Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15148

1 Tuesday, 11 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon to you,

7 Madam Registrar. If you could kindly call the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. For the record, all the accused

11 are present. From the Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes

12 and Mr. Ostojic. Prosecution is represented by Mr. McCloskey. The

13 witness is already in his place. So I take it there are no

14 preliminaries.

15 Yes, Mr. Krgovic, I spoke too soon.

16 One moment. Let me just have a word with the witness and then of

17 course you will proceed with your cross-examination.

18 Colonel, good afternoon to you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We have some further cross-examinations today.

23 Mr. Krgovic for General Gvero will continue his and then I suppose he will

24 be followed by Mr. Bourgon, who would be I suppose the last one to

25 cross-examine you, after which there is going to be a re-examination, as

Page 15149

1 we were told yesterday. We'll make to effort to finish with your

2 testimony today, if that is possible.

3 May I just remind you of two things, the first being that you are

4 still testifying pursuant to your solemn declaration to testify the truth,

5 and also wish to remind you of my explanation regarding your rights in

6 relation to what would seem to you to be incriminatory questions.

7 Having said that, I now give the floor to Mr. Krgovic.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter].

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Krgovic. Take your time.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]

13 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. Before I move on to my next topic, I would like to clarify

16 something that was recorded on page 84 in line 17 through 20. When I was

17 asking you about the big chess field, you actually answered that General

18 Gvero tried to copy the chess field from the hotel in Kupare in the hotel

19 in Han Pijesak; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Correction in the transcript, please, from the hotel in Kupare to

22 the hotel in Han Pijesak. Thank you, Colonel. I'll move on to another

23 topic.

24 The Prosecutor, during the interview, showed you a document and

25 you discussed this document with the Prosecutor during that interview.

Page 15150

1 Can the witness please be shown Exhibit P45?

2 Look at the document and particularly the number in the left-hand

3 side corner. The number belongs to your body, the body that you worked

4 in?

5 A. No. It was Miletic who worked in that body.

6 Q. The operations body?

7 A. Yes, the operations body. But I was in a different unit. I was a

8 part -- a member of the armoured unit, which is entirely different.

9 Q. Can the document please be zoomed in so that the witness -- or

10 rather zoomed out to show the witness the entire document?

11 Thank you.

12 Colonel, in answering the Prosecutor's questions, you said that

13 this document had been drafted by an operative. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Could we please zoom in on the introduction, on the two last

16 paragraphs of the introduction, scroll a little bit further down? Now, a

17 little bit up. A bit more.

18 Can you now see this part?

19 A. Yes, I can see it.

20 Q. Sir, this is a combat order and I'm interested in this

21 introduction. Do you agree that these goals and tasks contained in this

22 order were provided by the commander?

23 A. I'm waiting for the interpretation. Based on this first sentence,

24 I can see immediately that instructions were provided, i.e., that an order

25 or rather an instruction was given so as to enable the person to draft the

Page 15151

1 document.

2 Q. Who was in a position to provide instructions for the drafting of

3 this document?

4 A. It was exclusively the commander who could provide instructions to

5 the Main Staff.

6 Q. At the moment on the 13th of July the commander was in the area of

7 responsibility, wasn't he?

8 A. I cannot say that for sure. I don't know where he was. I wasn't

9 with him.

10 Q. He was in the territory of Republika Srpska?

11 A. Yes, he was. He was in the territory of Republika Srpska.

12 Wherever he was, there was his forward command post.

13 Q. According to what you have heard -- we have heard from you,

14 actually what we heard yesterday, as far as I understood, this is a very

15 complex combat order and in order to draft this order, it took skills and

16 knowledge General Gvero did not possess those skills and knowledge

17 required to draft such a combat decision, combat order. Do you agree with

18 me?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is going so fast that the interpreters are

22 having a hard time keeping up, plus it's very compound. It can be done so

23 it's not --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I can help you very little on your last -- I think

25 that depends on Mr. Krgovic himself.

Page 15152

1 Please try to simplify your questions by splitting them up in

2 simple rather than compound ones. That's number 1.

3 The second thing, I can of course help. And I invite you,

4 Colonel, and you, Mr. Krgovic, please, to slow down. I could sense the

5 difficulty that the --

6 MR. KRGOVIC: I will, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: -- interpreters are encountering and I tried them

8 both, the French and the English channels, and it seems to be the same.

9 So please try to make everybody's life a bit simpler. Thank you.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: I try, Your Honour. I apologise.

11 [Interpretation] Can the witness now be shown the following page

12 of the same document?

13 Q. Colonel, in the signature block, the name that is typed is

14 assistant commander, General Colonel Milan Gvero?

15 A. I can see that.

16 Q. There is no stamp, there is no signature. In my view this should

17 be a telegram that was received by another unit. This is not an original

18 telegram.

19 A. Just a moment, please. Can you bear with me just a second? This

20 is a document that was received. You can see it in the stamp. The word

21 that is encircled means received.

22 Q. When such documents were sent, and when somebody signs on behalf

23 of the person who is not there, this cannot be seen in such telegrams?

24 A. No. You can't see that because these are usually signatures that

25 are illegible and the only thing that is being encrypted or coded is the

Page 15153

1 things that are typed out.

2 Q. Which makes me conclude that although his name is typed here, this

3 doesn't mean that General Gvero signed this document.

4 A. I can't say anything for a fact.

5 Q. But it is possible that somebody else signed on behalf of General

6 Gvero?

7 A. I've already told you, I can't tell you anything for a fact.

8 Anything is possible.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because that's a very general way of

10 explaining things, "Everything is possible." Wouldn't it be correct to

11 say that in your country, and in your language, if someone is signing for

12 someone else, he would put the word "za" before the name of the person for

13 whom he is signing?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you put "za" and then

15 you sign, and the signature is usually illegible.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So if there is no "za," the indication

17 is that it is not signed by someone on behalf of someone else, isn't it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case, the person who signed

19 the document is the person whose name is typed out on the document.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

22 Q. Colonel, if you can find the letters "SV" in the document, what

23 would that mean?

24 A. That would mean in his own hand, that the person has written the

25 document in his own hand, i.e. signed the document in his own hand.

Page 15154

1 Q. In this case, the "SV" is missing from the document.

2 A. You're right.

3 Q. Just a correction for the transcript. The letters that I

4 mentioned were "SR" when I put my question to the witness.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

7 Q. Colonel, one more question. At the time when you were in the

8 operations room, did you see General Gvero ever drafting such orders

9 throughout the time that you were there?

10 A. He never drafted anything remotely similar to this. If anybody

11 claimed anything differently, it would be a lie, it wouldn't be true.

12 Q. When you said that General Gvero was not capable of drafting any

13 such thing, did you mean that he did not have the skill, the knowledge and

14 the experience for something like that?

15 A. The most important thing is that he did not have any experience in

16 dealing with such documents.

17 Q. And certainly the information about the developments?

18 A. Sir, I can't say anything about the information. The information

19 arrived by telephone.

20 Q. Colonel, just one more thing, let me ask you. In July 1995, who

21 was replacing General Gvero, i.e. who was his deputy?

22 A. Colonel Savo Sokanovic.

23 Q. He was in the building next door?

24 A. Yes, on the left side, the last office in the hallway.

25 Q. Colonel, in addition to what you told us yesterday, in response to

Page 15155

1 my questions and the Prosecutor's questions about the role of General

2 Gvero, you don't have any other information as to what he had done in his

3 body, you were not aware of any documents, you don't know any details of

4 what he was doing as a member of his body?

5 A. That's true.

6 Q. And the document that I've just shown you, you never saw it before

7 the Prosecutor showed it to you; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. And you are not aware of any document that General Gvero might

10 have received or sent or any such correspondence that was drafted in July

11 1995?

12 A. No. And General Gvero did not have to explain himself to me.

13 Q. Any other documents, if anybody asked you about it, you would have

14 to guess, you don't have any immediate experience of any document that

15 Gvero drafted?

16 A. Why would Gvero show a head of a branch what he was doing?

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Krgovic. Mr. Bourgon?

21 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Mr. President, good afternoon,

22 Judges, good afternoon, colleagues.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

24 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel. I just have two quick questions for you

25 and these are based on your experience and of course I take these

Page 15156

1 questions on the basis also of the visit you made in the area of Zvornik

2 Brigade. So you recall what visit I'm talking about?

3 A. I believe that you're talking about my travel to the front line on

4 that day.

5 Q. Indeed, Colonel. I would just like you to confirm that when

6 officers are dispatched by the Main Staff to assess the situation within a

7 subordinate unit, would you agree with me that the commander of the

8 subordinate unit or in this case, for example, the deputy commander of the

9 Zvornik Brigade, who will receive the visiting officers of the Main Staff

10 would be expected to cooperate and to provide any information that was

11 requested. Would that be a fair statement?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And would I be right in saying that if the visiting officers from

14 the Main Staff have been asked to look into the operational situation of

15 the subordinate unit, that it would be normal for them to look at the duty

16 officer's notebook or duty officer's diary in order to familiarise

17 themselves with what happened within the subordinate unit? Would that be

18 correct?

19 A. No, no. The logbook would not be the place for that. The logbook

20 would record the information that was received the previous evening from

21 the subordinated units. As for the ongoing situation, you have to wait

22 until the following evening to see what was going on.

23 Q. Maybe, Colonel, my question was not clear enough. If you have

24 been asked to look into what happened before within the subordinate unit,

25 one of the places you could find this information is indeed into the duty

Page 15157

1 officer's notebook; is that correct?

2 A. Based on the reports of the subordinated commands that we

3 discussed at length yesterday, we can get that information, and as for the

4 subordinated units, the level of the brigade, the Main Staff, I would

5 leave that to the corps.

6 Q. I'm not sure I understand your answer. What I'm trying to get at

7 is you are an experienced military officer who was working at the --

8 within the Main Staff. All I'm asking you is on the basis of your

9 experience, whether, if you want to have information as to what happened

10 within a subordinate unit, one of the places you can find this information

11 is in the duty officer's notebook; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, but not absolutely.

13 Q. And my last question, Colonel, is simply the following: If we are

14 looking at the situation of the officer within the subordinate unit, he

15 would expect you to look at the duty officer's notebook in order to find

16 what happened in the unit; is that correct?

17 A. No. In practice, that was not the case.

18 Q. Okay. Maybe again my question was not clear. We are looking at

19 the situation whereby senior officers from the Main Staff are visiting a

20 subordinate unit. I'm simply suggesting to you that either the commander

21 or the deputy commander of the subordinate unit, they would expect that if

22 I have visitors from the Main Staff, they might very well look into the

23 duty officer's notebook. Would that be a fair statement?

24 A. Counsel, when an officer arrives from the Main Staff to a

25 subordinate unit, the commander or the officer that he finds on the spot

Page 15158

1 briefs him on the situation in the unit. No books or logbooks are

2 inspected.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel. I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. I just want to double --

5 make sure, make double sure with you, Mr. Sarapa, that you don't want to

6 cross-examine the witness.

