1 Thursday, 18 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. All the accused are here.
11 Absent from the Defence teams I notice Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Lazarevic,
12 Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Krgovic, and Mr. Haynes.
13 Prosecution it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer who are present.
14 Witness is already in the courtroom. So I suppose we can proceed. Good
15 afternoon, to you, Mr. Nikolic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
18 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 WITNESS: MILISAV NIKOLIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Ms. Nikolic: [Continued]
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
23 Mr. Nikolic. Yesterday during your testimony we dealt with the
24 relationship between the brothers. However, I have one question left in
25 that area. Were you mobilised between 1992 and 1996 to the VRS?
1 A. No.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone
3 to her right.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, you need to either come nearer the
5 microphone or use another microphone, the interpreters are not hearing
6 you well.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I will
8 endeavour to do so.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it better, I'm asking the interpreters?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, I apologise to the
13 Q. In 1992 when the war broke out in Bosnia, what happened with
14 Drago Nikolic's family?
15 A. Drago was in Sarajevo
16 war broke out, he was in a barracks. He had already been mobilised. His
17 wife was in the military hospital. He managed to transfer his children
18 to Pale.
19 Q. Do you recall what was happening with the daughters of your
20 brother in April 1992 after he had transferred them to Pale?
21 A. I do. Drago called me on the 6th of April, 1992, in the morning,
22 to tell me that he transferred them to Pale, and that I should pick them
23 up to take them to my house. I asked a neighbour of mine to accompany me
24 to Pale.
25 In the meantime, Drago called our elder brother Dragan that the
1 children were to be picked up in Pale. Dragan did so and brought them to
2 Kravica where he handed them over to me. Then I took them to my place in
3 Novi Sad
4 Q. How old were they at the time?
5 A. Dragana was 13 and Vida 11.
6 Q. Dragana and Vida, did they spend a period of time in Novi Sad
7 with you and your family?
8 A. They stayed until the end of July that year. After having been
9 brought from Pale, I enrolled them in a school in their respective grades
10 which they completed in Novi Sad
11 Q. And that was in 1992?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. While Drago's children were with you, how did Dragana and Vida
14 take that situation being separated from the parents?
15 A. With difficulty. The younger girl, Vida, was crying a lot and
16 whenever she would get back home from school, the first question she'd
17 ask me was, Uncle, did daddy call? They suffered a lot and were very
18 worried about their parents.
19 Q. What about you and your wife, did you do your utmost in the
20 circumstances that prevailed?
21 A. We did everything trying to compensate for the fact that they
22 missed their parents. We did not make a difference between them and our
23 children. We even included them on school trips with the other children
24 from the school so that they would feel a part of that community.
25 Q. Between April and June 1992, when did Drago and his wife come to
1 see the children, and did you know of their fate during those couple of
3 A. We didn't hear anything about Drago until mid-June, for over two
4 months, when he appeared in Novi Sad
5 around mid-May. As I said, Drago followed in mid-June.
6 Q. Having left Sarajevo
7 Drago Nikolic was sent to?
8 A. Once he had left Sarajevo
9 back to Sekovici, that's where his next post was.
10 Q. Do you know when it was that he was transferred to the
11 Zvornik Brigade?
12 A. Yes. In January 1993.
13 Q. Concerning their family circumstances, I wanted to ask you what
14 was the relationship like between Drago and your wife, Ruza?
15 A. Their relationship was a fair one. They respected each other.
16 Drago held my wife in high esteem, and in the difficult -- the most
17 difficult times, he entrusted her with his children. He particularly
18 respected her for her good treatment of his children.
19 Q. Before he began his military studies, what was he like as a young
21 A. He was of a merry spirit, well liked in his circle of friends and
22 in the neighbourhood.
23 Q. Did he change once he had completed his military studies?
24 A. Yes, he grew more serious, an introvert. It wasn't like it used
25 to be before he went to the military school.
1 Q. Do you know what caused that change?
2 A. He often said that it was very difficult for him to be separated
3 from the family during the four years being in the boarding school. He
4 seldom visited home, only during national holidays. Their summer
5 vacation was far shorter than that of civilian students.
6 Q. I would like to change topics now. In the course of the war
7 between 1992 and 1995, did you go to Bosnia?
8 A. On average, I went there once a month. Since my three brothers
9 were there as well as my parents, I went there frequently.
10 Q. In July 1995, were you in Bosnia
11 A. In July 1995 I did go, in early July, to visit my brothers and
12 parents, and there was something that I had to do there. I returned on
13 the 9th of July since by that time the fighting around Srebrenica had
14 started and I had my wife and children with me. Dragan also suggested
15 that I should return and we went back to Novi Sad.
16 Q. Did you see Drago Nikolic before going home that weekend?
17 A. Yes. While we were on our way back, we dropped by his barracks.
18 Q. When you were going to the barracks to see your own brother, what
19 was the procedure like for you to be admitted inside the barracks where
20 the Zvornik Brigade was quartered?
21 A. At the reception desk there were military policeman, they asked
22 for my ID, and then -- well, sometimes one of them would take us up to
23 Drago's office or alternatively they would call him and then he would
24 come down to see us.
25 Q. Since you were informed that the fighting had begun, once you
1 returned to Novi Sad
2 happening with your brothers and with your brother in the
3 Zvornik Brigade?
4 A. Yes. I frequently called, inquiring about Drago and even more
5 about Boro, because a few days later, I think it was the 14th of July,
6 from Boro's wife's father I learned that Boro was at Odrc that day,
7 searching the terrain there.
8 Q. Do you recall an event that would be important for your family
9 that may have taken place in July 1995?
10 A. I do. It was when our cousin Dusan Nikolic, on our uncle's side,
11 was killed.
12 Q. How did you learn of Dusan Nikolic being killed?
13 A. I called Drago's office to ask him if he knew where Boro was.
14 Since he didn't respond, I called his house thinking that maybe he was at
15 home for lunch. He picked up the phone there and told me that he didn't
16 know where Boro was, but that he would let me know once he is back in the
18 Q. Did he?
19 A. He called in the afternoon. He was quite upset and said that
20 Dusko had been killed. I asked him if he knew where Boro was, and he
21 said he didn't.
22 Q. Can you recall what date that was?
23 A. Certainly. The 16th of July, the day when Dusko Nikolic was
25 Q. Did you at some point go to Zvornik in July 1995 after having
1 learned this?
2 A. When Drago told me about that, in the next half hour with a
3 neighbour of mine, I set off towards Zvornik since I had no vehicle of
4 mine. Once in Zvornik, I located my brother Borislav at the bridge in
5 Karakaj. After that we went together to his home. Later on we went to
6 Dusko's sister's apartment. Her name is Mara Milosevic. The family
7 assembled there. We wanted to express our condolences. I found Drago
8 there. There were many other family members there. They were making
9 arrangements for the funeral that was to take place the next day. Drago
10 took over the organisation of the event.
11 Q. Did you attend Dusan Nikolic's funeral?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When was this funeral, if you recall?
14 A. Well, the cortege headed out of Zvornik around noon and I think
15 the funeral itself may have taken place at around 3 p.m.
16 Q. Now I would like to ask you this: You've described the close
17 relations that you had with Drago and the other brothers. Did Drago tell
18 you about his service in the army, his job in Sarajevo and later on in
19 Zvornik and Sekovici?
20 A. Well, I tried to broach this subject several times with him, in
21 particular when I was younger, but he always refused to discuss it. He
22 would always tell me that there was no reason for me to know anything
23 because this was all military secret.
24 Q. Did you know any of Drago's colleagues, officers that he worked
25 or socialized with in Sarajevo
1 his relations with those people?
2 A. Well, I knew quite a few people in Sarajevo because I went there
3 to visit him quite often. I know some of them by name, Lizdek, Matic,
4 Milidrag. I knew quite a few of them by sight and, as far as I was able
5 to observe, Drago was on good terms with all of them. They socialised,
6 some of them would even come to our family home in Kravica. And when his
7 child died all of them came to the funeral, regardless of their religion.
8 All of those colleagues that I knew and those colleagues that I didn't
10 Q. Could you please repeat the name, you said Matic and then
11 Milidrag but it was wrongly recorded in the transcript?
12 A. Yes, Matic, Marinko, and Milidrag. Milidrag is the name.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know if Drago was on good terms with his
14 colleagues in Zvornik while he worked there?
15 A. Well, I didn't know as a many of his colleagues from Zvornik. I
16 knew them mostly from his stories. When I came to visit him I would see
17 some of them in passing, but from what I heard from him and from what I
18 heard from our brother Boro, he was on relatively good terms with all of
20 Q. Did he have any problems with any of those colleagues?
21 A. Well, after he retired, he did mention at one point, he recounted
22 that Obrenovic had contacted him -- I don't know what his rank was at the
23 time -- insisting to see him. And when they did meet, he told Drago that
24 he would drag Drago and the others into the pits. I don't know who the
25 others were.
