1 Tuesday, 10 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, ma'am. All the accused are
11 present. Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey alone. From the Defence teams I
12 only notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic and the Beara team.
13 So I take it there are no preliminaries? So Mr. Haynes, you may
14 proceed. Thank you.
15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
17 MR. HAYNES: Good morning to you, too.
18 WITNESS: VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examination by Mr. Haynes [Continued]
21 Q. General Pandurevic, we left off yesterday afternoon on the 23rd
22 of July when you heard -- had a meeting with Dragan Obrenovic following a
23 briefing of the commanders at the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade. I
24 just want to finish the events of the 23rd of July before retracing our
25 steps to deal with an issue we were talking about just prior to that.
1 MR. HAYNES: So if we can start, please, by having a look at the
2 regular combat report for the 23rd of July, which is P341.
3 Q. And we can see that under paragraph 1 is the usual description of
4 the combat situation which reads:
5 "At 2100 hours last night the Turks launched and infantry attack
6 against the defence of the 3rd Battalion."
7 And at 0045:
8 "The enemy launched a strong infantry attack from behind the 2nd
9 Infantry Company of the 4th Battalion."
10 Using that as an aid-memoire, what was the general combat
11 situation on the 23rd of July in the zone of the brigade?
12 A. I think that this report demonstrates the situation quite
13 clearly. The first item talks about enemy activity, and that they were
14 pronounced. The second item talks about the activities of the Zvornik
15 Brigade in response to enemy activity. There were captured, also
17 Q. You've drawn me on to the next point which is if we look at
18 paragraph 3 of the report and in particular the last sentence we see it
20 "20 enemy soldiers were killed today, and seven captured."
21 Were you still, as it were, spending your days at the command in
22 the barracks on the 23rd of July?
23 A. Yes, during the day there was a briefing and I spent most of the
24 day at the command. First I just want to say that the information about
25 the number of enemy soldiers who were killed might be exaggerated because
1 we couldn't have known the exact number, but usually these were round
3 Q. But in relation to those that were captured, is a regular combat
4 report the only document in which the capture of enemy soldiers was
5 recorded by the brigade, or was it recorded somewhere else?
6 A. I think that the information was noted in the duty operations
7 log-book of the barracks, and that the duty officers also mentioned the
8 information in his log-book. Possibly something was also written down in
9 the operations diary.
10 Q. Well, we'll come on to that in just a minute.
11 MR. HAYNES: If we can go to the second page of this document,
12 there's just one more aspect of it I'd like your comments on, which is
13 paragraph 8.
14 Q. It reads:
15 "Requests: As requested by command organs. Requests
16 relating to fuel and ammunition of all calibres should be considered
17 particularly seriously. The MUP should be urgently requested for a unit
18 to use in our brigade's area of responsibility by tomorrow, the 24th of
19 July at 0600 hours at the latest."
20 Why was it necessary to address that request to corps command?
21 A. I think that in the course of the 18th the MUP units, which were
22 under my command, were leaving the Baljkovica area, and then the units of
23 the public security centre in Zvornik were engaged under Vasic's command
24 to carry out certain tasks of searching the terrain. This request
25 probably refer to a coordination of the activities so that we would know
1 who was doing what.
2 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Now, I just want to conclude that day by
3 looking at the duty officers' notebook, P377. If Ms. Stewart would be
4 good enough to provide you again with the hard copy, you can look at
5 pages 795 and 796. Those of us looking at e-court need to look at page
6 177 to start off with. Thank you.
7 Q. Now, a fairly straightforward point, if we look at the bottom of
8 that page, General Pandurevic, we can see the familiar telephone number,
9 589-991 just before an entry at 2025. Does that help to refresh your
10 memory as to what time on the 23rd of July you left the barracks?
11 A. It was my habit that when I was in the brigade, any time I was
12 outside of the brigade somewhere in Zvornik, I would leave the number
13 where I would be, where I could be found. This is the number in Celopek
14 where I spent my free time. And if this duty officer wrote down this in
15 the proper sequence of events, then this would be the time of around 2000
17 Q. And would that be the time about which you left on that evening?
18 A. Yes, that would be the time. Yes.
19 MR. HAYNES: Can we just go over the page, please. Your 796, our
21 Q. And it's the entry just under the underlined portion about
22 "Strbac, wake up at 0430," which says "chief's driver Vule at 0430
23 hours." Who was Vule, and to what does this appear to relate?
24 A. I can this is the driver of the Chief of Staff, Dragan Obrenovic.
25 I don't know his last name, this Vule, but what's written down here is
1 that the operations officer was waking him up at 0430 hours.
2 Q. Do you have a recollection now of whether Obrenovic remained at
3 the barracks after you left on the 23rd of July, 1995?
4 A. I know that I issued an assignment to Obrenovic to be in
5 connection with the corps command and that pursuant to our request to
6 begin resolving the question of the prisoners and their transport to
7 Batkovic as soon as possible, to be in communication with Colonel Cerovic
8 and as soon as he received instructions from him he was to start
9 organising the transport of the prisoners of war to Batkovic. As I was
10 leaving the barracks -- I mean, I left the barracks and from what I
11 recall he stayed at the command, which doesn't mean that occasionally he
12 could have been at some other place.
13 Q. But prior to your departure on the 23rd of July, were you aware
14 of any prisoners being transported away from the barracks?
15 A. Not during the day, but in the morning, at the morning briefing I
16 found out that the first group of prisoners had gone to Batkovic.
17 Q. Thank you. And let's just, as it were, retrace our steps and
18 deal --
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, I just wonder whether the witness has
20 any comment on the entry which appears just before that.
21 MR. HAYNES: The 031-854-389?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Who was that "I."
23 MR. HAYNES:
24 Q. Who is the duty officer on the evening of the 23rd of July?
25 A. I said yesterday that Ljubo Bojanovic was the duty officer and
1 this entry that His Honour is speaking about is written with a different
2 handwriting, so it could have been that it was the assistant duty
3 operations officer of Ljubo Bojanovic.
4 Q. Perhaps most importantly, is it your comment?
5 A. I cannot give any specific comment on this. I just listened to
6 the testimony of Ljubo Bojanovic, and in the Jokic and Blagojevic case he
7 said -- or he gave his comments on this entry. I could repeat it but
8 this is not my direct knowledge.
9 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether you were to be reported by the duty
10 operations officer later on, or you read these entries later on?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've never had this
12 notebook in my hands before. I've never read it. The duty operations
13 officer would report to me the most important details in view of this
14 note that has to do with Skelani, and something that is quite outside of
15 the scope and responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. I didn't know about
16 this entry before.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MR. HAYNES:
19 Q. And where were you when this entry was written, and this call was
21 A. This entry could have been made during the night sometime or
22 later, perhaps early in the morning, if you follow the sequence of
23 entries and the times that they were made. At the time I was away, I was
24 in Celopek.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, we were discussing -- we were going back to
1 discuss the question of prisoners, and what happened to them at the
2 Zvornik Brigade, and so on and so forth.
3 We'll recall yesterday that you told us about the requests you
4 made for arrangements to be made for the prisoner that is you were taking
5 that began on the 20th of July, and proceeded through to the 23rd of
6 July. Were you taking prisoners every day throughout that period of
8 A. I think that there were prisoners. I'm not sure if this happened
9 every day, but you can see that from the records and regular reports.
10 From what I can remember, I think that on the 21st of July, there were no
11 prisoners because fighting was going on at that time with the 2nd Corps
12 forces who were attacking from the front, so there was no sweeping of the
13 terrain. I think that there were prisoners captured in the other days.
14 Q. And when did prisoners begin to be transported out of the
16 A. Starting from the 23rd of July.
17 Q. And where were they taken to?
18 A. To Batkovic.
19 Q. Now, within the brigade, what records were kept of the presence
20 of prisoners of war?
21 A. We have the numbers here, the number of prisoners captured every
22 day, but during the transport and their handover to the Batkovic
23 collection centre, this had to be done according to a list, and I don't
24 know where these lists are anymore because each prisoner who was
25 transferred to Batkovic is recorded as such.
1 Q. Probably my fault, General Pandurevic; probably not a very good
2 question. But when prisoners arrived at the brigade, in what document
3 was the number of prisoners noted?
4 A. Since the barracks duty operations officer was at the very
5 entrance to the barracks, he would be the one to record the presence, the
6 entry, the exit of all the persons, especially persons who did not belong
7 to the brigade. So he would record the number of prisoners of war who
8 would be brought to the barracks in the course of the day.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. HAYNES: And let's just have a look at some examples of that.
11 Can we have a look at P383, please. This document is not translated, so
12 we are going have to look at page 16 firstly.
13 Q. And we are going to need your help, General Pandurevic. And I
14 wonder if you could -- I don't think we have the -- yes. I wonder if you
15 could start reading the sentence which appears at the fifth bullet point
16 on that page and read it sufficiently slowly and clearly for the
17 interpreters to follow, would you, General Pandurevic, please.
18 A. First of all I would like to say that this is an entry of the
19 barracks duty officer for the 22nd -- 23rd July of 1995. And it contains
20 the usual information, and the sentence on which you insist states:
21 "During the afternoon and the night, about 30 enemy soldiers
22 were brought to the barracks."
23 The duty officer was Zoran Begovic, he was a doctor head of the
24 medical section.
25 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. And can we now go to page 18 in the same
1 document, the barracks duty officers' log-book.
2 Q. And this is the entry for the 24th and the 25th of July, I think
3 we can all see that from the top. And I'd like you to read the sentences
4 beginning five lines from the bottom, and if you could again identify who
5 the barracks duty officer was who made the entry?
6 A. Goran Bogdanovic was the duty officer, and it says:
7 "During the shift, 29 Muslim soldiers were captured and
8 brought to the barracks by the military police of the eastern corps. 20
9 Muslim soldiers were brought in."
10 Q. Now, that of course is an internal record. We've already seen
11 several daily combat reports, but was it the practice of the brigade to
12 report to corps command the existence of the number of prisoners on a
13 daily basis?
14 A. Yes. This would be contained in the regular combat reports.
15 MR. HAYNES: Let's complete the picture there then, please. Can
16 we have a look at P342.
17 Q. This is the regular combat report for the 24th of July, and for
18 present purposes I'm only interested in the last sentence of paragraph 3
19 which reads:
20 "Fourteen enemy soldiers have been captured today."
21 Was that, as it were, standard practice to include that
23 A. Yes, the number was entered that the operations officer knew of
24 by the time he sent the report. Sometimes after the report was sent some
25 more were brought in.
1 Q. And was there any reason in July of 1995 in particular after the
2 16th of July of 1995 that you thought you shouldn't be reporting that to
3 corps command?
4 A. There was no reason for that. My position was that every soldier
5 who surrendered had to be sent to the prisoner of war collection centre
6 and the corps command should be made aware of that.
7 Q. This might seem an obvious question given your answer to the last
8 one, but did you see any reason why you shouldn't be taking prisoners of
9 war during this period?
10 A. We had to search the ground and everybody who was captured during
11 the search was brought to the barracks. There was no reason to treat
12 soldiers contrary to the Geneva Conventions and regulations on the
13 application of the Laws of War.
14 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. We'll move on to P344, the daily combat
15 report for the 25th of July.
