Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29764

 1                           Tuesday, 16 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, good morning, everybody.  Good morning, Madam

 7     Registrar.  Could you kindly call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Prosecution today is represented today by

11     Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Mitchell.  Defence teams, I notice the absence of

12     Mr. Ostojic, Ms. Nikolic, and that's it.  The witness is also here,

13     present in the courtroom.

14             Good morning to you, Mr. Jevdjevic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are going to conclude your testimony today.  But

17     before we do so, there is a couple of words to you, Madam Fauveau.

18             We have seen, of course, your filings about the witnesses that

19     have been withdrawn and the witness schedule for January.  Do I take it

20     that that will be it?  In other words, after the second of those two

21     witnesses in January, you will rest your case?

22             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we will no doubt

23     put a filing for the admission of certain documents through a written

24     filing, but that will be it.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you very much.  And I reckon --

Page 29765

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sorry.  I reckon that that will more or less happen

 3     any time between the 21st and the 22nd of January, which means,

 4     Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Josse, that you should be prepared to start

 5     immediately after that.  I mean, aim at those dates or at latest the

 6     following Monday, which will be the 26th, I think, or something like

 7     that.

 8             Yes, Mr. Josse.

 9             MR. JOSSE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Nothing to add at this

10     stage.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  And do you have a rough estimate now as to

12     the estimated -- as to the length of your case?

13             MR. JOSSE:  Not really.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Not really.  Okay.  Thank you.  That's why you need

15     the Christmas break to think about it, I suppose.

16             MR. JOSSE:  We certainly do.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All right.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, Mr. McCloskey.  We wanted to communicate

20     something to you.  We will come to it later on.  In the meantime, we are

21     looking to finding the specific document number.

22             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  Good morning, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, everyone.

Page 29766

 1                           WITNESS:  MILENKO JEVDJEVIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.

 5             Now, we ended yesterday with -- where I had to interrupt you in

 6     your answer because we would have caused a scheduling problem with the

 7     next Court, so I think we should start over so you can hear that question

 8     again, and it was actually an awkwardly worded question.  So let me just

 9     try to clear it up.  It had two parts, and the first part was I'd asked

10     you if, given it is the Prosecution's position, that on the afternoon and

11     evening of 11 July the VRS was not -- didn't really know where the 28th

12     Division was, how was it that you were able to pack up the coms van and

13     go towards Bratunac.

14             The next part of that question was, how did you do it without an

15     order.  But let's do the first part first and then we can -- I'll ask the

16     question about the order again.  So if you could just answer the first

17     question.

18        A.   At that point, shortly before packing up the communications

19     centre at the Pribicevac IKM whereby the Pribicevac point ceased to

20     exist, the army of Republika Srpska in that sector of the front had

21     general information that the main bulk of the 28th Division, and I am

22     thinking about the armed soldiers, was grouping in the northwestern

23     section of the enclave, from Srebrenica towards Konjevic Polje and

24     Kasaba, and that they were intending to break through towards Tuzla with

25     the main bulk of their forces.  And a minor part of the forces because of

Page 29767

 1     disorganisation and difference of opinion, that part would go towards

 2     Zepa.  We also had information that their own civilian population was

 3     ordered or given instructions to relocate to the UNPROFOR base in

 4     Potocari.  This is the information we had in the afternoon hours on the

 5     11th of July.

 6             When -- in the afternoon, General Mladic left the Pribicevac IKM

 7     as well as General Mladic [as interpreted] and General Zivanovic, when

 8     they all went towards Srebrenica, listening to the development of the

 9     situation via the communications while I was by myself at the IKM, I

10     concluded that the battle order of our forces had already advanced far

11     forward and that now it was possible to create a situation that our units

12     would be used in the fighting with the enemy column which probably

13     intended to break out towards Tuzla.

14             At that point, the existence of the IKM at Pribicevac - having in

15     mind this development of the situation - became from a military and

16     strategic point totally unjustified because the forward command post must

17     jump forward in order to be able to successfully serve as a command post

18     for future assignments.  So being guided by this as well as by the fact

19     that I would be in a position to be left in this vast area alone with my

20     soldiers and perhaps in a way be faced with the problem of some possible

21     groups that were trying to break through in that section, I probably

22     reported to the command post communications centre in Vlasenica and told

23     them that I was switching off my equipment and that I was going towards

24     Bratunac.

25             This was very logical for me.  It was very logical for me, and

Page 29768

 1     when I arrived at Bratunac I understood that my commander of the IKM,

 2     General Krstic, was very satisfied with this move that I made.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

 4             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one short brief

 5     correction on page 4, line 5.  Instead of the word "Mladic" it should

 6     state "General Krstic."

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.  Let's proceed.  I take it

 8     you agree to that, Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, absolutely, I am sure he didn't say Mladic

10     twice.  If he did, it was a mistake.

11        Q.   So, Colonel, where did you get -- specifically where did you get

12     the information that the -- or the location of the Muslim forces on the

13     11th of July?  Where did you get that information from or who did you get

14     that information from in particular?

15        A.   This was information received through intelligence action.

16     Specifically, at the IKM at a distance of 150 metres from me there was a

17     vehicle with a monitoring or tapping devices for enemy communications,

18     and it was crewed, by the Drina Corps force surveillance platoon under

19     the command of Captain Mirko --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the last name.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- he was for the needs of the

22     Krivaja 95 operation, posted a listening post or a listening group which

23     kept us informed any time they discovered an important message among the

24     Muslim forces.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry.

Page 29769

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, the interpreters didn't catch the name

 2     of Mirko.  What was his name?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mirko Petrovic.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   So you received the information regarding the location of the

 7     Muslim troops from Mirko Petrovic or his team?

 8        A.   We received the information from that crew of his that was at

 9     Pribicevac in a separate vehicle where they had their own equipment and

10     antennas to listen in on enemy communications in the Srebrenica enclave.

11     Other information we would receive personally from commanders who were in

12     combat contact with the enemy where they were able with less precisions

13     to see more or less in which section of the enclave the forces of the

14     28th Division were grouping.

15        Q.   Well, what did those commanders, those VRS commanders, which

16     commanders told you on the 11th where the 28th Division was?  For

17     example, what did Vinko Pandurevic tell you where the 28th Division was

18     on the afternoon or evening of the 11 July?

19        A.   The commanders who happened to be in contact with the forces of

20     the 28th Division, we were able to receive information about what they

21     could actually see along the axis of their attack where the enemy was

22     moving, to the left, to the right, or backwards.  So the information that

23     we would receive from the commanders were pretty sketchy, especially from

24     positions of the Milici Brigade which was holding elevations at Ravni,

25     Buljim, and Bracan.  They didn't move from those positions to execute

Page 29770

 1     attacks.  So they were able to notice better the grouping of those forces

 2     because that grouping actually was moving towards that sector of our

 3     positions.

 4        Q.   Sir, it's going to be really a long day if you can't focus on my

 5     question.  My question was very simple.  What did Vinko Pandurevic tell

 6     you about the location of the 28th Division on the afternoon or evening

 7     of 11 July, if anything?

 8        A.   He specifically didn't tell me anything what was where --

 9     specifically, we just had general information that they were grouping in

10     the northwestern section of the enclave.

11        Q.   Sir, my question was what, if anything, did Vinko Pandurevic

12     report to you about the location of the 28th Division?  I will insist

13     that you answer my questions, please.  I am not asking you about general

14     information, sir.

15        A.   He didn't tell me anything specific because it was not his job to

16     inform me about anything.

17        Q.   And what did Krstic tell you, if anything, about the location of

18     the 28th Division on the afternoon or evening of 11 July?

19        A.   He didn't also have any obligation to inform me about it, so he

20     didn't.  I told you where I had the information from, and this

21     information was something that was available more or less to all the

22     commanders who took part in that operation.

23        Q.   What, if anything, did Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, the chief of

24     intelligence of the Drina Corps, tell about the location of the 28th

25     Division on the afternoon or evening of 11 July?

Page 29771

 1        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric knew what I knew because the

 2     information from the radio surveillance platoon first arrived to the IKM

 3     where I was, so we were informed at the same time of all the information;

 4     meaning, General Krstic, Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, and myself.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the second part of that question.  I believe

 6     you testified on direct that you -- you did this without orders.  Is that

 7     true?  You just picked up this van and left without receiving any orders

 8     from anyone?

 9        A.   Yes, that is what I said and that is true.

10        Q.   Why didn't you call General Krstic and ask him?

11        A.   Perhaps at that point in time going towards Srebrenica and

12     probably after that towards Bratunac, General Krstic was not accessible

13     from where I was for communication purposes, but for me this was quite a

14     usual matter for me to be able to make a decision of that type myself,

15     that was in the spirit of the overall purposes of the execution of the

16     assignment itself.

17        Q.   Sir, do you remember why you didn't call General Krstic and ask

18     him?  I don't want you to speculate.  When start an answer with "perhaps"

19     or "probably" or "maybe," that's not very helpful.  So if you don't

20     remember, fine, but do you remember why you didn't call Krstic to get his

21     approval to move?

22        A.   I didn't call him about that because I believed that this was

23     normal decision for me to make and that it was quite normal for me to

24     start -- to follow him so that he could effectively command the units

25     from the point in time when he, too, had left Pribicevac.  I considered

Page 29772

 1     it quite normal, according to military logic, for the communications

 2     centre to move behind him or after him once he had left Pribicevac.

 3        Q.   Well, he had a Motorola with him, didn't he, Krstic?

 4        A.   General Krstic always, when he would go from the IKM, took a

 5     soldier of mine with him, a communications person, and that person with

 6     him had a communication device which was used for command within the

 7     units that were taking part in the Krivaja 95 operation.  I do not recall

 8     anything about the Motorola because it was not a device through which I

 9     established any kind of communication with anyone.

10        Q.   Well, sir, there is -- there is a photograph of General Krstic, I

11     believe it's on the 11th of July, in Srebrenica and he's holding a

12     Motorola.  Does that help refresh your recollection?

13        A.   That helps me to remember the fact that when I testified eight

14     years ago, the Prosecutor showed me that photograph, and I said what I

15     said just now, and that was that I did not organise any communications

16     which would imply in their composition the use of Motorolas, because we

17     soldiers did not consider them to be devices that could substantially

18     assist us in the command of the operation because we had protected

19     communications from commanders lower down and communications to the Drina

20     Corps.  I allow for the possibility that General Krstic, perhaps, took it

21     from someone.  He personally never had a Motorola that he carried with

22     him.  It's possible that he took the Motorola from someone purely in

23     order to monitor some of the participants at a lower level such as the

24     participants from his brigade.  I think that was the 2nd Romanija Brigade

25     where he used to be the commander, so he liked to be in touch with

Page 29773

 1     Captain Ljubo Eric, the commander of that combat group, for example, by

 2     listening to him on that line to congratulate him personally or to

 3     encourage him and so on and so forth.  So that would be only in this

 4     aspect.  He could not have had a Motorola in order to command the units

 5     that were subordinate to him.

 6        Q.   He could have spoken to the 10th Sabotage Unit on the 11th of

 7     July over a Motorola, couldn't he, if they were within range?

 8        A.   I agree with that, yes.  Theoretically, he could have been able

 9     to if he had had the need to communicate with them because they did have

10     Motorolas.

11        Q.   And the same would be true if he was within range of Ljubisa

12     Borovcanin who -- and if Borovcanin had a Motorola he could have

13     communicated with him too, if they had both gotten on the same channel,

14     correct?

15        A.   At the beginning, I said that General Krstic did not have a

16     Motorola with him at all times as one of the devices to use to command

17     the units.  We all knew that those devices were very easy to listen to

18     and to disrupt.  He could have taken a Motorola from someone for a while

19     to hear some lower level commanders and komandirs at some channels and to

20     tell them his opinion.  I theoretically allow for the possibility that at

21     that point in time he could have had if he had the need and the authority

22     to command the 10th Sabotage Detachment, but that detachment was not in

23     the communications plan and was not in the plan for the Krivaja 95

24     operation.  It appeared only on the 10th of July, and I don't know what

25     sort of orders he could have had --

Page 29774

 1        Q.   You are just rambling on.  I asked you about Ljubisa Borovcanin.

 2     We don't need to get into the 10th, and we need to try to get specific

 3     and answer the question.  It would be easier on you that way.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now --

 6        A.   As regards the special brigade, I don't know precisely where they

 7     were when they arrived in the Bratunac area, but I think they were in the

 8     Bratunac area which is quite a large range geographically; quite a large

 9     distance for those Motorolas.  So I don't believe that General Krstic

10     could have spoken to that unit in the Bratunac area using a Motorola

11     because the technical conditions were not in place.

12        Q.   Well, let me tell you some of the facts that have come out here

13     and maybe it will refresh your recollection, and if it does, fine; if it

14     doesn't, no problem.  And I hope I will get these roughly correct.

15     Ljubisa Borovcanin received an order from Tomislav Kovac to report to the

16     General Krstic on the 11th of July with his units, and Mr. Borovcanin has

17     told us that he did that and he went to the forward command post looking

18     for General Krstic.  And he said that he did that on the 11th of July

19     when you were there and that Mladic was there.

20             In addition, we have a receipt, I think it was shown to you in

21     direct, from Mr. Borovcanin's driver, a guy named Jovicic, where he took

22     receipt of the Drina Corps coms plan, and that receipt was found in the

23     Drina Corps collection.  So it's pretty clear from the facts in this case

24     that Mr. Borovcanin was the same place that you were on the 11th, he was

25     reporting to the VRS, and he received a coms plan.  It's also very clear

Page 29775

 1     that he relied heavily on Motorolas because we see him with Motorolas on

 2     two days, the 12th and the 13th.  So I don't know if that refreshes your

 3     recollection about Mr. Borovcanin, but perhaps -- does it?  And if it

 4     doesn't, we'll go on.

 5        A.   I absolutely abide by what I said eight years ago, and this is

 6     correct, as regards what I know about the MUP unit which arrived in the

 7     Bratunac area on the 12th of July.  I did not see them myself, or,

 8     rather, I didn't see them.  I didn't see any of them at the forward

 9     command post.  They were not in our communications plan, and we never

10     established any communications from our communications plan with that

11     unit while I was in that area.  And that was the 11th of July at 2300

12     hours.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we have 65 ter 412 up.  And perhaps we can

14     save a little time.

