Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14866

 1                          Thursday, 6 September 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar, and good morning,

 6    everybody.

 7            Could you kindly call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9            This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin

10    Popovic et al.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.

12            For the record, all the accused are here.  From amongst the

13    Defence teams, I only notice the absence of Mr. Haynes and Ms. Condon.

14    The Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey -- and also Mr. Meek.  The Prosecution is

15    Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer.  That's it.

16            Witness and Magistrate and Legal Assistant and Registrar, Madam

17    Registrar, I welcome you back.  We shall continue now with the testimony.

18            Witness, may I just remind you of two things before you start.

19    First is that you are still testifying pursuant to your solemn declaration

20    of yesterday, and second is you are reminded of your rights against

21    self-incrimination that I explained to you yesterday.

22            Having said that, I will now leave you in the hands of

23    Mr. Lazarevic.

24            Mr. Lazarevic.

25                          WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-100 [Resumed]

Page 14867

 1                          [The witness testified via videolink]

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Good morning, Your Honour.

 3            Good morning to the witness and to His Honour, the Magistrate.

 4                          Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:  [Continued]

 5       Q.   Witness, could you just confirm for me because I haven't heard

 6    your voice yet this morning, I am not sure I am receiving the signal from

 7    (redacted), and I am on the right channel.  Can you just confirm you can

 8    hear me?

 9       A.   Yes, I can hear you.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Please try to be careful, being careful even in

11    avoiding certain courtesy.

12            Mr. Lazarevic, we will redact that.

13            MR. LAZAREVIC:  I became aware of it the moment I it, but,

14    unfortunately, it was too late.

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Don't worry, it happens.

16            MR. LAZAREVIC:

17       Q.   Sir, I would like to continue where we left off yesterday, and I

18    would like to pick up just one detail I noticed on the record.

19            Speaking on page 21 of yesterday's transcript --

20            MR. THAYER:  We are not getting the translation of the questions

21    by Mr. Lazarevic.

22                          [Technical Difficulty]

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  We will check that immediately.

24            We have a technical problem, Witness.  The reporter is not

25    receiving translation of Mr. Lazarevic's words.

Page 14868

 1            Mr. Lazarevic, can I ask you to say something again in your own

 2    language?

 3            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Witness, can you hear me loud and

 4    clear?

 5            THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.

 6            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you.  It seems we have resolved this little

 7    hitch.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Proceed, please.

 9            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Sir, since there was no interpretation, I'll have to ask the same

11    question again.  We are now talking about the event when you left the

12    Jahorina Centre to Srebrenica; and speaking of page 21, line 1 of

13    yesterday's transcript, you said that you had been informed you were going

14    to Potocari.

15            You will agree with me that, actually, when you left Mount

16    Jahorina, nobody told you specifically you are going to Potocari.  They

17    actually told you, you were heading for the area of Srebrenica; is that

18    correct?

19       A.   That probably would be right, yes.

20       Q.   That's what I assumed.  I just wanted to clear up that detail.

21            Also in yesterday's evidence, page 21, lines 3 to 5, you said that

22    before leaving for Srebrenica, you and your colleagues from the Jahorina

23    Centre were addressed by somebody higher than Jevic.  Do you remember that

24    part of your testimony?

25       A.   Yes, I do.

Page 14869

 1       Q.   As I was looking at the statement you gave to the Prosecution -

 2    that's 7D00645, for the record - on page 6 in the B/C/S version, I found -

 3    and it's page 6 in English as well - you said that the person who

 4    addressed you at that time was the commander of all special units.  Do you

 5    recall saying that?

 6       A.   Not -- to be quite honest with you, no, but I'm sure that it was a

 7    higher rank than Mr. Jevic.

 8       Q.   Perhaps I can refresh your memory by quoting that passage from

 9    your statement.  It's page 6:  "A man who was introduced to us as the

10    commander of all special police forces of Republika Srpska addressed a

11    speech to us.  I saw him for the first and the last time."

12            Does this help you recall this part of your statement?

13       A.   Yes.  I can see it on my statement.

14       Q.   Is that how it happened?

15       A.   To be quite honest with you, the officer was introduced to us as

16    the highest-ranking officer; and, at this stage, I cannot recall what was

17    his full rank, but he was definitely, by the looking of Mr. Jevic, how he

18    was addressing the gentleman, that he was addressing, that gentleman was a

19    higher-ranking officer than Mr. Jevic, yes.

20       Q.   Would there be any reason for you to change this part of this

21    statement at this moment and to say that he was not actually the commander

22    of all special police forces?  Would you change this part of your

23    statement?

24       A.   In which sense?

25       Q.   In the sense that you would no longer testify that that man was

Page 14870

 1    the commander of all special police forces.

 2       A.   Since I cannot properly remember at this stage, I wouldn't like to

 3    change it.

 4       Q.   Very well.  Just one more question with regard to this gentleman.

 5    To the best of your recollection, could you please describe him, that man

 6    who is the commander of all special units, how old he was, his build, the

 7    colour of his hair, his face, anything?

 8       A.   To be quite honest with you, I cannot recollect the image of the

 9    gentleman because it was a brief visit.  It was really in a short period

10    of time, and we have had been still in a shock in the past happening.  And

11    we just -- I just could not recall that gentleman.

12       Q.   All right.  Of course, I won't insist if you can't remember.

13            Before that gentleman addressed you, the commander of all special

14    units, and Jevic as well, had anyone at the centre ever mentioned the

15    possibility of your going to Srebrenica?  In other words, before this, did

16    you know you were going to Srebrenica?

17       A.   No.

18            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you.

19            [In English] Your Honours, I heard the witness saying "no" very --

20    oh, now it's okay.

21       Q.   [Interpretation] When you testified yesterday on page 21, lines 18

22    and 19 of the transcript, you said you had all assembled, boarded the

23    buses, and left.  Do you recall that part of your testimony?

24       A.   Yes, I do.

25       Q.   Nevertheless, in your statement given to the Office of the

Page 14871

 1    Prosecutor - and that's on page 6 in B/C/S and page 7 of the English - you

 2    stated to the Prosecution that the 2nd Company remained at the centre in

 3    Jahorina because it had been said that they were going to Trnovo the next

 4    day.  And to refresh your memory, I will quote the passage to you:  "Three

 5    buses arrived and the 1st Company entered the buses.  We were told that

 6    Company 2 would stay and leave for Trnovo the next day."

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Lazarevic.

 8            Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 9            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I would just ask my friend to read the

10    next sentence from this portion.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

12            MR. LAZAREVIC:  By all means, I believe that -- by all means.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

14            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Continued:  "In fact, I saw two of their officers in a car on the

16    road to Konjevic Polje a few days later, and also in Konjevic Polje, the

17    last day of our mission."

18            I've just read this entire paragraph, but I'm only interested in

19    this first detail.  Did only the 1st Company leave in three buses;

20    whereas, the 2nd Company stayed behind; and according to information

21    available at the time, they were supposed to leave for Trnovo the next

22    day?  That's what I would like to know.

23       A.   Yes, that is correct.

24       Q.   Thank you.  And that day, in the afternoon, you arrived at

25    Bilalovac village, the Bratunac municipality.  You put up at the

Page 14872

 1    schoolhouse and continued the next day.  Is that the gist of your

 2    testimony?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   So that night, when you were at the schoolhouse in Bilalovac

 5    village, can you recall whether a certain member -- a certain number of

 6    the members of your unit escaped, ran a wall across the Drina River?

 7       A.   I know that there has been few escapes, but did it happen the

 8    first night?  I cannot recall it at this stage.  But there has been one or

 9    two escapes, yes.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Generally speaking, would you agree with me that your

11    unit, that is, the Jahorina Centre Unit, was not well prepared or well

12    trained enough for any serious action?

13       A.   I would agree with that, yes.

14       Q.   And if I understood your evidence correctly, practically all

15    members of your unit were brought from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

16    to the Republika Srpska against their will.

17       A.   Yes, that is correct.

18       Q.   Thank you.  Let us now move on to the following day.

19            Sometime around 9.00 in the morning, you took the road from the

20    place we have discussed so far across the Yellow Bridge in the direction

21    of Potocari, and you said it took you two to three hours to reach

22    Potocari.  So I conclude that you arrived approximately around noon.  Is

23    that correct?

24       A.   Yes, I would say so.

25       Q.   Could I take you back to the moment when you were leaving from

Page 14873

 1    Zuti Most, the Yellow Bridge.  Speaking about that yesterday, you

 2    mentioned there was a Dutch check-point there.  Do you recall that?

 3       A.   Yes, I do.

 4       Q.   We have heard a lot of evidence about these events; and just to

 5    familiarise you a bit, we used to refer to this point as the Dutch

 6    observation point "Papa." So when I say "Papa," I will refer to the Dutch

 7    observation post near the Yellow Bridge.  Do you understand that?

 8       A.   Yes, I do.

 9       Q.   On your way to Potocari, you passed by the Observation Post Papa;

10    is that correct?

11       A.   That is correct, yes.

12       Q.   Passing by that observation post, did there occur any hostilities

13    between your unit and the Dutch soldiers manning that post?  Did you open

14    fire at them?  Did they open fire at you?  Was there any exchange of

15    threats?  Any kind of hostility whatsoever?

16       A.   Not to my knowledge.

17       Q.   Would I be right in assuming that had there occurred any shooting

18    at the Dutch observation post, or had they shot at you, that would

19    certainly be something you would remember?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Thank you.  Now, moving on, your unit reached the Dutch base,

22    where you saw Dutch troops.  The Dutch soldiers that you saw, can you

23    confirm that some of them were in full combat gear; whereas, others were

24    wearing shorts and T-shirts only?

