Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28360

 1                           Tuesday, 18 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon -- good morning, everybody.  I've

 7     been working already a few hours.  That's the reason.  So Madam

 8     Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

10     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All the accused are here.  Prosecution,

12     it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Mitchell.  Is there anyone else there?  No.

13     The Defence teams absentees are today Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Lazarevic, and

14     Mr. Haynes.

15             Mr. Obradovic, good morning to you.  All right.  It will soon be

16     over.  Mr. McCloskey is going to finish his cross-examination, and then

17     we see if there is re-examination, and you can go home.

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,

20     everyone.

21                           WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR OBRADOVIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning, General Obradovic.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 28361

 1        Q.   Now, I would like to go to the time-period when you got to Crna

 2     Rijeka on the 17th of July.  From the 17th to, oh, roughly the first part

 3     of August, did you come to work every day at Crna Rijeka?

 4        A.   My place of residence and work was there, and I didn't go

 5     elsewhere but to Crna Rijeka.

 6        Q.   Basically, you stayed there the whole time?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And was General Miletic there doing the same thing with you,

 9     sleeping and working at Crna Rijeka that month of July after you got

10     there?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   How about General Milovanovic?  We've seen on a film that he came

13     to Zivanovic's going-away function out at the Jela Restaurant.  I think

14     it was on the 20th.  Do you recall whether Milovanovic actually came to

15     Crna Rijeka at all during July?

16        A.   On that 20th of July -- excuse me.  Before the -- before the

17     departure of General Milovanovic at the Jela Restaurant, the referring

18     was prepared, which was conducted by General Milovanovic.

19        Q.   Can you -- we got a translation of a word I don't quite

20     understand.  Can you describe to -- what it was that General Milovanovic

21     did as translated to me as a "referring"?

22        A.   No.  In fact, he chaired the process.

23        Q.   Okay.  And what was the process?  What was this?  Was it the

24     morning staff meeting or something special?

25        A.   No, sir.  The commander of the corps were informed that they had

Page 28362

 1     to come, or if they couldn't come that they had to send their deputies

 2     upon the departure -- to the departure of General Milovanovic, and they

 3     were instructed to prepare a briefing about the condition in their

 4     respective sector about the situation with the enemy and the enemy's

 5     intentions and the plans for the coming period.  And before the ceremony

 6     began - at 10.00, I believe; I'm not sure - they started the briefing,

 7     and that briefing took place has Crna Rijeka.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Just to try to understand this, did Milovanovic come by

 9     Crna Rijeka the morning of the 20th, the day of the party?

10        A.   I'm not sure, but I'm sure that he was in charge of the briefing

11     process.  He chaired the briefing possess.

12        Q.   Where was the briefing process?

13        A.   At Crna Rijeka.

14        Q.   So he must have been at Crna Rijeka that day?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Were you at the briefing?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   How do you know about it?

19        A.   From the conversation with the corps commands and the members of

20     the Main Staff that had taken part, I knew about it.

21        Q.   Was General Miletic, to your knowledge, at that morning briefing

22     by Milovanovic?

23        A.   It wasn't a morning briefing.  It was the briefing of the corps

24     commands, the airforce, and anti-aircraft command -- sorry, anti-aircraft

25     defence and the military schools, and General Milovanovic was present at

Page 28363

 1     that briefing.

 2        Q.   Was General Miletic present?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  So I said.  General Miletic was present at that

 4     briefing.

 5        Q.   And there is a little problem with translations.  We're all

 6     waking up, so bear with us.  And I apologise.  I now understand it, it

 7     wasn't a Milovanovic briefing; it was a briefing by the corps to the Main

 8     Staff, then, MUP; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And did you learn what General Krstic had reported to the Main

11     Staff about the situation he was facing in Zepa?

12        A.   He was not at that briefing.

13        Q.   Was he at the party?

14        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.  Because the Jela Motel is a good

15     10 kilometres away from Crna Rijeka, maybe more.

16        Q.   We drove by there a couple of years ago, what's left of it.  How

17     long does it take to get from Crna Rijeka to the Jela Restaurant?

18        A.   20 minutes, 30 minutes.

19        Q.   And was General Mladic at the briefing by the corps commanders?

20        A.   No, he was not present because if he had been he would have been

21     in charge.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, I can tell you, there was a film of that going-away

23     function, and General Krstic was certainly there and gave a speech.  So

24     knowing that he was there at that time, does that help refresh your

25     recollection as to whether he was at the -- the briefing?

Page 28364

 1        A.   No, he wasn't there.

 2        Q.   And you specifically remember General Miletic telling you Krstic

 3     wasn't there?

 4        A.   I don't know if General Miletic said so to me, but I don't think

 5     that Zivanovic was there either.  So neither the commander nor the Chief

 6     of Staff was there, because at that time I don't know if Krstic had

 7     already been appointed commander, but neither Zivanovic nor Krstic were

 8     there.

 9        Q.   And who told you that?

10        A.   Colonel Malcic was at the briefing, too, from the sector for

11     organisation, mob [as interpreted], and personal affairs.

12        Q.   So he's the one that told you that Mladic -- sorry, that

13     Zivanovic and Krstic were not at the morning briefing?

14        A.   I inquired about it, and we spoke about the persons who were

15     present and how the briefing went, so that's how I learned about it.  But

16     I didn't ask specific questions about the presence of Generals Zivanovic

17     or Krstic.

18        Q.   Well, where did you learn they were at that time when they didn't

19     go to the briefing?  I think when Milovanovic orders the presence of

20     corps commanders, they generally show up or have a very good excuse.

21        A.   I think it was an order issued by the commander of the Main

22     Staff, and I know that from the East Bosnian Corps the commander didn't

23     come, but instead, his Chief of Staff, General Gabric.

24        Q.   So did you learn where Krstic and Zivanovic were?

25        A.   No, I didn't ask questions about that.

Page 28365

 1        Q.   Now, on the going-away film, we see Mladic flying in in a little

 2     helicopter.  Where he was he coming from, to your knowledge?  You were --

 3     you know, you were at the -- probably the ops room that day, and I'm sure

 4     at the ops room you keep track where -- well, you try to keep track where

 5     General Mladic is.

 6        A.   I think that he had come from the area of Zepa.

 7        Q.   Tell us what you know about that.  What he had he been doing in

 8     Zepa that day?

 9        A.   I cannot tell you what he was doing.  I don't know.  I wasn't

10     with him.

11        Q.   Was General Gvero at the briefing by the corps command?

12        A.   I don't remember.

13        Q.   How about General Tolimir?

14        A.   No, I don't know.

15        Q.   Okay.  Aside from that briefing that you'd heard about that

16     General Milovanovic led, were you aware of General Milovanovic coming to

17     Crna Rijeka on any other day in July?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Where did he go after the party, Milovanovic?

20        A.   He went west to the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina

21     Corps.

22        Q.   Back to that very serious situation regarding the Croat

23     offensive?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, you've said a couple of things about the Zepa

Page 28366

 1     operation and the Main Staff involvement.  The Main Staff ordered that

 2     attack on Zepa, didn't they?

 3        A.   I can say yes when it comes to what was written in the directive;

 4     whether there was a specific command, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Well, if I showed you a 10 July order by General Mladic to attack

 6     Zepa, would that seem at all odd to you?

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8        Q.   And surely you and the people at the ops room and the operation

 9     and training centre in the Main Staff would have been receiving daily and

10     interim combat reports from the Drina Corps on the Zepa operation; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  One moment, before we proceed to your next

14     question.  To the previous question, the witness did answer, but we have

15     no reflection of his answer in the transcript, line 6 of page 7.

16             The question was as follows, Mr. Obradovic: "Well, if I showed

17     you a 10 July order by General Mladic to attack Zepa, would that seem at

18     all odd to you?"

19             What was your answer to that question?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it would not seem odd to me if

21     there is such an order.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Okay.  And then I ask you about the daily interim reports.  You

25     said "yes."  And in fact, General Miletic would have been receiving a

Page 28367

 1     morning and an evening phone call from the 65th Protection Regiment as

 2     you have testified earlier, as well, correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And since, as you've already testified, the 65th had elements

 5     involved in the Zepa operation, General Miletic would have received

 6     information about the 65th's involvement from those phone calls?

 7        A.   I suppose that the regiment commander spoke to him about all his

 8     subordinated units and their condition on any day.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And on the -- that saves a lot of documents that we don't

10     have to go through.  And on the 17th, that day that you got there, was

11     General Mladic around Crna Rijeka?

12        A.   I don't know where he was.  I reported to my commanding officer

13     upon my arrival, General Miletic, and General Mladic is only the third

14     up.

15        Q.   Certainly, sir, you're going to know your immediate command chain

16     and, for example, as we know, Mladic has got his helicopter; he takes off

17     to Belgrade; he goes to various battle fronts; and you have told us that

18     when he leaves he put somebody in charge.  So when he leaves, you're

19     going to know who is in charge, aren't you?

20        A.   He reports to the one he authorises to take over in his stead.

21     He doesn't report to me.  I am small fry for him.

22        Q.   No, of course, he doesn't.  But you're going to know -- you're

23     going to know if Mladic is around or not.  It's a little different

24     environment when Mladic isn't around, right?

25        A.   Well, it isn't usual for all subordinated officers to know where

Page 28368

 1     their commander is.  Sometimes it's -- that's classified information.

 2     Sometimes he doesn't want others to know for security reasons and other

 3     reasons.

 4        Q.   Sir, you're the chief of operations.  You're at the operations

 5     room.  You would have known where General Mladic was at all times,

 6     wouldn't you?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   You should have known.  You would have liked to know.  Let's say

 9     you would have liked to know, wouldn't you?

10        A.   I'm not that curious.

11        Q.   Okay.  If General Mladic isn't there, General Tolimir is out at

12     Borike, General Milovanovic is out on the western front, who would be the

13     usual people that Mladic would have put in charge?  You?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   We got that out of the way.

16        A.   No way.

17        Q.   Who?

18        A.   Well, some of his assistants to who he gave an oral approval or

19     otherwise authorised them to take over some of the responsibility, but

20     the mere physical absence of the commander from the site does not mean

21     that he sheds his command responsibilities.  He -- so his authorities

22     always stay with him, no matter where he is.  So wherever he is in the

23     Republika Srpska, he can command from wherever he is.

24        Q.   We understand that, of course.  I'm just going on what you

25     testified in direct examination that when Mladic left, he put somebody in

Page 28369

 1     charge.  I didn't say "in command."  I don't know how it got translated.

 2     So --

 3        A.   One of the assistants.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Who's left then?  What are our options?  You want me to

 5     help you?

 6        A.   We're talking about his assistants, one of the assistants of the

 7     commander.

 8        Q.   In July 1995, who would that have been?

 9        A.   The assistants?

10        Q.   Yes.  That he would have put in charge?

11        A.   The head of the morale sector; the head of the mobilization,

12     personnel affairs; the head of the sector for intelligence and security;

13     or the head of the airforce and anti-aircraft defence; or, finally, the

14     head of the administration for planning and development.

15        Q.   Well, I had mentioned to you that -- as we know, that Tolimir is

16     in Borike most of this time period, so let's cut out the head of the

17     intel and security.  Of the individuals you've mentioned, who would have

18     been Mladic's most trusted assistant?

19        A.   The fact that General Tolimir was at Borike, which was in the

20     immediate vicinity, and that was a forward command post of the Rogatica

21     Brigade, or it was called the Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.  It may

22     have been General Tolimir, and it would be speculation for me to try to

23     establish who was -- who the one was because I had no information, no

24     special information, and he assigned tasks to his assistants; and I, as a

25     chief of department, did not have to know who of his assistants was

Page 28370

 1     there.

 2        Q.   That wasn't my question.  My question, General, was of General

 3     Gvero and the logistics guy and the airforce guy, who is the most trusted

 4     by General Mladic?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to a couple of documents.  I just want to get

 7     your take on a couple of documents.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter number 192.

 9        Q.   And as we're getting that, did General Miletic, during July, was

10     he able to pass on orders from his superiors to subordinates?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And was he able to give orders to subordinates?

13        A.   Those who were subordinate to General Miletic were the chief of

14     the department for operations and the chief of the department for

15     training.  He didn't have other subordinates.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's -- let's look at this document that's on the screen,

17     and I think it's a one-pager, so you'll be able to -- you know, I

18     don't -- that screen is hard to deal with sometimes.  If I can just give

19     you this so you -- now, this is a document dated 13 July in the name of

20     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.

21             We've seen Savcic earlier making a recommendation on -- a very

22     serious recommendation, and this is something similar to that.  And we

23     see here that Savcic is passing on to General Mladic and to General Gvero

24     a proposal from General Tolimir about what's --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 28371

 1             MR. JOSSE:  I'm loathe to interrupt, Your Honour, but prior to

 2     the court starting, my client pointed out to me that he was unable to

 3     change his monitor from LiveNote to any of the documents, to e-court.  A

 4     technician came in here, I saw, after, hasn't solved the problem.  What I

 5     resolved was only to interrupt if a document was put on the screen that

 6     related directly to my client.  This obviously does.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.