7 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No. We don't wish to examine.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He's back to you, Mr. McCloskey, for your

9 re-examination. I just want to confirm, since I received three different

10 versions in the course of the day, in the course of the morning, that you

11 have got the latest list of intended Prosecution exhibits. Yes, Mr. --

12 MR. JOSSE: I'm sure we all have, because those of us on the

13 Defence side of the Court have had some discussions about this document.

14 Let me say for our part, and I think this is the stance that we are all

15 taking, we're going to allow for Mr. McCloskey to begin, that doesn't mean

16 to say we won't object as he goes along.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

18 MR. JOSSE: But we are grateful to him for putting us on notice.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps we could resolve this legal issue be --

21 and not --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: What legal issue?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: The issue that the counsel is referring to. I

24 think it might have to do with 65 ter numbers.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I mean, you have to speak out and tell us

Page 15159

1 precisely what the issue is.

2 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, if I can intervene at this time we

3 have been given a list of 23 documents. It appears to us to the best of

4 our knowledge after making a series of verifications that at least 11 of

5 these documents are new documents that were never included in the

6 Prosecution's list of Rule 65 ter list. And when we look at the nature of

7 these documents that would be the basis of any argument we would make, we

8 look at the nature of these documents we cannot find a reason why they

9 would not have been added beforehand and we believe that this is

10 something, these documents should not be used, despite the Court's ruling

11 on this issue and of course we can expand more on our arguments. Thank

12 you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's clear. On the other hand, will you be using

14 all these documents or --

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I never know really in redirect. I

16 had time, I had a list, so I gave it to them. That's not something we

17 normally do or have time but I'd like to respond but I think the witness

18 really shouldn't be here to have to listen to us.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?

21 MR. JOSSE: With respect, I'm quite anxious the Court doesn't deal

22 with this on a general basis. The Gvero Defence wish to deal with it on

23 an individual document-by-document basis.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how it will be done.

25 MR. JOSSE: Indeed our grounds for objection are not just in

Page 15160

1 relation to the fact that the document has not been on the 65 ter list but

2 there is no point in making any submission until my learned friend has

3 been given a chance to go ahead.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. And our position, so we are going to --

5 any further discussion on this for the time being, is we'll wait until we

6 hear an objection and then we will deal with each objection as it arises.

7 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, there's been several arguments that

9 have made. I have not responded to them. I would like to have a chance

10 to respond to them but it's not appropriate that I do it in front of this

11 witness, nor -- and I would prefer that we got the big picture, as

12 Mr. Bourgon brought up, out of the way and that he's not being negated by

13 his colleague. Because I understand that issues should be ripe before

14 they are dealt with, but Mr. Bourgon brought up an issue. There is a

15 suggestion here that this -- these documents perhaps were improperly

16 brought to you and I would like to just, you know, deal with that and not

17 have to ask the witness to leave in the middle of his redirect.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: No, but I don't think there is a possibility of

19 discussing this globally or holistically before we start and we come to

20 the particular documents because it's not just the principle relating to

21 the non-inclusion of these documents on the 65 ter list that is involved

22 here and on which we have already decided for the purpose of redirect.

23 You know that we have handed down a decision and we are not prepared to

24 reopen discussion on that, but as I understand both Mr. Bourgon and Mr.

25 Josse, there are other aspects that they wish to raise and I see no point

Page 15161

1 in raising them now, not even knowing if you will be using these documents

2 or if an objection will be forthcoming in the first place.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Understood, Mr. President. I think they would

4 like to revisit that issue but I guess we'll have to wait and see. I

5 appreciate that. Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the first one does have a number so -- all

8 right.

9 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

10 Q. Colonel, thank you for your patience. You had talked a little bit

11 about recently about some of what you believed General Gvero's position

12 involved, and I want to ask you to take a look at a document that helps

13 define the -- I believe it helps define the position of morale, religious

14 and Legal Officers. It's number 2512, and I've got a hard copy of it for

15 you to take a look at. It's also in e-court but it's kind of long. It

16 comes out of the Main Staff. So I think you may have heard about it. I

17 don't want to spend a whole lot of time with it but it's dated the 10th of

18 February 1995 and it talks about the authority and the filling of

19 personnel vacancies for the organs, the morale, religious and legal

20 affairs.

21 And then it outlines right there on that first page, five

22 different parts of that job, as I understand it, and I just wanted to ask

23 you about your understanding of this, and then as it goes on, it gets a

24 little more detail on each of those five responsibilities. So if we

25 could, as a senior officer of the Main Staff of the VRS, that has been

Page 15162

1 identified by yourself as an expert in artillery and armour, let's take a

2 look at just the -- of the five things they talk about, the first one is

3 moral tradition and cultural activities. I won't ask you about that.

4 Number 2 is informing and psychological propaganda activities.

5 Can you tell us briefly your understanding of what informing and

6 psychological propaganda activities are? And if you want to take a look

7 at the detailed part of that -- in fact, let me just mention those. I'll

8 tell you which ones we'll talk about, then we will go to the detailed

9 part.

10 So The first one I'm going to ask you about is the propaganda

11 activities. I'm not going to ask you about number 3, cooperation with the

12 authority organs and other social subjects. Then it says, as well as

13 international organisations and institutions. That one, I will ask you

14 about. So these two. So, first, let's go to number 2, that's on page 4

15 of the English, and it's under section 2(B) and it says, "Psychological

16 and propaganda activities directed towards our units and population as

17 well as the units and the population of the opponent."

18 And it goes down -- and I'm -- it's right above paragraph 3 where

19 it actually talks a little bit more detail about this, and it

20 says, "Gather information with the purpose of psychological and propaganda

21 activities on enemy forces and population and secure their presentation

22 through the centre for IPPT in order to weakening combat morale of the

23 population and enemy army."

24 Then the next one says, "Realise tight cooperation with

25 intelligence, security and other organs of the command in order to change

Page 15163

1 information and mutual coordination of measures, activities and

2 behaviour."

3 First of all, to your knowledge as a member of the Main Staff, is

4 this propaganda definition that I think is part of the definition they are

5 talking about of the brigade and corps, does this form part of the

6 definition of the job that General Gvero was doing?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?

8 MR. JOSSE: There is an objection. I wanted to allow my learned

9 friend to finish the question. The witness certainly shouldn't hear the

10 objection. I agree with my learned friend about that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. McCloskey, are you aware of

12 [Microphone not activated].

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. Are you aware if Mr. Trkulja understands

15 English?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he may understand a little but I don't

17 know.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trkulja, do you understand English?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless if anyone of you insists that he leaves the

21 courtroom, we'll do that. Mr. Josse?

22 MR. JOSSE: I don't object.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. In other words, he can stay here?

Page 15164

1 Okay. Yes, Mr. Josse?

2 MR. JOSSE: To begin with, that extraordinarily long question

3 deals in part with this document. If, and I'll come to this in a moment,

4 my learned friend is seriously re-examining in relation to the document

5 then the witness is going to need to read the document properly and to

6 have selected snippets of it; in the way that has been done is not

7 satisfactory.

8 But secondly, this is no more than a veiled attempt, through

9 cross -- through re-examination, to introduce this particular document.

10 My learned friend could ask the witness in the most general terms about

11 propaganda perhaps and the role of General Gvero in relation to that

12 particular aspect of his work, but why does he need to show him the

13 document? The document, as I've already said, in effect is intended to

14 lead the witness. The document is in effect there to try and introduce

15 the document into this case through the witness, and in our submission,

16 that isn't acceptable.

17 So I accept that what I've said is mutually inconsistent but I'm

18 putting it as an either/or submission. In other words, our first

19 submission is that he shouldn't be allowed to ask these questions using

20 this document at all. I repeat this is no more than an obvious attempt to

21 introduce the document. But if the Court is against the Defence so far as

22 that's concerned, then we say the witness should be entitled to read this

23 document from beginning to end. He's very sensibly starting to do that

24 now, unsurprisingly. I make no real complaint about that. It's rather

25 interesting that he is doing that. It supports what I'm saying in many

Page 15165

1 ways.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Josse. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, since this objection came with the

4 first question, could we ask the witness to leave? I --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Trkulja, Mr. Trkulja, we need to discuss a few

6 things which cannot be discussed or which are better not discussed in your

7 presence. I suggest -- I'm asking Madam Usher to accompany you out of the

8 courtroom. This will take only a short time and you will be back soon.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 MR. JOSSE: Bearing in mind what my learned friend has just said

11 and inviting the witness to leave, could I also make this general

12 observation which I think will amount to an objection? I invite the

13 Prosecution to inform the Court where this line of re-examination is

14 going. The questions that Mr. Krgovic asked of the witness were no more

15 than those which have previously in effect been asked of other Main Staff

16 witnesses and in our submission, what the Prosecution should not be

17 allowed to do, and they have sought to do this on a number of occasions in

18 this case, is use re-examination as a back door for the

19 examination-in-chief which, for whatever reason, they did not do either

20 properly, fully or in a way that they wanted at the time. Re-examination

21 is not intended to plug the gaps in their case.

22 And, again, my learned friend gives the game away by producing

23 this very long list of documents. We do appreciate that he's done that

24 and indeed Mr. Krgovic had an advantage over Madam Fauveau. At least

25 Mr. Krgovic had an opportunity to see the documents before he finished his

Page 15166

1 cross-examination. I have to accept that on the Gvero Defence's behalf.

2 Madam Fauveau might have an argument to say she didn't even know that

3 these documents were going to be used at all at the point that she had

4 completed her cross-examination, but she's quite capable of making that

5 submission herself in due course, but we do submit that really this is an

6 improper use of re-examination.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Josse. Mr. McCloskey?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can assure Mr. Josse, Mr. President, that the

9 Prosecution does not view this as a game. And I think, after a year

10 together, you know how many times I've stood up and said no questions on

11 redirect. It's been the vast majority. But as I heard the

12 cross-examination, as you know, I did not ask this witness probably for

13 obvious reasons to go into the definition of Mr. Miletic's job or General

14 Gvero's job. That was not the purpose of my direct. You saw the purpose

15 of my direct. Mr. Gvero and Mr. Miletic had this witness talk about their

16 job. I seem to remember that my memorable about Miletic is that he's the

17 mailman, he opens mail, and that's all he does.

18 This witness talked briefly about General Gvero issuing I think

19 press releases and then his last few statements is that despite working

20 with him for several years, he doesn't have any idea of what he does and

21 knows nothing about it. And so this opens a door. This is not something

22 I went in on direct. They are basically as we could see went beyond the

23 scope of the -- of my -- sorry, they went beyond the scope of the

24 examination, which is their right. It's not something I object to because

25 we don't want to have to call the witness back but they went beyond the

Page 15167

1 scope.

2 They went into the definition of the job. Basically described the

3 job as he did in those terms and one of his big jobs was creating a chess

4 board. So they have opened the door. I spent a good part of yesterday,

5 you know, identifying key issues related to the job definition so that I

6 could put those before you and ask this professional officer to comment on

7 them briefly. They opened that door wide open. It's not one I intended

8 to get into with this witness but now that it's open I would like to have

9 the chance to be able to do it.

10 I'm relying on your previous ruling that some documents don't

11 necessarily have to have a 65 ter number. We've looked at these

12 documents, they've all been provided to the Defence. Some of them do not

13 have 65 ter numbers. We found some of them relatively recently and

14 they've either been given to the Defence and then put on our next motion

15 for 65 ter numbers or sometimes we e-mailed the Defence saying look we

16 found one that doesn't. But we know what your ruling has been regarding

17 the redirect. This allegation that this is somehow I'm improperly trying

18 to slide documents in is just inappropriate and unnecessary. I'm not

19 trying to play a game with you to do this.

