Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27106

 1                           Tuesday, 21 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm sorry.  I notice that General Miletic is back.

12     General Beara isn't present today.  Mr. Ostojic, the information that we

13     have is that he is not feeling well.  Will we have the waiver within the

14     day?

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  You will, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

17             Ms. Fauveau, in relation to yesterday's absence of your client, I

18     don't recall having seen the waiver as yet -- oh, it has arrived now.

19     All right.  Okay.  Thank you.

20             Now, Prosecution today is represented by Mr. McCloskey and

21     Mr. Thayer.  I think that comes to Defence teams, we have a full house

22     today.  The witness is already present, so we can start with his

23     testimony.  Mr. Zivanovic?

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I would just like to

25     introduce our new member of our team.  It is Ms. Antigoni Xagoraraki.

Page 27107

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, ma'am, and welcome.

 2             So you finished with your cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic, I

 3     take it.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, yesterday you said you would need

 6     about 15 minutes or something like that.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  We have no questions for this witness at this time,

 8     Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Ms. Nikolic, go ahead and

10     introduce yourself to the witness.

11             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           WITNESS:  DRAGOSLAV TRISIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:

15        Q.   Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.  Good morning,

16     Mr. Trisic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Although we've already met, I am going to introduce myself for

19     the record.  My name is Jelena Nikolic, and I represent, together with

20     Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Drago Nikolic.  I am going to put several questions to

21     you on this occasion.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Yesterday during your testimony, on pages 27030 and 27031, you

24     testified that during the period of 1992 within the 5th Battalion of the

25     Birac Brigade you were in charge of security and intelligence; is that

Page 27108

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   If I understood you properly, during the war you were in charge

 4     of those tasks only for those two months?

 5        A.   Yes, you're right.  Only for the two months that I mentioned.

 6        Q.   And after the months of September and October 1992, you were

 7     assigned to completely different tasks in the logistics part of the

 8     brigade; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   While you were in charge of the intelligence and security detail,

11     were you familiar with the documents of the JNA such as the command of

12     the work of the commands and staffs and the rules of service of security

13     service, the military police, the instruction on the methods of work of

14     the security service, and so on and so forth?

15        A.   Partially, not completely.

16        Q.   Were you familiar with the methods of work in

17     counter-intelligence and the application of these methods?

18        A.   Not completely.

19        Q.   Will you agree with me that in the course of your work in the

20     security organ, you knew about the work of this organ only as much as was

21     going on within the framework of your brigade; would that be correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you did not have any other experience with regard to the work

24     of the security organs?

25        A.   Yes, you're right.  I did not have any other experience.

Page 27109

 1        Q.   Do you remember when we met a few days ago that you told me that

 2     you had not read the rules of the work of the security organ, that you

 3     did not deal with that because you were keen to leave that kind of duty

 4     as soon as possible?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The job did not suit me at all.

 6        Q.   And now I would like to move on and put several questions to you

 7     about something else.  Yesterday, on pages 27062 and 27063, you testified

 8     about your presence at a meeting, the meeting took place on the 12th of

 9     July, 1995, at the command of the Bratunac Brigade.  Do you remember

10     that?  I apologise, my mistake.  That you were actually a member of the

11     Bratunac Brigade when a meeting took place?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And in the course of that day, at the brigade command you saw

14     officers from various -- other units?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Since you hail from Bratunac or the general region of Bratunac,

17     did you personally know Drago Nikolic from the Zvornik Brigade?  Did you

18     know what he looked like?

19        A.   Yes, we had met and I knew what he looked like.

20        Q.   During those days and on that day, did you see Mr. Drago Nikolic

21     in the Bratunac Brigade from the Zvornik Brigade, or did you see any

22     other officer from the Zvornik Brigade for that matter?

23        A.   I did not see Drago Nikolic.  I did not meet him around that

24     time.  I don't know about any others.

25        Q.   In addition to that, on page 27069 yesterday, you mentioned on

Page 27110

 1     line 10 that in Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995, you had seen, amongst

 2     others, members of the Zvornik Brigade.  Do you remember that?

 3        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  That's true.

 4        Q.   Did you talk to those people?  Did they introduce themselves to

 5     you?  Did they tell you what unit they were from?

 6        A.   No, I didn't talk to them, and obviously, they did not introduce

 7     themselves to me.

 8        Q.   So how did you conclude that they were from the Zvornik Brigade,

 9     based on what?

10        A.   As far as I can remember, members of the Zvornik Brigade wore

11     patches on the sleeves depicting the words, "The Army of

12     Republika Srpska" with the insignia of the Zvornik Brigade wolves or

13     something to that effect.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Trisic.  I have no further questions for you.

15        A.   Not at all.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.  Ms. Fauveau.

17             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have 15 minutes of question.

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.  I am Natacha Ivanovic.  I represent

20     General Miletic.  I would like to ask you a few questions on a precise

21     subject which has to do with fuel which the Bratunac Brigade received in

22     July 1995.  I would like you to see document 4D613.  Could we please see

23     page 3 of the document in B/C/S because I think the English version is

24     page 2.  Excuse me, it's page 2 in B/C/S and page --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  We didn't hear in it the English.

Page 27111

 1             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You spoke yesterday about 30.000 litres which the

 3     Bratunac Brigade had received from the DutchBat, page 56 of yesterday's

 4     notes.  And you said yesterday, also on page 56, that these 30.000

 5     litres, which appear here at item 2, UNHCR.  Did I understand you

 6     properly?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'd like to clarify a point.  Why do you say it was received from

 9     the DutchBat, this fuel?  It says here that it is UNHCR which is

10     indicated on this document.

11        A.   My associate, the assistant for traffic, indicated that.  That's

12     what he wrote.  I was present when this fuel was unloaded from the tank

13     of the Dutch battalion into the tank of the Vihor transport company.

14        Q.   All right.  I will come back on this point a little bit later.

15     Do you remember when this fuel was received?  Do you remember the date

16     for these 30.000 litres, when they were received?

17        A.   As far as I can remember, this could have been on the 13th.  Most

18     probably on the 13th of July.

19        Q.   Could the witness be shown 5D1385.  Is this document a receipt

20     for the fuel, the 30.000 litres which the Bratunac Brigade received?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   Just to be quite clear, where you can read "7042 Bratunac," is it

23     indeed the number of the military post of the Bratunac Brigade?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   The date on this document is indeed the 13th of July, as you

Page 27112

 1     indicated a while ago.

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3        Q.   I would like now to see 1386, document 1386.  5D1386, please.  Is

 4     this document a receipt by the Vihor society -- company of part of this

 5     fuel which would be part of 30.000 litres which was, before that,

 6     received by the brigade?

 7        A.   Here it says 23.300.  That's what he it says here, 23.300.  You

 8     would have to jog my memory a little.

 9        Q.   If I can help you, the date on this document is the 14th of July,

10     1995, and one can read at the top "Military post 7402" and between

11     brackets "UNHCR," between brackets.

12        A.   This is probably a document that we issued to Vihor which means

13     that we took over the fuel and transferred it on to Vihor, and this is

14     the document proving that the fuel ended up with Vihor and that they owe

15     us that fuel.

16        Q.   This document just as the one you spoke about a little while ago,

17     also indicates UNHCR, doesn't it?  Now, what I would like to know is that

18     you said you were present in the DutchBat bases when the fuel was being

19     given to the authorities of the Republika Srpska, but this fuel indeed

20     was at the DutchBat, but you don't know whether the owner could have been

21     the HCR, UNHCR?

22        A.   I believe that you misspoke.  The fuel was unloaded from the tank

23     of the DutchBat within the perimeter of the Vihor company, into their

24     tank, and I was present when this was done.  From the tank of the

25     DutchBat into the Vihor tank.  I really can't tell you after such a long

Page 27113

 1     time why that was the case.  I suppose that it was customary for the

 2     UNHCR forces, at least that's what my associate wrote.  And in

 3     confirmation that the fuel indeed was secured by DutchBat, there was a

 4     conversation between General Mladic and the commander of the DutchBat at

 5     the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac, and listening to that conversation, you

 6     can see and hear that the commander of the DutchBat promises to deliver

 7     fuel for the transport of Muslims to Tuzla.

 8        Q.   All right.  Precisely speaking about the transport of the Muslims

 9     to Tuzla, you said yesterday at page 56 that the fuel received was in

10     order to transport the Muslim population from Bratunac to Tuzla.  Is it

11     true that on the 13th of July, 1995, part of the Muslim population was

12     still in Potocari?

13        A.   Yes, it is true.

14        Q.   Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that indeed this fuel had

15     been received to transport the Muslim population from Potocari to Tuzla?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   We saw on the receipt of the Bratunac Brigade that the fuel was

18     received on the 13th of July, 1995.  The fuel was received while the

19     transport was in progress?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Is it true to say that at the time there was a dearth of fuel in

22     the Republika Srpska?  Maybe there is a translation problem.  Is it true

23     that at the time in July 1995 there wasn't enough fuel in the

24     Republika Srpska?  I'm being told --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  I am only following in English, and in English I am

Page 27114

 1     receiving the translation of what you are saying in French.  But you have

 2     to help me and tell me whether -- those who are following in B/C/S --

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Apparently there is a problem

 4     because the witness doesn't receive the translation in his language, so

 5     maybe there is a technical problem.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That I understood, but what I wanted to

 7     know is whether -- if he is the only one who is not receiving translation

 8     or whether there are others such as the accused?  You are receiving

 9     translation.  So the problem seems to be with the witness and not with

10     others, as far as I can see.  I see Mr. Nikolic nodding as well.

11             Are you receiving interpretation now of what I am saying?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can hear you but I

13     did not see the lady -- actually, I did not hear the interpretation of

14     her words whereas I hear the interpretation of yours.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So then it's not a technical problem on

16     his side, it's -- we need to check again with the booth that is

17     translating from French into B/C/S.  And I would kindly ask Madam Fauveau

18     to repeat her question.  You have it on the transcript, but if you would

19     need my assistance I will of course.

20             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

21     you very much.

22        Q.   Is it true, witness, that at the time in July 1995, there was a

23     dearth of fuel in Republika Srpska?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   Can it be said that without the help -- can we say that without

Page 27115

 1     the help of the international organisations, those 30.000 litres of fuel,

 2     it wouldn't have been possible to transport the Muslim population at the

 3     time?

 4        A.   I cannot say that.  But in any case, it made the transport easier

 5     for us.

 6        Q.   You're absolutely sure that this fuel had been received precisely

 7     for the transport of the Muslim population of Potocari towards the

 8     territory controlled by the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

10             MR. THAYER:  That question has been asked and clearly answered,

11     Mr. President.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

13             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would answer exactly what my

14     colleague has said.  I am now cross-examining, that's what I'm asking.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.  We are losing and wasting more time

16     like that, Mr. Thayer.  Please, if witness could answer the question,

17     please.

18             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you wish me to repeat the question?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Are you absolutely certain that those 30.000 litres of fuel were

22     received for the need to transport the Muslim population from Potocari

23     towards the territory which was under the control of the army of Bosnia

24     and Herzegovina?

25        A.   Yes, I'm sure.

Page 27116

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  I have no other question to ask from you.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Fauveau. [In

 3     English] Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning Your Honours.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Trisic.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   I am Drago Krgovic, and I am going to put some questions to you

 9     in relation to your testimony.

10             Mr. Trisic, in response to my colleague Mr. Lazarevic's question

11     yesterday, you mentioned at a certain point that a forward command post

12     of the Drina Corps was established in the Pribicevac sector.  Do you

13     recall saying that to my colleague Mr. Lazarevic?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   You testified before this Tribunal in the Blagojevic case,

16     transcript page from 19344 on, and on that occasion you described your

17     stay at Pribicevac in July 1995.  Do you recall testifying about that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Mr. Trisic, who did you go to Pribicevac at that time in July

20     1995?