1 Q. Did Drago tell you why?
2 A. Well, just the bare bones. He said that this man suspected Drago
3 and others, other colleagues of having conspired against him. He didn't
4 tell me any specifics, but at any rate, he suspected Drago of conspiring
5 against him together with some other colleagues and that's why he
6 threatened to do this.
7 Q. When was the first time that you heard that your brother had been
8 indicted before the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague
9 A. In the fall of 2002.
10 Q. Where did Drago and his family live at that time?
11 A. In their home in Banja Koviljaca, in their house.
12 Q. Did you contact him at that time after the indictment was issued
13 and were there any changes in his lifestyle?
14 A. Well, yes, I contacted -- I was in contact with Drago, I went to
15 visit him and he would come to Novi Sad often to work. I found him
16 different jobs then he would go back. So he continued his life as usual.
17 Q. Do you know whether Drago's closest family had any problems after
18 the indictment was issued?
19 A. I know that his wife and his daughter, his younger daughter were
20 called -- were summoned to come to the police station in Zvornik.
21 Q. Were you ever summoned to come to the police station or did
22 anyone come to ask questions about Drago or questioned you and your
24 A. No. Nobody ever contacted me or asked me any questions. I
25 continued to visit my parents quite frequently. I travelled to Bosnia
1 and when my ID was checked at the border, nobody asked me any questions.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have to go back to an error in
3 the transcript, that's page 8 line 21. My colleague has just pointed
4 this out to me. At the very end of line 21 instead of the witness
5 actually said he told Drago, not me. But I can explain that by asking
6 some additional questions if you want me to.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think it's clear enough. I don't think
8 you need to, Ms. Nikolic.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Did you ever discuss this indictment and the events with your
11 brother, the events related to the indictment?
12 A. Well, we discussed it quite often in fact. He found it hard to
13 bear. He would tell me that the things that are written in the
14 indictment are not true.
15 Q. So from October 2002 until March 2005, did you ever talk to Drago
16 about his surrender to the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague
17 after this indictment was issued in 2002?
18 A. Well, I did talk to him about that a couple of times.
19 Q. What did he tell you?
20 A. Well, there was this campaign throughout the country in the
21 media, on TV, in the press, that people should not surrender and he
22 always used to say that officers higher in rank than he was had not
23 surrendered yet. And he was also concerned about his family; his wife is
24 quite ill. And at that time his children didn't hold steady jobs, so he
25 was not ready to surrender yet.
1 Q. What was your advice to him?
2 A. Well, I said that he had to make this decision himself, but
3 whatever he decided, I would be there -- I would support him, I would be
4 at his side.
5 Q. Did Drago decide to surrender to the ICTY at one point? What do
6 you know about that?
7 A. He called me in March 2005, early March, and he told me that he
8 had to discuss something with me. He came to my place on the 12th of
9 March and he said that he had decided to surrender, that he could no
10 longer bear the pressure on his family. And he also saw that others were
11 beginning to surrender. He wanted me to get in touch with somebody in
12 the Serbian government to effect his surrender.
13 Q. Did you help him?
14 A. Yes. On the 12th, I got in touch with some people in the
15 government and we agreed that we should come on the 14th, that they would
16 see us on the 14th. I, my wife and Drago went to Belgrade. We parked
17 our car close to the Serbian government building. We went -- I went to
18 the gate and some people came out and Drago accompanied them into the
19 government building to negotiate his surrender.
20 After a while they left, they came out and they said that they
21 had agreed that he would leave for The Hague on the 17th.
22 Q. On the 17th of March?
23 A. Yes, on the 17th of March.
24 Q. Mr. Nikolic, you described your family, the relationship between
25 the brothers and in general the family relations. Could you tell us
1 throughout these years, did Drago ever show any signs of ethnic or
2 religious intolerance towards any family members or friends?
3 A. Drago never evinced any ethnic or religious intolerance. He was
4 a Yugoslav, that was his orientation. He got on well with all people of
5 all religions and ethnic backgrounds and his relationship with my wife is
6 a good example of that. She is Catholic and also Drago's relationship
7 with her parents. He often went to see them when he came to visit me.
8 He would call them and to wish them happy for their feasts, religious
9 feasts on so on and to this day he always asks me about how my wife is
10 and how her parents are.
11 Q. In the end, Mr. Nikolic, I would like to ask you to answer just
12 one more question. How would you describe your brother Drago's character
13 and his relations with people in the community where the two of you grew
14 up together?
15 A. Well, my brother Drago was always a hard working man. He was
16 well liked in his family but also in our broader community. He always
17 wanted to assist everyone and he did, and people had a great deal of
18 respect for that. And they showed their respect in particular now when
19 the Trial Chamber allowed my brother to come to my father's wake, a
20 40-day wake. Lots of neighbours, lots of friends, family came in order
21 to express their condolences to the family, but primarily to Drago
22 because of his father's death and to pay their respects to him.
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Nikolic.
24 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have no question for the witness, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.
3 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, no questions.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Gosnell.
5 MR. GOSNELL: No questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, merci. Mr. Josse.
9 MR. JOSSE: Certainly not, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa.
11 MR. SARAPA: No questions, thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you and
14 Your Honours. Good afternoon, everyone.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
16 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. My name is Nelson Thayer. I'll be asking you some questions on
19 behalf of the Prosecution.
20 Now, you mentioned yesterday sir, and again today, that you were
21 not mobilised into the VRS during the war. Can you tell the
22 Trial Chamber how you performed your military service during the war,
24 A. I did not perform any military service. I went to Bosnia
25 civilian. I'm a citizen of Serbia
1 there to visit.
2 Q. And during the war, did you serve in the military of the
3 Former Republic
4 A. At the time I did not serve in the military in the FRY either.
5 Q. And did you have some work obligation or other reason why you did
6 not serve in the military during that period of time?
7 A. Well, I worked in Novi Sad
8 was not work obligation. I was paid for it. And I did my military
9 service in 1983 and 1984.
10 Q. And your eldest brother Dragan, how did he perform his military
11 service during the war, sir?
12 A. My brother Dragan was mobilised at the beginning of the war.
13 Q. And in what unit did he serve?
14 A. Dragan was mobilised into the reserve force of the police, that
15 was before the war. And when the war started, he was in a unit in
16 Kravica where he remained until March 1993 when he lost his leg, and then
17 he was demobilised.
18 Q. Now, if I've done my math right, sir, your brother Dragan is the
19 eldest, followed by your brother Drago, followed by yourself, and then
20 followed by your late brother Borislav who was the youngest; is that
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And I think you mentioned yesterday that Borislav had a degree in
24 mining. Did he attend the military academy?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did he have any police or law enforcement training, sir?
2 A. Well, my brother Borislav did his national service in 1984 and
3 into 1985, and I don't recall what branch of service he was in. I know
4 that he was in Nis
5 Q. Is it fair to say, sir, that to your knowledge he didn't have,
6 prior to the outbreak of the war in Bosnia
7 enforcement training?
8 A. I don't know what training he underwent in the military, but I
9 don't think that he underwent any other kind of training outside of the
11 Q. Did your brother Drago ever help your youngest brother Borislav
12 at all or use any connections he may have had to help Borislav become a
13 member of the Zvornik Brigade Military Police Company as opposed to
14 remaining a foot soldier or conscript on the frontlines?
15 A. Well, I don't know if it helped or not, but I do know that I had
16 quarrels with Drago several times because I criticized him for not
17 preventing Borislav going to various frontlines where the fighting was
18 quite fierce. I do know that.
19 Q. Well, are you aware of any times when or occasions when your
20 brother Drago tried or succeeded in intervening on Borislav's behalf to
21 keep him out of harm's way?
22 A. Well, in my previous answer I said that Drago went to the
23 frontlines where there was fighting, and that I criticized Drago for
25 Q. My question, sir, was: Did your brother Drago ever attempt to
1 intervene, did he ever try or succeed in intervening on Borislav's behalf
2 to keep him out of harm's way during the war?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic?
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is asked and
5 answered twice.
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I don't think it has been answered.
7 He simply said that they had disagreements and I'm asking a specific
8 question, did he try and did he ever succeed.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed with your answer. Let's proceed with
10 your answer.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. He never helped him in
12 any way or at least I don't know about that.
13 MR. THAYER:
14 Q. Now, sir, you are certainly aware that in July 1995 hundreds and
15 hundreds of Muslim men and boys from Srebrenica were detained at the
16 Grbavci School
17 A. I don't know anything about that.
18 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you've never heard that that
20 A. No, that's not what I'm saying. There were all kinds of reports
21 in the media, on TV, in the press. I'm just saying that I personally
22 have no knowledge of that.
