1 Friday, June 6 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Good morning, Madam Registrar and
7 everybody, all the accused are here. I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes,
8 Mr. Bourgon, that's it.
9 And Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer who are
10 present. All right.
11 We can -- Mr. Thayer -- good morning to you, Mr. Lazic.
12 WITNESS: MILENKO LAZIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And good day as well.
16 Mr. Thayer, good morning to you. You may proceed and conclude
17 and we'll pick it up from there.
18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you and
19 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]
21 Q. Colonel, good morning.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. I just have one or two final questions for you. The first
24 concerns a document which we looked at yesterday from the Drina Corps
25 command to the command of the Uzice Corps. Do you remember that
2 A. No, I don't remember that document. I mean, I remember from
3 yesterday what I saw then, but otherwise from before in practice I didn't
4 see it.
5 Q. Okay. That's all I was asking about. The Presiding Judge had a
6 question about a document or an order number that was referred to in that
7 document. Do you remember that question from His Honour, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Last night I located that document. If we could just show
10 it on e-court and I just wanted to follow-up and see if you have any
11 recollection about this document. I have a hard copy here if that's
12 easier, but we should have it on e-court momentarily. And that's 3385.
13 A. I would like to have a hard copy if possible, the paper version.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Usher, if you could assist.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen the document now.
16 MR. THAYER:
17 Q. Okay. We see that it's a communication from the Uzice Corps
18 command to the --
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: It is now okay. All right. Sorry.
21 MR. THAYER:
22 Q. We can see from the document, Colonel, that it is dated
23 25 January 1993
24 command, references various axes that the Uzice Corps has been involved
25 in. And in paragraph 3 refers to establishing cooperation and then
1 paragraph 4 refers to exchanging information. Does this refresh your
2 recollection at all as to cooperation between these two corps during the
3 operations in 1993?
4 A. At the time I was in the Main Staff - and I don't know about this
5 communication along the Drina Corps-Uzice Corps line, I've never seen
6 this document before and I didn't know about this form of communication.
7 Q. Let me just ask you this: In your experience in the Main Staff
8 and as a corps commander, would this type of communication between a
9 corps in Serbia
10 typically been communicated or made known to the Main Staff of the VRS?
11 A. As a rule, this type of communication should have gone through
12 the Main
13 different corps. That's in my opinion. So what they should have done is
14 to inform the Main Staff too. I don't know if the Main Staff was indeed
15 informed or not.
16 Q. And, sir, what is your recollection with respect to cooperation
17 between these two corps during the Krivaja 95 operation?
18 A. I don't know that there was any cooperation during that period of
19 time, during the Drina Corps, that is, and the Uzice Corps. I don't
20 think there was in fact, no cooperation.
21 Q. Now, Colonel, during May and June of 1995, how many times do you
22 recall standing in for the Drina Corps commander?
23 A. Not once. I don't think I did that once on behalf of the
24 Drina Corps commander.
25 Q. Okay. Well, let's just look at one last document and this is
1 65 ter 3361, please. Just take a moment and take your time to read the
2 document and acquaint yourself with it, please.
3 A. Could you move it down a bit, please. Could you move it down a
4 bit further, please. More, please.
5 Q. If you're done reading paragraph 3, we'll go to the next page,
7 A. I have read it.
8 Q. Okay. If we look at the last lines on the lower left, what does
9 that say there, sir?
10 A. It says: "Standing in for the commander, Colonel Milenko Lazic."
11 Q. And if we could go back to the first page of this document we see
12 that it's dated 8 June of 1995 and it references a Main Staff order
13 03/4-1165, dated two days prior, the 6th of June. And in the order
14 section it refers to getting together Drina Corps units to form a
15 battalion and various brigades are given tasks further down, including
16 the Zvornik Brigade, if we look at paragraph 2.1.
17 A. Yes, I see.
18 Q. Do you recall issuing this order as standing in for the commander
19 of the Drina Corps in June -- early June of 1995, Colonel?
20 A. I can't really remember now precisely, but I have to tell you
21 that standing in for the commander, if somebody's going to do that you
22 need an order and this was probably a temporary absence on behalf of the
23 commander and the order had some sort of urgency, so --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As a matter of principle, I believe that it is
1 fair for the -- toward the witness to show him whole document, not to ask
2 him whether he signed it and he hasn't opportunity to see all document.
3 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we spent a couple minutes looking at
4 the document. I don't understand the objection.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not a long document and it was on the screen.
6 I could see it myself in his language.
7 So let's proceed.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. Sir, if you would, you were saying that -- I'll just quote the
10 beginning portion of your answer, you said: "I can't really remember now
11 precisely, but I have to tell you that standing in for the commander, if
12 somebody's going to do that you need an order and this was probably a
13 temporary absence on behalf of the commander and the order had some sort
14 of urgency ..."
15 My question to you then, sir, is: Was it the case in your
16 experience in the Drina Corps command that if there were a temporary
17 absence of the commander or the Chief of Staff, would you on those
18 occasions be delegated or be temporarily standing in if for just that
19 limited occasion?
20 A. Well, obviously there was no person who was more senior in the
21 command than me, so I was expected to sign it because the document was
23 Q. Well, my question to you, sir, is: In your prior answer you
24 suggested that as in the case earlier on in the spring of 1995 when there
25 was a formal appointment that you were to assume the role of standing in
1 for General Krstic because of his extended medical leave, as opposed to
2 that situation where you had a formal order because everybody knew he was
3 going to be unable to carry out his duties for that period of time; as I
4 understand what you're saying, in some limited circumstances, an
5 emergency or where the commander or Chief of Staff for some reason is
6 temporarily absent, on those occasions you did stand in for the commander
7 or the Chief of Staff. Is that correct?
8 A. Well, that was the customary practice.
9 Q. And you didn't need any formal order to do that because it was of
10 such a temporary nature, just to make it clear?
11 A. They were just solutions for urgent cases, otherwise I didn't
12 have the right to issue orders or anything similar in practice as a
13 general rule.
14 Q. Colonel, I thank you. I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
16 Now, Mr. Popovic -- Mr. Zivanovic, redirect?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you require, how much time?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have some videos to play, and I believe that it
20 will require --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, go ahead, go ahead.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lazic.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. I'm going to limit my cross-examination to just one portion of
1 the questions put to you by my colleague Mr. Thayer, and they relate to
2 document 3373. So could we have that document put up on e-court, please.
3 It's the order of the 25th of January -- well, it's not an order. It's a
4 document of the 25th of January, 1993, and you explained it to us
5 yesterday and said that something had to be done to protect the civilian
6 population and that this is a document referring to the protection of the
7 civilian population in fact.
8 Now, I'm going to show you a video and I'm just going to ask
9 you - and I'd like to remind you of -- well, take a look at the video and
10 I'll ask you a question after that.
11 [Videotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Here we are at the bridge of
13 Skelani and here the street of Bajina Basta, civilians died 16th, 17th,
14 that is the 16th of January ..."
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see anything.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we have to run it again, please, if you don't
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the voice is
19 inaudible and we're reading from the text provided to us.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I appreciate that.
21 [Videotape played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "As far as we heard here in
23 Bajina Basta, civilians were killed on the 16th -- 17th, that is, 16th,
24 16th of January.
25 "Where is the hospital?
1 "There behind the van.
2 "It started on the 16th at 4.30 in the morning. Suddenly they
3 had distributed their forces throughout the whole range, roughly 16 to 17
4 kilometres, maybe 700 fighters strong.
5 "On which line was that?
6 "It was on the line all the way up to the hydro-electric
7 power-plant, the lake and the dam, the way up to Crvice. On the way up
8 there we lost many people. They even killed children as people came out
9 of their houses. They killed without any mercy. Then our forces went
10 into action straight away, there was no panic, besides the civilian
11 population who also in the attempt to get away were killed and the
12 results are clearly visible.
13 "Is there any data about how many Serbs died, mainly civilians,
14 and then how many soldiers?
15 "Around 15 soldiers lost their lives, while the rest were
16 civilians. There are still some people listed as missing, not a large
17 number, but around 50 victims in total.
18 "And how many died on their side?
19 "Well, we intercepted them and they lost 150 to 200 men
21 "So it was a massive attack?
22 "Yes, of course.
23 "Which of the villages there?
24 "The villages are Kusici, Visocnik, Drvnik, Malta
25 that part there Kalimanici, a part of that, they stormed into the whole
1 of Kalimanici. Eight of the Ustashas remained. Arapovici, that is where
2 we had most of the victims. Well, it's presumed that around 17 people
3 lost their lives, not only fighters.
4 "Okay. What is your name?
5 "My name is Maksimovic, Vladimir, nickname Buco.
6 "In Bajina Basta Dr. Milos Nincic will explain to us how they
7 were organized when they received the wounded and injured in the massacre
8 in Skelani which happened on that particular day.
9 "Since the whole of the previous year we were under imminent
10 danger of war because of the aggression of the Muslim forces against the
11 territory of the autonomous Republika Srpska and on the territory of our
12 municipality of Skelani, in a way we did enforce certain measures of
13 readiness, duty shifts, so as to be able at any given moment to respond
14 to" --
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, we can stop here, but I intended to
16 show --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but what's the big idea? At the end of the
18 day I think you can put the question that I am and my colleagues are
19 anticipating anything.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: All right.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lazic, Mr. Lazic, the doctor gave the exact
22 date when the incident took place and that was the 16th of January, 1993
23 but the year wasn't stated on the video. All it said was the date,
24 January the 16th. Now, what I wanted to ask you is this: Do you perhaps
25 remember this particular incident that took place nine days before your
1 act came into being?
2 A. Yes, I do remember. The situation was very unpleasant and
3 Bajina Basta was under threat. On the bridge, actually, from Bajina
4 Basta to Skelani some children were even killed. I heard about that. I
5 knew about that in general terms, but I did not know that the
6 Uzice Corps, which is logical, had to intervene. I didn't know that. I
7 didn't know how far the Uzice Corps had to intervene and what it did.
8 Q. Just tell me this, please. Do you happen to know, when you say
9 that the Uzice Corps had to intervene, can you explain why, why did it
10 have to intervene?
