Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26195

 1                           Thursday, 25 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, ma'am.

11             For the record, all the accused are present.  The Prosecution

12     team is composed of Mr. McCloskey only today.  Amongst the Defence teams,

13     I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic; Mr. Lazarevic, I don't see him

14     there; Mr. Krgovic; and that's it.

15             Good morning to you, Colonel Landry.

16             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome to this Tribunal where you are going to

18     give testimony as an expert witness summoned by the Defence team for

19     Accused Nikolic.  Before you do so, our Rules require that you enter a

20     solemn declaration to the effect that in the course of your testimony,

21     you will be speaking the truth.  The text is going to be handed to you.

22     I don't know whether it's in English or in French.  In either language,

23     please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn commitment with us.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

Page 26196

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Merci, Messr. Landry.  Make yourself comfortable.

 2             It was decided a couple of days ago that because of the subject

 3     matter of your testimony, same will be received in private session.

 4     Reason is that if we don't, we will have to move from private to public

 5     like a yo-yo throughout the whole testimony, and that will not be

 6     convenient or acceptable to anyone because the public sessions themselves

 7     would not make any sense.  It was put to the parties to come to an

 8     agreement on this, and they have both agreed that it is best if we hear

 9     your evidence in private session.

10             First, you are going to be asked questions by Mr. Bourgon, I

11     notice, and you will then -- he will then be followed by others on

12     cross-examination.

13             So shall we stay in open session for the first part, and then you

14     tell us, Mr. Bourgon, when to move into private session.  I am using

15     private session because, otherwise, with closed session, we'd have to

16     bring down the curtains and I think we can still live with a private

17     session without having to feel further suffocated in here.

18             Mr. Bourgon.

19             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning Mr. President.  Good morning, Judges.

20     Good morning, colleagues.

21                           WITNESS:  REMI LANDRY

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Mr. Bourgon:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel.

25        A.   Good morning, Mr. Bourgon.

Page 26197

 1             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, this testimony will be done entirely

 2     in French.  I'll be asking the questions and the witness will be

 3     answering in French.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's fair enough.  For me and Judge Prost, I will

 5     probably be following the testimony in French anyway.

 6             MR. BOURGON:  [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Colonel, my first question is very simple:  Should we call you

 8     Mr., sir, Professor, or Colonel?

 9        A.   You can call me "sir," but you can call me whatever you feel more

10     comfortable in.

11        Q.   Would you please give us your name?

12        A.   Remi Landry.

13        Q.   How old are you?

14        A.   Fifty-seven years.

15        Q.   What is your date of birth?

16        A.   1st of April 1951.

17        Q.   Colonel, before we begin --

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Un moment, s'il vous plait.

19             If you could explain also to the witness why I have asked you to

20     slow down.

21             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Colonel, before we begin, I would like to remind you that since

23     we both speak the same language, it is very important that you wait

24     before you answer.  You wait for me to put the question to you before you

25     answer immediately.  So do you understand?

Page 26198

 1        A.   Yes, of course, I do.

 2        Q.   I would also like to remind you that it is very important not to

 3     speak too fast in order to enable interpreters to faithfully interpret

 4     what you are saying into English and into B/C/S.  Do you understand this?

 5        A.   Yes, very well.

 6        Q.   I see that you brought with you a large amount of documents.

 7     What are these documents?

 8        A.   Well, I brought my report that I sent to you.  (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please, redact straightaway.

12             I think, Mr. Bourgon, please use your discretion.  The witness

13     should know that he shouldn't be mentioning any names in open session, at

14     least he has to refrain of doing that a until we are in private session;

15     otherwise, we go into private session straightaway.

16             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, as the Presiding Judge just explained

18     it to you, until we are in closed session, I would like to ask you not to

19     mention any names, please.

20        A.   I shall do my best.

21        Q.   You said that you brought your report with you.  Do you have a

22     copy of your report in English and in French?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  I have a French copy and an English copy of my

24     report, and they are both with me.

25        Q.   Do you have other documents other than the documents that you

Page 26199

 1     mentioned to me, so a copy of the these two reports of your report, as

 2     well as the document that we have given you?

