1 Friday, 18 January 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, good morning to you.
6 Could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 So accused Beara is not here. I understand he's not feeling
11 well. I just want to make sure, Mr. Ostojic, that the waiver is on its
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 Yes, Mr. Beara is not feeling well, and the waiver is on the way
15 or should be here this morning.
16 I do have one other request for the Chamber, if I may, through
17 Mr. Beara. He's been complaining, Your Honour, the last two weeks that
18 it's very cold in the cell where they keep him between the sessions, and
19 he's actually even worn sweaters and caps, and we did defer that to the
20 Security Unit and their management team, and they were kind enough to
21 direct our concerns to the general management services. But it's very
22 cold in that cell, and he's actually, for the last four or five days,
23 increasingly gotten sick because of that.
24 So if there's anything the Chamber can do to assist us, we would
25 be grateful.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, if you could block or copy and
2 paste this part of the transcript and have it communicated to
3 Mr. Holthuis, the Registrar, for his investigation and action. Thank you.
4 I'm glad Mr. Beara didn't get the cold from me.
5 The other accused are here. The Defence teams, I notice only the
6 absence of Mr. Meek. The Prosecution team is as it was before,
7 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Mitchell. The four Defence experts are present.
8 Mr. McCloskey, since we will be starting with the first
9 cross-examination today, has the representative of the US government been
10 made aware of that?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning.
12 Yes, Mr. President, she was planning on being here right after the
13 first break, though I said that may be a little optimistic, but that is
14 when she will be here.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 Okay, there are no further preliminaries, I take it.
17 Mr. Ostojic, take my word, we'll act on your complaint and we'll
18 see what can be done.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 Madam Usher, could you bring in the witness, please.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 WITNESS: RICHARD BUTLER [Resumed]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: A very good morning to you, Mr. Butler, and welcome
1 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey will be concluding his
3 examination-in-chief this morning, and then we'll start with the first of
4 the cross-examinations.
5 Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Butler.
9 A. Good morning, sir.
10 Q. I want to take us now back in the chronology to around 13 July and
11 talk a bit about Zvornik. And in your narratives over the years, you've
12 cited many documents and logs and reports from the Zvornik Brigade. Can
13 you tell us, just in general terms, when you were going through the
14 material retrieved from that search of the Zvornik Brigade that you talked
15 about, generally what were you on the lookout for, what sorts of
16 information and documents were you on the lookout for?
17 A. Again, gravitating back to the purposes behind my analysis of this
18 in the first instance, and having an idea of what the crime base was as a
19 result of the investigation, you know, the first goal that we were doing
20 in examining the military documents was to first gain a fundamental
21 understanding of the organisation of the Zvornik Brigade, where it was on
22 the ground, try and create a day-by-day chronology of what each of the
23 units were doing, and to determine what lengths, if any, there were on the
24 basis of the documents that would link units of the Zvornik Brigade to the
25 actual known crime bases at the time. Where such linkage could be
1 established, the next part was to try and determine the individuals who
2 were in charge of those formations, either commanders or deputy
3 commanders, as a first point for the investigators to then go back out to
4 these individuals and try and determine issues with respect to
5 investigating their potential criminal liability for those acts.
6 So, again, it keeps in part with the two-track origins of my
7 narrative, that -- that same type of research.
8 Q. Okay. Let's go to 65 ter 904, and it should be -- we can start
9 with page 1 just so everyone can see where we are.
10 A. Binder 6, sir?
11 Q. Yes, 6, and it should be tab 1. This is a vehicle log for an Opel
12 Accord, and it's for July. And if we could go to page 2 both in the
13 English and the B/C/S, and this is a document you've cited before in your
14 narrative. Can you tell us why?
15 A. Yes, sir. In reviewing the logs of the vehicles that were part of
16 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, this particular vehicle stood out because of
17 the locations that had been identified that the vehicle travelled to,
18 keeping in mind the fuel was a rationed item and that mileage was
19 generally accounted for. You know, when you look at the destinations of
20 this vehicle and how they correspond to, you know, some of the known crime
21 scenes, this particular document, in fact, stands out, particularly its
22 travel on the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th, even the 17th as far as, so --
23 so --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we just blow that up on the 13th so everyone
25 gets a good view of it in both languages, of course.
1 Q. Okay. Staying with our chronology, the 13th.
2 A. Yes, sir. If you look at the 13th, for instance, it
3 notes: "Standard, IKM, Zvornik local," continuing on, Orahovac on a
4 number of cases and down to Bratunac and then back to Zvornik. This
5 corresponds, particularly the Orahovac notations, to a known crime scene,
6 which would raise the question investigatively why this vehicle is going
7 to that location at that time.
8 Q. All right. Did you review the IKM log?
9 A. Yes, sir, I did.
10 Q. And, just briefly, did that fit in in your analysis in any way?
11 A. Well, yes, sir. As we subsequently established from
12 cross-indexing the names of these individuals to the military rosters of
13 the Zvornik Brigade and established that these individuals are military
14 police officers and, further, that this vehicle is normally associated
15 with the use of the security branch of the brigade, and then we have, in
16 the IKM log of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, a notation that Drago
17 Nikolic, the chief of security of the brigade, was at the IKM on 13 July,
18 where he had duty at the forward command post.
19 So you can see -- and how when we started putting the connection
20 together with respect to the documents we're showing this, that at some
21 point in time this particular vehicle was used to go to the IKM and then
22 returned, you know, leading us to the next question, you know: Did this
23 vehicle go and pick up Drago Nikolic, particularly with the fact of the
24 notation that Drago Nikolic was extraordinarily relieved from his duties
25 at the IKM at that time.
1 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next exhibit, 65 ter 289. And
2 this -- probably show the first page of that, 289, which is "Delivery
3 Book." But if we could go to page 8 in the English and 116 in the
4 B/C/S --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
6 MR. HAYNES: Again, this isn't on my list. Is it? 289.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: This one is on the list, according to my boss.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move, and in the meantime please check
9 further, Mr. Haynes.
10 Go ahead, please, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Mr. Butler, is this a document that you've cited in your reports?
13 A. Yes, sir, I have. I've cited it in both versions of my narrative,
14 and it's a document that I had originally attributed as probably belonging
15 to a vehicle that was responsible for food deliveries. Subsequently, in
16 reviewing the document once again many years after the original review,
17 and looking at it, I now conclude that it's not for a particular vehicle,
18 but what I believe it is is it's a wider dispatch log that would have been
19 maintained at the headquarters, accounting for where vehicles are going.
20 Q. And when did you change your analysis?
21 A. I believe that would be sometime last week.
22 Q. All right. And does that change your fundamental analysis at all?
23 A. No, sir. I mean, within respect for what I use this document, I
24 use this document as an indicator that at a point in time, on the late
25 evening of 13 July, because the next notation starts the 14th, that there
1 was a police presence at Orahovac. So regardless of whether this is an
2 individual vehicle log or whether it is a dispatch book, as I now believe
3 it is, it doesn't change the context of the information that I'm gaining
4 from it, which is a police presence at Orahovac at this time.
5 Q. Well, in the English translation, where we see "Orahovac police,"
6 it says "illegible," and could you make anything out in the original,
8 A. In the original, I believe that their first number is a zero and
9 then the second number is a 1, so in my analysis of that, what I believe
10 is that, you know, there was a police presence at Orahovac as early as
11 0100 hours on 14 July 1995.
12 Q. It just says "police." What kind of police do you think it is?
13 A. Well, the inference that I make in this context is "military
15 Q. Why is that?
16 A. Because there are other documents that indicate, for example, the
17 military police roster for July of 1995. When you cross-index those
18 names -- I'm sorry.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Mr. McCloskey and everyone else. We have a
21 small problem. But let's proceed.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. Go ahead, Mr. Butler.
24 A. When you cross-index the names of military police officers and
25 where they are located on various days, there's a notation on that
1 military police roster that has been altered that reflects a number of
2 military police from the Zvornik Infantry Brigade's Police Company that
3 were at Orahovac on 14 July. So that's where I draw that conclusion.
4 Q. All right. Well, let's then go to that roster, and it should be
5 65 ter -- excuse me, 65 ter 354. It's -- the listing of the names begins
6 on page 3 in the English, and it should be the same page in the B/C/S.
7 With the ERN last 6610, page 3 of e-court is what I'm told, so we need to
8 keep flipping.
9 There's the -- thank you, I think you've got it.
10 And the B/C/S is really the document I think all of us can use, so
11 we can bump the English out of there. That's -- if we could go back to
12 the handwritten. There you go. Thank you.
13 Is this what you're talking about, Mr. Butler?
14 A. Yes, sir, it is.
15 Q. Okay. And when you say "altered," can you explain what you're
16 talking about?
17 A. Yes, sir, I can. When we were going through the documents, as
18 part of our original sorting and catalogue process, and we came across
19 this document. In an examination of the original document we could note
20 that there were clear erasure marks with respect to locations of select
21 individuals on this list from the 14th and the 15th of July, not only on
22 the names, but at the back of the roster, where there was a handwritten
23 index as to what each specific symbol meant, we could clearly see
24 handwritten erasure notations for Orahovac and Rocevic.
25 At the time that we initially had this document, we recognised
1 that Orahovac was a crime base. The investigation did not recognise at
2 the time that Rocevic was also a crime base. That was a scene that we
3 were completely unaware of, because we had no survivors at the time.
4 Knowing that the document had apparently been altered before it
5 came into our possession, the investigation then had the document sent
6 out, I believe, to Dutch forensics laboratory for an analysis of that to
7 confirm our views whether or not what we were looking at was, in fact,
9 Q. All right. And I can see on your revised narrative on this point,
10 on page 66, you've listed the names of 10 military policemen from that log
11 and noted who was changed to zero and from zero to "T," or from --
12 to "R." Do you recall what "T" meant?
13 A. "T" is the general euphemism or symbol that they will use for
14 deployed on the train. Effectively means that they are not in their
15 normal duty location, per se, but in fact have been deployed out on a
16 combat location. So when we see the phrase "T," it's a reflection of the
17 fact that they're not performing their normal duties, that they're out
18 somewhere on -- in the field, is what we would call it, in the United
19 States. And, again, these dates correspond with the dates of deployments
20 of the military police that we have from other information.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 Mr. Bourgon.
23 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
25 MR. BOURGON: I'd like to object to this line of questions by my
2 I gave him some time and I wanted to know where he was going with
3 this line of questioning. Now it is clear that what he is trying to get
4 from this witness is an analysis of the investigation that was conducted.
5 The witness uses the terms such as "we were looking for." He
6 clearly states that he was looking for evidence, and he is analysing
7 different sources of evidence, which has nothing to do with any military
8 expertise whatsoever.
9 Looking specifically at this document, which deals with the
10 roster, this is not the right witness to come and give us evidence on this
11 roster. Initially, our colleague had proposed an expert witness to come
12 and speak about this roster and manipulation of roster. We haven't heard
13 about this witness. This witness has not been called.
14 Mr. Butler is not the right witness to come and tell us that he
15 saw manipulations of a roster, that he saw presence of military police in
16 a certain location, that this has to do with a crime base. Basically,
17 Mr. Butler is doing what Mr. McCloskey said yesterday, connecting the
18 dots, and this is not the object of his testimony.
19 His testimony, he's there and supposed to help the Trial Chamber,
20 assist the Trial Chamber with some kind of technical expertise. All he's
21 doing is testifying as an investigator and establishing links between
22 different sources of evidence. We believe, Mr. President, that this is
23 completely inadequate, this is not -- improper for him to embark on such a
24 line of questioning.
25 I waited some time, I gave him some leeway, but now we look at the
1 kind of question and it's clear that it has nothing to do with military
2 expertise, nothing to do with the expertise of the witness. It is simply
3 trying to do your job in your place, Mr. President, respectfully put.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would reiterate my argument yesterday that
8 Mr. Butler, as an intelligence expert of many years, has already testified
9 that part of his job as an intelligence expert, which is part of what --
10 the reason that he was employed and asked to do the job he's done, was to
11 evaluate the credibility and authenticity of the documents that he is
12 reviewing and his ability to look into things like alterations, of course,
13 is crucial to his ability to speak of the documents and the people and the
14 ranks and the units that are on them. Frankly, if he would not have spoken
15 about that, he would have been completely open up, on cross-examination,
16 for looking at documents and analysing them without paying attention to
17 whether they were altered or not.
18 So this is, in my view, a critical part of his analysis, as an
19 intelligence officer, firstly, and as an intelligence officer that is an
20 expert in this case testifying based on his experience as an intelligence
21 officer and now analyst.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
23 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
24 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, this goes back to the dilemma we've
25 been having since the beginning of the testimony of Mr. Butler, and even
1 before, when we filed our objective -- our objections, sorry, as to what
2 type of expert is he, or is he an expert at all. We found many objections
3 in this regard, and now we listen to this testimony. This morning, my
4 objection goes much further than the fact that he talks about alterations
5 of the document.
6 An intelligence analyst or someone who works in the intelligence
7 branch, he testified to the contents -- to the nature of the job. But the
8 nature of the job of an intelligence analyst, he looks at facts in order
9 to know what is coming ahead. Now, looking at facts to determine what
10 happened in the past, as an investigator, is not the job of an analyst.
11 And, in any event, he is not here to testify as an analyst, he is not here
12 to testify to establish links between sources of evidence. He is here to
13 testify about the organisation of the Zvornik Brigade, the structure of
14 the Zvornik Brigade, and how this may have affected.
