Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31940

 1                           Monday, 23 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Miletic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.  Madam Registrar, could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, this is the

 9     IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning everybody.  I notice the absence of

11     General Miletic, I understand that a waiver is on its way, is indisposed

12     today.

13             Representation, I only notice the absence of Mr. Sarapa,

14     Mr. Josse.  I think that's it.

15             Good morning to you, Mr. Pandurevic.

16                           WITNESS:  VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  And good morning to you, Mr. Ostojic.  You may

20     proceed with your cross-examination.  In the meantime, the sixth

21     Pandurevic motion for addition of documents to the 65 ter list has not

22     been opposed by the Prosecution and it is hereby being orally granted.

23     Thank you.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

Page 31941

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pandurevic.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   Sir, I still do not believe you when you tell us that you opened

 4     the column on the 16th and 17th of July, 1995, because you were either a

 5     nice commander or, as you say, a humanitarian, and to go through that

 6     point as we ended Friday but were unable to complete, I want us to go

 7     through, in particular, three pieces of evidence with you.

 8             First, Lazar Ristic, do you remember that he testified in this

 9     case?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Can you remind us what position he held in July of 1995?

12        A.   He stood in for the battalion commander.

13        Q.   Which battalion?

14        A.   The 4th Infantry Battalion of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

15        Q.   Now, when Mr. Lazar Ristic was describing the events as they

16     unfolded with a Bosnian Muslim column, do you remember that he painted

17     the description from his personal observations that there were in fact as

18     he says, 32, 84-millimetre machine-guns that he observed, many soldiers

19     within the column that passed through.  Do you remember that?

20             And I could -- I apologise, just so we can have it for the record

21     it's on his trial transcript page 10180, line 4, through 10181, line 1,

22     we'll be referencing.

23        A.   I don't remember all the details of his testimony.  I have a

24     rough idea, rather.  These are model 84 machine-guns and the calibre is

25     762 millimetres.

Page 31942

 1        Q.   I'm not asking you that, I'm asking you do you remember that he

 2     testified that the Bosnian Muslim column that was passing through after a

 3     cease-fire was agreed to was actually very well armed?  Do you remember

 4     that?

 5        A.   I remember him testifying about everything that he saw.  Whether

 6     you could qualify it as being well armed, maybe it's your conclusion.

 7        Q.   Do you remember when he was giving testimony under oath saying

 8     that there was a captured Muslim officer who was ultimately returned and

 9     that that Muslim officer had seen that the Zvornik Brigade and the

10     4th Battalion was out of ammunition because while that Muslim officer was

11     there, people were coming in and asking for ammunition?  Do you remember

12     that testimony?

13        A.   Not specifically.  This battalion was defending an area in the

14     width of 6 kilometres, and you cannot judge the whole situation of the

15     battalion from only one point.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at what he says on transcript page 10155,

17     line 9 through 10157, line 9.  He says:

18             "Having seen that we were out of ammunition because people were

19     coming in and asking for ammunition and they attacked us, we assumed that

20     we unable to continue defending ourselves after about an hour of combat,

21     thus we pulled back towards," and there was an interruption by the

22     interpreter, your counsel continued to ask, "Would you repeat the name of

23     where you drew back to."

24             Answer by Mr. Ristic:  "We withdrew towards the link of the 4th

25     and the 6th Battalion going from Baljkovica Rijeka to Parlog.  That was

Page 31943

 1     the position of the 1st Company of the 4th Battalion."  Do you remember

 2     that testimony?