21        A.   I went to Pribicevac with Mr. Davidovic, my friend, and the then

22     president of the executive board of the Bratunac municipality.

23        Q.   This was on the 9th of July, 1995; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Exactly.

25        Q.   When you came to Pribicevac, where did you go first?  The

Page 27117

 1     logistics base was there as well, of the Bratunac Brigade or, rather, of

 2     the 3rd Battalion?

 3        A.   When we came to Pribicevac, we first stopped off at the rear

 4     section -- sector of the 3rd Battalion that was located at Pribicevac.

 5        Q.   And you stayed there, as you said in the Blagojevic case, for an

 6     hour, two hours at the most?

 7        A.   Yes.  I stayed approximately for that long at Pribicevac, an hour

 8     or two.

 9        Q.   And you said that at one point in time while you were there in

10     the rear logistics base, General Gvero arrived also at Pribicevac?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  That's how it was.

12        Q.   Mr. Trisic, can you please tell us if he was escorted by anybody

13     or accompanied by anyone?  How did he come?  With which vehicle, do you

14     remember?

15        A.   Yes, I do remember.  It was a little bit unusual to me.  He

16     arrived in a private car with only a driver, and this was a bit unusual,

17     as far as I was concerned.

18        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to speak with General Gvero then?

19        A.   Yes, I did.  We sat together at a table.  We were drinking coffee

20     and a drink.

21        Q.   Did General Gvero tell you that he came to oversee the Srebrenica

22     operation, to propose some measures or to have any kind of activity, or

23     did you talk about everyday things?

24        A.   We mostly talked about everyday things.  It was a little bit

25     unusual, as far as I was concerned, because he didn't -- or, there wasn't

Page 27118

 1     much talk about the Srebrenica operation.

 2        Q.   Did General Gvero ask you to submit a report or anything like

 3     that to him?

 4        A.   No, no, he didn't.

 5        Q.   And did you leave that place to go to the front line or did you

 6     spend the whole time there at that table, as you described earlier?

 7        A.   We were in one place the whole time and that's where this

 8     conversation took place.

 9        Q.   And when did you return to Bratunac?  Did General Gvero leave at

10     the same time or did he stay at Pribicevac?

11        A.   After our conversation, Davidovic and I started back, and at the

12     same time, but in a separate vehicle, Mr. Gvero left too.

13        Q.   Do you recall the type of the vehicle in which General Gvero

14     arrived?

15        A.   Well, I couldn't say now.  It was a long time ago.  I don't

16     remember.

17        Q.   Did any of the Drina Corps senior officers stay at Pribicevac at

18     that time?  Were any of them at Pribicevac at that time when you were

19     there, if you remember?

20        A.   I really don't remember.  I really couldn't say, probably there

21     were some there, but anything that I would try to say would be just

22     speculation.

23        Q.   Did you perhaps see General Gvero suggesting any measures to

24     General Krstic, make any suggestions or ask him to take any steps or

25     actions or anything like that?

Page 27119

 1        A.   No, no.  Nothing like that happened.  I didn't see that.  Like I

 2     said, it was just an ordinary everyday conversation, so this was a bit of

 3     a surprise to me.

 4        Q.   Mr. Trisic, thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

 5     Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.

 7             MR. HAYNES:  Just a few questions, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Trisic, my name is Peter Haynes and I represent

11     Vinko Pandurevic, who at the time you were talking about was the

12     commander of the Zvornik Brigade.  Do you recall that?

13        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.  Do I remember ...

14        Q.   That in 1995, July of 1995, Vinko Pandurevic was the commander of

15     the Zvornik Brigade?

16        A.   Yes, yes, I remember that.

17        Q.   Now, I just want to ask you -- to follow on from some questions

18     Madam Nikolic asked you about the soldiers you saw in Potocari with the

19     insignia on their arms.  How many of them were there?

20        A.   I really couldn't give you a number.  In any case, it was

21     probably just a small number of soldiers.  It was a small room and it

22     couldn't hold a large number of soldiers.

23        Q.   And in terms of their dress, they were wearing ordinary

24     camouflage uniforms, and what struck you was the wolf insignia upon their

25     arms; is that right?

Page 27120

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  Exactly.

 2        Q.   And if you can't answer this, then you mustn't, but are we

 3     talking about one or two or -- as small a number as that?

 4        A.   I have no answer to that.

 5        Q.   Very well.  I wonder if you could just look at something for me.

 6     Could we have in e-court, please, 7D63 and page 6.  Do you recognise the

 7     insignia you saw on these few soldiers' arms on that sheet of paper, and

 8     if so, can you indicate which one it was?

 9        A.   I'm not sure.  I cannot recognise any.

10        Q.   So it comes to this, all you can recall is seeing a few soldiers

11     who had a wolf insignia on their arm; is that it?

12        A.   Yes, something like that.

13             MR. HAYNES:  Now, for this next series of questions,

14     Mr. President, I think we had better go into private session.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's do that, let's go into private session.

16             MR. HAYNES:

17        Q.   It --

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment.

19             MR. HAYNES:  I'm sorry.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27121











11 Page 27121 redacted. Private session.















Page 27122

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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21                           [Open session]

22             MR. HAYNES:

23        Q.   The English is C, the B/C/S is B.  Now, Mr. Trisic, you -- let me

24     explain what this document is because you won't have seen it before, I

25     don't think.  The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina apparently had the

Page 27123

 1     ability to intercept military communications between units of the army of

 2     Republika Srpska, and they recorded them and wrote them down.  And what

 3     you have on the right-hand side of your screen, in fact you may only have

 4     the Serbian version, is what was written down of a conversation they

 5     apparently intercepted, and the conversation is between you and somebody

 6     called Obrenovic on the 13th of July, at about 20 to 7.00 in the evening.

 7             Do you know who Major Dragan Obrenovic was in 1995?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

 9        Q.   And did you know that at that time, at about quarter to 7.00 in

10     the evening of the 13th of July, he was in command of the

11     Zvornik Brigade?

12        A.   No, I didn't know.

13        Q.   It's a long time ago, but do you remember talking to him, on the

14     evening of the 13th of July, about a broken down tank?

15        A.   I don't recall that conversation, but it's possible; and based on

16     this text, it's possible that we did have such a conversation.

17        Q.   So, if you don't recall the conversation, there is little point

18     in my asking you anymore about it; but reading this, does it refresh your

19     memory about the conversation you had with Dragan Obrenovic shortly

20     before 7.00 on the evening of the 13th of July?

21        A.   I could have had such a conversation.

22        Q.   Very well.  Thank you very much, Mr. Trisic.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you, to

25     Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

Page 27124

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

 2        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   My name is Nelson Thayer, and I will be asking you some questions

 5     on behalf of the Prosecution.  If my voice gives out, I apologise.  I'm

 6     slowly losing it this morning.

 7             You --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have another possibility, I mean, cutting short

 9     your cross-examination.

10             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I will take that to

11     heart.  Perhaps a long break.

12        Q.   Now, sir, you told us that even after Mr. Borovcanin assumed his

13     new duties with the special police brigade in 1994, you would see him

14     when he visited his parents in Bratunac.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, after the encounter with him that you told us about, late in

17     the day on 12 July, when was the next time you saw him?

18        A.   I don't know.  I can't remember when, but I probably did see him.

19     I mean, I did see him around.

20        Q.   Is it fair to say that you would see him with some regularity,

21     certainly with the same regularity that you saw him in 1993 and 1994,

22     when he was around visiting --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please speak into the

24     microphone.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  You heard that.

Page 27125

 1             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Did you understand my question, sir?  Do I need to repeat it?

 3        A.   Could you please repeat it.

 4        Q.   Did you continue to see Mr. Borovcanin following July 1995?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   When, sir, was the last time you were in contact, either directly

 7     or indirectly, with Mr. Borovcanin?

 8        A.   I can't remember right now.

 9        Q.   Well, can you give us a year?

10        A.   No, I cannot.  I can't remember.

11        Q.   Now, you testified as a Defence witness on behalf of

12     Colonel Blagojevic on the 17th of 18th of May, 2004.  Other than my

13     friends from Mr. Borovcanin's Defence team, what other representatives of

14     other accused, either in this case or other cases, have you been in

15     contact with?

16        A.   Well, I only met with the representatives of Mr. Borovcanin and

17     Defence counsel for Mr. Gvero.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thought I heard before Ms. Nikolic indicating

19     that she had met you as well?  Ms. Nikolic representing Mr. Nikolic.

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   Sir, we just need an audible answer.

22        A.   Yes, I apologise, that was two days ago here in The Hague at the

23     hotel.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Perhaps he can clarify whether he has met

25     anyone else in recent days, in the last few days.

Page 27126

 1             MR. THAYER:  Will do, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Have you understood His Honour's question, sir?  Have you met

 3     anyone else from any other teams in the last few days?

 4        A.   No, I haven't.  No.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Just one last question on this topic.  How many times did

 6     you meet with the Defence team for Mr. Borovcanin, and if you can recall,

 7     when?

 8        A.   I wouldn't be able to give you a number, but over the period of

 9     last five or six months, it may have been three, four, or five times, and

10     then again in The Hague when they were preparing me for this testimony.

11        Q.   Okay.  I want to take you back a little bit.  You were asked some

12     questions in your examination in chief about your service to the Bratunac

13     municipality, either in the capacity of Chief of Staff or later as

14     commander of the staff of the TO to your duties in the brigade.  I want

15     to turn your attention to 1992 and 1993.  That was a time, particularly

16     in late 1992 into the winter and then spring of 1993, of significant

17     military activity in your area of responsibility, was it not, sir?  From

18     late 1992 through the spring of 1993?

19        A.   Yes, that's true.

20        Q.   Are you familiar with some of the operations which were conducted

21     by the VRS which included elements from the Bratunac Brigade?  And let me

22     just throw out a couple of names to you to see if you recognise them:

23     Operation Proboj, meaning breakthrough, from November of 1992 to February

24     of 1993.  Do you remember that operation?

25        A.   No, no, not under that name at least.  I can't remember.

Page 27127

 1        Q.   I understand that you might not remember the particular code

 2     name.  How about Operation Pesnica, Fist, from approximately mid-January

 3     to late January of 1993?

 4        A.   I'm not familiar with these names.  There were operations, but

 5     the titles that you have just mentioned don't ring any bells,

 6     unfortunately.

 7        Q.   Okay.  The operations, whatever their names were, included the

 8     liberation of Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and then eastward towards

 9     Srebrenica.  Does that help you, sir?

10        A.   Yes.  Those were the operations that were taking place during the

11     first half of 1993.

12        Q.   And do you recall that as it happened on both sides of the

13     conflict, as it were, the Muslim inhabitants of those communities and

14     settlements because of these operations began to move into the Srebrenica

15     area?  Do you remember that, sir?

16        A.   What period are you referring to, please?

17        Q.   This period during which we have been speaking, these

18     operations and -- to liberate Cerska, Konjevic Polje, do you recall that

19     one of the effects of that was that the Muslim inhabitants of those

20     communities, as Serbs did in other communities when their areas were

21     attacked or taken over, fled towards the Srebrenica area and became

22     refugees in the Srebrenica area; do you recall that, sir?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And do you recall when General Morillon went to Srebrenica in

25     March of 1993, and then sometime after that, there were convoys of

Page 27128

 1     refugees from Srebrenica who clamored aboard to leave the enclave.  Do

 2     you remember that happening, sir?