15 If he wants to say -- testify that this is right or wrong, based
16 on the organisation and the doctrine of the VRS and the way it was used at
17 the time, that's different, but now he is solely testifying as an
18 investigator. And because he is a so-called expert, we are allowing him
19 to go further than the other investigators and to make speculation and
21 For example, if you look a little further up in the transcript, he
22 uses words as, "I conclude that there were people present there," "I
23 conclude that this was altered," "I conclude ..." All these conclusions
24 are not conclusions saying this is what --
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I object at this point.
1 MR. BOURGON: ... Militarily speaking.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: This should be stopped. I can't respond to a
3 continuing argument like this. This is about the fourth time the same
4 argument's been made.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish, because you are inviting more
6 interjections. Have you finished, Mr. Bourgon?
7 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Mr. President.
8 We believe that the conclusions of this gentleman that we have
9 before us are not what he is here for. He is supposed to testify about
10 the structure and to give technical expertise to the Trial Chamber. He's
11 going way beyond that, and we believe that it is improper at this time,
12 and we ask you to stop this, Mr. President.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 There was Madame Fauveau before you, Mr. Ostojic, and I also
16 notice Mr. Haynes, if he's still interested.
17 MR. HAYNES: I was --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madame Fauveau first.
19 MR. HAYNES: I was only going to say that I think Mr. Butler
20 probably ought to leave if this is going to go on much longer.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's going to take much longer.
22 Madame Fauveau, please be brief.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree with what
24 my colleague has just said. I believe it's quite incredible,
25 unbelievable, that on Monday we all came here to listen to an expert
1 witness, but for about a week now we've been listening to the conclusions
2 of the Prosecution submitted through a so-called witness, who is not a
3 witness but a member of the Office of the Prosecution. And the witness
4 has just submitted the arguments of the Prosecution.
5 Today's the fifth day of his testimony, and we suddenly hear that
6 he's not a military expert, that he's an expert in intelligence analysis.
7 I believe that the Defence should have been notified in advance of the
8 actual nature of the testimony of this witness.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 Mr. Ostojic.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: We join, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And we join as well.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I'm not surprised.
15 So Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Butler has testified almost identically in two
17 previous trials and before the Appellate Chamber. His reports echo the
18 testimony. This is -- there's more notice on the style and content of
19 Mr. Butler's expertise and testimony than perhaps any other witness in
20 this Tribunal, and the counsel had plenty of notice to hone their attack
21 prior to Mr. Butler taking the witness stand on these points. And,
22 frankly, they tried and they lost, and he's been already testifying,
23 connecting the dots like he's done before, and providing his expertise for
24 some four days. It's too late to change course.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's close it here. Mr. Bourgon, please, as
1 briefly as possible.
2 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, my colleague has just admitted and
3 conceded that the witness is here only to connect the dots, which is
5 My colleague keeps running the same argument, which is the SALT
6 principle, same as last trial. As early as our pre-trial brief, we said
7 to the Trial Chamber we have to stop this, Mr. President. This is not the
8 same trial, and the Trial Chamber can make its own rulings based on what
9 is announced. This is not a military expert in what he is testifying to
11 Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
13 Let me confer with my colleagues.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are unanimous in our decision.
16 Judge Prost will be explaining it or state our decision.
17 JUDGE PROST: We are agreement with the position of the Defence
18 that there are certainly limitations on the areas of expertise of the
19 witness. For example, general discussion of alteration of documents is
20 not a matter which falls within his area of expertise.
21 However, at the same time, we do agree with the position of the
22 Prosecution, that if in the course of analysing documents for the purposes
23 of his testimony, the witness has formed the view, in his opinion, the
24 documents were altered, it was certainly his obligation, in fact, to
25 relate that position, that opinion, to the Trial Chamber for the Trial
1 Chamber's consideration, obviously.
2 Insofar, however, that the Defence appear to be suggesting that
3 other matters on which he has been testifying to in this particular
4 segment were not within his area of expertise, we do not agree, and in
5 particular with the question and answer to which Mr. Bourgon's original
6 objection was made, because if you take a look at the question and answer
7 on page 9, lines 14 to 25, where the witness discusses the symbol "T"
8 within the document, as well as the correspondence of that with deployment
9 dates of the military police, we are of the view that that is precisely
10 the areas that he is here to provide the Trial Chamber with assistance on.
11 And that is our position.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Prost.
13 Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I was done in that
15 area, anyway.
16 We do have that original log, if the Court would like to see it.
17 It's a very simple thing to look at, if you're at all interested.
18 And let's briefly go to 65 ter 677.
19 Q. Is -- Mr. Butler, briefly, is this a copy of the hand -- the
20 erasure report that you made reference to in your testimony and in your
22 A. Yes, sir, it is.
23 Q. Now, I'm going to skip ahead a bit to try to save some time,
24 because many of these documents you've cited in your narrative have
25 already been mentioned by other witnesses, and I don't think we need to
1 discuss them. So let me skip through many of these engineering documents
2 that are on the list.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 For the record, I would just like to note that this particular
6 document that the witness referred to is not a document that has been
7 admitted in evidence and has not been submitted nor discussed before this
8 Court at any time.
9 Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
11 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe the name of the expert has been on the
13 witness list, and we have an agreement with six of seven of Defence
14 counsel that this report would come in. We've been continuing to speak
15 with Ms. Nikolic on that point to try to save our time from bringing in
16 this person to come in and tell us that he sees erasure marks on certain
17 things. Perhaps Mr. Bourgon is not a part of that, but that is the
18 history of the document.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, let's leave it for the time being, but
20 the comments of Mr. Bourgon enters into the record.
21 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
23 Q. If we could get to an intercept now, Mr. Butler. It should be on
24 your tab 10. It's 65 ter 1164A, and that's the English. D is the B/C/S.
25 And this is from the 14th of July now, and this is at 2102 hours, and it's
1 the Palma duty officer, Major Jokic, Badem, X and Y. And we can read it.
2 We see:
3 "Hello, Badem. Let me talk to Beara."
4 And then B says:
5 "Who wants to talk to him?"
6 Who do you take this B to mean, this answer:
7 "Who wants to talk to him?"
8 A. I take this to be the switchboard operator who is -- the
9 switchboards are manned constantly, and at this point it's just a question
10 of, you know, the operator basically saying, "Okay, who wants to talk to
11 him before I go find him."
12 Q. The switchboard operator where?
13 A. At Badem, which would be the headquarters of the Bratunac Light
14 Infantry Brigade.
15 Q. All right. And then it says:
16 "The Palma duty officer wants to talk to him. Beara is needed
17 urgently, somebody needs him. The higher house urgently needs him, but he
18 has to call me."
19 Okay, then we go down and I think we can read the rest -- some of
20 the rest of it to ourselves. It's a similar discussion for a while, and
21 then at some point Badem says:
22 "Here is Beara, you have him on the line."
23 And then this J says: "Hello?"
24 X says: "Hello."
25 They go on and talk about things that are difficult -- well, I
1 won't comment on them. Then as we go down, we hear J say:
2 "Is that Beara? Jokic here."
3 Who do you think the Jokic is in this context?
4 A. This would be Dragan Jokic, the chief of engineering for the
5 Zvornik Infantry Brigade who, at this point in time, is performing duty as
6 the duty officer of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
7 Q. All right. And then Jokic goes on to say:
8 "We were together, Colonel, sir. Number 155 called you and asked
9 you to call him urgently."
10 And then BE apparently can't be heard from the " ...," and then
11 Jokic says again:
12 "Number 155. That's, I mean, the higher house. You go ahead and
13 call them, you have to, so I don't speak like this."
14 Who do you -- what do you -- is your opinion regarding what Jokic
15 means by this?
16 A. What Major Jokic --
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Excuse me.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, I'll just object. I think it calls for
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Please answer the question. If he knows, he knows.
22 I mean, the witness knows that he is not here to speculate. If he can
23 give us his opinion, he will do so.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Butler.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Number 155 is a number that is associated
2 with the operations office of the Main Staff. What, in this context, he's
3 talking about is Major Jokic wants Beara to call that number.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
5 Q. Then we can't hear Beara again, and Jokic says:
6 "Yes, hey, we have huge problems over here."
7 Then we can't hear Beara, and Jokic says:
8 "There are big problems with the people, I mean, the parcel."
9 This term "parcel," is that then a sub -- identifying the meaning
10 of that term? Has that been something you've studied as part of your
12 A. Yes, sir. The phrase "parcel," when used alternatively in the
13 intercepts or in the documents, is a euphemism for "people." Depending
14 upon the context of the actual intercept, in many of the intercepts the
15 phrase "parcel" is used in the context of prisoners. In some cases,
16 particularly in the documents, the phrase "parcel" refers to
17 just"people." So, you know, it's their euphemism of talking around that,
18 and you have to actually look at the context of each and every report or
19 intercept that it's in to try and determine, you know, what they're
20 actually talking about with that euphemism.
21 Q. Okay.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Mr. President, the witness, based on his military expertise,
25 should not be looking to find what "parcel" was used for in these
1 documents, but he should first establish whether "parcel" has any kind of
2 military meaning or military use within the VRS. Then he can comment as
3 to whether this word has been used for a specific purpose in the
4 intercept. But now he is just doing the work of investigator and
5 saying, "What do I conclude, based on all the intercepts, what 'parcels'
6 referred to."
7 Maybe my colleague can ask some questions to the witness, whether
8 he knows that the word "parcel" was used before and used after and used in
9 many respect within the VRS for many purposes.
10 Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.
12 Mr. McCloskey, do you wish to comment?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We do agree that the interpretation of the
16 word "parcel," in the context that we've been talking about, is beyond
17 the -- or is out of the parameters of the witness's expertise, so we
18 prefer if no questions are put again along these lines, and we will of
19 course not give any weight to his answer to your question, Mr. McCloskey.
20 So that's it.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
22 Q. Let's keep going down the intercept. Jokic says:
23 "Who? Drago is nowhere around. I don't know where the others are
24 all day."
25 Then it continues to make references to 155 and the higher house.
1 I think we'll go to the next exhibit, 65 ter 1 --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an objection
4 I'm going to raise again. I've already raised it some days ago.
5 I don't think the Prosecutor can continue reading the exhibit
6 without asking questions.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I thought I was going to ask a question, and I
9 decided not to.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay, no big deal. Let's move.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. So 1166D should be the English. 1166C should be the B/C/S. This
13 is an intercept at 2227 hours, participants General Vilotic and Jokic, the
14 Palma duty officer.
15 Mr. Butler, have you evaluated who this General Vilotic may be?
16 A. Yes, sir, I have.
17 Q. And what's your interpretation or your conclusion regarding that?
18 A. I believe, in fact, the correspondent in this case is General
20 Q. Why?
21 A. Particularly when we first saw this intercept and recognised the
22 name, we did go back through the variety of VRS material that we had to
23 determine whether or not there was, in fact, a General Vilotic anywhere
24 within the VRS of whom this might be, and the answer was negative. So,
25 you know, given the context of that and the fact that, you know, within
1 the body of the actual intercept itself it identifies the person as a
2 general officer, it's not an assessment by the intercept operator, I
3 conclude that this is General Miletic, not a General Vilotic.
4 Q. Sorry, that's B/C/S page 2 and 3, as we'll go through this.
5 All right. We can go down and read this to ourself, though there
6 is a reference to:
7 "Where is Obradovic."
8 And as we go down, we can see this is Major Jokic, duty office
9 Palma. Can you tell us if you've made a conclusion regarding who
10 Obradovic is?
11 A. I think in that first part, particularly given the answer that in
12 the field, what in fact they're referring to is Obrenovic, then-Major
13 Obrenovic, the chief of staff of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an error in
16 translation, because in B/C/S the name is correctly spelled "Obrenovic."
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madame Fauveau.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you. I didn't notice that, though
19 there's the possibility that this is the translation of the handwritten
20 version, but I won't go there.
21 Q. Let's keep going down, and there's a discussion where Jokic says:
22 "That's right, they promised me some reinforcements, but they're
23 nowhere to be seen, you know."
24 And then V says:
25 "From where?"
1 Jokic says:
2 "Well, the blues."
3 V says:
4 "Well, see, with that Vasic, fuck him, everything available should
5 be gathered. You must raise them all. Jokic, sound the alert down there
6 in the town."
7 What's your view of who the blues are and the Vasic they're
8 referring to here?
9 A. The "Vasic" in this case is Dragan Vasic, the head of the CSB. The
10 blues are police forces of the Zvornik Municipality.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We need to go to page 3 of the B/C/S, sorry.
12 Q. All right. Now, let's go down to the bottom. Jokic says:
13 "Obrenovic is really engaged to the hilt ... We are all engaged to
14 the hilt, believe me ... This package really did for us ... We've been
15 reporting about the number of people since this morning, so ... So there."
17 "All right, don't me that."
18 "All right."
19 "All right. Do we understand each other?"
20 Jokic says:
22 V says:
23 "Go to Vasic there, get in touch with Tripkovic ...," and it goes
25 Can you made any analysis about the comment that Jokic makes
2 "Obrenovic is really engaged to the hilt ... We all are," and
3 following, what do you -- what can you conclude, if anything, that refers
5 A. In this particular context, given the engagements that are going
6 on in the Zvornik Brigade at the time and the fact that there are various
7 military units who had been assembled the day prior and who are out in
8 ambush positions, and that the people out in those ambush positions are
9 being led by Major Obrenovic, the context of this conversation deals with
10 issues primarily related to the attack and the ongoing combat with the
12 Q. Primarily. Is there some other issue that you can conclude about
13 or -- don't speculate.