 3        A.   I have some notes helping me to answer to your questions and some

 4     notes I took, so that will help me through my testimony.

 5        Q.   I already explained to you that all the notes that you have

 6     brought with you were already given to the Prosecutor.  Can you please

 7     tell us in what language your report was drafted originally?

 8        A.   In French.

 9        Q.   Were you able so far to check the English translation of your

10     report?

11        A.   Yes.  I had the occasion to peruse through it.

12        Q.   And what is the impression you had?

13        A.   Upon checking the report, I see that it seems to reflect very

14     well my French report, but I must note that the English report is

15     followed by my electronic signature, and I just wanted to make absolutely

16     certain that I'm not the author of this translation.  I did not translate

17     this report.  And I also noted some small discrepancies, and also some

18     terms were not interpreted or translated exactly as they should.  So

19     there are some discrepancy between the French and English report.

20        Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.

21             I would like to hand you a document bearing number 3D504, and I

22     would like you to tell us what it is.

23             MR. BOURGON:  It's a list that was uploaded in e-court yesterday,

24     but it was not yet available on e-court.  I will ask the court usher to

25     give a paper copy, so everybody in the courtroom has received a copy of

Page 26200

 1     this proposed exhibit.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to put that exhibit on

 3     the ELMO, this way everybody will be able to see it.  What is it exactly?

 4        A.   This is a version -- or actually, this is a list of translation

 5     mistakes that I noticed.  So when I checked the English translation, this

 6     is what I noticed.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  We will no longer need this exhibit.

 8             Given this observation and given the list of mistakes that you

 9     wrote, do you think that we can use your -- the English version, rather

10     the translated version of your report for your testimony?

11        A.   There's no problem.  We can definitely use the English

12     translation, but I would just like to mention, once again, that the

13     French version should nevertheless be the authentic one, the one we

14     should rely on.

15        Q.   Very well.  Your report is divided in ten parts.  The first

16     portion of your report deals with your CV.  So please take annex A of

17     your report.

18             MR. BOURGON:  3D410 page 1.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you find this exhibit, Colonel?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What is it exactly?

22        A.   It's my CV, curriculum vitae, my biography.

23        Q.   When was it made?

24        A.   In April of 2008.

25        Q.   Are there any changes that you would like to bring to your CV to

Page 26201

 1     update it?

 2        A.   I would just like to specify that I did not complete my doctoral

 3     thesis, and if everything goes well, I should obtain my Ph.D. by

 4     Christmas.

 5        Q.   Are there any other changes that you would like to mention?

 6        A.   The one more small change is that I should mention that I should

 7     start teaching at McGill in January 2009 and the courses on Canada in

 8     foreign affairs.

 9        Q.   Colonel, I would like to go back on some aspects of your CV, and

10     I would like to ask you to confirm to us the following facts:  You began

11     working for the Canadian Armed Forces in 1978?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you were within the forces for 34 years?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You retired in 2002?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   When you retired, your rank was lieutenant-colonel; is that

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   What is your Ph.D. thesis, the thesis that you plan to finish by

21     December?

22        A.   Turbulence and Institutional Changes within the International

23     Society, a Historic Perspective.

24        Q.   When you were within the Canadian Armed Forces, what was your

25     classification as an officer?

Page 26202

 1        A.   I was a mechanized officer in the parachute division.

 2        Q.   And you are a St. Jean Royal Military College -- you obtained a

 3     diploma or degree, rather, from St. Jean Royal Military College?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And how long did you study there?

 6        A.   From 1973 to 1975.

 7        Q.   Did you obtain a diploma from this institution?

 8        A.   Yes.  First university cycle business administration, so a

 9     bachelors degree.

10        Q.   And what year?

11        A.   In 1973.

12        Q.   I see that from 1973 to 1975, you were a Mechanized Infantry

13     Platoon commander within the 22nd Royal Regiment; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And from 1975 to 1976, you served as an intelligence officer with

16     the 1st Airborne Commando, Canadian Airborne Regiment; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.  And during this period, I also acted as the informations

18     officer of the 1st Airborne Commando.

19        Q.   I also see that you were informations officer within the

20     1st Commando.  Did you follow a specific training before you became an

21     intelligence officer?

