1 Wednesday, 11 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is the case
8 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 All the accused are here. Presentation is exactly as it was
12 Mr. Haynes, good morning to you, good morning, Mr. Pandurevic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to finish today? I don't think so.
15 MR. HAYNES: I'm touch and go.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Touch and go.
17 MR. HAYNES: Might do, might not do.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I reckon if you stick to the 30 hours, you have
19 about five hours left.
20 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Four and a half, five.
22 MR. HAYNES: If I do just finish before the end of the day, I may
23 crave your indulgence to allow me to think about it overnight.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
25 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much, indeed.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
2 WITNESS: VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examination by Mr. Haynes: [Continued]
5 Q. General Pandurevic, we left off yesterday afternoon with the
6 regular combat report of the 26th of September of 1995. I want to just
7 step back a day and have a look at a few documents with you, and I want
8 to start with P2925, please.
9 This is translated but that shouldn't trouble anybody because
10 it's simply a list of names.
11 It's probably perfectly obvious to us all what this is, but since
12 it isn't translated into English, can you tell us what it is?
13 A. This is a record of the presence of personnel in the command of
14 the infantry brigade for September 1995. And on this list, we have all
15 the officers and NCOs that were deployed in the command of the Zvornik
16 Brigade so it's the records for the Zvornik Brigade.
17 Q. And if we just concentrate on entry number 31, that's you, is it?
18 A. Yes, I'm not highly ranked on this list.
19 Q. I think that's because it's alphabetical but there you go. Can
20 you help us, please, there appear to be three different entries in
21 relation to your name. Firstly, we see what appears to be a T, what does
22 that stand for?
23 A. T is terrain and probably there should be a legend at the end
24 explaining what the Ts are. That means presence in the field or terrain
25 and absent or free were the other ones.
1 Q. Well, the Ts appear to end on the 17th of September and then we
2 see C. What does C stand for?
3 A. That is the Cyrillic S in actual fact which means that I was
4 Slobodan, S as in Slobodan which means free, that I was not at work on
5 duty that day.
6 Q. And that --
7 A. I had a day off.
8 Q. And that covers all the days from the 18th and including the
9 25th. On the 26th to the end of the month there appears to be a cross or
10 a plus sign, what does that denote?
11 A. That means that I was at the command during those days and
12 occupying my post.
13 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much. Can we now please have a look
14 at 7D679, the regular combat report for the 25th of September. Thank
15 you. Paragraph 2:
16 "A team of officers from the brigade command is analysing
17 operational tasks carried out last month while working on the operational
18 tasks plan for the coming month. A training course is being prepared for
19 platoon and squad commanders in the brigade.
20 At 1500 hours, the brigade commander having returned from the
21 corps where he presented his report, held a meeting with the
22 battalion/artillery battalion commanders and core members of the
24 Q. To whom does that refer?
25 A. This refers to Dragan Obrenovic. On that day, he was at the
1 command in Vlasenica in the Drina Corps at a meeting linked to taking on
2 assignments and the departure of the brigade to Krajina.
3 MR. HAYNES: And can we go to the foot of this report which is
4 page 2, please.
5 Q. This document appears to be type signed in your name, can you
6 identify for us, please, the duty officer on the 25th of September who
7 compiled this report?
8 A. Looking at the initials MN, means that the person with those
9 initials compiled this combat report and on the list of the command of
10 the Zvornik Brigade, there is not a single person with these initials and
11 they weren't on the list of duty operatives in the command of the Zvornik
12 Brigade, either. However, he was in the rear, in the rear battalion, the
13 logistics battalion. There was a man called Milutin Nedeljkovic who was
14 a reserve captain who, from time to time, would be mobilised so most
15 probably in September that was the case because of the lack of officers
16 so he was probably on duty, and he didn't have a complete knowledge of
17 the situation and the state of affairs and so quite logically he put my
18 name as a signature believing that to be the proper way.
19 I saw this report on the 17th of September, as well, a report of
20 this kind with the same initials compiled by the same person, and he
21 placed my name there but signed it Dragan Obrenovic.
22 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Two more documents to look at --
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Haynes.
24 MR. HAYNES: Certainly.
25 JUDGE KWON: Can I see the previously document again, P2925, the
1 records of presence?
2 MR. HAYNES: Certainly, yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Could you check where -- on what day the letter S
4 begins and what day it ends. I was not clear.
5 MR. HAYNES: The first S appears on the 17th and the last S
6 appears on the 25th.
7 Would it help you if I handed you a hard copy and a hard-edged
8 piece of paper so you could do the exercise I've just done?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I was mistaken. The first C appears on the
10 17th, doesn't it?
11 MR. HAYNES: I may have said 18th, you might be correct, and I
12 thank you very much for pointing that out.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 MR. HAYNES: We were just about to move very quickly to look at
15 the duty operations officer's log book for P -- for the 25th of
16 September, that's P379. If you can have the hard copy document again,
17 you're going to look for page 547 and the rest of us at page 139.
18 Q. Do you have the page we now have in e-court, General Pandurevic?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Since the date is not obvious on that page, can you just confirm
21 that that page refers to the 25th of September?
22 A. This page should be the 26th of September.
23 Q. Well, I want you to look down that page at two entries, please.
24 One about a third of the way down, a meeting of battalion commanders at
25 1200 hours. Does that have any point of reference for you?
1 A. This should mean that a meeting was held of the battalion
2 commanders at 1200 hours and perhaps the operative log book would provide
3 better references for us to be able to be absolutely certain of what this
4 is about.
5 Q. All right. But a few lines below that, we see: "Briefing at
6 10.00 as planned, Obren." What does that refer to?
7 A. Here most probably there was some misunderstanding that Obrenovic
8 had called a number of meetings not knowing that he was going to go to
9 Krajina as command of the brigade, so this appears here twice, this
10 referring at -- reporting at 1200 hours and the other at 1000 and the
11 name Obren. So I'm not quite sure but at any rate, one of those two
12 reporting sessions were held on that day, the 26th.
13 Q. Okay. Well, we may come back to that in another document but
14 just one last document for your comments which bears the date the 25th of
15 September, and it's P2927. And I'm going to be asked that you be
16 provided the original of this document which I know is in court at the
18 Firstly, tell us, what is this document, what's the effect of it
19 and what's its purpose?
20 A. This document is an order to form an infantry company which was
21 supposed to become part of the Drina Brigade with the assignment in
22 Zvornik and the 1st Krajina Corps. Now since the Zvornik Brigade
23 provided one battalion, which was the special forces, the rear special
24 forces, and this company, which was formed from men from the -- other
25 battalions, this order came after the meeting which was held by Dragan
1 Obrenovic which the commanders of the battalions and artillery battalions
2 and regulated all these questions, and this order was later written
3 according to the initials MN -- MM, Milan Maric, who was a clerk in the
4 operative organ of the Zvornik Brigade staff.
5 Q. If we go to the bottom of the document which is page 5 in the
6 English and I think page 3 in the B/C/S but ... yes.
7 It appears to bear a signature, is that your signature?
8 A. Yes, that is my signature.
9 Q. When did you sign that?
10 A. This is a signature over a stamp, that's quite obvious, but
11 usually you put the signature first and then the stamp because the order,
12 or, rather, the person working in the offices of the headquarters should
13 never place a stamp where there's no signature, and this shows that I
14 signed this order on the 26th, that is to say, the following day, when I
15 came to brigade headquarters.
16 Q. And I think in fact, so that everybody can see that point, they
17 better have a look at the original document that you have. Can you hand
18 it first to Mr. McCloskey and then Their Honours may want to see it.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's okay, I've seen it.
20 JUDGE KWON: And do you agree with it?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I agree with the part about the stamp. When it
22 was signed, I might have a disagreement with.
23 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
24 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. It can go back to Janet now.
25 Q. Now, when you arrived at brigade command on the 26th of
1 September, what did you set about doing?
2 A. Since I met Obrenovic for a brief period and he was preparing to
3 leave for Krajina, I shortly told him about some of my experience from
4 the combat operations and my stay in that area, and then I took up the
5 regular duties of a commander, which means I talked to the officers from
6 the staff, the operatives, first and foremost, in order to become
7 informed with the situation in the brigade.
8 And looking at this work book for that day, as it says, the
9 battalion commanders and artillery battalion commanders had reporting
10 sessions, and it says the same for the 27th.
11 Now, I'm not quite sure why two days in a row I organised
12 reporting sessions because one would have been enough, but possibly one
13 had been planned for the 26th and then postponed until the 27th or both
14 of them, but I did lead one of those reporting sessions, at least one of
16 Q. Do you recall now whether there was one on the 26th?
17 A. It says that here so I can't deny that it wasn't but it also says
18 the 27th, so I am sure that I did lead one of those reporting sessions,
19 maybe both, if both were held. I'm not quite sure.
20 Q. Well let's just illustrate the point you're making. If we have a
21 look at 7D680 the regular combat report for the 26th of September.
22 We can see the penultimate bullet point of paragraph two reads:
23 "The brigade commander held a briefing for battalion/artillery
24 battalion commanders, and a command reconnaissance mission is currently
25 underway led by the brigade commander."
1 Does that ring any bells, the command reconnaissance mission?
2 A. This shows that the briefing was held and reconnaissance was
3 conducted with the head of the brigade commander which must have been me.
4 Q. Okay. And if we go to 7D681, please, the regular combat report
5 for the following day, the 27th of September.
6 We see it says under paragraph 2 there:
7 "A routine briefing with battalion/artillery battalion
8 commanders was held."
9 Does it help you at all as to whether there were two meetings or
10 just one?
11 A. If it says in this report that on this day, the 27th, a briefing
12 was held, then it was. And at the time, I was the brigade commander so I
13 was present there. But I'm not quite clear and can't provide an answer
14 as to why two briefings were held on two consecutive days.
15 Q. Very well. Just a look at two more documents to try and help
16 piece together your movements on these couple of days. Can we have a
17 look at 7D770.
18 This is the vehicle work log for the vehicle we're very familiar
19 with, the Nissan Patrol T-2175 for the month of September. And we'll
20 need to look at the third page, please.
21 No apparent use of that vehicle between the 17th and the 29th of
22 September. On the 17th, it appears to have gone from Zvornik to
23 Belgrade. And then on the 29th, came back from somewhere to Zvornik.
24 Where did it come back from on the 29th?
25 A. I think that in that second column, the 29th, in the original, it
1 says Barajevo which was a service for those Nissan vehicles near Belgrade
2 called Barajevo, a repairs shop. And after the vehicles were used for a
3 long time, especially in Krajina in poor conditions, the vehicles need to
4 be serviced. So that's where they were sent during the time that I was
6 Q. Thank you. Did you use any other vehicle in September 1995?
7 A. There was another vehicle which I found in the brigade on my
8 return from the Krajina, it was a Renault Safran which had remained
9 behind. It had been left there by the army of Srpska Krajina. For some
10 reason it was unable to cross the bridge into Serbia so it was there. I
11 used that vehicle for a few days.
12 MR. HAYNES: Can we have a look please at 7D771.
13 Q. This is a vehicle work log from the 1st of September to the 30th
14 of September for a Renault Safran. The users are various: General
15 Stupar, Lieutenant-Colonel Milovanovic, Major Obrenovic, Ljubisa
16 Danojlovic, but the driver is listed as Sergeant Bogdan Pandurevic. Is
17 this the vehicle you're talking about?
18 A. Yes, it is. That's the vehicle.
19 Q. And again if we can go to the third page of that document, the
20 second in B/C/S. And we can see that on the 25th of September, that
21 vehicle appears to have gone from Zvornik to Belgrade, according to the
22 vehicle work log, and on the 27th of September, it went on a journey Loko
23 to Zvornik, Zvornik-Loko, does that help you as to whether you travelled
24 anywhere on the 26th or 27th of September?