14 A. Well, the only other issue that is occurring at the time, is
15 particularly at the time that this intercept is timed, at this time with
16 respect to the crime base you have the prisoners who are being held at
17 Orahovac. Their executions were still being completed and they were being
18 buried, and you still had prisoners being detained at the school at
19 Petkovci and the school at Rocevic, and prisoners were being brought to
20 the school in Pilica. So that's another -- with respect to what was
21 happening at that point in time, that would have been occupying the
22 efforts of the command and the staff.
23 So those are your two major situations that are occurring.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madame Fauveau.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the witness cannot
1 make a conclusion, a single conclusion, he can conclude anything, because
2 we're falling back to speculation.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but it's precisely what he was asked not to
4 do, if you read Mr. McCloskey's question. And, in any case, we are in a
5 position, if we think that his conclusion is -- borders on speculation,
6 we'll not give it any weight.
7 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
8 MR. BOURGON: Can we be in closed session, Mr. President, please?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session, please.
10 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. All right. Mr. Butler, let's continue in the chronology to 65 ter
9 326 --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. It should be your tab 12. It's a 14 July regular combat report
13 from the Zvornik Brigade. 326. It's just the first page that I'm
14 interested in.
15 This is in the name of Chief of Staff Major Dragan Jokic. It has
16 a time of about 1840 hours on it. And I just want to refer you to the --
17 this document briefly.
18 Does it give us an indication of combat activities that are
19 occurring between the column and the Zvornik Brigade at this point?
20 A. At this point in time -- and just a quick correction. It's
21 actually signed by Chief of Staff -- or in the name of Chief of Staff
22 Major Obrenovic, not Jokic, as you indicated.
23 Q. Sorry.
24 A. But at this point in time, it doesn't discuss, with the exception
25 of one notation about a large column routed at Velja Glava, most of the
1 report details with the steps that they are continuing to take. So most
2 of this is not detailing the actual combat with the column. It's, in
3 fact, detailing the preventative measures that the brigade is still trying
4 to make.
5 Q. All right. And just to take you to that -- the second page of
6 your -- where you corrected me, we see some initials above the chief of
7 staff. Who do you think those initials are?
8 A. The "DJ," particularly given the fact that we know Major Jokic is
9 the duty officer that day, would be his initials, "Dragan Josic."
10 Q. Any idea who "MB" is?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 327. This has
13 a -- this is much later. It has a "sent" notation at the bottom of it at
14 011 hours on 15 July, again under the name Chief of Staff Major Dragan
15 Jokic, to the Command of the Drina Corps. I said "Jokic" again. I'm
16 sorry, "Obrenovic." Quit looking at those initials. We see the same
17 initials again.
18 Tell us about what this is, briefly.
19 A. At this particular time, the column has broken through all of the
20 initial ambush positions and defence lines that had been established in a
21 hasty matter on the Snagovo and the southern part of the Zvornik Brigade
22 areas of responsibility. Colonel -- or Major Obrenovic at this time is
23 informing his superior command, the Drina Corps that, you know, the size
24 of the column that he notes is over two to three kilometres long and that,
25 you know, in his estimation, it is realistic to expect that they will be
1 making a breakthrough of the defence lines in the area of responsibility
2 of two of his battalions, the 4th and 7th, either later that night or
3 early in the morning.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document. It's 65 ter 297.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon.
6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Before we move to the next document, could the -- the witness has
8 said that he doesn't know who the individual with the initials "MB," and
9 we have two intercepts that he doesn't know who that is. I'd like to know
10 from the witness, maybe if he can ask whether he tried to identify that
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Butler.
13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Who would the -- what position would the "MB" be, in the context
16 of these -- that document? What would that mean, again?
17 A. That would be, according to their administrative protocol, those
18 are the initials of the actual person who -- the clerk or the typist who
19 actually put the document together.
20 Q. Okay. So let's get to 65 ter 297. And can you just tell us what
21 this document is?
22 A. I'm sorry, which tab is it on mine, sir?
23 Q. I'm sorry, it's 14.
24 A. Okay, thank you.
25 Q. Oh, and that's B/C/S 135.
1 A. The document that's on the screen is the first page of what we
2 call the orders book for the Engineer Company of the Zvornik Infantry
3 Brigade. It is a book that is maintained by the company command that
4 reflects their orders and duties on any particular day, and it's updated
5 on a daily basis.
6 Q. All right. And in just looking at this, do you connect any of
7 this information to your -- to your narrative?
8 A. Yes, sir, I do.
9 Q. Can you just briefly explain what information, and then we'll just
10 go from there. I don't think we need a big explanation.
11 A. No, sir, this is -- this particular --
12 Q. It should be 15 in the English. I apologise.
13 A. Looking at page 15 when it comes up, what it is is a notation that
14 the company commander of the Engineer Company has an awareness of where
15 major pieces of his equipment are operating.
16 Q. All right. I think we can go to the next. I'm going to the --
17 well, let's go to the next. That should be your 15, Mr. Butler, 65 ter
18 302, and page 1 in the English, page -- let's start off with page 1 in the
19 B/C/S as well.
20 Actually, I apologise. Let's skip that. That's one I want to
21 skip, and I want to go to 65 ter 944; B/C/S 1, English 1. And we can
22 start off with the first page of both so you can just tell us what it is,
23 and then we want to go to page 2 in the B/C/S. That's your tab 16.
24 A. Okay, I just wanted to make sure I had the correct document. Yes,
25 sir, it's a vehicle log for a TAM 80 truck.
1 Q. And what's the significance of this to your analysis, as briefly
2 as you can tell us?
3 A. This is a vehicle that we've associated with the 6th Infantry
4 Battalion, based on other vehicle documents and logs, and it shows,
5 particularly with respect to 15 July, there are references "Petkovci,
6 Brana, Petkovci." "Brana," as I understand the Serbo-Croatian language,
7 is "Dam," so it's a reference that this particular vehicle was making at
8 least one trip back and forth between the village of Petkovci and the dam
9 and then returned.
10 Q. All right. And did you -- without any details, did that fit into
11 what you call your crime base analysis?
12 A. Yes, sir, it did.
13 JUDGE KWON: Let's make sure whether we are looking at the same
14 page. Oh, yes, the second page.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, the second page, B/C/S, if we go to the 15 --
16 I'm sorry, we need to get -- it's not on the screen, the second page of
17 the B/C/S, and English.
18 Okay, then go to the next page. I apologise. If we can blow that
19 up to see the section for 15.
20 Q. Looking at the screen, Mr. Butler, just to make sure, and looking
21 at your original documents, I just want to make sure we've got the right
22 section there so that the Court and everyone can see.
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. So do you see there, at 15: "Petkovci, Brana, Petkovci"?
25 A. Yes, sir, I do. A little difficult on the screen here, but, I do
1 see it, yes, sir.
2 Q. And number of journeys is six?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, and I'll perhaps be
5 able to save some -- 65 ter 304. This is another work log with the same
6 people's names on it, Topalovic and Josic, but it's another vehicle, it's
7 a TAM 75. And if we go to that particular section for 15 July, Mr.
8 Butler, does that information -- what information do you have, and how
9 does that fit into your analysis?
10 Sorry, we need to keep going on to the next page. I apologise.
11 A. We only have those two pages in my --
12 Q. Sorry, we're going to have to come back and find -- find that
13 reference. I apologise.
14 Let's go to 65 ter 1177A, which is another intercept. This is
15 dated 15 July at 0952 hours. It's a short reference. It states:
16 "Colonel Beara was looking for General Zivanovic, but he was not
17 there. He said he was to call him at extension 139."
18 I won't ask you about those two gentlemen anymore, but what about
19 extension 139? What, if anything, did your review indicate about what
20 extension that was?
21 A. From the documents we looked at from the Zvornik Brigade seizure,
22 that included the unit phone lists, extension 139 in the Zvornik Brigade
23 is the phone associated with Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, the chief of
25 Q. All right. Now let's go to 65 ter 1178A in the English and 1178C
1 in the B/C/S, and let's begin with page 1 of the English and page 1 of the
2 B/C/S. We now have a transcribed conversation that, by the time count, is
3 9.54, basically two minutes after the previous one, and the participants
4 are General Zivanovic and Colonel Ljubo Beara. And if we can look at
5 that, I won't read it all out, I'll -- but I want to start with you where,
6 according to the document, Beara says:
7 "You know that day, I informed the commander about it. Furtula
8 didn't send Lukic's intervention platoon."
9 Can you remind us or tell us who you believe Furtula is in the
10 context of this conversation?
11 A. In the context of this conversation, I believe Furtula is Major
12 Radomir Furtula, the commander of the Visegrad Brigade.
13 Q. And how about "Lukic," the reference to Lukic's intervention
15 A. I believe this is a reference to the individual Milan Lukic, who
16 was a member of that brigade.
17 Q. When you say "that brigade," just to be clear --
18 A. Visegrad Brigade, I'm sorry.
19 Q. All right. And then Zivanovic says:
20 "And Lukic is waiting at Blagojevic."
21 And then Beara says:
22 "Lukic is here with me and his driver, and we urged them on that."
23 Where do you believe Beara is at the time of this conversation?
24 A. Particularly, you know, connected with the last conversation, at
25 the time this conversation is occurring, I believe that Colonel Beara is
1 up in the Zvornik Brigade area.
2 Q. Okay. Then we'll just -- if we could continue to read down
3 ourselves, makes the comment:
4 "Simply he doesn't give a damn about the commander's order. Well
5 now, that platoon has 60 men."
6 When Beara says "the commander's order," can you make a conclusion
7 who the commander would be in that context?
8 A. Given that Colonel Beara is a Main Staff officer, the commander
9 that he would be referring to would be General Mladic.
10 Q. Okay. And the discussion goes down a bit, and General Zivanovic
12 "I can't order that anymore."
13 And then there's this short: "Uh-huh."
14 And then Zivanovic says:
16 Beara says:
17 "385, that's right."
18 And that is -- Beara asks:
19 "What telephone exchange is 385?"
20 Zivanovic says:
21 "Zlatar and 385."
22 Okay, Can you tell us what you believe 385 and Zlatar to be?
23 A. "Zlatar" is the telephonic code name for the Drina Corps. The
24 extension 385 is one that we've associated with the commander of the Drina
1 Q. And this comment that Zivanovic makes before that:
2 "I can't order that anymore," what do you think that's a reference
4 A. It's a reflection that Colonel Zivanovic is no longer the
5 commander of the Drina Corps, and, as such, he no longer has the right to
6 give these types of orders.
7 Q. Can't order what anymore, in your view?
8 A. Can't order unit deployments, can't order people of the corps to
9 change dispositions, things of that nature.
10 Q. Okay. And how do you conclude that he's no longer commander?
11 A. I base that back on prior -- a prior document that we've talked
12 about, which shows that on the evening of 13 July 1995, that General
13 Krstic assumed command of the Drina Corps and that General Zivanovic was
14 relieved of that command.
15 Q. All right. Let's go to --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Break time, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. This is a three-part
18 intercept. It may take five minutes. We can -- however you wish. I
19 usually prefer to take the break right on time, but it might take us five
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, go ahead.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless there's -- okay.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
25 Q. So now this conversation began at 0954 hours. Let's go to the
1 next one, 65 ter 1179A and B. This is another intercept at 1000 hours,
2 about six minutes later from the time the last one started, and it's --
3 may we have the B/C/S first page, please. This is noted between Ljubo
4 Beara and General Krstic.
5 How does that fit with the last few lines we just read about 385
6 and the other information you mentioned?
7 A. Yes, sir, I mean, it dovetails right into what I've indicated
9 Q. And can you make any conclusion where General Krstic is at this
11 A. At this particular juncture, General Krstic is, as far as I'm
12 aware, physically located at the Drina Corps IKM, the forward command post
13 down with respect to Zepa.
14 Q. All right. And as we look at this, Beara starts out saying:
15 "General Furtula didn't carry out the boss's order."
16 Who do you think "the boss" is in this context?
17 A. As I indicated before, particularly now that he's speaking to
18 General Krstic, completely eliminating him from, you know, the possibility
19 of being the boss, I think we remain back with the boss being General
20 Mladic, his superior.
21 Q. Okay. Beara says -- or Krstic says:
22 "Listen, he ordered him to take out a tank, not a train."
23 Have you been able to make any -- any clear sense out of that --
24 out of that comment? And again I don't want you to speculate.
25 A. No, sir.
1 Q. Okay. The next one, Beara says:
2 "But I need 30 men, just like it was ordered."
3 And Krstic says:
4 "Take them from Tasic or Sladojevic. I can't pull anybody out of
5 here for you."
6 What do you believe this reference to Tasic or Sladojevic is?
7 A. In this particular context, particularly when you go further down
8 in this particular intercept where it notes Nastic and Blagojevic, what I
9 believe is that happened that the intercept operator improperly heard the
10 names. He got them close, but in fact were referring to Major Nastic or
11 Colonel Blagojevic, his subordinates.
12 Q. And remind us, I think, who Nastic is.
13 A. Major Nastic is the commander of the Milici Light Infantry
14 Brigade. Colonel Blagojevic is the commander of the Bratunac Light
15 Infantry Brigade.
16 Q. Okay. And:
17 "I can't pull anybody out of here for you."