11 A. Well, I said that the action going on in the Skelani region
12 flowed over across the Drina River
13 as well. There was shooting on the territory of Serbia
14 Q. I'm going to show you another brief excerpt from the same video,
15 and it is 8 --
16 [Videotape played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Here we are at the bridge in
18 Skelani --
19 "The artillery and mortars, the wounded on this side -- there
20 weren't any wounded on this side of the Drina River but
21 Radojke Milovanovic, let's hear her story."
22 Could counsel give us a reference, please, for the interpreters
23 to be able to find the section?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, the interpreters are asking for a
25 reference so that they can follow and translate.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is -- it is toward the end of the video. It
2 is sixth paragraph on the third -- on the third page of the video -- on
3 the second page -- on the third page of the -- on the third page they
4 have -- they provided with the text of this video.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
6 JUDGE KWON: The problem is they can't find the relevant passage.
7 How does it begin to read?
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: "The media objectively stated the jihad warriors
9 were targeting the" --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you, we have found it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: If necessary, we can start from the beginning.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I don't know if it is necessary to see the
14 video at all if you have a question which can be answered without --
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: How long this clip?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 30 seconds, 40 seconds.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then go ahead.
19 [Videotape played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The media objectively stated the
21 jihad warriors were targeting the Yugoslav side with their artillery,
22 their mortars, but what was reported that there were no wounded on this
23 side of the Drina
25 "There were five to six
1 know, Dusanka also, Borka and myself, the four of us, I believe. There
2 is more but I haven't seen that. We are from that group that were
3 wounded over here over the bridge.
4 "So you crossed over?
5 "Yes, we did."
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Lazic, does this excerpt confirm that some people were
8 wounded in the territory of Yugoslavia
9 A. Yes, obviously.
10 Q. What about the Yugoslav authorities or the Army of Yugoslavia,
11 did they have the task to protect their population and territory?
12 A. Yes, that is one of the basic tasks of any armed forces.
13 Q. You saw where this took place. Is it near Uzice?
14 A. Uzice is a bit further afield, but it is the main town in that
16 Q. Do you know whether this place, this part, was in the area of
17 defence of the Uzice Corps?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I wanted to ask you this: Are you familiar with any attacks
20 which took place in December, such as an attack against the village of
21 Bjelovac, and I have in mind 1992? Have you ever heard of that?
22 A. Yes, it was when the Muslim forces, or rather, the forces of the
23 Army of B&H launched an attack from the area of Srebrenica. They were
24 very active, destroying the villages in the area of Skelani and Bratunac
25 in particular.
1 Q. I wanted to play another excerpt.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Unless we have a reference, we cannot read the
4 text and it is completely inaudible.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you take note of that, Mr. Zivanovic? The
6 interpreters need a reference as before.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's the tape number 6, aftermath of attack on
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that okay, interpreters, please?
10 THE INTERPRETER: We found it. Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Stop here, please, and I will play it from 3.58.
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is Matic, Snjezana, our lab
16 assistant who died in Bjelovac. She received a wound to the right thigh
17 and she also suffered some suspicious tears on her neck and face and on
18 her left cheek. She is the first to arrive here. Most of these are
19 gun-shot wounds."
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop. What's your question,
21 Mr. Zivanovic?
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. My question, Mr. Lazic, is this: Was the Drina Corps tasked with
24 protecting the Serbian population in the area of Bjelovac and the
25 villages where this crime took place?
1 A. Of course they did.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you have to show him that video to put this
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I haven't --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Come on, Mr. Zivanovic --
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- showed him --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move. Come on. I mean, please keep in mind
8 that you have four Judges here, four professional Judges, and not a panel
9 of lay jurors.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Mr. President, but it was the subject of the
11 cross-examination of my learned --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But everyone knows that crimes were committed --
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have to corroborate --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- you don't need to show all this. I mean,
15 playing for the gallery, to the gallery -- what? You could have put the
16 question just the same without showing the video.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you. I have another similar videos if
18 Trial Chamber didn't like to --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: What are you -- what are you alleging? Maybe the
20 Prosecution will stipulate?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: For example, that Cerska was attacked as well and
22 same crimes took place in Cerska as well, and I call -- Cerska was the
23 subject of the cross-examination --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer or Mr. McCloskey, if Mr. McCloskey is
25 still here, are you prepared to agree that Cerska was attacked and let's
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Was attacked by ABH.
4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution's position has been
5 clear from the beginning of this case, that we concede that crimes were
6 committed by the ABiH. He can put in the whole Naser Oric judgement if
7 he pleases.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Not only that. We have our decision of November
9 2006, in which --
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In this case I --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: So put the question. The question is whether the
12 task of the army was to protect the civilians and Serbian property, et
13 cetera, and of course that's perfectly legitimate. But we don't have to
14 go through one film after another.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll do it, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lazic, these attacks - and I wanted to show
17 you some footage of the attack on Cerska and Skelani and some other
18 places as well, but tell me, were those attacks some of the reasons that
19 the order that we saw was put in place?
20 A. Yes, it was the basic reason for it.
21 Q. In your view, although you didn't participate in it, the attacks
22 on the territory of Yugoslavia
23 undertaken by the Uzice Corps at the time?
24 A. I think that is correct.
25 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
2 Mr. Nikolic, do you wish to re-examine the witness?
3 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, we have no
4 additional questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Faveau, I know -- Mr. Petrusic, sorry, I know
6 that you intend to re-examine this witness. Go ahead, please.
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lazic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. I will start with 1995. Briefly, I would like you to have a look
12 at 5D227. Could that please be put in e-court.
13 Let us go to the next page so that we can see it briefly and then
14 we can return to the first page.
15 This commander -- sorry, this document, Mr. Lazic, was signed by
16 Commander Colonel Avdo Palic. Do you know who it is?
17 A. As far as I recall, he was the commander of the Zepa Brigade.
18 Q. Please go to page 1 again. As you can see, this document was
19 issued by the Zepa Brigade, that is the 285th Eastern Bosnian Light
20 Brigade Zepa sent to the command of the 2nd Corps and to the command of
21 the 28th Division. I believe you will agree that the Zepa Brigade was a
22 part of the 28th Division?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait until the Judges have English
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have the translation of this document in
2 front of us actually.
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Lazic, this is a combat report which says that pursuant to an
5 order of the person standing in for the commander of the 28th Division
6 from Srebrenica, Major Rasim Becirovic dated the 20th of June, 1995
7 measures are being undertaken to conduct sabotage activities with a goal
8 of inflicting losses upon the aggressor and as regards its personnel and
9 equipment and to try and divert the amassing of Chetnik forces around
11 Did you know that in that period of June and around the 20th of
12 June there were such activities on the part of the Army of Bosnia and
14 A. I remember there were such activities at the time.
15 Q. Please scroll down the pages. Thank you. That would suffice.
16 You can see in this document that Colonel Palic is reporting to
17 his command that nine sabotage groups were formed or scouting groups or
18 reconnaissance groups as they termed them. It says the first group is
19 along the area of the highway Zljebovi, Pecnik. The second group is in
20 the area of Rijeka
21 in the area of Solila. The fifth in Crna Rijeka. By the way, I wanted
22 to ask you whether the Crna Rijeka area is also where the command of the
23 Main Staff of Republika Srpska was?
24 A. Yes. The Main Staff was deployed in Crna Rijeka.
25 Q. The sixth group was in the area of Banja Lucica, the seventh
1 again in the area of Crna Rijeka but closer to Bojcino Brdo. The eighth
2 in the area of Karaula, and the ninth in the area of the village of
4 My question is this: All of the sabotage groups that had been
5 formed, were they sent to the territory that was outside the protected
6 areas of Srebrenica and Zepa and under the control of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska or the VRS, that is?
8 A. I don't know whether exactly all of them were sent, but I know
9 something concerning the Visnjica group. They were active and inflicted
10 serious losses among the civilians. The group Crna Rijeka was also
11 active and put the Main
12 attacks towards Krivaca and Solila as well as towards Velika Zepa where
13 our communications centre was. As for the other groups, I'm not familiar
14 with that.
15 Q. Please go further down the document. That is enough. The last
16 paragraph says that some 40 Chetniks were killed, dozens were wounded,
17 and a large amount of infantry weapons was seized, among others we see
18 automatic rifles being mentioned, then the machine-guns, radio devices,
19 rounds of ammunition, and other equipment. Are you familiar with the
20 losses referred to by Colonel Palic here?
21 A. I'm not familiar with any details, but I did hear of some losses.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Please could we see document
23 5D1100 next in e-court -- I apologise, this document has not been
24 translated but it is due to arrive in the system shortly.
25 [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Item 3. On that day, the 26th of June, the deputy commander,
4 Major-General Radislav Krstic, reported that the enemy intensified
5 sabotage group incursions in particular from the enclaves of Zepa and
6 Srebrenica. Were you familiar with that on the 26th?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Please go back up to the very beginning of the document. In the
9 second paragraph it states that in the area of the Milici Brigade an
10 enemy sabotage group 15 to 20 soldiers strong from Zepa at 4.30 routed
11 our forward detachment at the Klicac feature and entered the village of
13 Further in the report it is stated that one soldier was killed, a
14 sergeant was wounded as well as one woman, five houses were set on fire,
15 and the cattle driven away. On the 26th -- well, is that the attack on
16 Visnjica that you refer to?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And of course would you agree with me that the command of the
19 Drina Corps was fully informed about it all?
20 A. Yes, it was.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to page 2 of the
22 document now, please.
23 Q. Tell us who signed this document, please.
24 A. Major-General Radislav Krstic.
25 Q. Is that his signature or ...
1 A. I don't think it's his signature because you have the word "za,"
2 meaning "for," so somebody signed for him.
3 Q. Is this your signature?
4 A. No, no, it isn't.
5 Q. Now let's have document 107, please -- P107 the number is. And
6 let's go straight to page 2 if we may.
7 Mr. Lazic, I think you're familiar with this document. It is an
8 order for active combat operation issued by the command of the
11 Mr. Lazic, in paragraph 2 we've already commented on it, the
12 Drina Corps command pursuant to directives 7 and 7/1 of the Main Staff of
13 the Army of Republika Srpska and on the basis of the situation in the
14 area of responsibility of the corps.