25 A. On the 26th, I didn't travel anywhere. On the 27th, this vehicle
1 was used in the Zvornik area in the Loko area, also on the 28th and the
2 29th. Could this be moved to the right please so I can see the driver's
3 signatures. Yes, it's last three something signatures, B Pandurevic,
4 that's Bogdan Pandurevic, he was my driver alongside Dragan Stevic, and
5 he drove me on the 27th, the 28th, and 29th of September.
6 Q. Can you identify the suggest for the 25th of September?
7 A. I'm not sure of that.
8 Q. When you were in Budva, what means of transport did you use to
9 get there?
10 A. I used my private car.
11 Q. And so far as you were aware, where was the Renault Safran during
12 the time that you were in Budva?
13 A. I wasn't aware of that but we can reconstruct it from this
14 vehicle work sheet, but I did not make any decisions on the use of that
15 vehicle at that time.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
17 Now, upon your return to the brigade, did you come to learn about
18 something unusual going on in Zvornik during your absence?
19 A. Yes. A few days later, I learned that some trucks had passed
20 through Zvornik and that these trucks were carrying some sort of material
21 which left behind an unbearable stench. I discussed this with Mijo
22 Dragutinovic. He said that probably corpses had been transported, and he
23 knew that the trucks came from the transport company because they had
24 Styer [phoen] make trucks and that the local citizens were upset by that
25 and that this happened in the course of the night.
1 I asked him whether the brigade had been assigned any sort of
2 task or issued any sort of order in connection with this and his answer
3 was no. He said he had no knowledge and he knew no details about that
5 Q. Did you make any further inquiries into what had been going on
6 and did you come to learn who was involved?
7 A. I didn't discuss this in detail with anyone at that time, nor did
8 I make any sort of investigation. When Dragan Obrenovic returned from
9 the Krajina, I asked him whether he had been informed of all this, and he
10 told me that just before my return from the Krajina, he had been at the
11 command in Vlasenica and that he was aware that Mladic personally had
12 approved fuel for the relocation of corpses and that the engineers
13 battalion of the Drina Corps participated in that. He also said that
14 this operation was being conducted by the very top, the highest
15 authorities in the army and that no task had been issued to the corps in
16 that respect.
17 Q. Did you say no task had been issued to the corps in your last
19 A. I said the brigade.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you consider whether you should conduct a
21 criminal investigation into what had been going on?
22 A. It was very difficult for me to take any action in view of the
23 information I had. Somebody was doing a job that had nothing to do with
24 me, and in view of what had happened in July, I assumed that this
25 operation had to be much more secretive and that it was better for me not
1 to get mixed up in it in any way.
2 Q. What was your information as to how secretive the operation had
3 been in September?
4 A. To the best of my recollection, Mijo Dragutinovic told me it
5 lasted for five or six days.
6 Q. And were you able to discern from what he or Obrenovic told you
7 what agencies had been involved in the operation?
8 A. In view of the fact that it did not go down the usual chain of
9 command, according to the normal method of issuing tasks to subordinate
10 units, it could have been organised within the scope of the security
12 Q. Did you know that or just assume that?
13 A. I did not have any direct information about who was engaged in
14 this, who was in charge of it, but I was able to conclude that it was
15 being done by the security organs because no tasks had been issued to any
16 of the commands for them to pass the orders down the chain of command and
17 deal with this matter.
18 Q. How long was Dragan Obrenovic in the Krajina?
19 A. I think for about a month, I'm not sure exactly.
20 Q. And when he mentioned the fuel that you've told us about, did he
21 draw your attention to any particular document or record or did he just
22 tell you about it?
23 A. I'm not sure what the source of his information was concerning
24 the fuel, whether it was General Krstic who had told him or whether he
25 had learned it in some other way. All he told me was that fuel had been
1 approved for that operation and that it would be used for the purposes of
2 relocating corpses.
3 Q. Did he know where the fuel had come from?
4 A. I don't know whether he knew. We assumed it might have come from
5 a base which had fuel available and which was supplying units.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, after the end of September, how did the combat
7 situation develop in the Krajina?
8 A. I didn't have any direct information about the course of the
9 combat activities in the Krajina, but I did know in general terms that
10 there was heavy fighting going on, that the town of Banja Luka was under
11 threat, that the Army of Republika Srpska invested great efforts engaging
12 all its resources and managed to stop the offensive carried out jointly
13 by the Croatian Army, the Croatian Defence Council, and the Army of
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 Q. How did the combat situation come to an end?
16 A. I think it came to an end with the signing of a cease-fire which
17 was subsequently followed by the negotiations in Dayton with a view to
18 putting an end to the war finally.
19 Q. Do you recall what date, approximately, the Dayton Peace
20 Agreement was signed?
21 A. I think it is initialled sometime in November 1995 and later on
22 it was signed in Paris, whether in January 1996, I'm not sure. I did
23 have that document in my hands, the framework agreement for peace in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina with some 11 annexes.
25 Q. And what did your job involve after November 1995?
1 A. From the framework agreement for peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
2 what I as a soldier found most significant were the military annexes of
3 the agreement, these referred to the deployment of IFOR forces, these
4 were forces for the implementation of peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and to
5 my tasks as a brigade commander with respect to the separation of forces,
6 the shift in the front line, and compliance with all the provisions of
7 the agreement.
8 Q. What did you have to do in relation to your own forces following
9 the initialling of the agreement in November 1995?
10 A. There were deadlines set for particular activities to be carried
11 out in several stages. The first stage was moving the existing positions
12 from the confrontation line two or four kilometres back and this applied
13 to both warring sides. That was the first activity we carried out and it
14 was preceded by a joint meeting between the commander of the American
15 forces in that sector, Lieutenant-Colonel Hareman [phoen], Semso
16 Muminovic and myself. The meeting was held in Memici.
17 Q. And when was the state of war lifted?
18 A. After the separation of the sides, within 45 days or 120 days,
19 I'm not sure, there had to be complete withdrawal of all forces to
20 barracks, the grouping of equipment in certain locations, and I think the
21 state of war was ended in December 1995.
22 Q. How long did the implementation of the military accords under the
23 Dayton Peace Agreement take?
24 A. It took quite a long time. I think the deadline was 120 days for
25 both men and equipment to be withdrawn to barracks. Collection points
1 for equipment were designated and then mixed controls were carried out so
2 that the equipment was inspected by teams from the Army of Republika
3 Srpska in the Bosnia-Herzegovina forces and vice versa. And within the
4 scope of implementation of this agreement, there was a process of
5 subregional monitoring of weapons on the territory of the former
6 Yugoslavia, where it was stated precisely what equipment what side was
7 able to have at its disposal. I attended such negotiations in Vienna on
8 one occasion.
9 Q. Did you conclude the putting into effect of all those measures as
10 commander of the Zvornik Brigade or did you leave before the tasks were
11 all finished?
12 A. The complete withdrawal of all units and equipment to barracks
13 and demobilization of the majority of the soldiers, apart from those who
14 wished to remain in professional service, was completed while I was still
15 the brigade commander. All that was left was to carry out inspection on
16 both sides to check whether the provisions of the military annex of the
17 Dayton Accord had been complied with.
18 Q. When did you leave Zvornik?
19 A. I left the Zvornik Brigade in April 1996.
20 Q. And where did you go then?
21 A. I was then assigned to the Main Staff to the Administration for
22 Operations and Training, the operations department, as a deputy chief of
23 the operations department in the administration.
24 Q. Now, we know that since the war, you have remarried and had two
25 sons. When did you first meet your second wife?
1 A. The -- well, I first met her in April 1996.
2 Q. Well, we might as well get this out of the way. What happened to
3 your first marriage?
4 A. My first marriage took place in November 1985, and we agreed on a
5 divorce in October 1994, as far as I can remember. It was a consensual
7 Q. Thank you. Do you still have contact with your daughter Natasha?
8 A. Yes, certainly. I have been in contact with her all the time.
9 It was a consensual divorce, both sides agreed. There was only one
10 hearing which lasted for half an hour, and the decision came into force,
11 neither of us appealed, we waived the appeal. We had a drink together
12 and we separated in a civilised manner, and I remained in contact with my
13 daughter. I visited her regularly during the war and after the war and
14 now she's visiting me here.
15 Q. Now, in June of 1996, what happened in terms of your career?
16 A. When I was assigned to the Main Staff to the operations
17 department, there were three other officers, colonels, together with me
18 who came to the Main Staff. They had all been brigade commanders or
19 regiment commanders. I think it was Colonel Blagojevic, Colonel Glizdek
20 [phoen] and Colonel Borovina. They were all assigned to appropriate
21 duties which were one step higher than the positions they had had as
22 brigade commanders, that was group 8 whereas brigade commander is 9. I
23 was assigned to a lower level duty and that's group 10. I spent a month
24 there and then I asked General Mladic for approval to take study leave.
25 He did not approve this. Then I applied to General Milovanovic. He gave
1 his permission, and a month later I left Crna Rijeka and spent most of my
2 time in Belgrade working on my Ph.D.
3 Q. How long did you stay in Belgrade?
4 A. Until November 1996. From time to time I went to Zvornik but I
5 spent most of the time in Belgrade.
6 Q. Now, in 1996, keeping as it were the chronology, were there any
7 political changes in Republika Srpska?
8 A. To the best of my recollection, in September, elections were held
9 for the president of the republic, and Mrs. Biljana Plavsic was elected
10 president. Later -- previously, certain pressures had been exerted by
11 the international community and President Karadzic, who had been
12 president up to that time, withdrew from political life.
13 Q. Did you have any connections to any political party at that time?
14 A. I was not a member of any political party, nor did I have any
15 political connections with anyone. I was not involved in politics at
17 Q. What happened in terms of the structure of the Army of Republika
18 Srpska after the election of the new president?
19 A. Before the new president was elected, after the war, the army had
20 to carry out certain establishment changes and reorganise. It had to
21 reduce its numbers, a new establishment had to be drawn up for a
22 peacetime army, and also a wartime army had to be planned. It was
23 necessary for the Main Staff to be renamed and to become the General
24 Staff as is usual, and for that purpose, the president of the republic
25 asked for a session of the Supreme Command and for the Main Staff to be
1 renamed as the General Staff. This implied certain personnel changes
2 because there were already indications at that time that there would be
3 indictments raised both against General Mladic and others and that he
4 would not be able to remain at that post. That was the information I
6 Q. What happened to you?
7 A. In early November, my brother Nenad called me up on the telephone
8 and told me that Vasic had been looking for me for two days. Vasic was
9 the chief of the public security centre in Zvornik and he had a message
10 to give me. My brother told me to contact Vasic, which I did.
11 Q. And what chain of events did that set?
12 A. Vasic told me that the president of the republic was looking for
13 me, that I should report to Pale, that a meeting had been planned and
14 that a number of officers from the Army of Republika Srpska had been
15 summoned to that meeting. I wasn't told about the details or the purpose
16 of the meeting.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, just to be clear, are we talking November
19 MR. HAYNES: 1996.
20 THE WITNESS: 1996.
21 MR. HAYNES:
22 Q. Did you go?
23 A. Yes, I did, I went.
24 Q. What was the meeting like?
25 A. Well, first of all, we waited a long time. When I went up there
1 I met Mr. Pero Colic who was a colonel whom I saw once before the war. I
2 knew nothing about him. And then Colonel Josipovic, Dragan Josipovic who
3 was the commander of the Ilijas Brigade near Sarajevo, I knew him from
4 before. Then there was a man from the state security who used to be my
5 history teacher in secondary school, his name was Mile Renovica, and we
6 were waiting for General Grubac to arrive and also, I think, General
7 Talic and some other colonels. And we were supposed to have a meeting
8 with all those senior officers because the president had planned certain
9 personnel changes within the General Staff.
10 And before that, a meeting of the Supreme Command had been
11 scheduled to which nobody appeared from the then Main Staff.
12 Q. What happened at the meeting?
13 A. Well, we sat in a large hall until well after midnight in the
14 offices of the president, madam president. There were the top leaders
15 from the republic. And somewhere after midnight, I think it was, they
16 called Pero Colic and Josipovic into the cabinet or office of the
17 president where they stayed for some time, and then they all adjourned to
18 the big hall and the president, Biljana Plavsic, read out the decisions
19 or presented the decisions which they had made at that joint meeting of
20 theirs which I did not attend.
