Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26865

 1                           Thursday, 9 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Pandurevic not present]

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, everybody.  And good morning to you,

 8     Madam Registrar, if you are not included amongst the "everybody."  Could

 9     you call the case, please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

11     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.  For the record today’s accused

13     Pandurevic is absent.  We were informed beforehand of his absence and

14     waiver is in our hands.  This will apply for today and tomorrow, if I

15     remember well.

16             Prosecution today is represented by Mr. McCloskey and

17     Mr. Vanderpuye.  There's no one else I think.  From amongst the Defence

18     teams I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Haynes.

19     And Mr. Josse.

20             Professor, good morning to you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good morning.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm sorry we had to keep you here another day.

23     We'll soon finish with you and then you can go home to your family.

24     Mr. Vanderpuye, good morning to you, if you could conclude your

25     cross-examination, please.

Page 26866

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

 2     good morning, Your Honours, good morning to my colleagues.

 3                           WITNESS:  MLADEN BAJAGIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:  [Continued]

 6        Q.   And good morning to you, Dr. Bajagic.  If I could have please, 65

 7     ter 3793 in e-court.  While that's loading, doctor, I had asked you a

 8     series of questions yesterday concerning a report that was written by Mr.

 9     Borovcanin dated 30th June, and I think the second one was 1 July.  I

10     want to show you this report which was written on the -- well, it's

11     written actually on the 30th of June, and the document number or the

12     dispatch number is 113/95.  Now, you can see in this document that it

13     reports or it was directed to the police staff in Pale, police forces

14     staff in Vogosca and Janja special police brigade.  What it reports here,

15     if you can see that in the copy on the right, is it reports on the 29th

16     of June, a combat group comprised of the 4th special police detachment

17     7th special police detachment, Kajman police detachment, Serbian MUP,

18     along with the VRS offensive forces launched an attack in Lucevik

19     facility, which is under the enemy's control and is of extreme importance

20     for the control of the Trnovo-Sarajevo road.  It goes on to report about

21     combat, if you look down in the English version it's in the third

22     paragraph, and I think it should correspond with the version in B/C/S as

23     well, but in any event, you can see that the beginning of the paragraph

24     you find the date 6/29, June 29th, 1995.  In any event, it reports there

25     that during combats on the 29th of June, two members of the special

Page 26867

 1     police detachment from the 4th and 7th and two members of the Serbian MUP

 2     were wounded.

 3             We go to the next page in the English, I think it's near the

 4     bottom of the page in the B/C/S version, you'll see that he reports,

 5     "Given the additional PJP forces, given that the additional PJP forces

 6     had been deployed in the previous days following the break-through of the

 7     VRS lines towards Trnovo, we are now trying to restore the previous

 8     status of the zone of responsibility of the police.  Six PJP companies

 9     are now being engaged and three companies were holding the line 20 days

10     ago."

11             I asked you some questions I think -- well, yesterday for

12     certain, regarding your assessment of whether or not Mr. Borovcanin is

13     commanding these particular units.  In light of what you have seen in

14     this document, does that help you in any way to determine his position in

15     respect of those units, and as concerns this report?

16        A.   I have read the document carefully, as I did yesterday.  Towards

17     the bottom it says Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy commander of the SBP.

18     Therefore, Mr. Borovcanin sent this report to three addressees.  From

19     this it still cannot be seen whether he is commanding all of the units

20     mentioned herein.  For me, it can also mean that he is only commanding

21     the parts of the special police brigade that were in that area rather

22     than all of the units mentioned in their letter.  Based on that, I can't

23     see from the document that he is actually in command of all the units

24     referred to.  However, I can make a presumption, with a degree of

25     certainty, that the police detachments mentioned that are part of the

Page 26868

 1     Republika Srpska special police brigade that he is in command of those.

 2     That would be my answer.

 3        Q.   All right, Doctor.  If I could have in e-court, please, 65 ter

 4     57.  All right.  This is an order, if you look at the bottom it's signed

 5     by staff commander Tomislav Kovac.  I think we mentioned him yesterday.

 6     It is directed to the special police brigade, staff of the Trnovo police

 7     forces command, staff of the Vogosca police forces command, et cetera.

 8     You can read it, it's on the screen.

 9             In particular, you can see from this document that in paragraph

10     or point number 3 that Ljubomir Borovcanin and deputy commander of the

11     special police brigade is designated as the commander of the MUP units,

12     and in paragraph 2 you can see the MUP units under whose command he is --

13     whose command he is to assume.  And that consists of the 2nd police

14     detachment from Sekovici, you see that, 1st Company PJP unit of the

15     Zvornik, and then it says mixed company of joint RSK and Serbian RS MUP

16     forces from the -- and a company of the training camp from Jahorina.  In

17     fact, you refer to this order in your report.  You agree this report puts

18     Mr. Borovcanin in command of those units; right?

19        A.   It is obvious from the document, from this order issued by deputy

20     minister or staff commander of the police forces at the headquarters, it

21     is clear from the letter that Mr. Borovcanin was to assume command over

22     the units referred to.

23        Q.   Okay.  And per this order, you can see also that it directs

24     Mr. Borovcanin as unit commander to make contact with the corps Chief of

25     Staff General Krstic.  That is the order; right?

Page 26869

 1        A.   Yes, that is what it says, with General Krstic.

 2        Q.   And as per this order, then, Mr. Borovcanin were to have followed

 3     it, he would be under the -- under the command of General Krstic; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Precisely so.  Once in the field he was to get in touch with

 6     General Krstic, he was to report to him and as of that moment

 7     resubordination takes place.

 8        Q.   If I could have in e-court please, 65 ter 3789.  Okay.  As you

 9     can see, this is a document the Prosecution has recently identified and

10     it is dated 13 July 1995.  Now, I don't think you can see it on your --

11     if you go down on the B/C/S version, you can see that this is a document

12     that is type signed Ljubisa Borovcanin, it is dated the 13th of July

13     1995, and its number is 284/95.  This particular report it is directed to

14     the Pale police staff and the special police brigade Janja.  What it does

15     is it recounts events during the course of the day, it says that the MUP

16     combat unit composed of the 2nd detachment, the MUP company of the

17     Zvornik PJP and a mixed company of the Janja MUP is engaged in offensive

18     actions from the direction of Zuti Most towards Potocari, at 5.30 we

19     sealed off the checkpoint from Zuti Most and we then proceeded along the

20     road towards Potocari.  It's clear as per the previous order that

21     Mr. Borovcanin is in command of these units; isn't that right?

22        A.   If you are referring to that order, then yes.

23        Q.   I'm referring to the 10 July order from Tomislav Kovac that I

24     just referred to.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26870

 1        Q.   And in this particular 13 July report --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

 3             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise to interrupt my colleague, really, he

 4     is cross-examining, it's not fair maybe but I would just like to have a

 5     clear record on this.  Here we have in paragraph 1 mixed company of MUP

 6     Janja which does not correspond to the previous document and also units

 7     which were mentioned in previous document in relation to MUP of Republika

 8     Srpska Krajina and Serbia are not mentioned in this one so just to have a

 9     clear record on this.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, do you wish to comment on that,

11     Mr. Vanderpuye.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I do apologise, Mr. President, I don't have the

13     transcript running in front of me.  I was looking at the document as I

14     was reading it.  And I can't find it right now so I'll just read it

15     again.  This document that is the 13th of July, speaks about a mixed

16     company of the Janja MUP, that's what the translation I have says.  The

17     order from 10 July speaks about a mixed company of joint RSK Serbian and

18     RS MUP and a company from the training camp of Jahorina.  My question to

19     the expert is, is it clear from this document that he is in command of

20     these units, as per the previous order?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, fair enough, fair enough.  But it's clear now

22     while it wasn't that clear before, Mr. Lazarevic was right.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I appreciate the intervention.

24        Q.   Do you understand the question now, sir?  Are you able to answer

25     it?

Page 26871

 1        A.   I believe we understood each other.

 2        Q.   So you don't have -- in other words, based upon what we've just

 3     said now your answer hasn't changed any, has it?

 4        A.   Mr. Borovcanin commanded those units referred to in the order of

 5     the 10th of July, 1995.  I can't place these two texts on the screen to

 6     see whether the units mentioned in one are all referred to in the other.

 7     In the first one we have the first company of the PJP and then we have

 8     Janja here.  I don't think it appeared in the previous order, but if I

 9     had both documents on the screen, I'd be able to tell you.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, Your Honour?

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can move.  Let's proceed.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well.  Thank you.

13        Q.   With respect to this document, that is the 13 July 1995 document,

14     284/95, it is directed to the Pale police staff.  Can you tell us what

15     that is?

16        A.   As we can see, it was sent to three addressees, Pale police

17     staff, Vogosca police staff and the special police brigade in Janja.

18     Three addressees.  I think this is a very short information letting them

19     know where the individual units are.  It is a document sent by Mr.

20     Borovcanin informing people that those units were there and there at that

21     location.  If there was a mixed company from Janja in the area where he

22     was, it was only natural that he would let the special police brigade in

23     Janja know.  It is a document by way of which he is informing whether the

24     individual units of the police are and how they fared in combat that day.

25     Nothing more than that.

Page 26872

 1        Q.   All right.  And the police staff, the Pale police staff, who is

 2     that composed of?  I mean, what is it and who comprises it?

 3        A.   We would have to go back to the document.  I can't tell you off

 4     the cuff.  I don't know what the composition of the staff is.  I can't

 5     memorize so many names.  In any case, it is a police staff of the

 6     Ministry of the Interior.  It can be nothing else.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, you can see in this report, and although it's

 8     unclear to you whether or not Mr. Borovcanin command all of the units

 9     that are in it, but if he is not commanding all of the units that are in

10     it, he is certainly reporting about units that he doesn't command.

11     That's fair to say; right?

12        A.   One could say so.

13        Q.   And let me ask --

14        A.   Not reporting but informing, I'd say.

15        Q.   With respect to the units that he is in command of, that would be

16     a report, wouldn't it?

17        A.   Yes.  We know because of the order of the 10th of July as of the

18     moment when he was reporting to General Krstic, I think it was General

19     Krstic, as of that moment, he was resubordinated to the unit of the RS

20     army in whose area of responsibility he was with his unit.  In that

21     regard, he is duty-bound to submit mandatory reports to that structure

22     rather than to the Ministry of the Interior.  That is why I said that he

23     was informing by this document, rather than reporting.

24        Q.   It is clear then, that he is duty-bound to report on those units

25     that he commands as per the rules; right?

Page 26873

 1        A.   I think that in the instruction on regular, urgent and

 2     statistical reporting, there are no situations foreseen that would cover

 3     resubordination.  I don't remember such provisions in the instruction of

 4     the Ministry of the Interior on the regular, urgent and statistical

 5     reporting.  I don't think it contains provisions which could reflect this

 6     situation.  Hence, I can only speculate on his obligations and duties.

 7     Perhaps the rules were placed ad hoc, but I did not come across that

 8     while drafting my report.

 9        Q.   You couldn't find a rule that obligates the commander of MUP

10     units that are subordinated to the VRS to report on their status to the

11     army or to the Ministry of the Interior?  You couldn't find a rule?

12        A.   I am familiar with the instruction as regards informing and

13     reporting within the MUP.  Any document that would refer to a situation

14     like this is something I have not come across and read, unfortunately.

15     Had I been able to, perhaps I would have been able to answer this

16     differently.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you, does the concept of unity of command, does

18     that apply to MUP combat forces?

19        A.   I don't know what unity of command are you referring to.  I'm not

20     clear on the term.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I'm sorry.  In which circumstances, that would be

23     a fair question to the witness.  But still he didn't understand the

24     question, so ...