16 Q. And again, it's the last sentence of paragraph 3 of that report:
17 "Twenty-five enemy soldiers were captured. All were duty
18 transferred to the Batkovici-Bijeljina collection centre."
19 Can you help us just by glancing at the second page of that
20 report as to which duty officer wrote that report?
21 A. Could this be scrolled down just a little, I need to inspect the
22 initials on this page. I believe that the initials that I see here are
23 MG, standing for Mihajlo Galic.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. HAYNES: And lastly, P346, the daily combat report for the
1 26th of July.
2 Q. And just to confound us, the information about prisoners is not
3 in paragraph 3 of this report, but paragraph 2, it's the fourth bullet
5 "The reconnaissance group of the 1st Birac Brigade combed the
6 terrain in the area of Kozluk; 34 members of the BH Army were captured
7 and sent to the prison in Batkovici."
8 Again, if you can help us please by going to page 2 of this
9 report and giving us the name, if you can, of the duty officer who wrote
10 that report?
11 A. The initials are JP. You would have to give me a minute to think
12 who that might be.
13 Q. It's probably not that important, Mr. Pandurevic, but
14 certainly --
15 A. If I were to look at the list of the brigade command, that would
16 jog my memory. I can't remember.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you.
18 So the position throughout this period was the arrival of
19 prisoners was recorded in the barracks duty officers' notebook. The
20 figures in the regular combat report seem to be rather more accurate,
21 does the duty officer then go and count them before he writes his report
22 to corps command?
23 A. I don't believe that the duty officer went to count head. He
24 probably obtained information from the barracks duty officer or from the
25 individuals who had brought the prisoners in.
1 Q. Thank you. And -- but in any event a record is made in a daily
2 combat report and is sent to corps command on a daily basis of the number
3 of prisoners taken; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And from about the 20th of July, you began beseeching corps
6 command to make arrangements for you to exchange all these prisoners you
7 were taking; is that right?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. Now, as you've already hinted at, their reception at the
10 collection centre at Batkovici is also recorded.
11 MR. HAYNES: And we are going to have a look now to a document
12 that is not a Zvornik Brigade document. It's 7D712, and I think this
13 document better not be broadcast because it contains names.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. If there is any objection to the
15 blocking of the broadcast, please speak up. Thank you.
16 MR. HAYNES:
17 Q. Now, this is a document with a number of pages and flicking
18 through it on e-court will be time consuming, so I'm going to hand you a
19 hard copy with the assistance of Eva. Thank you very much.
20 Now, you've told us that prisoners began to leave the Zvornik
21 Brigade on the 23rd of July. I know you've been through this document.
22 How many prisoners were transferred from the Zvornik Brigade to Batkovici
23 between the 23rd and the 26th of July of 1995?
24 A. There are several columns here in the list in addition to the
25 name, the family name, and the particulars of every individual. There's
1 also the date of their arrival in Batkovic collection centre, and as far
2 as I can remember between 23rd and 26th of July, between 140 and 150
3 prisoners of war were transferred there after having been captured by the
4 Zvornik Brigade.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I am just being informed, Mr. Haynes, and
6 Mr. McCloskey and the rest, that this document actually was tendered by
7 the Prosecution, and it is not confidential.
8 MR. HAYNES: Then, in that case it can be broadcast. And for
9 those who want to see it, it might be better that they have a look at
10 page 2 so they can see what General Pandurevic is referring to. I had it
11 in my mind, I didn't check that there were some names on this that caused
12 it to be used under seal, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes. Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think Mr. Thayer used it with Novica Simic --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- just to recall everyone.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we can proceed then, thank you.
18 MR. HAYNES:
19 Q. And so far as you are aware those 140 or 150 prisoners, how were
20 they treated when they were at the Zvornik Brigade?
21 A. My order was to treat them correctly, fairly. We have been faced
22 with different statements here. Some said that they were treated fairly,
23 the others said that the treatment was not fair. I don't have a clear
24 insight. I don't have a precise information as to how each of the
25 soldiers treated them in the woods when capturing them. However, when
1 they arrived in the barracks, they received fair treatment.
2 Q. And on average how long would a prisoner have remained at the
3 Zvornik Brigade before being transferred to the collection centre at
5 A. I believe that the -- those who came first stayed the longest
6 until the moment the operation to transfer them to Batkovici was
7 launched, and then those who were captured during the day, as soon as
8 there was a truck-load, they would be transported to Batkovic on the same
10 Q. Now, against that background, I think I just ought to put to you
11 a couple of paragraphs of the indictment.
12 There were apparently 11 wounded prisoner who came from a
13 hospital in Milici at the command of the Zvornik Brigade at some stage.
14 What did you know about the existence of those persons?
15 A. I learned about their existence when I returned from the IKM. I
16 can't tell you exactly when that was, whether that was on the 18th or the
17 19th, because I don't remember. However, as soon as I received the
18 information, as soon as I learned that there were such people there, I
19 was not really clear why the wounded had to be accommodated in the
20 infirmary of the Zvornik Brigade together with the soldiers of the
21 Zvornik Brigade who had been wounded, and I personally ordered Dragan
22 Obrenovic to inspect them and to look after their safety and that that
23 order should be conveyed to the medical personnel. My order was to treat
24 the enemy wounded as any other wounded person would be treated.
25 Q. And so far as you're aware, on what date did they leave the
1 infirmary of the Zvornik Brigade?
2 A. I insisted with Colonel Cerovic that the wounded should also be
3 transferred from the Zvornik Brigade. At the morning briefing on the
4 24th, Dragan Obrenovic reported that together with the other prisoners
5 they were also transported to the Batkovic collection centre.
6 Q. Is that what you were talking to Mr. Cerovic about in the
7 intercepted communication we looked at yesterday?
8 A. Yes, amongst other things.
9 Q. General Pandurevic, did you order or authorise the execution of
10 those wounded prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade infirmary?
11 A. No, neither.
12 Q. Did you order or authorise the execution of any prisoners who
13 were held in the barracks at the Zvornik Brigade during the latter part
14 of July of 1995?
15 A. That would have been crazy on my part. It would have been crazy
16 to capture somebody, to bring him to the barracks, and then execute him.
17 I never issued an order to that effect. And as far as I know, nobody was
18 allowed or permitted to execute a prisoner of war.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, after the 15th of July, did you ever participate
20 in further combat operations towards Zepa?
21 A. I did not participate in any operations. However, I did spend
22 sometime in the Zepa area after the 15th. That happened on two
23 occasions, if I remember it correctly.
24 Q. Well, let's take them one by one. After --
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, since you are moving away from the
1 topic, if I can raise the -- raise a point that I wanted to yesterday but
2 I couldn't due to the time constraint. Can I draw your attention to
3 yesterday's page 31154. You put the witness the question:
4 "What sort of mood were you in when you had this discussion with
6 And in the course of answering this question, Mr. Pandurevic
7 said, I quote:
8 "It was our conclusion to the effect that where is this leading
9 us, what sort of a brain could have decided something like that."
10 And then he said:
11 "But according to the information that we had, we knew that the
12 order had come from General Mladic."
13 I'm interested to know what kind of information he had and how he
14 came to the conclusion that it had come from General Mladic. I would
15 like the witness to expand on this, please.
16 MR. HAYNES: I'm not going to interfere in that question. He can
17 deal with it.
18 JUDGE KWON: I think Mr. Pandurevic can answer the question
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I received initial
21 information from Dragan Obrenovic and he had received that information on
22 the 14th in the evening when he was at the command of the Zvornik Brigade
23 and when he was sending that interim combat report. And even earlier
24 than that, Nikolic had told him in a conversation that those prisoners
25 were being brought in pursuant to an order of the commander of the Main
1 Staff. I did not have any direct information. The commander of the Main
2 Staff never issued such an order to me.
3 However, I assumed that no such thing could have been done or the
4 transport of prisoners carried out from one territory to another
5 territory with the engagement of the security organs and the security
6 escorts without that. I can have my doubts about the information that
7 the order came from Mladic or not. However, in light of the subsequent
8 events and the fact that no measures were taken, I'm still convinced that
9 the order did indeed come from him.
10 JUDGE KWON: I'll leave it there. Thank you.
11 MR. HAYNES:
12 Q. So after the 15th of July, when was the first time that you went
13 back to the Zepa area?
14 A. I believe that I returned around the 27th of July.
15 Q. Well, let's see if we can use something to refresh your memory.
16 MR. HAYNES: Can we have a look, please, at 7D91.
17 Q. Now, this is a form of document with which we are all very
18 familiar now. This is a vehicle work log and it relates to a vehicle we
19 are pretty familiar with, the Nissan T-2175, the car in which you were
20 driven around.
21 MR. HAYNES: Can we have a look at the fourth page of this
22 document, please.
23 Q. And we see there on the 27th of July that the car is recorded as
24 going from Zvornik to Vlasenica. Is that where its journey ended on the
25 27th of July?
1 MR. HAYNES: I'm told that the page in B/C/S is page 3, not page
2 4 as it is in the English. Apologise for that.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that was not the final
4 destination on that day. I proceeded to IKM Godjenje from Vlasenica, and
5 there I met with General Krstic.
6 MR. HAYNES:
7 Q. You told us that you had for some time wanted to speak to him
8 face to face. Why did you not go before the 27th of July?
9 A. Well, on the 23rd, it was certain that some elements of the
10 Zvornik Brigade that had previously been engaged in Zepa area would be
11 sent back, and that's why you see the note here for the 23rd of July,
12 Zvornik-Han Pijesak-Zepa. This was noted by the driver because I thought
13 that I would indeed be going to Zepa on that. However, everything was
14 put on hold. We were informed to stand by and not to move, so we
15 remained on standby for several days. I had several conversations with
16 Cerovic, Jevdjevic, and Krstic, I believe. And finally I left without
17 any units on my own on the 27th of July.
18 Q. Thank you. Well, we'll just, as it were, have a look at a few
19 extraneous documents to illustrate what you say.
20 MR. HAYNES: Can we have a look at 7D602, please. A in the
21 English, B in B/C/S. Thank you. Yes, it's been pointed out to me that
22 this in fact is an exhibit under a different number. It's P1194.
23 Q. And this is an intercept from the 23rd of July between Zlatar
24 corps command and Palma and Zvornik Brigade.
25 "Give me Palma."
3 "Just a moment."
4 "Is that Palma?"
5 "Give me 01."
6 Who would 01 at Palma be?
7 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure we are looking at that.
8 MR. HAYNES: We need A and B. Thank you.
9 Q. The numeral 01, who would that refer to at Zlatar and who would
10 that refer to at Palma?
11 A. Zlatar 1 was General Krstic, and Palma 1 would be me.
12 JUDGE KWON: And Mr. Haynes, did you say that the date of this
13 intercept is 23rd of July?
14 MR. HAYNES: I did.
15 Q. And what can we deduce is going on from this intercepted
16 communication, General Pandurevic?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Our records indicate this intercept is the 16th.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, will you verify that, please, Mr. Haynes?
20 MR. HAYNES: Well, we'll move on --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Because it's tied up to a previous question --
22 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- which specifically referred to the same day.