25       A.   Yes, that would be correct.

Page 14874

 1       Q.   As your unit wasn't sufficiently well trained, straightaway upon

 2    your arrival in Potocari, you scattered around the area, and it was only

 3    after a certain amount of time had gone by that you succeeded in rallying

 4    your ranks again and deploy; is that what happened?  Is that how it was?

 5       A.   Can you just clarify that question for me, please?

 6       Q.   Yes, of course.  On page 7 of your statement, it's 7 in the B/C/S

 7    and also 7 in the English version.  Speaking about these events, you said

 8    the following:  "We were not a well-trained group, and we scattered around

 9    as soon as we arrived."

10            Do you stand by that statement, as you gave it to the OTP?

11       A.   Yes, I do.

12       Q.   Thank you.  You also explained to us where you were that day; that

13    is to say, around the Dutch base near a little river.  And you said more

14    or less that you did nothing special, but I'd like to ask you about one

15    detail there.

16            You had communication with members of the Dutch Battalion.  Did

17    you talk to those soldiers?  Did you socialise a little with them that

18    day?

19       A.   Yes, I did.

20       Q.   And one more thing for the record, so that we can have that

21    clarified.  From that place where you were then -- or rather, let me put

22    it this way:  From the place you were, you couldn't see the asphalt road

23    passing by the base, could you?

24       A.   It was in distance.  It was not in a close vicinity, but I could

25    see -- I could not see it, virtually, but I could see the vehicles in

Page 14875

 1    distance.

 2       Q.   Very well.  I'd like to ask you a couple of questions now in

 3    relation to the members of the Dutch Battalion over there.  Did anybody

 4    order you to disarm the members of the Dutch Battalion?

 5       A.   Not to me, no.

 6       Q.   I assume that you didn't do that at your own initiative, I mean,

 7    you or members of your unit, your colleagues from Jahorina.

 8       A.   They were told to us, but, sir, I can only speak on my behalf and

 9    the events that happened to me and what orders, if any, I've been given.

10    I cannot speak for anybody else.

11       Q.   Yes.  I understand that, but you didn't hear any order given that

12    the members of the Dutch Battalion should be disarmed, did you?

13       A.   No, not me [Realtime transcript read in error "to me"].

14       Q.   Did you --

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  One moment, because the last line of

16    the transcript may be misleading.

17            I distinctly heard the witness say, "No, not me," but the

18    transcript says, "No, not to me."  At this point, particularly, the

19    obvious reason why the question was put by Mr. Lazarevic, I think we need

20    to correct that, but I stand to be corrected by the witness if I am not

21    right, if I am not correct.

22            The question to you was whether you heard any order given, not

23    necessarily to you, but maybe to others that the members of the Dutch

24    Battalion should be disarmed.  Did you hear any such order?

25            THE WITNESS:  No, I haven't.

Page 14876

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3       Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.  Now, my next question is

 4    this:  Did you, by threat of weapons or in any other way, prevent the

 5    members of the Dutch Battalion from leaving the base?

 6       A.   No, I haven't.

 7       Q.   Did you perhaps have any such order to prevent them from leaving

 8    the base?

 9       A.   Not to my best recollection, no.

10       Q.   Thank you very much.  And just one more question with respect to

11    this:  Did you personally have an order to separate the military-able men,

12    Muslims, from their families in Potocari?

13       A.   As I said yesterday, no, I haven't, and I haven't seen any of

14    those.

15       Q.   Thank you very much.  According to your testimony, you remained in

16    Potocari roughly up until 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening.  Is that right?

17       A.   To my best recollection, yes.

18       Q.   Speaking before this Tribunal yesterday - and that is on page 37

19    of the transcript, lines 18 and 19 - you said that you think that you were

20    in Potocari on the 13th of July, or rather, that it could have been

21    between the 13th and 15th of July.  Do you remember having said that?

22       A.   Yes, I do.

23       Q.   And further on, on that same page of the transcript, you said that

24    you, in fact, believe that you left Jahorina on the 13th of July and that

25    you arrived in Potocari, in fact, on the 14th of July.  That's on the same

Page 14877

 1    page of the transcript.  Do you remember having said that, that part of

 2    your testimony?

 3       A.   Yes, I do, and I did say as well that I'm not sure about the date.

 4       Q.   Yes, that's how I understood it, too.  Now, before this Court, we

 5    had an occasion to -- we have had occasion to hear many testimonies and to

 6    see many documents, from which we can see that the evacuation of civilians

 7    from Potocari lasted for two days, that is to say, on the 12th and 13th of

 8    July, and that it was completed only on the 13th of July in the afternoon.

 9            I'd like now to go through your statement again and try to

10    determine the time, where you were exactly, during those two days.  On

11    page 8 - and that is the Prosecution statement that I'm referring to now.

12    It is 8 in the B/C/S version and 9 of the English version - you say that

13    on that day when you were in Potocari, you assumed that all the people had

14    been evacuated because you did not notice a single refugee when you were

15    moving around, nor did you hear anything unusual.  Do you remember that

16    part of your testimony?

17       A.   Yes, I do.

18       Q.   And do you confirm that that is correct; right?

19       A.   To my best knowledge, yes.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Lazarevic.

21            Mr. Thayer.

22            MR. THAYER:  If we could just have some clarification about the

23    time of the day, and I think that is in that part of the statement, and

24    that just might help with where exactly we're talking about.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

Page 14878

 1            Mr. Lazarevic.

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] Then I will read the whole paragraph

 3    just for my colleague.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Go ahead.

 5            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] "I left Potocari between 2100

 6    hours and 2200 hours.  We all gathered in front of the compound, where we

 7    stayed for about half an hour, and then left the area by bus.  I assumed

 8    that all the people had been evacuated because I did not see any refugee,

 9    nor did I hear anything special."

10            [In English] Does this satisfy my colleague's inquiry?

11            MR. THAYER:  It does.  Thank you, Mr. President.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

13            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Sir, we've just read out that entire paragraph.  I certainly did

15    not wish to disorient you in any way by just showing you a portion of

16    that.  It speaks for itself, but my question to you is the following:  Had

17    it happened that in Potocari, at that point in time when you set out, had

18    there been ten or more thousand refugees, you would certainly have had to

19    have noticed that; right?

20       A.   In that vicinity, yes.

21       Q.   Precisely.  And would you agree with me when I say that on that

22    day, regardless, of course, of the date that that was, when in the evening

23    hours you left Potocari, that the evacuation of the population had already

24    been completed?

25       A.   From that point, yes.

Page 14879

 1       Q.   A large number of exhibits have been presented before this

 2    Tribunal, showing that the evacuation of the civilians had been completed

 3    by the 13th of July.  Now, would you agree with me, then, that the date of

 4    your stay in Potocari could have been precisely that day, the 13th of

 5    July, when the evacuation was over?

 6       A.   It might be, but my belief is we went in --

 7       Q.   Very well.  That's fine.  We won't pursue the point.

 8            Testifying yesterday before this Tribunal, you spoke about the

 9    White House, Bila Kuca; and looking at the transcript carefully, I noticed

10    that this "Bila Kuca" was written in inverted commas, and it's page 40,

11    line 1 to 2.  Where did you get this term "White House" when you asked

12    about the house you saw?  How did you come to term it that way?

13       A.   A photo has been shown to me when I had been giving the statement

14    about the house, and I did recognise the house in a photo.

15       Q.   Were you told at the time that it was the White House?

16       A.   To my recollection, the house was in white colour, so it's normal

17    to be a white house.

18       Q.   Yes, but there are many houses that are white.  Why did you select

19    this term, personally, "The White House"?  You could have just said it's

20    that house.  Why did you term it that way, "the White House"?

21       A.   I did confirm that the house that I did mention in my testimony is

22    the house that I have seen.  I don't recall coming to the term, but the

23    house is the house.

24            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Witness, and one moment, Mr. Lazarevic.

Page 14880

 1            Mr. Thayer.

 2            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I really don't want to continue to

 3    intervene, but I notice that at page 14, line 7 - and I didn't want to

 4    interrupt this discussion about the White House; I wanted to let that

 5    finish - it appears that the witness, from the transcript, didn't finish

 6    his answer.  I believe I did hear an answer.  I obviously don't want to

 7    say what I thought I heard, but I would ask if the witness could complete

 8    the answer or if he had more to say to that question.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let me check with you.  Line 7 is our line 7.  What

10    do you have in your line 7?

11            MR. THAYER:  Just pardon me.  It just scrolled up.  I need to

12    freeze it for a second.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, because I believe you're referring to line 3

14    and not line 7.

15            MR. THAYER:  In our transcript, the previous question was:  "Now,

16    would you agree with me, then, that the date of your stay in Potocari

17    could be precisely that day, the 13th of July, when the evacuation was

18    over?"

19            The answer is:  "It might be, but my belief is we went in --"

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  And so we're speaking of page 14, line 3 and not

21    line 7.

22            Witness, I don't know if you have been following.  You were asked

23    the following question by Mr. Lazarevic:  "A large number of exhibits have

24    been presented before this Tribunal, showing that the evacuation of the

25    civilians had been completed by the 13th of July.  Now, would you agree

Page 14881

 1    with me, then, that the date of your stay in Potocari could have been

 2    precisely that day, the 13th of July, when the evacuation was over?"

 3            Now, according to our transcript, we have an unfinished sentence.

 4    I did hear you complete it, but it doesn't show in the transcript.

 5            You said:  "It might be, but my belief is that we went in --"

 6            Could you complete that sentence, please?

 7            THE WITNESS:  That we went in first.  I meant that we were the

 8    first unit that actually came into the area of the Dutch compound.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.

10            Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

11            Mr. Lazarevic, you may proceed.

12            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

13       Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, after that digression, let's go back to

14    the subject of the White House, if that's no problem.