15 Now, my question to you is this and that's the point I'd like to
16 refer to: What do you understand by this? When it says this situation
17 in the area of the corps' responsibility, can that mean the situation, a
18 prior situation, that is to say from the end of June, in which an attack
19 took place by the Muslim sabotage groups on the territory of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska and the burning of this village, Visnjica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In your opinion, could that have been a basis for the Drina Corps
23 commander to issue the order for combat action or the start of the
24 attack --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I've let a lot of leading go by, and
2 this is also really when a question is prefaced with "in your opinion,"
3 you know. We've had a lot of thoughts and so forthcoming from
4 Colonel Lazic, but if there's any way to base it in any experience to
5 save the question otherwise, it's really sounding like it's eliciting
6 some kind of expert opinion.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I won't comment on that.
8 Mr. Petrusic, I'm sure you will continue with your re-examination
9 along the established rules of procedure and avoiding direct or leading
10 questions and not eliciting expert opinion from the witness. Otherwise,
11 please go ahead and try to bring your re-examination to an end as quickly
12 as you can.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Lazic, is there a connection between the previous attacks and
15 this particular situation, or rather, this order?
16 A. Certainly.
17 Q. May we now have document 3359 and 3358 put up on e-court, please,
18 if that is technically possible.
19 Mr. Gavric -- I mean Mr. Lazic, on the right-hand side of our
20 screens we have a document issued by Captain Gavric --
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Well, for the witness is it
22 possible to have ...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document has been taken off the
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's back again.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: If it moves things along, I've got hard copies of
4 both documents I can just give to the witness to look at instead of
5 proceeding this way.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we've got it right now. Thank you.
7 Go ahead.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Gavric -- I mean Lazic, the document on the right-hand side
10 of the screen is signed, as you see, by Mico Gavric. Now, was he
11 subordinate, a subordinate officer, to Vidoje Blagojevic, the commander
12 of the Bratunac Brigade?
13 A. Yes, he was.
14 Q. On the left-hand side you see a report by Commander Blagojevic in
15 which he states that four projectiles were fired.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you see that?
18 A. Yes, I can.
19 Q. Now, in Gavric's document it says that this firing took place at
20 1907 hours. Can you see that?
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 Q. And do you see in the document that after this first firing took
23 place that something went wrong with that artillery piece?
24 A. Yes, I can see that.
25 Q. Do you happen to know on the basis of what -- how it -- how it
1 happened that Colonel Blagojevic says that four projectiles were fired,
2 whereas Gavric speaks of just one?
3 A. First of all, I don't know how Captain Gavric could have been
4 writing to the Drina Corps in the first place because he was a
5 subordinate officer, he was subordinate to the Bratunac Brigade.
6 Secondly, Colonel Blagojevic most probably maintained communication with
7 Captain Gavric, so it was on the basis of their conversations that he
8 arrived at that piece of information. That's my opinion.
9 Q. I'm asking you whether in Gavric's report there are grounds for
10 Vidoje Blagojevic to say that four projectiles were fired?
11 A. Obviously not.
12 Q. May we have the next document 4D135, please.
13 This is a report from the Ministry of Defence, the secretariat of
14 defence in Tuzla
15 document we have a list of all the business premises used by the armed
16 forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Can we pan down, please. Thank you. And at the end of that page
18 under number 4 -- rather, IV it says: "The 282nd East Bosnian Light
19 Brigade in Srebrenica."
20 And then under number I it says: "Uses Hotel Domavija
21 Srebrenica," and the user is the 282nd East Bosnian Light Brigade. In
22 English that should be on page 2.
23 Mr. Lazic, is that a military facility?
24 A. It is a civilian facility which is used during wartime for
25 military purposes.
1 Q. From the aspects of the army can it represent a military target?
2 A. Yes, of course.
3 Q. In his report and a number, or rather, Exhibit P3359,
4 Colonel Blagojevic states that one shell fell on, or rather, two
5 projectiles fell near the Domavija facility. Do you remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. During yesterday's examination-in-chief -- or rather, the
8 examination by the Prosecutor, you said something about how orders were
9 conveyed and passed on. Now, I'm going to show you a document and it is
10 5D1077. And this is the last document, unfortunately, for which we do
11 not have a translation that we're going to use today. This is a
12 Drina Corps document dated the 25th of May, 1995. May we pan down.
13 Thank you.
14 And it is signed by Major-General Milenko Zivanovic.
15 Mr. Lazic, would you read point 4, please.
16 A. "Ensure that all anti-aircraft devices be placed on high
17 combat-readiness and monitor the situation constantly in the air-space."
18 I can't see what it says next. Anyway, it says: "Open fire on
19 UNPROFOR planes pursuant to permission given by the Main Staff and open
20 fire without waiting for permission on enemy forces -- enemy forces
21 firing on our forces and civilian targets."
22 Q. So is the corps commander conveying an order from the Main Staff,
23 or rather, General Mladic, saying how to fire, how to open fire?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And is it General Zivanovic who is conveying this information?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In the previous case would it only be he, General Zivanovic, or
3 someone of equal standing be in a position to convey orders?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. P3029 is the next document I'd like to have up on e-court now,
6 please. This is a Drina Corps document issued by the Drina Corps on the
7 24th of November, 1992, signed by Commander Colonel Milenko Zivanovic.
8 Do you remember that the Prosecutor yesterday linked this
9 document up to the directive number 4, directive number 4, and that can
10 be concluded on the basis of his -- of the first paragraph where it says:
11 "Pursuant to the directive strictly confidential number 02/5 of the 19th
12 of November, 1992, the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska," and
13 so on and so forth.
14 So do you remember this document, it was shown to you yesterday?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. May we go to the bottom of the page. Thank you.
17 Can you see the title there, the heading, where it says the
18 object of the operation?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So underneath that heading what it says is this: "Rout and throw
21 out enemy forces from the area of responsibility of the corps."
22 Then it says the next goal which is the following: "Open up the
23 corridors: Visegrad-Rogatica-Pale and Visegrad-Gorazde-Foca."
24 The next goal: "Rout and throw out of the area of responsibility
25 all paramilitary formations."
1 Then the next goal is to: "Create favourable conditions for the
2 functioning of civilian authority in the liberated towns and throughout
3 the territory in the area of responsibility of the corps."
4 Then it goes on to say: "To create the best possible conditions
5 for members of the Army of Republika Srpska and the population especially
6 during winter in the area of responsibility of the corps."
7 Now, these goals set out in this way, is there anything there
8 which relates to expelling the civilian population from this territory?
9 A. There isn't.
10 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please. Can we scroll down a bit,
11 please. That's fine.
12 Let us look at point 2 where it says: "Tasks for the units."
13 The first task given to the Zvornik Brigade reads: "In the
14 present area of responsibility conduct or carry out the necessary
15 regrouping and ensure for the main sources the corridor of
16 Zvornik-Crni Vrh-Ceparde and directly link up and ensure coordinated
17 action with elements of the East Bosnian Corps in the area of the eastern
18 slopes of Majevica as well as with elements of the Birac Brigade in the
19 Pandurica-Ceparde area. At the same time, out of the areas of the
20 village of Kostijerevo, Milosevici, Mladjevac, Snagovo, engage in active
21 combat in coordinated action with elements of the Birac and Bratunac
22 Brigades and liberate the general area of the village of Kamenica
23 have elements of the forces at the ready in the direction of Kalesija."
24 In the task given to the Zvornik Brigade, is there any mention of
25 the expulsion of the civilian population out of the area of Zvornik and
1 the area covered by the Zvornik Brigade?
2 A. No, there isn't.
3 Q. Under point 2.2, a task was given to the Bratunac Brigade which
4 I'd like you to read, or rather, I should read it out to you.
5 A. Please do so.
6 Q. "The Bratunac Brigade has received the task from its command to
7 engage its main forces in order to rout the enemy forces and reach the
8 features of Loznik, Zanik, Caus, and Bijela Stijena, and to engage its
9 other forces in coordinated action with elements of the Birac Brigade to
10 cut off the Srebrenica-Cerska road. Next, to engage in coordinated
11 action with the Birac and Zvornik Brigades in order to liberate the areas
12 of Pobudje, Hrnjice and Konjevic Polje, thus creating all the
13 pre-conditions for the opening the Vlasenica-Milici-Drinjaca road."
14 Next, it says: "The Fakovici Battalion should be consolidated as
15 soon as possible and tasked with reaching as deep within the area of
16 Srebrenica as possible, especially by drawing upon the territories of the
17 Serbian villages and to act towards Srebrenica."
18 Mr. Lazic, in this part of the task I read out to you, is there
19 any mention of the fact that this task given to the Bratunac Brigade has
20 as its goal the expulsion of the civilian population or is there anything
21 that would hint at that?
22 A. Obviously it is not directed at Srebrenica as the town proper is
23 concerned. What it does speak of is to -- is the use of the Serb
24 villages -- rather, what is meant by that is that the intention should be
25 to link up the various Serb villages in the area.
1 Q. P2742 was also shown to you yesterday. Can we have the document
2 now as well. The document is dated the 1st of May, 1993, from the
3 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. It was issued by the deputy
4 commander, Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic [phoen]. The document was
5 uploaded into e-court.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they don't have the
7 official translation.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you know that several days after the 1st of May, namely on the
10 8th of May, Zepa was declared a safe zone, an enclave?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know that an agreement was signed on the cessation of
13 hostilities on both sides?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Do you know if the agreement in question was observed by the
16 Army of Republika Srpska?
17 A. Yes, it was.
18 Q. Can we now call up -- [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Petrusic, please.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] P114 and another document --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Which the interpreter didn't hear because the
22 microphone was off.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] -- can we place them next to one
24 another. P107 and P114.
25 Q. Colonel, the document on the right-hand side was issued by the
1 Drina Corps command. It is entitled: "Order for attack on the Zepa
3 It was issued on the 13th of July, 1995. Did you have occasion
4 to see this document?
5 A. No, I did not have occasion to see this document because it was
6 issued at the Krivaca forward command post where I was not present and I
7 did not have otherwise the opportunity of seeing it.
8 Q. This document for the attack on Srebrenica is entitled: "Command
9 for active combat activity."
