1 Friday, 29 August 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are here. From the
9 Defence teams, I only notice the absence of Mr. Haynes. Prosecution,
10 it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer and Mr. Vanderpuye.
11 All right. Is there a reason why the witness is not in the
12 courtroom as yet? Are there preliminaries? Yes, Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
14 Honours. Good morning, everyone.
15 We did want to raise one preliminary with the Trial Chamber.
16 Things have -- got a little interesting yesterday and since, and I'm
17 going to sort of work with my colleagues here. I'm sure if I'm entering
18 into areas that they're not comfortable with me raising with the Trial
19 Chamber, they'll let me know. But out of an abundance of caution, given
20 the Court's decision to call back the prior witness, given some further
21 investigation that was conducted in light of what that witness testified
22 to, that investigation also being conducted after the court session
23 yesterday, we developed some additional evidence.
24 So one of the things we want to do is get an idea from the Trial
25 Chamber just generally what the procedure will be and also to advise the
1 Trial Chamber what -- frankly how I intend to proceed with the
2 cross-examination of the witness upon some of this new information just
3 so that there's no mystery.
4 I've CC'd the Trial Chamber's legal officers last night with
5 respect to the new investigation which was conducted with respect to this
6 issue. I do not know whether this new issue is something that is of
7 interest to the Trial Chamber with respect to recalling the witness.
8 That is why I went ahead and forwarded it to the legal officers.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, sorry to interrupt you like this, which
10 is not exactly our style, but if -- there seems to be a mysterious shroud
11 before you started your intervention. It has certainly become much more
12 obscure and cloudy. We don't know what you are talking about. We have
13 not had any communication from our senior legal officer. The only
14 information, additional information that we have is that there is an
15 addition to your list of exhibits. That is the only thing that we know,
16 something that has to do with the Hotel Fontana, but that's about it.
17 Otherwise, we have no further information. We don't even know --
18 although I have had my usual morning meeting with our senior legal
19 officer, he hasn't even informed me that he received anything from you.
20 So what I suggest, I don't know, because there is another tale to
21 it. It seems, if I'm reading you well, that you would like some time to
22 have a word with your counterpart, with Mr. Ostojic, if I understood you
24 MR. THAYER: I frankly don't think that's necessary. I mean,
25 I'll be happy to hear from my friend. I think the Prosecution's position
1 is pretty clear from the supplemental information report that we
2 disclosed last night. But I'm happy, as I said, to advise all parties
3 where I intend to proceed with the cross-examination.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We have no clue as to where you are heading.
5 MR. THAYER: Okay.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but Mr. Ostojic, would you like the floor?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: If I may, I'm not sure if he is completed.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, yeah, of course. By all means.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. It's just not true
10 what he says. I sent him an e-mail. He knows that this Trial Chamber is
11 very interested in this topic. It's disingenuous to suggest and to keep
12 playing these games. He knows what his investigator did was wrong, and
13 he should tell the Court that right now, and I wrote him an e-mail what I
14 thought he should do this morning to the Court, to the witnesses, and to
15 all the lawyers here. He knows about the Orient Express restaurant.
16 It's a long-standing restaurant. He has pictures of it. He sees
17 plainly, clearly on its face where it's written, when it was first
18 established. He asked the question yesterday that mischaracterized the
19 facts by using the word "this new restaurant." I objected and I was
20 rejected by this Court on that objection. That's misleading. The 1988
21 restaurant was not new. The Orient Express at Victoria Station, which is
22 new Belgrade
23 1993. They had that. I want their investigator here so that I could
24 query whether or not he investigated it thoroughly like their other
25 investigators or whether he uncovered this supposedly at 3 o'clock after
1 our hearing. He shouldn't have been allowed to ask that question under
2 any circumstances. The witness was able to say what she did on the
3 transcript. You're invited to look at it. Mr. Gavrilovic told us
4 yesterday, new Belgrade
5 should bring a map on not tell us in e-mail that these are neighbourhoods
6 next to each other. They're not neighbourhoods. They're far away from
7 each other, Zemun and new Belgrade
8 it's disrespectful, and quite frankly, it's dishonest. I'm offended. If
9 it continues, I am going to withdraw from this case.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, by way of an exception to the
11 rule, we are giving you the floor.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: And I object to the exception as well.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, and I am not speaking for
15 anyone but myself on this. This kind of conduct must stop.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm not going to listen to this. I'm not.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, but he --
18 MR. OSTOJIC: He has an -- he doesn't need to attack me.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, please. Please. You may be able to
20 do and behave like this in Chicago
21 and --
22 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm going to make my record, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please sit down. Please sit down.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: If he has a problem with my conduct, he can bring
25 it with the --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, please sit down, and you will have the
2 floor when the Trial Chamber gives it to you.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: When I say this, Your Honour, I will say it
6 briefly, the conduct attacking the honesty of the Prosecution must stop,
7 and that's all I want to say. Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you have an explanation, Mr. Thayer, please?
9 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Your Honour. This was what I was trying
10 to accomplish with the Court was to let the Court know what happened
11 yesterday afternoon to place in context what I'm going to do on
12 cross-examination with this witness. And my concern was that that might
13 be related to the Court's decision to bring back Gavrilovic, so I didn't
14 want anybody to be taken by surprise if the Court had in mind certain
15 avenues it wanted to pursue with this witness.
16 What we did yesterday was follow up on some information that I
17 received in the middle of my cross-examination of the current witness.
18 The Court will recall that the prior witness, Ms. Gavrilovic, at page
19 24762 of the transcript, referred for the first time anywhere to the -
20 and I'm quoting here - "Newly opened restaurant in new Belgrade
21 looks like a carriage of the Orient Express train. I remember that
22 remark of his very well..." referring to the husband of the current
24 She then returned to this recollection of hers upon further
25 cross-examination. By the way, she made the prior comment, I believe, on
1 direct examination, and then she returned to that comment upon
2 cross-examination yesterday morning at page 24787 of the transcript. She
3 did remember because Toma her husband was making jokes about her failed
4 trip on the Orient Express by saying that "there was a newly opened
5 restaurant in our city named the Orient Express and it's decorated in the
6 same way, and he told us to go there and imagine that we were on the
7 trip." Again, this was new information that we had never received before
8 that surfaced during the course, first, of the direct examination of the
9 witness and then during Mr. McCloskey's cross.
10 So yesterday during my cross-examination one of the investigators
11 looked into Express, Orient Express, and what he came up with was Balkan
12 Express and the information with which I cross-examined this witness
13 yesterday pretty much on the fly.
14 Following the Court session, we made further inquiries to see
15 whether there per chance may have been other similar restaurants in
17 was a restaurant by the name of the Victoria Station restaurant, which is
18 in new Belgrade
19 carriage and so forth, and we discovered that that had been opened in
20 1993. We also discovered -- and this is based on one article that
21 reviewed these three train carriage restaurants; I guess there was some
22 effort to promote this style of dining. We discovered that there was a
23 third restaurant that was across the river that had been open for 30
25 Based on this article, we sent out an investigator in Belgrade
1 interview whoever they could find at both the Victoria Station restaurant
2 and the Balkan Ekspres restaurant to find out more information. As the
3 Court heard yesterday with respect to the Balkan Ekspres restaurant, as
4 it says on its own website as we saw from the sign, it was founded in
5 1998, and that was confirmed by the person with whom the investigator
7 At the Victoria Restaurant
8 the Orient Express Restaurant on occasion, we were told that it has been
9 open continuously since 1993. We were discovering all this information
10 late yesterday afternoon and into the evening. Naturally, we put that
11 into an information report late last night. I copied the article that
12 the investigator located which discussed these three restaurants. We
13 even downloaded a Belgrade Yellow Page page which refers to the Victoria
14 Station restaurant as the Orient Express, and we disclosed that last
15 night to counsel with the additional -- the new information report from
16 our investigator which summarizes the investigative efforts that the
17 Prosecution undertook after court yesterday and in cooperation with
18 representatives from our field office.
19 So all that went out as soon as we could last night so that
20 everybody could be aware of the developments that the investigation had
22 I additionally, as I mentioned, CC'd the Trial Chamber's legal
23 officers to alert the legal officers that there was this new development
24 given the Trial Chamber's decision to recall the prior witness. I
25 received some criticism or questioning about my decision to do that, to
1 send this information to the Court's legal officers. Obviously, that's
2 not my practice. I think anybody from Chambers knows that I don't
3 bombard Chambers with e-mails. I only CC the legal officers if it has
4 something to do with scheduling or other administrative matters, but
5 given this unusual situation where the Court has recalled a witness and
6 speculating that it may have something to do with this train issue, I
7 thought it was prudent to let the legal officers know, trusting that they
8 would make the appropriate decision whether to pass that information on
9 to the Trial Chamber because I know that Trial Chamber sometimes doesn't
10 want to know everything there is to know behind a particular issue.
11 And I think that is pretty much as much as I can summarize where
12 we are now. And what I intend to do with the witness, and again, I've --
13 I have no qualms about letting everybody know, I'm simply going to tell
14 her what happened, tell her that when I examined you yesterday I was
15 under the impression that Balkan Ekspres restaurant was the only one in
16 town, we found out there's another one, think it might be the one that
17 was discussed, and see what happens.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Mr. Josse.
19 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't want to make a mountain out of a
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope not.
22 MR. JOSSE: But could I make it clear, it was I who sent the
23 e-mail expressing concern that the information report had been sent to
24 the legal officers, I made it clear, first of all, that this issue didn't
25 relate to my client; secondly, I sent it only to Mr. Thayer,
1 Mr. McCloskey, and Mr. Krgovic, and it was a gentle inquiry, and
2 Mr. Thayer is aware that it's an issue that I feel quite strongly about,
3 particularly in relation to experiences I've had in other cases. Beyond
4 that, we on behalf of General Gvero, of course not involved in this
5 issue, but unless it's directly relevance and needed, it's our submission
6 such material should not be sent to legal officers. But as I say, I
7 don't want to make anything more of it. I simply think I need to admit
8 that it was I who, I am afraid, stirred the flames of what's already
9 quite a bitter dispute.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. By the way, before I give
11 you the floor Mr. Ostojic, I think on behalf of the Trial Chamber I
12 better make things clear to you that we have all had extensive practice
13 as judges or as lawyers, and we know what the boundaries are, what the
14 limits are, what is permissible and what is not, and so does our senior
15 legal officer. Our senior legal officer with whom we have regular
16 meetings, and I in particular have daily meetings, knows exactly what is
17 permissible and what is not permissible. And sometimes I am aware that
18 he receives communications from you which he knows he ought to keep to
19 himself and not pass on to us because it would not be regular on his part
20 to communicate the information to us.
21 Sometimes he asks for direction from us, but basically, basically
22 he is a trained lawyer with much experience, and he knows where the
23 limits are. I can put your mind at rest that if there is room for
24 mistakes anywhere, this is certainly not one area where you can expect
25 mistakes, neither from our side - as I said, we know what the limits are
1 - nor from our senior legal officer.
2 I think I ought to make that clear in the first place.
3 Now, Mr. Ostojic.
4 MS. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Let me
5 first begin by apologizing for my outburst, but these are very sensitive
6 issues, and I do honestly from the bottom of my heart apologise for my
8 I'm going to direct your attention to two things that my learned
9 friend said. He says, I don't know if it's of interest to you. I'm not
10 going to comment if it's disingenuous or not, but look on page 6 of
11 today's transcript. He says again, which is where I get frustrated, "at
12 the Victoria
13 Express restaurant on occasion." That's not true. I have to fight for
14 this Court to hear some truth. The Orient Express Restaurant at Victoria
15 Station has a sign that's painted on that train that says "Orient
16 Express." Simplon Orient Express. It can be seen for blocks, several
17 feet or metres away. They shouldn't say things like that, I believe,
18 Your Honour. They should show the Court the picture, not the one they
19 e-mailed us but the other one, which we can see it, where it says
20 Victoria Station and Simplon Orient Express and clearly saying it opened
21 in 1993. They don't want to -- that's what they should tell you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You are now making the storm in the tea cup that
23 Mr. Josse tried to avoid.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: I didn't write --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can close the issue there. Give us an
1 opportunity to -- give me an opportunity to confer with my colleagues
2 because, obviously, we were prepared for one thing, and we have been
3 taken by surprise, and we'll come back to you as to what is going to
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So bottom line after all this is the following: We
7 have agreed, the four of us, that we don't need Mrs. Gavrilovic anymore,
8 so Madam Registrar, if you could make -- communicate this to her and
9 apologise to her for any inconvenience and, again, wish her a safe
10 journey back to Belgrade
12 The other thing is this, that, also, it's a bottom line and
13 thinking with hindsight, all this, all this could have been avoided had
14 your witness summaries, Mr. Ostojic, been more excessive or
15 comprehensive. The restaurant could have been mentioned in the witness
16 summaries; investigations could have been taken -- been made before and
17 ... but anyway, leave it, leave it. Let's continue with the witness, the
18 current witness. If you could usher her in, please.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, Mr. Cubbon just asked me about
22 that witness in the videolink. I've had a chance to look at a translated
23 medical report, and then we've translated the medical terms, and we won't
24 be objecting to the videolink.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So in fact, I was working on that this morning.
1 There are arrangements already going on to have the videolink testimony
2 conducted on the 9th and 10th of September. Our staff can confirm to the
3 registrar that the motion is being granted here and now. Thank you.
4 WITNESS: MIROSLAVA CEKIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, madam.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We are going to continue with your
9 testimony and hopefully finish soon. You are still testifying under oath
10 as per your solemn undertaking yesterday. Mr. Thayer will continue and
11 conclude with his cross-examination.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning again, ma'am.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. I want to pick up on a topic that we touched on yesterday, and
17 that has to do with the discussion that you recall about the Orient
18 Express and this restaurant in a train car. Do you recall talking about
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Do you recall that there was some mention, you thought it might
22 have been from one of the Gavrilovics, about a newly opened restaurant
23 that was made like a train car for people to eat in; is that correct?
24 A. No, I don't recall that. I don't think I heard them say that.
25 Q. What do you recall, then, hearing, or what do you recall hearing
1 them say?