 3        A.   I do.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, do you recall that during this entire period of time

 5     Mr. Borovcanin was the commander of the Bratunac police station?

 6        A.   In 1993, yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I want to show you one document to help square away some

 8     dates that you've provided us on a couple of issues.  In the Blagojevic

 9     case you testified that you were assistant commander for security and

10     intelligence in August of 1992, and that was at the transcript 9319 from

11     that case.  Yesterday, and then again today, I think, your recollection

12     was that it was September and October of that year.  And you additionally

13     testified that your recollection was that Mr. Borovcanin arrived in the

14     Bratunac area in early 1993.  I'd just like to show you one document, if

15     I could, that's 65 ter 68 -- I'm sorry, 3813.

16             What we have here, sir, is a report of a performance inspection

17     at the Bratunac public security station.  It was conducted on 22 and 23

18     August 1992.  This document is dated the 27th of August, 1992.  And it

19     basically concerns -- what it says, an inspection by a supervisor of the

20     SJB there in Zvornik, a supervisor named Sasa Blagojevic.

21             What I want to turn your attention to, sir, is page 2 of the

22     English, and that is page 2 of the B/C/S as well.  And in your version,

23     the original, there is a paragraph that begins:  "After all these talks

24     which were held at the Bratunac SJB, we agreed on a meeting with

25     representatives of the army and the municipal government."

Page 27129

 1             Do you see that paragraph, sir, it's the third bullet point on

 2     your page?  Just let me know if you're with me on this.

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   It says this meeting was attended by the president of the

 5     municipality, Mr. Ljubisav Simic; the chairman of the SDS, Miroslav --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Mr. Lazarevic.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  We never challenged the fact when Mr. Borovcanin

 8     arrived.  I mean, maybe I can help my friend by saying this that

 9     Mr. Borovcanin was at that period at the police station in Bratunac.  We

10     are not challenging the fact.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  You need to take notice of

12     that --

13             MR. THAYER:  I do, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- and proceed accordingly.

15             MR. THAYER:

16        Q.   It also indicates that the chairman of the SDS,

17     Miroslav Deronjic, and war commissioner, Zoran Tesic, on behalf of the

18     municipality were present.  It also indicates Colonel Dimitrije Sibinic,

19     and that's the commander whom you told us about yesterday, correct, sir,

20     under whom you served initially?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   And then it refers to staff sergeant Drago Nikolic on behalf of

23     the army, head of SJB Luka Bogdanovic, and commander of the police

24     station Ljubomir Borovcanin.  And then there are two other names,

25     Branimir Tesic and Budimir Lakicevic.

Page 27130

 1             My first question, sir, is:  Does this jog your memory at all

 2     about when it was that you were serving in the intel and security organ?

 3     Do you recall attending this meeting or learning about the meeting that's

 4     described here?

 5        A.   I don't think I was present at the meeting.  I don't believe so,

 6     and it is not indicated in the document either.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, there is a reference to a staff sergeant Drago Nikolic

 8     on behalf of the army.  Do you have any idea, sir, as to whether that

 9     Drago Nikolic referred to there, based on your service in the intel and

10     security organ, as well as the familiarity that you told us about earlier

11     in answer to my friend Madam Nikolic's questions with Drago Nikolic,

12     whether this is the same Drago Nikolic who is the accused in this case?

13        A.   I said that I had known Drago Nikolic, and as far as this

14     document is concerned and whether this is the same Drago Nikolic, I

15     suppose that it is.

16        Q.   Okay, sir.  I'd like to move on.  You were asked some questions

17     yesterday about some orders regarding disconnecting the telephone lines

18     in Bratunac during the Krivaja 95 operation.  Do you remember those

19     questions, sir?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   I'd just like to show you two quick documents on that topic.  The

22     first is 65 ter 3817, please.  And I apologise, we don't have an English

23     translation of this document, but it's a very short one so I just have a

24     couple of questions to put to you, sir.  We can see it's dated the 5th of

25     July, 1995.  It's from the command of your brigade to PTT in Bratunac

Page 27131

 1     from your commander, Colonel Blagojevic.  Can you just read what

 2     paragraph 1 says, sir?

 3        A.   It says here:  "Starting with the 5th of July, 1995, at 1200

 4     hours, until further notice all post and telecommunication services users

 5     shall be excluded from the PTT system, and as for the private telephones,

 6     they have to be switched off even for the local use.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologizes for not being able

 8     to interpret the meaning of word l-o-k-a-l-u precisely.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Okay, sir --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do we need to know what it means, l-o ... yes.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   Sir, is there another way for you to define this word, "lokalu,"

14     l-o-k-a-l-u, that we see here in paragraph 1?  Can you explain that to

15     us?

16        A.   This means that private telephones cannot be used even in

17     Bratunac.  Local calls are also banned, meaning you cannot even call a

18     fellow citizen in Bratunac.  This is the meaning of the word.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If we go to paragraph 2, what is that -- that

20     first line there say?

21        A.   Brigade commander, 881-122.

22        Q.   Okay, I apologise, sir.  Can you read to us what the text is

23     right after the number 2.  Can you tell us what that says there?

24        A.   "The following telephone numbers should not be switched off ..."

25     Do you want me to go through them?

Page 27132

 1        Q.   If you would -- we don't need you to read us the telephone

 2     numbers, but if you could just read us what the abbreviations are there?

 3        A.   Under 2, it says:  "The following telephone numbers should not be

 4     switched off:  The brigade commander, president of the municipal

 5     assembly, the SDS," which stands for the Serbian Democratic Party, "the

 6     chief of the MUP," which stands for the chief of the Ministry of the

 7     Interior, "NOMO, the director of the PTT," which stands for the post,

 8     telegraph and telephone, "and the director -- the general manager of

 9     Vihor."

10        Q.   And what is NOMO?

11        A.   NOMO stands for the chief of the department of the ministry of

12     Defence.

13        Q.   And in July 1995, who was chief of the MUP in Bratunac?

14        A.   I believe that it was Mr. Josipovic.

15        Q.   Okay, thank you, sir.  We're done with this document.

16             Now, you told us yesterday -- and I want to turn your attention

17     now to the planning stages of the Krivaja 95 operation.  You told us

18     yesterday that your brigade command reviewed and discussed both the

19     warning order as well as the plan for active combat operations which were

20     issued by the corps, correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And I believe you testified yesterday, and if I showed you your

23     brigade's book of reports and meetings, the 5 July combat order was

24     actually read out to the command staff.  And you can confirm that, right?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 27133

 1        Q.   Now, can we agree, sir, that you were in fact duty-bound to study

 2     that 2 July Drina Corps command combat order?

 3        A.   Yes, I did have that connection.

 4        Q.   Now, in --

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise to my colleagues --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  -- that he should just pay attention.  "I did

 8     have that connection," that's the answer which was recorded and I think

 9     if --

10             MR. THAYER:  Thank you.  I was just going to follow up on whether

11     that was ...

12             MR. LAZAREVIC:  And I believe it would be maybe useful for the

13     witness to have in front of him the document that my colleagues is

14     referring at.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

16             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.  I can call up the report

17     and meetings book if -- can we have P219, please.

18        Q.    And while we're waiting for the English, sir, on your screen do

19     you see the cover of a book with which you are familiar, the book of

20     reports and meetings for the brigade?  Do you see that, sir?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   Now, if we go to page 9 of the English, and that's also page 9 of

23     the B/C/S, I think you just agreed with me, but I'll show you the

24     document in any event.  Do you see where it says -- actually, we need to

25     go to page 10 of both documents.  At the top, at 1930 hours, which has

Page 27134

 1     been incorrectly, I think, translated in the English as 0730 hours, but

 2     do you see where it says:  "1930 hours, the brigade commander presented

 3     the order of the Drina Corps command to the command"?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   And that's what we were just talking about, right, sir?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I see we are coming up on a break.  I

 8     have some more involved documents to use with the witness.  Is it okay to

 9     take it a couple of minutes early?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I have a meeting --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I have a meeting now at 10.30, so I suggest that

13     the break will be of 30 minutes instead of 25, and it will give you

14     time -- also an opportunity to recover your voice.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Mr. Thayer, let's continue.

19             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Sir, I just wanted to follow up with you.  A question that I had

21     for you that gave rise to the intervention from my friend was with

22     respect to the Krivaja 95 combat order from the corps.  You were

23     duty-bound to review that, were you not?

24        A.   Yes, I was.

25        Q.   And just as a matter of clarification, can you tell us the

Page 27135

 1     difference between the commander and the chief within an SJB?

 2        A.   I apologise.  I did not understand your question.  What is the

 3     difference between ...

 4        Q.   Yes, sir.  Sometimes we see the term "commander," other times we

 5     see "chief" referred to.  Are you familiar with the differences in the

 6     positions within an SJB?

 7        A.   I really apologise.  Commander of security -- security commander?

 8     I really did not understand you.  I'm sorry.

 9        Q.   I think we're having -- we may be having some translation issues?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm not sure of that as yet.

11             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I just want to make sure --

13             MR. THAYER:  Within -- I'll just move on, Mr. President.  It's

14     just a point of clarification.

15        Q.   Now, sir, you were asked some questions yesterday by my friend

16     Mr. Zivanovic, on behalf of Colonel Popovic, about the Krivaja 95 plan

17     from the corps and what was done at the brigade level to implement that

18     combat order.  Do you remember those questions, sir?  There were some

19     notations on the Bratunac Brigade's copy of the Drina Corps order for

20     active combat operations.  Do you remember those questions?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Now, turning your attention to the questions concerning

23     Momir Nikolic's notations on the Bratunac Brigade copy that you saw

24     yesterday, and to save time I'll just refer to the documents.  If you

25     need to see them, I can certainly show them to you, but I think we can

Page 27136

 1     carry on with just a discussion about them.  Can we agree that the

 2     notations that were made by yourself, as well as Mr. Nikolic, were not

 3     really corrections.  They were notations to yourselves in implementing

 4     the task set by your superior command.

 5        A.   They were corrections and changes that would be entered into the

 6     text of the order of the Bratunac Brigade.

 7        Q.   And those changes were made as you and the other staff members

 8     were deciding how best to implement the intent of that combat order,

 9     right?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

11             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think it's just to specify.

12     Could my colleague specify what he means by "staff members"?  When he

13     says "staff," what are we talking about?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.  Madam Fauveau.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Is it brigade staff or something

16     else?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Sir, I'm referring to, for example, yourself and Mr. Nikolic.

20     You being a member of the command staff.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

22             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] President, I think this has to be

23     clarified.  I don't think the witness was a member of the military staff.

24     He was a member of the command of the brigade?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.  Thank you, Madam Fauveau.

Page 27137

 1             MR. THAYER:

 2        Q.   Sir, as chief of logistics, I'm just trying to keep it simple,

 3     when you received that order, you made notations on that copy, as did

 4     Mr. Nikolic, in the course of deciding how best to implement the intent

 5     of your superior command in drafting the brigade's corresponding combat

 6     order, correct?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  I made these corrections in the sense that the

 8     infantry weapons' ammunition should be taken only to our units that are

 9     in active combat, and that is for the Bratunac Brigade and only the

10     3rd Battalion.

11        Q.   And it should go without saying, sir, shouldn't it, that you

12     wouldn't be making changes that would violate or override what you

13     thought the intent of your superior command's order was.  Am I right?

14        A.   Yes, yes.  Correct.

15        Q.   Now, sir, based on your experience in your brigade, it's the

16     military police who are responsible for dealing with prisoners of war,

17     that is, guarding them, escorting them, for example, correct?

18        A.   Yes, correct.

19        Q.   And you don't have any reason to believe that that common

20     practice was changed in the case of the Bratunac Brigade combat order, do

21     you?