24 MR. HAYNES: Yes, we'll move on. We'll go to 7D604 which is
25 probably a --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
2 MR. HAYNES:
3 Q. Now, this intercept is, I believe, the 25th of July, and it's
4 between Cerovic, about whom we've heard a good deal in the last few days,
5 and a general. You were in contact with Cerovic during this period, did
6 you receive any information or instruction from him as to what state of
7 readiness you should be in in relation to any particular operation?
8 A. Yes, I was in contact with Cerovic, and it had to do with my
9 return to the Zepa area. And then from the 23rd on he was telling me
10 every day to be ready, to wait for the order that Krstic was supposed
11 today issue, and this is also what this conversation is about.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. HAYNES: Can we go to P1353. A in the English, and B in the
15 Q. And I'm going to hand you a hard copy, General Pandurevic,
16 because in the B/C/S it starts at the bottom of the first page and goes
17 over two more pages, so it will be easier for you to leaf through a hard
18 copy. This is an intercept from 8.00 in the morning of the 26th of July.
19 It's a fairly long intercept. Once you've got the text of it perhaps you
20 can tell us whether you recall speaking to Major Jevdevic on the morning
21 of the 26th of July and what you spoke about?
22 A. Yes, I do remember this conversation. I was asking about whether
23 I would be requested to return to Zepa. I asked Jevdevic what the
24 situation was, and he told me that probably they were not going to ask me
25 to go back because he said the guns have been silent for the second day
1 now, meaning that the fighting had stopped and that preparations were
2 underway, or already the evacuation was underway in Zepa. And he said
3 that I was requested only where the guns were active, meaning only where
4 there was combat.
5 MR. HAYNES: And just to complete that particular picture, can we
6 see 7D609, please.
7 Q. Again an intercept from the 26th of July at 2320 in the evening.
8 A conversation apparently between the duty operations officer at Palma
9 and Zlatar, and you, but it begins curiously by:
10 "Vinko is not in at the moment. Who wants to talk to him?
12 "Hello. Just a moment, just a moment.
14 "Chief, how are you?
15 "Well, not bad. I feel relieved just talking to you. Listen.
16 "Yes, I'm listening.
17 "Uran 01 told me that you should be here, in, at this where we
18 were located previously.
19 "Please repeat.
20 "At 0800 in the morning."
21 Do you recall having a conversation in the late evening of the
22 26th of July with somebody from the corps command?
23 A. I think that there is another part of this conversation. If I
24 can look at it, please, so that I could have a complete picture.
25 Q. By all means.
1 A. Yes, I do remember this conversation, and it demonstrates that I
2 was supposed to report to the IKM where Krstic was the following day.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, what was the principal purpose of your visit to
4 General Krstic on the 27th of July?
5 A. The main reason was to talk to him about my interim combat
6 reports of the 15th, 16th, and the 18th. And the second reason was that
7 I think that by that time already an order had arrived to send a unit
8 from the Drina Corps to the 2nd Krajina Corps and that the Zvornik
9 Brigade was obliged to allocate forces for that purpose, the equivalent
10 of a battalion, so this was another thing that I wanted to speak to him
12 Q. Did you go there alone?
13 A. Yes, I went with a driver. Probably somebody was also escorting
14 me and myself.
15 Q. And where precisely did you go to?
16 A. I remember that I met Krstic at the forward command post in the
17 village of Godjenje, and that in the course of the day I stopped off in
18 Vlasenica to see Zvonko Bajagic [Realtime transcript read in error
19 "Blagojevic"]. I don't know whether this was before I saw Krstic or
20 afterwards. I'm not sure about that. I can't remember.
21 Q. Well, we can have a look at the another document. You've got the
22 duty officers' notebook, if you go to page 885 where you are, and we look
23 at page 187 in e-court.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, just to clear up, he went to see a
1 person named Bajagic not Blagojevic.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that correct, Mr. Pandurevic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 MR. HAYNES:
5 Q. This is the first page of the duty operations officers' notebook
6 for the 27th of July, and we see three lines up from the bottom
7 "Commander Bajagic in Vlasenica," is that the name as it should be
8 recorded in the transcript, B-a-j-a-g-i-c?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall what time you got to Godjenje?
11 A. I think it was early in the morning that I left the command. How
12 early, I'm not sure. But by noon I had probably finished my conversation
13 with General Krstic.
14 Q. Was anybody else at the forward command post on the 27th of July?
15 A. As far as I can remember, there was a tent there. The commander
16 of the headquarters administration of the Drina Corps, I think his name
17 was Amovic was there. And then Jevdjevic who was chief of the
18 communications, some communications operators, maybe messengers, General
19 Krstic's driver. I don't know any of their names.
20 Q. Did you and Krstic talk alone?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was that within the tent or did you go somewhere else?
23 A. It was a nice day from what I can remember. There was some sort
24 of fence in front of the tent, perhaps we were standing next to that
25 fence and we were talking. I think that's where it was. First, General
1 Krstic asked me about the situation in the Zvornik Brigade, about the
2 situation in the area of defence, and then I addressed him.
3 Q. What did you say?
4 A. I told him, Probably you received my interim combat reports,
5 which I sent you, and in which I mentioned what I mention in them. And I
6 asked him if he had any more specific and broader information than the
7 one I stated in the combat reports relating to the prisoners of war who
8 were executed in the Zvornik area.
9 Q. And what did he say?
10 A. He said something to the effect that, Hey Vinko, I know something
11 that shouldn't have happened happened. I don't even know myself how it
12 all started but I do know what happened, and I know who was included in
13 that and who did that, but this is something that should not be your
14 concern. I am going to deal with this problem in the appropriate way.
15 I para-phrased what he told me then.
16 Q. How long did you talk about this for?
17 A. It wasn't a long conversation. Maybe we talked for ten or 15
19 Q. Did you discuss your orders in relation to Krajina?
20 A. Since the situation was critical in the western part of Republika
21 Srpska in the 2nd Krajina Corps section, he said that he knew what the
22 situation was in the Zvornik Brigade in terms of its effort and the
23 stretching of the men in the fighting, but that I had to find a solution
24 and allocate the forces that were being requested of me and send them to
25 the sector of the Krajina Corps.
1 Q. And was that part of the conversation by the fence, or did that
2 discussion take part somewhere else?
3 A. Both the conversations took place at the same location.
4 Q. And can you help us now as to which came first. Did you start
5 talking about your interim combat reports, or did you start talking about
6 your orders to go to the Krajina?
7 A. Since General Krstic first asked me about the situation in the
8 area of the brigade and the situation in the brigade, I then touched upon
9 my interim combat reports and then this Krajina topic was the last one in
10 the sequence.
11 Q. What was going on in the Zepa area on the 27th of July?
12 A. I'm sure that there were no combat actions. I think that the
13 evacuation of the civilian population was underway, but I didn't have
14 specific information about the manner in which this was being done.
15 Q. Did any unit of the Zvornik Brigade return to Zepa after the 15th
16 of July?
17 A. On the 27th of July after my conversation with General Krstic, it
18 seemed as if no units would be required to go from the Zvornik Brigade,
19 but as far as I can remember later a number of the Podrinje Detachment of
20 the special forces left to the Zepa broader sector. I think this was on
21 the 31st.
22 Q. And do you know how long they stayed there?
23 A. I think that a number of them returned the following day, that a
24 number stayed for another two days because then on the 3rd of August the
25 order was received to form another Drina Brigade that would be sent to
1 the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps so that the engagement of those forces
2 of the Podrinje Detachment in the Zepa area was not required. They went,
3 just stayed there for a short period of time, and then returned.
4 MR. HAYNES: All right. Well, I just want to sweep up a couple
5 of documents before the break. Can we have a look at P379. This is the
6 later duty operations officers' log-book. It's an entry for the 2nd of
7 August. And for present purposes, we'll just look at it in e-court,
8 General Pandurevic. That's page 19 in both languages.
9 Q. This is the 2nd of August, and I'm interested in you helping us
10 with what the entry at 2046 refers to.
11 A. Legenda checked in after coming back from Zepa, and that one of
12 his platoons remained up there. This means that the commander of the
13 Podrinje Detachment, Milan Jolovic, came back from Zepa at this time and
14 that he informed the duty officer that a platoon of his unit stayed in
15 the Zepa area.
16 Q. And how long did it stay after Legenda got back?
17 A. I believe that the platoon came back the following day because
18 the entire Podrinje Detachment became part of the 2nd Drina Brigade
19 headed by me, and we went to the area of the Krajina Corps. The order on
20 its establishment was issued on the 3rd of August.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. HAYNES: And just to conclude this period, P349. Daily
23 combat report for the 27th of July.
24 Q. And it's the third bullet point under paragraph 2 I'm interested
25 in where it says:
1 "A unit is being prepared, as ordered by the KDK Drina Corps
2 command. Order strictly confidential number 33/95 dated the 26th of
3 July, 1995.
4 "In order for it to be able to set out on its assignment, the
5 unit needs to be supplied with:"
6 And fuel and ammunition is thereafter listed.
7 What order does that refer to and what unit?
8 A. This is an order of the Drina Corps command to send a brigade to
9 the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps. The Zvornik Brigade was supposed to
10 provide one battalion, and I actually discussed this with General Krstic
11 when we met on the 27th. As far as I can remember, the commander of that
12 battalion was Ljubo Bojanovic, because I also met them later at one time
13 in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps.
14 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. And if that's convenient, we'll take a
16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break now of 25 minutes duration.
17 Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
21 MR. HAYNES: General Pandurevic, forgive me, we are going to
22 retrace our steps a little bit. Not because it helps the narrative, but
23 really just because I don't like people to think I've made a mistake. I
24 did mean to call into e-court 7D602, and it does have a P number. It was
25 the P number I was erroneously informed of. The P number is the P1314 A
1 in the English and B in the B/C/S. So if we could have that put into
2 e-court, please.
3 Q. And this now is an intercept of the 23rd of July timed at about
4 1132 in the morning. Apparently between General Krstic and Colonel
5 Cerovic, and really it's the bottom portion of it that we are concerned
6 with where General Krstic apparently says to Cerovic:
7 "Go on, call Vinko.
9 "And if it's possible, he should personally come here to see me.
10 "Yes, sir.
11 "If it's possible, if the situation permits.
13 "Not tomorrow, but today.
16 Did you receive a message on the 23rd of July that General Krstic
17 wanted to see you?
18 A. I most probably did and here he kind of made it conditional if
19 possible that I should go and see him on that day. I didn't come across
20 any conversation with me discussing this topic with Cerovic, but probably
21 there was a conversation between Cerovic and myself, and that that day I
22 didn't go. The briefing was held at the brigade command that day, and
23 that day was the day that I signed the regular combat report, meaning
24 that I was there that whole day.
25 MR. HAYNES: Let's just have a look at P341 again, please. And
1 we need to look at the bottom of the document in Serbian. The next page.
2 Q. This is a document that's not actually type signed, it's got a
3 signature on it. Whose signature is that?
4 A. This is my signature. My initials.
5 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. And just to complete the history, can we
6 have a look, please, at 7D607.
7 Q. Again, Colonel Cerovic and General Krstic at 25 past 5.00 in the
8 afternoon of the 26th of July:
9 "Did you call Vinko?"
10 "Excuse me?"
11 "Did you call ... ?"
13 "You did."
14 "Milenko says he will be up there at 0800 in the morning."