2 A. There was some discussion about the Orient Express, about taking
3 a travel on board of the train because of their anniversary, and they
4 said that they would go but had no money. They were supposed to travel
5 to a large city such as London
7 Q. I just want to turn your attention back to what you said
8 yesterday, ma'am. You answered that, "Yes, I heard it being mentioned
9 that evening, the Orient Express and the train car," and then I asked
10 you: "The train car restaurant you are referring to", and you said:
11 "Yes, I mean the restaurant." Do you recall saying that yesterday,
13 A. No, I did not say anything about the restaurant. I did not even
14 know that the restaurant existed. You asked me and you showed me a
15 picture of the restaurant. I never went to that restaurant. I don't
16 know where it is.
17 Q. That's right, and you certainly told us that yesterday, ma'am.
18 What I'm asking you is, when we spoke yesterday I asked you - and this is
19 at page 24854 of the transcript - "Do you remember during the course of
20 this second dinner, or maybe even during the course of the first dinner,
21 do you remember during the dinner joking about the Orient Express? Do
22 you remember somebody saying something to the effect of, 'Well, there's
23 this new restaurant that looks like a train car. Since you can't go on
24 the real Orient Express, maybe you could go have dinner in the train
25 car'?" I asked you, do you remember any conversation or discussion along
1 those lines, and then you answered: "Yes, I heard it being mentioned
2 that evening, the Orient Express and the train car." And then I asked
3 you: "The train car restaurant you are referring to?" And you answered,
4 and this is at line 24: "Yes, I mean the restaurant." And then I asked
5 you: "I know this is going back, but can you recall who came up with the
6 joke about the train car restaurant? If you don't remember, that's fine.
7 If you remember, please share that with the Trial Chamber." And your
8 answer was, and this is on the next page, 24855, line 3: "I don't
9 remember. As I said a moment ago, I was going in and out of the room
10 where we were, going back to the kitchen to bring out drinks and food.
11 Maybe I was absent at that very moment when someone said it. Perhaps it
12 was one of the Gavrilovics." Do you remember saying that yesterday,
13 ma'am? We need an audible answer, ma'am, one that we can hear, a yes or
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you stand by that answer?
17 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: I would like, Mr. Thayer, for you to read the --
19 read up the answer which appears in page 24851, lines from 16 to 18. If
20 you could find it, where she said: "Well, it seems I'll have to take you
21 by your hands to take you to the train station, and at least you can look
22 at the train. That was the tone of the evening."
23 MR. THAYER:
24 Q. Do you stand by that recollection as well, ma'am, or is your
25 recollection now different?
1 A. I stand by that recollection.
2 Q. So then, ma'am, just to follow up on His Honour's question, is it
3 your recollection that there were jokes of both kinds made that night,
4 one by Mr. Beara about taking you down to look at the train and another
5 joke by one of the Gavrilovics about instead of going on your trip, going
6 to this newly opened restaurant in a train car?
7 A. Yes, those were the jokes about all that, about the situation,
8 and we had quite a few laughs about that.
9 Q. Okay. Ma'am, we did a little bit of checking around yesterday
10 after court and we found another restaurant, also in Belgrade, and it's
11 called Victoria Station. Sometimes it's referred to as the "Orient
12 Express Restaurant." And to be fair with you, when I asked you the
13 question yesterday about the Balkan Ekspres restaurant, I was under the
14 impression that that was the only such restaurant in Belgrade. But it
15 turns out there might be -- in fact, there is more than one such
16 restaurant in Belgrade
17 So what I want to do is give you an opportunity to look at some
18 pictures, read some portions of an article, look at another document, and
19 see if that helps your recollection, changes your recollection at all
20 about this issue of whether the restaurant and the train that was
21 referred to was one place or another, okay?
22 MR. THAYER: If we could have 65 ter 3649, please.
23 Your Honours, I think everything should be uploaded in e-court by
24 now, including the English translation of one of the articles which is
25 attached to this information report. So I'm going to skip the actual
1 text of the report, obviously. I just want to show the witness in her
2 own language, and this is at page 3 of the document, an article.
3 Q. Ma'am, there's going to be an article appearing on your computer
4 screen, and it's going to show a train carriage and then in one
5 photograph at the top and then on the bottom photograph it will show some
6 restaurant booths. Just tell us when you see that document.
7 A. Yes, I can see the pictures, but I'm not familiar with the place.
8 I was never in this restaurant. I don't even know where it is.
9 Q. That's fine. The article says that the restaurant Victoria
10 Station is in Novi Grad, and can we go to page 6, please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- I think now you've covered enough
12 terrain to prompt us to say that we've heard enough on this now, and you
13 can move.
14 MR. THAYER: Great. Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You can move to something else. I mean, it's clear
16 enough now. I don't think we need any further explanations from the
17 witness. Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: My computer has frozen, so if I can just have some
19 technical assistance with the files.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Which -- you have only got that one. Yes. Yeah,
21 I'll attend to that straightaway. Madam Registrar. Shall we move on in
22 the meantime, or do you prefer to stop?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I think we can move on.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Anyone else with the same
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I just adjusted it somehow.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Now, ma'am, you testified that you first met with the Beara
5 Defence team in February of 2008 at Nada Beara's home; is that correct?
6 That was at transcript 24830.
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. And how is it that you are sure of that month?
9 A. Well, it was this year towards the end of February when Mr. Milan
10 Stanic arrived from The Hague
11 visit Nada. That's where I found Mr. Milan Stanic.
12 Q. Okay. You told us yesterday that you were visiting with Nada
13 Beara and then Mr. Stanic arrived. Is that how it happened? Were you
14 visiting with Ms. Beara and then Mr. Stanic arrived?
15 A. Well, there may be a confusion there. In any case, this is where
16 I met him and this is where I saw him. Now, as to who came first, who
17 came later, I may have been mistaken about that, but this is where I saw
19 Q. And that meeting may have lasted as long as two hours, correct?
20 A. Well, you know, we did not time this meeting. I don't know if it
21 was two hours, two hours and a quarter, or two hours and a half. I
22 wouldn't know. I wouldn't be able to tell you how long the meeting
24 Q. And what did he tell you he wanted?
25 A. We chatted. We had a lengthy conversation. He asked me how well
1 and since when I knew the Beara family, when I first met them, whether we
2 socialized a lot, whether we were friends, and so on and so forth. I
3 inquired after Mr. Beara, his health, and that's the general outline of
4 the conversation that we had.
5 Q. Did he ask you at that time if you were interested in being a
7 A. Yes, he did.
8 Q. And was Nada Beara present for this entire meeting that you had
9 with Mr. Stanic?
10 A. Yes, she was.
11 Q. So she certainly knew at that point that you were a potential
12 witness, correct?
13 A. Well, she did know, but she could not be certain whether I would
14 follow through.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Do you still have the problem, or do
16 you have the problem again, Mr. Ostojic?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: I do have the problem again, but we can continue.
18 I just wanted to --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No, just -- because I saw you making signs. I just
20 wanted to verify that. We still need technical assistance for
21 Mr. Ostojic, please. Thank you.
22 Sorry, Mr. Thayer. Please proceed.
23 MR. THAYER:
24 Q. And was anyone taking notes during this meeting?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did anyone ask you to write anything down?
2 A. No, nobody did.
3 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that after the indictment against
4 Mr. Beara was made public, you read about it in the newspapers. Do you
5 remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you also told us yesterday that you haven't been following
8 the trial closely, but you do see TV or read press coverage about the
9 trial from time to time; is that right?
10 A. Yes, that is right.
11 Q. So even though you've probably never seen the indictment - forget
12 about reading the indictment - in this case, at the time you met with Mr.
13 Stanic in February of 2008, you knew then that this case was generally
14 about what happened after the fall of Srebrenica. Isn't that fair to
16 A. Well, I'm not familiar with the details of all this. I only know
17 as much as I have read in the papers and seen on TV on the news. This is
18 as much as I know, and this is as much I am familiar with this Srebrenica
20 Q. So you certainly know this is about what happened after the VRS
21 took over Srebrenica? Even though you may not know individual counts or
22 facts there are alleged, you know that this trial has to do with what
23 happened after the VRS took over Srebrenica, correct?
24 A. Well, no, I don't know that much. There is not much I can tell
25 you save for what I've read or seen on TV. As for the details, I really
1 wouldn't be able to say anything about that.
2 Q. Now, when you met with Mr. Stanic in February of 2008 and sat
3 with him for the two hours, you knew that it was important for you to be
4 as complete and as accurate as you could be, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you tell him everything you could remember at the time in
7 2008 in February?
8 A. Well, we did not have that much time, so we could not go into the
9 greatest of details.
10 Q. Well, in those two hours in February, did you talk about July
12 A. Well, we just touched upon the subject of July and how things
13 were at the time. But as I say, I don't know much because I have never
14 followed the developments in Republika Srpska that closely.
15 Q. My question more specifically is, in that two hours or maybe even
16 more, as you said, that you spent with Mr. Stanic, did he ask you about
17 your recollection about events in July 1995? Not generally what was
18 happening, not what the VRS was doing, but did he ask you questions in
19 February of 2008 about what you were doing and your recollections of July
21 A. No. We did not discuss anything concrete on that particular
23 Q. Where and when was the next time you met with anyone from the
24 Beara Defence team?
25 A. I met with Mr. Stanic somewhat later, maybe a month later.
1 Actually, we spoke on the phone, but we met sometime in mid-April.
2 Q. And what did he want at that meeting, ma'am?
3 A. Well, then we spoke about things, and then he asked me how much I
4 remember from the month of July 1995 and what I remembered.
5 Q. And again, you knew it was important when he was asking you these
6 questions about July of 1995 to be as complete and as accurate as
8 A. Yes. I knew it was important, yes.
9 Q. And during this meeting, was anyone taking any notes?
10 A. No. There were just Mr. Stanic and I.
11 Q. And did you observe him taking any notes or writing anything down
12 at any time or recording anything with a machine?
13 A. Yes, he was actually taking notes, yes. Mr. Stanic was.
14 Q. And how long was this meeting, ma'am?
15 A. Maybe an hour or so or maybe just over an hour, an hour and a
17 Q. So when was the first time that you told anyone from the Beara
18 Defence team about the events in 1995, these two dinners, for example,
19 that you've told us about over the last day or so. When was the first
20 time you told anybody from the Defence team for Mr. Beara about those
22 A. That was during my second meeting with Mr. Stanic in mid-April.
23 I can't remember the exact date. I don't know whether it was on the
24 18th, the 19th, or the 20th of April, but it was about that time.
25 Q. Did you have to consult anything or refer to anything during the
1 course of this meeting to help jog your recollection about these events,
2 or were you able simply to remember everything from your mind?
3 A. Well, we started by saying that the times were very hard in 1994
4 and 1995. In 1995, my late husband lost his job. Living was not easy.
5 The financial situations became more difficult, and that's how the
6 conversation started. That's how I started telling him the story, and
7 that's how I shared with him whatever I've been sharing with you these
8 two days.
9 Q. Okay. But certainly, he was very interested in what you had to
10 say about these two dinners that you had with the Bearas and this
11 particular time period; isn't that fair to say?
12 A. Well, yes, but in order to arrive at all that we mentioned many
13 other things that were happening during the years after the break-up of
14 our state. This is how the conversation started. We were talking about
15 people losing jobs, about life being very hard. We basically spoke in
16 general terms, and then I continued speaking about the specific events
17 that happened and that Mr. Stanic was particularly interested in.
18 Q. And what were the specific events that happened that Mr. Stanic
19 was particularly interested in?
20 A. Well, I think that Mr. Stanic was interested in our get-togethers
21 with Ljubisa Beara. He asked me when I saw him, when I spoke to him, and
22 that's what I told him.
23 Q. Now, you made it clear yesterday that you didn't even know
24 Mr. Beara was having his birthday until Nada Beara told you so?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you said -- and let me just take you back a little bit to
2 what you said yesterday, and then I'll put my question to you, but I want
3 to give you a little bit of background of what you've said. You said
4 referring to the dinner at the restaurant, which my friend referred to as
5 the first dinner, that you stayed there until 11 to 1130. Then Nada
6 Beara told you, and I'm quoting from the transcript yesterday: "Do you
7 know what happens tomorrow?" And you replied: "Not really." And then
8 she told you that the next day was her husband's birthday. That's the
9 first thing you said.
10 And a little bit later, you testified in 1995, and I'm quoting
11 here: "We got together in July when Ljubisa was in Belgrade. That was
12 the day when we went to the restaurant; and then Nada reminded me that on
13 the following day, which was I think the 14th of July -- because this is
14 what she told me. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known." Okay, and that's
15 at transcript 24841 of yesterday's hearing. The previous quote was from
17 Now, in answer to a question from His Honour, the Presiding
18 Judge, you said -- or the question was: "At the time, were you aware of
19 Mr. Beara's date of birth or birthday?" And you replied, "When we got
20 together on that first evening while we were sitting and chatting, or
21 rather, when it was time for us to go home..." You told the Trial Chamber
22 then that Nada Beara told you that Ljubisa Beara's birthday was the next
23 day, and I'm quoting again: "That's when she told me the date.
24 Otherwise, I wouldn't have known." That's the end of your quote there at
25 24842 of the transcript.
1 So ma'am, let me see if I understand what you're telling the
2 Trial Chamber. You are at this restaurant. Nada Beara tells you, do you
3 know what tomorrow is. You say, no, I don't. She says, it's Ljubisa's
4 birthday. And then she goes out of her way to tell you that the next day
5 is the 14th of July. She actually gives you the date. She goes out of
6 her way to give you the date of 14th of July. Is that what you're
7 telling the Trial Chamber?
8 A. Yes, that's how it was. That was our conversation when we met
9 that evening and when we were supposed to go home. That was on the 13th,
10 and then Nada told me that on the following day was her husband's
11 birthday, which I wouldn't have known had she not specifically mentioned
12 the fact.
13 Q. So ma'am, how is it that 13 years later here you can recall that
14 exact date that Nada Beara gave you that night at the restaurant, that
15 exact date of 14 July as opposed to any other date? How is it that 14th
16 of July sticks out in your mind?
