080616ED

Page 22178

1 your testimony, you will be speaking the whole truth. You have the text.

2 I see. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

3 undertaking with us.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

5 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

6 WITNESS: LJUBO RAKIC

7 [Witness testified via videolink]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I don't know about my

10 colleagues.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

13 Mr. Zivanovic.

14 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rakic. My name is Zivanovic. I appear here

16 for Vujadin Popovic; and, although we know each other, I have to do the

17 official introduction.

18 Could you please tell me your full name and surname?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, say something, please, so that we'll see

20 whether the interpretation is reaching us.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ljubo Rakic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fine.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. How old are you?

25 A. 55.

Page 22179

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you tell me about your educational attainment?

3 A. I completed the electrical engineering school of the military

4 academy.

5 Q. Could you tell me, briefly, about your career?

6 A. After I completed the academy 1980 --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Audibility is very bad,

8 with lots of interference.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I continued to teach in

10 Rajlovac.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we seem to have some teething

12 trouble with the technical side.

13 Ms. Fauveau?

14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. Some accused also have

15 difficulties hearing the witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think, ultimately, it's a question of

17 setting the audio level on the right channel, but, yes, a technician is

18 coming by.

19 In the meantime, I would like the witness to answer his question

20 again.

21 Mr. Rakic, if you could repeat your answer, please, to the

22 question that Mr. Zivanovic put to you.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Rakic, I'll repeat it. For technical reasons, we couldn't

25 hear your answer well. Could you describe your career briefly?

Page 22180

1 A. After I completed the military academy, I worked as a teacher in

2 the military technical academy in Rajlovac until 1992.

3 Q. And after 1992?

4 A. Well, then --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Is it okay? I just want to make sure

6 that all the accused can hear.

7 Mr. Popovic, I think while usually under normal circumstances,

8 when we are in here, this leaving it here would work. In today's case, I

9 think you will need to have it closer to your ears. Okay.

10 We still have General Gvero and General Pandurevic. Are you all

11 right with the audio? Okay. Yes.

12 Sorry for this interruption. My apologies to everyone, but it

13 happens.

14 Mr. Zivanovic, if you could proceed, please.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rakic, tell me now about your career after

17 1992.

18 A. In 1992, I was in the army of Republika Srpska until 1998, and

19 then I was in the army of Yugoslavia until I retired in 2005.

20 Q. In which unit of the army of Republika Srpska were you from 1992

21 onwards?

22 A. I was in the Drina Corps, at the beginning, in the Milic Vlasenic

23 Brigade. Later, I was in the command of the corps from November 1993

24 until the end of the war.

25 Q. Could you tell me in what establishment position were you in

Page 22181

1 summer 1995 or more precisely in July 1995?

2 A. Chief of informatics in the command of the corps.

3 Q. Can you describe briefly your duties and responsibilities as

4 chief of informatics and computers in the corps command?

5 A. For the most part, it was a small section and most of our work

6 was to gather, process, and update information about members of Republika

7 Srpska who had gotten killed, members of the Drina Corps in our case; as

8 well as to analyse the requirements of command and other data, such as

9 personnel-related data and other information that the corps command

10 needed.

11 Q. Did you personally participate in combat operations related to

12 Srebrenica?

13 A. No.

14 Q. In addition to other things, did you serve as officer on duty in

15 the duty centre of the command of the corps?

16 A. Well, duty service, one of the regular duties according to the

17 roster applied in the corps. That roster was made for the current month

18 and the following month.

19 Q. I'll show you 1D767. That's a document under tab 2.

20 I would like you to look at the document and tell us if that's

21 what this roster of duty service in the corps command looked like.

22 Do you remember serving on duty, being the duty officer, on this

23 roster?

24 A. Well, there are no modifications, no changes, no alterations, and

25 I did probably. You can see my name here.

Page 22182

1 Q. Could you describe, briefly, the responsibility of the duty

2 officer in the operations centre of the corps? What did he have to do,

3 just very briefly, in the course of his stint, his tour of duty?

4 A. The operations duty officer is the person who coordinates the

5 work of the corps command and subordinated units in keeping with the

6 orders that apply on that day or have a longer period of validity. But

7 the basic duty is coordination, receiving information from subordinate

8 units, processing that information, and forwarding it to addressees in

9 the corps command. That is the basic responsibility of the duty officer,

10 to coordinate work between subordinated units and the corps command.

11 Q. Just some more information, if you could provide, about this tour

12 of duty. How long are you on duty?

13 A. Twenty-four hours. But most of the work is done in the morning,

14 and then you turn your responsibilities over to the team. You perform it

15 with the main documents governing the work of the operations centre, the

16 documents that have arrived for that day for the centre and for the

17 subordinated units; and, of course, you act as the situation requires.

18 In the course of the morning, regular reports from subordinated

19 units come in. These reports are processed. It was customary for the

20 officers in charge of various areas in the corps review these reports,

21 each concerning his own field of expertise, and then they are forwarded

22 to the operations centre of the Main Staff.

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, can we get his rank at the time?

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rakic, I'm sorry. I forgot to ask you about

Page 22183

1 your rank at the time.

2 A. Lieutenant-Colonel.

3 Q. There is another what seems to be error in the interpretation.

4 I'll have to repeat a question that you have answered.

5 When you were talking about the arrival of regular reports from

6 units, at what time of day?

7 A. Early evening, perhaps 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. - that's what I think -

8 in any case, in the afternoon, early evening; and then later in the

9 evening the compiled report to the Main Staff would be made.

10 Q. I have already shown you, but I will show you again, one

11 intercept. We don't have the log of duty service from the Drina Corps

12 from that time. We have some other documents that shed some light on the

13 activities of the duty officer for a certain day.

14 Could you please look and I'll show you certain documents that we

15 have, and I will appreciate if you answer from your memory, from your

16 best recollection. Just a minute.

17 Now, before I do that, let me ask you something else. Do you

18 know Vujadin Popovic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell me what were his duties at the time?

21 A. He was chief of the security organ of the corps.

22 Q. To the best of your knowledge, could you tell me briefly what

23 were the responsibilities of the chief of security of the corps? What

24 was he supposed to do?

25 A. He was to protect the commands of units, important structures and

Page 22184

1 features in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, to prevent

2 various terrorist groups, and that is part of his job description I gave

3 earlier.

4 Q. I have shown you earlier another intercept, an intercept of the

5 conversation you had with him; and it was allegedly intercepted by the

6 BH army.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, leading.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Couldn't be more leading than that.

10 Please rephrase your question, Mr. Zivanovic.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I'll do it.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me -- in fact, I'll show you one

13 conversation, P1201. It's in tab 1.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

15 Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. McCloskey, and Registrar, if you could, first

16 of all, identify this intercept by its exhibit number and also check its

17 status whether it's a protected document or not; in other words, whether

18 it's confidential or not.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't see a real problem, if we could go into

22 private session for one second.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session for a

24 while, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 22186

1 usually call you Rale?

2 A. Well, it's customary in the military to shorten one's last name

3 or alter it in some way; so my nickname was Raka or Rale.

4 Q. At the beginning of the conversation, it says: "I was up there."

5 Allegedly, Vujadin Popovic is saying that. How did you understand that?

6 "I was up there." What does it mean, "up there"?

7 A. On that day --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment, please.

9 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Unless he can be more clear about whether this is

11 possible or likely, any questions on these intercepts are going to be

12 speculation.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, what's your comments to that?

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is not speculation. I asked the witness to

15 say how he understand this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Provided, I think, as a question it is

17 legitimate. However, it stands to reason that the witness must be

18 forewarned that he can answer the question and should answer the question

19 only if he is sure of what he's about to say.

20 We don't want any speculation from you, Mr. Rakic. If you don't

21 know what was meant by that statement in this intercept, then you tell

22 us, "I don't know. I'm not in a position to answer that. I can only

23 speculate." Then we will move to the next question.

24 Yes, Madam Fauveau?

25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is a

Page 22187

1 technical problem. In e-court, could we have the second page in B/C/S,

2 because the document which the accused can currently see is not the

3 conversation in question.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Madam.

5 Do we have the second page now? I think so. Yes. We have the

6 second page now.

7 Mr. Rakic, can you follow Mr. Zivanovic's question which I am

8 going to ask him to repeat to you, please.

9 Mr. Zivanovic, if you could direct the witness to the part of the

10 transcript that you're interested in and repeat your question.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat my question.

12 Q. What was your understanding of Mr. Popovic's words when he says,

13 "I was up there"? What was your understanding of the term "up there"?

14 A. I understood it to mean that it was in the area between Zvornik

15 and Tuzla. There was combat on that day and the elevation there was

16 greater than in Zvornik, where this conversation took place. It had to

17 do with the area of combat of that day, which is Baljkovici.

18 Q. In this conversation, what was your understanding of the

19 word "boss"?

20 A. It had to do with the commander of the unit in whose area of

21 responsibility he was; that means the Zvornik Brigade commander,

22 Mr. Pandurevic.

23 Q. What about the expression, "Boss"? Was it something frequently

24 used in military parlance?

25 A. We frequently used that for commanders of units of the corps.

Page 22188

1 Q. In this conversation, he mentions -- he mentions an interim

2 report and he's asking to you confirm whether you received it.

3 Do you know what interim report it was? Can you recall that?

4 A. It was a report sent from the Zvornik Brigade at noon. The

5 situation concerning the Baljkovica area of combat was included, and it

6 was probably the most active and busiest combat of the year -- of the war

7 for that unit.

8 Q. At one point you replied, "All," or, "Everything." Can you tell

9 us what it meant?

10 A. That day, as the duty officer, I was monitoring all of the events

11 that had to do with that part of the front lines, since there was combat.

12 Part of the Zvornik Brigade was in a sandwich between the various units

13 at the Tuzla front and those units which were coming out of Srebrenica

14 moving towards the front lines held by the 2nd Corps, I believe. The way

15 I understood the report was that there was a lot of fighting with many

16 casualties.

17 Q. I will read out the next sentence of his, and you can follow

18 perhaps. You will see that between certain words, there are dots. We

19 were told that such dots are introduced when the operator, taking down

20 the conversation, cannot make out one or several words. It practically

21 means that some words are missing, and we have dots instead.

22 The sentence is the following: "Everything is as he had

23 written," and then dots. "I was there. I saw it for myself. Some

24 numbers were received." Dots. "Otherwise, it's not important." Dots.

25 Tomorrow, I'll be there. Please convey to the general," dots, "I

Page 22189

1 finished with the work.