15 This appears to follow on from the other intercept -- intercept
16 we've looked at between you and Jevdjevic. Did you tell Jevdjevic that
17 you would attend General Krstic at 8.00 on the 27th of July?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Very well. We'll leave that behind us now finally.
20 MR. HAYNES: Can we now have in e-court, please, 7D729.
21 Q. This is another marching order, and you've explained to us what
22 the effect of such a document is. What unit did you give a marching
23 order to on the 28th of July?
24 A. As you can see from the document, pursuant to an order of the
25 Drina Corps of the 26th of July, the Zvornik Brigade formed from among
1 its ranks one light infantry battalion which became part of the Drina
2 Brigade force, and this is an order for the battalion to march. The
3 battalion that was going to become a part of the Drina Brigade of the
4 Drina Corps. And it was written on the 26th of July, and it was being
5 sent to the sector of operation of the Drina Corps.
6 Q. And is this the marching order that relates to the unit you told
7 us about before the break commanded by Ljubo Bojanovic?
8 A. I can see at the beginning that the commander of the first
9 echelon was Captain Maric. As far as I can recall Ljubo Bojanovic was
10 the commander of the battalion because I met him at a facility at Crni
11 Vrh in the Glamoc sector. Perhaps his name is also mentioned here, but I
12 don't see the entire document.
13 MR. HAYNES: Well, we'll move on from that, please, to P351.
14 Q. On the 28th of July, you felt the need to send an interim combat
15 report. Why?
16 A. We were informing the corps command that we had acted pursuant to
17 their order, that we had executed the order, and we cited the MTS and the
18 number of people involved.
19 Q. And we see that was 220. Is that the number of soldiers that you
21 A. That's what is says here. Probably that was the number, yes.
22 MR. HAYNES: And just one more piece in the jigsaw before we pull
23 this all together. P124, please.
24 Q. This is a Drina Corps order preparing units of the corps for full
25 combat readiness, described as very urgent. What is this document about
1 and what situation militarily does it reflect?
2 A. Here the commander of the Drina Corps issues an order based on
3 the order of the Main Staff on raising the level of combat morale, or, as
4 it says here, literally putting corps units into full combat readiness.
5 Now, this full combat readiness implies the immediate readiness of the
6 units for the combat operations. In the last paragraph this is
7 corroborated by the fact that the president of the republic also
8 proclaimed a state of war in Republika Srpska. That mere fact made the
9 situation serious.
10 Q. What was going on at this time that created such a serious
12 A. The situation was critical in the western part of Republika
13 Srpska at that moment. That situation had been caused by the attacks of
14 the Croatian army against Republika Srpska Krajina during Operation
15 Storm. Those attacks and the negative effects on the Army of Republika
16 Srpska Krajina spilled over to Republika Srpska.
17 Q. What were you doing from the 29th of July onwards?
18 A. I acted in keeping with the order that we have on the screen at
19 the moment.
20 Q. And what did that mean you were engaged in day-to-day?
21 A. I was supposed to tour the battalions and inspect them. I was
22 supposed to issue very clear tasks to the battalion commanders. And this
23 meant that new forces would be necessary from the Drina Corps to be
24 dispatched into the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. HAYNES: Can we now go to 7D615, please. Thank you.
2 Q. This is an order of the Drina Corps dated the 3rd of August
3 pursuant to an order of the Main Staff forming a brigade of which you
4 were the commander. When did you first learn that you were to be the
5 commander of a brigade to go to the Krajina?
6 A. I can't tell you exactly whether the meeting took place on the
7 3rd of August at the corps command or maybe it was on the 2nd. In any
8 case, it referred to the obligations of the brigades of the Drina Corps
9 to allocate men and form the 2nd Drina Brigade to be sent into the zone
10 of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps. But I remember that
11 initially Lieutenant-Colonel Radomir Furtula was appointed as its
12 commander, he had been commander of the 5th Podrinje Brigade.
13 However, when I arrived as the commander of the Zvornik Brigade,
14 I got a telephone call from Krstic who told me that Furtula had become
15 ill all of a sudden and that I would have to serve as the brigade
16 commander. Obviously I accepted the order and that's why it says in this
17 order that was to be appointed the brigade commander.
18 Q. And when did this order take effect?
19 A. It took effect on the day when it was issued, and it implied
20 launching all the activities with a view to establishing a brigade. As
21 you can see, this brigade was formed from the elements of all the
22 brigades of the Drina Corps and such units are most difficult for command
23 because they are very different, men are of different providences, of
24 different opinions and views, with different equipment and armament.
25 Such units are very difficult to use in combat and very difficult to
1 control and command.
2 Q. I just want to direct your attention to a couple of paragraphs of
3 this order. Can you have a look, please, at paragraph 1 sub-paragraph
4 (b). What does it mean "headquarters administration staff to be provided
5 by the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade"?
6 A. Every brigade has headquarters administration. This is a small
7 unit that serves the command, and the command of the Zvornik Brigade,
8 i.e., the Zvornik Brigade was supposed to establish the headquarters
9 administration for the new brigade and was also supposed to establish a
10 250-men strong battalion.
11 Q. What did you do between the 3rd and 7th of August of 1995?
12 A. Immediately after having received this order, I was duty-bound to
13 proceed accordingly. I was in constant communication with all the other
14 brigade commanders from the Drina Corps with a view to efficiently gather
15 all the men, materiel, technical equipment, and to establish first the
16 command and finally the entire brigade. In that sense, I started issuing
17 my first orders to that brigade.
18 Q. Where did you work from?
19 A. From my office from which I had commanded the Zvornik Brigade
20 previously which means that I didn't move. My office did not move. I
21 assumed my new duty, but I retained the same office and Dragan Obrenovic
22 took over from me, and he was in command of the Zvornik Brigade. He
23 performed his duties from his own office.
24 Q. From the moment of this order, what function did you have within
25 the Zvornik Brigade?
1 A. I was no longer the commander of the Zvornik Brigade. It was
2 never officially confirmed. I did not receive any orders to that effect
3 in writing, but the fact I was no longer the commander of the Zvornik
5 MR. HAYNES: And just before we pass from this document, can we
6 have a look at the last paragraph of it, which is page 2 I think in both
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see the document.
9 MR. HAYNES:
10 Q. I'm interested in paragraph 10:
11 "All other matters which are not regulated by this order, shall
12 be regulated by the commander of the newly-formed brigade."
13 What does that mean?
14 A. That means that I have to make sure that all the other issues
15 that regard the establishment of the brigade and its preparation for use
16 are to be regulated by myself.
17 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Can we now move on to 7D611, please.
18 Q. This is an order of yours dated the 3rd of August. Can you tell
19 us what effect this order had or what its purpose was?
20 A. I issued this order pursuant to the last paragraph of the
21 previous order of the corps commander, and I sent it to the commands of
22 all the corps brigades. It was not for me to order the commanders of the
23 other brigades. I just insisted on the implementation of all the things
24 that the corps commander wanted to do and institute all the other
25 elements that would enable the brigade to carry out the tasks given to it
1 by the corps command.
2 Q. We see at the foot of the document, which might be quite
3 difficult for you to read in the original, three time stamps: 1215,
4 1330, and 1750. Do you recall what time of day you issued this document?
5 A. The stamp is not legible and it's very difficult for me to detect
6 the initial time. But it is possible that it was 1750 when the document
7 was drafted and sent for encryption. The next time is 1730, that's when
8 it was processed by the encryptor, and last time, 1750, is the time when
9 the document arrived at the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade most probably.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Now, at the time that you were ordered to
11 command this brigade, was there any anticipated period that you would be
12 in command of that brigade?
13 A. I became the commander of the brigade on the 3rd of August, 1995,
14 as you can see in General Krstic's order. And on that same day, as you
15 can see, I was in full command of that brigade which was still under
17 Q. But how long did you think you would hold that position?
18 A. Based on previous practice, one would expect not to stay in such
19 a position long. Up to 15 days at the most. However, later on it turned
20 out that the brigade had spent over a month in the area of responsibility
21 of the 2nd Krajina Corps.
22 Q. Now, we looked at various military documents at the beginning of
23 your testimony, but if Dragan Obrenovic became acting commander of the
24 brigade from the 3rd of August, was there any automatic ascension to the
25 role of Chief of Staff from within the ranks of the other officers?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Could we first establish who, if
3 anyone, became acting commander of the brigade before we ask questions
4 about it.
5 MR. HAYNES: I think we already have, haven't we? He has given
6 volumes of evidence about that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. I think we can proceed.
8 Judge Kwon?
9 MR. HAYNES: I'll phrase the question another way.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But I think we can safely proceed in
11 any case, but if you can phrase it in another way, maybe that's better.
12 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
13 Q. Did the brigade formation provide for somebody automatically to
14 become Chief of Staff if the Chief of Staff was no longer fulfilling that
16 A. I'll start with the principle of the singleness of command and
17 unity of command. At the moment when I was appointed a commander of the
18 2nd Drina Brigade of the Drina Corps, somebody automatically had to take
19 over the command of the Zvornik Brigade. By establishment and pursuant
20 this had already been regulated. The Chief of Staff as the deputy
21 commander was the one who would assume that position, and Obrenovic was
22 that person.
23 It was possible for appointing a new person that would be
24 chair -- acting as Chief of Staff, but it was not mandatory. In this
25 particular situation, as far as I can remember, and I'm sure that General
1 Krstic had more information about the situation in the area of
2 responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps and how long I would be required
3 to stay there, and he decided to issue a new order after a few days. And
4 by that new order, he appointed Dragan Obrenovic as the acting commander
5 of the Zvornik Brigade.
6 I believe that he also put in that order that Milos Maksimovic
7 would be acting as the Chief of Staff of the Zvornik Brigade. This means
8 that General Krstic at that time, unlike General Zivanovic, honoured the
9 legal procedure, he complied with it and provided Obrenovic with all the
10 necessary papers that would entitle him to all the benefits when he acted
11 as commander.
12 Q. Well, thank you for that, but I think we need to look with a
13 little care at that document.
14 MR. HAYNES: And so we'll put into e-court please 5D452.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, this document is under seal I'm
17 MR. HAYNES: If it is, I'm very sorry for not spotting that. I
18 can't imagine why it is, but ...
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I haven't got a clue, but it is.
20 Let's not broadcast it.
21 MR. HAYNES: Okay.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, we have to be cautious.
23 MR. HAYNES:
24 Q. This is the order you're referring to. And firstly, can we note
25 the date of it, it's the 8th of August, so five days after you became
1 commander of the Drina Brigade. And it reads:
2 "Order as acting for the war time establishment of Chief of
3 Staff, at the same time deputy commander of the 1st Zvornik Infantry
4 Brigade, Milos Maksimovic, son of Cedo, artillery captain first class,
5 born on the 17th of January 1963. Currently chief of artillery in the
6 organ for the combat arms of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade of the
7 Drina Corps. The duty pursuant to this order is to be taken over on the
8 8th August 1995 until the return on duty of the formation chief of
9 brigade staff and will not be longer than six months. While acting as
10 above, he will not carry out his formation duty and the brigade command
11 will issue an order which will determine who will take on the duty of the
12 above named."
13 Then underneath it says:
14 "Statement of reasons."
