Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27187

 1                           Wednesday, 22 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the

 6     case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  All the accused are here today.  Prosecution

10     is Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer, Mr. Mitchell.  Defence teams are in full

11     force today like yesterday.  We have heard there are some preliminaries

12     who wishes to go first, Mr. Bourgon.

13             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you.

15             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning judges all colleagues in the court

16     room very quickly this morning, Mr. President, I would like to come back

17     to the transcript of yesterday at page 27156 at lines 18 to 23.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  One minute.  I didn't know what you were going to

19     refer us to, so I don't have in front of me yesterday's.

20             MR. BOURGON:  It's only one sentence, Mr. President, that I will

21     read out and make a very short preliminary statement.  Mr. President,

22     yesterday, a ruling on a Defence objection the Trial Chamber stated that

23     there is no legal basis which would entitle us to restrict the

24     Prosecution from making use of documents which are not on the 65 ter list

25     if the need for such document arises out of the examination-in-chief or

Page 27188

 1     the testimony of the witness.  For the record, Mr. President, I would

 2     like to state that we respectfully disagree with the Trial Chamber's

 3     ruling and that we will be filing a motion next week on this issue

 4     because we believe that the Prosecution's use of new documents renders

 5     these proceedings unfair, in addition to the fact that it is

 6     unnecessarily extending the duration of the proceedings.  Thank you, Mr.

 7     President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Do what you like.  And for the future,

 9     please, we don't need advance notice of this taking precious two or three

10     minutes of our time.  So you can proceed with filing what you wish to

11     file without letting us know.  Yes.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  We join, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Ms. Tapuskovic.

15             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  The Popovic defence also sports this request

16     made by our colleague Mr. Bourgon.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, any other preliminaries?  So let's bring

18     in the -- first we deal with the documents.  Borovcanin documents.  Mr.

19     Lazarevic?

20             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

21     everyone.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  We tendered a list of documents that we used

24     through this witness and we would like them to be admitted into evidence.

25     It's a total of 26 documents.

Page 27189

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Any objections from the Prosecution?

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, and as for document -- I apologise.  I need

 3     to make one further clarification.  As for documents 4D605, it's a

 4     voluminous document.  We ask only two page toss be admitted.  Two pages

 5     which were used during examination of this witness in order to -- which

 6     are translated into English and these this is document which was used to

 7     identify the handwriting.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  But in the list, does it show that particular part

 9     of it?  Because I don't think --

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, the English does reflect.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah.  But the B/C/S doesn't.  The English says

12     1682 to 1681.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  We will correct that, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Any objection, Mr. Thayer?

15             MR. THAYER:  Morning, Mr. President.  No objection.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from the other Defence teams?  No

17     objection.  They are also admitted.  They have been translated, haven't

18     they, Mr. Lazarevic?

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Madam Fauveau, you have two

21     documents?

22             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  5D1385 and 5D95

23     and 96.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  5D95 and 96.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, any objection?

Page 27190

 1             MR. THAYER:  No, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from the other Defence teams?  None.

 3     They are so admitted.

 4             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] Just to correct the transcript,

 5     actually, I think I made a mistake.  It's 5D13, 85 and 86.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, madam.  So we come to the Prosecution

 7     exhibits.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we did distribute a list last night.

 9     The first item on the list has been listed in error, we are not intending

10     to offer this statement.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Which?  Can you give me the --

12             MR. THAYER:  65 ter 3809.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  You are not offering that?

14             MR. THAYER:  Correct.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections?  None from Mr. Lazarevic.  Any

16     objections from the other Defence teams?  None.  Have they all been --

17     most of them are in B/C/S.  Will we require --

18             MR. THAYER:  I think, Mr. President, there may be two documents

19     that were not translated.  3817, one of the documents concerning the PTT

20     lines.  The -- I'll have to check with respect to the materiel lists

21     because there were unofficial translations from the prior case that were

22     available, so I'll double-check on those, but I think we -- I think we

23     had them.  If not, we'll take care of that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We didn't see them when it was shown.

25             MR. THAYER:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I thought that they had

Page 27191

 1     been uploaded because they were available for the prior case.  Okay.

 2     We'll go ahead and take care of that.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So they are all admitted with the proviso

 4     that those which are not yet translated will be MFI'd pending translation

 5     thereof.  Any other preliminaries or anything else you would like to ask

 6     before we bring in the witness?

 7             Why don't we dispose of the two ...  Let's start with the last

 8     one in time.  The Miletic Defence team on the 20th of October filed a

 9     motion seeking authorisation to add to the 65 ter list of exhibits 65

10     documents which were identified in the material provided after the

11     original -- in material provided after the original 65 ter list of

12     exhibits.  We would like to know if the Prosecution has already taken a

13     position on this because although the Miletic case was not probable to

14     start soon.  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we have not taken a look at the

16     motion yet.  However, I anticipate not having objections.  We typically

17     have not had a single objection to these motions to add documents or

18     witnesses to the 65 ter list, but we'll get back to you as soon as we

19     have a chance.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So, Mr. Lazarevic, you will recall your

21     filing of the 17th of October, giving notice and also making a submission

22     in relation to be exhibits from the testimony of Krsto Simic under rule

23     92 bis, and that notice rather, you had stated that you were attaching

24     all of the exhibits used during the testimony of Krsto Simic in the other

25     case, in the Blagojevic case.  Following your motion of the 24th of

Page 27192

 1     September for the admission pursuant to rule 92 bis of the evidence of

 2     Krsto Simic and another person, and the Prosecution response of the 3rd

 3     of October 2008, we decided on the 10th of October to admit the

 4     transcript of the testimony of Krsto Simic pursuant to the rule of 92 bis

 5     subject to the condition that the Defence team for Borovcanin provided

 6     the exhibits referred to in it.

 7             Now, the above notice has been checked and it does contain all

 8     the exhibits in referred to in the Simic transcript.  Accordingly, the

 9     transcript can be admitted pursuant to rule 92 bis, and we are deciding

10     accordingly.  All right.  So and you needed to know that of course, in a

11     timely fashion.

12             The last thing, Mr. Lazarevic, again you will recall your motion

13     concerning admission of notability report under Rule 94 bis which you

14     filed on the 13th of October 2008, in that motion you sought leave to

15     amend the 65 ter exhibit list.  That was to include a report and

16     audibility of certain communication devices.  Secondly to -- you sought

17     the exercise of the discretion on our part to set a reasonable time limit

18     within which the Prosecution should indicate its position on the need for

19     cross-examination of the authors of the report, and in addition, of both

20     authors to the report, the addition of both authors to the report to the

21     65 ter list with a view to one or both of them being called to offer

22     testimony.

23             In its report which was filed on the 16th of October, the

24     Prosecution stated that it did not object to the addition of the report,

25     and its authors to the 65 ter list, but it does give notice pursuant to

Page 27193

 1     Rule 94, that it wishes to cross-examine the authors.  Both authors, as I

 2     understand it.  Since the report -- we have basically concluded that

 3     since the report was disclosed on the 3rd of October 2008 by the

 4     Borovcanin Defence team, the notice by the Prosecution pursuant to rule

 5     94 bis paragraph(b) was made within the 30 day period required therein.

 6     Therefore, the your request to set a reasonable time within which the

 7     Prosecution should indicate its position is now moot and will not be

 8     deciding on it.

 9             Having premised all this, we are deciding as follows: We are

10     granting the request of the Borovcanin Defence team to amend its Rule 65

11     ter list Exhibit list so as to include the report on audibility of

12     certain communication devices next to it and to add both authors of the

13     report to the 65 ter witness list.  And lastly, we are acknowledging the

14     notice of the Prosecution pursuant to Rule 94 bis that it wishes to

15     cross-examine the authors of the report, and therefore you will have that

16     opportunity, if you still wish to cross-examine those two witnesses when

17     the time comes.

18             MR. THAYER:  I can just add, Mr. President, that we've agreed

19     that only one of the authors needs to be available for cross.  Mr.

20     Markovic, so we've cut that by a witness.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, we had a communication with

22     the OTP, and that's what we agreed.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  But at least we have cleared this from our

24     table.  We can bring in the next witness, Mr. Simic.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 27194

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is a 92 ter witness, you are aware of that?

 2     Okay.

 3                           WITNESS:  LJUBISAV SIMIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Mr. Simic.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Before you start your testimony as a Defence

 8     witness for accused Borovcanin, you need to make a solemn declaration

 9     that you will be testifying the truth.  Madam Usher is going to give you

10     the text of the declaration, please read that aloud and that will be your

11     solemn declaration with us.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself

15     comfortable.  We'll do our utmost to finish your testimony today.  Mr.

16     Gosnell is going to go first.  He will then be followed by others.  Mr.

17     Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

19     Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

20                           Examination by Mr. Gosnell:

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Simic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   As I'm sure you recall my name is Chris Gosnell, and I'll be

24     asking you a few questions this morning on behalf of Mr. Borovcanin.

25             Would you please state your full name and date of birth for the

Page 27195

 1     record, please.

 2        A.   Ljubisav Simic.  8th of August 1953.

 3        Q.   And, sir, have you previously testified before the Tribunal?

 4        A.   Yes, four years ago, I think.  I think almost four years ago.

 5        Q.   In which case was that?

 6        A.   The Blagojevic case.

 7        Q.   And over the last several days, have you had the opportunity to

 8     listen to audio recordings of your testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   And, sir, does the audio recording accurately reflect what you

11     said during your testimony in the Blagojevic case?

12        A.   Yes, completely.

13        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions again that you were

14     asked during your testimony in the Blagojevic case, would you give the

15     same answers?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Simic, the interpreters didn't catch your

18     answer.  If you could repeat it, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I would repeat the same

20     answers to the same questions that I gave four years ago.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, on the basis of those answers, we

22     tender Mr. Simic's testimony in the Blagojevic case as an exhibit in this

23     case, and we already have a number, 4D606.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Any objection?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Not at this time.  However, should we go over the

Page 27196

 1     complete testimony again, I may object, but if it's -- if we don't, I

 2     won't be having any objection.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I should also mention that in going

 5     through the transcript with Mr. Simic, we discovered that there were some

 6     discrepancies between the audio recording, and we've spoke within the

 7     Prosecution about this and we propose to deal with it by consent or

 8     agreement.  Since, of course, the witness does not speak English and is

 9     not in a position to make any comment about --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead, you speak the same language, so please go

11     ahead.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  All right.  Thanks, Mr. President.  If it pleases,

13     the court Mr. President, I'd now like to read a summary of the witness's

14     testimony.

15        Q.   Mr. Simic, I'm now going to read a summary of your testimony.

16     Just to make sure you understand, your testimony is now before the Court,

17     that is your evidence and this is purely a summary for the information of

18     others who may not be so interested.  Do you understand that?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   "Ljubisav Simic testified in the Blagojevic and Jokic trial on 15

21     April 2004.  Mr. Simic was the president of the municipal assembly of

22     Bratunac in July 1995.  He participated in an informal meeting on 12 July

23     1995. "

24             One short correction, Mr. President, I understand that it appears

25     on the transcript as "meetings" was translated as "meetings," I am sorry,

Page 27197

 1     in the B/C/S.  So just to repeat: "Mr. Simic participated in an informal

 2     meeting.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Singular.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, singular.  "...  on 12 July 1995 at about 8.00

 5     a.m. with General Mladic and others in the Bratunac Brigade headquarters

 6     where he was told about the large number of refugees who had gathered at

 7     the UNPROFOR compound in Potocari.

 8             He was told that he would need to respond to the humanitarian

 9     needs of these civilians by providing water, food, and medical

10     facilities.  He participated in a second meeting at around 10.00 a.m. at

11     the Hotel Fontana, attended by, amongst others, General Mladic, UNPROFOR

12     officers, a MUP representative, and representatives of the Bosnian-Muslim

13     civilian population.

14             Mr. Simic arranged for water tanks to be sent to Potocari for the

15     civilians, and gave instructions to the Bratunac health clinic to be

16     ready to provide medical assistance.  He also went to Ljubovija, a town

17     in Serbia, just on the other side of the Drina river to obtain food.  He

18     negotiated with officials at the border to assure the delivery of this

19     food to Potocari.  He also called the UNHCR in Belgrade and requested

20     their assistance.