10 Did both documents originate from the same command?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do both of the documents relate to enclaves?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us why the 2nd of July document, in the drafting of
15 which you kind of participated, is entitled: "Command for active combat
16 activity," whereas the 13th of July, 1995, document is entitled:
17 "Command for the attack on the Zepa enclave"?
18 A. I could not account for that. There are no material differences
20 Q. Does the character of the combat activities involved, to put it
21 in layman's terms, the character of the combat activities to be carried
22 out, is that something that was in this instance decided upon by the
23 corps commander?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Just to clarify for the record, Mr. President, since
2 we're talking about two different documents, one having to do with
3 Srebrenica, the other one having to do with Zepa, if we could just
4 clarify which the last answer was referring to.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
6 Mr. Lazic, if you could clarify that for us, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first document was made at the
8 corps command as a result of the preparations for the conduct of active
9 combat activities in the direction of Srebrenica. This document did not
10 include an attack on Srebrenica, rather, combat activities in the general
11 area, the separation of enclaves -- or rather, it did not imply an attack
12 on Zepa. When the conditions were met on the 13th, as the second
13 document testifies, a subsequent order was issued for an attack on the
14 Zepa enclave.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Is that clear enough to you?
16 MR. THAYER: It is. Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 Let's proceed, Mr. Petrusic, please.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Now that we have touched upon this topic, what do -- which
21 activities do combat activities include?
22 A. All sort of combat activities.
23 Q. I'm sorry my question had to do with active combat activities.
24 A. Active combat activities is a broader term which includes both
25 offensive and defensive combat activity.
1 Q. Can we now have document P5, the last page of that document.
2 This is directive number 7 issued by the Commander-in-Chief,
3 Dr. Karadzic. [Microphone not activated]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Petrusic, please.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That should be the penultimate
6 page. I'm sorry. Page 21 of the Serbian version. Can we look at the
7 bottom of the page, that's page 15 in fact in e-court in English?
8 Q. Mr. Lazic, can you please look at point 8 which says: "Send
9 corps commander's decisions for approval to the commander of the VRS Main
10 Staff seven days before carrying out the planned operation."
11 This is my question for you. If the operation Srebrenica was
12 planned on the basis of the directive, did the commander of the
13 Drina Corps have the obligation to send to the commander of the
14 Main Staff the order that he issued for his approval?
15 A. That was the practice applied under normal living and working
16 conditions; however, you will admit that the fact that
17 President Karadzic, as the supreme commander, issued an order was
18 something that was out of the ordinary. And as a result of that, this
19 order was placed in a bit of an awkward situation as testified by this
20 point 8.
21 Q. Do you wish to say that the commander did not send his order for
23 A. No, he definitely did but he was not able to do it seven days
24 ahead of the planned operation, rather, he was able to do it only when
25 the order was ready, when it was completed.
1 Q. At any rate, there would have been some sort of written record of
2 it -- or rather, would there have been a written record of it somewhere?
3 A. There should have been.
4 Q. Do you know - and we're not calling for speculation here - that
5 this was, in fact, done?
6 A. I don't.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, any time soon we need to have a break,
8 Mr. Petrusic. How far away are you from finishing your re-examination?
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we take the
10 break now I could have a look at my notes and it is possible that I will
11 have one or two questions or that I will have none. If that is not a
12 problem for you or the witness, I would like us to take the break now,
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Not at all, Mr. Petrusic.
15 We'll have a break, as you suggest, 25 minutes and we'll take it
16 up from there. Thank you.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic, please.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Mr. Lazic, for the last time during your testimony we'll go back
22 to P5 which is to your right. You can have a look. Please go to page 8
23 for you. In e-court it is page 10 in the B/C/S -- sorry, 15, and in the
24 B/C/S version 10. Yes.
25 The Drina
1 physically separate the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica in order to
2 prevent any communication between the enclaves.
3 On this page, page 8, please read for yourself what operations
4 are being mentioned which were part of the Drina Corps tasks, at least
5 according to this directive. In order to navigate you through the text,
6 I just wanted to tell you that they are all in quotation marks.
7 A. I found it.
8 Q. Can you tell us what operations are those.
9 A. The operation that has to do with the separation of Srebrenica
10 and Zepa, then the Operation Jadar, the Operation Zvijezda, the
11 Operation Spreca.
12 Q. What about Operation Zvijezda, does its name also include 95, is
13 its full name Operation Zvijezda 95?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does that mean that it was supposed to be carried out in 1995?
16 A. It was just the name. It needn't necessarily mean that it was
17 supposed to take place in 1995. It probably was planned for that year,
18 but it didn't have to mean necessarily that it would be implemented that
20 Q. What about Spreca operation, is it also Spreca 95 operation?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Does the same explanation apply to this operation as well?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know why in this task given to the Drina Corps to separate
25 Srebrenica and Zepa no name is mentioned, there is no operation name?
1 A. I don't know. Perhaps it was because the combat activities
2 concerning the separation did not present an operation in itself in the
3 full sense of the words. Those were combat activities that had to do
4 with the separation of the two enclaves.
5 Q. Please go to the next page. For you it is page 9. In the
6 English it should be page 11. In any case, the name of the chapter is
7 Herzegovina Corps, therefore, could we please go further down the
9 Mr. Lazic -- it is page 12 in the English version.
10 A. I see.
11 Q. Do you see the penultimate paragraph under the Herzegovina Corps
12 task? It reads: "Until the end of March -- by the end of March 1995 the
13 Herzegovina Corps command shall plan operations for reaching the Neretva
14 river valley named Krivaja 95."
15 Do you see that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Does this task given to the Herzegovina Corps, Krivaja 95, have
18 anything to do with the Drina Corps task?
19 A. It has nothing to do with it.
20 Q. This concludes my examination concerning this document. I have
21 another document which is an intercept, the P number is 1242. Could we
22 please have that brought up on our screens. In the transcript the number
23 should be 1242B.
24 Mr. Lazic --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I just ask for a moment, if we could,
2 because we're having trouble getting the English transcript up here. I
3 don't know if --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's on e-court --
5 MR. THAYER: Yeah, we're -- that's what we're trying to do. It's
6 just slow on our side for some reason. I just ask for a second so we can
7 see it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means.
9 MR. THAYER: Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: When you're ready, tell me so that we can proceed.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we don't have the benefit
12 of the official translation.
13 MR. THAYER: We have it now, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, there's nothing special here. It's a
15 short intercept that we're talking about.
16 Mr. Petrusic.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Lazic, you said that in the period after the planned
19 operation, among others locations, you visited the location where
20 Colonel Vlacic was, that is the Bircani Brigade. I will read out a part
21 of that conversation. The conversation took place between the
22 then-General Krstic by some the corps commander -- or rather, by the
23 presidential decree he was appointed the Drina Corps commander. The date
24 is the 18th of July, time 5.16 p.m.
25 first page we have General Krstic who is at the IKM in Krivaca --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Petrusic. I hate to interrupt you
2 but you just said 5.16 p.m.
3 the top of the page we have 0716 hours. The document that we see on
4 e-court does mention in the bottom -- does have a reference to Lazic and
5 to Vlacic, but I want to make sure that we're talking of the same -- yes.
6 MR. THAYER: I think the intercept my friend wishes to show is
7 actually 1142, not 1242, which is what we have on the screen right now.
8 I think if we go there it might be the correct one.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, could you check that, Mr. Petrusic, please.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is the intercept I have on my
13 e-court monitor. It is at frequency 255850, time 7 hours 16 minutes. I
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then that's fine. That's correct. We
16 have the same one. Thank you. Let's proceed then.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] But the number is the correct one.
18 Q. General Krstic says to Cerovic -- well, first of all, Mr. Lazic,
19 do you know who Cerovic is?
20 A. I do, Colonel Cerovic was one of the assistants -- assistant
22 Q. Of course he was with the Drina Corps command?
23 A. Yes, he was assistant to the Drina Corps commander.
24 Q. Thank you. General Krstic says: "Listen well, Cerovic."
25 Then Cerovic says: "Go ahead.
1 "Krstic: Go down there and command that part.
2 "Cerovic: I understand.
3 "Krstic: Go ahead.
4 "Cerovic: Just listen. Yesterday evening Lazic called in. He
5 said that since Vlacic had arrived he intended to come here.
6 "Krstic: Well, fine, you are the main man there. Is it clear?
7 "Cerovic: Yes, sir.
8 "Krstic: Therefore, convey it to him that you are the main
10 "Cerovic: Yes, sir, General.
11 "Krstic: And command in such a way" --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, we need to see the second page of this
13 document in English.
14 Yes, go ahead.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I want to go on reading.
17 Krstic says: "Command that way.
18 Cerovic says: "Clear."
19 Krstic says: "Pay particular attention to the part to the west
20 of you."
21 The rest of the conversation is not important for us now.
22 Mr. Lazic, did the corps commander have the right to appoint
23 someone to replace him in this or similar situations?
24 A. Yes, it was his right.
25 Q. Did he appoint Cerovic to be his assistant instead of you as the
1 chief of administration?
2 A. You're wrong. I wasn't administration chief.
3 Q. Sorry, Chief of Staff.
4 A. I wasn't that either.
5 Q. What was your position at the time?
6 A. Head of the department for training and education -- and
8 Q. Does General Krstic appoint Cerovic as the person who was
9 supposed to stand in for him in this conversation?
10 A. I think this conversation took place after the 13th of July once
11 Krstic had become the corps commander. Cerovic was his assistant. It is
12 most likely that for that reason Krstic decided that he should command
13 from the command post in Vlasenica with the rest of the corps or over the
14 rest of the corps while he was away. I was, therefore, being excluded
15 from any command responsibilities or roles.
16 Q. Mr. Lazic, I beg your pardon, I forgot what your position was at
17 the time. This was also my last question. I have no further questions
18 of you, and thank you.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
22 That brings to an end the testimony -- your testimony, Mr. Lazic,
23 unless -- yes, Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I have two questions that arise
25 directly from the re-direct which will take no more than five --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Which re-direct?
2 MR. THAYER: My learned friend from the Miletic team.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see what the questions are first before we
4 authorise the witness to answer them.