15        Q.   You remember, I believe, Mr. Harmon in talking to you about this

16     question of authority to move the command post asked you -- he pointed

17     out to you the old JNA rules which required that for movement of command

18     that there be authority given.  Do you remember that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And is that what those rules say?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  Excuse me a second.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could take just a very brief look at

24     page 38 in the English and page 60 in the B/C/S.  And under this

25     particular section, it says:

Page 29776

 1             "The command moves from one command post to another following the

 2     plan or in emergency, but always by decision of the commander and with

 3     approval of the senior officer."

 4             So was that rule in place when you, Major Jevdjevic, made the

 5     decision on your own to move the coms?

 6        A.   Yes, that rule was in place.  It was functioning normally because

 7     we were a rather well-organised army.  But whether in this rule or some

 8     other rule, initiative is permitted provided you have weighed the

 9     situation carefully and you are willing to take the consequences for a

10     decision you make on your own initiative.  Likewise, General Pandurevic

11     released the prisoners at Ustipraca and opened up the corridor at

12     Balkovica to have a column of the 28th Division allowed to pass through,

13     and he was never held -- taken to task for that so that if you put a

14     soldier in a trench, you don't have to tell him to shoot every time he

15     sees an enemy approaching him.  So this is simply gauging the situation,

16     because if a situation in wartime appears, you have to adapt the rules to

17     the combat situation and act accordingly.

18        Q.   So are you saying that Colonel Pandurevic took prisoners at

19     Ustipraca or is that a translation issue?

20        A.   It may sound odd in the interpretation, but I wanted to draw a

21     parallel between this decision, which I made on my own initiative, and

22     the decision taken by General Pandurevic on his own initiative to let the

23     Muslim column pass through Ustipraca without the approval of his superior

24     command, this column consisting of civilians and soldiers.

25        Q.   Now, we understand that Mr. Pandurevic apparently decided not to

Page 29777

 1     use his artillery and weaponry on the refugees leaving Ustipraca and we

 2     are happy that he made that decision, but you mentioned "prisoners of

 3     war."  Was that just a slip of the tongue?

 4             MR. HAYNES:  Well, he didn't, he mentioned "prisoners "according

 5     to the transcript.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't mention that.  That is

 7     a misinterpretation.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Are you satisfied with that following

11     the intervention of Mr. Haynes?

12             MR. HAYNES:  I am, and I am also a bit concerned that some terms

13     are getting a bit confused.  This witness is being cross-examined on a

14     document that relates to command centres and on the basis that he moved a

15     communications centre.  Is it the Prosecution's case that a command and a

16     communications centre are the same thing?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.  Mr. McCloskey, do you wish

18     to discuss this in the presence of the witness?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we all agree that the communications

20     centre for a command is an essential part of the command and leave it at

21     that.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  That's your position.  Basically what

23     Mr. Haynes is interested in is knowing what your position is.  So we can

24     proceed, thank you.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

Page 29778

 1        Q.   Now, I want to go over with you the collection that the

 2     Prosecution has, it's a small collection of material that was sent -- we

 3     believe was sent from the Pribicevac forward command post and the

 4     material that we believe was received and just get a few of your

 5     thoughts, and try to keep your thoughts and answers as precise as

 6     possible, if you could.

 7             And could we start with 65 ter 4100.  And I want to show you the

 8     original of this one.  And if you could take a look at it and if we could

 9     put it on the ELMO.  And I want you to specifically look at that

10     signature.  I think you have talked about this briefly in this case so it

11     shouldn't be an issue, but -- and if you could hand that to the usher so

12     they can put it on the ELMO, because as you can see, the scanned version

13     of the original doesn't do the justice to the -- to the signature.

14             Now, we can see from this document, I think you will agree, that

15     it's from the Pribicevac forward command post, dated 5 July, and it's to

16     the command of the Drina Corps' intelligence and security department,

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And it's from Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, the chief of

20     intel of the Drina Corps, and it was sent to the Drina Corps intel

21     department on 5 July at 1600 hours, according to the handwritten note,

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And do you recognise the signature of your guy down here that

25     signs this?

Page 29779

 1        A.   Yes.  This signature resembles all the other signatures of the

 2     cryptographer who was with me, and his name is Oliver Sekulic.

 3        Q.   Right.  And could you also look at that number, it looks like

 4     0411-2, do you know what that is, what that means?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   How about under "predato, Br.01.", do you know what that means?

 7        A.   According to my logistic, this could be the first telegram that

 8     Oliver Sekulic sent after our arrival at the forward command post.  As I

 9     said, we arrived there on the 5th of July in the early afternoon and I

10     conclude now that this might be the first telegram that he handed over or

11     sent from that forward command post.  This number, 04/1-2, is written in

12     a quite different kind of pen compared to the one he used to sign his

13     name, and I don't know who might have entered that number on the document

14     and what it represents, but I'm certain it wasn't him.  I don't know what

15     that number means.  Because -- well, maybe you can see that on the

16     original -- I mean, you can see that on the original, maybe not on the

17     screen.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  Let's go to the next one.  It's 65

19     ter number 4111.

20             We do not have an original of this.  This was obtained from the

21     Defence in the Krstic case.  And again I just -- we see that it's from

22     Pribicevac.  It's sent on 6th July at 2115 hours, and that is again, if

23     we are looking at the B/C/S version, that's Mr. Sekulic's signature,

24     isn't it?

25        A.   Yes.  I would like to be able to see the originals, if possible,

Page 29780

 1     as I had this telegram, but I will try to assist to the best of my

 2     ability.

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, that's all I wanted to -- to confirm, and

 4     that -- well, that it was sent to both the Main Staff and to the Drina

 5     Corps command, correct?  We can see that?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 4082.

 8        Q.   And again, we see this is, as it's up in the left-hand corner,

 9     from Pribicevac to the Drina Corps command, personally to the commander,

10     which we will agree was General Zivanovic at the time, correct?

11        A.   Yes, General Krstic sent this personal correspondence to General

12     Zivanovic from which you can clearly see what I testified about last

13     week, that these two brigades, the Milici and Bratunac Brigade, as I

14     stated last week, it says "brigades that you commanded contributed the

15     least to the success of the operation and by this you have offended those

16     who are unstoppable on their way forward."  So this only confirms that

17     those units simply held the positions and engaged in a show of force.

18     You are trying to convince me that that was not the case.  In any case,

19     this document was sent from the forward command post, and it was also

20     signed by my cryptographer Oliver Sekulic, and this is the fist time I

21     have seen it.

22        Q.   Yes, it's General Krstic just getting right in the face of his

23     commander about something.  Do you have any information that General

24     Krstic was aware he was going to soon become the commander?  How else

25     could he talk like this to his commander?

Page 29781

 1        A.   I don't dare comment on that because of my professional code of

 2     conduct.  I am really not aware of this information.  This was a new and

 3     surprising information for me.  As I said yesterday, that in the heat of

 4     action, when the Drina Corps was engaged in major action, there was a

 5     change-over of commanders and that the Chief of Staff should be in charge

 6     of a hundred men, I spoke about this yesterday, but I see that you are

 7     not interested in hearing about that.

 8        Q.   Oh, I am listening to everything you are saying.  I've just got

 9     the juggle the exhibits and several other things.  So don't worry, I am

10     listening to everything.  I apologise, and standing up here for hours is

11     not always most polite thing in the world.  And I -- some of the

12     information in these telegrams, you know, is important, though I may not

13     be asking you a lot about it; though if you feel it's something important

14     to your testimony, you can always talk about it.

15             Let's go to the next one.  We are now going to go to some of --

16     those are all our collection of sent documents.  Now we have some that we

17     believe were received at the Pribicevac forward command post.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to 65 ter number 4101.

19        Q.   And I -- I'll give you the original of that one so you'll have

20     that advantage.  Now -- and there is -- we see that it's from the command

21     of the Drina Corps, the intelligence section, this is a bad translation.

22     It says "information Section," it should be "Intelligence Section."

23             And it's to quite a few people -- I mean units, but at the end we

24     see Drina Corps IKM Pribicevac, inform the commander, and it's an

25     intelligence report.  And we are back now to July 5, so we are back to

Page 29782

 1     that first day you have mentioned, and it gives some informs about NATO

 2     and other things that I don't really want to ask you about right now.

 3     But it gives a background of Zepa, what's going on a bit -- what's going

 4     on there.  But I want to focus you on the back.

 5             Is that -- again it says "Received 6 July at 1545 hours ..." And

 6     is that Sekulic again?

 7        A.   Yes, that was my cryptographer who was with me all the time and

 8     that is not in doubt at all.  You told me that I might comment on

 9     something a little while ago, and I would like to very briefly in

10     connection with this document.  Last week, during my testimony, at one

11     point I mentioned that my recollection as regards the organisation of

12     communications in the Krivaja 95 operation, was that we had quite

13     incredibly a lot of problems, a lot of interference and noise in the

14     RRU-1 equipment.  And you remember, I told you, if a telegram was rather

15     long, like this one here, you see, because here on the screen you can see

16     only one page but in the original, as you can see, it's a huge telegram.

17             This telegram, in order to be sent through the communications

18     centre, needed at least five minutes of high quality line, but there was

19     often interference which would make the entire telegram collapse.  And

20     the encryptor would have to start all over again and repeat the sending

21     of the telegram, and you can see up here where he wrote in his own hand,

22     and you can see that clearly on the original, when a telegram is sent he

23     put something called a pseudo-accidental sequence of impulses.  These are

24     signs which don't mean anything.  And you can see three places I

25     corrected in his own hand what these codes mean, and he had to do that

Page 29783

 1     when telephoning the communications centre of the centre -- of the

 2     sender.  And he would say, what did it say in that sentence so that you

 3     don't have to repeat the whole telegram.  And then he wrote two sentences

 4     in his own hand which had been destroyed by the interference on the line.

 5             And this is what I mentioned yesterday, that that was the first

 6     time we had a lot of noise in the channel and a lot of interference while

 7     communicating, and now I am pleased to have this before me where I can

 8     show you this.

 9        Q.   So that's Sekulic's own hand that we can see on that original,

10     handwriting?

11        A.   Yes, because you see here there is a line of numbers and other

12     signs.  That's what the encryption device sends on the line, but that

13     appears when there is noise on the line, and although this is not

14     allowed --

15        Q.   No, I understand, that's all I needed, just to confirm that that

16     was Mr. Sekulic.  And this document was received by Sekulic at Pribicevac

17     at 1545 hours, correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next one.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And this is 65 ter 4102.  It's from the Drina

21     Corps command to the Pribicevac IKM.  And it's regarding the forwarding

22     of an order, which I don't really want to ask you about.  It's from

23     General Zivanovic.

24        Q.   And can you confirm that this was also received at the Pribicevac

25     command post, and that's Sekulic's signature at -- so it was received at

Page 29784

 1     2040 hours; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next one.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 4103.  This is a document from the Drina

 5     Corps command intelligence department to many addressees, including the

 6     Drina Corps IKM, and it says "Pribicevac."  And it's an intelligence

 7     report on that -- that first day.

 8        Q.   And can you confirm that again this was received by Sekulic 6

 9     July 1540 hours at the Pribicevac command post?

10        A.   Could we scroll down, please?

11        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's go to the next one.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 207.  And this is from the command of the

15     Drina Corps, dated 7 July to the IKM of the Drina Corps, Pribicevac.

16     This is the only addressee.  And it's about the enemy activities in the

17     enclave of Srebrenica.

18        Q.   And can you confirm that that was received by Sekulic at the

19     Pribicevac forward command post at 2240 hours, as we see in the bottom

20     there?

21        A.   Yes.  It says that Oliver Sekulic received that telegram on the

22     7th of July, and allow me to say here in the first sentence, it says here

23     what you didn't believe me half an hour ago, "According to a report from

24     our intelligence organ in the 1st Milici Brigade in the early morning

25     hours, at about 0500 hours, from the observation post of the Bracan

Page 29785

 1     elevation, movements of enemy soldiers and civilians were observed."  You

 2     remember when half an hour ago, I told you about the Bracan observation

 3     post in the area of the Milici Brigade and how the commanders of that

 4     brigade informed us of the movements of the enemy.  You didn't believe

 5     me.  This is first time I've seen the document, but every time I see a

 6     new document, it only goes to confirm what I previously said in my

 7     testimony.

 8        Q.   I don't want to argue about it, but it sounds to me like that

 9     this is observing from -- what's going on at the Zepa enclave, but this

10     is dated the 7th of July so I don't think I -- we need to ask you anymore

11     questions about that.

12        A.   On the 7th of July, it was the second day of combat actions in

13     Srebrenica.  That day nothing was done because of the rain and the fog,

14     and probably you are now linking this with Zepa.  But what I read about

15     the Pracan observation post in the Milici Brigade area is probably

16     consistent with what I talked about half an ago and you didn't believe

17     me, and for the first time I am seeing this document and it confirms what

18     I testified.  This is what I wish to say.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

20             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, sorry to intervene,

21     but from that comment I believe that there is a mistake in the English

22     translation, because in the English text we can read:  [In English]

23     "Small group of civilians from the Zepa enclave."  [Interpretation] And,

24     indeed, what is written in the text in B/C/S is:  "Small group of

25     civilian population towards the Zepa enclave."

Page 29786

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  That would make more sense.

 2        Q.   And that there was civilians seen by the Milici Brigade going in

 3     the direction of Zepa on the 7th, is rather interesting.  I've never

 4     heard it before.  But let's not worry about it.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document, 65 ter number

 6     4105.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Probably it's clear to

 8     everyone that the sentence says that the Milici Brigade was located

 9     towards Srebrenica.  Pracan is also in the direction of Srebrenica.  I

10     know that area well, I spent years there.  But all right, very well.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:

12        Q.   I don't think there is any question that on 11 July, 11, 12, 13

13     July that there were certain Muslims going towards Zepa.  And the issues

14     of when people knew about it and all is another issue, but let's -- let's

15     get to that when we get to that date.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So let's go to 65 ter number 4105, another

17     document from the Drina Corps intel department dated 8 July, and it's to

18     the forward command post at Pribicevac, the "Attention:

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric," and it's Vujadin Popovic.  And it's talking

20     about "the UNPROFOR position in Biljeg is still under our control."

21        Q.   I don't really want to ask you about that issue.  I just want to

22     confirm that this is again received on 8 July by Mr. Sekulic at 2115

23     hours, correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 4106.  This is from

Page 29787

 1     the Bratunac Brigade intelligence and security organ from Momir Nikolic,

 2     dated 9 July.  And it's to three different parties, the Main Staff

 3     security administration, the Drina Corps security department, and the

 4     Pribicevac IKM Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.  In this, they are talking

 5     about the DutchBat requesting a meeting with the representative of the

 6     Serbian side at Zuti Most.

 7             And can you just confirm that this again was received at the

 8     Pribicevac forward command post on 9 July at 1500 hours by Oliver

 9     Sekulic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next one, 65 ter number 3018.  This

12     is from the Drina Corps command intelligence and security department,

13     very urgent, to the Drina Corps IKM at Pribicevac, General Krstic

14     personally, and to the Main Staff intel and security department, General

15     Tolimir, personally, and it says it's from General Tolimir, interestingly

16     enough.