23 Q. Now, sir, we have information that, and this is from members of
24 the Zvornik Brigade Military Police Company, that your brothers Drago and
25 Borislav were both at that school in Orahovac on that day that the
1 executions occurred?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Do you speak English? Do you
3 understand English, Mr. Nikolic?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Not even a little bit?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not even a little bit.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can you remove your headphones, please.
8 Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, [In English] Sorry, I
10 can address you only in English. I will try to do my best, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
12 MS. NIKOLIC: I think, Your Honour, that this witness very
13 clearly said that he was not mobilised, that he was not the citizen of
14 Bosnia Herzegovina, that he was not in the war in Bosnia, that he is not
15 living in Bosnia
16 what he heard, he heard from media. [Interpretation] I think this
17 question is inappropriate [In English] Sorry, because I think that the
18 question is completely inappropriate because that witness is --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, I got your point -- we got your point.
20 Mr. Thayer, do you wish to respond?
21 MR. THAYER: Ever so briefly, Mr. President. We've heard from
22 this witness that he discussed the indictment with Mr. Nikolic, that he
23 was in touch with Mr. Nikolic following the attack on the Srebrenica
24 enclave, that he has very specific recollection of certain dates in
25 mid-July 1995. And I think I'm perfectly entitled to explore these
1 issues and specific issues surrounding what happened in Orahovac to test
2 this witness's memory and his credibility.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic, and that's the end of it. In
4 English, please.
5 MS. NIKOLIC: Yes, Your Honour. Orahovac was never mentioned in
6 my direct examination. An indictment meaning like the counts or text or
7 charges were never part of my direct examination.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we come to the conclusion that your objection
11 cannot be sustained, Ms. Nikolic, because not having been part of the war
12 himself or part of the forces, VRS, not having firsthand information of
13 what happened in Orahovac until he came to know through the media perhaps
14 has got nothing to do with other information, the other information that
15 is being solicited or he is being asked upon now by Mr. Thayer.
16 So, Mr. Nikolic. You had started your question, you did not
17 conclude it, in my opinion. I may be wrong. Go to page 16, lines 20 to
18 23, Mr. Thayer, please.
19 MR. THAYER: We are getting there, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
21 MR. THAYER: I'll just pick up right from there, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
23 MR. THAYER:
24 Q. Sir, we have information from two military policemen from the
25 Zvornik Brigade Military Police Company, Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic,
1 that on the day that the executions at Orahovac occurred, your brother
2 Drago's driver arrived at the school after the prisoners had all been
3 placed inside the gym, summoned your youngest brother Borislav to the car
4 and drove him away. Mr. Bogdanovic was very specific about that
5 recollection and Mr. Jovic said the following about that. He said that:
6 "This was a sufficient signal that even before anything had happened, we
7 should allow ourselves, even if that included taking some risks, because
8 of potential later responsibility, that we should just run away from the
9 spot." And they did indeed flee according to their statements to us.
10 Now, you testified that as brothers you helped each other out,
11 growing up, throughout your entire lives. Did either of your brothers
12 Drago or Borislav tell you about Drago sending his driver to the Orahovac
13 school to take Borislav out of that place?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did your brother Drago ever tell you he was there at the school
16 on the 13th or 14th of July?
17 A. Sir, I have already stated that neither in peacetime nor in
18 wartime he ever shared any such things with me. He never talked about
19 that to me and I have no answer to your question.
20 Q. Well, I understand that on occasions when you asked him about
21 what his duties were and what his activities were, he replied that it was
22 a military secret, sir. But I'm talking about what I don't think can be
23 denied was a very, very widely reported massacre. And you've told us
24 that you discussed the indictment with your brother Drago, and that he
25 said that the things that were included in it weren't true. So I'm going
1 to ask you some questions about some of these events, sir, and see
2 whether you talked about some of these specific things.
3 Did he ever tell you that he was angry about what happened at
4 Orahovac, sir?
5 A. I have never read the indictment. I have never discussed the
6 details of the indictment with him. He has never mentioned any of those
8 Q. Did you ever hear the story about a little Muslim boy who was
9 wounded during the mass execution at Orahovac and take to the Zvornik
10 hospital? Surely your brother would have told you how outraged he was
11 about that, sir?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Avoid putting questions this way, Mr. Thayer,
13 please. The first part of your question would have sufficed.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were different stories in the
15 media, in the press, on TV. I don't remember that particular story about
16 that boy. In any case, I did not hear about it from Drago. For years
17 people have been writing about such things. I may have read something of
18 the sort along the way, but I don't know about that.
19 MR. THAYER:
20 Q. Sir, will you allow that the Drago Nikolic who you know when he
21 is with your family and behaved in a certain way when he was with your
22 family may have behaved differently while he was performing his duties in
23 the army during the war?
24 A. I'm not very clear about the thrust of your question. I know my
25 brother is a fair, honest person --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can move to the next question. He
2 wasn't with him when he was at work both before, during and after the
3 war. I mean, so ...
4 MR. THAYER:
5 Q. My last question for you, sir, is at any time before, during or,
6 well, certainly after the war, did your brother express to you any
7 sorrow, any sympathy, any remorse for the thousands and thousands of men
8 and boys from Srebrenica who were executed in his area of responsibility?
9 A. As I have said, we have never discussed such matters. I can't
10 tell you whether he demonstrated anything of the sort when we didn't
11 discuss it.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, do you have re-examination?
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nikolic, your testimony ends here. You will
16 receive assistance from our staff to facilitate your return back home.
17 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over
18 to give evidence and on behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe journey
19 back home.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, exhibits? You used a couple in the
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think the list
24 was distributed and it has two documents on it, the two we mentioned.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection, Mr. Thayer?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: None, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it the other Defence teams are not
3 interested so the two documents are admitted. You don't have any
4 document, Mr. Thayer, do you?
5 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let's move to the next witness.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, madam.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm the Presiding Judge. I wish to welcome you. I
11 know this is not a nice occasion for you, but the Defence team of your
12 father has summoned you to give evidence and accordingly before you start
13 your testimony you are required to make a solemn declaration to the
14 effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the
15 whole truth. Madam Usher who is standing next to you is going to give
16 you the text. Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn
17 commitment with us.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: VIDA VASIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. Make yourself comfortable,
24 Ms. Nikolic.
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Examination by Ms. Nikolic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Vasic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Before we introduce ourselves, I would kindly ask you that you
5 speak up so that the interpreters will be able to hear when you speak,
6 and to pause between questions and answers so that there will be no
7 overlaps and to have a clear transcript.
8 A. Very well.
9 Q. I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Ms. Nikolic, and I
10 appear on behalf of your father, Drago Nikolic.
11 Can you tell us your first and last name and your maiden name.
12 A. My name is Vida Vasic. Maiden name Nikolic.
13 Q. When and where were you born?
14 A. I was born on the 3rd of October, 1980, in Sarajevo.
15 Q. You are Drago Nikolic's daughter, aren't you?
16 A. Yes, Drago Nikolic is my father.
17 Q. What is your current occupation?
18 A. I am a salesperson.
19 Q. What is your educational background, what degrees do you hold?
20 A. I have a junior college diploma as -- what we call it is an
21 economics technician in the field of economic affairs.
22 Q. Do you remember having given a statement on the 23rd of April,
23 2008, to Mr. Drago Nikolic's Defence team?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Did you have occasion to revisit your statement in the few days
1 prior to your testimony here?
2 A. Yes, I reread it.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to Rule 92
4 ter I would like to read out this witness's statement, summary statement.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead.
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] The witness lives in Mali Zvornik,
8 they also had a younger brother Dragisa, who died in 1990 as a result of
9 serious illness when he was eight years old.
10 The witness remembers that after the war broke out in Sarajevo
11 April 1992, Drago Nikolic took her and her sister to Pale where they
12 spent three days. Afterwards, the brother of Drago Nikolic arrived and
13 took them to Novi Sad
14 Milena Nikolic remained in Sarajevo
15 The witness and her sister stayed in Novi Sad for two to three
16 months where they completed that school year. Mother Milena joined them
17 a month later. After that, they saw Drago Nikolic again in June 1992.
18 In the summer of 1992, they moved to Sekovici and then to Zvornik
19 where they stayed until the end of the war. In July 1995 they lived in
20 Zvornik. The witness remembers the 16th of July, 1995, when their uncle
21 Dusan Nikolic was killed. The witness remembers that day since besides
22 her uncle being killed, her mother Milena's birthday is on that day too.
23 At the time of family birthdays and get-togethers, they always tried to
24 be together as a family.