 8             MR. JOSSE:  And I have decided to interrupt.  I think he would

 9     like to be able to follow, of course.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.  Is the situation the same, General

11     Gvero?  You still can't see documents on the monitor?

12             THE ACCUSED GVERO: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  General Pandurevic, are you in the same position,

14     or is this a problem only with General Gvero?

15             THE ACCUSED PANDUREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can see

16     the documents.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So what I suggest is that for the time

18     being General Gvero moves near, if that's okay with the security

19     officers, and he can follow from there.  All right.  We've solved it.

20             MR. JOSSE:  Thank you for so organising.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   Okay, General, that gave you a little chance to take a look at

24     this, but as I was saying, this is Savcic passing on Tolimir's proposal

25     to General Mladic and for information to General Gvero and the commander

Page 28372

 1     of the military police battalion of the 65th protection regiment

 2     regarding treatment of prisoners of war.  And the part I wanted to ask

 3     you about is number 4 --

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's page 2 in the English.

 5        Q.   And it says: "Once the commander of the military police battalion

 6     receives this order, he shall contact General Miletic and receive from

 7     him additional orders and verify if the proposal has been approved by the

 8     commander of the Main Staff."

 9             So this document, obviously, anticipates General Miletic giving

10     orders, and he would be giving orders to the commander of the military

11     police battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment, correct?

12        A.   No, that's not correct.  In the second part of the sentence, it

13     says:  "Verify if the proposal has been approved by the commander of the

14     Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska."  This document is vague.

15     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic is ordering his battalion commander to report

16     to the chief of the administration for operations and training and to

17     verify whether the proposal put forward by one of the commander's

18     assistants, General Tolimir, has been approved.  And yet, he has

19     addressed this document to the assistant for morale who is issuing orders

20     to the commander of the military police battalion.

21             So it's illogical.  How can the commander of the regiment have

22     orders issued to him by the commander of the Main Staff, and this is sent

23     to him for his information, and the lower-ranking officer is supposed to

24     verify what the assistant of the commander has ordered, whether it's been

25     approved or not.  There is no logic here at all.

Page 28373

 1        Q.   Well, the Prosecution would disagree with you on that, sir, but

 2     perhaps General Tolimir can solve the problem.  My question is very

 3     simple.  Paragraph 4 says that the commander of the military police

 4     battalion will receive from him, from General Miletic, additional orders,

 5     doesn't it?  It's very clear.

 6        A.   According to this, orders are issued to the commander of the

 7     military police battalion by his commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.

 8     Why would his subordinate commander, for whom he is responsible, have

 9     orders issued to him by the chief of the administration for operations

10     and training?

11        Q.   You think you could ask that question to General Miletic had he

12     issued this order?  What do you think would happen to you if when you

13     received this you called General Tolimir and said, General Tolimir, your

14     proposal is -- makes no sense and General Miletic can't order anybody.

15     What do you think Tolimir would say to you about that?

16        A.   Your Honours, this is not a document issued by General Tolimir.

17     It was issued by Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.

18        Q.   Sir, as we've soon before in the document you talked about,

19     Savcic was relied upon to pass on proposals from people.  I'm sure that

20     everyone at the Main Staff would rely on the commander of the 65th

21     Protection Regiment who was living with General Tolimir at Borike at the

22     time to pass on if an order for -- or a proposal for General Tolimir.

23     But be that as it may, I think we can leave it at there, and I -- we can

24     go on to the next document.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter number 183.  And if -- now,

Page 28374

 1     this one's very short, but it's still going to be small.  So this is a 14

 2     July document.  This time, Tolimir has got his actual name at the bottom

 3     of it from the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

 4        Q.   That's Rogatica not far from Borike, right?

 5        A.   The 1st Podrinje Brigade had a permanent place in Rogatica.

 6        Q.   Right.  And that's not far from Borike?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And in this document from General Tolimir, we see that

 9     he's saying: "In order to monitor activities at Zepa..."  I won't go into

10     all of that, but he clearly is telling General Miletic personally that

11     it's necessary to incorporate the Main Staff work plan -- or incorporate

12     the Main Staff and the Drina Corps together in their radio work plans for

13     communication.

14             Why is it that General Tolimir would be directing this

15     specifically to General Miletic?

16        A.   Your Honours, General Miletic was deputising for General

17     Milovanovic within the staff, and in the organs for arms of service there

18     was Colonel Prole, Lieutenant-Colonel Radakovic, and Major Stojanovic.

19     And they functioned as communications organs.  As General Milovanovic was

20     absent, and in the staff General Miletic was deputising for him, then he

21     sent this to him.  If I have to comment on the document ...

22        Q.   You're free to if you want to.

23        A.   It's usual when something is being planned, a combat action, when

24     the plans and preparations are being made to organise communications

25     between the units involved in that combat activity.  The combat

Page 28375

 1     activities don't begin unless there is a communications plan.  This is

 2     something unplanned.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And just to try to clarify the translation issue, you told

 4     us that General Miletic was -- or that General Miletic was deputising for

 5     General Milovanovic.  Do you mean standing in for?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat his answer.  It was

 7     overlapping.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Sorry, you need to repeat your answer.

10        A.   He was replacing him in organising work at the command post,

11     because the organs for arms of service were directly subordinate to

12     General Milovanovic as was the administration for operations and

13     training; and as the senior officer in the staff after the Chief of

14     Staff, General Miletic conveyed tasks and was responsible for discipline

15     and order in that part of the staff where those organs for arms of

16     service were and these communications men.

17        Q.   And this particular communications issue of -- of coordinating

18     the Drina Corps and Main Staff, that's rather an essential task for the

19     operation of the Zepa battlefield, isn't it?

20        A.   Communications with the corps existed previously according to the

21     appropriate communications plan; however, this required additional

22     organisation of communications, or the Main Staff had to be asked to

23     organise this for that part of the war theater around Zepa.  This is

24     something unusual because usually these communications plans are drawn up

25     before combat activities begin.

Page 28376

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document.  It's 65 ter 2518.

 3        Q.   But you would agree with me that this is a very important thing,

 4     this coordinating communications between the Main Staff and the corps,

 5     this job that Miletic is doing?

 6        A.   Organisation of communications is done by the superior command

 7     vis-a-vis their subordinates, and this is done through the communications

 8     organ, not through Miletic.

 9        Q.   Sir, I am talking about the document.  The job that is referred

10     specifically and personally to Miletic is an important -- this is an

11     important task that he is to do for General Tolimir, isn't it?  Or maybe

12     it isn't.  Maybe Tolimir just wrote this thing and didn't think it was

13     that big a deal.

14        A.   He wouldn't have written him -- written this had he not

15     considered it important.  That was his view of this problem because there

16     is mention here of securing radio apparatus 2K with a cryptographic

17     protection, and the title of the document is "Protection of Secret

18     Military Information."  So through the communications organ, means have

19     to be found to be used on the radio communications down there where

20     combat activities are going on in order to prevent leakage of

21     confidential military information, because as you see, it says here:

22     "Protection of Confidential Military Information."  And it refers

23     specifically to the KZU 63, which was to be given to him.

24        Q.   I think we're going to see some intercepts in a moment, so we'll

25     get a better understanding of how just important radio communications

Page 28377

 1     would have been.  But I'm more interested in your view, whether this is

 2     important, this task.  Was it important?  Yes or no.

 3        A.   Well, communications are important for any army, any military.

 4        Q.   Thank you, General.  All right.  Looking at this document - let

 5     me give you the hard copy - this is a 15 July document and under the name

 6     of General Miletic it -- the English is "Chief of Staff representative."

 7     It should be, I believe, "standing in for."  Just a translation differ.

 8             And there is a little handwritten scrawl at the top.  I don't

 9     know if you can make it out, but our interpreters looking at this have

10     noted that it says: "As promised by Major-General Miletic, 50 MUP men

11     should come from Bijeljina during the night of the 15th and 16th July,

12     1995."  And we see that this is sent to the Drina Corps, and I believe

13     this document came from the Drina Corps archives.  So I would suggest

14     that somebody from the Drina Corps received this document and then

15     scrawled that on the top, though you may disagree with me.

16             Now, we see here that, here, General Miletic is reporting on the

17     dispatch of people from your old unit - I think that's your old unit -

18     the 1st Krajina Corps, to help Vinko Pandurevic at the Zvornik Brigade.

19     So what -- what function is General Miletic filling now in, basically,

20     sending troops from one corps to another?

21        A.   Miletic isn't sending this.  This is not an order.  He's

22     providing information.  Probably, this was written based on the

23     commander's decision.

24        Q.   Certainly, I am sure the commander had a role in this, but what

25     is Miletic's role providing this information where he is saying what time

Page 28378

 1     the march should start and other directives in here?  What role is he --

 2     what function is he fulfilling in the various functions and roles you've

 3     been describing for us?

 4        A.   He's conveying an order from the commander.  This is not his

 5     decision.  The commander can be far away from the ops room.  He can be

 6     10, 20 kilometres away, but he can pick up a telephone or go to the

 7     command post of a subordinate unit, and say to Miletic, There's a request

 8     from such and such a unit for this and this, write an informative

 9     document about this.  And based on this, he would draw up this sort of --

10     this sort of note, because this is not an order; this is information.

11        Q.   Okay.  But wouldn't it normally kind of go the other away around

12     that the ops room or someone at the operations department would find out

13     that through the Drina Corps that the Zvornik Brigade needed more help;

14     somebody from operations or somewhere else would make a proposal to

15     General Mladic or whoever was in charge that that person that was in

16     charge -- or excuse me, was in command would then issue the order to send

17     the unit to Zvornik; and then the operations unit would type up this

18     information and send it off to make sure it happened the way the proposal

19     to the commander went and the commander's order reflecting that proposal

20     went?  Isn't that the more normal way as opposed to, you know, General

21     Mladic finding out himself and then coming down to the ops room?

22        A.   This sort of request should be sent to the commander.  Whether he

23     received it in a written or oral form, I don't know.  But if he didn't

24     know whether any unit had available forces, he would ask us whether we

25     knew through following our own forces whether there were forces

Page 28379

 1     available.  If he knew, he would say, Send this and that from such and

 2     such a corps.

 3        Q.   Of course.  So the operations department would play a role in

 4     this whole process and the eventual sending of this information?

 5        A.   Yes.  We don't make decisions.  We only execute the commander's

 6     orders.

 7        Q.   But you influence the command by making proposals to the

 8     commander, don't you, because you know more details then he does?

 9        A.   In this specific case, there is no room for suggestions or

10     proposals.  If he issues an order and says, Do this, he's not asking us

11     for suggestions.  He's saying, Write up this and that, and that's it.

12        Q.   I understand.  I don't want to argue with you about this, but

13     surely, General Mladic doesn't know whether or not the 1st Krajina Corps

14     can afford to break away one group.  That's something that the operations

15     guys that have a view of all the corps are better off to proposing the

16     commander; isn't that right?

17        A.   Well, no.  He might have contacted General Talic, the commander

18     of the 1st Krajina Corps, prior to this and asked him about available

19     forces, because at a certain point, he knew the plan of the corps better

20     than we did in the administration for operations and training.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, you're not quite there yet.  It's still the 15th, so

22     let's not speculate on what he might have done.  I was just trying to get

23     the process sorted out.  But in looking at that little comment at the

24     top, if this is in fact from a Drina Corps officer receiving this

25     information, this would indicate that someone has spoken to General

Page 28380

 1     Miletic and that Miletic has promised MUP units as well.  So that

 2     would -- would it be normal for the Drina Corps to call the Main Staff

 3     and actually speak to Miletic and give an oral indication of their

 4     extreme needs on -- for combat reinforcements?

 5        A.   First, General Miletic or the commander of the Main Staff do not

 6     have the right to involve units of the police.  There is certainly a

 7     high-level decision involved here through the Ministry of the Interior

 8     and the commander of chief towards the Main Staff to involve these

 9     forces.  Well, I'm speculating now, but maybe General Miletic had this

10     information, and he said in a conversation, You will receive this, and

11     then this person interpreted this as General Miletic's promise, but he

12     can't promise to give me something that he does not have at his disposal.

13        Q.   Well, you know Mr. Borovcanin, I take it?

14        A.   Not especially.  I've heard of him.

15        Q.   Well, we won't get into all the MUP involvement and Kovac's

16     approval with Karadzic and Mladic about supplying MUP units to the

17     Srebrenica area, but I appreciate your comments.  I don't think they were

18     speculative.