20 I would prefer to sit down and let Mr. Vanderpuye go to work but

21 these doors have been wide open and Miletic's door is that the witness

22 also stated that he didn't -- the Main Staff didn't know anything about

23 the Srebrenica operation until it happened. Now, that's -- wasn't the

24 Prosecution's position to give the Court a blow by blow of every time the

25 Main Staff may have heard information about the Srebrenica operation. As

Page 15168

1 you saw, I stuck with the 12, the 13th of July and the Main Staff's direct

2 involvement in the crimes of this case. But now that they've had this

3 witness say, "All of us in the Main Staff" and he was talking for all of

4 them, "We didn't know anything about the Srebrenica operation." So I've

5 got a few documents, some have 65 ter, some don't, that shed light on this

6 issue when the Main Staff became aware of various aspects of the

7 Srebrenica operation. I won't -- you know me, I'm not a real talker if I

8 can help it, and I hope to do this relatively quickly and the reason I was

9 talking that first document is to make him comfortable, give him a chance

10 to look at it and then go over the key parts of it so that's the

11 Prosecution's position on this issue.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Madam Fauveau, I also noticed

13 your client has been standing wishing to tell us something. Do you wish

14 to go first?

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I would like to

16 ask for your leave to let me speak first.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please, you want to speak first, so General,

18 could you sit down, please?

19 THE ACCUSED MILETIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't

20 intend to speak at great length, but I suppose do I have the right to say

21 something.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You will, but first I'm giving the floor to your

23 lawyer and then you will have your chance so please sit down and Madam

24 Fauveau will say what she needs to say. Yes, Madam Fauveau?

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. First of

Page 15169

1 all, I would like to say that we never advanced the theory that

2 Mr. Miletic was a mailman and more importantly, the position, the tasks

3 and the duties and functions of General Miletic are at the very heart of

4 the Prosecution case. It has been challenged from the beginning. So the

5 Prosecutor cannot say that we now have a witness who we have in front of

6 us who is from the Main Staff is somebody we will not deal with

7 seriously. He asked himself about that, as for knowledge about

8 Srebrenica, what the Defence did was to respond to issues that were raised

9 by the Prosecution in their examination-in-chief. Moreover, we explicitly

10 relied on the witness's evidence. So I believe it is completely

11 inappropriate to say that it was the cross-examination that opened the

12 door into some completely new matters.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam. General Miletic?

14 THE ACCUSED MILETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to

15 use the words of the gentleman across this room. I would like, though, to

16 be able to attend this trial without being insulted. I don't know what

17 education this gentleman has received, but from what he says, I can see

18 how much he knows. I would appreciate it if he could refrain from

19 insulting me as a person. Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And General Miletic, it's not

22 my intention to ever insult this -- any of the accused. I don't take this

23 personal. I was paraphrasing the answer of the Colonel when he talked

24 about opening the mail and he didn't -- he didn't have much authority to

25 do anything but opening the mail, something to that effect. That's my

Page 15170

1 paraphrase. If it's a little rough, I apologise, but that was

2 fundamentally what he said in answer to some question.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Josse?

4 MR. JOSSE: A brief right to reply if I may to what Mr. McCloskey

5 said in response to my submissions. We contend that the questions that

6 Mr. Krgovic asked were basically those the witness had been asked in the

7 course of his interview. For the most part Mr. Krgovic directed the

8 witness to the interview. Of note, though this doesn't come out in the

9 course of cross-examination, I'm sure it won't be disputed, the document

10 that he cross-examined on today, P45, a document of some importance in the

11 case of General Gvero, the witness was asked about in the course of his

12 interview, unlike the vast swathe of documents that appear on the list

13 that we have received today. And to that extent, we submit that there is

14 a real difference between the questions Mr. Krgovic asked and those that

15 my learned friend proposes now to ask.

16 Finally, could I endorse what Madam Fauveau has just said? The

17 questions that Mr. Krgovic asked of this witness are fundamental to the

18 defence of my client. Yes, it may be that there is a certain amount of

19 humour in relation to the chess document. But basically, the thrust of

20 that cross-examination is identical to the case that we have advanced

21 throughout this case. It doesn't take my learned friend by surprise at

22 all. He chose to call Colonel Trkulja. This ultimately is a trial being

23 run on traditional common law grounds; to this extent, if he chooses to

24 call him, then he's by the rules of examination, cross-examination and

25 re-examination, and he can't, in effect, seek to cross-examine the witness

Page 15171

1 with this vast array of documents. So for these various reasons we

2 object.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Briefly. This is precisely why I need to get into

5 the real definition of this job. We've talked about chess, we've talked

6 about other light weight issues associated with General Gvero's job. And

7 I won't repeat some of what he said about General Gvero's knowledge and

8 what he said about his lack of ability. But this document is the job.

9 It's the reality of the job, and it was not something I wanted to get

10 into, but when they take a Prosecution witness down that road and

11 concentrate on you suggesting he's dealing with chess, he's dealing with

12 other issues that are not substantive and they don't get into any of the

13 substantive issues, the propaganda issues, the dealings with the

14 international community issues, it's incumbent upon me, important that I

15 get you back to the issues of the case with this witness. And that's the

16 only reason why I've done it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to

19 intervene at the appropriate time concerning the Court's ruling concerning

20 the use of documents which are not on the Rule 65 ter list and maybe that

21 it is the right time to do it now, given that the witness is already

22 outside. It's with your leave, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not open for discussion. That has been

24 decided. We have handed down a ruling on that. And we don't want to hear

25 further submissions on the same issue.

Page 15172

1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 So let's bring -- wait before we bring in the witness. We need to

4 discuss a little bit.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I notice General --

7 THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

8 just a few words. I have the impression, with all due respect to the

9 Prosecutor and Your Honours, that it is necessary to say the following:

10 This document which would have been introduced sooner or later about the

11 duties and responsibilities of the organ for morale, religious and legal

12 affairs has been introduced without any connection with

13 examination-in-chief. Apart from that, my Defence team has had no

14 opportunity to consult me about it and professionally speaking, they are

15 ignorant of many important things in that area. Therefore, I believe it

16 is inappropriate to introduce such sensitive documentation and argument in

17 this way.

18 In addition to that, out of seven pages of this document, the

19 Prosecutor invokes only one little bit on the penultimate page. That

20 little bit, Your Honours, requires a lot of knowledge about the

21 methodology of work in order to be grasped properly and explained. Done

22 this way, it will be introduced into the debate on the subject in a very

23 inadequate way. I don't mind having it discussed, but I do mind its

24 introduction in this way, which might lead to inappropriate conclusions

25 being made later.

Page 15173

1 Speaking of this material, there is a lot of evidence that

2 concerning the operation Srebrenica, some other superior commander took

3 responsibility for propaganda and similar activities, which shows that it

4 was outside my purview. I can perhaps even point you to the page. I

5 would like the Court to understand it properly and I do object to having

6 documents introduced in this way, if they are crucial for proper

7 understanding. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, General Gvero. I suppose the best policy

9 would be to allow your counsel to raise the appropriate objections at the

10 right time rather than intervene at times only to prove the need for some

11 further questions to be put on the issue. However, you have made one

12 point that is definitely important, and I will say it subject to agreement

13 by my colleagues, namely that if you feel that you require some time to

14 consult with your counsel on this document, the reason being that you have

15 not been given the opportunity to discuss it with them, you will be

16 allowed the appropriate time and opportunity to do so.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, just it may be helpful. This has

19 been on the 65 ter list since December 6, 2006 and your ruling, so it's

20 not a new document but I do think the general is correct, he should be

21 able to talk with his counsel about it.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Josse, do you also wish to have

24 a chance to consult with your client on this document?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will.

Page 15174

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will have the break very soon so that you will

4 have the opportunity to consult, but before we do so, we will hand down

5 our ruling on the points raised by you, Mr. Josse. In relation -- this

6 applies only in relation to the points raised by you. They do not

7 necessarily apply to the points raised by you, Ms. Fauveau. We'll come to

8 that later on, if there is an objection, an ad hoc objection.

9 The position is you're right, Mr. Josse, in suggesting that

10 Colonel Trkulja should have an opportunity, full opportunity, to read the

11 entire document before he is asked any questions on it, in whole or in

12 part. Second point we wish to rule about is that we have followed both

13 the examination-in-chief and the cross -- and your cross-examination, or

14 that of Mr. Krgovic, and both during cross-examination and during the

15 testimony of Mr. Trkulja on cross-examination, the qualifications, role,

16 functions and activities of General Gvero came to highlight, and in view

17 of that, we have no doubt in our mind that the Prosecution has a right on

18 re-examination to go into these issues and for that purpose to use the

19 document that we have in front of us.

20 So we'll have a break now, instead of having the break at quarter

21 to 4.00, we are having it now. That will give you, Ms. Fauveau as well,

22 the opportunity to consult with your client, and you Mr. Krgovic or

23 Mr. Josse, I don't know, or anyone else, for that matter, to consult with

24 your clients. Thank you.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 15175

1 JUDGE AGIUS: 25 minutes.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.24 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 3.55 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?

5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. First of all, let me make it

6 clear that we are not seeking to go behind the ruling that the Chamber has

7 already made. But bearing in mind the Chamber kindly allowed us to see

8 our client. Following that consultation, we have one further submission,

9 and it's this: We would invite the Chamber to instruct the Prosecution to

10 ask the witness in relation to each and every document whether the witness

11 has previously seen the document, and if so, in what context. In other

12 words, at the time of these events or subsequently in an interview or in a

13 proofing session.

14 If the witness says that he has never seen the document, then we

15 do ask rhetorically on what basis the witness is being asked about the

16 document. If it's as an expert, then we invite the Chamber to consider

17 whether he is a suitable and appropriate expert bearing in mind his

18 expertise appears to be tanks and armoured mechanical vehicles in

19 general. If it's not as an expert, then we ask on what basis is he being

20 asked these questions? Those are our further submissions, thank you.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I would object to being ordered on which

23 questions to ask. In particular, it's the concepts that this document

24 sets forth that I'm most interested in and it's only in response to what

25 the Court very clearly said, that Defence got into on cross-examination

Page 15176

1 the job description, the duties, the authority of this position. Those

2 are the concepts in this document that I'm interested in asking this

3 witness about.

4 I will probably, just because it's a Main Staff document and

5 something he may have seen, you know, ask that question and I should. But

6 it's not as counsel wishes as a foundation not to ask any more. I think I

7 can ask him about the concepts in this document: Does he know that, for

8 example, General Gvero takes part in talking to international agencies?

9 Does he know General Gvero has close contact with intelligence and

10 security organs, as this thing says? This kind of thing, I should be able

11 to do and based as the material that's in the document itself.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Number 1, we are all here used to systems whereby

14 it's -- usually the Judge doesn't tell the parties what questions or what

15 procedure to follow. In any case, our position is that without telling

16 you what to do and what not to do at this stage, Mr. McCloskey, I think

17 the point made by Mr. Josse, namely that the Trial Chamber should have

18 before it knowledge as to whether a particular document has -- is already

19 known to the witness is an important matter, and, again, I think we should

20 know that -- get that information in relation to each document that you

21 will be putting to the witness.