21 Q. How did it affect you?
22 A. Madam President said she had decide that Pero Colic should be
23 promoted to the rank of General and that he be appointed as chief of the
24 General Staff, having renamed the Main Staff the General Staff, and also
25 Josipovic, he was promoted to the rank of General by her, and he was the
1 deputy chief, deputy head. And I was told that I had been appointed as
2 assistant to the chief for morale and moral guidance and religious
3 affairs, and the president asked for our reactions, to hear our
4 reactions. I was the only one to take the floor, and I said that I
5 considered that in the Army of Republika Srpska there were a lot of
6 highly-qualified and experienced officers and that there was no need to
7 rush a decision of any kind and that the post I was given, I wasn't very
8 happy to have it, but I would carry out any assignment and occupy any
9 post that they put me in. And her answer was: You can do that, you know
10 how to do that, and you will do that. The decision was upheld.
11 MR. HAYNES: I sense Mr. McCloskey's unease. It's the
12 translation of the office to which you were appointed.
13 Q. Could you perhaps tell us what it is slowly to give the
14 interpreters a chance?
15 A. I became Gvero in translation, the assistant for morale and
16 religious and legal affairs.
17 Q. What about your rank, was that changed?
18 A. No, I still remained a colonel by rank.
19 Q. You may have already substantially dealt with this, but did you
20 understand why the new president felt it necessary to substantially
21 change the personnel within the command of the Main Staff or the General
23 A. Well, I think it was common knowledge in Republika Srpska that
24 almost throughout the war, there was a certain amount -- a certain lack
25 of understanding, if I can put it that way, not to use a stronger word,
1 between the commander of the Main Staff and the president of the republic
2 which resulted in certain problems in control and command of the army.
3 And there were attempts by the president to replace the commander of the
4 Main Staff and that nobody wanted to take on that duty, I don't know for
5 what reason that was. And after the war, it was imminent, reorganisation
6 was imminent, and since General Mladic did not respond and did not come
7 to attend the meeting of the Supreme Command, and his presence had been
8 required and probably the presence of some other generals in order to
9 resolve this issue, but as he failed to appear, the president decided to
10 make the decisions without him.
11 Q. And did you understand why you were selected for the post you
12 were given?
13 A. Well, there were four of us in all and they took it in order,
14 some kind of order, and I was probably the only one and that's why I was
15 put in the post. Perhaps if there was somebody after me, he would have
16 been assigned the next post down.
17 Q. Did you regard it as a promotion?
18 A. In the sense of rank and function and post, yes, I did.
19 Q. What was the reaction to these changes?
20 A. Well, they were troubled times in a difficult situation. And the
21 command of the Main Staff up until then, General Mladic was in Crna
22 Rijeka, and he didn't want to have any contacts with the president. He
23 refused the hand over and takeover of duty, the four of us for a time
24 were at Pale and we had communication with certain corps and certain
25 corps would send reports to us. Others would send it to the Main Staff
1 and others yet again would send it to both, and there were different
2 comments in the media about all this. There were articles that appeared
3 that were very personal in nature and spoke about the four of us who had
4 been posted to that General Staff. So I find it unpleasant to think back
5 to those days.
6 Q. How were you characterised in the press?
7 A. Well there were some articles that appeared, I remember my
8 daughter called me up from Belgrade and asked me what was going on and
9 what the whole thing was about. They weren't articles that were rude or
10 offensive, but they did overstep some military norms and codes of conduct
11 or they stressed too much ambition, but there weren't any assessments
12 made against my character or anything like that or my professional
13 qualities whereas the others were criticised, the other people were
14 criticised, and said they didn't know their job, they were incompetent,
15 not professional and things of that kind.
16 Q. Where was the new staff situated?
17 A. As they managed to organise a meeting at Pale, attended by
18 General Milovanovic [Realtime transcript read in error "Miletic"] and I
19 and General Tolimir, I remember that very well. Now, whether there was
20 anybody else, I'm not quite sure, anyway it was agreed that instead of
21 Mladic, the handover and takeover of duty between Pero Colic should be
22 conducted by General Milovanovic. And a plan was drawn up for touring
23 the units and the handover of duty, and the General Staff moved to
24 Bijeljina. And after that, the other officers who were in Crna Rijeka,
25 except for the Generals as far as I remember, or the general.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, one moment. Ms. Fauveau.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Just that in transcript, on page
3 23, line 5, the name of my client is mentioned, and I'm sure the witness
4 did not mention my client's name.
5 MR. HAYNES: No, I agree with that. He said General Milovanovic.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You confirm that, Mr. Pandurevic. For
7 the record, I saw Mr. Pandurevic nodding.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's right.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Thank you, Madam.
10 MR. HAYNES:
11 Q. Did you remain as assistant commander for moral and legal affairs
12 or did you acquire some other rank, some other position?
13 A. Well, soon after those appointments, the 5th Corps was set up
14 with its headquarters in Sokolac, and General Josipovic wanted to be
15 given the post. He didn't like being the deputy head, and then a
16 proposal went to the president that he be appointed the command of the
17 5th Corps and that I be appointed deputy chief of the General Staff. And
18 that is what was done I think sometime in November 1996.
19 Q. On the 2nd of August of 1997, did you get married to your present
20 wife Danijela?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Did you remain at the command of the General Staff in Bijeljina?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Until when?
25 A. Until September. In September, I went to Belgrade to the
1 National Defence School.
2 Q. So that we're clear, is that September of 1997?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Why did you go to the National Defence School in September of
6 A. Well, that was the time when the academic year started, or
7 academic years in general, and the same holds true for military academies
8 and military schools. So sometime in June 1997, we sent in a proposal
9 with a list of officers from the Army of Republika Srpska who wished to
10 attend training in Belgrade in the command staff academy. I think there
11 were 30 names on that list, 30 officers, and there were six who wanted to
12 go to the National Defence School and among them, I, myself.
13 However, we received confirmation that everything was all right,
14 but one or two days before the beginning of the academic year, a document
15 arrived from Belgrade which was not signed and which stated that as for
16 the command staff school, only 13 people could enroll there and one
17 person could enroll in the National Defence School and my name was not on
18 that list.
19 Q. Do you know whose name was on that list?
20 A. On that list was Novak Djukic from the 1st Krajina Corps, he was
21 a colonel.
22 Q. Who made the selection as to who would go?
23 A. I don't know the name of the person who did that, but I'm quite
24 sure that somebody -- that it was a high-ranking officer from the Main
25 Staff of the war composition of the Main Staff, but this was covered by a
1 decision of the chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.
2 Q. What did you do about that?
3 A. At the initiative of the chief of the General Staff, General
4 Colic, a meeting was called for at General Persic's and then there was a
5 meeting at President Milosevic's office. And present there were the
6 president of the Assembly of Republika Srpska, the prime minister, the
7 minister of defence, I think General Savcic was there, too, of course
8 Pero Colic and myself, and there was the chief of the General Staff of
9 the Army of Yugoslavia, General Perisic. And at that meeting, because
10 allegedly General Perisic couldn't make the decision himself, it was
11 decided that everybody should go to enroll into the school according to
12 the previous list that had been okayed, so I was sent to school with the
14 Q. How long were you at the National School of Defence and with what
15 honours did you graduate?
16 A. The school, according to its curriculum, lasts for one year and
17 it finishes when you take your exams, graduation exam at the end and that
18 exam you have to sit for in July. I passed all the exams and I just had
19 my graduation, final exam to take. And that morning when I was ready to
20 defend my graduate thesis, the head of the School for National Defence,
21 General Jagos Stevanovic, told me that his deputy would tell me -- would
22 read out a decision to me, and the decision was that my graduation
23 session be postponed for a fortnight.
24 Q. What was that all about?
25 A. Allegedly because of a military disciplinary measures taken
1 against me because of alleged abuse with respect to having been allotted
2 a flat. I know that before that event, maybe a month before the event,
3 there was a team from the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia with
4 three colonels, one of them from the security administration, one from
5 the legal administration, and the third, I don't know who that was, or
6 what he was. They talked to me in the presence of the headmaster or head
7 of the school with respect to the request that I had tabled to be
8 allotted in conformity with the law, a larger flat because my wife was
9 pregnant at the time and she was to give birth in two or three months'
10 time, so I had put in a request for a bigger flat, bigger accommodation.
11 And that's what I was supposed to get.
12 They asked me to sign a statement of some kind and said
13 everything would be all right. I refused to do that and they left. And
14 after that, I was prevented from taking my final examination and
15 defending my thesis and military disciplinary measures were put in place.
16 Q. What came of them?
17 A. It went on for some time because there's set procedure. First of
18 all -- well, I'm not a lawyer but as far as I understand it, it is first
19 of all discussed and dealt with within the -- by officers, and then the
20 military disciplinary Prosecutor files a proposal and a date is set for a
21 hearing, and when the hearing was supposed to talk place, the prosecutor
22 who had raised the whole -- put the whole procedure in place didn't
23 appear, another prosecutor appeared and he said he withdrew the
24 proceedings. So everything stopped without any trial. And six months
25 after the first period that I was supposed to take my graduation exam, I
1 took it in January 1999, and I graduated with honours and a small
2 celebration was organised to present me with a diploma and a military
4 Q. You mentioned that at the time you were about to graduate, your
5 wife was pregnant. Were your twin boys born on the 27th of July of 1998?
6 A. Yes, they were.
7 Q. We've been through your various promotions, but did you retire
8 from the Army of Yugoslavia in 2002?
9 A. Yes. The rank in the Army of Yugoslavia was recognised later on
10 at -- well, later than it was recognised for other people. On the basis
11 of a decree of the president of the republic, Mr. Kostunica, so I had the
12 rank of colonel in the army of Yugoslavia for six years, and I had
13 fulfilled all the legal conditions for the rank to be verified in the
14 army of Yugoslavia and this was done in 2001. And I was sent to
15 retirement as an invalid in 2002. I had an invalidity pension.
16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. We'll take a break there.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Twenty-five minute break starting from now.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
21 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. When, in the course of the history that you have been relating to
23 us this morning, did you first learn that there was an indictment before
24 this Tribunal with your name on it?
25 A. When indictments began to be raised against various individuals,
1 there was various speculation going on and rumours going around as to who
2 the accused could be and whose names in those indictments, and there were
3 suspicions of secret indictments being in existence, but I learned
4 publicly that I was indicted in December 2001.
5 Q. And what did you feel when you found that out?
6 A. I felt terrible, very unpleasant feeling because it was a turning
7 point in my life in actual fact, it was something that completely
8 derailed me and defined my life's course from that day to this.
9 Q. Where were you and what were your circumstances in December 2001?
10 A. In December 2001, I was the chief of the centre for military
11 strategic studies and research, and I was living a normal life,
12 functioning normally, moving around normally in public places, nothing
14 Q. What was your family situation?
15 A. I lived with my wife and two sons. They were three years old at
16 the time. They were too small to be able to understand anything or me to
17 be able to explain my situation to them in any way, and I thought that
18 the important thing was that for at least one or two years, I spend time
19 with them, as much as possible, and then to try when they were a bit
20 older to explain to them what it was all about, but I never had any
21 illusions, I thought that -- I never thought that I would appear in court
22 and have to defend myself against accusations made against me.
23 Q. I wonder if you would just repeat what you said in the last
24 sentence there because there seems to be widespread concern that you said
25 precisely the opposite of what's been translated. Did you think you
1 would have to appear in court?
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter wasn't sure what the accused
3 actually meant so could he repeat it, yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly I thought -- I knew that
5 I had to appear in court, I had no illusions on that score, but I
6 considered that I would need some time before I did that because of my
7 two sons. Otherwise, had I remained unmarried, as soon as I'd heard
8 about the indictment, I wouldn't have waited a moment, I would have come
9 straight into court.