2 What was your understanding of the words: "Everything is as he

3 wrote"?

4 A. The way it was put in the interim report. In the interim report,

5 it read that combat was fierce and that's how I understood these words:

6 Lots of fighting, many casualties, some data followed subsequently

7 testified of a great number of killed soldiers in the Zvornik Brigade.

8 Q. Do you know whether Popovic, in any way, was supposed to confirm

9 the contents of the report? Why did he mention the report of the Zvornik

10 Brigade commander to you?

11 A. I think Popovic had been given orders to go to Baljkovica area to

12 check the contents of the report and to see who from the Zvornik Brigade

13 had sent the report. His task was to verify the data.

14 Q. Further down in the conversation, just following the sentence I

15 read out to you, it says: "Some numbers, figures, were received."

16 Can you tell us what those figures pertained to?

17 A. You should have an order for assistance to the Zvornik Brigade on

18 the part of the Drina Corps. It had to do with the units that were

19 supposed to come to help the Zvornik Brigade, to hopefully reduce the

20 number of casualties and to assist them in that part of the theatre.

21 Q. Following that, it reads: "I finished with the work." What was

22 your understanding of what "work" that was that he had finished?

23 A. Touring the area of Baljkovica. He was sent there to verify the

24 data received in the report.

25 Q. Next, we have your words: "You finished" or "You are done." Was

Page 22190

1 that a question, a confirmation, of what he was saying? Can you recall

2 that?

3 A. No, no.

4 Q. Tell me what your interpretation was of his words, "Finished

5 everything"?

6 A. It had to do with the touring of the area of Baljkovica. That

7 was my understanding of it.

8 Q. That part concludes with the following words: "Tomorrow, I will

9 be there once I'm sure that everything had been taken care of."

10 Can you tell us what was it that was supposed to be taken care of

11 by the next day so that he could go back to the corps command?

12 A. I can only presume that he was to report personally to the corps

13 command concerning the events in the Baljkovica area.

14 Q. In the next sentence, it reads: "Until or by the time I arrive

15 there with some kind of transport."

16 Do you remember what that transport was about, and especially

17 what "from there" or "there" means?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Further down in the text, there is a sentence which reads:

20 "Mostly, there are no significant issues, but there were terrible

21 problems up there and what the commander had sent is largely that."

22 How did you understand that there were great problems there?

23 A. Since he was a security officer, there were no sabotage groups in

24 that particular territory; therefore, no direct threats to the security

25 of the Zvornik Brigade, since he was in their AOR.

Page 22191

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We don't have the

2 translation of the document.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know how I can help you there.

4 Let's proceed. Go ahead.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thanks.

6 Q. [Interpretation] This expression, "In a nutshell, that's what the

7 commander had sent," what would that mean?

8 A. That the document is correct.

9 Q. Next, we have a question of yours in which you ask: "Listen,

10 Vujadin, tell me whether anything has come in from Vidoje Blagojevic."

11 First of all, were you on a first name or second name basis?

12 A. First name basis.

13 Q. What people of Vidoje Blagojevic was he talking about -- were you

14 talking about? Can you recall off the cuff?

15 A. There should be an order of the corps commander on dispatching

16 parts of the Drina Corps units to assist the Zvornik Brigade. One of

17 those units was the Batajnica Brigade --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Bratunac Brigade.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There must be a document in

20 existence according to the reports that came to the duty office of the

21 Zvornik Brigade; and to the data we had in the early morning hours, in

22 the area of Baljkovica, there was fierce fighting, and the Zvornik

23 Brigade that was under a lot of pressure in that area required

24 assistance. There should be a document in existence regulating the

25 arrival of part of the unit of the Bratunac Brigade to the Zvornik

Page 22192

1 Brigade.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is error in transcript.

3 It is page 16, line 10. It was said Batajnica brigade. It

4 should be Bratunac Brigade.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about it. It was an interpreter's

6 mistake, acknowledged as such, and corrected. Thank you.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Now, tell me, when you said "Here, now," what did you mean? It's

9 also in this text. Do you see it?

10 A. You're asking me?

11 Q. Yes, yes. You see further on in the text that we have been

12 discussing, it says: "Here, now," meaning whether the men have arrived?

13 A. Whether two units of the Bratunac Brigade had arrived in the area

14 of Zvornik.

15 Q. All right.

16 Let me ask you now to look in what is tab 7 in front of you.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, for Judges' benefits and for record,

18 could you pronounce the 65 ter number as well, please?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'm trying to find it, Your Honour.

20 [Interpretation] It's the list that we added.

21 [In English] I think that it is the document from our one of

22 three documents added today to our Rule 65 ter list, and I could ask the

23 usher to put it on ELMO, if possible.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Have the documents --

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He has it. The witness is provided with the

Page 22193

1 documents.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But we need to follow, too, as Judge Kwon

3 rightly put it. The three documents are 1D1167, 1165, 1166. Those are

4 the three documents, and they are all Drina Corps command. One is dated

5 15 July 1995, the other one 16 July 1995, and the other one 18 July 1995.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is a document from 16 July 1995.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it should be 1D1167.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: As I understood you, the witness needs to refer to

10 the document behind tab 7. So for him, that's not a problem. But we

11 have still not 100 per cent identified the document for our purposes

12 here. I think it's 1165, but that's a suspicion that I have. Is it 1165

13 or isn't it?

14 1167, yes, 1167. All right. It is not translated, this

15 document, as yet.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry for inconvenience.

17 Q. [Interpretation] You've seen this document, sir?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.

19 Mr. McCloskey?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: If this is 1D1167, we do have an English

21 translation. I don't know if it's on e-court or not, but we can put

22 it -- well --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, is it also a Prosecution exhibit?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not.

Page 22194

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: We dug it up, though.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, I can read just two sentences from

4 this document.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed because we are losing more time this

6 way.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.

8 Q. [Interpretation] You have in front of you this document, and I'm

9 going to read it. Up in the heading, we read that it's the command of

10 the Drina Corps 16 July 1995, engagement of units to assist in combat

11 operations in the 1st Zvornik Brigade.

12 Are you reading this? Do you have that in front of you?

13 It's addressed to the commands of the 1st Bratunac Brigade,

14 1st Milic Brigade, 1st Vlasenica brigade, and it says: "Due to the

15 extremely complex situation in the area of defence of the 1st Zvornik

16 Infantry Brigade, it is necessary to reinforce this brigade with

17 personnel in order to prevent the link-up of enemy forces acting from the

18 direction of Tuzla with the units of the enemy pulling out from

19 Srebrenica via Kamenica towards Tuzla.

20 "In order to assist the 1st Zvornik Brigade, I hereby order the

21 command of the 1st Bratunac Brigade will allocate 1 00 men fit for active

22 combat. The commander of this unit will report to the commander of the

23 1st Zvornik Brigade by 1700 hours on 16 July at the command post at

24 Karakaj."

25 Do you see any connection between this and what you just said?

Page 22195

1 A. Well, that's what I just said. This telegram was sent at 12.47,

2 and the deadline for execution was very early, 1700 hours; that is, by

3 that time, the unit had to be already there in Zvornik. That's how

4 complex the situation was.

5 Q. In the following sentence, Popovic says: "It didn't arrive in

6 time and it wasn't brought -- inserted in time."

7 What does that mean, "It hasn't arrived in time and it wasn't

8 inserted in time"?

9 A. It means that this personnel did not arrive by 1700 hours.

10 That's the deadline given in the order you've just seen. It was already

11 getting dark, and they were not inserted into combat actions. They were

12 still being expected somewhere in the area.

13 Q. And then it says: "That's why this commander there had -- was in

14 trouble."

15 A. It's Tamborovic [phoen], the commander of the Zvornik Brigade.

16 He had trouble in combat operations.

17 Q. I see that you got in touch with the duty operations officer

18 after that, precisely with regard to providing more information about

19 these men.

20 What I want to know is this: Did anything in this conversation

21 concern prisoners?

22 A. No.

23 Q. At that time, when you were on duty that day, did you know

24 anything about prisoners in Zvornik at all?

25 A. No.

Page 22196

1 Q. And I'd like to remove one additional unclarity with regard to

2 this conversation.

3 Is it possible that in that conversation you introduced yourself

4 as Rasic?

5 A. No, it's not.

6 Q. Now I'm going to ask you about some other things that happened

7 and of which we have information that they happened in the course of your

8 duty. As I have told you, we don't have the logbook of the duty service

9 from the Drina Corps. We only have a few intercepted conversations from

10 that day and a notebook of the duty officer from Zvornik, from the

11 Zvornik Brigade.

12 And now I'm going to ask you to clarify some things for us about

13 all that.

14 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, Mr. McCloskey, just asking for

15 record, you wouldn't dispute that this conversation we looked at was

16 intercepted on 16th of July?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President -- sorry, Your Honour. Yes,

18 that's correct. It's a 16 July intercept.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm going to ask you to first look at the logbook of the duty

21 operations officer from the Zvornik Brigade. Actually, it's not a

22 logbook. It's a notebook which was not an official logbook of the duty

23 operations officer, which concerns that particular day.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The number is 377. It's a

25 Prosecutor's exhibit.

Page 22197

1 Q. It is under tab 9 over there among your documents.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In e-court, this is page 144.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the document before me, and

4 it's dated 16 July 1995.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. This is a handwritten document, is it not?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE KWON: Do you have the number in English?

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have the English page.

10 [In English] It's 25, page 25.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please tell me whether you -- and I'm

12 going to quote some of the notes that concerns Zlatar or the duty officer

13 at Zlatar.

14 Could you tell us please as much as you remember, and if you

15 remember some of those things? On the following page -- no, no. You

16 have the exact page but I'm referring to e-court.

17 On the following page, there is an entry stating something about

18 the interim report, Zlatar, signal given, it was acted upon the signal.

19 Can you see that?

20 A. "By 2030, everybody to Cer [phoen]," is that what you meant?

21 Q. Yes. Do you remember that perhaps?

22 A. No.

23 Q. On the following page, 5765 are the last four digits on that

24 page. It says: "At 11.30 from Zlatar, an unknown location before the

25 PK Defence of our line. This was what was communicated." Do you

Page 22198

1 remember whether this is you who communicated that?

2 A. No, I don't remember.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We don't have the English

4 translation of the original document.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. At the end of that page: "At 1250 ..." --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I provided the booth with the --

9 THE INTERPRETER: I apologise.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- with this document, so if they could please

11 make use of it.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies.

13 JUDGE KWON: English page 147, we are looking at.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 147.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The ERN' last four is 5765 for the booth.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. All right.