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

Page 26874

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If the witness knows, and the specific

 2     circumstances I'm talking about are combat forces, combat forces of the

 3     MUP.  I think I did state that in my question.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, let's proceed.  Go ahead.  He needs to

 5     answer the question when I said let's proceed.  Are you in a position to

 6     answer that question, Professor?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  If we are talking about the

 8     other parts of the units of the Ministry of the Interior which are

 9     independent in combat as part of the armed forces they must observe the

10     instruction on all sorts of reporting.  There's no doubt about that.  So

11     if we are talking about units of the Ministry of the Interior outside of

12     this unit, they will have to abide by the instruction of the Ministry of

13     the Interior about urgent, statistical and occasional reporting.  Urgent

14     means by dispatches, occasional reporting, statistical reporting, all

15     sorts of reporting that have to be abided by.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:

17        Q.   Thank you for that, sir.  You were asked a series of questions on

18     your direct examination yesterday concerning the rules on internal

19     organisation of the MUP.  I wanted to put to you some questions regarding

20     that, if I may.

21             Under Article 51 of the rules on internal organisation of the

22     MUP, that was 4D144.  It is clear that the general obligations of members

23     or employees of the MUP, it is that they are entrusted or obliged to

24     carry out thoroughly, orderly and in a timely fashion, meeting high

25     standards and responsibly, their duties and tasks in a manner that is in

Page 26875

 1     accordance with all legal and other regulations as well as the

 2     instructions received from the minister.  Is that right?

 3        A.   I suppose if you are reading, but I don't have anything in front

 4     of me in an electronic form.  I can't see the document.

 5        Q.   If you would like me to put it up, I'll put it up there for you.

 6     It's 4D144.  There is no English, I'll have to have him read it into the

 7     record.  I understood that my colleagues were going to provide a fully

 8     translated version of the rules.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can survive that.  Let's proceed.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Is this the fully translated version?  In any

11     event, in the B/C/S version it's page -- I believe it's page 32 in

12     e-court.  5705 is the ERN number so we can page forward I think three

13     pages.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is 5702.  Okay.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:

16        Q.   Article 51 is at the bottom of the page -- now it's in the middle

17     of the page.  If you can take a look at that and read it into the record?

18        A.   I see it.  Article 51:  "An employee is duty-bound to perform

19     duties and tasks that he is entrusted with in time at a high quality

20     level, economically, with responsibility and in keeping with the legal

21     and other regulations as well as the instructions provided by the

22     ministry."  Yes, I am clear on this article.

23        Q.   And that applies to all members of the Ministry of the Interior,

24     doesn't it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26876

 1        Q.   All right.  And with respect to the law on the internal

 2     organisation of the MUP, that was 4D172, Article 15 of that document

 3     provides that the protection of citizens' lives and personal safety as

 4     well as the prevention and detection of criminal offences a

 5     responsibility to be discharged by members of the MUP.  And that's among

 6     other things, would you agree with that?

 7        A.   Absolutely.  I don't see the article on the screen but I agree

 8     with it.  This article sums up and defines the overall function of the

 9     police.

10        Q.   And that article didn't change with respect to the update of the

11     law in March 1994 or subsequently; right?  I see we have it in e-court,

12     Article 15, starts with the public security service carries out

13     administrative, specialized and other activities, and if you continue

14     down you can see that among those responsibilities concern --

15     administrative responsibilities concerns the protection of citizens'

16     lives and personal safety and the prevention and detection of criminal

17     offences.  You see that, right?

18        A.   Yes, this is absolutely correct, I'm very familiar with Article

19     15.

20        Q.   Very well.  So you know that it didn't change in 1994?

21        A.   I don't see how this article could undergo any major changes.  It

22     has to remain the same.

23        Q.   All right.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Article 41 of the same law on the internal organisation of the

Page 26877

 1     MUP, that provides for an oath or a pledge of authorised officials of the

 2     Ministry of the Interior; right?  You find that on page 6 in the English

 3     and page 6 in the B/C/S.  English if you look down at the bottom of the

 4     page, you can see it begins with the sentence "The text of the formal

 5     statement reads:"  It provides:  "I hereby pledge to execute the duties

 6     of an authorised official in a conscientious and responsible manner, to

 7     adhere to the constitution and the law, to protect with all my strength

 8     the constitutionally established order of the republic, the rights,

 9     freedoms and security, and to carry out these and other activities and

10     tasks of an authorised other officials even when the execution of such

11     tasks places my life in danger."

12        A.   Yes, I can see it and I'm familiar with this text, I know of it,

13     I know that it is part of this law.

14        Q.   And it is required to be undertaken and discharged by authorised

15     members of the Ministry of the Interior; right?

16        A.   Precisely so.

17        Q.   You also were asked some questions as concerns the constitution,

18     and in particular you read part of Article 68 of the constitution, I

19     think --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you know that Article 68 provides, it provides for the

22     protection of human rights, national freedom and equality,

23     constitutionality and legality?

24        A.   Precisely so.

25        Q.   That was provided for in the constitution of the Serb republic of

Page 26878

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina and also with respect to the constitution of the

 2     Republika Srpska; is that right?  You have to answer on the record.

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.  Correct.

 4        Q.   And in Article 51 of that constitution, it refers to what is

 5     called the constitutional order.  I refer you to that because the oath

 6     refers to the protection of the constitutional order, and Article 5 of

 7     the constitution defines the constitutional order in part that it's based

 8     on the protection of ethnic groups and other minorities.  You recall

 9     that; right?

10        A.   I know it's there, but I cannot remember off the cuff which

11     article it is.  It's impossible for me to bear all these extensive

12     documents in my memory, but I know that it's part of the constitution.

13        Q.   All right.  Well, let me put it up on the screen so you can see

14     it.  It's 4D194.  I think it might be right on page 1.  Page 2 in the

15     English, I think.  If you look at Article 5, the very last point it says

16     the protection of ethnic groups and other minorities.  Article 5 reads:

17     "Constitutional order of the republic is based on the following," and it

18     lists a number of things.  You see that; right?

19        A.   Yes, I can see it and I have read it.

20        Q.   All right.  And let me just point out the very first item on

21     this.  What that reads is:  "The constitutional order of the republic is

22     based on," and the very first item is "the guarantee and protection of

23     human freedom and rights with respect to international standards."  You

24     see that; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26879

 1        Q.   And the Geneva Conventions would be considered international

 2     standards as referred to in this document; right?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   Let me just refer you back to Article 4 of the law on internal

 5     organisation of the MUP.  4D172 in e-court.  It's on page 6 in the B/C/S

 6     and page 6 in the English.  Article 42 provides -- I wish we could blow

 7     it up a little bit.  "Authorised officials must carry out activities and

 8     tasks related to the protection of the constitutional order," as I've

 9     just read it to you.  "... protection of national lives, personal

10     security, the prevention of criminal offences and capture of their

11     perpetrators as well as activities and tasks related to maintaining law

12     and order at all times, regardless of whether they are on duty and

13     whether they have been explicitly assigned a particular task."  You see

14     that; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   And all authorised members of the MUP are obligated to comply

17     with this rule?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no further questions for you, Doctor,

20     thank you very much.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you Mr. Vanderpuye.  Is there redirect,

22     Mr. Lazarevic.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Indeed, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long?

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I believe that it will be like 25

Page 26880

 1     to 30 minutes.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning Dr. Bajagic again.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   I would like to start my re-examination with last things first,

 7     i.e., with the questions that my learned friend Mr. Vanderpuye put to you

 8     a minute ago and showed you some relevant paragraphs about the Ministry

 9     of the Interior and all these relevant paragraphs that he quoted to you

10     represent the duties as well as the authorities of the authorised

11     officials of the Ministry of the Interior under the law?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   My question about these paragraphs is as follows:  When a member

14     of the Ministry of the Interior performs his regular duties and tasks, he

15     has all the authorities that we have just had an opportunity to look at?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Let's move on to a different situation now.  It is a situation in

18     which a member of the Ministry of the Interior participates as a

19     resubordinated member within a unit of the Ministry of the Interior, in

20     combat, would he still have the same authorities that are prescribed by

21     the law or not?

22        A.   No.  He cannot have standard authorities if he is resubordinated

23     and participates in combat under the command of the army.

24        Q.   In other words, while there is combat going on and while the unit

25     of the Ministry of the Interior is participating in combat, the officials

Page 26881

 1     of the Ministry of the Interior do not have the same authorities as they

 2     would normally have?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  First of all I object to the question.  It's

 6     clearly leading.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Too late.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The other issue is with respect to this

 9     particular -- it's unclear what particular authorities and obligations my

10     colleague is referring to in either the question or the answer.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Do you wish to comment, Mr. Lazarevic?

12             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I don't think.  I was speaking about authorities

13     that police officers have in regular situation and to compare it with the

14     situation in combat activities when resubordinating and when

15     participating in combat activities.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  We leave it in your hands, Mr. Lazarevic, to expand

18     on this to make it a little bit more clear.

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  If I could put one hypothetical question to the

20     witness, I will put it and Your Honours will decide whether this question

21     is fair.  Of course my colleague are allowed to intervene if they find

22     it --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are almost inviting him to object beforehand.

24             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

25        Q.   [No interpretation].

Page 26882

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We are not hearing the translation.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, we haven't got translation.

 3             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Professor Bajagic, let's take into account the following

 5     hypothetical situation.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Are you now receiving interpretation, can you follow me?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Professor Bajagic, let's take, for example, an inspector working

11     in crime prevention service in the security centre in Zvornik, for

12     example.  His main task would be -- what would it be, could you tell me

13     what would be such an inspector's main task?

14        A.   To detect and apprehend perpetrators of crime, of general crime,

15     it would rather depend on the particular area he works on.

16        Q.   And in performing these tasks and duties, what would be his

17     authorities under the law?

18        A.   He would have all the authorities that we have already listed

19     from the law of the interior issuing warning, issuing orders,

20     enforcement, the use of firearms, all such authorities.

21        Q.   Very well then.  So these authorities are such when he is on duty

22     and when he is off duty, wouldn't that be correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Let's now look at a situation in which the same inspector has

25     become a member of a special police unit and/or a PJP and becomes a

Page 26883

 1     member of a special company of the police, and that special company

 2     participates in combat as a unit resubordinated to the army command.  In

 3     such a situation, would this inspector maintain the same authorities that

 4     he had before?

 5        A.   I heard it loud and clear even before this very detailed question

 6     was put to me.  He would no longer have such authorities.

 7        Q.   For how long?  For how long would he not have such authorities?

 8        A.   Until the moment he returned to his normal position and to the

 9     moment when he performs his normal tasks and duties.

10        Q.   While he participates in combat, does he have an official ID?

11        A.   No, he cannot identify himself as a police member if he

12     participates in combat.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.  I will move on to some other topics that

14     were tackled yesterday.  Yesterday on pages 56 to 62 of the transcript,

15     my learned friend Ostojic asked you something about informing and

16     reporting and he quoted Article 256 of your expert report.  This is

17     Exhibit 4D499, page 66 in B/C/S and pages 67 and 68 in English.  And

18     let's just clarify something --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment.  I need to discuss

20     something with my colleagues.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Before going further I was about to ask the witness

23     to clarify his explanation.  Instead of taking the example of inspector,

24     why don't we just take the example of Mr. Borovcanin.  He was a deputy

25     commander of the special police brigade, and he was designated by

Page 26884

 1     Mr. Kovac to command the several MUP units as we saw earlier and he was

 2     resubordinated to Mr. Krstic.

 3             How is new role of Mr. Borovcanin different from the previous one

 4     in concrete terms?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It is different because my

 6     previous explanation applies to Mr. Borovcanin.  Mr. Borovcanin was

 7     resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska and he no longer had the

 8     same authorities and he could not act on the ground as a policeman,

 9     irrespective of his function as a member of the ministry of the interior

10     for as long as he is resubordinated to somebody.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But he is still in command -- he is in command of

12     those several MUP units, isn't he?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  This is not in dispute, but we are

14     not talking about any police authorities or anything that had to do with

15     that, that we have just spoken about.