19             Let's go to another -- let's now go to an intercept that

20     apparently the Muslims heard in the view of the Prosecution, despite

21     General Tolimir's, though it does not have to do with Zepa, so maybe

22     General Tolimir was effective.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Its' 65 ter 1198.  C is the English.  B is the

24     B/C/S.  And this is just a -- it's a short synopsis that we believe is a

25     Muslim intercept operator writing down a synopsis of something he'd

Page 28381

 1     heard.

 2        Q.   It actually sounds a bit like you were just talking about,

 3     because if you will see it -- it should come up, but I'll read it to you

 4     so you can hear it before you read it.  Actually, if you can check out

 5     that highlighted one, that'll help.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's, I think, on the next page for everyone else

 7     in B/C/S.  Yes, it's -- you've got to bring it up a little bit.  There

 8     you go.  It's that part on the bottom.

 9        Q.   And the synopsis says: "At General Mladic's request, received

10     through Miletic, Colonel Cerovic asked Blagojevic 'all day long' to send

11     some men or a unit.  At 2006 hours, Blagojevic reports that five minutes

12     or half an hour ago 50 men left and that he has 60 more down at

13     Kovacevici."

14             So what the Muslims captured, does that make sense to you?

15     Wasn't that what you were talking about?

16        A.   I don't know what you mean when you say "I was talking about".

17        Q.   Well, as I read this, it looks like the Muslims overheard Miletic

18     talking to Cerovic saying, Hey, Mladic wants Blagojevic to send men, all

19     day long, somewhere.  And then -- well, to Blagojevic.  We know

20     Blagojevic is the Bratunac Brigade.  We know he sent men up to Zvornik

21     because of the situation Pandurevic was facing.  That's what I mean.

22        A.   Yes.  This says, At General Mladic's request through Miletic,

23     Colonel Cerovic asked Blagojevic.  And this, in inverted commas, I think

24     refers to the engagement of these 50 men, so that they were used all day.

25        Q.   And again, this shows Miletic's involvement in this reinforcement

Page 28382

 1     process, correct?

 2        A.   Yes, but General Mladic is mentioned as preceding that.  So it

 3     wasn't the decision of General Miletic.  It was -- it originated from the

 4     chief of the Main Staff.

 5        Q.   Yes, I agree with you.  That's why I said this sounded like your

 6     earlier answer.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  But Miletic is doing his job?

 9        A.   He has to.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 3923.

12        Q.   But before we get that, we've heard before -- in this courtroom,

13     and I don't want to go over this with you, but that when a subordinate

14     officer receives an illegal order from a superior, he is duty-bound not

15     to follow it, by JNA, by VRS rules.  I am sure you would agree with that.

16     Is it -- what's the situation when, for example, Mladic passes -- wants

17     Miletic to pass on an illegal order?  Is Miletic duty-bound to do

18     anything when he receives that illegal order from Mladic to pass on, to

19     say, someone in the Drina Corps?

20        A.   The responsibility lies with the one who executes the order,

21     because the rules say the order must be executed in due time and

22     accurately without opposition except when the execution of such an order

23     would be a criminal act or a crime.  And in this case, he doesn't have to

24     know what the police will be used for.  And the responsibility lies with

25     those who execute the order whether they will do it or not.

Page 28383

 1        Q.   So when you say "police" you mean military police?

 2        A.   No.  This -- the police mentioned here I don't believe is

 3     military police.  Or -- but it isn't important.  The people employed

 4     here -- anyway, it says duty to pass this on.  This isn't a problem in

 5     itself.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I apologise.  I did not mean for you to be looking at any

 7     document for this question.  This is a question that is not meant to have

 8     any document, and I'm not suggesting anything about the civilian police

 9     in this question.  Let me give you a hypothetical.  Maybe we can make it

10     clearer.

11             If General Mladic orders General Miletic to order General -- or

12     to pass on his order to Cerovic to steal four buses from the MUP, a

13     criminal act, if -- is General Miletic obliged to pass on this illegal

14     order to the Drina Corps, or is it his duty not to?

15        A.   He has to execute it, and if he thinks that's a criminal act, he

16     can turn to the second in command or to the superior officer of the one

17     who issued the order; that is, the commander-in-chief.

18        Q.   All right.  Let me change the hypothetical.  If Mladic says to

19     Miletic, General Miletic, I want men -- I want 500 men in a school killed

20     --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let him finish the question.  Go ahead with the

22     question, please.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   General Miletic, I want 500 men in a school killed; pass on my

25     order to kill those men to the Drina Corps now.  What is the duty of

Page 28384

 1     General Miletic?

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Do you still want to object, Mr. Petrusic,

 3     having heard the question now?

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I object.  This calls for

 5     speculation and is totally unfounded in anything what the Prosecutor is

 6     saying.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

 8             MR. JOSSE:  Could I put it slightly differently and ask

 9     rhetorically through Your Honours, what does it matter what this witness

10     says in relation to this particular issue?  It's a matter of legal

11     interpretation of JNA, VRS, and other military rules that my learned

12     friend is asking the witness.  And the witness isn't really competent to

13     deal with this, in our submission.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  The -- it's the

16     Prosecution's burden to prove criminal intent, and when they receive an

17     illegal order - I think we have clearly established what that means -

18     what would be in the mind of a trained JNA officer -- what I want to do

19     is see if I can determine credibly what would be in the mind of a trained

20     JNA officer or a VRS officer when he is told to pass on an illegal order

21     because that will help us in our ability to get in the minds of the

22     accused, which is what we have to do when we prove criminal intent.  So

23     while yes, under the Geneva Conventions it's your duty, of course, to

24     determine whether we have proven our -- the mens rea of this crime, but I

25     think as getting into what a VRS officer might be thinking when he

Page 28385

 1     receives this is potentially important.  I mean, clearly, why else did we

 2     spend three or four days going over the RS rules if it wasn't to get a

 3     feel for what's in their mind?  I mean, the RS rules aren't what are at

 4     play here.  It's the Geneva Conventions.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, by majority vote, Judge Prost dissenting, we

 8     agree with the objection raised by Mr. Josse.  We don't agree with your

 9     objection, Mr. Petrusic, so we move to your next question, please,

10     Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would like us now to

12     see 65 ter number 3923.

13        Q.   And this is a document, giving the General a hard copy, that is

14     from the Main Staff.  We see its from 03-4, which in the operations

15     centre or from the operations unit, dated 21 July 1995.  It's very

16     urgent, entitled:  "The dispatch of a motorised company from the 16th

17     Krajina to the area of Trnovo."  And it's entitled an order, and it's to

18     the command of the Drina Corps and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

19             And as we look at the back of it, standing in for the Chief of

20     Staff, Major-General Radivoje Miletic.  And it describes the 16th Krajina

21     Motorised Brigade, and it says that it's been engaged in the composition

22     of the 1st Zvornik infantry brigade in the search of the terrain, the

23     blocking and destruction of crashed Muslim forces from Srebrenica and the

24     wide area of Mount Urdic from 16 to 20 July.  And it says: "For the

25     execution of the following task, I order ..."

Page 28386

 1             Then it basically looks like it's sending them on to the Trnovo

 2     front with some details.

 3             Now, sir, this is the same unit that we saw the information

 4     document authored by General Miletic that reflected the information of a

 5     unit going to the Zvornik Brigade, and now we see this -- they are

 6     getting pulled from Zvornik and getting sent to Trnovo, and this is

 7     obviously an order, is it not?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   If we are now at 21 July - so you're fully active, you're trying,

10     I'm sure, to get caught up with what's going on - we see that this is

11     coming out of your operations room or operations area.  Do you remember

12     this, first of all?  I know it was a long time ago.

13        A.   No, I don't remember it.

14        Q.   Okay.  And can you explain, what function is General Miletic

15     fulfilling now as he is, as you've agreed with me, actually issuing an

16     order, "I order ..." and the name of General Miletic?

17        A.   Well, yes.  There is a block signature, and it says "SR," and

18     according to the instruction about office -- office operations and

19     archiving, there is no such SR clause.  It would be good who -- good to

20     know whose signature this is.

21        Q.   I agree with you.  It would be good.  But teletypes don't give a

22     signature.  So let's take the document at its face, and what function,

23     now, is Miletic fulfilling in issuing this order?

24        A.   Well, he would be the commander.  It would be the function of a

25     commander, but he doesn't have that function.  We can't take it for

Page 28387

 1     granted, as it doesn't bear his signature.

 2        Q.   Sir, this is a document that came out of the Drina Corps

 3     archives.  It's stamped, and let's take it as a serious document.  And

 4     it's simple enough for General Mladic to -- to give General Miletic the

 5     authority to issue orders, isn't it?

 6        A.   That can be, but then it would -- there would be his signature.

 7     I don't know why there is this SR clause.  After -- after the name of

 8     General Miletic, there is "SR."

 9        Q.   And I apologise.  This did not come from the Drina Corps

10     collection.  It came from the RS Brana Luka collection.

11             Sir, you know what "SR" stands for, don't you?

12        A.   In the instruction about office operations, which we adhered to.

13     There is no such thing.

14        Q.   But you know what "SR" stands for, and I can tell you, I don't

15     know who or how many, but people have been testifying in this courtroom

16     about what "SR" means for a long time, VRS guys.  So it's not a mystery

17     nor a military secret.

18        A.   I didn't call it either a mystery or a military secret, but I

19     don't know what it is.

20        Q.   It means, according to those witnesses, that the person actually

21     signed it.  Anyway, I don't want to argue whether or not this is his

22     signature or whether or not he's become a commander.  Let's look at

23     that -- let's look at the second page in the English so anyone can see

24     what it says there, on the English.

25             But surely you would remember if General Miletic, shortly after

Page 28388

 1     you getting back to the Main Staff, had the authority to actually issue

 2     orders?

 3        A.   Yes, I would know that.

 4        Q.   Okay.  In the first paragraph, it actually describes what the job

 5     of this Krajina Corps unit had been in Zvornik, searching the terrain,

 6     blocking, and the destruction of the crashed Muslim forces.  So we can

 7     conclude that people in the operations branch actually got a description

 8     of what that Krajina corps unit was doing in Zvornik, correct?

 9        A.   Well, it's stated here in the preamble.

10        Q.   So we can conclude that you received that information?

11        A.   Well, that's a question.  It was engaged as part of the Zvornik

12     Brigade, and someone had decided to resubordinate it and dispatch it to

13     Trnovo to the area of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and to report to

14     someone and execute some tasks.

15        Q.   Sir, it's a simple question.  Can we conclude that the operations

16     branch at the Main Staff received this particular information about what

17     this unit had been doing in Zvornik, searching the terrain, blocking and

18     destroying the Muslim forces?

19        A.   Yes.  So the unit that is supposed to change location and the

20     place of the carrying-out of activities.

21        Q.   Okay.  General, in this --

22        A.   And there is no doubt as to the duties of the unit that it had

23     where it was at that moment.

24        Q.   Okay.  Sir, this courtroom has heard evidence that at the time

25     that this Krajina unit was engaged in the terrain in Zvornik, that a unit

Page 28389

 1     of soldiers with a patch that said "People from the Krajina" on it,

 2     pardon my pronunciation but something like Krajisnici, engaged in a mass

 3     execution of some 10 to 15 people.  And my question is:  If this Krajina

 4     unit that's being sent to Trnovo had committed mass murder, 15 people,

 5     would the Main Staff have wanted to know about it before sending them off

 6     to another battlefront?

 7        A.   I cannot answer this question, because I did not have such

 8     knowledge then, and I don't have it now.

 9        Q.   Sir, that wasn't my question.  Would you have -- would the

10     operations branch had wanted that -- would you want that kind was

11     information?  Would you want to know that from the Krajina commander,

12     from Vinko Pandurevic, from anybody that had it?

13        A.   I don't know whether -- or, sorry.  I don't understand what you

14     mean when you say "whether we would want to hear it."  When I hear of

15     something that happened, then I -- I inquire to learn more.  But I must

16     have some initial knowledge that something, indeed, did happen.  Then I

17     can inquire to learn more details about whatever happened.

18        Q.   Sir, it's a simple question.  Would the operations unit want to

19     know that a unit that it was assisting and sending to another

20     battlefield, had it been engaged in mass murder?  Is that something that

21     you would want to know, or would you just as soon not know and it's okay?

22     I mean, would you want to know that information?

23        A.   If I know that something happened, then I would be interested.

24     But that unit that is being dispatched passed nowhere close to us.  We

25     had no contact.  They only get instructions as to the direction in which

Page 28390

 1     they are to proceed to carry out their tasks.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I see it's break time.  I have a

 3     few rather significant documents and some intercepts, so I would be

 4     requesting go over my time limit -- or my time estimate.  The witness has

 5     gotten into some areas I didn't expect, such as the briefing that was

 6     given by Milovanovic, and we have perhaps discussed a little more than I

 7     thought we would be discussing.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  We'll resume in 25 minutes'

11     time, thank you.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, General Miletic had been standing,

13     I believe.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I noticed, in fact.  He must have seen me

15     looking at him, but then I saw him sit down, so I imagined he had nothing

16     to say or that he will be speaking to his council now during the break.

