Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15881

1 Thursday, 27 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. And good afternoon

6 to you all. Could we call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is the case

8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are here. Prosecution

10 is Mr. McCloskey and Ms. Janisiewicz. I just wanted to start with that,

11 not to make mistakes. Oh, she's not here.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: She is not here. Okay. So you are all alone today.

14 Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. And from the Defence teams I only notice the

15 absence of Mr. Ostojic. That's it.

16 Can we bring in the witness, please? And we go into closed

17 session now.

18 [Closed session]

19 (redacted)

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Page 15882











11 Pages 15882-15952 redacted. Closed session















Page 15953

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13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to address the Chamber first,

15 Mr. Haynes?

16 MR. HAYNES: I will. The lady with the Polish name who has been

17 very accurate about the length of Mr. McCloskey's examination-in-chief so

18 far estimated to me that he will probably take one more session, and I

19 think it would be nice if Mr. McCloskey would give us a fairly -- as good

20 an estimate as he can as to that. At the end of the examination-in-chief,

21 I think it would be appropriate to take a break. I think I will go first.

22 And it's likely that we'll have to make certain physical arrangements

23 within the courtroom before I can begin asking the witness any questions.

24 I don't want to make any secret of it. We've got some big maps and

25 various other media to show to him which will need to be affixed to boards

Page 15954

1 and things before he can start. (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 So that's really all I want to contribute. It may well be that

6 between ourselves we change that and somebody whose estimate for

7 cross-examination of this witness is much shorter would prefer to begin

8 and finish tomorrow.


10 MR. HAYNES: But we will know that when we know how long

11 Mr. McCloskey is going to be and we'll take it from there.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Let's start with you,

13 Mr. McCloskey. How much more time you think you require for -- to finish

14 the examination-in-chief?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, to give Ms. Janisiewicz a name, that may be

16 about right. These some 25 intercepts, as you can tell, it's sometimes

17 give to gauge how long a witness is going to speak, but they are going to

18 be fairly pointed. So I don't think we are going to want or allow

19 narratives, but again that's hard to tell.

20 I also, in looking at my outline, I want him to identify the

21 logbooks that he took from Mali Zvornik so that's clear, describe a little

22 bit about what they are, but I don't have an intention for him to go

23 through them at length.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So would one session be enough for you tomorrow or

25 do you think you need more?

Page 15955

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I may be lucky to do it in one session but it

2 might be one and a part of a session.


4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Though it's hard to tell.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Granted that the witness hasn't finished the

6 examination-in-chief, Mr. Zivanovic, as the matters stand now, how long do

7 you think -- you had asked for five years?

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And you require five hours?


11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek, you had asked for three hours, almost four

12 hours, 3 hours 50 minutes. I don't know what made you deduct those ten

13 minutes to be honest with you, but do you still require the same time?

14 MR. MEEK: No, Your Honour, actually I'll probably require more

15 time than what I put down.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon?

17 MR. BOURGON: Eight hours, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You still require eight hours, yeah, okay.

19 Mr. Stojanovic? You asked for two hours.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will probably

21 need less time. After having seen the documents, maybe up to an hour and

22 a half.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Fauveau?

24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think I might need

25 more time, three hours and a half, I think.

Page 15956

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse or Mr. Krgovic, you asked for 40 minutes.

2 MR. JOSSE: Absolute maximum.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So would you be prepared to take over tomorrow

4 after ...

5 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely pointless, Your Honour. First of all,

6 Mr. Krgovic is in fact going to cross-examine the witness, but there is

7 every prospect that we will have no questions. It would be absolutely

8 pointless us going first frankly.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. And you asked for 12 hours,

10 Mr. Haynes?

11 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I think I'll probably be about as long as

12 Mr. McCloskey with this witness.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. So we'll take that up tomorrow.

14 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, in fact the reason I dealt with this is I

15 wanted to mention one other thing, and this is really in fairness to

16 Mr. Thayer. He, I know, wants to raise an issue to do with General Smith

17 and these various pleadings that the Chamber has in relation to whether

18 he's going to be an expert witness.

19 Mr. Thayer wrote to Ms. Fauveau and myself a week ago, asked if he

20 could raise it on Monday, I explained that I wouldn't be here, and he very

21 kindly agreed to postpone the matter. In fairness to him, I'm now raising

22 the matter. I suspect he would like a few minutes tomorrow to canvass

23 various matters prior to the break. Ms. Fauveau and I are both prepared

24 to respond. I would invite the Chamber, if it's agreeable to hear any

25 submissions on the subject to limit it to very few minutes.

Page 15957

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We were trying to fill in all the time

2 actually. Mr. McCloskey? Thank you, Mr. Josse. Will Mr. Thayer be

3 available tomorrow?


5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I think we have to sleep on all

6 this, and -- yes, Mr. Haynes?

7 MR. HAYNES: That's all been very helpful. There are of course

8 one or two other outstanding legal issues that you've yet to come back to

9 us on or you may require further input on. To borrow Mr. Josse's phrase,

10 if we did go very far into a second session, I would frankly regard

11 starting the cross-examination before weeks' break myself as pretty

12 pointless because I don't think I could even get through any meaningful

13 topic at all within an hour or so.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I guessed that's what you meant in the

15 first place. So ...

16 MR. HAYNES: I was just trying to see how the day was shaping up.

17 If there were two hours left I would get on and start.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not possible for you to identify maybe some

19 areas --

20 MR. HAYNES: I shall look at them tonight, perhaps.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Introductory ones that you could perhaps dispose of.

22 MR. HAYNES: Of course.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I leave it up to you, Mr. Haynes and then we discuss

24 again tomorrow. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't have any objection to that. Perhaps

Page 15958

1 having a week to look at it, the estimates may be below 31 hours.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not that confident. So we stand adjourned to

3 tomorrow morning at 9.00.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of

6 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.