 3        A.   If you read it as it is, I have no doubts that these are his

 4     words, but one can see that he was talking to a group who was at the

 5     command post of the battalion that he, himself, had said had evacuated

 6     earlier.  Therefore, the 4th Battalion did not withdrew or run out of

 7     ammunition but that was in fact a group that was together with Lazar

 8     Ristic in that area.

 9        Q.   Let's talk about a witness that we started to on Friday, and that

10     is Semso Muminovic.  Now, I've read portions of his interview for you

11     with the Prosecution and you disagree completely with his recollection as

12     to the reasons why the column was -- or the corridor was ultimately open;

13     is that accurate?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  And if we can go into private session,

16     Mr. President.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session for a short while,

18     please.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31944











11 Pages 31944-31948 redacted. Private session.















Page 31949

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, I'd like now to skip -- staying with the same

19     topic of the purported purpose for which the corridor was opened for the

20     column of Bosnian Muslims to pass.  I'd like to focus on the testimony of

21  Colonel Sladojevic who was one of the three colonels from the Main Staff who

22  visited the Zvornik Brigade on the 17th of July, 1995; do you remember that?

23        A.   Yes, I remember those testimonies.

24        Q.   Now help me understand or follow your logic as you heard him

25   testify.  Did he -- nobody punished you, reprimanded you or disciplined

Page 31950

 1     you as a result of the actions you took in opening a corridor and letting

 2     the column of Bosnian Muslims pass; correct?

 3        A. As far as I can remember, in Mr. Sladojevic's statement, which,

 4   however, he didn't mention while giving evidence, there was a proposal to

 5   remove Pandurevic from his post; however, no disciplinary measures were

 6   taken against me later on.  However, the entire attitude towards me later

 7   on was such that I was never formally punished but due to the ban on

 8   education and appointment to appropriate positions imposed by my superior

 9   in the army, I was very much hindered. And the big question was whether I

10   could become a General or not.

11        Q.   Well, I think that you can have that position if you'd like but

12     answer this:  Do you think that the Main Staff and those three colonels

13     didn't punish, reprimand you, because they thought that your decision was

14     a humanitarian decision in opening the corridor?

15        A.   I don't know what they thought.  We tried to explain the

16     situation to them so that this explanation would coincide with our

17     interim report dated the 16th.  We wanted to make them understand that we

18     acted in a proper way.

19        Q.   Let's just back up a bit, sir.  Opening the corridor was contrary

20     to your mission as you have testified; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And it was contrary to your mission to let the Bosnian Muslim

23     column pass through with weapons; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And despite that, you were promoted in December of 1995; correct?

Page 31951

 1        A.   Yes, for the results achieved in the Krajina.  Later on, that was

 2     disputed and I was dubbed the main traitor who brought the fall of the

 3     Krajina about.  First, they gave me the rank of Colonel, and then six

 4     months later, they accused me of being the main culprit for the fall of

 5     Krajina.  You can find it in the materials here.

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Pandurevic.  I'm not that concerned about Krajina

 7     right now, nor with your testimony.  What I want to focus on, though, is

 8     Sladojevic, Trkulja and the other member of the Main Staff who came and

 9     visited you.  You remember in his testimony, actually, which is on

10     page 11380, lines 7 through 22, that Mr. Sladojevic, Colonel Sladojevic

11     explains that as they were driving up with Trkulja they were discussing

12     what, if any, action to take against you because you had disobeyed the

13     order of Krstic and it was contrary to the mission for opening the

14     corridor; but when they came to where you were standing on the 17th and

15     they observed the Bosnian Muslims who were passing through the corridor,

16     they agreed that it would have created havoc and you would have suffered

17     great losses of your men if you engaged this Bosnian Muslim column.  In

18     fact, given what Lazar Ristic said that there were 34 or 32,

19     84-millimetre machine-guns, that was the real reason why the column was

20     opened and that was why you were never punished, disciplined or otherwise

21     sanctioned.  Isn't that true?

22        A.   Let's start this from this last issue that you mentioned, 32 or

23     34 machine-guns.  Did they have ammunition, if they were engaged in

24     combat from Srebrenica since 10th of July?  Second question, the way I

25     acted at the time was something that was driving me by humanitarian

Page 31952

 1     reasons.  I wanted to protect lives both of my soldiers and the enemy

 2     soldiers.

 3             After the corridor had been opened and during the passage of the

 4     column, I could have accomplished the mission that I was sent to do from

 5     Zvornik.  I didn't do that and this is where I see my humanitarian

 6     action.