17     Okay.  Thank you.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Can you give us an estimate of

21     how much longer you will be cross-examining this witness, please.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I hope an hour.  Three or four documents and a

23     few intercepts.  It really depends on how long, and I will try to keep

24     discussions short.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Try to do that.  Go ahead, please.

Page 28391

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Okay, General, let's go to 65 ter 2157.  I'll give you the

 3     document so you can have it.  It's -- this is a document I -- you may

 4     have had a chance to see this already.  The Defence -- it's also 2794.

 5     Were you able to see this document in preparation of your testimony in

 6     the last couple of days?

 7        A.   Yes, this document has been shown to me.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So you've had a chance to study it.  My question is about

 9     this is:  You are obviously there; it's the 21st of July.  Do you

10     remember these proposals reaching the operations unit that day?

11        A.   Yes.  They arrived to the attention of General Miletic.

12        Q.   And so you do remember them?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Then why would Tolimir be proposing things personally to General

15     Miletic as opposed to Mladic or someone else, like Gvero or Milovanovic?

16        A.   This should be interpreted as a report on the situation in Zepa.

17     In the first three items, the situation in that area is described.  In

18     the fourth paragraph, it says, "We believe..." I don't know who but it's

19     in the plural.  If General Tolimir was with General Mladic, I don't know

20     why he would be addressing General Miletic as the chief of the

21     administration in this way.

22        Q.   Well, if you'll recall, on the same day, the 21st of July, we

23     just saw General Miletic actually issuing orders.  So is it a fair

24     interpretation that General Miletic has more authority that day on the

25     21st than he normally would have, and that is why Tolimir is sending it

Page 28392

 1     personally to General Miletic?  I mean, you were there.  You tell me.

 2        A.   Yes, but it's not logical.  It's not soldierly.  It's outside the

 3     chain of command for an assistant commander who is higher up by one step

 4     to be subordinated to General Miletic, or for General Miletic to have the

 5     role of a superior to General Tolimir.

 6        Q.   Isn't there a very simple explanation that General Mladic put

 7     General Miletic in charge at the Main Staff that day, and so Tolimir is

 8     making proposals to go to the staff so the staff can study them and make

 9     their proposals to the commander?  Isn't that a fair interpretation?

10        A.   That's not the correct interpretation.  I am convinced that

11     General Tolimir would not be happy if the commander were to put General

12     Miletic in a superior position to him, because hierarchy is observed when

13     putting someone in charge and giving him the authority of the commander.

14        Q.   Well, I think I might agree with you on that.  General Tolimir

15     may not like that, but this doesn't need to be viewed like that, does it?

16     This could be a proposal to General Mladic that's going through General

17     Miletic, the man that's in charge.  Not in command, in charge.

18        A.   That's possible, yes.

19        Q.   And can you tell me what an aerosol minor bomb is?

20        A.   An aerosol, I know it exists, but we didn't have those.

21        Q.   What is it?

22        A.   I can't explain.  I'm not an expert on ammunition, but I assume

23     it has some specific sort of action, some sort of pressure over or below

24     --

25        Q.   I've seen a report on the Bihac front where somebody - I'm not

Page 28393

 1     even sure which side - launched some sort of projectile, and it came down

 2     with a parachute and distributed fuel, and a big explosion goes off.  Is

 3     that what an aerosol bomb is?  The US likes using them in Afghanistan.

 4        A.   I don't know.  I can't answer that.

 5        Q.   What did the staff feel about General Tolimir's proposal to bomb

 6     the refugee columns?  Excuse me, to -- destroying the refugee columns in

 7     order to force the Muslims to surrender?  Was that given due

 8     consideration by the staff, that last paragraph?

 9        A.   I see that.  They had no comment.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, I believe you said that General Miletic wasn't

11     involved in the negotiations in Zepa in any way, something like that.  Am

12     I wrong about that?

13        A.   I think that's what the question was, and I said that to the best

14     of my knowledge he did not participate in this.

15        Q.   Well, okay, would he have known about it from his position at

16     the -- at the Main Staff?

17        A.   He might have known about it.

18        Q.   Well, did he know about it?  You were there.  It's a big deal.

19     Negotiations with the Muslims in a very historic place, lives at stake,

20     surely you remember whether or not you were involved in it.  Did you --

21     were you aware of the negotiations?  Were you kept informed by anybody on

22     the ground about it?  Because obviously, if you were, General Miletic

23     would have.

24        A.   Our participation consisted in forwarding information among the

25     persons discussing certain issues.

Page 28394

 1        Q.   So you were involved, the operations branch?

 2        A.   In such a way, yes.

 3        Q.   And unlike the people that are on the ground in the field looking

 4     across the table from the enemy, you're able to take the information they

 5     provide you, study it, analyse it, and make proposals and ask people's

 6     opinions about it, right?  The kind of thing you've described that

 7     you've -- you and the staff do.

 8        A.   We did not discuss those negotiations specifically, because the

 9     negotiations were conducted somewhere on the ground.  If we were ordered

10     to forward something somewhere, then we did.

11        Q.   You don't recall General Tolimir sending you communiques, making

12     suggestions, making comments, looking for your -- looking for the

13     feedback from the Main Staff?

14        A.   It's possible, but I don't know anything specific about that.

15        Q.   Well, let's see if we can refresh your recollection.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter number 191.  This is one of

17     those communiques from General Tolimir, which is, we can see, from the

18     second page in the English.

19        Q.   It's dated 25 July, when you were there.  It's, again, from the

20     Rogatica Brigade command, noted to be very urgent, to the Main Staff

21     personally, to General Gvero or General Miletic.

22             Now, it's entitled: "Agreement on Disarmament of Zepa."  And

23     according to this, the Main Staff has -- in paragraph 1, has received a

24     text of the agreement.  And he suggests you send it around to the corps,

25     the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the state commission of war

Page 28395

 1     prisoners.  It says:  "Our representative for exchange of war prisoners

 2     cannot make arrangements with the Muslims renouncing the text of the

 3     agreement."  And then it makes suggestions: "Our commission should demand

 4     all our war prisoners, including the ones from Gorazde and Bihac."

 5             And then it says:  "Advise state commissions."  I won't go

 6     through all this.  And then in number 2, it tells you what the Muslim

 7     demands are regarding Gobillard, and it says:  "Pass on to UNPROFOR a

 8     request to send an office of colonel rank from Sarajevo sector to

 9     UNPROFOR checkpoint 2."

10             So it's asking you guys to get in and pass on information.  And

11     it's suggesting that Tolimir does not want a General from UNPROFOR,

12     because they don't want a situation like they had in Srebrenica with

13     Morillon.  It also says to call ICRC.

14             Now, Tolimir is not just proposing to General Miletic now or

15     General Gvero.  He's actually telling them to do this, to do that, talk

16     to this person, talk to that person.  Surely, you would have gotten

17     involved in having to do all of those things or some of them, anyway,

18     right?  Do you remember it now?

19        A.   No, Your Honours.  This document is addressed to General Gvero

20     personally or - not "and," but "or" - General Miletic.  When it's

21     encrypted and sent to someone personally, then the person in charge of

22     encryption takes it directly to the person to whom the document is

23     addressed.  That's why I didn't see this document at the time.

24        Q.   Well, you know better than I, but when something comes from

25     Tolimir and it's to one guy or the other, aren't you going to give it to

Page 28396

 1     both if they're both there?  You're going to make some poor comms guy

 2     choose between Gvero and Miletic?

 3        A.   General Tolimir decided to whom the document would be taken when

 4     he addressed it, and the comms guy encrypted it, and he can't just give

 5     it to anyone but only to the person to whom the document is addressed

 6     personally.  He takes it to the addressee personally.  Here it says:

 7     "... either General Gvero or General Miletic."

 8        Q.   Okay, let's start with Gvero.  What in Gvero's position would

 9     normally include responding and doing the sorts of things here that

10     Tolimir is asking?  Any of this have to do with morale, legal, and

11     religious affairs?

12        A.   This refers to a specific task, and it concerns the disarmament

13     of Zepa.  A request is made to contact the state commission for

14     exchanges.

15        Q.   No, I understand, but my question is:  What in General Gvero's

16     position would he be involved in this sort of -- these sort of tasks for?

17     Would this be something that would naturally fit within General Gvero's

18     task as assistant commander for morale, legal, and religious affairs?

19        A.   Well, exchanges are a legal issue.

20        Q.   General Gvero is a lawyer -- was a lawyer?

21        A.   No, but he had subordinate organs for legal affairs.

22        Q.   Okay.  And so this could -- given it involves actually an

23     agreement on the disarmament and naturally involved General Gvero's

24     position as the legal guy, legal chief, correct?

25        A.   In the first item, it says that General Tolimir is proposing that

Page 28397

 1     this agreement be forwarded to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and via that

 2     corps to the state commission for the exchange of prisoners of war.

 3     Would General Gvero have the need to consult his lawyers or not, I don't

 4     know, or would it be sufficient -- would what General Tolimir wrote be

 5     sufficient for him.

 6        Q.   What I'm after is, is there -- is this the kind of thing that

 7     General Gvero would naturally be doing as the chief legal guy, or is

 8     there some suggestion here that General Gvero is the man in charge now

 9     and that's why he would -- it would be addressed to him?  If you know.

10     You were there is why I -- why I ask you that question.  If you know.

11        A.   Unfortunately, I can't say that because I don't know.

12        Q.   Okay.  General Miletic, what in his position as standing in for

13     Milovanovic on many issues or head of the operations and training branch,

14     do either of those two things suggest that he should be involved in

15     responding to these tasks based on his position?

16        A.   The role of the persons to whom this is addressed is to pass it

17     on and to act on what General Tolimir asks them to do.  It's not for them

18     to make decisions because the agreement has already been made on the

19     ground, so General Gvero and General Miletic don't decide on anything

20     concerning this document.

21        Q.   Yes, I wasn't talking about decisions.  I was talking about

22     taskings that this is mentioned.  I mean, would these taskings be normal

23     for what Miletic was doing at that point, being chief of operations and

24     training and standing in for Milovanovic?  Would he be involved in

25     responding to this, is my question.

Page 28398

 1        A.   He would have to act on this document if it reached him, or he

 2     would take it to the commander or ask for the approval of the person who

 3     is replacing the commander, deputising for him, and he would inform him,

 4     and then he would do what the document asks him to do.

 5        Q.   Perhaps you remember the -- do you remember seeing this?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Do you remember making any effort to keep an UNPROFOR general

 8     from going to the Zepa area as Tolimir strongly suggests in this?  Surely

 9     you remember General Smith and his involvement in Zepa.

10        A.   General Smith was the UNPROFOR commander, if I remember

11     correctly, for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12        Q.   But you have no recollection of any involvement you may have been

13     in or the operations had been in to try to keep guys like General Smith

14     from showing up in Zepa?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So neither Tolimir nor Mladic came back to you after this and

17     said, I'd ask you to keep UNPROFOR generals out of this.  I hold you

18     responsible for General Smith showing up.  He didn't say that to Gvero or

19     Miletic?

20        A.   You read just a while ago what it says here, that the situation

21     with General Morillon should not be repeated here.  I can't find the

22     paragraph where it says that.

23        Q.   It's --

24        A.   It says, "Pass on to UNPROFOR a request to send an officer of

25     Colonel rank from Sarajevo Sector to UNPROFOR checkpoint 2 at Boksanica

Page 28399

 1     to monitor the execution of the agreement."

 2        Q.   No.  The part I was referring to is the third paragraph under

 3     point 2:  "Make a note to them that we don't want them to send a General

 4     considering that we have information that they want to take advantage of

 5     his presence according to similar scenario when they took advantage of

 6     the presence of General Morillon in Srebrenica in 1993."

 7             And all I was asking, General, is General Smith showed up and

 8     kind of mucked up the works a bit, and I imagine Tolimir and Mladic might

 9     not have liked that, especially when they told you guys to try to keep

10     that from happening.  Does that refresh your recollection?  If it

11     doesn't, no problem.  We'll go on.

12        A.   I don't see where it says "to prevent."

13        Q.   You see the section that mentions Morillon, right?

14        A.   Yes, but it says here:  "Pass on to UNPROFOR a request to send an

15     officer of a rank equivalent to Colonel from the Sarajevo sector."  And

16     then in the next paragraph, it says: "Make a note to them ..."  that is,

17     to UNPROFOR, "... that we don't want them to sent a general considering

18     that we have information that they want to take advantage of his presence

19     according to a similar scenario that was put in place when they took

20     advantage of the presence of General Morillon in Srebrenica."

21             So it doesn't say here "to prevent," but that we should ask that

22     this not be a general but, rather, someone with the rank of colonel.