17             Now, can you confirm that this was received by Mr. Sekulic at 9

18     July at 2025 hours from his handwriting there?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   All right.  And I won't ask you about the substance of that.

21     Let's go to the next one, 65 ter 6D00022.  This is a document that is

22     actually from the Drina Corps forward command post, Pribicevac, to the

23     Main Staff and the Drina Corps command.  And it's by General Krstic.

24     You've talked about this document before, and sure you will agree with me

25     that that is Mr. Sekulic's signature on this?

Page 29788

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And there is - just for everyone's information, there is no ERN

 3     on this document.  It was received from one of the Defence teams.

 4             And, sir, you have testified about this that this "received at

 5     2320 hours" meant that it was received by somebody else at 2320 hours; is

 6     that correct?  Not the Pribicevac forward command post?

 7        A.   I am glad that it's the turn of a document of this nature.  Other

 8     than the first one in the entire series of documents, all were documents

 9     that some of the part -- or one of the participants sent to the IKM,

10     except for the first one from the 5th of July which talks about the

11     document which was sent from the IKM to the intelligence organ of the

12     Drina Corps.  And it was coded or encrypted and Oliver Sekulic wrote

13     "delivered."

14             Now, this document of the 9th of July is also going from the

15     Drina Corps IKM at Pribicevac and it's signed by General Krstic.  But

16     isn't it plainly obvious that the encryption person wrote in his

17     handwriting "received."  What does that mean?  And he's handing the

18     document over, but he wrote at the bottom "received on the 9th of July,

19     1995 at 2320 hours."  I assume that you would put this set of questions

20     to me, but I thought that we had clarified that eight years ago.

21             I said that we had certain problems in communications and in the

22     encryption because of disruptions when a telegram was sent out.  He never

23     knew, until the other side tried to decode it, whether they would manage

24     to do that or not because of the interference.  Then, they received an

25     order so that he would be sure that the telegram was successfully

Page 29789

 1     dispatched, the other side would need to confirm that they received it

 2     and decoded it successfully and then the encryption personnel would

 3     receive that for the telegram that they sent out, they would need to make

 4     a note that it was received when the other communications centre reported

 5     back to them that it had been received successfully and decoded.

 6             I found this same telegram, the Defence showed it to me just by

 7     accident, that arrived at the command of the Drina Corps to which it was

 8     addressed, and specifically on that telegram the Defence has that

 9     telegram.  They can give it to you.  You can make a comparison.  The

10     encryption person wrote that he received this telegram at 2320 hours and

11     he dictated that time to Oliver Sekulic when they spoke and then Oliver

12     Sekulic was sure that his telegram was successfully dispatched in these

13     difficult conditions, and then he wrote here "Received on the 9th of

14     July, 1995, at 2320."  The same telegram that arrived at the other side,

15     the same time is written, 2320, and that is my explanation.

16        Q.   Okay.  And I will agree with you that there is a received version

17     of the document that was received at the Drina Corps that you are

18     referring to.  I will get the 65 ter number of that for the record.  It's

19     6D -- no, I don't have that right now but I will get that.  I agree with

20     you, it does exist.  But you will agree with me, I think, that this

21     document was in fact sent from the Pribicevac forward command post on the

22     evening of July 9th?

23        A.   That is absolutely correct, just as I am asking you to confirm

24     whether in the received version the same time is written, affirming what

25     I said.

Page 29790

 1        Q.   Yes, it is.  And it's the Prosecution's position that because we

 2     have seen many, many received documents, and we have never seen -- we've

 3     seen many received documents and we have never seen any mention like this

 4     noting the time it was received some place else, that if that was the

 5     case, instead of putting "received on 9 July 1995 at 2320 hours," they

 6     would have put "at the Drina Corps command," and they didn't.  So it's

 7     the position of the Prosecution that this likely means that one of two

 8     things:

 9             Mr. Sekulic, like we all do, made a mistake.  Instead of putting

10     "sent" he put "received," or, because we don't have the original,

11     somebody forged this for some reason.  What do you think of those two

12     options?

13        A.   Sir, I am still in that group of people who find it very hard if

14     somebody does not believe what they are saying, and it effects me even

15     more when I am testifying under oath before this Trial Chamber and

16     somebody tells you that you have not been telling the truth for eight

17     years.  Perhaps my mental -- or my mindset cannot understand that, so I

18     apologise to you.  But all I am stating here are facts, because in 2008

19     when I discussed similar things about a telegram of the 12th of July, I

20     remained by my assertion that the IKM and the communications centre left

21     Pribicevac on the 11th, while Mr. Harmon showed me a telegram about --

22     where Oliver put his signature on the 12th.  I still stood by what I

23     said.  I didn't understand the gist of that document, but I asked the

24     Defence, they copied the document, I took it with me from The Hague and I

25     couldn't wait to find the encryption person and to ask him what it was

Page 29791

 1     all about.

 2             And he explained the actual problems that the encryption

 3     personnel had and the instructions that they had, and this encryption

 4     person came on -- in 2001 and stated this explanation before the Court in

 5     the case of General Krstic, and I thought that in this aspect all the

 6     matters were crystal clear, but still I am here available to answer all

 7     of your questions nevertheless.

 8        Q.   Mr. Jevdjevic, don't take it personally.  The Prosecution's

 9     position is the same now as it was then, but you are jumping ahead of us

10     a bit.  The judges haven't seen that yet, and so they are probably not

11     quite sure what we are talking about, but we are going to get to those

12     documents, believe me.  But let me say did you actually -- are you saying

13     after you testified in Krstic, you went and talked to Mr. Sekulic about

14     this document on 9 July or are you talking about the 12 July document

15     that we will get to in a minute?

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go into private session just for a second.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's do that, please.

25                           [Private session]

Page 29792











11  Page 29792 redacted. Private session.















Page 29793

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And for the record, the received version of this

 8     document that was received at the Drina Corps at 2320 hours is 65 ter

 9     4083.

10        Q.   Sir, just on this document, and we'll get to the 12th, on this

11     document don't you leave open the -- the likelihood that Mr. Sekulic just

12     made a mistake and wrote "received" when he should have wrote "sent,"

13     should have written "sent"?

14        A.   I do not allow for that possibility at all, because on all the

15     documents, mostly from the 6th or the 7th when he was faced with this

16     problem, there is a whole set of these documents that went out from the

17     IKM.  I think this one here is the 8th in order -- or in sequence, if you

18     can see it -- well, I don't know who has the original.  I think it's a

19     08/95, so it's the eight document.  Probably it would be a good thing to

20     analyse each one, since the time is consistent with the document time

21     that it was received in the command of the Drina Corps.  So obviously he

22     was writing the word "primljeno," "received," here with the intention

23     that it should mean that the act was successfully received at the end

24     where it was supposed to be received.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to the next one, it's 65 ter 4084.  We jumped to

Page 29794

 1     the 11th, so we are getting closer.  And I will show you the original if

 2     it will help, but this is -- like the others we have seen, it is from the

 3     Drina Corps.  Now, this is the 4th RIV, the Radio Reconnaissance Platoon,

 4     dated 11 July, and it's distributed to the Drina Corps intelligence

 5     department and the forward command post, and it's from Lieutenant

 6     Petrovic who you've mentioned.  And it is -- you'll agree with me this is

 7     Mr. Sekulic's signature again, correct?

 8        A.   Yes, this is the signature of my encryption person, and it's a

 9     document received from the Drina Corps and it's evidently a document that

10     arrived from another IKM to the IKM at Pribicevac.  It's a receipt that,

11     like I said today, that we received information from intelligence

12     sources.  And this is an information of such a nature coming from the

13     Radio Surveillance Platoon from the corps command, and those who were

14     close to us would provide this information to us by voice, not by act.

15             And it indicates the intention of the forces of the 28th

16     Division, and even in a sentence it says that the conversation was

17     intercepted, and ultimately something is wrong, they intend to destroy

18     the UN, and they are thinking of the units of the Dutch Battalion in

19     Srebrenica.  That's what it says in this document.

20        Q.   Yes, we can see that, and you will agree with me that this was

21     received by Mr. Sekulic at the Pribicevac forward command post on 11 July

22     at 1530 hours?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now let's go to the next one, which is 65 ter 6D00207.  We

25     don't have an original of this.  This was given to us by the Defence,

Page 29795

 1     Krstic.  And -- however, we can see that this was from the Main Staff to

 2     the Drina Corps command and the Drina Corps IKM/1.  It doesn't say

 3     "Pribicevac," unlike the others, but if we do look at it down at the

 4     bottom that's Mr. Sekulic's signature down there, isn't it?

 5        A.   Regardless of the fact that it doesn't say that it was addressed

 6     to the Pribicevac IKM, it says that it was addressed to the IKM/1 of the

 7     Drina Corps, in view of the fact that at that time the Drina Corps had

 8     only one IKM and that was the one at Pribicevac.  It means that -- I have

 9     no doubt that this is the Pribicevac IKM and also because the signature

10     of my encryption person is here, that he received the document at 1735

11     hours.  I remember this document very well, as compared to some other

12     ones, because at the time I read it myself and I read it because at that

13     time there -- General Mladic, General Zivanovic, or General Krstic, or

14     Colonel Vukota were not at the IKM.  So as the communications person, I

15     was the only officer present at the IKM at the time, so my encryption man

16     at the time, because he had a certain deadline in which he had to

17     dispatch priority telegrams, and it does say "very urgent" here, it is

18     his assignment to dispatch -- or to deliver the telegram immediately to

19     the person it was addressed to.  Since no one was there who had command

20     responsibility to receive the telegram and to read its contents, he asked

21     me what he should do, because he was not permitted to hold a telegram

22     without delivering it, without passing the telegram on, because it was a

23     very urgent one.  So I read this telegram purely to see which issues it

24     was dealing with, how urgent it was, in order to be able to intervene.

25     And I was very glad to read a very civilized and military inclined view

Page 29796

 1     of General Gvero about the treatment by our forces of the UNPROFOR where

 2     there is a sentence that the UNPROFOR and the civilian population should

 3     be treated in the spirit of the convention.

 4             And then it says "Regardless of their behaviour, regardless of

 5     their extreme behaviour, unfavourably extreme behaviour by UNPROFOR, that

 6     they should be treated in a civilized and proper manner," as should be

 7     the case for the civilian population as well.  So I remember this

 8     document very well.

 9        Q.   So you agree then that General Gvero is instructing through the

10     subordinate commands that the Drina Corps ensure the utmost correct

11     treatment of UNPROFOR?

12        A.   Yes, he issues these instructions.  Ultimately, it is part of his

13     duties and matters that were in his jurisdiction, in my opinion.

14        Q.   So do you think General Gvero had the authority to issue

15     instructions to the entire corps like this, to the corps people referred

16     to in this -- in this document?

17        A.   As for whether he had that authority or not, I don't know, but I

18     know that it was within his purview to deal with UNPROFOR and the

19     relations with UNPROFOR.

20        Q.   So whether -- whether he had it or not, he was using his

21     authority, wasn't he, when he did -- sent this instruction?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

23             MR. JOSSE:  We are a little concerned about the terminology used

24     here.  My learned friend used the word "introduction," the document says

25     "warning."  We say there is a difference.

Page 29797

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.  Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think you mean I used the term "instruction."

 3             MR. JOSSE:  I beg your pardon, correct.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I called it what I thought it was.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's proceed.  I think it's clear that

 6     we can proceed now.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   And, so, whether he had the authority or not, let's not quibble.

 9     Let's -- you will agree with me he was using the authority of his

10     position to send this document and this instruction to the units in it?

11        A.   I don't know about that part and I wouldn't wish to speculate,

12     but I did agree with this opinion more or less, so I just remember that

13     particular telegram.  As for who had instructions and authority within

14     the Main Staff is something I don't know.  I just know that it was within

15     his purview to deal with cooperation with UNPROFOR and contacts with

16     journalists and so on.

17        Q.   Do you -- did you feel as a major in the VRS that you were

18     obligated to follow his instruction in this and treat UNPROFOR fairly?

19        A.   Well, we, according to my information, did that.  Even without

20     this instruction, the instruction was just there in order to affirm some

21     of my thinking and commitment in that sense, and that's why I was glad

22     that this was being materialised on paper.  This is why I remembered this

23     document.  The document reflected my opinion.

24        Q.   Yes, it's -- and we are all happy about this, but did you feel

25     obligated to follow this document?  Did you feel obligated to follow the

Page 29798

 1     instruction of General Gvero?

 2        A.   Obviously the document did not affect me.  I had my commander

 3     whose orders I implemented, so the document in some kind of sense of an

 4     order did not include me.  It just touched me in the sense that I also

 5     shared the same lines of thinking as reflected in this document.  In the

 6     army there is a hierarchy, so I had my own commander superior to me so

 7     that his orders would affect me.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  It's the time.  We can have the break.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  And just --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just one minor matter.  Mr. McCloskey, page 29, line

12     24, you indicated that the received -- the 65 ter number of the received

13     version of the controversial document was 65 ter 4083.  I couldn't locate

14     it.  Could you check it again, please.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  And before we rise, Judge Prost would like to

17     address you.

18             JUDGE PROST:  Yes.  We wanted to alert the parties, specifically

19     the Prosecution and the Borovcanin Defence team, that at the conclusion

20     of the evidence from this witness later this morning, we would like to

21     hear the comments of both the Prosecution and the Borovcanin Defence team

22     specifically and solely on the issue related to the pending motion that

23     focuses on two documents, excerpts of P210 and P3838.  And the only point

24     we would like to hear oral submissions on with respect to that motion is

25     in relation to the excerpts of P210 in relation to Rules 89(c) and (d);

Page 29799

 1     that is specifically the arguments of both parties on relevance,

 2     probative value, and any possible prejudicial effect to fair trial

 3     flowing from those -- that one particular document.  So we would be

 4     expecting oral submissions on that single point later this morning.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We will have a 25-minute break now.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. McCloskey, how much longer, if I

10     may ask, just to know where we stand?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I hope I can finish in a couple of hours.  We are

12     at the --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no it's --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY: -- the place we were trying to get.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  No.  We just wanted to know where we stand, that's

16     all.  We are not cutting you short.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed were.  Thank you.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Judge Kwon, it's now there.  It hasn't been

20     there.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I got the message.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Thanks.  All right.