21             Mr. Simic personally went to Potocari that day and saw the

22     civilians outside the DutchBat compound.  While there, Mr. Simic observed

23     that the civilians were racing to get on to the buses, and that the Serb

24     and DutchBat soldiers there had to hold them back to prevent a stampede.

25             Mr. Simic spent a time there personally assisting the refugees

Page 27198

 1     who were provided with water and bread.  He was also escorted inside the

 2     DutchBat compound by a Dutch officer.

 3             A convoy of trucks from the UNHCR arrived in Bratunac on the

 4     evening of 12 July, and the supplies were handed over to the Red Cross

 5     for distribution.  The evacuation of civilians from Potocari continued on

 6     the 13th of July and was completed that day.

 7             Mr. Simic heard on the 14th of July that Muslim prisoners had

 8     been killed at the Kravica warehouse the previous day.  He heard that the

 9     killings had started with the killing of a Serb policeman.  Mr. Simic

10     spoke with Miroslav Deronjic who was also informed about this event, and

11     who was as shocked as he was at the news.  Mr. Simic also testified about

12     his contacts with General Morillon and about an evacuation of civilians

13     that General Morillon organised and led in 1993."

14             Your Honours, that concludes the summary of Mr. Simic's

15     testimony.

16        Q.   Now, sir, I have a few additional questions now to ask you.  In

17     your testimony you say that you attended the meeting at the Hotel Fontana

18     starting at around 10.00 a.m., and you've given a description of what

19     happened at that meeting at pages 7608 to 7609 of the transcript, amongst

20     other page references.

21             Now, sir, I don't wish you to recapitulate what happened at the

22     meeting, I simply wish to ask you, do you recall approximately how long

23     the meeting lasted?

24        A.   That meeting could have lasted not more than one hour, even if

25     you take into account what happened later, some kind of informal talks

Page 27199

 1     that we were held in that other part of the hotel where the meeting was

 2     held.

 3        Q.   And what is the first thing that you did after the meeting had

 4     ended?

 5        A.   The first thing that I did after the meeting once we started

 6     working on the implementation of the things that we had agreed when we

 7     realised what we had to do, I divided up the tasks with the -- with

 8     Srbislav Davidovic the president of the executive board so that the two

 9     of us could deal with what was on our plate, and to see how we could do

10     it in the most economic manner possible so that he could go to the

11     civilian protection and provide tanks with drinking water to dispatch

12     them to Potocari, to go up there and together with the people who were at

13     the meeting to see what needed to be done.  And I myself was to organise

14     the healthcare centre to -- and also to collect as much food as possible.

15        Q.   All right, sir.  And what did you do, you said that you spoke to

16     Mr. Davidovic, what did you do after you had finished speaking with

17     Mr. Davidovic?

18        A.   Well, we parted ways at one point.  I said that I would go to the

19     healthcare centre to tell them that they should urgently set up things

20     there in order to be able to receive indefinite number of the wounded and

21     the sick people who had been hospitalized by the Dutch battalion, where

22     probably the conditions didn't exist for that because it was a factory.

23     And they were probably out in the open air or in tents.  So I told them

24     that they should mobilise all of their staff and to rearrange the

25     premises there to put beds in so that people could receive treatment.

Page 27200

 1             I also said that all the medical staff from the healthcare centre

 2     should be invited in to work because of the emergency situation so that

 3     everything could function there.  I went on from there to Ljubovija where

 4     I wanted to get some food because at that time in Bratunac a very small

 5     number of shops was open, and we couldn't provide enough food.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, I understand from your testimony in Blagojevic that you

 7     weren't wearing a watch, and you expressed considerable uncertainty about

 8     precise times, but I would simply like to ask you your best recollection,

 9     in general terms, as to when you may have arrived in Ljubovija, even by

10     making reference to a time of day, if not an exact time.

11        A.   Not only at that time.  I, in general, don't have a watch.  I

12     explained that.  I have some personal reasons for this.  So after the

13     meeting which ended, well, let us say that I left Fontana at 11, I went

14     to the medical care centre to Ljubovija, it may have been around 12,

15     around 12, so I was in Ljubovija let's say at 12 at the municipality

16     because I went there to ask the colleague from the neighbouring

17     municipality to he could get the people from Ljubovija to give us as much

18     food as possible, bread, milk, food that is ready to eat, that doesn't

19     need to be cooked.  And for those people to bring this food to Potocari.

20     I explained to him who this food was for.

21             I may have stayed there about half an hour, not longer, because I

22     couldn't go into the office and ask for all that right from the door.  I

23     sat down, we had coffee, we talked a little bit about why I was there,

24     and he immediately started making phone calls while I was still there.

25     He was probably talking to some privately owned bakeries and shops,

Page 27201

 1     whatever he could, and he promised that he would do that.

 2             I asked him that once this was done, that the people should bring

 3     all that to Potocari, and I said that I would head out.  I think that

 4     from there, in fact, I called the UNHCR --

 5        Q.   Sir, may I just, well, I'm sorry for interrupting, and, in fact,

 6     you were about to mention that you called the UNHCR.  Perhaps you can

 7     tell us precisely about that telephone call.

 8        A.   Well, the UNHCR had its office in Belgrade, and I had been in

 9     contact quite often with them.  I would meet with them because they

10     provided food not only to Bratunac but the whole area.  And I thought

11     that their assistance, given that Ljubovija was such a small place that

12     their assistance might be of great importance, perhaps crucial

13     importance, and that's why I called them and told them that perhaps they

14     could intervene, providing as much food as possible, ready-to-eat food,

15     because this food was meant for the people who had spent a night in

16     Potocari in open air and they needed food after all that time because

17     they needed food after spending the whole day and perhaps there would be

18     other days that would follow, so they promised that they would do all

19     they could.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, this is almost all repetition from what is

22     in the trial transcript, I don't wish to have to cross-examine on this

23     material again, so if I could just make that comment.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell, if we could avoid repetition.  I

25     know it's mostly not your fault.  It's the witness's fault, but if you

Page 27202

 1     could draw the attention to the witness.  He needs to avoid repeating

 2     what he has told.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Your Honour, I will attempt to instruct him.

 4        Q.   Thank you for your answer, Mr. Simic, but now I want just to

 5     focus on the sequence of events.  From Ljubovija where did you go next?

 6     Without going into extensive detail about what you did along the way and

 7     so forth, if you could simply tell us where you went after Ljubovija.

 8        A.   I went to the customs office, and I did what I had to do in order

 9     to be able to cross and then I went to the healthcare centre because it

10     was on my way there, I didn't want to have to go back, and then I

11     proceeded to Potocari.

12        Q.   Sir, when you were at the border station, do you recall making

13     any, or having any conversations at the border station?  If you could

14     briefly tell us what conversation you might have had?

15        A.   At the border crossing I talked to the international observers

16     who were there because there were sanctions imposed on the

17     Republika Srpska and I talked to them.  In fact, I asked them, I told

18     them that some people with some food should come in my wake.  I told them

19     that this was not stuff to be sold, this was meant for the people from

20     Potocari.  I didn't have any paperwork.  I said I did not intend to sell

21     this, they did not intend to sell this.  I tried to convince them that

22     really this was for the people from Potocari, and I asked them to give

23     approval for this food to go across the border, and I said this would go

24     to Potocari.  And they, in fact, gave me their assurances that they would

25     allow this food to pass, and that's what they did.

Page 27203

 1        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.  Now, you've just told us that you went

 2     from Ljubovija to the border crossing and then from the border crossing

 3     to the Bratunac health centre.  Where did you go after the Bratunac

 4     health centre?  Again without describing in great detail what you may

 5     have done along the way.

 6        A.   From the healthcare centre I went straight to Potocari.

 7        Q.   And, sir, you have described what you saw at Potocari in general

 8     terms.

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   So I simply want to lead you through the sequence, and then I'm

11     going to ask you a couple of specific questions.

12             You remember testifying in Blagojevic that at some point after

13     you had arrived in Potocari, you got into a car with General Mladic and

14     drove to Srebrenica town.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can you tell us how long it was between the time that you first

17     arrived in Potocari and the time that you got into the car with

18     General Mladic?

19        A.   I may have come to Potocari between 1300 and 1330 hours, and I

20     think at around 1600 hours, the general came by in a car, he picked me

21     up, and we went to Srebrenica.  So it may have been around 1400 hours.

22        Q.   Okay.  And you've described various observations that you made at

23     -- well, strike that question, Your Honour.

24             How long did you spend with General Mladic?

25        A.   Well, I think it may have been around one hour.

Page 27204

 1        Q.   And how did you come to leave General Mladic's company?

 2        A.   Well, this crowd that came together so suddenly dispersed just as

 3     suddenly.  I left on the way from Srebrenica in Potocari, I went out,

 4     because that's where I had parked my car, and he just went on to

 5     Bratunac.

 6        Q.   So do I understand then that he left you in Potocari, or where

 7     did he leave you precisely?

 8        A.   Yes.  In Potocari, almost at the same spot where I got into the

 9     car, that's where I left the car on our way back from Srebrenica, and he

10     just proceeded towards the town.

11        Q.   And how long did you then spend at Potocari after General Mladic

12     had dropped you off?

13        A.   I stayed there for a short time because I could see that there

14     had been no major changes.  I was already hungry, tired, and dirty, and I

15     decided to go home to have lunch, to get some rest, and I decided that I

16     would await in my home to see what would happen with the UNHCR convoy

17     because I knew that it was out of my hands now.  I couldn't do anything

18     about the time of their arrival, whether it would be earlier or later, so

19     I had no influence over that anymore.

20             So when I went home, I waited there, I thought that they would

21     call me --

22        Q.   May I just stop you there, and ask you one question.  You

23     describe observing various things at Potocari in your Blagojevic

24     testimony, the distribution of water and food and other assistance that

25     was provided.  And you testified about people running towards buses and a

Page 27205

 1     stampede.  I simply wish to ask you, were those things that you observed

 2     during your first interval of time in Potocari, or were they on the

 3     second period of time that you were in Potocari?

 4        A.   I saw those things when I went back from Ljubovija, that was the

 5     first time that I was in Potocari.  It may have been between 1300 and

 6     1330 hours.

 7        Q.   So do you confirm then that you saw water being distributed

 8     during the first interval of time when you first arrived at Potocari?

 9        A.   Yes, I parked the car further down from the point where the buses

10     were making the turn because there was not enough place up there.  I

11     thought that it would be in their way.  So I went down there to park it,

12     and when I went back up I saw that the tank truck was parked to the

13     right-hand side of the road to Srebrenica where the people were gathered,

14     a large crowd, and they were approaching the tank truck and getting the

15     water from there, from that mass of people who were awaiting evacuation.

16     I met the president of the executive board, I asked him if everything was

17     okay, he says yes, as far as we were concerned.  He asked me what I had

18     done, and then I asked him about the others, where they were.  I meant

19     the people from the meeting.  He said no one has shown up yet and he was

20     waiting there for them.  He says, "well, there's nothing left for me to

21     do," and so he left.

22        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'd like now to move away from Potocari to a new

23     topic and ask you for a few clarifications concerning how you learned

24     about the killings at Kravica warehouse.

25             Now, you said during your Blagojevic testimony that you heard --

Page 27206

 1     you were told about the killings the day after they had occurred.  If you

 2     recall, who was it who informed you of this?

 3        A.   The director of the farming co-op, Zoran Nikolic.  It was in the

 4     morning I think, after that event, came to see us in that office, and he

 5     asked us whether we knew what had happened in Kravica.  He asked me and

 6     the president of the executive board because we were sitting down and

 7     having coffee at that time.  He told us that this thing that I described

 8     had happened there.  We asked him if he knew who had done that.  He said

 9     that he didn't know anyone, but he told us what he had heard, and this is

10     what I said in my previous testimony.  If you need me to repeat it, then

11     I will, but if I don't have to repeat it, you have it on record.

12        Q.   No, sir, I don't need you to repeat it, and thank you for that

13     discretion.