16             JUDGE KWON:  While being resubordinated to the VRS, he is also

17     duty-bound to report to the -- his superiors in the MUP as we have seen

18     in one of his reports or information sent to his Pale police staff?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I see we are talking at cross

20     purposes.  When he is resubordinated to the army, Mr. Borovcanin can just

21     be incorporated in the system of informing and reporting of the Army of

22     Republika Srpska, so he does not have to abide by the rules of reporting

23     of the Ministry of the Interior.  He can send interim and urgent reports

24     but he does not have any obligations towards the Ministry of the interior

25     because he is incorporated in the system of the Army Republika Srpska.

Page 26885

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Can we bring up the 65 ter P3789 which is dated 13

 2     of July.  I take it that by that time Mr. Borovcanin was resubordinated

 3     to the VRS?  Professor, do you agree that Mr. Borovcanin was

 4     resubordinated to the VRS by this time?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  At this time he was

 6     resubordinated to the Army Republika Srpska.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Then if you could explain why he sent out this

 8     report to Pale police staff?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although he was resubordinated to

10     the Army Republika Srpska and although he was incorporated in the system

11     and abided by the rules of the Army Republika Srpska, this did not

12     prevent him or prohibit him from sending information to keep abreast of

13     the events of those parts of the Ministry of the Interior in whose area

14     Mr. Borovcanin was deployed.  One thing does not exclude the other.

15     Those two things are not mutually exclusive.  He could still send reports

16     if he so wanted.

17             This was not his obligation.  This is an internal document.  In

18     other words, Mr. Borovcanin wanted to, of his own will, inform certain

19     bodies of the Ministry of the Interior about some developments on the

20     ground that had to do with the ministry's units.  But this did not fall

21     within the system of obligatory reporting.

22             JUDGE KWON:  If I am to say the only difference on the part of

23     Mr. Borovcanin would be that he should follow the order of the VRS

24     superior, am I correct or not?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You probably are.

Page 26886

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Judge Kwon.  Mr. Lazarevic.

 3             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I apologise, I'm trying to fully grasp the answer you've just

 5     provided to Judge Kwon that the only difference as asked by Mr. Kwon was

 6     in the situation of Mr. Borovcanin between his resubordination and the

 7     other situation has to deal with the reporting, but you were also talking

 8     about the authorities.  Is that another difference?

 9        A.   When Mr. Borovcanin is resubordinated to a higher command of VRS

10     unit, he no longer holds the police authorities.  I can support that by

11     an example.

12        Q.   I don't think that would be necessary.

13             JUDGE PROST:  Actually, I would appreciate hearing his example on

14     that point.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Mr. Borovcanin is an authorised

16     official.  He cannot involve himself in collecting information on crimes

17     in the field or about the services of public law and order.  That would

18     seem ridiculous compared to the seriousness of the tasks received when

19     participating in combat as someone who had been resubordinated to the

20     VRS.

21             JUDGE PROST:  So if I understand you correctly, if he came across

22     a situation where in his normal police capacity he might carry out

23     investigative tasks for example, in this context he would be unable to,

24     he would be solely responsible to carry out the orders coming from the

25     VRS; is that correct?

Page 26887

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is responsible to implement only

 2     the orders of the VRS.  That is to say, his superior commander at that

 3     moment.  Nothing else.

 4             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Lazarevic.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Lazarevic, before I give you the

 6     floor, your client wishes to make a statement.  Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN:  Your Honour, I would kindly ask to be

 8     allowed to meet my attorney for a very brief period of time.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, of course.  Of course.

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, maybe if I may suggest we have a

11     break.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  You can suggest it but unfortunately I have an

13     official meeting at 10.30 which cannot be moved so there is no point in

14     taking the break now because I have to be present for this meeting.  So

15     take your time, perhaps if you wish to be accommodated outside the

16     courtroom while we wait and --

17             THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please make your own arrangements, I don't know

19     what you wish to do.

20                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.  I see

22     Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just wondered,

24     because the answer seemed somewhat ambiguous, if my colleague could

25     clarify with this expert if he is suggesting that under the example given

Page 26888

 1     by Judge Kwon if Mr. Borovcanin is resubordinated to the VRS whether or

 2     not he is bound by the same obligations and rules of VRS officers such as

 3     the Geneva Convention as distinguished from other rules.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, very fair question.  If Mr. Lazarevic wishes

 5     to put it.  Yes.

 6             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you don't, we will put it.

 8             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think I can put it but I'm

 9     not quite sure whether this is in the scope of expert report of the VRS

10     rules but I'll put it anyway.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think if going through the details of

12     responsibilities of various officers both in the police force and the

13     military was -- even when they are subject to the military was part of

14     his expertise, this one would fall under the same area.  I mean, there's

15     no doubt about it.  So let's proceed because we are wasting time.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I will put this question in order to clarify the matter.  At the

18     moment of resubordination to the competent command of the VRS is he bound

19     by generally speaking the rules of the military without going into such

20     detail that may not have been the subject of your expert report?

21        A.   Generally speaking, the answer would be yes, although I have to

22     add something.  My expert report has to do with the scope of authority

23     the Ministry of the Interior.  I'm not a lawyer by profession and I'm not

24     competent to study any details that have to do with criminal law or any

25     other body of law, for that matter.  I can only share with you what I

Page 26889

 1     know about certain provisions on disciplinary measures in the Law on

 2     Internal Affairs.  However, I do not dare delve any deeper than that

 3     since I believe I'm not sufficiently competent.

 4        Q.   I believe you said that in general your answer would be yes.  I

 5     don't think that can be found in the transcript.

 6             To go back to what we have started, I will have a few questions

 7     left for you.  At the outset of redirect, I began asking you about

 8     information and representation that you dealt with in paragraph 256 of

 9     your expert report.  It is 4D499, page 66 in the B/C/S and 67 and 68 in

10     the English version.  Let us clarify something.  This part of your report

11     deals with the information and representation as one of the functions of

12     command and control; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   In your expert report, there is a separate part dealing with

15     informing within the MUP; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   Let us have a look at several documents that you saw yesterday as

18     well.  First, P62, the CSB Zvornik dispatch by Dragomir Vasic dated the

19     13th of July 1995.  Do you have that on your screen?

20        A.   I do now.

21        Q.   Could we please zoom in so that the witness could read more

22     easily.  When talking in general about informing within the MUP, you said

23     that it has to be accurate based on the regulations?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   When you look at this dispatch, can you make out at all whether

Page 26890

 1     Mr. Vasic was informing his superiors accurately?

 2        A.   I can see that this is an urgent type of reporting, that is to

 3     say a dispatch.  I cannot offer my judgement on the facts mentioned

 4     therein.

 5        Q.   Let us look at document P61 next, shown to you yesterday as well.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please verify the exhibit

 7     number?

 8             MR. LAZAREVIC:  P61.  Or rather it's P886.  Either of them, it's

 9     the same document, I think.  Yes, that's the one.  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, we were talking about the previous

11     document.  Does the same apply to this second document?

12        A.   Yes.  This is another dispatch as an urgent way of informing.  As

13     for its contents, I cannot offer my opinion.

14        Q.   Since certain facts are mentioned in the document, you cannot

15     know which forces of the MUP the document refers to?

16        A.   Absolutely.  I am not familiar with any facts on the ground and I

17     cannot offer my assessment.

18        Q.   Yesterday, you were asked a few question concerning the procedure

19     of engagement of police units and certain deviations that may have

20     existed in practice.  Could we please see 4D327 next in relation to that.

21             To cut it short, this is a document, as you can see, was sent by

22     the Drina Corps command, document number 03/2-209 dated the 8th of July

23     1995.  It is a regular combat report sent by the Drina Corps command to

24     the Main Staff of the armed forces of the RS; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, I can see that from the header.

Page 26891

 1        Q.   Let us have a look at the next page of the document.

 2             [In English] Can we zoom to paragraph 9 of this document.

 3             [Interpretation] Paragraph 9 bears the title "Requests sent by

 4     the Drina Corps command to the Main Staff."  Based on this document, what

 5     was the request of the Drina Corps command that was sent to the Main

 6     Staff?

 7        A.   They were requesting that in a certain area, via the MUP -- and

 8     they probably had in mind the top of the ministry -- to secure an

 9     engagement of MUP forces in Zvornik that would serve as a reserve force

10     ready to intervene along the endangered axis.  They are asking that the

11     Main Staff get in touch with the Ministry of the Interior.  Under the law

12     it was supposed to be sent to the president first and then to the

13     ministry.  They were requesting for certain MUP forces to be placed under

14     the command of the 1st BPBR, I think it is a brigade, and that such

15     forces should be ready to intervene along the axis.

16        Q.   Which MUP unit does this refer to in particular?  It mentions

17     Zvornik.

18        A.   You mean in slash brackets it says "their 1st Company."

19        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  I will no longer need this document.  The next

20     document you also saw yesterday is P3792.  I apologise, I'll skip this

21     document.  Let's move directly to 4D337.  We saw this order several

22     times.  You also refer to it in paragraphs 191 and 195 of your report

23     where you mention the first PJP company.  Bearing in mind the previous

24     document, was the 1st Company encompassed in this order as well as part

25     of this mixed unit referred to in the order?

Page 26892

 1        A.   Yes.  It is the 1st Company of the PJP of the CJB in Zvornik.

 2     And the same company is referred to in the other document.

 3        Q.   Therefore it is the same unit?

 4        A.   The same unit, yes.  The same part of the unit.

 5        Q.   Let us now go to P62 which is another document we saw already.

 6     Have a look at what units Mr. Vasic is reporting in this document -- is

 7     reporting on in this document.  Can we see the 1st Company there?

 8        A.   We can.  Says that on the 13th of July at about 400 hours the

 9     first PJP company of the Zvornik CJB had contact with a large enemy

10     group.

11        Q.   Therefore, my question is this:  Mr. Vanderpuye from the

12     Prosecutor's Office offered a suggestion yesterday.  Can this lead you to

13     presume that Mr. Vasic was the commander of the 1st Company?  Could such

14     a possibility exist based on this document alone?

15        A.   Well, one could say so but we all know that the 1st Company was

16     not under Dragomir Vasic's command, although he is referring to it in

17     this document.  We know that it was a part of another unit.

18        Q.   Let us now go back to P3792.  You were asked yesterday to

19     explain --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic, can you stay with this

21     document a little longer.  This first PJP company is the part of the

22     unit, MUP unit under the command of Mr. Borovcanin at the time --

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Precisely so.

24             JUDGE KWON:  -- while being resubordinated to the VRS.  Where did

25     Mr. Vasic get this kind of information?  From whom?

Page 26893

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How should I know how he received

 2     information?  But I suppose that as the chief of public security services

 3     centre in Zvornik, and also the commander of the PJP, he needed to be

 4     informed about the deployment of the units that would be under his

 5     command under certain different circumstances.  It is a natural concern

 6     of any chief of police to know where the first companies or any other

 7     unit that falls under the jurisdiction of the PJP Zvornik.  I find this

 8     very logical.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Let me put a bit simpler question, in a layman's

10     term.  If this part of the MUP unit is resubordinated to the VRS and so

11     to speak had become a part of military, why did Mr. Vasic have to report

12     these things to his superior in police at all?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what chief in the

14     Ministry of the Interior would not report something about the losses in

15     one of the parts of the units of the police even if this unit is

16     resubordinated to the VRS.  So if somebody got killed in that unit, it

17     would only be natural for the superior to show concern.  It's a very

18     human concern.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So one can say Mr. Borovcanin is due to report to

20     his superior what had happened in common sense -- for common sensical

21     reasons?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not duty-bound, but it was

23     common sense, as you put it, and it was normal for Mr. Vasic to report

24     that a member was killed.  I don't know where he received his information

25     from but in a situation like this, it is only normal for people to

Page 26894

 1     exchange information of this kind.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We'll continue with this when we reconvene.