 7             Maybe somebody in my place wouldn't act in the same way.  I

 8     remembered the proposal made by Mr. Borovcanin on the -- at the meeting

 9     of the 15th in the command and I said, Okay, we have another proposal and

10     if there are any problems, this man is going to support me and testify in

11     my favour.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  Can the interpreters turn off their mike, please.

13        Q.   Sir, we know from that testimony that you had given earlier when

14     describing that 15th July meeting that you described yourself as being

15     very hands-on, and you said at that time that you wanted to see for

16     yourself, hear for yourself, have a complete understanding for yourself

17     as to what was going on with respect to the activities in or around the

18     1st Brigade.  You took that action as it may result to the column but you

19     failed to take that action as it may result to the POWs that were in and

20     around that area; is that fair?

21        A.   I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.

22        Q.   Let me then give it to you from your words directly, sir.  On the

23     22 -- I'm sorry.  On the 2nd of February, 2009, at page 30963, you were

24     describing July 15th, 1995, when you came to the command post at

25     Zvornik Brigade and you described how you cut the discussions short.  And

Page 31953

 1     then you were asked a question on lines 14:


 3             "Why did you not feel able to entertain the suggestion that the

 4     forces of the 28th Division should be let to pass through at that stage?

 5             Answer by you sir which follows on lines 16 through 23 is as

 6     follows:  "I had quite a lot of wartime experience as regards the

 7     information coming on the enemy coming in, and the information I trusted

 8     most was the information I obtained personally and convinced myself on

 9     the ground that it was true.  It would have been irresponsible if the

10     task I had been issued by General Krstic was changed by me in the office

11     without my having gone out on the ground and seen for myself what the

12     situation was.  At that point in time I didn't want to accept any other

13     suggestions."

14             Do you remember giving that testimony?

15        A.   I remember and I stand by what I said, but I would like to add to

16     what I said previously.  I don't know if anybody at that moment or when

17     they came at the command and heard that proposal would have automatically

18     acted upon that proposal because Krstic or somebody else would have

19     automatically been informed that I had not even tried to accomplish the

20     task that was given to me.  I -- or that I rather immediately did

21     something completely different and that would have immediately qualified

22     me as a traitor.

23        Q.   Well, being such a hands-on commander, when you were given

24     information about the POWs, why didn't you go out to the ground and see

25     for yourself and obtain the information for yourself and that the

Page 31954

 1     information that you would trust is only that information that you can

 2     personally observe and convince yourself that that information was true

 3     or false?  Why didn't you do that with respect to the POWs when you

 4     purportedly obtained some information?

 5        A.   We are talking about two completely different types of

 6     information here.  I'm talking about the information that concerned the

 7     front-line, the theatre of war, the information about intentions of the

 8     enemy because this information is usually blown out of proportion, the

 9     information about the power of the enemy.  When it comes to the prisoners

10     of war and the information about them, it was not them that I was sent

11     from Zepa to Zvornik before that, and the Zvornik Brigade was not put in

12     charge of the prisoners of war.  That's why I did not seek this kind of

13     information actively.  And this type of information could have been

14     provided by those who were not members of the Zvornik Brigade and who did

15     with those people what they did.

16             It never occurred to me to seek such information from them.

17        Q.   Let's turn the topic to Dragan Obrenovic for a second.  You

18     stated on page 31524, lines 8 through 16, and you're speaking about

19     yourself here, sir:

20             "I will never understand why he," and in parentheses I added

21     Dragan Obrenovic because that's who you were talking about.  So "I will

22     never understand why he, Dragan Obrenovic, changed his opinion and why he

23     decided to take that responsibility upon himself."

24             Do you remember giving that testimony, sir?  And to just give a

25     little background you were telling us how during a meeting with -- during

Page 31955

 1     the interviews Dragan Obrenovic had with Mr. McCloskey, at one point, he

 2     denied involvement and then ultimately, he acknowledged and admitted the

 3     Zvornik Brigade and his personal involvement in those he executions and

 4     burials.  So I'll give it to you again, sir, at page 31524.