15            As far as I understood it yesterday, understood your testimony

16    yesterday, my colleague Mr. Thayer asked you where, in relation to the

17    base, the United Nations base, was that White House.  And your answer was

18    that as far as you remember, it was on the other side of the road.  Do you

19    remember saying that yesterday?

20       A.   Yes, I do.

21       Q.   And let's just clarify the answer you gave to Mr. Thayer.  Was it

22    a house that was immediately across from the UNPROFOR base, the entrance

23    to the UNPROFOR base on the other side of the road?

24       A.   I can't remember.

25       Q.   Let's try and help you with that.  In the statement you gave to

Page 14882

 1    the investigators of the Prosecution, and this is to be found on page 8 of

 2    the B/C/S and also on page 8 of the English text, you say the following:

 3             "I came across Jevic.  He was standing in front of the house

 4    which was directly across the entrance to the base."

 5            Does that refresh your memory, that it was directly opposite the

 6    entrance to the base?

 7       A.   Yes, it does.

 8       Q.   And that's correct, is it, what I've just quoted?

 9       A.   To my best knowledge, yes.

10       Q.   Thank you.  As we've cleared that up now, let's move on.

11            The next day, you were free.  You spent your time in the school in

12    Bilalovac.  And in the afternoon, you were deployed along the road between

13    Kravica and Konjevic Polje, that communication line; is that right?

14       A.   That is correct, yes.

15       Q.   And on that road, to the best of your recollections, you stayed

16    for four or five days; right?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   I'd like now -- we're talking about that first day which you spent

19    on the road.  Well, yesterday you testified about the fact that on that

20    day, in a meadow you saw a large number of prisoners.  I'd like now to

21    clarify what you mean by "a larger number" or "a large number of

22    prisoners."

23            Now, speaking about how many prisoners there were in your

24    deposition given at the Magistrate's Office in the country you are

25    residing, on page 28 on the B/C/S version and on page 30 of the English

Page 14883

 1    version, you said that:

 2            "In the meadow, there were about 100 of them."

 3            Do you stand by that, by that statement given in your deposition,

 4    with respect to the number of prisoners in the meadow?

 5       A.   It was an estimate.  How accurate it was, I don't know.  And I

 6    have previously said that I'm not that great with the estimates.  And it

 7    was a large number of people, yes.

 8       Q.   Very well.  And according to your recollections, these prisoners,

 9    during that day and the following day, were taken by buses which were

10    moving in the direction of Konjevic Polje; is that right?

11       A.   That's correct, yes.

12       Q.   And according to your testimony, on that first day, towards the

13    evening, there were about 10 to 15 prisoners left in the meadow, and the

14    buses had stopped coming, so then you went to Aleksa to ask him what you

15    should do with the remaining prisoners.  Is that a correct description of

16    what happened?

17       A.   Not entirely.  What happened was it was an evening coming, the

18    buses had stopped coming and passing by, and a few of us went to ask when

19    the next bus going to come to pick up remaining prisoners.

20       Q.   Fine.  I don't see any difference in substance, and please believe

21    me that it wasn't my intention to say that you agreed with me about

22    something that you did not think the same way as I did.  But from this

23    answer, too, I can conclude that Aleksa was not the person who came up to

24    you or the group, the other recruits.  You went up to him to ask him what

25    was going to happen and whether any more buses would be arriving; isn't

Page 14884

 1    that right?

 2       A.   That is correct, yes.

 3       Q.   And then Aleksa, as an answer to your question in actual fact,

 4    said that you should kill the prisoners; is that right?

 5       A.   That is correct, yes.

 6       Q.   You did not hear Aleksa informing anyone about the fact that the

 7    prisoners had remained in the meadow without anybody coming to pick them

 8    up; you didn't personally hear that or see that, did you?

 9       A.   No, I did not.

10       Q.   You also did not hear anybody say to Aleksa that those prisoners

11    should be killed; that's right, isn't it?

12       A.   To my knowledge, yes, that's right.

13       Q.   So when you spoke about this yesterday, when you said that it was

14    your assumption that whether or not the prisoners would be liquidated or

15    not, that somebody else must have decided at a higher level than Aleksa,

16    that was just your supposition; right?

17       A.   Yes, that was common sense.

18       Q.   While we're on the subject of common sense, you cannot exclude the

19    possibility that Aleksa perhaps decided this himself on the spur of the

20    moment, without anybody having given him the order?

21       A.   No, I cannot exclude that, no.

22       Q.   Thank you very much.  As far as I understood your testimony

23    yesterday, with respect to this incident, about five or six members of

24    your unit took part.  Is that right?

25       A.   That is correct, yes.

Page 14885

 1       Q.   And as to one of them, you said that his nickname was "Crnogorac"

 2    or the Montenegrin.  Do you remember that?

 3       A.   Yes, I do.

 4       Q.   Can you now tell us whether you know the name and surname, the

 5    place of residence, or any closer identification of this man?

 6       A.   No, sir.

 7       Q.   And what about the rest, the other members, the other four or five

 8    members of your unit who you say participated in that?  Can you give us

 9    the name and surname, date of birth, address, or anything else that could

10    help us in the identification of these other men?

11       A.   No, sir.

12       Q.   Can we then note that apart from this Montenegrin, not in a single

13    of your statements given so far have you given the name, or surname, or

14    any details of the persons who participated in the killing of prisoners?

15       A.   That is correct, yes.

16       Q.   From your evidence yesterday, I understood that you in fact did

17    not see the act of execution of prisoners, yourself.  It was already dark,

18    it was misty.  You just heard the shots, didn't you?

19       A.   That is correct, yes.

20       Q.   And after the shooting stopped, you did not go there to see what

21    had happened; is that the case?

22       A.   That is correct, yes.

23       Q.   In the deposition you gave in your country of residence, I found,

24    on page 22 in B/C/S and page 26 in English, that on the next day you found

25    out -- so you didn't see it personally, you learned -- that there was not

Page 14886

 1    a single body, dead body, in the meadow.  Do you recall that part of your

 2    deposition?

 3       A.   Yes, I do.

 4       Q.   So you never saw the bodies of the 10 or 15 men who had been in

 5    the meadow; is that correct?

 6       A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Can we just clear up now one more thing that remained

 8    ambivalent in your testimony yesterday?

 9            You already confirmed that on that road, you spent some four or

10    five days.  Could you now just tell me, did you spend the nights on the

11    road as well or did you perhaps go to the schoolhouse to sleep in

12    Bilalovac or somewhere else?

13       A.   We had been there 24 hours, day and night.

14       Q.   Thank you.  That's clear now.  It wasn't quite clear from the

15    record yesterday.

16            Now, just a couple of more questions regarding this Aleksa man you

17    mentioned.  Was "Aleksa" his name or his nickname, if you know?

18       A.   I don't know.  That was the name that was given to us, that he

19    told to us.  Was that his real name, nickname, alias or something else, I

20    don't know.

21       Q.   Thank you.  From this answer, I conclude that you would probably

22    be unable to tell us his name, surname, date of birth, place of residence,

23    or any detail that could help identify him.

24       A.   Yes, that is correct.

25       Q.   You testified yesterday that one of your colleagues from the

Page 14887

 1    training centre at Jahorina, his colleague [Realtime transcript read in

 2    error "a woman"] was wounded.  Having reviewed the record, I believe some

 3    things remained insufficiently clear, so can I take you back to this

 4    event.

 5            I will lead you by my questions so that we can establish a time

 6    line.

 7            MR. LAZAREVIC:  There is one correction for the transcript. It's

 8    on page 22, line 7.  It says "a woman was wounded," and actually I said

 9    his colleague was wounded.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  And do you know also if his colleague was a man or a

11    woman?

12            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, I can make a wild guess that --

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Right.  Let's correct that.  I mean, that will be

14    corrected in due course, Mr. Lazarevic.  Let's proceed, please.  Thank

15    you.

16            Let's proceed please.  Thank you.

17            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18       Q.   Sir, let us try to establish a timeline.  One Muslim fighter came

19    out, saying he wanted to surrender; is that correct?

20       A.   That is correct, yes.

21       Q.   As he was approaching your colleague from the Jahorina Training

22    Centre, instead of surrendering, that fighting man, or as you said, you

23    are not sure how to term him, threw a hand grenade at your colleague,

24    wounding him; after which, your colleague remained an invalid, remained

25    disabled; is that correct?

Page 14888

 1       A.   Yes.  He did throw the grenade, and a colleague was wounded, and

 2    we have heard later, when the ambulance took him, that he remained

 3    severely disabled.

 4       Q.   Could you now remember, roughly, where on that road this incident

 5    took place?

 6       A.   Roughly, about 100 metres from my point where I was, towards the

 7    Konjevic Polje.

 8       Q.   Right.  I suppose that if you were at a distance of 100 metres,

 9    you were able to hear the explosion loud and clear.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Thank you.  From your testimony yesterday, on page 55 of the

12    transcript, I understood that you heard about prisoners being liquidated

13    in Kravica several days after being placed on that road.  Is that correct?

14       A.   Yes, during that five-day stay on the road, yes.

15       Q.   Right.  And this was second-hand information.  You did not see

16    that personally.  You were not there.  You heard about it from other

17    members of your unit, didn't you?

18       A.   Yes, that is correct.

19       Q.   If you can recall, could you give us the name, surname, nickname,

20    place of residence of any member of your unit who might have told you

21    about this?

22       A.   No, sir.

23       Q.   On the way back, after your deployment on the road, you passed by

24    the warehouse in Kravica.  You were able to see it, weren't you?

25       A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 14889

 1       Q.   I suppose that you also passed it on the way to the road to be

 2    deployed.  You could see it then as well, couldn't you?

 3       A.   Probably, yes, but I didn't pay attention to anything.

 4       Q.   All right.  If I can just try to remind you of certain details,

 5    because I suppose you were not paying attention to that in particular.