10 MR. HAYNES:
11 Q. How did you live after the discovery that you had been indicted?
12 A. I withdrew and reduced my contacts with people, I didn't appear
13 in public places. I was mostly with my family and lived that kind of
14 secluded life.
15 Q. How long did you remain with your wife and children?
16 A. Perhaps half a year from when the indictment was made public. We
17 were together all the time, and then I lived in a rented flat close to my
18 own flat and perhaps every 20 days or a month, they would visit me and
19 they would spend time with me for about through or four days.
20 Q. How did you deal with the question with the boys?
21 A. Well, as soon as they were able to understand things, and
22 children are more mature today, they have video games and various other
23 devices and know more, I tried to explain the whole situation to them.
24 Whether they fully understood or not, I'm not quite sure, but I think
25 they understand it all today. Although it was a very difficult time for
1 them, every time we met and had to part was very difficult and involved a
2 great deal of emotion.
3 Q. What was the decisive point for you in terms of your surrender?
4 A. As I've already said, the time that I spent with my family since
5 the indictment was raised and published until I came to The Hague
6 Tribunal was in my opinion enough time -- I gave enough time for the
7 family to be able to understand and for them to be able to live without
8 me, and so then I decided to come here and to take up these proceedings.
9 Q. Now, let's step back, as it were, within that period. By 2002,
10 the Krstic trial had been completed. Did you gather a lot of information
11 about that?
12 A. I think that the media, well, television, did not cover
13 General Krstic's trial enough. There were just periodical reports and I
14 read parts of his interview in the papers, his interview given to the
15 OTP. I followed the trial of President Milosevic because there were
16 certain matters raised there that had to do with Srebrenica, and then
17 from time to time I would follow reports from the Blagojevic and Jokic
18 trial, and I also think I followed the Obrenovic testimony before
19 judgement. I saw some footage played here during the trials and that was
20 the first time that I saw those images, people Potocari, and some other
21 pictures and images that were shown here.
22 In the meantime, I came by Mr. Richard Butler's report too so I
23 had quite a clear picture of all the events.
24 Q. I'll just pick up on a few things you said there. The Krstic
25 trial, were you able to follow that on television?
1 A. No, it wasn't broadcast like Milosevic's trial was broadcast.
2 There may have been some reports and something in the written media but
3 you couldn't get a clear picture of the course of the trial, at least I
5 Q. Where did you get a copy of the military analyst Richard Butler's
7 A. It was Mr. Milomir Savcic who gave me that report.
8 Q. And do you remember when he gave it to you?
9 A. I think it was in the middle of 2001.
10 Q. And when you had read it, what did you think of it?
11 A. I was amazed when I saw the facts and information contained in
12 that report. What I know about all these events amounted to about 10
13 percent of what was in the report. Before reading that report, I had no
14 knowledge or clear idea about the events surrounding the evacuation from
15 Potocari, the transport of the captured prisoners, and so on.
16 Q. Now, at about the time that you first saw Richard Butler's
17 report, were you in contact with General Zivanovic?
18 A. Yes, I was occasionally in contact with General Zivanovic. He is
19 a beekeeper, and he was constantly building bee hives and looking for
20 wooden boards. I had a relative who was a former signalsman from the
21 Drina Corps who had a timber factory, so he kept asking me to get
22 material for him from my relative. That's why we were in contact. And
23 when we did have contact, we also talked about certain wartime events.
24 Q. Did you become aware that he had certain connections?
25 A. I was aware that he had contacts with The Hague Tribunal because
1 he told me that himself. I knew that he possessed certain documents
2 which he had taken with him from the corps command, and I think he later
3 put those documents at the disposal of the OTP. I also knew that the OTP
4 had conducted several interviews with him. I knew that various
5 journalists came to see him. I also went to see him on several occasions
6 in his home in Valjevo.
7 Q. Did you tell him about your reaction to the report of Richard
9 A. Yes, we discussed that too.
10 Q. And just so that we can place this absolutely into context, at
11 the time that you read Richard Butler's report and the time that you then
12 subsequently discussed it with General Zivanovic, were you aware of the
13 existence of any indictment against you?
14 A. No, I was not aware of that at the time. I suspected it but I
15 didn't know.
16 Q. Did General Zivanovic make any suggestion to you as a result of
17 your discussion about your reaction to Richard Butler's report?
18 A. My reactions in connection to that report had mostly to do with
19 the documents mentioned in the report which had been drawn up by me. I
20 felt that the documents had been misinterpreted as had the reports. I
21 also felt that certain standpoints as regards the doctrine of the JNA and
22 VRS had been misinterpreted. I could not go into the facts because I was
23 not familiar with them. That was what Zivanovic and I discussed.
24 Q. And what did he suggest you should do about it?
25 A. Mr. Zivanovic is a rather unusual collocutor, I think
1 Mr. McCloskey will agree with that also. He had certain suggestions to
2 make. He said you should be as close to them as possible, as close to
3 the source -- as close to the source of information, as close to the
4 threat you are faced with, in order to defend yourself from it more
6 Q. Who did he have in mind?
7 A. He probably thought it was time to establish -- it was better to
8 establish contact with the people from the OTP in a timely manner than
9 let matters run their course. Whether he was sincere in all of that, I
10 can't say. It's not for me to judge.
11 Q. And did he have any means at his disposal to effect that
13 A. I think he said that he was able to establish contact at any
14 time, that he had the telephone numbers of people from The Hague
15 Tribunal, and when it came to him, himself, and the indictment for
16 Srebrenica as well as the investigations of crimes committed by Muslims
17 against the Serbs in Podrinje.
18 Q. And did he do that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. About how long after you'd discussed Richard Butler's report with
22 A. I remember that there was a meeting and probably that meeting
23 would have been held had there not been Mr. Richard Butler's report and
24 that was in October 2001. It was a meeting with persons whom I didn't
25 know at the time, I didn't know their names or what they were doing, and
1 they were in contact with Mr. Zivanovic. This was Ms. Gilleece and her
3 Q. Who did you take to that meeting?
4 A. I first met Mr. Zivanovic at his home and Mr. Djordje Sarapa
5 accompanied me, my brother Petar also came along. He was not directly
6 involved in any talks.
7 Q. How long had you known Mr. Sarapa by October of 2001?
8 A. To the best of my recollection, I had known him for at least
9 three years before that. That was the period when the military
10 disciplinary proceedings were instituted against me and when I was
11 involved in the case concerning my flat before the military court.
12 Q. What did he have to do with that?
13 A. You mean the meeting with Zivanovic or the previous one I
15 Q. The proceedings concerning the military discipline?
16 A. Well, I always respect one's profession. I had the right to a
17 lawyer in that sort of disciplinary proceeding. I didn't want to take a
18 military counsel, but at the recommendation of a friend of mine, I
19 contacted Mr. Sarapa and engaged him. I was told he had come from
20 Croatia, and to avoid offending anyone, I didn't want to have contacts
21 with lawyers who said they had connections in the court. I wanted to
22 deal with someone I didn't know actually personally.
23 Q. Why did you take him to the meeting with Ms. Gilleece?
24 A. The main reason why he accompanied me to that meeting was for us
25 to meet Zivanovic and for Zivanovic to tell us about the nature of his
1 contacts with The Hague Tribunal and the OTP and for Djordje, as a
2 lawyer, to evaluate the legal aspects of those contacts and the manner in
3 which they can be carried out, and then he remained at the meeting with
4 Ms. Gilleece.
5 Q. What sort of establishment did you meet Ms. Gilleece in?
6 A. After my meeting with Mr. Zivanovic, he told me to what building
7 we should go or, rather, he drove his car in front of our car and we
8 arrived in front of a restaurant called, I think, Peti Puk, and he said
9 he had agreed a meeting with Ms. Gilleece somewhere else and that he
10 would go and fetch her and bring her there.
11 Q. What time did you get there?
12 A. I don't know. I think we arrived at the restaurant at about
13 11.00, I'm not quite sure, but it was certainly before noon.
14 Q. And how long after you got there did Ms. Gilleece arrive?
15 A. Well, not long afterwards, some 15 or 20 minutes later.
16 Q. And who was with her?
17 A. To the best of my recollection, three persons, Ms. Gilleece, a
18 certain Major of the Canadian army whose name I don't know, and a female
19 interpreter from Belgrade.
20 Q. Did you know her name?
21 A. She introduced herself. I think her name was Vesna.
22 Q. And just so we, as it were, place as her into context, you speak
23 reasonably good English now, General Pandurevic. Did you speak English
24 in 2001?
25 A. I had been trying to learn English for a long time, although we
1 had to take Russian in secondary school, but from the time I went to
2 Slovenia I took courses in the English language; however, I forgot a lot
3 during the war. I did, however, understand that the interpreter Vesna
4 did not have a good command of military terminology. This is a very
5 specialised area, and you will agree with me that it's very difficult for
6 someone without a military background to translate those terms into
7 another language.
8 Q. What did you do when Ms. Gilleece and her entourage arrived at
9 the restaurant?
10 A. We had already been sitting and a table and we had ordered
11 drinks, of course we rose to greet the new-comers, we were all introduced
12 and then we all sat down at a table together.
13 Q. And did what?
14 A. As usual, General Zivanovic started his theatrics with extensive
15 introductions and explanations which I found it hard to understand, and I
16 believe Ms. Gilleece didn't understand at all, and then we arrived at the
17 main topic which was for us to provide the information we had concerning
18 the crimes against the Serbs in the Podrinje, Ms. Gilleece was interested
19 in this information, and also for me to put forward some of my
20 observations regarding the events in Srebrenica because that was
21 Mr. Zivanovic's initiative. He felt that all teams, regardless of what
22 investigations they were engaged in, were in mutual contact and exchanged
24 Q. Did you have lunch?
25 A. Well, we started by having drinks and then the owner of the cafe
1 prepared lunch. The lunch went on for quite some time.
2 Q. How long did you stay at the restaurant?
3 A. We sat there having lunch and talking for some time, then we
4 would get up and take a walk around the building looking at some old
5 ethnic exhibits, things that the owner had there, an old oven and such
6 like, and we stayed in that area until 1800 hours when a wedding
7 procession turned up with wedding guests and the bride, and then we moved
8 to another area, a private space belonging to the owner of the cafe.
9 Q. And how long did you stay in there?
10 A. Well, that was when we continued our previous activities, and we
11 stayed there until 2100 or 2200 hours, I'm not sure exactly, but it was
12 already night, night-time.
13 Q. So the note we've got which we're going to look at in some detail
14 in a little minute reflects events over 10 hours; is that right?
15 A. More or less, yes, maybe an hour less than that but thereabouts.
16 Q. And throughout that time, were you all drinking alcohol?
17 A. We all drank. I don't know whether my brother Petar did because
18 he wasn't sitting at the table together with us, but we all drank
19 including me because I felt it would be inappropriate, although I'm not a
20 man who likes a lot of alcohol.
21 Q. What about Ms. Gilleece?
22 A. She drank too.
23 Q. And Vesna, the interpreter?
24 A. Yes, so did she.
25 Q. Now, were you aware of anybody taking any notes of what was being
2 A. Yes, I was. At one point, Ms. Gilleece took out a note pad, A4
3 size, and occasionally she took notes of what we were talking about.
4 Q. Can you give us some idea of this 10-hour discourse, I mean, how
5 did it progress?
6 A. At the very beginning after the introductions and some
7 introductory remarks by Mr. Zivanovic, and after some chatting about
8 ordinary things, for about an hour and a half, perhaps, I tried to
9 explain in broad strokes what I knew about the period in July 1995, and
10 after that we moved on to providing the information that Ms. Gilleece was
11 interested in concerning the crimes against Serbs.
12 Q. Did this take the form of, as it were, an interview or a
13 conversation or a roundtable discussion or what?
14 A. It was very difficult to control the course of the conversation,
15 especially because of the presence of Mr. Zivanovic, and I also think
16 that the interpretation was not adequate and this led to a lot of
17 interruptions and confusion.