18 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In English, it is page 28.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay.

21 Let's move.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. At the end of this page, it says: "At 12.50, our package has

24 already left from Zlatar, and another package should arrive by 10.30.

25 This was communicated to the brigade IKM."

Page 22199

1 My question: Do you remember that you sent this message?

2 A. No, I don't. But judging by the order that you just quoted a

3 while ago, it was realistic to expect that this should arrive in the

4 Zvornik Brigade. Two parcels that we are talking about, they should have

5 arrived from Bratunac.

6 Q. Can you put this word "parcel" in context?

7 A. The units that were summoned to help Zvornik Brigade.

8 Q. On the following page, kindly look at that, it says: "Popovic

9 requested bus with a full tank to be sent and 500 litres of D-2. Zlatar

10 duty officer and Golic informed."

11 Do you remember whether you recorded that conversation? Do you

12 remember that request that fuel should be sent?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. I'm going to show you another telephone conversation. It is

15 1189, the Prosecutor's Exhibit 1189, and I'm going to ask you to look

16 under -- just a moment please.

17 Let me just try and find the place.

18 This is under tab number 12:

19 At 1358, this is not the first conversation but rather the second

20 one. At 1358, this is a conversation that was conducted between the duty

21 officer at Zlatar and the duty officer at Palma. This is at least what

22 it says here at 1358.

23 I'm interested in the first five lines of that conversation where

24 it says -- could you please read for yourself. You can read the entire

25 thing if you wish.

Page 22200

1 Please read, and then I'll have some questions for you.

2 A. Go on.

3 Q. Tell me, please, judging by the first five sentences in that

4 conversation, it arises from them that the duty officer called from Palma

5 and said that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic asked for 500 litres of D-2, and

6 this should be communicated to the duty officer at Zlatar.

7 Can you please tell me whether you remember any such conversation

8 and any such request?

9 A. But at the beginning, it says that the connection was transferred

10 not to the duty officer but to somebody else in the command. So the duty

11 officer at Zlatar never received this communication.

12 Q. My question was whether you received this message or not.

13 A. No.

14 Q. And now I'm going to ask you to go back to the logbook.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

16 Yes.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, if you do not identify the exact tab

18 number for Serb B/C/S, the accused cannot follow. The Judges can --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's in the interests of your clients actually.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I indicated the tab number to the witness.

21 JUDGE KWON: 1189, A, B, C, or whatever. You have to indicate

22 the exact publication broadcasting to the accused.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. It is C, C for English translation -- or

24 A, A. Sorry.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other thing is I understand, Judge Kwon,

Page 22201

1 and, Mr. Zivanovic, that this document is under seal.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I know, it's not.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Could someone check, because that's the information

4 I have. Because if it is, then we need to go in private session.

5 JUDGE KWON: As long as we do not broadcast this document, it

6 will be okay. But my point is the accused were not following this

7 intercept.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe that the accused can follow it.

9 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless we get the reference, the technicians, or

11 whoever is responsible, will not upload this document on e-court in a way

12 that the accused can then follow. This is the problem. This is why we

13 are telling you make sure each time you're going to refer to a document.

14 It's not enough that the witness over there has got a folder with

15 documents behind a tab number. That's not enough.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I can repeat this question and give you

17 exact letter of the document.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will be appreciated, Mr. Zivanovic.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's Prosecution Document P1189, A.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is English translation.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And there will be no broadcast of this

23 document while we proceed with it.

24 JUDGE PROST: We need the B/C/S, though. A is the English.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: A is English. B/C/S is C.

Page 22202

1 JUDGE AGIUS: C.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I could repeat my question.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, while we wait for the uploading.

4 Yes, we have it. We have it now.

5 Please, if you could kindly repeat your question, Mr. Zivanovic?

6 We need to go to the next page.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Rakic, I'm going to repeat the last few questions about the

9 document because not everybody in the courtroom could follow as we were

10 talking.

11 I'm, again, asking you to look at the conversation that took

12 place at 1358 and to tell me, please, whether you remember that you heard

13 that conversation. Now that you have read the record, do you remember

14 that you received from Popovic, or somebody else, a message that Popovic

15 was asking for 500 litres of Diesel-2 fuel?

16 A. No. But you can see in the document that the connection was

17 rerouted to another user. So according to the document, this was never

18 received by the centre and by the duty officer.

19 Q. Let's go back to the duty officer's logbook, i.e. the notebook of

20 the duty officer that we just saw a little while ago.

21 It says in it: "Entry 114, 1700 hours."

22 A. I have it in front of me.

23 Q. It says that a signal was given from Zlatar one night for the

24 sector where the commander is. Do you remember that you communicated

25 this message?

Page 22203

1 A. No, I had never communicated this.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get an ERN for the B/C/S page?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It continues like this all the time.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's the same page as previous.

5 JUDGE KWON: If you could read out the last four digits of ERN.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 5766.

7 JUDGE KWON: 148, English page.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is the next entry after previous one with

9 fuel.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The previous one was 147.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It was already shown to the witness.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Let us now look at the following entry at 1430

13 hours, where it says: "Reported from Zlatar that 30 of them are supposed

14 to come from Dobos [phoen] by 1600 hours, convey to the commander or they

15 will be attached to the commander."

16 Do you know what this refers to?

17 A. This refers to the order for the units to come and assist the

18 Zvornik Brigade, i.e. the troops of the Drina Corps from other units that

19 were supposed to arrive in the sector of the Zvornik Brigade.

20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Zivanovic. Could you check the

21 line 24 of previous page -- 26. You said 1700 hours?

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no, no, no. Just a moment, sorry.

23 JUDGE KWON: Is it 1417?

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 14 hours 17 minutes.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's proceed.

Page 22204

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

2 Q. [Interpretation] And now can we look at the last entry on that

3 same page. It says: "They called from Zlatar that the commander," I

4 apologise, "is to call the Zlatar duty officer or send -- that the

5 commander should call the duty officer at Zlatar or send a written report

6 on the situation in the field at 1525 hours."

7 Do you remember whether you perhaps asked for something like that

8 from the Zvornik Brigade at the time?

9 A. A report was asked because it was not known at the time what the

10 situation was at the Baljkovica sector.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Non-responsive.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Interim report was asked for.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a non-responsive answer.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct. That's correct, yeah.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And now can we move on to the following page. I'm not going to

19 ask you about the first things where the numbers of the battalions are

20 listed. I'm going to ask you about the entry at 1620 hours.

21 It says: "Message from Zlatar that one officer from the command

22 was to be sent immediately to the commander and send a written report on

23 the current situation, the agreement, and arrangements made with the

24 other side, immediately send Mijatovic."

25 Do you remember whether you conveyed this message from Zlatar?

Page 22205

1 A. No.

2 Q. Look at the following entry, where it says: "Message from Zlatar

3 that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic must go to Vinko Pandurevic in the field

4 at 1640 hours."

5 Do you remember if it was you who conveyed the message that

6 Popovic should go to Pandurevic on that day? Do you remember having

7 conveyed this particular message that we are talking about at the moment?

8 A. No, I can't remember.

9 Q. In the last paragraph of this page, it says: "30 soldiers came

10 from Vlasenica at 1705 and were sent immediately to the IKM in Kitovnice

11 as ordered. Zlatar was immediately informed and asked again whether the

12 report had come from the commander."

13 Do you remember whether you conveyed this message?

14 A. Yes. This part about whether he was informed, yes, because the

15 report came from the duty officer at Palma, informing us that soldiers

16 had arrived from Dobos [phoen], which means from the Vlasenica Brigade

17 units.

18 Q. On the following page, in the penultimate paragraph --

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise. Just

20 bear with me while I'm looking at the entry at 18 00 hours.

21 Q. Yes. Penultimate paragraph on the following page, it says:

22 "They asked from Zlatar if Vazic had received any assistance. It was

23 checked, and a response came that they haven't arrived yet but they are

24 expected around 1800 hours."

25 Do you remember who Vasic was?

Page 22206

1 A. He was the chief of the security centre in Zvornik; actually,

2 it's the Zvornik MUP.

3 Q. Do you know anything about the activities of the MUP on that

4 particular day?

5 A. On that day, Zvornik was threatened, and that's all. The

6 available forces were engaged, including the MUP units, to assist the

7 units between Snagovo and Baljkovica, on that line.

8 Q. Do you know, if on that day, some reinforcement was sent to them

9 as well? Do you remember that?

10 A. I only know that later we were informed that a MUP unit had

11 arrived from Doboj, I believe, and that they had problems as soon as they

12 entered combat.

13 Q. And now let's move on to the following page, the last paragraph

14 on that page, where it says: "Message from Zlatar that a parcel set off

15 from Badem. Half an hour ago, it was reported at 2015, reported at IKM."

16 Can you explain the nature of that particular parcel? Do you

17 remember?

18 A. Again, this was executing the order about a hundred fighters from

19 the Bratunac Brigade to be sent to the Zvornik Brigade. This is the same

20 parcel we already mentioned that was late in arriving.

21 Q. Can you now explain one thing? At that time, in the evening

22 hours of that day, there was no more fighting, the line had already been

23 opened. Do you remember, if you remember, why these soldiers, the

24 reinforcement, had been dispatched at the moment to assist the Zvornik

25 Brigade?

Page 22207

1 A. The order was sent earlier, around 1300 hours; and the intention

2 was to open the corridor and stop the possible breakthrough of the enemy

3 towards Zvornik.

4 Q. I'm now going to ask you to look at the following entry.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The page number is 5770, the

6 following page --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, I think it's time for the break.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's okay.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have the break now, 25 minutes, and then

10 we'll see. How much longer?

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe 15 to 20 minutes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Rakic, can you hear us? Are you receiving

16 interpretation of what I'm saying?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let's continue, Mr. Zivanovic.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recall -- I'll ask you just one more

21 thing concerning this, these books or notebooks of the duty officer of

22 the Zvornik Brigade. Well, it's the same page where you were.

23 In EDS, it's 33rd page of English, and 152nd page of B/C/S. [In

24 English] Sorry. [Interpretation] In e-court, I meant, not EDS.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get an ERN?

Page 22208

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 5770.

2 Q. [Interpretation] It's this entry at 2125, where information is

3 asked from Zlatar whether "self-propelled guns are still in our hands."

4 Do you remember passing on this information?

5 A. No, I did not pass it on.

6 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you about just one more intercept.