 6    But in your statement given to the OTP, on page 12 in B/C/S, page 13 in

 7    English, you said that you did not notice anything special about the

 8    warehouse, and the traces that were visible were old and greyish.  Does

 9    that help you remember what you said?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And that was the case.  There was nothing on the facade of that

12    warehouse that would indicate that something unusual, out of the ordinary,

13    had happened inside.  Is that correct?

14       A.   That is correct.

15       Q.   Thank you.  I have some questions related to your status in July

16    1995.

17            Have you ever received an official ID from the Ministry of the

18    Interior, the MUP, of Republika Srpska?

19       A.   No, sir.

20       Q.   Nor did you receive the policeman's badge that is also a kind of

21    ID, did you?

22       A.   No, sir.

23       Q.   Nor did you ever conclude a contract, an employment contract, with

24    the MUP of Republika Srpska?

25       A.   No, sir.

Page 14890

 1       Q.   Nor did you receive any kind of written document, such as a

 2    decision confirming that you were admitted into the police force of

 3    Republika Srpska?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Just one more question on this topic before we look at a document.

 6            In your military service book, was the time you spent in the

 7    training centre in Jahorina entered?  Maybe I should have asked you first

 8    whether there were entries made at all in your service book, but could you

 9    answer this one, please?

10       A.   Can you please repeat the question?

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14891

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.  I think you have the same concerns

 6    that I have.  Should we be in open session for this or should we be in

 7    closed session, because I think this area of the witness's testimony was

 8    covered in private session yesterday.  Please check me out, but that's my

 9    recollection.

10            Yes, Mr. Thayer.

11            MR. THAYER:  Precisely, Mr. President.  And you're probably on top

12    of this, but we have some redactions that I think we'll need to make in

13    the transcript already on this.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

15            And are you proceeding on this part of your questions or this area

16    of cross-examination or are you finished with it?

17            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] Your Honour, I just have a couple of

18    more questions in this respect, then I would ask to have our break a bit

19    earlier just to consult, then I will have additionally ten to 15 minutes,

20    and then that would conclude my examination.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22            Mr. Thayer --

23            MR. LAZAREVIC:  But I believe we should proceed in private

24    session.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what I was going to confirm.  So let's go

Page 14892

 1    into private session for a while, please, and someone will go through the

 2    latter part of the transcript to establish what redactions need to be

 3    made.

 4                          [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14893

 1 

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 3 

 4 

 5 

 6 

 7 

 8 

 9 

10 

11    Page 14893 redacted. Private session

12 

13 

14 

15 

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17 

18 

19 

20 

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23 

24 

25 

Page 14894

 1   (redacted)

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                          [Open session]

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  We will take the break now, Mr. Lazarevic,

21    during which you can consult with your client.  Twenty-five minutes.

22            We'll have the usual break for 25 minutes, please.  Thank you.

23                          --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Thank you.

Page 14895

 1            Mr. Lazarevic, have you consulted with your client?

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] Yes, I did, Your Honour, and I will

 3    have just five or ten minutes more.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Proceed, please.

 5            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.  And before I proceed, I would like to draw

 6    the attention of the Trial Chamber to page 2, line 2 of the transcript,

 7    because there it says that today's witness is "PW-108," and it's actually

 8    "PW-100."  And I believe it should be corrected.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Thank you for pointing that out.

10            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I think it would be wise to move

11    into private session now.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Then let's do that.  Let's move into private

13    session, please.

14                          [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14896

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 2 

 3 

 4 

 5 

 6 

 7 

 8 

 9 

10 

11    Pages 14896-14898 redacted. Private session

12 

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17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

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23 

24 

25 

Page 14899

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                          [Open session]

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

10            MR. THAYER:

11       Q.   Sir, do you recall receiving any information as to the location

12    where the 2nd Company, commanded by Mr. Nedzo Ikonjic was deployed during

13    the period time you were deployed on that road?

14       A.   I believe that the rumour had it that they had been in the area of

15    Konjevic Polje.

16       Q.   And to your recollection, sir, were there any members of the 2nd

17    Company under Mr. Ikonjic along the stretch of road where you were

18    deployed?

19       A.   I cannot recall that, no.

20       Q.   Sir, earlier today you were asked by my learned friend about a

21    statement or a portion of your statement where you described being

22    dispersed or scattered in Potocari when you first arrived.  Do you recall

23    that, sir?

24       A.   Yes, I do.

25       Q.   Sir, I just want to refer -- well, do you recall whether you were

Page 14900

 1    ever regrouped prior to being deployed?

 2       A.   Can you please rephrase that question?

 3       Q.   Certainly.  You described being dispersed or scattered upon your

 4    arrival at Potocari.  Were you ever deployed in any particular fashion

 5    around Potocari?

 6       A.   A few soldiers or a few Jahorina guys have been deployed in some

 7    sort of military fashion around the compound, yes, and I was one of them

 8    that has been dispersed around the compound, actually put on the position.

 9    It was, I believe, about eight or nine of us.

10       Q.   Now, sir, you were asked some questions about the dates on which

11    these events occurred.  Do you recall being asked some questions about the

12    dates in your deposition?

13       A.   I probably was asked the dates, yes.

14       Q.   And do you recall, sitting here today, what your answers were?

15       A.   Yes, I do.

16       Q.   And do you recall what those -- can you tell the Trial Chamber

17    what your answers were?

18       A.   Okay.  My answer was:  I believe it was either 12th or 13th of

19    July, maybe even 14th.  I'm not sure, but my honest belief is that we are

20    the very first unit that actually has entered Potocari.  If that date of

21    entry of Potocari is noted as the 12th, then I firmly believe it was the

22    12th of July.

23       Q.   Okay, sir.  I want to show you a document, and it is on e-court.

24            MR. THAYER: And I'll leave it up to our technical people to decide

25    whether it's better to show it on e-court or on the ELMO.  It is a

Page 14901

 1    hospital record for the Bratunac health facility, and the 65 ter number is

 2    1892.  It is page 26 of the document, the original B/C/S document.  The

 3    ERN is 0179-3916.  This particular page has not been translated.

 4            Thank you.  If we could scroll down a little bit.  Even a little

 5    bit more, please.  Thank you.  Perfect.  That's probably as big as we can

 6    get without losing the text.  Okay.  Perfect.  Thank you.

 7       Q.   Sir, do you see this document before you?

 8       A.   No, I don't.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Just hang on a moment, and we'll see if we can get it to

10    you.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, it's --

12            THE WITNESS:  Now I can see it, yes.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

14            MR. THAYER:

15       Q.   Sir, I'm going to draw your attention to three entries at the

16    bottom of this page.  They are numbered 1480, 1481, and 1482.  Do you see

17    those entries all the way on the left-hand --

18       A.   No, sir.

19       Q.   Okay.  If you look -- if you look at the far left side of this

20    document, there's a column with numbers, and you should see "1480","1481,"

21    and "1482" running down.

22       A.   No.  All we can see is the dates.

23            MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Can we scroll to the right a little?

24            THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Now it's visible.

25            MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Perfect, sir.

Page 14902

 1       Q.   Now, do you see the column directly to the right of those numbers?

 2       A.   The column with the numbers?

 3       Q.   Yes.  Do you see --

 4       A.   With the dates?

 5       Q.   Exactly, sir.

 6       A.   Yes, I do.

 7       Q.   Can you read the date and the time that's listed under each of

 8    those dates for those three entries, please?

 9       A.   I believe the first one is the 12th of the 7th, 1995.  The second

10    one --

11           MS. (redacted):  Sorry.  Would it be possible to focus a little bit

12    more on the document?  Thank you.

13            THE WITNESS:  This is better.

14            MR. THAYER:

15       Q.   And we're looking at entry 1480, 1481 and 1482, please.

16       A.   Okay.  The 14th of the 7, 1995, 4.30.  Fourteenth of the 7, 1995,

17    4 -- it's blurry, the time.  It would probably be 4.30.  And the 14th of

18    the 7, 1995, 4.30.

19       Q.   Okay.  And when you say "14 of the 7, 1995", what do you mean --

20    how do you read that, sir, to mean?

21       A.   The 14th of July.

22       Q.   And when you say "4.30" when you look at the times, is that 4.30

23    in the morning or 4.30 in the afternoon?

24       A.   I would say this is 4.30 in the morning.

25       Q.   Okay.  Now, moving again to your right, in the next column do you

Page 14903

 1    see three sets of names?  And if you do, would you please read them to

 2    yourself - you don't need to read them aloud, and - and I ask you whether

 3    you recognise any of those names.

 4       A.   I read the name, but I cannot recognise the names.

 5            MR. THAYER:  Okay.  If we could scroll to the right a little bit,

 6    please.

 7       Q.   Sir, you'll see that the next column has three years, and then the

 8    column after that has three, looks like, locations, and then I just want

 9    you to read the third column, sir.  Can you see what that entry is for the

10    top column or for the top?

11       A.   "Special Brigade Police, Jahorina."

12       Q.   And it's the same entry for the next two below it; is that

13    correct?

14       A.   That is correct, yes.

15       Q.   And then what does the next column say?

16       A.   It's probably the place.

17       Q.   Can you read that, sir?

18       A.   Sandici.

19       Q.   Now, can you scroll up, please, sir, just so we can see what the

20    heading of those two columns is.  Can you read the Cyrillic there?

21       A.   Can you focus a bit, please?

22       Q.   So it would be the Cyrillic to the far left and the heading next

23    to that one.

24       A.   Okay.  The first one is "Unit," and the second one is the place of

25    injury or "Place of wounding," and the next one, "Diagnosis."

Page 14904

 1       Q.   Okay.  Now, sir, I think everybody here would accept that Sandici

 2    is in close proximity to Kravica.  Having reviewed this medical log, which

 3    indicates that these three Special Police Brigade from Jahorina members

 4    were injured in the early morning hours of the 14th of the July, how does

 5    that correspond with your recollection of the dates of these events?

