1 Friday, 26 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody. Good morning,
7 Madam Registrar. Could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are here. Amongst the
11 Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Lazarevic,
12 Mr. Krgovic, and that's all.
13 Prosecution, as yesterday, is represented by Mr. McCloskey.
14 Again, for the record as yesterday and the previous case, we are
15 sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis. The witness is present.
16 Bonjour. We are going to proceed with your testimony this
17 morning. Mr. Bourgon will conclude his direct, and then I suppose there
18 would be some teams that would cross-examine you, certainly the
19 Prosecution. I don't anticipate that we can finish with your testimony
21 Mr. McCloskey, how long do you envisage you require?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I really don't think I'm going to be at that long
23 with the witness, Mr. President. I hope we can finish today and let him
24 get on for the weekend.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. Unless he likes The
1 Hague so much, like I do. Yes, exactly, and would prefer to stay.
2 Mr. Bourgon, good morning to you.
3 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Judges.
4 Good morning, colleagues.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I need to remind you that we are in
6 open session and that we need to go into private session if we are to
8 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session, please.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 26282-26306 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse, you asked to cross-examine the witness.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:
9 Q. Colonel Landry, my name is David Josse, and I represent
10 General Gvero and I want to ask you a few questions about a particular
11 document but before I do that, and to put it in context, we need to go
12 into private session, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
14 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
17 MR. JOSSE: So could we have P45 in e-court.
18 Q. Whilst it's being found, this is an order that purports to be
19 signed by my client, Lieutenant General Milan Gvero on the 13th of July
20 of 1995. The first thing I'd like to ask you is are you aware that in
21 fact it only contains his block signature, not his personal signature?
22 A. Could I see the block signature?
23 Q. Yes. You'll need the second page in the original B/C/S. You've
24 only got the English there; correct?
25 A. I do have the English copyright under my eyes.
1 Q. If you look on the right-hand side of the screen in front you,
2 you will see the block signature in original. So can you confirm that's
3 the block signature?
4 A. I agree with you, sir, there is no signature by the general.
5 Q. Now, in the course of the preparation of your report you have had
6 a chance to look and analyse this document; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And in that record I'd like to ask you that bearing in mind what
9 you have learnt was happening in the Zvornik area at the time, do you
10 find anything surprising in the contents of that document?
11 A. Not at all. As a matter of fact, I used this document to -- to
12 illustrate the fact that the situation in Zvornik was well known by the
13 corps and the corps was more or less providing additional information on
14 how to deal with -- with the column of the 28th Division.
15 Q. And we know that in fact this document was replicated, perhaps
16 this is what you are referring to by Colonel Zivanovic at corps level
17 shortly after he received it, and that that's what you mean; is that
19 A. You're totally right. I should have provided this additional
21 Q. Now, in the first paragraph of the document we see a -- let me
22 start again.
23 In number 1 underneath "Order," we see the use of the word
24 "block" by the drafter of the document. What significance, if any, do
25 you place the use of that word?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, could we have -- I don't have that on my
3 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Let me provide a copy, a hard copy for my
4 learned friend, because it might assist as well.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. They've flipped to it on the e-court,
6 so hopefully we're okay, if I can read it.
7 MR. JOSSE:
8 Q. So it's underneath order number 1, I'm not going to read it out
9 because we have it there; but the drafter of the document chose to use
10 the word "block." Does that have any military significance?
11 A. Yes. The term "block" means that you have to stop them but
12 without being engaging totally your force. When we want -- for example,
13 if we wanted to signify that the brigade had to hold the ground the word
14 "defence" would have been put saying that they have to stop, they have to
15 hold the ground. But the word "block" means that you have to do whatever
16 is in your capacity to -- to stop them and at the same time to avoid
17 engaging your own forces. So you stop, and then when you feel that the
18 enemy will eventually have the strong end of the battle you just back up
20 So that's my understanding of that word in this sense here. So
21 they know the column is very big, very large; the column is advancing,
22 and they probably realise that the people on the ground don't really have
23 all the strength at their disposal to -- really to stop it and to crush
24 them. So keep contact, block them, pull back, block them, pull back
25 while we are -- you're passing us the information and we'll do whatever
1 it's appropriate to help you out.