14             Now, when you said who it was to told you, I want to confirm the

15     first name of that person.  Would you please tell us again the first name

16     of that person.

17        A.   Jovan Nikolic was the director of the Kravica farming co-op.

18        Q.   And as best as you can recall, can you remember Mr. Nikolic's

19     precise words when he spoke to you?

20        A.   He said something horrible happened up there, and then I don't

21     know whether he heard it or he saw it when he went there, I'm not quite

22     sure about that, but I think you have his testimony about that, and he is

23     in a better position to tell you all that.  He said that he had heard

24     that a police officer had been killed up there, and that after that

25     murder, people who were there, who had been brought there from somewhere

Page 27207

 1     were fired at and that they were killed.  And when I asked who did this

 2     foolish thing, whether he knew what unit did it, he said that he couldn't

 3     recognise anyone and that he tried to approach them to go into the

 4     building but they treated him quite roughly and refused entrance.  So he

 5     couldn't do anything else there.  So that would be it, in short, what I

 6     can recall.  We were quite taken aback by what had happened.

 7        Q.   Sir, I'd like to now just conclude with two very brief topics,

 8     and the first topic is to rewind to the meeting at the Hotel Fontana at

 9     10.00 a.m.  You've testified that there was a gentleman from the MUP

10     named Mr. Vasic at that meeting.  Was there anyone else from the MUP

11     present at that meeting, as best you can recall?

12        A.   I recall quite clearly that there was nobody else from the MUP

13     there.  There was just him.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And my last topic is to ask you, sir, whether

15     you saw Mr. Borovcanin in July 1995?

16        A.   I saw Mr. Borovcanin only on TV, and from the TV footage, I was

17     able to realise that he had been there, but I personally had not seen

18     him.

19        Q.   Do you recall when it was that you saw this on television,

20     approximately?

21        A.   Well, after the evacuation from Srebrenica, B92 TV, I think so,

22     well, I saw them.  There may have been others who showed this footage,

23     the arrival of General Mladic and his address and the arrival of

24     Ljubomir Borovcanin and I think he was accompanied by two or three other

25     men, that's what I saw.  And that's when I realised that he had been

Page 27208

 1     there when Mladic had the first contact with the people who had gathered

 2     there in Potocari.  I did not meet with him.  I did not see him at all on

 3     that day.  I, in fact, didn't know that he was in town at all.

 4        Q.   And, sir, in July 1995, how was it that you knew who

 5     Mr. Borovcanin was?

 6        A.   Well, we knew Mr. Borovcanin from before, because I think that in

 7     late 1992 he came to Bratunac and he was the commander of the police

 8     station.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  One moment, Mr. President, please.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. GOSNELL:  No further questions, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Gosnell, sorry.  Just before you sit down, I

13     just want the to a clarify the first points you made about the

14     corrections to the transcript, I take it those will be filed with the

15     Chamber, is that the case?

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Your Honour, I believe that we will perhaps

17     refer it back to CLSS, if necessary, and then we will make a filing.

18             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you Judge Prost.  Thank you Mr. Gosnell.

20     Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No question for this

22     witness.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Ostojic.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead.

Page 27209

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  If I could get the podium.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

 3        Q.   Morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   My name is John Ostojic, I represent Ljubisa Beara in this case.

 6     I'm going to be asking you some questions in connection with some of the

 7     things you said in your statement in Blagojevic on the 15th of April

 8     2004.  Thank you.

 9             First of all, before I do that, sir, I'd like to know if you knew

10     and individual by the name of Miroslav Deronjic.

11        A.   Of course.

12        Q.   And how long had you known him during the period of 1992 through

13     1995?

14        A.   We are school friends since elementary school and we knew each

15     other, we are from Bratunac, we completed the same university but he

16     completed his in Sarajevo, I completed my in Belgrade.  We also

17     socialized after we returned to Bratunac.  I worked in Bratunac and he

18     worked in Srebrenica.

19        Q.   Okay.  And would you describe your relationship as being close?

20        A.   We were close.  Bratunac has few people whom I could socialize

21     with, like I could hang out with him.  I mean, we have the same

22     profession, we have lots of common topics to talk about.

23        Q.   And would the same hold true also for Mr. Davidovic?

24        A.   I knew Mr. Davidovic as a citizen in Bratunac and somebody who

25     was known to everybody as a good man.  I knew him briefly while he was

Page 27210

 1     doing something in the police force, but I got to know him better when he

 2     became the president of the executive board at the assembly.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And you dealt with him quite often actually in July 1995

 4     when he was president of the executive board, did you not?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And one last question with an individual, how about

 7     Dragan Mrkovic, can you tell me what your relationship was with him in

 8     1995?

 9        A.   He is also a citizen of ours.  I knew him from before the war.  I

10     don't know if he held any particular post, but he worked at the town

11     utility company.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, do you have or maintain any relationship or contact

13     with him presently?

14        A.   I don't see him so frequently now because he works somewhere

15     else.  I don't know exactly what he -- his job is, but I heard that he

16     spends most of his time in Montenegro working in the construction

17     business, that's his profession.  And this is how he supports himself

18     now, in construction.  I don't see him that often.

19        Q.   Okay.  Well, in 1995 July, did you hear of whether he had any

20     involvement at all with the burial of Bosnian-Muslims from the Kravica

21     warehouse to the area known as Glogova?  Were you familiar with that at

22     all?

23        A.   I didn't know anything about that or talked about that later.  At

24     that point in time, I didn't know anything about it.  The person who is

25     supposed to know about it is the president of the executive board.  If he

Page 27211

 1     knew it, then he knew it, but I don't know if he knew it or not.

 2        Q.   That would be Davidovic; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And do you know if Mrkovic was also a member of the SDS in July

 5     of 1995?

 6        A.   Yes, I think that he was.

 7        Q.   And you were as well; correct?

 8        A.   Of course.

 9        Q.   And Mr. Davidovic was?

10        A.   I'm not sure about him.  Perhaps he joined later, but I think

11     that he -- that I actually proposed him as a member of the executive

12     board to Mr. Deronjic because I wanted to leave my own post unless he was

13     appointed president of the executive board I was intending to resign.

14        Q.   Okay.  And Mr. Deronjic was obviously the president of the SDS

15     during that time, 1992 through 1995 at the very least; correct?

16        A.   Yes, and president of the deputy's club of the SDS.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  Let me ask you specifically with

18     respect to July of 1995, we heard and read your testimony in connection

19     with your travels and your visit to Potocari, but we need to be, if we

20     can at all, be a little more precise with the time in which you claimed

21     you met some people.

22             So it is my understanding that on the 12th of July 1995, you

23     actually went to Potocari, or was that the 13th of July 1995?

24        A.   On the day of the evacuation, I said that in my previous

25     testimony.  Not only then, but it's actually my trait, I don't actually

Page 27212

 1     remember dates, but it was on the day of the evacuation, whether that was

 2     on the 12th or the --

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's try it this way then: The day you had the meeting at

 4     the Hotel Fontana I think it was recorded, and I believe that's no

 5     dispute about that, was the 12th of July 1995 at 10.00 that you

 6     mentioned.  If we just accept that as being true, then did you go to

 7     Potocari that same day or the next day?

 8        A.   That same day because after the meeting we proceeded to Potocari.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   And that's when -- to carry out the evacuation.

11        Q.   Now, what did you do on the 13th of July, that is the day after

12     you were at the Potocari and the day after the Hotel Fontana?  Describe

13     for me what you did that day?

14        A.   I came later, not that much later but I was actually late for

15     work that morning, I came straight to the office to the president of the

16     executive board to chat because I hadn't seen him from the day before, to

17     see what was new.  So I dropped by at the municipal office.

18        Q.   And --

19        A.   Do I need to say anything else?

20        Q.   Not right now, thank you.  On the 13th of July 1995, did you have

21     any meetings with Mr. Deronjic?

22        A.   No, I did not see Mr. Deronjic that day.  I heard a little bit

23     before, and I conveyed to Mr. Davidovic that he was supposed to find

24     Mr. Deronjic, I was not able to see Deronjic.  I saw him when he came

25     from Potocari and brought some paper containing some stamps that the

Page 27213

 1     evacuation had been completed and the commander of the Dutch battalion, I

 2     think, had signed another man who had attended the meeting and Deronjic

 3     and he brought that on paper to the municipal office and said this should

 4     be archived because it was a document that had to be kept.

 5        Q.   So as far as you are concerned, the evacuation was completed on

 6     the evening of the 12th of July 1995; correct?

 7        A.   I stopped going up there at all because I saw that there was no

 8     point in doing that because everything that was expected of me I had done

 9     and then it was up to the Red Cross after that, and I didn't see any

10     point in going there after that because the evacuation would be continued

11     on the 13th, but that is the number of citizens who happened to be at the

12     DutchBat base.  So there was no need for me to go up there anymore.

13        Q.   Now, let's focus a little bit on the 14th of July 1995.  Do you

14     remember whether or not you had any meetings with Mr. Deronjic on the

15     14th of July 1995?

16        A.   I don't recall that.

17        Q.   Do you remember having any meetings with Davidovic on the 14th of

18     July 1995?

19        A.   I had no need to have any meetings with Mr. Davidovic.  He knows

20     what his work is, I know what is mine, and there was no need for me to

21     have a meeting in order to, I don't know, do what at that meeting.

22        Q.   Well, did you see him at all on the 14th of July 1995?

23        A.   I don't remember.  I probably saw him.  He is just across the

24     hall from my office, or his office is just across from mine.  I don't

25     remember.  I don't actually have any associations with anything else

Page 27214

 1     regarding if I saw him or not.  I don't know.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Help me with this, and then we are going to get is to some

 3     concrete issues relating to your testimony in the Blagojevic case.  But

 4     when did you first learn of the execution or the killing of the Bosnian

 5     Muslim in the Kravica warehouse?  Was Mr. Davidovic told you that on the

 6     morning of the 13th in the morning when you stated that you came late for

 7     work, is that when you first learned of it?

 8        A.   Davidovic didn't tell me that --

 9        Q.   Right.  When was that --

10        A.   But actually Nikolic told me, meaning that probably the next

11     morning, I don't know if this happened the day before or not, I'm not

12     sure now, but I'm sure that Nikolic came in the morning and said that

13     this happened.  It probably happened the day before.  I don't know at

14     what time.

15        Q.   Okay.  So --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Gosnell.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I have to object to the last

18     question, albeit belatedly.  Not only does it misstate what he said here

19     today, it misstates what he said in Blagojevic, and I'm not sure how my

20     learned friend could have misunderstood what was previously said.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  We'll clarify it for the record, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:

24        Q.   Is it your testimony, Mr. Simic, that you never discussed the

25     Kravica warehouse killings with Mr. Davidovic?

Page 27215

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And is it likewise your testimony that you never discussed the

 3     Kravica warehouse killings with Mr. Deronjic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you were informed of this massacre by only one individual

 6     Jovan Nikolic; and can you tell us what, if any, action you took to find

 7     more information about the circumstances of the Kravica warehouse

 8     massacre once you learned of that information?

 9        A.   I don't have any authority to be able to take such steps, and I

10     said the same thing the last time.  This was a combat zone, that area is

11     under the control of the army and the police, I don't know what I would

12     have done if I had happened to be there with a vehicle and a man in

13     civilian clothes.  I probably could have talked about it with Deronjic

14     later and asked him if he had been informed enough and could something

15     like this could have been avoided and did things have to go exactly the

16     way they went.  But this happened much later after the event.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:

19        Q.   Mr. Simic --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, there's a word missing at page 29,

22     line 11.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Under the control of the.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  He said army and the police.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  I do agree, and I thought it was important for that

Page 27216

 1     to be on the record now.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, let's proceed.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:

 4        Q.   Mr. Simic, I'm not asking you what you thought your obligations

 5     were at that time given your duties and capacity in that town of Bratunac

 6     what to do once you learned that information, I'm simply asking you what

 7     you actually did.  Am I correct in understanding that you did nothing

 8     once you learned that information?