 6       A.   In that case, if those dates are correct, then if we were -- on

 7    that point in time, if that's the place where we were, then two days -- a

 8    day or two days prior that we have been in Potocari, if that is the --

 9    where are you going with the question?

10       Q.   I think you've answered it about as much as we're going to try to

11    with you, sir.  Thank you.

12            Now, sir, you were asked some questions about whether you had any

13    further information about the identities of some of these individuals

14    connected with or who committed the execution of those 15 prisoners that

15    you told us about.  With respect to the individual who you described as

16    the Montenegrin, do you recall whether you were able, in 1995, to provide

17    any further information to the Office of the Prosecutor about him?

18       A.   No further details in respect to the name, place, date of birth.

19    All we knew and all I said, to my best recollection now, I said that he

20    nicked -- his nickname or surname or a.k.a. or whatever was Montenegrin

21    and that he's coming from a particular place by the name of Kupres, and

22    that was about as much as we knew about each other.  It was vague.  Nobody

23    would like to talk about anything simply because we have been in fear and

24    we have been in great shock after what has happened to us.  We just simply

25    didn't ask much questions.

Page 14905

 1       Q.   Okay.  Well, the fact he was from Kupres is something I think that

 2    is new, in terms of what you've said to us here in this Tribunal in the

 3    last day or so.  Let me, if I could, just read a portion of your interview

 4    with the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995.  And this is at page 11 of the

 5    English, and B/C/S, page 10.

 6            There it's written:  "Among the others, I remember," and you've

 7    later described him telling you what you've already testified he told you,

 8     "I remember a guy whose nickname was Crnogorac,"  and forgive me for the

 9    pronunciation, "which means he is Montenegrin.  He is from Kupres, is 25

10    to 26 years old, one metre, 75 tall, has long dark hair."

11            Do you remember whether you were -- whether you provided that

12    information to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995?

13       A.   Yes, sir.

14       Q.   To the best of your recollection, is that information accurate?

15       A.   Yes.  To the best of my recollection, yes, it is.

16       Q.   Now, I wanted to just ask you a question about the position of

17    Aleksa.  You said you couldn't remember what his real name was or whether,

18    in fact, you were told his real name.  Do you remember what you told --

19    what you stated in your deposition as to what his actual position was or

20    whether he was a regular Special Police Brigade member or simply a recruit

21    like yourself?  Do you remember what you said in the deposition about

22    that?

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

24            THE WITNESS:  Yes, I believe that I said --

25            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] I'm objecting now to this question.

Page 14906

 1    I don't believe that this issue of the rank of Aleksa was raised during my

 2    cross-examination.  I did deal with the fact that this person didn't have

 3    much details about him.  But about the rank, there was nothing that was

 4    raised during cross-examination.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, because I do recall the witness

 6    mentioning it earlier on today.  Let me just ...

 7            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, maybe I can assist Your Honours.

 8            On yesterday's transcript, on page 52, this was the question posed

 9    by my colleague, and I believe that the witness already gave his answer.

10    And I never asked anything about Aleksa's rank or whether he belonged to

11    regular or special police force or a recruit from Jahorina.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

13            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, there was some cross-examination which

14    was obviously designed to illicit the witness's lack of knowledge about

15    any of these individuals, and I'm simply looking to see whether his

16    recollection can be refreshed to further identify who these people were.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  That's perfectly in order, so let's proceed

18    with the witness's answer to your question.

19            MR. THAYER:

20       Q.   And for the record, sir, I'm going to refer you to page 12 of your

21    deposition.

22            MR. THAYER: That's ERN 0149-9695.  That's at the bottom of page 9

23    of the B/C/S.

24       Q.   You were being asked about the structure of your units from

25    Jahorina, and the question was:  "And to step up from this fellow recruit,

Page 14907

 1    who was the next superior, for example, the company commander?"

 2            And your answer was:  "It would be the regular guy."

 3            The next question:  "And do you recall what his name was?"

 4            And your answer was:  "Aleksa."

 5            When you say the next step up from a recruit like yourself would

 6    be "the regular guy," what do you mean by "the regular guy," sir?

 7       A.   A member, a regular member of the police force or special police

 8    force.

 9       Q.   Okay, sir.  My last question concerns and relates to the questions

10    you were asked about whatever happened to the bodies of these 15 men who

11    were executed.

12            MR. THAYER:  I think we'll need the assistance of Madam Usher,

13    because I don't think this document is in e-court, so we'll need to place

14    it on the ELMO.  This is a photograph that has been disclosed to my

15    friends on February 4th, 2007.  It is part of Dean Manning's report, ERN

16    0610-6454 to 0610-0647, disclosed 6 July of this year.

17       Q.   Sir, it is the Prosecution's position and evidence that 17 bodies

18    were exhumed approximately 200 to 250 metres on that Bratunac-Konjevic

19    Polje road where you were stationed, 200 to 250 metres to Konjevic Polje

20    from that meadow you described.  Of the 17 bodies, 13 were identified as

21    belonging to men from Srebrenica.

22            Can you see the photograph in front of you, sir?

23       A.   Yes, I can.

24       Q.   Do you see an embankment with a railing, sir?

25       A.   Can you please clarify that question?

Page 14908

 1       Q.   Can you identify an embankment wall with a guardrail, sir, in the

 2    photograph?  I just don't know how clear it is for you.

 3       A.   Embankment on the road?

 4       Q.   It's a wall, sir.  I used the term "embankment," but --

 5       A.   It looks like a wall, yes.

 6       Q.   Now, it's the Prosecution's evidence that those bodies were then

 7    covered with dirt after being pushed off that embankment.  Do you recall

 8    whether you at any time travelled approximately 200 to 250 metres in the

 9    direction of Konjevic Polje from Sandici meadow while you were stationed

10    there?

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, Witness, before you answer the

12    question.

13            Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

14            MR. LAZAREVIC:  [In English] Your Honours, it is redirect, and the

15    Prosecution is first putting his case to the witness, then asking him to

16    confirm.  I mean, this is really inappropriate.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  We all are in agreement with you, Mr. Lazarevic.

18    You either move to something else, Mr. Thayer, or rephrase your question,

19    please.

20            MR. THAYER:

21       Q.   Sir, in the direction of Konjevic Polje from the Sandici meadow,

22    do you recall how far you ever travelled on foot, if at all, from that

23    location?

24       A.   I never travelled on foot anywhere further than that meadow since

25    that first day at all.  I had been stationed on the opposite side, on the

Page 14909

 1    opposite way towards the Konjevic Polje, and we could not leave the post

 2    any further and we had to be there at all times.

 3            MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Witness, I thank you, and I thank His Worship,

 4    and I thank His Worship's staff for their cooperation.

 5            I have no further questions.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Thayer.

 7            Judge Kwon, do you have any questions?  Judge Stole?  Judge Prost?

 8    No questions.  Witness, that brings your testimony to an end.  We don't

 9    have any further questions for you.

10            Before we close this videolink testimony, however, I wish to thank

11    you on behalf of the Trial Chamber and the Tribunal for having given

12    evidence, and I also wish to thank you, Magistrate, and your legal officer

13    for attending during the testimony.  And if you could also convey, on our

14    behalf, our gratitude to the authorities of your countries for helping in

15    organising this videolink and also the testimony of the witness.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for that, Mr. President.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Have a good day.

18            THE WITNESS:  Good evening.

19                          [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  So that brings to the end the witness.  Now we need

21    to proceed with the tendering of documents.

22            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, there's just one document that we have

23    to offer.  Everything else has been already admitted.  The one document is

24    the pseudonym sheet, P02878.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I won't even ask whether there is any

Page 14910

 1    objections.  That is so admitted, and it will remain under seal.

 2            Mr. Lazarevic, do you wish to tender any documents?

 3            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.  We have two documents to offer.  One is

 4    4DP0001.  It's the order of President Radovan Karadzic, dated 16 of June,

 5    1995.  And the other document is 4D00119.  It's a report by the deputy

 6    Minister of the Interior.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Any objection on your part, Mr. Thayer?

 8            MR. THAYER:  No objection.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection by the other Defence teams?

10            There is no objection, so the two documents will be admitted, and

11    they will be given the proper identification number.

12            All right.  We can now move to the next witness, which, as I

13    understand, is 108, who has come back for cross-examination.

14                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, I am being informed that in order to be

16    able to proceed, because we have been on a videolink connection, they have

17    to make proper readjustments and that they require, at a minimum, about 20

18    minutes for that.

19                          [Trial Chamber confers]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  What we suggest to do is we'll have a 20-minute

21    break now, and then we go straight to the end, with a ten-minute break

22    somewhere, when it becomes either more convenient to you or because of

23    technical reasons.  All right.

24            Thank you.

25            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 14911

 1                          --- Recess taken at 11.34 a.m.

 2                          [The witness entered court]

 3                          --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon, sir, and welcome back.  We are going

 5    to proceed with your testimony now, and you are about to cross-examined by

 6    Mr. Bourgon, who is appearing for the Accused Nikolic.

 7            May I remind you of the two things I explained to you when you

 8    started giving evidence the other day.  One is that you are testifying

 9    under oath, really, the solemn declaration that you made before you

10    started your testimony.  That still applies, holds good.  The second is

11    the explanation that I gave you in relation to your right to ask to be

12    exempted from answering some questions, if you feel they are

13    incriminating, incriminatory.

14            All right.  Mr. Bourgon.

15                          WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-108 [Resumed]

16            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17            Before I begin, I would like to know, do we have to stop or can we

18    until a quarter to?

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  No.  I think, at this point, having started at a

20    minute or two after 12:00, I think it would be possible to continue right

21    to the end.