2 Q. In the next sentence we see the use of the word "ambushes." We
3 see the word "ambushes" perhaps I should say. What do you understand by
4 its use in this context?
5 A. First of all, what it tells me is that it tells me that the
6 column is not a single body that is moving together but that there's
7 probably a -- a strong body that is moving in one direction and at the
8 same time that there's troops that are in disarray and that they are just
9 trying to escape. And what it means here is that you have to do your
10 best to ambush them. And when we are ambushing, it means we have to set
11 up a kind of defensive position to be able to destroy whatever is going
12 through a disarray. But assuming there's a difference between the main
13 body and those troops that are in disarray, that are just trying to
14 escape, which means it's for smaller group of enemy.
15 Q. I think you just used the French word there. Is that right?
16 Perhaps you would like to repeat it and it can perhaps be translated by
17 the interpreters into English.
18 A. I'll try to say it in English more properly. What I meant is
19 that the word ambush, as I explained earlier is definitely not for the
20 big -- for the main body of the enemy moving because it would take too
21 much strength and forces to be able to do it, but probably ambush means
22 to be able to destroy small pocket of enemy that are in disarray, that
23 are trying to escape, and that we know that they will eventually go by a
24 specific road; and they have no other avenue than to go through this
25 road, and then you ambush them. You prepare a position as they will be
1 going through that road to destroy them.
2 Q. In --
3 A. To attack them.
4 Q. In this context is there anything wrong with using that word?
5 A. No, there's nothing wrong in using the term ambush. I mean it's
6 part of the vocabulary of any army that I have been acquainted with.
7 Q. In order to prepare a document like this, in your estimation does
8 one need operational experience?
9 A. It has to be an operational document. It has to be prepared by
11 Q. And why do you say that?
12 A. Well, it's -- it's giving specific operational orders.
13 Q. Quite technical nature in other words?
14 A. Technical nature. As you know, in headquarters there are
15 different branches, and this document had to be prepared by the operation
16 branch. So those are the one that are conducting the operation. Those
17 are the one that are coordinating all the other branches. Those are the
18 one that are fully aware of the resources, and those are the one that do
19 have the authorities, the knowledge to -- eventually to draft that kind
20 of operative order.
21 Q. We know that, as you've already said, this was a long column.
22 For the most part the evidence suggests that it was the front of the
23 column that was armed. Are you able to say whether this order is
24 directed to any particular part of the column?
25 A. It's very difficult for me to be able to come up with this
1 conclusion. All I say is -- all I've read through it is it's directed at
2 the 28th Division, and the way that it's been written, my understanding
3 is that they know by now that the 28th Division is not moving as a main
4 body or as a sole combat body, but that there's all kind of people in it.
5 That's all I can say for reading it.
6 Q. We can see that in the first sentence in the body of the
7 document, it's on the screen, it refers to these people crossing over to
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So that's a clear reference to those that were carrying weapons.
11 Would you agree with that?
12 A. I would agree with that, yes.
13 Q. Now, immediately after that we see a reference to inveterate
14 criminals and villains. Among them are inveterate criminals and
15 villains. What do you make of that part of this document?
16 A. Again it's telling on that composition of that column and based
17 on whoever wrote that message, what they wanted to portray is that those
18 in that column are not just normal soldiers but within them there's
19 criminal, and dangerous criminal that will eventually -- will be capable
20 of doing anything just to get through the 2nd Corps. Meaning that you
21 will have to be careful and probably those criminal will not be operating
22 within that main body but will try to use other means, violent means,
23 criminal means to get through the 2nd Corps. And I think, too -- sorry
24 if I interrupt you.
25 Q. Go on.
1 A. Probably the message was intended to not just for the military
2 command but my feeling was that it was intended to -- to the police
3 forces in all the region, to alert them that the situation was that
4 there's probably criminal within that column, and every attempt should be
5 made to prevent any criminal action against the people of -- against
6 Serbs. That's my understanding of that part.
7 Q. In the context of the behaviour of the 28th Division in the weeks
8 leading up to the Srebrenica operation, what is your understanding as to
9 what this is referring to?