 9        A.   Well, I don't know to this day what I could have done.  I mean, I

10     don't know, are you asking me -- I don't know what I could have done on

11     that day from the office.

12        Q.   I just want to know --

13        A.   I mean, if you have any suggestions, I would like to hear them.

14        Q.   We can discuss that at another time.  I'm trying to find out what

15     actually did you, sir, you did nothing once you learned that information;

16     correct?

17        A.   I was horrified when I heard that.  That's all that I could do.

18        Q.   Now, let me ask you this, sir, with respect to this issue that

19     appears on page 7626 of your Blagojevic testimony on the 15th of April

20     2004, you discuss learning of convoys carrying people to Bratunac.  Do

21     you remember that general topic?

22        A.   I didn't understand the question completely.  Can you be a little

23     bit more specific, what convoy?

24        Q.   Fair enough.  Convoy with Bosnian-Muslim men that apparently was

25     brought to Bratunac, according to you in your testimony at page 7626, you

Page 27217

 1     state that you had this conversation, I think, with Mr. Davidovic, and

 2     you were informed that overnight a convoy of Bosnian-Muslims was brought

 3     to Bratunac.  Are you familiar with that issue or topic?

 4        A.   Yes, I am.  And I said what I had to say about that topic.  Maybe

 5     you can put the specific question now.  What --

 6        Q.   Thank you for that direction.  That happened on the 13th of July

 7     1995, and that was the time that you claim that you came late to work and

 8     had this meeting with Davidovic; correct?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   Now, at any time prior to that, were there any Bosnian-Muslim

11     POWs in Bratunac, meaning on the 12th or the 11th of July?

12        A.   As far as I know, there weren't.  And last time I tried to

13     present the sequence of my movements that day and what I was able to see

14     from the route of my movement of that day, and I described it in as much

15     detail as I was able to, as much as my memory serves me about past

16     events.  But I think I did state the most important things the way that

17     it happened.

18        Q.   And we have that, thank you.  Now, the next thing that occurs,

19     did you say that that convoy, sir, left after you did some inquiring,

20     that that convoy actually left that same day or the people who were

21     brought to Bratunac left that same day, to Tuzla or Kladanj; correct?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   So --

24        A.   The president of the executive board informed me about that.  He

25     said that they had gone and that we can breathe a sigh of relief after

Page 27218

 1     that, and that problem doesn't exist anymore, I talked about that and I

 2     don't think there's any need to repeat it.

 3        Q.   I appreciate your thoughts on that, but tell me this: Did all the

 4     Bosnian-Muslims that were brought to Bratunac on the 13th, meaning on the

 5     evening of the 12th and that were in Bratunac on the 13th of July, when

 6     did they leave Bratunac, did they leave actually on the 13th in the

 7     afternoon, in the evening, or did they leave sometime thereafter?

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.  One moment, sir.  Yes.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  The manner of asking that question was improper.

11     It clearly pushes the witness towards an answer that is -- may I ask the

12     witness to take his earphones off.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Simic, do you understand English?  Do you not

14     understand English?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you remove your headphones for awhile, please.

17     Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Of course my learned friend is entitled to ask

19     leading questions but leading questions which egregiously at variance

20     with what he said in his testimony I think may in certain circumstances

21     be improper, and this is one such circumstance.  He is pushing him

22     towards an answer that is at variance with his testimony and doesn't give

23     him an opportunity to give an answer that's consistent with his previous

24     testimony, so I just wish to place that objection on the record, Your

25     Honour and perhaps ask my friend to restate his question.

Page 27219

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  You have a remedy on redirect if you want.  If you

 2     want to.  And secondly, Mr. Ostojic, having heard you as a gentleman

 3     enough now to adjust his question and give the opportunity to the witness

 4     if he needs to change anything or explain anything.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to add something to that objection, I don't

 6     think there's a problem pushing the witness to go somewhere, but the

 7     previous question suggested that this witness had said they had left on

 8     the 13th, which is not correct, and so he can't misstate the record.  But

 9     it wasn't exactly clear what date he was talking about, so I think that

10     last question may have hopefully cleared it up, so that's just my --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, again even you will have the

12     opportunity to go through any terrain that has been left uncleared.  Yes,

13     Mr. Ostojic.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  I appreciate both my learned friends to follow the

15     transcript and listen to the testimony because the witness did say that

16     they left.  And my friend from the Prosecution, he can look at that

17     specific page and line number, and I will clarify it.  I think if my

18     learned friend from the Defence just looks at page 7627 specifically line

19     14 of that transcript, he will know that his answer with respect to

20     specifically when that convoy left was not only ambiguous, although I

21     wouldn't all egregious on how he may have answered it or coined it.  I

22     think it's necessary for this Trial Chamber to hear when this individual

23     given his capacity knows or thinks he believes that convoy or those

24     Bosnian Muslims from Bratunac left.  But I will, Mr. President, with your

25     leave inquire further so we can flush this out a little bit.  Thank you.

Page 27220

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Simic.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:

 3        Q.   Mr. Simic, I'd like you to help us a little bit because we are a

 4     little confused with respect to the Bosnian-Muslims and this convoy that

 5     arrived in Bratunac in July -- on or about July 12th or 13th 1995.  We

 6     know, I think, and it's pretty clear that you learned of this for the

 7     first time on the morning or late morning of the 13th of July 1995.  Can

 8     you give us first, before I ask you when these Bosnian-Muslims left, how

 9     many were there approximately, do you know?  Did you discuss that with

10     anyone?

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  A little more specificity, women and children or

13     men, because in this context this question could be several things.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.  I think.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.  You need to explain the difference.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  I will.

18        Q.   Mr. Simic, we are still on the topic of the convoy or convoys

19     that were brought to Bratunac overnight according to your testimony.  Do

20     you know what the makeup of the people within those convoys was?

21        A.   I don't know, but the president of the executive board went to

22     them, he alerted the Red Cross to provide food for those people because

23     according to his information those people spent the night at the stadium,

24     it was a horrible piece of news a horrible thing that had happened at

25     all.  It was a like a time bomb for the whole town, I'm not going to go

Page 27221

 1     into explanations about why this was dangerous for the town, and the

 2     president of the executive board was there, he saw it, I did not.  I

 3     didn't.  He said there was a large number of buses, I don't know how

 4     many, that is, I don't know if this is ten, five, exactly how many are

 5     many.  And the fact that even two or three buses were brought to the

 6     stadium and put in the situation that they were in, that was horrible in

 7     itself.  I didn't go into any more details.  He was very frightened about

 8     that and he asked me to urgently --

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So you don't know.  That's really your basic answer,

10     you don't know whether they were men, women, or children that were

11     brought to Bratunac according to you on the evening of the 12th of July

12     1995?

13        A.   I think that he said that they were men, that was men.  That is

14     the point, the whole point why we were afraid, why men were left in buses

15     to spend the rest of the night and they were still there when I got there

16     because no one from the responsible army people appeared to resolve this

17     question.  And there could have been an incident at any moment and as

18     time went on the incident could have been more immediate and that is why

19     we were justifiably afraid.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Simic.  We have that already in your transcript

21     actually from the Blagojevic case, but thank you for that again.

22             What I'd like to know now is, when, if at all, when, if at all,

23     did those men or those people who were brought to Bratunac, when did they

24     leave, or did they ever leave?

25        A.   They definitely left.  Let's be most global without specifying.

Page 27222

 1     I'm not in a position to be able to do that, but definitely in the early

 2     morning hours, we were in a hurry, it was hot, both of us experienced

 3     this heat the day before, and we knew how it would be for those people in

 4     Bratunac in the sun, in the bus.  It was a very hot summer.

 5        Q.   So it still didn't really clarify it I don't think.  Early

 6     morning hours that same day when you came late to work or the next day,

 7     sir, did they get evacuated?  So help me with this, walk through it with

 8     me.  Go ahead.

 9        A.   Immediately after my conversation with Davidovic, I intervened

10     and there was a promise made that the convoy would leave immediately and

11     Mr. Davidovic told me that the convoy had left.

12        Q.   That's what I wanted to clarify, thank you for that, sir.

13             After that group of convoys or Bosnian-Muslims left, that means

14     on the 13th of July 1995, did Bratunac have any further Bosnian-Muslims

15     men, children, or women who were brought to Bratunac.

16        A.   I didn't have any information about that, and I was not in a

17     position to see that.

18        Q.   Do you know or are you familiar with the school the Vuk Karadzic

19     school?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And do you know if any Bosnian-Muslims were held in the

22     Vuk Karadzic school from the period of the 12th to the 15th of July 1995?

23        A.   At the time when this was happening and in the days after that, I

24     didn't know that.  But I did hear later that this did happen.

25        Q.   Okay.  And before we break, sir, we have a couple of minutes, I'd

Page 27223

 1     like to talk to awe little bit more about your testimony in the

 2     Blagojevic case, the 15th of April 2004.  You were called as a Defence

 3     witness for Mr. Blagojevic; correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And at that time, July 1995, Blagojevic held the position of

 6     commander of the Bratunac Brigade; correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   Now, during that time period in July of 1995, had you seen Mr.

 9     Blagojevic in Bratunac at all?

10        A.   I saw that and -- actually, I saw him and in my previous

11     testimony I described where I saw him and what my recollection is of how

12     Mr. Blagojevic looked then when I saw him, because even to this day I

13     remember that and I can describe it now if necessary.

14        Q.   We have it, thank you.  What I'd like to know is how many times

15     prior to your testimony for Mr. Blagojevic did you meet with the

16     attorneys for Mr. Blagojevic?

17        A.   Twice.

18        Q.   And did you meet with them ever in Bratunac?

19        A.   Once in Bratunac.

20        Q.   And the other time would be where, in The Hague?

21        A.   In The Hague, when he came to testify in briefings, I think

22     that's what it is called.

23        Q.   Did you, sir, at any time keep any notes or diary?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Proofing, interpreter's correction.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:

Page 27224

 1        Q.   Did you, sir, keep any notes or diaries of the meetings that you

 2     had either in July 1995 or with attorneys in preparation for your

 3     testimony in trials?

 4        A.   No, I never did anything like that.

 5        Q.   It's my understanding, sir, that you also testified in two other

 6     cases, one last year in July of 2007 in the Bosnian court; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And also, sir, you testified in another case in the

10     Bosnian-Sarajevo court in January of 2008 this year; is that correct?

11        A.   It's correct that I testified twice.  I'm not sure about the

12     dates.  I think you are right.  I'm sure you have the dates as well.

13        Q.   We have the transcripts actually, we'll go over them a little bit

14     after the break.  Thank you.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think it might be time, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll have a 25 minute break now, thank

17     you.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19                           --- Resumed at 11.00 a.m.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Mr. Simic, if we can --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   If we can continue here, sir, in July 1995, to the best of your

Page 27225

 1     recollection, do you know if Mr. Deronjic was appointed to any position,

 2     such as civil commissioner?

 3        A.   I heard that he had been appointed from the president.  Now, I

 4     don't know about his duties.  I think it mostly had to do with his

 5     exercising control over the civilian population, the situation among the

 6     civilians.

 7        Q.   The civilians that you have in mind are the Muslims; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And when was he appointed to that position?

10        A.   Well, I was not there.  I may have heard it over the radio or

11     perhaps the president of the executive board told me.  That's immaterial.

12     But I heard about it.  It may have been the 11th, the 10th, something

13     like that.

14        Q.   And just so we are clear, sir, the 11th and 10th of July 1995;

15     correct?

16        A.   I don't know the exact date when he was appointed, but he was

17     appointed in the Srebrenica case.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'm just following up on your answer, sir, which

19     appears on page 39 line 12 where you say "the 11th, the 10th, something

20     like that."  Whatever date it was it was in July of 1995; correct?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   When you say "president," because I know there's a lot of

23     presidents that float around in Bratunac from the executive economy to

24     the SDS, but the president you are refer together is Radovan Karadzic,

25     correct?  That's who appointed Deronjic.

Page 27226

 1        A.   Yes, definitely.  I didn't have any authority to make such a

 2     decision.