7 It's P1205. It's the last tab in your file, bearing number 15.

8 This intercept is from the 17th of July 1995, in the morning at 5.27.

9 Could you please read this first conversation, it's very short,

10 and then I'll ask my question.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's A and C in e-court.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this document is also under seal,

13 I'm being informed, so that there will not be any broadcast while we

14 process it. Thank you.

15 Go ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can go ahead.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You have seen a reference to your surname in one place here. So

19 I want to know whether you recall you had this conversation on that day

20 in the morning.

21 A. That was after wake-up. When the duty officer calls, the

22 commander calls subordinated units to see if anything extraordinary

23 happened during the night. That is from the last regular report.

24 Q. Mr. Rakic, I'm no longer going to show you these documents. I

25 just wanted to ask you about your knowledge in general, since you were in

Page 22209

1 the command of the Drina Corps at the time. Tell me first, do you recall

2 whether, in the combat activities around Srebrenica, the whole corps was

3 engaged or only some of the units?

4 A. Part of the units were involved in direct combat. Other units

5 were engaged in other segments of the front line.

6 Q. Do you recall if there existed in Srebrenica certain Muslim

7 forces?

8 A. Yes, they existed.

9 Q. And do you recall, approximately, their strength?

10 A. According to some information, they had 5.000 to 6.000 fighting

11 men.

12 Q. Can you remember what happened with these forces after the VRS

13 entered Srebrenica?

14 A. One part of them moved to join up with the units in the area

15 towards Tuzla, Baljkovica, where there were later some combat operations.

16 That was the part that pulled out from Srebrenica towards Tuzla.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm going to object to any more questions about

19 this. We received information that this witness would talk about one

20 intercept, the intercept about Popovic coming to the front lines. That's

21 all the information we've received, and we have received no proofing

22 note. So he's gone into many other intercepts and things that we at

23 least saw on his list of exhibits, so we at least saw that coming.

24 This area is completely new; and, frankly, I would object unless

25 I can get more information, and that goes for future witnesses as well,

Page 22210

1 if this is going to happen.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: These are general information about the units of

4 28th Division, about Muslim units, and the events which took place after

5 entering of VRS in Srebrenica; and the witness was the officer of the

6 command of Drina Corps and I just asked him about such questions.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you necessarily have to rely or refer to an

8 intercept that has -- you haven't given prior notice of to the

9 Prosecution to ask the question?

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, I finished with intercepts. Sorry.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. You could have asked a general question

12 without referring to the intercept for which the Prosecution had not been

13 prepared.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll not refer to any interception, any more.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I finished with confronting the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue. But point taken, and that applies

18 across the board to all Defence teams.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: All right. I'll reduce my questions, my --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it is not a question of --

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- the examination of the

22 witness.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, it's not a question of reducing or

24 augmenting the number of your questions. The point made by Mr. McCloskey

25 is you've been referring the witness to intercepts which were not

Page 22211

1 indicated by you when you provided the Prosecution with prior, advance

2 notice of what this witness will be testifying upon. That is precisely

3 what should be avoided.

4 The Prosecution should not be taken by surprise and have to face

5 questions on intercepts that were not on the list that were not indicated

6 as being intercepts on which the witness will be asked questions. This

7 is the point.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: All these intercepts are on the list.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But they were not indicated.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's true that I did not indicate in my witness

11 summary about it. That's true. I found it --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. They are on the list that has been provided

13 now.

14 Let's continue, please.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Were you aware -- no, no. I'm not going to ask you that.

17 Just tell me, please, how and when did you first learn of this

18 conversation that I have shown you, the conversation between you and

19 Popovic, and in what context. Do you remember that?

20 A. I believe it was just prior to the Krstic trial, when I first

21 found about it; and I found it on the internet later, this intercept.

22 Q. Have you ever had occasion or has anyone ever asked you about the

23 contents of that conversation, apart from Defence teams?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rakic.

Page 22212

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

3 Mr. Nikolic?

4 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 Ms. Nikolic, you had indicated that you don't have questions.

7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. We have

8 no questions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Mr. Lazarevic, you had requested about ten minutes.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. That's what we requested. But

12 after reconsidering and hearing his evidence here, we decided not to

13 cross-examine the witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

15 Madam Faveau or Mr. Petrusic.

16 Yes, Mr. Petrusic, go ahead.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The Defence

18 of General Miletic will have questions for this witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I said go ahead, because I anticipated

20 that.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rakic, good morning. My name is Nenad

23 Petrusic; and on behalf of the Defence team of General Miletic, I will be

24 asking you some questions.

25 You said that in the course of 1995, you performed certain duties

Page 22213

1 in the informatics section of the Drina Corps. Can you tell us whether

2 this section was part of the staff?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was your immediate superior?

5 A. The Chief of Staff was -- until July, it was Krstic, and later it

6 was General Andric.

7 Q. In that hierarchy, did Colonel Lazic had any superior

8 relationship towards you?

9 A. Only if he was standing in for the Chief of Staff.

10 Q. You said, furthermore, that in performing your duties in the

11 informatics section, for the most part, you entered data about persons

12 missing or killed and such; and I would like to know whether in the

13 course of making these statistics and putting them in the computer, you

14 also introduced information about the passage of humanitarian aid through

15 the area of the Drina Corps?

16 A. If I remember correctly, another section was doing that. If we

17 were making any reports about that, that would be compiled reports for a

18 certain period, like monthly reports, et cetera.

19 Q. So do you know about the existence of those monthly or annual

20 reports? Were they made?

21 A. Yes. Some sort of overview was made. Whether it was monthly or

22 bi-monthly or covered a longer period, I can't remember. It was a long

23 time ago.

24 Q. Did you participate in any way in issuing combat documents?

25 A. No, not directly in adopting combat documents.

Page 22214

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can I call up 5D1179.

2 Q. And in your bundle, Mr. Rakic, that would be under number P1179.

3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It must be a mistake.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it.

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Rakic, may I suggest that you look at the document P1179?

7 A. I don't have that document in front of me.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic, the witness is saying that he hasn't

9 got that document in front of him.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in e-court, this

11 document is marked 5D1175; however, the document that Mr. Lasic -- or

12 rather, Rakic should have is erroneously marked P1179. That is our

13 mistake, but he has it in any case.

14 JUDGE KWON: Is it 5D1179 or 75?

15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 79.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Rakic, have you managed to find it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't see it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is there a more practical way of doing

19 this? If we put the -- I don't know if the witness can see or can follow

20 documents from e-court, and I don't know whether -- no, he cannot.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, I will quote a part

22 of that document, and I don't think it will be a problem.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Petrusic.

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Rakic, I will take you back to an issue that Mr. Zivanovic

Page 22215

1 also asked you about, combat reports. Who made combat reports, both

2 daily and interim?

3 A. The person who directly made them was the duty operations officer

4 and assistant commanders responsible for certain areas; somebody from the

5 organ for logistics and the rear and the personnel man, the assistant for

6 morale and other members of the corps, other commanding officers in the

7 corps.

8 Q. Well, since you don't have the document 5D1179 that I wanted to

9 show you, this is a report from the command of the Drina Corps dated

10 26th of February 1994, number 0/5-109; and the person signed is Milenko

11 Zivanovic, Major-General.

12 It says: "For the purpose of more efficient control and command

13 and with the objective of maximizing assistance lent to subordinate

14 commands, I hereby order, point 2, the duty operations officer of the

15 corps command shall, before drafting the report to the superior command,

16 formulate the proposals made by commanding officers in the corps command

17 by organ ..."

18 And, in brackets, we see, "intelligence personnel, logistics,"

19 et cetera, brackets closed.

20 "... in the course of preparation; and after formulating their

21 report shall read it to the Chief of Staff, make a brief analysis, and

22 only then submit the report for signature."

23 So we can note that Major-General Zivanovic requires, by this

24 order, that either he or the Chief of Staff be the sole persons who can

25 sign such an operations report.

Page 22216

1 So, Mr. Rakic, do you agree with this statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know whether, in the absence of either or both of these

4 from the command, that is, both the commander and the Chief of Staff,

5 anyone else could sign that report, and who?

6 A. Well, that should have been the chief of the operations organ in

7 the corps command, chief of operations.

8 MR PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. President, if we

9 still have a problem with the documents provided by the Defence; but if

10 we don't, I'd like to call up 5D1011.

11 That document should be in the bundle of Mr. Rakic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Rakic, have you found this document?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the documents at all.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: How many folders do you have there? You must have

15 one definitely from the Popovic Defence team; and, as I understand it,

16 maybe one from the Prosecution. I would expect that; and one from the

17 Miletic Defence team. I am beginning to suspect that maybe he is mixing

18 the folders.

19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Maybe so, Your Honour, because we

20 did communicate to the Registry the binders for these two witnesses that

21 are supposed to testify by videolink.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I have no doubt about that, Madam Fauveau, and I

23 also noticed, I don't know if you did, but at one point he had one folder

24 which he moved aside, then he had a second folder which he moved aside;

25 and it seemed to me that the lady, Deputy Registrar, sitting next to him

Page 22217

1 was going through another folder. So he must have three folders. That's

2 at least what I could notice because I was precisely keeping a watchful

3 eye on what was happening. But I'm not in a position from here to see.

4 Have you identified the folder from the Miletic Defence team?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I still don't have that in front of

6 me.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: How many folders do you have?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is it, from Mr. Zivanovic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You seemed to have another one before. I saw two

10 anyway. That's another one. Who is that from?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is from the operations centre

12 of the Zvornik Brigade, the intercepts.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: That green --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is yours?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's just the duty officer notebook, translated

17 version, that's clear in case that became an issue; something that we

18 sent along.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And what does the Registrar, the lady, have

20 in her hand?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: She has got another one there.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This should be the folder. This is

24 it. Now I've got the documents.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Page 22218

1 Let's proceed now.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So this is document 5D1011. I

3 apologise, 5D1011.

4 Q. It should be a different document. Actually, it should be the

5 second document in the folder.

6 A. 042764969.

7 Q. No, Mr. Rakic. Look at the document from the command of the

8 Drina Corps. The last four digits are 8881. If you look at the top of

9 the document, you will see.

10 A. There is no marking, nothing. I don't have the document.

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm addressing the registrar over there.

15 Madam, it seems that the Popovic documents and the Miletic

16 documents have been combined in one folder; although, they are easily

17 identifiable. If you could please try to sort this out, we are going to

18 have a short break. In the meantime, as soon as you have singled out the

19 Miletic Defence documents, please communicate that to us, so that we can

20 restart and continue the sitting.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I correct myself. It seems that the

24 Miletic documents for this witness and for the next one, for

25 Mr. Blagojevic, have been mixed together; and, therefore, one needs to

Page 22219

1 know exactly which ones pertain to this witness and which ones to the

2 next. This is the problem that we have.