15 What's the effect of this order?
16 A. General Krstic issued this order pursuant to the Law on the
17 Military. Dragan Obrenovic could not perform the duties of the Chief of
18 Staff since he had been appointed as acting commander. That's why
19 General Krstic decided to appoint Milos Maksimovic as acting Chief of
21 Since we are talking about an establishment position that is
22 usually taken by a lieutenant-colonel or colonel, Obrenovic cannot
23 regulate who would assume the position of the Chief of Staff. It has to
24 be the corps command to do that. The brigade commander either acting as
25 or formerly the brigade commander can regulate by an order the
1 appointment of officers to the positions occupied by majors or
3 MR. HAYNES: Very well. Let's move on to another document now,
4 please. 7D462.
5 Q. We have looked at this order together before, but just remind us
6 what this is and what you say the effect of it is?
7 A. As you can see, General Zivanovic corps commander is referring to
8 paragraph 4(c) of the order issued by the minister of defence of
9 Republika Srpska about the partisan authorities of officers. This order
10 says the corps commander has the right and is authorised to appoint
11 officers to establishment posts occupied by lieutenant-colonels or
12 colonels, and here he appoints Dragan Obrenovic as Chief of Staff and at
13 the same time deputy commander.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you. I just want to look with you now at the
15 situation between the 3rd and the 7th of August when, as you've told us,
16 you were sitting in the office of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade
17 commanding the Drina Brigade.
18 MR. HAYNES: And can we start, please, by looking at P360, the
19 regular combat report for the 4th of August.
20 Q. And you might like just to read through the first page and then
21 we'll go to the second page of this document.
22 A. I've read it.
23 Q. Then with -- thank you. And just read those few lines. Whose
24 signature is that on that document?
25 A. Dragan Obrenovic's.
1 Q. Were you in your office at the Zvornik Brigade at about 5.00 on
2 the afternoon of the 4th of August?
3 A. Yes, all the time I was there as the commander of the 2nd
5 Q. And did you have any contribution to the writing of this report?
6 A. No.
7 MR. HAYNES: Can we move on to P361, please.
8 Q. This is the regular combat report of the following day, the 5th
9 of August. Again, if you'd just care to read through the first page and
10 let us know when you are done and we can move forward one page.
11 A. Go on, please.
12 Q. And again we could probably see for ourselves whose signature it
13 is, but do you recognise it?
14 A. Dragan Obrenovic's.
15 Q. Were you there and available to sign this document?
16 A. I was probably in my office or around minding my own business.
17 If I was duty-bound to sign this, I would have, I suppose.
18 Q. We probably all noticed that in the previous document, P360, the
19 little two letters "ZA," "za," had been put in front of the commander,
20 meaning for the commander. On this document it's not been put in. Is
21 there any significance in that one way or the other?
22 A. No, none in my view.
23 MR. HAYNES: Let's look at, please, P2839 [Realtime transcript
24 read in error "P3829"]. And thankfully this is a one-page document so we
25 can deal with it a bit quicker. I'm sorry, it's come up wrong in the
1 transcript. 2839.
2 Q. Again, just confirm to us that you can recognise this signature?
3 A. Yes, at the very beginning I recognise Dragan Obrenovic's
5 Q. What were you doing on the 2nd of August?
6 A. I was marching with my brigade from Zvornik to Bijeljina and
7 onwards to Banja Luka.
8 Q. Any significance in the fact we've got yet a third variation in
9 the way that it's signed this time, standing in for the commander Major
10 Dragan Obrenovic?
11 A. In terms of responsibility and powers, no. In terms of status
12 issues and the status of Dragan Obrenovic, yes.
13 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Haynes, if I could just interrupt you for a
14 moment. I think on line 22, page 39 [sic]. That should be the 6th of
15 August. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.
16 MR. HAYNES: Yes. Thank you very much, Judge Prost.
17 Q. Now, when did you leave to the Krajina with the Drinski Brigade?
18 A. I believe that I left on the 7th of August.
19 Q. What was your point of departure?
20 A. The column was formed in Kozluk north of Zvornik some 12 to 15
21 kilometres away from Zvornik. That was our departure point.
22 Q. I'm just interested because I think in answer to my question a
23 little earlier about what you were doing on the 6th of August, you said
24 you were marching. Where were you marching on the 6th of August, if
25 indeed you were?
1 A. I believe that you asked me about the 8th of August and I was
2 marching on that day, on the 8th.
3 Q. So where were you on the 6th?
4 A. On the 6th I was in Zvornik.
5 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Judge Prost.
6 Q. What did you experience on your march from Kozluk?
7 A. It was the hardest march any unit under my command ever took. On
8 the one hand the column was very long and composed of various combat and
9 non-combat vehicles in different sorts and states of repair, and the
10 roads were overcrowded by a huge long column of refugees from the
11 Republika Srpska Krajina. It's head in Bijeljina, that's where I first
12 came across all these people, and they continued blocking our marching
13 route throughout our march.
14 Q. How long did it take you to get to Krajina?
15 A. I believe that it took us the whole day on the 7th and then on
16 the 8th, and on the 9th early in the morning, I arrived at the forward
17 command post of the Main Staff and the 2nd Krajina Corps which was on
18 Ostrezj pass midway between Petrovac and Drvar.
19 Q. And what orders did you receive when you got there?
20 A. I met with Generals Mladic and Milovanovic there. I told them
21 about the unit that I was leading and very soon thereafter I was issued a
22 written order by General Milovanovic specifying certain axis of the use
23 of the brigade from Drvar across Grahovo field and further on in the
24 direction of Grahovo.
25 Q. And when did you receive that task or those orders?
1 A. I think that this was sometime in the morning at dawn.
2 Q. On what date?
3 A. The 9th, I think.
4 Q. And when did you act upon those orders?
5 A. I went back then and I was at the head of the column and I
6 organised the subdivision of the combat disposition of the brigade and
7 the launching of combat. We passed Drvar, we came to the edge of
8 Grahovsko Polje and the same day we actually joined combat.
9 Q. How long did that combat last?
10 A. The intense fighting lasted for two days and one night, and
11 together with some other forces of the 2nd Krajina Corps we managed to
12 stop the Croatian army from breaking through and to push them back to
13 Grahovo. Later the front did not move more or less, the line of the
14 front. And individual fighting was going on for the next 20 days or so,
15 but sometime in late August, the fighting intensified.
16 Q. What was the state of the unit you commanded?
17 A. It's very difficult to evaluate the state of the unit because
18 each battalion presented a separate problem. The unit of the Podrinje
19 Detachment of the special forces was the most compact and parts of the
20 units of the 2nd Romanija Brigade. The rest of the units were quite
21 problematic, and an entire company from the Birac Brigade from Sekovici
22 deserted after some ten days of combat and they returned to Sekovici.
23 Q. What was the calibre of the forces you were facing?
24 A. These were extremely strong forces of the guards brigade of the
25 Croatian army supported by artillery and the air force. The artillery
1 was active almost continuously.
2 Q. What happened at the end of August when combat intensified?
3 A. From the end of August until mid-September, the gradual
4 withdrawal of the forces of the 2nd Krajina Corps began, including the
5 brigade that I commanded. And then later the withdrawal of the 2nd
6 Krajina Corps took place all the way to the town of Kljuc, and this
7 proceeded in a disorganised manner so that Petrovac was captured by the
8 Croatian army.
9 Q. Did you suffer losses in your unit?
10 A. Yes, there were losses, and they were recorded separately for
11 each battalion in view of the fact that the battalions were from
12 different brigades. This was the stage of the war, or the year when it
13 was decided to bring the war to an end, so all the warring parties were
14 out to get the biggest possible piece of pie, or rather, to capture as
15 much territory as they could.
16 Q. I just want to look briefly with you at two records of your
17 period in the Krajina.
18 MR. HAYNES: Can we look first, please, at 7D439.
19 Q. Firstly, tell us what this document is, General Pandurevic, would
21 A. This is a document that I drafted together with Mijo Dragutinovic
22 who was an operations officer in this brigade. I think this is a
23 document of some 15 to 16 pages where we presented the entire engagement
24 of the 2nd Drina Brigade in detail and completely. We talked about the
25 positive and the negative sides and experiences. We made certain
1 proposals to overcome these problems, and the worst thing is that in 1995
2 we were faced with similar control and command problems as those in 1993.
3 Q. It's quite a chronological document. So I just want to pick
4 through it quickly with you.
5 MR. HAYNES: Can we go, please, to page 8 in the English, which
6 is page 6 in the B/C/S.
7 Q. And here you're referring two-thirds of the way down the page in
8 English, but in the top quarter of the page in B/C/S to a withdrawal from
9 Grahovsko Polje on the 16th of August. What was the significance of that
11 A. This was an important event. There was an irregular and
12 disorganised pullout of parts of the brigade, and at that point in time I
13 happened to be at a very high mountain range over 1500 metres altitude
14 with a battalion -- with one battalion, and to the left wing the attack
15 by Croatian forces began and there was a disorganised withdrawal of one
16 battalion so that we were practically cut off, and we managed to pull out
17 at the last moment. But one company stayed behind in the enemy
18 disposition and in the course of the night, they managed to withdraw
19 without losses.
20 Major Dragutinovic was with that company that was left behind.
21 MR. HAYNES: Can we go over one page in the English, please, to
22 page 9, but keep the same page in B/C/S.
23 Q. There you deal in the first large paragraph in the English page
24 9, but in the second half of the page in the B/C/S version with events
25 between the 16th and 19th of August and going ton the 22nd of August.
1 Again, briefly just explain to us how events developed during that
3 A. These are events relating to the pullout of the brigade and its
4 reaching new defence positions. We occupied quite strong facilities
5 above the town of Drvar itself. In view of the bad morale among the
6 fighters, I decided to issue orders for a decisive defence. I did this
7 so that each platoon, company, and battalion commander personally signed
8 receipt of the order and that the order would be executed at any cost.
9 This made it possible for us to resist the further advance of the
10 Croatian army in that area which was very important to us.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. HAYNES: Could we now go to page 10 in the English, page 7 in
13 the B/C/S.
14 Q. And just using your report to refresh your memory, can you tell
15 us briefly about the events of the 9th of September recorded at the
16 bottom paragraph of the English and about halfway down the page in B/C/S?
17 A. I do remember these morning combat actions at this facility
18 called Ploce. It's a path between Grahovsko Polje and Drvar. I
19 personally and a number of senior officials from the brigade command took
20 part in the fighting to prevent the Croatian forces from advancing in the
21 area of Grahovo Polje and Drvar.
22 MR. HAYNES: And can we now go please to page 11 in the English
23 and page 8 in the B/C/S.
24 Q. And again refreshing your memory if you need to from your report
25 of 1995, tell us about events between the 10th and the 16th of September
1 as they are recorded there.
2 A. In the period from the 13th to the 15th we had already pulled
3 back closer to Kljuc and Sanski Most so that the village of Ramici in the
4 15th -- on the 15th of September another Drina Corps Brigade came to
5 relieve my brigade. And on the 15th in the evening in the late evening
6 hours, marched from Sanski Most towards Zvornik.
7 Q. And on the 16th?
8 A. On the 16th the forward part and the bulk of the brigade forces
9 came to Zvornik, and then on the 16th the rear of the brigade and the
10 rest arrived.