 5             "I will never understand why he, Dragan Obrenovic, changed his

 6     opinion and why he decided to take that responsibility upon himself."

 7             Do you stand by that as well, sir?

 8        A.   Let me explain, Mr. Ostojic.

 9        Q.   How about you just answer my question.  Do you still stand by

10     that?

11        A.   Well, I was going to answer that.  I do stand by that with an

12     addition.  If you look at all the statements issued by Mr. Dragan

13     Obrenovic including what he has -- he had said to me personally, nothing

14     pointed to the fact that he may have been involved in this type of

15     business.  When he provided his statement about the facts and when he

16     provided his statement and explained his statement about the facts, one

17     could see that he was going between two different things.  He would say

18     yes, the Zvornik Brigade was in charge and on other occasions, he would

19     say no.

20             I don't know who influenced him but I can't understand this

21     slalom of his, and this is the answer that I am providing.  I'm not

22     talking about his responsibility.  If he believes that he was responsible

23     then I'm sure he was responsible as he is not a child.  He can speak for

24     himself.

25        Q.   I know that.  That's why I was taken aback by your comment a

Page 31956

 1     little bit, sir.  But as you sit here today under oath, Dragan Obrenovic

 2     has, under oath, admitted and is paying a price with his liberty of 17

 3     years of his specific involvement in Orahovac, the way he commanded and

 4     ordered executions, as well as in Petkovci and Pilica.  Do you dispute

 5     any of that?  He's saying, sir, and he's paying with 17 years of his

 6     liberty that, I did order it, I did control those men, they were men

 7     under my command.  He acknowledges that to this day.  Do you have any

 8     doubt whatsoever that the Zvornik Brigade was actually involved in the

 9     Orahovac, Petkovci, and Pilica executions?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment before you answer.

11             Mr. Haynes.

12             MR. HAYNES:  There is a lot of flower around the question but the

13     question in essence is, Do you agree Dragan Obrenovic is guilty, which is

14     not a question for this witness.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, I don't see the flower at all, quite

16     candidly, and I don't know what the objection is.  If he wants to --

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think once it has been simplified further by

18     Mr. Haynes, the witness can now answer it.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:

20        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, answer the question.

21        A.   I'm not sure whether you interpreted Mr. Obrenovic's statement in

22     the proper way, whether interpreted his acknowledgment of guilt in a

23     proper way.

24             I saw his statement in which he says that no single unit, no

25     single platoon as a whole or anybody else from the Zvornik Brigade took

Page 31957

 1     part in the executions.  He said that he gave five policemen and

 2     Jasikovac to Drago Nikolic, and that's all he said.  That's the long and

 3     the short of it.  I never saw anywhere his order that he -- that

 4     executions could be carried out.  And you know who was in charge of the

 5     executions; this has been repeated over and over again.  Let me not go

 6     over the same ground again.

 7             I don't know how Mr. Obrenovic could understand that Mr. Beara

 8     was his subordinate at the time.  If Lazar Ristic was, Beara I'm sure

 9     wasn't.

10        Q.   The Court wanted you to answer Mr. Haynes's question --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  But we're also noticing that in your

12     question you put to the witness that Obrenovic did order the killings and

13     that has never been -- I don't think it's --

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think if we look at his plea agreement --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  A correct representation of the facts.  He has

16     answered the question.  Let's move to your next ...

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

18        Q.   Sir, let me go back and ask you this:  Do you think he's guilty?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, that --

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought the Court said that was the question you

21     wanted.  Fair enough, Mr. President, I will move on.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I said the way he has simplified the question, Mr.

23     Haynes, it is obvious to the witness that he should just look at us and

24     say:  This is not my business.  I am not a Judge.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.  I will, thank you.  I'll move on.