23        Q.   I agree.  Did you do that, or do you know of anybody at the Main

24     Staff that did?

25        A.   I didn't draw up the request to UNPROFOR.  It was Colonel Milos

Page 28400

 1     Djurdjic who was in charge of contacts with UNPROFOR.

 2        Q.   Well, this -- so then General Miletic would have been working

 3     with Djurdjic on this point?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's go on just -- you talked a bit about convoys.

 6     I'm not going to spend too long with it, but I do want to go over a

 7     document or to two.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to one you talked about, 5D846.

 9        Q.   And you've got a copy, and you can see that we've -- those are

10     photocopies that you have, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we see this.

11     It's dated 25 November 1994.  It's -- this one is to the Drina Corps

12     command from General Mladic.  And it's talking about the blockade of four

13     convoys that he had approved.

14             And you went through this for us and talked about it.  The one

15     thing I wanted to ask you about is -- it's number 2 of the order, and it

16     talks about:  "Organise the necessary preparations for the personnel

17     participating in this task in order to enable them to cope with possible

18     unforeseen steps which may be taken by convoy members."

19             Now, are you at the Main Staff on 25 November 1994?  I don't

20     remember.

21        A.   I'm not sure.  I received the order from General Miletic in the

22     second half of November to go to the outward command post to General

23     Milovanovic.

24        Q.   Well, so you -- do you remember this order at all, this thing

25     about this blockade?  It's kind --

Page 28401

 1        A.   This is 1994.

 2        Q.   Right.  Do you remember this at all?  It comes out of your

 3     office.

 4        A.   No.  03/4, yes, but I don't remember because I wasn't there on

 5     the 25th.

 6        Q.   Okay.  What I -- I am curious about is this next line.  It says:

 7     "The blockade" -- in paragraph 2 of the ordered:  "The blockade of the

 8     convoy must seem as if a subsequent inspection is being carried out

 9     because of the convoy's suspicious cargo.  Under no circumstances will

10     you indicate that it is a blockade or how long it's going to last.  The

11     primary task of our staff is a detailed inspection."

12             Now when he said "it must appear" or "it must seem that this is

13     happening because of suspicious cargo," nowhere does he say that, This

14     thing should be blockaded because of information that you have for

15     suspicious cargo; it's, Isn't this a blockade in order just to search

16     this thing and keep it stalled for some reason.

17        A.   I think that here, a detailed inspection requires a longer time

18     for the convoy to stay at these sites.  Sometimes the searches would be

19     shorter when there would be no indication of anything suspicious.  But if

20     there was intelligence that would require a more detailed inspection, it

21     would -- it would have to stay longer at the inspection point for

22     inspection.  And it says here, display a highly professional and correct

23     attitude and an attitude of determination.

24        Q.   I see that.  And I won't stay with this long, sir.  It's just

25     this -- isn't Mladic asking the Drina Corps to communicate to the

Page 28402

 1     UNPROFOR convoy that they are concerned that this has suspicious cargo

 2     and that that's the reason for the blockade, even though they don't have

 3     any reason to think that it's suspicious.  Because if he did, I'm sure he

 4     would have said it in this order.  Isn't that what's going on here?

 5        A.   I believe that is speculation because the one who issued the

 6     order certainly has some informations, and there have been -- there have

 7     been goods in some previous convoys, such as ammunition, armaments, and

 8     fuel, that clearly exceed the need of an UNPROFOR unit.

 9        Q.   All right.  Well, I don't think we -- we need to discuss that

10     anymore.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, let's go to 5D884.

12        Q.   And I note my version of it has my highlighting and some of my

13     initials on it based on what you did on the screen.  It may be easier

14     just to give you my initials or try to get up on the screen what he had

15     done himself, you know, when you were circling initials and things.

16     Maybe that's the best.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we can get 5D -- and Ms. Stewart will tell me

18     what that is.  It got turned into 5DIC00235.

19        Q.   And just to help refresh your recollection, hopefully you have

20     that with you.  I don't know which one it is in your binder.  I'm sorry.

21     Maybe Mr. Petrusic could help.  But -- there it is.  This is one of these

22     requests that was sent by General Nicolai from UNPROFOR, and it was

23     sent -- it was translated by somebody.  And you explained that these

24     requests came in through a fax and -- and went to Mladic.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 28403

 1        Q.   And you pointed out to us where General Mladic, his initials

 2     were.  I think that's the -- kind of in that circle with the red 2,

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And then you also pointed out -- I think we need to bring the

 6     document -- if we can kick the English off a bit and bring the B/C/S

 7     document over, because I think you've showed us that there were some

 8     other -- do you see Tolimir's initial on there anywhere?

 9        A.   Yes.  In the right-hand red circle marked with the figure 1.  It

10     isn't very clear.

11        Q.   Right.  And then at the bottom that handwritten part, it refers

12     to -- you think Colonel Djurdjic wrote that as instructions to Captain

13     Novakovic, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you think Novakovic wrote that stuff up at the top about

16     Caura, Domar, Bresa?

17        A.   Yes.  It says informed equals -- or arrow, Caura, Domar, Bresa,

18     and the respective times, 11.35, 11.38, 11.40.

19        Q.   And we can see, which didn't make the English translation, but we

20     can see that this thing is dated July 1 1995.  That's up in the

21     right-hand corner.  Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do those initials up in the right-hand corner make any sense to

24     you, the ones on top of the date and the ones below it?

25        A.   I think that the -- one of the initials belongs to the man -- to

Page 28404

 1     the person who had written "informed Caura, Domar, Bresa."

 2        Q.   Who would that have been?

 3        A.   I think it was the captain who is mentioned below.

 4        Q.   Novakovic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So you think the initials on top of the date are

 7     Novakovic.  How about underneath the date?

 8        A.   Yes.  This is A/A.

 9        Q.   What's that mean?

10        A.   It means "ad acta."

11        Q.   What's the significance of that?

12        A.   It means to be archived.

13        Q.   Okay.  All right.  And I think you suggested that General Miletic

14     wasn't involved in this; is that right?

15        A.   I don't see how this document doesn't indicate his involvement in

16     any way.

17        Q.   Well, I understand that, but I think you made a kind of a bigger

18     statement when you testified.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you

19     said he wasn't involved in this process.  So tell us now, what -- was

20     General Miletic involved in this in any way, in this convoy process where

21     requests were considered and then decided on and -- and then -- and then

22     communicated to the various parties involved?

23        A.   Mostly, this business is the business of the department of

24     civilian affairs, but based on such decisions of the commander bearing

25     his initials, and sometimes it happened - I don't know why - that

Page 28405

 1     sometimes for the sake of speed, we would draft notes that would bear the

 2     commander's initials to be passed on to all the units.

 3        Q.   When you say "we," you mean the operations branch?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And whose initials would you prepare?

 6        A.   I mean the commander's initials.

 7        Q.   Who's that?

 8        A.   The chief of the Main Staff, Ratko Mladic.

 9        Q.   So when you say "we," you mean your branch including General

10     Miletic as the head?

11        A.   He isn't the head of the department.  He's the head of the

12     administration.

13        Q.   Right.  So as head of the administration, General Miletic is

14     involved in this process?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, this particular -- we see, General -- what's the

17     chief of assistant commander for intel and security -- what's his

18     interest, or why is he involved in looking this over?

19        A.   In this specific case, I don't know.  Obviously, these initials

20     preceding the A/A were followed by the initials of General Tolimir.  It

21     was subsequently deleted, and then it was written down, and I don't know

22     how exactly that happened.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.  We didn't --

24     we couldn't follow.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Obradovic, the interpreters had a

Page 28406

 1     problem with following you.  I suggest you repeat your answer entirely.

 2     The question was as follows: "Okay, now, this particular -- we see,

 3     General -- what's the chief of assistant commander for intelligence and

 4     security -- what's his interest, or why is he involved in looking this

 5     over?"

 6             And you had started by saying: "In this specific case, I don't

 7     know.  Obviously, these initials preceding the A/A were followed by the

 8     initials of General Tolimir ..."

 9             Can you continue from there, please?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, General Tolimir as a

11     chief of section for security and intel, must be acquainted in a way

12     about UNPROFOR requests for the passage of certain convoys from the point

13     of view of security and intelligence assessments.  That is his interest.

14     And the -- about the other part, I said specifically about the document

15     being shown on the screen.  There is the initials of General Tolimir, and

16     the indication A/A, above those initials on the left.  And it seems to me

17     that this indication is crossed out.

18             And to the left of that, there is the commander's instruction or

19     order that -- sorry, not order, "yes."  And below that, his initials.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is it clear enough or ...

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Almost.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  If you want to proceed with

23     further questions, I think it will help you and us to understand better.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:

25        Q.   The part that's crossed out, what does that say?  The part in the

Page 28407

 1     middle between the two red circles?

 2        A.   I suppose, I cannot be sure, that General Tolimir put this A/A

 3     here and added his initials, and that possibly, subsequently, or probably

 4     this document reached the commander - I don't know why - and that he gave

 5     his approval by the word "da," "yes," and then added his initials.

 6        Q.   But crossing out the indication that it should go to archives,

 7     what significance is that, if any?  Is that any -- AA is what you said,

 8     send to archives.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Does that have significance that either Mladic or Tolimir would

11     have crossed that out?

12        A.   No.  That has no significance.  It's up to the commander to

13     decide.  General Tolimir could have -- may have had his opinion about

14     this, but the commander's opinion was different.

15        Q.   Okay.  And just in looking at -- I mean, very simply in looking

16     at this, this is a request to have a medical evacuation of three

17     Ukrainian soldiers:  a lieutenant, a non-commissioned officer, and a

18     private.  So is this a security branch issue when looking at whether this

19     is a legitimate medical evacuation or whether it's some kind of other

20     nefarious thing?

21        A.   I don't think it was nefarious.

22        Q.   I --

23        A.   Security checks and intelligence checks were routinely done.

24        Q.   So Tolimir routinely looked at these things.

25        A.   Well, I can't claim that.  The -- whatever I am saying is my

Page 28408

 1     assessment, but I'm identifying whatever is on the document.

 2        Q.   Sir, what you're saying is rather serious, and you've just said

 3     that security checks were rather routine.  So you were in that office

 4     every day.  I take it you saw these sorts of requests.

 5        A.   Occasionally, in my encounters with Djurdjic I saw them.  There

 6     was nothing unusual about that.

 7        Q.   And in these routine security involvement, would the corps

 8     security be involved in dealing with convoys for the same reason that

 9     Tolimir was interested?

10        A.   Probably.  In the chain of security and intelligence organs, the

11     information would flow from the Main Staff to the lower-ranked elements,

12     depending on the zone of responsibility in question.

13        Q.   Okay.  So if it was the Drina Corps zone of responsibility, and

14     there was a security interest by Tolimir in a convoy, you would expect

15     that Popovic would also have -- reflect Tolimir's interest and be

16     interested in that convoy as well?  And we don't need to say Popovic.  We

17     can say the Drina Corps security.

18        A.   That's normal communication along expert lines between the Main

19     Staff and subordinate units.

20        Q.   Okay.  And if this convoy gets down to actually a checkpoint,

21     let's say, in Zvornik, in the Zvornik Brigade zone, then it becomes --

22     then under normal communication along the professional lines, it becomes

23     the responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade security branch, right?

24        A.   Yes, in the security sense.  But the command decided about the

25     personnel to conduct the checks at the checkpoints.

Page 28409

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, I want to go to -- and I want to just,

 3     before we leave this document, remind you of the three soldiers from the

 4     Ukrainian:  Zagichka, Varukha, and Gaspinich.  Pardon me for any

 5     Ukrainians that I probably offended.  Let's keep those names in mind, and

 6     now I want to go to 65 ter 2554.

 7        Q.   And I will -- as we're getting to that, I will remind you - let

 8     me give you a hard copy of the B/C/S - that we were looking at some

 9     documents yesterday regarding convoys that were signed for General

10     Miletic.  What was the name of that fellow that signed for General

11     Miletic?  I can't remember his name.

12        A.   At two places, what the Defence attorney asked me, Radoslav

13     Pandzic from the administration for the airforce and anti-aircraft

14     defence.

15        Q.   Okay.  And so that were -- again, I won't get them out, but those

16     were convoy-related documents that were being sent off.  Do you remember

17     where they were being sent off to?  Those other documents, not this one.

18     I'm sorry.  I've forgot.

19        A.   They were like the one before that we had on the screen, before

20     this one.  They were faxed requests that came from UNPROFOR, and they

21     were received on the fax of the department of civilian affairs.  They

22     were studied by Colonel Djurdjic, Milos Djurdjic, and then he would

23     submit a proposal to the commander, or not, to learn the position of the

24     commander regarding individual requests.  Once a commander had perused

25     that, then he would draw up an individual document and send it out to the

Page 28410

 1     units that would come in touch with the convoy on its route.