 3     The break will be of 30 minutes, please.  Thank you.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I believe that I will have just

 8     like five more minutes.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, I'll have to go back to a document

10     in order to avoid a source of confusion.  This is 4D327.  We just had it

11     in e-court just before the break, so I'd like to have it back if I could,

12     please.

13             Could we please see page 2 of this document, bullet point 9 that

14     we discussed before the break.  When we analysed this bullet point 9, we

15     skipped a part and it says here that due to the possibility of enemy

16     attacks in the northwestern part of the front, particularly from the

17     Kalesija, Kladanj, and Olovo directions, this is the axis that we may

18     have omitted and this is the direction from which the danger may come and

19     then in the last part it says that they would be the reserve forces for

20     the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade on standby to intervene along the

21     endangered axis.  We would like to state this just before -- because of

22     the axis.  Yesterday when Mrs. Fauveau showed you a document about the

23     engagement of the 1st Company on the Kalesija-Kladanj-Olovo axis, this

24     would be the same axis that is mentioned in this document, isn't that

25     correct?

Page 26895

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Very well, and then the next document that I would like us to

 3     look at is 4D323.  We've already spoken about the contents of the

 4     dispatch is, what they should contain and what they should read.

 5     However, this document is interesting for different reasons.  I would

 6     like to look at the second paragraph of this dispatch where it says:  "On

 7     the 6th of July 1995, at 1000 hours enemy units carried out an infantry

 8     attack from the direction of Srebrenica into the Zeleni Jadar sector,

 9     Skelani municipality.  Two VRS soldiers were wounded in the attack."  The

10     last bit is particularly important.  It transpires from this document

11     that Mr. Vasic informs about the wounded VRS soldiers, wouldn't that be

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes, it would.

14        Q.   Of course we know that Mr. Vasic was not the VRS commander.

15     However, he builds into his report information about the VRS soldiers who

16     had been wounded?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   And now I would like to deal with the last topic that I wanted to

19     tackle in my re-examination.  Yesterday you were asked about the possible

20     participation of units from Serbia in combat.  This is on pages 26862,

21     26863, and you were also asked about Mr. Tomislav Kovac.  My learned

22     friend from the Prosecution asked you about Mr. Kovac, who he was and

23     what function he held.  This is on page 26852.

24             You were also asked some follow-up questions about the command

25     relationship with regard to the units who were deployed in the Trnovo

Page 26896

 1     frontline, I'm talking about the Skorpija, the Kajmans and others that

 2     were mentioned.  I am now going to read to you, actually, to show to you

 3     parts of the testimony by Mr. Tomislav Kovac in the Skorpija case, the

 4     case against Skorpija unit members that was heard before the Special

 5     Court in Belgrade.  The record was made on the 3rd of July 2006, it was

 6     disclosed in June 2007 and served as the basis for stipulation between

 7     the Defence and the Prosecution with this regard.  I would first like to

 8     read to you a very short excerpt from the testimony of Kovac which is on

 9     page 32/86 dated 3rd July 2006.

10             I apologise, first of all, I'm going to quote from page 34.  The

11     judge says -- Mr. [Indiscernible], presiding judge, he says the

12     following:  Here Commander Medic whom we heard, here he says that the

13     commander of that unit himself, he is the commander of that unit.  "I

14     don't have any superiors there but General Milosevic as the commander of

15     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps."  It transpires from this that Mr. Medic

16     says that his only commander was General Milosevic from the

17     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, wouldn't that be correct?

18        A.   If that's what it says in the record from the trial, then it --

19     that's correct.

20        Q.   And just one more quote with this regard, this is on page 32/86.

21     Witness Tomislav Kovac says the following:  "I've already explained that

22     on many occasions before some other courts simply the lack of precision

23     in leading this unit as the MUP of Serbia by Sinisa Satinovic [phoen],

24     the others did that on purpose, they planted the MUP of Serbia because of

25     allegedly a moral situation, the fighters down there then were under the

Page 26897

 1     impression is that we were assisted by the MUP Serbia which was not

 2     correct.  They did not assist us, Milosevic actually blocked us and led

 3     us to a pit fall and to defeat and that is the truth.  Obviously

 4     Milosevic referred to herein as Slobodan Milosevic rather than General

 5     Milosevic.  We want to avoid any confusion."

 6             Now that I've just quoted back to you some parts of Mr. Kovac's

 7     testimony in the Skorpija case, I do know that you do not know the facts

 8     but would this be a possible explanation as to what units these were,

 9     whose units these were and under whose command they acted in June 1995 at

10     Trnovo frontline.

11        A.   Bearing in mind Mr. Kovac's function at the time as the deputy

12     Minister of the Interior, I would not doubt his claims.  I'm sure that he

13     was aware of the situation and he obviously adhered to his statement

14     given before the Court, and that would be my answer to your question sir.

15        Q.   I suppose that you know as much to know that every statement in

16     court is given under oath in Serbia?

17        A.   I don't have any personal experience of that.  I've never had

18     anything to do with Serbian courts.  My first experience with any court

19     is with the Tribunal here, but I know that you have to take an oath

20     before starting a testimony.  I did the same here.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bajagic, I have

22     no further questions for you.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

24                           Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE KWON:  Professor Bajagic, I'm asking this question because

Page 26898

 1     you are an expert in police.  If a police officer while in service

 2     committed a crime, is he to be tried in civilian court or a special court

 3     like military court?

 4        A.   A member of the Ministry of the Interior who commits a crime

 5     under normal circumstances would be tried in civilian court.  I don't

 6     know of any special court that would deal only with members of the

 7     Ministry of the Interior.  It would be a civilian court.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  What do you mean by normal circumstances, under

 9     normal circumstances?  For example, in special circumstances such as the

10     case of resubordination, is that police officer tried to be -- is to be

11     tried by the military court or by the civilian court?

12        A.   If we are talking about resubordination, we said that they no

13     longer have a police authorities, they are regarded as members of the

14     army and I believe that it would be military courts who would be in

15     charge of such MUP members.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do you think you can find the reference for your

17     statement in the rules or the laws?

18        A.    I did not analyse any documents of the sort.  I did not deal

19     with the structures of court or criminal law in my report, but I'm sure

20     that there are documents but I wouldn't know anything about them, I

21     wouldn't be able to quote any.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Maybe I can just assist.  We have another expert

23     witness who deals precisely with these topics.  This is his only topic of

24     his expert report.  This is not the topic for this expert so you will

25     have the opportunity to hear all these relevant laws and all the relevant

Page 26899

 1     documents which that deal with the topic of the criminal responsibility

 2     in all these circumstances.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think in relation

 6     to two issues that were raised by Justice Kwon we have a couple of

 7     questions that I think that are integral and responsive to the issues

 8     that were raised on the redirect examination.  I would ask permission to

 9     put to the witness just a couple of questions.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't want to interrupt, but I think having heard

11     Mr. Lazarevic, even ad hoc expert is going to come over to testify on

12     these things.  What are your questions?

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have two questions in particular.  One has to

14     do with the responsibilities of Mr. Borovcanin in particular with respect

15     to his presence or observation of crimes that are occurring during his

16     resubordination into the VRS.  The second has do with his obligations

17     under the rules of conduct of the VRS or under the rules of conduct of

18     the Ministry of Interior with respect to the Geneva Conventions, and that

19     was particular question which was put by the Court for which an answer

20     was not obtained in the record.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, these are precisely two topics that

22     are covered by other expert witness, precisely these two topics which are

23     covered by another expert.  Furthermore, I believe that the witness

24     already said that he is not familiar with the criminal proceedings with

25     all these kind of things.

Page 26900

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  These are not exactly criminal proceedings, the

 2     questions that Mr. Vanderpuye is proposing.

 3             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Also the VRS regulation.  He basically said that.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, let me confer with my colleagues.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So our Solomnonic solution to the dispute,

 7     Professor, I'm taking matters in our hand.  Take the first question that

 8     Mr. Vanderpuye would like to put to you, namely --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  You are kindly requested to turn off the

10     microphones that are not being used.  You are kindly requested to turn

11     off the microphones that are not being used.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  He is not receiving interpretation?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm not receiving any

14     interpretation.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you receiving interpretation now?  All right,

16     so I will start again.  We are taking matters in our hand for the time

17     being and would like to know whether you are in a position in any case to

18     answer either or both of the two questions that Mr. Vanderpuye would like

19     to put to you.  The first one presumably has do, according to

20     Mr. Vanderpuye, with the responsibilities of Mr. Borovcanin in

21     particular, in particular with respect to his presence or observations of

22     crimes that are occurring during his resubordination into the VRS.  So

23     this is a very broad question.  Taking the situation when Mr. Borovcanin

24     and his -- the component of his team have been resubordinated into the

25     VRS, what are or what would be Mr. Borovcanin's responsibilities in

Page 26901

 1     respect to his presence or observation of crimes that occur during that

 2     time?  Can you answer that question?

 3        A.   I can't answer competently to your two questions.  Yourself, Your

 4     Honour, have noticed that your questions are rather broad and I am really

 5     not competent to deal with anything that has to do anything with the

 6     system of courts and criminal responsibility.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is not precisely a question or relating to

 8     courts and criminal responsibility although limitedly so.  From your

 9     knowledge as an expert on police, and you have spoken also of the

10     situation when police units are resubordinated to the VRS, are you aware

11     of what the responsibilities of Mr. Borovcanin in those circumstances

12     would be if he comes to know of the commission of crimes?  Do you know

13     what his responsibilities would be?

14        A.   I analysed the police and everything else until the moment of

15     resubordination.  At the moment when Mr. Borovcanin was resubordinated, I

16     did not go on analysing his responsibility because it falls under the

17     domain of some rules and regulations that exist in the army.  I know that

18     the army had its own courts, but I really never dealt with the details

19     thereof.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  The second question that Mr. Vanderpuye

21     wished to put to you relates to what would be the obligations of

22     Mr. Borovcanin under the rules of conduct of the VRS or under the rules

23     of conduct of the Ministry of the Interior with regard to the Geneva

24     Convention.  This was put to you before by Judge Kwon, if I remember

25     well, and it's alleged that you did not give an answer to this.  Is there

Page 26902

 1     a reason why you didn't give an answer?  Are you in a position to give an

 2     answer now?

 3        A.   No, I actually have not noticed that I did not answer your

 4     question.  I'm sorry that my answer was not more complete, but I suppose

 5     that if Mr. Borovcanin was resubordinated to the Army Republika Srpska,

 6     that within the system of the army, there were rules that regulated such

 7     instances should they be noticed.  If that was your question.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  I think we can conclude here.

 9     Judge Kwon?  Judge Stole?  And the other questions you may wish to put,

10     you will put them to the other expert that will turn up later on.

11             Professor Bajagic, I wish to thank you very much on behalf of the

12     Trial Chamber for having come over and being patient with us these days

13     that you've been testifying.  I also wish you a safe journey back home.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you very much.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic, documents?

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I would like to ask to postpone the

18     discussion on documents.  We were unable to prepare all the documents.

19     We will be ready to discuss this tomorrow because it is a large number of

20     documents with this witness, so this is one of the things that I wanted

21     to raise but I was waiting for Mr. Bajagic to finish his evidence here.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Do you have any serious objection,

23     Mr. Vanderpuye?

24             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I addressed --

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, I have no objection.

Page 26903

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  The Miletic team wishes to tender some documents,

 4     the four of them, a list has been circulated.  Any objections?

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No objections.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections from your part, Mr. Vanderpuye?

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So these are being admitted.  Okay.  The

 9     understanding is that since for 5D1318, 5D1320 and 5D1321 we only have a

10     draft translation, in other words they have not yet been officially

11     translated, for the time being they will be marked for identification and

12     they will graduate to full exhibit status as soon as that is ready.