10 A. I must --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. It's beyond the scope and he's
12 already said he hasn't got into that at all, and we're getting pretty far
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Would you like to comment, Mr. Josse, or
15 would you like to move --
16 MR. JOSSE: Well, in our submission it's a perfectly acceptable
17 question for this expert to deal with. If he doesn't know about it, he
18 will no doubt tell the Trial Chamber, but if he's able to answer as an
19 expert on it then he should able allowed to answer the question.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But when he was answering to a question put to him
21 by Mr. Bourgon earlier and as to whether his report was limited or
22 restricted in any way, he did explain that it was. I'm not going any
23 further because otherwise we will have to go back to private session.
24 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest Mr. McCloskey is right and that
1 you can proceed on to your next question. We have evidence anyway on
2 what had been taking place.
3 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Could I have a moment, please.
4 Q. When you read this document, did you take the view technically or
5 even perhaps as a matter of gut instinct that there was anything illegal
6 about it?
7 A. On the contrary. When I read it, I thought there was nothing
8 illegal about this document. Again the point that I was trying to make
9 for my case was the fact that there was very good communication between
10 the Main Staff, the Drina Corps, and the brigade; and this was a good
11 example to portray the fact that those communication were -- were there,
12 but beside that I found nothing in this order that would mean anything or
13 anything illegal. I mean, to me this is the kind of order when we
14 were -- when I was, for example, with the 4th brigade in Germany
15 would practice. So there's nothing wrong with the way it's written.
16 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much. I have nothing else.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau, have you changed your mind?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that microphone is not working. I would
20 suggest use the other one.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm fully aware that this goes
22 beyond the scope of the examination of this witness, of his testimony,
23 but I only have a few questions to ask the witness that derive from the
24 questions just asked by my colleague.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, go ahead. Yes, Mr. Josse.
1 MR. JOSSE: We could perhaps go through the normal procedure of
2 knowing what they are, so that we're in a position to deal with --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's -- she -- she previously said
4 she did not have any cross-examination, and then when she heard your
5 questions she now wishes to cross-examine the witness. So I don't think
6 we're going to classify it --
7 MR. JOSSE: Procedurally I presumably then have the right to ask
8 any questions that arise from what she has asked.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's not make it complicated.
10 MR. JOSSE: Well.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not the case. She could have gone before
12 you and you would have gone after. The only thing is that these
13 questions did not occur to her mind before you put yours.
14 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'm quite keen to establish that now, Your
15 Honour, and I --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Let's proceed, Mr. Josse.
17 MR. JOSSE: If the Court thinks at the moment I'm making a
18 mountain out of a molehill, I'll sit down.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.
20 MR. JOSSE: Okay.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you think you will finish then before the break?
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
1 Q. [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a moment. We haven't received interpretation.
3 Could you repeat your question, Ms. Fauveau, please.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Yes, I will repeat my question because the interpretation was not
6 provided. We're looking at this exhibit, P45. You said that this fell
7 within the purview of an operations officer.
8 A. [Interpretation] Yes. I just wanted to specify one thing. This
9 type of order was drafted by the operations section of an HQ. I don't
10 know if you see the slight distinction between an HQ. You have several
11 branches, several sections, and the operations sections would draft that
12 type of order.
13 Q. Can you explain why the chief of that section, of the operations
14 section did not sign this order? Why?
22 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I just want to clarify my last question because I think there is
16 a misunderstanding. Do you know what the function was, the position of
17 the order was who signed this order what section what branch did he
18 belong to?
19 A. I will have to check my documents to give you an answer. When I
20 read these documents, it was not really relevant for me to find out whose
21 section this person belonged to because for me this is a document
22 emanating from the Main Staff.
23 Q. Because my question was not why there was no written --
24 handwritten signature. My question was whether this officer was not the
25 operations officer put his name on this order. That was my question.