18 What do you think that's a reference to?
19 A. Given where General Krstic is and what his activities are engaged
20 in with the Zepa battle front, he's already detached the deployed forces
21 of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade at this point in time to return to Zvornik
22 to deal with the military issue of the column. What he is essentially
23 saying is that "I cannot pull any more forces out from where we are that
24 are engaged in military operations against Zepa."
25 Q. All right. Then we see the discussion going on a bit. Krstic
1 responds that it will disturb everything on his axis if he pulls them
2 out. I think that's -- and then there's this comment by Beara:
3 "I need 15 to 30 men with Boban Indjic. I can't do anything."
4 Do you know who Boban Indjic is?
5 A. Yes, sir. Boban Indjic is an individual who was a subordinate of
6 Milan Lukic at the Visegrad Brigade. They are associated from their time
7 beginning at the early part of the war from April, May, June of 1992.
8 Q. All right. Krstic states that:
9 "Ljubo, this," something, "is not secure."
10 Beara says:
11 "I know, I know."
12 Krstic says:
13 "I'll see what I can do, but it'll disturb a lot. Please, you
14 have down there at Nastic and Blagojevic."
15 Then Beara says:
16 "But I don't have any. If I did, I wouldn't still be asking for
17 the third day."
18 So what does that indicate to you, when he says "the third day"?
19 A. That, you know, going backwards in time, that the purpose why
20 Colonel Beara needed these men was an issue known as early as 12 July
22 Q. And then Krstic says:
23 "Check with Blagojevic, take his Red Berets."
24 And you've talked about this subject briefly, but can you just
25 tell us what you think that means?
1 A. The Red Beret is a intervention platoon that's subordinate to the
2 3rd Infantry Battalion of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade. There's a
3 prior reference of the units of the Red Beret being sent to Milici for a,
4 quote, "task down there" which we take to be their part of the operation
5 against Zepa. In fact, what other information has developed is that most
6 of the Red Beret Platoon at this particular time left the battlefield and
7 married up with members of the Srebrenica SJB. Many of them were reserve
8 policemen and showed up and wanted to become reserve policemen in
9 Srebrenica rather than remain in the army.
10 Q. Okay, so we see the next comment by Beara:
11 "They're not there. Only four of them are still there. They took
12 off, fuck 'em, they're not there anymore."
13 Krstic says:
14 "I'll see what I can do."
15 "Check it out and have them go to Drago's."
16 In the context of this conversation now, who do you think he's
17 referring to when he says "go to Drago's"?
18 A. Drago Nikolic at the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
19 Q. Okay. Then it goes on:
20 "I can't guarantee anything. I'll take steps."
21 That's what Krstic says. And then Beara says:
22 "Krle, I don't know what to do anymore."
23 And then Krstic says:
24 "Ljubo, take those MUP guys from up there."
25 What do you think that's a reference to?
1 A. That would be a reference to the various police units that are
2 engaged in combat activities.
3 Q. Where, if you know?
4 A. It could be those police units that are engaged along the road
5 from Kravica, Konjevic Polje. It alternately could be municipal police
6 units from the Zvornik Municipality. It's not clear.
7 Q. Okay. And then Beara says:
8 "No, they won't do anything. I talked to them. There's no other
9 solution but for those 15 to 30 men with Indjic. They were supposed to
10 arrive on the 13th, but didn't."
11 Is there any other indication of any of -- any Visegrad guys or
12 Indjic guys on the 13th?
13 A. Yes, sir, and there is an intercept that refers to the fact that a
14 bus had been sent down to Visegrad to bring individual members up, but
15 that bus had suffered a mechanical breakdown and it had never arrived.
16 Q. All right. And as we go down, it says -- Krstic says:
17 "Ljubo, you have to understand me, you guys fucked me up so much."
18 What do you think that's a reference to?
19 A. The fact that, in this particular context where now he's short of
20 troops to engage in the Zepa operation, the fact that more and more
21 soldiers who should be being used in combat operations are being detailed
22 for their involvement with Colonel Beara.
23 Q. And then Beara says:
24 "I understand, but you have to understand me too. Had this been
25 done then, we wouldn't be arguing over it now."
1 Then Krstic says:
2 "Fuck it, now I'll be the one to blame."
3 What's Krstic worried about here, in your view, if you don't
5 MR. HAYNES: The answer to that question has to be speculation.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If the Court doesn't want to hear his response,
7 I'm fine to go on to the next question.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you can safely go to the next question,
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless you're finished.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm very close.
13 Mr. President, I would normally ask Mr. Butler his view on the
14 3,500, what that means, but we have this word "parcels" which was the
15 reference to your earlier ruling. Do you want me to ask him that question
16 or not?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Then we're done.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I stand to be corrected, but --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I see shakings of heads, so I think it's break
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll have the break, but before we
23 do so, we have an oral decision completely unrelated to what we are
24 dealing with.
25 This is our oral decision on the admissibility of the Borovcanin
1 interview against the co-accused.
2 The Trial Chamber recalls the Appeals Chamber decision on appeals
3 against decision admitting material relating to Borovcanin's questioning
4 of 14th December 2007, in which the Appeals Chamber remanded the issue of
5 the admissibility of the Borovcanin interview with regard to Borovcanin's
6 co-accused to the Trial Chamber.
7 Following the appeals decision and in the circumstances of the
8 case arising therefrom, the Trial Chamber hereby admits the Borovcanin
9 recordings and the Borovcanin transcripts against -- or vis-a-vis the
10 other co-accused.
11 Yes, Mr. Josse.
12 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm slightly puzzled, with respect, by
13 that, because I had assumed, on reading the Appeals Chamber decision, that
14 at the very least, this Trial Chamber would invite further submissions
15 from the parties. That was my understanding of what the Appeals Chamber
16 was saying. They were saying it needed to be remanded, for the matter to
17 be reconsidered on a rather different basis. But if the Appeals -- I beg
18 your pardon. If this Trial Chamber takes --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We didn't read it -- we didn't read it that way.
20 MR. JOSSE: Okay.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: If you read the reversal, you will understand why.
23 So let's have a 25-minute break, which means let's fix the -- it's
24 20 -- we'll meet at 10 minutes past, or 8 minutes past 11.00. Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.43 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, Mr. Beara's waiver has arrived
3 and we've seen it.
4 Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 If we could go to 65 ter 328, page 1 in both languages. And this
7 is a regular combat report from the Command of the Zvornik Brigade. This
8 has the name of Commander Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic on it, with
9 a time stamp of about 1911 hours.
10 Q. And, Mr. Butler, can you briefly give us a synopsis of what this
11 is communicating and whether you think it accurately reflects the
13 A. Yes, sir, this is -- sorry. This reflects the knowledge of the
14 VRS and particularly the Zvornik Infantry Brigade of their combat
15 situation during the morning and early afternoon hours in a very general
16 extent, does not get into details, and also lists out the primary tasks of
17 the units with respect to that. Again, it's not a very detailed report,
18 and in the future you'll -- you know, later that day, because it's not a
19 detailed report, you'll see a far more detailed report about the military
21 Q. All right. And when -- near the bottom of -- well, in
22 paragraph 2:
23 "Units which participated in combat activities in Srebrenica and
24 Zepa areas returned during the day to the brigade's area of responsibility
25 and are involved in an action against enemy groups retreating from
2 Can you outline who you believe that refers to, units and, well,
3 top personnel?
4 A. Yes, sir. As both the documents and, I believe, prior testimony
5 reflect, on the early morning hours of 15 July 1995, the two
6 battalion-sized formations of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, under the
7 command at that time of Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, and were engaged in
8 Zepa, were withdrawn from that battlefield and directed to return back to
9 the Zvornik Brigade area to be engaged in military operations against the
10 column. I believe the timing is such that these particular formations
11 were back in the brigade zone by approximately noon on 15 July 1995.
12 Q. All right. And this just brief reference to brigade area of
13 responsibility, is that at all related to your other previous brief
14 discussion when you talked about brigades' area of responsibility?
15 A. Yes, sir, it is.
16 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 329. This we have as a
17 handwritten document, and on the first page of the English and B/C/S, it
18 is from the Command of the Zvornik Brigade, 15 July, entitled "Interim
19 Combat Report," with a time stamp of 1925 hours on the 15th.
20 Is this related to the reference you just made about more detail?
21 A. Yes, sir, it is.
22 Q. And referring to the first three big paragraphs, there's -- can
23 you just synopsize that very briefly? I don't want you to repeat that,
24 but is that the situation you're talking about?
25 A. Yes, sir, it is. It gives a fairly detailed description on what
1 the Zvornik Brigade Command, and in this particular case specifically the
2 commander, understands the enemy situation to be, what impact it's having
3 on his subordinate formations, and what they are doing particularly with
4 respect to what areas of the battlefield they're trying to seal off.
5 Q. All right. And I'd like to take you now down to the -- I believe
6 it's the fourth paragraph. That should be in the B/C/S page 2, beginning:
7 "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners
8 distributed throughout the schools in the brigade area, as well as
9 obligations of security and restoration of the terrain."
10 What do you view this term "as well --" excuse me, the phrase "as
11 well as obligations of security and restoration of the terrain"; what is
12 your interpretation of that?
13 A. In the context of the sentence, Colonel Pandurevic is noting the
14 number of Muslim prisoners held in schools in his brigade zone, and he's
15 reflecting the fact that they are guarding those prisoners, that
16 obligation of security to guard the prisoners. "Restoration of terrain"
17 is the CLSS English translation of the Serbo-Croatian phrase "asanacija."
18 I'm not sure. I detail that in my report. I'm not sure that it's come
19 before the Trial Chamber as to the exact definition, but it's the rough
20 equivalent of the process to bury biological, human, animal waste, things
21 of that nature, in order to prevent a biological hazard from developing.
22 Q. And what is your view that that is a reference of?
23 A. My view is that that is a reference of he's reporting that part of
24 his obligation is to bury the bodies of those individuals who have already
25 been executed.
1 Q. What about "asanacija." Of the battlefield that's resulting --
2 that we've just seen from the 13th, 14th, 15th of July, in those reports?
3 A. In this context, it's a matter of -- a function of timing and a
4 function of looking at the engineer records, looking at where the column
5 is on the battlefield. In this point in time, where the column is and
6 where the Muslims are taking military casualties, the Zvornik Brigade is
7 not involved in burying Muslim military casualties at that point. That
8 particular area of terrain is still under Muslim control. The only
9 appreciable amount of bodies that they're burying at this point in time
10 have to be the prisoners that were executed at the schools.
11 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 3017, and
12 this -- this original is -- the date is not clear up in the left-hand
13 corner from the original. Do you -- can you glean a date from this
14 document? Let's -- we should probably wait until we get the English up.
15 A. Yes, sir. If you look at the Serbo-Croatian version, the B/C/S
16 version, you'll notice a time stamp there of 19 July, 1920 hours.
17 Q. So what's the significance of this document?
18 A. The original version of the B/C/S either -- there seems to be an
19 inordinately large blank between where the "9" should be. I think the
20 most logical explanation is we are looking at a "9" that failed to typed
22 Q. Okay. And why is it you call our -- have you called our attention
23 to this document?
24 A. In my view, this is the first -- at this point in time on 19 July,
25 this is the first document that reflects the fact that pertaining to the
1 larger amount of Muslims who were killed in the column and other
2 battlefield casualties who are laying out on the battlefield, the first
3 time that they are talking about that -- going after and burying these
4 individuals before they start to become a biological hazard. So you have
5 two groups of burial operations, one related to the known crime scenes.
6 Subsequent to that, you have the efforts to conduct the burial of those
7 individuals who were casualties as a result of combat in the column area.
8 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 3016. This is a
9 document from the Command of the Drina Corps, from the assistant commander
10 for logistics, Lazar, Colonel Lazar. I believe that's a mis-type. It
11 should be "Acamovic." Is that correct, Mr. Butler?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And this document is entitled: "Clearing up of the battlefield,"
14 or in the B/C/S I think we can see "asanacija." Is this similar to what
15 you just testified about, a similar document?
16 A. Yes, sir, in fact, it outlines specific areas of the battlefield
17 with respect to the Zvornik Brigade with respect to Kamenica and Snagovo.
18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 2754. A bit of a
19 different area here for a moment. We have a Main Staff document now, and
20 I don't know if you -- it's to the Krajina Corps and the Drina Corps for
21 information of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, commander or chief of
22 staff personally, from -- it should be on the list under 2518, if people
23 are looking. Chief of staff's representative, I think it's the same --
24 the boss says it is.
25 A. She's right again.
1 Q. I believe that is just a translation issue. It should
2 be "standing in for the chief of staff, Major General Radivoje Miletic."
3 This is a report on the dispatch of infantry company to assist the 1st
4 Zvornik Brigade, and it -- so we can see it talks about a unit from the
5 1st Krajina Corps going to assist the Zvornik Brigade.
6 Can you briefly --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
8 Yes, Madame Fauveau.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to raise
10 an objection with respect to the way the Prosecutor interprets a
11 translation mistake, because I believe that this word can be translated in
12 many different ways, and I would like the Prosecutor to abstain from
13 commenting on the way the function -- the title of General Miletic has
14 been translated in this particular document.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is an old debate. I believe - Ms. Fauveau
17 can correct me if I'm wrong - but the terminology that's used here,
18 [Bosnian spoken], is the same --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I'll stop you here. I think this matter can
20 be dealt with on cross-examination like you did previously with other
21 witnesses, Madame Fauveau. Let's see if my colleagues disagree with me.