11 Q. Which bit were you in?
12 A. I was at the head of the column.
13 Q. What time did you get back to Zvornik on the 16th?
14 A. Around noon.
15 Q. Now, can we leave that to one side for just a moment. Apart from
16 Orahovac which you've told us you drove past on the 17th and 18th of
17 July, did you know where any other bodies in the Zvornik area were
19 A. I knew roughly the locations, but not specifically what these
20 places were, and I'd never gone there either.
21 Q. Did you know how many people had been killed even approximately?
22 A. I knew that it was a large number, but I didn't know exactly what
23 the number was.
24 Q. While you were in combat in the Krajina, who was your superior
1 A. I was in the 2nd Krajina Corps in the operations group 1 to be
2 precise, commanded by Colonel Kukobat Dusan, and he was my immediate
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the unit that this
5 person was in command of.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, will you attend to that, Mr. Haynes, please.
7 MR. HAYNES:
8 Q. Yes, the interpreter missed the unit which you were in command
9 of, could you repeat it, please, General Pandurevic?
10 A. I was in the operations group 1 of the 2nd Krajina Corps under
11 the command of Colonel Kukobat Dusan who was my former platoon commander
12 from the military academy.
13 Q. Between the 7th of August and the 16th of September, did you make
14 contact with the command of the Zvornik Brigade at all?
15 A. I remember that the phone lines were working in Drvar for a
16 period of time, and I did call in several times in order to report if
17 there were any losses, what the situation was among the men so that the
18 families of the fighters would have the information because they were
19 very concerned, and there were rumours circulating about all the
20 different events in Krajina.
21 Q. Well, let's have a look at one such example.
22 MR. HAYNES: Can we have P379 into e-court. It's page 31 in both
24 Q. It's the very bottom of the page, and this is the 8th of August
25 so pretty much the day of your arrival. Is that the sort of message you
1 had in mind that you phoned through?
2 A. Yes, these are the messages that I'm talking about, yes.
3 Q. And about how many times do you think you did that?
4 A. I don't know exactly. I called in perhaps a couple more times.
5 I don't know exactly.
6 Q. What about contact with General Krstic during that same period?
7 A. Because this company from Sekovici had deserted and some other
8 individuals as well, I was asking the Drina Corps command to try to bring
9 in those people and to return them in order to maintain morale in the
10 rest of the brigade. I also called in and -- to the corps command in
11 code via another corps to send in tank crews which were left behind by
12 the Krajina army. There were tanks, there was ammunition, but there were
13 no crews to operate them.
14 Q. And did you ever receive any information concerning a plan to
15 exhume and rebury dead bodies in Zvornik?
16 A. I never received that kind of information. At that time all the
17 communication that I had with the Drina Corps was reduced to the problems
18 and the duties of the brigade that I was in command of.
19 Q. And we've had a deal of evidence from you about this and we've
20 got your report, 7D439, but what was the combat situation like in the
21 Krajina between the 7th of August and the 16th of September?
22 A. These were perhaps the most difficult days of the war for me.
23 MR. HAYNES: Just to sweep up one document, can we have a look at
24 7D455, please.
25 Q. What is this document?
1 A. This is a document drafted pursuant to a Drina Corps order of the
2 21st of September, 1995, and refers to losses in Krajina suffered by the
3 2nd Drina Brigade that I was in command of. I think that I did not sign
4 this document. I am not sure. We would need to look at the last page.
5 Q. Certainly we can do that, but were those losses, as it were,
6 throughout the Drinski Brigade or were they limited to those soldiers
7 which had been provided by the Zvornik Brigade?
8 A. I think that these are losses only of the Zvornik Brigade here.
9 That's what it says in the heading anyway.
10 MR. HAYNES: Very well. Now, we are going to move back into, as
11 it were, a tighter historical narrative, and I wonder whether we can go
12 back to the practice of General Pandurevic having the hard copy of P379
13 available to him. That's the later duty officers' log-book. Thank you
14 very much, Ms. Stewart.
15 Q. And I want to start with your looking at page 523, General
17 MR. HAYNES: And that for the rest of us is 115.
18 Q. And hopefully at the top of the page we can see that this relates
19 to the 14th of September, and I want to draw your attention, please, to
20 five lines up from the bottom, "telegram," something, "class number
21 03/4-2341 from 14 September, 1995." And "telegram 10/34/2-3-701 from
22 14th September, 1995, delivered to Pantic."
23 Now, we all know what this is about. It's about confirmation of
24 the arrival of some fuel. Did you receive any advance information about
25 the arrival of any fuel at the Zvornik Brigade on the 14th of September?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you in command of the Zvornik Brigade on the 14th of
4 A. No.
5 Q. Where were you on the 14th of September?
6 A. In the village of Ramici near Kljuc in Krajina.
7 Q. And you've gone through this briefly with us, but what had been
8 happening to you in the week prior to the 14th of September?
9 A. That week before the 14th of September, I was practically working
10 to save the lives of my soldiers and to save my own life in the very
11 difficult fighting that was going on at the time.
12 Q. Did you anticipate at any time during that week that you'd be
13 back in Zvornik on the 14th of September or any time shortly thereafter?
14 A. No, the practice was that when the unit was being sent outside of
15 its home section to the defence sector of some other unit, the soldiers
16 usually expected to stay for 15 or 20 days at the most and then to be
17 relieved. In this case, the unit stayed much longer and it was a major
18 problem for me to keep the units in that area and to prevent them from
19 leaving that sector arbitrarily to return to their own sector.
20 However, I insisted in order to adhere to command and control
21 that another brigade be sent to relieve us so that we would carry this
22 out in an organised manner so that it wouldn't seem that we were doing
23 what the soldiers wanted us to do.
24 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Now, I want to move now to another
25 document just to go back to something that you told us a few minutes ago.
1 And it's P378. The duty operation officers' diary. Pages 121 to 122 in
2 B/C/S. The English translation is 7D486.
3 Thank you, that's very kind of you.
4 Q. Firstly, in the English translation the date in the left-hand
5 margin is recorded at the top of the page as the 15th of May and about
6 halfway down as the 16th of May. Can you help us by, as it were, looking
7 at the dates either side of that as to what in fact that should read?
8 A. The dates refer to two different days.
9 Q. But do they record events in May?
10 A. I apologise, I never paid attention to the fact that the month is
11 May. All the other dates refer to September, so this must be a mistake.
12 Q. And on the day that is recorded as the 16th of May, if we go
13 forward one page in e-court to page 122, and you go over the page
14 yourself, what event does that record?
15 A. 16 of September is when the events happened, and it says in the
16 second row:
17 "Today at 1130 the 2nd Drina Brigade returned to Zvornik
18 headed by the Lieutenant-Colonel Vinko Pandurevic. They returned to the
19 area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps."
20 MR. HAYNES: Thank you and that would be a good moment to take a
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, we'll have a 25 minute break. Thank
24 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
2 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Now, General Pandurevic, when you returned to the command of the
4 Zvornik Brigade on the 16th of September, 1995, what did you do?
5 A. Before I arrived at the command of the Zvornik Brigade, I entered
6 the barracks. Sometime before Kozluk I pulled over and waited for the
7 column to gather, and then I proceeded towards Zvornik and arrived at the
8 command of the Zvornik Brigade. During the march we had radio
9 communication, and we knew exactly where each of the echelons of the
10 column were at the time. There were some vehicles that broke down.
11 There were buses that broke down. We had to send a man from the repair
12 shop to repair or haul such vehicles away, so the process to gather the
13 whole brigade lasted until the afternoon.
14 I inspected every unit from every brigade, and I held meetings
15 with each of them. I thanked all the men and I sent them to their
16 respective garrisons. Finally, I was left with the brigade command, and
17 I also held a special meeting with them and we analysed the previous
18 events together.
19 Q. Which brigade command?
20 A. The 2nd Drina Light Infantry Brigade that had been sent to
22 Q. And when you had done all that, what did you do then?
23 A. Before I did all that, I had reported to General Krstic, and I
24 announced the arrival of the brigade at Zvornik. I told him what we
25 would do next, and I suggested that I should come to Vlasenica the
1 following day and report to him verbally. And then to follow that up
2 with a written report, the report that we have seen today in this
4 Q. How long were you at the barracks of the Zvornik Brigade on the
5 16th of September?
6 A. Until sometime in the evening. I don't know how long. In any
7 case, I stayed until late afternoon or early evening.
8 Q. And where did you go then?
9 A. I went to Celopek to the place where that notorious number is.
10 Q. Whilst you were at the Zvornik Brigade during the afternoon of
11 the 16th of September, were you engaged with the affairs of the Zvornik
12 Brigade at all?
13 A. No, not at all.
14 Q. Did anybody mention to you the arrival of a quantity of fuel two
15 days previously?
16 A. No, nobody did.
17 Q. Just out of interest, a delivery of fuel of that sort, where
18 would it physically be kept?
19 A. Since we now know the quantity, it could have been in a 5 tonne
20 tank or it could have been stored at the gas station; the one that was
21 regularly used by the Zvornik Brigade.
22 Q. And remind us where that was?
23 A. In Karakaj.
24 Q. How far from the brigade command?
25 A. A couple of hundreds of metres. Maybe up to 500 metres away.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, when you arrived back at the Zvornik Brigade
2 command, did you see Dragan Obrenovic?
3 A. I did not see him that day before the evening, and then I think I
4 saw him in the evening before I left the barracks.
5 Q. For how long?
6 A. Just briefly. I just told him that all the units had returned.
7 I asked him to continue looking after them, just like I did to all the
8 other brigade commanders from which elements of my brigade had been
9 composed when I took them to Krajina.
10 Q. Did he mention any fuel to you?
11 A. No, he didn't.
12 Q. Can we come on, please, to the 17th of September, the following
13 day. What did you do on the morning of the 17th of September?
14 A. I had planned to go to the corps command to report to General
15 Krstic there. I first went to the brigade command in Zvornik where the
16 duty officer informed me that before I headed for Vlasenica I should call
17 General Krstic on the phone.
18 Q. And did you do that?
19 A. I did. I phoned General Krstic. We talked. I briefed him. I
20 told him that the brigade had accomplished its task, that the troops had
21 been redistributed to their original garrisons, and I asked him to grant
22 me a ten-day leave, and if there was no pressing need for me to come to
23 Vlasenica, that I should rather not come. He accepted all of my
24 proposals and granted me the leave that I had requested.
25 Q. At what time was that conversation?
1 A. That was in the morning. Not very early. I'm not sure. Maybe
2 around 9.00.
3 Q. And what did you do after you had spoken to General Krstic?
4 A. I went back to Celopek. I organised my trip. I booked
5 accommodation in Botova [phoen] in Montenegro, and on the following day
6 early in the morning I left.
7 Q. Did you go alone?
8 A. No, I did not go alone. I went with my girlfriend.
9 Q. Now, let's just leave matters there for a moment and see if you
10 can help us with some of the records for the dates we've been talking
12 MR. HAYNES: Can we look firstly, please, at P378, the duty
13 operation officers' diary. The same page we have on the screen, page 121
14 in both the English and B/C/S.
15 Q. And the ERN number that you are looking for, General Pandurevic,
16 is 723. Now, this is the entry for the 16th of September, and it's above
17 the entry that you read out to us last.
18 "Brigade commander inspected the positions of the 7th Battalion
19 in the village of Memici."