22 Second thing raised by -- second matter raised by Mr. Josse, I

23 think, doesn't deserve much more comment than what I'm going to say,

24 namely that at no point have we had an indication that this witness was

25 being dealt with either by the Prosecution or a by the Defence as an

Page 15177

1 expert. Our question is if according, as you said, Mr. Josse, he is only

2 knowledgeable about the particular division that he was in charge of, why

3 on earth ask him so many questions in the first place on the role of a

4 general or assistant commander.

5 But in any case, what we have decided is that at the end, if when

6 Mr. McCloskey has finished, if you show cause why you should put further

7 questions to the witness on re-cross, we will consider allowing that,

8 depending on circumstances.

9 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So are we ready to bring in the

11 witness? Yes.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other thing I forgot to mention that

14 obviously if it's the case of a document that needs going through on the

15 part of the witness, we will, of course, allow that.

16 Colonel, we are back. We have discussed what we needed to discuss

17 and I think Mr. McCloskey is now in a position to proceed with his

18 redirect. Mr. McCloskey?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise if I --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, Colonel.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have completed

22 command staff academy. The documents that were drafted, Gvero and some of

23 his assistants completed political schools, and they were familiar with

24 this. The school that I finished doesn't teach you to draft documents

25 like the one I have before me. When it comes to such documents, I am a

Page 15178

1 layperson.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you for that information. And thank

3 you also for your patience, Colonel.

4 Mr. McCloskey?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. And thank you, Colonel. I notice you brought the document back.

7 Did you have a -- sorry for having you work at the break but did you have

8 a chance to review it so that you were -- at least have a chance to review

9 it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And I don't intend to get into technical details with

12 you about this job but I just wanted to ask you a few questions. Do you

13 remember having seen this document ever before?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ever hear about it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. I just -- under the title, "Within psychological and

18 propaganda activities," I just want to ask you, did you know that one of

19 General Gvero's job was to take part in propaganda?

20 A. I knew of some things only superficially. All this was part of

21 his sector, and I'm not able to provide you any more details because all

22 that would be merely a guessing game and it would be beside the point.

23 Q. Okay. We don't need to get into details but I'm just trying to

24 see if some of these points in the document are something you had any

25 knowledge about. So you do have some knowledge that this propaganda was

Page 15179

1 part of his job, I guess. Then let me ask you about -- it's right under

2 propaganda. It says, "Realise tight cooperation with intelligence,

3 security and other organs of the command in order to exchange" -- is the

4 proper English translation that I'm agreed upon with counsel --

5 MR. JOSSE: Accepted.


7 Q. "Exchange information and mutual coordination of measures,

8 activities and behaviour."

9 So did have you any knowledge as part of General Gvero's job, he

10 should have a tight cooperation with the intelligence and security organs?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. That's not something you heard about. All right.

13 Let's go to this last section. It's entitled, "Other social

14 subjects such as international organisations and institutions."

15 Do you see that? It's within paragraph 3 of the document, right

16 before paragraph 4, entitled, "Legal affairs." Do you see the legal

17 affairs section there at the bottom?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Just look up right above legal affairs is the section I'm

20 talking about and it's a simple question: This document says that it's

21 part of the job to, in section D, cooperate with the Red Cross

22 organisation, Commission for Refugees, and other humanitarian

23 organisations in order to resolve living problems of soldiers and their

24 families.

25 Did you know that that was part of his job, General Gvero's?

Page 15180

1 A. Believe me, I never discussed things with Gvero and his assistant

2 Sokanovic and others. I never asked them what their competences were,

3 what they were authorised to do, no.

4 Q. But this -- it says helping resolve the living problems of

5 soldiers and their families. You must have known if General Gvero was

6 helping soldiers in issues of morale and with all the tragedies of war.

7 Don't you know anything about that?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

9 MR. JOSSE: Must have known sounds very much like a leading

10 question, in our submission.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think you ought to rephrase the question,

12 Mr. McCloskey.


14 Q. Did you know?

15 A. I never took any of their documents in my hands, I never read any

16 of them. And in conversations, well...

17 Q. Okay. Let's look at the other one. It says, "F, cooperate with

18 UNPROFOR and international humanitarian organisations according to the

19 views, instructions and orders of the superior commands."

20 Did you know -- and I say especially at the time of Srebrenica --

21 that General Gvero -- or whether or not General Gvero was speaking to

22 UNPROFOR commanders, was speaking to UNPROFOR representatives?

23 A. No, I didn't. General Gvero was the commander's assistant and I

24 could see him only if I was invited.

25 Q. Didn't you say he had something to do with press reports or

Page 15181

1 issuing press statements?

2 A. He must have had, because nobody else was designated to do those

3 things, and in any case, all that fell under the larger or broader area of

4 morale.

5 Q. All right. Well, on that issue of dealing with the press or the

6 international organisations, do you remember back in around the time that

7 Srebrenica fell, 11 through about 17 of July, General Gvero getting in a

8 big disagreement or problem with President Karadzic?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Let me ask to you take that look at a document, and it's number

11 2756, and I'll give you a copy in Serbian. I think I've given you the

12 right one. And take your time to take a look at it. It's dated 17 July.

13 It's to the Main Staff of the VRS, General Gvero, assistant commander for

14 morale, religious and legal affairs personally, dated 17 July 1995. And

15 we see that's from the president of the republic and the Supreme Commander

16 of the Republika Srpska armed forces, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

17 A. I've read it.

18 Q. Okay. It begins --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear the issue whether he's seen this

20 document before.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

22 Q. Have you seen this document before?

23 A. No, no, no.

24 Q. Have you heard about this obvious -- well, what I believe is

25 obvious, an obvious, serious disagreement between the president and

Page 15182

1 General Gvero?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Are you aware of General Gvero sabotaging --

4 A. No.

5 Q. Better let me finish, because I don't want to suggest General

6 Gvero sabotaging as a saboteur. Let me finish. Did he sabotage any order

7 of President Karadzic pertaining to the information ministry's exclusive

8 task of information?

9 A. I haven't a clue. At the command post, we never discussed such

10 things. We never went into the details of relation -- the relationship

11 between Gvero and others. No, we never discussed that.

12 Q. So none of these things that the president is accusing General

13 Gvero of, had you heard about?

14 A. Sir, this could have only been discussed in the inner circle of

15 the command. When it comes to the broader circle...

16 Q. In your experience, you don't think this kind of a conflict might

17 find its way out into officers such as yourself that are down in the

18 bunker with these guys?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, I have General Gvero's response to this, which, given the

21 answers to the questions, I won't ask him about unless counsel wants or

22 the Court would like to see it. Okay.

23 All right. There is a -- I now would like to go to this document,

24 it's number 45, it's the 13 July order in the name of General Gvero that

25 counsel spoke briefly about, you and I had spoke briefly about it. I

Page 15183

1 think you have established on cross-examination that General Gvero did not

2 actually type this or draft this order and that it came out of the

3 operations unit. How do you know it -- from those numbers that it came

4 out of the operations unit?

5 A. This document was recorded by the operative officer and I'm

6 reading the number here, 03/4-1629. That's how it was recorded.

7 Q. How do we know that's the operative organ? Is that their number

8 or --

9 A. I believe so. I believe that you will find that number in their

10 registry book.

11 Q. So who do you think would have actually drafted this order for the

12 signature of General Gvero?

13 A. I believe that it would have been Miletic.

14 Q. I want to call your attention to the first paragraph, and I'm

15 going to ask you about -- you said -- it says based on instructions

16 received. So clearly those, as I think you've stated, those -- this --

17 the information in this document came from instructions from somewhere

18 else; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And again where do you -- if -- where would you think those

21 instructions would have come from?

22 A. They -- these pieces of information or instruction could have only

23 come from the commander. Nobody else had the right to order something

24 like that.

25 Q. Once this document goes down under General Gvero's name, is he

Page 15184

1 responsible for it?

2 A. The person responsible is the person who provided the instruction.

3 Q. But if a senior officer passes on an order, is that senior officer

4 that knowingly passes on an order also responsible for it?

5 A. Every document, every order, has the introductory part which

6 connects that order to a certain person or to a certain previous order.

7 Here, this document is connected. It is linked to a person, to a figure.

8 Q. Of course it is, as are most orders, but what I'm asking is when a

9 senior officer like General Gvero gets this kind of information, signs off

10 for it and passes it throughout the VRS, is he now in part responsible for

11 the order?

12 A. No. No. Because of the first sentence.

13 Q. So if General Mladic issues an illegal order to someone in the

14 Main Staff and that Main Staff person passes it on to the corps and that

15 corps person passes it on to the brigade and that brigade person passes it

16 on to the battalion and that battalion person passes it on to the other

17 organs, General Mladic is the only one that's responsible; is that

18 correct? Is that what you're saying? Or is general -- excuse me, is

19 General Mladic the only one responsible?

20 A. No, no.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Finish what you had to say, Colonel.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If something is illegal, if it's

25 against the state, against its people, then the first person in line who

Page 15185

1 receives that illegal order is not duty-bound to carry that order out.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?

3 MR. JOSSE: Our submission was that that question, A, calls for

4 speculation, and/or in effect went to the realm of expertise.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you. I think the witness is

6 being asked questions which are within his knowledge. If he knows, he

7 knows. If he doesn't know, if he can't answer, he's free to tell us, "I

8 don't know." Let's proceed, Mr. McCloskey.


10 Q. Colonel, I understand your answer that an officer receiving an

11 illegal order is not duty-bound to follow it. But if he passes that order

12 on in the chain that I discussed, is he in part responsible for that?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have exhausted this area. Let's move on

14 to a different question, Mr. McCloskey. He's answered you.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Now, in the first paragraph of this order, it says, "Based on

17 instructions received, and following defeat in the Srebrenica enclave, the

18 men from the enclave fit for military service were tasked with crossing

19 over to Tuzla and Kladanj in groups and carrying weapons. Among them are

20 inveterate criminals and villains who will stop at nothing just to avoid

21 being captured and reach Muslim-controlled territory."

22 Were you aware at the time on July 13th, that General Mladic or

23 General Gvero were referring to the Muslim men and civilians as inveterate

24 criminals and villains?

25 A. No.

Page 15186

1 Q. Is this how you believe the Main Staff viewed the Muslims at the

2 time?

3 A. Well, you see, there is another order there, and there is another

4 order involving 5.000 people who passed through. This is all

5 speculation. This is all -- one still didn't know how big the convoy was,

6 where it was headed to, what it was up to.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you, Colonel. I'd like to ask you if you have

8 knowledge of another document, and that's document 131. And I can show

9 you, there is an original, looks like a -- well, a typed version. I don't

10 know about original. And then there is a handwritten version as well. Go

11 ahead and take a look at it. This one is from General Tolimir. It's 13

12 July. On 13 July, were you personally aware -- I'm sorry, let me know

13 once you've had a chance to finish.

14 A. No, no. I've finished. I finished reading. This was never read

15 at the Main Staff. This is the first time I see this paper.

16 Q. Okay. How about the information in it? Let me ask you a couple

17 of questions. Were you aware about hundreds of prisoners from Srebrenica

18 on 13 -- in the custody of the VRS on 13 July 1995?

19 A. No. I believe that nobody at the command post was aware of that.

20 Q. And the first PO, PBR, in Semec [phoen], what does that mean?

21 Petrinja light infantry brigade?

22 A. This is an infantry brigade but I don't know what the other

23 letters stand for. It could be their location where they were deployed, I

24 suppose.