3 Yes, Madam Fauveau?

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think this is

5 the problem. First, they were given to the registrar in two different

6 binders; and for each witness, we have a list of documents. The only

7 mistake that occurred is for this witness, but it's just that the "5D"

8 had been turned into "P," but the number itself was correct.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

10 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If the registrar could see if there is a packet

12 from the Prosecution as well --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- because we can had a big packet that we gave.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: The one we saw earlier on, which you said that's

16 from the Prosecution, that was --

17 JUDGE KWON: Maybe the registrar there can address us.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. She is probably --

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is solving the problem in relation to one

21 document isn't the answer. We need to identify all the documents and

22 have them ready.

23 Madam Registrar over there, did you hear and did you follow

24 Mr. McCloskey's intervention?

25 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]

Page 22220

1 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not proceeding as it should.

2 Madam Registrar, can you hear me?

3 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm not hearing her.

5 Can you repeat, please?

6 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that all the others that

8 Mr. Petrusic will be referring to, that is, the total amount of all the

9 Miletic documents, are at his disposal. They are now?

10 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

12 And what about the Prosecution documents?

13 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But are they available? All right.

15 So let's proceed then. We don't need the break. Okay.

16 Let's carry on, Mr. Petrusic. Sorry for that interruption.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Rakic, you have the document. But before that, please, would

19 the command have to be provided with timely and objective information

20 about the situation on the battlefield through its subordinate units?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Please look at the document 5D1011.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I believe that there should be a

24 translation of this document as well.

25 Q. It was issued by the command of the Drina Corps on the 22nd of

Page 22221

1 June 1994. It's signed by the commander, General Milenko Zivanovic. The

2 title of this document is, "Incomplete regular combat reports, warning."

3 In the first paragraph, the commander says as follows: "As we

4 are following regular combat reports, the command corps is often -- the

5 corps command is often not in a position to form a good picture of the

6 real situation in the area of responsibility of the units. Although, the

7 structure of the reports has been established, comments and remarks are

8 sometimes very superficial, so that when reading the report, one cannot

9 deduce anything about the activities and the focus of work of the brigade

10 commands and their subordinate units. Very often, these reports are not

11 extensive enough, encumbered by enumerations, without any evaluations and

12 conclusions; especially, this concerns the monitoring the activities of

13 the enemy and its intentions.

14 And now we go on: "When it comes to making decisions at a higher

15 level, such reports do not provide us with an opportunity to formulate

16 our own positions and to make decisions that would be of any significance

17 in long term."

18 In other words, their useful value for operations and strategical

19 considerations is next to none.

20 My question to you is this: Did you, and I don't mean personally

21 you, but the command, know anything about such warnings that arrived on

22 the part of the commander?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In other words, the same measures should apply to both regular

25 reports and interim reports.

Page 22222

1 A. Obviously, we are talking about cross purposes.

2 Q. What I'm saying is whatever applies to regular combat reports,

3 their objectivity and timeliness should also have applied to interim

4 reports.

5 A. I wouldn't be able to give you a precise answer.

6 Q. Would the same rules have applied to the interim reports sent to

7 the superior command?

8 A. This order applies exclusively to regular combat reports, not to

9 interim combat reports.

10 Q. Irregardless of this report and independently of it, should the

11 interim combat reports also have contained objective and timely data?

12 A. Yes, they should have contained that.

13 Q. And did the same principle apply to interim combat reports when

14 it came to signing and informing the commander, the Chief of Staff, as

15 was the case with regular combat reports?

16 A. Yes, the same rule applied.

17 Q. Could you please tell us who -- actually, my layman's

18 understanding of the term "duty officer" is that there was just one

19 person involved.

20 Could you tell us whether there was a team on duty, or whether

21 there was just one person. Or maybe just one officer and his assistant?

22 A. In principle, the -- there was just one duty officer in the

23 operations centre and his assistant. And as for the other officers that

24 provided logistical support, there were others, the encryptors and the

25 other personnel, that facilitated communication with the either

Page 22223

1 subordinate or superior units, i.e., the superior commands, with which

2 communication was maintained.

3 Q. In other words, we are talking about the encryptors possibly a

4 courier who would have been engaged for urgent deliveries, a driver

5 perhaps. In other words, there were several persons involved?

6 A. Yes. But when you're talking about those people who were on

7 duty, there was just one duty officer and his assistant.

8 Q. You, as a duty operations officer, were on duty for 12 or 24

9 hours, or up to 1200 or up to 2400 hours; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that would have been the case.

11 Q. After that, you would have been replace bid your assistant; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the morning, before the duty operations officers handed over

15 duty to somebody else, would he have informed his successor by the

16 assistant of what had happened during the night?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You would enter all the relevant information about the events

19 that happened while you were on duty in the duty operations officer's

20 logbook; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 5D --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you repeat the number, please, Mr. Petrusic?

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 5D1180.

Page 22224

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it in front of me.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. This is a document issued by the command of the Drina Corps on

4 17 March 1994. Again, it was signed by the commander, Major General

5 Milenko Zivanovic.

6 General Zivanovic calls this document an operative duty warning;

7 and then in paragraph 2, it says -- actually, before, in paragraph 3, it

8 says: "I issued several orders to regulate the operations duty,

9 providing for it to be around the clock."

10 Then it goes on to say that: "On the 17th of March 1994, the

11 assistant of the duty operations officer of the Drina Corps called the

12 units to check the situation on the front line. He could not get through

13 to any duty officer in any of the units because the switchboard operators

14 did not respond. The conclusion would be that they were sleeping in

15 workplace."

16 In addition to that: "Over the past six months, combat reports

17 about the situation in the area of responsibility of the brigades sent to

18 the corps command as a rule is -- are signed by the operations -- duty

19 operations officer."

20 Mr. Rakic, my question is not whether you personally were aware

21 of this order; but, rather, whether you were aware of this phenomenon in

22 command of the Drina Corps, i.e. in the process of reporting to the Drina

23 Corps?

24 A. Not directly. But this kind of practice was discontinued, and

25 such reports were signed by the Chief of Staff and the commander.

Page 22225

1 Q. But you are not contesting the fact that there were such cases?

2 A. I can't say anything for a fact, because -- actually, the

3 situation was well known as such.

4 Q. Can we then agree, Mr. Rakic, that the duty of the duty

5 operations officer is one of the most serious duties and tasks in any

6 military, including the army of Republika Srpska?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In the course of your duty, for example, on the 16th of July

9 1995, as on any other day, when you were performing that particular duty,

10 did you also perform your regular duty as the chief of informations

11 department?

12 A. No. But that was because the offices of both were in the same

13 building. If something unusual cropped up, I could always deal with the

14 problems in that department, because the command and the operations

15 centre and the office of the informations department in the corps were in

16 the same building. But to answer your question, the answer would be no.

17 Q. So the rule would be that you would exclusively perform the

18 duties of the duty operations officer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you, as the duty operations officer, have the right to issue

21 orders; and if you did have that right, what orders could you issue?

22 A. No. I just had to coordinate other people's work and convey

23 orders; in other words, I could not issue orders.

24 Q. In other words, you could convey orders that came from your

25 command, from your commander?

Page 22226

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I would kindly now ask you to look at document 5D399.

3 A. I have it in front of me.

4 Q. Mr. Rakic, when providing your answers to Mr. Zivanovic's

5 questions, you said that you are an electrical engineer by profession?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I suppose, and this is just my assumption, I suppose that you are

8 very skillful when it comes to working on different computers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The Drina Corps did have a computer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I also believe that the fact is that very few people were trained

13 to use the computer?

14 A. Yes, you're correct.

15 Q. This document, 5D399, is an order for defence and active combat,

16 OPBR7/1, of the Drina Corps command, dated 8 April 1995.

17 And on the last page of this document, it says that it was

18 drafted by Colonel Milenko Lasic, typed by Ljubo Rakic in two copies; and

19 there is a block signature by Major-General Milenko Lazic.

20 Mr. Rakic, are you the one who typed out this document? Are you

21 the Ljubo Rakic mentioned here?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. This document was typed out on a computer?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was it you who typed it out because you could use the computer,

Page 22227

1 or was there any other reason for that?

2 A. I'm not sure that I can answer your question precisely. I see

3 that there is a marking here, "State Secret." Maybe that's one of the

4 reasons why I typed it out.

5 Q. In other words, in addition to your typing skills, i.e. the fact

6 that you can type, nothing else is yours in this document?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. This document was dictated to you by Colonel Lazic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This document was signed by Milenko Zivanovic; i.e. there is a

11 block signature for Milenko Zivanovic?

12 A. I don't know whether this is that document.

13 Q. When you look at this document, would you say that this is

14 Milenko Zivanovic's document, Commander Milenko Zivanovic's document?

15 A. I have the signed document in front of me. It says: "Commander,

16 Major-General Milenko Zivanovic," but there is no signature as such.

17 Q. There is what we call a block signature. My question to you is

18 whether this is his document or whether this is Lazic's document?

19 A. In subordination, whoever signs the document, it is his document.

20 Q. Very well, Mr. Rakic. Thank you.

21 We have another document which is -- which will bring us to the

22 very end. The document is 5D1184. Again, this document was issued by

23 the command of the Drina Corps, dated 13 March 1994; also issued by the

24 commander, Major-General Milenko Zivanovic.

25 Mr. Rakic, was Milenko Zivanovic the commander of the Drina Corps

Page 22228

1 from the moment of its establishment up to sometime in July 1995?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is an order which in its paragraph 1 says: "Members of the

4 units of Drina Corps, during the holiday of Bajram, will restrain

5 themselves from responding to the provocations of the Muslim army; and

6 they will stick to the level of activities which is called for by the

7 defence in serious attacks."

8 Number 2 says: "Convoys through our territory should pass safely

9 to their destinations, and the convoy escorts should be informed about

10 all the dangers from attacks or provocation that the Muslim side plans in

11 order to accuse us."

12 With regard to paragraph 1 of this order, did you have any

13 information or instructions from your -- let me ask you this first: Is

14 Bajram a religious holiday in Muslims? Are you aware of that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Second of all, did you have any instructions from your command,

17 not only in this case, but also in the case of other religious holidays,

18 Muslim holidays, to refrain from any activities or opening fire?

19 A. There were such instructions.

20 Q. With regard to paragraph 2, do you have any information that

21 there was no ban for convoys with humanitarian aid to pass through in

22 order to reach the Muslim population?