22 Judge Kwon.
23 Okay, let's move on.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a consistency of translation.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And of course Madame Fauveau will have every right
1 and opportunity to cross-examine the witness.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, just to -- the problem with
3 Ms. Fauveau here is that there's a French way of interpreting this --
4 remember this debate, it gets very complex, and I'm not sure
5 cross-examination helps Mr. Butler. But, in any event, I apologise. I'll
6 try -- I'll continue.
7 Q. Mr. Butler, how does this document that appears to involve a unit
8 from the Krajina going to help out the Zvornik Brigade, how does that fit
9 into your analysis, briefly?
10 A. This is -- this document is a -- a classic example of, you know,
11 where the competence of the Main Staff would be with respect to their
12 authority to order units from a different corps to be resubordinated, or a
13 company or several companies from a different corps formation to be
14 resubordinated to a different corps, in order to deal with a tactical
16 By the 15th of July, the morning hours, the VRS leadership was
17 becoming acutely aware of the developing military crisis in the Zvornik
18 Brigade, and they were actively involved in trying to find additional
19 forces that could be sent to the Zvornik Brigade area to combat the
20 column. Colonel -- or, I'm sorry, General Krstic certainly would not be
21 within his competence to direct a unit from outside his corps to do this.
22 The only organ of the VRS that could do this would be the Main Staff.
23 Q. Okay. And that unit arrives to the Zvornik Brigade -- or when
24 that unit arrived to the Zvornik Brigade, under whose command was it
25 under, in your view?
1 A. When that unit arrived in the Zvornik Brigade zone and was
2 employed, it was under the command of the Zvornik Brigade commander,
3 Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic.
4 Q. And can you relate this particular -- did you relate this
5 particular unit to any crime base?
6 A. Yes, sir. The -- this particular company is -- has been
7 associated with the crime base known as "the Nezuk crime base."
8 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 297. And just
9 to clarify, that Nezuk crime base, that's part of a charge in the
10 indictment, is that correct, referring it, in rough terms, that way?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. 65 ter 297. Again, this -- and that's page 136 of the
13 B/C/S and page 16 of the English. We see this order book from the
14 engineers that you've referred to before. We see references to a BGH-700
15 and an ULT-220. Have you incorporated that into your analysis connecting
16 it to a crime base?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And have you also, in your narrative, noted some logs related to
19 various excavating equipment on similar dates?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Let's go to the next one, which would be 27 in your tab,
22 Mr. Butler, 1187A, 65 ter, and C in the B/C/S, page 1. An intercept, 16
23 July, at 1111 hours. According to the operators, it's between Colonel
24 Ljubo Beara and Cerovic. Can you remind us who you believe Cerovic is?
25 A. I believe that's Colonel Cerovic, who is the assistant commander
1 for morale, legal and religious affairs for the Drina Corps at the time.
2 Q. And do you have any opinion on where Cerovic was at the time of
3 this conversation?
4 A. Yes, sir. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe he's functioning as the
5 duty officer of the Drina Corps at their headquarters in Vlasenica on this
7 Q. All right. You say unless you're mistaken. Well, perhaps --
8 well, I don't want to go back and show you the duty officer roster at this
9 point, but let me ask you about -- can you remind us who Turkulja is?
10 A. Yes, sir. Colonel Turkulja is the chief of the armoured and
11 mechanised forces. He's a staff officer on the Main Staff.
12 Q. All right. And I think we can all read that ourselves, and what I
13 want to ask you is: This conversation about Beara and triage, have you
14 identified any information in your review of the materials that there was
15 some kind of a medical triage done where prisoners were actually looked
16 after in a medical way?
17 A. The only prisoners that I am aware of that were looked at in a
18 medical way would be those prisoners who were initially treated at the
19 Milici Health Centre or subsequently transferred to the Zvornik Hospital,
20 and then after that to the dispensary at the Standard headquarters of the
21 Zvornik Brigade. I am not aware of medical treatment being administered
22 to any of the other larger groups of prisoners at any of the schools in
23 the Zvornik Brigade area.
24 Q. All right. Let's go to the next exhibit, 65 ter 377. This should
25 be the B/C/S page 146, English 27, out of the Zvornik Brigade duty officer
1 notebook. And I want to ask you, it says -- or the English translation of
2 03089333, if that's helpful.
3 A. What tab is that?
4 Q. It should be 28 for you.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. And, first of all, this page, it should be ERN 5764 out of the
7 notebook. Do you see the notebook reference, Mr. Butler?
8 A. Yes, sir, I do, I found it. It was mis-tabbed in my binder.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. No, actually, I didn't. I'll have to go off the screen. I'm
12 Q. Yeah, let's go off the screen. And just taking a look at that
13 page, is that something you've read before and read in preparation for
14 your testimony?
15 A. Yes, sir, it is.
16 Q. And were you able to conclude what date that page is from?
17 A. I believe that at this juncture, we're talking 16 July 1995,
18 although I'd like to see the larger document in context, because there is
19 a -- there is a dating sequence to it.
20 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you -- just if we can blow that up a
21 little bit -- make a reference to the section at 1115 hours:
22 "It was reported from Zlatar that a triage of wounded and
23 prisoners must be carried out. It was reported to Beara."
24 Now, that previous intercept we looked at was the same -- was 16
25 July, 1111 hours. Do you relate these two documents?
1 A. Yes, sir, I believe they're directly related.
2 Q. All right. And this -- right below that, it says:
3 "At 1120 hours, Badem, Colonel Jankovic was looking for Major
5 Can you tell us who you think that is and where he is, the
7 A. The reference to Colonel Jankovic and Badem is a reflection of
8 Colonel Jankovic's presence at the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade
9 headquarters. Major Malinic is the commander of the 65th Protection
10 Regiment's Military Police Battalion. It seems to indicate that maybe
11 Major Malinic, you know, may be somewhere up in the Zvornik Brigade zone
12 at that point in time.
13 Q. Okay. Now, let's -- let's go to the next document. It's an
14 intercept, 1189A and C. It should be B/C/S page 2, English page 1. This
15 is the Zlatar duty officer speaking to the Palma duty officer. So as
16 you've stated before, that should be the duty officer of the Drina Corps
17 at Vlasenica speaking to the duty officer at the Zvornik Brigade. And in
18 the second line, it says:
19 "Palma duty officer speaking. 500 litres of D2 for Lieutenant
20 Colonel Popovic."
21 "For Lieutenant Colonel Popovic?"
22 Then it goes on, and it appears that a person named Basevic gets
23 on the line. Okay. Can you just tell us who, in this context, you think
24 Popovic is and Basevic?
25 A. In the context of this intercept, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is
1 Vujadin Popovic, the chief of security of the Drina Corps. Major -- the
2 individual named Basevic is Major Basevic, who the chief of technical
3 services for the Drina Corps.
4 Q. All right. And I think we can see ourselves that it's about a
5 discussion related to this 500 litres, and it goes on and says:
6 "500 litres of D2 are urgently being asked for, or else the work
7 he's doing will stop."
8 And then it goes on, as we can read it to ourselves. Basevic
10 "Two tonnes are arriving now at your place."
11 There's a reference to:
12 "Well, then get in touch with Rocevic."
13 Do you know what that has anything to do with?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Okay. And then there's a reference to Major Golic. Who would
16 that be?
17 A. Major Golic is the -- is an intelligence officer. He -- with the
18 Drina Corps. He's subordinate to Colonel Kosoric.
19 Q. And according to this, what would be his position? Well:
20 "Give me the operations duty officer."
21 Can you relate that at all to Golic or not, or is that --
22 A. I don't believe on this day that Major Golic is the -- is the duty
23 officer this day. I think it's, in the context, it's a separate question,
24 once they get back to the duty officer, the question is Major Golic there
25 by chance.
1 Q. Okay. And then Palma says:
2 "Golic, Pop just called me and told me to contact you. 500 litres
3 of D2 have to be sent to him immediately. Otherwise, his work will stop."
4 Then they go down a little bit, keep reading, and then:
5 "A bus loaded with oil is to go to Pilica village. That's it."
6 "500 litres."
7 Now, in your view, where is this D2 supposed to go to?
8 A. It directly references the village of Pilica.
9 Q. And this is the second reference that:
10 "Popovic needs the fuel. Otherwise, his work will stop."
11 Are you aware of any -- any work that is going on in the area of
12 Pilica that would require these kinds of amounts of fuel?
13 A. Yes, sir. It would be related to the transport of Muslims being
14 held at the school to the Branjevo Farm, where they're subsequently
16 Q. Are you aware of any other construction or movement, transport, or
17 anything else in that area, besides that fact you just mentioned?
18 A. No, sir, there's no corresponding combat activity or any other
19 activity of the nature that would call for that fuel.
20 Q. Okay. Let's go to 65 ter 291. It should be just a one-page
21 document, some kind of a form. I note, in the left-hand corner as we look
22 at the original, we see a date of 16 July. The name and address of sender
23 is: "Military post 7469, Zvornik." Name and address of
24 recipient: "Commander of the Drina Corps, addressee station," in
25 parentheses: "For Lieutenant Colonel Popovic." Then in the body of it,
1 there's a reference as we can see related to diesel fuel, up to and
2 including number 1, and then it -- by the order -- according to the order
3 of Captain S. Milosevic: "Remark, out of 500 litres of D2, 140 litres were
5 What kind of document is this?
6 A. This is a typical logistical invoice, if you will, reflecting the
7 fact that on a given day, a product or a certain commodity was dispersed.
8 We see these types of documents with reflection to all manner of technical
9 goods; ammunition, batteries, fuel, things of that nature.
10 Q. Okay. And we see also down in the left-hand corner a date that's
11 handwritten in: "17 July 1995". Then we go over and we see M. Krstic as a
12 special service organ -- under "special service organ," excuse me, and
14 "Findings and signature of commission to be received by ..."
15 And then:
16 " ... Received by Bogicevic, Branko."
17 Now, can you relate this document to the previous intercept?
18 A. Yes, sir. What you're seeing in this particular document is the
19 end result of a process, and I've discussed this in my narrative, whereas
20 the -- you know, the chief of security, you know, acting within the field
21 of his competence, does not have the authority to order the Zvornik
22 Brigade to disperse fuel. What has to happen is it has to be turned into
23 a request through the branches of the Drina Corps, through the rear
24 services, for approval, and then be back down. And I think what you have
25 between that particular prior intercept and this particular document is a
1 fair illustration of how that process worked, from the requirements of
2 Colonel Popovic, up through the security chain and operational chain to
3 the Drina Corps, across to the logistics and technical services people,
4 and then back down again to the logistical people of the Zvornik Brigade,
5 who then now have the proper authority to disperse the fuel.
6 Q. And in your knowledge, who is in command of the Drina Corps -- of
7 the Zvornik Brigade on 16 July?
8 A. Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic.
9 Q. How about on the 15th of July, after he returned from the Zepa
10 operations, who was in command of the Zvornik Brigade?
11 A. Well, to clarify, Colonel Pandurevic was never not in command of
12 the Zvornik Brigade. Even when he was down dealing with issues related to
13 Srebrenica and Zepa, there was no formal relinquishment of command. The
14 fact is that in the absence of Colonel Pandurevic, you know, the chief of
15 staff, Major Obrenovic, had the authority and in fact dealt with the
16 day-to-day operations of the brigade. But there's not a question of at
17 some point in time, either before or after, there was a formal
18 relinquishment of command.
19 Q. Can you outline for us what the military responsibilities are for
20 a brigade commander that's out of his zone, you know, leading his units in
21 another operation, in relation to his command that you've just referred
22 to, the command of the Zvornik Brigade in this context?
23 A. Going back to the doctrinal issue of how the JNA
24 defines "command," there is a formal process by which if it is going to be
25 a situation where the brigade commander is going to be out of his zone of
1 operations for an extended period of time, where his deputy or another
2 officer, if that may be the case, will be appointed as standing in for the
3 commander, it's a legal delegation because it does recognise that even
4 though the chief of staff, functioning as the deputy commander in his
5 absence, you know, can deal with most day-to-day issues, there are some
6 legal or other administrative issues that even the deputy commander cannot
7 accomplish on his own and needs -- and needs to have a formal order that
8 he is in fact standing in for the commander.
9 You see this illustration in August of 1995, when Colonel
10 Pandurevic does take two -- a battalion or two battalions from the Zvornik
11 Brigade and is deployed to the battle front in the Krajina, where this
12 formal designation takes place. Back to Srebrenica, you do not have a
13 formal relinquishing of the responsibility of the command, so in that
14 context, while Major Obrenovic, as the chief of staff, is controlling
15 day-to-day operations and is responsible for the conduct of those
16 day-to-day operations, Colonel Pandurevic, as the brigade commander, still
17 remains overall responsible as the brigade commander.
18 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to our fuel and -- issue, did you review
19 the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook for any potential reference to
20 this fuel situation on the 16th?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. And let's go to 65 ter number 377. It should be page 148 in the
23 B/C/S and 29 in the English, or 0308933 in the English translation.
24 Blow that up a bit.
25 Do you see anything on that page that you have -- has been part of
1 your opinion on this topic?