22        A.   Would you please repeat your question.

23        Q.   Sir, you don't have any reason to believe that the common

24     practice, the understood role of the military police, as you just told

25     us, involved guarding and escorting prisoners of war, you don't have any

Page 27138

 1     reason to believe that that was changed for any reason in the

 2     Bratunac Brigade combat order?

 3        A.   No, I don't have any reason.

 4        Q.   I want to turn your attention to --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we know any reference to common

 7     practice as by Mr. Thayer.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't understand.  I --

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Maybe it's my mistake but I don't follow.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, no.  May we have any reference to common

12     practice regarding the duties of military police.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I get you now.  Do you have any

14     reference?

15             MR. THAYER:  My reference, sir, is his answer to --

16     Mr. President, is his answer to my question at line 22 of page 31, asking

17     whether in his experience in the brigade, it was the military police who

18     were responsible for dealing with prisoners of war.  He understood my

19     question and he answered it clearly.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay.  I think you can proceed.  Go ahead.

21             MR. THAYER:

22        Q.   Now, sir, I want to take you back to your visit to the forward

23     command post at Pribicevac.  You were asked some questions by my learned

24     friend representing General Gvero.  I want to just read to you what you

25     said in the Blagojevic trial about your time with General Gvero.  And

Page 27139

 1     this is at page 9435 of the transcript.  You were asked the question:

 2     "Do you recall seeing anyone, any higher echelon officers from the corps

 3     or from the Main Staff?"

 4             And your answer was:  "General Gvero from the Main Staff of the

 5     VRS was there, and I went to see General Gvero together with

 6     Mr. Davidovic.  We had a coffee or some drinks, I can't remember exactly.

 7     And we talked for a while about the current problems."

 8             You were asked a follow-up question:  "What were the current

 9     problems that you talked about?"

10             And your answer was:  "Well, you know, the activities that were

11     being carried out around Srebrenica."

12             Now, this conversation occurred on 9 July, while the combat

13     activities were still ongoing.  So it's correct, sir, is it not, that

14     when you referred there in Blagojevic to the activities going on, you are

15     referring to -- naturally talking about the military activities that were

16     underway at the time?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Okay, sir.  I want to turn your attention to another area, the

19     materiel supplies during the Krivaja 95 operation.  I first want to

20     clarify a couple of details with you, and then we are going to look at

21     some records.  You had a rear service or logistics company of

22     approximately 20 men, and that was commanded by Captain Radosavljevic; is

23     that correct, sir?  Are you not receiving interpretation?

24             MR. THAYER:  I don't think the witness is receiving

25     interpretation.

Page 27140

 1             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 2             MR. THAYER:  He's looking at me --

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  That's what he's saying.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Will you repeat your question, please.

 5     Maybe --

 6             MR. THAYER:  I think we may need to find out exactly when we lost

 7     it because he's been giving me a funny look for a little while, which I

 8     thought was just me.

 9        Q.   Sir, can you tell us when you stopped receiving interpretation?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just repeat the question because the previous

11     question he had answered yes.  So it's only your last question.  Just

12     come and read it out again.

13             MR. THAYER:

14        Q.   Sir, you had a rear service logistics company of about 20 men

15     captained -- commanded by Captain Radosavljevic; is that correct?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you still not receiving interpretation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, I am receiving

18     interpretation.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  I see.  Okay.  Then you can, perhaps, answer the

20     question.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The logistics platoon company --

22     captain, the commander of the logistics platoon was Captain

23     Milos Radosavljevic.

24             MR. THAYER:

25        Q.   And where was your officer physically located?

Page 27141

 1        A.   My office was at the same place as the brigade command, at the

 2     building of the former tile factory called Kaolin.

 3        Q.   And just to follow up on a couple of questions, you testified

 4     that fuel would be taken by the brigade from the Vihor company's gas

 5     station, but you also had the capacity to store your own fuel at the

 6     brigade warehouse.  And can you confirm that you stored that fuel in

 7     barrels, that you had a capacity of storing up to a tonne to a tonne and

 8     a half of fuel?

 9        A.   These are capacities that apply to the fuel stored in metal

10     barrels, up to 200 litres.

11        Q.   Now, you talked about a couple of warehouses yesterday.  Do you

12     know where the MUP stored its materiel?  They certainly had a warehouse

13     somewhere in Bratunac for its logistic needs.  Do you know what that

14     location was, sir?

15        A.   Probably in the compound of the police station building.

16        Q.   Now, you were shown yesterday your 3 July request for equipment

17     and materiel to the Drina Corps command.  And to save time, I don't need

18     to go through it with you, but can you confirm that you recall that

19     request that you put to the corps command upon receiving the warning

20     order?

21        A.   Yes, yes, I recall that.

22        Q.   Now, I want to turn your attention now to the actual - and I'll

23     just use your abbreviation MTS - the materiel and technical equipment

24     that you did receive during the Krivaja 95 operation.  May we have 65 ter

25     3812, please.

Page 27142

 1             Do you remember giving a statement, sir, to the MUP in August of

 2     2003 at the Bratunac police station?

 3        A.   I remember giving a statement.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And do you see a copy of it before us?

 5        A.   Yes, I see it.

 6        Q.   If we could go to page 2 of the B/C/S, and that's page 4 of the

 7     English.  I wanted to ask you about something you said during this

 8     interview.  Referring to the Srebrenica operation in July 95 you stated,

 9     and I quote:  "The supply of units with combat and non-combat materiel

10     and technical equipment was carried out directly through the Main Staff

11     and the logistics of the corps."

12             We have to -- do you see that, sir?

13        A.   Could you please help me?

14        Q.   Sure, it's in about the middle of that paragraph.  You're talking

15     about Operation Srebrenica.

16        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  Yes.

17        Q.   What I want to ask you, sir, is can you explain to the

18     Trial Chamber how the Main Staff and the corps logistics organs

19     interacted to supply your brigade during the Krivaja 95 operation?  And

20     we're done with the document.  For example, what elements of the

21     Main Staff were working with the corps to accomplish the task?

22        A.   Probably the logistics organs of the Main Staff.

23        Q.   And who were the personnel that you were familiar with during

24     this period of time at the Main Staff logistics -- in the Main Staff

25     logistics organ?

Page 27143

 1        A.   In the technical service, for example, it was Lieutenant-Colonel

 2     or Colonel Cvijetic [phoen].  I would need to think about it now.  I

 3     can't remember exactly all the senior officers that -- well, I mostly had

 4     contacts with senior officers from the corps.

 5        Q.   Understood, sir, but when you talk about the Main Staff or

 6     working directly with the Main Staff in the corps logistics, can you

 7     explain what that process was during the Krivaja 95 operation?  How did

 8     they interact?  Can you just tell the Court how those two echelons worked

 9     together during the operation, based on your recollection and experience?

10        A.   I cannot really tell you about the cooperation between the

11     Main Staff and the corps organs.  As I said, mostly all the activities

12     that related to the brigade went through the logistics sector of the

13     corps, the Drina Corps.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's look at some documents.  If we could have

15     65 ter 3818 on e-court, please.  Now, sir, with Madam Usher's help, I'm

16     going to show you some documents that I think you've seen before.

17             MR. THAYER:  The copies in e-court are pretty hard to read so I

18     have the originals here, and if we could just keep them in order, and

19     maybe it would be best to put them on the ELMO, if we could.  Just one at

20     a time take them out of the plastic and put them on the ELMO, please.

21        Q.   You mentioned yesterday materiel lists, and we can see in the

22     upper left-hand corner that it says "materielni [phoen] list."  Is this

23     an example of what you were talking about, sir?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  That's the materiel list, materielni list.

25        Q.   Okay.  This is dated the 5th of July, and --

Page 27144

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   -- if we look at box four, it says "VP 7111."  Am I correct that

 3     that's the military post number for the Drina Corps command in Vlasenica?

 4        A.   Well, I really can't remember the number.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Well, next to that it says:  "H. Pijesak."  That, I

 6     presume, stands for Han Pijesak, right in that same box next to VP 7111,

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And the Main Staff is located there, correct, in July of 1995?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   We can see that this is a materiel list for various sizes of

12     ammunition ranging from 7.62 millimetre, all the way up to 105

13     millimetre, which I presume is a howitzer.  Do you agree, sir?

14        A.   Yes, yes, 105 millimetres.

15        Q.   Now, do you know whether the materiel in this document was

16     delivered in response to your 3 July request that we spoke about before;

17     or would there have been a separate request that was made by the brigade

18     which led to this materiel list and this ammunition being delivered?

19        A.   I would have to look at my request to the corps; for example,

20     here I have 30-millimetre bullet, that is item 5.  And as far as I can

21     remember, we didn't have that kind of materiel.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let's move to the next document, if we could, please, and

23     that's 65 ter 3819.  And this will be a 6 July, 1995, materiel list.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Ms. Fauveau.

Page 27145

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Microphone, please.  Try now.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It's not about an objection, but I

 3     just clarify a point because on the document we have still in front of us

 4     711, 11, this is the military post of what?  After that we speak about

 5     the staff.  Could the witness clarify where was the logistic bases of the

 6     Drina Corps, so that we would know what it's all about in this document.

 7     Because this military number 711, we would like to know what it is

 8     exactly.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Sir, did you understand the question?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  The depots could have been in different positions

13     which largely depended on the MTS which was stored in them.  As for this

14     document, we can see that the Tisca depot is where the ammunition was.

15     And as for Han Kram in Han Pijesak, that's where the quartermaster

16     supplies were stored; in other words, we are not talking about just one

17     depot or storage.

18        Q.   And, sir, the corps, as well as the Main Staff, had their own

19     logistics centres or depots, didn't they?

20        A.   Yes, that's true.

21        Q.   And do you remember that one of the Main Staff depots was known

22     as the 35th.  You recall that, correct?

23        A.   Well, yes, more or less.

24        Q.   Well, let's look at another document, sir.  Let's go to, if we

25     can have 3819.

Page 27146

 1             Sir, this is another materiel list dated 7 July, and for the

 2     record, we are looking at ERN 0663540.  This is 3820, 65 ter 3820.

 3     Again, do you see that there is ammunition being delivered in this

 4     materiel list, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MR. THAYER:  If we could scroll -- sorry.  If we could just maybe

 8     move the original to the bottom.  A little bit more, that's great.

 9        Q.   Do you see box 36, sir?  There is a handwritten notation in the

10     lower right-hand corner.  Do you see where it says that the listed

11     materiel came directly from the 35 POB?  Do you see that, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   So this is coming directly from the Main Staff --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just one moment.

15             MR. THAYER:

16        Q.   -- depot?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

18             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness -- can the

19     witness see the top of the document with the name of the person who sent

20     this equipment, or what is the origin of this materiel?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Can we do that, please?

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   Sir, I don't know if that helps you at all --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 27147

 1        Q.   -- seeing the top of the document.  But my question is really

 2     focused on --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment, Mr. Thayer.  Ms. Fauveau.

 4             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm not sure if there is a

 5     translation in English of this document, but if my colleague doesn't

 6     really know the contents of the document, in this case I don't think he

 7     can allege things which are simply not true.  On this document, one can

 8     read the data concerning the sender, and then you have the number of the

 9     military post, 7111, and then the place, Vlasenica.  So maybe the witness

10     can clarify this.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I do not assume, like Ms. Fauveau, that

12     you do not know the contents of this document; am I correct?

13             MR. THAYER:  You are correct, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  So you can proceed with your question.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Turning your attention to the bottom of the document -- sorry,

17     Madam Usher.  Do you see, sir is, where it says that the listed materiel

18     came directly from the 35 POB?  That's at the lower right-hand corner.

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   And that indicates, does it not, sir, that this materiel came

21     directly from that Main Staff logistics centre?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

23             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President, because

24     this document shows clearly who sent this materiel.  And on this document

25     you can see the military post 7111, Vlasenica, as the sender.