 3        Q.   I'm not suggesting that you did.  I just want toed clarify which

 4     president you were refer together.  I thought it was pretty obvious, but

 5     thank you for that.  I wanted to bring up to e-court Exhibit 1149 A and

 6     B, which is an intercept.  Sir, on the screen you'll have an opportunity

 7     to see this intercept.  As it's being brought up on e-court, have you at

 8     any time with the lawyers from Blagojevic or in this case had an

 9     opportunity to review any intercepts?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Also 115 B, I am sorry.  We are going to show you an intercept.

12     We have the English version up, in a second or two we'll have the B/C/S

13     version up.  This purports to be a intercept on the second half of that

14     page of a conversation between Mr. Deronjic and president Karadzic and

15     his intermediary, just so you are clear, you'll see some dots there.  And

16     it seems as if, and I think we are all in relative agreement on this, it

17     seems to suggest that Dr. Karadzic was conveying something to a person

18     sitting next to him and he was conveying it to Mr. Deronjic.  And it

19     really goes to the issue that we were discussing prior to the break, and

20     that's the issue of the Bosnian-Muslims coming into Bratunac on or about

21     the 12th or so of July.  This intercept however, according to the

22     Prosecution, I believe, is dated the 13th of July 1995, and I wanted to

23     know if you have any information about this.  So be kind enough to read

24     the second portion of that page on B/C/S, 1149B, and if you need, we can

25     enlarge that?

Page 27227

 1        A.   Well, could you please zoom in a little bit because I haven't

 2     been able to read anything from the start at all.

 3        Q.   I have a copy, if the Court thinks perhaps -- it's now been

 4     enlarged.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, the important thing is the B/C/S version is

 6     under seal, so we have already given instructions while you were.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's proceed with caution.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:

12        Q.   Yes.  It's my understanding, sir, we just won't mention who the

13     people were who purportedly captured this conversation, but we can talk

14     about the contents of the conversation.  So let me know when you've had

15     an opportunity to review this.

16        A.   Yes, I've read this part now.

17        Q.   The designation D is for Deronjic, as you can see, what I wants

18     to focus on is in the middle portion of this intercept Deronjic seems to

19     say, as they discuss how many thousands, he says, "... but there will be

20     more during the night."  Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now if this conversation happened on the 13th of July 1995, given

23     your testimony under oath here earlier this morning that there were no

24     such prisoners or Bosnian-Muslims in Bratunac after they were evacuated,

25     what is Deronjic talking about, to the best of your knowledge?

Page 27228

 1        A.   I really cannot fathom what Deronjic is saying here.

 2        Q.   This conversation is timed at 2010 hours, do you see that?  It's

 3     right on the top on the right-hand first line?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   Then as you read through the intercept, it seems to be, am I

 6     correct that Karadzic is instructing Deronjic as to what to do with what

 7     he calls "all the goods must be placed inside the warehouses before 12.00

 8     tomorrow."  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you know what that is in reference to?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   And then further it seems that president Karadzic through his

13     intermediary says, "Deronjic not in the warehouses, and then a word that

14     is not legible, over there, but somewhere else."  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you know anything about that, what are they referencing, where

17     do they want the goods or the thousands of --

18        A.   I have no idea.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, one moment.  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, the witness has now answered twice

21     that he doesn't know about the nature of this conversation or the

22     contents thereof.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  You are right.  He hasn't got a clue as to

24     what Deronjic is talking about.  That's what he has said.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  I heard that for that first portion, I now heard it

Page 27229

 1     for the second portion.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Simic, at any time subsequent to July of 1995, did you

 3     discuss with Mr. Deronjic at all who was responsible for the thousands of

 4     Bosnian-Muslims and where they were transferred in the warehouse or who

 5     gave them any instruction that they should be transferred from Bratunac

 6     to another area?  Did you ever discuss that with Deronjic?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Are you, sir, familiar with the fact, or is it known to you that

 9     Deronjic had a meeting with President Karadzic on the 14th of July 1995?

10        A.   1995, I don't know.

11        Q.   Let's bring up Exhibit P2905 quickly.  And it's really the second

12     portion, second part of that exhibit as well, which is the lower bottom.

13     If you look at the fourth entry, I believe, which has a plus sign, 1100

14     hours, do you see that, sir?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And we do have an English translation that I think

17     has been provided to the court, but it still may be in draft from my

18     understanding they are work on the rest of the diary.  Do you see the

19     entry for Miroslav Deronjic and that he met with President Karadzic for a

20     half an hour and then subsequent to that, he had a 4-hour meeting with

21     the delegation from Srebrenica.  Do you see that?

22        A.   I don't know anything about meeting either.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  He has answered the question.  I think it's

24     -- but still, if you want to give.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, same objection as before, the witness

Page 27230

 1     indicated he doesn't have any knowledge of this and then we have --

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:

 3        Q.   Were you part of the delegation, sir?

 4        A.   Never.  I was never a member of any delegation that included

 5     Deronjic at that time.

 6        Q.   Now, let me turn, sir --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Simic, I take it that Mr. Deronjic -- Davidovic

 8     and you are the individuals who took up the very sort of important

 9     position in Bratunac, is it fair to say so?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, you could say that.  I was

11     the president of the assembly and Davidovic was the president of the

12     executive board, and Deronjic was the president of the party, and he was

13     given this power by the president, and I never saw this in writing.  And

14     in fact, I didn't even inquire that much about what Deronjic was given

15     because that was his problem, not mine.

16             JUDGE KWON:  The document you are seeing in front of you is a

17     memo written by Mira allegedly a secretary of Dr. Karadzic, and we have

18     evidence to the effect that Mr. Deronjic met individually with

19     Dr. Karadzic for half an hour and later on for hour hours with the

20     delegation from Srebrenica.  So one may assume that in that delegation,

21     such important persons like Davidovic or yourself might have been

22     included.  What would you say to that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  There's no foundation for that at

24     all.  It's completely groundless because we never attended any such

25     meeting, the task that Deronjic was given, he was given by the president,

Page 27231

 1     and it had nothing to do with me.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Or you might have heard anything with respect to

 3     this meeting with Dr. Karadzic from Deronjic who was your friend?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Nobody told us about that, and I

 5     didn't have time to talk about it.  Well, I can now explain to you at

 6     length why that was the case.  You could see that this was a logical

 7     sequence of events and that in principle I didn't want to interfere with

 8     anyone's business, at the same time I didn't allow anyone to interfere in

 9     my business.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.  Sorry to interrupt you.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   If I may follow up on this a little bit.  Sir, you know that

13     Mr. Deronjic pled guilty to acts and events that occurred in Bratunac in

14     approximately 1992, 1993; correct?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know how much that is correct, Mr. Ostojic,

16     because Deronjic, I sat on that case.  I sat on that case.  He pled

17     guilty to the events in Glogova in May of 1992.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  It was a very limited indictment, very specific

20     event in which 64 or 84 persons were allegedly killed.  Were killed

21     actually because he pled guilty to it.  Had nothing to do with Bratunac

22     as such.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll clarify that, I didn't mean to mislead the

24     witness.

25        Q.   Sir, how far is Glogova from Bratunac?

Page 27232

 1        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  Maybe 4 or 5 kilometres.

 2        Q.   You grew up in Bratunac, you've lived there, you teach there, you

 3     went to school there, and you are familiar obviously with the fact that

 4     Deronjic pled guilty to crimes that is occurred in Glogova, 5 kilometres

 5     or less from Bratunac, are you not?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   The Bosnian-Muslim men that were massacred in Kravica in July of

 8     1995, you are also familiar that they were buried in Glogova, were they

 9     not?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And do you know what role, if any, Mr. Mrkovic Dragan had in

12     connection with the burial of those Bosnian-Muslim men?

13        A.   No, because Mrkovic was not my subordinate, he could have been

14     the subordinate of the president of the executive board.

15        Q.   Davidovic -- was it Davidovic that he was subordinate to?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Who do you think we should ask --

18        A.   He was the direct or of the public utilities company, and I don't

19     know why.  In fact, he was completely independent in his role as the

20     director.  Let me clarify this.  If you speak about somebody being

21     subordinate to somebody else, well, this was a legal entity that had its

22     director.  Now, I don't know what the relationship was between any of us

23     in the executive board or municipal with director of this legal entity,

24     that's quite pointless because the director had to do jobs that entailed

25     the running of his company.  I don't think that Davidovic could issue any

Page 27233

 1     orders to him because he was an independent legal entity.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And I just I didn't use the word subordinate, you did

 3     actually in your answer, sir, but be that as it may, tell me who your

 4     subordinate --

 5        A.   Well, I used it, and that's why I wanted to correct myself,

 6     because it was imprecise and could lead to confusion.

 7        Q.   Well, tell me, sir, as you sit here now today under oath, in July

 8     of 1995, who were some of your subordinates?

 9        A.   I didn't have any subordinates.

10        Q.   Who did you report to?  Who was your superior?

11        A.   I reported to the assembly.  I was one of the 33 or 35 people who

12     were equal there.  I was the first among equals because I was the

13     president of the assembly, I chair the sessions, I put forward the

14     agenda, I made sure that the sessions took place and to implement the

15     decisions of the assembly.  Let me try and help you understand this

16     because often -- you don't think this is necessary?

17        Q.   You know, I think we have it, you've explained it and unless the

18     Court really wishes to hear how the structure was and voting went.  And

19     I'm quite familiar with how the assembly worked and what the executive

20     having been on a previous case that involved these issues.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, if it pleases the Court, I would

23     respectfully ask that the witness do be allowed to answer the question.

24     And the reason is is that the use of this word subordinate and superior,

25     my learned friend did not define that term, and now it seems that the

Page 27234

 1     witness actually wants to explain what he might think by the use of those

 2     terms, so I think it's fair enough that he should now explain.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  I don't object.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not going to stop the witness anyway.  At

 5     least from what I could gather, it was not our intention to stop him.

 6             Yes, Mr. Simic.  If you could answer Mr. Ostojic's question.  If

 7     you need us to read it out to you again, we will do so.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  If I can continue with my answer

 9     because I understood the question at the time, and I could continue.  So

10     my role in the assembly was the following: I was the president of the

11     municipal assembly, I was not the mayor.  In some municipalities where

12     there were large cities, there were such posts and six years ago after

13     the reforms, we do have the head of the municipality in Bratunac too.

14     According to the last reform, the head of the municipality has the

15     authority that the president of the municipality and the executive board

16     as a collective organ of the executive in the municipality had.

17             At that time, I had the same role as the president of assembly

18     has today, because in addition to the head of a municipality, you also

19     have the president of the municipality assembly, because the president of

20     the assembly again puts forward the agenda, makes sure that the assembly

21     convenes and then implements the decisions.  Those were my powers before

22     and those are the powers of the president of the municipality today.  At

23     that time I was one among the 33 or 35 deputies who sat in the assembly

24     and I was privileged, if you may call it a privilege, because I Chaired

25     the session, whereas the deputies discussed and passed the conclusions

Page 27235

 1     with a majority of votes, and it's at same now, I then was entrusted with

 2     implementing the decisions.  Making sure that the decisions were

 3     implemented and the executive board, a collective body with five or seven

 4     members, depending on the municipality, they, the members of the

 5     executive board, at that time, comprised of a certain number of people

 6     who had some secretariats under them, the secretariat of the economy and

 7     so on, and they were appointed to the executive board ex officio and then

 8     the assembly appointed the remaining members, and then they would all

 9     attend the meetings of the executive board.  The president of the

10     executive board convened those meetings, and I played no role in that.  I

11     could not affect his work at all.  I was able to evaluate his work on the

12     basis of the reports that he brought before the assembly, and that would

13     then debated by all the deputies.  He could be praised or criticized for

14     his work, but that's how the work of the president of the executive board

15     was evaluated.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  I am sorry to interrupt, but there is an important

18     transcript issue.  Line 48 -- sorry.  Page 48, line 23, as I understand

19     it the word "by" should be inserted for the word "and".  Implemented by.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Ostojic.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  Is that sufficient for --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you are all happy, we are happy with it, at

23     least I am, let's put it like this.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:

25        Q.   Sir, let me ask you this:  Earlier today when we started before

Page 27236

 1     the break, I asked you a question regarding Mr. Deronjic and his position

 2     as civil commissioner and that he had -- you said on page 39, line 5 that

 3     you think mostly his duties had to do with quote "exercising control over

 4     the civilian population."  And then I asked you, Which do you have in

 5     mind, the Muslims, and you said, Yes, yes.