17 A. Well, in the month of May when we got together and when we
18 socialised at our house, at the house of me and my late husband was the
19 16th of May, and it was my birthday on that day. Ljubisa and Nada were
20 there, and then we met on several occasions after that, and in the month
21 of July we also socialised and got together. And I would not have known
22 that it was either the 13th or 14th if Nada hadn't mentioned that, which
23 means that the day before we were together, which was on the 13th, I
24 would not have known that it was the 13th. I would not be so sure. It
25 could have been the 12th or the 11th, but I knew that it was on the 13th
1 because when we were saying our good-byes then she said, tomorrow my old
2 man - that's how she referred to her husband - celebrates his birthday.
3 And that's how I remember things. It could have been some other date in
4 July as far as I know.
5 Q. My question to you, ma'am, is, how can you explain to the Trial
6 Chamber how that date, the 14th of July, has stuck in the your memory for
7 the last 13 years as opposed to July 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, so on and so on,
8 because you didn't know Ljubisa Beara's birthday. You've told us that
9 consistently. So why is it -- can you tell the Court why is it that that
10 date has stuck in your mind since you didn't know when his birthday was?
11 A. Well, if someone tells me something, then I remember things. It
12 hasn't been so long a time ago. I maybe even made a note somewhere so as
13 to know that it was Ljubisa's birthday. I was born in May, my late
14 husband in June. That's how I generally try to remember things.
15 Q. So you think you might have a note somewhere, ma'am?
16 A. Could be. I wasn't going back to my notes, but when Mr. Stanic
17 and I spoke he asked me whether I remembered, and it brought back things.
18 Q. He asked you whether you remembered what, ma'am?
19 A. He asked me when we saw each other, when we socialised, when we
20 spent time together. That would be it.
21 Q. Now, you know that Svetlana Gavrilovic has met with the Beara
22 team investigators, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when did you first learn this?
25 A. I don't know exactly when Mr. Stanic contacted Svetlana. I
1 didn't ask her that, she didn't tell me that. Whether it was after our
2 conversation, well, I can't say. I didn't ask her. I don't know that.
3 Q. So I'm a little confused about your last answer, ma'am. Is it
4 your testimony that you and Ms. Gavrilovic have never spoken to each
5 other about either her meeting, and we'll start with her meeting with Mr.
7 A. We did talk about it, but I didn't ask her on what day it was,
8 whether it was two or three days after our meeting or a week later. I
9 didn't ask her that. However, I do know that they spoke.
10 Q. And did you and Ms. Gavrilovic share with each other at any time
11 what you told Mr. Stanic?
12 A. We didn't go into any details. We were trying to remember what
13 was happening that July 1995, and then she said, well, that was the year
14 my late husband and myself celebrated our anniversary. That's what we
15 could recall.
16 Q. So that's what you two recall together as you were talking about
17 what Mr. Stanic had spoken about with Ms. Gavrilovic. Is that what you
18 are saying?
19 A. No. I don't know what the two of them talked about. When we met
20 and talked a few days after, she told me that. She reminded me, saying
21 that it was a date that one remembers.
22 Q. So she gave you that date; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, she said so.
24 Q. And what did she tell you about her recollection of the events of
25 July 1995?
1 A. We didn't discuss that.
2 Q. So it's your testimony that you and Ms. Gavrilovic never talked
3 to each other about, for example, the two dinners that you told my friend
4 about and that you've spoken to the Trial Chamber about? You never spoke
5 about those two dinners with Ms. Gavrilovic in the last few months?
6 A. No, never. We talked about things in general but without any
7 details. I didn't ask her what specifically she talked about with Mr.
8 Stanic and the other way around. She didn't ask me, either.
9 Q. Now, if we could have 65 ter 3631, please.
10 Now, ma'am, we don't have a translation of this, so I'm just
11 going to read something to you. In April of this year, we received a
12 summary of what your testimony was going to be from the Beara Defence
13 team, and I just want to read it to you - it shouldn't take too long -
14 and ask you some questions. The summary says that - and this is
15 referring to you, ma'am - "Witness has been a friend of Beara family
16 since 1975..." and I understand that that's a typo. It should be 1985.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "And they socialised quite frequently after the Bearas moved to
20 whenever he happened to be in Belgrade
21 almost entirely of home visits with a single exception when they went out
22 to a restaurant at the insistence of the witness's spouse, and that was
23 for Beara's birthday. She recalls that that was in 1995 because that was
24 the first time she and her husband did not vacation on the sea coast due
25 to financial problems. Since her husband had commitments the night of
1 Beara's birthday, they went out for dinner with the Bearas the evening
2 before that. They went to the Cuburska lipa restaurant on 14th of
3 December Street. The following evening, Nada and Ljubisa Beara came to
4 visit the witness at her house. Also in attendance were friends Svetlana
5 Gavrilovic and late husband Djordje."
6 Now, ma'am, the summary I just read to you contains no references
7 to any dates of these two dinners. My question is, when you met with the
8 Beara team's investigators either in February or in April, did you give
9 them any dates of these dinners?
10 A. I did not.
11 Q. And I see here that there's no reference to any Orient Express or
12 train restaurant stories or even mention. In your meetings with the
13 Beara Defence team in February or April, did you tell them about your
14 recollections concerning the Gavrilovics' anniversary plans that fell
15 through and the Orient Express trip that they had planned and the jokes
16 about taking somebody to the train station for Mr. Beara or the joke
17 about going to the train restaurant? Did you say any of that to the
18 investigators in February or April of 2008?
19 A. No, I didn't discuss that with them.
20 Q. May we have 65 ter 3630, please.
21 Ma'am, we asked for some more information from Mr. Beara's
22 lawyers about what your testimony was likely to be, and we received
23 another summary, and I'm just going to read the new information. The
24 summary consists of what I've just read to you a few moments ago and then
25 some new information. So let me just read to you this additional
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry to interrupt. In light of Mr. -- my
4 learned friend's question on page 26, line 16, I think it's fair to this
5 witness to tell her, also, the date of this summary.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 26, line 16.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Yeah. He said the first exhibit that he used, he
8 said in April of this year, and I think it would only be fair if he tells
9 her when this summary was provided.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough I think, Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Sure.
12 Q. We asked for some more information. And then this summary was
13 supplied to us in August of 2008.
14 Now, the new information is: "In addition to the foregoing" --
15 and that's referring to your earlier statement -- or the earlier summary,
16 I'm sorry -- "it was clarified with the witness Cekic that her and her
17 late husband had dinner with the Bearas on the 13th July, 1995, because
18 they were unable to attend the luncheon party Ms. Beara had for Ljubisa
19 Beara at the Beara's house, which she had on the 14 July 1995. Later
20 that same evening on 14 July, 1995
21 together at Cekic's home. During the visit at the Cekics' house on the
22 14 July, the Gavrilovic family, Svetlana and her husband Djordje, were
23 also present, and the gathering lasted approximately two to three hours.
24 The witness does not recall what they specifically ate that evening but
25 assumes that they served them the traditional pita and homemade cookies.
1 Finally, Ms. Cekic informed us that her late husband and her late husband
2 have worked together in the past in the company Beojadro and Splitjadro.
3 It was through that professional working relationship that they became
4 friends. Ms. Cekic will testify as to Ljubisa Beara's good character and
5 physical appearance as well as his dialect."
6 Now, this new summary includes some specific dates on which you
7 say these events happened. You told us a few moments ago that you didn't
8 provide any dates in your other interviews. Tell us how the dates came
9 up in this interview. How is it that we are now seeing exact dates in
10 August of 2008 when you didn't provide them in April or previously?
11 A. I probably did say that. If Mr. Stanic was following me, then it
12 should be in here. When we met at the restaurant, I don't -- I couldn't
13 remember exactly what the date was, but as we were parting our ways, Nada
14 stressed that the 14th of July was Ljubisa Beara's birthday; therefore,
15 the evening before when we were together was the 13th. That's it.
16 That's what I could recall.
17 Q. Okay. My question is, though, ma'am -- you didn't recall those
18 dates in your April 30th meeting with the investigator, and my question
19 is --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: I think he just may have misspoken. I don't think
22 that she said there was a April 30th meeting. She gave specific dates,
23 actually, which was mid-April. The filing was pursuant to the Court's
24 order for May 1st, but just not to confuse the case, there was no meeting
25 on April 30th.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. You are correct.
2 MR. THAYER: I stand corrected. Your April. We'll just leave it
3 as your --
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Why don't we say mid-April or the dates that she
5 gave when she said the 18th, 19th, or 20th?
6 MR. THAYER: That's fine.
7 Q. Now, ma'am, your recollection, what you've just told the Chamber,
8 if I understand you correctly, is there were no dates in that April
9 summary that I just read because you didn't mention any dates in April
10 when you met with the investigator; is that correct?
11 A. Again, I can tell you that I may have mentioned the dates, but
12 Mr. Stanic had not had noted them down. Later on when I was trying to
13 recall all of it, I was able to remember those things, and I may have
14 added that.
15 Q. So the fact is, you can't be sure whether you were able to recall
16 those dates in April of 2008 when you met with the investigator. Isn't
17 that correct, ma'am?
18 A. I do recall that, but as I'm trying to tell you it could be that
19 Mr. Stanic hadn't taken note of it. Maybe there was an omission,
20 something I can't explain. I can't tell you what happened.
21 Q. Okay. So let me just be clear. What is your recollection as to
22 whether you were able to provide these dates of the 13th and 14th of July
23 during your meeting in April with Mr. Stanic? Did you or did you not
24 provide him the dates on that occasion? And if you can't recall, ma'am,
25 that's fine too.
1 A. Well, as I said, I probably remembered that subsequently, maybe
2 the next time we met or heard each other over the phone. Mr. Stanic, I
3 remember, was later absent because of health reasons. As for why he
4 hadn't written it down, I really can't say.
5 Q. And in the additional summary from August that I've just read,
6 there's no -- again, no mention of any 25th wedding anniversary, jokes
7 about the Orient Express, or anything about a restaurant or a train. Do
8 you recall telling the investigators or anybody from the Beara Defence
9 team about those topics when you met in August?
10 A. No, I didn't say that. I only tried to explain the extent of the
11 discussions, jokes, when we were at our house the next day, the 14th of
12 July. But as for any details, I really don't know.
13 Q. Okay. Well, you just told us that you "tried to explain the
14 extent of the discussions and the jokes when we were at our house the
15 next day, the 14th of July." So my question is, if that's what you were
16 trying to do in August, how come we don't see that in the additional
17 summary? Is it because you didn't recall it in August; is it because you
18 said it but it wasn't written down; or is there some other explanation,
20 A. I thought that it wasn't ... I thought I was supposed to say what
21 we were talking about, what we were making jokes about, and it's probably
22 for that reason why I didn't share that with the investigators.
23 Q. Ma'am, I'm sorry. I just don't understand your last answer.
24 Maybe it's my problem this morning. But you just said: "I thought I was
25 supposed to say what we were talking about, what we were making jokes
1 about, and it's probably for that reason why I didn't share that with the
2 investigators." My question to you is --
3 MR. OSTOJIC: I do think at this point Mr. Ostojic may have
4 missed, as we see on the transcript, the beginning part of her answer,
5 and I think maybe he can read that to her. I think the translators
6 didn't pick up on what she said specifically, and also, just so that I
7 can remember, and I apologise, I'm going to have a look at page 31, line
8 16. I don't know that that was accurately translated, but we'll deal
9 with that at a later time.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't be able to help you there. If someone
11 else who speaks the language can be of assistance. In what sense do you
12 think ...
13 MR. OSTOJIC: We'll listen the tape, but I think she said "I
14 didn't" in reference to that, not that I don't know because she said it
15 rather plainly, but we'll take a look at it just to be sure.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. Yes, yes, yes. It
17 can be verified later on.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Now, back to my question, ma'am. You just testified that "I
20 thought I was supposed to say what we were talking about, what we were
21 making jokes about, and it's probably for that reason why I didn't share
22 that with the investigators."
23 Now, I just -- when you met with the Beara Defence team in August
24 of 2008, did you or did you not tell them about the jokes about the
25 Orient Express vacation or holiday that fell through, the 25th
1 anniversary gift that the Gavrilovics wanted to have for themselves, that
2 trip, jokes about the -- going to the train station that Mr. Beara made,
3 or the joke about having dinner in a train restaurant? Did you or did
4 you not in August of 2008 share that information with the Beara Defence
6 A. Yes. I said that my late husband was out of work, that we were
7 unable to go on a vacation as we had done before, that we were very sorry
8 about it, that we remained in Belgrade
9 the Beara and Gavrilovic families, that there were jokes, stories, and
10 whatnot, and I also said that at our house when we saw each other on the
11 evening of the 14th that I had prepared a pie, which is a traditional
12 meal, cakes, ham, drinks. In the meantime I went to the kitchen, and we
13 were talking about this and that. If I had made an omission in the fact
14 that I may not have mentioned to the Defence the fact about the Orient
15 Express, I don't know. But as for the rest, I stand by what I said. I
16 tried to explain what was going on.
17 Q. Now, ma'am, you and Ms. Gavrilovic have certainly shared that
18 story between you, that joke about the Orient Express and going to the
19 train station, the joke that Mr. Beara made, and the joke that one of the
20 Gavrilovics made about going to a train restaurant. You and
21 Ms. Gavrilovic have shared those jokes, haven't you, since this night
22 that you say was July 14th of 1995?
23 A. Yes. We spoke within the context of jokes because at the time
24 nobody had any money to travel and they didn't, either, because as far as
25 I can remember and as far as I can actually be sure of, that train did
1 not have its departure point in Belgrade
2 Q. And since being contacted by the Beara Defence team in February
3 of 2008, you and Ms. Gavrilovic have spoken to each other and recalled
4 these jokes about Mr. Beara saying he will take somebody down to the
5 train station, or instead of going on the Orient Express, we'll go to a
6 train restaurant; isn't that true, ma'am?
7 A. Yes, we spoke about that.
8 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I see it's time for the break.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer, if you could conclude, please.
