's the position. Can I ask you how
2 much longer you need?
3 MR. BOURGON: I will stick with my initial estimate,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's an hour and a half. No, sorry, that's
6 two hours. And the Popovic team?
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe half an hour will be enough.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And Beara?
9 MR. OSTOJIC: 15 minutes approximately, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Miletic?
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this
12 witness, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Gvero?
14 MR. JOSSE: Nothing.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Pandurevic?
16 MR. SARAPA: Around 15 minutes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can we have a 20 minute break instead of
18 the usual 25? Is that agreeable with you, Mr. Bourgon?
19 MR. BOURGON: Absolutely, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Welcome back, Mr. Lazarevic. We'll try to finish as quickly as
1 possible with your testimony.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's relative, Mr. Bourgon.
3 MR. BOURGON:
4 Q. Today, you mentioned that you saw the coded telegram. And I'd
5 like you to try to remember whether you know who wrote the coded telegram
6 in the book. Do you know that?
7 A. I said already I don't know. Maybe even I did. I've said that
8 once already.
9 Q. And when you yourself arrive in the headquarters -- the command,
10 sorry, headquarters is a word I'm used to. But when you arrive in the
11 command, was the commander already there or did the commander come later?
12 A. I didn't arrive. I was there, sir. I was there. I didn't go
13 anywhere. The commander is the one who arrived.
14 Q. Because you referred earlier in your testimony that some people
15 were already in the command because you slept there. That applies to you.
16 You sleep in the command; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. I mean, regularly, not just that night but as a regular procedure,
19 you lived in the command during the war?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And do you recall how it is that you came about to take the book
22 in your hand and to read the book?
23 A. I don't know about the book. Don't ask me to remember something I
24 can't remember. Everybody who was there knew about the telegram. I said
25 that at the very outset. I don't know how else to explain it to you.
1 Q. Now, do you recall who gave the book to the commander so that he
2 could read the telegram?
3 A. No. I can't remember that.
4 Q. And do you recall when the signalmen came in, one or more, that we
5 don't know, but when the signalmen came in, whether they decoded the
6 telegram in the book or on a piece of paper beside the book?
7 A. I really don't know.
8 Q. But you testified that coded telegrams were rarely received by the
9 battalion command. What would have been the procedure, to write the
10 decoded version immediately following the coded version in the book or
12 A. I really don't know the details.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request, could Mr. Bourgon
14 please draw the microphone closer to himself?
15 MR. BOURGON: Will do, sorry.
16 Q. Now, when -- as part of your duties, because you describe your
17 duties as being the officer for general affairs or assistant commanders
18 for general affairs within the battalion command. Would I be right in
19 saying that this book was part of your responsibilities?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So if anyone has told us that maintaining this book is part of
22 your responsibilities, they were not correct?
23 A. Well, everybody wrote in that book. I didn't keep that record.
24 It's a simple notebook. It's not a logical question you're asking me.
25 Nobody is in charge of that notebook. It's just there by the telephone.
1 You jot down in it what you have to.
2 Q. Now, in your interview, and for the sake of my colleague I quote
3 from page 15 in the English version, you stated the following: "I was not
4 there when it arrived, but I -- my guess is that it came through the
5 telephone and it was coded."
6 A. And what is in dispute here? I told you all I knew about it.
7 Maybe I don't remember some details, but I told you all the rest.
8 Q. Well, would you allow for the possibility that you did not see the
9 telegram in the book because that's what you stated in your interview?
10 A. Don't ask me questions of this sort. I told you the telegram
11 came, and yesterday when you asked me I told you about it. I don't know
12 what other answer you want me to give you.
13 Q. Well, in your interview, a little later on, you were again --
14 again you are asked a question and now I quote from page 27 for the sake
15 of my colleague from the Prosecution, the question was, that's the
16 investigator from the Prosecution asking you this question, "Did you ever
17 see the telegram?" And your response was, "I didn't see it. But I know
18 it was registered in the notebook and it was coded and I'm sure it was
19 listed in the logbook." I'm simply asking you, do you allow for the
20 possibility that you did not see the telegram in the notebook?
21 A. I cannot allow that possibility.
22 Q. Then why is it simply -- can you explain why is it that you are
23 mentioning this for the first time in this testimony that you saw the
24 telegram when previously you told the investigators of the Prosecution
25 that you had not seen it?