22        A.   Yes.  I followed an advanced intelligence course which lasted

23     approximately three months.  This course was dispensed to officers and

24     majors.

25        Q.   And between 1979 and 1982, you were a deputy commander and

Page 26203

 1     commander of Mechanized Infantry Company; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.

 3        Q.   Between 1982 and 1986, you served in the 1st Battalion Royal 22nd

 4     Regiment in Lahr in Germany, and you held the position of a captain?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   During that period, did you also have other functions?

 7        A.   Yes, I was a commander of the Canadian Forces Support unit for

 8     NATO.

 9        Q.   And what does a commander of support company or support company

10     commander does?

11        A.   It offers support to an infantry platoon and --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the answer, please.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let him finish the answer please.

14             Then we hear what you have to say, Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise.  I don't understand French, but we

16     are not getting a full translation, and I note that the CV says

17     "personnel officer" for this unit, and a command -- and the description

18     we are getting of this job doesn't sound like a commander, but I just

19     want to know if we have the translation right.  Is he a personnel officer

20     or a commander of this unit?  But we are not getting a full translation.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.  I think Mr. Bourgon will handle this.

22             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The CV of Mr. Landry

23     says "personnel officer," indeed.  That is why I put the question to him

24     so he could explain what that is.  The real position that he mentioned in

25     French was "adjutant."  Adjutant is a very specific position within any

Page 26204

 1     battalion, and it's like an executive assistant to the commander.

 2     That's, I think, what is the witness explained, but maybe the translation

 3     was not properly made.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's first have a confirmation of what you've just

 5     stated by witness who, after all, is the one giving testimony.

 6             Colonel Landry, you followed what Mr. Bourgon has just said.  Do

 7     you confirm that?  Mr. Bourgon was also in the Canadian Army, so you

 8     should be speaking the same language.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I see.  Does that satisfy you, Mr. McCloskey?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just so it's clear.  He wasn't a commander, if

12     that's the thrust of it.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's how I understand it to be now.  Yes.

14             Okay.  Go ahead.  Thank you.

15             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Colonel, in 1987, I see that you were chosen to follow a 12 month

17     long course at the Canadian Forces Command and Staff College in Toronto.

18     My question is as follows:  Who is this course destined to and what is

19     the goal of this course?

20        A.   This course is for commanders that are just about to be promoted

21     to the rank of lieutenant-colonel [as interpreted].  This course enables

22     majors to learn the job, how to become a commander, and this course

23     enables these same officers to evolve as a senior staff officer within

24     headquarters of brigades, offering superior training and within the

25     inter-army headquarters.

Page 26205

 1             MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I would just

 2     like to bring a correction.  On page 10 line 12, it is written in English

 3     that it is a course for commanders that are just about to be promoted to

 4     the rank of lieutenant-colonel.

 5        Q.   What did you say exactly.

 6        A.   It is a course for majors, for majors.  I should mention that the

 7     term "major" does not exist in French.  So, in French, it's "commandant,"

 8     "commander."  Maybe that's why there was a mistake in the translation, in

 9     fact.

10        Q.   Thank you very much, Colonel.

11             From 1987 and 1989, you were the chief instructor at the Canadian

12     Army Land Forces School; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In your CV, we see that you took part in an operational

15     deployment while there were some internal troubles in Oka in 1989.  Could

16     you please tell us something about that?

17        A.   Follow a crisis in a Mohawk reserve in the greater area of

18     Montreal, they had erected barriers on national roads.  They also took

19     possession of a bridge, a major bridge, in Montreal, and following police

20     actions which turned out to be fruitless, the provincial government asked

21     the army to intervene in order to enable the -- to end the crisis

22     basically.  My implication at that time, I was deputy major of the

23     battalion, and I was in charge of the city of Oka.  So, basically, my

24     deployment was trying to stabilize the situation.

25        Q.   And you were promoted to a lieutenant-colonel in 1991; is that

Page 26206

 1     correct?

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Un moment, s'il vous plait.

 3             Yes.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think he meant deputy commander, but -- and

 5     it's important, so if that's correct.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, you know, Mr. Bourgon.

 7             Thank you.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Colonel, the transcript says on page 11, line 12 that you were at

10     the time a deputy major.  What was your rank?