25 Q. All right.

Page 15187

1 A. I can't remember which brigade this is. But it is an infantry

2 brigade.

3 Q. Do you know of any reason why such a group of people could be used

4 for agricultural work in that area and why they would need to be

5 transported at night and not be in contact with other prisoners? Any idea

6 about this?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Any idea why this would be sent to General Gvero?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Okay. Now, you testified on cross-examination, you stated that

11 the Main Staff didn't know about the operation against Srebrenica until

12 reports started coming in. Can you clarify that for us? When do you

13 believe the Main Staff first became aware of the July operation to take

14 down Srebrenica?

15 A. When the reports started coming in, but even then we didn't know

16 which forces, where, how they are advancing. In fact, we didn't know

17 which forces were taking part in the Srebrenica operation or the losses.

18 Q. Okay. And when you say when the reports started coming in, what

19 do you mean? What, roughly, when did reports start coming in?

20 A. Well, they started coming in as the units started advancing,

21 conquering one part of the territory after another, until final

22 liberation.

23 Q. Okay. So if I can tell you historically, the first big movement

24 was July 6th, do you know how many -- roughly how many days prior to July

25 6th you would have gotten information about this operation, the Main Staff

Page 15188

1 and yourself, that is?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau? One moment.

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe this is

5 speculation. If the Prosecutor wants to show the report to the witness, I

6 have nothing against it, but how can he ask how many days before the 6th

7 if the witness doesn't even know that there was something on the 6th?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was assuming the witness, since he described the

10 movements of the troops, that if he could just start from the part where

11 he was aware of the movement of the troops, just roughly how long before

12 the movement of the troops did he get reports.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But he obviously doesn't know. So let's move.


15 Q. Do you have any idea? I mean a month?

16 I mean, it would make a big difference on how many documents I

17 show him is why.

18 A month before the operation started? A week before? Can you

19 give us your best -- don't guess but if you know.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, that again is speculation

22 because the Prosecutor himself uses the word "guess." I don't see the

23 purpose of such evidence even if given.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the Prosecutor has done precisely tried to

25 avoid what you objected to. He's telling the witness straight and plain

Page 15189

1 that he is not to speculate, he is not to guess. If he knows, he knows,

2 if he doesn't, he will tell us that he doesn't. So let's move forward.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. All right. Well, let's see if we can go over some documents and

5 perhaps this will refresh your recollection about when the Main Staff

6 would have been aware of the attack on Srebrenica.

7 Let's go to a document that was, I believe, discussed briefly with

8 you by counsel. It's known to us as directive 7. You talked about it a

9 bit and I've got a -- P00005. I've got it and I think I've marked it

10 under the section of Drina Corps. You've talked about this a bit

11 already. And if you could just read that paragraph about the Drina Corps,

12 it's pretty short. Do you see Drina Corps mentioned there? I think if

13 you go to that red tab, it should be the Drina Corps section but feel free

14 to look at the entire document, of course, if you need to.

15 Okay. And I won't read that whole section, but it -- as you've

16 just read, it does say, and this as we know is an order or a directive

17 from President Karadzic, "While in the direction of the Srebrenica and

18 Zepa enclaves, complete physical separation of Srebrenica and Zepa should

19 be carried out as soon as possible." It says a bit more.

20 And then it says, "By planned and well-thought-out combat

21 operations." And then it talks about the objective which I don't think I

22 need to go over. It's at English page 10, B/C/S page 15.

23 Is this an order from President Karadzic to develop a plan as soon

24 as possible to separate the enclaves and such?

25 A. Most probably it is, but there is no date here to indicate when it

Page 15190

1 would have been drafted, and he didn't -- he gave names to individual

2 operations, so it's absolutely clear.

3 Q. Okay. And, well, in your experience, when the president

4 says, "Get an operation going as soon as possible," can you give us an

5 idea of militarily how the generals respond to that? Is it something they

6 just can forget about or is it something that they would act on? If you

7 can answer.

8 A. Well, I can only tell you on the basis of my experience, although

9 I was not present in this specific case when this was read or processed

10 and worked on, but based on my experience, whatever the commander, supreme

11 commander, orders has to be executed as soon as possible.

12 Q. Is this an order that you were aware of, this directive?

13 A. Not a single organ of the branches of service was familiar with

14 this directive.

15 Q. Well, there is -- and I won't get into it but in paragraph 6 of

16 this, on English 14, under support for combat operations, there is a whole

17 section on morale and psychological support. And I would guess that with

18 all these activities, that armour would be something that would be a

19 consideration as well. But given that, I understand your answer. Do you

20 want to change it after taking a look at -- your answer about not a single

21 organ was mentioned to this?

22 A. No. I meant organs of the staff, chiefs of engineering,

23 artillery, et cetera. I don't know about the rest.

24 Q. All right. And just -- just to go on briefly a little bit under

25 that Drina Corps section, it also talks about, in the next paragraph, that

Page 15191

1 in case the UNPROFOR forces leave Zepa and Srebrenica, the Drina Corps

2 command shall plan an operation named Jadar with the task of breaking up

3 and destroying the Muslim forces in these enclaves and definitively

4 liberating the Drina valley region.

5 Were you aware of that part of that, that they not only wanted to

6 separate the enclaves but if UNPROFOR left, actually to take the enclaves

7 and liberate them completely?

8 A. I've already given you an answer. I was not familiar with the

9 entirety of this directive. That means this, what follows, and everything

10 till the end.

11 Q. It says here that the planning of this operation shall be the

12 responsibility of the Drina Corps command. In planning an operation of

13 this sort, would the Drina Corps communicate its plans with the Main

14 Staff?

15 A. As a rule, the instruction for the work of command staff, any plan

16 made by a subordinate unit is submitted to the commander for signature.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the Prosecutor

19 could tell us exactly which passage he read, because in this passage, we

20 see references to at least three operations. I would like to know to

21 which operation this particular sentence applies.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

23 MR. JOSSE: Just before he does that, on a logistical matter, Your

24 Honour, I don't think the screen is changing the text. So I suspect the

25 accused are unable to follow this cross-examination. Certainly, it hasn't

Page 15192

1 changed for the last few minutes. So I think the operator, and I can

2 understand this, is having difficulty keeping up with the

3 cross-examination, in other words.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you both. Let's attend first to the matter

5 raised by Mr. Josse. I am not in a position to know, because I don't

6 understand the language, especially if it's in Serbian. What page are we

7 on?

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But the Drina Corps is the second half of the page,

10 isn't it?

11 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: This section that I'm talking about is just a few

13 short paragraphs, and my question was a general one. It was when the --

14 what was my question? When the corps is planning an operation would they

15 normally communicate or coordinate with the Main Staff, an operation, any

16 operation.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's be specific first in relation to the

18 paragraph that you were referring the witness to, because apparently, as I

19 understood, there are several paragraphs relating to the Drina Corps.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. I think he's able to follow me. It starts

21 with -- it's page 11 in the English. It's the third paragraph down. In

22 the B/C/S it would be the fourth paragraph. In the Serbian it should be

23 the fourth paragraph under the Drina Corps section. And it just

24 says "Planning and execution of combat actions in both operations shall

25 be the responsibility of the Drina Corps command."

Page 15193

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau?

2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, and that goes

3 on, this appears [In English] to be executed after the end of the Spreca

4 95 operation and before Prozor 95. [Interpretation] So the only thing I

5 want to know is what is the link between these operations and the Krivaja

6 operation, which is our only concern here.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. McCloskey? I think I can

8 identify in Cyrillic now the paragraph that you were referring to.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: All I'm doing is asking --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But I can't help you more than that.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It wasn't my intention to get into too much detail

12 about these other operations. I can a little bit but -- and I will, if

13 that will help counsel, but I would like first to get my -- see if I can

14 get an answer from my question that when you see an order or when the

15 main -- when the corps is designated to plan an operation, would they

16 normally work or coordinate or communicate with the Main Staff? This of

17 course is central to the theme of redirect.



20 Q. Colonel, does that make sense? I'm sorry to -- sometimes we take

21 a while to get a question out.

22 A. There is some sense but believe me, after the operation, they

23 didn't bring any documentation to the Main Staff so that the entire Main

24 Staff could review it, so I cannot give you an answer as to whether they

25 brought anything, when, or how. I told you I didn't know anything about

Page 15194

1 Krivaja and the other operations which were never carried out any way,

2 until the reports started coming in.

3 Q. Okay. Were you -- did you take any part or did you get any

4 assignment in this operation that's the next one down? Let me just keep

5 reading from where I left off. "By the end of March, an agreement with

6 the east Bosnia corps command, take part in the planning of Spreca 95

7 operation, which has the task of cutting off the Muslim armed forces along

8 the Kalesija-Simin Han line and then breaking them up and destroying them

9 in the region of Teocak, Sapna and Vitinica, thus finally removing the

10 danger of a Muslim breakthrough towards the Drina north of Zvornik."

11 Do you remember taking part or helping out in any way in that, in

12 Spreca 95, as it's described in this document?

13 A. Excuse me, I have to cast my mind back a little. I don't know

14 what operation that was. I know I helped a tank company from the

15 Protection Regiment to be transferred to that area somewhere. Whether it

16 was Spreca or not, I don't know.

17 Q. All right. Thank you.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness said something

19 at the end that sounded vaguely like, "But it didn't work."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this what you wanted to refer to, Mr. Krgovic?

21 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes. It wasn't successful, he exactly said

22 something like that.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree to that, Colonel? In other words, that

24 when you were answering the last question, you said, whether it was Spreca

25 or not, I don't know, did you add something about this operation being

Page 15195

1 successful or not successful?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it wasn't.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

5 Q. General, were you -- did you hear any information about a planned

6 attack by the Drina Corps around the Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves, planned

7 for 15 May 1995?

8 A. You mean me?

9 Q. Yes. Did you hear, you at the Main Staff? I take it you were at

10 the Main Staff in May of -- April, May of 1995. Did you hear about any

11 plan to attack the enclave in order to set up a further attack on the

12 enclaves? Anything like that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If you can look at another document, it's number 204. It's a --

15 and I'll give you the original we have or a -- excuse me, a Serbian of

16 it. And again take -- you can take your time.

17 I'm not going to get into a lot of details with you on this but if

18 you could -- it's a good idea to see if this refreshes your recollection.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Your remembrance of the tank in the Spreca operation gave me some

21 confidence you might be able to remember some things. We can see in this

22 document, which is dated 15 May 1995, that General Krstic -- excuse me.

23 It says Colonel Krstic at the time, as the deputy commander of the Drina

24 Corps, is ordering -- you can see it on page 2 of the English -- "I order

25 as soon as possible, using the neighbouring forces around the Zepa

Page 15196

1 enclaves," and it goes on and talks about the Zepa enclave, the Srebrenica

2 enclave and various forces, and an offensive operation.