1 A. I don't remember all the details, but I said yesterday and I'm
2 saying again, the telegram arrived and everybody saw it. I don't know how
3 many times I need to repeat it.
4 Q. Now, if I move on, today you were asked by my colleague from the
5 Prosecution whether you had seen the decoded version of the telegram, and
6 I think -- can you confirm that your answer was that you did not read the
7 decoded version of the telegram? Is that correct?
8 A. Well, I can't remember the details. I know the contents of the
9 telegram. The commander told us what it was about. I know the whole
10 thing. What does it matter whether I saw it myself or not? I know the
11 contents of the telegram. We all sat there at the command headquarters.
12 We were talking.
13 Q. And again when you say we all sat there, those are the four to six
14 persons that you mentioned but you don't remember the names?
15 A. Correct. I told you who the members of the command were at the
16 very beginning. I suppose all of them were there.
17 Q. And just to confirm that you yourself are only aware of one
18 telegram arriving from the brigade; is that correct?
19 A. As far as I know, there was only one.
20 Q. And it is also your testimony that there was only of course one
21 telegram sent from the battalion to the brigade; is that correct, in
23 A. As far as I remember, yes.
24 Q. Now, with regards to the company commanders, I take it that no
25 copy of the telegram was sent to the company commanders. Would that be
2 A. No.
3 Q. No meaning no copies were sent; is that correct?
4 A. No copy because they too were at the command. Why would they send
5 them a copy if they were present.
6 Q. Now, in your testimony yesterday, you mentioned the names of the
7 three company commanders as being Dragan Stevanovic, Miroslav Stankovic
8 and Milan Radic. I'd just like you to confirm that it is your testimony
9 that they came to the battalion command that night to discuss this
10 telegram; is that correct?
11 A. Well, it's not that the commander asked them. They were there,
12 and he told them that the orders would be rejected.
13 Q. So just to clarify, were they there when the telegram arrived? I
14 just want to clarify whether there was a request for them to come or did
15 they just happen to be there?
16 A. The commander summoned them.
17 Q. And it's your testimony that they came to the command that night?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Moving on to the response which was sent, you've already testified
20 as to what the contents of the discussions were to the best of your
21 recollection, but you don't recall who exactly sent the response, who
22 picked up the phone to send the response in the form of a telegram?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And was that telegram -- you've already testified that the
25 telegram was -- you don't know whether the response was coded or not; is
1 that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And was that telegram -- you've already testified that the
4 telegram was -- you don't know whether the response was coded or not; is
5 that correct?
6 A. I really don't know that.
7 Q. And would I be right in saying that that telegram was -- you don't
8 know whether it was first written in the book, in the notebook, do you
9 agree with that?
10 A. I said that all telegrams that arrived would be noted down in the
11 notebook. I don't know what other answer you want.
12 Q. Sorry, maybe my question was not clear. I'm talking about the
13 telegram that was sent. It would also be the procedure to write this
14 telegram in the book, would it not?
15 A. Yes. I've already said everything that was received or sent would
16 be noted down in that book.
17 Q. But you yourself did not see the response that was sent in the
18 book that night. Do you recall that?
19 A. Well, I can't remember such things. I know that there was an
20 order. It was an order. But I can't remember the details.
21 Q. Now, I'd like to refer to something which you mentioned in your
22 interview again concerning the reason why your commander went to Rocevic
23 in the morning. In your testimony today, you said that he went to Rocevic
24 to let them know that they would not execute the order. Do you recall
25 saying that this morning?
1 A. Of course I remember. How could I not remember?
2 Q. And in your interview, and I quote from page 18 in English, you
3 stated the following: The question posed to you was: "After discussion
4 with the company commanders, what was the result of that?" And your
5 response was, "I know that the following morning, our commander went to
6 Rocevic." I'd just like to clarify that it is your testimony that the
7 purpose or what led to your commander going to Rocevic is basically what
8 the company commanders told him, "We have to get rid of those prisoners in
9 the school," is that correct?
10 A. What do you mean "get rid of"? I've already said that everybody
11 was on the front line.
12 Q. I apologise, Mr. Lazarevic. I noticed myself that the words used
13 were not the best so I'm not talking about "get rid of". I'm talking of
14 that the company commanders, they were from the Rocevic area, and they
15 weren't happy with the fact that prisoners were in the school. So they
16 basically were very much interested in ensuring that the prisoners would
17 be moved from the school, and that's what they told to your commander; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Exactly correct.