 2        Q.   And so this -- the document that we're talking about, it was sent

 3     out to the units that would come in contact with the convoy.  That was

 4     under the name of General Miletic but signed for him by this guy,

 5     Pandzic.

 6        A.   Well, probably.  At the moment he signed it below the block

 7     signature of General Miletic, then General Miletic must have been absent.

 8     It wasn't his regular duty.

 9        Q.   So if General Miletic wouldn't have been absent, he would have

10     been involved in this -- these particular convoy requests signed off by

11     Pandzic?

12        A.   You misunderstood me.  This was written by Milos Djurdjic, and

13     only signed, because certain documents, notes, information would be

14     signed by General Miletic as the head of the administration.  And as

15     General Miletic probably was absent at the time, there are two signatures

16     by this man, Pandzic, who signed it due to Miletic's absence, and Colonel

17     Krsto Djuric, who was probably deployed to the ground to some unit, so

18     there was no officer in charge of ops and training present at the moment.

19        Q.   All right.  I -- I'm sorry.  I shouldn't have asked you about

20     that document without it being on the screen so we could follow it, but

21     let's go on to this particular document that you now have, 65 ter 2554,

22     because it bears the date 1 July 1995, like the previous document we saw

23     from Nicolai requesting medical evac for three Ukrainians.  And if we see

24     in paragraph 2 of this document, we see the three Ukrainians.  So in this

25     document, it's from the Main Staff, as we see from the first page, and

Page 28411

 1     it's to the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the Drina Corps.

 2     And if we go to the end, it's got the block, standing in the for the

 3     Chief of Staff, Major-General Miletic.

 4             So now we have Miletic involved in this request to the Main Staff

 5     by UNPROFOR, and we see several numbers where various things are

 6     mentioned, including our number 2, which is clearly the -- that request

 7     that we see before.

 8             So, I want to ask you about things.  Do you see this stamp up in

 9     the -- hopefully you've got the one with the stamp in the upper right

10     corner that says "Command of the Zvornik 1st Light Infantry Brigade"?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  And that -- my belief is that means that this was a

13     document that, despite being addressed to the Drina Corps, was sent on to

14     the Zvornik Brigade.  And I'd like to take you to number 6.  It's page 2

15     in the B/C/S, and I think it's page -- page 1 of the document that you

16     have.  Yes, the B/C/S.  Page 2 of the English.

17             And it says: "From Srebrenica to Zagreb, along the same route as

18     the previous item, out on 2 July ..." and I'll skip a bit.  It talks

19     about personal equipment and luggage of the personnel that are being

20     rotated, composition of the convoy in both directions, and it lists a

21     Jeep, lorries, 20 people in both directions, cargo in both directions,

22     personal equipment and weapons, rations for their own use, equipment for

23     the vehicles, mail bags, first aid kits, administrative equipment boxes.

24             And then there's a note that is said by General Miletic, and

25     before I get to that note -- I'm sorry, but just -- if we go to the front

Page 28412

 1     of this thing, it's number -- it's not 03/4 anymore.  It's now 06/18.

 2     What is that significance?

 3        A.   It was registered outside the administration for ops and

 4     training, either in the department for civil affairs or, perhaps, in the

 5     administration for the airforce, because it's signed by Colonel Pandzic.

 6        Q.   How do you know it's signed by Colonel Pandzic?

 7        A.   Well, the lawyer --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- showed it to me.  The counsel

10     showed it to me during the examination-in-chief.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Yes.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] If I may assist, I don't think the

13     witness is looking at the right document, because this document is dated

14     the 1st of July, 1995, but I did not show him this document.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought it referred to this one,

16     because previously there was that fax you asked me about, where I circled

17     that.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   What you were shown was the request by UNPROFOR that got faxed

20     and circled by Mladic and Tolimir.  Now what I'm showing you is the

21     communication sent out by Miletic that included the information in that

22     fax.  There is no indication -- the only indication of the author of this

23     document is at the end of the document, and it's Radoje -- Radivoje

24     Miletic, correct?  This is a document, sir, you have not seen.  And I

25     know it's late, and we'll be done soon.

Page 28413

 1        A.   Allow me, Your Honours, to explain.  I have no bad intentions

 2     here, but when the counsel showed me a set of these faxes when putting

 3     his questions, there was a document, which had the same form as this,

 4     more or less, and there was a signature there, which I identified.  I

 5     thought this was the same document.

 6        Q.   Completely understandable.  There has been a lot of documents.

 7     This is a new one.  So take a look at it, especially at the end of it.  I

 8     don't think he showed you this one.  This one's related to the ones that

 9     he showed you, but it's not one that he showed you apparently.  It's just

10     Miletic's name on this one.  Those other ones were from --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- a long time ago.  Okay.  So let's see what Miletic has to say

13     in this note --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment before you proceed.  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we ask the witness to please

16     take off his headphones.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you remove your headphones, please,

18     Mr. Obradovic.

19             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think that this is going too far,

20     Your Honours, and misleading the witness.  We can't mix various things

21     that aren't similar.  This document, we only see the block, the

22     signature.  It's just a copy.  The document that we submitted were those

23     that we came by.  They were the originals.  So I don't think that the

24     Prosecutor can draw a parallel between these documents as he has just

25     done.  We don't know who actually signed this document.

Page 28414

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you, Madam.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is an interesting argument.  However, this

 3     document is directly related to that other document, because as we can

 4     see the three uniquely named and numbered Ukrainian soldiers are on this

 5     document.  And what we have here is -- is very simple.  We have the UN

 6     request saying, Please let these three Ukrainian soldiers go out.  Mladic

 7     looks at it, Tolimir looks at it or vice versa, and then what happens

 8     with it is communications get sent back to UNPROFOR saying yay or nay,

 9     and communications, as the witness said, get sent back to the corps that

10     it's going through.

11             What counsel did not show you in direct examination is what I am

12     showing you now, is the communique from the Main Staff under Miletic's

13     name to the Drina Corps saying that these have been approved or

14     disapproved.  And what we're seeing now is a little note about a

15     Srebrenica convoy that Miletic is writing to the Drina Corps to make sure

16     they get his instructions right.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There's no confusion here.  You know, she can

19     argue that this is not a valid document because of whatever.  I don't

20     know if we have the original or not.  I think we do because this

21     particular document, as I said earlier, I believe came from the Zvornik

22     Brigade collection.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Ms. Fauveau.

24             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would simply like to

25     make things as clear as possible, and we can then expedite matters.  We

Page 28415

 1     have not challenged that documents addressed to the units came from the

 2     staff with this block signature of General Miletic.  What we are

 3     challenging is how the Prosecution is proceeding now and whether or not

 4     these documents actually bear his name or not.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would like to respond to that, if I could,

 8     Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes, Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The Defence specifically -- they had this

11     document.  This is not something we're holding back, the one I'm using

12     now.  They, I must believe, specifically chose not to show the witness

13     this document, the -- if you will, the final piece of the puzzle.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Because we are -- it's going to

15     be ping-pong and -- stop.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I cannot just

17     stop here.  I am really sorry, but this is an insinuation that is really

18     not relevant.  We submitted to the witness documents that are very

19     similar to this one.  Why would we not have shown him this one?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So our unanimous decision is that we

23     see nothing irregular in the way the Prosecution is proceeding, so we are

24     allowing the question and the use of the document.  We also want to just

25     encourage you to avoid resorting to what we had told you is certainly not

Page 28416

 1     our preference.  If there is one counsel who is dealing with a witness,

 2     please try to avoid having the second one, et cetera.

 3             We allowed it recently in one or two occasions, but if possible,

 4     please try to avoid it as much a possible.  I do understand that

 5     sometimes there is an urgent need to intervene, and one does pop up and

 6     interject.  However, try to limit it as much as you can, please.  All

 7     right.

 8             Let's continue.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And for everyone's

10     knowledge, this document that I have right now, 65 ter 2554, is in

11     evidence.  It came in through Mr. Butler.

12        Q.   And I want to read this note, page 3 in English, page 2 in the

13     B/C/S.  It says: "The movement of the convoys under items 5 and 6 above,

14     which has been approved conditionally, should be specially controlled by

15     teams at checkpoints and liaison officers of the Drina Corps command

16     before they enter the territory of Republika Srpska on their return from

17     Zagreb.  Check the cargo in the six lorries.  It has been agreed that the

18     six lorries will transport humanitarian aid for Zvornik, and the same

19     number of lorries should bring humanitarian aid to Sarajevo, Sarajevo

20     Muslims.

21             "If the lorries come to Zvornik without the said cargo, do not

22     let them go to Sarajevo or Srebrenica."

23             And it continues: "In other words, when the convoy arrives in

24     Zvornik, check it, establish what it is carrying, and inform the

25     commander, after which instructions regarding continuation of their

Page 28417

 1     journey will be given.  Inform about this only the men who deal with such

 2     issues and use the details for internal purposes only.  Do not reveal

 3     them to third persons."

 4             Now, this very clear note that goes out under the name of General

 5     Miletic -- so isn't it the duty of the person sending out this communique

 6     to the Drina Corps and the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to clearly explain the

 7     orders of the commander so that the guys in the corps and on the ground

 8     at the checkpoint understand precisely what is excepted of them by the

 9     commander?  Isn't that right?

10        A.   First of all, this information leading to the drawing up of the

11     standpoint had to arrive either from the commander or from the organs who

12     had at their disposal more information concerning the movements of

13     UNPROFOR.  I think that here Miletic wrote what somebody demanded that he

14     write and that he sent this information to the Sarajevo Romanija and the

15     Drina Corps.

16        Q.   I agree with you, and that is what my question was about.  Isn't

17     it General Miletic's duty, when he gets this order, to be able to put it

18     in a language that the guys that receive it down the line can clearly

19     understand?

20        A.   Yes.  And the main points were given to him either by the

21     commander or someone who had this information.  Most probably, it was the

22     commander because this contains orders as well.  In fact, it draws

23     attention to procedures that were already in place pursuant to previous

24     orders.

25        Q.   So we can tell from this detailed instruction that General

Page 28418

 1     Miletic knows what he's talking about.  He knows about this process, and

 2     he knows how to communicate to these guys, correct?

 3        A.   Yes, following his orders.

 4        Q.   And can we -- is it also correct that it's General Miletic's job

 5     to advise General Mladic on these sorts of issues, to help him understand

 6     the bigger and more detailed picture and to provide proposals for General

 7     Mladic so that when General Mladic issues an order like this, he does it

 8     so knowingly?

 9        A.   Specifically in this case, this is information probably coming

10     from intelligence security organs rather than operations organs.  Based

11     on the information given to the commander, the commander gave

12     instructions to Miletic as to how he should draw this up and how he

13     should draw attention to the procedure at certain points.

14        Q.   I will go back to my question.  Generally, for General Miletic to

15     know about these issues and for General Mladic to know about these

16     issues, General Miletic would be providing proposals and information so

17     that General Mladic can make the best decision possible, correct,

18     regarding convoys?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Petrusic.

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The witness has answered this

21     question.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

23     Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't believe he has, and I -- in

25     cross-examination, even if he had, I think there's -- it's not a proper

Page 28419

 1     objection, but he hasn't.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move, anyway, because we are wasting more

 3     time like this.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   Sir, isn't that true that in issues that we see General

 6     Miletic -- we've seen many, many of these sorts of convoy documents going

 7     down to the corps under Miletic's name.  Isn't it important for Miletic

 8     to provide the commander with information about these convoys and make

 9     proposals regarding the convoys so that the commander can make the best

10     decision possible?

11        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, the organisation of the command of the Main Staff

12     is such that all lower-level organs serve the command, and each one

13     submits to the commander the relevant information that can help him make

14     decisions.  But this information is not information from the relevant

15     administration.

16        Q.   This information about convoys would be coming from General

17     Miletic and his experience with convoy documents.  There is many, many of

18     them that he's been involved in.  So isn't it true that General Miletic

19     advised the commander about issues related to convoys?

20        A.   No, you're wrong.  Miletic figures here only as the signatory of

21     a document, because the person dealing with these activities does not

22     have the right to sign this type of information.  And this is based on

23     instructions or orders coming from the commander which could be issued

24     orally or conveyed through Djurdjic to compile this and draw up a

25     document containing the decisions made by the commander concerning each

Page 28420

 1     one of these convoys.

 2        Q.   I'll try one more time.  I'm not talking specifically about this

 3     document.  You've already told us that Tolimir got involved in this, and

 4     perhaps the order came right from Tolimir or the proposal to Mladic came

 5     right from Tolimir and than got fed down to Miletic, and it was just

 6     Miletic's job to communicate it in the best way possible.

 7             I'm talking about generally.  We see General Miletic drafting

 8     material and sending it off to the Drina Corps over and over again with

 9     these sorts of detailed explanations about what to check, what not to

10     check.  And my question is, General, given that Miletic is sending all

11     this communication and this detailed information about convoys, can't we

12     conclude that he is in a position to advise the command about convoys?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you answer that question.