2 A. Yes, sir. In fact, the second bullet point is a reflection of the
3 past two exhibits that we've been discussing.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to 65 ter 1199A. This is an intercept. The
5 B/C/S is in B. This is from 16 July, at 1912 hours, and we have a
6 Basevic. Is that the same Basevic, in your view, that you've referred to
8 A. Yes, sir, it is.
9 Q. Okay. And he says:
10 "Well, the petrol's run out completely. Miki, I said to Miletic
11 today, when I was on the phone with him, like, to do with this request
12 that -- that Zvornik sent, and Sekovici."
13 "Zvornik is solved."
14 "I said I have no petrol, oil and --"
15 "Listen, Zvornik is solved."
16 "Well, I know, I saw ... You know, but the problem is what's going
17 on across Sekovici this way ..."
18 And they talk about, as we can read, something related to Sekovici
19 and 600 litres. Do you have any idea who Miki is in this conversation?
20 A. No, sir, I don't.
21 Q. How about the reference to Miletic?
22 A. Yes, sir, in the context, I believe, that the individual they're
23 referring to is General Miletic.
24 Q. Why?
25 A. The fact that Colonel Basevic -- or, I'm sorry, at that time Major
1 Basevic is calling -- as the Drina Corps technical services officer is
2 relaying the message up to the Main Staff that they're out of fuel with
3 respect to what they can provide to the brigades.
4 Q. And can you relate -- does this -- do you tie this in at all in
5 any way with this fuel situation regarding Popovic and Pilica that we
6 discussed earlier?
7 A. Yes, sir. Correspondent Y is reflecting that Zvornik is solved,
8 so in the context of what we've discussed earlier, my view is the fact
9 that whoever correspondent Y is is responding to the fact that the fuel
10 has been delivered to the Zvornik Brigade or that the Zvornik Brigade's
11 requirement for the use of fuel is completed.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
13 MR. HAYNES: The objection is rather late. That was a terrible
14 leading question, but it's been answered. But in the broader sense,
15 Mr. Butler's presence is entirely ancillary to this process.
16 I completely accept that he's entitled to express his view, his
17 credentials having been laid out, as to what the effect of my client is
18 when he departed with Tactical Group 1, and that's a matter about which I
19 will cross-examine him. But the rest of the examination for the last 20
20 minutes has barely involved a question of him and has merely involved
21 Mr. McCloskey reading out verbatim document after document after document
22 and inviting Mr. Butler to say whether there is a link between them, which
23 Mr. McCloskey seeks him to make. It involves not an ounce of expertise.
24 It is a form of Prosecution submission. That's all it is.
25 And I make the objection at this point, and I invite you to stop
1 it now. This is really just a Prosecution closing speech, saying, "This
2 document links to this document links to this document." It doesn't need
3 Mr. Butler to be here.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes.
5 Ms. Fauveau, and then you answer everyone. Yes.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I fully support what my colleague
7 just said.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon.
9 MR. BOURGON: Likewise, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: I join the objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I do, thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is practically the identical objection that
16 we've been hearing all along, I believe first in the motion that was filed
17 challenging Mr. Butler's expertise. Mr. Butler, I believe, is assisting
18 us to identify who people are, where units are, as he just did, the policy
19 of command as it relates to when Vinko Pandurevic came back, who would
20 have been in command of the Krajina unit, who would have been in command
21 of the situation where his officers are dealing with fuel. These are all
22 key military issues. Some are -- yes, they're simple when looked in
23 isolation, but they're not simple when looked at the massive amount of
24 documents and material and facts that can only be truly interpreted by one
25 with a military background, with a knowledge of the JNA and a knowledge of
1 the Zvornik Brigade.
2 This may appear simple, but it is rather complex, and the job of
3 the security officer and the intelligence officer is a difficult one, and
4 it is not something that is suggested by Defence, and we have specifically
5 asked Mr. Butler, over the years, to be our expert in this very difficult
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I confer with my colleagues, let me hear you
8 first, Mr. Haynes.
9 MR. HAYNES: Yes. I mean, I'm afraid Mr. McCloskey, in my
10 submission, misreads your decision. Your decision set out the ambit,
11 unlike in the Krstic case and the Blagojevic case, of Mr. Butler's
12 expertise. He was not to come before this Tribunal as, as it were, a
13 second counsel for the Prosecution. He was to come before this Tribunal
14 with an expertise which you identified. And I'll leave that point to one
16 The questions, other than the one which I concede he was perfectly
17 entitled to answer about, the effect of my client going and fighting in
18 Srebrenica, that he has been asked in the last 20 minutes have been so
19 trite that they have been an insult to all of our intelligences, and in
20 particular yours. To ask this man, "Who do you think the Popovic is," in
21 that intercept, and then to ask him again, "Who do you think the Popovic
22 is that is referred to in the duty officer's notebook," five minutes
23 later, is an insult to all our intelligences, and it's a device, really,
24 to make this submission to you through this witness.
25 You are not assisted by this, to use the phrase that has been
1 repeated in many of the judgements about the use of Prosecution
2 investigators as witnesses and so-called analyst experts, you really are
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Thank you, Mr. Haynes.
5 Mr. Bourgon.
6 MR. BOURGON: I'd just like to add one comment to this,
7 Mr. President, and the fact that this witness -- one of the things that
8 has been discussed before in the case law of this Tribunal is whether it
9 was possible for a witness to present summarising evidence. In this case,
10 it is not even summarising evidence, it is selective evidence and the
11 result of an investigation. This is what is wrong with it. It will make
12 your work difficult, and it will make our cross-examination twice as long.
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, perhaps Mr. Zivanovic would agree
17 with me that the name "Popovic" is one of the most common names in Bosnia,
18 and I don't ask that question over and over again to insult anyone. But
19 on a document that is so significant for Mr. Popovic, for the Prosecution,
20 for all of us here, I take the line of conservativeness and I ask
21 Mr. Butler, because he's the one that looks at these lists of all the
22 Popovics and their various jobs. And I don't know if the Defence of
23 another Popovic is going to be here or not, but that's why I ask those
25 Mr. Butler is uniquely able to tell this Court which officers from
1 this army could be possibly placed here.
2 And I must say this is about the eighth objection on this
3 identical point. You have carved out a few situations where you don't
4 want me asking questions. I believe I got your message on that, and I am
5 trying my best to do that. But asking basic questions about who are in an
6 intercept and the background and tying the details is what Mr. Butler has
7 been doing for four days. It's way too late in the game to suggest to any
8 attorney that's been up here doing just this for four days, for the fifth
9 time to make the same objection.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Perhaps without realising, you put several
13 issues on our plate to deal with.
14 We draw certain distinctions between some of the information that
15 is being sought from the witness and other. For example, we definitely
16 agree with the Defence objections, that questions like the last one that
17 you put to the witness, namely, comparing or contrasting the two documents
18 you referred him to, whether correspondent Y is responding to the fact
19 that the fuel has been delivered to the Zvornik Brigade and that the
20 Zvornik Brigade requirement for the use of fuel is completed, we don't
21 believe that that is the kind of question you should putting to the
22 witness. These are matters that can be deduced from the face of the
23 document itself, and you should restrict your questions to those instances
24 when it's not clear from the document itself, at least for us it shouldn't
25 and can't be clear, and that a clear picture can emerge only if there is
1 the expert opinion of the witness forthcoming.
2 Having said that, we then disagree completely with what has been
3 objected to by the Defence in relation to the identification of
4 individuals. Where it is clear from the document itself who the
5 individual is, I think you shouldn't -- we think you shouldn't put the
6 question. But this is one reason why the witness has been admitted as an
7 expert witness, because sometimes the identification of persons indicated
8 in a document by a military expert is perhaps the best way of helping us
9 identify those individuals.
10 So we don't look at certain questions as an insult to anybody's
11 intelligence. At times, they are useful. We'll stop you any time we
12 think that a question is uncalled for, unsolicited, or which does not fall
13 within the parameters of the expertise of the witness.
14 Otherwise, please try to avoid having the witness confirm what
15 appears on documents, which is clear for all of us to read and draw
16 conclusions from, without the need of any expertise.
17 I hope we made ourselves clear. Let's proceed.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 And that was absolutely my understanding of your previous rulings
20 as well, and I am -- I am trying to do that. It's -- and I will of course
22 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you think you require?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: It really depends on how many objections we get.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, but come on, I mean, it's been -- I've been
25 counting. We've had over an hour -- over 60 minutes of objections in the
1 space of one week, and that is not beyond what was to be expected. So
2 let's proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's very hard to tell, Mr. President. It reminds
4 me of the old joke --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are wasting more time. Let's proceed. Thank
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Okay, Mr. Butler, let's go to 65 ter 1195A. This is an intercept
9 from the CSB -- or, excuse me, by the CSB. It's a conversation from about
10 1615 hours on the 16th of a conversation between Main Staff duty officer
11 and General Mladic, and General Mladic was not audible.
12 Can you briefly describe what this is talking about?
13 A. This particular intercept is talking about the indications that
14 the Main Staff is receiving that Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic has taken
15 the action to effect a battlefield truce with the Muslims in the column
16 and has authorised them to proceed to Muslim territory.
17 Q. There's a mention of the president in here. How does that fit in,
18 and Karisik?
19 A. Well, sir, in the context of my earlier testimony about the fact
20 that the military is not the only reporting mechanism from these areas,
21 the police and the security services have their own reporting, it's a
22 reflection of the fact that while the military may not have mentioned
23 something, that the information pertaining to this battlefield truce is
24 possessed by the highest levels of the RS government.
25 Q. Okay. And his notation:
1 "I asked the duty officer to urgently connect me with him ..."
2 What's that a reference to? Or actually, as we look down it says:
3 "Now I'm waiting for them to call me because Pandurevic hasn't
4 called for the last four ..."?
5 A. Yes, sir, I mean they're looking for a -- they're looking for the
6 explanation of the brigade commander as to whether or not this particular
7 event has taken place, and if it has, why. They owe -- they owe the
8 president an answer.
9 Q. All right. And have you identified documents on the same subject
10 that help flush it out a bit more in your report?
11 A. Yes, sir, I have, and those are reflective of the interim combat
12 report for 16 July 1995 which details that situation.
13 Q. All right. And let's -- let's go to another document of the duty
14 officer note -- the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook, 65 ter number
15 377, page 30 in the English, B/C/S page 149, reminding ourselves that the
16 last intercept was at 1615 hours.
17 There's a notation here, if we could blow up the part --
18 particularly the second half:
19 "At 1620 hours, message from Zlatar that one officer from the
20 command was to go immediately to the commander and send a written report
21 on the current situation, the agreement and arrangements made with the
22 other side. Immediately sent to Mijatovic."
23 How does that relate to the previous intercept, if at all?
24 A. Yes, sir, I believe it corresponds. Again this is a reflection of
25 what activity is taking place in Zvornik on the basis of that prior
2 Q. And who is Mijatovic, in your view?
3 A. There's a Lieutenant Mijatovic who is a Zvornik Brigade officer. I
4 believe he may be duty officer this day or may be just an -- functioning
5 as an operations officer.
6 Q. Okay, then the next comment:
7 "Message from Zlatar that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic must go to
8 Vinko Pandurevic in the field at 1640 hours."
9 Is that related?
10 A. Yes, sir. Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, as a
11 senior-ranking Drina Corps officer who happens to be in the Zvornik
12 Brigade zone at that period, this is a reflection of now Zlatar, the Drina
13 Corps Command wants him personally to go to talk to Vinko Pandurevic.
14 Q. It says:
15 "Message through the 1st Battalion that Popovic must report to the
16 duty officer so he can be sent on a task by Zlatar."
17 Can you remind us where the zone of the 1st Battalion of the
18 Zvornik Brigade is?
19 A. Yes, sir. The 1st Battalion zone is the northernmost zone of the
20 Zvornik Infantry Brigade, and within that zone you have Pilica village and
21 you have the Branjevo Farm.
22 Q. All right. Let's go to 65 ter 1201A and 1201C. This is an
23 intercept of 16 July, Palma, Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic and
24 Rasic. Do you know who Rasic is?
25 A. Rasic is identified in the document as someone on the phone from
1 the Operations Centre. My memory has failed a little bit on that one, I
2 couldn't tell you off the bat whether he's actually a member of the Drina
3 Corps operations staff or not.
4 Q. Okay.
5 "Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was asked to be connected with General
6 Krstic at Zlatar, and he was not there. He asked to be connected with the
8 Now, we can read this, that it starts out with:
9 "Hello, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic speaking."
10 "Rasic here, can I help you?"
12 And Popovic says:
13 "I was just up there."
15 "I was with the boss personally."
17 "Here where I am -- you know where I am?"
18 "I know."
19 "Well, you got his interim report."
20 "All of it."
21 "It's just like he wrote it ... It was there on the spot" --
22 sorry, "I was there on the spot and saw for myself he had received some
23 numbers ..."
24 What, in your view, is that a reference to?
25 A. Well, sir, he's referring first to the interim report that Colonel
1 Pandurevic has written, and, second, he's noting, "I was with the boss,
2 personally," that he in fact spoke to Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic.
3 Q. And do you have a conclusion about, when he says "received
4 numbers," what that has to do with?
5 A. Yes, sir. I believe that in the context of what we're discussing,
6 Colonel -- Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is referring to the large number of
7 individuals in the column.
8 Q. All right. And how about the next part, the part that says:
9 "I'll come there tomorrow so tell the general ... I've finished
10 the job."
11 "You finished?"