23 A. There was never a ban on their passing through the area of

24 responsibility of the corps.

25 Q. And, finally, if you can remember, could you please tell us who

Page 22229

1 were those people -- can you hear me?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. Who were those people that were on duty in the corps command?

4 What were their establishment positions; i.e., who was it who was not

5 able to be on duty in the corps command?

6 A. If I can remember it well, the security officer was not on duty;

7 the Chief of Staff either, because the duty officer was subordinated to

8 him; and the corps commander. And as for the others, they all should

9 have been on the regular rota of duty office as duty officers or their

10 assistants.

11 Q. What about the other assistant commanders, the assistant

12 commander for logistics, was he supposed to be a duty operations officer?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. Mr. Rakic, I don't have any more questions for you.

15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this brings my

16 examination to the end. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

18 Mr. Krgovic, do you have any questions? I suppose not.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: We have no questions, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa, the same for you?

21 MR. SARAPA: Yes, no questions.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

23 That brings us to you, Mr. McCloskey.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You can start your cross-examination.

Page 22230

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

3 Q. Hello, sir. My name is Peter McCloskey. I'm with the Office of

4 the Prosecutor, and I'll be asking you a few questions.

5 My first question is: Are you aware of a document that is from

6 March of 1995 that was sent to the Drina Corps, referred to as

7 "Directive 7"?

8 A. The document that Mr. Petrusic has just mentioned arose from that

9 Directive number 7, and I am aware of that on that basis.

10 Q. All right. So you had a chance to read Directive 7 as an officer

11 with the Drina Corps at the time?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You're saying you did not read Directive 7?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Did you type up the Drina Corps version of Directive 7, as you

16 did directive -- the Drina Corps version that you went over with

17 Mr. Petrusic?

18 A. Yes. But the wording of that text was dictated to me.

19 Q. And when you say "dictated," how do you mean dictated? Someone

20 told you orally or were you given the text in front of you?

21 A. An officer dictated it to me. The text was dictated to me. I

22 believe the person who did it was Colonel Lazic.

23 Q. And did he do it orally to you, or did he put the actual paper in

24 front of you for you to type in?

25 A. It was dictated.

Page 22231

1 Q. Did he -- again, did he read it out to you orally, so you typed

2 it up; or did he show you a written document of which to copy?

3 A. I don't have a very clear recollection, but I believe that it was

4 dictated; however, I can't give you a precise answer.

5 Q. And have you had a chance to review the Drina Corps version of

6 that that you typed in, of Directive 7, prior to testifying today?

7 You've obviously seen 7(1); you just talked about it with

8 Mr. Petrusic. Did you see your Drina Corps version Directive 7 that you

9 also typed?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you must recall reading the words that you typed on the Drina

12 Corps section that state --

13 A. I remember printing it so --

14 Q. Then you must remember the section in the Drina Corps part of

15 that Drina Corps document that states: "By planned and well-thought-out

16 combat operations, create an unbearable situation of total insecurity

17 with no hope of further survival or life for the inhabitants of

18 Srebrenica and Zepa."

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, before you answer the question.

20 Mr. Petrusic?

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor

22 keeps speaking of a directive of the Drina Corps. It's an order, not a

23 directive. That's the only thing I want to correct. And from now on, we

24 should be talking about an order.

25 JUDGE KWON: Or operative number 7, as translated.

Page 22232

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The same point was raised last week, I think.

2 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've called it the Drina Corps version of

4 Directive 7. I think that's clear. I don't want to --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed anyway. We all know what kind of a

6 document it is.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

8 Q. So you remember that -- that segment?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You typed it up, right?

11 A. Yes. But it was several pages, and I -- I acted just like a

12 person who types and makes sure that spelling is correct. I didn't go

13 into the contents.

14 Q. Well, let's talk about your memory a little bit. You've just

15 said, earlier, that you recall seeing the intercept between you and

16 Popovic for the first time around the Krstic trial many years ago; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes. And that document was later posted on the internet.

19 Q. And where were you living in November 1995?

20 A. In Vlasenica. I was in the corps command.

21 Q. Surely, then, you remember the public indictment of Ratko Mladic

22 for the events that occurred in Srebrenica in July 1995.

23 A. I did not see the indictment. I saw it only later. I didn't see

24 it in November 1995.

25 Q. Did you hear about the indictment of Ratko Mladic in November or

Page 22233

1 December 1995?

2 A. I did not.

3 Q. Did you see on television a VRS soldier from the 10th Sabotage in

4 1996 testifying about the mass executions at Branjevo farm, implicating

5 the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you didn't have any knowledge of the testimony regarding

8 Srebrenica that went out over the air waves or the indictment of General

9 Mladic regarding Srebrenica in 1995 or 1996?

10 A. I didn't say I didn't have any knowledge. I just said that, in

11 1995, I did not have that information. I learned about that later,

12 sometime later.

13 Q. When?

14 A. 1996, 1997. I can't be sure.

15 Q. So, I take it, in 1996, you were aware that The Hague had

16 indicted Ratko Mladic for a case that you were the duty officer for at

17 the Drina Corps, the day that all these events occurred, one of the days?

18 A. No. That was in 1995; 1996 was later.

19 Q. So, when you found out about the indictments and the charges, you

20 knew that you were the duty officer the day that this all happened,

21 didn't you?

22 A. What? What happened on that day? I was aware of combat

23 operations of the Zvornik Brigade in the area of Baljkovica.

24 Q. Nothing else happened on that day, as far as you know, 16 July

25 1995?

Page 22234

1 A. Right.

2 Q. You've had a chance to think about this ever since 1995 or 1996?

3 Remember the days when IFOR was running around Republika Srpska, so was

4 General Mladic, people were being arrested, people were being shot?

5 I'm sure you had a chance to think about where you were on July

6 16th, 1995, didn't you?

7 A. Again, I didn't understand the question.

8 Q. You're not aware that 1200 Muslim men and boys were summarily

9 executed on 16 July 1995 in the area around Pilica?

10 A. I was not. In 1995, I didn't know that.

11 Q. When did you first learn of that?

12 A. Much later, from the newspapers mainly. At that time, we found

13 out about things from newspapers.

14 Q. Did you believe it?

15 A. I did not. Numbers are variable. So I did not -- I was not sure

16 about the accuracy of all these numbers that appear in newspapers and

17 various documents shown.

18 Q. Do you believe Muslim men were summarily executed by the VRS

19 after the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995?

20 A. It's possible that something happened; but as far as the details

21 are concerned, I cannot speak of something I'm not entirely sure about,

22 especially the number of victims and such things. It's probably true

23 that there were killings, but I really don't know the details.

24 Q. You have been living in the world like the rest of us. You must

25 have seen the Krstic trial, the Blagojevic trial, portions of this trial

Page 22235

1 that are on television; isn't that right?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. And having that in mind --

4 A. Blagojevic, in fact --

5 Q. Okay. And having that in mind and the evidence that was

6 presented all throughout Republika Srpska and Serbia, do you sit here

7 today and tell us that you know nothing about what happened on those

8 days?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The witness didn't tell it as Mr. McCloskey

11 interprets his testimony.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

15 Yes, Mr. Josse?

16 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to add this in support of that objection.

17 Whilst this witness doesn't directly impact on our client's case, in our

18 submission, his belief as to what happened is really irrelevant. Anyone

19 can be asked about their belief. It's speculation and doesn't help the

20 matter at all. Whether he knows what happened on that particular day, as

21 the last question suggested, is perfectly legitimate; but the previous

22 question, we suggest, is inadmissible.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: You want to proceed with your question,

24 Mr. McCloskey, or do you want to move?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's not -- I would proceed with the questions.

Page 22236

1 This is cross-examination. There is -- given his responses, I don't see

2 one thing wrong with any of these questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?

4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

5 support fully the objections raised by my colleagues, but I would like to

6 add this: I don't think that this witness can comment on any of the

7 documents or exhibits shown to him that relate to other trials, because

8 he was not involved in these trials. We don't know what he's seen in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, first point.

10 And, second point, we don't know what he actually saw, so I don't

11 think that he can actually say anything about the Krstic and Blagojevic

12 trials, and he certainly cannot comment on these.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't try to testify instead of the witness,

14 please.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We have discussed it; and for the time

17 being, we ask you to proceed with answering the question that was put to

18 you. I'm going to read it out.

19 JUDGE KWON: Let him ask the question again.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I was going to read it out. Mr. McCloskey if

21 you wish to put the question again, or to reformulate it. We are talking

22 of lines 23 to 25 on page 57.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY:

24 Q. Okay, sir, I'll reformulate it. We both know that Krstic and

25 Blagojevic and this trial have been televised in large portions in

Page 22237

1 the RS. The evidence of that trial has been televised. You were living

2 there at the time. Knowing what you know about the evidence that was

3 broadcast to the RS --

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. I think we can go on. I think we got the clear message.

6 Now, you told Mr. Petrusic that the duty officer was one of the

7 most serious duties and tasks in any military. That was especially true

8 in the VRS, wasn't it?

9 A. It was one of the important positions in any army, and in the VRS

10 included.

11 Q. And like you said, it was your job to know what was going on in

12 subordinate units, such as the Zvornik Brigade, on the 16th of July?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And it's also your job to report that information up to

15 the Main Staff as well, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In fact, the duty officer, as you've stated, would be the one

18 drafting the regular --

19 A. Can I complete my answer?

20 Q. You can always explain your answers, sir.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think we should let the witness to complete his

23 answer.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. That's what we are going to do.

25 Mr. Rakic, can you complete your answer, please?

Page 22238

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that as far as the report is

2 concerned, yes, but in coordination with the chief, or rather, the

3 commanding officers of the corps who were in charge at the time. When

4 the report is written for the Main Staff, it is done in coordination with

5 the most important COs at the corps at the time.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY:

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to 16 July. General Krstic is the commander.

8 Where is General Krstic on the 16th of July?

9 A. In the area of Zepa.

10 Q. He's leading the combat in very hard-fought battles down in Zepa

11 on the 16th, isn't he?

12 A. According to my information, yes.

13 Q. And who was the Chief of Staff on the 16th?

14 A. Colonel-- or General Svetozar Andric.

15 Q. And he was with General Krstic during those Zepa operations on

16 the 16th of July, wasn't he?

17 A. I don't remember that detail.

18 Q. Well, do you remember him being around the headquarters on 16

19 July?

20 A. I said I didn't remember whether he was at the forward command

21 post or the command post. I really can't recall that.