23        Q.   Let's go now to 65 ter 438, and it's a two-pager, Colonel, so you

24     may find this easier as well.  This is a document Mr. Harmon showed you,

25     and this is not -- we don't have any version that was received at

Page 29800

 1     Pribicevac.  This has a big stamp on it.  As we see on the back page, it

 2     has received at 2230 hours, processed at 2250.  But it was sent, as I

 3     think you will agree with me, from the Drina Corps command on 11 July,

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes, it was sent from the command of the Drina Corps on the 11th

 6     of July at -- and it was processed at 2250 and immediately after that,

 7     forwarded to all the units as mentioned here.  As the corps commander,

 8     Major General Zivanovic was not at 2200 hours on the 11th of July, he was

 9     not at the corps command at that time.  Colonel Pedrag Josic signed for

10     him.  I recognise this signature.  And this document was not received at

11     the Pribicevac forward command post for the simple reason that there was

12     no communications centre at the time at Pribicevac, so the document could

13     not have been received there.  That's my opinion.

14        Q.   All right.  And we see what it's about.  It actually has to do

15     with -- it's entitled "Order to block the linking up of the forces of the

16     28th enemy division with the forces in the enclaves."  I don't think I

17     will ask you if this information is -- is consistent with what you've

18     been saying or not, unless you would like to comment on it.

19        A.   I don't think there is any need to read the document now.  I

20     don't know what it's about.

21        Q.   Well, it's about the 28th Division, and it's an order to block

22     them.  And I believe it looks like they are worried about the 28th

23     Division returning from a battlefront to the Srebrenica area, to come

24     into the backs of the VRS forces.  There is no talk in here of the 28th

25     Division taking off towards Tuzla.

Page 29801

 1        A.   You're wrong, Mr. Prosecutor.  I'm sorry I didn't read the

 2     document at once.  One should read every document right away, but it says

 3     quite precisely here:  "The command of the 28th Muslim Brigade from

 4     Srebrenica asked to go back from the Sarajevo war front."  So this is

 5     about Naser Oric, and perhaps a few of his officers, and it's quite

 6     incredible that you are saying that the 28th Division was at the Sarajevo

 7     war front when it says quite clearly that only the command was there.

 8     And this refers primarily to Naser Oric.

 9        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  It's Naser Oric in the command, he's what I

10     meant to refer to.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's look at the next document.

12     It's 65 ter number 439.  It's the -- I'm sure you will agree with me,

13     it's same document as the other one, basically, 11 July, confidential

14     number 03/1574, which is the same one we just saw.  However, this one, we

15     can see a very familiar Mr. Sekulic.  So this was --

16        A.   Can you show me that page, please?  Or, if you have a document in

17     hard copy it would be even more useful.

18        Q.   Yes, they can blow that up for you on the screen to make it a

19     little bit bigger so you can see the signature, but I am sure you will

20     agree with me that this is the same document and this is the receipt

21     version of the document, where Mr. Sekulic says -- and this is -- well,

22     let's see who it is addressed to.  It is addressed to the IKM forward

23     command post.  It does not specifically set out Pribicevac.  But we

24     recognise -- I am sure we recognise the signature of Mr. Sekulic.  And it

25     says, "Received 11 July at 2350 hours."

Page 29802

 1        A.   I agree with you, as it doesn't say "Pribicevac forward command

 2     post," I agree with you that it refers to that document.  And it says

 3     down here that the document was received by him at 2350.  That's that

 4     time.  You probably want me to comment on how this was possible.

 5        Q.   Absolutely.

 6        A.   This is the time I mentioned in my testimony seven and eight

 7     years ago and in the course of last week, when, together with the

 8     cryptographer, and the communications centre, I arrived in the command of

 9     the Drina Corps at Vlasenica.  From the point in time when we left the

10     Pribicevac forward command post at about 1900 hours on the 11th, my

11     cryptographer no longer had the technical conditions he needed to receive

12     or send documents.

13             In the meantime, documents arrived for the communications centre

14     somewhere, but he was unable to receive them.  So those documents piled

15     up in other communications centres because they were unable to forward

16     them to us.  This document is such a document.  On behalf of General

17     Zivanovic, who was attending a meeting at Bratunac at the time, it was

18     signed by Colonel Pedrag Josic, but the communications centre of the

19     Drina Corps was not able to hand this over to Sekulic because Sekulic was

20     already travelling with me from Pribicevac towards Bratunac and then on

21     to Vlasenica.

22             When we arrived at the forward command post of the corps at

23     Vlasenica, of course I reported to the operations centre and he to the

24     communications centre.  And then he was able to receive this document at

25     2350 when it was handed to him from the communications centre of the

Page 29803

 1     Drina Corps in Vlasenica, because that communication centre had to hand

 2     over this document to all the addressees listed here.  And he took the

 3     opportunity only when we returned to Vlasenica to hand this document over

 4     to the cryptographer for him to distribute.  He was unable to send it to

 5     him through a technical communications equipment.  He handed it over to

 6     him physically, and then he stated here that he received this document in

 7     Vlasenica at the time mentioned here, at 2350, and this corresponds

 8     fully.  And that's my response.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So this was printed out at Vlasenica?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And so the print -- the teleprinter that printed this one is

12     different from the teleprinter that was at the Pribicevac forward command

13     post?

14        A.   No.  At Pribicevac we had two kinds of teleprinters.  One was

15     working and the other one was a reserve, but they were of two different

16     makes and one can recognise this by the shape of the letters.  This is an

17     electronic teleprinter produced -- well, it was called ETL1.  It was the

18     Nis Electronic industry that produced it.  The other teleprinter which we

19     happened to have in reserve was produced by Siemens, it was of the

20     mechanical time, and the letters are quite different.  They're like small

21     written letters and it's T100.  That's the type of teleprinter it is.

22             So you will see that on the 5th and 6th of July, the documents

23     sent by Svetozar Kosoric from Pribicevac, Sekulic, the cryptographer used

24     the mechanical teleprinter.  And when one was working, the other one was

25     used as a reserve.  Or when he was typing on one he was using the other

Page 29804

 1     one to decrypt the message.  That's how he worked.

 2        Q.   Sir, you've testified that documents came to the Drina Corps

 3     command were piling up there and that when you guys got to the command,

 4     those documents were given to Sekulic and he -- well, this particular

 5     one, he signed and received, correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I don't --

 8        A.   Colonel Pedrag Josic.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  so this document was printed

10     out by a machine at the -- in Vlasenica?

11        A.   Yes.  When Sekulic arrived the machine printed this out, and he

12     was handed this document personally, because before that there was no

13     technical means for the document to be sent to him and it was intended

14     for him as cryptographer at the Pribicevac forward command post.

15        Q.   Now, you said these documents had been piling up waiting for him

16     and when he got there, they were handed to him.  Now you're saying it was

17     printed out after he was there.  Which is it?

18        A.   You understand, the cryptographer -- if you knew the technique

19     you wouldn't be putting this question.  When the cryptographer prepares

20     this document for all the units, it's a long strip of paper, a long

21     narrow strip of paper, and he sends this to all units, all units, and he

22     encircles the unit to which it has been sent.  And probably only the

23     Pribicevac forward command post was left over.  It had not been sent to

24     them.  And when Sekulic turned up in the evening of the 11th at that

25     communications centre, this is military discipline.  He reports and he

Page 29805

 1     says, I was absent, do you have any telegrams for me.  Or, perhaps, the

 2     encryptor of that communications centre rang him up and said, Hey, where

 3     have you been, I have several telegrams for you.  And then he took that

 4     tape, or, rather, that long narrow strip of paperer, he put it through

 5     the machine, the machine typed this out, he signed it, and then he handed

 6     it over.  Because the cryptographer at the Vlasenica centre had to sign

 7     in his report that he had sent the document to all the units.  That's

 8     what this is about.

 9        Q.   So this document that was at Vlasenica, was it printed out before

10     or after Sekulic got there, as far as you know?

11        A.   Well, those are details which are so irrelevant as far as I am

12     concerned.  It's just as irrelevant as the question whether I entered

13     this courtroom by that door or this door.  I am answering your questions,

14     of course, but there was a possibility if that cryptographer knew - and

15     he must have known - that we were leaving Pribicevac, he might have typed

16     this out beforehand to hand it over to Oliver Sekulic.  Or when Oliver

17     Sekulic arrived he might have printed it out then and handed it to him.

18     Those are just logical conclusions I am drawing.

19        Q.   But it was printed out on a Drina Corps teleprinter, not the

20     forward -- former forward command post teleprinters, right?

21        A.   That's logical, yes, in the communications centre of the Drina

22     Corps.  The teleprinters were the same.  We used the same teleprinters.

23     We had the same ones both in the Drina Corps and at the forward command

24     post.  It's a machine.  The machines are the same, just as rifles are the

25     same.

Page 29806

 1        Q.   That's a -- probably a good comparison, because you know you can

 2     determine whether a -- if you get a good bullet sample whether a bullet

 3     is fired from the same or a different rifle, and I think it's the same

 4     thing for teleprinters.  And we'll go check and get back to you on

 5     whether or not this document is the same teleprinter as is at the

 6     Pribicevac forward command post or one from someplace else.  We'll let

 7     you know.  I don't know the answer to that right now.

 8        A.   I'll assist you to the best of my ability.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let's keep going.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter number 160.

11        Q.   This -- I think I have got an original for you which, if you want

12     it.  We'll see that this is from the Drina Corps command, the 4th RIV, we

13     have heard about them before.  It's dated 12 July.  And we have that

14     little handwritten business again, 04/1/50 written in some ink up on the

15     right-hand side.  And this is to -- specifically to the Drina Corps

16     intelligence department at the Pribicevac forward command post.  And it's

17     an interim report.  And they're listening on a particular frequency, and

18     they know that these -- their intercept guys have concluded that this is

19     Naser Oric's men, we can see.  This is also -- isn't that Sekulic's

20     signature there on the original one?

21        A.   Yes, that's his signature.

22        Q.   So he received that 12 July at 0740 hours?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And interestingly enough, your intercept guys say that "By

25     monitoring this network, we reached the conclusion that they were all

Page 29807

 1     present, that they were heading in a direction unknown to us as yet,

 2     together with the people and their groups."

 3             So your monitoring guys don't know what direction they are going

 4     in at that point, I take it, correct?

 5        A.   This intelligence information and the date is the 12th of July,

 6     and it's in the early morning, 4.30, our intercept - as I don't know what

 7     group it was - sent information to their commander, Mirko Petrovic in

 8     Vlasenica, and this information in my view fully reflects the situation

 9     of the 28th Division in the night between the 11th and the 12th.  It says

10     that the participants are known as Naser's men, komandirs, and the

11     signalsmen, and group intercepting them concluded that they were moving

12     towards us along an unknown axis together with people, civilians and

13     their groups.

14             So this is the information received from the surveillance group.

15     The units he was listening in to didn't say they were heading in a

16     direction unknown, but the people listening in were unable to determine

17     by listening to the conversation at 4.30 what direction they were heading

18     in.  So it's only one of the conversations they listened in to and they

19     were unable to pinpoint the direction in which these people were heading.

20        Q.   And this is this reconnaissance unit, is this coming from the

21     Drina Corps command or from the truck down the -- or the truck that was

22     at Pribicevac?  Do you know where this is come from?  It says Drina Corps

23     command.

24        A.   I don't know precisely because the 4th Reconnaissance Platoon had

25     several points at various trig points where they listened in.  I know

Page 29808

 1     only about the one at Pribicevac, where they were during the operation,

 2     but where the other points were, I don't know.  And where this group was

 3     that sent this report, I don't know.  They may have been at Pribicevac or

 4     somewhere else, at Bracani for example.  But I don't know.

 5        Q.   It's fair to conclude that Mirko Petrovic thought that the Drina

 6     Corps intelligence department was present -- was still present at

 7     Pribicevac, right?  That's why he addressed it to him there,

 8     specifically.

 9        A.   He sent this on the 12th.  I allow for the possibility that he

10     thought that the forward command post and the communications centre still

11     existed at Pribicevac.  That's quite logical, because in the evening at

12     around 2400 hours we arrived at Vlasenica, he was probably asleep, and at

13     4.30 in the morning his men discovered this and sent this telegram.  And

14     as you can see my cryptographer signed that he received this document at

15     7.40.  Some time has to elapse for the telegram to be written, typed out,

16     encrypted, sent, so all that took place before 7.40.  And in the morning

17     I am absolutely sure that when we woke up in the morning of the 12th, in

18     the meantime, another telegram arrived for Sekulic.  But he was no longer

19     at Pribicevac, he was now in Vlasenica.  He had arrived there, and then

20     the cryptographer simply typed out, he used the ETL teleprinter, he put

21     that long narrow strip of paper through the machine, and he thus

22     fulfilled his obligation as regards this telegram.

23        Q.   So this type-face should not match the teletypes received in

24     Pribicevac?  It should come from a Drina Corps teletype where you say it

25     was received?

Page 29809

 1        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  And --

 2        Q.   This very important reconnaissance unit, a key part of the

 3     intelligence operation, doesn't know where the Drina Corps intelligence

 4     department is?

 5        A.   Objectively at that point in time, Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric was

 6     the chief of intelligence.  I assume that he spent the night between the

 7     11th and the 12th at Bratunac.  This was only one night.  At that point

 8     in time they did not know that we were not at Pribicevac, but as soon as

 9     we turned up in the morning and had a rest, on the 12th, as soon as we

10     woke up they knew we were here and they handed him this information

11     straight away.  That is logical.  And the contents of this information

12     fully reflect what was happening as regards the 28th Division in the

13     night between the 11th and the 12th.  Had the content been different, you

14     might have had more arguments to impute to me.  But this fully

15     corresponds to what was actually happening in the night between the 11th

16     and the 12th.

17        Q.   Well, Mr. Kosoric was seen on video in Potocari on the 12th of

18     July.  So does that help refresh your recollection where he was?

19        A.   I don't deny that, but it says here "deliver to the intelligence

20     department of the command of the Drina Corps," and underneath it says

21     "Forward to the Pribicevac forward command post."