20 Q. So I'm sorry if I used the wrong words. Now --
21 A. Never mind. Go ahead.
22 Q. Regarding the trip that your commander made to Rocevic that
23 morning, my colleague asked you how come you know that your commander went
24 there and of course, he told you before going that he was going to
25 Rocevic; is that correct?
1 A. Correct. Of course. You're asking me things that have nothing to
2 do with it.
3 Q. And when your commander came back from Rocevic, would I be right
4 in saying that he stated that he thought he would be called up to the
5 court and punished for his act of disobedience? Is that part of what he
6 mentioned to you when he came back?
7 A. Yes. That's correct.
8 Q. And in this regard, your commander did not ask you to keep a copy
9 of the telegram, just to protect him from future prosecutions against him?
10 A. At that time, nobody was thinking about it.
11 Q. And I'd just like to confirm that anything you know about the
12 events which took place in Rocevic on that next day are what was mentioned
13 to you by your commander and that you did not see any of that.
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. BOURGON: If we can move into private session, Mr. President,
17 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means. Let's go into private session,
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 13410-13427 redacted. Private session
7 [Open session]
8 MR. BOURGON:
9 Q. I will ask that question once again because now we are back into
10 public session. Knowing that your commander testified before this
11 Tribunal last week, did you see him at all, either just before travelling
12 to The Hague, in the days or weeks, or in The Hague?
13 A. Maybe I saw him in passing before, but I saw him here at
14 The Hague.
15 Q. And did you discuss any of these events with him?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And did you discuss these events with anyone else?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And when I say anyone else, I'm talking the persons that were
20 mentioned today or that were closely associated with the 2nd Battalion in
21 July of 1995.
22 A. I'm not in touch with anyone, as far as that is concerned. I'm
23 not in touch with any of the people who have been mentioned because I work
24 rather far away.
25 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. I have no further
1 questions. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Mr. Zivanovic?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lazarevic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. I'd like to ask you first of all to clarify.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you introduce yourself, please. Thank you.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
10 Q. [Interpretation] My name is Zoran Zivanovic, appearing in this
11 case for Vujadin Popovic.
12 My first question is: Could you clarify whether, in the building
13 of the command where your battalion was quartered, you had a room to
14 yourself where you worked?
15 A. [No interpretation]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, can I ask you to repeat your
18 answer, please? Because the interpreters didn't catch it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always worked in a room right
20 there in that building of the command.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Were there several rooms in the building?
24 A. It used to be a big tavern. There was a big office space where we
25 all worked and lived.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic and Mr. Zivanovic, please allow a
2 pause between question and answer because we are heading straight to
3 problems. Ms. Condon is usually very good at controlling you,
4 Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
6 Q. [Interpretation] One more thing: In addition to you, was there
7 anyone in charge of those administrative affairs at the battalion?
8 A. Zoran Jovic.
9 Q. My colleague, Mr. Bourgon, showed you a document, and you said you
10 were not the one who drafted it.
11 A. No. I did not, but I -- I know I didn't because it's not my
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Now it's you, Mr. Lazarevic. Please allow a short
14 pause before you answer Mr. Zivanovic's question. Don't jump straight
15 with your answer even before he's finished putting his question to you,
16 which is what you're doing. I will ask for your cooperation, which is
17 very important.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you maybe recognise the handwriting?
21 A. I think it's Zoran Jovic. I think it's his handwriting.
22 Q. Can you tell me, if you know, what that list was for?
23 A. I told you, it was a fiction. You would put a name next to a
24 name -- you would put a plus next to a name just in case there was
25 somebody from the command to inspect.
1 Q. Do you know if salaries were paid based on that?
2 A. Salary was paid to everybody who was mobilised, and the salary was
3 10, 20 deutschmark.
4 Q. Could we look at one document, P312? And if we could move to
5 private session, please.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that. Let's go into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 13432-13435 redacted. Private session
22 [Open session]
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I have just one more question to ask you about this. Do you know
25 how were documents safeguarded in your battalion? How were they kept?
1 A. Nothing special. I believe that all the paper work was taken to
2 the brigade. I don't know who the paper work was handed over because I
3 was not involved in that.
4 Q. Was it done periodically, for example, after a month or so?
5 A. I suppose so. I know that I would be returning payrolls to the
6 brigade. When all the people signed the payroll, I would return it to the
7 brigade. That's what I know because I was in charge of that. For the
8 rest, I don't know.