18 At one point, I thought it would have been better if I hadn't
19 come at all because I don't like things that don't proceed in a proper
20 manner following the usual procedures.
21 Q. When it was all over, were you offered the opportunity to read
22 Ms. Gilleece' note or have it translated to you or offered the chance of
23 having a copy sent to you for your approval?
24 A. No, not at all. I don't remember when that note pad disappeared
25 from view and at that point, I didn't think that would be a note that
1 would be forwarded to anyone else.
2 Q. When was the first time you knew that something had been typed up
3 of that meeting?
4 A. I learned that here. I saw it in the material that had been
5 disclosed in connection with this case.
6 Q. Very well. Now let's proceed to look at the note. We have up
7 until now used a redacted copy, and if there's going to be any legal
8 argument about this, it might be appropriate that it's dealt with now
9 because I propose to take General Pandurevic through the unredacted copy
10 which is in e-court as 7D1154. I'll wait to hear if anybody's got
11 anything to say about that.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: The Prosecution agrees with that approach and if
14 the Court wants to know anything about why it was originally redacted,
15 we, of course, I think all sides know why that was, but I think now that
16 the General is on the witness stand it would be best to have the full
17 document if he's going to be questioned upon it.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 Mr. Haynes.
20 MR. HAYNES: Well I anticipated that response. I was actually
21 waiting for objection from behind me which I can't see but I hear none so
22 I will proceed.
23 Can we please put 7D1154 into e-court. I'm going to provide the
24 General with a hard copy to which I've appended paragraph numbers to make
25 it easier. I'm happy for Mr. McCloskey to just inspect that to make sure
1 I haven't put anything untoward on it but that's all that is on there.
2 I'm sorry, yes, of course. I've apparently described P2408 as
3 the unredacted copy. That, of course, is the redacted copy, and 7D1154
4 is the unredacted copy.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment, please.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, Mr. McCloskey, it has been the practice
8 here not to broadcast texts which indicate names of our staff -- or of
9 the Tribunal's staff and interpreters and whatever. We can proceed but I
10 don't know what your position on this is.
11 MR. HAYNES: I had just noticed that we had completely unredacted
12 it and that name should have remained redacted. It only appears on the
13 first page.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes, that's what I mean.
15 MR. HAYNES: So if we don't broadcast the first page, thereafter
16 there is no difficulty as far as I can see.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Okay with you, Mr. McCloskey?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And there's only one name that I'm
19 concerned about.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I spoke the way I spoke precisely to be
21 very cautious and not to give any leads. So let's proceed with the -- we
22 won't broadcast this first page and then we'll see later on. Thank you.
23 MR. HAYNES:
24 Q. Paragraphs 1 and 2 don't really concern the events that you have
25 related to us, but we can see as we get on to paragraph 3 the details of
1 the meeting with you. Did you recall it was on the 2nd of October, 2001?
2 A. I really couldn't know if it was the 2nd of October, I knew that
3 it was roughly the beginning of October but if it says the 2nd then it
4 was the 2nd.
5 Q. And if we go to paragraph 4, that seems to accord with your
6 recollection that General Zivanovic went to meet Ms. Gilleece and her
7 colleagues somewhere else and then brought them to a restaurant called
8 Peti Puk where you were already seated with Mr. Sarapa.
9 Let's start by looking at paragraph 5.
10 "General Zivanovic explained that he taught Mr. Pandurevic at the
11 military academy many years ago."
12 Is that correct?
13 A. No, Mr. Zivanovic never taught me. He's an artillery man and I'm
14 an infantry man. Now, whether he said that to sort of boast a bit, I
15 don't know, but he certainly was no teacher of mine.
16 Q. "Pandurevic was also in charge of the Zvornik area when the
17 Serbs recaptured Kamenica in 1993. General Zivanovic then advised that
18 Mr. Pandurevic wanted to explains his actions in 1995 to us. General
19 Zivanovic also mentioned that Dragan Obrenovic had been Mr. Pandurevic's
20 Chief of Staff in 1995."
21 Do you recall that being part of the introduction that General
22 Zivanovic made?
23 A. I remember that he gave the reasons why I could provide
24 information about the suffering of Serbs in Podrinje and the events of
25 1993, and in that context he said that I was in the area in 1993 and. I
1 think that after that he went on to say that I wanted to interpret, or,
2 rather, present certain information to Ms. Gilleece. Now, whether he
3 mentioned Obrenovic as being Chief of Staff or not, I don't remember.
4 Q. Paragraph 6:
5 "Before Mr. Pandurevic spoke, I explained to the group that as
6 team members of Team 9 we investigate allegations of war crimes committed
7 by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Eastern Bosnia from 1992 to
8 1993. I further explained how the ICTY functions with various teams
9 investigating alleged crimes committed by Muslims, Serbs, and Croats. I
10 also explained the issues of witnesses and suspects in accordance with
11 ICTY rules and procedures."
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think just for the record, I think you left out
13 that the crimes she was looking at were against the Serb population.
14 MR. HAYNES: Did I?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sure it was by accident.
16 MR. HAYNES: Yes, it was.
17 Q. According to your recollection of events, did Ms. Gilleece
18 explain to you the rules for suspects and witnesses of the Tribunal?
19 A. I remember that she explained her position and her role and what
20 she did and the type of work she did. Now, as I'm here in court for the
21 first time and in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, I heard
22 discussions with respect to the rights of suspects and the rights of
23 witnesses and what the procedure was for investigators or the OTP in
24 interviewing people. I'm quite certain that at that time, I had heard
25 nothing about any of that, and I consider that this was just written in
1 by inertia as a normal of run of things because it's probably the duty of
2 every investigator to put something down like that. And I'm sure that
3 Ms. Gilleece did not -- was not aware of my status at that time.
4 Q. Can we go to paragraph 10, please.
5 "I then specifically explained to Mr. Pandurevic that in --" I'm
6 sorry, "I then specifically explained to Mr. Pandurevic that he was under
7 no obligation to speak to us about anything. If he did speak, it would
8 be of his own free will. I advised him that he could have an attorney
9 represent him. I advised him that whatever he told me, I was obliged to
10 report to the ICTY, including Team 6, and anything he said could be used
11 before the Tribunal. I advised him that he could stop speaking to us at
12 any time. I further advised Mr. Pandurevic, General Zivanovic, and
13 Mr. Sarapa that we understood that we were their guests and they could
14 ask us to leave at any time. If they asked us to leave, I assured them
15 that we would immediately comply with their request."
16 Do you recall those words being said to you during the course of
17 the introductions at this restaurant?
18 A. I don't think that this was stated in this shape or form. What
19 was said was that the lady wants to hear me out and that she could convey
20 that to Team number 6, and I understood it that this was a team led by
21 Mr. McCloskey. Now, as to me not having -- me having the right to say
22 silent, I knew that it was my good will and not my duty or obligation to
23 speak. And the fact that they were my guests, they were not my guests.
24 Perhaps they were the guests of Mr. Zivanovic, but since they had an
25 official meeting lined up with him, then I considered that they weren't
2 Q. Why had you gone there?
3 A. The principal reason was because I was invited by General
4 Zivanovic to provide information, the information we had, linked to the
5 suffering of the Serbs in Podrinje and then, along the way, I -- by the
6 by I gave it thought and Zivanovic supported this and in fact put forward
7 in one way or another that I say something about the events that are
8 discussed at this trial because he had contacts, and he said that his
9 experience in that regard was positive.
10 Q. And just one more aspect before we get into the record of the
11 narrative. Can you look at paragraph 13. And we should now be on page 2
12 in both documents. It's at the bottom of the page in the Serbian.
13 "Pandurevic stated that he had read Rick Butler's report that
14 was placed on the internet."
15 Do you recall saying that?
16 A. I received Mr. Savcic's report from him, and I said that I got it
17 from him, from Savcic. I didn't say that I'd read it on the internet,
18 and I don't know whether it was published over the internet at the time
20 Q. Can we go to page 3 and paragraph 16. It's at the very top of
21 the page.
22 "The brigades gave the prisoners of war over to the corps
23 command. The corps command then took them to Zvornik municipality."
24 Did you say anything like that?
25 A. No, I didn't speak about any specific case because I didn't know
1 that the brigades would arrest people and hand them over to the corps. I
2 probably tried to explain the principle of the matter; that is to say,
3 the principle of how the army functioned with respect to prisoners of war
4 as well because they were not the ownership of individuals or under the
5 power and authority of individuals but under the power of the army. And
6 if a brigade had POWs, then it was up to the corps to decide whether they
7 would be handed over to the corps or to some other body.
8 Q. Could we have a look at paragraph 18:
9 "The VRS entered Srebrenica on the 11th of July 1995. Civilians
10 were taken to Potocari. The 28th Muslim Division pulled out to Tuzla.
11 In the direction of Potocari, Muslim children came amongst VRS soldiers.
12 The children said things like, you are our soldiers from Tuzla, not VRS,
13 not Chetniks. Chetniks wear beards and are dirty."
14 Did you say those things?
15 A. I think that this paragraph for the most part reflects what I
16 said, but I don't think I said that the 28th Division went to Tuzla but
17 rather that it tried to break through in the direction of Tuzla and
18 Kladanj. And as far as contacts with children are concerned, this
19 quotation looks correct.
20 Q. To what extent did other people contribute to discussion during
21 your attempts to explain yourself?
22 A. General Zivanovic would interrupt from time to time wanting to
23 give additional explanations where he thought this was necessary, but
24 this would make the situation even more complicated. The others didn't
25 take part in that.
1 Q. Do you know or were you aware whether his contributions were
2 being noted?
3 A. I don't know specifically what the lady wrote down, what notes
4 she took, but from this note I don't see his comments.
5 Q. Can we go to paragraph 20:
6 "Krstic and Mladic introduced a new command of the Corps."
7 Did you say that?
8 A. This is nonsense in my opinion, it was impossible that they
9 brought in a new corps command because as a soldier the corps command, as
10 far as I am concerned, meant about 100 people. So what did they do with
11 the old set if they brought in a new set? So this is wrong. It's a
12 wrong interpretation and wrong understanding of the matter.
13 Q. Paragraph 21:
14 "At the meeting in Bratunac, Pandurevic advised Mladic not to
15 move the units. Instead, he suggested that they contact the Muslim 28th
16 Division. However, his proposal was refused as an unnecessary
18 Did you say that?
19 A. I did say something along those lines, but it was more in the
20 sense of not losing contact with the 28th Division and to prevent its
21 break through.
22 Q. Paragraph 22:
23 "Pandurevic's actions on the 13th and 14th of July 1995 are not
24 relevant, as Pandurevic took classical movements towards Zepa."
25 Did you say that to Ms. Gilleece?
1 A. I said quite the opposite because it was vital. Those events and
2 my actions on the 13th and 14th were vital within the context of the
3 overall events.
4 Q. Paragraph 23:
5 "Pandurevic received three cables from his Chief of Staff
6 Obrenovic. He recalled that the telegrams read that strong Muslim forces
7 from Tuzla, under the command of Naser Oric, were coming towards
8 Srebrenica. The Muslim 28th Division armed and unarmed people had a
9 column that came around the 15th of July, 1995. Fierce combat action
10 occurred, and both sides suffered loses in combat."
11 Can you give us your comments on that paragraph, please?
12 A. Yes. From Mr. Obrenovic, I received just the combat report of
13 the -- interim report, and it was sent during the night between the 14th
14 and 15th and there was no talk of losses there. I didn't know whether
15 there were any casualties or not and that there were other reports and
16 telegrams which were accessible to me, most probably I said that too.
17 But not from the -- all from the Chief of Staff because there was just
18 one Chief of Staff.
19 Q. What about the forces of Naser Oric coming towards Srebrenica?
20 A. Well, I don't know where that note came from. There was no
21 movement towards Srebrenica of the Muslim forces.
22 Q. Did you say anything like that?
23 A. Well, I don't know how I could say anything like that if there
24 was no information of that kind then, and we've established throughout
25 this trial that none of that happened. It wasn't like that.