 6             Now, when you say exercising control, you are talking about the

 7     security of the Muslim population; correct?

 8        A.   Well, probably he knew better than I did, and I did not have an

 9     opportunity to ask him in detail about that.  I thought that he was smart

10     enough to be able to know what the president ordered him to do and what

11     kind of tasks he was given.  And I was not his assistant in this matter

12     at all.

13        Q.   I know that.  Just because I wants to clarify because on July

14     19th 2007 in the BiH court when you testified last year, you were asked

15     this question by the Prosecutor and you gave this answer, so I just don't

16     know if it's on all fours, and this appears on page 50 -- 58 of 70.  It

17     doesn't have a line in the transcript but it's page 58, and I'll let my

18     learned friend catch up, it's on the bottom portion as follows, sir, by

19     the Prosecutor Bulic "you have also said that during the contacts with

20     Miroslav Deronjic, you had the information as you have said that he was

21     in charge of security of the civilians.  Witness Simic answer: Yes.

22     Prosecutor Bulic: Which civilians did you have in mind?"

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the counsel please slow down.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  I apologise.

25        Q.   Prosecutor Bulic: "Which civilians did you have in mind, answer

Page 27237

 1     by you, sir, witness Simic, "the Muslims."  I just wanted to focus on the

 2     word security, do you remember giving that answer under oath in July 19,

 3     2007 in the BiH court?

 4        A.   Yes, and I think that I provided the same answer here.  I don't

 5     see any reason --

 6        Q.   I thank you for that.  If you'd like to say something, sir, I

 7     wasn't sure.  I didn't mean to cut you off.  Did you finish?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I want to go back to this issue of the convoys

10     on the 13th of July in the morning when you came and spoke to Davidovic,

11     and in your transcript in Blagojevic it states on page 7627, and I am

12     focusing primarily on lines 1 through 5 for the moment, so if we could

13     all direct our attention.  At that time, sir, you said you were told by

14     Davidovic to go check and then you continued to go to another place and

15     then you saw an officer there, a senior officer, I'm quoting now from

16     lines 2 and 3, you sate "I saw an officer there, a senior officer whom I

17     know now, for whom I know now is called Beara.  At the time I didn't know

18     his name."

19             And it goes on, if you'd like to read it, I'm sure you read it in

20     the last few days.  What I received, sir, a couple of days ago is a

21     proofing note from the lawyers for Mr. Borovcanin, and they told me in

22     this proofing note that they met with you on the 18th and 20th of October

23     2008, and they say the following -- and it's on the last page of that

24     two-page document.  "Witness did not know who that officer was.  He did

25     not ask him, nor did the officer introduce himself."

Page 27238

 1             Is that true and accurate, sir?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know what the reference is to.  I mentioned a

 3     meeting and then I'm getting confused.  Let's now clear this up.  What

 4     meeting are we talking about?  What is the date?

 5        Q.   I have a proofing note from a meeting from the lawyers who

 6     represent Mr. Borovcanin, the 18th and 20th of 2008.  They sent us a

 7     letter informing us of the contents of the meeting that they had with

 8     you, and they shared with us that at that meeting just a few days ago,

 9     you said, "Witness did not know who that officer was --"

10        A.   Excuse me for interrupting you.  I just want to say at the

11     meeting during the lawyer, or are you talking about some meeting in

12     Bratunac?  That's not clear to me.  Are you still talking about the

13     meeting with the lawyer?

14        Q.   I am.

15        A.   Yes, yes, we can continue.  Sorry I interrupted you.

16        Q.   No, no, don't be sorry.  Did you, in fact, tell the lawyers that?

17        A.   Specifically what?  Can you please repeat what I said.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, I'm sorry to interrupt, why don't you

19     ask directly the question to the witness.  Just put your question without

20     relying on the proofing note.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:

22        Q.   Sir, is it correct that you did not know who the officer was that

23     you mentioned on April of 2004 in your Blagojevic case, the officer that

24     you claimed you saw in Bratunac in connection with this convoy?

25        A.   Yes.  I didn't know, and then when I talked with somebody about

Page 27239

 1     it later, somebody told me that that was probably Beara whom I didn't

 2     know, and I don't know him still to this day.

 3        Q.   And at that time, sir, meaning the meeting or the encounter you

 4     claim to have had with this officer, you did not ask that officer his

 5     name; correct?

 6        A.   No, correct.

 7        Q.   And am I also correct, sir, this officer with respect to this

 8     encounter again, did not introduce himself; is that correct?

 9        A.   I didn't ask him and probably the man didn't need to do so

10     because I was agitated and stressed when I met him, and I was probably a

11     little bit curt or impolite with him which is not really my habit and now

12     when I think about it, I'm a little bit embarrassed or ashamed about my

13     behaviour, but that's how it was at that time.

14        Q.   Describe the officer that you claim you saw, sir?

15        A.   I could easily describe him had I had seen him clearly, but as we

16     say everything had -- all the blood had gone to my eyes, I was angry

17     because I had to intervene, and I was angry thinking about the

18     consequences for Bratunac because of what had been done, so at that time

19     all I could see was the outline of the man and I saw that he was an

20     officer, I was not looking for any soldier but for some superior officer

21     because I wanted to do what the president of the executive board told me

22     to do, person on duty.  I don't know if he knew that there would be a

23     senior officer on duty that anyway, I should address that person and just

24     having seen the ranks, I assumed that this was an officer and addressed

25     him impolitely as I already mentioned, but let me finish, please.  I

Page 27240

 1     didn't remember, I mean, I usually have a very good visual memory, so

 2     quite unusually for me, and according to some psychological code, I

 3     manage to retain facial lines and after that I'm able to reconstruct some

 4     event, but at that time I was not able to see anything characteristic

 5     with which I could then describe somebody.  And judging by what I have

 6     just said, it could only have been the mentioned officer.

 7        Q.   Sir, who told you that this person subsequent to that, who told

 8     you that it may have been Beara?

 9        A.   This is also difficult for me because later I talked with people

10     in my office because that was something that stayed with me for a long

11     time as some kind of experience of those events, and where I was quite in

12     some enforced stress, excitement, and then somebody just remarked that it

13     could have been only him.  I'm not claiming that he claimed and probably

14     he -- he probably said that was probably, but I don't know if it was that

15     man, or I don't know if the person who said that actually had known him.

16     It was unofficial.  Sometimes when somebody comes to the office and then

17     we are talking a little bit with a coffee, and so I didn't pay attention,

18     so it wasn't really that important to me who that officer really was, I

19     just retold that as an event that happened to me during those days.  So

20     then I just more for the sake of a conversation and for the sake of

21     relief of emotions I told it not because I really wanted to be interested

22     or wished to be interested in who is that officer exactly, I don't know,

23     I have no reason.  First of all, I don't know whether he is just an

24     officer on duty or responsible so that I would then show any interest in

25     who he is and how he is performing his duties, what sort of an officer he

Page 27241

 1     is, well, I don't want to be bringing any conclusions that would not hold

 2     water for anyone.

 3        Q.   When did this all occur, sir?  When did you have this discussion

 4     as you've just described as length to us?

 5        A.   This could have been in the morning hours, after 8.00 in the

 6     morning.

 7        Q.   Who is the person that told you that it may be Beara?

 8        A.   I already said that this was something that happened during a

 9     conversation in the office where there were more than one -- there were

10     persons and there was talk, and I just heard that it could have been

11     Beara, probably Beara.  Please, this expression probably.  This is the

12     answer that I heard to this story of mine, but I didn't pay attention at

13     the time who it was, somebody just interjected that as I was talking.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, Mr. Ostojic.

15             Mr. Gosnell, transcript problem?

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, this is just -- this is an objection

17     perhaps to assist my colleague.  I believe there is some ambiguity in the

18     question, line 19 of page 54, when did this all occur.  I think there

19     might just be some ambiguity as to what "this" is referring to which

20     might be clarified.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think you are perfectly right.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:

23        Q.   Sir, did at any time Mr. Deronjic discuss with you Mr. Beara?  At

24     any time after July 1995 all throughout the next few years?

25        A.   Regardless of the fact that we were friends, I spoke very rarely

Page 27242

 1     with Deronjic other than before the assembly I didn't interfere in his

 2     job, he didn't interfere in mine.  At the beginning I said I didn't want

 3     anybody to influence my work and if my work is good, there is a assembly,

 4     we can discuss that, and I'm going to bear all the consequences.  So we

 5     didn't really have any need for him to check me or for me to check him.

 6     What he is doing -- he is doing what was he was doing, what was given to

 7     him to do, and I was doing my own stuff, and I thought that was the best

 8     way to know who is what and how.

 9        Q.   With all due respect, I don't know if I really got an answer to

10     my question, but did Mr. Deronjic discuss with you, sir, at any time

11     after July of 1995, Mr. Beara?  Yes or no, if I may?

12        A.   Not with me, no.

13        Q.   Now, I want to direct your attention to the testimony you gave

14     earlier on this year of the 18th of January 2008, page 16, lines 7

15     through 11.  If you just give me a second so I can quote it exactly.  But

16     at that time sir, under oath, you said that Deronjic asked you if you

17     remembered an incident or meeting involving Mr. Beara, and you answered

18     by saying you don't remember it and you were asleep in essence.  Do you

19     remember giving that testimony earlier this year?  And just so the record

20     is clear so my friend's can follow, the transcript from the Bosnian court

21     is broken up into three sections, and each section starts again with page

22     1, so the page reference is to the second portion of the transcript and

23     that's on page 16, lines 11.

24             Do you remember giving that testimony, sir, in essence?

25        A.   Thank you for reminding me, but --

Page 27243

 1        Q.   You are welcome.

 2        A.   What I said just now, what I said is due to the impreciseness of

 3     your own question, when.  Many months, maybe many years later, at one

 4     situation I don't know if I said that also here or in the Blagojevic

 5     case, well, it doesn't matter, but I'm going to confirm that -- well, the

 6     war was over, and I was no longer at the municipal office, Deronjic I

 7     think, was and at one time when we were sitting, having a drink somewhere

 8     he asked me laughing at a situation from my work history which was

 9     interesting and spicy to him, and I felt uncomfortable about it, and

10     somebody else was with us then, and he said well, imagine I came -- well,

11     allegedly I was sitting in front of the office of the SDS, I don't know

12     there was some kind of a soft chair there and waiting for I don't know

13     who, probably him, I fell asleep.  And then when he came in, he woke me

14     up, and he told me that I should go out and come back later if he needs

15     me.  I said I don't really remember that.  I asked him, are you making

16     this up in order to make a joke in company or what?  And he was laughing

17     and he said that this had really happened, but I really then or today, do

18     not happen to remember at all coming back later to talk about something

19     with him.  That's what we talked about.  I remember that conversation.

20     It was many years later in a cafe while we were having a drink, there was

21     somebody else with us it, and it was more of a joke at my expense that I

22     was fallen asleep in a chair waiting for somebody, actually him, but

23     anyway, he said I was supposed to have a conversation with him and then

24     he woke me up and then sent me away and told me to come back later.

25        Q.   Now, I want to ask you, sir, if you stand by your sworn testimony

Page 27244

 1     that you gave in the Sarajevo court on the 10th of January 2008,

 2     specifically page 15, line 17 through 19 --

 3        A.   I am not looking at the text, but if I said anything in that

 4     sense, that is that perhaps it has been interpreted a little bit

 5     differently, but the essence is the same, and I stand by the essence that

 6     Deronjic told me that he had come and found me in that chair in the

 7     condition of sleep and that he woke me up and sent me off to return later

 8     and I don't remember that to this day.  I tried by some mechanisms to

 9     access if I remember any details to see if this could have happened or

10     not, and I thought that Deronjic will -- just made this up in order to

11     make a joke.