14 MR. THAYER: I will, Mr. President.
15 Q. Ma'am, you just told us before the break that after you had been
16 contacted by the Beara Defence team in 2008, sometime after that you and
17 Ms. Gavrilovic had spoken to each other and recalled these jokes about
18 the train restaurant, going down to the train station, the Orient
19 Express. My question is, did you have that conversation, or if it was
20 more than one conversation, did you have one of those conversations
21 before you spoke to the Beara team in April or after you spoke to the
22 Beara team in April?
23 A. Not before. We never discussed that before.
24 Q. And do you recall whether you had one of those conversations
25 before your meeting with the Beara Defence team in August, or was it
1 after your meeting in August?
2 A. We did not talk about that before August, either, before we met
3 with the Defence team. We never discussed that before.
4 Q. So can you tell the Trial Chamber when you had this discussion or
5 this conversation or conversations, if it's more than one, with
6 Ms. Gavrilovic where you recalled the jokes about the Orient Express or
7 eating in a train restaurant?
8 A. When we saw each other after the meeting with the Defence team,
9 we reminisced on what had happened, what we had talked about that
10 evening, how we joked about things, how we'd chatted and socialised, and
11 in more general terms what it was that people or friends talk about when
12 they get together.
13 Q. So you are telling the Trial Chamber that after you met with the
14 Defence team in August of 2008, you and Ms. Gavrilovic had a conversation
15 where the two of you talked about the train restaurant and going down to
16 the train station? That happened sometime after your meeting in August
17 of 2008; you and Ms. Gavrilovic talked about that together, correct?
18 A. Yes. We chatted and one of the things that we touched upon was
19 that story, as well, and that was after the meeting with the Defence
21 Q. And then when you came here, you met with the Defence team again,
22 and you were proofed; that is, somebody met with you to discuss your
23 upcoming testimony, and this would have been sometime in the last few
24 days, correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And during that proofing session, did you tell the Beara Defence
2 team anything about this Orient Express trip or the train restaurant or
3 Mr. Beara taking somebody down to the train station? Did you tell the
4 Beara Defence team anything about those events, those recollections that
5 you and Ms. Gavrilovic talked about together in August?
6 A. When I spoke to the Defence team, I told them what had been going
7 on, how life had been, and we also discussed the two relevant days, the
8 13th and the 14th of July. We also spoke about Ljubisa, his family,
9 about our friendship. I told them that they were a wonderful family,
10 very normal, very stable, with two very good and healthy children.
11 This is more or less what we talked about, and as for the jokes
12 that we shared that evening at my home, I did not say anything specific
13 about any of those to the Defence team.
14 Q. Now, you didn't mention the train restaurant jokes or that topic
15 until I asked you about it here in court, and you remembered it. Were
16 you able to remember it, recall it so quickly because you had had this
17 recent conversation in August with Ms. Gavrilovic, or did someone tell
18 you about it during the course of one of the interviews you had with the
19 Beara team, whether it was a proofing session or an interview? Can you
20 tell the Court?
21 A. I did not discuss that with the Defence team. We only discussed
22 the things that I have just mentioned. As for Svetlana she said that,
23 and then when you asked me, I remember what we had talked about that
24 evening, what kind of jokes had been exchanged, and I actually remembered
25 those because they did make an impact.
1 Q. And they made an impact, but your testimony is you didn't tell
2 the Beara Defence team about those topics; is that correct?
3 A. I'm not getting your drift at all. What is it that you are
4 asking me?
5 Q. Well, you just told the Court that as a result of your
6 conversation with Ms. Gavrilovic you actually remembered those jokes
7 about the train station and the train restaurant because they made an
8 impact. My question is, if they made an impact, why didn't you tell the
9 Beara Defence team?
10 A. Well, the issue never came up. Mr. Beara's Defence team asked me
11 about the character of Mr. Ljubisa Beara, his family, how I had met them,
12 how we had socialised, how often we'd seen each other, and this is more
13 or less what we discussed. And then when you asked me about the other
14 thing, that's when I remembered it.
15 Q. Ma'am, clearly, the Beara Defence team spoke with you at some
16 point about these events that you say happened in July of 1995, these two
17 dinners. You've told us about that. My question is, isn't it the case
18 that you didn't recall these events in your conversations because it was
19 Ms. Gavrilovic who told you about those events?
20 A. Well, she did talk about the events that had happened before, but
21 that's why -- we are friends. That's why we socialised, to exchange our
22 everyday life about the good and the bad that is happening to us. I
23 believe that's what friends are for. That's what acquaintances are for.
24 I really don't know what else I could add to that. What else do you
25 expect me to tell you?
1 Q. One more question on this topic, ma'am.
2 After February of 2008, were you and Ms. Gavrilovic and Ms. --
3 and Nada Beara, did you ever get together or were you ever together after
4 any time after February of 2008 and discuss any of these things that Mr.
5 Stanic talked to you and to Ms. Gavrilovic about, these events of July
7 A. Svetlana and I, as I've already told you, did reminisce on that
8 and spoke about that, but Nada never wanted to participate in such
9 conversations, and we never spoke about the events with her. But we did
10 remind each other of how we socialised that evening and what happened on
11 that particular evening, but we never shared any of our conversations
12 with the Defence, with Nada, or at least I never did. I don't know about
13 the others.
14 Q. I want to turn your attention to your testimony about getting
15 together with the Bearas on your birthday in May of 1995, and I just want
16 to quote back to you what you said about that occasion, and this is on
17 page 24832 of the transcript, and I quote: "Since in May there's my
18 birthday. On that day Ljubisa was in Belgrade. I invited both him and
19 Nada to come over, not for the sake of the birthday but simply to sit
20 down and chat."
21 Now, when in May 1995 did you learn that Mr. Beara was in town?
22 A. I wouldn't know. I can't tell you when. I don't know when
23 Mr. Beara came to Belgrade
24 what day it was exactly - in any case, on the 16th of May he was there,
25 and Nada and him came to our house to have a chat, to have a drink and a
1 piece of cake. I'd baked a birthday cake to mark the occasion, and
2 Ljubisa and Nada brought me a golden charm depicting an anchor because
3 this is something that has sea references, and as you know, Mr. Ljubisa
4 Beara is a soldier -- or soldier who served at the sea.
5 Q. So just to be clear, your recollection is that this get-together
6 was on the actual date of your birthday, 16 May 1995? Sorry, we just
7 need audible answer for the record, yes or no?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Now, is there anything that stands out in your memory that
10 might help you recall how long Mr. Beara had been in Belgrade at the time
11 you got together on that occasion, and if it helps at all, that was a
13 A. I can't tell you how long.
14 Q. Do you have any idea where he was in the days before he came over
15 to celebrate your birthday?
16 A. No. I don't know.
17 Q. Now, ma'am, yesterday I asked you the following question:
18 "Following the memorial service for your husband in 2001, when do you
19 recall speaking with Ljubisa Beara?" And your answer was, "Well, we met
20 in the year 2000 while my husband was still alive. That was in the month
21 of June. We went to visit Ljubisa and Nada. Ljubisa always liked to
22 surprise us and organise a barbecue because he had been living for many
23 years in Split
24 Now, I asked you a simple question about 2001, and you responded
25 about 2000 and talked about a barbecue, and then you went on to say that
1 he spoke in a Split
2 that it was important to tell the Trial Chamber that Mr. Beara spoke in a
3 Split dialect?
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I object to the form of the question.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
6 MR. THAYER: I can rephrase.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it's the case, and the transcript in
8 any case is misleading. Mr. Ostojic didn't give his okay to the form of
9 the question. He objected to it. Yes, go ahead.
10 MR. THAYER:
11 Q. Ma'am, did anyone tell you that it was important to tell the
12 Trial Chamber that Mr. Beara spoke in a Split dialect?
13 A. No, nobody told me that. This is simply the way Ljubisa speaks,
14 and it was rather odd to hear it in Serbia because people in Serbia
15 the way I do, for example, and Ljubisa had his very specific and strong
16 dialect on account of the fact that he had lived and worked in Split
17 Q. So when you happened to mention that to the Trial Chamber
18 yesterday, that was just a spontaneous statement on your part; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, ma'am, going back to these two dinners that you have told
22 the Trial Chamber about, did Ms. Gavrilovic ever tell you that the dinner
23 at your house that you say you hosted for the Bearas for his birthday,
24 did she ever tell you that the date of that event was July 14th?
25 A. No, she didn't.
1 Q. She has never told you that; is that your testimony?
2 A. She didn't tell me that. Ms. Gavrilovic never told me that.
3 Q. Thank you, ma'am. I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
5 Is there re-examination, Mr. Ostojic.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Mr. President. Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
8 Madam Cekic, we've come to the end of your testimony. We have no
9 further questions for you, which means you are free to go. You'll be
10 assisted by our staff. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank
11 you for having come over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe
12 journey back home.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Ostojic, do you have any documents, any
16 exhibits to tender?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: We do have, Your Honour, the Exhibit with the
18 Orient Express on the Victoria Station, 1993 restaurant, but I think we
19 may cover that in a separate motion. I know I didn't show to any of --
20 or the witness, but that came up last night when we looked for it in the
21 internet, and we -- they have a couple documents that they put into
22 e-court. The picture isn't clear. We have a clearer picture of where it
23 says Orient Express on the train in new Belgrade, but we may deal with
24 that subsequently. I just don't know --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I can produce it. I have it. We can produce it.
2 I think we were going to call it ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm sorry. If it makes any
5 difference, we have no objection to that -- those exhibits coming in.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That being so -- thank you, Mr. Thayer.
7 That being so, Mr. Ostojic, I suppose you can tender them now.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: It's only one Exhibit, and it's 2D600, actually,
9 from what I recall.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there any objection from any of the other
11 Defence teams? None. Mr. Thayer, do you have any documents to tender?
12 MR. THAYER: We do, Mr. President. We have 65 ter number 3629.
13 That is the information report which we referenced yesterday and showed a
14 couple of attachments through. 3630 and 3631, those are 65 ter
15 summaries. In fact, I've read, I believe, most of those in, so actually
16 as I'm looking at it we can withdraw that unless there's no objection in
17 which case throw them in, we've got them marked, but I do recognise I
18 read those in, and they are a matter of record, anyway. And then we have
19 3649, which is the information report that we cranked out last night
20 referred to today along with the attachments that we put up before the
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Ostojic, any objection?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I do. I do object to 3629 and 3649. It's an
24 information report, I know, but I think that it's misleading for the
25 Court to have it. I think, with all due respect, if they want to have
1 the investigator come in and he can share with us his process. I don't
2 think for our point we need it, but we do object.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to respond to that, Mr. Thayer?
4 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, it's a matter that was of some
5 discussion. It's -- we'll leave it in the Court's hands as to whether
6 the Chamber feels that it needs to have it.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Our decision is as follows: We consider it to have
9 -- all these documents to have some importance for the integrity of the
10 evidence that was adduced and heard in relation to the subject matter
11 that you are aware of, so these documents are admitted. Any objection to
12 the other documents?
13 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry. I should have said that, but yeah, I
14 mean, I don't think it's necessary. We filed the 65 ter summary. They
15 are the same. The Court has it, so I would just as a formality object to
16 those two.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, the summaries are -- the summaries, even
18 Mr. Thayer himself factually explained that it's neither here nor there
19 because he did read them out in court in any case.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: I think that's all the documents, so no other --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Do you insist on having them admitted or
22 not, Mr. Thayer?
23 MR. THAYER: Not at all, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then leave them, forget them. I wouldn't
25 know the reference number now offhand, but we certainly know what we're
1 talking about, though, which ones we are talking about.
2 MR. THAYER: It's 3630 and 3631.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So these are not being tendered, and we
4 don't have to discuss them any further.
5 All right. Can we have the next witness, please, who will be Mr.
6 Kerkez, no?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Correct.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, to you, Mr. Kerkez.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And you're welcome to these proceedings. You have
12 been summoned as a witness by the Defence team for Ljubisa Beara. Before
13 you start giving evidence, you need to make a solemn declaration that you
14 will be testifying the truth, the contents of which is being handed to
15 you now. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn
16 undertaking with us.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Kerkez. Please make yourself
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic will go first, who will then be
23 followed on cross-examination by others. Mr. Ostojic.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 WITNESS: MILAN KERKEZ
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Mr. Ostojic:
4 Q. Good morning, sir. As you know, my name is John Ostojic, and I'm
5 one of the attorneys who represents Ljubisa Beara. Can you please for
6 the record state your full name?
7 A. My name is Milan Kerkez.
8 Q. Mr. Kerkez, so that we can have a better understanding of you the
9 person, can you give us your date of birth and place of birth, please?
10 A. I was born on the 5th of February, 1978, in Belgrade
11 Q. And sir, can you share with us your educational background, such
12 as what's the highest level of education that you attained?
13 A. I am a university graduate in economics obtained from the
14 Belgrade School of Business Administration, which means I have a
15 bachelors degree, and my official title after graduation is the manager
16 of small and mid-sized companies.
17 Q. And just give us the year, if you will, of when you graduated.
18 A. It was in December 2007, and before that I obtained an associate
19 degree after attended a school for two years and graduating in 2004.
20 Q. Are you currently employed, sir?
21 A. I am employed, yes.
22 Q. Can you share with us where?
23 A. In the Alpha Bank in Belgrade
24 Q. Thank you for that information. Let's talk about the Bearas. Do
25 you know the Beara family?
1 A. Yes, I do, through my friend Branko Beara. I have known him
2 since the 7th grade when he arrived from Split. We were classmates at
3 elementary school, and we are still friends. We visit each other's
4 families, we go out together, and for awhile we played handball together
5 while we were in high school. We used to hang out much more than we do
6 now because now we have more obligations on our hands.
7 Q. Did you ever go on a vacation with Branko Beara?
8 A. Yes, I did, but only one summer. We have known each other for a
9 long time, but we spent only one summer together, which was in 1995.
10 Q. And I know you brought some pictures with you with respect to
11 that, and we are grateful for that. We'll get to that in a little bit.
12 How do you remember the year being 1995?
13 A. I remember it because there are five of us friends who have been
14 together since the primary school, and that was the only summer that all
15 of us spent together. During the previous years and after that, we did
16 spend summers together, but it was never all five of us in one place
18 Q. Do you recall where you went on this summer vacation -- or this
19 vacation in 1995?