12 "I finished everything."
14 What do you believe that's a reference to, if you can, without
16 A. In this -- in this context I believe what we're discussing now is
17 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic's involvement in the execution of prisoners.
18 Q. All right. Now, let's go -- let's go down --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you base that on?
20 THE WITNESS: It appears in the context of this sentence, where
21 you have:
22 "Well, that's not important, I will come there tomorrow, so tell
23 the general ..."
24 And then you have a blank space, and then you have:
25 "I finished the job."
1 You read the subsequent sentences:
2 "You finished?"
3 "I finished everything."
4 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, from what he is doing in the Zvornik
5 Brigade area, his past association with the job of the executions, he's
6 not involved with an operational job with respect to combat or assisting
7 Colonel Pandurevic or the Zvornik Brigade in combat. So when -- I take
8 that break, and in conjunction with the next couple of sentences, you
9 know, I believe that Colonel Popovic is talking about the job that he was
10 involved in.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. At 2116 hours, were the executions continuing, as far as the
13 evidence that you've reviewed reflecting up in Pilica?
14 A. My understanding of the state of the execution is by this point in
15 time the executions were all completed at the school facilities or at the
16 large-scale holding facilities.
17 Q. Okay. Then I want to continue on. Popovic mentions:
18 "I'll come there tomorrow and I'm sure that's all been taken care
19 of, you know."
21 "After I bring a transport from there."
23 "Well, in general, there weren't any major problems. But up
24 there, there were horrible problems, and that thing the commander sent was
25 just the right thing."
1 What do you think he's talking about there?
2 A. In this context, and I've commented on this particular intercept
3 before, first in the Krstic case, and again I've changed my opinion of
4 what that particular phrase is, based on prior information from, I guess
5 in this case, it's Protected Witness 168, that what they're talking about
6 in this particular context, as to the "up there," refers to the situation
7 on the ground at Baljkovica, where the column has passed through and where
8 the Serbs -- the Bosnian Serb Army in that area has suffered a large
9 number of casualties.
10 Q. Okay, and we'll get into that change of view --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but one moment, because that doesn't explain
12 the phrase from that sentence, "and that thing the commander sent."
13 THE WITNESS: The phrase "what the commander sent," and again I go
14 over this in my written report, is that in that particular context, we're
15 talking about the series of military reinforcements that the commander or,
16 by extension, the Main Staff has been sending in to the zone of the
17 Zvornik Brigade. That thing that the commander sent, I interpret to be
18 the various military units that have come up from Bratunac, that have come
19 from the Krajina Corps, that have come from other locations, as well as
20 police units that have been detailed in, are the requisite military
21 reinforcements that Colonel Pandurevic needed in an attempt to stabilise
22 the lines.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
24 Q. Then as we go on, it talks about:
25 "Just the thing ... Horrible ... It was horrible."
1 Again, is that a reference -- what's that a reference to, in your
3 A. I believe that's a reflection of the conflict with the column and
4 the subsequent Serbian casualties with it.
5 Q. Which were roughly how many?
6 A. If I recall the number of the deaths from the various battalions
7 that are attributed to combat on that day, I believe the number is in
8 excess of 40 casualties or 40 deaths that day, and I think I've seen
9 numbers as high as 120 wounded with respect to combat in that particular
10 location. A very intensive combat there.
11 Q. And relative to your knowledge of the rest of the war, how -- you
12 know, how intensive or perhaps -- of course in the idea of the VRS, how
13 horrible was that and compared to other -- other sorts of combat
15 A. Well, I may stand to be corrected on this, because there may have
16 been events elsewhere, but I'm not aware of a single incident where the
17 VRS and in particular one unit of brigade size had 40 combat deaths in
18 such a short amount of time, in less than a 24-hour period. So this is an
19 issue of significant gravity for them.
20 Q. And did you incorporate that knowledge into your viewpoint that
21 you've just told the Court?
22 A. Yes, sir. In fact, not -- not even necessarily my knowledge, but
23 in the subsequent 18 July report that Colonel Pandurevic sends to the
24 Drina Corps, where he outlines all of these very issues as well.
25 Q. Okay, let me go on. Then after that, Rasic says:
1 "Listen, Vujadin."
3 "Tell me, did anything arrive there now from Vidoje Blagojevic?"
4 "From Vidoje?
6 "Yes. You mean manpower?"
7 He says: "Yes, yes. Did anything arrive? Something was supposed
8 to arrive."
9 "Yes, it arrived. It's up there, it's up there, but it didn't
10 arrive on time and it wasn't brought in on time. And the others who did
11 arrive -- did arrive, but they were late, and so they weren't brought in
12 on time, and that's why the commander who was there had problems."
13 "When exactly did Blagojevic's men arrive?"
14 Okay. You've mentioned just now that you had changed your
15 analysis from the Krstic trial on this previous part of the intercept.
16 Does that include the part that I just read?
17 A. Yes, sir, it does.
18 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what your first -- your Krstic analysis of
19 this section was? And let's -- we best go, well, line for line.
20 A. As I had indicated before on the issue of units, during the
21 initial stages of the Krstic trial, the information that we had at hand --
22 that I had at hand reflected the use of members of the Bratunac Brigade or
23 men from Bratunac with respect to their use in a crime base, crime scene;
24 in fact, Branjevo.
25 Q. Can you remind us what witness provided that information?
1 A. That witness, I believe, was Drazen Erdemovic, sir.
2 Q. Okay. In the Krstic case?
3 A. Yes. Subsequently as the investigation continued to work on and
4 additional material came forward, I came to recognise that what we were in
5 fact discussing was not an issue of the sending of Colonel Blagojevic's
6 people to the Branjevo execution site, but in fact the sending of a
7 company that had been requested from the Bratunac Brigade as part of the
8 military reinforcements.
9 Q. And did you set out that view to the Appellate Chamber?
10 A. Yes, sir, I did. Once I made that determination that I had
11 misinterpreted this particular passage or had attributed initially an
12 erroneous interpretation to it, I did in fact make that known and I did
13 testify to that extent for the Krstic Appellate Chamber.
14 Q. All right. Let's go to --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more? We want to know whether you are
16 going to finish today. You need to finish today, in fact.
17 [Technical difficulties]
18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madame Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know that we're all
22 very tired, but I would like, nevertheless, to draw your attention to page
23 72, line 18 to 24 of the transcript. The witness has just said that he
24 changed his mind regarding -- or on the basis of the information provided
25 by PW-168. Hereby, the witness admits and acknowledges the way he
1 proceeded to reach his conclusions.
2 Since his testimony is not based on his technical knowledge but on
3 specific information he derived from the investigation conducted by the
4 Prosecution, I would like you to decide that this witness should not be
5 treated as an expert witness, but as a fact witness, as an investigator
6 from the OTP.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madame Fauveau.
8 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I, of course, have faith that the Chamber will
10 treat this witness however you see fit, as according to your prior
11 rulings, but I think it's very fair for Mr. Butler to talk to an officer
12 (redacted) and get his perspective on how horrible it was to see the
13 casualties that they had at Baljkovica to help him interpret documents.
14 Here, it was absolutely essential. And I think it's absolutely fair.
15 You can imagine how much affect it had on the case of General
16 Krstic, perhaps 10 years' worth, so this is the kind of information that's
17 absolutely critical for this Court to see.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
19 Mr. Bourgon.
20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 I would just like to support the information provided by my
22 colleague, but also to highlight the fact that this is -- the point that
23 she's making is not what Mr. McCloskey responded to right away. The issue
24 is that all of the testimony of this witness is based on investigative
25 work, investigative work which is one-sided and which makes him not an
1 expert but a fact witness, as an investigator, and that his testimony
2 should be treated in this respect.
3 Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't you both think that this can eventually form
5 part -- take the form of a submission?
6 MR. BOURGON: Indeed it will, Mr. President, and we will also be
7 raising it in cross-examination, but my colleague decided to raise it at
8 this time because we have then made a number of objections and it is our
9 feeling that my colleague from the Prosecution is not abiding by the
10 rulings of the Trial Chamber with respect to the questions that he can and
11 cannot ask.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 Mr. Zivanovic.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would join to this objection and to add that
16 Mr. Butler did not spoke just with the (redacted), that this is the
17 Witness 168, (redacted), and it is
18 not mentioned by Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: We join.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Our position, common position, unanimous, in fact,
23 is as follows:
24 We are professional Judges, as we keep repeating here, and we are
25 not professional Judges with inverted commas, we are professional Judges,
1 and we have taken note of your submission, Madame Fauveau, and also take
2 notice of the other Defence counsel that joined with your submission.
3 We feel we have no problem at all in identifying when the witness
4 is testifying as a military expert and when maybe he has gone beyond his
5 expertise evidence and testified on other issues.
6 We have given direction, in the course of these five days, to the
7 Prosecution, given direction as to what kind of questions ought and ought
8 not to be put, and that was in the presence of the witness himself. At
9 the end of the day, we have no doubt at all in our mind that we'll be able
10 to make our own assessment.
11 Having said that, I think we can bring the witness back in.
12 And are you going to finish, Mr. McCloskey? I see that the US
13 representative is no longer here.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, I have not spoken to her. I hope to
15 finish. I've cut quite a bit.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: But, again, I hate to be mis-trustworthy on this
18 issue, but most of the big issues, I think, we're -- or the trickier
19 issues, we're through.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, she is here.
22 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Could we go to 1202C and D, 65 ter number. It should be 36 in
25 your tab, Mr. Butler, and we're still on that last issue, one last area,
1 one last intercept related to it.
2 Q. Okay. In this short intercept, we actually see a reference to --
3 it's dated, actually -- sorry, it's timed the same time as the previous
4 intercept. If we can recall in the previous intercept -- then don't
5 broadcast again. I see the problem Mr. Bourgon had spotted earlier. Just
6 to remind us that in the previous intercept, they're asking us when
7 Blagojevic's men got back, and R said:
8 "Okay. Find out exactly and call me back."
9 And he says:
10 "I will."
11 And now we see a reference to Vidoje Blagojevic at 1705 hours, 30
12 men came from Doboj and 1725 hours, 100 men came from Banja Luka.
13 Now, in the testimony in Krstic, what time did Drazen Erdemovic
14 say the men from Bratunac arrived, if you can recall?
15 A. It would be approximately 1300 hours on 16 July 1995.
16 Q. Okay. And did this -- did you -- were you aware of this intercept
17 when you'd made your first interpretation of the previous intercept?
18 A. No, sir, I was not. I don't recall being aware of this
19 intercept. The intercept project remained a work in process while we were
20 doing the actual trial.
21 Q. Did this intercept play any role in your changing your mind and
22 deciding that the men that arrived late were not from Blagojevic, as you'd
23 talked about earlier?
24 A. Yes, sir, it did.
25 Q. Okay. Let's go to 1204A and C. We're still on 16 July. We're
1 now getting later. It's 2233 hours. We have X is Strbic. Let's go to
2 B/C/S page 4, please.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: While we're doing that, just for your information,
4 we are redacting part of your last latest intervention, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 You'll find out why.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. And in this intercept, we see:
8 "Hello, Palma. Put Drago Nikolic or Strbic on the line."
9 Do you have an opinion who this Strbic is?
10 A. Yes, sir, I do.
11 Q. Who?
12 A. There are two individuals. One is Lieutenant Strbic who is a
13 member of the rear services staff of the Zvornik Brigade, and one is a
14 Lieutenant Milorad Trbic, who is the assistant security officer for the
15 Zvornik Brigade. Given the context of the conversation and the fact that
16 he's asked for Drago Nikolic first, and because we have other correlating
17 information that Lieutenant Trbic is the duty officer on this day, I
18 believe that the individual here is Lieutenant Trbic, not Strbic.
19 Q. All right. And down in the middle of this, it says -- the
20 question from X to who you say is Trbic:
21 "Was Popovic over at your place?"
22 And Trbic says:
23 "Yes. He was here and gone."
24 "Where did he go?"
25 I think we can read the rest of that ourselves, and I won't ask
1 any questions about that.
2 Now, we're going to be skipping some things, Mr. Butler, so I'll
3 try to keep up with you on the tabs.
4 Okay, let's go to 1218A and 1218B, another intercept. Now we've
5 switched to 17 July --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
7 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 I fail to see -- the last intercept that we went through, there
9 was an identification of maybe someone called "Strbic" who might be
10 called "Trbic," but there were no questions on the intercept, and I don't
11 see why this intercept was used. I waited until to see the next one, to
12 see if there was a correlation between the two, but my colleague should
13 not bring up intercepts just to identify a name, without telling us
14 what -- where it comes in the analysis made by the witness.
15 Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm trying to sort out what I think you want
18 analysis on and what I think you don't want analysis on. I looked at
19 that. It was pretty clear that these guys were looking for Popovic, and
20 so I left it sit. And that's what I did. But I needed to bring out who
21 that was, who the duty officer was, so you can all evaluate this later.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, we see no problem, Mr. McCloskey. Go
23 ahead, please.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
25 Q. 1218A and 1218B, on the 17th of July --
1 A. Do you have a tab number for me, sir?
2 Q. Sorry, that's tab 45. All right, now, if we look at this, it's
3 basically a general is looking for Popovic and wants him to report to the
4 IKM. What do you -- what can you make, if anything, of this?
5 A. Sir, at this juncture General Krstic is not at the main command
6 post, he is at the forward command post. I believe it's located in the
7 town or village of Krivace, and this is an intercept reflecting the fact
8 that Zlatar 1, which is often referred to -- you know, Zlatar 1 personally
9 is the code name that's given to the commander of a various unit. Zlatar
10 01 is often referred to as the corps commander. Palma 01 will be
11 personally the commander of the brat -- sorry, the Zvornik Brigade. So in
12 this context where it says who wants to know, Zlatar 01, I mean, we're
13 talking directly about General Krstic.