13             No other documents, I take it?  No, no, I'm checking with the

14     Defence teams.  No other documents.  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I do have a few but I'll be happy

16     to deal with it when Mr. Lazarevic is prepared to proceed, if that's all

17     right with the Court.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay with you?  All right.  Okay.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, there is one small issue before we

22     start the next witness.  I already addressed this issue to my colleagues

23     from the Prosecution, they say they don't mind.  With our next witness I

24     intend to use three documents which are not on our 65 ter list, and I

25     would like to ask for permission for these three documents to be added to

Page 26904

 1     our list.  These are three photographs of certain area.  And these are

 2     4D547, 4D593 and 4D594.  They were disclosed to the Prosecution, I think,

 3     three or four days ago.  Two days ago, I apologise, I don't want to

 4     mislead anyone, and we already had a chance to discuss these earlier this

 5     morning and they said they have no problem but I would like them to --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  -- state their position for the transcript.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Silence from everyone means a confirmation of that,

 9     that there is no opposition, objection.  Let's proceed.  Next witness,

10     please.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I apologise, can we have just a

12     5-minute break, because I intend to examine this witness also in chief,

13     just to collect my documents and my question for this witness.  We

14     just --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC:  -- had a much longer session with Mr. Bajagic

17     than we expected.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We'll have a 5 -- 5 minutes is enough?

19     We'll have a 5-minute break.  Thank you.

20                           --- Break taken at 11.32 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ready to go.  The witness.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, we are ready.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, to you, Mr. Zaric.

Page 26905

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good morning.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are welcome to this Tribunal.  You are about to

 3     start giving evidence as a Defence witness for accused Borovcanin in this

 4     case.  Before you start your testimony you are required under our rules

 5     to make a solemn declaration that in the course of your testimony, you

 6     will be speaking the truth.  Madam Usher is going to give you the text of

 7     the solemn declaration, please read it out aloud and that will be your

 8     commitment with us.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Please make yourself

12     comfortable.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic will go first.  He will then be

15     followed by others on cross-examination.  Mr. Lazarevic.

16                           WITNESS:  ZARKO ZARIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

19        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zaric.  I apologise for making you wait

20     yesterday and today.  It was because we were unable to complete our

21     previous witness before that time.  However, we may go ahead now.

22     Although, we've met already, I want to introduce myself for the record.

23     My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic together with Mr. Gosnell and Mrs. Cmeric

24     I appear on behalf of Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin before this Tribunal.

25             For the record, please state your first and last name.

Page 26906

 1        A.   Zarko Zaric.

 2        Q.   [No interpretation]?

 3        A.   The 9th of July 1966.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Mr. Lazarevic's

 5     question was, "What was your date of birth?"

 6             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Where were you born?

 8        A.   The village of Nezuk, Zvornik municipality.

 9        Q.   Where did you attend school?

10        A.   The first four grades of primary school I completed in

11     Baljkovica, Zvornik municipality.  Between the 4th and 8th grade I went

12     to school in sotna [phoen], Zvornik municipality.

13        Q.   After that did you complete any other schools?

14        A.   Yes, the high school for workers in the catering industry in

15     Zvornik.

16        Q.   Where do you reside now?

17        A.   In Zvornik in Braca Jugovic Street 3A1/2.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move on to your career.  What was your first

19     employment?

20        A.   In 1985, I worked in a private catering establishment for a brief

21     period of time of about a year.  Then I worked for the catering company

22     Stati [phoen] Zvornik and I stayed with that company until 1991.  After

23     that I worked in a bar, private bar in Zvornik until the war broke out.

24        Q.   Concerning your activities during the war, we'll discuss those

25     later.  Can you tell us where do you work currently?

Page 26907

 1        A.   I work at the public security station in Zvornik as an expert in

 2     telecommunications.

 3        Q.   What was your engagement during the war in Bosnia?

 4        A.   It was on the 4th of April 1992 when I became a member of the

 5     reserve police force in Zvornik.  When the war broke out, I was in Nezuk,

 6     which is my birth place.  I was there until late May or early June 1992.

 7     In June that year, I received a weapon and equipment at the police

 8     station in Zvornik.  My job there lasted until 1994 when I attended a

 9     police course in -- at Jahorina.  I spent three months there attending

10     lectures, then I returned to Zvornik for three months and had three more

11     months of training in activities on the ground.

12             In 1994, I was sent to attend another course, which is to be a

13     dog trainer, in Crepoljsko near Sarajevo.  I was there until late 1995.

14     Sorry, late 1994.  In early 1995, I was a policeman in the Zvornik police

15     station.  That lasted until the 13th of July, when I was wounded as a

16     policeman.

17        Q.   Very well.  You've explained to us your career more or less

18     during that period.  In July 1995, what were your duties as a member of

19     the police station in Zvornik?

20        A.   I was on the beat patrolling the town of Zvornik, securing

21     buildings and doing other regular police tasks.

22        Q.   Very well.  You were talking about your regular police duties

23     that you had as a policeman.  Did you also have certain duties as a

24     member of the PJP unit of the public security station in Zvornik?

25        A.   I was a member of the 1st PJP Company in Zvornik.

Page 26908

 1        Q.   That was the 1st PJP Zvornik Company.  Can you tell us whether it

 2     was divided into any smaller parts, and if so, which part did you belong

 3     to?

 4        A.   The company comprised three platoons, and then in turn, the

 5     platoons were comprised of detachments or squads.

 6        Q.   Who commanded the 1st PJP Company of Zvornik at the public

 7     security centre there?

 8        A.   It was Mr. Radomir Pantic.

 9        Q.   Did he have a deputy, and if so, who was it?

10        A.   As the company commander, he had a deputy.  It was Mr. Radoslav

11     Stuparevic, aka Raci.

12        Q.   Who commanded your squad?  Let's start with your platoon

13     commander first.

14        A.   My platoon commander in the 1st Company was Mr. Marinko Ergic

15     [phoen] and my squad commander was Cvijan Ristic, aka Cviko.

16        Q.   Let us look at a document.  It is in e-court.  I know you are not

17     familiar with that system, and unfortunately we did not have an

18     opportunity to acquaint you with the layout of the courtroom and the

19     functioning of the equipment.  In any case, on the screen in front of you

20     there will appear the document that I want to discuss with you.  Could we

21     please have 4D578 brought up in e-court.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, we don't have translation of these

23     documents but it's basically only the list of names.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

Page 26909

 1        Q.   Mr. Zaric, have a look at the document.  Can you tell us what it

 2     says in the heading?

 3        A.   List of policemen of the 1st Company of the PJP of the CJB in

 4     Zvornik.

 5        Q.   Let's look under A, it says "company command."  It is not

 6     necessary to read for the record all of the names, but please have a look

 7     at those yourself and then I will have a question for you.  Were you able

 8     to go through the names and does this correspond to the composition of

 9     the first PJP company command, that is to say Pantic as the commander,

10     Stuparevic as deputy, so on?

11        A.   Yes, it does.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Let us see the bottom part of the document next.

13     Very well.  It says the first squad of the first platoon.  Let's look at

14     item 5 on the document.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   That is your name, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We will no longer need this document.  Mr. Zaric, I

19     have a few questions concerning your regular police duties, as well as a

20     number of questions concerning your duties while you were a member of the

21     PJP unit.  While you were performing your regular duties as a policeman

22     in the police station in Zvornik, what kind of uniform did you wear?

23        A.   We wore a camouflage blue police uniform with insignia.

24        Q.   When participating in combat as a PJP member, did you wear the

25     same uniform or some other?

Page 26910

 1        A.   For the most part we wore a camouflage or olive drab police

 2     uniform with police insignia.

 3        Q.   I apologise, you said for the most part, does it mean that it was

 4     so or not?

 5        A.   We always wore a camouflage green uniform with police insignia.

 6        Q.   In July 1995 did you hold any rank?

 7        A.   I did not.

 8        Q.   I have a few additional questions about the PJP unit.  You said

 9     you were a member of the 1st PJP company.  Save for that PJP company,

10     were there any other such companies at the centre -- public security

11     centre in Zvornik?

12        A.   The centre had five or six companies.

13        Q.   You have already told us that your company commander was Radomir

14     Pantic.  Within that PJP structure was there anyone who was senior to

15     Radomir Pantic?

16        A.   At the level of the public security centre in Zvornik, it was

17     Mr. Zoljic [Realtime transcript read in error "Zvornic"] who was his

18     superior.

19        Q.   Very well.  We need to correct something in the transcript.  The

20     last name is Zoljic.

21             I have a few more questions about the PJP and its 1st Company.

22     Did the 1st PJP company include only members of the police station in

23     Zvornik or were some of its members from other public security stations?

24        A.   All companies included policemen from all stations within the

25     centre.  Vlasenica, Sekovici, Milici, Skelani and of course the Zvornik

Page 26911

 1     police station.

 2        Q.   As for your company commander, which police station did he come

 3     from, the Zvornik one or some other?  To be more precise, I wanted to say

 4     the public security station.

 5        A.   He was the public security station commander in Milici.

 6        Q.   Very well, let us move to the 11th of July 1995.  Where were you

 7     on that day?

 8        A.   I was in Zvornik that day, until that afternoon.

 9        Q.   Did you at any point on the 11th of July -- were you summoned to

10     the police station?

11        A.   In the afternoon, it may have been around 3.00 p.m. I received a

12     phone call.  The police officer on duty at the Zvornik police station

13     called me and said that I should report to the station since I was to be

14     sent in the field.  He also told me that I should bring my weapon and

15     equipment.  I did so and reported to the duty officer in Zvornik.

16        Q.   Were you told there and then where you were supposed to go, what

17     your duties would be or anything in that sense?

18        A.   Only the 1st Company was in Zvornik, and the deputy commander of

19     the company Svijanica [phoen] told us that we would be sent to Bratunac.

20        Q.   Were you told at all what your tasks would be once in Bratunac?

21        A.   Nothing was told us about our future task when we were in

22     Zvornik.

23        Q.   Just one more question in order to complete this topic.  Before

24     the 11th of July, did you ever before go to any field mission with the

25     1st Company of the PJP?

Page 26912

 1        A.   No, I didn't.

 2        Q.   So in practical terms, this was your first mission?  Your first

 3     field mission?

 4        A.   Yes, it was my first field mission.

 5        Q.   When you received the information and you mentioned your

 6     equipment, what sort of equipment did you have in addition to the uniform

 7     that you had changed?  What was the equipment that you were told to bring

 8     with you as members of the PJP?

 9        A.   We had a combat set with a total of five rounds of ammo, that was

10     our equipment.  Or rather, five magazines of ammunition.

11        Q.   Did you receive any other equipment save for the equipment that

12     you've just described?

13        A.   No, we didn't get anything else.

14        Q.   So you acted upon that order, and you arrived where?

15        A.   We arrived in front of the police station in front of the centre

16     in Zvornik.  The whole platoon gathered there.  The first platoon from

17     the police station in Zvornik was also there and that's where a vehicle

18     awaited for us to take us to our field mission.

19        Q.   When was it approximately when you gathered there as members of a

20     platoon of the 1st PJP Company?

21        A.   It was around 1700 hours that we gathered there.  I can't tell

22     you exact time, but it was sometime between 6.00 and 7.00 that we set out

23     for Bratunac.

24        Q.   You have already told us, but can you please tell us again

25     whether you can remember the names of any of the members of your platoon

Page 26913

 1     that were gathered there together with you?

 2        A.   Cvijan Ristic, Mile Vidovic, also known as Smit [phoen], Brano

 3     Milanovic, Spasen Vakovic [phoen], also known as Spasen, Nenad Andric,

 4     Nedo Koljvitovic [phoen], Nenad Filipovic.

 5        Q.   Very well, this should suffice, I just wanted to hear some names.

 6     The persons that you just mentioned, were they all from Zvornik?

 7        A.   Yes, they were all from the police station in Zvornik.

 8        Q.   You've already told us that you had undergone training for police

 9     dogs, handlers.  Did you have a police dog at that time and if you did

10     did you take the dog with you into the field mission?