22            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you.  That's what I would prefer, but I just

23    want to know in terms to pace myself with the questions.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  In any case, if you need a break, you only have to

25    tell us.

Page 14912

 1            MR. BOURGON:  I don't think I will need a break.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 3                          Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 4       Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 5       A.   Good morning.

 6       Q.   I have quite a bit of questions for you this morning.  I will hope

 7    to conclude -- I will try to conclude today, my cross-examination.  If

 8    that is not possible, then I guess we will have to continue tomorrow

 9    morning.

10            Before I begin with any substantive questions related to your

11    testimony, I would like to confirm, basically, the general outline of your

12    testimony, which will help me to limit my cross-examination.

13            So correct me if I'm wrong, but in your testimony, you answered

14    questions in respect of three events, and I will go basically over those

15    three events.

16            So the first event you testified about is a visit you allegedly

17    made to the Zvornik Brigade Command with your friend, sometime in July of

18    1995, so that's the first event you testified about.  Is that correct?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Of course, this is not the only time you went to Zvornik Brigade

21    Command between the period, let's say, from 1992 to 1996; is that correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And that was not your first visit, either, to the Zvornik Brigade

24    Command; is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 14913

 1       Q.   Just to clarify, you mean by "yes" that it was not your first

 2    visit?  That's my understanding.  Correct?

 3       A.   At that time, it was the first visit.  The next one was the one I

 4    made together with my friend.

 5       Q.   Okay.  Maybe I was not clear enough.  I'm just talking about going

 6    to Zvornik Brigade Command itself.  That visit that you testified about

 7    was not the first time that you went to the Zvornik Brigade Command; is

 8    that correct?

 9       A.   That was the first time I went to the Command with that friend.

10       Q.   Thank you.  Now, the second event --

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12            MR. BOURGON:

13       Q.   The second event that you spoke about during your testimony would

14    be an alleged second visit to the Zvornik Brigade Command one month later;

15    is that correct?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   And, thirdly, the other event you spoke about would be an occasion

18    when you met your friend at his house socially several months later, when

19    he spoke to you about a cut-off head he saw near a school; is that

20    correct?

21       A.   That was in the place where I worked that we socialised, and he

22    observed what I described to you (redacted)

23       Q.   Thank you.  That clarifies things, because I --

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 14914

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 5            MR. BOURGON:  Shall we redact this part?

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we need to redact part of line 15 and then

 7    whatever I said from 17 to 21.

 8            Go ahead.

 9            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you.

10       Q.   So, Witness, let's go back and simply say that those -- all I want

11    to is clarify with you those three events.  So the first one is the

12    alleged visit when you went with your friend to Z Brigade Command, the

13    second one is another Z Brigade Command 30 days later, and the third is a

14    visit where the place where you worked, and that was several months later;

15    is that correct?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   Now, I'd like to quickly just confirm the general outline of that

18    first visit to the Zvornik Brigade Command.  So correct me if I'm wrong,

19    but my understanding is your friend arrived to your location in the

20    morning.  He invited you to go to Zvornik Brigade Command.  You went

21    there.  You had an event that took place at the Z Brigade Command.  You

22    returned to your location, and then your friend left for Belgrade.  Is

23    that the general outline of that first alleged visit?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   My next question has to do with your knowledge of Commander

Page 14915

 1    Pandurevic, because he was the one that you were going to see.  Is that

 2    correct?

 3       A.   Correct.

 4       Q.   So you knew Commander Pandurevic; is that right?

 5       A.   I knew him.

 6       Q.   And you also met him before?

 7       A.   I did not.  I just knew of him.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  And you knew that Commander Pandurevic had been

 9    commander of the Zvornik Brigade for approximately -- well, for over two

10    years; right?

11       A.   I am not sure, but I knew that he was the commander.

12       Q.   And it is my understanding that your friend also knew Commander

13    Pandurevic.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And would it be correct in saying that your friend had met with

16    Mr. Pandurevic before?

17       A.   I'm not sure, but it's possible.

18       Q.   And would you agree with me that Commander Pandurevic --

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Microphone.

20            MR. BOURGON:  Sorry.

21       Q.   And, sorry, and would you agree with me, sir, that Commander

22    Pandurevic was pretty well in control of the Zvornik Brigade in 1995?  He

23    was exercising effective control over that brigade?

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Your microphone.

25       A.   I think so.

Page 14916

 1            MR. BOURGON:

 2       Q.   And the point I'm really trying to get at here, sir, is that from

 3    your point of view, and I'm not going to say what your work was because

 4    we're in public session, but from your professional point of view, would

 5    you agree with me that when Commander Pandurevic took over Zvornik

 6    Brigade, things changed for the better in the Zvornik area?  Is that

 7    correct?

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic, for assisting.

 9       A.   I cannot say with absolute certainty either way because I wasn't

10    aware how things were unfolding, so I can't say.

11            MR. BOURGON:

12       Q.   And if I think about Mr. Obrenovic, you would agree with me that

13    you knew Mr. Obrenovic before that visit in 1995; is that correct?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   And would you agree with me that you also met with Mr. Obrenovic

16    on a number of occasions between 1992 and 1995?

17       A.   Possibly, but only in the area where I worked.  It was socialising

18    between us as private persons.

19       Q.   But you knew him much more than you knew Commander Pandurevic; is

20    that correct?

21       A.   A little better.

22       Q.   And if we look at your friend, your friend also knew

23    Mr. Obrenovic; is that correct?

24       A.   Correct.

25       Q.   And I would also say that your friend knew Mr. Obrenovic from

Page 14917

 1    1992.  Is that correct?

 2       A.   Possibly.

 3       Q.   And your friend had a number of meetings with Mr. Obrenovic; is

 4    that correct?

 5       A.   Possibly.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 7            MR. THAYER:  Just date/year range would be helpful, I think.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it he's still referring to between 1992 and

 9    1995.  That's how I understand the question.

10            MR. BOURGON:  Exactly, Mr. President.  I was referring to the

11    period between 1992 and 1995.

12       Q.   So, Witness, just to clarify things concerning that last question,

13    the question was whether your friend had a number of meetings with

14    Mr. Obrenovic during the period from 1992 to 1995, and your answer

15    was, "Possibly."  Is that correct?

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   Now, "possibly" is kind of a, I would say, not -- I'd like you to

18    be a bit more precise, because I'm saying a number of meetings, and you

19    say, "Possibly."  So they had a number of meetings.  How many meetings did

20    they have during that period?

21       A.   I cannot say precisely, considering that I was not there when they

22    met.  I can only assume that they met.

23       Q.   But you knew that they did meet at times when you were not there?

24       A.   Possibly.

25       Q.   Thank you.  I move on to a different topic, and that is -- now

Page 14918

 1    we're still in the very general questions before I get into the events

 2    themselves, but I'd like to go over your knowledge of Mr. Drago Nikolic.

 3    And I'll just refer to what you said in your testimony, whether you can

 4    confirm.

 5            First of all, that you knew Drago Nikolic before this visit to the

 6    Zvornik Brigade Command, is that correct?

 7       A.   I knew him by sight, but I wasn't there.

 8       Q.   That was my next question, Witness, so that's pretty good, because

 9    you testified, in fact, that you knew him by sight, and that was on page

10    759 of the transcripts at line 10 to 11, and when I say -- would you agree

11    with me that you maybe had seen him two or three times at the most; is

12    that correct?

13       A.   Well, when I was there with my friend, I was with him then, and

14    maybe I ran across him in passing, once perhaps, but we didn't socialise.

15       Q.   Thank you.  So I understand from your answer that before this

16    alleged meeting in 1995, you saw him in passing once.  Is that your

17    answer?

18       A.   Possibly.

19       Q.   So I take it, then, that you had never spoken to Drago Nikolic or

20    had a meeting with him.  Is that correct?

21       A.   Correct, I had not.

22       Q.   And I take it that you, as just said yourself, that you did not

23    socialise.  My next point is:  What about your friend?  I take it that he

24    did not know Mr. Nikolic before.  Is that correct?

25       A.   I cannot say either way because I don't know.

Page 14919

 1       Q.   So you have no recollection whether your friend had ever seen

 2    Mr. Drago Nikolic before, or is it that he had never seen him?

 3       A.   I don't know.

 4       Q.   And given that you had seen Mr. Nikolic just one time in passing

 5    before, you don't really know if Mr. Nikolic knew you; is that correct?

 6       A.   I don't know.

 7       Q.   And that's exactly my point.  He might have known you, maybe, as a

 8    public figure because of your position, but you don't know whether he knew

 9    you; is that correct?

10       A.   I don't know.

11       Q.   Now, you said in your testimony, at page 761, that you knew that

12    Drago Nikolic was affiliated to the Intelligence Service, and that was

13    before the alleged visit; is that correct?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And you said, on page 760, that this was a notorious fact in

16    Zvornik.  Can you elaborate on that?  What do you mean by "a notorious

17    fact in Zvornik" that Mr. Nikolic was affiliated to the Intelligence

18    Service?

19       A.   Well, I suppose everybody at the Command knew what kind of work

20    Mr. Nikolic was doing; and from the comments of those who worked at the

21    Command, this knowledge spread.

22       Q.   Thank you.  Now, you testified also, on line 24 of the same page,

23    that you "cannot remember the person who told me that," and then you

24    stated that, "I learned from other people at the barracks."  Page 759,

25    lines 13-14.  Is that correct?

Page 14920

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   So what did the people tell you at the barracks?

 3       A.   It's not at the barracks.  It's outside the barracks where I

 4    worked.  People spoke about the fact that Mr. Nikolic was working for that

 5    service.

 6       Q.   And when was that?

 7       A.   Well, I don't remember.  It was a long time ago, too long a time

 8    for me to remember.