Page 27148

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can proceed.  I mean, the question is perfectly

 4     legitimate.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   Sir, let me try a third time.  That handwritten annotation down

 7     there in the box indicates, does it not, that this listed materiel came

 8     directly from the Main Staff's logistics centre of the 35th POB logistics

 9     centre.  Isn't that what it says in black and white, or blue and white?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

11             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my colleague

12     continues to say and persists that it comes directly from the staff.  I

13     don't say that it doesn't come from the 35th bases but not from the

14     staff, it's not on the document.  There is also the name of the person

15     who signed the document.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  The question is eliciting from the witness

17     precisely the source of this document.  So he is in a position -- if he

18     is in a position to answer, he will answer, especially since he has heard

19     what you have to say now.  Yes, please, Mr. Trisic, go ahead.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes what?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The supplies came directly from the

23     31st -- 35th logistics base.  There is the document in front of us

24     indicating that, and there is no way I can deny it.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 27149

 1        Q.   Now, sir, to save some time, I'm going to again ask the help of

 2     Madam Usher.  I just want to hand you a packet of some more original

 3     materiel lists.

 4             MR. THAYER:  And for the record, this contains 65 ter 3821, 3823,

 5     3824, and 32825.  And if you would just, Madam Usher, just give a packet

 6     to the witness so he can just go through them one by one.

 7        Q.   Sir, I just ask you to look at those one by one, and I would just

 8     ask you to, when you're done looking at them, confirm that those are all

 9     materiel lists for ammunition received during the Krivaja 95 operation.

10        A.   Yes.  Obviously the ammunition was received during the Krivaja

11     operation.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.  We're done with that packet, then.

13             Now, you were shown yesterday, and again let me know if you need

14     it, but you were shown a document that was dated Petrovdan 1995,

15     regarding the consumption of MTS from 10 July to 12 July that you sent to

16     the Drina Corps command.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   Yes, I remember that.

18        Q.   Okay.  You also said that that didn't necessarily mean that you

19     had used all that materiel, correct?

20        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

21        Q.   Now, in the Blagojevic case, you testified that you would not

22     receive any accounting or receipt from the subordinate command of how the

23     materiel was used, and that was at page 9324.  Do you remember that, sir?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now in your interview with the OTP, at pages 26 and 27,

Page 27150

 1     you said that in relation to that consumption document, and I quote:  "An

 2     operations man in the unit would know how much was actually used."  And

 3     you continue that:  "The operations organs were ones who take control of

 4     how much each unit used of ammunition because operations organs know

 5     which unit was involved in the operations."

 6             Do you remember saying that?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Can you just tell the Trial Chamber briefly when you would make

 9     your assessments of the brigades needs, would you have to rely on the

10     operations organ, therefore, in order to properly assess the needs and

11     make the required requests, or would you rely on some other method of

12     doing that?

13        A.   As you have just said it, that would be the right order of

14     things.

15        Q.   Okay.  You were asked some questions this morning about fuel that

16     was consumed and received on the -- on the 13th of July.  I want to ask

17     you some questions related to that topic.  May we have 65 ter 3827,

18     please.  And with Madam Usher's help, I am going to hand you some

19     originals.  This is a packet of fuel-related materiel lists I am handing

20     out to you.

21             Now, sir, can you look at the first two.  Those are -- and then

22     I'll ask you about the document that is on the screen.  The first two

23     documents there are dated July 8th and 10th of 1995, for 800 and 400

24     litres respectively.  And for the record this is 65 ter 3826 and 3822.

25     Do you see those two documents?  Those are the two documents I am

Page 27151

 1     referring to, sir, for 800 and 400 litres?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Do you have any recollection of what that -- those fuel

 4     deliveries were for?

 5        A.   Well, I believe for the activities of the brigade.  I can't be

 6     more specific.  These are very low quantities, 400 litres, 600 litres.  I

 7     really can't remember.

 8        Q.   That's fine, sir.  If you just put those two documents to the

 9     side, then, and let's turn our attention to the document that's on the

10     screen, and that will be the next original.  If you would just look at

11     the next original in that packet after those first two ones that I gave

12     you, because the e-court version, as you can see, is illegible.  So if

13     you can pull those two top documents and put them to the side, and then

14     the next document, if you could put that next to you on the ELMO, we will

15     be able to see more clearly.

16             MR. THAYER:  We're going to need your assistance, again, Madam.

17             If we can just put that document that Mr. Trisic has in his hand

18     on the ELMO, I think we will be able to read it a little easier.

19        Q.   As we can see, this is a materiel list for July 12th, 1995,

20     showing 5.000 litres of D-2 diesel fuel being delivered.  Do you see

21     that, sir?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Now, that's a substantial amount of fuel, is it not?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   If we could go to 3828, and that's going to be the next document

Page 27152

 1     in your stack there, sir.  If we can put that next document on the ELMO.

 2     We're done with that one.  Again, this is another materiel list dated 12

 3     July for 2.000 litres of diesel fuel, D-2.  Do you see that, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.  But you have misspoken, it doesn't say "we request"

 5     but "we have received."

 6        Q.   Understood, understood, sir.  This is fuel that -- that is coming

 7     to you that you were receiving.  And on that note, when you say that this

 8     isn't fuel that you requested, what do you mean by that?

 9        A.   Well, given the date, the 12th of July, this fuel could only have

10     been used for the buses that transported the Muslims.

11        Q.   Okay, sir.  And if we could go to the next document in your pile,

12     put that on the ELMO, and this is 65 ter 3829, we see that there is 6.000

13     litres of diesel fuel, D-2, being delivered to your brigade that day.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, you were shown --

16             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Madam Usher, I think we're actual done

17     with this packet now.

18        Q.   You were shown a couple of documents by my learned friend from

19     the Miletic team that showed the 30.000 litres of UNHCR fuel coming in

20     the next day on the 13th.  Do you remember that?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   And then we see, if you remember, the Vihor or the materiel list

23     that -- dated the 14th, showing the fuel going to the Vihor company, and

24     that was dated on the 14th.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27153

 1             MR. THAYER:  Now, may we have 4D00613 on e-court, please.  And --

 2     I'm sorry.  We're going to have to ...

 3        Q.   I'm going to show you a couple of originals that you were shown

 4     copies of yesterday.  The first is the handwritten document, if we could

 5     just put that on the ELMO.  Do you recognise that document, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   And, if we look at number 2(a) there, it says that you received

 8     from the Drina Corps and the Main Staff 18.300 litres.

 9        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

10        Q.   And if we could look at the typewritten version.  And do you see

11     that again, on the typewritten version, specified as D-2 diesel, coming

12     from the Drina Corps and the Main Staff?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Now, sir, I can -- well, let's just take a moment, and if we

15     could look at 3816, 65 ter 3816, please.  And we'll need to go a couple

16     of pages ahead in the B/C/S to the handwritten version, and I have here

17     the original.

18             This document, sir, is an overview of the fuel consumed for the

19     month of June by your brigade; is that correct?  It's dated 3 July for

20     the month of June.

21        A.   Yes, that's that.

22        Q.   And under 2(a), the same part of the previous report that we saw

23     before, the same area of the form, it says:  "From the Drina Corps

24     command, 1.200 litres of D-2 diesel."  Do you see that, sir?

25        A.   I do.

Page 27154

 1        Q.   And there is no references to the Main Staff there?

 2        A.   Yes -- well, you're right.  There is no references.

 3        Q.   Now, I could take you through the April and May overviews that

 4     you sent to the Drina Corps, the same form, and I can show you that there

 5     is no reference to the Main Staff in those documents either.  Will you

 6     take my word for that, or I can show them to you if you like?  I'm just

 7     trying to save a little bit of time.

 8        A.   I'll take your word for that.

 9        Q.   Sir, is it fair to say that the reason why the July overview of

10     fuel consumption refers to receiving the fuel from the Drina Corps and

11     the Main Staff is because of the large amounts of fuel that was

12     requisitioned on the 12th of July to evacuate the civilian population out

13     of Potocari?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.  We're done with those documents.  It will

16     be over soon, sir.

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. THAYER:  Now, may we have 65 ter 3833 on e-court, please.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

20             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just like to --

21     if my colleague can help us in letting us know, because he keeps using

22     the word "65 ter," but I think -- I've never seen this document added on

23     the 65 ter list of the Prosecution.  I would like to know when this

24     document was added on that list.  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 27155

 1             MR. THAYER:  These documents were added to our 65 -- they were

 2     given 65 ter numbers in connection with placing them on the list of

 3     documents for cross-examination.  They were not part of our initial

 4     65 ter list of exhibits.  That's the simple question from my friend.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. --

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Then I would like to know, Mr. President, under

 7     what permission and who had allowed the Prosecution to add and to give

 8     these 65 ter numbers.  If they want to give them a number and call it

 9     Prosecution number, it's fine; but this case will never end the way we're

10     going right now with the Prosecution using witnesses on the stand to get

11     additional evidence.  They are not using these documents to contradict

12     the witnesses.  They are adding hundreds and hundreds of documents

13     constantly without getting any permission from the Trial Chamber to get

14     these documents; and, moreover, all of these documents were not

15     communicated to the Defence until the minute that the witness was on the

16     stand.  Once again, Mr. President, the Prosecution is abusing the

17     Trial Chamber's order and this trial will never end if we continue this

18     way.  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

20             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would also ask the permission to

21     have a cross-examination on what was said about the fuel which, according

22     to the Prosecution, was received by the staff.  As my colleague said, we

23     didn't have the list of those documents when we did our

24     cross-examination.  Therefore, this subject was not at all treated during

25     the direct examination, Mr. President.

Page 27156

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Microphone.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  We join the objection of my learned friend,

 3     Mr. Bourgon.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 5             MR. THAYER:  If I may, Mr. President.  This is cross-examination.

 6     In addition to that, almost all of these documents were referred to

 7     during this witness's prior testimony.  That's how I found most of them.

 8     So the claim of surprise and this refrain about the 65 ter numbers, I

 9     think is just wasting time.  If I can continue my examination, I've asked

10     for an exhibit and I'm prepared to continue.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And with regard to Madam Fauveau's, I

12     suppose we need to deal with that when you're finished your

13     cross-examination.  One moment, please.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, let's deal with it.  These problems do arise

16     from time to time, and they have arisen in the past already and we have

17     dealt with them.  So what we are going to say is basically nothing new.

18     We have ruled before, and we repeat it, that there is no legal basis

19     for -- which would entitle us to restrict the Prosecution from making use

20     of documents which are not on the 65 ter list if the need for such

21     document arises out of the examination-in-chief or the testimony of the

22     witness.  So that's point number 1.

23             Having said that, it's not to be ruled out that as regards

24     specific documents there may be a ground for an objection, and if there

25     is, we will deal with those objections on an ad hoc basis.  That's it.

Page 27157

 1     So let's proceed.

 2             And you can, perhaps, start thinking of concluding your

 3     cross-examination, Mr. Thayer.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, during our interlude did you have the aerial image in

 6     front of you?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, I did.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I know the directions might be a little counter-intuitive,

 9     but I just want to know whether you, first of all, have been able to

10     orient yourself to various locations in Bratunac, having looked at this

11     aerial image.  And I'm just going to ask you if you can mark a couple of

12     locations that you've talked about, and then we'll move on.

13        A.   Yes, yes.  It's clear.  The photograph is clear to me.  And if it

14     refers to the warehouses, the MTS warehouse is there, it should be there.

15     The warehouse of the quartermaster is here, in these buildings, in this

16     street, these buildings here.

17        Q.   I need to just stop you right there.  Can you put an MTS where

18     the -- where that warehouse is located.  And is --

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And is that the former TO warehouse that you talked about or is

21     that the tobacco station?