1 A. Here you seem to suggest -- suggest two thing. First of all, it
2 was the most senior office at this time at the Main Staff; or secondly,
3 second possibility, this person may have in some way participated in the
4 drafting of this document. These are the two options I see, I can
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Haynes, are you cross-examining the
9 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I am, but I suspect after the break.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I just wanted to make sure.
11 We'll have a break of 25 minutes.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
17 Q. Colonel Landry, I only have a few questions for you, and so that
18 you understand my perspective, I represent now General Pandurevic. So
19 you will appreciate the direction I'm coming from. I'd like to start,
20 please, if I can by asking you to focus on the morning of the 12th of
21 July of 1995 and the situation in the Zvornik Brigade. I don't want to
22 repeat what is in your report or what you have already said in evidence,
23 but at that stage the information available to the command of the Zvornik
24 Brigade was that there was a looming danger from the column of the 28th
25 Division and the intentions of the 2nd Corps of the Bosnian army at its
1 front. Would you agree with that?
2 A. [In English] Yes, I would agree with that.
3 Q. Did your research into this case involve you in any discovery as
4 to the movement of Colonel Pandurevic on the 12th and 13th of July?
5 A. No. The only time that I was involved, that I saw the name of --
6 at that time of Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic was the way that -- the
7 testimony that I had portrayed. So I made no other research to -- to see
8 beside the fact that I knew that he was away on a special operation with
9 additional resources coming from the brigade.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Bourgon.
11 MR. BOURGON: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. President. I don't believe
12 we're in private session.
13 MR. HAYNES: We aren't yet. I'm watching it very carefully.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So far I have no problem --
15 MR. HAYNES: I felt a slight twitch at the response and perhaps
16 it would be safer if we went into private session.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I felt the same twitch.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't felt it as yet, but --
19 MR. HAYNES: I'll restrain myself from responding to that one.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's -- let's be cautious and go into private
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 26321-26325 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 MR. HAYNES:
15 Q. You observe in your report that one of the conditions of the
16 Zvornik Brigade was the very few professional officers that it had; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct but I was never able to qualify few. What do
19 you mean by few? And as I said to -- I said that because of the brigade
20 was static and because of its composition, which was mainly part --
21 mainly coming from the inhabitants of the Zvornik region, I said as I
22 have had the chance to observe when I was in Bosnian, that when you do
23 command the same men and operate with the same staff and the same officer
24 over a long period of time, there's a level of proficiency which
25 eventually comes to life and looking at the fact that the headquarter on
1 numerous occasion was able to function without the presence of his deputy
2 commander and of his commander, that more or less tell me that definitely
3 there was proficient officer and proficient staff to be able to do the
5 Q. Taking as an example the chief of staff, Major Obrenovic, we have
6 evidence that at the time he became chief of staff he was 28 years of age
7 and a 1st class captain. Is that the sort of seniority and rank you
8 would expect to find a chief of staff in a NATO brigade?
9 A. During the last world war the Canadian has division commander at
10 that age. So when the situation comes to the fact that you need to take
11 what able people that you have, usually you select the one that are the
12 most -- the more able to do the job. And as I said, I mean, this
13 conflict had been on for numerous year within the same environment. It's
14 not like if the brigade as such had to be -- had to move. The brigade
15 was static. So -- so to my reading and my knowledge of what I've seen in
17 though you don't have all the talented or the staff qualified people that
18 would be normally required if the brigade would have been called to do
19 all the things the brigade normally does. Sorry for the long answer.
20 Q. No, no, no. I'm very grateful. Thank you, Colonel Landry.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. That brings us back to you, now,
22 Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, and we should probably
24 stay in private session.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Your choice. We are in open session at the moment,
1 so we need to go into private session.
2 Let's go into private session.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 26329-26370 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So quite contrary to my expectations we've managed
6 to finish your testimony here today; so you don't have to return on
7 Monday, which was the preoccupation of everyone here, having to keep you
8 here over the weekend.
9 On behalf of the Tribunal, I with wish to thank you very much for
10 having come over and enlighten us on this subject matter. On behalf of
11 everyone present here, I also wish you a safe journey back home.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: And every success in your career.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, documents.