25 The witness remembers that on that day Drago Nikolic came home to
1 attend a family lunch since it was his [as interpreted] mother's
2 birthday. The witness does not remember the exact time but, according to
3 the best of her recollection, she thinks that Drago stayed in the house
4 until mid-afternoon.
5 On the 16th of July, 1995, they were informed at home that
6 Dusan Nikolic was killed. The whole family was shaken since
7 Drago Nikolic and Dusan were very close. The witness remembers that it
8 was in the afternoon when Mara Milosevic, Dusan Nikolic's sister, called
9 and asked to speak to Drago Nikolic. Mara called because she wanted to
10 know about Dusan, however, Drago Nikolic had already left the house. The
11 witness had already known that Dusan Nikolic had been killed by that time
12 but neither she nor her mother wanted to tell that to Mara.
13 The witness remembers that her father played a significant role
14 during the funeral and that he left the next day after Dusan had been
16 This concludes my reading of the summary according to Rule 92
17 ter, and I have a few questions for you.
18 JUDGE PROST: Ms. Nikolic, if I just interrupt you for a moment.
19 If you look at the transcript at page 24, line 22, it says: "To attend a
20 family lunch since it was his mother's birthday," that's different from
21 what is in the same where she indicates it was her mother's birthday. So
22 I think that needs to be clarified. Thank you.
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
24 repeat my question for the sake of the transcript. It was indeed her
1 Q. Was that your mother's birthday?
2 A. Yes, my mother's birthday.
3 Q. Thank you. The summary of statement I read out, does it reflect
4 truly and accurately the statement you gave to our Defence team?
5 A. Yes, it does.
6 Q. Are the facts you mentioned in your statement true and accurate?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do they truly reflect the facts that you would repeat before this
9 Tribunal if asked the same questions today?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this point, Your Honour, I seek
12 to tender Vida Vasic's statement.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. We'll come to that later.
14 I would take it there's no objection? So you can assume that it is
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It is
17 3D474. I have only a few questions for Mrs. Vasic, but since there are
18 only a couple of minutes left before the break, this may be a good time
19 to take that break.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Nikolic, we'll have a 25-minute break.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Mrs. Vasic, you spent about two months in the house of your uncle
1 and aunt. Do you remember when your parents joined you in Novi Sad
3 A. Yes, I do remember. My mother, Milena, joined us first and then
4 a month later -- that was about a month after we left, and my father
5 joined us about two months later.
6 Q. Did you have any news from your parents in the intervening
8 A. No, I didn't have any news of my parents. They remained in
10 Q. And how did you bear those days when you were separated from your
12 A. Well, this was a difficult period for me since my sister and I
13 were very close and devoted to our parents. I went to school and
14 although the school recognised our previous grades, I would always come
15 home from school every day and I would ask my Uncle Milisav if there had
16 been any news and if my parents had left Sarajevo.
17 Q. Mrs. Vasic, how would you describe the relations in your family
18 and Drago Nikolic as your father?
19 A. I am very proud of the fact that Drago Nikolic is my father. I'm
20 very proud of all the love and all the support that he has given me. He
21 has been a wonderful father. He never raised his voice in our house,
22 neither at me or at my sister. We've always been able to deal with
23 everything by talking about it. We spent a lot of time talking to each
24 other. All his free time he devoted to us. He took care of us. He took
25 care of our education.
1 Although me and my sister Dragana were A students, whenever there
2 was any need to help us with our school work, he would always be there
3 for us. He always helped us. He attended all parent/teacher
4 conferences. He really took our education to heart, and he spent all his
5 free time with us. He took us out for walks.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, of
9 Q. Mrs. Vasic, if you find this difficult, we can stop now.
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any questions for this
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. I take it I don't need to
13 make the roll call, I would imagine no one is interested except maybe
14 Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And Mrs. Vasic, I
16 don't have any questions for you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and neither have we, I suppose, which
18 means, Mrs. Vasic, that your testimony comes to an end here. On behalf
19 of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having been kind enough to
20 come over and give testimony in this case. And on behalf of everyone
21 present here, I wish you a safe journey back home.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it there are no exhibits?
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Except for the statement, of course, which I
2 already said is --
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, but it's already been
4 admitted, if I understand it correctly.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. All right. Your next witness is
6 Milosevic, isn't it? Dragan Milosevic?
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is also a 92 ter witness, isn't he?
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, to you, Mr. Milosevic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
14 start giving evidence as a Defence witness for Drago Nikolic. Before you
15 do so, you are required by our rules to make a solemn declaration that in
16 the course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth. Text is
17 being handed to you now, please read it out aloud and that will be your
18 solemn undertaking with us.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Ms. Nikolic.
22 WITNESS: DRAGAN MILOSEVIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Examination by Ms. Nikolic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Milosevic.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. We've met before?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But could you please state your full name for the record.
6 A. My name is Dragan Milosevic.
7 Q. When were you born and where?
8 A. I was born on the 10th of December, 1951, in the village of
9 Jalovik, Vladimirci municipality in Serbia.
10 Q. What degrees do you hold and what is your current occupation?
11 A. I completed the secondary teachers school in Sabac and I
12 currently in the elementary school in Zvornik as a teacher.
13 Q. During the war in Bosnia
14 mobilised into the units of the Republika Srpska Army, when and for how
15 long if you recall?
16 A. Well, I do recall. I was mobilised several times. The overall
17 duration was about five months. I was mobilised right at the beginning,
18 on the 20th of May, and that was until the 3rd of August, 1992. And then
19 I was again mobilised twice in 1995, from the 27th of March until the
20 29th of April, and then again from the 15th of July until the end of
21 August, the 30th of August, 1995.
22 Q. Just for the record, one question, what is your current
23 occupation, could you explain that?
24 A. I teach in the elementary school Sveti Sava in Zvornik.
25 Q. When were you demobilised?
1 A. I was demobilised on the 30th of August, 1995.
2 Q. Do you remember that you gave a statement to Drago Nikolic's
3 Defence team on the 23rd of April, 2008?
4 A. Yes, I do remember. I did give a statement.
5 Q. Did you have an occasion to read your statement before you signed
6 it and again, in the couple of days before you took the stand?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. I did have an opportunity to read it and I
8 signed it.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] In accordance with the Rule 92 ter,
10 I will now, Your Honours, read a brief summary of this statement.
11 The witness lives in Zvornik and he is a teacher at the
12 elementary school in Zvornik. The witness's wife is Mara Milosevic who
13 is the sister of the late Dusan Nikolic and a cousin of Drago Nikolic.
14 During the war, the witness had the work obligation as school teacher in
15 the elementary school Sveti Sava in Zvornik.
16 He was mobilised to the reserve battalion of the Zvornik Brigade
17 and he remembers that he spent the night between the 15th and the 16th of
18 July, 1995, in the Standard barracks. On the 16th of July, 1995, early
19 in the afternoon, the witness was at the cemetery in Zvornik as a member
20 of the honour guard firing blanks for a soldier who had been killed, and
21 then there he learned from Drago Gajic that his relative Dusan Nikolic
22 had been killed.
23 The witness remembers that between 3 and 4 p.m. he went to the
24 command in Standard where he found Drago Nikolic who was deeply upset.
25 Dusan and Drago were inseparable from their childhood until Dusan's
1 death. The witness went, together with Drago Nikolic and Mico Petkovic,
2 to tell his wife Mara about this tragic event. On the 16th of July,
3 1995, starting from the afternoon all the way until the 17th of July,
4 1995, late in the evening, Drago Nikolic was with them at all times and
5 he handled the complete funeral organisation of the late Dusan Nikolic
6 who was buried in the Kravica cemetery on the 17th of July, 1995
7 Q. This concludes my 92 ter summary of your statement. Now, I would
8 like to ask you whether what I have just read reflects the statement that
9 you gave to the Defence team?
10 A. Yes, in full.
11 Q. The facts contained in the statement, are they true and accurate?
12 A. They are completely true.
13 Q. And do they reflect accurately your -- what you would say in
14 front of this Trial Chamber if you were asked to testify about those
16 A. Yes, fully.
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this time I would like that the
18 witness statement provided this witness, 3D475, be admitted into
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection? No objection from anyone. It is
21 admitted, Ms. Nikolic. Please proceed.
22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Milosevic, now I would like to ask you just a couple of
24 questions. How long have you known Drago Nikolic?
25 A. Well, from the time when I came to my job in Kravica, that's in
1 1973 [Realtime transcript read in error "1993"] in the Petar Kocic
2 elementary school, I lived in the immediate vicinity of Drago Nikolic's
3 family house, so I've known him since 1973 when he was my student.
4 Q. And when did you get to know him better?
5 A. Well, I got to know Drago better in 1977 when I married his
6 relative Mara Nikolic, and we socialised to a greater extent from 1993
7 when he came to Zvornik.