Page 31958

 1        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, to go back to this, I don't know if you want to

 2     call it rationale or reason that you give for opening the column and

 3     corridor for the Bosnian Muslims on the 16th and 17th, if you look at

 4     what Lazar Ristic says, if you look at what Colonel Sladojevic says, if

 5     you look at what Mr. Muminovic says, and then you compare it to your

 6     16th July 1995 interim combat report where you, sir, in essence describe

 7     almost the similar situation as they have, yet you told us under oath

 8     that the 16th of July interim combat report was just a fabrication or

 9     just a creation that had no basis in fact?  Isn't it really true that the

10     16th of July, 1995, interim combat report was accurate?

11        A.   Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Sladojevic could not give you a different story

12     from the one that I told him and that was identical to the interim combat

13     report of the 16th.  Mr. Lazar Ristic, as far as I can remember, never

14     said that his battalion's front-line had been broken through.  The only

15     thing that remains is for Semso and I not to agree on certain things.  I

16     would kindly ask you to quote and interpret the testimonies in a proper

17     way.  Don't mislead us, don't misguide us like you did before when you

18     were talking about the acknowledgment of guilt by Dragan Obrenovic.

19        Q.   Sir, I'm sorry if you think I'm misleading you and I think the

20     Prosecution -- and we can look at his plea agreement to see, specifically

21     with Pilica, what his admissions were on that, but I won't debate it with

22     you in the interests of time.

23             I want to stay with the purpose for which you claim under oath

24     being humanitarian that you opened this corridor.  Given Sladojevic's

25     testimony that he felt that you would have lost enemy -- your own

Page 31959

 1     soldiers would have lost lives, the enemy would have probably perished in

 2     some battle, given what Lazar Ristic says with the weapons that the enemy

 3     says and the size, given what Mr. Muminovic says, given your July 16th,

 4     1995, interim combat report, and also given what you said today on

 5     page 12, lines 11 through 13, that you wanted to protect the lives of

 6     both my soldiers, meaning the Zvornik Brigade soldiers, and the enemy's

 7     soldiers, that your reason, under oath, that you claim that you were

 8     negotiating a cease-fire to open a corridor is simply not true.

 9        A.   Well, this is identical to your previous question.  You remember

10     that I started negotiating with Semso after the information that I had

11     received from Dragan Obrenovic, and after his conversation with the

12     Muslim officer who had surrendered and who had told him about the

13     situation in the column of the 28th Division.

14             You saw during the examination-in-chief that testimony of one of

15     the survivors was quoted as saying that the 28th Division column was

16     powerless to do anything.  You've also seen the notes from the log-book

17     and you saw that Premijer was reporting on the 28th Division, saying, A

18     few from the front-line cannot do anything, we here can't do anything.

19     So this is the complete situation.

20             And when I tell you that my reasons were humanitarian, it was

21     equally humanitarian for me to save the life of my soldiers as it was to

22     save the lives of the Muslim soldiers.

23        Q.   Let's turn to another topic, sir, that I disagree with you and

24     that's your attempt to try and create this issue called absence of

25     commander and senior officer.  You gave initially when you testified

Page 31960

 1     under oath some scenarios when there would be an absence of a commander

 2     and we talked about a joint tactical operation, but help me understand

 3     this:  Given that testimony, was there ever a time from July 10th through

 4     July 15th, 1995, that the Zvornik Brigade ever had a situation where

 5     their commander was absent, whether it be you or Dragan Obrenovic?

 6        A.   Between 10 and 15 July 1995, I was absent and Dragan Obrenovic

 7     was there and he was acting as commander during that period.

 8        Q.   I understand that.  So all this business and all these questions

 9     that you were asked about absence of commander, am I correct that at no

10     time during July 10th through the 15th of 1995, was there ever a

11     situation where a commander, meaning specifically Dragan Obrenovic was

12     absent?

13        A.   According to my information, he was not absent; he was in the

14     brigade all that time.