 9       Q.   Is it too long a time for you to remember who is it in the

10    barracks that shared that information with you?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   So you cannot share with us today the name of anyone from the

13    barracks that you would have met who told you that Mr. Nikolic was

14    affiliated to the Intelligence Service; is that your testimony today?

15       A.   I can't recall.

16       Q.   I'll move on to -- I've got two more general issues, and then

17    we'll get to more substantive questions.

18            You testified on page 751, lines 1 to 10, yesterday, when you

19    described that first alleged visit.  The only thing I'd like to confirm at

20    this time - we will get into the details later - is that when your friend

21    came to see you at your location, he said that -- maybe I should read it

22    just to avoid any misunderstanding.

23            On page 751, I will read what you said yesterday, and that is

24    exactly at line -- first, let's take the question:  "If you can remember

25    what, if any, he said about what he was worried about."

Page 14921

 1            And your answer was:  "My friend said that he was worried and that

 2    something was happening across over there."

 3            And just to make it clear, to avoid any objection from my

 4    colleague, at line 10 you said:  "He said that something bad was

 5    happening."

 6            Do you recall testifying to that effect?

 7       A.   I think that's what I said.

 8       Q.   And I take it that before going to Zvornik Brigade, you did not

 9    have any further details as to what is it that your friend was referring

10    to when he mentioned bad things happening; is that correct?

11       A.   I did not.

12       Q.   I have one last general question before I move to your background,

13    and that is something you mentioned yesterday.  And, again, I will quote

14    from the transcript on page 765, and that is the part where you were asked

15    by my colleague whether on the trip back from Zvornik Brigade Command to

16    Mali Zvornik, your friend was able to provide you with any more detail

17    about where these bad things were happening on the basis of that meeting

18    he allegedly had.  "Allegedly" is added by me.

19            Your answer was, and I quote on page 765, line 25, and 766, lines

20    1 to 2:  "He just mentioned several schools where prisoners were being

21    kept, but he did not say exactly what was going on at those schools."

22            I stop here for now because the name of the school is something

23    we'll look at later.

24            Do you remember testifying to that effect two days ago?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 14922

 1       Q.   Okay.  What I will do at this point, sir, is I will first have a

 2    few questions which relate to your background, and we'll go into private

 3    session for that, then I'll move on with some questions with your

 4    relationship with the Prosecution over the years, and then we'll go into

 5    the alleged visit, itself, just so that you know where I'm going with my

 6    cross-examination.

 7            Mr. President, if we can go into private session, please.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session for a short while,

 9    please.

10                          [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14923

 1 

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 3 

 4 

 5 

 6 

 7 

 8 

 9 

10 

11    Page 14923 redacted. Private session

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

Page 14924

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                          [Open session]

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session, Mr. Bourgon.

13            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14       Q.   Looking at your relationship or your dealings with the Office of

15    the Prosecution of this Tribunal over the years, it is my understanding,

16    sir, that the first time you met with the Prosecution, it had nothing to

17    do with the events which unfolded in 1995.  Would you agree?

18       A.   I would agree.

19       Q.   Now, I don't know if you know the exact date, but I simply suggest

20    to you -- I have an info report which was drafted by the Office of the

21    Prosecution, which dates back to the 27th November 2002.  Do you recall

22    meeting with the Prosecution at that time?

23       A.   I do.

24       Q.   And on that occasion, the object of this meeting was to discuss

25    the events which unfolded in the area of Zvornik in the period in 1992; is

Page 14925

 1    that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Now, I had the opportunity to read this information report, and my

 4    understanding of it, if I can summarise or try to summarise in one

 5    sentence and see if you will agree, you told the Prosecution that you were

 6    aware of what happened in Zvornik in 1992, but that you were not involved

 7    in those events.  Would that be a fair summarisation of what you told the

 8    Prosecution when you met with them in 2002?

 9       A.   I said that what was generally known and what I could hear from

10    the information media, well, that's what I confirm.  What everybody knew,

11    that's what I knew, too.

12       Q.   And so beyond what the people knew about the events of 1992, you

13    did not have any direct involvement into those events; is that correct?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   And the next time you met with the Prosecution, based on the

16    information I have, would be on 21 July 2006 in -- at your location.

17    Would that be correct?

18       A.   Correct.

19       Q.   Now, you recall this interview, which I had the opportunity to

20    read, and maybe we -- we'll go over that interview today.  I'm not sure

21    yet.  But my understanding is that when you had this interview, someone

22    contacted you before to make an appointment.  Is that correct?

23       A.   Yes, it is.

24       Q.   And can you share with us today who is it that contacted you and

25    when?

Page 14926

 1       A.   The people who contacted me, I think, were the representatives of

 2    the Tribunal and the interpreter.  He had my number, and he made an

 3    appointment, but I can't remember who the person was.

 4       Q.   And how much time was it before the actual interview that you were

 5    contacted by the persons you mentioned?

 6       A.   Well, I think it might have been a few days, up to a month.  I'm

 7    not quite sure.

 8       Q.   And did they tell you what they wanted to discuss with you during

 9    this interview and why they were contacting you, yourself?  Because you

10    had spoken to them before, so what did they tell you this interview would

11    be about?

12       A.   They didn't say, but I accepted to talk to them.

13       Q.   Is it your testimony today that when they met with you, they never

14    mentioned your friend, or did they mention your friend when they called

15    you?

16       A.   They didn't.

17       Q.   And I take it that you must have asked them, "Why is it that you

18    want to speak to me?"  Did you say that, or did you just accept blindly

19    any invitation by people from this Tribunal?

20       A.   I accepted because I considered it to be my civic duty, and I

21    didn't lay down any conditions, nor did I ask any questions.

22       Q.   I take it that the next time you met with the Prosecution was not

23    until the 14th of June of this year, when you came for the first time to

24    testify in this case.  Do you recall coming here on the 14th of June of

25    this year?

Page 14927

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Now, you were supposed to testify at that moment, and you did not

 3    because of a request from the Defence, because we needed more time to

 4    investigate and also because we had just received a lot of information,

 5    additional information, by the Prosecution which concerned you.  Were you

 6    informed of this?

 7       A.   They informed me, with respect to the Defence, that my testimony

 8    had been postponed.

 9       Q.   And did they inform you that they had provided information to the

10    Defence which related to you and that is why we had requested the delay?

11    Did they say that to you?

12       A.   Well, I don't remember exactly what was said, specifically, but I

13    think they informed me that the Defence had requested a postponement of my

14    testimony.

15       Q.   Thank you for this answer.  On this occasion, sir, I take it that

16    you did have the opportunity to read your interview - that's the interview

17    of 21 July 2006 - and that you had the opportunity to read this interview

18    in your own language.  Is that correct?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   And when you read this -- having read this interview, I take it

21    that, from the information I have, that you did some minor corrections;

22    for example, maybe you recall saying something about the apartment of

23    Commander Pandurevic.  Do you recall this?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And you also said, because I have the information here with me,

Page 14928

 1    according to the notes I've received from the Prosecution, you would have

 2    said that -- you were asked, actually, whether you recall the exact title

 3    of Drago Nikolic in the summer of 1995.  And you stated that you did not

 4    know the exact title, but that you knew he was in Intelligence.  Do you

 5    remember saying this?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So other than this -- the information you provided to the

 8    Prosecution on that day, that is to say, that your interview, you had an

 9    opportunity to read it and you answered a couple of questions, I take it

10    that there was nothing knew that came out of this meeting.  Is that

11    correct?

12       A.   Correct.

13       Q.   And the next time you came to the Tribunal, again you were

14    supposed to testify, and my understanding is that this time it was around

15    mid-July 2007.  Is that correct?

16       A.   Possible.

17       Q.   All I'm trying to confirm at this point, sir, is whether you did

18    come to The Hague, in July, another time before this week.

19       A.   I came just once and now again.

20       Q.   Thank you.  I just wanted to confirm this, because initially you

21    were scheduled to testify, I think, around mid-July, and it was postponed.

22    Were you informed of this?

23       A.   When I was here that time and I was supposed to testify, the

24    Prosecution informed me that the Defence had requested that I don't

25    testify.  So I went back to my place of residence, and now I've come back

Page 14929

 1    again.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  That clarifies things.  Now, in the middle, did you

 3    make any travel arrangements at any point to testify again that would have

 4    been cancelled?

 5       A.   Well, I don't remember that.  I don't actually understand the

 6    question.

 7       Q.   Okay.  I'll try to make it as simple as possible.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  One moment, Mr. Bourgon.

 9            Mr. Thayer.

10            MR. THAYER:  I think we know why the question was a little

11    confusing, given how these arrangements are made.  I mean, we can provide

12    clarification for that kind of information, if my friend really wants it.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.  If this issue --

14            MR. BOURGON:  My point, Mr. President, is for him, whether he

15    knows.  That's what's important to me, whether he knew that there was

16    another scheduling for his testimony.

17       Q.   Sir, I'll try to explain that to you in very simple terms.  You

18    said that you came here once and it was postponed and you returned home,

19    and you said that you came this week and now you are testifying.  In

20    between the two, were you informed that you were supposed to come to The

21    Hague to testify?

22       A.   Well, when I returned, while I was returning, I was told that I

23    would be invited to come again to testify.

24       Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on to something else.

25            When you came this week, I take it that you had a meeting with the

Page 14930

 1    Prosecution, and that was last Sunday on the 2nd of September.  Do you

 2    recall meeting with the Prosecution on that occasion?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And it is my understanding that you were again shown a copy of

 5    your interview and that you had a chance to read it in your own language.

 6    Is that correct?

 7       A.   Correct.

 8       Q.   And my next question is:  Were you shown any other material on

 9    that occasion when you met with the Prosecution?

10       A.   I was just shown a photograph and asked to identify some people,

11    and the day before yesterday I confirmed that.