3 And if you look at it, interestingly enough, on -- under paragraph

4 3.1, page 3 of 5 in the English, and scattered throughout this document

5 are references to the 65th ZMTP company. Is that the 65th Protection

6 Regiment?

7 A. I think so.

8 Q. And is the 65th Protection Regiment a unit of the Main Staff?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There is also a reference to the 67th -- I think it's

11 Communications Regiment. Is that a unit of the Main Staff?

12 A. 67th Communications Regiment, yes. It's a unit of the Main Staff.

13 Q. And do you have any recollection of General Krstic working

14 closely, involving units of the Main Staff in this operation? Any

15 recollection at all?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The witness answered, but if he

19 could say whether he remembers this document, if he had seen it before,

20 and if he remembers this particular operation.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. McCloskey?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm trying my best to ask the questions,

23 Mr. President. I don't understand -- I think I'm asking him if he has any

24 memory of this operation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: From his answer, which was a no, to your question,

Page 15197

1 he doesn't seem to have that he has any recollection at all, but again,

2 that was limited to the question that you put. So what Mrs. Fauveau has

3 raised is whether he remembers this document. I think we have an

4 indication that he doesn't, but I don't want to steal words from him.

5 Perhaps we can ask the questions ourselves, Mr. McCloskey, and make it

6 easier on you.

7 Colonel, did you ever see this document before today?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you remember the particular operation that

10 General Krstic refers to in this document?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can leave it at that and proceed to the

13 next question, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Now, I'd like you now to go to a document -- this is document

16 9398, dated the same date, 16 May 1995. 2892 is the number. And this is

17 a combat report from the Drina Corps to the Main Staff. It's the kind of

18 document that you received in assembling the Main Staff reports. And

19 there is a paragraph in this that I -- I don't have an English translation

20 but if you could read this paragraph for us, it's paragraph 8, actually,

21 if we could scroll to paragraph 8, let me give this to you so you can --

22 you can read it, the whole thing. But you can take a look at the whole

23 document.

24 A. Prosecutor, sir, this document did not reach -- look at the

25 heading -- did not reach Crna Rijeka, nor the place where the commander

Page 15198

1 was in Zvornik.

2 Q. How do you know that?

3 A. Well, look, it's written to the Main Staff of the VRS, IKM 1, Main

4 Staff of the VRS, Zvornik.

5 Q. And what was the IKM of the Main Staff doing in Zvornik on May

6 15th, if you know?

7 A. I don't know what the commander was doing.

8 Q. All right. Well, wouldn't a copy of that been sent on to Crna

9 Rijeka as well?

10 A. Well, it would have been written among the addressees. You see

11 there is only one copy addressed to the commander.

12 Q. Okay. Could you -- and I'm sorry, I don't have an English, but

13 could you look at that paragraph 8? It's the second paragraph. It starts

14 with odluka. Could you help us and slowly read that? It's really the

15 second half of that little paragraph I'm interested in, but could you read

16 that entire paragraph starting with odluka slowly so that we can see what

17 it says?

18 And I'm sorry, out loud because that's the only way that we are

19 going to understand it, for those of us that don't understand Serbian.

20 A. "On the western part of the area of responsibility of the Drina

21 Corps" --

22 Q. I'm sorry, I don't need that paragraph. It's just the second one,

23 beginning --

24 A. Odluka.

25 Q. -- odluka, yes. And remember go slow because they are translating

Page 15199

1 you.

2 A. All right. "Decision. With the forces in the western part of the

3 area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, defend decisively the defence

4 lines reached or attained. Whereas the interspace of Zepa and Srebrenica

5 should be controlled by sending strong reconnaissance groups, one platoon

6 strong, or a company strong, with the purpose of locating and neutralising

7 enemy reconnaissance groups and their combat support, and thus prevent

8 communication between enclaves. Continue preparations for closing the

9 enclaves completely and use the available forces of the MUP in the area of

10 responsibility of the Drina Corps to control the territory behind the

11 lines in depth. Continue to carry out the Spreca 95 operation in keeping

12 with the decision of the Main Staff of the VRS. Deputy commander, Colonel

13 Radislav Krstic."

14 Q. Thank you, Colonel. What I want to ask you about is that section

15 that says, "Continue the preparations for closing the enclaves

16 completely." This statement, "Continue the preparations for closing the

17 enclaves," suggests -- appears to suggest -- and tell me if I'm wrong --

18 that the receiver of this information would know what they were -- what

19 they meant by that.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can ask it in a different way to--

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But let's hear the objection.

23 MR. JOSSE: It's a leading question.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree.

25 MR. JOSSE: And it's a question that really should have been asked

Page 15200

1 in a different way.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse, and please rephrase your

3 question.


5 Q. Does this document appear to you, this statement appear to you, to

6 suggest prior knowledge of the person that receives it?

7 MR. JOSSE: Same objection. Why doesn't my learned friend ask

8 what does it suggest to you?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the same. I think you have read out the

10 corresponding part of the paragraph. Just ask him what he understands by

11 it. What does he understand by "continue the preparations"? What does he

12 understand by that?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that is not a question I wanted to

14 ask. That will get a whole new answer that I'm not interested in but I--

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Then let's move on to the next question, if you

16 don't want to ask that question.


18 Q. You were at the Main Staff. Do you know what this statement

19 means?

20 A. Which statement?

21 Q. The statement that "continue preparations for the separation of

22 the enclaves."

23 A. Well, that means that the enclaves were not separated and there

24 was normal communication between Zepa and Srebrenica.

25 Q. Okay. In your experience in receiving these kinds of reports from

Page 15201

1 the corps -- oh, I think I'll go on, Mr. President. I apologise.

2 Let's go to a -- let's go to the Main Staff, the document from the

3 Main Staff to the Presidency for 16 May. And I'd like you to -- and that

4 is -- I'll have a number for you --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I may be wrong but that was 2892, wasn't it?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll have a number for you in a minute but it's a

7 Main Staff report to the president dated 16 May 1995, it's ERN 04261017.

8 And I may have left this off the list. I apologise. But there is a

9 reference that I just need you to read for us, if you could. It's

10 paragraph 6.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Madam Fauveau?

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not objecting in

13 advance that this document be shown to the witness but we have no idea

14 what is in it. We've never seen it. Maybe it wasn't even disclosed to

15 us. It's not on the 65 ter list. It's not on this list here. So maybe

16 the Prosecutor can continue his re-examination otherwise and then during

17 the break we can see what this is about and maybe the question can be put

18 later.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can find out -- find that out

20 immediately.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This is not a mystery document. It's just

22 one of the many reports from the Main Staff to the Presidency which

23 counsel has a full collection of. This is redirect.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's beside the point, whether it's in

25 redirect or not. The thing is that everyone is being taken by surprise as

Page 15202

1 to the contents of this document. So if we could see it on the screen,

2 give everyone the opportunity to read it and know what we are talking

3 about. This is basically the gist of it. She is not objecting as such

4 prematurely, at least, or peremptorily to the use of this document for the

5 time being but we -- even we need to know what you're talking about.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Of course, Mr. President. I'm getting there,

7 trying. If it gets put on the ELMO and read by him --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: How long is it?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Two lines.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If you could show him the part that's

12 highlighted? Could you put it on the ELMO? And I'm sorry about this

13 awkwardness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau? While the witness is reading.

15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask

16 leave of the Court to have physical opportunity to see the first and the

17 last page of this document before the witness starts to comment on it.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, are there any other documents that

20 are not listed in the list that was circulated today? The last list, in

21 other words.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think so, but I may have made another

23 mistake. I can't tell.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So what we are going to do is this -- instead of

25 having the break when I was told we should have it, that's at 5.30, we

Page 15203

1 will have it now. On your part, please try to find out if there are any

2 other such documents that are going to emerge that the Defence have not

3 been alerted to and in the meantime you will have an opportunity to examine

4 these documents. So instead of having the break at 5.30, we will have it

5 now and it will be the usual 25 minutes. Thank you.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I hope the Chamber don't regard this as a

11 very pedantic point but it's a matter of some concern to a number of

12 Defence counsel and I can say at least more than one of the accused. I

13 did mention it briefly to Mr. McCloskey and he has an explanation. Could

14 we quickly get P45 up on e-court? Because we'll need it for the point

15 that I'm going to make. While that is being done could I invite the

16 Chamber to turn to page 38 of the transcript of today?


18 MR. JOSSE: At line -- at line 8 to 9, Mr. McCloskey ended a quote

19 with a question, "Were you aware at the time, on July 13th, that General

20 Mladic or General Gvero, referring to the Muslim men and civilians as

21 inveterate criminals and villains?" The actual document, P45 --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Does not mention civilians.

23 MR. JOSSE: -- doesn't mention civilians. It also uses the words

24 "among them." Those were the two points. I hope that, as I say, the

25 Chamber doesn't regard that as too pedantic. I accept that Mr. McCloskey

Page 15204

1 has said to me that in effect it was a question he was asking the witness

2 but from our point of view it's extremely material.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a valid point you have raised. You're

4 definitely not being pedantic, Mr. Josse. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was a deliberate question. I was not trying

6 to rephrase the document. I was referring to what I believe was an

7 established fact in this case that I don't believe counsel is objecting to

8 or is fighting, I'd like to know if they are, and that was merely that

9 there were civilians in this group, so my question had to do with did they

10 have knowledge or did they -- did you know about the column and the

11 civilians. I wasn't trying to just rehash the document. That's not what

12 I was doing. I was using the document to make my point.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But let's -- your question was phrased as

14 follows: "Were you aware at the time on July 13th that General Mladic and

15 General Gvero were referring to the Muslim men and civilians as inveterate

16 criminals and villians?" If you look at the respective paragraph on P45,

17 it says: "Based on the instructions received and following defeat in the

18 Srebrenica enclave, the men from the enclave fit for military service were

19 tasked with crossing over to Tuzla and Kladanj in groups and carrying

20 weapons. Amongst them" -- that is, amongst these names -- these

21 men, "are inveterate criminals and villains who will stop at nothing just

22 to avoid being captured and reach Muslim-controlled territories."

23 This is what the paragraph says.

24 The objection is that when you read this paragraph from P45,

25 although it may be referring also to civilians being amongst the group

Page 15205

1 that were crossing over, allegedly crossing over to Tuzla, the attribution

2 of inveterate criminals and villains, this is Mr. Josse's suggestion, is

3 not referring to them but it's referring to those who are not civilians.

4 This is as I understood you.

5 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour. I suppose what I was saying is

6 the question mischaracterised the evidence, i.e. the document.

7 Mr. McCloskey says that it was in the form of a question, well, in which

8 case, it could arguably be said to be a leading question. That doesn't

9 really matter. It's more a point of information that we were very anxious

10 was put on the record. I'm not asking my learned friend to go back and

11 put it right with the witness. We were simply very anxious, I repeat, to

12 put it on the record.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have taken both points and we can leave

14 it at that. According to you, when you have a description of men from the

15 enclave fit for military service, it includes civilians as well, and

16 therefore the inveterate criminals and villains could be amongst them too.

17 This is what you are saying.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Precisely correct, Your Honour, as an established

19 fact in the case, not mischaracterising any evidence.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. That's -- what he is alleging to be

21 mischaracterising is not the Colonel's evidence but the document. This is

22 how I understand it.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand it and I'm saying I wasn't trying to

24 mess with the document. I was just using it to make my point.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But I think we have -- it's good on your part

Page 15206

1 to have raised it because we will know what your position is at least and

2 for you to have clarified the reason why you put or you phrased the

3 question you way you did. All right.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you both. Can we bring the witness in?

7 Can I get you together, try to finish with this witness today,

8 please? Mr. McCloskey, how much more do you have?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sensing I'm -- I should be finishing up, but

10 this door has been opened so wide on this issue that it's hard for me to

11 step away from it, and I do have one more topic I'm going to get into, but

12 I'm not going to get into any documents in July.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's see what happens. Is the other

14 witness here?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.