9 Q. Do you know who it was who decided when documents would be taken
10 to the brigade? Was it you?
11 A. No, no. It wasn't me. I don't know exactly who it was. I
12 suppose it was all under the commander's authority.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] This would be all. I don't have
14 any further questions.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. We've got ten minutes
16 before the break. Either Mr. Sarapa or Mr. Ostojic, whoever wishes to go
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, we'll have no questions
19 for this witness.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Then it has to be you, Mr. Sarapa, and
21 if you could finish in ten minutes, it's better than getting the witness
22 back after the break.
23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can I please have a minute or so to
24 consult with my client before I start cross-examining the witness?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means, Mr. Sarapa. And if you need to leave
1 the courtroom with him, consult him outside, we'll make sure that that is
2 possible. Go ahead.
3 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes. That would be much appreciated.
4 Thank you.
5 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa?
7 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, very much.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have questions for the witness. Do you wish
9 to --
10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] [In English] Yes, I have just a few
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Which will take you how long?
13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I think we will finish before the
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Let me introduce myself, sir, I represent General
17 Pandurevic. I will only have a few questions for you, very short
18 questions. Can the witness please be shown the document we have just
19 seen, which is P295? Page 354.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the document is under seal so we need to go
21 into private session or not broadcast, anyway, depending on the question.
22 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] And if we could go to private session
23 for my questions, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 13439-13440 redacted. Private session
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now, thank you. Go ahead.
11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You've already told us that private lorries were also engaged and
13 you mentioned a name of the person from Rocevic who owned these lorries
14 and they were used to take people to the front line. Was that an
15 agreement between the command and that person himself?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us whether Djoko Nikolic and Dragan Jovic who were
18 the owners of these lorries and who did that? Who were engaged in that
20 A. As far as I know, Djoko Nikolic was all the time and Dragan Jovic
21 on occasion, he used somebody else's lorry. But I don't know whose lorry
22 he used.
23 Q. Thank you. But that was a civilian lorry, wasn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I thank you. I have no further questions for you, sir.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Sarapa. Mr. Vanderpuye, do
2 you have a re-examination?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I don't, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 We don't have any further questions for you, Mr. Lazarevic, which
6 means you are free to go. Your testimony has finished, has ended. On
7 behalf of the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for having come over to
8 give testimony, and on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe journey back
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We'll have a 25-minute break now.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the position? The next witness is Witness
14 number 105. Are you in a position to start with him today or not?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I wanted to make sure of.
17 So you start with him tomorrow.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, yes, sir.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime can we do anything in these --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, there is one issue that I would -- I'd like
21 to bring up to the Court. I've been discussing it with my colleagues from
22 the Borovcanin team. Well, for many months now, we have been in
23 discussions with them letting them know that we planned to bring
24 eventually Alastair Graham to testify and to play the taped interview of
25 the Accused Borovcanin. They have indicated to us that they had believed
1 they were going to challenge the admissibility of that interview, and I
2 know that they are very busy and they haven't done that yet.
3 Now, for the eight days that we have leading up to the break, this
4 interview would be, and Alastair Graham would be a good witness because it
5 doesn't affect General Tolimir so much, and so we have -- well, several
6 days ago -- listed Alastair Graham as the -- as a witness for July, and
7 I've been in discussions with my colleagues and I know they are -- well,
8 I'm not exactly sure what they are planning on doing now but we -- the
9 sooner we know, I've always told them the sooner we know the better we are
10 for planning, and because if they do file a written challenge, that may
11 hold up our ability to put them in July. If they don't, then perhaps we
12 can talk about the logistics of 15 hours of interview, whether or not we
13 play the whole thing, which is usually the simplest but that will be -- I
14 don't know how the Court feels about that either but that's normally, when
15 we have an accused, we play the whole thing. But I may be able to reach
16 something with the Defence that we play parts of it that they want and
17 parts that we -- and of course you would get the whole thing but those are
18 the discussion that we are having, but we are getting so close to that
19 time period that I wanted to bring that to your attention because if those
20 15 hours are not something we can use, we are going to really be
21 scrambling for witnesses. But that's where we are, and I just wanted to
22 alert you to that issue.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, yes, thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: If you wish to comment now.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, very briefly. I mean we are in contact with
2 the Prosecution. We are discussing this issue for some period. It is not
3 just the question whether Mr. Graham will come at the beginning of July or
4 not. There are quite a few issue that we already were trying to resolve
5 and there is still -- well, I have to say, there is no answer from the
6 Prosecution side. We are discussing first the possibility -- we are
7 definitely confirming that we will oppose the admissibility of this
8 interview. It was our intention to come into an agreement with the
9 Prosecution about the transcript of this interview. Our case manager is
10 making great effort in order to review these interview, to review the
11 transcript, and we sent to the Prosecution our version of the transcript
12 of this interview and asked them for their reply. So far, we still
13 haven't received that yet.