14     Mr. Petrusic.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My objection is the same as

16     before.  The witness has answered this several times regarding procedure,

17     the procedure for the approval and passage of convoys, both in general

18     and in specific instances.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, in a way you are right, but again, we are in

20     cross-examination so -- yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   So I'll try to make it simpler.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you insist on this question or not?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can go after it in one more way.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

Page 28421

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Are you insisting, General, that despite we see many, many

 3     documents going out under General Miletic's name to Drina Corps and to

 4     UNPROFOR, for that matter, that despite his clear involvement in

 5     communicating to the corps that are involved with these convoys, and

 6     despite his knowledge in this area, he plays no role whatsoever in

 7     advising the command on convoy issues; is that what you're saying?  Yes

 8     or no, and you can explain.

 9        A.   I can't answer in this way.  General Miletic doesn't have to be

10     with a commander when a decision is taken.  Certain faxes and requests

11     are involved, and it's Colonel Djurdjic who is with the commander in that

12     case, who the commander will consult, whether this one or that one, but

13     the commander will give detailed instructions about every convoy, and

14     Colonel Djurdjic will draw up the document and bring it to General

15     Miletic for his signature.  He doesn't want to tire the commander with

16     this or bother him with this because the commander has already made the

17     decision.  I think I've been clear.

18        Q.   Okay.  I think we understand.  One more convoy document.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to 65 ter 3924.  And -- and we

20     don't have an English translation of this, so, you know, I will try to be

21     brief.

22        Q.   What we have here, General, is a 31 March 1995, and we have a --

23     a document under the name of Milovanovic, and it's to the command of

24     UNPROFOR in Sarajevo.  And my understanding is that it's just a list of a

25     bunch of convoy requests and whether they're approved or not.  Is that

Page 28422

 1     correct?  Just roughly?

 2        A.   Yes.  There are 14 ordinal numbers here with the numbers of the

 3     convoys and their routes, and there is a request being sent to the Main

 4     Staff for its approval.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we blow up this stamp quite a bit?  Just if

 7     we could get the stamp centred.

 8        Q.   And General, I am going to hand you -- I'm going to hand you this

 9     original of the document that we have so you can look at it, because it's

10     the original stamp.  And I want to first of all ask you, do you see a

11     "za" written down there?  It unfortunately to be like its underneath

12     the -- what's written down is -- I think it's "Vojske," that word on the

13     left.  Do you see the "za" in there when you look at the original?

14        A.   In handwriting, you mean?  Handwritten?

15        Q.   I'm not asking you to look at the handwritten part yet.  I'm

16     asking you, can you find the "za"?  I mean, I -- it's -- there can be

17     writing that can be seen both in the blow-up and in the [overlapping

18     speakers] --

19        A.   Between the letter V and J, where it says "Vojske," the Main

20     Staff of the army, Voskje, there is something there, and it might be "za"

21     between the letter "O" and the "J" in the word "Vojske" or "army."

22        Q.   I'm sorry, you're right, Vojske.  Can you make out the original?

23     Can you see that same thing in the original?  Do you see the -- what

24     looks like a "z"?

25        A.   I don't know what you're referring to.

Page 28423

 1        Q.   Same place in the original, on Vojske.  It's always best to look

 2     at the original.  If you can't make it out, don't worry about it.

 3        A.   I didn't understand you.

 4        Q.   You see -- the same thing you saw on the screen, do you see it in

 5     the original, that little squiggle?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Does it look like a "za" to you on the original?

 8        A.   One can discern it, yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And that signature, that's not Milovanovic's signature, is

10     it?

11        A.   No, it isn't.

12        Q.   Whose is it?

13        A.   General Miletic's.  And he was authorised by the Chief of Staff

14     to sign these informative documents.  We inform you that we have not

15     approved, but it's the commander who did not prove, not the signatory of

16     the document.

17        Q.   Right.  We got that.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if I can just -- another question or two on

19     this topic, then I think we'll be done with convoys with just a little

20     bit more to go, Your Honour, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  It's time for the break.  I think --

22     how much more?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Maybe 20 minutes on a few intercepts.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then we'll have the break.  No, I ask

25     you because if you were talking of five minutes, then we would have

Page 28424

 1     continued for five minutes and then had the break afterwards.  But we'll

 2     have the break now, 25 minutes, and please try to conclude.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we go to 65 ter

 7     2554.  I apologise.  We had this on the -- we've talked about this

 8     briefly, but I -- in my haste I forgot an important part.

 9        Q.   So if I could ask you to look at the screen on this one.  This is

10     the document that was sent in Miletic's name to -- and that was received

11     by the Zvornik Brigade that we see it went to the corps, and then the

12     corps must have sent it on to the Zvornik Brigade.  And if we see the

13     B/C/S version, it says, "security organ" handwritten on it.

14             So, General, if that was handwritten by a person that received

15     this from the Zvornik Brigade command, what does that mean?  Well, I can

16     simplify it.  It means that the security organ ought to see this

17     document, right?

18        A.   Yes, but I don't know whether that was written at the command of

19     the Drina Corps or down at the brigade level, but obviously somebody

20     wrote on this that it should go to the security organ.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, since, you know, handwritten stuff wouldn't come

22     through on a teletype, I believe this is the Zvornik Brigade, but we'll

23     check on that.  That's a good point.  And then just going, again, briefly

24     to page 3 in the English, page 2 of the B/C/S.  When General Miletic is

25     explaining in this middle paragraph under "note," and it's in part six,

Page 28425

 1     the end of part six:  "In other words, when the convoy arrives in

 2     Zvornik, check it, establish what it's carrying, and inform the

 3     commander..."  That would be the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, right?

 4        A.   If in the letterhead of the document it says Main Staff, then the

 5     chief of Main Staff should be informed.

 6        Q.   You don't think based on the context of this that they would --

 7     that this has to do with the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

 8        A.   No.  If the document was sent from the Main Staff, then the chief

 9     of Main Staff is met.

10        Q.   Well, it was -- let's assume it was sent by the Drina Corps to

11     the Zvornik Brigade.

12        A.   Along the lines of information --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.  This was too

14     fast.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   Sorry, you went a little too fast for the interpreters.  You need

17     to answer it again, slowly.

18        A.   If, as you said, the command -- this came from the Zvornik

19     Brigade, then the commander of the Zvornik Brigade will inform the

20     commander of the Drina Corps of this, and the commander of the Drina

21     Corps will inform the chief of Main Staff.

22        Q.   Understood.  And can you give us your opinion when it -- the next

23     line down it says: "Inform about this only the men who deal with such

24     issues."  Who does that mean?

25        A.   The persons are meant who are involved in the cooperation with

Page 28426

 1     UNPROFOR and with the passage of convoys.

 2        Q.   Would that include, in your view, the security officer of the

 3     brigade?

 4        A.   Well, according to this, no, but if we read the note on the

 5     document of the Drina Corps or the Zvornik Brigade, we could infer that.

 6     But we cannot make that conclusion based on this note you referred to.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   But we can suppose.

 9        Q.   Well, let's -- let's not suppose.  We'll be through soon,

10     especially if we don't suppose too much.  Okay.  Let's go back to 65 ter

11     3924, and I'll give you that original.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

13             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think there is a

14     problem with translation.  I think there is a mistake in the transcript.

15     I am not sure if it's the transcript or interpretation, but at page 66,

16     line 3, I don't think that the witness spoke about the head of the staff.

17     I think he spoke about the commander.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll -- we'll put it -- thank you,

19     Madam Fauveau.  We'll put it to the witness.

20             You were asked a question by Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Obradovic.  The

21     question was: "Let's assume it was sent by the Drina Corps to the Zvornik

22     Brigade."

23             And you said:  "If, as you said, the command -- this came from

24     the Zvornik Brigade, then the commander of the Zvornik Brigade will

25     inform the commander of the Drina Corps of this, and the commander of the

Page 28427

 1     Drina Corps will inform ..." who?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander of the Main Staff.

 3     Your Honours, it's the commander of the Main Staff.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's the way I understood it, as well, so ...

 6             JUDGE KWON:  How about line 12?

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Line 12 of page 66?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  65.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  65.  Yes.  And again, you were asked -- it was

10     pointed out to you, and when General Miletic is explaining in this middle

11     paragraph under "note," and it's in part 6 -- the end of part 6:  "In

12     other words, when the convoy arrives in Zvornik, check it, establish what

13     it's carrying, and inform the commander..."  That would be the commander

14     of the Zvornik Brigade, right?  And your answer, according to the

15     transcript, says as follows:  "If in the letterhead of the document it

16     says 'Main Staff,' then the chief of Main Staff should be informed."

17             Is that what you said?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  If the Main

19     Staff of the army of Republika Srpska is mentioned in the letterhead,

20     then this refers to the commander of the Main Staff.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's proceed.  Thank you, Judge Kwon.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  That was an important thing to make

23     clear.

24        Q.   Okay.  General, you -- if you could take what we have here as --

25     like we've before -- is this is the letter, looks like, from the Main

Page 28428

 1     Staff to UNPROFOR with Miletic signing for Milovanovic, just approving or

 2     disproving many convoys, and you have the original as we found it stapled

 3     together with several requests from General Nicolai.  And so, like you

 4     did for the Defence, and I think we can go through this pretty quickly,

 5     could you just take a look at those individually?  I'm not so interested

 6     in the content, but what is important to point out here that does not

 7     come through on the screen, and I think you will agree with me, is that

 8     sometimes we see blackouts on the UNPROFOR document, which is a

 9     traditional thing UNPROFOR might do.  Other times we see what is blue ink

10     underlining particular points on these UNPROFOR requests, and other times

11     we -- it looks like some kind of a weird green highlighter that's used.

12             So if you could just flip through all of those to confirm what

13     I'm saying, to say if you see that.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And just for the record, the initials that we see

15     there on the original are in black pen.  The underlines and the

16     highlight -- the underlines are in blue, and the highlighting is in this

17     green colour.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw it.

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we see anything

21     that the Prosecutor is referring to, these annexes to this document?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, and Mr. Petrusic, I had shown the

24     original to Mr. Petrusic at the break so he could see the green and the

25     blue and the black and the way it was attached.  So that's what we're

Page 28429

 1     referring to.  He may not have known that.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Are you happy, are you satisfied with that?

 3             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm not the problem,

 4     Mr. President.  I have seen these documents, but none of the accused have

 5     them, especially not our client.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That's --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  These have all been disclosed, and I have no

 8     objection to the accused looking at the original if they want.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's proceed along those lines.  Can we have

10     them put either on the ELMO or given to the accused to see straightaway,

11     particularly General Miletic.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In fact, Your Honours, you may want to just --

13     the General is about to agree with me that he saw blue lines, he saw

14     green, and he saw black initials.

15        Q.   Correct, General?

16        A.   Yes.  I can tell one colour from another.

17        Q.   We just got to get it for the record, and thank you.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could just show that -- if we could show

19     the original documents, well, certainly to the accused.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think -- but the ELMO won't reflect the colours.

21     That's the only problem that there is.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We could go to the first page, the next page

23     over.  This is a cover letter, which is obviously a Main Staff document,

24     and it's a cover letter to -- that's stapled on to UNPROFOR document in

25     B/C/S, as everybody will see.  If we could go to the next page --

Page 28430

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Show them quickly to General Miletic because it's

 2     more of concern to him than --

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to the next page on e-court.

 4             THE ACCUSED MILETIC: [Interpretation] I think it is more

 5     important for the judges to see this.  I've seen it long ago, and what

 6     follows is more important than the first time.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's have a look at --

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I agree with the General on that.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's have a look at it.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And as we look on the E-court of the first page,

11     you can see the problem because you can't tell the difference between the

12     colours and all that.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We might try the ELMO as the General looks over

15     it, and I just want to -- could we see the -- try to get it so the full

16     document is on the ELMO.  We don't have the top.  We don't have the

17     initials.  Okay.

18        Q.   And can you tell us, that's -- it's a "no" circled, right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And whose initials are those next to it?

21        A.   The initials of the commander of the Main Staff, General Mladic.

22        Q.   All right.  And to try to save some time, I think we see General

23     Mladic's initials on each one of these pages with either a "no" circled

24     or some --

25        A.   Yes, you're right.

Page 28431

 1        Q.   And on ERN 8413, we have a "za" crossed out and a "no" circled

 2     with General Mladic's initials again.  And that's page 9 in e-court, but

 3     -- oh, you just went by it.  Okay.  There is an example of the "za" --

 4     sorry, the "da," "yes," being crossed out, and does that mean that Mladic

 5     crossed that out and put in "no"?

 6        A.   The person who dealt with this document, probably Colonel

 7     Djurdjic as this is within his purview, wrote "yes/limitation," and he

 8     crossed out in black -- actually, no, not he but the commander crossed

 9     out this in black because you can see his initials, and it says "no."