11        A.   I was the deputy commander -- "deputy commander" in English, and

12     "commandant" in French - of the 1st Battalion of the 22nd Royal Regiment.

13        Q.   In 1993, you were a superior officer in the headquarters of the

14     land forces; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16        Q.   And in 1993, you were a member of the ECMM mission of the

17     European Community deployed to Bosnia and Herzegovina, where you were

18     deputy chief of mission for the regional centre of Zenica; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   How long did this mission last?

21        A.   Six months.

22        Q.   During that mission, did you have the opportunity to see how the

23     military forces operated -- the opposing military forces operated?

24        A.   Yes, indeed.  I was in a position to see the forces of the BiH

25     army and the forces of the HVO and HV armies oppose in very difficult

Page 26207

 1     moments and very violent moments.

 2        Q.   Have you had the opportunity to see the Serb army of Bosnia

 3     operate?

 4        A.   Yes, indirectly, following the actions taken by the BiH army to

 5     counter the advances or prepare offences against the Serb army.  And in

 6     my frequent contacts with the staff officers of UNPROFOR, I could get

 7     acquainted with the nature of the operations led by the Serbs at the

 8     time.

 9        Q.   You mentioned "UNPROFOR."  What exactly is it?

10        A.   It was the supposedly peacekeeping mission for the whole of

11     Bosnia Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Your mission in Bosnia Herzegovina, did it allow you to draw any

13     conclusions regarding the operations of the opposing forces?

14        A.   One of my first findings was to realise the fact that the three

15     armies in presence used the same doctrine, which was the former doctrine

16     of the Yugoslav Army amongst others.  I also was in a position to get

17     acquainted with the geography of Bosnia Herzegovina because I took --

18     well, I travelled many times between Mostar and Tuzla, and I also got to

19     know the way the 3rd Bosnia Corps operated.  And even on some occasions,

20     I supervised or came into contact with the authorities of the 2nd Camp

21     because I was familiar with their positions in the greater region of

22     Tuzla.

23        Q.   Do you have the feeling, Colonel, that you have a good enough

24     knowledge of the Serb army in Bosnia to be able to answer or give

25     truthful answers to the questions you were asked in your report?

Page 26208

 1        A.   I think that given my experience in Bosnia that I was in a

 2     position, given the test I was entrusted with, to give a good analysis of

 3     the military doctrine of the armies that were present; and that given my

 4     military education, given my subsequent experiences, and as a result of

 5     my different interventions here and of my education in general, I do

 6     think that I am in a position to be able to do what I was asked to do,

 7     i.e., to analyse the leadership aspects and military professionalism

 8     aspects of the whole situation.

 9        Q.   If I pause, it's to allow the interpreters to be able to follow

10     the rhythm of the questions and answers.

11             So, Colonel, without naming anybody or giving us a period of time

12     during which were covered by your report, what is the main topic in your

13     report?

14        A.   You asked me to analyse a testimony.

15        Q.   Now, let me specify.  What subject matter is your report all

16     about?

17        A.   It's about how operations were led in and around Zvornik in the

18     period of time that covers 13th to 15th of July 1995.

19        Q.   We'll have the opportunity to come back to this.  In 1997, you

20     were transferred to the Peace Academy in New York.  Now, what is this

21     exactly?

22        A.   The International Peace Academy is, before anything else, a

23     think-tank that is set up to serve the UN and that analyses peace

24     operations and peacekeeping operations initiated by the UN.

25        Q.   On page 14, it appears before you on line 6, it is said the

Page 26209

 1     period covered by your report is July 13th to 15th.  Did you mention

 2     those dates?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I saw that you got many awards in your resume; namely, one that

 5     is the award for Military Order?

 6        A.   It is one of the distinctions given by the Canadian army by the

 7     Governor General that is given to some military officers for their

 8     professionalism all over their career.

 9        Q.   To come back to my former question:  Did you analyse the day of

10     July 12th, Colonel?

11        A.   Yes, indeed.  I analysed the 12th, the 13th, the 14th, and the

12     15th of July in my report.

13        Q.   On page 3 of your resume, I see that you followed several courses

14     during your career, which was the purpose of these courses you followed.