22        A.   This was the tobacco warehouse that I described as the MTS, and

23     we used it to store ammunition.  Across the street, where I marked the IN

24     materiel and equipment, that is the former TO warehouse that we took over

25     and that's where we stored articles of food, quartermaster supplies,

Page 27158

 1     including clothing and footwear.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And if you could locate your house in July of 1995 and

 3     just place your initials -- draw an arrow pointing to the house and then

 4     just place your initials next to the house.  And just to give you a

 5     little heads-up, I am also going to ask you to point out where Mr. -- or

 6     General Borovcanin's apartment was, in case you need to make some room

 7     for that.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Okay.  Can you explain to us what you've marked, sir?  It's hard

10     for me to see.

11        A.   The first arrow marks the building where I lived, and the

12     initials there are TD.  The second arrow marks the place where

13     Mr. Borovcanin lived, and these are the initials BG.

14        Q.   Okay.  Would you please just place or write your name and today's

15     date in the lower right-hand corner of this aerial?  Is that too far to

16     the right?  It's okay.  Okay.  Today is the 21st of October, sir.

17        A.   Today's date, 21st.

18        Q.   And we are done with that document.  Thank you.

19        A.   You're welcome.

20             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Madam Usher.

21        Q.   Sir, I want to turn your attention to the 12th of July, 1995, and

22     I want to ask you about some of the individuals and units that you

23     observed there.  And I want to turn your attention in particular to your

24     OTP interview, and I want to read you a couple of sections from that just

25     to put it in context for you.

Page 27159

 1             MR. THAYER:  I've given a copy of the B/C/S translation to the

 2     translators in the booth, and I've got a copy for you there.  For my

 3     friends, this is at pages 36 to 37 of the transcript, and then pages 75

 4     to 77 of the transcript.

 5        Q.   And, sir, I just want to let you know up front, it wasn't

 6     entirely clear to me what your recollection was at the time based on this

 7     interview, so I want to give you an opportunity to read the questions and

 8     answers and simply ask you what your best recollection is now with regard

 9     to these topics.  And if it's the same, fine; if it's not, that's fine as

10     well.

11             Do you see where I've highlighted the questioning where it begins

12     with the question:  "Who was the head of the Main Staff security?"  Do

13     you see that sir, in your version?

14        A.   Yes, I see it.  I said here that that would be Colonel Beara.

15        Q.   And you're -- you're asked the question:  "Who was the head of

16     the Main Staff security?"

17             Your answer, to be fair was:  "I think it was Colonel Beara."

18             The question is:  "Was Colonel Beara there as well when you were

19     in Potocari?"

20             And you answered:  "I think he was."

21             You were asked:  "Do you recall what he was doing?"

22             And your answer was:  "The security organs are doing their job.

23     They don't allow anybody to interfere."

24             You were asked:  "Was anybody else from security there, in terms

25     of an officer?"

Page 27160

 1             You answered:  "I don't know.  I'm not sure.  They were coming

 2     and going, so at that moment I'm not so sure so I can't tell."

 3             You were asked:  "Do you know who Popovic is?"

 4             And you answer:  "I know."

 5             You're asked:  "Who is he?"

 6             You answer:  "Also security organ."

 7             You're asked:  "From which unit?"

 8             And you answer:  "From the corps."

 9             You were asked:  "Was he present in Potocari on the 12th when you

10     were there?"

11             And you answer:  "I'm not sure.  It's possible, most likely."

12             Do you remember that questioning and answering, sir?  And I'll

13     just give you a moment to catch up.

14        A.   Yes, yes, I remember.

15        Q.   Okay.  If you turn your attention to the second document that you

16     were handed.  This is an excerpt from later on in the interview at pages

17     75 to 77, and there is a section there that I've highlighted for you.

18             You were asked the question:  "Going back to something that I'd

19     asked you about at length.  July 12th, 1995, in Potocari, was Zivanovic

20     in Potocari when you were there?"

21             You answered:  "I think he was."

22             You were asked:  "Can you explain where you saw him?"  And then

23     you were asked a series of questions.  You were asked when you saw

24     Zivanovic.

25             And you answered:  "During that time, before the buses came, when

Page 27161

 1     that mass of people was gathering, they had some conversation, and I

 2     could also see from these pictures shown today that they had some

 3     contacts with the commander of the Dutch battalion."

 4             And you were asked:  "They being Zivanovic and who?"

 5             You answered:  "Zivanovic, Mladic, Krstic, that's the team."

 6             You were asked:  "That's the team, those three officers?  What

 7     other officers were in that group?  Nikolic?"

 8             And you answer:  "I cannot tell that Nikolic was in the staff of

 9     that operation."  And to be fair this is a reference, I believe, to

10     Momir Nikolic, not the accused Drago Nikolic.

11             You were asked:  "What I'm saying is, was he there with that

12     group of officers?"

13             You answered:  "I don't know.

14             You were asked:  "Popovic?"

15             You answer:  "It's possible."  [Realtime transcript read in error

16     "yes"]

17             You were asked:  "Well, it's possible.  Did you see him there?"

18             And your answer was:  "Yes.  They were there.  That was their

19     job."

20             MR. THAYER:  I see my --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I was going to let you finish and listen to

22     your question before I --

23             MS. NIKOLIC:  It's just my point to ask my colleague to read

24     questions and answers from the interview until the end, because he's

25     cutting the sentences.

Page 27162

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And there is here an error in transcript.  There

 3     was the answer, it is page 55, line 6, I believe.  The answer was:  "It's

 4     possible," and here is "yes," as to the accused Popovic.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  That can be clarified with the witness once the

 6     question is put, or straight away.  But I wouldn't like to interrupt you,

 7     however, you need to take account now of what Ms. Nikolic has asked you.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I just skipped over a few

 9     sentences that didn't have anything to do with anybody.  These portions,

10     I am reading word for word what is in the interview and --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's proceed.  And if there is an

12     objection, then we'll hear it.

13             MR. THAYER:

14        Q.   You were asked, again:  "Popovic?"

15             And you answer:  "It's possible."

16             You were asked:  "Well, it's possible.  Did you see them there?"

17             And your answer was:  "Yes, they were there.  That was their

18     job."

19             You were asked:  "They were there.  Tell me who?  They were

20     there, that was their job.  Who?"

21             And you answer:  "The command of the Main Staff."

22             And you were asked:  "Who else?  Who else was there that you

23     recall?  I don't want you to tell me who you think was there.

24             And your answer was:  "Beara.  I don't know the others.  I

25     couldn't know all of those people.  There were some people I didn't

Page 27163

 1     know."

 2             And the question then is:  "Beara and Popovic were there with

 3     Mladic, Krstic, Zivanovic?"

 4             Your answer is:  "Yes."

 5             The question is:  "Did you see Popovic or Beara directing anyone

 6     to do anything?"

 7             And your answer was:  "I cannot say anything about that."

 8             And you were asked:  "Cannot say anything about it?"

 9             And you answered:  "I don't know.  I didn't see."

10             And then you were asked:  "Do you know how long they were there

11     for, Popovic, Beara?"

12             And your answer is:  "I cannot tell that for sure.  They could

13     have been there and then gone to the Main Staff and then come back the

14     next day, but I didn't follow them."

15             And I'll just let you catch up your reading, sir.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  Sorry that took a little while, but I wanted to put your

18     statement in the interview in full context.  This portion that we just

19     read together where --

20        A.   Yes, yes.  Sir, you can see that Mr. Dean Manning put leading

21     questions to me and I answered yes, probably, I don't know.  Like that.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, that's why I asked you the questions in the way I

23     did, sir, and asked you to read all material.  Can you tell the

24     Trial Chamber what is your best recollection, as you sit here today, as

25     to whether you saw Colonel Beara in Potocari on the 12th of July?

Page 27164

 1        A.   It was a long time ago.  I said here yes, I think so, yes.  In

 2     the end I said I don't know.  However, as I say, in such a group of

 3     people, I am not sure about that any longer.  I cannot assert that I

 4     know, that I do have an idea.  You can see what the questions are here.

 5     Was he there?  And I think -- and I say yes, probably, perhaps.  I think

 6     pressure was exerted on me and I succumbed, as far as some things are

 7     concerned.  I am not sure that that's the way it is, and what I said is

 8     stated in the document.

 9        Q.   And how about Colonel Popovic?  As you sit here today, what is

10     your best recollection about whether you saw Colonel Popovic in Potocari

11     on the 12th of July?

12        A.   I can say that it seems more likely to me when I said "yes" that

13     I saw him at some -- on some image or footage or photo from Potocari.  I

14     don't know if it was or wasn't.  It probably was that I did see him.

15        Q.   And just so we're clear on the record, sir, when you say, "It

16     probably was that I did see him," do you mean that it probably was that

17     you saw him in Potocari or that you saw him on footage or a photo from

18     Potocari?

19        A.   On a video clip.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, was it the Chamber's intention to

22     take the break at 12.30 or --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  It was our intention to start with the next witness

24     by that time.  You've gone longer and longer and sometimes unnecessarily,

25     Mr. Thayer, in our opinion.  So will you bring your cross-examination to

Page 27165

 1     an end here, and we start with the new witness after the break, please?

 2             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, if I may continue with a couple of

 3     areas.  I estimated two hours, frankly --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's well past that.

 5             MR. THAYER:  We have, Mr. President.  Some of that time has been

 6     devoted to discussing other matters.  I do have some discrete areas I

 7     would like to address.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long, Mr. Thayer?

 9             MR. THAYER:  If I could have another 20 minutes, Mr. President.

10     And if we can take the break now, I can try to cut it down.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a 25-minute break and then we'll see.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's continue and finish, Mr. Thayer.

16             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Good afternoon again, sir.

18        A.   Good afternoon to you, too.

19        Q.   I want to turn your attention to the various units which you saw

20     on the 12th of July in Potocari, and I want to read back to you some of

21     your testimony in Blagojevic.  And this is at page 9365.

22             You were asked by Mr. Karnavas:  "How did you recognise them?

23     How did you recognise them?"

24             And you answered:  "The troops of the VRS had a certain kind of

25     uniform, of course, but I knew that they were from other units because I

Page 27166

 1     didn't know them.  Some of them even had an insignia indicating that they

 2     belonged to, for example, the Zvornik Brigade.  For example, their

 3     insignia were wolves from the Drina River.  That's what I recognised."

 4             Now, I'd ask you just to turn that document over that's on the

 5     ELMO there, sir.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Madam Usher.

 7        Q.   Do you see the circular patch on the left?  And this 7D00063, you

 8     were shown this earlier.  Do you see that little circular patch there on

 9     the lower left with the howling wolf?  Can you read for us what those

10     letters say in the semicircle around the howling wolf's head.

11        A.   It says:  "Wolves from the Drina."

12        Q.   Okay.  And that's exactly what you testified you remembered

13     seeing, back in Blagojevic, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  Now you -- and we're done with that.  Thank you.  You also

16     testified in Blagojevic, and this is at page 9433, and also in your OTP

17     interview at page 31, that you saw protection regiment soldiers in

18     Potocari on 12 July.  Can you confirm that you, in fact, saw soldiers

19     from the protection regiment on that day in Potocari?

20        A.   That's what I said.

21        Q.   And do you stand by that recollection that you -- you had when

22     you testified, sir?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, yesterday, at page 27069, you testified that there

25     were Drina Corps military policemen at Potocari on the 12th of July.  And

Page 27167

 1     at page 27074, you said the following in relation to Momir Nikolic

 2     coordinating various units.  You said, and I quote:  "I saw him in

 3     communication with other soldiers, the corps police was there as well,

 4     and I saw this as some sort of coordination in the work of all these

 5     units."