8 Q. I would just like to correct for the record that page 32, line
9 18, could you please repeat the year, the first time that you heard about
10 Drago Nikolic when you got the job in Kravica?
11 A. It was 1973.
12 Q. Not 1993, then?
13 A. No, 1973.
14 Q. Since you've known Drago Nikolic and his family for over 30 years
15 based on your answers, could you please describe to us what kind of a
16 person Drago Nikolic was as a man? What would you say about his family
17 and his character?
18 A. Well, I've known Drago Nikolic since his early youth, since he
19 was 16. I could tell you a lot of things about him, but as a member of
20 his wider family, I can tell you that he was a respected -- well
21 respected. Even when he was young, when he was a student, his family
22 respected him and he was always ready to assist anyone in any situation,
23 anyone in his closer or broader family.
24 There was a tragedy in his family and it affected him deeply, he
25 lost his son. And after that, his hair went completely white. It was
1 really a striking thing that happened for all of us. I was there with
2 them. And in 1993, since that time, he socialised -- socialised with us
3 with our family because the late Dusan lived with us in our apartment.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Milosevic. Thank
5 you, Your Honours. I don't have any further questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Any one of the Defence teams interested in
7 cross-examining this witness. None. Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: A few, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
11 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Peter McCloskey, I represent the
12 Prosecution in this case.
13 Can you tell me where you were living in July 1995?
14 A. In July 1995 I lived in Zvornik, in Brace Jugovica Street B7,
15 apartment number 15, and that's where I reside nowadays as well.
16 Q. Did you have family living in the Kravica area in July 1995?
17 A. In July 1995, in Kravica, my wife's brothers lived there as well
18 as her uncles. That's it.
19 Q. All right. Let me just clarify a little something in your
20 statement. You say you were in that honour guard on the 16th of July at
21 the cemetery in Zvornik for a soldier Rajko Smiljanic -- sorry about the
22 pronunciation. So were you able to confirm those dates for this
24 A. Yes, I remember that vividly. I was mobilised late in the
25 afternoon on the 15th. There was a storm in Zvornik. After that, I was
1 a member of the battalion in charge of the honourary guard at the Karakaj
2 cemetery, because at that time there were supposed to be two funerals. I
3 remember well Rajko Smiljanic since he was a manager's son. I knew the
4 manager, having worked in the place where he used to work, and I remember
5 that situation well.
6 Q. So you are sure that the ceremony was on the 16th of July?
7 A. I'm completely certain of it.
8 Q. Okay. And your statement says that immediately after that,
9 meaning I think the ceremony, between 3 and 4 p.m. you say: "I went to
10 the command in Standard and there I found Drago Nikolic." And so when
11 you say that in your report, you mean immediately after the ceremony at
12 the cemetery, you went to the Standard barracks; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And why did you go to the barracks at Standard?
15 A. After the blanks were fired for Rajko Smiljanic, we talked to his
16 father, waiting for the other funeral procession. I don't remember whose
17 funeral it was exactly. In the meantime, a soldier arrived who was with
18 the Zvornik command and told me the tragic news of Dusan Nikolic being
19 killed. I was also allowed to leave and told that someone else would
20 take over. I was told to report at Standard, so that the news of Dusan's
21 tragic death could be conveyed to the rest of the family.
22 Q. So do I understand you were allowed to go to Standard in order to
23 tell Drago Nikolic about the tragic news?
24 A. No. I was told to go to Standard and at Standard I came across
25 Drago Nikolic who by that time had already known about the situation, and
1 together with him and Milos Petkovic, aka Mica, I went to Zvornik to tell
2 the news to my wife, his sister and his wife Dusica.
3 Q. Do you know how long Drago Nikolic had known of the news about
4 this tragedy before you had actually seen him?
5 A. I didn't know then and I don't know now at what point he learned
6 of that. I only knew that there were conflicts at Baljkovica and there
7 were some people killed at the moment I left for the cemetery. As for
8 Drago, I have no idea when he learned of the news.
9 Q. And about what time did you see Drago at the Standard barracks?
10 A. It is difficult to know what time it was exactly, but I think
11 between 3 and 4 in the afternoon, give or take half an hour. It's very
12 difficult to pinpoint it exactly 13 years later, but it was sometime in
13 the afternoon, maybe after 4 o'clock
14 Q. And what part of the Standard barracks did you see him in?
15 A. At the entrance. Well, how should I explain it? As I was
16 leaving the cemetery, since it is relatively close, when I arrived there,
17 Mica Petkovic and Drago were already there, and we left together. So
18 just close to the reception office at the gate.
19 Q. Outside the building or inside the building?
20 A. Outside the building.
21 Q. And do you remember if Drago Nikolic was in uniform?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He was in uniform?
24 A. Yes, he was.
25 Q. And where did Drago Nikolic live at that time?
1 A. I think at the time he lived in Zvornik. I don't know what the
2 address was. I think it is an apartment block called Z14 or 15. That's
3 the numbers that the buildings bear. In any case, it is in Zvornik.
4 Q. Just to give us an idea, normal traffic driving from the Standard
5 barracks to the apartment block, how long would it take? Just roughly.
6 A. Do you mean on foot or by car?
7 Q. Well, let's start with car.
8 A. Up to five minutes, not more.
9 Q. Okay. Well, I think that will be close enough. And do you know,
10 was there a telephone in Drago Nikolic's house at that time?
11 A. I think there was.
12 Q. And did Drago Nikolic have a Motorola with him some of the times
13 when you would see him?
14 A. I didn't notice that. I don't remember whether he had it.
15 Q. Okay. And it's the next day, the 17th, that you went to the
16 funeral in Kravica; right?
17 A. Yes. On the 15th in the evening, the family got together in my
18 apartment because Dusan was living with us for awhile and then later he
19 was given an apartment in Zvornik. In the afternoon, Dusan was taken
20 from the morgue to his new apartment which was just above the pharmacy.
21 The funeral took place in the afternoon on the 16th in Kravica. I know
22 that the procession left the apartment around noon in the direction of
23 Kravica and we couldn't go via Konjevic Polje. We had to take another
24 route via Zelinje, Polonje [phoen] towards Bratunac and then on to
25 Kravica, which was the late birth place of the late Dusan.
1 Q. Let me see if I can help you clarify some of the dates.
2 Sometimes we have translation errors, sometimes you may have mixed up the
3 dates. I'll let you sort that out.
4 A. I apologise. The 16th in the evening is what I was talking
5 about. I was mobilised on the 15th. On the 16th, I stood the honour
6 guard and learned of Dusan's death. On the 16th, the family got
7 together, and the 17th is when the funeral was in Kravica. Thank you for
8 having corrected me. I did mix up the dates.
9 Q. About what time did you leave from Zvornik to go to the funeral
10 on the 17th?
11 A. The procession set out from Zvornik, as far as I can remember,
12 around noon
13 time it set out, following the route I described, via Drinjaca, Zeljine,
14 Polom to Bratunac, and then to the village cemetery in
15 Bacacica [phoen] -- outside Kravica where the late Dusan Nikolic was
17 Q. That route you said you took, was that more of a gravel type road
18 closer to the Drina
19 Konjevic Polje?
20 A. Yes, exactly. That road was a dirt road from Zeljine to
21 Bratunac. It was a gravel road and indeed we did not go by
22 Konjevic Polje.
23 Q. What time roughly did you, yourself, come back from the funeral
24 in Kravica?
25 A. Since I was a member of the R Battalion, I returned late in the
1 evening to Zvornik. The next day I reported to my unit. I came back to
2 Zvornik on 17th in the evening. My wife and some of the family remained
3 with their brothers in Bratunac since one of the brothers of the late
4 Dusan at the time ran a bar in Bratunac where the religious ceremony took
5 place after Dusan had been buried.
6 Q. So what time did the funeral end in Kravica on the 17th? And the
7 ceremonies related to it?
8 A. Well, since the religious ceremony was in the church in Bratunac,
9 the procession went in the direction of Kravica to Dusan's native
10 village. I think it was in late afternoon. A lot of time has passed. I
11 can't tell you exactly what time it was. In any case, quite some time
12 elapsed. We took the gravel road from Zvornik -- well, perhaps I could
13 give you an estimate but nothing exactly.
14 Q. Well, did you get back to Zvornik before dark the day of the
15 funeral ceremony?
16 A. No. As I said, I returned to Zvornik late in the evening so that
17 I would be able to report back to the unit the next day.
18 Q. So when you were on duty in the R Battalion, who was your brigade
20 A. The brigade commander, Mr. Vinko Pandurevic.
21 Q. Now, you may have heard that a lot of Muslim men, some with guns,
22 like hundreds and hundreds of them were coming out from the Srebrenica
23 enclave and clashed in Baljkovica with the Zvornik Brigade. Do you
24 remember was there any bad feelings among the soldiers, like yourself,
25 towards their commanders that allowed that Muslim column to come running
1 up through the Zvornik area?