14 It was my intention to discuss this again with the Prosecution.
15 This could save a lot of court time if we agree upon the transcript of the
16 interview. Maybe it won't be necessary, once it is decided in the case,
17 that the Trial Chamber decides to listen to it. Most of our objections to
18 the interview have to be reviewed by the Trial Chamber by looking at the
19 transcript itself. So we are trying now to discuss this with the
20 Prosecution and we will supply the Trial Chamber with the transcript,
21 which is agreed between the two sides, and we will draw the attention of
22 the Trial Chamber to some parts of this transcript for which we believe
23 that will be of interest in reaching a decision on this issue.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. I thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Mr. McCloskey?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, we do have their transcript and we
1 are working on it, and we have disclosed a revised transcript ourselves on
2 3 May and I don't really think we will have a problem coming to an
3 agreement on a transcript. That's not the kind of issue we would normally
4 have a problem with so that I don't see as a problem. And I don't know if
5 there is anything else they are requesting and I frankly don't understand
6 what they mean when they say there are portions that they are going to be
7 challenging, and whether that is -- has something to do with translation
8 or something about the way the question was asked or something else.
9 That's the first I've heard of that. But as you can see, this could get
10 complicated and they have not filed anything yet, so I'm just for planning
11 purposes, I welcome whatever they have in mind, but this is really making
12 planning difficult and we put it off until this time, but I don't think we
13 can put it off any longer and it's my intention to call this witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we have two elements that are
15 important. One is what Mr. Lazarevic has mentioned, that if we have a
16 formal application from you to bring forward this witness and a formal
17 objection to that request by the Borovcanin team, then the question of a
18 transcript comes into play, especially since it's being submitted that we
19 need to look at the transcript before we are able to decide. I would
20 imagine that that is partly true but that the motion itself can be decided
21 also on other issues. That being so, I think now the Borovcanin team have
22 been put on notice formally that it is the intention of the Prosecution to
23 bring this witness forward to give evidence at the earliest possible, so I
24 think it's the time for the Borovcanin team to articulate its objection,
25 and for the two of you to sit down and see if you can provide us with a
1 transcript which -- on which you agree, and if you don't -- if there are
2 parts of that transcript that you still don't agree upon, you identify
3 them to us so that we'll be in a position to know how best to proceed with
4 this matter.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. That will be no problem. And
6 I may suggest that -- the witness is actually 97 I'm told that's next in
7 line, and that witness may not take all of tomorrow and certainly I think
8 we could have Friday to actually orally argue this motion and to get out
9 the guts of this on Friday and if the Court wanted written submissions
10 after that, or if the Borovcanin team felt they needed written
11 submissions, that would be fine. But we could really move this ball
12 forward if we could do this orally on Friday.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Because I was getting a little bit
14 confused because you said Witness 97 and in the records I have it shows as
15 number 105 but then it shows also as Witness 97, you are correct, yes.