22             Whether Kosoric as the first one listed here received this or

23     not, I am not interested in that.  What matters is that Sekulic where it

24     says "Pribicevac forward command post" received it.  He may have been --

25     Kosoric may have been in Potocari on the 12th, I don't know.  I am only

Page 29810

 1     telling you what I do know.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's go to the next one, 65 ter 4086.  It might

 3     have the original.  This is from that same group, the reconnaissance

 4     folks, they are sending this to the Drina Corps command intelligence

 5     department, the IKM Pribicevac.  And it's difficult to tell, maybe you

 6     can help us, whether they are addressing this to the Drina Corps command

 7     intelligence department at the IKM in Pribicevac or it's got two

 8     addressees; one the Drina Corps intelligence department, and two, the IKM

 9     Pribicevac.  Can you tell from looking at this which one it is?  The last

10     one, I think it was a little clearer in the original.

11        A.   Well, to tell you the truth the Drina Corps has one intelligence

12     department, or squad.  Whether the person who sent this wanted to put the

13     title and the location or whether he thought it was understood that

14     Svetozar Kosoric was at Pribicevac at the time, I don't know.  He may

15     have assumed or known that Svetozar Kosoric was at Pribicevac and he

16     might have thought he was at that forward command post.  I don't know.  I

17     can't think of -- well, I don't know what I might have assumed.  I don't

18     know.

19        Q.   Okay.  And just -- there is a couple of mistakes in the English

20     on this.  It's -- I think you will agree that this is Mirko Petrovic, not

21     Potrovic.  And the received on 12 July 1995 should be "0745 hours"; is

22     that correct, Colonel?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I think that the previous one was at 0740,

24     this one was at 0745.  So probably just as long as it needs for the

25     telegram to go through the machine and then he would sign one and then

Page 29811

 1     the other one.  But, yes, that is time that's written there and you are

 2     correct.

 3        Q.   And, sir, it is the position of the Prosecution that Mr. Sekulic

 4     is still at Pribicevac receiving this material as addressed to him at

 5     Pribicevac at the time in question.  But I think we understand your

 6     explanation, it remains the same, we just differ on that, correct?

 7        A.   Sir, I can respond to some other things with "I think" or "I

 8     believe" or something like that, but specifically yesterday when we

 9     talked snipers, had you asked me, for example, if I ruled out any

10     possibility that some sniper hits were directed at the enclave during the

11     four years of the war, I would say -- well, my information is that I

12     didn't see it.  We usually didn't have such weapons.  But perhaps some

13     shot was fired.  I cannot say otherwise.  But as for the IKM

14     communications centre at Pribicevac and the dismantling of the IKM on the

15     11th and the meeting at the Bratunac command on the 11th in the evening,

16     do I not allow for any possibility that it did happen in some other way.

17     That's as much as I would like to say about this.

18        Q.   Okay, but like the sniper story, there are some more documents to

19     look at and maybe I will bring you around on that.  So keep your mind

20     open and let's keep going through the documents.  Here is another one.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter number 147.

22        Q.   And maybe the original will help you, I think we have it.

23     Interestingly, on this one we see Sekulic's familiar signature.  I think

24     you will agree with me on that, won't you?  I can show you the original

25     so it's a little clearer.  Is that -- that's Mr. Sekulic receiving this

Page 29812

 1     on 12 July at 1620 hours?

 2        A.   Yes, that's what it says.  Can you just allow me a little bit of

 3     time to read the contents of the telegram because that always helps me a

 4     lot.

 5        Q.   Please.  And just as background, we saw that just there was a

 6     one-liner in the previous one reporting that someone -- that the

 7     people -- I'm sorry.  People entered a minefield somewhere is the

 8     previous one, to give us factual background to this one.

 9        A.   Yes, previously, as I said, it does absolutely accord with the

10     development of the situation in the field.  I am prepared to comment on

11     this document.

12        Q.   Okay.  So you've already agreed with me this was received by

13     Oliver Sekulic, and you will agree with me that it was sent by the

14     command of the Drina Corps intelligence department on 12 July, correct?

15        A.   To be precise, the intelligence section.

16        Q.   Good.  And it's very urgent, for immediate delivery, meaning it

17     shouldn't be old news.  This should be new news, right?

18        A.   Yes.  These are fresh news that they received or news that were

19     Collated by the intelligence department from the listening groups.  I see

20     that Pavle Golic is the one who signed this document.  So he put together

21     all the information that arrived in the meantime and he is sending it out

22     to all of those he thought would require that information, that they

23     would need to know this information.

24        Q.   Okay.  But now on the topic we've been on, we see -- we don't see

25     anymore discussion of the Pribicevac forward command post.  We see a

Page 29813

 1     Drina Corps Bratunac forward command post.  And so now we have a

 2     Mr. Sekulic receiving a telegram that is addressed to the Bratunac

 3     forward command post, and it's our position that now Mr. Sekulic has

 4     moved.  He is now at Bratunac, and he is receiving this information as we

 5     see it before us, that the Drina Corps intelligence department knows

 6     precisely where Sekulic and his coms people are and they are sending it

 7     to him there.  Do you disagree?

 8        A.   So far you are asserting that the IKM at Pribicevac remained

 9     until the 12th, and now you're assuming that on the 12th it was in

10     Bratunac.  But, actually, this is what is involved.  Intelligence man

11     Pavle Golic does not need to know where Sekulic is.  He would need to

12     know where his superior is, Krstic.  So he is sending this to Krstic.  On

13     the 12th, he knew very well that we were no longer at Pribicevac, but he

14     also knew that General Krstic was in Bratunac, which is also correct.  I

15     am not disputing that.  It is the result of all of my testimony.  And he

16     is sending the telegram to Bratunac in the belief that the telegram would

17     be given to Krstic.

18             On the 12th, as I testified, I myself and my communications

19     people were already at the Krivace IKM in Zepa.  So I said there on the

20     afternoon hours of the 12th I had already arrived at Zepa, and this

21     telegram was received by Oliver Sekulic in Zepa at 1620 hours.  So this

22     is the only possibility that I would allow, that he received this

23     telegram at Zepa on the 12th of July at 1620 hours because that's when we

24     were in Zepa already and the communications centre had been already set

25     up.

Page 29814

 1        Q.   Okay, and you -- we see that 04/1-52 written up in the right-hand

 2     corner of the original, and you don't know what that means?

 3        A.   I don't know what it means, but I assume that it just could have

 4     been, if that's of any help, that some time later after the operation all

 5     the telegrams are redistributed.  And then when Oliver came back after

 6     the Zepa operation and he was placing all the telegrams in their proper

 7     places and those who were given the telegrams later, perhaps Kosoric,

 8     when they were handing over the telegrams, then because of the records

 9     the telegrams should be logged in for a record.  I guess this is what

10     this is about, but all I am talking about is the actual receipt of the

11     telegrams because this is something that I am well familiar with.

12        Q.   So you must recall that General Krstic, in his testimony, said

13     that there was this big meeting on the 11th of July that you've mentioned

14     and that the orders were received to go to Zepa the next day.  And surely

15     you remember that General Krstic testified he did go to Zepa on the 12th?

16        A.   I didn't have the opportunity to follow the General's testimony,

17     and I don't know what he said, but I know what I said and I know how it

18     was.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

20             MR. HAYNES:  Can we just be clear.  Are the Prosecution asserting

21     that what General Krstic said is the truth?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, I am not.  He was not telling the truth.

24             MR. HAYNES:  Then what's the purpose of the question?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's the position of the Prosecution that this

Page 29815

 1     witness is very familiar with General Krstic's accounts and that, as a

 2     Defence witness for Krstic, aligned his testimony with General Krstic's

 3     account.  And it appears that when Vinko Pandurevic interviewed Eileen

 4     Gilleece, his account was aligned on these issues.  And so that's why all

 5     of this, I am spending so much time with it, just so it's clear what the

 6     Prosecution's position is and where we are coming from.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  You can safely proceed along this line,

 9     Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I think the question's been asked and

11     answered and --

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes.  What I mean to say is that if you have

13     further questions on this business in this area, you may safely put them

14     to the witness.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I hadn't intended to

16     go back in time anymore, but I think that that should do it.  I can

17     always provide the Court we with any background or any -- the testimony

18     related to General Krstic if that would be helpful.  All right.  It may

19     become more relevant down the road.

20        Q.   Let's -- let me catch my breath and see where we are.  All right.

21     Now, let's go to another document, 65 ter 148.  And let me give you the

22     typed version of that.  This is a long one from General Tolimir, and I am

23     not so interested in the content.  And I think you will agree with me

24     that it's from the Drina Corps intelligence section to the Main Staff

25     intelligence and security and to the intelligence administration, the

Page 29816

 1     Drina Corps IKM, General Krstic personally, the Drina Corps IKM Bratunac,

 2     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic [sic], personally.

 3             Now, this one, we don't have Mr. Sekulic on.  We don't -- I think

 4     we don't have him.  And I just for completeness wanted to show the Court

 5     and yourself these other telegrams that went to various IKMs.  The one

 6     that says "Drina Corps IKM Pribicevac," actually, it says "Pribicevac."

 7     So we can conclude that -- or can we conclude -- what, if anything, can

 8     we conclude about that?  This is addressed to Krstic at Pribicevac on the

 9     12th, and we see that stamps on this thing, and the 2210 hours.  It's a

10     little hard to say if it's received or processed but ...

11        A.   This first page, is it completely authentic as regards this

12     telegram?  I would like to have an original -- I mean, the original,

13     because it's copied.  I am trying to find my way here.  Do you happen to

14     have the original perhaps, or, if you say that this is an authentic copy,

15     then I have no reason to not believe you.  I would just like an answer so

16     that I could make my comments.

17        Q.   I don't have an original.  We don't have originals of everything.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Haynes.

19             MR. HAYNES:  It's just line 14 of the transcript, Mr. McCloskey

20     asserted this document is addressed to Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic

21     personally.  I wonder if he could look at it again.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, if I've said that, that's a complete mistake.

23     I apologise.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Let's proceed.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I had the time to at least read

Page 29817

 1     some of the contents to see if that corresponds to that day, but it

 2     probably does.  What this is about is this:  This, to the first command,

 3     is the heading of the Drina Corps command intelligence section, strictly

 4     confidential, so on and so forth, and it's dated the 12th.  So the

 5     intelligence section of the Drina Corps very urgently is forwarding a

 6     telegram that it -- that was earlier received from the Main Staff of the

 7     army of Republika Srpska from the sector for intelligent questions.  So

 8     it is just forwarding an earlier received telegram in its entirety and

 9     it's just adding the heading, its own heading, that of the Drina Corps

10     command.  I think everyone can see that very well.

11             Unfortunately, the time is not stated here.  When the telegram

12     was drafted at the main staff, there is no date either.  But I assume

13     that this was also something that took place on the 12th of July.

14     Probably, the person who drafted this telegram at the intelligence

15     affairs sector at the Main Staff thought that at the time the IKM of the

16     Drina Corps was still at Pribicevac.  I am assuming that is why he put it

17     here, but the is not something that the Drina Corps command wrote.

18     Earlier on we discussed a document where the same intelligence section of

19     the Drina Corps forwarded a telegram to Bratunac, so they already know

20     that Krstic is in Bratunac.  So why would they on the 12th, in the

21     evening - you can see that it's 2210 hours - again return that telegram

22     to Pribicevac if in the morning some of the telegrams had been sent to

23     Bratunac.

24             So my answer, in the end, is that this is just a telegram that

25     was passed on from the Main Staff where somebody on the 12th at the

Page 29818

 1     intelligence sector in the main command still believed that the IKM was

 2     at Pribicevac and that's why they put it there, on the document.  This is

 3     what I am -- would like to say about this document.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   And I, to the extent that you have said that this is an

 6     indication that this sender, General Tolimir, doesn't really know where

 7     the coms centre is at this point, I agree with you, that the

 8     Prosecution's position that the coms centre in is in Bratunac and it's on

 9     its way to Krivace.  And this an example of what you have said before is

10     that the sender doesn't always know where the person is that he is

11     sending something to.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, let's go to 65 ter 149.

13        Q.   And let me give you that one.  That's another -- it's not a -- we

14     don't have Mr. Sekulic on this one, so this is similar to the last one.

15     It's another Tolimir document sent to Pribicevac, General Krstic, and

16     Bratunac, Colonel Popovic, just a little bit -- it looks like it's a

17     little bit later than the last one.  So I don't think I need to ask you

18     anymore questions on that, it's so similar to the last one, unless you

19     would like to make a comment on it.

20        A.   My opinion is the same as of the previous telegram.  It's a

21     document that came from the Main Staff to the command of the Drina Corps.

22     At the Drina Corps command they wanted to have this information or data

23     to the units, so the heading is placed at the top and it's forwarded to

24     the units as soon as possible, and I am very glad that you noticed that

25     the person sending out the documents would not necessarily need to know

Page 29819

 1     where the person to whom the document is addressed is exactly located.

 2     So what's important is that the communications centre is addressed and

 3     then whoever is there at the communications centre will find the person,

 4     and this is a key piece of information, actually.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to -- let's go to Zepa, let's go to Krivace.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter number 114.

 7        Q.   I think you have talked about this, I don't think you've -- I

 8     think you told us that you didn't see the -- this is the Zepa attack plan

 9     that General Krstic still did as Chief of Staff on the -- dated the 13th

10     of July.  You might want to just take a look at it.  I just want to call

11     our attention to it, because we now have a document that is from the

12     Drina Corps command, the Krivace forward command post.  I can't really

13     tell from the material where this came from.  I should know that, but I

14     don't.

15             But, do you recall sending out an attack plan to the various

16     units involved in it from the forward command post on the 13th of July?

17        A.   Me personally.

18        Q.   Well, do you recall whether it was done, not whether you

19     personally did it, but it should have been done according to this

20     document, right?  Do you recall it happening?  You were there.

21        A.   On the 13th in the evening, the Krivace IKM was visited by

22     Colonel Vicic.  He was an operative who took part in the Krivaja 95

23     operation, together with General Krstic.  On the 13th in the evening

24     he --

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  explain your answer, but if

Page 29820

 1     you give us the answer first, then we will know where you're going with

 2     your explanation.  So the question is, do you remember sending this

 3     document out or somebody from the coms unit sending it out?

 4        A.   The document, I don't recall if it was sent from the

 5     communications centre, but I remember that on the 13th in the evening,

 6     Colonel Vicic came to the Krivace IKM and he had these documents for the

 7     units that were taking part in the operation of Operation Stupcanica 95,

 8     whether any of these documents - and perhaps this order - could have been

 9     one of them went out to the units via the communications centre, is

10     something I really do not remember.

11        Q.   Can you tell from the type whether that -- that copy I gave you

12     is a teletype that would be sent or received, or could that be something

13     that was, you know, couriered around, like by Vicic or someone?