2 A. I didn't notice any of that in my unit. In my unit there were no
3 such things.
4 Q. Did you hear about any members in your unit having to go to the
5 cultural centre in Pilica and load hundreds of dead Muslim men in the
6 back of their truck, hauling them up to the Branjevo farm and dropping
7 them there to be buried?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this
10 significantly goes beyond the scope of examination-in-chief.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but the rule allows for that contingency as
12 well. So go ahead, please answer the question.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. And, sir, I can help you think about that, that this happened on
15 the 17th of July, 1995, and you would have heard about it, if you would
16 have, when you got back from the funeral?
17 A. I state with full responsibility that I'm telling you the truth.
18 The members of my R Battalion, into which I was mobilised on the 15th,
19 had nothing to do with Pilica. I claim that in full responsibility.
20 That part of the unit, when I was attending the honour guard on the 16th,
21 was assigned to a road towards Tuzla
22 from that unit was engaged at the location you are referring to.
23 Q. Another unit of the R Battalion that did you hear was involved?
24 A. I learned of the massacre later on. I didn't know anything about
25 who the executioners were then, nor do I know now who the people were
1 there that did that and whether they were members of the battalion.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Is there re-examination,
4 Ms. Nikolic?
5 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have questions from the Bench either. So
7 Mr. Milosevic, that means that your testimony finishes here. On behalf
8 of the Trial Chamber, I would like to thank you very much for having come
9 over to give evidence in this trial and on behalf of everyone, I wish you
10 a safe journey back home. Our staff will give you all the assistance you
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic, apart from the statement, the 92
15 ter statement, I suppose there's no document?
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Precisely. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: No documents were made use of by the Prosecution.
18 So we can move -- proceed with the next witness. My understanding,
19 Ms. Nikolic, is the following, because yesterday of course when you
20 decided, or the day before, when you decided to withdraw (redacted)
21 (redacted) or whatever his name is, I start to think wanting to see
22 whether we were in a position to fill in the time until --
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And the registry informed me that you very
25 diligently managed to provide for another two witnesses to cover the time
1 we would have otherwise had. Is that correct or not? And I take it that
2 the next witness would be Mara Milosevic?
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have two
4 witnesses left for this week, Mara Milosevic and Dusica Sikimic. This
5 would exhaust the number of ten witnesses we called in for this week. I
6 apologise if we'll be forced to have some time left in this week but
7 having in mind the event with the gentleman whose name I don't want to
8 mention, we did our utmost but we are unable to bring any more witnesses
9 this week.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber certainly cannot criticize you
11 when it comes to diligence. So Mara Milosevic, please. In fact, we can
12 only commend you for your organised way in which you have been conducting
13 your case.
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mrs. Milosevic, good afternoon to you. You are
17 most welcome at this Tribunal. You've been summoned as a witness by the
18 Defence team of Drago Nikolic. Before you start your testimony our rules
19 require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course of your
20 evidence you will be speaking the truth. The text is going to be handed
21 to you now, please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn
22 commitment with us. You have to read it out aloud, madam, so that we
23 hear you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you so much, ma'am. Please make
2 yourself comfortable, sit down. And Ms. Nikolic will be asking you some
3 questions. She will then be followed presumably by Mr. McCloskey for the
5 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 WITNESS: MARA MILOSEVIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Ms. Nikolic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Milosevic. Do you feel
11 A. Good afternoon. I feel all right.
12 Q. We've met already but I would kindly ask you to state your first
13 and last name for the transcript.
14 A. My name is Mara Milosevic. I was born in 1950 in Kravica,
15 Bratunac municipality.
16 Q. What is your current occupation, Mrs. Milosevic?
17 A. I'm retired.
18 Q. Are you related to Drago Nikolic?
19 A. Yes, we are closely related.
20 Q. Do you recall that you gave a statement to Drago Nikolic's
21 Defence team on the 23rd of April, 2008?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you have an opportunity to read this statement at the time
24 when you signed it and also before your testimony when you were being
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] In accordance with the 92 ter, I
3 will now read a brief summary of your statement, Mrs. Milosevic.
4 The witness lives in Zvornik. The late Dusan Milosevic is her
5 brother and the Drago Nikolic is her cousin. The witness remembers the
6 events of the 16th and the 17th of July when her brother Dusan Nikolic
7 was killed. He was a military policeman in the Zvornik Brigade. The
8 witness remembers that on the 16th of July, 1995, there were rumours in
9 Zvornik about heavy fighting in Baljkovica and that many soldiers were
10 killed. Dusica, the wife of Dusan Nikolic, and the witness were having
11 coffee together when Dusica said that military police had also sustained
12 losses in Baljkovica.
13 The witness remembers that she called Drago Nikolic at his home
14 and that his wife, Milena, answered the phone and said that Drago had
15 just left and to call him at the command. The witness remembers that she
16 did not call Drago immediately. She felt afraid and together with
17 Slobodanka Gajic she headed towards the Zvornik hospital in the early
19 The witness did not want to enter the hospital and remained there
20 at the crossroads and Slobodanka went to ask around what was going on.
21 When Slobodanka came back, she told the witness to call Drago Nikolic to
22 find out what was going on. The witness found this odd, why Slobodanka
23 insisted that she should call Drago Nikolic and she remembers that
24 Slobodanka later explained to her that some people who were in front of
25 the hospital had told her that they had seen Drago Nikolic in hospital
1 and that he was sobbing because a close relative of his had been killed.
2 After she returned from the hospital, the witness made a call to
3 the Zvornik Brigade command and asked Drago Nikolic to tell her about her
4 brother Dusan. Drago told her that he didn't know what was going on and
5 that he would call her back shortly. After awhile, Drago Nikolic did not
6 call the witness but he suddenly showed up in her apartment with her
7 husband Dragan Milosevic and some other people and that is when they told
8 her that Dusan had been killed.
9 There was a nurse with them and she gave first aid to the
10 witness. From that moment on, Drago Nikolic was with his family all the
11 time. He organised the funeral and the transportation of Dusan's body to
12 Dusica's and Dusan's flat on the 17th of July, 1995, in the morning.
13 Dusan's funeral was held in Kravica on the 17th of July, 1995, in the
14 afternoon. The procession with the body with the late Dusan left Zvornik
15 around noon and they took the detours because it was dangerous to go
16 through Konjevic Polje.
17 The witness remembers that Drago Nikolic was with them during all
18 that time, even after Dusan's funeral, and that he helped them a lot,
19 organising everything that was necessary. The witness claims that
20 Dusan's death was a great shock for Drago Nikolic since they had been
21 inseparable from their early childhood. The late Dusan and Drago Nikolic
22 were born in the same year, 1957, they went to school together and they
23 spent time together, they socialised both in Sarajevo and in Zvornik.
24 This completes my 92 ter summary.
25 Q. Mrs. Milosevic, does this summary that I just read to you reflect
1 the statement that you gave to Drago Nikolic's Defence team?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The facts presented in your statement, are they true and
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do they reflect accurately what you would say to the Judges if
7 they were to ask any questions about the events that you talk about in
8 your statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this time I would
11 like to tender into evidence the witness statement provided by witness
12 Mara Milosevic and the number is 3D476.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection, Mr. McCloskey? No objection from
14 the other Defence teams. It is so admitted. Thank you. Please proceed.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. Now, I would like to ask you just a few questions,
17 Mrs. Milosevic, and to show you a document. Could we please have 3D462
18 up in e-court.
19 On the screen in front of you, Mrs. Milosevic, you will see a
20 document that you handed to our investigators. Do you see this document.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is this document?
23 A. This is my brother's obituary.
24 Q. Is the date of his death indicated here and the time of his
1 A. Yes, the date of his death and the time of his funeral. This is
2 the document whereby we inform our family, friends and everybody about
3 the funeral, all the details.
4 Q. Thank you very much. I won't be needing this document any
6 Mrs. Milosevic, have you ever learned who saw your late brother
7 alive -- who was the last person to see your brother alive in July 1995?
8 A. After the funeral I learned that it was a man from Bratunac, that
9 he saw him in front of the Standard and that he was on his way home but
10 was then recalled. I don't know the name of this man from Bratunac. He
11 spoke to my brothers and he said that he had seen my brother on the 15th
12 of July, it was a Saturday, in front of the Standard barracks.