11        A.   Yes, I had a dog in my police station but on that day I did not

12     take the dog with me.

13        Q.   At one point you set out from Zvornik.  Could you tell us what

14     kind of vehicle did you use to go to Bratunac?

15        A.   It was a bus.  A bus took us from that police station.

16        Q.   Was it a normal bus that normal transported the 1st PJP Company

17     on its field mission?

18        A.   Yes.  The driver was a policeman who normally was on our string,

19     and bus belonged to the Drinatrans Company or some such company, but in

20     any case it was our driver who took us there.

21        Q.   In any case when you set out from in front of the public security

22     centre in Zvornik in the direction of Bratunac, did Radomir Pantic, the

23     company commander, accompany you?

24        A.   I don't think he was with us, or at least I don't remember.

25        Q.   Very well.  And now let me ask you, according to your best

Page 26914

 1     recollection, when did you approximately arrive in Bratunac?

 2        A.   We arrived sometime in the evening or late in the afternoon.

 3     After 7.00 in the evening, or maybe even 8.00.  I can't remember.

 4        Q.   And just one more question about that.  On the road from Zvornik

 5     to Bratunac did you pull over anywhere, did you make a break?

 6        A.   Yes.  I believe that we had a break in Konjevic Polje.

 7        Q.   What was the reason, why did you stop?

 8        A.   I believe that there we were joined by another part of the

 9     company, maybe from Milicev [phoen] Vlasenica.  They were all policemen

10     and they embarked on the same bus.

11        Q.   And just one more thing, in Konjevic Polje was there a police

12     checkpoint there?

13        A.   Yes, there was a police checkpoint.

14        Q.   Very well.  We are now in Bratunac, you have arrived by bus, can

15     you tell me where did the bus stop in Bratunac?

16        A.   We arrived in the vicinity of the police station in Bratunac, the

17     public security station, that is.  And this is where we got off the bus.

18        Q.   So you are saying this is in the vicinity of the police station

19     that you got off the bus.  Were there any other people there who had

20     arrived before or maybe they arrived subsequently?  I'm talking about

21     other members of the 1st Company of the PJP that did not belong to the

22     police station in Zvornik.

23        A.   Well, yes, that's where we all gathered.  Some arrived before us,

24     some arrived after us but in any case, at one point we were all there.

25        Q.   Mr. Zaric, when was the first time that you heard that the VRS

Page 26915

 1     forces had taken Srebrenica?

 2        A.   I heard it in Bratunac that evening.

 3        Q.   Only after you arrived in Bratunac, you did not know that before?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   When you gathered in front of the police station in Bratunac, did

 6     you, and if you did, who from, did you receive any instruction as to what

 7     your mission would be, what tasks you would have?

 8        A.   The company commander gathered us, he told us not to split, to

 9     stay put because there was a possibility for us to be sent towards Zuti

10     Most maybe the same evening or the following day.  He did not specify

11     because he did not know.  In any case, we were all there.

12        Q.   Is that all that Commander Pantic told you?  Did he say anything

13     else?

14        A.   We were told that we were supposed to receive complete

15     instructions once we got to Zuti Most but that there was a possibility

16     that there were groups or individuals in the forests around Bratunac,

17     that they were all probably armed and there was a lot of panic around

18     Bratunac.

19        Q.   And you already told us that Momir [as interpreted] Pantic told

20     you not to split, to stay put.  Where did you spend the night between the

21     11th and the 12th of July 1995?

22        A.   With a majority of the members of my company or at least my

23     platoon, I spent the night in a hall, I don't know whether it was a

24     school hall or some sports hall.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, stop, yes Mr. Thayer.

Page 26916

 1             MR. THAYER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  I just wanted to

 2     clarify the record.  There is a reference to a Momir Pantic.  I believe

 3     that's --

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, I just noticed it, I know what my colleague

 5     is referring to.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I will clarify this with the witness.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And the witness can conclude his answer

 9     if he hasn't finished as yet.

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Here in the record, in the question that I put to you, there is a

12     misspelled name of Mr. Pantic.  It is misspelled as Momir.  Could you

13     please correct that as to have a clear record?

14        A.   Radomir Pantic.

15        Q.   Very well.  Let's hear you continue your answer.  You said that a

16     majority of the members of the 1st Company spent that night in a sports

17     hall and this is where you were interrupted.

18        A.   I don't know whether it was a sports facility or a school

19     facility, but in any case, that's where I spent that night together with

20     the other members of my platoon.

21        Q.   And in addition to the members of your unit, the 1st Company of

22     the PJP, were there any other people, any other members of a military

23     unit or a police unit?

24        A.   No, not in that hall.  Or at least I didn't see them.

25        Q.   How long did you stay there, and what happened next?

Page 26917

 1        A.   We spent the night, and sometime around 4.00 in the morning, we

 2     got up and the commander gathered all of us again.  He lined up the

 3     company.  We got on a bus and we went in the direction of Zuti Most.  And

 4     right before Zuti Most, we took the right turning --

 5        Q.   Just a moment.  So you got on a bus and you went in the direction

 6     of Zuti Most?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You said that it was in the morning around 4.00 in the morning

 9     when you got up and approximately sometime after that you arrived in

10     front of Zuti Most.  Could you please tell us about the weather condition

11     that prevailed when you arrived in the region in front of Zuti Most?

12        A.   It was a foggy morning.  It was foggy where we pulled over.

13        Q.   And when you say that you pulled over in front of Zuti Most, I

14     suppose that we are talking in front of Zuti Most as we are looking from

15     the direction of Bratunac, am I correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In the place where the bus stopped in front of Zuti Most, did any

18     of your commanders already meet you there, did any of them join you

19     later?

20        A.   All the commanders were there.  The company commander, the deputy

21     company commander, and the platoon commander, they were all there.

22        Q.   Did they tell you there and then anything about your tasks and

23     what you were supposed to do next?

24        A.   Yes.  We received our complete instruction.  At that moment we

25     were told that we were supposed to scour the terrain right to the

Page 26918

 1     Bratunac-Srebrenica road.  We moved in depth on the right-hand side from

 2     the road.

 3        Q.   Just a moment, I need some more questions about this particular

 4     point before we move on.  Tell me then, your task was to scour the

 5     terrain.  In the region to the right from Zuti Most, my first question

 6     about that would be the following:  That morning when you arrived, did

 7     you notice any ambulance vehicle or any some such thing in the area where

 8     the bus pulled over?

 9        A.   Yes, there was an ambulance on the asphalt road where our bus

10     stopped and from where we were supposed to into our mission on the right

11     side of the road.

12        Q.   Just one more question.  Did any of the commanders tell you

13     anything about the checkpoint of the United Nations or anything with that

14     regard, could you please explain?

15        A.   The morning was foggy and we could not see that checkpoint in

16     front of us.  But then the company commander told us that there was an

17     UNPROFOR checkpoint and that we should pay special attention to it, that

18     we should be mindful of it, that we should avoid any possible conflicts

19     with them or any sort of communication with them, for that matter.

20        Q.   Thus he informed you that under no circumstances you should

21     engage with UN members?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   On that day, we are talking about the 12th of July 1995, did

24     there come a time when you did engage with UNPROFOR or members of the

25     Dutch battalion, to be more precise?

Page 26919

 1        A.   No.  We did not have any contacts with them.

 2        Q.   Very well.  You have told us that the unit's task was to scour

 3     the terrain from the right from Zuti Most.  Could you explain your

 4     formation when you set out?

 5        A.   When we got off the buses and when we received the order, we were

 6     walking in a single file in the depth of the terrain of some 300 or even

 7     more metres.  I remember that there was a house there and we reached that

 8     house.  On the left-hand side there was a ditch or a bank, this is where

 9     we stopped, because we used that as our shelter or shield.  This is where

10     we were supposed to stop and wait for further orders.

11        Q.   Let's hear a few more things and then we will ask you for some

12     more details based on some photos that you were shown.

13             When you started on your mission, did something happen that

14     hindered the progress of your mission for awhile?

15        A.   We stayed in front of that house for awhile in order to wait for

16     the demining squad who were supposed to take us through the minefield

17     from where we had to continue, or rather, start our scouring mission.

18     However, a gentleman unknown to me, a deminer, sapa [phoen], took a group

19     of some ten or dozen people through that minefield, and on his return --

20     when he was returning to take the other group, he stepped on a mine and

21     that hindered our progress.

22        Q.   Were you in the first group that the deminer led through the

23     field or not?

24        A.   No, I was not.  I stayed behind.

25        Q.   Do you remember what became of that deminer who was supposed to

Page 26920

 1     clear your passage after he stepped on the mine and got injured?

 2        A.   An ambulance arrived and took him away.  We didn't know precisely

 3     what happened to him.  In any case we learned later that he died.

 4        Q.   Let us move to the next document.  It is 4D557.

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  We have draft translation of this document

 6     although it's a list of names but just for everyone to have it.  It just

 7     says here soldiers of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade from 8 of

 8     April 1992.  If I could have the assistance of --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's for distribution?

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  -- Madam Usher with this.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  If it's for distribution let's have it

12     distributed.  Otherwise we'll put a copy on the ELMO.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can we please zoom in on the upper half of the document.  I'm

15     particularly interested in number 11.  Very well.  Mr. Zaric, you have

16     told us already that the person who was injured that day was someone you

17     didn't know, but look at item 11, it says Dragan Andric, father's name

18     Krstonije.  It says the 2nd Infantry Battalion, his year of birth and

19     Bratunac and Tanasici.  In the sixth column it says the date when killed.

20     It reads the 12th of July 1995.  Followed by a remark saying that the

21     soldier was killed while demining a minefield.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If you look at the date and manner in which his death occurred,

24     does it tally with what you were able to observe on that day near Zuti

25     Most?

Page 26921

 1        A.   Yes, it does.

 2        Q.   Thank you, I believe we will no longer need the document.  The

 3     accident that happened involving the Bratunac Brigade soldier, how long

 4     did that hold you back from advancing?

 5        A.   After the initial group of ten had passed, he tried to return and

 6     then he was injured.  That period lasted for about half an hour and we

 7     were no longer able to advance after that.

 8        Q.   So you said you set out single file.  Did you change formation?

 9        A.   After he was killed, we returned to the old formation, single

10     file, to try to avoid the minefield.  After a dirt road, we finally

11     spread out and we stood next to each other.  This was a regular formation

12     used when searching terrain.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I don't think we will be able to

14     deal with the next document in a minute or two that we have until the

15     break so ...

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you and we've been exchanging

17     views in the meantime.  We have decided to cut down the next break from

18     25 minutes to 20.  Thank you.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Zaric, let us look at the next document that

24     is about to appear before you.  I will ask you to mark a few things on

25     it.  However, I will need some assistance from the usher and this is

Page 26922

 1     document 4D547.  It is an aerial image of the general area of Zuti Most

 2     and entrance to Potocari.

 3             The image originates from the cadastre office in Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina and it was also marked by their office.  This is fine.  I

 5     wanted you to look at the picture so as to be able to indicate to you the

 6     objects in the general area.  On the left-hand side, there is Bratunac --

 7     sorry, I didn't mean to lead.  The road -- to which side does the road

 8     lead you to Bratunac and to Srebrenica?

 9        A.   To the left-hand side -- if I may have a moment.  If the thing

10     marked is Zuti Most, then on my left-hand side -- well, somewhere around

11     here we stopped with the bus.