20 A. Of course. Since the year before, that year, and the next year,
21 I was in Petrovac. I spent my summer three years in a row in a the same
22 house with the same people. That summer we were in Petrovac as well.
23 Q. And just tell us where Petrovac is.
24 A. Petrovac is on the Montenegrin coast some 50 kilometres away from
25 Budva, Budva being the closest bigger town.
1 Q. Thank you. Do you remember, sir, when you went on vacation with
2 Branko Beara and others in Petrovac?
3 A. It was between the 16th of July and the 31st of July. Since I
4 was a kid, I spent my vacation with parents during -- between those two
5 dates with my parents, and I used to play handball, and by that time I
6 would always have to go back to Belgrade
7 preparations for the next season. That particular summer, I was the one
8 organising the vacation.
9 Q. When does the handball preparations commence?
10 A. The 1st of August, every 1st of August. I was playing handball
11 there -- then at the Studentski Grad Handball Club as did Branko Beara,
12 and our coach used the system which meant that every 1st of August we had
13 to go back. We were still kids at the time, and we were practicing for
14 the senior team, and it would not have been good for our career to be
15 late for the preparations.
16 Q. Mr. Kerkez, I'm just waiting because we are getting a
17 simultaneous translation so that everyone can follow along with your
19 Sir, I'm going to try to take you slowly through this period. Do
20 you remember how you came or what mode of transportation you took to
22 A. You mean what mode of transport, or -- we were on a bus. On the
23 15th in the evening, we set off from the sports centre hall at Banjica.
24 I can even tell you what the transport company was that we used. It was
25 the cheapest way to go.
1 Q. What was it?
2 A. It's called the BS Tours. I still think they offer the cheapest
3 fare even today.
4 Q. Now, do you remember whether or not on the 15th of July prior to
5 taking this BS Tours bus to Petrovac whether or not you had met with
6 Branko Beara or any of the other individuals who were going on this
7 summer vacation in Petrovac?
8 A. I did. We planned that summer together as of the last day of
9 school that year, and we agreed that all five of us would go. We decided
10 that we would go to Petrovac, and I got in touch with the lady whose
11 phone number I already had. Branko was short of cash, and it wasn't sure
12 whether he would be able to go. Therefore, in early July I reserved a
13 room for four with the lady with a potential fifth person on an
14 additional bed. On the last day, basically, the 14th of July, Branko
15 asked us to come to his house and he said that he had the money. I rang
16 the lady and I told her, well, it seems there will be five of us after
17 all. Then we bought the bus tickets and took off.
18 Q. Did you see Branko Beara on the 14th of July, 1995?
19 A. Of course, at his house. He invited us.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness will have to repeat all the names
21 he said.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branko invited us to come over to
23 tell us THAT he had the money, and he just wanted to know who would take
24 the frisbee, the ball, some food, et cetera.
25 MR. OSTOJIC:
1 Q. Mr. Kerkez, and I apologise, but I speak very fast, and they have
2 trouble usually with me. But you've just said the names of the other
3 individuals, and can you just please kindly repeat them for us so that we
4 can have it in the transcript. We were unable to get their names when
5 you said them.
6 A. Yes. We met at Branco's place. He invited us. Boris and Emil
7 Cukic were there.
8 Q. I think it's Boris, right? B-O-R-I-S, I think we had it, and
9 those are the twins you mentioned?
10 A. Yes. And Vukasin Coveljic.
11 Q. Do you recall what time of day it was?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Kerkez, they will go back and correct that. Thank you for
14 that. We just wanted the name, and then we'll go back and get the
15 spelling correct. Thank you for that.
16 A. [In English] Okay.
17 Q. Do you remember what time approximately on the 14th of July,
18 1995, you were at Branko Beara's house?
19 A. [Interpretation] Around lunch time. I'd say 2 p.m.. 2, 2.30.
20 Q. Do you remember, sir, if anyone else was present other than
21 Branko Beara?
22 A. Yes. I arrived there. He lives in Kosovska Street. I was the
23 first to get to his place, and I was greeted by his parents, his mother,
24 Nada, and his father. I haven't seen them for a while -- I had not seen
25 them for awhile. We talked about how things were, and then I went with
1 Branko to his room. That's where we stayed for the rest of the time
2 while I was there.
3 Q. Well, approximately how long did you stay at the Beara apartment?
4 A. About an hour or two, an hour and a half, perhaps.
5 Q. Were there other people that were in the apartment at that time
6 other than those that you've mentioned already?
7 A. Yes. When I was there, Branko was there together with his
8 father. I greeted him, and Nada was there as well. I used to see her a
9 bit more frequently. We talked a bit, and there were some other guests,
10 older people that I didn't know. I just waved, said hello, and went with
11 Branko to his room.
12 Q. Do you know what, if any, occasion they may have been
14 A. I didn't know then. Once I was with Branko in his room, I asked
15 him, how come your father is here, and he said that he arrived because it
16 was his birthday, and that's how he got the money too.
17 Q. Did he tell you how long his father had been there, or do you
18 remember how long -- when he arrived?
19 A. No, I really don't. He didn't tell me anything of the sort. He
20 just told me that he was there and he was quite happy to be able to have
21 acquired the money for the trip.
22 Q. And you saw Mr. Beara there, as well, on that day, did you?
23 A. Yes. We shook hands, and perhaps we talked for a minute or two.
24 I asked him how he was, and then I followed Branko. Branco's room was on
25 the right-hand side of the door. We talked a bit with his parents, and
1 then I followed him to his room.
2 Q. I have to ask you this, Mr. Kerkez, because we've met a couple of
3 times, but do you recall the times that you and I have met?
4 A. I do. I think it was in mid-May for the first time and then
5 after that twice in the course of August.
6 Q. And the two meetings in August were where?
7 A. They were held at the Balkan Hotel in downtown Belgrade.
8 Q. And you may not really remember, but do you remember what
9 restaurant in the Hotel Balkan we were at?
10 A. I remember it's on the ground floor, but I don't remember its
12 Q. Now, prior to May of 2008 or mid-May, as you say, 2008, did you
13 have an opportunity to meet with Milan Stanic?
14 A. Yes. Around mid-April. Milan Stanic gave me a phone call, we
15 met in his office at Stari Merkator in new Belgrade.
16 Q. And share with us, if you will, how is it that Milan Stanic and
17 you got together at his office, to the best of your knowledge?
18 A. The phone rang. He introduced himself and explained why he was
19 calling me. I thought it had to do with me, Branko, Vukasin, Boris, and
20 Emil still hung out together at the time, and we would sit down for a
21 drink. Branco's birthday was on the 12th of April as well. We met -- I
22 don't know if it was for his birthday or for some other reason, and we
23 discussed our past vacations, and I'm quite good at remembering details,
24 and I could remember a lot of things for each of the summers and the
25 things that happened. I presume that Branko had been in contact with Mr.
1 Milan Stanic, and he may have asked him to talk to me about what I could
3 Q. And any other meetings or discussions with Milan Stanic or any
4 members of our Defence team that you recall other than those that you've
5 mentioned and the most recent one when you came here, obviously, to The
6 Hague? Do you remember any other meetings that you may have had with us?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. I'm going to ask you this -- I'm going to ask you this, sir: Are
9 you certain that it was July 14th, 1995
10 when Branko told you it was Mr. Beara's birthday and that you left
11 subsequent the next day to this trip in Petrovac? Are you sure about the
12 year and the month?
13 A. Yes. I remember it for several reasons. One of those is because
14 once we learned that Branko would go, I rang up the lady in Petrovac and
15 I told her to secure the fifth bed as well. While we were at Branco's
16 place, I like to go out frequently, and I suggested that we should go
17 out. It was a Friday, and on Fridays and Saturdays we usually went out.
18 We discussed it a bit, and then we decided not to go out but, rather, to
19 try and save some money for the vacation. I remember it being a Friday
20 and that the next day, Saturday evening, we left.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ostojic, did the witness not say his vacation
22 was between 16th July and 1st of August?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Initially, I think he said -- and I'm -- from my
24 notes, I'm going the 16th through the 31st.
25 JUDGE KWON: Page 46, line 19.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. I'll clarify the issue because --
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 MR. OSTOJIC:
4 Q. Now, you stated that your vacation was from the 16th through the
5 31st of July, correct?
6 A. Yes, it is. I didn't count the 15th because that's when we set
7 off. The first day of vacation was the 16th. We arrived at the seaside
8 on the 16th.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
11 Q. I'm going to show you a couple of pictures and before I do, how
12 did we -- strike that. Do you remember meeting with me at the Hotel
13 Balkan restaurant and I asking you to see if you have any pictures or
14 anything that could help us further understand and appreciate the fact
15 that the vacation that you are dealing with and this meeting that you --
16 or this encounter with Mr. Beara in July of 1995 occurred? Do you
17 remember us discussing that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And then what did you tell me, sir? Do you remember what you
20 told me?
21 A. I remember. I think I said I supposed I had pictures because I
22 had pictures from most of my vacations, and I have a few of them with me
23 here. I thought I had more, but some have gotten lost on the way, I
24 guess, but this is what I have left.
25 Q. And then I asked you to give me those pictures, correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then a couple days or a day or two later, we met again in the
3 Balkan Hotel, and you gave me those five photographs, right?
4 A. No. We agreed that I should bring them. On the first occasion,
5 I didn't have them with me and I couldn't locate all of them, and I
6 handed them over to you just now. I tried locating some other
7 photographs with the twins on them, but I wasn't able to.
8 Q. If we can just have you for the record, with the Court's
9 permission and the usher's assistance, go through ever so briefly these
10 pictures to determine whether or not these are the ones you gave me and
11 what they depict.
12 Mr. Kerkez, if I may as proceed as they are placing the
13 photographs on the ELMO. Are these the five photographs that you gave me
14 which reflect that you and Branko Beara and others were in Petrovac in
16 A. Yes, the first photograph is at the Perazica Dol beach. From
17 left to right, we see a guy we met there from Zajecar. In the middle
18 standing in the blue swimming suit is Branko; next to him, Boris Cukic;
19 down left, that's me; then Emil Cukic and Vukasin Coveljic, this -- the
20 beach some 2 and a half kilometres away from Petrovac next to the As
22 Q. Okay. And we're going to mark these as evidence. I'm not sure
23 if the Court really needs to us to go through every picture. They're
24 very similar in nature, but I don't think it's necessary, but if the
25 Court wishes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Completely up to you, Mr. Ostojic.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Kerkez, I have no further questions for you. Thank you very
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, you asked for ten minutes.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no questions for this witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic.
8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic. Thank you, madame.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: No questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. Madam Fauveau.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Josse.
14 MR. JOSSE: Ditto.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa.
16 MR. SARAPA: No questions, thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So it's Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you.
19 Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to my friends.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
21 Q. And good morning, Mr. Kerkez. My name is Kweku Vanderpuye. On
22 behalf of the Prosecution, I'm going to put some questions to you in
23 relation to your testimony. If there's anything I ask you that's not
24 clear to you, just let me know, and I'll do my best to try and rephrase
25 it or restate it in a way that we can better understand one another.
1 Now, Mr. Ostojic just showed you a few photographs. Well,
2 actually, just one but I understand there are five photographs that you
3 managed to find concerning this vacation. And with respect to those
4 photographs, I notice that you are actually depicted in a couple. So
5 with respect to those photographs, can you tell us who took them?
6 A. I don't know. Probably a passerby that we asked to take
7 photographs of us at the Perazica Dol beach. Well, that's a lot of --
8 where a lot of people from Belgrade
9 of people there. We probably asked someone to take photographs of us.
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Do we have the five photographs, please. If you
12 could place them on the ELMO.
13 Q. Now, I don't really have a way of identifying these photographs
14 since they're not marked, but this first photograph that's on the ELMO
15 depicts six individuals, and you named them from left to right just a
16 moment ago, right, and that's you depicted in the left bottom corner of
17 that photograph, isn't it?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. All right. Can we put another photograph on there, please.
20 Thank you very much. All right. And can you tell us who the individuals
21 in this photograph are?
22 A. The same company as on the previous photograph. The left-hand
23 side guy is the one that I don't know because we met him there, and then
24 there's Emil, Vukasin, Branko, myself, and Boris. It's between Petrovac
25 and Perazica Dol. The island is a landmark of Petrovac.
1 Q. All right. And that's you depicted second from the right?
2 A. The island is something you can see on every postcard.
3 Q. Okay. And that's you the second from the right in that
4 photograph, right?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. By the way, it's a landmark. What's the name of that island?
7 A. Excuse me?
8 Q. This island is a landmark, you said. What its name?
9 A. I don't know. I never did. It is characteristic, however,
10 because it's some 500 metres away from Petrovac. We tried to swim out to
11 the island on a couple of occasions, but we never managed to. There's a
12 church there, I think, as well.
13 Q. Well, you'd been there, you said, three summers in a row, right?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one.
16 A. I was there a fourth summer, as well, some five years later with
17 a girlfriend of mine.
18 Q. Okay. And you -- is it that you don't recall the name of the
19 islands, or you never learned what its name was?
20 A. I think it bears the name of a saint, but I don't know. I never
21 inquired. I merely liked looking at it from the beach. I can tell you
22 the names of the bars there, but I can't tell you the name of the island.
23 Q. Fair enough. Let's go to the next picture, please. All right.
24 This one doesn't seem very clear on the ELMO.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you change the angle?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The three fingers, it was Branko
2 swimming in the sea holding the camera and taking a picture of us. That,
3 I remember distinctly.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE:
5 Q. Okay. Branco's holding the camera and taking the picture; is
6 that right?
7 A. And swimming, yes.
8 Q. So those are his fingers there, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And we can go to the next one, please. All right. That's
11 you in the middle, isn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And who are the two individuals on either side of you?
14 A. Well, the left-hand side, Boris Cukic, and then Emil Cukic, the
15 right-hand side. It's in front of the house where we spent the summer.
17 Q. All right. And where is the house that you spent the summer, by
18 the way?