5 MR. THAYER: The first question has to do with a particular
6 document, a 1993 Drina Corps order which my friend spent some time going
7 through in terms of the individual tasks being issued to the brigades and
8 asked very specific questions about whether those specific tasks involved
9 moving out, forcibly removing, the Muslim population. I want to point
10 out one portion of that document which was not shown to the witness
11 during that re-direct examination.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That -- doesn't a document once it is in the record
13 speak for itself?
14 MR. THAYER: It does, Your Honour, and we can certainly make that
15 a matter of submissions later on. I just, while we were on it, wanted to
16 follow up.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The other question?
18 MR. THAYER: The second question has to do with the specific
19 question regarding whether or not there is a written record of the
20 Krivaja 95 plan going to the Main Staff. It was one of the -- I believe
21 the last question my friend asked before the break whether there was --
22 whether he was aware of any written record of that being done. I wanted
23 to show the witness one document which, in the Prosecution's submission,
24 shows that was the case.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Just put your second question and forget the first
3 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
4 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
5 Q. Good morning again, Colonel. You were shown 65 ter 107, which is
6 the Krivaja 95 combat plan. I have a hard copy here for you or we can
7 put it up in e-court. I just ask if we could go to the last page of the
8 English which is page 6 of the B/C/S. And again, this is the 2 July
9 Krivaja 95 combat plan which my friend asked you about and I believe you
10 suggested that it -- you testified that this should have gone to the
11 Main Staff. Let me know when you see that last page.
12 A. Yes. That is correct, that it should have been sent. You can
13 see from the contents, that is to say that one copy should be sent to the
14 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, that that was compulsive.
15 Q. Thank you, Colonel. I have no further questions.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
17 MR. JOSSE: It's been done now, but could I ask what the point of
18 that was. It was exactly the same as Your Honours had just ruled in
19 relation to the other document. The document speaks for itself. The
20 evidence is in. Purely gratuitous.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, you are right, but we couldn't
22 anticipate everything.
23 MR. JOSSE: I'm not blaming the Court, with respect.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are right.
25 Mr. Lazic, I have checked, verified, with my colleagues whether
1 there are any questions from the Bench, there aren't, which means your
2 testimony ends here. On behalf of the Trial Chamber I would like to
3 thank you for your patience and for having come over to give testimony
4 and on behalf of everyone we wish you a safe journey back home.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, exhibits. Has the full list been
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Popovic Defence team, Mr. Zivanovic or --
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I sent the list of my --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you have just two documents.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, this is videos.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Two of them are shown to the witness, two of them
15 are not shown according to your --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are still introducing them?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objections?
19 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: From the other Defence teams? None.
21 So these are so admitted, and they will be given the correct
22 reference number later on.
23 Miletic Defence team, there is a whole list here going into a
24 page and little bit on the second.
25 You confirm that, Madam Faveau and Mr. Petrusic?
1 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections?
3 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President. We just ask that for those
5 documents for which there are no English translations, that they be
6 marked for identification, please.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Marked for identification, and that's how it will
8 be. The rest are admitted -- admitted. Okay.
9 Mr. Nikolic, I don't recall you making use of documents, but do
10 you have any documents that you wish to tender?
11 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 Prosecution exhibits, we have a list that has been circulated.
14 Any objections on the part of the Defence teams?
15 Yes, Ms. Faveau.
16 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Document 3376, it
17 is the witness statement of Milenko Lazic. The Prosecutor read the
18 relevant part of this statement and it is now on the transcript, but this
19 statement has not been shown to the witness and we did not see the B/C/S
20 version of it. So I don't really know whether the witness has really
21 signed and read the statement -- whether he has checked this statement or
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Madam.
24 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, this is an error. That document
1 is -- shouldn't be on our list. We never received a B/C/S version of it,
2 but I did read the portion in so there's no need to introduce the
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but that portion is in the record.
5 I previously saw you, Mr. Josse.
6 MR. JOSSE: I was going to make that exact submission.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
8 All these documents minus 3376 are admitted. Thank you. And
9 that concludes the testimony of Mr. Lazic.
10 Next witness.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to
15 start giving evidence. Our Rules require that before you do so you make
16 a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth. Madam Usher
17 is handing you now the text of the solemn declaration. Please read it
18 out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
21 and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Tapuskovic, who is appearing for accused
25 Popovic in this case, will now be asking you some questions. She will
1 then be followed on cross-examination by some, one or more, of the
2 Defence teams, other Defence teams, and then by the Prosecution.
3 Madam Tapuskovic, and if you could please introduce yourself for
4 the witness.
5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning to everybody else in the courtroom.
7 WITNESS: PERO MIJATOVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, the Trial Chamber has already introduced me
11 to you, but let me repeat for the record. My name is Mira Tapuskovic and
12 I am the Defence team of Mr. Vujadin Popovic.
13 Sir, I'd like to ask you to answer questions that I'm going to
14 put to you here and now. I'm going to ask them slowly so that you can
15 follow the transcript on the screen. And since you and I speak the same
16 language, to avoid overlapping which will create a problem in the
17 courtroom, both for the interpreters but especially for the exactitude of
18 recording what was said, I would like to ask you to follow the screen and
19 to see how the text appears on the screen so that you can answer properly
20 and slowly. Thank you.
21 Could you tell us for the record your name and surname first,
23 A. My name is Pero Mijatovic.
24 Q. Can you tell us where and when you were born.
25 A. I was born on the 23rd of October, 1955, in Sokolac.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you now in two or three sentences briefly tell us
2 what education you have had.
3 A. I'm a graduate from the faculty of economics of the university in
6 Q. Thank you. When you graduated from the faculty of economics,
7 where did you gain employment first? Give us a brief description of how
8 you progressed professionally.
9 A. After graduation I started working straight away in commercial
10 firms, and later on I got a job in the insurance fund in Sarajevo. And I
11 stayed in that institution until 1992, and when I moved to Sarajevo
12 work in the agency -- in the housing agency of that same insurance fund.
13 Q. You said that you moved there in 1992 because your job took you
14 there. Can you tell us now what you did during the war in the territory
15 of the former Yugoslavia
16 professionally speaking where did your job take you?
17 A. I left Sarajevo
18 I went to Sokolac once again. After that, when the order for
19 mobilisation was issued, I became activated and became a member of the
20 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade, the 3rd Company of the 1st Battalion, in
21 fact, as an ordinary private, a soldier.
22 Q. Thank you. Tell me this now, please. Up until what time were
23 you in the Army of Republika Srpska, what period?
24 A. On the 1st of November, 1993, pursuant to an agreement reached
25 between two ministries and pursuant to the request of the Ministry of the
1 Interior, the need was seen for replenishment of an inspector in
2 commercial crime in the public security centre of Sarajevo Birac centre.
3 They asked for ten inspectors, there was an opening for ten inspectors,
4 economics graduates and army members, who would put their names down in
5 the competition for a job in the crime prevention centre in Osijek --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Department of crime prevention, interpreter's
7 correction. Not Osijek
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I put my name forward, I passed
9 all the tests, and I was accepted as an employee of the centre on the
10 1st of November, 1993.
11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay working in the service of the
13 Ministry of the Interior, up until what year?
14 A. I worked as an inspector for commercial crime in Osijek
15 prevention --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Once again interpreter's correction: Crime
17 prevention department.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I then worked in Serbian Sarajevo
19 until the 30th of June, 2004.
20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to intervene. Page 45,
21 line 19 and page 46, line 3, it says "Osijek," which is a place in
23 So not Osijek
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that, Madam Tapuskovic. Please
1 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you please tell us, Mr. Mijatovic, whether at some period
3 during your employment within the frameworks of the Ministry of the
4 Interior were engaged by this Tribunal; and if so, describe what you did
6 A. Pursuant to instructions from the Tribunal sent to the crime
7 police administration in Banja Luka in 2001 or maybe 2002, I'm not quite
8 sure now because it's just a few months' difference, anyway a telegram
9 was sent, a dispatch was sent, requesting an experienced inspector
10 employed in the sector to be attached and take part in financial
11 investigations which were requested by the Tribunal. I received
12 instructions from the administration of the crime prevention police to
13 place myself at the disposal of the investigators, to take part in
14 assisting them in financial -- conducting financial investigations.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. This lasted with several interruptions over a period of several
18 Q. Tell me, please, this kind of work, work on assignments like
19 that, did it require special permission or certificates of any kind, if I
20 can put it that way?
21 A. The job did require, not only for me personally but for all
22 members of the MUP, a state examination which had to be passed and there
23 were other checks and training courses, lectures, and tests and
24 examinations, physical ones, it required a knowledge of the law and
25 regulations, and all legal regulations. And once that process had been
1 completed, of education and training and once we had been tested, a
2 certificate was issued allowing us to work in the area of white collar
3 crime or commercial crime.
4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness
5 mentioned a certificate of the IPTF which was not recorded, so I'd like
6 to ask him the following.
7 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, IPTF, is that the International Police Test Force
8 from Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Task force, interpreter notes.
11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Thank you. Tell us when you first became involved in this work,
13 or rather, you became involved in the Defence team for -- of
14 Vujadin Popovic?
15 A. My involvement began on the 11th of January, 2006, on the basis
16 of the authorisation given me by the Defence team of Vujadin Popovic, and
17 that was -- that has lasted to this day, to the present day, it's
19 Q. Thank you. Now, working as an investigator, can you tell us
20 briefly or explain to us briefly what type of material you gathered for
21 the requirements of the Defence team.
22 A. It mostly involved documents from all institutions, agencies,
23 directorates, secretariats, courts of law, prosecutor's offices,
24 hospitals, hotels, and many other agencies or bodies, institutes, and so
25 on. The documents received were certified copies. In cases where no
1 originals were available, we received certified copies thereof.
2 Q. Thank you. You said that you requested some documentation from
3 hotels. Can you tell us what sort of hotels, which hotels in fact were
4 involved, and what sort of documentation was sought.
5 A. The Fontana Hotel in Bratunac has been in a bankruptcy proceedings
6 since 2006 and these have not been finalised yet, and despite the status
7 currently held by that hotel, we managed with the assistance of the workers
8 still listed as hotel staff to find in the archives of the hotel and to
9 remove certified log-books, the so-called log-books, records of hotel
10 guests and invoices for guest stays for the months of June and July 1995.