14        A.   The document was typed out.  These are not teletype letters in

15     either of the documents.  I assume that the units in the Stupcanica 95

16     operation received these documents by courier or Colonel Vicic went to

17     hand them over, the documents at the time when they were arriving from

18     the Srebrenica sector to the Zepa sector to their staging sectors.  I

19     think it very unlikely that such a long document would be sent out by

20     teleprinter.

21        Q.   Okay.  It's also possible you hadn't had the teleprinter working

22     or it hadn't been up yet, is that possible?

23        A.   I don't recall having any time intervals when the teleprinter was

24     not working.  We did have interference in transmission, but it

25     continuously operated as means of communication, the teletype.

Page 29821

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now I want to go to 65 ter 2670B.

 3        Q.   And I just want to focus for a second.  There is an -- well, I

 4     think we should get the original for this.  If we don't -- I'm sorry, we

 5     don't have that.  But we can see from this that it is from the -- the

 6     command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade to the various people,

 7     including the IKM Drina Corps, Krstic personally.  And it's about Zepa

 8     and UNPROFOR locations.

 9             And can we go to --

10             MR. JOSSE:  Sorry to interrupt, could we have a translation

11     reference, please I --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I will get there, but I don't want to

13     confuse the issue because we have another version of this that is in

14     English and we'll -- we'll get there, but I want him to look at the end

15     of this first, if I could.

16             MR. JOSSE:  I think we should just be given that number.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In a minute, if you could just wait ten seconds.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's -- I understand he may have his good reasons,

19     so ten seconds is not going to make a difference.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Can you -- just let me give you the photocopy of this, and if we

22     could show the bottom of the -- of this.  Is this Mr. Sekulic again?

23        A.   Yes, that's his signature.  I wish I had the original of the

24     document here, but undoubtedly this is his signature.

25        Q.   Okay.  And we have at 65 ter 2670, I believe it's the sent

Page 29822

 1     version of this document.  So it's in English and it should be identical.

 2     What we are looking at now is the received version of it.  I'm sorry I

 3     don't have the received version in English, but you will confirm for us

 4     that this was received by Mr. Sekulic at the Krivace forward command

 5     post, correct?

 6        A.   If this document corresponds to the original on the 14th of July,

 7     we were at Krivace, the document is addressed to General Krstic at the

 8     IKM.  And I have no reason to doubt that he received this at Krivace.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And we see in the handwriting corner, 04/ and now we see a

10     2.  Before, we had been seeing 04/1.  Do you know if there is a

11     significance?  Is it possible one is Pribicevac and 2 is Krivace?

12        A.   I told you that I don't know what -- whatever is written up here

13     means, but I don't think 1 refers to Krivace and 2 to another location,

14     but really I don't know what these numbers up here mean.  I assume they

15     are markings from a logbook when documents are issued.

16        Q.   Fair enough.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 4112, that's B.  And there is

18     an English at 4112, but we have the same issue.  The English is the -- I

19     believe the English is the received version, and I believe the B/C/S

20     4112B is the sent version because we see this word, I think it's

21     "predato."

22        Q.   Is that sent?

23        A.   To be quite honest, I don't see what it says down here.  I don't

24     think anyone in this courtroom can decipher this writing.  After the

25     first two letters, it looks as of if it's been internationally scribbled

Page 29823

 1     over or scratched out.  I really can't see what it says.

 2        Q.   Well, you will agree that the first two letters are "PR" and the

 3     last letter is "O"?

 4        A.   I only see on the screen when it blown up that the first two

 5     letters are "PR." I absolutely agree, but what rest of the word is, is it

 6     correct when you say "predato," "handed over," or "primljeno",

 7     "received," that, I can't see.  Because it's first time that I can see

 8     that something is internationally corrected on a document.  That's why I

 9     always like to see the original.  Even someone who speaks Serbian

10     perfectly cannot decipher this.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Focus on the handwritten part and try

12     to zoom in, please, as much as you can.  We can try again once more.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I dare assume it says "primljeno,"

14     "received," because we can see a do the on the "i" and the last two

15     letters could be "NO" which would mean that this is the usual way

16     cryptographers wrote that they had received something.  So it's probably

17     "primljeno" and not "predato."  But really, no one here in this courtroom

18     can decipher that.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Okay, but we can see that it is from the command of the Drina

22     Corps IKM Krivace, and we can see that it is to the GS VRS.  So if it's

23     being sent by Krivace to the VRS, this should be a sent, correct?

24        A.   There is a similar version of the writing of the cryptographer

25     Sekulic is something we discussed earlier today, and I explained this to

Page 29824

 1     you and you confirmed this with documents, and when he received a

 2     confirmation from the communications centre to whom he sent the telegram

 3     that they had successfully received it, then he would write "primljeno."

 4     What we have here is a specific situation, rather unusual, because the

 5     document was sent to the Main Staff and the command of the Drina Corps.

 6     And he -- well, the Main Staff was not commanding these operations, so he

 7     had to send it through the Drina Corps to the Main Staff indirectly,

 8     because to avoid a lower level units, bypassing their immediate superiors

 9     and trying to contact their second superiors, they did not have the

10     codes.  They could not send things to the Main Staff except through the

11     Drina Corps, that's what happened.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's go to another document.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 4095.  This is a document that appears to

14     be original from the Drina Corps collection.

15        Q.   I'd like to be able to give you the original, sir.  And I am sure

16     you will agree with me that this is the calendar for work days for your

17     unit.  And we can see that you're the first person on the list, a Major

18     Milenko Jevdjevic, and we can see that in the remarks section you went to

19     Pribicevac and Zepa.  And then if we go down the list we see that Momir

20     Bakmaz also went to Pribicevac and Zepa.  We also see that Oliver Sekulic

21     went to Pribicevac and Zepa.

22             Then we go to the next page, and we see Veljko Vukosavljevic went

23     to Pribicevac and Zepa, as did Mirko Plakalovic and Slavisa Ilic and

24     Milorad Stevic.  So that's you and six people, which is about what you

25     said, and I am told that the names that you gave us the other day, you

Page 29825

 1     got about four of them right, which is pretty good, considering.

 2             And my question is, sir, you can see better than anyone that

 3     somebody has handwritten in, I can't tell if it's pencil or pen from my

 4     copy, but a hard bar between the 12th and the 13th for all those people.

 5     And -- I'm sorry, I misread the last two, Slavisa Ilic and Milorad Stevic

 6     went to Pribicevac and Trnovo, and --  sorry, and then Stevic went to

 7     Pribicevac and Kocar.  And their Xs, those last two guys, stop at 12

 8     July.  And it looks like they get a couple of days off and they are off

 9     to Trnovo and Kocar.  So it just appears common sense that the guy that's

10     keeping track of attendance has noted that you guys are at Pribicevac

11     through the 12th and Zepa, from the 13th through the -- at least the

12     31st, except for the two guys that went to Trnovo and Kocar, they just

13     stop at the 12th.

14             So isn't this a pretty good indication that you were in

15     Pribicevac until the 12th, Bratunac area, and that from the 13th onward

16     you're at Zepa?

17        A.   No, I know the handwriting of the men who did these things in my

18     battalion, but to tell you the truth, I don't remember keeping this

19     document.  But I see it's been done with great precision, but what he had

20     in mind when he drew this dividing line at the 12th, we were in Vlasenica

21     on the 12th in the morning fixing our vehicle, replenishing our equipment

22     and our supplies.  And in the early afternoon of the 12th, we already set

23     out for Zepa, and for him, when he fills in something in the morning for

24     the next -- or for the next day, that was probably a kind of watershed

25     for him.  One terrain was ending, another was starting.  It's true that

Page 29826

 1     on the 12th in the morning we were in Vlasenica in the corps command, but

 2     on the 12th on the afternoon we left for Zepa, and maybe that's what

 3     prompted him to do this.

 4             If this line is something that he had in mind as something to

 5     orient himself by.  And I know which of these four men were with me

 6     yesterday, and you can also see there were two others, these were young

 7     soldiers and I don't remember their names.  But every document you show

 8     me corroborates what I said.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I don't think we need to argue about that, I don't know if

10     the Court wants to see the original and how it's marked.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  If that is possible, yes.  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Haynes.

13             MR. HAYNES:  I just wonder whether Mr. McCloskey can give us any

14     assistance as to what information the Prosecution have as to who marked

15     it?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, do you have that information?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   Do you know who marked it, sir?

19             MR. HAYNES:  I wasn't asking the witness.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  He can ask the witness.

21             MR. HAYNES:  Well, all right, then we take it Mr. McCloskey

22     doesn't know.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You're right, I don't know.

24             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you, that was all I was asking.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 29827

 1        Q.   Who do you think marked this?

 2        A.   I told you, I did not know myself that this kind of detailed

 3     document was kept, but I can tell whose handwriting this is.  Although,

 4     it's not clear to me because you see that there is a very gentle

 5     handwriting in these boxes.  I don't know who could have entered those

 6     marking between the 12th and the 13th, just as I don't know who wrote

 7     "primljeno" or "predato," "received" or "sent," but I do recognize the

 8     handwriting in this document, but I don't know about these markings

 9     between the 12th and the 13th.

10        Q.   So whose handwriting do you recognise?

11        A.   The handwriting belongs to Bosko Cacic.  He was a teacher of the

12     Serbian language in the Rogatica primary school and he was a staff

13     sergeant at the time.  I don't know if you need any other information

14     about him.  He is my uncle, my mother's brother, by the way.  And I kept

15     him with me in the command because he was a teacher and he kept records

16     very punctiliously, as you can see from this.

17        Q.   I agree.  We agree again.

18             Okay.  We are almost done with this topic.  Let's go to an

19     intercept, 65 ter 4087.  This is an intercept which is short, so you

20     should be able to see the whole thing up on the screen.  It's from the

21     Muslims, the fellows at the Konjuh site, dated 12 July.  And I want to

22     take you to the second one, it says "zone 2."  It is at frequency

23     255.850, which we know is the RRU-1.  And a participant Major Jevdjevic

24     and a switchboard.

25             And Jevdjevic says:  "From now on we are going to be at Badem,

Page 29828

 1     extension 385, and you can reach Badem through Zlatar."

 2             And then they say:  "Okay."

 3             Where is Badem?

 4        A.   Can you explain show me the original or a hard copy because this

 5     is very pale and I really can't read it.

 6        Q.   Sorry.  I have got some handwritten notes on the bottom, but I

 7     can give you that if it's okay.  Now, this is at 1850 hours.  Can you

 8     tell us where -- what -- what does Badem mean?

 9        A.   Badem is a word I am familiar with.  I don't know who it refers

10     to.  Zlatar is the Drina Corps command, that I was at 385, that's the

11     extension I described to you.  I don't deny that.  That was the extension

12     at Pribicevac and at Krivace, the forward command post there.  If the

13     date and time are correct, and if the conversation is correctly recorded,

14     but with what switchboard was I speaking?  Was it the one in the Drina

15     Corps, then that person would probably have entered it as Zlatar if it

16     was a switchboard in one of the brigades.  But it's correct I was at 385,

17     the time 1850, the 12th of July, I was at Krivace at the time.  Probably

18     I was informing someone that I had already arrived at Krivace and that

19     they could communicate with me at 385 by way of Zlatar.

20             I've read many of these intercepts, but this one contains very

21     little information.  So it's very difficult for me to find my way around

22     it.  I am probably telling someone that I am at 385, that's correct, and

23     that they can reach me through Zlatar.  So it was someone who needed to

24     be informed that I was at a completely different location and that is

25     consistent with my testimony that I was already at Krivace at that time

Page 29829

 1     and I am informing someone about that and that's all I can tell from this

 2     intercept.

 3        Q.   Now, it says in English:

 4             "From now on we are going to be at Badem."

 5             And from English we cannot quite tell if you're there at that

 6     time or you're going to be there.  Do you know from your language and

 7     from your memory of this, if any, were you at Badem when you said this or

 8     were you going to soon be there?

 9        A.   I don't know what the word "Badem" refers to.  I don't know what

10     code name it could be.

11        Q.   We'll get to that, but that's not my question.  My question is,

12     wherever this place is, do you remember whether you were there when you

13     said it or whether you were about to be there?  I mean, I don't know how

14     Serbian deals with this -- this -- sometimes tenses can be confused.

15        A.   Well, this could be the code name of some station or centre.  I

16     won't go into that.  But it jogs my memory.  It means from that point on,

17     that was your question, from that point in time I was discussing

18     something with someone, I was conversing with someone.  I don't know who,

19     the person listening, I don't know who, I am telling him that I am at a

20     new location.  He asked me where I am, I tell him at 385 and you can

21     reach me through Zlatar.  Why Badem appears here, I don't know.  I can't

22     link it up with everything else, but the other information I have just

23     told you, I can remember that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  How about letting him read that and then hear the

25     interpretation?

Page 29830

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's a good point.

 2        Q.   I am going to read this to you in English and see if you think

 3     this is a --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Instead of you reading it, have the witness read it.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Have the witness read it.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Can you just slowly read to us the intercept as you see it down

 7     there, starting with J?

 8        A.   "From now on, we shall be at Badem, at extension 385, and you can

 9     reach Badem through Zlatar."

10        Q.   Thank you.  I think that's clear, and so you know it's the

11     position of the Prosecution - and I dare say it's been proven beyond a

12     reasonable doubt in Krstic and in Blagojevic - and it's not contested

13     here, sir, that Badem is the code name for Bratunac.

14        A.   That's very possible.  It was the code name of one of the

15     brigades, and it's quite possible.

16        Q.   It's more than possible, sir.  And according to this intercept

17     you're at Bratunac on the 12th of July at 1850 hours.

18        A.   No.  Bratunac and the switchboard at Bratunac did not have

19     extension 385.  Extension 385 existed only at Pribicevac and Krivace.

20     Later on, at Godjenje.  It never worked in Bratunac.  That's why I said

21     that this information does not tell me -- well, there isn't enough data

22     here for me to be able to interpret this.  What is significant here is

23     that I am at extension 385, and you know very well where extension 385

24     was located, and you know very well that it never functioned in Bratunac

25     but exclusively at Pribicevac, Krivace, Godjenje, and finally at Zlovrh

Page 29831

 1     [as interpreted].  That's my response to you, and I am absolutely certain

 2     of it.

 3        Q.   Well, sir, I don't think we can -- any point in arguing over

 4     that --

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- unless Mr. Josse wants to.