17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.


20 Q. Yes, Colonel, thank you, we've got the document up on the screen.

21 And basically what I was trying to do, this is the Main Staff document

22 going to the president, and we had already seen the corps document coming

23 to the Main Staff, and could you just read out this section B including

24 this part that's highlighted, just in my -- just to see if there is any

25 connection between the part that was in the document from the corps and

Page 15207

1 this part that's been put in the Main Staff document to the Presidency?

2 So if could you start with section B, there, stanje u korpusu?

3 A. Yes. "Situation in the corps. All corps units are under full

4 combat readiness. They are successfully holding the lines reached.

5 Preparations continue to stabilise the defence around the enclaves of

6 Srebrenica and Zepa. In the course of the day, the 1st Vlasenica infantry

7 brigade carried out reconnoitring and scoured the terrain on the

8 Libina-Glogic axis. It was noticed that an enemy group had stayed in the

9 aforementioned sector. During the course of the day tomorrow, the 1st

10 Vlasenica Infantry Brigade will continue scouring the ground. C, losses:

11 There were no losses." This was it.

12 Q. Thank you. And from what you remember of the communication from

13 the corps on this subject of Srebrenica, does this brief reference to

14 Srebrenica and enclaves appear to be -- to you to be taken from the Drina

15 Corps report which would of course indicate that somebody from the Main

16 Staff would have read that report? Or can you tell?

17 A. Everything was taken -- look here. I drafted very many of these

18 reports. I often drafted them. And whatever was included for any of the

19 corps was actually taken from that particular corps report.

20 Q. All right. I want to show you a map to see if you have any

21 familiarity with it, to see if you remember the name of this potential

22 operation that may or may not have been known to some people. And it's

23 number 2885. I don't intend to spend a lot of time with it but the main

24 thing is the -- and if I could get some help from the usher just to show

25 you this map, show the parts of it, Your Honour, Mr. President, are on the

Page 15208

1 computer, but the computer isn't much good for these sorts of things.

2 Can you take a -- just take a look at this original map, Colonel?

3 And I can just help, I think, the Court and the people to understand just

4 some of the basics that it said but in the right-hand corner it says

5 military secret, strictly confidential, Susica and then on the other side

6 it says approved by commander General Ratko Mladic. And in the middle it

7 says, battle plan of the Drina Corps command. And then Susica, I believe,

8 something to that effect.

9 But there aren't any signatures or stamps or anything on this

10 document or dates, are there, Colonel?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?

12 MR. JOSSE: Could we ask how this arises from cross-examination,

13 please?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've been asking the witness -- this -- well, this

16 explanation should probably not be done in front of the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can you ask the witness, please --

18 Witness, can you remove your headphones, please?

19 Let's hear the explanation. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've been asking the witness, Your Honour, about

21 the May 15th battle plan of General Krstic's directed towards the enclave

22 that we went over briefly, and he did not have any information or

23 knowledge about it. I'm continuing to see if he will remember this

24 operation. This map, the only thing I have with operation Susica on it is

25 this map, and this map, it's in the position of the Prosecution is very

Page 15209

1 similar to the attack plan that is outlined by General Krstic in the May

2 15th document that I asked the witness about.

3 So this is further attempt to see if he remembers the name of this

4 operation and he can also tell us, we have General Mladic's name on this

5 thing, and of course he's a member of the Main Staff, and the issues here

6 is does the Main Staff know about the operations. That's why I'm asking

7 him is it signed? It's not signed which will be an indication that

8 perhaps General Mladic doesn't -- or didn't have this in his hands. But

9 that's what this is all about. It's the topic of does the Main Staff know

10 about these operations, does he remember anything, can he remember

11 anything?

12 And I can tell you, he remembered something about operation

13 Spreca, which is -- was giving me some hope. I'm not just using him as a

14 back-stop although I clearly am using him to respond to what the Defence

15 said, even though his memory doesn't seem to be so good. But I've got one

16 more area after this and I'll be wrapping it up.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?

18 MR. JOSSE: We maintain our objection. Your Honours I think have

19 ruled in relation to my objection to this amounts to cross-examination,

20 but in reality, what my learned friend says shows that really it is

21 cross-examination rather than re-examination. But on the separate ground,

22 it really is a separate ground, we say this is simply a step too far and

23 it doesn't arise from anything either my learned friend Madam Fauveau

24 asked or we asked on behalf of General Gvero.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 15210

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can I make one last point, Mr. President?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: In this adversarial system, when the Defence

4 specifically and deliberately goes into an area where the witness

5 says, "The Main Staff has no knowledge of anything about this operation,"

6 something I stayed away from, they cannot complain that I go into this

7 with documents and material to refresh his recollection. This is the

8 nature -- you must ask questions at your peril. It's the nature of the

9 business. He's opened the door. We are going in it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?

11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think that the

12 witness said that. On chief, as well as on cross, the witness said that

13 the knowledge and information that they had was based on the reports,

14 which doesn't mean that he didn't know anything about the operations.

15 This is the first thing I would like to point out and the most important

16 thing I'm pointing out.

17 Second of all, you are not familiar with the witness's statement

18 but the Prosecutor was familiar with this statement because on the 11th of

19 July, this was mentioned during the interview and I believe that this is

20 another field that the Prosecutor will go into.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let me confer with my colleagues.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It is true that to an extent this question flows

24 from previous questions or a line of questions that you've been adopting

25 or pursuing, Mr. McCloskey, but our position, or the position that we take

Page 15211

1 is that we think that we have heard enough on this and we would like you

2 to move to your next point or issue.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Would it -- can I ask

4 him if he's heard of the operation? I know the map is out. That's clear.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move. If you want to ask that question, do

6 ask it. I think you can already anticipate what the answer is.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think you're probably right.

8 Q. Colonel, operation Susica, have you heard of that? Pardon my

9 pronunciation.

10 A. There is no mispronunciation. I never heard about it but you see

11 that it has never been either approved or carried out because Krivaja,

12 there would be no Krivaja if this one had been carried out.

13 Q. So you know about Krivaja; is that right?

14 A. Well, now that -- in May, in July 2005.

15 Q. All right. Well, we'll get that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Madam Fauveau?

17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness answered

18 yesterday that he did know about Krivaja and he even indicated when he

19 found out about it.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Your next question.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to comments. There is no reason to

22 comment. And the witness --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: She was suggesting that your question was redundant

24 or repetitive. Let's move to the next -- let's finish with this witness,

25 please.

Page 15212

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

2 Q. Were you aware, in the -- on or about the 4th of June 1995, of a

3 Drina Corps attack on the UN operation -- the UN observation post at the

4 edge of the Srebrenica enclave at Zeleni Jadar, where the UN post was

5 taken down and UN soldiers were taken prisoner?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can I ask you to see document 2886.

8 And this will be the last document, Mr. President, Witness,

9 everyone. I think.

10 And this is a -- and I'll give you the -- this original, but let

11 me -- it's an April -- excuse me, a 4 June 1995 Drina Corps report to the

12 Main Staff and it's paragraph 3 that I'm interested in. If you could just

13 take a moment to read the document. And it's on e-court, I believe,

14 and --

15 A. A detailed report was submitted, in brackets, name by name,

16 brackets closed, about the liberated members of the UN who had been

17 captured in our area of responsibility, through the area of responsibility

18 of the corps there was no passage of the convoy or teams of humanitarian

19 aid.

20 Q. So first of all, do you have any recollection of UN soldiers being

21 taken prisoner in the Drina Corps zone of responsibility?

22 A. No. To be quite frank, I really don't remember that incident. I

23 don't remember that incident.

24 Q. Thank you, Colonel. I have no further questions. Thank you for

25 your patience.

Page 15213

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Mr. Krgovic?

2 MR. KRGOVIC: I don't have any further cross-examination.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, with your leave,

5 of course, I have some and I promise to be relatively quick. First of all

6 I would like to show the witness, in fact we can keep this document for a

7 while.

8 Further cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

9 Q. Sir, you just said that you don't remember that incident wherein

10 members of the United Nations force were captured and arrested. Do you

11 remember there was a bombing, there were NATO air strikes, in May 1995?

12 A. Well, I don't know when exactly, May, June. I know that there

13 were air strikes, but I cannot pinpoint them in time.

14 Q. Do you remember that during the air strikes, certain members of

15 the UN force were taken prisoner, not only in the area of responsibility

16 of the Drina Corps?

17 A. I remember something about the area of responsibility of the

18 Sarajevo Romanija Corps but I can't remember about the Drina Corps.

19 Q. This recollection that you have that would be in this period, May,

20 June, 1995?

21 A. Well, it's a long time ago.

22 Q. All right. Can we show the witness P204? I should like very

23 simply a brief explanation. Would you please look which units are

24 referred to here as addressees? Is it true that this was not addressed to

25 the Main Staff?

Page 15214

1 A. Yes. It says exactly the commands of certain units and no Main

2 Staff is mentioned.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. I was cut off in going to that area.

5 The evidence that I was going to was connecting this document to the Main

6 Staff, and now she is reopening that issue that I was cut off from going

7 to. The map was the connection.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment. Do you wish to comment on that,

9 Ms. Fauveau? Or you are withdrawing the question?

10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No. Your Honour, I have no other

11 questions on this document. I only wanted to clear up that this witness

12 could not have been aware of this document. I have nothing else to ask

13 him about it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Our position is as it was before, we've heard enough

17 on this. We don't want to hear any more. We have the document, and we

18 proceed from there.

19 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we show the Witness P45?

21 Q. Sir, you said that you thought this document had been written by

22 General Miletic.

23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we show the last page to the

24 witness? That's the page before this one, with the signature, here.

25 There it is.

Page 15215

1 Q. Is it true that this document does not bear the initials of the

2 person who drafted this?

3 A. No, it does not, and I didn't say definitively that it was

4 Miletic. It's just that there was nobody else in the operations organ, so

5 he was the only one who could have drafted it.

6 Q. But you personally, or maybe Colonel Djurdjevic, you sometimes

7 worked in operations, didn't you?

8 A. We didn't work. We helped out. And I don't believe it was

9 Djurdjevic. He had been in the entourage of comrade Tito for 13 years.

10 Q. You said yesterday that it was not only the practice, it was the

11 rule, that the operations organ followed that the initials of the person

12 who participated in the drafting of the document be put on the document.

13 Did you say that?

14 A. Yes. I remember. Of course, it was the rule and I wonder why

15 there are no initials here.

16 Q. Is it possible that this document was written elsewhere, in

17 another sector of the Main Staff, not the operations --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's asking for speculation, I

20 believe. This, is it possible? I would agree anything is possible.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next question, Madam Fauveau, please.

22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Is it true that the name General Miletic does not appear as a

24 signatory of this document because General Miletic did not have the powers

25 or authority to sign such a document?

Page 15216

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. I think this subject is getting very

3 repetitive and he's given his answer several times.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Our decision is to move to your next

5 question. I think this has been more than sufficiently covered already.

6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

7 P5. It's a directive. We need page 15 in B/C/S and 10/11 in English.

8 Q. Sir, would you bear with me for a while longer? It's going to be

9 my last question. Could you please look at the paragraph concerning the

10 Drina Corps? I'd like to know, is it true that this paragraph refers to

11 different operations, such as Zvijezda, Spreca, Jadar and Prozor, but it

12 does not mention Krivaja operation at all?