15        A.   It was greatly or mostly to allow me as an officer to get a

16     better understanding of the armed forces in general and the profession in

17     the armed forces, and to be able to operate in any functions that can be

18     found inside mechanized infantry battalions or inside an airborne unit.

19        Q.   In 2002, I see that you chose to follow in academic course.  What

20     about your masters degree which you got in 1997, can you tell us more

21     about that?

22        A.   Following my stay in Bosnia in 1993, the Canadian Air Forces

23     offered me to follow a masters programme, which I initiated and

24     completed.  I got a masters in political sciences, and my topic was "The

25     Origins of the Conflict in Bosnia."

Page 26210

 1        Q.   And, today, Colonel, you are a consultant in security issues and

 2     military analyst for different media and other organizations; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   On the basis of your experience, I can see that you were called

 6     to testify on two occasions in this Tribunal.  In which cases did you

 7     testify?

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection for leading on -- because it's unclear

10     whether he has been called as an expert or what.  So if he could be clear

11     on, you know, why he was called in those cases.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon, I think you can handle this.  Go

13     ahead.

14             MR. BOURGON:  This is the question I'm going to ask to the

15     witness.  I don't see the point of the objection, but I thank my

16     colleague.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] In which cases did you testify, Colonel?

18        A.   Excuse me.  I didn't understand your question.

19        Q.   According to your CV, you testified in two occasions before this

20     Court in two cases.  Which are they?

21        A.   The first one is in the Blasic case, and second one is Mr. Kordic

22     as a fact witness.

23        Q.   Who called you to testify in these cases?

24        A.   The Prosecutor.

25        Q.   Colonel, did you have the occasion to work on any other case in

Page 26211

 1     this Court?

 2        A.   Yes.  I had the opportunity to work with you awhile ago in the

 3     case of General Hadzihasanovic.

 4        Q.   What were you asked to do on that occasion?

 5        A.   I was mainly asked to advise you on the testimony of the expert

 6     witness called by the Prosecutor, i.e., General Reinhold, former

 7     commander of the Allied Forces in Europe, and to be able to give you some

 8     advice on the military aspects of the other witnesses who testified in

 9     that case for the period that I was involved.

10        Q.   In the completion of those tasks, did you have the opportunity of

11     studying any further the doctrine of the former Yugoslavia army?

12        A.   Yes, indeed, I did.  In order to be able to give you better

13     advice, I had at the time to take an in-depth look at the doctrinal

14     aspects of the Yugoslav Army.

15        Q.   As a lecturer at the university, I see that you taught military

16     ethics and leadership.  When was this and what exactly is this about?

17        A.   These are courses of professional development for officers, and

18     at the time, I was asked to teach at the Kingston Royal Military College,

19     the French section of the Montreal region.  This was done in 2001 and

20     2004, if I remember correctly.

21             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, if we can now move into private

22     session for the continuation of his testimony.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We are going to do that immediately.

24                           [Private session]

25     (redacted)

Page 26212











11 Pages 26212-26228 redacted. Private session.















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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  For the record, we are resuming this after the

11     break.  We will revert immediately to private session as explained for

12     the reasons explained earlier on.  So let's go into private session

13     again, please.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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Page 26230











11 Pages 26230-26277 redacted. Private session.















Page 26278

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 2   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yesterday, before we adjourned we heard, Mr. Josse

12     saying that he did not have any further reservations about the Miletic

13     motion of the 18th of September, seeking authorisation to add some

14     documents to the list of exhibits to the 65 ter list of exhibits.  I will

15     put the question again.

16             Prosecution, we know already, haven't got any objection.

17             Anyone else has any objection?  No objections.

18             So the motion is being granted orally now.

19             Then, Mr. McCloskey, we are not asking you to give your position

20     now or imposing any dates for the time being, but there are three new

21     Borovcanin motions which we would like you to give your attention to as

22     early as possible, keeping in mind that the Borovcanin Defence supposedly

23     should start on the 6th of October.  Right.  Take your time, but as soon

24     as you are in a position to give us your response, let us know.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have been talking about

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 1     counsel.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 3             So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of

 6                           September 2008, at 9.00 a.m.