19 A. In Petrovac, close to a restaurant which is a well known
20 restaurant. It's called Voda U Krsu, some 20 metres away from the house.
21 Q. Is that all of them? Okay. What I've noticed about these
22 photographs is that they're not -- they don't share the same dimensions.
23 So what I wanted to ask you is, are these photographs that were developed
24 from different films?
25 A. No. It was one roll, but these pictures may have been developed
1 -- or printed in different shops. I had a lousy camera at the time. Out
2 of the 36 photographs, maybe 15 turned out in total. But it's the same
3 roll of film; that, I'm sure of.
4 Q. You printed the same roll of film in different shops? Is that
5 what you are saying?
6 A. Yes. These photographs are the ones I made. We may have
7 exchanged each other's photographs, and they may have been printed in
8 different shops. These are the ones I was able to find at home.
9 Q. No, I understand that. My question is whether or not you
10 developed these films or perhaps you were given these photographs from
11 somebody else.
12 A. Yes. Well, I developed them, but then the twins developed their
13 own, and everyone else did. I can't tell you exactly which were printed
14 by me.
15 Q. All right. Well, with respect to the ones that were printed by
16 you, where did you have them developed?
17 A. I can't remember, but I remember that I went to the Lipa company
18 because they were cheap. They were actually the cheapest in Belgrade
19 somewhere around the Boulevard of the Revolution in Belgrade, if I can
20 remember it well. Currently, the street name is the Boulevard of King
22 Q. And do you remember when you had them developed?
23 A. Immediately after the end of that holiday.
24 Q. So that would have been around when, exactly?
25 A. I suppose it was in August. I don't think that it was even more
1 than ten days after. As soon as we returned I developed them, and I
2 remember that I was really disappointed to see how many photos actually
3 turned out well of the whole roll of film.
4 Q. All right. Now, in these photographs, you say this is in 1995,
5 you would have been 17 years old; is that right?
6 A. Correct, yes.
7 Q. Your friend Branko, how old was he at that time?
8 A. The same age. The difference between the two of us is two
9 months. I was born on the 15th February, and he was born on the 12th of
11 Q. Boris?
12 A. We were all of the same age. Boris's birthday is in October,
13 23rd of October. Actually, the twins were born on the 23rd of October,
14 and Vukasin was born seven days after on the 20th. We were all peers.
15 We went to the same grade. We are of the same age.
16 Q. Now, you were asked a few questions about when it was that you
17 were contacted by the members of the Defence for Mr. Beara. Do you
18 remember that?
19 A. I remember that Milan Stanic called me, introduced himself as a
20 lawyer, and we met in mid-April this year in his office.
21 Q. And where did he call you? Where were you when you received this
23 A. You mean at the moment when the phone went off or where we met?
24 Q. No, where the phone went off, where you received the call.
25 A. I really don't remember.
1 Q. Okay. And did he introduce himself on the telephone when you
2 spoke to him?
3 A. Yes, he introduced himself. He gave me his first and last names.
4 He said that he was Branco's father's lawyer and that he would like to
5 meet with me to talk about the summer 1995. I suppose that before that
6 Branko had spoken to him and told him that I remembered that summer.
7 Q. All right. Do you remember the date that he called you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you remember the day of the week that he called you?
10 A. No. I remember the time that we met, but I don't remember when
11 he called me. I know that it was sometime in mid-April that I went to
12 his office, and I believe that he called me just a day before that, and I
13 paid a visit to his office on the 15th of April, as far as I can
15 Q. Did he explain to you on the telephone when he called you what he
16 wanted to speak to you about in particular?
17 A. Yes, very briefly. It was a brief conversation, and I did not
18 find this to be a problem. Branko is my friend. I was asked to talk
19 about that summer. I went, did that without any prior explanation.
20 Q. Well, let's talk about when you went to meet Mr. Stanic for a
21 little bit. Do you remember where you went to go meet him?
22 A. I remember. I went to his office, which is in the old Merkato
23 building in new Belgrade
24 Q. Is that on a weekday or a weekend?
25 A. It was on a weekday. It was raining. That's what I remember.
1 Q. Was it in the morning or the afternoon?
2 A. Around noon
3 was in the middle of the day.
4 Q. Do you know where you came from to get to his office?
5 A. From home. Actually, no, no, no, not from home. It was raining
6 heavily, so I took my brother by car to Ada Ciganlija where he works as a
7 diver. The traffic was very busy on that day. I had to cross a bridge.
8 I was delayed in traffic, so I was late for the meeting, I remember.
9 Q. All right. And did you arrive at the meeting by yourself, or did
10 you arrive there with anybody else?
11 A. On my own. I parked the car, and I met up with Milan.
12 Q. And you met him in his office, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. He hadn't met you before, right?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you introduced yourself, I take it; you sat down and you had a
17 conversation with him, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You sat down; you had a conversation with him, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He asked you questions about the summer of 1995, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Well, what did he ask you?
24 A. Well, nothing much. He asked me what I remembered about that
25 particular vacation, and I told him.
1 Q. So he asked you in particular about the vacation; is that right?
2 A. No. First we had a cup of coffee, and then I arrived at the
3 conclusion that Branko and him had already had a conversation because
4 maybe a week or so before that all of us had sat down and we reminisced
5 on things such as parties and stuff, and then we also remembered that
6 holiday that we were there all of us together, Vukasin -- the five of us.
7 The summer before, that I spent my holiday with Vukasin Coveljic and in
8 1996 I holidayed with the twins and two other friends from my school,
9 Miroslav and Dimitrij. So Branko realised that I remembered some of the
10 details of summer of 1995, and I also remember that I organised a summer
11 holidays in 1996 for some other friends.
12 Q. How many times have you met Mr. Stanic?
13 A. Twice.
14 Q. Twice?
15 A. Twice.
16 Q. Because on page 61, line 14, of the transcript you refer to him
17 as "Milan
18 A. No, Mr. Milan Stanic. I never realized I was supposed to give
19 his full name. I saw him then in his office and then at the Balkan
20 hotel, and Mr. John -- Mr. John Ostojic, rather, was there as well. In
22 their title, Mr. and then their first name, and that's a habit. So
23 instead of referring to them by their full name, I only use their first
25 Q. Okay. So you gathered that Mr. Stanic had spoken to Branko Beara
1 because you had a conversation with Branko Beara and the rest of your
2 friends a week beforehand talking about this very vacation?
3 A. Yes, we discussed that summer as well.
4 Q. What did you all recall together about that vacation when you sat
5 down and talked about it?
6 A. We remembered some anecdotes, girls that we met and similar
7 things, and we also remembered how it hadn't been very difficult for all
8 of us to get together and spend the holiday together. It was a very
9 specific situation because we had not known until the last moment whether
10 Branko would go because there was no bed for him, and finally he ended up
11 on a bunk bed. We had reserved four beds, and then he decided to join
12 us. We did not change our reservations because we would have had to pay
13 for that fifth bed, so we made it.
14 Q. I understand all that. What I'm asking you is what it is that
15 you discussed when you sat down together and remembered this event
16 together. You talked about the vacation, right, where you went?
17 A. I don't know. We talked about things that we had done. There
18 were some girls that we liked. Then every day we went to this Perazica
19 beach. It was interesting because we made our own meals; we tidied our
20 room. For five of us together on the ground floor of that house, Branko,
21 for example, liked to have a lie-in, so every morning I would throw
22 grapes at him to wake him up. That was one of the anecdotes that we
23 shared and remembered in that conversation.
24 Q. When was the last time you got together with your friends in that
25 way before that conversation?
1 A. Before that conversation, we gathered for Branco's birthday.
2 Branko took us out to the Plastic Disco Club on the 12th of April.
3 Q. So on the 12th of April, you went out for Branco's birthday;
4 sometime after that, you had this conversation?
5 A. It was possible even before that because we get together at least
6 once a week. We get together in a pub, in my favourite pub where I
7 always invite them to. Now, whether we had that conversation on a day
8 before or after that evening -- well, whenever we go out we have a couple
9 of drinks and we always talk about similar things.
10 Q. All right. So the time you got together before you had this
11 conversation, did you talk about these same things then as well?
12 A. We always talk about the places we went to, the girls that we
13 meet. I really can't remember the exact date when we mentioned that
14 holiday, but we often talk about holidays. The next year I holidayed
15 with the twins, but over the past five or six years we'll go spend
16 holidays with our girlfriends, so our get-togethers during the summer
17 have been somewhat reduced, and we miss that, so we like to go back to
18 the days when we could spend holidays together.
19 Q. No, I understand that, Mr. Kerkez, and I'm not asking you about
20 habits and things that you usually do. I'm asking about a very specific
21 thing, and what I'm asking you about this particular is, well, you say
22 that you met Mr. Stanic and before that you had a conversation with
23 Branko Beara concerning this vacation, and I'm asking you now about the
24 time, any time, or the most recent time that you met with Branko Beara
25 and your friends before that conversation. That's what I'm asking you.
1 So I'd like to know if you can recall when was the last time you met
2 Branko Beara before you had the conversation that was before you went to
3 Mr. Stanic's office?
4 A. I understand what you are asking me. The last time I was with
5 them, on the 12th of April in the evening in the Plastic Disco Club, but
6 I can't remember when I spoke with Branko about that specific summer. I
7 only concluded when Stanic had invited me for a conversation that Branko
8 must have told him that I remembered the details of that holiday. But
9 when it was that I actually talked about that with Branko, I really can't
10 remember because there were several such conversations, so it's
11 impossible for me to remember the exact date when I mentioned that
12 particular holiday with Branko. And it was not just me who talked about
13 that. There were the five of us, and it could have been even in March,
14 and Branko could have remembered that and spoke to the lawyer and then
15 the lawyer invited me to talk to him about that.
16 Q. All right. So -- all right. You met Mr. Stanic. Mr. Stanic
17 asked you certain questions. You say he asked you about that summer,
18 right, summer of 1995?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what in particular did he ask you?
21 A. Well, it was a relaxed conversation. He asked me what I
22 remember. I really didn't know what was important, but I provided him
23 with everything that I remembered about that particular summer.
24 Q. Well, did he ask you in particular about July 1995 or June of
25 1995 or May or August of 1995? What specifically about the summer did he
1 ask you?
2 A. Well, nothing much. He asked me when I went on holiday and
3 whether I remembered that, and I said I remembered exactly when I
4 returned because it's the same every year. This year, for example, I
5 spent my holiday with a girlfriend, and I remembered [as interpreted] on
6 the 1st of August, and I remember this particular holiday because there
7 were some problems with the five of us going, and I am very good with
8 remembering people's birthdays, telephone numbers. I was the organiser
9 of that particular holiday. I was in charge of arranging the
10 accommodation. I knew that lady in Petrovac who was the landlady. I
11 phoned her, and it took several conversations for me to confirm how many
12 of us were finally coming.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Sorry, I think I heard and we can always check it,
15 on page 66, line 7, the witness said: "This year, for example, I spent
16 my holiday with a girlfriend, and I returned on the 1st of August." But
17 it says "I remembered on the first of August."
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Ostojic. Yes, Mr.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. At the time you were living with your parents, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The time that you met Mr. Stanic, you were living at home?
24 A. I live with my brother and my father. My mother died three years
25 ago in 2005.
1 Q. Okay. Now, at the time in 1995 that you discussed with Mr.
2 Stanic, you were living at home, right?
3 A. Yes. I lived with my parents and my brother.
4 Q. And you told him that, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And he asked for their names, right?
7 A. Yes. Branislav and Ljubisa are my parents.
8 Q. Well, I'm asking you whether or not Mr. Stanic asked you those
10 A. Yes, he did. I introduced myself and, yes, he did ask me.
11 Q. He asked you how to get ahold of them, right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. He didn't ask to get ahold of the people you were living with
14 back in 1995 when you took that vacation? He didn't ask you that
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. And you didn't give him that information either,
19 A. Information about what?
20 Q. How to reach your brother and whoever else you were living with
21 in 1995 --
22 A. No.
23 Q. -- when you say you went on vacation?
24 A. No, we did not talk about that. I only talked about the holiday
25 and what I remembered of that holiday.
1 Q. Okay. When did you finish school that summer? When did you get
3 A. Around the 20th of June. That's the same every year.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap and make
5 pauses between answers and questions.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Towards the -- mid-June all the
7 marks are already in place, so nothing much goes on on the three or four
8 last day of the school, and it's very difficult to remember the specific
9 date when the school ends every year, but it's around the 20th of June.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. All right. But you don't remember now that I'm speaking to you,
13 A. The last day of the school that year?
14 Q. Yeah. The last day of the school year in July -- in 1995.
15 A. No, I can't remember.
16 Q. How long did this meeting last with Mr. Stanic in April when you
17 met with him?
18 A. Not more than an hour. We exchanged words about that summer
19 holiday. I told him what I remembered, and then I left.
20 Q. And when you met with Mr. Stanic, he impressed upon you the
21 importance of the information that you were giving him, didn't he?
22 A. No, not really. We just chatted. We just spoke about some
23 details. It was only subsequently that I learned why I was supposed to
24 come here.
25 Q. When is it that you learned why you were supposed to come here?
1 A. When I met up with Mr. John Ostojic on the second time round.
2 Q. During the time you spoke to Mr. Stanic in April, were you under
3 the impression that you had to give him everything or tell him everything
4 that you could remember about that summer?
5 A. It was something like a spontaneous, relaxed chat. I did not
6 feel hard-pressed to tell things. I just remembered things and told Mr.
7 Stanic what I remembered about that summer.
8 Q. All right. But were you -- let's say were you careful about what
9 you said? Were you thinking about what you were telling him so as not to
10 mislead him or give information incorrectly?
11 A. No. I did not give it too much thought. I just told him how
12 things were and what I remembered about that particular summer.
13 Q. Did you tell him at the time that you met him in April that you
14 had met with Branko Beara not a week before that and discussed the same
15 thing with him? Did you tell Mr. Stanic that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you tell him that you discussed it amongst your other friends
18 as well?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Stanic that you had a discussion with
21 Branko Beara about the subject matter of your testimony here today, which
22 is this vacation in July of 1995? Did you ever tell Mr. Stanic about
24 A. Mr. Stanic invited me, introduced himself, and when I went to his
25 office I assumed that he had already seen Branko, that Branko told him
1 that I remembered that vacation, and that that was the reason why he had
2 invited me to come for this meeting in his office. That's how I
3 understood the whole situation. Otherwise, how would Mr. Stanic even
4 knew that I existed had Branko not told him that we were friends and that
5 we spent one summer together?