11 Q. You say that you approached various institutions. Do you include
12 registrar's offices in that term?
13 A. We approached registrar's offices of various municipalities, such
14 as the municipality of Zvornik
15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me what the particular subject of your
16 interest was in seeking documentation from the registrar's offices?
17 A. These offices provided us with marriage and death certificates
18 for specific individuals with a view to verifying the identities and
19 dates of marriage and death, the names of the individual's parents, and
20 the actual names of the individuals involved.
21 Q. Did you also like -- ask for lists of individuals killed in the
22 conflicts raging in the area, and I'm referring to the individuals who
23 were killed on any of the sides, did you seek such documents from these
25 A. From the local authorities, from the municipal authorities, that
1 is to say from these registrar's offices in particular, we received lists
2 which were in the form of documents, meaning in hard copy, and in
3 electronic form of individuals killed or deceased who were of Muslim
4 ethnicity. These lists were made and kept in the Muslim-controlled
5 territories. After 1995, these lists were taken over by the authorities
6 of Republika Srpska, to put it that way.
7 Q. You were referring to the documents that you wanted to obtain.
8 In trying to obtain these documents did you get in touch with agencies --
9 with these same agencies in order to obtain maps and any other similar
10 cartographic material?
11 A. Among other documents, in the republican survey agency, in their
12 branch office in Zvornik, on our written request we received copies of
13 maps of cadastre municipalities of Zvornik and Sepak.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you recall how many such maps you obtained for the
15 purposes of the Defence team for Vujadin Popovic?
16 A. We obtained five copies of maps which had plotted in them the
17 road where the school near Pilica was and where Branjevo was.
18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have
19 document 1D1106 pulled up in e-court, please.
20 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, while we're waiting for the document to appear on
21 our screens, let me tell you that we will be looking at a map now. I
22 will be asking you to review the map and to tell us whether this is one
23 of the maps you obtained for the purposes of the Defence team.
24 Do you recognise the map, Mr. Mijatovic?
25 A. Yes, I do. This is the map of the cadastre municipality of
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this map is on our
4 65 ter exhibit list, as are the other four maps which we will not be
5 showing the witness now to save time. They are in e-court, and let me
6 tell you that their numbers are 1D1006 [as interpreted] through to
8 JUDGE AGIUS: For -- just to correct the transcript, the first
9 one is not 1006, it's 1106 right through 1D1110.
10 Yes, let me ask you a question, Madam Tapuskovic, in proofing or
11 preparing this witness for this testimony, did you provide him with a
12 dossier of all the documents that you wish to examine him upon or do you
13 have a dossier that has been made available to him or not?
14 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is our intention
15 to speak to a great many documents through this witness; however, we
16 decided to opt for a shorter version of the examination of this witness
17 so that it will be shorter than the two hours we announced. I would like
18 to use the possibility that was already applied here and that's -- okay,
19 thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I was just trying to find out how you intend to
21 proceed, basically. That's okay. Go ahead.
22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, when you were obtaining these documents, did this
24 job require you to work only within one entity or did your job require
25 you to work more broadly than that?
1 A. The work I had to do could not boil down to the area of just one
2 entity, it included the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, both units
3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, both entities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as
4 the Republic of Serbia
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me what sort of contacts you had with
6 centre -- with the central depot in Sarajevo, if you had any, and can you
7 tell us what the central depot in Sarajevo stands for?
8 A. In the Presidency building there is the central depot, that's
9 what we call it, but it's the archives in fact of Bosnia-Herzegovina
10 which houses the historical archives as well as the archives dating from
11 1992 through to the period when the documentation was transferred into
12 electronic form sometime in 1993.
13 Q. Thank you for this explanation.
14 In addition to your contacts with companies and various
15 institutions you enumerated for us, did you have contacts with natural
16 persons, with private individuals, and to what extent?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps to save some time, that last archives,
19 can we clarify, is that a Serb archive or a Muslim archive? It's not
20 clear to me, is that a Federation archive?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Tapuskovic.
22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. At the
23 very start of my question I said that the central depot was located --
24 that the archives was located in Sarajevo
25 archives of Serbia
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let's proceed.
2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope my learned friend is
3 satisfied with the answer.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Very much so.
5 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, it is the archive
6 of the Federation.
7 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, please go ahead.
8 A. Thank you.
9 I had constant contacts with natural persons, private
10 individuals, and in many different ways. We needed the assistance of
11 individuals who were able to take us to other individuals who were in
12 possession of information that would be useful to us or the assistance of
13 individuals who had such information. The first contacts we made were
14 very important in order to gain their trust and to hold initial
15 preliminary conversations with these individuals. We wanted to create a
16 relationship of mutual trust.
17 Q. Let me ask you something in connection with your procurement of
18 the material for the purposes of the Defence team. Did you obtain
19 documentation from such private individuals that you then handed over to
20 the Defence team?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us the form in which you received such documents?
23 A. We received them in CDs or on CDs. The CDs contained the
24 documentation we were interested in.
25 Q. Thank you. Can we now please have document 1D1095 shown in
2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to show a
3 group of documents through this one document once more in order to save
5 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, do you have the document on your screen?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this one of the documents you obtained from natural persons
8 you came in touch with on CDs?
9 A. Yes. This document was to be found on that CD.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to use of any B/C/S documents at this
13 time that we do not have English translations for. This is something
14 we've been very easy about, but --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but what we are talking about for the time
16 being is the provenance of these documents and provided the document is
17 identified by the exhibit number that they intend to give it, I think we
18 can move forward.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I cannot cross-examine on something I know
20 nothing about.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but it's on provenance that we're talking
22 about, for the time being as I understand it. Yeah, he is not testifying
23 to the contents as Judge Kwon has just put it.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I cannot cross-examine on
25 provenance if I can't understand the document. To be realistic, I don't
1 intend to. We tried to stipulate to all this material, but I just want
2 to make very clear that this puts us in a very difficult position both on
3 provenance. If that becomes an issue, it's not so far from what they've
4 told us, but they've had that three or four months, they've got resources
5 to do this, this is direct, this is not re-direct. So I hope they will
6 make a better effort to get us documents that we can understand for all
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Tapuskovic, go ahead.
9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Mr. President, I
10 would like to respond to my learned friend's comment. We submitted quite
11 some time ago all of our documentation for translation to this Tribunal.
12 Part of the documents have been translated, some are in the system, while
13 others are still awaiting translation. This is beyond the powers of the
14 team itself; however, I'm not going to ask the witness about the contents
15 of those documents or I'm not going to ask him about the author of the
16 documents. We intend to use them with our military expert and now we are
17 dealing with provenance only.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in order to help Mr. McCloskey better, however
19 once we have this document on -- being shown, could you indicate which is
20 the identification number, the 1D number that you intend to give it, so
21 that least we know which one you're talking about and which group it
22 belongs to, like you did in the maps when you were dealing with those six
23 or seven maps.
24 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you for
25 your instruction. When I asked for the document I stated what the number
1 is, it is 1D1095, it is on our 65 ter list. I am following the same
2 principle. In the third group of documents I will take one of them to be
3 a representative of the others to make things shorter.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, Mr. McCloskey, we're talking of an ABiH
5 2nd command Tuzla
6 formation of reserve units dated 14th June 1995. And for the time being
7 I think we can proceed. I see no problems as long as the witness
8 restricts himself, limits himself to provenance, yeah. And of course
9 they will be marked for identification pending translation.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we've had these documents so that the
11 documents themselves are not a surprise, but, Mr. President, when these
12 documents are on the screen before you I -- they become something that
13 has more interest to me and I understand that we'll wait for them. But
14 when a document goes before the Court, the Prosecution would like to have
15 the ability to understand it and to be able to cross-examine on it once
16 it's shown to the Court. Provenance is not totally limited. Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 Let's proceed for the time being and then we'll see. If we have
19 problems we'll try to sort them out. Yes, go ahead, Madam, go ahead with
20 your question.
21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. We will move on to a third type of document so to say.
23 Mr. Mijatovic, tell everyone in the court, please, whether you obtained
24 any photographs and whether you made any photographs yourself for the
25 needs of the Defence team.
1 A. Among other documents in different forms, we also procured photo
2 documentation which had to do with the buildings of the Fontana Hotel.
3 We took pictures of the hotel from the rear, from the front. We also
4 took pictures of the Bratunac bus station, then photographs of sport
5 halls which are adjacent to the schools in Rocevic and Kula close to
6 Pilica. Pictures were taken of the soccer pitch in Nova Kasaba as well,
7 as well as of the area of Baljkovica.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic. To provide reference to the Chamber as
9 well as to the Prosecutor, during Mr. Babic's testimony we introduced
10 some of our investigator's photographs; these are 1DIC88 and 89.
11 Mr. Mijatovic, we will now go to another type of archival
12 material. What other archives did you get in touch with in the territory
13 of the Federation? When I say "other types of archives," I meant to say
14 in Republika Srpska as well as the Federation itself in order to obtain
16 A. By virtue of the authorisation that we had, we turned to the
17 central archives in the course of this year, that is the central archives
18 of the Army of Republika Srpska, in the former barracks of Kozara in
19 Banja Luka which is in the building of the logistics unit command. After
20 approval was given by the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina in
22 Luka, certain members of the team were permitted to do so. After that we
23 received a written notification that contained the names of individual
24 members and at what time they were to visit the archives of the Army of
25 Republika Srpska. I believe that is its full title. It was done so that
1 we would be able to extract photocopies of documents pertaining to the
2 28th Division of the 2nd Corps of the Army of B&H. We followed the rules
3 that were agreed upon, we did so in writing as well as orally. We
4 visited the archives and conducted a several-day-long exercise of
5 searching the documents there. We extracted and marked certain documents
6 which we believed may be of importance in the presentation of the Defence
8 Q. You said it was the documents of the 28th Division. Can you tell
9 us how many binders of such documents were there and did you notice
10 whether they were in any way marked or not?
11 A. Upon entering the archives we found a number, some 15 binders
12 full of documents which were separated from the rest of the archives.
13 They were placed on the table of the central room of the archives. We
14 were told that this was all there was that we might be interested in and
15 that we were free to screen the documents and mark them by markers or
16 self-adhesive tapes. There is an archival term but I don't think it is
17 relevant right now. And it was the first time that we realized that the
18 archives were actually more voluminous than we thought.