14 Q. Okay. And we see here that he's asking Golic to find him and have
15 him report, so let's go to the next intercept, 1219A and B. It's a 17
16 July intercept, and it's 1244 hours, two minutes later. It's between X
17 and Trbic, and Trbic says:
18 "Yes, can I help you?"
19 "Tell me, is Pop there?"
21 "Do you know where he is?"
22 "Well, he went to that -- he went towards that task."
23 X says:
24 "North of you?"
1 Briefly, what do you make of that?
2 A. Within the context of what was happening in the Zvornik Brigade at
3 the time, the "task north" doesn't refer to military activity, it refers
4 to the work continuing to bury the bodies of those who had been executed
5 at the Branjevo Farm. The other military documents and records we have
6 reflect that the actual installation of the mass grave there didn't take
7 place on the 16th, at the time they were executed, it in fact occurred the
8 next day, on the 17th.
9 Q. All right. Now, it goes on to say:
10 "Get in touch with him, please."
11 And then Trbic says:
12 "But it's very hard for me to do that."
13 X says:
14 "I know it is, Drago told me, but don't think of it that way."
15 "Please try to get in touch with him."
16 Any idea who X is in that context?
17 A. I can make an educated guess who it is, based on the context, but
18 I don't have a distinct identity.
19 Q. Oh, let's not guess. Let's go to the next one, 1220A and 1220B.
20 And this is -- again, it's a few minutes later, and it says:
22 Hey, Trbic!"
1 "It's changed again."
3 "You get in touch with him, let him finish that work."
5 "So let him finish that work that he's doing and have him report
6 immediately here at Golac's."
7 Do you know what "Golac's" is?
8 A. Yes, sir, I believe in this context we're talking to a Golac,
9 which would identify the location that X is at at the Drina Corps.
10 Q. All right. Okay, let's go to the next conversation, 17 July,
11 1224A, 1224C. At 1622 hours now, and it's Popovic and Y, and Popovic
13 "Hello, it's Popovic ... Boss ... Everything's okay, that job is
14 done ... Everything's okay ... Everything's been brought to an end, no
15 problems ... I am here at the base ... Can I just take a little break,
16 take a little break, take a shower, and then I'll think again later ...
17 Basically, that all gets an A ... An A ... The grade is an A.
18 Everything's okay ... That's it, bye, take care."
19 When he says, "I'm at the base," do you have a conclusion where
20 that is?
21 A. Yes, sir. I take that to be at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters.
22 Q. And when he says, "Hello, it's Popovic, boss," do you have a view
23 who that would be?
24 A. Yes, sir. Again, I take that it's Popovic's boss, which would be
25 General Major Krstic, the commander of the Drina Corps.
1 Q. And why do you say that?
2 A. In part, because of prior intercepts which relate to the fact that
3 the boss or Zlatar 01 is looking for a report from Popovic, in part just
4 because the tone of the conversation appears to be differential to a
6 Q. All right. Let's go to the next intercept, which is 1234A and C.
7 Actually, I think that's self-explanatory, so let's skip it.
8 Let's go to 65 ter 336, and this is a 19 July 1995 Command of the
9 Zvornik Brigade. It's a regular combat report. And do you relate this to
10 your investigation and your narration -- your narrative study?
11 A. Yes, sir, I do.
12 Q. Briefly, how so?
13 A. First, going back to paragraph 2, it does in fact identify which
14 company of the Krajina Corps, in this case out of the 16th Krajina
15 Brigade, came from the Krajina Corps to the Zvornik Brigade area. It also
16 identifies other units that were from outside the brigade zone that have
17 now gone to the Zvornik Brigade. So, I mean, I use that one as a way of
18 keeping track of which particular units have been sent from various other
19 areas into the zone of the Zvornik Brigade to be engaged in combat
21 Q. Okay. And anything about the rest of that?
22 A. Yes, sir. It also reflects one comment:
23 "During the search operation, two Muslim soldiers were killed and
24 13 were eliminated."
25 In context with the known crime base, this particular notation
1 reflects a very close parallel to the actual crime that occurred with
2 respect to what is known as the Nezuk execution.
3 Q. And I think -- let me just correct your reading of that, "two
4 Muslim soldiers were captured"--
5 A. I'm sorry.
6 Q. -- "and 13 eliminated."
7 A. I apologise.
8 Q. All right. Let's go to --
9 MR. HAYNES: I wonder if Mr. Butler ought to be invited to say
10 whether he reconsiders that assessment, now he's re-read the document.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes.
12 Mr. Butler, do you wish to add anything, having --
13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, just a simple reading error on my part.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 If we could go to 65 ter 405. We're now, I think, going back in
18 time briefly.
19 Q. But can you just tell us why you've cited us to this document?
20 A. Again, part of the analytical process of corroborating which units
21 have come in and where they have gone, this particular document is just
22 another reflection of which particular unit of the 16th Krajina Motorised
23 Brigade has been sent to the zone of the Zvornik Brigade.
24 Q. All right. Let's go to your tab 54, 65 ter 340, and this is an
25 interim combat report from the Zvornik Brigade in the name of Commander
1 Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic. And want to refer you to the third
2 paragraph, as I think people can read the context of that from what's on
4 "We request from the Corps Command that the Exchange Commission
5 start work as soon as possible. We also require instructions as what to
6 do with the prisoners, where to put them, and to whom we should hand them
8 Now, you have made reference to this before. What is your
9 analysis of that -- of that statement?
10 A. Yes, sir. While in a number of combat reports the issue of small
11 numbers of prisoners of war have been reported up the chain of command,
12 this is the first piece of -- or first document that I am aware of, in the
13 context of the time, where somebody within not only the Zvornik Brigade
14 but the Drina Corps proper is requesting guidance with respect to what
15 about prisoners who we might want to exchange, and this is already 22 July
17 Q. And do you have an opinion on whether a brigade commander normally
18 needs to ask about whether or not prisoners -- what to do with prisoners?
19 A. The material with respect to the Zvornik Brigade, and many of
20 these have been exhibits that we've discussed with respect to the Zvornik
21 Brigade, Bratunac Brigade, Drina Corps, reflect prior policies or reflect
22 past policies pertaining to the procedures of handling prisoners of war
23 and everything of that nature. So, in theory, he shouldn't have had to
24 ask for specific guidance. It should have been continuing as before.
25 Q. All right. Now, we'll try to save some time here. Have you
1 reviewed two documents from the Main Staff, one is 65 ter 41, just for the
2 record, and one is 42. They are in your tabs 55 and 56, relating to five
3 tonnes of diesel coming to the Zvornik Brigade.
4 A. Yes, sir, I have.
5 Q. And what do you -- what's your view about the purpose of that?
6 A. That fuel dispersed -- that fuel dispersal and the fact -- who
7 it's under the control of is reflective of the fact that that fuel is to
8 be used for what is known investigatively as the operation to dig up the
9 primary graves of the mass executions in the Zvornik Brigade and to then
10 remove the remains to secondary locations. At this point in time, the
11 International Community is already well aware of the fact that large
12 executions have occurred, there's been photographic evidence of that
13 brought before the United Nations, so this represents the effort and the
14 fuel used in order to dig up those remains and remove them to what are
15 commonly referred to as the secondary graves.
16 Q. Okay. Let's go to 65 ter 836. This is taking us to a Bratunac
17 Brigade report. It's entitled: "Report on meetings of the 1st Bratunac
18 Light Infantry Brigade." I would refer you, that should be in your tab
19 57, to English page 11, B/C/S page 24.
20 And under a note: "The working meeting of the commander, with
21 commander staff and battalion commanders," 16 October 1995,
22 under "Nikolic" there's a comment:
23 "We are currently engaged in tasks issued by the Army of Republika
24 Srpska General Staff."
25 It probably says "Glavnica," "sanitation," which in the original
1 is in parentheses "asanacija."
2 First of all, who do you think Nikolic is and secondly, what do
3 you think this is a reference to, this "asanacija"?
4 A. First part of the question, the Nikolic in question is Captain
5 First Class Momir Nikolic, the chief of security for the Bratunac
7 The second part of the question, I believe this is also related to
8 activities on the digging up of the primary graves in the zone of the
9 Bratunac Brigade and the taking of the remains in those primary graves to
10 what are known as the secondary sites.
11 Q. All right. Now, if you could skip ahead to 72, 65 ter 1880,
12 and --
13 A. Which tab would that be for me, sir?
14 Q. 72, yeah, 72.
15 A. I don't have a tab 72. I'll have to look at it off the screen.
16 That's all right.
17 Q. It will be there. And I'll ask you, while we're waiting: Did
18 your report include a brief section on some prisoners that were taken in
19 Milici, treated in the Milici Hospital, and sent up towards Zvornik? And
20 we don't need any details on that, but did your report include that?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. And looking at this exhibit, 65 ter 1880, was that something that
23 you discussed in relation to those patients?
24 A. Yes, sir, I did.
25 Q. And in looking at -- near the bottom of it, we see a notation:
1 "18 wounded enemy soldiers," or "18 wounded enemy have undergone
2 surgery and have been transferred to the hospital in Zvornik on the orders
3 of the Main Staff."
4 Do you relate this particular document with those Milici patients
5 that you talked about in your report?
6 A. Yes, sir, I do.
7 Q. All right. Let's go to 65 ter 1499. This is a map, and I won't
8 spend very much time on it. This is the last exhibit, 65 ter -- actually,
9 we did find the exhibit that we had messed up a bit before, 65 ter, it's
10 now 304. It's that TAM 75 truck from the Petkovci Battalion. And if we
11 could just hit that and we'll be able to finish on time, I'm sure.
12 I was hoping we would -- well, this is fine.
13 Mr. Butler, is this map something that you've had a chance to
15 A. Yes, sir, I have.
16 Q. And do you know what collection it came from?
17 A. I understand it came from the Drina Corps collection.
18 Q. And can you -- in your review of these maps, is this -- can you
19 tell, is this got any -- is it an operational map, or what is it?
20 A. It appears to be, to some respect, an operational map. There are
21 notations on it pertaining to the Srebrenica enclave. The lines that are
22 outlined in yellow are -- reflect movements of the Bratunac Brigade.
23 Looking where these arrows are and everything else, they do not reflect
24 the axes of advances for the actual operation Krivaja 1995. What they
25 reflect are these movements of at least the Bratunac Brigade sweep
1 operation-wise in the post-combat phase, after -- after 12 July, 13 July,
3 Q. All right. Aside from those dates that we see that reflect the
4 Srebrenica operation and the Zepa operation, were you able to date this
5 map at all?
6 A. Again, from that point, I mean, the notations on the Srebrenica
7 side appear to be dated, like I said, 12 or 13 July. Even though it's
8 dated 12, the actual marks on the graphic showing where units are
9 deploying is indicative of that date. And I believe further down,
10 scrolling on the map, there's another date listing as well.
11 Q. But aside from those dates, any way for you to determine when this
12 map was actually created?
13 A. It may very well be that there are two separate times that this
14 map was annotated. It could also have been part of it was done before,
15 part of it was done after. There's another date reflection that notes 27
16 July 1995.
17 Q. All right. And if we could go to the Exhibit 304, the TAM -- the
18 TAM truck. You've already discussed I believe it was a TAM 80. Do you
19 recall, Mr. Butler, at this point whether you had discussed a TAM 75 from
20 the same unit in your report?
21 A. I can't recall if it was another TAM 75 or a TAM 80, but I am
22 aware that there were two identified vehicles or trucks from the 6th
23 Battalion that were noted to have been making these trips back and forth.
24 Q. All right. If we could go to page 2 on both of those, please.
25 And I think we can blow up the B/C/S version, especially in the area of 15
2 Do you see your reference that -- or what you referenced in your
4 A. Yes, sir, I do.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you, Mr. Butler.
6 I have no further questions, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
8 Next week we'll have -- we'll start with the cross-examinations,
9 and so your presence, I think, will be required. I thank you for having
10 been with us today.
11 Mr. Bourgon -- I think the witness can leave the courtroom. We'll
12 see you again on Monday morning, Mr. Butler. Have a nice weekend.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, thank you.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon.
16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 I would just like to take this opportunity to inform the Trial
18 Chamber that the Defence counsel for the various accused in this case,
19 we've already met a couple of times to try and discuss who would take what
20 part of the testimony of the witness with respect to cross-examination to
21 avoid any overlap, so we will -- again, we are planning to meet this
22 weekend to further establish our respective positions.
23 However, I wish to say that as far as I'm concerned, my
24 estimate -- my initial estimate of four hours is likely to be drawn out to
25 more rather than less, based on the nature of the testimony of the
2 Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We avoided asking you for a revised
4 estimate precisely because it may be appropriate to allow you the weekend
5 to think about the witness's testimony and to regulate yourselves
6 accordingly, but we'll talk about it on Monday.
7 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I would just simply say that the Prosecution
9 objects to over two weeks of cross-examination.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 So have a nice weekend. We'll meet again on Monday morning.
12 Thank you.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of
15 January, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.