15        Q.   And he was in the brigade at all time and he was conducting the

16     function as a commander not only from the 10th through the 15th but for

17     any period in July when you were absent; wouldn't that be correct, sir?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now let's talk about senior officer.  I want to follow your logic

20     when a battalion soldier gets an order purportedly from a senior officer

21     and he has to comply with it.  Are you telling this Court seriously, sir,

22     under oath that if someone from the corps, like the Sarajevo Romanija

23     Corps, would come in with the rank of a colonel, and let's not even talk

24     about a general like General Krstic who was in the Drina Corps, but

25     someone from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, he can come into your brigade,

Page 31961

 1     he can go to your battalion platoon, unit, and he can pluck out a soldier

 2     and move him or direct him as to how he should engage into some

 3     activities.  Is that what you're telling us?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's a fine question.  Could I ask Mr. Ostojic

 6     to lower his tone a little bit.  It's been a long time and it's hard to

 7     listen to that volume.  That's all.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, could you please --

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll try, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  I just don't want him to -- never mind.

12        Q.   Can he do that, do you think, Mr. Pandurevic?

13        A.   You have proposed an example which differs from the reality of

14     the time.  Soldiers from the Zvornik Brigade or any other brigade for

15     that matter would act upon an order of a higher or senior officer from

16     the superior command if they know who that person was and if it is in the

17     presence of some officer from the Zvornik Brigade.  We have already heard

18     that that was the case in Orahovac, Rocevic and Pilica as well.

19        Q.   So tell me this, can someone from the corps, a colonel or a

20     general from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps come into the Zvornik Brigade

21     and move a battalion, a platoon, a unit or even a soldier and say, Well,

22     come out of the Zvornik Brigade and come and do this for me, like, help

23     me on the front-line where I'm fighting near Sarajevo.  Do you think

24     that's prescribed by the rules anywhere, sir?

25        A.   It is prescribed but let's not go all the way to Sarajevo, there

Page 31962

 1     are events that took place closer.  If that was needed by the Sarajevo

 2     Romanija Corps, he would have asked for that from the Main Staff and then

 3     the order would arrive at the Drina Corps and then at the brigade.  We

 4     had a very specific situation in which people came from the corps and the

 5     Main Staff with an order, probably issued by the commander of the

 6     Main Staff, and they got in touch by the functional line of work with the

 7     people from the Zvornik Brigade.  And that functional relationship became

 8     the relationship that binding on both parties upon the request of the

 9     people from the corps and the Main Staff.

10             Let me interpret that for you.  Drago Nikolic was duty-bound to

11     act upon Popovic -- Popovic's and Beara's orders, and they were not from

12     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and they did not ask for any men to be taken

13     from somewhere.  They just asked for assistance to carry out the job that

14     was given to them, the job that they were given to do.

15        Q.   And we'll get into specifically Mr. Beara because you seem to be

16     very anxious to discuss him, sir, but do you know that -- in fact what

17     would that do?  You described earlier this unity of command, and if you

18     would have come in over the telephone on the 15th of July, 1995, when you

19     and Krstic were together, and you had this discussion where you saw these

20     three either reports or telegrams about the situation in Zvornik, the

21     question was asked to you:  Well, did you instruct anyone or give any

22     orders to anyone?  And you said, Gosh, no, that would go against the

23     unity of command, there would be chaos.  Do you remember that?

24        A.   I remember --

25        Q.   Not only would it be chaos, it would be confusion and it would be

Page 31963

 1     a total collapse of this unity of command, wouldn't it?

 2        A.   Well, such things happen in practice.  It's a kind of dynamic

 3     that aberrates from the rules.  And if people came to the command of the

 4     Zvornik Brigade and they didn't ask for the commander, either me or

 5     somebody standing in for me, and they did not ask assistance from him in

 6     manpower and everything else, this means that they had come to do

 7     something that the commander at the time was not supposed to know

 8     anything about.  And I mentioned the 15 July intercept in which Mr. Beara

 9     asked from Krstic to provide him with some assistance.

10        Q.   You were there on the 15th, though.  All the crimes that

11     Obrenovic admitted to with your troops on the 13th and 14th of Orahovac,

12     Petkovci and Pilici were over, weren't they?  According to you, anyway?

13     Right?

14        A.   On the 15th, I was travelling from the area of Zepa to Zvornik

15     and this is when your client asked for assistance from Krstic.