13 Q. In your statement, you mentioned that you made a phone call to
14 Drago Nikolic's house on the 16th of July. Who did you speak to?
15 A. I called Drago Nikolic's house and I spoke with his wife, Milena.
16 Q. And what did she tell you?
17 A. She told me that Drago was -- had been home but that he had left
18 to go to the command maybe an hour ago. And I asked her to give me a
19 phone number so that I could call Drago and then she gave me the phone
20 number. That was it.
21 Q. And did you make this phone call?
22 A. I didn't call Drago immediately because my brother had told
23 him -- had told me not to call for minor things while he was still alive.
24 So we discussed what to do, and in the end I decided to go to the
25 hospital together with my friend, Slobodanka Gajic, just to check what
1 was going on. And when we came close to the hospital, there was quite a
2 crowd in front of the hospital, a lot of women who were crying. And I
3 simply didn't dare to go up there. I was afraid that I would get some
4 bad news about my brother so that's why my friend Slobodanka went. When
5 she came back she told me that we should call Drago. I went to my
6 sister-in-law's place, I called Drago, he answered the phone and told me
7 I should wait, that he would call me back in about half an hour when he
8 gets some information about my brother. But Drago never called back.
9 At around 3, between 3 and 4, my husband, who had also been
10 mobilised, he called me to come home because he didn't have a key. He
11 wanted to take a shower, and when I got there they were in my neighbour's
12 apartment. Drago was there; Milos Petkovic, another close relative of
13 mine was there; my husband; and the nurse. They had brought the nurse
14 with them to treat me, if necessary.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Milosevic. It's all contained in your
16 statement. I don't want you to get upset.
17 Can we please move into private session for just a couple of
18 questions, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, Ms. Nikolic. Let's go into private
21 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I didn't
17 expect the witness to give such long answers but, in fact, I can now
18 bring my examination-in-chief to an end. Thank you, Mrs. Milosevic.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. Again, I take it there's
20 no one interested from the other Defence teams in putting any questions
21 to the witness. Correct. Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I have one question.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Milosevic. My name is Peter McCloskey, I
1 represent the Prosecution. And everyone appreciates you coming here
2 today and I just have one question for you, okay? Okay. Mrs. Nikolic
3 asked you about that phone call that you made to Drago Nikolic's house
4 and you spoke to his wife. Can you tell us about what time of day you
5 made that phone call? Just give us your best estimate.
6 A. Well, it may have been around lunchtime, between 1 and 2. I
7 can't recall the exact time.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Thank you, that's all I wanted to ask you
9 about. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I take it there's no
11 re-examination, Ms. Nikolic?
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mrs. Milosevic, your testimony comes to an end
14 here. There will be no further questions for you. On behalf of the
15 Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you very much for having come over to give
16 evidence in this case. And while assuring you that our staff will extend
17 to you all the assistance you require to facilitate your return back
18 home, we all wish you a very safe journey back home.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, documents. I suppose it's only the statement
22 and the obituary; correct?
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. The other
24 document that was shown to the witness, it is 3D462, if I'm not mistaken.
25 The list has already been submitted.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Any objection?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So those documents are admitted. And we
4 come to the last witness.
5 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me, I
6 expect that the witness is already here but I just wanted to check. If
7 the witness is here, we can continue; or if she's not, we can perhaps
8 make a break now and then complete our examination of the witness in one
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the next witness here? Yes, the next witness is
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Then we can proceed.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: As you wish, Ms. Nikolic. If you prefer to have
14 the break now, we can always have it now. It doesn't make a difference
15 to us. It's up to you.
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I think perhaps this would be a
17 good time for a break.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a 25-minute break now and we'll continue
20 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ready for the next witness.
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much,
24 Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Again I make the same suggestion or recommendation
1 to you, what is already covered by the statement try to omit because it
2 is -- it's a live witness. Okay, you are right.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all of those
5 witnesses were 92 bis.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: 92 ter, they were, yeah. Good afternoon to you,
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal. You've been summoned as
10 a witness by the Nikolic Defence team. Before you start giving evidence
11 our rules require that you make a solemn declaration that in the course
12 of your testimony you will be speaking the truth. The text of the solemn
13 declaration is being handed to you now. Please read it out aloud and
14 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
18 Ms. Nikolic will be putting some questions to you and then you will be
19 cross-examined by the Prosecution and maybe by others.
20 WITNESS: DUSICA SIKIMIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examination by Ms. Nikolic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Sikimic.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. We've already met but I would like you to state your full name
1 for the record.
2 A. My name is Dusica Sikimic.
3 Q. What year were you born, when?
4 A. I was born in Sarajevo on the 12th of May, 1963.
5 Q. Are you married, do you have children?
6 A. I'm married. I have two daughters from my first marriage.
7 Q. What education do you have, what is your current occupation?
8 A. I have completed secondary education and I am a postal clerk
9 right now.
10 Q. Are you related to Drago Nikolic?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you ever family with him?
13 A. Yes, I was. I was married to Dusan Nikolic who is
14 Drago Nikolic's relative.
15 Q. Where did you live when the war broke out in Bosnia and
17 A. I lived in Sarajevo until March 1992. We left for Sabac then and
18 in August and September 1993, we came to Zvornik.
19 Q. When the war broke out, was your late husband Dusan Nikolic
20 mobilised and into what unit?
21 A. In 1992 Dusan was a member of the Zvornik -- or, rather, the
22 Bratunac Brigade, and in 1993 he was transferred to the Zvornik Brigade
23 as a military policeman.
24 Q. In July 1995, where did you live with your family?
25 A. At that time we lived in Zvornik in the town centre.
1 Q. I would now like to move on to some events in July 1995 after the
2 fall of Srebrenica and I would like to ask you whether anything of
3 significance happened in your family at that time.
4 A. Well, the events that transpired in those days left an impact on
5 my children and myself and they changed my life completely. They turned
6 it around. That is when my husband, Dusan Nikolic, was killed.
7 Q. Mrs. Sikimic, I will try to cut my examination short as much as
8 possible lest I should upset you and I would like us to cover what you
9 told us about in just a few -- with just a few questions. But if you
10 need us to take a break, please tell us that.
11 When was the last time that you saw your husband alive?
12 A. The last time I saw him was the 12th of July, 1995. That's when
13 he came. I was at Mara's place. She was my late husband's sister. He
14 came to tell us that he was going to Dzafin Kamen with the military
15 police and that he would be back soon.
16 Q. Were there any events that were related to the brigade around
17 Zvornik at that time?
18 A. Yes. This is when the columns of troops were passing by in the
19 vicinity of Zvornik from the direction of Srebrenica.
20 Q. Did you know where your husband was at the time?
21 A. Well, he had told me that that is where he was heading, but I did
22 not know where he was after that.
23 Q. Did you at any time try to learn where he was with his unit?
24 A. Yes. On the 15th of July I did try to do that. I was at work,
25 it was a Saturday and I had a direct phone line, phone number where I
1 could reach Drago Nikolic at the Standard barracks. And I called him and
2 he told me that he had seen Dusan that morning, that I should not worry.
3 Q. What happened the next day?
4 A. Well, in the morning of the 16th I went to the green market and I
5 heard people talk about fierce fighting around Zvornik at Baljkovica and
6 I was very much upset. I went to see my husband's sister. We had coffee
7 and we were both worried. We didn't know where Dusan was.
8 Q. Were you able to learn about what was happening at a later stage?
9 A. I went back home and I heard my neighbours say that there was
10 fierce fighting at Baljkovica and that there were quite a few casualties,
11 both killed and wounded, and I was really very much upset at that time.
12 Q. Did you talk to Mara Milosevic on that day?
13 A. Yes. We had coffee that morning and I called her and I told her
14 what I had learned, and she told me that she had called Drago Nikolic and
15 that he had told her that everything was fine and that there was no need
16 for her to get worried.
17 Q. Where were you at the time?
18 A. I was in my apartment. I had asked Mara to come and see me and
19 that's what she did.
20 Q. Did Mara come alone?
21 A. No, no. Mara was there with Slobodanka Gajic and they had been
22 to the hospital en route. Mara didn't dare to go to the hospital itself,
23 she remained at the crossroads. Slobodanka Gajic went to the hospital
24 itself and she heard that Dusan had been killed. But she didn't want to
25 tell us that at the time, this thing that she had heard. She came to us
1 and she told us that we should call Drago Nikolic.
2 Q. Did anyone call Drago Nikolic and from where?
3 A. When they came to my apartment, Mara called Drago Nikolic again
4 and talked to him, and he told her he didn't know anything and that he
5 would let us know if he learned anything.