 6             MR. JOSSE:  It's not really my battle.  It's not my battle, Your

 7     Honour, but it's simply Mr. McCloskey continually makes speeches of that

 8     sort.  I show a little bit of exasperation.  I apologise.  If he's got an

 9     answer to what the witness has just said, we suggest he should put it.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  He may -- yes, Mr. Haynes.

11             MR. HAYNES:  And I -- just on this document, it's be called an

12     intercept.  It is in fact a report.  I wonder if the Prosecution can give

13     us a time that the report was sent on the 12th of July.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, I would suggest you concentrate on what

15     Mr. Haynes has just raised, first.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am open for questions, Your Honour, at all

17     times.  But I think I would rather finish my cross-examination.  I will

18     try to look into the document as much as is possible.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's --

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's received from the BiH.  We believe it to

21     be reliable.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Could we see the notebook where this intercept

24     was noted?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you have the notebook available, if there is a

Page 29832

 1     notebook?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I did not -- did not find it in a notebook.

 3     Perhaps as --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's --

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- Mr. Haynes points out, it's a report --

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed, let's proceed.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   And looking at the top of -- the top of this, just, I don't want

 9     to get into it too much, but it's -- it says "Titanic, 90701, Atlanta," a

10     bunch of numbers.  These are things that are said orally over the radio,

11     right?

12        A.   I assume that the surveillance group at Konjuh recorded these

13     participants and conveyed this to their superior command and they then

14     informed someone about that in this report -- or, rather, they sent the

15     report on the 27th.  They were informing someone.  Probably you can see

16     that better at the end of the document.

17        Q.   My question is, I don't think there -- can you tell us -- it

18     sounds like this is coded traffic picked up by the Muslims, correct,

19     verbal coded traffic?

20        A.   Believe me, I am doing my very best to use all my knowledge and

21     experience from that period, but this looks like a very insignificant

22     intercept from which I can conclude nothing.  The participants are 1 and

23     2.  There are question marks next to them.  Then he says the conversation

24     was not recorded from its beginning --

25        Q.   Simple question, simple question, is this a coded oral

Page 29833

 1     communication?

 2        A.   It doesn't remind me of anything.  It doesn't remind me of

 3     anything from my experience.  It's not logical to me.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we get an indication who identified

 6     the witness as the collocatur in this conversation?

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Muslims army, as a start.  Let me see if I can go

 9     back to the document again.  I thought it was over.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Shall we have the break now and you try

11     to find this out if it is possible.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, yes, sir.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  25 minutes.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Colonel, we are almost through.  Just want to go to another topic

19     now, and hopefully pretty briefly, but this Court has heard evidence

20     about the little gathering that General Mladic had of the staff at the

21     Drina Corps on the evening of the 13th appointing Krstic commander.  You

22     surely heard about that, didn't you?

23        A.   We are talking about the 13th; is that right?

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   Yes, I said that in my previous testimony that I -- or I heard

Page 29834

 1     that information from another source, because I was at the IKM Krivace on

 2     that day.  I didn't receive the telegram that the command of the Drina

 3     Corps sent out to all the other units about this matter.

 4        Q.   Well, let me remind you what you said in Krstic on this point.

 5     And it's at page 7104.

 6             You were asked "Do you know what position General Krstic held in

 7     the command of Drina Corps to the 13th July, 1995?"

 8             And you said:  "I think that General Tolimir was the Chief of

 9     Staff at the corps."

10             And then you were asked:

11             "Do you have any knowledge as to when General Krstic became

12     commander of the Drina Corps?"

13             And you said:  "I know that this is an important question,

14     because in my preparations for my testimony here, I read the order of the

15     president of the Republika Srpska dated 13 July, appointing General

16     Krstic commander of the Drina Corps because it is only the president who

17     has the authority to appoint people to these strategic groupings and

18     positions."

19             We heard about that, but you go on:

20             "While we were at Zepa, whether it was over the media or in some

21     other way, anyway, we learned of the decree of the president of the

22     republic.  And I know that sometime around the 20th of July, or

23     thereabouts, there was a gathering of generals in the facility close to

24     Han Pijesak.  There were a number of generals from the Main Staff and the

25     commanders of the other corps, and also present were General Zivanovic

Page 29835

 1     and General Krstic.  And I know that the event was organised to observe

 2     the hand-over of duty by the commander of the Drina Corps.  And I know

 3     that after General Krstic's return to the forward command post in the

 4     village of Godjenje, some people congratulated him on his taking over of

 5     duty.  I wish to mention that in that period we were at a location which

 6     had very little information outside those related to combat operations in

 7     Zepa and around it, and General Krstic himself did not talk about his

 8     appointment with us other officers."

 9             You never mentioned in your testimony or your statement anything

10     about knowing about the little ceremony that happened on the evening of

11     the 13th.  So, sir, as you sit here today do you recall knowing about

12     that ceremony on the 13th or do you stand solely by what I just read?

13        A.   In the meantime, I heard that probably then, too, this

14     information secondhand, that General Mladic lined up some people at the

15     Drina Corps command and said that General Krstic would be the commander

16     of the corps.  This is what I heard secondhand.  I didn't have that

17     information myself, because at that time I was not in the village of

18     Krivace.

19        Q.   So did you have that information when you testified in Krstic,

20     because you didn't tell us about it in trial?  In fact, you said what you

21     just said, you didn't have much information.  You guys were dealing with

22     combat.

23        A.   Yes, yes.  Everything that I said at that time in the Krstic case

24     was my information that I had had up until then.

25        Q.   So despite the fact that General Mladic appointed Krstic

Page 29836

 1     commander on the 13th, you were not aware of it on the 14th, or 15th, or

 2     the 16th, or the 17th, or the 18th, or 19th?

 3        A.   I could have had the information only if I had the specific

 4     precise information, and I would have been able to form my opinion on the

 5     basis of the actual situation that was then.  So if I had testified about

 6     something the week before, as far as I was concerned, it was illogical to

 7     me, for example, that the new Chief of Staff, Colonel Andric, would lead

 8     his hundred soldiers throughout the entire Zepa operation and to have the

 9     corps commander, General Krstic, there as well, who was commanding the

10     Zepa operation.  And that at that time no one was at the Vlasenica

11     command post to lead the entire corps zone and to deal particularly with

12     the problems that the Zvornik Brigade was encountering at that time.

13             So my testimony at that time was based exclusively on the events

14     that were happening out in the field and the information about the actual

15     situation as it was.  In the meantime, and while preparing for testimony

16     in this trial, I really did see the document that the personnel officer

17     of the Drina Corps, on the 13th of July, sent to all the units informing

18     them about hand-over of duty.  But this document is something that I just

19     saw a few days ago.

20        Q.   Sir, it's the position of the Prosecution that, given the

21     appointment of General Krstic on the evening of 13 July, you as his coms

22     person, that would have been sending out information under his name as

23     commander and closely working with him, would have absolutely known that

24     he was commander on the 13th or 14th of July and that for you to say

25     anything otherwise is false.  What do you have to say about?

Page 29837

 1        A.   I never drafted the information that you are referring to,

 2     because the nature of my duties was such that I was executing the

 3     implementation of the communication plan that I would receive from the

 4     chief of communications.  I never drafted information or had access or an

 5     insight into information being drafted by Colonel Vicic or anyone else at

 6     the IKM and that was being forwarded to others.  So I was not aware about

 7     the contents at that time.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 118B.

10        Q.   And let me give you the -- let me give you the original of that.

11     And maybe I might have got the wrong 65 ter number.  But one out of five

12     hours isn't a bad record.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could focus on the screen on the B/C/S

14     original.  This is a copy of that personnel document that was -- we've

15     seen versions of it before.  This one in particular was sent out to your

16     communications battalion.

17        Q.   And I want you to focus on that handwriting up in the right-hand

18     corner.  Isn't that your handwriting?

19        A.   No.  [No interpretation].

20        Q.   I'm sorry.  We didn't get the interpretation for your last

21     comment, I don't think.

22        A.   This is not my handwriting.

23        Q.   But this is to your unit; is that correct?

24        A.   That is correct.  The document arrived at the communications

25     battalion on the 13th of July, and probably on the 14th of July it was

Page 29838

 1     logged in at the communications battalion in Vlasenica.  The handwriting

 2     is by the general affairs desk officer in the battalion, this is the

 3     staff sergeant Bosko Cacic, whom we mentioned, so it probably arrived at

 4     the battalion in Vlasenica on the 13th of July.  And then on the 14th he

 5     wrote that here, I mean, there's not that important.  I was at the

 6     Krivace IKM and I was focused on the Stupcanica 95 operation and the

 7     document did not end up on my hands.  So I came back from this operation

 8     later, about 20 days later, more or less, and I do not believe that 20

 9     days later I went through all the documents.  I mean, not that I don't

10     believe that I did that.  I know that I did not do that, i.e., look over

11     all the documents that in the meantime had arrived at my units which

12     usually normally functions in my absence.  And as I said, this document

13     never did reach the Krivace IKM, either.

14        Q.   I just asked you that because we have what we believe are copies

15     of your handwriting, and that very distinctive swirls and things looks

16     like you, but fair enough.  We won't argue over that.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to some last few intercepts.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, if you allow me,

19     sir, if you permit me, please.  This handwriting on the screen - and this

20     is why I laughed - is the handwriting of that uncle of mine, who probably

21     has the most beautiful Cyrillic handwriting that I ever saw.  I, as a

22     child, learned and practiced to write the way he wrote, and you -- I can

23     give you my notebooks and also his handwriting, his diaries and so on.

24     Many people actually compare the two of us, because I wanted to resemble

25     my uncle.  I respect him still today, and you probably looked at my

Page 29839

 1     handwriting and this specific letter "P," but actually this is his

 2     handwriting and his handwriting is much more beautiful than mine.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Let's go to 65 ter 1255C and D.  And I can

 4     give you a printed out copy of that.  It's the one that starts at 2050

 5     hours.  There is a couple of them on there, but the one I'm -- this is,

 6     just so you know, 18 July as a reference.  We won't spend much time with

 7     this, but it's -- it's between Krstic, they assume it's Krstic, and an X.

 8             And we've heard that your nickname is Jevdjo and --

 9        A.   Jevdjo.

10        Q.   I'm sorry, I didn't see that little cross in the D, Jevdjo.  And

11     what I want to ask you about is it looks like Krstic is asking if you're

12     around somewhere, and X says:

13             "He is coming down there, too."

14             And Krstic says:  "Good, I have to see the man, the KZ."  We know

15     that's cryptographic protection.  He calls the KZ man an MF.

16             And then says:

17             "I guess we will finally be able to talk to each other.  The

18     other one is broken."

19             So did you have some broken KZ protection problems around 18 July

20     that you remember?

21        A.   I'm -- we are talking now about this second intercept, right, the

22     other one, which is on the lower half of the page?

23        Q.   Right.

24        A.   Just let me read the conversation and then I may be able to

25     understand something because whoever was intercepting this was assuming

Page 29840

 1     that one of the participants was Krstic, and he marked the other one as

 2     unknown.  He marked him as "X."  But I still don't see my name anywhere,

 3     but just let me read the conversation, please.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I don't think your name is anywhere.  It's just talking

 5     about crypto-protection and they think it's Krstic at the command and

 6     he's got problems, and perhaps you recall that.  If not, we can go on.

 7        A.   Oh, yes, I remember the situation when Mr. Harmon, the

 8     Prosecutor, asked me how many times I went from the forward command post

 9     at Zepa to Vlasenica, and I told him I went there once.  And he asked me

10     when that was.  And I said, more or less the time I needed to take a bath

11     and run some errands concerning the unit.  He asked me precisely when

12     that was, and I said maybe it was about ten days of rest.  But now I see

13     it was on the 18th.

14             And, yes, I remember this conversation -- or, rather, I remember

15     not this conversation but these activities.  So I assume that the

16     conversation is authentic.  Can you please put your question to me now, I

17     apologise.

18        Q.   Do you remember the KZ equipment not working so they had to bring

19     in the KZ man to fix it, and now you will finally be able to talk

20     protected?  When I say "you," I mean the VRS.

21        A.   Yes.  Well, first, I conclude what whoever was intercepting this

22     conversation, well, he was wrong.  This is not a conversation between

23     Krstic and someone else, because it certainly wasn't Krstic who was

24     engaged in this discussion.  It shows -- it says here that he should look

25     at this KZ, so it's probably not Krstic, whoever was intercepting this

Page 29841

 1     switched things around.  We had those cryptographic protection devices in

 2     reserve.  And I don't think that there's a shred of evidence so far that

 3     there was a conversation between Krstic and officers subordinate to him

 4     in Krivaja 95 and Stupcanica 95 which was intercepted.  If this device

 5     was out of order, then everyone in the network would get only a hissing

 6     sound, and that would be a signal that the device was out of order and we

 7     would immediately intervene and replace it.  And maybe this happened just

 8     once, but -- among the participants, but we did have reserve devices at

 9     the forward command post so as to be able to intervene, and that's all I

10     can say about this.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 1295A and 1295B.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, while we are

14     waiting for that document, I was just looking at the document that was

15     left on the screen before the break concerning that intercept in which

16     the participants were not identified.  But in that conversation where I

17     am informing someone that we were at Badem at extension 385, I think that

18     that report and the date when this -- if we had the precise date when

19     this conversation was intercepted then we would know precisely when the

20     communications centre at Pribicevac ceased to exist because he said "At

21     1900 hours, the wavelength ceased to exist," and that was exactly when I

22     switched off my equipment at Pribicevac at 1900 hours.  I think that this

23     report was drawn up the previous day.

24             I apologise for taking up your time, but if we knew exactly when

25     this conversation was intercepted, it would be completely clear to you

Page 29842

 1     that the communications centre at the forward command post ceased to

 2     exist at 1900 hours because it says that in that intercept and it's quite

 3     logical that I told someone I was going towards Bratunac, down there, and

 4     it would be a very good thing.  It would be very important as far as what

 5     you are saying goes if we had this piece of information.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Let's go to 1295A, 1295B.  I think we have

 7     got it up there.

 8        Q.   This is a short conversation where the Palma, which we know is

 9     Zvornik, is calling Zlatar and asked if Jevdjevic is on the line, and

10     according to this, Jevdjevic says "yes."

11             Palma says:  "Hello, Mr. Jevdjevic, Commander Pandurevic was

12     looking for you," and he asks why the chief up there had been looking for

13     him.  This is dated 21 July, by the way.

14             And then Jevdjevic says:  "Only to ask what it's like there."

15             And then Palma says:  "Jevdjevic, the commander is returning the

16     Krajina men, everything is all right, we repelled today's attacks and are

17     working as planned."