13 A. That's correct. None of these operations were actually effected.

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

15 Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, Mr. President, Ms. Fauveau has suggested --

20 it's perhaps best that the witness take his ear phones off just briefly.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The witness has taken the headphones off.

22 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Ms. Fauveau has suggested in her questions that UN

24 prisoners could have been taken during the air strikes as they were in

25 other parts of the Drina Corps. I have a very specific document that goes

Page 15217

1 directly to this case that will help answer the question of which UN

2 people we are talking about and it's not UN hostages from the air

3 strikes. Now, I understand this witness may not -- it may not refresh his

4 recollection. That's why I didn't ask him in the first place. But now

5 that on the record there is a suggestion that these UN hostages may have

6 been taken from the air strikes, I have a document that will help this

7 Court figure it out.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau?

9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't suggest

10 anything. I asked the question and the witness said that he didn't know

11 any more about the UN force members who were arrested in the area of the

12 Drina Corps after the air strikes apart from this particular incident. I

13 don't see why this is a problem to the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one last thing, Mr. President, the only

16 reason I do is that we may come around to this area again but it may be

17 weeks, it may be months, and while we are here and there is a document

18 that is a historic document, and it's as a result of her question.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness has already indicated his complete

21 ignorance as to the event alleged or mentioned by Ms. Fauveau. So the

22 position is we don't see how you can prove the opposite by introducing

23 this document in the record because if he doesn't know, he doesn't know.

24 So that's not to exclude the importance that this document may have later

25 on, if during the testimony of someone else the incident is referred to,

Page 15218

1 in which case then of course you will come up with that document and it

2 will be more relevant to what that particular witness would be

3 testifying. This one doesn't know anything in any case.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And I know all good

5 things must come to an end but I can offer the document from the bar table

6 for whatever the -- Your Honours think it may be worth, though I imagine

7 from your last answer that you don't -- you would like documents to go

8 through witnesses, but as you know, it is a practice that sometimes is

9 done and I think it would help the Court in getting -- as I say, we get to

10 these issues and then we go away from them.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's difficult to say

13 whatever because I don't know which document we are talking about but in

14 any case, I don't understand why so many problems arise in introducing it

15 through another witness because we are going to hear from other UN

16 witnesses, and they might be able to confirm what the Prosecutor is

17 suggesting.


19 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's on the list that she got today, just for your

20 information.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We stand by our decision. We don't need it

23 now. Later on maybe but not at the moment.

24 Colonel, we have come to the end of a long journey, that being

25 your testimony. We have no further questions for you, which means you can

Page 15219

1 relax now and go back home. Our staff will assist you. On behalf of the

2 Tribunal, but particularly on behalf of my colleagues, Judge Kwon, Judge

3 Prost and Judge Stole, I wish to thank you for having come over to give

4 evidence in this case. And we all wish you a safe journey back home.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

8 MR. JOSSE: Could I pre-empt the next item which is documents? I

9 would invite the Chamber to postpone submissions on these documents until

10 at least tomorrow. We would like to have a good look at the list and

11 consider our position in relation to those documents that have been used

12 in the course of this re-examination. If the Court would rather it was a

13 day later this week, then that would also be fine, but we will be ready to

14 address the issue tomorrow afternoon.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey? Thank you, Mr. Josse.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: As we put things off sometimes we forget about

17 them and everyone remembers this. I just -- the position of the

18 Prosecution is that documents that I presented to this witness, whether or

19 not he knew them or didn't know them, I would like to be in evidence,

20 because I will very likely be arguing that his credibility regarding his

21 knowledge of this operation should be questioned by the Tribunal and that

22 in order for you to understand his answer of "I don't remember this," it's

23 important for you to see what he's not remembering.

24 And these documents will come into evidence, or some of them

25 already are, in other ways, so I'm not trying to bring in a bunch of

Page 15220

1 documents through this witness. This is a practice the Defence have been

2 doing. They have been putting tonnes of documents and asking people about

3 them that they don't flow. If you remember, the Zepa Muslim documents.

4 There were numerous documents. Now, the map, I don't think we ever got to

5 the map so the map is obviously not included in that, in that acceptance,

6 even though I think he answered something on that point but I don't think

7 the map would fit into my argument, but that is my basic view point and I

8 think it fits the practice of the -- of what we have done before and

9 perhaps a little bit of time to look into that practice might be of some

10 help.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse?

12 MR. JOSSE: That's fine. And I mean it. I'm very helpful. All

13 I'm asking is to address the issue at 2.15 tomorrow so I can consider what

14 my learned friend has just said and decide on whether we have any

15 submissions. 2.15 tomorrow afternoon would be absolutely fine so far as

16 the Gvero Defence is concerned.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And as far as the other Defence teams are

18 concerned? All right.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that we can grant that.

21 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will discuss the documents stage tomorrow. In

23 the meantime, Mr. McCloskey, could you be very specific with the Defence

24 teams, indicating which documents you intend to tender with a complete

25 list of the documents you intend to tender with this witness? I tried to

Page 15221

1 mark the ones that used on redirect as you went along but then there were

2 others that you used -- there were others that you used during the direct.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We'll do that. I didn't get

4 into the July documents because he said that's when the stream of

5 documents started so I didn't -- that's why those weren't used. We will

6 figure that out and get them to the Defence.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So then documents is postponed until

8 tomorrow at 2.15. We will get the next witness and I need to get --

9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, if I may, I just have -- sorry, I

10 just have a preliminary issue with respect to the witness that's -- the

11 next witness.


13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Briefly I just wanted to ask for a caution with

14 respect to this witness and also the witness did raise some

15 unparticularised concerns about his safety which I don't think amounted to

16 sufficient cause to make the request for protective measures, but I wanted

17 to bring that to your attention. There are no protective measures with

18 respect to this witness as well.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir. And welcome to this

22 Tribunal.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You're about to start giving evidence. Before you

25 do so, I would kindly ask you to make a solemn declaration required by our

Page 15222

1 rules that in the course of your testimony you'll be speaking the truth.

2 Please proceed. Read it out aloud and that will be your solemn commitment

3 with us.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15223

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back to private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15224











11 Page 15224 redacted. Private session















Page 15225

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You will now, if you look at your monitor, if the

17 camera focuses on you, you will see how you are going to appear to the

18 outside world, a bunch of cubes, of colourful cubes.

19 I think we can now start. Mr. Vanderpuye.

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. And good

21 evening to you, Your Honours, counsel.

22 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

23 Q. And good evening to you, sir. I thought I would just start by

24 first asking to you try and keep your voice up during the course of your

25 testimony and also to allow a short pause between the question that I put

Page 15226

1 to you and the answer that you give so that the interpreters have an

2 opportunity to keep up and translate what you say and what I say so that

3 everyone can follow and understand. If I put to you a question that you

4 don't understand, please let me know that and I will do my best to

5 rephrase it in a way that you can understand it and answer it.

6 We only have about 15 minutes left and I know you've been waiting

7 all day so we'll get right to it.

8 If you would, for the record, please, tell us your name.

9 A. My name Milomir Savcic.

10 Q. And, sir, where were you born?

11 A. I was born in Sokolac, Republika Srpska, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. And what is your present age?

13 A. 48.

14 Q. And can you tell us what your educational background is?

15 A. I completed the ground forces military academy in Belgrade and the

16 General Staff school.

17 Q. Are you presently employed?

18 A. I am currently employed in a private company.

19 Q. Have you received any prior military training other than the

20 training that you received in school?

21 A. After my regular schooling, I completed several professional

22 courses in the Yugoslav People's Army.

23 Q. And were you a professional military officer throughout your

24 career?

25 A. I was.

Page 15227

1 Q. And were you at some point mobilised into the VRS?

2 A. I wouldn't say that mobilised is a good term. That would be my

3 feeling about this.

4 Q. All right. Did you perform duties for the VRS?

5 A. Yes, I did. From the beginning to the end of the war, I was the

6 commander of the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment in the Main Staff of

7 the army of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. And when did you begin your engagement -- if you can remember,

9 when did you begin your engagement with that particular regiment?

10 A. In early June 1992, I believe. I believe it was either on the 5th

11 or on the 6th of June or thereabouts.

12 Q. And at that time, where was the Protection Regiment headquartered

13 or stationed?

14 A. The regiment command was at the command post in the Crna Rijeka

15 sector, the same place where the command post of the Main Staff of the

16 army of Republika Srpska was.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye, if you could kindly finish at five

18 to 7.00, please, instead of 7.00.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Certainly.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


22 Q. Can you tell us what your duties and responsibilities were at that

23 time, at the beginning of your engagement?

24 A. You're referring to my service in the Republika Srpska army?

25 Q. Yes, the beginning of your engagement with the 65th Protection

Page 15228

1 Regiment.

2 A. Well, when I was assigned to the unit -- let me just correct one

3 thing. I was first appointed as the Chief of Staff of the Protection

4 Regiment, but since there was no commander, I was simultaneously

5 performing the tasks of the regiment commander and this lasted until the

6 second half of September of 1992. That's when an order was issued

7 appointing me as commander of the regiment. Throughout the war, my main

8 duty was to use the rules, regulations, and to follow the orders of my

9 superior command and all that in the performance of the command over the

10 Protection Regiment. Those were my duties.

11 Q. At the beginning of your engagement, what rank did you hold?

12 A. In 1992, I was Captain First Class.

13 Q. And at the time of your promotion to commander of the 65th

14 Protection Regiment in September 1992, did you maintain the same rank or

15 did it change?

16 A. I was first promoted to the rank of major, and only then was I

17 appointed the regiment commander.

18 Q. And did you maintain that rank throughout your engagement with the

19 65th Protection Regiment or did it -- or did you receive further

20 promotions along the way?

21 A. I was promoted two more times between 1992 and 1995. Those were

22 extraordinary promotions. In 1995, I was promoted to the rank of a

23 colonel. I would like to say that all these three promotions followed

24 incidents in which I was wounded and some combat operations that I had

25 taken part in.

Page 15229

1 Q. Okay. Could you tell us, in brief terms, what the function of the

2 65th Protection Regiment was in 1995? What was its purpose?

3 A. A Protection Regiment was an atypical unit of the army of

4 Republika Srpska by establishment. Its main task was to provide security

5 for the command post of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, to

6 perform certain other tasks which provided for the normal work of the

7 command of the Main Staff at their main command post in the rear, also to

8 provide security for high officers, and to perform other tasks pursuant to

9 the orders issued by the superior command. I repeat, our main task was to

10 provide security of the command post of the Main Staff and to put in place

11 the conditions for the normal and safe work of the organs of the command

12 of the Main Staff.

13 Q. Was one of the functions of the Protection Regiment also to

14 perform military police duties?

15 A. Military police duties? Well, the military police performs some

16 of these tasks, i.e. it is predominantly their task to provide physical

17 security of the command post and military officers, also fighting sabotage

18 enemy units. Those would be the main tasks of the military police.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. I think this is as good a point as any to

20 stop, if that's all right with the Court.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Witness, we will continue with your

22 testimony tomorrow afternoon. It's important that between now and then,

23 until you finish your testimony, you do not discuss with anyone or allow

24 anyone to approach you to discuss the subject matter of your testimony.

25 Is that clear enough?

Page 15230

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Have a good evening, everyone.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.54 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

5 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.