6 Q. Do you recall what happened later on?
7 A. After that, Drago Nikolic called Mara and Mara went to their
8 apartment. I remained where I was. I was very upset because I had this
9 feeling that something was wrong, and I went after them. I came to
10 Mara's apartment and when I got to the door, she was crying and she asked
11 me, "Why are you here? Drago Nikolic and Mico Petkovic had gone to see
12 you." And I asked her what had happened and she said, "Well, Dula was
14 Q. Did you then go back to your apartment?
15 A. No, no, I didn't. I was in no state to do so. I remained in
16 Mara's place and all of us, we spent this night at her place.
17 Q. And did you see Drago Nikolic that day?
18 A. Yes, I did. Drago Nikolic came with my brother-in-law and my
19 father-in-law. They had gone to the hospital to see the late Dusan. We
20 were all there at Mara's place organising the funeral.
21 Q. How long did you remain there at Mara's place that night?
22 A. Well, deep into the night because we had this discussion how to
23 organise the funeral, who would do what, so we stayed late into the
25 Q. Do you recall what date it was?
1 A. It was the 16th of July, the night between the 16th and the 17th
2 of July.
3 Q. 1995?
4 A. Yes, 1995.
5 Q. Can you tell us what happened the next day?
6 A. Well, the next morning I went to the apartment to make some
7 preparations for the funeral, and around 10 they brought Dusan in, his
8 body, and in accordance with our customs, the dead man must leave the
9 house. He was brought in by the military police and Drago Nikolic was
10 with them. He took part in organising the funeral and preparing the
11 casket, the suit, and all the other things that were needed to bury the
13 Q. Do you remember when this funeral occurred in Kravica?
14 A. The funeral was in the late afternoon in Kravica. We headed out
15 of Zvornik at around 11, or maybe 12. And we took the detours, we didn't
16 take the main road. We followed the Drina River. It took us a long time
17 to get to Kravica which was where the funeral was held.
18 After the funeral, we returned to Bratunac where the funeral mass
19 was held.
20 Q. Was Drago Nikolic with you at the funeral that day?
21 A. Yes, Drago Nikolic was with us at all times.
22 Q. From the morning until the evening of that day?
23 A. Yes, that's right. From the morning until the evening of that
24 day he was with us.
25 Q. Did you ever talk to Slobodanka Gajic, you mentioned her a little
1 while ago. What was it that she learned when she was in Zvornik on the
2 16th of July, 1995?
3 A. Yes. After I went back to Zvornik, I asked her why she didn't
4 tell us that at that time and she said that it was simply because she
5 didn't want to be the first person to tell us that, that she had heard
6 that Dusan had been killed and that Drago Nikolic had also been there and
7 that he had taken his wedding ring and his belt and his uniform, the one
8 that he was killed in. And then Mara Milosevic gave me this wedding ring
9 later. Slobodanka told me that he was very much upset.
10 Q. Just for the record, where did Slobodanka hear that?
11 A. In the hospital, that's where she heard it.
12 Q. Was Drago at the hospital?
13 A. Yes, he was. He was in the hospital. He had been notified by
14 phone. He was the first one to see Dusan dead.
15 Q. Did you later on ask Drago Nikolic how he came to learn of your
16 husband's death?
17 A. Yes. We spoke after the funeral. He said that he was at home
18 and that he was told that Dusan was taken to the hospital. At that point
19 he went to the hospital and that's when he saw him.
20 Q. Who did you hear that from?
21 A. From Drago.
22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 3D378 brought
23 up in e-court.
24 Q. While we are waiting for the document, I wanted to ask you,
25 Mrs. Sikimic, at the document and tell us what it is?
1 A. It is a death certificate for my late husband, Dusan Nikolic.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will no longer need
3 the document.
4 Q. Did you ever hear who the last person was to see your husband
6 A. Yes. After the funeral a soldier arrived in Bratunac. He told
7 me that on the 15th of July, 1995, at Standard, he saw Dusan who was on
8 his way home, and Dusan gave him cigarettes at that time.
9 Q. When did you meet Drago Nikolic?
10 A. After I got married in 1983 to Dusan, that's when it was.
11 Q. What was the relationship like between the late Dusan,
12 Drago Nikolic and Drago's four brothers?
13 A. It was a good relationship. Drago and Dusan were born the same
14 year. They grew up together, finished primary school. They socialised
15 as if they were brothers.
16 Q. What was his relationship with the other -- with the rest of
17 Drago's brothers?
18 A. The same.
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
20 examination-in-chief. I have no further questions.
21 Thank you, Ms. Sikimic.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. I take it there are no
23 cross-examination from the Defence teams. Correct. Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Just a couple of questions, Mr. President.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Sikimic. My name is Peter McCloskey. I
2 represent the Prosecution. Just a couple of questions, if that's all
4 You mentioned that you called Drago Nikolic's house on the --
5 sorry, you called Drago Nikolic at Standard on the 15th of July; right.
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Do you remember roughly what time of day that was?
8 A. I do. I do. It was around 10 a.m. It was a Saturday and I was
9 with the post office at the time. It was a working day but we had short
10 hours. We would go home at 1 o'clock
11 Standard around 10 a.m.
12 Q. Okay. And the next day, the 16th, you mentioned you were
13 organising the funeral that evening with some of your relatives. Who was
14 with you organising the funeral that evening?
15 A. We were making arrangements concerning the funeral in
16 Mara Milosevic's apartment. Ilija Nikolic and his other -- Dusan's other
17 brother were present. Drago Nikolic, Slobodan Nikolic, Mara Milosevic,
18 that is to say, my late husband's sister, and the Nikolic family.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I take it no re-examination?
21 Madam, there are no further questions for you which means your
22 testimony finishes here. Our staff will give you all the assistance you
23 need to facilitate your return back home. On behalf of the
24 Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give testimony
25 and we also wish you a safe journey back home.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: No documents?
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] One, Your Honour. I hope the list
5 had been sent. It is a 3D382 that we showed to the witness.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objection, Mr. McCloskey? Is it 382 or
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no objection, Mr. President. There's the
9 English version of this -- I guess it's the B/C/S, it's dated 2006, but I
10 guess if the original says 2006, that's not a translation issue.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So no objection. And the document is
13 Yes. Did you wish --
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] 3D378. Sorry, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: 3D378. All right. There were a couple of motions
16 that we could decide orally but I have to -- let's leave them for Monday
17 because when I remember -- and I can locate it straightaway, the other
18 one I have to -- let's leave that for Monday anyway.
19 There is a motion that has now been filed by Madam Fauveau,
20 albeit in French, I suppose you know exactly what she is after. If you
21 could give us a oral response at your earliest, we will decide it
22 together with the others.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, that will be no problem.
24 I've spoken to Ms. Fauveau. More documents and materials for the 65 ter
25 list, it shouldn't be a problem.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
2 MR. JOSSE: We may need a little time to consider that, please.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. So we'll hear from
4 you on Monday, Mr. Josse, maybe?
5 MR. JOSSE: Well, we would like a little bit longer, Your Honour.
6 And I'm not sure -- I don't think -- I think quite a lot of these
7 documents are not yet translated into English, but perhaps Madam Fauveau
8 would help in relation to that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Her microphone is on.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters could not hear, sorry.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately those
14 documents are not yet translated. We are going to do our best that the
15 documents are translated when we present our case. Some of these
16 documents we were received in July and August and it is quite normal that
17 we were not able to have them translated yet. But I just wanted to say
18 that that motion is regards some document that we received in July and we
19 had researched some circumstances with regard to those documents and so
20 we have not inquired about the documents received on the 29th of August,
21 but we will do -- we will give you a response as soon as we come back
22 from the break that you have granted us.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
24 Yes, Mr. Josse. And then Ms. Nikolic.
25 MR. JOSSE: Could I make it clear to my learned friend that I'm
1 not being critical of the fact that they are not translated, I simply
2 wanted to point that out and say that we do require a little bit more
3 time and we will not have an answer for Monday.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: No. You will have the time you require, Mr. Josse.
5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: The same applies to the Prosecution, of course.
7 This was not a deadline we were imposing, we were just asking.
8 Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one question
10 that has to do with the videolink that is due to take place on the 24th
11 of September in Belgrade
12 live in Zvornik and it's surroundings. Because of the fact that we were
13 trying to make their logistics easier in terms of travel, is it possible
14 that we begin with the videolink at 10 o'clock instead of 9, which would
15 be the regular session time?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And between 9 and 10 can we do something else?
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this point, Your Honour, we have
18 three witnesses scheduled for Monday and Tuesday and it is possible that
19 at least one of them will spill over to Wednesday. Should that not be
20 the case, we will inform you in time.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll see to that when we come to it.
22 Yes, anything else you wish to state? Nothing. So we stand adjourned
23 until Monday. We have got your list of the witnesses for next week,
24 Ms. Nikolic. And I think we are all organised and ready for the coming
25 week. In the meantime, tomorrow we will make use of to try and round up
1 our deliberations on some of the motions that are still pending. Thank
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.10 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of
5 September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.