6 Q. You make a very good point. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer my
7 question. My question is, did you tell Mr. Stanic that you met with
8 Branko Beara before you met with him? Did you tell him that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And did you ever tell him that? To this day that I'm talking to
11 you now, did you ever tell him that you met with Branko Beara not a week
12 before you met with him?
13 A. Yes. I told him just like I have told you that we get together
14 quite often, at least once a week, and I never made it a point of telling
15 him that I might have seen him two or three days prior to our meeting.
16 At that time I did not find this important, just like I don't see any
17 importance of that now. My conversation with Mr. Stanic was a relaxed,
18 spontaneous exchange.
19 Q. All right. You met at a later point with Mr. Ostojic, right?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And when did that occur?
22 A. In the second half of May.
23 Q. Second half of May of this year, 2008, right?
24 A. This year, yes. All of this has happened this year, my meeting
25 with Mr. Stanic, my meeting with Mr. Ostojic.
1 Q. Well, let me put the same question to you, then, again: Did you
2 ever tell Mr. Ostojic that you met with Branko Beara and discussed with
3 him this vacation before you met with him, Mr. Ostojic?
4 A. I did not tell him because I assumed that Mr. Ostojic knew that
5 we had this habit of getting together and seeing each other every now and
7 Q. Well, with all due respect --
8 A. It's only logical.
9 Q. When you say you have this habit of getting together, what you
10 are talking about is you have a habit of getting together and talking
11 about a specific vacation in July 1995? Is that what you're saying?
12 A. No, that's not what I'm saying.
13 Q. And so does it make any sense that Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Stanic
14 have assumed that you've discussed these issues just because you get
16 A. I see where you are coming from, but what I'm saying is that I
17 don't really know when it was when this subject of a vacation came up in
18 one of our get-togethers, and I suppose that after that Branko spoke to
19 Milan Stanic who then called me. I suppose that Branko said to Mr. Milan
20 Stanic that he had seen me and that we had discussed things, summer
21 holidays included, and that's why Stanic called me. And that's why I'm
22 saying that I never saw the need to mention to anybody that the subject
23 of summer 1995 came up in any particular conversation, and it did.
24 Q. So but for your testimony here today - today - nobody knows how
25 many times you've spoken to Branko Beara and the rest of your friends
1 about the subject matter of your testimony, which is this vacation,
2 because you didn't think to mention it to anybody; is that what you are
4 A. I apologise. I really don't understand; what are you asking me?
5 Q. How many times have you spoken to Branko Beara about this
6 vacation that you have not told either Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Stanic, or
7 anybody else?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: I think he mischaracterizes the testimony and the
10 evidence that we've heard today.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so, but let me hear Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 Can you explain where he is mischaracterising the testimony according to
13 you, Mr. Ostojic, because frankly -- I mean, I'm not saying that you are
14 not right but I can't see --
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe I'm having the same trouble as the witness
16 understanding the question, so -- with all due respect. The way the
17 question is put, there's two of them there, although the second one here
18 says: "How many times have you spoken to Branko Beara about this
19 vacation that you have not told either Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Stanic, or anyone
20 else?" I'll object to the form of the question. I don't understand the
21 question, either, but I think -- I think I know what he's trying to say,
22 but I think it could be broken down so we can all understand it, if I can
23 say that, with all due respect.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not really troubled with the question. If you
25 follow up the previous questions and answers, particularly the one where
1 he explained why he didn't bother to mention it. Yes. Mr. Vanderpuye,
2 anyway, if you can be, perhaps, more clear.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll try TO --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could rephrase the question. I don't know.
5 I'm not forcing you to because I think it's clear enough but --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I understand. If you are
7 asking me how many times I may have spoken with Branko about that summer
8 in the past 13 years, it could have been over 20 times.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE:
10 Q. All right. Did you mention that to Mr. Stanic at any point
11 before today?
12 A. In that sense, yes.
13 Q. And did you mention that to Mr. Ostojic before today?
14 A. That I had talked about it with my friends, reminiscing our
16 Q. No, no. Specific details about it, when it was taken, where you
17 went, what you did, what bars you went to, what girls you saw, that kind
18 of stuff.
19 A. Yes. Mr. Ostojic knows that too. I told that to Mr. Ostojic.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's time for the break.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kerkez.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. All right. I think when we left off I had just asked you about
5 the information that you had provided to Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Stanic
6 regarding your conversations with Branko Beara about this vacation. Now,
7 when you met Mr. Stanic in April of this year, you told him about the
8 vacation, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You told him where you went, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You told him how long you went for, right?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. You told him that you went there by bus, right?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. You told him that you left at night and you arrived in the
17 morning in Petrovac, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you told him that you were at Branko's house the day before
20 you left for your trip, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you tell him that you were there for about an hour or two
23 hours, right, two or two and a half hours?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And you told him in particular that you had met Mr. Beara and his
1 wife, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You told him that there were other people that were there, right?
4 A. That is right.
5 Q. People that you didn't know?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. And you told him that you left there without Branko, right, on
8 that day?
9 A. He stayed at home.
10 Q. That's right. You left his house and he stayed at home with his
11 father and his mother and the other people in the house, right?
12 A. That is right.
13 Q. You told Mr. Stanic all of that in April of this year, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You told him that you were at that house on the 14th of July
16 1995, right?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Now, when you had this conversation with your friends before you
19 met Mr. Stanic in April, you talked about the vacation that you had,
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. The vacation in 1995, in July 1995, right?
23 A. [No verbal response]
24 Q. Sir, we don't -- I don't have an answer on the record, I don't
25 think. If you could repeat your answer it would be, I think, helpful.
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. And you talked about the bars that you went to and the girls that
3 you saw, right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And you also talked about the fact that you were at Branko's
6 house the day before you went on vacation, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you talked about the fact that you were at his house while
9 his dad was there and his mom was there, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that there was a party going on or there were other people in
12 the house, right? You talked about that when you met with them before
13 you met Mr. Stanic, right?
14 A. Yes, but it wasn't a party. There were some older people sitting
15 there. Maybe they were around 50 -- their 50s or so. I just said hello
16 and followed Branko to his room.
17 Q. And you talked about other vacations that you had together,
19 A. You mean with my friends?
20 Q. With your friends.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what vacation did you talk about with them when you met with
23 them before seeing Mr. Stanic other than the one in 1995? What vacation
24 did you talk about with them?
25 A. I spoke with my friends about the summer of 1996, for instance,
1 because all of us were there that year, save for Branko, and there were
2 another two guys from the school. We were at the same house, and we had
3 a good time that year as well.
4 Q. So you went to the same place in Petrovac, right?
5 A. Yes. It was my third time to be in that house.
6 Q. Okay. And when did you leave for that vacation?
7 A. The same period, towards the end of August. But the next year we
8 were there for about ten days because it became more expensive. Rather
9 than a night being 10 German marks, it was 15, so we went later that
11 Q. Do you remember what day, what date you went?
12 A. I can't recall the exact date, but I do remember being at the
13 preparations in my club on the 1st of August; therefore, it must have
14 been the end of July.
15 Q. Right. Well, do you remember what you were doing the day before
16 you left in 1996?
17 A. I don't. I did see the same guys I spent the summer with during
18 the day, and we arranged who was going to take what, who was going to
19 take food, ball, and we were at Dimitri's place in Sarajevska Street. He
20 spent that summer with us, but I don't remember the exact date.
21 Q. Okay. Let me just bounce back to 1995 for a minute, then. Do
22 you remember what day you came back from Petrovac?
23 A. It was a Saturday. It was exactly two weeks. I wanted to be
24 back on Sunday to have a rest and start my practice on Monday.
25 Q. Okay. Did you come back with all of your friends on that
2 A. Yes. We had a return ticket from Belgrade, and we all headed
3 back together.
4 Q. Okay. When you went down to Petrovac in the first place, you
5 said you called a lady in advance to book a room or an apartment, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was her name?
8 A. I don't remember. I did have her name and phone number jotted
9 down in an address book, but it was then. I don't really remember it. I
10 was back in 2003 with my girlfriend, but we didn't stay with that lady.
11 Q. You don't remember her first name?
12 A. I don't. I only remember that the house was enormous and that
13 one half the house belonged to one brother and the other half to the
14 other brother, and the lady was one of the brothers' wife. I remember
15 where the house was, but I can't recall her first or last name.
16 Q. Do you know the address of the house?
17 A. No. Visually, I know where it is, but I don't know what the
18 address is. Petrovac is a small place. There may be three or four
19 streets with a name there altogether.
20 Q. Well, if I ask it this way, do you know the name of the street
21 the house is on?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. When you went there in 1995, that wasn't the first time
24 that you had been to that house; isn't that right?
25 A. It was the second time.
1 Q. And you've been there, you say, on how many occasions since?
2 A. The next year, 1996, it was the third time. After that I didn't
3 spend summers there. In the meantime I lost her phone number.
4 Otherwise, I liked Petrovac as a place since the beach is towards the
5 open sea, and when I was there in 2003 with my girlfriend, I couldn't
6 find that lady's phone number, and we simply went to Petrovac and found
7 accommodation there and then.
8 Q. I see. So you were actually looking for that number in 2003; is
9 that what you are saying?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you believed you had it --
12 A. Because I liked the house and the accommodation.
13 Q. And you believed you had that number even though the last time
14 you had been there was in 1996?
15 A. Yes. I hoped so, because I tried to keep my notebooks and stuff,
16 but I couldn't find that piece of information. When I was down in
17 Petrovac, I did go to the very house, but they did not have any rooms
18 available anymore, and we went to another house, which was further up the
20 Q. Now, during your meetings with Mr. Ostojic, of course, you let
21 him know this, right, that is, that you couldn't remember the name of the
22 lady whose house --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You told him that?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. And you told him where the house was as far as you could
3 A. No. I recalled now where it was. I told you that it was next to
4 the restaurant Voda U Krsu, but as far as Mr. Stanic goes, I only told
5 him it was in Petrovac.
6 Q. Okay. What about as far as Mr. Ostojic goes? Did you tell him
7 it was next to this restaurant when you met him?
8 A. Mr. Ostojic? Who is that? No, I didn't share that detail with
9 him, that the house was next to the restaurant.
10 Q. Didn't he ask you about where the house was?
11 A. No, it's a small place.
12 Q. I understand that, but I assume it has more than one house,
14 A. Yes, but I didn't share that detail.
15 Q. And he didn't ask you; is that right?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And he didn't ask you for the woman's name, either, right?
18 A. He did, but I couldn't recall it.
19 Q. And when you met with Mr. Ostojic in May of 2008 at this Hotel
20 Balkan, how long did you meet with him?
21 A. Not more than an hour, perhaps three-quarters of an hour.
22 Q. And when you met with Mr. Ostojic, he impressed upon you how
23 important your testimony was, right, or the information, I should say,
24 that you were giving him was, right?
25 A. Yes. But if I may add, there may have been another interesting
1 thing. The reason why I remember that particular summer is this:
2 Whenever we find -- we meet, we called Branko's father Pape between --
3 inside our circle, and we called him that because he spent a lot of time
4 in Dalmatia
5 to him as Pape, and so we did on that occasion as well. And Vukasin
6 keeps going back to that detail and telling us about in.
7 Q. Vukasin keeps going back to that detail and telling you about it
8 when? When did he tell you about it?
9 A. Whenever we tried to recall that summer since, as I said already,
10 that we didn't know if Branko was going to go. His father brought the
11 money, and instead of bringing fresh food Branko had tin cans from the
12 army, and he kept offering us that. We kept refusing. He had a military
13 sack, and quite often Vukasin would tease him, oh, it was Pape who
14 brought you the money.
15 Q. Well, since you met Mr. Stanic in April, have you spoken to
16 Branko or Vukasin or Boris or Emil?
17 A. About that?
18 Q. About that.
19 A. Yes. But it was casual conversation, and I told them that I met
20 with an attorney. We are really good friends, and we share all sorts of
21 things, and I did mention I had that conversation.
22 Q. Did Branko ever tell you that he met with an attorney?
23 A. He didn't, but since it is his father who is here, I presumed he
24 had contacts with attorneys. Otherwise, Branko didn't like discussing
25 his father much.
1 Q. All right. And how many times did you converse with your friends
2 about this subject after you met Mr. Stanic?
3 A. Only once. Perhaps right after I saw Mr. Stanic. We don't talk
4 about such things. We talk about other things.
5 Q. You don't talk about things like what, like meeting lawyers?
6 A. Yes. Well, we mention things. We share what is going on at our
7 jobs or with our girlfriends, but after that we were talking about other
8 new things.
9 Q. All right. And when you met with your friends and talked -- and
10 told them that you had met with an attorney, what specifically did you
11 tell them that you spoke about with the attorney?
12 A. Nothing. I just told him I saw this attorney, he is Branko's
13 father's attorney, and I told him about the summer we spent together.
14 Q. Any of your friends asked you about this attorney, what did he
15 want to know, was it interesting, was it boring? They didn't ask you
16 anything about it?
17 A. In principle, no. I told them about it. I told them
18 Attorney-At-Law Milan
19 to Branko, and Branko in our conversation following the event when we met
20 in early April probably talked to the attorney, and he told him that I
21 recall things. When we were going back to that summer, I seemed to be
22 the one who remembered the most out of the five.
23 Q. Out of the five including Branko, are you saying?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You remember more than Branko does about this vacation and where
1 you were before you left and everything?
2 A. Most likely.
3 Q. Well, you say you seem to be the one that remembers the most.
4 Why do you say that?
5 A. Since he mentioned to Milan Stanic that I can recall many
6 details, I presume that his recollection is poorer than mine. That's why
7 I said probably or likely.
8 Q. Well, you've talked to him about this vacation, right?
9 A. With Branko?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. As I said, from time to time we go back to that vacation, but
12 after I spoke with the attorney, we didn't discuss that particularly.