22 Q. So, if Krstic wasn't there, and take my word for it, if Andric

23 wasn't there, who would be the senior officer around the Drina Corps?

24 A. It should have been the chief of operations and the assistant

25 commander for logistics.

Page 22239

1 Q. And who was that? Who was the chief of operations at the time on

2 16 July?

3 A. I don't remember the name.

4 Q. Well, describe him for us.

5 A. What?

6 Q. He was a career JNA officer, like yourself. I'm sure you can

7 describe him for us, if you can't remember his name; though, I got to

8 tell you, it's hard for me to imagine you can't remember the guy's name

9 who you worked with.

10 A. Well, first, at that time, certain changes had occurred in

11 organisation, so I don't remember who at that time was acting chief of

12 operations. Some changes had occurred, so that with the best of will, I

13 really cannot remember all the people.

14 Q. Well, we all know there are very few senior officers at the Drina

15 Corps at that time. So why don't you tell us who you think it -- who the

16 possibilities were?

17 A. It could have been Mr. Ignjat Milanovic. That's one possibility.

18 It could have been Mr. Andric, as Chief of Staff. And I don't know,

19 because Mr. Blazojevic had already become commander of the Bratunac

20 Brigade.

21 Q. Is there some reason why you can't remember Mr. -- or Colonel

22 Cerovic's name?

23 A. Colonel Cerovic was not chief of operations of the corps. He was

24 assistant commander for psychological operations and propaganda, in

25 charge of morale.

Page 22240

1 Q. Was he around on the 16th of July, around the headquarters?

2 A. It's very possible.

3 Q. Now, you also told Mr. Petrusic that a duty officer's job was to

4 receive information about what happened the previous day. Did do you

5 that when you took over duty operations officer for the 16th?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Petrusic?

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My question to this witness was

9 whether he had received information from his assistant, the next day, not

10 from his predecessor.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Yes. Go ahead. I think you can proceed

12 to your next question in any case.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY:

14 Q. Okay. So it must have been reported to you that on the 15th of

15 July, Colonel Ljubisa Beara had called the Drina Corps and that he spoke

16 with, first, General Zivanovic and then General Krstic. And he needed

17 more troops to help deal with, the Prosecution's position is, to help

18 murder thousands of Muslim prisoners that were still alive in the Zvornik

19 Brigade area.

20 It's very clear intercepts of those communications. This is

21 information that you needed to know about as duty officer on the next

22 day, wouldn't it have been?

23 A. This is the first I hear of it.

24 Q. Now, duty --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?

Page 22241

1 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour. Doesn't the witness need a

2 warning?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Josse.

4 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't want to do anything that may be viewed to

6 intimidate the witness whatsoever, but I think he certainly does.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think, at this point, we better give the

8 caution to the witness. All right?

9 Mr. Rakic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm listening.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We couldn't anticipate, of course, the line of

12 questions and the kind of questions that the Prosecution meant to put to

13 you. And as things are going, our attention has been drawn to the

14 possibility that some questions may be put to you which, if answered

15 truthfully, could expose you to some kind of criminal prosecution. You

16 stand protected against this kind of event under our rules.

17 Our rules provide that if, at any time, questions are put to you

18 that if answered truthfully could expose you, to incriminate you, to

19 expose you to possible criminal prosecution, then you can ask us, the

20 Judges, to exempt you from answering such questions. This is a right

21 that you have, but it is not an absolute right.

22 We have the option of either granting your request and exempting

23 you from answering such incriminatory questions or incriminating

24 questions or to reject your request. If we force you to answer such

25 questions, however, unless your answer, your reply to such questions,

Page 22242

1 constitutes perjury, then I can guarantee you, because the rules

2 guarantee you this right that you have, that whatever you may state in

3 answering such incriminatory questions, if you're forced to answer them,

4 then whatever you state will not be and cannot be used in any proceedings

5 against you.

6 Have I made this clear enough for you to understand?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So, therefore, now be careful.

9 Mr. McCloskey is going to ask you more questions. If at any time you

10 feel subjected to this condition, then you can intervene yourself.

11 Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

13 Q. Do you, when you were duty officer, review significant reports

14 that come in through the various subordinate units of the corps, such as

15 the brigades, the 5th Engineering Battalion, things like that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you hear about the regular combat report from the

18 5th Engineering Battalion from 14 --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- July? Hear me out.

21 Did you hear about the report from the 5th -- from the 14th of

22 July, from the Drina Corps 5th Engineering Battalion, where in it was

23 reported that: "Today, they had arrested and killed 1.000 to 1.500

24 Muslims," and they needed more fuel -- they needed fuel to help bury

25 them?

Page 22243

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This quotation is not correct.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you go further than that? Can you explain why

4 it's not correct?

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is no word "and."

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 Yes, Mr. McCloskey, if you want to discuss this in the absence of

8 the witness, we can ask him to remove the headphones.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can go to 65 ter -- we can just go to the

10 document, Mr. President. I was --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Does he have it in his folder or not?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, he does. But given the logistics, I don't

13 know. I can give the 65 ter number. It's 2672. It's page 1 of the

14 English which basically reads precisely as I had stated; and it's page 1

15 of the B/C/S under the top listing, "The enemy."

16 Q. Sir, is anybody able to show that to you? It starts off with,

17 "the Command of the 5th Engineering Battalion," up in the left-hand

18 corner.

19 A. I only have the English version.

20 Q. Check the back. There should be Serbian back there. You see the

21 document I'm talking about?

22 A. Yes, I can see that.

23 Q. That's a regular combat report from the 5th Engineering

24 Battalion?

25 A. It says "14 July 1995." That's the date.

Page 22244

1 Q. Correct. That information in paragraph 1, you must have been

2 aware of that when you became duty officer on the 16th, right?

3 A. During the takeover of duty, you look at the orders that regulate

4 the activities of the units on that day, and you also look at the reports

5 for the preceding period, for the previous day. This is the obligation.

6 Because of the activities that were taking place at the time and

7 the coordination that ensued from that, because of the combat activities,

8 I did not look at the documents that preceded that. So I was limiting

9 myself to the immediate dates, the days that pertained to the 16th. This

10 is what I looked at, our combat report to the staff of the 15th and the

11 reports that had to do with the 15th of July, nothing before that.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I think it's break time.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's have a break now. How much longer do

14 you --

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll be finished today.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. This means that if the other

17 witness is present over there, he won't be required to testify today.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The second witness is waiting to testify.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why. One further question, Mr. Zivanovic:

23 Do you plan a redirect or not at this moment?

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Maybe, maybe. I cannot tell you right now.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic? No, Mr. Petrusic has no redirect.

Page 22245

1 You're right.

2 So let's have a break, 25 minutes. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Witness, I want to take you back to your last answer briefly.

8 You, basically, say that when you take over duty, your obligation is to

9 look at -- well, be aware of the day you're taking over.

10 Then you say: "The day that is pertain to the 16th, and this is

11 what I looked at, are combat report to the staff of the 15th and the

12 reports that had to do with the 15th of July, nothing before that."

13 Okay. So the 15th of July is something that you would have

14 focused on, and I'm sure you would have focused on interim combat reports

15 from Vinko Pandurevic from the Zvornik Brigade given the situation up

16 there, right?

17 A. Yes. Are you referring to the 16th, because that's what I'm

18 referring to, the 16th.

19 Q. Sir, you said the 15th in your previous question, that would you

20 look at the 15th as the day before. You want me to read it back to you?

21 A. Can I please see that document? It is possible that I saw it,

22 but --

23 Q. Well, my question was is that you would be focusing on documents

24 or daily combat reports from the 15th, as you've just stated in your

25 previous answer.

Page 22246

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Surely, after all these years and listening to this case, you

3 would have been able to remember being at the brigade command on the 15th

4 when Vinko Pandurevic's interim combat report came in that evening around

5 7.00, 7.25 p.m.?

6 A. I can't remember the details of that.

7 Q. You say you know nothing about prisoners in the Zvornik zone, yet

8 surely, sir, you recall when Vinko Pandurevic reported large numbers of

9 prisoners in the schools located in his area that evening?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. May we see this document?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: This document should be etched in everybody's

13 head.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Go ahead.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY:

16 Q. Can you answer the question, sir?

17 A. I can't. I may have seen the document, but I did not pay any

18 attention to the details of this document. I'm not saying that the

19 document didn't arrive. I'm not challenging that. But what I'm saying

20 is that I did not pay much attention to the details of it.

21 Q. But you knew that Vinko Pandurevic was facing thousands of

22 Muslims from his rear, an equal number from his front, and his report of

23 large numbers of Muslims to deal with, as well, certainly would have been

24 something you would have remembered in that context, if for nothing else

25 to assist Mr. Pandurevic.

Page 22247

1 A. The whole communication conducted by the duty operations officer

2 boiled down and the work concentrate on the units from Srebrenica and the

3 possibility to link up with Zvornik from the side of Tuzla, and the whole

4 communication that was conducted by me as the duty operations officer and

5 the duties operations officer at the Zvornik Brigade was dealing with

6 finding a solution to the situation with regards Zvornik, i.e., to remove

7 the threat from Zvornik. That was the focus of the activities and

8 communications that the duty operations officer was focusing on, on that

9 day.

10 Q. So you're focusing on the 28th Division, but you didn't know that

11 maybe 7.000, 8.000 members of the 28th Division --

12 A. Yes, the part --

13 Q. But you're telling us you didn't know that on 16 July, some

14 7.000, 8.000, maybe more, members of the 28th Division were either dead

15 and buried or waiting to die? You didn't know anything about that?

16 A. We had information about 5.000 to 6.000 fighting men that were on

17 the strength of the 28th Division that you have just mentioned in

18 Srebrenica. That's the part. And the similar group was moving from the

19 direction of Kamenica, or rather, in the direction of the part of the

20 front line of the BiH army corps that was later encountered in

21 Baljkovica.

22 Q. Well, let's go to the women and children, then, if you don't know

23 anything about the dead and dying. The women and children of Potocari,

24 the thousands of them, what happened to them on the 12th and 13th? You

25 were at the brigade command right there in Vlasenica.

Page 22248

1 A. Your question is not very precise. The corps command in

2 Vlasenica was the Vlasenica Brigade. So what is your concrete question?

3 As far as that part is concerned, as far as I know, a transport was

4 organised for the children and the women, by appropriate vehicles, and

5 they were all sent in the direction of Kladanj.