10        Q.   All right.  So we can tell from this that there is somebody -

11     probably, you believe, Djurdjic - going through this, underlining,

12     highlighting, doing various things, making his recommendation, and Mladic

13     is either confirming it or changing it?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat his answer.  It wasn't

15     audible.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Sorry.  They didn't hear your answer to my last question.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  And on the

20     basis of everything here, Djurdjic signed all these requests and wrote up

21     there:  "We inform you that we have not approved the following convoys

22     ..." and then he took this to General Miletic for his signature so that

23     this notification could be sent to UNPROFOR, and the decision was made by

24     the commander of the Main Staff.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, General, and just -- that should be,

Page 28432

 1     hopefully, finished with that.  There are packets -- just for the Court's

 2     knowledge and the Defence, there are packets like this in the original

 3     format where convoys have been approved as well.  I chose that particular

 4     group.

 5        Q.   Now, let's go to some intercept conversations that I want to ask

 6     you about.  The Muslims, it is our case, were able to, despite General

 7     Tolimir's request for encryption, intercept some communications; and

 8     let's -- the first one we could go to is 65 ter 1231 A in the English and

 9     1231 B in the B/C/S.

10             The copy I have, General, is handwritten.  I don't know if you

11     can make much of it, but I will read what I think is a reliable

12     transcription of that.  Actually, I don't need to read it all, but this

13     is a conversation that we're told happened on the 17th of July at about

14     1950 hours.  So I think you were -- you should have been at the command

15     post about that time, and it was between General Krstic and General

16     Mladic.

17             Do you know -- you've probably been asked this, but I'm sorry, I

18     don't remember.  Did you see Mladic that first day you got to Crna

19     Rijeka, or do you know if he was there?  And he would have been, you

20     know, talking on the telephone over the radio.

21        A.   He was at the command post or in the area of Zepa.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, according to this, he should have likely been at the

23     command post, and this is between a person named Krstic and Mladic, and

24     you can see here that Mladic refers to Krstic as Krle.  Do you know that

25     that is a nickname of General Krstic?

Page 28433

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And when Krstic confirms that Mladic can hear him, Mladic

 3     says:  "Full steam ahead."

 4             Krstic says:  "Understood."

 5             Mladic says: "Get in touch with Miletic on a secure line.  Full

 6     steam ahead.  I didn't accept the Turks' conditions."

 7             And then Krstic: "Understood."

 8             And then Mladic: "Keep up the work.  Bye."

 9             Krstic: "Roger."

10             And I'm sure you know at the time General Krstic is leading the

11     operation on Zepa and that the Muslims, you may recall, had certain

12     conditions during the negotiations at about this time, and that -- I

13     think it's a historical fact that Mladic didn't accept the initial

14     conditions.  So given if this is true, what I have said, why -- in the

15     process or in the organisational sense, why would Mladic want Krstic to

16     tell Miletic full steam ahead?  Why is it important for Miletic to know

17     that Mladic has decided to go forward with this Zepa operation?

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps you're

20     misinterpreting this.  This was communicated on an open line, because the

21     Muslim side intercepted it, but it may be assumed that General Mladic

22     gave some instructions to Miletic which he would convey to Krstic, but

23     not on an open line in order the protect the information.  That's why

24     he's telling him to call up General Miletic using a protected line so

25     that Miletic could inform him of the commander's decision.

Page 28434

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Well, and I agree with you on that.  I think that's what's

 3     happening that General Mladic wants Krstic to get in touch with Miletic

 4     on the secure line to inform him of the commander's decision.  But why

 5     does -- why would Mladic want the chief of operations in training, the

 6     guy that's standing in for Milovanovic, why would he want Krstic to

 7     inform him, Miletic, of Mladic's intentions?  Just -- why does the chief

 8     of operations or a person in his situation need to know this militarily?

 9     That's my question, a simple question.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think there is no foundation for

12     this question.  The witness is being called on to speculate once again.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  First of all, the witness is there at the time.

15     Second of all, the witness has agreed with me about the clear meaning of

16     this, as far as I understood his explanation.  And so if that is the

17     meaning of it - be this the fact of this intercept or it can viewed as a

18     hypothetical, so we don't have decide whether it's true - it's still an

19     important question.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We don't see any room for speculation here.  It's a

23     straightforward question, which the witness can answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, General Mladic said,

25     on a non-secure line:  "Full steam ahead."  This is probably his approval

Page 28435

 1     for the task that Krstic received either from him or from somebody else,

 2     in fact, for the combat activities.  And when he says:  "Contact Miletic

 3     on the secure line.  Full steam ahead.  I didn't accept the Turks'

 4     conditions...", probably Krstic is to receive some information which

 5     should not be heard by the other side, something that General Mladic

 6     conveyed to Miletic to pass on.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Thank you, General, and I agree with that, but why is it

 9     important for Miletic to know this information as opposed to Gvero or

10     somebody else?

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] What information is the Prosecutor

13     referring to?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  The information that was referred to in the

15     previous question on page 74, if I understand it well.  If I am not

16     reading you well, Mr. McCloskey, then please correct me.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the General and I agree on the meaning of

18     this, and I'll try to set the scene a little bit.

19        Q.   But General, you're back.  It's the third day of operations for

20     Zepa, one of the key enclaves in Directive 7.  It's a very difficult

21     battle at this point.  Men are dying.  There is an operations room.  The

22     operations guys are there.  I'm sure Miletic is there.  There's a

23     negotiation going on.  It falls through.  Mladic says:  "Full steam

24     ahead."  Why does guy that's the head of the operation centre, the chief

25     of operations, probably standing in for Milovanovic, why militarily does

Page 28436

 1     Miletic need to have -- to know this?  It's a simple question.  My guess

 2     is you were in that operation room or were unpacking.

 3        A.   Miletic was at the command post.  We don't know what he's

 4     supposed to pass on to Krstic when he calls General Miletic, but it's

 5     evident from this that Krstic was supposed to get in touch with General

 6     Miletic on the secure line, for him to pass on to him something from the

 7     commander that was not supposed to be heard on a non-secure line.  It had

 8     to do with combat activities, and it had to be secure so that the

 9     intentions of the forces of our side would not be known.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have information

12     that in the English transcript it's not clear who is passing information

13     on to whom and who is supposed to get in contact with whom, Krstic to

14     Miletic or Miletic to Krstic?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Which part of the transcript, in particular, are

16     you referring to?  Which lines?  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

17             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [No interpretation] [In English]

18     For him to pass on to him something from the commander.  It is not clear

19     who is him --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not sure we need to clear that up.  The

22     document's been specific.  The witness has been specific three or four

23     times, so it speaks --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I think it's clear enough as well.  Let's

25     proceed.

Page 28437

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   General, General Miletic as the chief of operations and training,

 3     as the guy in charge of the command centre, would really need to know

 4     that Mladic has gone forward with the Zepa attack, wouldn't he?

 5        A.   Administration, the administration.

 6        Q.   Right.  Administration.  But the chief of operations and training

 7     administration really needs to know that General Mladic has decided to go

 8     forward with the Zepa operation because he is, as -- in your words,

 9     following the combat and is at the head of the command centre, which is

10     the information hub and is a critical part of the combat, correct?

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.  One moment.

12             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm truly sorry to

13     intervene again, even though I know this is not what you wish.  But it's

14     exactly what I said.  The questions of the Prosecutor are completely

15     opposed to the answer given by the witness.  I think it's absolutely not

16     clear with what the witness actually said with regard to who had to pass

17     on information to whom.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I object to this.  This is this communicating

19     that we've seen before, and it's really late in the day for this to be

20     going on.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  And we have already stated that we -- in our minds,

22     having read the transcripts, all the questions that have been put for the

23     last ten minutes, there is no doubt as to what the witness has been

24     saying.  So...

25             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [No interpretation] --

Page 28438

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, but you can make a submission later on.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] The transcript does not reflect

 3     what the witness has said.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but then that is something different.  If you

 5     think that the transcript does not reflect what the witness has said,

 6     we'll ask the witness to remove his headphones - please remove your

 7     headphones - and you tell us where it doesn't reflect what the witness

 8     has stated.  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

 9             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] What the witness said is that

10     General Krstic was supposed to call General Miletic to obtain some

11     information from General Miletic, and the Prosecutor constantly refers to

12     information that Krstic conveyed to Miletic, but it's exactly the

13     opposite that was said by the witness.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's an argument, and it's not true.  I have

15     been --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's leave it at that.  That's -- if you read the

17     last two, three pages, I don't know where you're getting this from,

18     Ms. Fauveau.  So let's ask the witness to put his headphones once more

19     and proceed.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   General, I'll try one more time.  When General Mladic wants

22     information communicated to General Miletic by General Krstic, we can

23     conclude, can't we, that General Miletic is an important part of the

24     communications chain?

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 28439

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had the role that is envisaged

 2     for him in the establishment.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   So is your answer yes or no?  Is he an important person in the

 5     information chain regarding this ongoing operation in Zepa?

 6        A.   It says here:  "Get in touch with Miletic."  He is not saying who

 7     will transmit what to whom.  He's just saying:  "Get in touch with

 8     Miletic on a secure line..."  and then he says to Krstic: "Full steam

 9     ahead.  I didn't accept the Turks' conditions."

10             So he's informing Krstic that he has rejected the conditions,

11     he's ordering him to go ahead at full steam, and he's ordering him to get

12     in touch with Miletic.  But who will say -- give information to whom,

13     that's not clear from this.

14        Q.   I surrender.  Let's go on to the next intercept.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 1237 B in English and B/C/S.

16        Q.   General, if you look at -- there's a series of them, but it's the

17     one that starts at 1954 hours.  This is a conversation between Tolimir

18     and an X, and a simple question about this --

19             JUDGE KWON:  If you could check the page, intercept.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, that's not the right one.  I apologise.  65

21     ter 1237.  It's at 1954 hours.  1327, I apologise.

22        Q.   General, you see the one I'm talking about, right, 1954 hours,

23     while we're waiting?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we -- for the English translation, can we

25     move it over so we can see if there's the X and the Ts?  There we go.

Page 28440

 1     That's important.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   This conversation is alleged to be between Tolimir and a person

 3     identified as X, and X tells Tolimir, near the end of this, that:

 4     "You're fully replacing me in the command."

 5             This is 24 July.  I think we can all figure out if someone said

 6     "You're fully replacing me in the command" to Tolimir, that would have

 7     had to have been Mladic.  Do you remember that on 24 July that Mladic

 8     told Tolimir that he was going to be the guy in charge at the command?

 9     It sounds a lot like what you said earlier.  When Mladic is out, he puts

10     somebody in charge.

11        A.   According to the content, who might tell Tolimir he would be

12     replacing him?  Who could Tolimir be replacing him?  Judging by the

13     imperative, by the hierarchy, it could have been the commander of the

14     Main Staff, General Mladic, who said:  "You're fully replacing me in the

15     command," but he emphasizes "in the command."

16        Q.   Right.  And that's kind of what -- that's similar to what you'd

17     said the other day, that when Mladic left he would put somebody in charge

18     at the command.  My question is, you were around there then.  Do you

19     remember that happening?

20        A.   I can't tell you that because I don't know where Tolimir was or

21     where Person X was when this conversation was conducted.  This doesn't

22     mean that Tolimir was in my presence or I in his, for me to say that I

23     heard this.  I don't know.

24        Q.   No.  I'm just asking you if you remembered Mladic doing this, and

25     if you don't, you don't.

Page 28441

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 65 ter 1395, A, and in the

 2     B/C/S, B.

 3        Q.   And, General, this -- don't look at the part that's crossed out.

 4     It starts the --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please try to finish within the next two minutes.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I -- yes, I would really like to finish.  I will

 7     finish.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   This -- I want to remind you that on August 2nd, there were --

11     you may recall there were 500 to a thousand, at least, able-bodied Muslim

12     men fleeing the Zepa area going across the river into Serbia, and I

13     just -- my question is:  Do you remember that situation?  It would have

14     been a hot topic at the ops room at the time.

15        A.   I remember that this happened, but I don't know -- or I don't

16     recall whether it was the headline news on the television news broadcast,

17     but we got this information through the daily combat reports.

18        Q.   So you don't remember getting a report from Beara to Miletic

19     about this situation like it says in the intercept?

20        A.   No, I was not aware of this.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's to 65 ter 3911.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  How many more questions do you have?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I've got two intercepts and two questions.

25     They both involve this -- this person, according to the Muslims.  They

Page 28442

 1     involve General Obradovic.  They should be quick.  I know we don't like

 2     to keep the other Court waiting, but --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's not only that.  Ms. Fauveau -- or

 4     Mr. Petrusic, do you have a redirect, as well, which I suppose you have?

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will have, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then we will have to continue tomorrow.

 7     Thank you.

 8             Mr. Obradovic, I'm afraid we didn't manage to finish.  Perhaps

 9     you could help yourself a little bit better if you kept your answers

10     shorter.  We'll reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of

13                           November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.