1 Q. Paragraph 24:
2 "There was no information about prisoners of war in that zone.
3 Pandurevic demanded from Krstic that he be allowed to return from Zepa.
4 Krstic gave his approval. Pandurevic pulled out from Zepa at 12.00 p.m.
5 and headed towards Srebrenica."
6 Did you say anything like that?
7 A. I tried to say precisely what I have been saying here during my
8 earlier testimony, what discussion I had with General Krstic on the 15th
9 in the morning and all the subjects that were discussed, and before 12.00
10 noon I left Zepa to go towards Zvornik and not towards Srebrenica. So
11 what is said here is wrong.
12 Q. Paragraph 25:
13 "The Chief of Staff communicated to Pandurevic that the front
14 line was engaged in action with the 28th Division. For two days, the
15 brigade was blocking the larger area outside the defence zone."
16 Did you say that to Ms. Gilleece or anything like it or how do
17 you explain that note?
18 A. I certainly said on the basis of the discussion I had -- the
19 contact I had with the IKM of Krivace and the information I received
20 about the events in Zvornik on that occasion, that the 28th Division was
21 blocked in depth and not the front line of defence, or, rather, the
22 battalions did -- were not in combat with the 28th Division either on the
23 14th or on the 15th.
24 Q. Paragraph 26:
25 "On the 15th of July, Pandurevic received information from the
1 Chief of Staff that a number of prisoners of war were put in Zvornik
2 municipality by the Supreme Command and Corps."
3 What's the Supreme Command?
4 A. At no time did I mention the Supreme Command. The Supreme
5 Command is a body which helps the supreme command in commanding the army,
6 and it is composed in addition to the president of the republic by the
7 vice-president, the president of the assembly, the prime minister, the
8 minister of defence and the minister of the interior.
9 Q. How does Ms. Gilleece come to have made a note that you said
11 A. I don't know whether it was a piece of poor interpretation or
12 written on the basis of memory or whatever, I really don't know.
13 Q. What did you tell her about who you received information about
14 prisoners of war from?
15 A. I said, and that's what it stands in my report of the 15th, that
16 I received information that the POWs were put up in schools and that that
17 first information came from Mr. Brano Grujic.
18 Q. And what role did he fulfill at that time?
19 A. He was the president of the party in Zvornik municipality, the
21 Q. Do you recall whether you told the interpreter or told
22 Ms. Gilleece through the interpreter what position he held?
23 A. I'm not quite sure. Possibly I explained his position and
24 function in view of the fact that he wasn't a military person for them to
25 be able to understand better how come he happened to be there.
1 Q. Paragraph 27:
2 "Colonel Beara was the head of security for the supreme
3 headquarters for the Corps."
4 What position did Colonel Beara hold in 1995?
5 A. He was chief of the security administration in the sector for
6 intelligence and security affairs of the Main Staff of the VRS.
7 Q. And did you tell Ms. Gilleece that?
8 A. Well, with respect to this topic generally, the security organs,
9 General Zivanovic broached the subject to begin with before me, and then
10 I said who occupied what function and post, but quite obviously this was
11 wrongly taken note of.
12 Q. Well, what comment do you have to make about an investigator into
13 war crimes recording in a document that somebody held the position of
14 head of security for the supreme headquarters for the corps, and does
15 such a position exist?
16 A. According to my military experience and knowledge, no, it does
18 Q. You told us earlier that it became obvious to you during the
19 course of this discussion that the interpreter was struggling. How did
20 that manifest itself during the course of what was going on?
21 A. Well, I had to repeat things several times, to repeat what I'd
22 said or to wait for the interpreter to finish interpreting, and for the
23 interpreter then to explain to Ms. Gilleece. I saw that this was very
24 difficult and a lot of problems. And working here together with you,
25 when our interpreters and translators, especially at the beginning, began
1 translating things in quite the wrong way.
2 Q. And what about between the interpreter and Ms. Gilleece, did
3 Ms. Gilleece exhibit any signs of frustration or puzzlement?
4 A. Well, I wouldn't put it that way. I felt that there was a lack
5 of interest, generally, as to how the notes were taken without any
6 attempt made at understanding matters and getting to the bottom of
8 Q. Can we go over the page, please, to page 4 in the English but on
9 the same page in B/C/S and look at paragraph 28:
10 "Pandurevic did not receive any orders from the brigade."
11 Did you say anything like that?
12 A. Well, you can say anything at times, one can do that, but this
13 has no meaning, no sense, so I doubt that I could have said anything like
14 that because I'm the commander of one brigade. Now, to receive orders
15 from another brigade, that's nonsensical, no sense to that at all.
16 Q. I mean, if you'd been given the opportunity to read this through,
17 what would you have said about that paragraph to Ms. Gilleece in her
19 A. Well, I would say that this has no sense and that she should try
20 and explain what she meant when she said that. And then if we put our
21 efforts together, we might arrive at the proper formulation of all this.
22 Q. Paragraph 30:
23 "Pandurevic pointed out that on his return from Zepa to Zvornik
24 both his brigade and battalion were jeopardised ..."
25 Does that make any sense to you?
1 A. This part here where it says his brigade and his battalion, I did
2 not have a brigade and a battalion separately, as two separate things.
3 There was a brigade comprising more than one battalion. The rest of the
4 information more or less reflects what was said.
5 Q. Paragraph 31:
6 "Rumours were rampant amongst Pandurevic's troops. It was also
7 being said that Naser Oric was headed towards Pandurevic's position.
8 That rumour created a huge panic amongst Pandurevic's troops. Men were
9 very afraid of Naser Oric. At that time, Oric was some type of legend of
10 unbelievable capabilities. It was hard to keep the men focused, since
11 the rumour of Naser Oric coming paralysed many with fear. The point of
12 the conflict was Selo Baljkovica. Pandurevic arrived there and the
13 conflict continued."
14 What can you tell us about that?
15 A. In any case I respect my opponents, but to ascribe to my opponent
16 supernatural powers, I certainly wouldn't do that. I was referring to
17 operative masking done by the Muslims, or, rather, they were referring to
18 things on the radio network that were not being done on the ground which
19 is where I derive the information that allegedly Naser Oric and a group
20 of his entered the village of Krizevici. But as Naser Oric was referred
21 to later on, when crimes against Serbs were discussed, and that was
22 Ms. Gilleece's main topic, this is probably how she expressed her
23 understanding of what was said.
24 Q. Thank you. You've probably dealt with this question, but what
25 was the focus of her investigation?
1 A. The focus of her investigation were the crimes committed by the
2 forces under the command of Naser Oric, and I think Zivanovic spoke a lot
3 about that.
4 Q. Now, can we look at paragraph 32. And is it correct that you
5 took with you two military textbooks?
6 A. Yes, the ones listed here.
7 Q. And did Ms. Gilleece look at them?
8 A. I think she did. I think she looked at the titles and the
10 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 33:
11 "Pandurevic advised that page 716 of Vojni Leksikon, it states
12 that the zone of intelligence has no other zone of attack."
13 Can you make any sense of that for us, General Pandurevic?
14 A. No, this is absolute nonsense and this is mixing up apples and
16 Q. Did you say anything like that during the course of this meeting?
17 A. No. I tried to show, based on the military lexicon, that some
18 things mentioned in Butler's report were not correct from the aspect of
19 doctrine, which is why I read out from the military lexicon what the zone
20 of responsibility was, what the zone of intelligence responsibility was,
21 and I also mentioned other kinds of zones, but all this has been
22 summarised in this nonsensical sentence.
23 Q. Paragraph 35, it's at the very bottom of page 4 in the English.
24 It's a short paragraph.
25 "Pandurevic stated that none of his reports refer to Muslim
2 Did you say that in this meeting?
3 A. No, I said quite the opposite, that these reports do mention
4 prisoners of war.
5 Q. And what was the point in your telling Ms. Gilleece that?
6 A. Probably it was in the context of our conversation about the fact
7 that everything I did was transparent and that I clearly reported on the
8 events taking place at the time.
9 Q. I mean did she take the trouble to check what you were saying on
10 this point?
11 A. No, she didn't ask for any additional clarification. It was my
12 impression that she did not fully understand the situation.
13 Q. Can we go over the page, please, to page 5 in the English, our
14 paragraph 36.
15 "Pandurevic advised that Rick Butler refers to a handwritten
16 report dated the 15th of July, 1992, at 2000 hours. That report refers
17 to a pig farm near the 4th Battalion. The soldiers of the Muslim 28th
18 Division seized the command post and killed pigs."
19 Did you say anything of the sort to Eileen Gilleece?
20 A. We did have the Butler report in front of us. I referred to
21 statements in that report, and I did not say at all that the pig farm is
22 mentioned in the Butler report because it isn't. But I did mention it in
23 connection with the next paragraph. As an example, how to explain the
24 term "asanacija."
25 Q. Why were you giving that example as an example of "asanacija"?
1 A. I was saying that "asanacija" is everything it really is in
2 military terms, and then I remembered that there really had been pigs
3 there, and to illustrate the point, I said that "asanacija" or
4 sanitization of the terrain included removing carcasses and corpses if
5 any were found on the ground.
6 Q. But were you seeking to explain the report of the 15th of July,
8 A. I think I commented on Mr. Butler's conclusions which I felt were
9 erroneous. I felt that then and I still do now.
10 Q. But were you saying that the use of the word "asanacija" in the
11 report of the 15th of July, 1995, referred to an obligation to clear away
12 pig carcasses?
13 A. No, I didn't say that that was the obligation. I simply gave
14 that as an example to illustrate what the term "asanacija" means.
15 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Yes, it's break time.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. That's perfect. We'll have a 25-minute
17 break now. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
21 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. We were just before the break dealing with the paragraph at the
23 top of page 5 of the English document, our paragraph 36. And it begins:
24 "Pandurevic advised that Rick Butler refers to a handwritten
25 report dated the 15th of July, 1992."
1 The example you gave of pig carcasses having to be removed, when
2 did that occur within the war?
3 A. Well it's true here that we analysed the report of the 15th of
4 July, 1995, which was mentioned in the Butler report, but that report
5 makes no mention of pigs and the removal of their carcasses, but I have
6 gave examples that had happened earlier on in 1992. I remember the
7 village of Jeremici at Snagovo which in 1992 in December was looted and
8 set fire to and the pigs slaughtered, killed, and so I mentioned that
9 example. And I also spoke about asanacija which had been conducted in
10 the Gornja, Kamenica, and Snagovo areas in 1993.
11 Q. Thank you. Amongst the material that you had with you, did you
12 have a copy of Richard Butler's report or reports?
13 A. I had a copy of that report.
14 Q. And was it with you at the Peti Puk restaurant on the 2nd of
15 October, 2001?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And as part of the discussion, did you take it out?
18 A. Well, the report was on the table and certain parts of that
19 report we analysed, especially those that I considered had drawn the
20 wrong conclusions and the fact that I had seen intercepts in that report,
21 and that was the first time I came across that form of document.
22 Q. And when you say you analysed it, did you have the document in
23 Serbian or in English or in both?
24 A. The Serbian version it was, or, rather, it was in Serbian, and
25 the version was Mr. Butler's in the Serbian language.
1 Q. And just please would you describe as it were the process of your
2 discussing paragraphs of the Butler report with Eileen Gilleece?
3 A. We looked at individual paragraphs or, rather, I read out some of
4 them and in the footnotes, it mentioned the documents that it referred to
5 and then I would state my opinions and give my comments on what it said
6 in those paragraphs.
7 Q. And what -- was the document physically available to the
8 interpreter to look at to help her translate what was in it?
9 A. As far as I remember, no, she didn't use the document. I was
10 talking and she just interpreted what I was saying.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to go to the last page in English. But
12 before we do this, this better not be broadcast because it contains
13 Mr. Sarapa's current telephone number, and I wouldn't want to involve his
14 number being broadcast worldwide so if we can keep that secret for now.