19 Q. I will repeat the second part of my question because perhaps it
20 was too long. Concerning the documents, did you mark them all in the
21 same way or were there any differences?
22 A. As regards photocopies of those documents, these were quite poor,
23 often illegible, probably due to the poor quality of the originals
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Tapuskovic -- yes, sorry, please do finish.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those documents in their upper
2 right-hand corner, depending on where the margin was, where the blank
3 space was, or on the back of the document there were eight-digit RP
4 numbers. On certain documents which were originals rather than
5 photocopies, the eight-digit numbers did not appear.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm being asked to have the break now instead of at
7 12.30. So we'll have a 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Tapuskovic.
11 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, to go back to where we left off before the break,
13 I asked you whether you noticed that there were any different types of
14 mark in the documents and you told us you saw certain numbers on some of
15 the documents. Did you ask for any explanation concerning the numbers
16 from any of the people at the archives and what they meant?
17 A. Those who were there, present, handling the archives and who were
18 present during the screening of the documents were there all the time.
19 At a certain point when we came across those differences, we asked them
20 what they meant. They told us that that documentation used to be with
21 the Prosecutor's office of this Tribunal and that it was returned as such
22 to the central archives of the Army of Republika Srpska.
23 Q. On that occasion did you see any kind of a list of documentation
24 that the Tribunal may have photocopied for its needs?
25 A. In the process of going through the archives we came across a
1 document which stood out, it contained several pages of text. There were
2 columns with numbers of documents as well as titles. One could see from
3 the list that it was a list of all the documents which may have been the
4 list of documents returned to the archives by the Prosecutor, but we were
5 not sure of that.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic. In order to provide an illustration of
7 the documents you went through and exempted out of the 15 binders, could
8 we please see document 1D1029 in e-court.
9 Mr. Mijatovic, can you see the document before you?
10 A. Yes, I can.
11 Q. Do you remember having found this document in the archives in
12 Banja Luka?
13 A. Yes, I do remember having found this document that is on the
14 screen in the archives in Banja Luka.
15 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move to the next
16 page of the document. I believe this is sufficiently enlarged for the
17 witness to be able to read.
18 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, this is page 2 of the document we recalled in
19 e-court. Could you please read to all of us what the second page says.
20 A. The second page of the document says: "This photocopy is true to
21 the original copy found at the archives of the Army of the VRS certified
22 by competent officer Brigadier Mladen Marinkovic, the 3rd of March,
23 2008." A stamp is affixed, I believe it is the stamp of the Ministry of
24 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. Could you give us an explanation regarding not the contents of
1 the document but what the sentence you read out actually means.
2 A. During the screening of documents we asked for and received the
3 required documentation, all of which was certified in this way. It
4 stated that those were photocopies, the photocopies of documents
5 certified by this particular body or person.
6 Q. All of the documents which you retrieved from the archives, did
7 they all have or contain this sentence and this stamp?
8 A. We retrieved some 50 documents from the archives certified in
9 this way.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic. Not all of those documents are on our
11 65 ter list, only a selected few.
12 We will move on to different type of documents, I have in mind
13 paper documentation. In your contacts, did you cooperate with certain
14 associations that existed during the war and did you gain some
15 documentation from them as well?
16 A. During our systematic work we managed to establish contacts with,
17 among others, the association of the detainees of Republika Srpska, the
18 seat of which was in Banja Luka.
19 Q. Tell me, please, which documents, what type of documents, did you
20 receive there?
21 A. The documents were as follows: Six CDs together with written
22 material on many pages, reports, and documents with other contents which
23 were not on the CDs but were a component part of the documents received
24 from the association mentioned.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.
1 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] As a reference for the
2 Trial Chamber and for my colleague of the Prosecution, they were CDs on
3 the 65 ter list of exhibits on the Defence of Vujadin Popovic and the
4 numbers are 1D1163, ending with inclusively 1D1168.
5 Your Honours, we're not going to show these videos. Part of them
6 have already been presented with the transcribed text in the course of
7 Mr. Zivanovic's opening statement at the beginning of the Defence case
8 itself, and a portion was shown today during the re-direct with
9 Witness Lazic. We're going to use the exhibits along with other
10 witnesses once they are transcribed and translated in full.
11 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, I asked you earlier on something about how you got
12 documents from witnesses. I would now like to ask you about witnesses
13 and how you worked with them in preparing them for this Defence case,
15 A. During this work in the field I contacted -- I personally
16 contacted over 350 individuals and I introduced myself to them, showed
17 them my credentials and authorisations, stated the reasons for which I
18 wished to contact them. I had the opportunity after getting to know them
19 and introducing myself to make a preliminary arrangement, a preliminary
20 agreement; and then later on, once I had assessed how useful the
21 information they could provide me with could be, these potential
22 witnesses went a step further and made contact with the lead counsel of
23 the team.
24 Q. Now, when you contacted the witnesses, or rather, persons who you
25 thought could be potential witnesses in the Vujadin Popovic Defence case,
1 did you ever personally take any statements of any kind from any of the
2 witnesses, any of these persons?
3 A. Having reached an agreement and pursuant to instructions from the
4 lead counsel, I personally did not take written statements ever when the
5 witnesses were interviewed and questioned.
6 Q. Can I therefore conclude that you just conducted informative
7 interviews and then consulted the lead counsel?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Leading.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: It is definitely.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps if she can clarify a sensitive issue.
12 Was he taking statements and were they only written --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I agree, Mr. McCloskey, but what can I do about it
14 at this time? It's already answered.
15 In future, please try to avoid leading questions,
16 Madam Tapuskovic. I was letting you go because there was no objections;
17 but the agreement is once there are objections, then you have to adjust
19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll
20 take greater care in future most certainly.
21 Q. I'll come to the question of statements in a minute. But tell me
22 first, please, Mr. Mijatovic, whether during the course of your work you
23 took part in gathering information and data for any operative actions
24 which could have had significance or could have significance for the
1 A. In the course of my work, through the secretariat of the
2 Government of Republika Srpska in Banja Luka, we did manage to contact
3 the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the previous
4 Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska there were files or a file, a
5 dossier, which had the title, the operative title, of Kum.
6 Q. Thank you. We'll talk about that operative action titled Kum,
7 but I kindly ask you not to mention any names because, as you say, it was
8 an operative action so we don't want to put anybody into a difficult
10 Anyway, can you remember how many documents you managed to access
11 on this Kum operation?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
13 Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd object to that instruction. Of course I'm
15 not sure exactly what he means, but names are of course a key part of any
16 investigation. We don't want any protected witnesses mentioned, of
17 course, but as for names where he is getting material that is an
18 instruction that I think needs to be clarified.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We agree with Mr. McCloskey on this. You need to
21 give us some basic idea what this Operation Kum was and how can it be
22 identified later on when we make reference to it or to documents
23 recovered under that scheme.
24 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That
25 operation was mentioned in the proceedings so far, and in that connection
1 Witness 1PV168 was mentioned too or 1PW, but I wanted to safe-guard the
2 identity of that person. But never mind, we can continue in this way
3 too. PW-168 for the transcript. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go into private session for a minute?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, for sure.
7 Let's go into private session, please.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 21934-21935 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session, Madam.
6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Tell me, please, in talking to the witnesses did you meet
8 Mr. Veljko Ivanovic and Boris Dragan?
9 A. Jovic Dragan did you mean? Pursuant to instructions from lead
10 counsel I found the witnesses and came into contact with them, that is to
11 say, Dragan Jovic and Veljko Ivanovic, I contacted them. I held
12 preliminary talks with them and told them about the establishment of
13 identity and so on, and they signed a document saying that they
14 voluntarily, of their own free will, accepted being our witnesses.
15 Q. Do you know whether they had already testified before this
16 Trial Chamber before perhaps?
17 A. They -- well, after I talked to them to gain information and
18 provide them with information, sometime later they came into contact with
19 the investigators of the Tribunal, of the OTP, they contacted them and
20 that was at the police station in Kozluk in order to conduct an
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.
23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for a moment I'd
24 just like to go back into private session if I may because I want to show
25 the witness another document.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back to private session, please.
2 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. In your investigative work, Mr. Mijatovic, did you come by
21 information to the effect that some foreign nationals had been
22 participants of these events in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. In the area of the Zvornik municipality through the contacts with
24 Sladjan Jokic we learned that during the war a sabotage -- a
25 reconnaissance platoon of the Drina Wolves comprised two young men who
1 were Polish nationals and who were reputed to be good fighters.
2 Q. What other information did you obtain, do you perhaps recall
3 their names?
4 A. One of them is Mieczyslaw Szulinski and the other is
5 Andrzej Ciesnowski. In some places he was recorded as Andrzej and others
6 as Andrej, but there you have it.
7 Q. Do you happen to know where they ended up at the end of that war?
8 A. Mieczyslaw Szulinski got killed in the Croatian offensive at the
9 Ostrelj pass, therefore, during offensive combat activities of the
10 Croatian army. The other individual survived the war and he stayed
11 behind in Zvornik. He had very modest lodgings there, just a room, and
12 he engaged in different farm work and helped citizens chop wood and so
13 on. Subsequently, he was interviewed in Tuzla. He was asked about
14 residence papers and stuff like that, and at the end of this he left to
15 the territory of Republika Srpska.
16 Q. Can you tell me how you came to know that this other individual,
17 Mieczyslaw, whatever his name is, that he got killed?
18 A. His brother in arms, so to speak, who was able to communicate
19 with him in English took me personally to the Karakaj town cemetery,
20 where among others his commander too had been buried. They were part of
21 a very small unit, and I believe one out of three was either killed or
22 wounded. They had great losses. He took me to see the tombstone where
23 the name of Mieczyslaw Szulinski was written in the same cemetery. He
24 took me to see that tombstone himself.
25 Q. Do you have any record of you having been there?
1 A. In the course of the day we made photographs of the tombstone and
2 I believe you can find the photographs in the documentation.
3 Q. In order to obtain information about the two Poles, did you
4 address formally any of the bodies or was it simply through your
5 conversations with several individuals including this one person you
7 A. We have a great deal more information about the person who
8 survived, Andrzej, since through Interpol and through the crime police
9 administration in Banja Luka a dispatch arrived at the public security
10 station in Zvornik with a view to verifying the identity of this
11 Andrzej --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get the exhibit number of the
14 photographs we're referring -- he's referring to.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam.