18             Jevdjevic says:  "All right, tell him I personally said hello."

19             Palma says:  "Everything is engaged, is anything else necessary?"

20             Jevdjevic says:  "No."

21             Palma says:  "All right.  The commander says hello and have a

22     nice day."

23             This appears to be to us that Krstic was looking for Pandurevic,

24     Pandurevic gets back him and asks why Krstic, the boss, the chief, was

25     looking for him.  And then Palma reports that the commander -- Pandurevic

Page 29843

 1     is returning the Krajina men who were in his zone and that you say to say

 2     hello to Pandurevic and then it ends.  Is that about right?

 3        A.   I don't remember that conversation, but I allow that it's very

 4     possible.  Considering the conversation, my knowledge of the then

 5     situation, I allow that it's possible, but I don't really remember this

 6     conversation.  I was talking to someone in the command of the Zvornik

 7     Brigade if that's correct.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at another one.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 26th July, 65 ter 1353 A in the English and

10     C in the B/C/S.  This is a conversation between Major Jevdjevic and

11     Vinko.  And C is under seal.

12        Q.   I can give you a hard copy if that's easier to read.  It's the

13     middle one starting at 0807, 0807 hours.  This just is a simple

14     conversation.  It appears Colonel Pandurevic is -- he asked early on:

15             "Are they going to ask me to go there?"

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

17             MR. HAYNES:  There are two different intercepts on the screen.

18     The translation doesn't correspond.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, page 2 in the B/C/S where I mentioned the

20     time.

21        Q.   And the Vinko who I am interpreting to be Vinko Pandurevic,

22     correct me if you think I am wrong, asks a few lines down:

23             "Are they going to ask me to go there?"

24             26 July, it sounds like Pandurevic is naturally wondering if he's

25     going to be called to go to Zepa.  And later on he says he's been

Page 29844

 1     thinking of sending Jovovic or Legenda down there.  Do you have any

 2     memory of that?

 3        A.   I remember parts of this conversation if it was intercepted in

 4     its entirety that's possible.  I remember some parts of it.  The

 5     conversation resembles the usual sort of conversation I would have then,

 6     a logical conversation between General Pandurevic and myself.  The

 7     situation reflects what I knew at that time, that is that negotiations

 8     were underway, that the guns had been silent for two days, that there was

 9     probably an agreement that civilians and soldiers alike should be

10     evacuated from Zepa.  I remember that that had been agreed on, and the

11     rest of the conversation is probably something that I need not doubt.

12     Although, some things I find unclear, but as a whole this intercept seems

13     familiar to me.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, the end of July were you still in the Zepa operation,

15     like 29, 30 July?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you remember when members of the Zepa Brigade were going

18     across the Drina over to the Serbian side in large numbers?

19        A.   I assume that you said Zepa Brigade, I received the

20     interpretation that they were members of the Zvornik Brigade who were

21     crossing the Drina river.

22        Q.   No.  That's one thing we don't have here.  Yes, I meant the

23     Muslim Brigade, the Muslim Zepa Brigade.

24        A.   We had this information at the IKM literally during the last two

25     days of my stay there, at the IKM, meaning my stay there.  I recall the

Page 29845

 1     events after the evacuation of the civilian population when the Zepa

 2     Brigade, for certain reasons, did not wish to evacuate - although I know

 3     agreements were reached about this - they probably assessed pursuant to

 4     an order or something.  So -- and then from the Zepa section they began

 5     to withdraw towards the mountain range between Zepa and Srebrenica

 6     towards terrain called Zepska Koliba, and the trig point of Zlovrh, and

 7     then our units embarked upon a purely military action called "Chasing the

 8     enemy."  And then I assume that this action lasted for about three days,

 9     the 27th, 28th, and the 29th, when our units then came to those

10     elevations of the Zepska Koliba and Zlovrh, where the Zepa brigade put up

11     its last-ditch resistance.  And during that process I recall very well

12     Colonel Trivic, the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade was wounded.

13             After that we moved the IKM to the Zlovrh sector itself, for a

14     while the situation was unclear since this is a vast wooded area through

15     which the Zepa Brigade and the units from Srebrenica -- towards

16     Srebrenica, Olovo, and Kladanj, communicated frequently.  We didn't have

17     clear information about where they were actually going to.  One of the --

18     among the information was one that the group wanted to break through

19     Radavana Kopusa [phoen], Cina [phoen], Han Pogled, and Olovo, and then we

20     received information that the main part of the Zepa Brigade had descended

21     through the Crni Potok sector and that they had crossed the river Drina

22     in an improvised manner and crossed over to the west bank which is where

23     they surrendered to the border outpost in Serbia.

24             This is the information which I generally have now told you,

25     according to what I can remember.

Page 29846

 1        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's look at an intercept about -- it's dated 29

 2     July.  It's 65 ter 4088.  And I've got a simple copy I can give to you.

 3     It's printed out.  29 July, 1995.  And it's at 255 frequency, so I guess

 4     we are talking RRU-1.

 5             "Participants, Major Jevdjevic-1?"  And they are telling us it's

 6     not from the beginning, so they interrupt this conversation, and they

 7     catch you at the last -- your last thing is:

 8             "To aim across the river."

 9             And then one seems to repeat:

10             "To aim across the river?"

11             And Jevdjevic says:  "Yes, yes."

12             And then 1 says:  "Hello, Rajko, did you understand him, to aim

13     across the river?"

14             And Jevdjevic says:  "That's it, that's it."

15             1 says:  "At which targets?"

16             And Jevdjevic says:  "The ones he can see.

17             And 1 says:  "Which he can see?"

18             And Jevdjevic says:  "Yes, the ones he can see well."

19             Number 1 says:  "So to aim from the side at targets he can see."

20             Jevdjevic says:  "Across the river."

21             1 says" "across the river?  Okay."

22             Jevdjevic says:  "And he is on the right side, isn't he?"

23             Number 1 says:  "Yes."

24             Jevdjevic says:  "Fine, thanks, bye."

25             And 1 says:  "Just tell me, who am I talking to."

Page 29847

 1             And Jevdjevic says:  "Major Jevdjevic."

 2             And 1 says:  "Okay."

 3             So from this it sounds like you're telling someone from the right

 4     side of the Drina to fire at targets they can see; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And is it those -- the Muslim army that we are talking about that

 7     were trying to get across the river?

 8        A.   Who are you thinking of, specifically?

 9        Q.   The Zepa Brigade guys that you just told us about, that you were

10     chasing them and they were taking off trying to get away across the

11     river?

12        A.   "Chasing" is a military term for an operation when the enemy is

13     pulling out of the encirclement, and this is how all the units refer to

14     this particular action.  This is not persecution or hunting, it's just

15     the same military term as other military terms.  This intercept is not

16     something that was monitored from the beginning.  I don't know who the

17     other participant is.  I don't know who Rajko is.  I do remember the

18     action.

19             We, on the right-hand side of the Drina, opposite from Zepa, is

20     the municipality of Visegrad, the territory of Republika Srpska.  And we

21     always had a battalion stationed there, a battalion of the Visegrad

22     Brigade, on the right bank of the river.  I think we talked about this

23     yesterday, the left and the right bank.  Probably you wanted to put that

24     question to me then, and I told you that for the most part of the river

25     Drina, the right bank is Serbia and Republika Srpska is on the left bank.

Page 29848

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   I have not completed.  The interpreter has just warned me to slow

 3     down because of the interpretation.

 4             I think that you recall that yesterday I mentioned that on the

 5     right-hand side or the right bank of the river is the territory of

 6     Republika Srpska with three municipalities, Rudo, Cajnice, and Visegrad.

 7     On the right-hand side of the Drina, opposite from Zepa, we had stationed

 8     a battalion of the Visegrad Brigade which was permanently holding those

 9     positions, and then from the opposite bank they were able to see better

10     targets of the Zepa Brigade on the left bank which was trying to pull out

11     of our range as we were chasing it.  They were able to view better and

12     fire at those targets from the right bank, which is Republika Srpska, to

13     the left bank, which is also Republika Srpska.

14             And this conversation probably refers to the fact that I, since

15     we did not have direct communication with that unit via an intermediary,

16     I was conveying Krstic's orders or whoever's orders they were, to look at

17     and be able to see targets better from the other side of the Drina and to

18     aim at the left bank of the Drina.

19        Q.   So you're passing on the order of General Krstic to fire at the

20     enemy?

21        A.   Yes, because at the time we had information that a unit of the

22     Zepa Brigade was pulling out through that canyon, through Serbia -- to

23     Serbia, and then we were not able to see them well because they were at a

24     lower point, in a depression, as compared to us.  But people on the other

25     side of the canyon were able to see them better.  Our unit on the other

Page 29849

 1     side of the canyon, and then probably General Krstic, probably conveyed

 2     to me, via communications that I should transmit this information to the

 3     unit on the right bank, that they should fire at targets on the left bank

 4     of the river.  This is my interpretation of the conversation.  It's a

 5     legitimate military act and quite understandable in the relevant period.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Just a last question.  You were asked about General Gvero

 7     briefly and a specific date was mentioned, 23 July.  I want to show you

 8     what is a summary of an intercept that we received from the Croatian

 9     government on that point and get your comment on it.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you do that we hear what Mr. Josse has

11     to say.

12             MR. JOSSE:  Well, Your Honour, I am in the Court's hands.  I am

13     going to object to this.  We had an advanced warning in the list that

14     this particular document was going to be referred to.  I wish to make a

15     submission now.  It will take a few minutes, I am bound to say.  I'll

16     make it now, because I am wary of what Your Honour had said at page

17     28756, some weeks ago, that really an objection needed to be taken at the

18     point a particular exhibit was being referred to and relied upon.

19             It's a technical objection, but as I say, it will take me a few

20     minutes to develop.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  A few minutes, what do you mean?

22             MR. JOSSE:  These minutes, I suspect.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead, we've got five.

24             MR. JOSSE:  Perhaps five.  Again, I am in the Court's hands.

25     It's technical.  I don't think it really matters if the witness was to

Page 29850

 1     hear this.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 3             MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, the position is this.  As my learned

 4     friend has just said, this particular intercept comes from a Croatian

 5     collection, and if I could start by referring the Court to what

 6     Mr. McCloskey said about these sort of intercepts on the 4th of December,

 7     at page 29253 of the transcript.  My learned friend Madam Fauveau was

 8     cross-examining -- or it may have been examining in chief, to be price,

 9     and Mr. McCloskey says:

10             "I just wanted to make a point.  The intercepts Ms. Fauveau is

11     using are, my understanding, is that they are from the Croatian forces.

12     I don't know a whole lot about them.  Frankly, if she can just identify

13     them as from the Croatian forces as each one that's clear on the record,

14     I don't think we are going to have an objection from them.  But I think

15     it's important to be able to distinguish between these and the ones that

16     we know so much about."

17             So I accept that there Mr. McCloskey was allowing my learned

18     friend to use the document, but he was advising caution.  What we say is

19     this:  The Prosecution used a great many intercepts in the course of its

20     case.  In relation to those intercepts, the operators were all called to

21     give evidence.  They were called in part because the Prosecution

22     initially sought to exhibit the documents through those particular

23     intercept operators.  I probably needn't go into this in any detail, the

24     Court is very familiar with this, under Rule 92.  And then in the 12th --

25     on the 12th of September, 2006, this Trial Chamber decided that those

Page 29851

 1     intercept operators who gave evidence about intercepts that went to the

 2     acts and conduct of an accused person all had to be called.

 3             Really, it's our submission that it would be an absurd and

 4     perverse result in this case if the Prosecution could now use an

 5     intercept that goes to an act and conduct, and this one undoubtedly does.

 6     The Chamber may not have seen it yet, but I am sure my learned friend

 7     will concede this goes to acts and conduct because it relates to

 8     something my client is alleged to have done or places he's alleged to

 9     have been on the 23rd of July, if the operator is not called.  It would

10     be absolutely, as I say, absurd and perverse result.

11             So it's a technical objection, I accept, but it's an important

12     technical objection bearing in mind how intercept evidence has been

13     presented hitherto in this particular case.  And Mr. McCloskey said,

14     rightfully, that one needs to be cautious in relation to these Croatian

15     intercepts s.  We say particular caution needs to be given.  He may not

16     have taken that point.  That was his decision.  We do take this point in

17     relation to this intercept.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Josse.  Do you wish to comment,

19     Mr. McCloskey, briefly.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, I did not object to the use

21     of those intercepts.  That is because I felt they had a sufficient

22     foundation for the Court to be able to gain some meaning from them.  And

23     I know more about them now than I did then, but this is cross-examination

24     and we didn't deal with the specific date of 23 July and General Gvero;

25     they did.  They brought that up with this witness, and I'm sorry I can't

Page 29852

 1     remember all the details on why they did that.  But they were clearly

 2     making a point.  Something to do with Gvero is concerned about the

 3     western front, that everybody is going to the western front, which we

 4     know is the Krajina.

 5             This is a point they specifically made through I think

 6     probably ab -- was it an intercept that was or was not in evidence.  So

 7     they have made that point.  That point is sitting there.  Now, I have an

 8     intercept that responds to that particular day.  It's a particular

 9     intercept that has to do with Gvero on that very particular day, and I

10     would like to have a chance to question this witness about it.  We chose

11     not to use this in our case in chief.  We haven't been holding this back.

12     It would never have seen the light of day had they not mentioned this

13     particular date, and then we went and, lo and behold, here is an

14     intercept that helps get us to the truth, I believe.  Shouldn't we be

15     able to see it?  Can't I respond?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, very briefly.

17             MR. JOSSE:  Save the truth point, I accept everything my learned

18     friend has said.  It simply doesn't answer the objection.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes.

20             MR. JOSSE:  He has not given one argument, in our submission, as

21     to why I am wrong.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We will come back to you tomorrow

23     morning.  We will continue at 9.00.

24             How much longer do you think you will be cross-examining the

25     witness?

Page 29853

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is the last intercept.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  All right.  But still, I assume there will

 3     be a redirect, so we have to adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

 4             Do you have an idea the approximate length of your redirect,

 5     Mr. Petrusic?

 6             MR. PETRUSIC:  [Interpretation] I won't need a lot of time,

 7     Mr. President.  If I need to specify the time, perhaps it would be about

 8     15 minutes.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Mr. Haynes?

10             MR. HAYNES:  I will be rather longer than that.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  You will be rather long.

12             MR. HAYNES:  Yes.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  And Mr. Zivanovic.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  15 minutes, approximately.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So we will have most of the day again

16     tomorrow.  Thank you.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18                           1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the

19                           17th day of December, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.