12       Q.   When you say "the day before yesterday," is that a second meeting

13    you had with the Prosecution or is that at the same meeting?

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it during his testimony.

15       A.   It was on Sunday, Sunday.  On Sunday, I had contacts, and the day

16    before yesterday I confirmed this on the photograph that I was shown.

17            MR. BOURGON:

18       Q.   Thank you, sir.  For me, my purpose is simply to confirm that you

19    met with the Prosecution and you were shown your testimony, you were shown

20    a picture, and you only met with the Prosecution once.  Is that correct?

21       A.   Correct.

22       Q.   Now, I mention this because we always get proofing notes following

23    any meeting you have with the Prosecution in order to allow us to prepare,

24    and I believe it is important that you are made aware that we have what is

25    discussed between you and the Prosecution before you testify.

Page 14931

 1            And the only thing I'd like to say is that, during that meeting on

 2    Sunday, would you agree with me that very little, if any, new information

 3    came out?  Is that correct?

 4       A.   Well, there weren't any.  I just read through the transcript and

 5    confirmed what was there, that I understood, and there were no additional

 6    questions, except to show me the photograph.

 7       Q.   And I take it, based on the information I have here, that you also

 8    at this meeting, you recognised Nikolic.  You said that was because of his

 9    hair, his distinctive hair; is that correct?

10       A.   Correct.

11       Q.   And correct me if I'm wrong, but you also stated on that occasion,

12    two more details; the first one being that the alleged meeting between

13    your friend and Mr. Nikolic took place upstairs at Standard, and that it

14    may have been in the commander or the deputy commander's office.  Is that

15    correct?

16       A.   Well, I don't know whose office it was, but it wasn't that of

17    Commander Pandurevic or Obrenovic.  It wasn't their office.  It was quite

18    a different office.  I don't know whose office it actually was.

19       Q.   I take it from your answer that you know where the office of

20    Commander Pandurevic and the office of the deputy commander is.  Is that

21    correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Because according to the information I have, it says here it may

24    have been in the commander or deputy commander's office.  Can you clarify

25    this for me, please?

Page 14932

 1       A.   No, no, I didn't say that.  I didn't say that at all.  It's quite

 2    a different office.  When you go up the stairs onto the floor above, the

 3    office was to your left, the first door to your left, but we looked for

 4    Mr. Pandurevic on the right, where his office was.

 5       Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'll just leave it at that.  But I also say that

 6    it was the first time that you ever provided any information concerning

 7    which office this alleged meeting took place in.  Would you agree with

 8    that?

 9       A.   The first time, I explained where the meeting was held between

10    myself [as interpreted], my friend, and Mr. Nikolic.

11       Q.   Well, we'll get back to that, but I'm saying that before that --

12    well, okay.  First let's make a correction in the transcript.

13            I believe, if I read page 68, lines 12 and 13, it says:  "The

14    first time, I explained where the meeting was held between myself, my

15    friend, and Mr. Nikolic."

16            First, I'd like to confirm that you were not in that office when

17    your friend spoke to Mr. Nikolic, as you testified.  Is that correct?

18       A.   Correct.

19       Q.   So just now that we take this maybe slip of the tongue away from

20    the equation, you say that you said the first time where the meeting was

21    held.  Now, what I'm saying to you today is that based on the information

22    that I have, you were asked that question before, but you never said and

23    never indicated any area precisely or any office where that meeting was

24    held.  Do you agree with me?

25       A.   The question was asked, but I didn't know whose office it was.

Page 14933

 1    All I know is that it wasn't Mr. Pandurevic's office or Mr. Obrenovic's.

 2       Q.   And the fact that it says here in the proofing note that it may

 3    have been the commander or deputy commander's office is a mistake that was

 4    done by the Prosecution; that's your testimony today?

 5       A.   Well, I don't know if it's a mistake.  All I know is that I did

 6    not say that it was in Mr. Pandurevic's or Mr. Obrenovic's office.  It

 7    wasn't there.  It was in another office.  I don't know whose office that

 8    was.

 9       Q.   Now, another thing you said when you met with the Prosecution on

10    that time, you said, prior to 1995, your friend told you that Nikolic was

11    involved in intelligence and security.  Did you say that to the

12    Prosecution?

13       A.   No, I didn't put it that way.  That's not what I said.

14       Q.   So you don't know if it's a mistake, but you never said that your

15    friend told you that Nikolic was involved in intelligence and security; is

16    that correct?

17       A.   I knew about that, as I told you, but my friend didn't comment to

18    me on that.

19       Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'll move on to a different question.  But, of

20    course, that information will be part of the record, just so at least we

21    know that you today are saying something different than what I have on

22    this information which was provided to me by the Prosecution.

23            Let me move to a different topic or simply just close on this

24    issue.  I want to know whether you have, in your possession, a copy of

25    your interview in your language.  Did you ever have this in your

Page 14934

 1    possession?

 2       A.   No, I haven't got one.

 3       Q.   Did you at any time were given a copy to bring home, or here for a

 4    couple of days to keep with you, to prepare for your testimony?

 5       A.   No.  Just when I came last time and this time again, I read

 6    through it.  I was given the opportunity of reading through it several

 7    times, but I didn't take it away with me.

 8       Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'll move to a different series of questions,

 9    and, basically, I'd like to ask you a few things about the events which

10    took place in 1992.

11            As I mentioned previously, you did meet with the Prosecution on 27

12    November 2002 to discuss these events.  You've already said "yes" to this

13    question, but what I need to do at this time, so that the Trial Chamber

14    understands those events which I will cover in my cross-examination, I

15    would like to confirm some of the basic facts which I believe you are

16    aware of and that are established.

17            The first one is that:  You are aware that an attack was conducted

18    on Zvornik on the 8th of April, 1992?

19       A.   That's when the war began or the conflict in Zvornik.

20       Q.   And these are established facts, so it shouldn't be a problem for

21    you to confirm that many units were involved in this attack on 8 April

22    1992, including units of the Territorial Defence of Zvornik, which were

23    commanded by Branko Popovic, or his other name, Marko Pavlovic, and other

24    paramilitary units such as Arkan's units.  So you're aware of these facts,

25    aren't you?

Page 14935

 1       A.   I know about the participation of Arkan's units, but I don't know

 2    under whose command they were.

 3       Q.   Now, you're aware this attack was conducted pursuant to a plan

 4    which was adopted by the Serbian Democratic Party, the SDS, which wanted

 5    to take over the municipality of Zvornik to chase out the Muslim

 6    population and to proclaim this territory as a Serbian municipality; are

 7    you aware of this?

 8       A.   Well, I don't know of that plan.

 9       Q.   So if I look at the information report, which contains what you

10    said to the Prosecution on 27 November 2002, let's begin maybe with some

11    of the main players involved.  It's my understanding from that report that

12    you know who Branko, or is it Brano, Grujic is, as well as the position he

13    held at that time; is that correct?

14       A.   Correct.

15       Q.   So if I tell you, at the time, Brano Grujic was the president of

16    the Serbian Democratic Party, SDS, president of the Serbian municipality

17    of Zvornik, and that he became the president of the Serbian municipality

18    of Zvornik War Staff in April 1992, these facts are accurate, are they?

19       A.   That's how the public was informed.

20            MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, just to inform, before I get an

21    objection from the Prosecution, these questions have to do with the

22    credibility of the witness.  I need to establish these facts before I go

23    into any substantive question, and I will be done shortly.

24       Q.   Sir, let me continue and say that pursuant to the information

25    report that I have, you knew Brano Grujic very well before the war; is

Page 14936

 1    that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Now, what about Branko Popovic?  You know him, and you know who he

 4    is; right?

 5       A.   I knew him under the name of "Marko Pavlovic," and (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7       Q.   Now, would you agree with me that during the conflict, of course,

 8    you just mentioned is a.k.a., or his "also known as," name --

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Bourgon.

10            Mr. Thayer.

11            MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'm a little concerned about the

12    identification of the location at that page.  I just simply ask for a

13    redaction, if anybody is familiar with that individual.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, agreed?

15            MR. BOURGON:  I agree, Mr. President, and I think we should move

16    into closed session for the next two or three questions.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So we'll redact that, and we'll move

18    into private session.

19                          [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14937

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 3 

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 7 

 8 

 9 

10 

11    Pages 14937-14954 redacted. Private session

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

Page 14955

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                          [Open session]

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Witness, we'll continue tomorrow morning at

13    9.00.  In the meantime, please, same accommodation as before, don't

14    discuss or allow anyone to discuss with you the subject of your testimony.

15            You can escort the witness out, because I see Mr. Thayer on his

16    feet.

17            MR. THAYER:  Just a scheduling question, Mr. President, really.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but I was going to ask that myself.

19            May I have, before I give you "la parole," Mr. Thayer, how much

20    more do you reckon you have?

21            MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I had announced three hours, and I

22    will need a little more than that, so I figure tomorrow I will need the

23    first session and at least half the second session.

24            Thank you, Mr. President.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

Page 14956

 1            Mr. Ostojic.

 2            MR. OSTOJIC:  Mr. President, we'll try to keep it below an hour.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That's all I wanted to know, because the

 4    rest is -- okay.

 5            Okay.  So we'll continue tomorrow morning.

 6            Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 7            MR. THAYER:  I was just wondering if we could have an idea of how

 8    much of that time we're going to spend in 1992, if we have an idea.

 9                          [The witness stands down]

10            MR. BOURGON:  I would prefer to keep surprises, but it's my

11    pleasure to inform my colleague I will about maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the

12    most in 1992.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  And they all have to do with credibility, I

14    suppose.

15            MR. BOURGON:  1992, yes.  The rest is also credibility, but in a

16    different regard with the events of 1995.

17            Thank you, Mr. President.

18            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

19            So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

20                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

21                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of

22                          September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

23

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