12        Q.   We heard your testimony earlier that you did not have any

13     meetings with Deronjic on the night of the 13th.  But I was asking you a

14     different question and trying to conclude part of this.  I wanted know if

15     you could confirm this for me, do you stand by your testimony given in

16     the Sarajevo court 10th of January 2008, page 15, line 17 through 19 as

17     follows: You were asked by the Prosecutor, Mr. Alcock there -- line 13,

18     I'm sorry.  "May have an answer, please, sir, do you know Colonel Beara."

19     Answer line 14 "No, I'm ready to answer --

20        A.   Baraga is that it?

21        Q.   Beara?

22        A.   Oh, I'm sorry it seemed to me as if you had said Baraga.  So it

23     is knew name for me, I am sorry I apologise.

24        Q.   That's okay.  I may have misspoken regrettably.  No the

25     Prosecutor is asking you on line 13 do you know Colonel Beara, you answer

Page 27245

 1     on line 14 "No, I'm ready --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   To answer your question, what you mentioned that Miroslav stated

 4     elsewhere.  The next line, sir, judge -- the Honourable Judge Gluhajic

 5     asked "the Prosecutor has asked you a question.  Do you know Colonel

 6     Beara?"  Answer by the witness, you, sir.  "The answer is no.  I've heard

 7     about him, but I've never had a chance to see him."

 8             Do you stand by that answer --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   -- that you gave?

11        A.   Completely.

12        Q.   Now, it goes on to say, sir, at lines 21, although the microphone

13     was not activated for the immediate beginning of the question.  It talks

14     about whether or not you had any meetings on the night of the 13th of

15     July with Miroslav Deronjic, and you answer at line 23, "no."  Do you

16     stand by that, sir?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Now, you talked a little bit about the meeting with Deronjic, and

19     I have to ask this you this because during this conversation that

20     Deronjic wanted you to discuss, although you say he was laughing, was he

21     talking about the circumstances when purportedly people were discussing

22     killing Bosnian-Muslims or killing prisoners?

23        A.   No, he said that we were sitting -- I mean, you don't talk about

24     these things in cafes, neither do you hold meetings in cafes on this

25     topic.  I think he just wanted to describe a comical situation from that

Page 27246

 1     period, and that's what he told.  I was the topic of that comedy.  Wasn't

 2     anything more than that.

 3        Q.   On the same transcript, same page, just the very next section,

 4     the very next line actually the Prosecutor continues to ask you, although

 5     again the microphone was not activated, he is discussing circumstances --

 6     and it's line 24 and 25, page 15, then proceeding on the next page, page

 7     16, lines 1 through 11, he asked you about circumstances in any meetings

 8     on some other date when he got you out of the room when a soldier was

 9     talking too openly or too loudly about killing prisoners.  The answer by

10     you, sir.  The "No, and this is the reason why I wanted to -- to answer

11     your question."  And then the Honourable Judge Gluhajic again intervenes

12     he says, You may answer the question right now.  The question was put to

13     you in a different manner.  The witness, sir, by you, you state at

14     follows: "Once Miroslav asked me in Bratunac whether -- whether I

15     remember being there and that he came out and I was asleep in -- in the

16     chair and that he said that I should go somewhere else or I should go

17     somewhere and -- but I responded that I do not recall this incident, that

18     I was asleep.  So it was not even my subconscious mind."

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   When did this meeting take place, sir, that you discussed this

21     with Deronjic and that he made fun of you being asleep?

22        A.   He told me this later in this cafe --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just one moment.  Mr. Gosnell.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honours, I feel as if the same question is

25     being asked in a different glove again and again, and I would suggest to

Page 27247

 1     you that the witness has already answered this question at least twice,

 2     in fact.  So I'm not sure what is being what this document is being used

 3     for.  Impeachment or confirmation or for what purpose, but I object to

 4     the repetition of the same questions.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I would like to hear your comments on this,

 6     Mr. Ostojic.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I don't have any comment on it.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then please proceed.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:

10        Q.   Sir, could you tell me to the best of your recollection --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  And try to move because you had asked for 30

12     minutes and already you have -- we are not stopping you of course but you

13     are already over one hour.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  I appreciate that, but I actually asked for an hour

15     then there was a mistake, and we did reduce it to a half hour, but thank

16     you for your --

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:

19        Q.   Sir, what I want to know as you sit here today has anyone at any

20     time including Mr. Deronjic ever told you to put or place Mr. Beara's

21     name in or around the area of Bratunac as being purportedly there?  Did

22     anyone ever tell you that?

23        A.   I heard a number of times, for example, the president of the

24     executive board said that Beara was in Bratunac.  This last example, I'm

25     sure of everything else that we talked about Miroslav and this story of

Page 27248

 1     Miroslav to this day, I said that twice just now, and I think that is

 2     quite clear.  I do not recall that having happened like that.  I

 3     understood that as Miroslav's joke, as my expense in company to make them

 4     laugh.  I don't deny it, it's possible that it happened, but I really do

 5     not -- and I told Miroslav that really he construed it well, and if it

 6     was a joke all right I'm really interest well did this really happen and

 7     he just through laughter, he said well, he couldn't remember.  I mean, I

 8     couldn't remember.  I don't to this day haven't managed to remember a

 9     single detail.  I'm in a dilemma today, did he really make up this as a

10     joke, or did I fall asleep in that situation, I don't recall falling

11     asleep or leaving or even seeing Deronjic at all.  I mean, this is it in

12     the briefest possible way.  I mean, I don't want to go on about it any

13     more.  I don't know if you have any instruments to help me dig this out

14     of my subconscious mind, I have nothing against that, but for all those

15     years ever since Miroslav told me that I've been asking myself if it's

16     possible that I was in that situation and that this happened and it was

17     as comical as it appeared.  I mean, it never seemed comical to me, not

18     even now.

19        Q.   Are you familiar or do you know what the relationship was with

20     Dragan Mrkovic and Mr. Borovcanin, if any?

21        A.   Bratunac is a small town, you know.  Everybody knows each other

22     practically.  We spent time together.  Everybody socialized with everyone

23     else.  I mean, what can I conclude on the basis of that socializing.  I

24     know why I spent time with certain people, but I never thought about why

25     other people would spend their time with people.

Page 27249

 1        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to read to you what appears on Exhibit 2D172 and

 2     just for the Court and the record, it's a supplemental information sheet.

 3     I want to know if you know anything about this in particular, sir.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Simic.

 5             Mr. Gosnell.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honours, on Monday we filed a motion that

 7     directly concerns what my learned friend is now attempting to do.  We

 8     strongly object to the use of documents that are not admitted in evidence

 9     being put to a witness in order to -- sorry.  May I ask the Court to

10     request the witness to remove his head phones.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Right, Mr. Simic, could you remove your headphones,

12     please.

13             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  I wouldn't wish to try to recapitulate all the

15     arguments that are in that motion.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  You don't need to.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Right, but that does state our position.  We do

18     believe that that is procedurally improper.  I draw the Court's attention

19     to the fact that this isn't even a statement.  This is a proofing note

20     prepared by, albeit a very capable and respected member of the Office of

21     the Prosecutor, but nonetheless it's not a statement.  And for the

22     reasons more fully set out in the motion, this is highly prejudicial,

23     highly improper and we object to it.  And furthermore, Mr. President this

24     links in as well to the grounds for our motion for certification.  We are

25     now going beyond, as far as I can tell, what is previously been raised in

Page 27250

 1     this case by the Beara Defence in any case, so we also object on that

 2     ground.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.  Mr. McCloskey and then

 4     I'll call on you, Mr. Ostojic.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll try to be brief, but for well over two years

 6     we've been going on the practice established by this Court that material

 7     for cross-examination was wide open as it should be.  There of course can

 8     be exceptions we are trying to find out which document he is referring

 9     to, but a proofing note of a statement, I can't imagine why that cannot

10     be used.  We've read the motion, frankly, it's absurd and has no legal

11     foundation.  And goes directly against our over two years of practice on

12     both sides.  So I will eventually get what this document is in

13     particular, but as a matter of precedent, I think it's important that

14     people be allowed to use material for cross-examination.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Leaving we'll now be asking you,

16     Mr. Ostojic, to comment, but would kindly also ask you to leave

17     unprejudiced the merits of the Borovcanin Defence team motion is referred

18     to.  That we'll be decided if at all in due course, but for the time

19     being let's deal with this particular document what is your position

20     after having heard both Mr. Gosnell and Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Ostojic?

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  I certainly think that we are entitled to ask

22     questions --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, let me be clear, we are talking about

24     Mr. Nicholls proofing note.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Judge Kwon, I don't know what my learned

Page 27251

 1     friend says wasn't he states on page 63 --

 2             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Nicholls' proofing note of?

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  His conversation with Momir Nikolic referencing

 4     particularly on page 3 Dragan Mrkovic.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you have anything to add?

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  I was starting to add it, but no I do not.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Yes I thought we had concluded,

 8     Mr. Gosnell.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  I apologise, I thank you the Court's patience.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  You will always find us very patient.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  We do not suggest that my learned friend cannot put

12     a proposition.  We fully we discussed that fully in the motion, but I

13     wants to make that clear right now.  We don't have a problem with my

14     learned friend putting a proposition.  We have a problem with giving it

15     this air of reliability which we believe is improper.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Now that I know what we are talking about,

18     I think that proofing note from anyone involved in this case like this is

19     perfectly open for cross-examination especially for the Defence.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic, if you wish to conclude?

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  I don't have anything.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  You don't want the final word.  Okay.  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers].

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, sorry.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just one other point for your information that

Page 27252

 1     Momir Nikolic is available to be called in this courtroom as it has to do

 2     with information and whether that information is -- should be

 3     cross-examined.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Our decision is as follows: I would

 5     like first of all to make it clear that what we are deciding now present

 6     and will be without prejudice to your motion that you filed earlier on

 7     this week which we will deal with after we've heard from the Prosecution

 8     and from other colleagues of yours.  On this particular occasion,

 9     particularly since we are dealing with Momir Nikolic, who was, in part,

10     the subject matter of a previous decision of this Trial Chamber, we think

11     that the best way to proceed, Mr. Ostojic, is for you to put the

12     proposition to the witness one or more as you please, which you may base

13     in your mind on what is contained in this document without, however,

14     making reference to the document.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  I just referenced it so my learned

16     friends can follow along, in case they were wondering where that might

17     come from.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  We appreciate that.  But in the meantime, you

19     created a problem.  We are trying to solve this problem.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  I apologise for that.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  You don't need to apologise, maybe others would

22     have done exactly the same.  But in the meantime, let's proceed along the

23     lines that we have indicated to you, Mr. Ostojic, I'm sure you will

24     agree.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 27253

 1        Q.   Sir, given that you just told us on page 62, line 16 that

 2     Bratunac is a small town everyone knows each other practically, we spent

 3     time together, we socialized, et cetera, et cetera, did you ever hear or

 4     come to learn that people were actually lying about Beara's purported

 5     involvement of the Bosnian-Muslims in Glogova?  Did you ever discuss that

 6     with anyone?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did you ever hear from anyone -- sorry.  Go ahead.

 9        A.   I will be able to assist you immediately to understand fully why

10     I did not.  I didn't want to even listen to the rumours that were doing

11     the rounds at that time except to the official meetings, because I knew

12     that testimony would have to be given in court at one point and I didn't

13     want to contaminate my memory of what I myself had seen or heard with

14     what other people had told me.  I didn't want to have this confusion in

15     my head.  And I didn't take any of those rumours as being credible or in

16     any way important for me.  I knew how things are to be done in any

17     serious proceedings, and that's what was important to me.  I didn't have

18     the time to or the inclination to listen rumours.