 6             Now, in Blagojevic you testified at 9429 to 9430, you were asked

 7     the question:  "So when you were in Potocari, did you see both the

 8     Bratunac Brigade military police and the corps military police like you

 9     say here," referring to your interview.  And from the transcript I see,

10     there is no interpretation of your answer.

11             But then you were asked a follow-up question:  "And they were

12     providing security for the Muslims, like you say here?"

13             And your answer is:  "Yes."

14             My question to you, sir, is:  Is the Bratunac military police and

15     the Drina Corps military police providing security for the Muslims the

16     kind of activity you saw Momir Nikolic coordinating that day?  Is that an

17     example of the kind of coordination which you saw that day?

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic.

19             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has not

20     been read the whole text to the end.  Especially on page 249 where,

21     before the question quoted by my learned friend, the witness was faced

22     with his interview given to Dean Manning, i.e., the Office of the

23     Prosecutor.  In other words, the context of the question that has just

24     been put to the witness now does not correspond to the context of the

25     question put to the witness in the Blagojevic case.

Page 27168

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  I think the context is very clear, Mr. President, of

 3     what I'm talking about.  If the witness doesn't understand the question,

 4     he can clearly say so.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's proceed.

 6             MR. THAYER:

 7        Q.   Again, sir, you testified that you saw the Drina Corps military

 8     police and the Bratunac Brigade military police providing security for

 9     the Muslims.  And you testified yesterday that you saw Momir Nikolic

10     coordinating various units, including his contacts with the Drina Corps

11     military police; you specifically said that yesterday.  So my question to

12     you is:  Is providing security for the Muslims the type of activity that

13     Momir Nikolic was coordinating, this coordination among units of the

14     Bratunac Brigade and the Drina Corps military police?

15        A.   Yes, that's the way I saw it.  That's the way I understood it.

16        Q.   Okay, sir.  Just a couple of areas and then we'll be done.  In

17     the Blagojevic trial, sir, you probably recall being read an entry from

18     that Bratunac Brigade book of reports and meetings, and the entry was

19     from 16 October, 1995, and there is a reference to Momir Nikolic

20     informing the people at the meeting, among whom was yourself, about

21     certain activities that were being undertaken.  And what he said in the

22     report, and that's P00219 for the record, is:  "We are currently engaged

23     in tasks issued by the VRS Main Staff (asanacija)."

24             Now, in Blagojevic, sir, you were asked the following question by

25     Mr. McCloskey, and this is at page 9448.

Page 27169

 1             Question:  "And you don't know anything about the reburial of

 2     over a thousand people from Glogova to Zeleni Jadar and other places in

 3     September and October 1995?"

 4             And your answer was:  "As I said yesterday, I did hear about

 5     those activities, but I assert that the Bratunac Brigade neither provided

 6     security for, neither provided the transportation means nor the fuel for

 7     those activities."

 8             Then you were asked:  "So how do you know about it?"

 9             And you answered:  "It was said here yesterday that Nikolic

10     reported, informed the command that he had undertaken those activities

11     according to orders from the VRS Main Staff."

12             And then you were asked:  "You said you didn't know anything

13     about it?"

14             And your answer was:  "Until that point, until the day when he

15     informed us; namely, I didn't know why the operation was going on.  I

16     wasn't aware of it.  I only found out about it after Captain Nikolic had

17     informed us about it at this meeting."

18             Then you were asked:  "So you're now telling us that this meeting

19     in October, that's in the meeting minutes where asanacija is referred to,

20     was, in fact, a reburial of the bodies operation as far as you know?"

21             And your answer was:  "Captain Nikolic did not give us any

22     explanations, and we didn't ask him to clarify anything why or what."

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

24             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I apologise.  I really don't want to interrupt my

25     colleague, but we heard in B/C/S channel that not whole portion was

Page 27170

 1     translated to the witness.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Which part in particular, Mr. Lazarevic?

 3             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I must say I am not hundred per cent sure, but

 4     somewhere from line 21 to 25, page 62.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I am going to read those four lines,

 6     slowly, and they will be interpreted and translated.

 7             "And your answer was:  'Until that point until the day that he

 8     informed us; namely, I didn't know why the operation was going on.  I

 9     wasn't aware of it.  I only found out about of it after Captain Nikolic

10     had informed us about it at this meeting.'

11             "Then you were asked:  'So you are now telling us this meeting in

12     October, that is in the meeting minutes where," there is something

13     missing here, "was, in fact, a reburial of the bodies operation as far as

14     you know."

15             And I will finish the last two lines:  "And your answer was:

16     'Captain Nikolic did not give us any explanations, and we did not ask him

17     to clarify anything why or what.'"

18             And your question.

19             MR. THAYER:  And just to complete the record, Mr. President, the

20     missing word is "asanacija."

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Asanacija.  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   My question, sir, for you is:  Do you stand by that testimony you

24     gave in Blagojevic case?

25        A.   I do.  I stand by my testimony given in the Blagojevic case.

Page 27171

 1        Q.   And your testimony is that no fuel, personnel, vehicles or

 2     equipment were, to your knowledge, used by your brigade for that

 3     operation.  Is that what you're telling the Trial Chamber?

 4        A.   Yes, that is what I am claiming is the truth.

 5        Q.   Finally, sir, you were asked some questions about a man named

 6     Resid.  Do you remember that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In fact, that man's full name is Resid Sinanovic, correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you know what happened to Resid Sinanovic?  Do you have any

11     idea where he is today?

12        A.   As far as I know, he is no longer among the living.

13        Q.   And in fact, sir, are you aware that he still listed as missing?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.  Yes, one -- don't rush.

17             Mr. Bourgon.

18             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just like to

19     come back to the last question which was asked by my colleague, just

20     clarify the record.  My colleague asked and -- I'm looking for the right

21     quote, where he said:  "You -- and your testimony is that no fuel,

22     personnel, vehicles or equipment were, to your knowledge, used by your

23     brigade for that operation.  Is that what you're telling the

24     Trial Chamber?"

25             And the witness said:  "Yes, that is what I'm claiming is the

Page 27172

 1     truth."

 2             However, the word "operation" here, if I look a few lines before

 3     that, the witness doesn't know what the operation is.  I would like my

 4     colleague to confirm what operation is witness is talking about when he's

 5     answering that question.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We could ask the witness himself,

 7     actually, what he understood by the word "operation."

 8             What operation you believed that Mr. Thayer was referring you to,

 9     Mr. Trisic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I supposed that we were talking

11     about the operation of which Mr. Nikolic reported to the Main Staff;

12     i.e., that upon the order of the Main Staff an asanacija, asanacija of

13     the terrain was underway.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

15             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, this is exactly the point because he

16     said earlier on at page 63, lines 3 to 4:  "Captain Nikolic did not give

17     us any explanations.  We did not ask him to clarify anything why or

18     what."

19             So asanacija that the witness is talking about is not what was

20     suggested to him by Mr. McCloskey in his cross, that it was the reburial

21     operation.  That's what I would like to confirm from the witness,

22     Mr. President.

23             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I read the prior testimony --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can leave it at that.

25             MR. THAYER:  -- it was clear what was asked and what was

Page 27173

 1     answered.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can leave it at that.  Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  I have two things.  As the first, page

 4     64, line 19, I think that the answer of the witness "yes" is wrongly

 5     translated.  It is opposite.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  What according --

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  About missing.  So I suggest to put him this

 8     question again.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Trisic, you were asked about

10     Resid Sinanovic, and you said that he is no longer among the living.  And

11     then you were asked:  And in fact, sir, are you aware that he is still

12     listed as missing?"

13             In the transcript we have you as saying -- as answering "yes."

14     Is that what you said?  In other words --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I didn't know that he

16     was on the missing list.  The way I understand it is that his body has

17     never been found, and that was the gist of my answer.  That's what I

18     answered.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  The next matter.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would ask the Trial Chamber as well to put some

21     questions to the witness as for common practice of military police

22     Bratunac Brigade in dealing with prisoners of war and the presence of

23     Drina Corps military police in Potocari in -- on 12th of July, 1995.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

25             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the -- my friend had ample

Page 27174

 1     opportunity and discussed these specific portions of the combat orders

 2     which I, therefore, followed up on.  There was other testimony and

 3     questions on these issues.  I don't see any reason or need for any

 4     clarification.  I think the questions that I asked were clear.  The

 5     answers were clear.  I don't think there is any ambiguity or need for

 6     further detail on this.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Let me consult with my colleagues.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic, we don't -- we have discussed it and

10     don't see the need for us to put these questions.

11             Mr. Lazarevic -- I see Mr. Ostojic --

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  You will be soon, Mr. Lazarevic.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  I will be seeking leave of Court to inquire of this

15     witness on matters that were not elicited during the direct examination

16     and were furthermore not elicited during the testimony in Blagojevic on

17     the 18th and 17th of May, 2004, that just resulted from Mr. Thayer's

18     cross-examination.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau.

20             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I remain with my

21     request to cross-examine the witness on P38 about petrol, about fuel.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. -- do you wish to comment on either

23     or both?

24             MR. THAYER:  Just briefly, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, very briefly, please.

Page 27175

 1             MR. THAYER:  I think the witness's testimony with respect to the

 2     identification, or lack thereof, of Colonel Beara and Colonel Popovic was

 3     as clear or not clear as it's going to get.  I mean, I think I left it as

 4     wide open and open-ended as possible, and he's answered it to the best of

 5     his ability.  I'm not sure what more can be accomplished by further

 6     questions, but it is what it is.

 7             With respect to my friend from the Miletic team, I followed up on

 8     documents which she used, frankly, during her cross-examination to try to

 9     explain where this fuel was coming from and for what purpose.  She had

10     her interpretation of the documents which were used in the Blagojevic

11     case which she obviously knows about and had access to.  Again, I don't

12     see any reason why we need to follow-up when she's had every opportunity.

13     We've had substantial questioning by both sides on these documents.  She

14     chose to ask the questions she did.  I don't think there is any new areas

15     that she could not have anticipated, and I'll leave it at that.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Madam Fauveau, very briefly.

17             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  This is not

18     the document which I used during my cross-examination.  I used only the

19     Bratunac Brigade document concerning fuel of the HCR or the DutchBat.

20     Here it is a document of 17 July, 1994, and he said it was coming from

21     the staff of the Republika Srpska.  This document has not been used at

22     all during my cross-examination nor during the direct examination.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  With all due respect to Mr. Thayer, I think his

25     comments related to me are quite disingenuous.  Is their position that

Page 27176

 1     Mr. Beara was in Potocari?  Because we've seen throughout the course of

 2     this trial that there has been no witness, no video, no pictures or any

 3     witnesses, Bosnian, Muslim, Serb or DutchBat, who have testified that

 4     they have seen or purportedly have seen Mr. Beara at Potocari.  If he

 5     wants to be fair --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop --

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  -- he can tell the Court --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- stop.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  -- his position on Potocari.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  When I say stop it means stop and nothing else.

11     You know how far you can go in the presence of the witness, and you've

12     gone beyond.  So please sit down, and we'll communicate our decision

13     after we've heard any redirect that Mr. Lazarevic may have.

14             Mr. Lazarevic, do you --

15             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I literally have, like, two

16     questions for this witness.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay.  Go ahead.  Yes --

18             MR. THAYER:  I just have one -- Mr. President, this P38 -- I

19     don't think I used either.  Unless it's a different --

20             MS. FAUVEAU:  Wrong number [Interpretation] P3820.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  3820.  All right.  Okay.

22             MS. FAUVEAU:  P3820.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, anything else.

24             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, again it's a document she had access

25     to and she was aware of.