15 Can we go to the last page, please.
16 And I just want to look at a couple of paragraphs of
17 Ms. Gilleece's note to file here. And the first is paragraph 48, which
18 is the second paragraph on that page which reads:
19 "In the afternoon of the 15th of July, when Pandurevic arrived in
20 Zvornik." Then the sentence stops.
21 "During combat action on the 16th of July, the security advisor
22 had heard rumours from others that POWs detained in the schools had been
23 killed. Those prisoners, the ones in the schools, came under the
24 authority of the Supreme Command and the corps command."
25 What was it that you were trying to tell Ms. Gilleece that
1 appears to be noted in that paragraph?
2 A. I was trying to explain precisely what I was talking about here
3 several days ago, that Mr. Obrenovic on the 16th, in the afternoon, or
4 towards the evening, conveyed the information about the fact that the
5 POWs had been brought and executed, and I wanted to say that in the same
6 shape and form as I recounted it here in the courtroom.
7 Q. This might actually be a matter of guess work, but there is a
8 sentence there that's incomplete:
9 "In the afternoon of the 15th of July when Pandurevic arrived in
11 Did you link what you told her about the information you got from
12 Obrenovic on the 16th with anything on the afternoon of the 15th?
13 A. I was talking about -- clearly about -- I said clearly when I
14 received information about the POWs and the executions and that was on
15 the 16th, and I received that from Dragan Obrenovic. And I said that on
16 the 15th I had arrived in Zvornik, and that on the 15th I was at the
17 forward command post.
18 Q. And did you tell her anything about information you received on
19 the afternoon of the 15th during the course of this meeting?
20 A. Well, I certainly spoke about my activities on the 15th too
21 because it was a chronological sequence of events, that I met with Dragan
22 Obrenovic at that meeting in the command and then went to the forward
23 command post.
24 Q. Very well. But can you make any sense of that partial sentence:
25 "In the afternoon of the 15th of July when Pandurevic arrived in
2 A. Well, obviously not everything was recorded here that I had said,
3 and I was talking about what I said here. I said then what I said here.
4 I don't want to repeat everything I said about what happened on the 15th
5 of July when I returned to Zvornik.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, can we go down now, then, please, to a short
7 paragraph, paragraph 52 which reads:
8 "Pandurevic then asked, 'Who was able to bring three and a half
9 thousand people and accommodate them?'"
10 Can you help as to what that might refer to from the discussion
11 with Ms. Gilleece in October 2001?
12 A. This referred to part of the Butler report where the interim
13 combat report was quoted of the 18th of July, but only part of it was
14 conveyed here and in incomplete form.
15 Q. And -- because it appears as though this is a direct quotation
16 from you that you are saying to Ms. Gilleece: "Who was able to bring
17 three and a half thousand people and accommodate them?" Did you say
19 A. I seem to remember that in that interim combat report of mine
20 that I said that I failed to understand how somebody could have brought
21 them, so not as it says here in an inverted commas, in quotation marks.
22 Q. And when you referred to the interim combat report of the 18th of
23 July, was that during the period of this discussion when you were reading
24 from paragraphs of Richard Butler's report?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, General Pandurevic, the document we have in front of us
2 comprises six pages. Over what period of time was the information being
3 given that is recorded in this note to file?
4 A. Well, my presentation and giving of information lasted at least
5 an hour and a half, plus various things General Zivanovic added, but I,
6 myself, took at least an hour and a half to say all those things.
7 Q. And what was the major part of your presentation, as you've
8 called it?
9 A. Well, my presentation was about the events of July 1995, and then
10 afterwards we discussed the events of 1993, which was what Ms. Gilleece
11 was interested in. And from time to time, General Zivanovic would step
12 in and mention some events dating to 1993.
13 Q. It's probably my fault for not being specific enough, but in the
14 original English version, because Eileen Gilleece would have written this
15 document in English, her notes concerning your return to Zvornik, your
16 meeting with Dragan Obrenovic, your meeting with Brano Grujic, your
17 contact with Semso Muminovic, your description of the military situation
18 on the ground, your discovery about POWs in schools, your descriptions of
19 the people you found out were involved, and your comments about the
20 security organ and Naser Oric cover 28 lines. How long did you talk
21 about those things?
22 A. Much, much longer than has been recorded here, I don't want to
23 hazard a guess as to how many pages, but much, much more.
24 Q. You've had the opportunity to consider this record of that day.
25 You were there. How does it represent the discussion you had with
1 Eileen Gilleece on the 2nd of October?
2 A. Well, I'd like to remind you of the circumstances under which all
3 this took place, that the discussion was under unusual circumstances with
4 interruptions by other participants from time to time, with an
5 inconsistent interpretation, notes jotted down from time to time, and I
6 have to say, unfortunately, under the effects of alcohol. So I didn't
7 achieve the goal that I wanted to achieve which was that in 2001, my
8 words be recorded about the events dating back to July 1995 in the way in
9 which I saw them and my -- based on my knowledge of them. And I said
10 that in -- and I said then what I said during my testimony here, for the
11 most part, so that this report is of crucial importance, but it does not
12 reflect or, rather, some crucial matters it reflects in quite the wrong
13 way. And therefore, I cannot consider it to be a reflection of what was
14 discussed at the meeting.
15 Q. As a result of the information that you were given at the end of
16 the meeting, did you have any contact with Team 9 of the Office of the
18 A. As far as I understand it, Ms. Gilleece was Team 9, and she
19 promised that she would convey to Mr. McCloskey's Team 6 this
20 information. Perhaps I'm wrong.
21 Q. You are correct, it's my mistake. Did you have any contact with
22 Team 6?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was that with and what did it involve?
25 A. I was promised by Ms. Gilleece that this information would be
1 sent on to Team 6 in one way or another, but General Zivanovic provided
2 me with a telephone number with Mr. McCloskey's telephone number or that
3 of his office, I'm not quite sure which, and after a certain amount of
4 time had gone by from my mobile phone, I rang the number that I had been
5 given and I think Mr. McCloskey replied, answered the phone, and I gave
6 him my mobile phone number so that he could call me and have the OTP pay
7 for the call, and then we had that conversation. And it was our first
8 conversation, the first conversation that we'd ever had.
9 Q. Can you place that in time in relation to the meeting you've just
10 been telling us about?
11 A. Well I'm not quite sure how much time has gone -- went by but not
12 much. We talked, and I expressed the wish to meet Mr. McCloskey in
13 person, if possible, and he for his part explained to me what his
14 position was and his role was and the job he did, what his work was and
15 his responsibilities in that respect, and that he would also like to have
16 that meeting take place. I think that -- I thought that this meeting
17 would -- or conversation would take place in Belgrade, and I think that
18 after that Mr. Sarapa talked to Mr. McCloskey. If I'm wrong, either one
19 of them can put me right.
20 Q. Did you only have one conversation with Mr. McCloskey or more
21 than one?
22 A. I think we had another conversation, a second one, a relatively
23 long one, and I think that Mr. McCloskey told me at that time that
24 probably nothing would come of our meeting. If I'm not mistaken, he said
25 that the Chief Prosecutor, who was then Ms. Del Ponte, was not in
1 agreement with such a meeting and either directly or indirectly
2 Mr. McCloskey let me know that I was in trouble, in other words, that I
3 was an accused, and our conversation ended with some usual courtesies.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, you've told us that reading Mr. Butler's report
5 dramatically improved your knowledge of events in July of 1995. What, if
6 anything, particularly surprised you when you first read Mr. Butler's
8 A. In any case, I was surprised by the amount of information and the
9 number of documents quoted in that report. I was surprised by the
10 overall picture of events which could be gleaned from the report, and I
11 was also surprised by particular conclusions reached by Mr. Butler based
12 on his own interpretation of the documents and the doctrine of the JNA
13 and the VRS.
14 Q. But before you read Mr. Butler's report, what had been your
15 understanding of the extent of the involvement of elements of the Zvornik
17 A. I was convinced that no members of the Zvornik Brigade had
18 participated in capturing prisoners of war and bringing them to the
19 Zvornik area, their detention and execution. Apart from the information
20 that Drago Nikolic, together with five or six policemen, had been
21 designated to meet the column which was supposed to arrive and
22 information that an engineering machine from the engineering company had
23 participated in burying those who had been shot.
24 Q. Did you give any orders for any unit or element of the Zvornik
25 Brigade to participate in the operation to detain, kill, or bury
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you authorise anybody to use units or elements of the Zvornik
4 Brigade in any such operation?
5 A. I did not authorise anyone to do that.
6 Q. How did you react to details in the Butler report when you read
7 them insofar as they related to units and elements of the Zvornik
9 A. Quite simply I was surprised at the amount of detail found in the
10 report and the manner in which the information had been obtained. I
11 couldn't believe that I did not have this information before, if what the
12 report said was correct in relation to the Zvornik Brigade. I think that
13 some conclusions in the report are generalised to such an extent that if
14 one man from the Zvornik Brigade participated in something, the report
15 would say that the battalion or the Zvornik Brigade had participated, but
16 that's a big difference. There were 5.000 or 6.000 soldiers in the area
17 and it would be impossible for the commander to know what each one of
18 these men was doing.
19 Q. Well that brings me on to that. In July of 1995, what was the
20 manpower of the Zvornik Brigade?
21 A. I think that according to the list, there were a little over
23 Q. And how many of them would have been on-duty reservists at any
24 one time?
25 A. As we said, almost all of them were reservists. That is the
1 period when they had to be present at the positions 100 percent with the
2 exception of some individuals who may have been absent for short periods.
3 Q. And over what sort of geographical area were these men displaced?
4 A. It was quite a large geographical area in view of the blockades
5 organised to stop the 28th Division. There were units deployed in the
6 southern part of the municipality near Drinjaca, then across Snagovo,
7 Crni Vrh, all the way up to Memici, and then to the north, up to the
8 border of the municipality at Ugljevik which was some 40 kilometres north
9 of Zvornik.
10 Q. And if we concentrate for just a moment on the battalions, you
11 may have already told us this, but we'll revisit it to get the theme,
12 where were they drawn from?
13 A. If we exclude the 7th Battalion which was in the Memici and
14 Pandurica area, they mostly consisted of soldiers whose families had fled
15 from Central Bosnia. The other battalions were from the immediate
16 vicinity of the villages they were defending.
17 Q. And what were their historical origins?
18 A. The soldiers had been born there. They lived there, and they
19 waged war in that area.
20 Q. I didn't mean that. I meant, what was the historical origin of
21 the battalion as a formation? What was its forerunner?
22 A. Every battalion and every organisational unit of the Zvornik
23 Brigade was preceded by village units organised spontaneously which grew
24 out of the village guards, and these were composed from the local
25 population. Later on, they acquired the form of a military unit from
1 platoon and company level up to battalion level, but with a very loose
2 internal organisation.
3 Q. I'd like to consider with you now just a few of the allegations
4 made in this case about certain elements of the Zvornik Brigade, and
5 we'll start, if we may, with the 1st Battalion. Just remind us what
6 historically had been the origins of the 1st Battalion.
7 A. When I arrived in the Zvornik Brigade, that battalion had a
8 number either 11th or 7th, I'm not sure. In other words, there was a
9 battalion composed of soldiers or, rather, men from the village of Pilica
10 and the surrounding hamlets in Bare and some other villages, and
11 immediately to its left there was another battalion composed of people
12 from the villages of Gornji and Donji Lokanj so that in 1993 as compared
13 to 1995, there were two battalions referred to as the Pilicski Battalion
14 and Lokanjski Battalion respectively. In 1995 all this was one battalion
15 and its command was in the village of Manojlovici some 10 kilometres away
16 from the village of Pilica.
17 Q. Did the members of that battalion always acknowledge they were
18 part of the 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade?
19 A. Probably they were aware of that. That was how they were
20 formally referred to in the records.