20 Did you do that on the 16th of September?
21 A. No, it wasn't me.
22 Q. How far is Memici from the command of the Zvornik Brigade?
23 A. About 25 kilometres.
24 MR. HAYNES: We've looked at this document I think before, 7D261,
25 please, in e-court. And we'll need the fourth page of this document
1 certainly in English. I'll wait to advise whether that's the case in
2 B/C/S as well. Page 5 in B/C/S, please.
3 Q. We've just seen the front page of that document. This is a
4 vehicle work record relating to a Mercedes driven by a man called Ljubisa
6 A. Ljubisa Danojlovic was Dragan Obrenovic's driver. The one who
7 most often drove him.
8 Q. And what does the entry reveal Ljubisa Danojlovic was apparently
9 doing on the 16th of September?
10 A. Looking at this document, you can see the routes that Dragan
11 Obrenovic's driver took and probably Dragan Obrenovic was in the car as
12 well. On the 15th he went to Vlasenica. On the 16th he went from
13 Zvornik to Memici and then back to Zvornik. On the 17th it was
14 Zvornik-Pecina and back to Zvornik. Pecina is the forward command post
15 of the 2nd Infantry Battalion close to the village of Malesici.
16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Just to reinforce the point, can we have
17 a look at P379, the duty operation officers' log-book.
18 Q. You will want the ERN 528, General Pandurevic.
19 MR. HAYNES: The rest of us need to look at page 120, 1-2-0.
20 Thank you.
21 Q. And I think six lines down we see there at the third asterisks:
22 "Obren in the 7th and headquarters support teams in the 2nd
24 The 7th would be where?
25 A. The 7th battalion was in Memici, and Obrenovic was also very
1 often referred to as just Obren.
2 Q. Yes. Thank you.
3 MR. HAYNES: And lastly on this point 7D670. The regular combat
4 report for the 16th of September.
5 Q. The second paragraph:
6 "A team of officers from the brigade command is inspecting
7 the 2nd Battalion in order to assess overall conditions in the unit and
8 particularly the functioning of the RiK, command and control. The
9 brigade commander inspected the positions of the 7th Battalion defence
10 area in Staro Selo."
11 Who is referred to as the brigade commander there?
12 A. Dragan Obrenovic.
13 MR. HAYNES: And can we just go to the second page of that
14 document. It's one of those documents which in Serbian has a blank page
15 in between pages 1 and 2.
16 Q. This is yet another variation on how to sign a document:
17 "Standing in for the deputy commander, Major Dragan Obrenovic." Any
18 comment to make about that?
19 A. No, he was standing in for the commander of the brigade.
20 MR. HAYNES: Can we move now, please, forward a couple of pages
21 in the duty operations officers' notebook, General Pandurevic, to page
22 530 in the hard copy version you have. The rest of us, can we look at
23 page 122.
24 Q. And it's the entry at the very top of the page:
25 "Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic to not go to Vlasenica. Inform
1 general not to go to Vlasenica in the afternoon. Lieutenant-colonel in.
2 Major is in Malesici at the briefing," and then, "Stevic 583-609."
3 Let's deal with the first two lines there, Lieutenant-Colonel
4 Pandurevic not to go to Vlasenica, inform General not to go to Vlasenica
5 in the afternoon." Help us, if you can, as to what the illegible portion
6 says, and what that refers to.
7 A. I believe that you have read it out very well. I was supposed to
8 go to Vlasenica on the 17th to meet with the General Krstic. However,
9 the general or somebody on his behalf, but it says here as reported by
10 general that I should call the general before I left and that I should
11 not go there in the afternoon, which means that although I did talk to
12 the general, I did not meet with him face to face. I did not go to
13 Vlasenica on that day.
14 Q. Thank you. "589-991 lieutenant-colonel in" --
15 A. Celopek.
16 Q. Thank you. I don't think you need to tell us any more about
17 that. "Major is in Malesici at the briefing." Where is Malesici, what
18 briefing would that refer to?
19 A. Malesic is the 2nd Infantry Battalion, and this was the briefing
20 of the commanders of the battalion division -- the division battalions
21 were headed by Dragan Obrenovic. As you can see in the vehicle log of
22 his driver, on that day he was in Pecina which is the forward command
23 post of the 2nd Infantry Battalion in Malesic.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, we'll come on now to the 18th of September.
25 MR. HAYNES: Can we have a look again in the duty operation
1 officers' notebook for that date. You need to look at page 632 and the
2 rest of us at page 124. That's P379.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's the mistake -- it's
4 623 as the last page.
5 MR. HAYNES:
6 Q. Well, just in relation to this example, you can look on the
7 screen then General Pandurevic, if we put up page --
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. 432. 532.
10 We see on that page, "Obrenovic to be in Vlasenica at General
11 Krstic's at 1800 hours." What purpose would he be fulfilling in doing
12 that on the 18th of September?
13 A. It's possible that General Krstic needed to speak with Obrenovic
14 with a personal assignment for him, or perhaps it was a meeting of all
15 the commanders of the Drina Corps brigades in relation to some
16 assignments that they were supposed to receive.
17 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Can we then just go to 7D261 again.
18 Again page 4 in the English and page 5 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. And help us as to what we read under the entry the 18th of
20 September for Obrenovic's driver Ljubisa Danojlovic?
21 A. The 18th of September it says:
22 "Zvornik-Pandurica route, Zvornik-Vlasenica. Zvornik-Pandurica
23 is a hill in the area of defence of the 7th Battalion. It's possible
24 that in the morning Obrenovic was touring that battalion and in the
25 evening he went to Vlasenici.
1 MR. HAYNES: Just to complete the picture for that date, can we
2 look at 7D672, the regular combat report for the 18th of September. It
3 is another document that's under seal, so it should not be broadcast.
4 Sorry, it hasn't appeared in the transcript. 7D672.
5 Q. And I think we just want to have a look at the bottom of this
6 document to see who it is signed by and in what apparent capacity.
7 A. Signed by Dragan Obrenovic as a representative of the commander,
8 or acting commander.
9 Q. Now, when you spoke to General Krstic --
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry for interrupting, but the interpreter
11 just said "standing in for the commander," and then said, "or acting
12 commander," and it's my understanding, perhaps the General can sort this
13 out, that there is a difference. An acting commander is "vrsilac
14 duznosti," sorry about the pronunciation, but that's important and if we
15 could clarify that.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
17 MR. HAYNES: I'm not sure how we can clarify it, it's a
18 translation issue, isn't it? But I'll do my best.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. I think basically the -- your client
20 has heard Mr. McCloskey. I think he can look at the document itself. We
21 have on the screen -- and tell us --
22 JUDGE KWON: What we have on the --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, "za stupa." Yes --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And just one of the reasons I bring it up is the
25 document that actually assigned Major Obrenovic to be standing in says
1 "standing in," it says "za stupa," but it got translated by CLSS as
2 "acting," and I didn't correct it at the time because I wasn't sure.
3 That was 5D452.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's a question of whether the transcript
5 or the interpretation we receive reflects what the document says or adds
6 something different. Perhaps you can address it straightaway with your
7 client or your client who has heard this exchange can explain all this to
9 MR. HAYNES:
10 Q. Well, General Pandurevic, do you still have this document in
11 front of you on the screen? And really, I'm simply going to ask you
12 this: Have you got any comments about the title which is accorded to
13 Dragan Obrenovic in that document?
14 A. I will try to explain so that at least it's as clear to everyone
15 else as it is to me. In the original it says "za stupa," standing in for
16 the commander. I understand in the translation it means "standing in."
17 The term used by Mr. McCloskey "acting commander," "vrsilac duznosti" is
18 a term that doesn't exist in law. In the law or regulations it says
19 exactly what the status is of a person in the military. They can be
20 active, they can be on sick leave, they can be in training, or they can
21 be removed from duty. Or if they are prevented from carrying out their
22 duty, for example, if they are on sick leave they are assigned an acting,
23 so that is the definition for acting.
24 There is another word, "deputy commander," and that is an
25 establishment duty where the deputy where the commander is not present
1 then stands in for the commander. So acting commander as somebody who
2 carries out their duty does not exist in legal terms or in the
4 Q. Thank you. Now, when you set out for your holiday in Montenegro,
5 how long did you book it for in simple terms?
6 A. Ten days.
7 Q. And did you tell General Krstic that you were planning a ten-day
9 A. I asked for a ten-day leave and he granted it.
10 Q. And did you personally leave information with the brigade that
11 you were on leave for ten days, or did you leave that to General Krstic
12 to deal with?
13 A. I said that I would be away, that I would be taking time off, and
14 how the general could get in touch with me in the easiest possible way
15 was through the brigade command.
16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Now, I want to just look with you again
17 at a collection of reports made during your absence. Firstly, on the
18 21st of September the regular combat report is 7D675.
19 Q. Again, we need to look at the foot of that document to identify
20 the signature and the manner in which it is signed off.
21 A. It says: "Standing in for the commander, Major Dragan
22 Obrenovic," and then there is his signature.
23 MR. HAYNES: Can we go back to paragraph 2, please.
24 Q. The second bullet point:
25 "The brigade commander and Chief of Staff have visited the mixed
1 artillery division," it should be, "units." Who does that refer to?
2 A. This refers to Dragan Obrenovic and Milos Maksimovic.
3 MR. HAYNES: Can we look at the regular report for the 22nd of
4 September, please, which is 7D676.
5 Q. Again second paragraph:
6 "The brigade commander visited the 5th Infantry Company."
7 Who does that refer to?
8 A. It refers to Dragan Obrenovic.
9 MR. HAYNES: And if we go to the second page of that report.
10 Q. Who has signed it and how is it signed off?
11 A. There is just a stamped signature. There is no handwritten
12 signature by Dragan Obrenovic.
13 MR. HAYNES: And lastly 7D677, the regular combat report for the
14 23rd of September.
15 Q. Paragraph 2:
16 "The brigade commander visited the mixed artillery battalion."
17 Who does that refer to?
18 A. Dragan Obrenovic.
19 MR. HAYNES: Can we go back now to P379, the duty operations
20 officers' log-book.
21 Q. You need to look at page 542.
22 MR. HAYNES: The rest of us at page 134, an entry for the 23rd of
23 September. Thank you.
24 Q. The entry at 1028 for the 23rd of September:
25 "The commander went to Ekonomija and then to Vjenacac?"
1 The reference to the commander is who?
2 A. Dragan Obrenovic.
3 Q. And where is Ekonomija?
4 A. That is the military farm that was close to Karakaj where pigs
5 were raised.
6 Q. And Vjenacac?
7 A. Vjenacac is a dominant elevation above Kozluk where there was an
8 artillery nest and an observation point.
9 Q. About six lines further down:
10 "The commander will be at the corps commanders on Monday at 0700
12 Reference to who?
13 A. A meeting was scheduled here it at the corps command and this
14 refers to Dragan Obrenovic.
15 Q. Now, as it happens, unless anybody objects to me leading on this,
16 we know the 23rd of September was a Saturday, so Monday at 0700 hours
17 would be what date?
18 A. The 25th.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. HAYNES: Can we look at 7D261 again, please. And again it
21 will be page 4 in the English and page 5 in the B/C/S -- actually, no it
22 won't, but we'll see. Page 2 in the English this time, page 3 in the
24 Q. And can you help us as to where Ljubisa Danojlovic was driving on
25 the 25th and then 26th of September?