16 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, if I can very briefly reply, it is not just
18 the issue much the transcripts. Okay, I will definitely be in touch with
19 Mr. McCloskey and we will resolve this issue somehow. It was our
20 understanding based on one of the submissions, I cannot say I was kind of
21 taken aback this moment by raising this issue at this point, but basically
22 one of the submissions, it was said by the Prosecution that they intend to
23 put the interview of Mr. Borovcanin to their 65 ter list. So it was our
24 understanding that the ball is on Prosecution side, that they are to
25 initiate this by asking a formal by placing a formal motion to the Trial
1 Chamber to add Mr. Borovcanin's interview on the Rule 65 ter list of the
2 Prosecution. And then we will be able to give our reply and object at
3 this point. So that was our understanding. At this point I would like
4 some guide lines from the Trial Chamber whether this is the situation or
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't tell you that, but what is of concern to me
7 and I speak for myself, is that we are already at the 11th hour, and I
8 suggest that if you need to move on -- move this, that you do so as
9 quickly in a formal manner, because I don't expect the Borovcanin team to
10 take a position unless they know exactly what your intentions are, I mean,
11 and you've made them clear now, but I think you --
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll expect further from you. One needs to -- yes,
14 Mr. McCloskey? Sorry.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. I just would like to
16 clarify something. It's just the position of the Prosecution that we have
17 made our intentions regarding Alistair Graham and the interview with
18 Mr. Borovcanin crystal clear from 28 April 2006, where when we provided
19 our 65 ter list we stated that Graham will introduce and testify about the
20 statements taken from accused Borovcanin. This has been crystal clear to
21 the Defence for as long as this has been in their possession, and we have
22 been -- because we get along very well with the Defence, when are your
23 challenge coming, when, when, when? And they have, you know, as I say,
24 they have witness busy, they haven't done anything. So this is not me now
25 coming clear with this. This was clear many months ago and we have eight
1 days that we need to fill up and the time is here for that, and if they
2 would like to argue this on Friday, we are here to argue it.
3 These kinds of motions are argued every day in courts throughout
4 the world. We don't need long filings and long periods of responses.
5 This is something that we can get started on now and filings can follow,
6 and you can give us your direction on this. I would like to, if we can,
7 get going on it because that will take some of the pressure of trying to
8 find witnesses to fill those other dates as well as it's time to move.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. When I mentioned in some of
12 Prosecution submissions it was stated that it will be a formal request to
13 amend Rule 65 ter list, now I can maybe be more specific. It is
14 scheduling order for witnesses for the month of July 2007 which we
15 received and here it says that "interview of Ljubomir Borovcanin 20
16 February 2002 and 11 March 2002 will be subject of motion to amend 65 ter
17 exhibit list." So this was the starting point for our position.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not get bogged down by technicalities. We are
19 fixing Friday as a date to have this debated, where the formal request
20 will be made and discussed, particularly by you, Mr. Lazarevic, and of
21 course the Prosecution. We've got only a couple of minutes left.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We've got a couple of minutes left. There are two
24 pending motions of which the Trial Chamber is now going to issue oral
25 decisions. These are basically moot motions, but for the record we have
1 to declare them so.
2 Firstly on 11 June counsel for accused Beara and Nikolic filed the
3 joint defence motion seeking leave to reply and reply to Prosecution
4 response to joint defence request on behalf of Beara, Ljubisa Beara, and
5 Drago Nikolic for certification of the Trial Chamber's decision on defence
6 motion seeking reconsideration of two Trial Chamber decisions related to
7 Witness 108. Earlier on the same day, the Trial Chamber had issued its
8 decision on joint Beara and Nikolic request for certification to appeal
9 the Trial Chamber's decision denying reconsideration of two decisions
10 related to Witness PW 108, with a consequence that the motion seeking
11 leave to reply is therefore moot, and it is being declared so.
12 Secondly, on the 22nd of June, the Prosecution filed a motion for
13 leave to amend the 65 ter list with five expert reports related to Witness
14 Dr. Barr. It sought leave for 65 ter list of experts to be supplemented
15 with five expert reports written by and relevant to her testimony. She
16 testified on Monday and Tuesday of this week. The five expert reports
17 which were subject of the motion were admitted at the end of her
18 testimony. In the circumstances, this motion, too, is now moot and being
19 declared so.
20 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00. Yes,
21 Mr. Bourgon, be quick. We've only got one minute left.
22 MR. BOURGON: Is there anything coming from the Registry
23 concerning the consequences of the possibility of a joinder and if not, we
24 will be in touch with the Trial Chamber's legal officer because the
25 Prosecution's case needs to be extended passed 15 August in order for the
1 legal aid regime to be --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: But that we can take care of --
3 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and I think we can coordinate, and I don't know
5 if there is a letter from the registrar to you in the offing. I haven't
6 got it. But I'll try to find out. We stand adjourned until tomorrow
7 morning at 9.00. Thank you. One moment, because Mr. Vanderpuye doesn't
8 agree with the adjournment.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I just we don't have
10 any documents to tender in relation to the testimony of the witness that
11 had previously been discharged.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We can deal with it tomorrow.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.50 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of June,
16 2007, at 9.00 a.m.