6 Q. Which was right past your corps headquarters?

7 A. The distance between the corps command and the road is relatively

8 small, but there is no optical visibility. There is no line of vision

9 between the corps command building in Vlasenica and the road.

10 Q. But you knew that many, many buses were going right by the corps

11 command carrying thousands of women and children and old men, right?

12 A. Transport of women and children or civilians, in general, was

13 organised in the direction of Kladanj. I'm repeating my previous answer.

14 Q. And where were the military-age men that had been with those

15 women and children on the 12th and 13th?

16 A. That part of the column had been formed and was moving towards

17 the front line of the 2nd Corps which was later on where combat

18 activities took place, according to the information that I have.

19 Q. So you're not aware that well over a thousand able-bodied men

20 were separated from their familiar lies, right there in Potocari, right

21 on video. It's on video. It's on video that's been played in this case

22 over the years several times.

23 You were not aware that military-aged men were separated in

24 Potocari; is that what you're telling this Court?

25 A. I did not say that subsequently, when I saw the video footage, I

Page 22249

1 did not see that. But I'm talking about precisely at that particular

2 date, the 16th, July, 1995. I'm talking about that. I'm not talking

3 about what we could see in 1999, 2000, or some other subsequent years.

4 And, second of all, in 1996 -- since 1996, I've not resided in

5 the territory of Republika Srpska, so that a lot of that material was

6 never available to me. I was never in a position to see them, and that's

7 one of the things that you have to bear in mind. Since the month of

8 April 1996, I have not resided in Republika Srpska and have not stayed

9 there for any longer period of time.

10 Q. Let's go to 16 July, then, if you want to go back there, to 65

11 ter 1189A. It's 1189C in the B/C/S. I want to go to page 1.

12 This is and intercept. I believe you went over it briefly. It's

13 from the 16th of July at 1358 hours. This is the intercept that talks

14 about Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic requesting 500 litres of fuel. You've

15 already told us that you didn't know anything about that.

16 So are you saying even though you were duty officer that day, you

17 don't know anything about this 500 litres of D-2?

18 A. If you followed the sequence in the document, he needs somebody.

19 C, answer: "I need the duty officer at Zlatar."

20 So there is no question that there was a connection between him

21 and the duty officer. In this document, you can see that the connection

22 has been rerouted to the duty operations officer. There is no doubt

23 about that.

24 Q. Well, I'll agree with you that it's not clearly involving the

25 duty officer. Clearly, it's involving other folks. It's involving the

Page 22250

1 switchboard operator clearly. It's involving a guy named Basovic

2 clearly, and it's involving a guy named Golic.

3 Let's start with Basovic. Did such a Basovic exist in the Drina

4 Corps at the time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was his job?

7 A. He was in charge of technical services with the logistics

8 department.

9 Q. So he would handle fuel?

10 A. Yes. Technical services were those that were supposed to

11 regulate the delivery of fuel from the logistics department, with the

12 approval of a superior officer.

13 Q. That was my next question. Basovic, on his own, cannot

14 distribute 500 litres of this very valuable fuel without the approval of

15 a superior officer. What superior officer would that have been at this

16 time?

17 A. The assistant for logistics, I believe, was Colonel Acanovic, but

18 you should read the document. In one part, it says that some of it has

19 been loaded, 500 litres of oil has already been loaded. So that is

20 probably part of that. Actually, two tonnes have been loaded, and those

21 two tonnes are already on route to Zvornik.

22 Q. Can an assistant commander such as Acanovic -- well, remind us

23 who Acanovic was at the time?

24 A. I believe that he was the assistant for logistics in the corps.

25 I believe that that was his role at the time.

Page 22251

1 Q. As assistant commander for logistics, could he approve on his

2 own, without going to his commander, 500 litres of fuel to go out to a

3 brigade?

4 A. If it was part of the planned activities, then it is possible.

5 These two tonnes could have been part of the plan. If not, then he

6 should have consulted the corps commander or the Chief of Staff.

7 Q. Well, given that Popovic is calling up and asking for this fuel,

8 we can see that this plan, that it was not incorporated is immediately

9 part of the plan. So now let's see. We have got Basovic, logistics guy

10 involved; we've got the assistant commander; and we've got his commander.

11 So the assistant, that would have been Krstic or someone else that was in

12 command at the time, right?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you answer that question.

14 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just like to object because Popovic was

16 not part of this conversation. He was not collocutor in this

17 conversation.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can all see that this is involving

20 Popovic, and there is other evidence that I'm referring to where Popovic

21 is calling, asking for this fuel, and that's clearly been established.

22 It's not my intention to bring up every single document and put it on the

23 screen when I refer to it.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You can easily rephrase the question by

Page 22252

1 altering the first two lines, Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay thank you.

3 Q. Looking at the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook, there is a

4 notation at ERN 5766 at 1400 hours. This is 65 ter 377, and it says:

5 "At 1400 hours, Popovic requested a bus with a full tank and 500 litres

6 of D-2." Then it says: "Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed."

7 So let's go over a bit who knows about this. First of all, we

8 have got Popovic that calls, according to the Zvornik Brigade duty

9 officer notebook; then there is -- in the intercept of 1189, there is a

10 discussion with Basovic about it; and then it flips on to a discussion

11 with Golic about it.

12 And you can see on the second page of the B/C/S, a reference, it

13 says: "Golic, Pop just called me and told me to contact you. 500 litres

14 of D-2," et cetera, et cetera.

15 So remind us who Golic is, the next participant in this

16 situation.

17 A. From this document, yes.

18 Q. Sorry. You got cut off a bit. Can you tell us who Golic was at

19 the time?

20 A. He was an intelligence officer at the local intelligence organ.

21 Q. Was he present on 16 July in the Drina Corps?

22 A. According to this document, yes.

23 Q. Okay. So, on the 16th, we have a situation where neither Krstic

24 nor Andric are at the corps; they are in Zepa. And we've got a situation

25 with fuel where Basovic knows about it; assistant commander should know

Page 22253

1 about it; their commander should know about it; the intelligence officer,

2 Golic, has been informed.

3 Think back, sir. You remember this?

4 A. What specifically? Can you ask me a specific question?

5 Q. The fuel, what was the fuel used for?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. You remember the fuel now, though, don't you?

8 A. No. I only remember from the documents that I see that the fuel

9 was requested. From this document that I'm showing you, your

10 number 5443, I can see that from the two tonnes that were loaded up

11 there, I suppose that is the fuel planned for the Zvornik Brigade,

12 according to this request.

13 Q. Who is Colonel Trkulja?

14 A. I think, at that time, he was in the Main Staff. He's not one of

15 the commanding officers of the Drina Corps, therefore.

16 Q. Do you remember him coming by the Drina Corps on the 16th?

17 A. We did not meet.

18 Q. Do you know what Cerovic meant when he called up the Zvornik

19 Brigade and said: "Trkulja was here, and it's time to do triage on the

20 prisoners," something to that effect?

21 A. No, no. These are questions you should ask of someone else. I

22 don't know.

23 Q. What did you do the next day, 17 July?

24 A. I think I was at the command of the corps, on my regular duties.

25 Q. Let me take you to an intercept. Perhaps this will refresh your

Page 22254

1 recollection. It's 65 ter 1223A. It's 1223C in the B/C/S. First page,

2 it's from 17 July, 1554 hours. Is someone able to show that document to

3 you in Serbian?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you have that document that starts off with: "Hello? Can I

6 help you?" Colonel Cerovic.

7 Then X says: "Tell me, is Colonel Rakic there?"

8 Is that the one you're studying?

9 A. I see that, yes.

10 Q. Okay. Well, just take a minute and read down through there. I

11 think you can see that they are looking for you, and somebody puts you

12 through, and X says, "Hello, Raka."

13 You see that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. You testified in direct examination that you had two nicknames,

16 Rale and Raka. So does this -- is this you, as far as you can tell?

17 A. Possibly, possibly. I think that -- I think that's me. I think

18 that's me. But this is the 17th. It's possible I was in Zvornik. I

19 wouldn't go as far as to dispute it.

20 Q. Well, tell us where you -- having looked at this, obviously, at

21 1554 hours, you're off somewhere. You're going up there. Perhaps, if I

22 can show you a vehicle log, you'll remember, but why don't you try to

23 remember on your own?

24 A. "Up there" probably means the building of the command in Zvornik,

25 to see Cerovic or something. That's a possibility as such.

Page 22255

1 Q. You think you went to Zvornik to see Cerovic on the 17th?

2 A. No. I mean that I came to Zvornik, for what reason I don't know,

3 but maybe Cerovic asked me to see him.

4 Q. Do you know someone named Radoslav Pantic?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. Who is he?

7 A. He was in the Zvornik Brigade in charge of the transport section,

8 or something like that.

9 Q. Well, think about him on the 17th in Zvornik - and I'll show you

10 another document while you're thinking - and see if you can remember what

11 you were doing. Do you remember going to see Pantic on the 17th?

12 A. Well, Pantic was at the building of the command.

13 Q. Sure, he was, but do you remember what you were doing then on the

14 17th?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Well, let's take a look at one last document, 65 ter 295.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's page 117 in the B/C/S. I believe it's --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- 117 in the English.

20 Q. It's just a -- it's a vehicle log from the Zvornik Brigade that

21 shows you the last piece of this puzzle. It's got your name on it and

22 Pantic's; and as you can see, it says it's going from Zvornik to Loznica

23 over in Serbia.

24 Can you tell us, did you go to Loznica that day?

25 A. It's possible, because my father was in hospital, had been in

Page 22256

1 hospital for a long time in Loznica. He died very soon after that,

2 unfortunately. It's possible. It's possible that I went to see my

3 father. That's a possibility.

4 So I'm not saying it's not possible; although, I'm not quite

5 sure. But I think that if we went to Loznica, it was to see my sick

6 father in hospital who died soon afterwards. So I'm not saying it's not

7 true.

8 Q. But you can't remember, not even about your father?

9 A. Well, he had been hospitalised for a long time. I didn't go to

10 see him very often, so it's possible that on that day I did go to see how

11 he was doing. That could be the reason, but I cannot tell you the

12 precise date because it was a really long time ago. It's one of the key

13 reasons why I'm saying this.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 Mr. Zivanovic?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have no questions for the witness, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

19 So, Mr. Rakic, can you see me?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Your testimony ends here, unless my colleagues

22 would like to put questions to you, which is not the case. So we haven't

23 got any further questions for you. I wish to thank you for having

24 accepted to give evidence; and on behalf of everyone, we wish you a safe

25 journey to wherever you are going from there.