13 For some reason of his, he noticed that I can recall many details. He
14 probably gave my phone number to the attorney, and in turn he called me.
15 Q. Having discussed this with him, what kind of details do you
16 remember that he doesn't?
17 A. For example, the date when we left, for example. He couldn't
18 recall that.
19 Q. He doesn't remember the date that you left?
20 A. He doesn't.
21 Q. He doesn't remember that the date that you left according to you
22 was the day after his father's birthday, right?
23 A. Well, he remembers that, but he doesn't remember some details to
24 the extent I do. For example, he doesn't remember the moment when we
25 were sitting in a pizzeria and after a beer he sort of started staring
1 into the distance and started crying because he said it reminded him so
2 much of Split
4 Q. All right. So Branko, Mr. Beara's son who stayed home on the
5 14th with his father, doesn't remember that he left that summer the next
6 day, right?
7 A. No, he remembers that for sure because his father brought him the
8 money the day before the travel. He really wanted to go with us. Ever
9 since he had left Split
10 forget that, but he forgot some other details which happened during the
11 vacation itself. Your first question was whether my recollection of the
12 vacation is better than Branko's, and I said most likely having in mind
13 these things.
14 Q. Well, what you said is: "For example, he doesn't recall the date
15 when we left." That would be the 15th of July according to what you've
16 testified to today, right?
17 A. Well, it was at the moment when I told you that he, as I said,
18 probably doesn't remember the vacation better than I do, but each one of
19 us friends remembers things. For example, I know that it was on the 14th
20 in the evening. We liked going out on Friday, but I couldn't press them
21 into it because Branko said he still didn't have the money, et cetera,
22 et cetera. I remember all that, and he shared it with me when I joined
23 him in his room. The rest of the guys joined with him because they
24 didn't want him to be left out. I was the one who organised that
25 vacation. I booked the room, and we had to go back for our sports
1 preparations. That's how I recall the date.
2 Q. Mr. Kerkez, isn't one of the reasons that you recall the date
3 because Branko didn't go out with you because he said that it was his
4 father's birthday? Isn't that one of the reasons why you recall the
6 A. No, that's not the only reason. I remember it being a Friday. I
7 remember we spent a fortnight at the sea. One of the things I remember
8 was that Branko didn't want to go out with us because he had not seen his
9 father for quite a long time and he wanted to stay with him, and they had
11 Q. I didn't ask you if it was the only reason. I asked you if it
12 was one of the reasons. Did Branko tell you on the day that you went to
13 his house that it was his father's birthday? Did he tell you that?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. And so your testimony is that he couldn't recall the date when
16 you left, which was the next day, right?
17 A. That's not right. Some five minutes ago, I told you that I
18 remember more things about the vacation than Branko does.
19 Q. That's right, and I asked you for an example, right? And you
20 said: "For example" --
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. -- "the date when we left." He couldn't recall that, right?
23 A. That is right. I did say that, but then I corrected myself
24 because all five of us frequently remember that.
25 Q. When you met with Mr. Ostojic in May of 2008, you met with him
1 for about an hour, right?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. And did he take notes about what you were telling him?
4 A. Yes. He was writing it down.
5 Q. And he wrote down what you told him, right?
6 A. He wrote down some things with a pencil on a plain sheet of
7 paper. He would jot down a word or two.
8 Q. Okay. And what about when you met Mr. Stanic in April 2008? Did
9 he write down what you were saying?
10 A. No, he did not keep any notes as far as I recall. We only
12 Q. Okay. And you met with Mr. Ostojic just recently, right?
13 A. Right. In August.
14 Q. In August. And what did you discuss with him when you met with
15 him the second time?
16 A. Specifically, he told me that I will have to come here to testify
17 about the summer.
18 Q. All right. And in particular about the 14th of July, right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Your recollections of being in the Beara house on the 14th of
21 July, right?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And did you tell him at that time that you had a conversation
24 with Branko about these particular circumstances?
25 A. I don't understand the question. Whether I talked to him on that
1 day, the 14th of July, or --
2 Q. I'll rephrase the question. Did you tell Mr. Ostojic in August
3 or in May that you had had a conversation with Branko Beara after you met
4 with Mr. Stanic about these circumstances? Did you tell Mr. Ostojic
6 A. Not directly, but Mr. Ostojic must have presumed that we talked
7 about it since we hang out together frequently.
8 Q. When you say "not directly," does that mean, no, you didn't tell
9 him that?
10 A. I didn't tell him that.
11 Q. Did you tell Mr. Ostojic that Branko could not recall the events
12 that you could recall?
13 A. I did not because, to repeat, my presumption is that Mr. Milan
14 Stanic got in touch with me because Branko estimated that I could recall
15 the most details of the five. That's probably the same reason why I
16 later met Mr. Ostojic.
17 Q. Was that what Mr. Stanic told you? Did he tell you that?
18 A. What? That Branko had given him my phone number or what?
19 Q. No, that Branko estimated that you could recall the most details
20 of the five of you? Did he tell you that?
21 A. No, he didn't tell me that. That is my assumption, and I usually
22 remember more than anybody else when it comes to certain things.
23 Q. Well, do you remember more than the other friends that you have
24 in common, like Boris and Emil? Do you remember more than them about
25 this summer of July 1995?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Well, what kinds of things do you remember that they
3 don't about this trip?
4 A. Well, let me tell you why. I was the main organiser of the whole
5 trip, and they just end up and had a good time. I bought their bus
6 tickets and reserved the room, and they just met me at the departure
7 points, so I suppose that some of those things they can't remember
8 because they were not important. They just are not in the position to
9 remember, and as for what happened while we were there on the coast, I
10 suppose that all of us remember more or less the same things. I was very
11 heavily involved in the organisation, much more than any of them, and
12 that's why I remember those things particularly well.
13 Q. Did they ever tell you that they couldn't remember the date that
14 you left?
15 A. As I say, we did not talk much after my conversation with Mr.
16 Stanic. I told them that I met up with the lawyer, but we did not talk
17 much. I never spoke with them about the possibly -- the possibility of
18 them remembering the date. I consider that an opportunity to ask them.
19 It didn't come up.
20 Q. All right. But it came up before you met Mr. Stanic, and it just
21 so happened that during the course of this conversation, a week before
22 you met Mr. Stanic, that you discussed this vacation in 1995 and that you
23 stopped at Branko's house and met Branko's mother and father. That just
24 happened to come up; is that right?
25 A. No, I didn't mention it then. I just assumed that Branko
1 estimated that I had remembered more than anybody, and when Mr. Stanic
2 asked me, I gave him all the details, not in the way I normally talk to
3 my friends because when I talk to my friends it's not a
4 question-and-answer session. It's a spontaneous, relaxed conversation.
5 When you get together to your friends, are you quizzed or do you expect
6 to have to answer questions from them? I suppose that you talk
7 spontaneously in a relaxed manner.
8 Q. Yes, indeed I do. I'm glad you asked. But how is it that when
9 you get together with your friends and talk about and reminisce about the
10 past, you just happen to come up with a conversation that concerns the
11 subject matter of your testimony and a meeting that comes up a week
13 A. I really did not select the moment when we will talk about that.
14 It so happens we have a beer, we get involved in a conversation about the
15 times past. I don't know when Branko had got in touch with Milan Stanic.
16 I only know that Milan Stanic asked me to come to his office to talk
17 about that particular summer, and during that conversation I shared with
18 him some details of that summer.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more do you have?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Not that much more, Your Honour. I think about
23 -- well, we're done in 10 minutes, right?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I think it is.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I can finish in 10 minutes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination? Not that you know of.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Not likely, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. When Branko called you to come over to his house in July - this
8 is just before you left - where were you when you got this call?
9 A. At home. There were no mobile phones at the time. I was home,
10 and the distance between our two houses is maybe ten minutes. He asked
11 me to come over, and I walked to his place, and then when I got there he
12 told me that he would be joining us on that holiday.
13 Q. Did he invite anybody else over, any of Your other friends?
14 A. Yes, yes. Boris, Emil, and Vukasin were also there.
15 Q. So those two were also at the house at the same time as you?
16 A. Actually, three.
17 Q. Okay. They were all at the house at the same time as you, right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. They all met Mr. Beara, right?
20 A. I suppose so. Well, I was the first one to arrive there, and we
21 waited for the others to turn up. They live a bit further away. I don't
22 know whether they spoke to the parents or whether Branko opened the door
23 and took them immediately to his room.
24 Q. All right. Well, they were in the house at the same time as
25 Mr. Beara, right?
1 A. Which Mr. Beara? They were both there. We were all there at the
2 same time.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. Just joking. Yes, we were all in the house. We were in Branko's
5 room, the five of them, and then in the living-room and on the terrace.
6 Mr. and Mrs. Beara were entertaining their guests.
7 Q. All right. And when you met Mr. Beara, what was he wearing?
8 A. I really can't remember. I believe that he had short sleeves and
9 short trousers. It was summer, after all, but I really can't remember.
10 Q. All right. And what were they doing when you arrived at the
12 A. Branko answered the door, and maybe two steps behind I saw his
13 father standing. I suppose he was also expecting somebody. I greeted
14 Branko's father. I had not seen him in a long time. We exchanged
15 pleasantries. He was always in a good mood. He was always joking. He
16 was laughing at something. I spent maybe a couple of minutes in casual
17 conversation with him, and then Branko took me to his room.
18 Q. Well, when was the time that you saw him before that time? When
19 was the time you last saw him?
20 A. I really can't remember. I did see him every now and then when
21 he was in Belgrade
22 Q. All right. So you don't remember the time you saw him before
23 that day, right?
24 A. I hadn't seen him in a long time, so when I saw him that time
25 around, I was taken by surprise. I asked him how he was doing. I
1 suppose I had not seen him for maybe two or three months, even.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. Well, truth be told, I wasn't in their house every day.
4 Q. Now, you've been to that house, I assume, on a number of
5 occasions, right?
6 A. Yes, quite often.
7 Q. You know the house very well, right?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Had anything in the house changed since the last time you were
11 A. Has anything changed since the last time or had something
12 changed? Well, things have changed over the 10 or 15 years that they've
13 lived there but not much. There is, however, major change. They laid
14 laminate floor in the apartment since they first moved in, but that's
15 about all.
16 Q. Perhaps my question was a little inartful. Had anything in the
17 house changed before the time you were last there and the time that you
18 were there and you saw Mr. Beara and his wife and the guests, et cetera?
19 Had anything changed, furniture or things like that? Anything change?
20 A. No, no. They have old furniture. I believe that they had moved
21 it from Split
22 same furniture. The rooms are the same; the walls are the same. Nothing
23 has changed since they first moved in.
24 Q. All right. When you got back from your vacation you went to your
25 training, you said, right? This is handball training.
1 A. We arrived at the weekend. I took a day to rest. My then-coach
2 Pera Lazarevic, an Olympian, had the same system. He started
3 preparations on the 1st of September. Since the 1st of September was a
4 weekend, we started on Monday. There was a competition to be held soon,
5 and we started our preparations on the first Monday after the 1st of
7 Q. Okay. Did you tell Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Stanic that your coach's
8 name was Pera Lazarevic? Did you tell them that?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. And you told him that you started on the 1st of September, your
11 training? You told them that too?
12 A. The 1st of August.
13 Q. The 1st of August?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And they wrote that down?
16 A. I don't know. I suppose they did. I was not watching them take
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Just -- again, I think we were having just a little
20 trouble with the transcript and what he's saying and what the translation
21 is, but we'll look at the tape again and then come back to it at this
22 point, just so the Court knows.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. And among your friends, are you the only one that's involved in
25 this training?
1 A. No, Branko, Bare [phoen], and myself, we were in training
2 together. I started practicing handball in 1992, and later on in the
3 first grade of high school Branko asked me whether I could talk to my
4 coach to take him on. So in 1993 he started, but his handball career was
5 short-lived because in 1996 he was injured in a game. He had to undergo
6 a surgical procedure, and that's when he stopped training.
7 Q. So he went back to training with you in 1995, right?
8 A. Yes. We were still junior players at the time, and we were
9 supposed to join the senior team, and that's why we had to work much
10 harder than anybody else, and we had to be there on Day 1 every season.
11 Q. Okay. And he recalls that, you having spoken to him about it,
13 A. About training?
14 Q. Yeah, about when training started in 1995, in the summer of 1995.
15 A. Oh, he know it. Of course, he does. That was the common
16 practice in the team. Every year the championship ended in mid-June,
17 then there was a break, we had to come back in the beginning of August,
18 and then the season started.
19 Q. All right. Thank you very much for that.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no further questions at this time,
21 Mr. President.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. No re-examination, Mr. Ostojic?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Questions? Are you related to Zeljko Kerkez?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Doesn't ring a bell. I'm often
1 asked in Belgrade
2 ask me if I'm related to them, and my answer is always no. I don't know
3 these people, and I don't know the person that you asked me about.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. That brings an end to your testimony.
5 You are free to go. You will receive assistance from our staff. On
6 behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over,
7 and I also wish you a safe journey back home.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have a very brief housekeeping matter
12 that Mr. Thayer will address on scheduling?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We can do the documents next Monday. That's
14 the photos -- there are the photos, and practically that's it. You don't
15 have any other things apart from the photos, do you?
16 MR. OSTOJIC: I do not, Mr. President. 2DIC 213 would be the
17 only document.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Those are going to be -- no
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, there's no objection.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. --
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to be really quick because I'm advised we
24 can't stay a minute longer.
25 MR. THAYER: I understand there's another matter following us,
1 Mr. President. We are in receipt of the witness schedule for next week.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, I saw it.
3 MR. THAYER: Just given the -- some recent history, I just wanted
4 to -- for everybody's sake to find out what the actual schedule is going
5 to be. We had Mr. Subotic on the schedule, and Wagenaar at one point was
6 scheduled for prior to some of these other witnesses. So I wanted to
7 just find out if we can clarify if it's going to be Subotic --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You can find out with Mr. Ostojic and then let us
9 know, if Mr. Ostojic knows. I suppose you do.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of
12 September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.