18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. All I have for documents
19 on the list which was provided to the Trial Chamber, 3D409, the military
20 expert report dated 30 April 2008
21 3D410, Annex B to the record 3D411, and Annex C to the report 3D412.
22 Lastly, as indicated at the beginning of the testimony of the witness, a
23 document comprising errors in translation of expert report by of
24 Remi Landry under 3D504. Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Mr. McCloskey, do you
1 object to any of these documents.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: No objections from the other parties, I suppose.
4 Thank you, they are also admitted when we say the military expert report
5 since it is in two versions in French which is the original and we also
6 have the English translation, Madam Registrar you need to decide whether
7 they will have the same number or whether we distinguish between the
8 French and the English. I don't know what's best for you.
9 THE REGISTRAR: We can give them the same number.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse, you have no documents, I suppose.
11 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour. But since I'm on my feet, they need
12 to be under seal those reports I rather think.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you for pointing that out.
14 MR. JOSSE: But we have no documents.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We were taking that for granted.
16 MR. JOSSE: I'm sure. The document I cross-examined upon has
17 long since been in the evidence.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. The same applies to you, Mr. Haynes, no
20 MR. HAYNES: I'm sorry, no. I didn't have my ears on.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Ms. Fauveau. Thank you. So that
22 brings to an end the testimony of Colonel Landry.
23 Now, one moment, because in the meantime -- yes, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, to let you know that regarding the
25 65 ter motion of the Borovcanin team we have no objection to those three
1 witnesses, and we have asked, if possible, that they could be put towards
2 the end of their -- of their case to give us a little more time.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And I take it you have come to an agreement with
4 Mr. Lazarevic with the Defence team --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- on that.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we've informed them of that, and -- and have
8 been talking to them.
9 We are objecting to the protective measures in -- but we'd like
10 it that they -- it's 4DW20, but unless when you speak to them there's
11 indications that we may, you know, obviously change our mind depending on
12 what the witness says.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: If I may interrupt you. When is that particular
14 witness due? Do you know? Is he amongst the first ones or in other
15 words does this need -- require immediate attention or --
16 MR. GOSNELL: Your Honour, I believe that we have him scheduled
17 for November, so it's not imminent.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's fine. Thank you. Yes, Mr. McCloskey
19 there was the third and last motion.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. The 92 bis, we would like to get that to
21 you all by Friday, next Friday. We should be able to take a look at it.
22 There's some medical things and some more lengthy material.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's fair enough.
24 Now, before we -- yes, Mr. Bourgon.
25 MR. BOURGON: There is a further matter, Mr. President. Since we
1 have time to do it today which I think would be a good thing, I would
2 however need to go into private session.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 26375-26378 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, please mark the 6th of November when we were
15 scheduled to sit. However, we have been asked by another Trial Chamber
16 to swap dates, asking us -- asking us not to sit at all on the 6th of
17 November because they have a special witness that would require to
18 testify the whole day here. So we have come to an agreement with that
19 Trial Chamber, which is the Gotovina Trial Chamber, and on the 6th of
20 November there will be no sitting in this -- in this case.
21 Instead, on the 4th of November, two days before, they will not
22 be sitting and we will be sitting on an extended basis. In other words,
23 we start at 9.00 in the morning, but we don't finish at quarter to 2.00,
24 we will finish later. We will tell you the exact arrangement, what time
25 we will finish, in due course.
1 The other thing I wanted to tell you is that we need another two
2 days ourselves to organise things considering the progress that we have
3 registered so far, and it will further accommodate you in finding time to
4 go through the documents that you have been complaining about, and there
5 will be no sitting on the 10th and on the 11th of November. On the 10th
6 and the 11th of November. So we will not be sitting on the 6th but will
7 be sitting on the 7th and then you have the weekend, and you also have
8 the 10th and the 11th. All right? I'm telling you this so that you take
9 note of it and adjust your schedule accordingly.
10 We stand adjourned until Monday at 9.00 in the morning.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day
13 of September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.