12        Q.   Could you please mark that?

13        A.   Around here.  And we began moving to the right.

14        Q.   We will see that in the following images, but here you should

15     mark the place where you stopped the bus with a number 1.  Can you also

16     draw an arrow to indicate your direction of movement.  In the following

17     few images, we'll be able to see that better.  For the time being, could

18     you please initial the photograph in the lower right-hand corner.  Just

19     above that --

20        A.   [Marks].

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  And the date, yes.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

23        Q.   -- place today's date, please.  The 9th of the 10th.

24        A.   What year?

25        Q.   I think it should suffice if you just put 08.  Very well, could

Page 26923

 1     we please save the image and let us move to the next document.

 2             The next document I would like us to look at is 4D593.  This

 3     document is an image taken by Defence recently.  It was taken from

 4     elevation point 438.  To remind the Bench, this elevation was mentioned

 5     by Mr. Mico Gavric who was one of Mr. Nikolic's Defence witnesses.

 6             Mr. Zaric, you can see the photograph.  The day before yesterday

 7     during your proofing you had occasion to see it.  First of all, mark on

 8     this photograph the direction of your unit during the search operation.

 9        A.   I believe we got off the bus here and we followed this route, in

10     that direction.

11        Q.   Please make the line longer so as to have a clear indication of

12     the movement of the unit.

13        A.   In this part.  I think around here there was the minefield.

14        Q.   As best you can remember, could you please indicate where the

15     minefield was?

16        A.   Around this area.

17        Q.   Could you place a 1 next to the location of the minefield?

18        A.   [Marks].

19        Q.   Very well.  The next thing I want to ask you about the photograph

20     is this.  Could you approximately mark the place where the UNPROFOR

21     checkpoint was?

22        A.   I think the checkpoint was around here and we came from this

23     direction which is out of the photograph.  I think it was around here.

24        Q.   Please place a 2 just above that.

25        A.   [Marks].

Page 26924

 1        Q.   Could we please save the image, but first I need the witness to

 2     initial the photograph in the lower right-hand corner and please put a

 3     date there as well.

 4        A.   [Marks].

 5        Q.   For the record witness marked number 1 the place where the

 6     minefield was, he placed the number 2 next to the location of the

 7     DutchBat checkpoint.  Could we save the document now so that I could move

 8     to the next photograph, please.

 9             The next photograph is 4D594.  It is another photograph taken by

10     Defence from elevation 438, we just mentioned.  It basically follows on

11     the previous photograph.

12             Mr. Zaric, you have seen this photograph before during the

13     proofing.  I would kindly ask you to mark the direction of your unit as

14     you went further in the course of your search operation.

15        A.   We came from this part here and we used it to search the terrain.

16     We searched this whole area.

17        Q.   Please place an arrow at the end of the dotted line.

18        A.   [Marks].

19        Q.   Of course this photograph was taken from an elevation and it

20     should be kept in mind when looking at the markings.

21             When you completed your search operation, where did you come out

22     on to the asphalt road between Bratunac and Srebrenica so that we can

23     conclude using the photographs and continue with your testimony?

24        A.   On this photograph, well, we came from this direction and then

25     back to the asphalt road, Bratunac-Srebrenica.  We came out on the road

Page 26925

 1     around here.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Could you put number 1 here?

 3        A.   At the end or at the beginning?

 4        Q.   At the end of that route.  And like with the previous two photos,

 5     could you place the date and your initials in the lower right-hand side

 6     corner.

 7        A.   [Marks].

 8        Q.   Could the photo please be saved, and for the record, this should

 9     be retained as number 1 marking the place where the witness and his unit

10     came down on to the asphalt road.  I apologise, before we save this

11     photo, I just wanted to clarify one more thing while we still have the

12     photo on the screen.

13             When the unit was deployed, where were you deployed, you

14     personally?

15        A.   From the moment when we were deployed in a line, I was on the far

16     right-hand side so this is where my position was on the right wing.

17        Q.   Could you please mark that for the record.

18        A.   It would have been around here.

19        Q.   Put number 2 next to that.

20        A.   I believe that it is off the photo.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you receiving interpretation or not?  My mic is

22     on so I don't know.  Can you hear me now or not?  Okay.  Then probably I

23     wasn't quick enough.  Or I was too quick.  All right.  Let's proceed.

24     But you see the problem, the problem is that once --

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, I understand the problem.

Page 26926

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- it's been saved, you cannot put any more marks

 2     or it can become a new document, in other words.  Okay.

 3             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Very well.  In that case, could

 4     this be saved as it is and can we retrieve a new photo and save it as a

 5     new document.

 6             [In English] something else that I had in mind.  Since this is

 7     marked we can save it again and this should be a new document.  And they

 8     will have two different numbers.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Why complicate it that way.  Let's have a new

10     document.  There's no point in having a new document with all the

11     previous markings on it.  It will only complicate things.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Very well.  We have an unmarked

13     photo in e-court then.

14        Q.   Could you now please mark the place where you were, personally?

15        A.   It would be on the very right-hand side but I believe that it is

16     even off this photo.

17        Q.   Very well.  I believe that the document may be saved now.  And I

18     don't think we will need the document anymore.

19             Now that we have seen and marked the terrain through which you

20     moved, I would like to ask you certain number of questions about your

21     mission which was scouring the terrain.  Tell me, please, did you receive

22     any orders from the company commander or some other officers in the

23     company about your task and what you were supposed to do?

24        A.   Our concrete task was to scour the terrain and in case we found a

25     group of individuals who were armed, we would have been supposed to

Page 26927

 1     engage in combat.  And as for the rest, nothing else was ordered.

 2     Nothing special.

 3        Q.   In other words, if you had come across members of the enemy army,

 4     you would have engaged.  Did anything came up with regard to civilians,

 5     did you have any special orders with the regard to the civilians?

 6        A.   If we were to come across civilians, we were not to pay any

 7     attention to them.  We should have just proceeded and minded our own

 8     business, so to speak.

 9        Q.   During that operation, which was scouring the terrain, did you at

10     any point in time come across members of the BiH Army or civilians?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   And did you perhaps find any traces pointing to the fact that

13     members of the BH Army had been there?

14        A.   There were their defence trenches connected with communication

15     trenches.  They were all up there in the villages.

16        Q.   How long did your scouring operation last?

17        A.   It lasted up until between 1300 and 1400 hours.  Around 1300

18     hours we received an order to withdraw and to return to the asphalt road.

19        Q.   We have had an occasion to see these photos before and the way I

20     understand your testimony, this is a rather hilly terrain above the

21     Bratunac-Srebrenica road.  From the point that you marked on the photo

22     where you were, could you see the DutchBat base in Potocari?

23        A.   No, I couldn't see it from where I was standing.

24        Q.   Was there any obstruction that prevented your view?

25        A.   The configuration of the ground prevented me from having a better

Page 26928

 1     view.  There are some houses, some villages, so I could not get a clear

 2     view of the asphalt road at all.

 3        Q.   Very well.  You have told us that at one point you came down from

 4     the hills and that you ended on the Bratunac-Srebrenica asphalt road.

 5     Could you tell me how far away was that from the DutchBat base?

 6        A.   It was on our left-hand side some 200 metres away from our route

 7     of descent.  150 to 200 metres, thereabouts.

 8        Q.   This mean that is you came down on the road some 200 metres away

 9     from the base?

10        A.   Yes, from the base in the direction of Bratunac.

11        Q.   The base was on the right-hand said then?

12        A.   Yes, it was.

13        Q.   As you descended on the asphalt road and arrived there, could you

14     see from that place that in the base and around the United Nations base

15     there was a large number of refugees who had gathered there?

16        A.   Yes, I could see it well from there.

17        Q.   Did you personally at any point in time approach the civilians

18     who were gathered there?

19        A.   No.  We even had an order from our company commander not to

20     approach them and not to mingle, not to mix with them.

21        Q.   Very well then.  Tell me please, you said that you had an order

22     not to do that, but do you know if any other members of your unit

23     approached the civilians?

24        A.   No, I wouldn't know of anybody approaching the civilians.  None

25     of our policemen did as far as I know.

Page 26929

 1        Q.   As you descended on the road, did any of the commanders, and I'm

 2     referring to the 1st Company, accompany you, was anybody with you?

 3        A.   Commander Pantic was next to the bus that was waiting for us

 4     there.  He waited for us there on the asphalt road.  And the platoon

 5     commander was with us all the time.  He was basically walking next to me.

 6     I'm talking about Cvijan Ristic.

 7        Q.   And when you descended on the asphalt road, how long did you stay

 8     there?

 9        A.   In light of the fact that I was the furthest away and I was the

10     last to come down, I believe the whole group stayed between 15 and 20

11     minutes, not more than that as far as I can remember.  That's how long we

12     spent by the bus.

13        Q.   And tell me what were you doing while you were standing on the

14     road?

15        A.   Our task was together to get on the bus because we had an order,

16     a commander's order to return to Bratunac.

17        Q.   And let me ask you this, while you were on the road, could you

18     possibly see the arrival of a certain number of lorries and buses who

19     were approaching the DutchBat base in Potocari?

20        A.   Yes, we encountered a few empty buses headed towards Srebrenica,

21     towards the base.

22        Q.   Did you have an occasion to see that the buses transported

23     refugees from Potocari?

24        A.   I did not have an occasion to see that.  I saw a somewhat smaller

25     convoy later in the afternoon.

Page 26930

 1        Q.   Very well then.  At what point in time, and you've already told

 2     us about the bus, you got on the bus and you left the area.  Was that the

 3     same bus or did you use some other sort of transportation?

 4        A.   We used the same bus to go to the public security station in

 5     Bratunac.

 6        Q.   So you arrived in front of the police station in Bratunac.  Could

 7     you please tell us how long you stayed there.  How much time did you

 8     spend in front of the police station in Bratunac?

 9        A.   We stayed a bit longer time.  Maybe five hours, after which we

10     started gathering for our next mission.  We had been told that we were

11     supposed to leave for Konjevic Polje and Sandici and it was sometime

12     around 6.00 that we set out on that mission.

13        Q.   Very well.  And what did you do while you were in Bratunac?

14        A.   We had to stay put and await our further orders.

15        Q.   So you have told us that at one point this time, sometime later

16     in the afternoon you left Bratunac.  Tell me, please, did you use the

17     same bus again?

18        A.   Yes, we used the same bus to leave Bratunac and go in the

19     direction of Konjevic Polje or rather Sandici.

20        Q.   You have already told us that your company was taken to Sandici.

21     Had you ever been there before, were you familiar with the area of

22     Sandici?

23        A.   No, I'd never been there before.  It was only after my arrival

24     there that I learned that the place was actually called Sandici.

25        Q.   So you arrived at a place called Sandici, you got off the bus and

Page 26931

 1     what happened next?  Was your unit deployed and how was it deployed if it

 2     was?

 3        A.   As we arrived in Sandici, we received an order to deploy in a

 4     line along the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road so as to have Konjevic Polje

 5     on our right-hand side and Bratunac on our left-hand side.  Actually, we

 6     made a defence line to prevent a group or the army to cut off that road

 7     and get behind our backs in the Serbian villages that were there.

 8        Q.   And during that night between the 12th and 13th of July, did you

 9     stay in the same place where you were originally deployed as soon as you

10     arrived there?

11        A.   I remained there until sometime between 3.00 and 400 in the

12     morning on the 13th, that is when I was wounded.

13        Q.   Very well, let me ask this:  You have told us that your task was

14     to make a defence line and secure the road and the villages that were

15     behind you.  Who told you what your task was?

16        A.   It was Commander Pantic who told us that there was a possibility

17     that groups or individuals or larger groups that were armed could

18     approach and try and break through the road and enter the villages that

19     were behind our line.

20        Q.   Did anybody point to the direction from which that break-through

21     of the Muslim forces might have been expected?

22        A.   As you are looking towards Bratunac, it should have been our

23     left-hand side.  It's a hilly and wooded area that was on our left-hand

24     side.