21 Q. Were they, even by 1995, referred to in any other way?
22 A. As I said, they were given names after the villages from which
23 the largest numbers of men came, and there was always a lot of rivalry
24 between these villages. A great number of men from the village of Lokanj
25 were working abroad, and with their donations they helped the men
1 defending that village at the expense of the other part of the battalion
2 which came from Pilica, so that the commander of that battalion had a
3 difficult job making all this into a single unit.
4 Q. How far was the battalion command of the 1st Battalion from the
5 command of the Zvornik Brigade?
6 A. I think some 35 or 40 kilometres away.
7 Q. Now, I want to look at, as I say, a couple of allegations made in
8 this case and see if you can help us with them. And I want to start by
9 looking at the earlier duty operations officers' log book which I don't
10 think is the one in front of you, P377. And you will need to look at
11 page 745, and the rest of us will have to look in e-court at page 127.
12 I'm just waiting for the English version to come up into e-court.
13 Thank you.
14 There appears to be on this page a series of orders for the
15 battalions. I'm not concerned with the top four lines, it's what's
16 beneath that. What's being recorded here, General Pandurevic?
17 A. The duty operations officer on the 14th of July is recording
18 orders by Dragan Obrenovic as to how many people each battalion should
19 set aside and up to what time and in what place to send people pursuant
20 to his orders.
21 Q. Thank you. And could we just concentrate on the entry relating
22 to the 1st Battalion, 25 soldiers by 1100 hours sent to Kamenica. We
23 know where that is. Djevanje Rijeka settlement, where is that?
24 A. That is south of Zvornik towards Drinjaca, some 10 kilometres
25 away, I think.
1 Q. And just to complete the entry, "transport tomorrow SDO." What
2 does that mean?
3 A. It means that in the course of the following day, SDO which is an
4 abbreviation for a dry daily meal, that is to say meals for soldiers that
5 they're given when they are in the field.
6 Q. Can we just go forward a couple of pages, please, to your 747,
7 our page 129. And here, four lines from the top we see:
8 "1st Battalion, 25 men deploy Djevanje Kruske."
9 Is that the same area we were talking about in the first entry we
10 looked at?
11 A. Yes, the same order is being repeated that these 25 men should be
12 deployed or sent to the area of Djevanje Kruske which is the same place.
13 Q. And because we can't see the date on this page, you've got the
14 book in front of you, can you confirm for us that this is another record
15 on the 14th of July?
16 A. Yes, this is still the same date, the 14th.
17 Q. Now, can we go forward please to your page 750 our page 132. Are
18 you there, General Pandurevic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It's the very top entry. TG, does that mean telegram?
21 A. Telegram, yes.
22 Q. From Pelemis, who is Pelemis?
23 A. Pelemis was the deputy commander of the 1st Battalion.
24 Q. Has problems with personnel, what's that all about?
25 A. That was probably -- that probably referred to the people that
1 were supposed to be sent to the Djevanje Kruske area because that was the
2 problem with that particular battalion when men had to be sent outside
3 their defence area.
4 Q. Can we go forward, please, to page 775 in the hard copy document
5 and page 157 in the e-court version.
6 And again, General Pandurevic, we've moved forward quite a long
7 way, so can you help us as to what date we're talking about here?
8 A. According to these notes in the notebook it is the 17th of July,
10 Q. Thank you. The last entry:
11 "The platoon deployed on the Djevanje Kruske line returned from
12 that position."
13 How big is a platoon?
14 A. Well that was the platoon that was sent earlier on on the 14th,
15 probably, 25 men, and they returned on the 17th to their own area.
16 Q. Well, we'll come to that. Can we have a look at P295, please,
17 pages 11 to 14. Can we just move the document to the left so that we can
18 identify the vehicle and the driver to start off with. What's a TAM 80?
19 A. It's a type of vehicle and it was manufactured by the Maribor
20 factory and TAM
21 Q. And what might it be used for?
22 A. Well, for the transport of men, food, lighter loads, up to two
23 tons or three tons, I'm not quite sure.
24 Q. And do you know who Brano Bogicevic?
25 A. According to what it says here, it's the driver of that vehicle
1 but I don't know that man personally. I think I saw him when he came
2 here, if I remember correctly, if that was the man.
3 Q. You mean as a witness?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can we have a look at the second page of this document
6 please, and there's little point in putting the English up. We might as
7 well all just look at the B/C/S and have it blown up as big as possible.
8 That's excellent, thank you very much.
9 Now, can you find the entry for the 17th of July in relation to
10 that vehicle? I think you'll find it three from the bottom. Can we move
11 it just a little bit to the right. No, other way. No, it won't go.
12 Can you see in the eighth column from the left the number 25?
13 A. Yes, I can see that, although this 1795 where it says, it says:
14 "SD Standard, Orahovac Standard, Kamenica Standard, Vjenacac
15 Standard, Tren Standard."
16 I'm not sure -- there was another schedule showing Standard
17 Djevanje, Kruske, Bare, Pilica.
18 Q. Can we go forward another page in this document, please.
19 The ERN we're looking for is 556. Yes, that's it. Thank you.
20 Now, can we have a look at the corresponding entry for the 17th
21 of July for that vehicle. Can you see the 17th of July?
22 A. Yes, I can, and it says there Standard Kruske, Bare, Pilica. And
23 over here, 25 tons, but that must have been a mistake, it must mean 25
24 men because this vehicle can't carry a load of 25 tons.
25 Q. Where is Kruske?
1 A. Well that's the place, Djevanje Kruske, where that platoon was
2 from the 1st Battalion deployed on the 14th and returning on the 17th.
3 Q. And where is Bare Pilica?
4 A. Bare are further off from Pilica, some 7 or 8 kilometres on in
5 the area of 1st Battalion, and that's where the logistics of that
6 battalion was located and they were probably taken there.
7 Q. Who were taken there?
8 A. The platoon from the 1st Battalion was taken which was in the
9 Kruske area.
10 Q. I might as well put this to you: It was suggested by Mr. Thayer,
11 I think, to Brano Bogicevic that he was taking 25 men from the 1st
12 Battalion to take part in executions. What does the succession of
13 documents we've looked at suggest?
14 A. These documents show that this platoon was on its way back from
15 the village of Kruske going to Bare, that it was taken from the 1st
16 Battalion, or, rather, had it been taken from the 1st Battalion to take
17 part in the executions, it would have said Bare-Pilica or Lokanj-Pilica,
18 and Kruske would not have been mentioned at all. But this is quite the
19 opposite, the platoon was being returned to the area of battalion, and it
20 did not take part in any execution.
21 Q. Let's have another look at one of Mr. Thayer's theories, shall
22 we. Can we look at P377, page 761?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we're going to be talking like that, I think
25 we better be reading the question and putting it in context because I
1 think he's -- my memory is that he's not saying what Mr. Thayer was
2 saying, but I won't get into it, but I think we're safe -- on safer
3 ground if we get a little closer to the question.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
5 MR. HAYNES: I'm moving on.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 MR. HAYNES: Can we look at page 761 in your document, and for
8 the rest of us, page 143 of P377.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the page.
10 MR. HAYNES:
11 Q. Can we look halfway down the page and firstly can you flip back
12 for us and tell us what date we're talking about?
13 A. These are notes of the operations duty officer which he started
14 to enter on the 15th of July, and these requests here are always found at
15 the end of the notes of the duty officer who had been on duty on that
16 day. They can be entered either late in the evening of the same day or
17 early in the morning of the following day. Looking at these requests
18 here, and the way they are entered, they might have been entered in the
19 afternoon of the 15th or early in the morning of the 16th. In any case,
20 these are requests to the operations duty officer for the 15th of July.
21 Q. Thank you. And we see halfway down our page 143:
22 "The 1st Battalion 50 litres of oil and 20 litres of gasoline for
23 transport of troops to Kula and 10 crates of 7.62-millimetre ammunition."
24 How many bullets are there in a crate, General Pandurevic?
25 A. To the best of my recollection, there were two kinds of crates
1 for 7.62 millimetre bullets. There was a crate of 1.260 bullets or a
2 crate of 1.140 bullets, so this would have been at least 11.000 bullets.
3 Q. Can we go forward, please, in the log book to page 767.
4 A. Yes, I see it.
5 Q. The -- sorry, the page in e-court is 149. 1st Battalion a series
6 of requests there, just the same. The 1st Battalion request, request
7 from the previous day. Firstly, can you confirm what date this is?
8 A. The 16th of July, and these requests are addressed to the
9 operations duty officer at around 1600 hours. The 1st Battalion is
10 requesting the same thing they requested the previous day, which means
11 that none of it had been delivered.
12 Q. Thank you. Can we move on now to discuss the R Battalion. And I
13 want to look at page 157 again, something we've just looked at, 775 for
14 you, General Pandurevic.
15 Now, you will recall when we were discussing the meaning of
16 "obezbedjenja terena" that we went through a great many documents dealing
17 with the mobilisation and deployment of the R Battalion, and I'm not
18 going to go through all of that again, and you've already dealt with
19 this. But where we see:
20 "The R Battalion took up positions between the quarry in Grbavci
21 and Crni Vrh, 163 conscripts and 80 conscripts from Bratunac."
22 What day does that refer to?
23 A. The 17th of July when the R Battalion was deployed along the road
24 at the Crni Vrh quarry, providing security for the unhindered passage of
1 Q. And in relation to the number of men mobilised, what proportion
2 was that?
3 A. I don't remember how many of those men had been called up by the
4 Ministry of Defence and what number responded, but we can see there were
5 two companies plus this company from Bratunac so that would have been
6 equivalent to a light battalion without reinforcements.
7 Q. Probably my fault again, General Pandurevic, but a number of men
8 were mobilised, were they all given the same task or were they used for
9 different tasks?
10 A. It says here R Battalion, the battalion was issued with a
11 specific task as a unit.
12 Q. It is specifically inferred in the indictment that members of the
13 R Battalion were involved in executions; is that correct?
14 A. No. This battalion received the task as we saw earlier in this
15 notebook, and now we see that it is carrying out that task.
16 Q. I just want to ask you two or three questions before we finish
17 today about one other unit. Who had the authority to deploy military
19 A. I did, as did the Chief of Staff and the Chief of Security.
20 Q. Did you authorise or know about at the time the deployment of any
21 military policemen at the schools at Grbavci or Rocevici?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, can we get a time to that. I think
23 it's pretty important.
24 MR. HAYNES:
25 Q. When did you first know about the possibility that military
1 policemen of the Zvornik Brigade had been deployed at Orahovac and
2 Rocevici on the 14th of July 1995?
3 A. As I said, on the 16th of July, in the afternoon, I learned from
4 Dragan Obrenovic about the events at Orahovac, and he told me that at the
5 request of Drago Nikolic, he had put five or six military policemen and
6 Jasikovac, the company commander, at his disposal and Drago could issue
7 them with tasks. I did not know what these men did or what Drago Nikolic
8 did, but listening to the testimonies of some of these policemen who
9 testified here, I have a completely different picture in my mind.
10 Q. Who kept the attendance rosters for military policemen?
11 A. At company level, the attendance rosters were kept, and this was
12 done both in the police company, engineer's company, signals company, and
13 all the other companies in the battalions.
14 Q. So where does that mean physically they were kept and who was
15 responsible for keeping them?
16 A. In the company command, there is a person called the company
17 record keeper who maintains a list of the men and an overview of their
18 engagements, and he reports on that to the company commander. All this
19 is regulated through the daily order issued by the company commander a
20 day in advance, and it's read out when the unit is lined up every morning
21 during the line-up.
22 Q. Did you instruct or order anybody to alter the attendance records
23 of the military police unit?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. We've talked a lot about what you discovered in 2001. When did
1 you first learn that such a thing might have been done in Zvornik?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's an ambiguous question. Whether or not an
3 order to do it might have been done or whether or not it had actually
4 been done. I think we need to know. Those are two very different
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes. Shall we leave it to tomorrow?
7 MR. HAYNES: I'll think about it overnight.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll stop here for today. We'll continue tomorrow
9 morning at 9.00. Thank you.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of
12 February, 2009 at 9.00 a.m.