Page 27177

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Lazarevic, go ahead.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

 4        Q.   Mr. Trisic, I have just a few short questions for you arising

 5     from certain topics that were raised during cross-examination by my

 6     learned friends.  You were asked about the time you spent working as the

 7     security organ for two months.  From our point of view, it is not

 8     important whether it was in August or September, but what I wanted to ask

 9     you about that is this.  We are still talking about 1992, are we not?

10        A.   Yes, we are.

11        Q.   And at the time, as we have already seen, the Bratunac Brigade

12     did not exist.  According to the document that we had an occasion to see,

13     it was established in November 1992; isn't that correct?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   And you also spoke about the 5th Battalion of the Birac Brigade;

16     is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's true.

18        Q.   So when you spoke about the couple of months spent in the

19     position as the assistant commander for security and intelligence, you

20     were talking about the 5th Battalion of the Birac Brigade; isn't that

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   Very well, then.  Furthermore, you were asked about the order for

24     combat operations number 1 by the Drina Corps.  We also had an occasion

25     to see this document, you will certainly remember, and we have come back

Page 27178

 1     to that document with its corrections.  Let's clarify one thing.  Was

 2     that an elaboration of the order that you received from the corps at your

 3     level, at the brigade level?

 4        A.   Yes, that was it.  It was the elaboration, our elaboration of

 5     that order.

 6        Q.   And my last question for you is this.  The Prosecutor asked and

 7     you answered with a supposition.  He asked you about a depot where the

 8     Ministry of the Interior stored its materiel and technical equipment, and

 9     you said that you supposed that it was probably in the MUP building.  Do

10     you know if there was a MUP depot in Bratunac at all?

11        A.   There was no depot as such.  If they had any supplies, they could

12     have kept them in the MUP building.  They did not have a depot outside of

13     the MUP building.

14        Q.   Very well.  Thank you very much.  This is all I had for you, sir.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I just need one clarification.

17     "If they had any supplies, they could have kept them in the MUP

18     building."  That was the answer that the witness gave.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Ostojic, please proceed with your

21     questions and keep it as brief as possible, please.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I will.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

24        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  My name is John Ostojic, and I represent

25     Mr. Ljubisa Beara.  I am going to ask you a couple of questions.  Now, do

Page 27179

 1     you recall, sir, your testimony, your sworn testimony in the Blagojevic

 2     case that you gave on the 17th and 18th of May, 2004, when

 3     Mr. Peter McCloskey asked you questions on cross, and the Defence lawyers

 4     asked you a couple of questions on direct, that you were never asked

 5     about this purported sighting or recollection that you claim to have had

 6     with respect to Mr. Beara; is that correct?

 7        A.   You asked me if I remembered my testimony?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   I don't remember that Mr. McCloskey asked me that when I

10     testified.  You would have to show me a document to jog my memory.

11        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  He never did, sir.  I am representing that

12     to you, and they are welcome to stand up if my representations are wrong.

13     But based on the record that was kept there, the transcript is in

14     English, and I don't know if you can read or speak English, but in any

15     event, you were never asked those questions by either the OTP at that

16     time or the Defence counsel at that time; is that correct?  To the best

17     of your recollection?

18        A.   As far as I can remember, it is correct.

19        Q.   Now, today you shared with us, on page 57 at line 15, that you

20     quote -- you said:  "I think pressure was exerted on me."  Do you see

21     that -- or do you remember saying that?  Sorry.

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   Now, share with us, and just to keep it in context for the

24     record, you are talking about your interview that was conducted on

25     November 26 of 2001.  That's when you said you were being pressured or in

Page 27180

 1     that context.  Share with us some of the pressure that you felt that

 2     Mr. Dean Manning, the investigator for the OTP, was placing on you in

 3     order to testify.

 4        A.   The gist of my statement was that this interview lasted a long

 5     time, a very long time, and from questions and answers during my

 6     testimony, you can see that pressure was exerted when I was giving the

 7     answers.  I think that Mr. Manning insisted, and then after that, I

 8     confirmed things.  You can see uncertainty in my responses, whether this

 9     was correct or not correct.

10        Q.   Okay.  And we'll get to that in a little bit.  Do you recall

11     during that interview in 2001, the 26th of November, whether Mr. Manning

12     ever said that he didn't believe you?  Is that the type of pressure --

13     like him telling you that you may not be telling truth, is that the type

14     of pressure that was being exerted on you, sir?

15        A.   Mr. Manning told me that he didn't believe me.  He didn't believe

16     what I was saying.

17        Q.   And although my learned friend cited to the page, page 75, he

18     certainly didn't read it for the Court, that was immediately prior to the

19     time when you said or claimed that you thought you saw Mr. Beara in

20     Potocari, page 75.  Specifically, I'm going to ask you this, sir:  In

21     that interview on the 26th of November, 2001, do you remember at page 9,

22     lines 8 through 10, and I'm going to quote it for you.  I don't think you

23     have it there.  Mr. Thayer gave you a selected variation, not the entire

24     interview.  But I'll read it to you.

25             Here's what Dean Manning says at line 8, again, page 9:  "Okay.

Page 27181

 1     Well, let's stick to the 12th of July.  You've seen Mladic and Krstic

 2     there.  What other VRS officers did you see in Potocari on the 12th?"

 3             You, sir, proceed to answer on line 10 of page 9:  "I couldn't

 4     tell precisely, so I would rather not to say anything.  I'm not sure."

 5             Do you remember giving that statements to Mr. Manning early on in

 6     your interview of the 26th of November, 2001?

 7        A.   Sir, well, I didn't really find my way.  I don't have the

 8     documents in front of me now.  I can't find it so quickly.  I would like

 9     to look at it once again.

10        Q.   Mr. Trisic, and I -- that's a good point that you make.  I didn't

11     have -- and I don't have with me the B/C/S version of the interview.  I

12     only have the English one.  And Mr. Thayer, as I mentioned, only gave you

13     portions of that interview, and I just read out from --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I notice Mr. Thayer standing.

15             MR. THAYER:  I have a B/C/S copy.  And I'm also having a hard

16     time finding the portion that my friend referred to at page 75, that he's

17     complaining about.  But I have the -- it's in e-court, actually.  We put

18     the B/C/S version in e-court.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, let's take it one step at a time then.  Why

20     don't we go first to page 75.

21        Q.   Because I think my learned friend gave you that page because he

22     said page 75 through 77, so you should have that, sir, and I'm

23     particularly interested in lines 18.  And I'll read it and you can

24     hopefully catch up and follow along, but it says at lines 18, and --

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Mr. President, the witness seems to need a little

Page 27182

 1     assistance because he was given two sets of documents from the

 2     Prosecution.  If I could look at them, maybe I could help direct his

 3     attention to it, with the Court's permission.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead, show it to him, Mr. Ostojic.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.  It's on the B/C/S version, page 74.  There

 6     is no line indication numbers, so it's just at the top of that page, but

 7     corresponding in the English version on page 75, lines 18, as I think

 8     I've said.  So if you could just, with the Court's permission, just

 9     direct his attention to the DM where Mr. Manning starts to tell him how

10     he could probably sleep better after you told him you were a bit afraid.

11        Q.   Mr. Manning says this, sir:  "I think that it would have been

12     much easier to sleep had you told us what you know.  You said I didn't

13     believe you.  I don't."  End quote from Dean Manning.  Do you see that?

14        A.   Well, the text that I have doesn't go like that.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, that's fine and we'll flush it out.  Can you read to

16     us, in the point where the Madam Usher indicated that it says DM, why

17     don't you read that out to us, that first sentence.  Read it out loud, if

18     you don't mind.

19        A.   Very well.  "DM:  I think that it would be even easier for you to

20     sleep if you were to tell us all that you know.  You said that I don't

21     believe you.  I don't believe you."

22        Q.   Okay, thank you.  If I can stop you there, unless the Court wants

23     to go on, that's really the sentence that I was trying to read out.

24     Thank you for helping with that, and that was for the benefit of the

25     Prosecution because they couldn't find.  But I'm done with that section.

Page 27183

 1     What I would like to do, sir, is go to -- my point was -- and that was on

 2     page 9 of the English version of the transcript where you specifically

 3     state, in asking what other officers you may have seen in Potocari on the

 4     12th, you state:  "I couldn't tell precisely, so I would rather not to

 5     say anything.  I'm not sure."

 6             And I could give that to you, because you asked, if I could just

 7     have the B/C/S version --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please slow down.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  I will.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, how much longer do you have because we

11     still have Ms. Fauveau, as well.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  I will take probably the rest of the time,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  I wanted to finish with this witness today.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  May I proceed, Mr. President?

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I can finish in about three

17     minutes.  I can finish in about three minutes, if it can be helpful.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then try to finish as soon as possible.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:

20        Q.   It's in there.  I don't think there is a dispute that's what you

21     said, sir.  My question to you is this:  As you sit here today under

22     oath, as you were under oath in Blagojevic, unlike during the testimony

23     or the same that you gave to Dean Manning on November 2001, do you -- I'm

24     telling you my case is that Mr. Beara was never in Potocari on July 12th,

25     1995.  Do you have any reason to believe that or do you have any dispute

Page 27184

 1     with that?

 2        A.   I do believe that.

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  No further questions.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Madam Fauveau.

 5                           Further Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:

 6             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P3820.

 7        Q.   And while we wait, do you remember, sir, that when the Drina

 8     Corps was created, was established, as it was at Han Pijesak?  Do you

 9     remember that at the beginning the seat of the corps was at Han Pijesak?

10        A.   I don't remember.

11        Q.   Sir, in this document from line 2, one can see the military post

12     7111, it was okay, yes?  It was marked.  That's it.  7111.  And just by

13     it -- just by the number 11, you see Vlasenica which is mentioned.  Can

14     you see that?

15        A.   I don't have that document.  Ah, Vlasenica.  Yes, I see.  I see

16     Vlasenica now.

17        Q.   Could the witness be shown the bottom of the page.  And is it

18     true that the 35th logistic base was physically based in Bijeljina?  If

19     you don't remember, it's all right.

20        A.   I cannot remember right now.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now one can see at point 32 "allowed" or "authorised," and

22     then you can see handwritten Basevic.  Can you see that?  It's just at

23     the bottom of the document, just above the stamp.

24        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.

25        Q.   And Basevic is the logistics officer of the Drina Corps?

Page 27185

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   He is the one who approved sending this equipment, this

 3     ammunition, these supplies to the Bratunac Brigade, isn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you so much.  I have no other questions.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It was brought to my

 8     attention that perhaps the question was awkward and the answer somewhat

 9     ambiguous, on page 76, lines 19 through 25.  So I do -- in an attempt to

10     rush through it.  But I think if we read it --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no.  Actually, you are absolutely right.  We

12     were discussing, and we are going to put the question ourselves to

13     clarify it.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Trisic, Mr. Ostojic told you at a certain point

16     in time, "I'm telling you that my case was that Mr. Beara was never in

17     Potocari on July 12th, 1995."

18             And then he asked you:  "Do you have any reason to believe that

19     or do you have any dispute with that?"

20             And according to what we have in the transcript, you just replied

21     "I do believe that."  Can you clarify your answer and tell us exactly

22     what your position is in relation to what Mr. Beara's position is?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the statement, I said that

24     Mr. Beara, I think, was in Potocari.  I think that he was; thus, I never

25     decisively, clearly said that he was there for sure.  Later, from some

Page 27186

 1     other information based on conversations and based on video footage, I

 2     changed my opinion, and I'm not sure that I saw him in Potocari at that

 3     time.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  There are no further questions

 5     for you, sir.  That means you are free to go.  I thank you for having

 6     come over and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

 7             Documents we'll deal with tomorrow.  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10                           1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the

11                           22nd day of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.