1 A. On the 25th from 5.00 in the afternoon he was driving from
2 Zvornik to Vlasenica and to Zvornik. And on the 26th, Zvornik-Mrkonjic
3 Grad, the village of Radic, meaning that he had gone the Krajina.
4 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. And just to complete the picture of what
5 was going on in your absence, can we have a look now please at P2391. D
6 in the B/C/S is under seal. A in the English I don't believe is.
7 Q. This is an intercepted radio communication from the 22nd of
8 September. X apparently is a female, lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, and
9 somebody called Mihalic.
10 The female says:
11 "Yes, give me Major Popovic, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic."
12 She says: "Just a moment."
13 He says:
15 "Hello. This is Popovic, can I help you?
16 "Mihalic here.
17 "Hi Nido.
18 "What's up Pop?
19 "Nothing much.
20 "It's like this.
21 "Hey Nido, did the fuel arrive?"
22 "I'm out of it, fuck it.
23 "Does Trbic know? Is he there somewhere?
24 "He left.
25 "He is working on that right? Yes, he is working, but I think he
1 said that not much more work will be done today.
2 "Yes, yes. I knew something like that. I knew it.
3 "Say again?
4 "Could you please find out if it came, if it arrived. Call the
5 gas station?
8 Did you know anything about this conversation or what it was
10 A. I don't know anything. Earlier during the proceedings I've seen
11 this intercept, and of all the interpretations that were given, I really
12 didn't have any other ones before, and I don't have any now.
13 Q. Did anybody call you in Budva and say, The Zvornik Brigade have
14 run out of fuel, that any work that was supposed to be done in that area
15 might have to stop?
16 A. No, and I wouldn't have been able to resolve that problem from
17 Budva anyway.
18 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Now let's move on to, as it were, what
19 you were doing. Can we go back to the duty operations officers' log-book
21 Q. You page 536.
22 MR. HAYNES: The rest of us page 128.
23 Q. Help us as to what date we're looking at now, please, General
24 Pandurevic, would you?
25 A. This is the 19th of September, 1995.
1 Q. And we see there a telephone number and a room number and then
2 your name. What's that?
3 A. I arrived at Budva on the 18th and I settled into the hotel.
4 However, in the morning the director of the hotel, or actually the
5 reception staff said that the director had offered a new room, and I went
6 to room 100, and then I informed them about the reception telephone
7 number where I could be reached if Krstic needed to speak with me
9 Q. And just to be clear about this, what date did you anticipate
10 leaving that hotel?
11 A. I don't remember the date exactly. It could be the 27th. It was
12 ten days later.
13 Q. And did you stay ten days?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And why not?
16 A. I think that this was on the 25th in the morning. I got a
17 message from the reception to call a specific number, this was the number
18 of the brigade command. I called and I got the message that General
19 Krstic had ordered me to cut short my holiday and to return.
20 Q. What did you do after you had received the message?
21 A. I packed, I checked out, and I went back.
22 Q. Did you understand at that stage why you had been ordered to cut
23 short your holiday?
24 A. I didn't know why. I assumed that there was some urgent need or
25 some serious military circumstance.
1 Q. Well, obviously you found out at some stage. So let's look at
2 how events were unfolding back in Republika Srpska.
3 MR. HAYNES: Can we look, please, at 7D701.
4 Q. Did you know anything about the issuing of this order on the 25th
5 of September before you went to Montenegro? And that sounds a silly
6 question. Did you know that it was in General Krstic's mind to pass such
7 an order before you went to Montenegro would be a better question?
8 A. No, I didn't because already three brigades from the Drina Corps
9 had briefly stayed in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps, so it wasn't to
10 be expected that another brigade would be sent there. However, the
11 circumstances in that section of the front required that another brigade
12 be sent, so now another brigade of the Zvornik Brigade had to be sent now
13 to the zone of the 1st Krajina Corps.
14 Q. What office did Lieutenant-Colonel Radomir Furtula hold?
15 A. Radomir Furtula was commander of the 1st Podrinje Brigade, but
16 here he was appointed as the commander of the newly formed brigade that
17 was going to the area of the 1st Krajina Corps.
18 Q. And when did you first learn that he had been appointed as
19 commander of that unit?
20 A. I found out about it when Obrenovic was appointed instead because
21 the first one succumbed to some stomach problems, just like the first
22 time when I myself had to go instead of him.
23 MR. HAYNES: Can we look, please, at P158.
24 Q. This is an order of the Drina Corps dated the 26th of September
25 of 1995, appointing Dragan Obrenovic commander of the brigade in place of
1 Lieutenant-Colonel Radomir Furtula. We'll leave that to one side for a
3 Did you speak to General Krstic on the day that you received the
4 message at the hotel?
5 A. I spoke with him in the afternoon.
6 Q. How did you speak to him?
7 A. I called him from a civilian phone, from the apartment of friends
8 of mine.
9 MR. HAYNES: Can we go back, please, to the duty operations
10 officers' log-book. Page 545 for you, General Pandurevic. For the rest
11 of us page 137.
12 Q. And it's really the last-but-one line on this page which reads:
13 "584-726 commander." Firstly, what's the date of this entry?
14 A. This is an entry from the 25th of September.
15 Q. Secondly, what is that number and how did it come to be recorded
16 in the duty operations officers' notebook of the Zvornik Brigade?
17 A. This is the number of my friends from which I called first the
18 command of the Zvornik Brigade, and then General Krstic.
19 Q. Can you help us as to about what time the entry was placed in the
21 A. You can't conclude based on the previous entries. There are no
22 clear indicators of time here. As far as I can remember it was in the
23 afternoon, maybe sometime after 1500 hours.
24 Q. And where were your friends? Where did they live?
25 A. They live in Zvornik.
1 MR. HAYNES: Now, I want to look with you now, please, at an
2 intercept. It's P2929.
3 Q. This is an intercept dated the 25th of September. Timed at 1540.
4 Let's have a look through it.
5 "V: Hello. Put 01 on the line.
6 "One moment.
7 "Yes, I was resting a bit.
8 "I am sorry.
9 "That's okay. Tell me.
10 "Legenda is here with me.
12 "We have now defined these tacks and obligations.
14 "Now, he is explicit in his demand to act as one. No one should
15 join him. He does not want to join a larger formation.
16 "Well, okay, let them go as one unit.
17 "And he would like to use the armoured section.
19 "Well, would he be able to for those other reasons?
20 "To do what?
21 "He wants to use his tanks.
23 "Well, how is he going do that? We don't have freight trains, my
24 Vinko. How much fuel would we need to get --"
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Do we have a correct B/C/S version?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be on the next page, Your
3 MR. HAYNES: Thank you.
4 Q. Now, do you recognise this conversation?
5 A. I do indeed.
6 Q. Were you a participant in it?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. And who were you talking to?
9 A. I was talking to General Krstic via the switchboard.
10 Q. What switchboard?
11 A. I suppose the switchboard was in the Zvornik Brigade.
12 Q. Physically, where were you when you were making that call?
13 A. In Zvornik in my friend's apartment.
14 Q. And how was it possible to connect you to General Krstic from
15 that number?
16 A. I previously called the command of the Zvornik Brigade. I
17 inquired about the tasks that had been given to the brigade. I also
18 spoke to Legenda since he would have been at the forefront of the forces,
19 and then I called General Krstic in order to tell him that I had arrived
20 and that I was already at the command; although, on that day I did not go
21 to the brigade command, and I called him through the switchboard.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if this answers your question,
23 Mr. Haynes, because I -- at least I understood it differently. Your
25 "And how was it possible to connect you to General Krstic from
1 that number?"
2 MR. HAYNES:
3 Q. Yes, could you explain the mechanics of the Zvornik Brigade
4 connecting you to General Krstic from a private telephone number?
5 A. The switchboard in Zvornik has its civilian postal number. I
6 called that number, the latter number, and then by using that number, the
7 switchboard connected me to the corps command.
8 Q. Was there any other way you could have spoken to General Krstic
10 A. I could have called the switchboard in the corps, and then the
11 corps switchboard would have put me through to the general.
12 Q. Was there any reason you didn't do that?
13 A. As far as I can remember I called the switchboard in Zvornik. I
14 suppose that at that time I did not have the number of the Vlasenica
15 switchboard on me.
16 Q. So that we are all clear, did you make one call or more than one
17 call from the domestic phone number? Let me make that clearer. Did you
18 make a call in which you spoke to somebody at Zvornik about the tasks and
19 then asked them to put you through, or did you call them, find out about
20 the tasks, put the phone back and dial back?
21 A. First I called the command [Realtime transcript read in error
22 "commander"] of the Zvornik Brigade and I believe I spoke to the duty
23 operations officer there. He conveyed the information to me regarding
24 the tasks that had been given to the Zvornik Brigade. He mentioned
25 Legenda and his engagement. I don't know if I called Legenda
1 specifically or whether he was there already. I can't remember that.
2 But I know that I spoke to him, and he told me about a problem with
3 regard to the engagement of his technical means. In other words, he
4 wanted to use his tanks from Zvornik.
5 Then, I called General Krstic and I pretended that Legenda was
6 with me, that we had defined all the tasks, and I told him about
7 Legenda's request. However, you can tell from this intercept, from this
8 conversation, that I didn't know what kind of engagement was at stake, so
9 I'm asking whether it was the closer variant. I didn't know whether
10 Legenda would be sent to the 2nd Krajina Corps or the 1st Krajina Corps.
11 If General Krstic had given it a second thought, he could have concluded
12 that I was not at the command at the moment when I was talking to him.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes, the first line of his answer, line 8
14 "commander" should read "command", am I correct?
15 MR. HAYNES:
16 Q. General Pandurevic, when you made your first call, did you call
17 the command or the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?
18 A. When I say the "command" I mean the duty operations officer. We
19 always call him first, he's always there, and he will be the one to
21 Q. On the day that you called General Krstic and had this
22 conversation that we had been looking at, did you go into the command of
23 the Zvornik Brigade?
24 A. No, not on that day.
25 Q. What date did you first go into the command of the Zvornik
1 Brigade after your holiday?
2 A. On the following day, on the 26th of September.
3 Q. And what time of day did you go in to the command of the Zvornik
5 A. As far as I can remember it wasn't early, and it was not at a
6 normal beginning of work day. I believe it was around 9.00.
7 Q. And when you arrived there, was Dragan Obrenovic still at the
8 command of the Zvornik Brigade, or had he left?
9 A. He was there. He was preparing the moves of the brigade that he
10 was to be in command of. He was in a haste and I did meet him.
11 Q. And what time did he leave according to your recollection?
12 A. I believe that the brigade left around noon on the 26th of
14 MR. HAYNES: And can we just briefly have a look at the war
15 diary -- or, sorry, the duty operations officers' diary which you have in
16 front of you, P378. We want page 127 --
17 Q. -- and you need to look at page 729 in the hard copy, General
19 Can you read out the entry that has 1230 written in it. It's the
20 second entry in the book?
21 A. "At 1230, 434 soldiers joined the Drina Brigade and left for the
22 area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps.
23 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. And that I think is the end of the day.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes and Mr. Pandurevic. We'll
25 stop here for the day. We will resume tomorrow at 9.00. Thank you.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of
3 February, 2009 at 9.00 a.m.