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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Page 27254

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  I just want to make a comment if I may, I think if

22     we can appreciate the question, I'm not telling him they did testify, I'm

23     inquiring whether or not they testified if he knows.  So it's a very

24     open-ended question whether they are protected or not.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  But if he says yes like he did on the previous

Page 27255

 1     occasion, then there is a follow-up for which.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  I don't know what the answer is.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Neither do we.  So that's why we have to take

 4     precautions.  Let's stay in private session while you conclude this

 5     series of questions, if you have any more.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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Page 27256

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:

 4        Q.   Just if I can follow -up on the officer that you claim you saw on

 5     or about the 13th of July 1995, and I know I asked you can you describe

 6     him and you gave us a lengthy answer, but do you remember, if at all,

 7     sir, if he was your height, shorter or taller than you?

 8        A.   I've already told you about my emotional state at the time, and I

 9     have to admit that I did not have any visual capabilities at all.  This

10     was just an impression that I was left with and now I could try and

11     extract some things that would not really reflect reality.  So I don't

12     want to speculate.  Because I know myself or at least it seems to me that

13     I know myself.

14        Q.   Just give me one moment.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President, for the additional time,

17     I appreciate it very much.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you Mr. Ostojic.

19             Ms. Nikolic.

20             JUDGE KWON:  In the mean time can you go back to private session

21     briefly.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's revert to private session for a short

23     while, please.

24                           [Private session]

25    (redacted)

Page 27257

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we are back in open session.

24             Ms. Nikolic.

25             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I don't

Page 27258

 1     have any questions for this witness.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau.  Thank you, Madam Nikolic.

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, five, ten minutes.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:  [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Good morning, sir, I'm Natacha Fauveau Ivanovic, and I represent

 7     General Miletic, I have a few questions to ask you.

 8             When you were president of municipality of Bratunac in 1994,

 9     1995, do you know that the DutchBat which was stationed in the enclave

10     Srebrenica was supplied by the Fontana hotel which is in Bratunac?

11        A.   Yes, yes, I know that quite well.

12        Q.   Therefore you can confirm that indeed the DutchBat obtained

13     certain merchandise from Bratunac, from the hotel.

14        A.   They obtained the merchandise based on the orders that they gave,

15     it gave, and I think that they went -- their soldiers went to the Fontana

16     hotel every week in order to have some fun, although it just -- it was

17     just a facility that provided accommodation and food, and it didn't have

18     any other programs.

19        Q.   I would now ask you a few questions concerning the call you gave

20     to the HCR in Belgrade.  After this call you gave, did the convoy from

21     HCR arrive in Belgrade?

22        A.   Yes, it did.

23        Q.   Did this convoy arrive on the same day when you made this call or

24     the next day?

25        A.   The same day.  But there was a delay that I did not expect, I

Page 27259

 1     told you already that it was in the early evening.  At that time the

 2     population that was outside of the DutchBat zone had already been

 3     evacuated to they came with me to the gate and they went to the DutchBat

 4     base to see what the needs were and where to unload their stuff and where

 5     to distribute it.  I didn't want to go there again because I had already

 6     gone during the day, so they went there on their own.

 7        Q.   When this convoy from the HCR arrived, there was a part of a

 8     population which hadn't yet been evacuated, is that so?

 9        A.   That's right.  The part of the population that was in the base

10     that was fenced in, it was an area that was used by UNPROFOR.  It was a

11     wire fence around it, I don't know what to call it.

12        Q.   Did the representatives of the HCR, were they in a possibility to

13     have a contact with the population waiting to be evacuated?

14        A.   They could fully because they had gone there unescorted by me and

15     they probably, I assume, that they reported to somebody from the Dutch

16     battalion, and they were able to talk to whoever they wanted up there.

17        Q.   After during this visit in the DutchBat precinct, did you have an

18     opportunity to spend the evening with a representative of the HCR?  We

19     see that in your testimony in the Blagojevic case.  These two people from

20     the HCR, did they tell you something about the way the evacuation was

21     organised?

22        A.   They never told me anything about that, but I saw that they spoke

23     to some reporter in front of the DC warehouse.  He saw the trucks pass by

24     and he approached them, but I didn't approach them myself.  I didn't want

25     to interfere in any way with the journalist or with this man.  I stood at

Page 27260

 1     the side and I waited for him to finish.  Apart from what I said, apart

 2     from what I was told by the UNHCR representative, we didn't discuss it

 3     any longer.

 4        Q.   Do these two persons did not tell you there was any dearth of

 5     anything or something which was not going properly?

 6        A.   They told me that they were sorry they were late.  I knew that

 7     myself, that what they must have heard up there, but the DutchBat

 8     commander says that there was no need for this amount of goods and that

 9     they could meet the demands of the population with their own supplies,

10     seeing that the evacuation would be completed tomorrow quite soon, and

11     then this food was surplus, something to that effect.

12             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] I have no other questions.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Krgovic.

14             MR. KRGOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, my name is Dragan Krgovic and I'm

17     representing General Gvero and will be asking you just a few questions

18     now.

19             Today in your evidence, answering to the questions asked by my

20     colleague Mr. Gosnell, you said that sometime on the 12th of July in the

21     afternoon together with Mladic you went to Srebrenica; do you recall

22     that?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   And you stayed there for about an hour with him?

25        A.   Yes, about an hour.

Page 27261

 1        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to go into the town of Srebrenica

 2     itself on the 12th?

 3        A.   Well, you cannot get into Srebrenica at all.  You had to pass

 4     through the whole of the town because there's only one street there.

 5     That town has only one street, and there is a very small junction there.

 6        Q.   And did you linger, did you stay at any of the locations around

 7     the town or inside the town?

 8        A.   We stayed for awhile by the department store because I noticed

 9     there a journalist, a female journalist, that's what I concluded on the

10     basis of what she was doing she was talking to with two civilians, I

11     think they were Muslims, and Mladic got out and spoke to her while I

12     remained in the car, I was waiting for this to finish.

13        Q.   Let me just clarify for the transcript.  The first part of your

14     answer is not clear.  When you said that you cannot go into Srebrenica,

15     that means that you actually have to pass through the street and then get

16     to the --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness and

18     counsel please make pauses between questions and answers because then we

19     will have no problems for the transcript.

20             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop.  Mr. Simic, there is a small

22     problem which has been brought about by the fact that both you and

23     Mr. Krgovic speak the same language.  You have not allowed sufficient

24     time, sufficient pause after his question for the interpreters to be able

25     to interpret what you were saying.  So we have missed completely your

Page 27262

 1     answer.  When Mr. Krgovic puts a question to you, you need to allow a few

 2     seconds before you start answering the question, and then it should be

 3     okay.

 4             So --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I do apologise, I will do my best.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Everyone does it, Mr. Simic.  So we are not blaming

 7     you at all.

 8             The question was, "let me just clarify for the transcript, the

 9     first part of your answer is not clear when you said that you cannot go

10     into Srebrenica, that means that you actually have to pass through the

11     street and then get to the --"

12             MR. KRGOVIC:

13        Q.   And then you come to this junction?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  And you also allow for a short pause, Mr.

16     Krgovic.  Thank you, please proceed.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'll do my best.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  But the thing is this, now he said just yes, and it

19     was before I recall hearing him speak for at least 6, 7, 8, 10 seconds.

20     So what was he saying before?

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'll ask the witness to repeat.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Your answer to the same question before when I

23     stopped you was much longer than the yes that you have just spoken now.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Perhaps I can assist by describing

25     it now.  So if you want to get to the centre of the town, there is only

Page 27263

 1     one street leading from the direction of Bratunac, and then you have to

 2     pass through more than half of the town because Srebrenica has only one

 3     street.  It's some kind of a stream or a creek.  And it's kind of like a

 4     gully, and there's not much space for buildings to be put up.  It just

 5     goes, there's this one street that it goes through this gully where

 6     Srebrenica is.  And by the time we got to the department store, we had

 7     already passed through more than half of the town itself.  That was the

 8     essence.

 9             So as we went by this street to the department store, we passed

10     through more than half of the town, and that was the only road that we

11     could take from Bratunac in the direction of Srebrenica.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, where did you go from that junction?

14        A.   We went on taking the same street from that junction.  I can

15     mention some of the buildings that we passed, the municipality assembly,

16     the court, the culture hall, and since the general wanted to go to

17     Banja Guber.

18             Because he had heard about it, he had never been there and he

19     wanted to see the spring for this water, he asked me if I could show him

20     the way and take them to the spring.  So we are heading towards the Banja

21     Guber spring which is outside of the city limits, so we passed through

22     the whole town.  We passed by the last buildings on our way to where this

23     healing water spring is used, this water is -- there is this building,

24     this was operational before the war.

25             At any rate, he wanted to check what the situation was there,

Page 27264

 1     whether could be made operational again.  So we went on to Banja Guber

 2     and there was a spring by the side of the road that's not the main spring

 3     but it is used generally by the people, people could bathe themselves in

 4     it.  That's what people did because there were all kinds of beliefs what

 5     good it does to you.  So we stopped there, and then when we went further

 6     on, the road was damaged because of the rains, and the stones that were

 7     used to pave the road were all over the place, so we had -- and there was

 8     a tree, so we had to remove the obstacles.  And then we went to the level

 9     ground from which you can see the spring because the spring is to a side,

10     it's a hilly area.  The road leads right into the hills.  So we went to

11     this building which was used for recreational purposes.  You could have a

12     drink there, tourists walked, used to walk all the way up there, and then

13     walk down to their hotel, wherever it was that they stayed during the

14     cures.  And then we went up to the level ground to the platform, I showed

15     him where the spring was, but he didn't go to the springs, we just turned

16     around and went back.

17        Q.   So, in fact, you toured the whole of Srebrenica on that occasion?

18        A.   Yes, more or less the whole of Srebrenica.  There was this area

19     in direction of Jadar that we didn't go to, but you can see this area

20     towards Jadar when you turn towards Guber from the culture hall, so the

21     whole town was in our field of vision.  We could see it.

22        Q.   Mr. Simic, can you tell us what condition were the buildings in

23     the town itself of Srebrenica?  Did you notice anything strange, the

24     impact sites, signs of shelling?

25        A.   Well, the road was passable, it was dirty, as dirty as the roads

Page 27265

 1     were during the war because it was difficult to clean them.  The only

 2     difference was that Srebrenica was different because there was a lot of

 3     wood that was used for fuel, wood piles in front of the houses.  It

 4     looked like a huge wood shed.  And it would be quite difficult to

 5     actually move around the town for pedestrians and for cars to move around

 6     because of that.  Had the traffic been any heavier, but I found it quite

 7     surprising, and I was quite pleased with it that there was not so much

 8     consequences of the shelling.  If I thought that there would be stray

 9     dogs who might be hit with something in the heavy fighting and it was

10     high summer, and I was quite pleasantly surprised that I didn't see any

11     of it.  And Srebrenica looked like a normal town, only it was abandoned.

12     It was empty.  There were no people.  Just the two civilians that I

13     described to you that the journalist, the female journalist was talking

14     to.

15        Q.   Did you notice any damage to the buildings that you mentioned,

16     the municipality building, the hospital, the culture hall?

17        A.   Well, the hospital is to the left.  As we passed by we could only

18     see the wall and the roof.  You could not see any damage.  You could not

19     see any signs that it had been torched or looted.  It looked like it used

20     to look before.

21             As for the buildings up there, you could see that there was some

22     damage caused in the fighting earlier on because of the time and the

23     atmosphere, you could see that shell had fallen here or there, but you

24     could see that this was all the damage.  It changed colour.  I could see

25     in the Bratunac what it looks like when a shell impacts, and quite to my

Page 27266

 1     surprise, I didn't notice any of it as we passed through Srebrenica.  I

 2     had thought since there had been fighting, that there would be chaos and

 3     that it would be bad in the streets.  That's why I was not really so

 4     happy when general invited me to go with him.

 5        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to pass by the UNPROFOR base in the

 6     town of Srebrenica itself?

 7        A.   Yes, I think that the base was somewhere close to the city

 8     cemetery, I think further in the front.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. Krgovic, I have to stop you there.  We

10     need to evacuate the building.  We need to evacuate the building, we've

11     just been informed that, the Court room and the building, so we'll have

12     the break now in any case.  But you will have to evacuate the building as

13     per instructions that were circulated before.  We will reconvene, if at

14     all, after the drill is over.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16                           12.26 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd

17                           day of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.