16 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we didn't place
17 these photographs on the list. We simply wanted to present a story about
18 other individuals participating in these events and this was to be my
19 last question in my examination of this witness.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you don't intend to present these photos?
21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we've never heard anything about a
24 lot of what he's testified about. All we were told is that he was going
25 to talk about documents. I haven't objected until now, until we got into
1 this long story about, of course, what we all remember the Polish folks
2 in the intercept. There is a document on Mr. Bourgon's list related to
3 the Polish folks, but I would hope that perhaps when we do break if
4 there's more information coming out of this witness from either people
5 that decide to bring evidence out from him that they would tell us about
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 Yes, Madam Tapuskovic, do you have any further questions?
9 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
10 questions for the witness. We have the photographs but did not tender
11 them. I've completed my examination-in-chief. We can, of course, show
12 the photographs if the Trial Chamber wishes us to.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 Mr. Ostojic, do you intend to cross-examine this witness?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: We do not, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
17 I understand Mr. Bourgon or Ms. Nikolic wish to cross-examine
18 this witness. Go ahead.
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mijatovic.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. Before I put some questions to you on the topic we discussed --
24 you discussed last, I would like to let the Trial Chamber know something
25 about the list concerning the Polish volunteers. These were Prosecution
1 exhibits that had long been admitted into evidence in this case.
2 However, I will not be using them in my cross-examination of this
3 witness. I will have only one question for Mr. Mijatovic.
4 Mr. Mijatovic, in your investigations did you get any
5 confirmation about what the fate of one of the survivors of the
6 Drina Wolves was, Mr. -- namely Mr. Andrzej Ciesnowski?
7 A. From the Zvornik public security station following a written
8 request of ours, we received a copy of a dispatch from the crime police
9 administration in Banja Luka in which Interpol was addressing that MUP
10 unit with the intention of verifying the one period of life spent by that
11 individual in Zvornik. Sometime during 2002 or thereabouts the Swiss
12 border police had a vehicle which he used on his way to Poland and which
13 apparently contained a certain amount of drugs.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
16 further questions of this witness.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 Mr. Lazarevic.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. No cross-examination for
20 this witness.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Faveau.
22 MS. FAVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci, Madam.
24 Mr. Krgovic.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: There is no cross-examination for this witness,
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 Mr. Sarapa.
4 MR. SARAPA: No, no questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
9 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Either prior to looking into the Polish volunteers issue or
12 during, did you happen to review the intercepts between -- that the
13 Prosecution has alleged are between Drago Nikolic and Vujadin Popovic
14 regarding Polish folks?
15 A. In the course of these activities I didn't have either the
16 occasion or the need or an order to look into the intercepts you
18 Q. I didn't say look into but I just said read. Did you read that
20 A. I didn't.
21 Q. How about the document I believe it was from the Drina Corps to
22 the Zvornik Brigade, perhaps vice versa, that mentions the names of the
23 two Polish folks that were the subject of the Zvornik Brigade
24 conscription. Did you look at that document?
25 A. I didn't see that document. I'm not acquainted with that at all.
1 Q. Did anyone tell you about that intercept? Perhaps I'll -- to
2 refresh your recollection, it's -- briefly discusses Drago Nikolic
3 appears to be concerned about these Polish intercepts and suggests about
4 slitting their throats and throwing them in the Drina, and Popovic says
5 something about, No, don't do that, let's get them in a unit somewhere,
6 something to that effect?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is
9 entirely beyond the scope of the examination. The investigator never
10 read any such intercepts and cannot answer any questions about them nor
11 is it down to the Prosecutor to present contents of the intercepts to the
12 witness while interpreting them at the same time.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The question in itself was harmless,
15 but you went beyond the question, Mr. McCloskey. So let's proceed,
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Taking into account the documents and the intercept I've outlined
19 for you, did anybody talk to you or tell you about those things in your
21 A. The answer will be the same as to the previous three questions.
22 I didn't have either the occasion to or the need to do that nor was I
23 told to do that in the course of my activities aimed at obtaining
24 documents. I wasn't told to do that either in writing or orally as I was
25 doing that part of my work.
1 Q. How did you know who to go look for when you were looking into
2 the Polish conscript thing?
3 A. The investigation did not start or depart from the intercepts
4 that you've referred to. My investigation departed from a different
5 direction, the person who fought with them, Sladjan Jokic provided me
6 with the basic information and facts, and he helped me take that
7 investigation through to the end.
8 Q. So you're saying you learned of these two guys' name through
9 Sladjan Jokic, not through any of your attorneys, investigators, or any
10 study of the documents in this case?
11 A. With or without that, the town itself is privy to the story about
12 these two individuals, everybody knows about one of them having been
13 killed and buried there. This piece of information could have come from
14 anyone in that town.
15 Q. What direction did you receive from the legal team regarding this
16 investigation into the Polish folks?
17 A. They were usual instructions. I was to find out whether these
18 fighters were, indeed, there and under those names and I was to find out
19 whether there were some other individuals who could tell us more about
20 these individuals and who knew about members of the Drina Wolves.
21 Q. The documents you got from the Hotel Fontana, did they indicate
22 that Vujadin Popovic had spent the night there in July any time 1995?
23 A. The documents existed. I didn't go into the contents of the
24 documents. The important thing was that the documents dated from the
25 month of July 1995 and that they related to that particular lodging. I
1 didn't have any need to go into the contents of the documents to be able
2 to answer your question.
3 Q. Who did on the team?
4 A. Probably the lead counsel.
5 Q. Can you describe to me everything you know, everything you
6 remember, about those documents. You've obviously seen them. Precisely
7 describe to me what they were as far as you can recall.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
9 Ms. Tapuskovic.
10 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said
11 that he did not go into the gist of the documents, and I believe since
12 the witness said that he didn't know anything about it this would be
13 calling for speculation on his part. In his testimony in chief he said
14 that he came by the documentation in relation to the months of June and
15 July, so he could be asked about that process. I don't think the
16 question as it was put was appropriate for the witness.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Not going through the content, that is one thing;
18 knowing the subject matter of the document is another. So provided the
19 question is restricted to that, it's perfectly legitimate.
20 So you collected these documents. You're not aware of or you're
21 not familiar with the contents as such, with the details of these
22 documents. But I assume you know what they were about because I don't
23 think your function or your task was to collect documents at random
24 whatever they were. You were seeking certain documents. So given that,
25 I think you can answer this question, as far as you can recall of course
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The matter is of a technical
3 nature. I had to know which documents we needed for which period and
4 from which part of the archives, whether it came down to the treasury,
5 account keeping, ledgers, and stuff like that. In the course of my work
6 on removing these documents, I established that for the month of July
7 1995, according to the statements from the hotel staff, somebody, and
8 they don’t know who, had taken away the books relating to the month of
9 July with the assistance of the Bratunac police station. That happened
10 several years earlier. These documents were nowhere to be found among
11 the files of the hotel. However, the hotel staff, the treasurer, the
12 bookkeeper, and others managed to obtain copies of these documents from
13 other sources; these were invoices, log-books, books recording local and
14 foreign hotel guests. It was thanks to this that we still managed to
15 collect everything we needed to obtain and everything they had found.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. Did you have a chance to see the Hotel Fontana documents that
18 were seized from the Bratunac Brigade by the OTP and that are an exhibit
19 in this case? Basically it says who was paying what for what days in
20 July, Momir Nikolic is buying coffee, other things.
21 A. The only thing I was told was that somewhere in their
22 documentation there should exist a receipt against the seizure of the
23 documents in order for them to be able to know which of the documents had
24 been seized. As they were not able to find that receipt, they could not
25 establish which documentation was missing. It should have been sorted
1 out in chronological order by months, that's why we were unable to know
2 what type of documents these were or how many there were. Of course,
3 needless to say, we couldn't tell which body or entity had taken them
4 away to begin with.
5 Q. My question was: Did you have a chance to see the records, the
6 old records that are of the Bratunac -- of the Hotel Fontana that we have
7 in this case before you went off to look for records with the
8 Hotel Fontana so you could compare and see if they were copies or same or
9 different? Normal police work.
10 A. I understand the question. Before I got to the archives, I was
11 not able to know what the documents I'm -- what the documents I'm looking
12 for look like in order to recognise them immediately. I didn't know the
13 author of the documents or the -- who the documents related to. It was
14 only when I entered the premises of the Fontana Hotel that I came in
15 touch with the archives and with this issue of seized documents that had
16 to be located.
17 Q. Does the investigative team still have those documents that you
18 saw from the Hotel Fontana archives?
19 A. This happened in mid-2006, if I understand your question
20 correctly. The documents we took can be found in our documentation. We
21 have non-certified photocopies.
22 Q. So you photocopied the stuff that was in the archives?
23 A. Yes. At one point I asked that their authenticity be certified
24 as well. I was unable to obtain that because of the status of the hotel,
25 the fact that it's in bankruptcy at the moment.
1 Q. Yeah, that's a shame. One last question: Who did you get them
3 A. The head bookkeeper, the treasurer, and an individual who is a
4 waiter but does all other sorts of stuff as well; and all these three
5 individuals are still listed as the hotel staff.
6 Q. I meant the names but perhaps you can think about the names and I
7 can ask on Monday.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
9 We'll stop here for today. We'll resume Monday morning at 9.00.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, perhaps he doesn't need it but for
12 his sake as well as ours ...
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's important, Witness, that between now and
14 Monday you do not communicate with anyone on the subject matter of your
15 testimony, that includes of course your employers, the Defence team of
16 the accused Popovic.
17 Before we close, before we adjourn, Mr. Ostojic, on behalf of the
18 Trial Chamber I would like you to convey to Mr. Meek, who's now left us,
19 our sincere wishes to him for his career and also to express our
20 gratitude for the cooperation that he's always shown with the
21 Trial Chamber and the conduct of the defence of your client. We wish him
22 well and I'm sure that you will convey these messages to him. Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of
25 June, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.