25        Q.   Very well then.

Page 26932

 1             [In English] As you are looking from Bratunac this is what the

 2     witness said, not towards Bratunac.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We'll take note of that.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So you were taken there to Sandici, the unit was deployed along

 6     the road and in the course of that evening from the moment when you were

 7     deployed and further on, what did you observe in terms of traffic on that

 8     road?

 9        A.   We arrived at dusk and the intensity of traffic was somewhat

10     lower.  We could pass by and I noticed just one convoy that I've already

11     mentioned consisting of some 3, 4, maybe 5 buses that were escorted by

12     UNPROFOR and passed by us.

13        Q.   Did you pay any attention to the people transported on that

14     convoy?

15        A.   As far as I could see, those were predominantly women Muslims

16     mostly who were on those buses.  And maybe some elderly men, perhaps.

17        Q.   At the place where you were, was there any facility nearby and if

18     there was, could you describe it?

19        A.   Vis-a-vis my position and looking towards the enemy side on the

20     left-hand side there was a house, a destroyed house.

21        Q.   During the deployment and afterwards, were you able to observe

22     any members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   No, I didn't see any members of the army of B&H.

24        Q.   How long did you stay there?

25        A.   I stayed there until the moment I was wounded, which was around

Page 26933

 1     4.00 in the morning of the 13th.

 2        Q.   Did you or any other members of your units have any direct combat

 3     contact with the enemy?

 4        A.   On our side there was no contact until the moment I was wounded.

 5        Q.   Were you alone in that location or were there any other members

 6     of your unit with you?

 7        A.   There were other members.  To my right it was Nenad Andric who

 8     was wounded on the same occasion.  Next to him was Nenad Filipovic, also

 9     wounded.  Then there was a guy whose name I don't know, he was killed.

10     He came from the Bratunac platoon.  Next to him was Ikonic and the rest.

11     In any case these people were there with me.

12        Q.   During the night did any army B&H members surrender to you?

13        A.   While I was there no one did.

14        Q.   Do you know whether anyone surrendered to any of your colleagues

15     from the company?

16        A.   Not as far as I know.

17        Q.   Until the moment when you were wounded, were you able to see or

18     hear anything that may have been taking place in the hills?

19        A.   Between the moment I arrived and when I was wounded, one could

20     hear shooting all the time varying in intensity.  In any case, you could

21     hear shooting in front of us basically all the time.

22        Q.   As you were on the bus from Bratunac to Sandici along the way

23     were you able to observe if any VRS or police units were there before

24     reaching Sandici?

25        A.   There were soldiers, I don't know from which unit.  In any case,

Page 26934

 1     they wore camouflage uniforms.  And I'd say there were many of them along

 2     the way.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us what happened early in the morning on the 13th of

 4     July?

 5        A.   At a certain point after a short lull, I felt an explosion, after

 6     which I felt I was hit in the leg.  And then it was followed by bursts of

 7     gunfire in front of us and my colleagues returned fire.  After that

 8     moment I don't remember much.  It's all hazy.  I only remember being

 9     placed in the car and taken back to Bratunac to receive some first aid.

10        Q.   You felt you had been hit and you were also only partly

11     conscious.  Do you know how, by what means were you transferred from the

12     place where you were wounded?

13        A.   It was a Golf passenger car.  Darker in colour, I think.

14        Q.   Do you know where you were taken?

15        A.   I was taken to the health centre in Bratunac and administered

16     first aid.

17        Q.   Could we please look at 4DP1892.  It is a log of the health

18     centre in Bratunac.  Page 29 in the B/C/S.  Can you see the document in

19     front of you?

20        A.   Yes, I can.

21        Q.   Look at the first line, the first entry is 1483, is this you when

22     you look at the date of birth, name and father's name?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In the first column it says it was on the 13th of July 1995 at

25     045 hours.  45 hours after midnight [as interpreted].

Page 26935

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The last column that was filled in says special police Zvornik.

 3     Were you a member of the special police?

 4        A.   No, we were policemen members of the first PJP police unit.

 5        Q.   When you were brought to Bratunac, how long did you stay there

 6     and what was going on with you?

 7        A.   As far as I recall, because I was only partly conscious, they

 8     immobilized my leg and transported me to Zvornik.  I may have remained in

 9     Bratunac for about an hour.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Let us move to the next document which is 1DP1891.

11     Page 271 in the B/C/S and page 19 in the English version.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm being told that the document is under seal.  So

13     there will be no broadcast.  Okay.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise that I did not pay attention, I'm

15     sorry.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir --

17             [In English] This is not the page that I wanted.  It's page 271

18     in order.  This is the page that I need bears ERN number 01180277.

19             [Interpretation] Very well.  The date is the 13th of July 1995.

20     Please look at the entry beginning with 4561.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is that your name?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   I omitted to ask you one thing.  When you were wounded and while

25     you were still by the road, can you tell us what was the direction of the

Page 26936

 1     attack against you?  Did it come from the hills?

 2        A.   It came from the direction of the hill and the forests that was

 3     in front of us.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Let us continue now.  After you were admitted in

 5     Zvornik, what followed?

 6        A.   I underwent a surgery the same day on my left thigh.  I was there

 7     for about four or five days after which I was sent to the special

 8     orthopaedic ward in Belgrade at Banjica.  I remained there between 15 and

 9     20 days then I was sent to Banja Koviljaca to the specialised orthopaedic

10     clinic there and remained under therapy there for about almost a year.

11        Q.   You stayed there almost a year.  What followed?  Did you go back

12     to Zvornik?  Did you take sick leave, and if so, how long?

13        A.   I was on sick leave until June 1998.  The commission then

14     assigned me to another job.  I was placed at the switchboard and I still

15     do that.

16        Q.   I would like us to go through a couple of documents, and that

17     will be the end of your examination-in-chief.  The first document is

18     P03113.  Page 2, please.  Could we zoom in on the upper part.  You have

19     not seen this document before, but I believe it will be clear to you

20     after I explain it.  Under 1 it says "combat operations."  It says:  "On

21     the 13th of July 1995 in the morning hours, large groups of enemy

22     military formations from Srebrenica infiltrated the area of Sandici,

23     Bratunac municipality and in the area of Konjevic Polje, where Zvornik

24     public security centre police officers came under armed attack.  In the

25     course of the fighting in these places, Bratunac public security station

Page 26937

 1     police officer Zeljko Ninkovic was killed.  Milos Zoljic, Zaric Zilko and

 2     Nenad Andric were seriously wounded while Nenad Filipovic Was slightly

 3     wounded."

 4             So that you would know what the document is, I will tell you that

 5     it is the bulletin of daily events of the centre in Zvornik for the days

 6     13th and the 14th of July 1995.  The date is in the left right-hand [as

 7     interpreted] side corner and it says the 14th of July.  Does the content

 8     of the paragraph correspond to what happened to you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   To conclude, I'd like us to look at another document.  It is in

11     e-court P59.  Could we zoom in, please on bullet point 6.  And I will

12     explain for the record.  This is a dispatch which was sent to the MUP of

13     Republika Srpska by Mr. Dragomir Vasic to the staff of the police staff

14     in Bijeljina, to the office of the minister in Pale and the public

15     security sector on 12th of July 1995.  Mr. Zaric, let's look at bullet

16     point 6.  I'm going to read it to you and I would like to hear your

17     comment after that.  And this will bring us to the end of your today's

18     testimony.

19             Joint forces of the police are advancing towards Potocari.  Their

20     goal is to arrest UNPROFOR and encircle the entire civilian population

21     and to clean the terrain from enemy groups.  You participated in the

22     events, you were there during this period of time.  Tell me, please, is

23     the allegation from the dispatch correct, did you participate in making

24     arrests of UNPROFOR soldiers?

25        A.   Absolutely incorrect.

Page 26938

 1        Q.   Did you have any orders with regard to UNPROFOR?

 2        A.   We had an order from our company commander not to approach

 3     UNPROFOR at any cost, not to engage in any combat, not to open fire in

 4     their direction, anything.

 5        Q.   Very well then, and as far as the encircling of the entire

 6     population is concerned, did you have any such orders, anything to that

 7     effect?

 8        A.   No, not at all.  Nobody ordered any such thing, we never came

 9     into contact with any civilians.

10        Q.   And now on to the last line.  Did you participate in the scouring

11     of the terrain in order to establish the presence of enemy groups?

12        A.   Yes, that was our only mission, our only task.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you very much, Mr. Zaric, I have no further

14     questions for you.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Just to try and see what where we

16     stand.  Mr. Zivanovic, will you be cross-examining this witness?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honours, thank you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Ms. Nikolic -- Mr. Ostojic, sorry.

19     None?

20             MS. NIKOLIC:  [Interpretation] No questions.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau.

22             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic.

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  And thank you.  Mr. Sarapa?  I'm sorry, I couldn't

Page 26939

 1     see you.  For the record, Mr. Haynes is present.  No questions.

 2             Now, Mr. Thayer, do you have any questions?

 3             MR. THAYER:  I do, Mr. President.  I can tell you that it won't

 4     take the hour and a half that we asked for.  It will be --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Seven minutes?

 6             MR. THAYER:  Not seven minutes.  I'm at the Court's disposal, I

 7     can switch up my order of questioning and get a couple of small areas

 8     outs of the way in the seven minutes we have left and pick up later.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please do.  I wouldn't like to waste these seven

10     minutes.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

12        Q.   Sir, good afternoon.  My name is Nelson Thayer, I'll be asking

13     you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.

14        A.   Okay.

15        Q.   If I could ask you just to move just a little bit closer to the

16     microphone please and then we won't miss anything you have to say.  I

17     want to ask you a couple of questions first about the basic equipment

18     that you brought with you on this mission as a PJP officer.  You've

19     already testified about the automatic rifle and the five clips.  We've

20     been told by other PJP officers that in addition to their automatic

21     rifle, they brought their service pistols with them into the field.  Do

22     you recall whether or not you brought your service pistol with you to the

23     field on this occasion?

24        A.   I did not have a pistol, my service pistol with me, no.

25        Q.   Now, you described the uniform that you wore, the uniform had a

Page 26940

 1     patch on its left sleeve, did it not?

 2        A.   Yes, that's a patch that represented the police.

 3        Q.   Just so we are clear on the record, this is the uniform that you

 4     wore when you were a member of the PJP unit as opposed to your blue

 5     uniform that you wore in the course of your regular police duties;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, you told the Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo that your

 9     platoon commander, Mr. Ristic, had a radio.  What kind of radio do you

10     recall him having?

11        A.   I don't remember exactly.  In our view, it was a Motorola.  But

12     I'm not sure whether it was a Motorola and what type of Motorola, if it

13     was.

14        Q.   Okay.  And when you say, "in our view it was a Motorola," is it

15     fair to say, sir, that as you sit here today your best recollection is

16     that your platoon commander carried with him a Motorola radio during this

17     operation?

18        A.   I'm not sure that it was a Motorola.  It was a radio set.  It was

19     a communication device.  And we, or at least I, called every such set a

20     Motorola.  But this doesn't mean that every device was a Motorola.  It's

21     a specific brand, so to speak.

22        Q.   I understand, sir.  Now, when Mr. Ristic was interviewed by the

23     Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo, he recalled that he had a code name that

24     he used over that radio and he thought that it might have been Omega 24.

25     I just want to ask you whether that code name rings any bells with you as

Page 26941

 1     you sit here today.

 2        A.   I know that it was Omega but I can't remember the digits, the

 3     number.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I was able to use 5 minutes but I am

 5     afraid if I go into my next section it will take a little bit more time

 6     than we have.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.  Thank you, sir.

 8     We'll meet again tomorrow.  And in the meantime, please between now and

 9     tomorrow morning when you will resume your testimony, you are not to

10     allow anyone to discuss with you the subject matter of your testimony.

11     In other words, you are not to communicate with anyone on what you are

12     testifying about.  Is that clear?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, it's clear.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We stand adjourned until tomorrow

15     morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17                           1.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day

18                           of October 2008, at 9.00 a.m.