16        Q.   And I dispute that, sir, and thankfully we'll get into it.  Did

17     you read in preparation of your case Milos Tomovic's interview with the

18     Prosecution on the 17th of October, 2005?

19        A.   I listened to that interview that was provided to the OTP, as

20     well as the statement that you took from him later in order to iron out

21     the previous statement that he provided to the OTP.  At least that's how

22     I saw the things.

23        Q.   You know who Milos Tomovic is; right?

24        A.   No, I never saw him.  I only understood from the documents that

25     he was Mr. Beara's driver.

Page 31964

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You must have read in that interview that before the

 2     Defence even got an opportunity to talk to Milos Tomovic, the

 3     Prosecution, specifically Julian Nicholls and Bruce Bursik, conducted an

 4     interview with him on the 17th of October, 2005?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Well, you said you reviewed it --

 7        A.   I don't remember.

 8        Q.   Let's look at that and that's 2D639, please.

 9        A.   I did listen to that interview but I don't remember when it took

10     place or who the interviewers were.

11        Q.   Well, we'll show you right now.  I think I mispronounced

12     Mr. Bursik's name.  So for the record it's B-u-r-s-i-k.  Thank you.

13             Here it says right on the first page who was there and you see on

14     the fifth line down, Bruce Bursik, and Julian Nicholls also introduces

15     himself, among others, the translator as well as the driver Milos

16     Tomovic, with the interview being conducted in Sarajevo.  Is that the

17     interview you looked at?

18        A.   I listened to the audio version of this interview, I did not see

19     the transcript thereof.

20        Q.   Thank you.  If we could turn to page 16 of this interview.  It

21     would be towards the bottom, lines 23 through 32.  Here is a driver of

22     Ljubisa Beara who is being interviewed by the Prosecution before ever

23     meeting with Mr. Beara's Defence attorneys and the Prosecution asks him:

24             "I just want to run through a few places or locations with you

25     and I want you to comment on whether you ever visited these places with

Page 31965

 1     Colonel Beara."

 2             Milos Tomovic answer:  "No problem."

 3             BB, who is the investigator Bruce Bursik, says:  "And I'm

 4     referring specifically to July 1995.  The first place, Orahovac."

 5             "A.  No."

 6             Next place, although he mispronounced it we believe that it

 7     relates to Grbavica.  He says:  "Grbavski school," et cetera.

 8             "A.  No."

 9             "The school in Petkovci."  Again, the question is whether he

10     visited these places with Colonel Beara.

11             The answer is:  "I don't know where that place is, I said."

12             Next, on the next page 17, lines 1 through 17, we'll be focussing

13     on.

14             The investigator from the OTP continues to ask him:

15             "Did you visit any school in July 1995 with Colonel Beara?

16             "A.  No.

17             "Q.  Kozluk?

18             "A.  I passed through Kozluk but I didn't visit it."

19             OTP investigator:  "Okay.  And did you stop at Rocevic?"

20             "A.  No, we only went through Rocevic on the way to Bijeljina and

21     Banja Luka.

22             "Q.  And Pilica?

23             "A.  No, we passed through Pilica too, but that's also the way to

24     Bijeljina.  Pilica, Rocevici and Bijeljina.

25             "Q.  Farm, military farm in Branjevo?

Page 31966

 1             "A.  I don't know where that is.

 2             "Q.  It's just a little bit west of Pilica.

 3             "A.  No, I wasn't there.  I just went through that road to

 4     Bijeljina.

 5             "Finally, Kula.  The little village of Kula just west of Pilica?

 6             "A.  No."

 7             Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Now do you also -- while you were reading or listening to the

10     audio of this tape, do you remember that the Prosecutor actually knew

11     that at that time that Ljubisa Beara in July of 1995 was in Belgrade?

12     You are aware of that, aren't you?

13        A.   No, I wasn't aware at the time.  When I was listening to the

14     tape, I didn't think or reflected on what the OTP knew and what you claim

15     to be the truth.  What I can conclude from the transcript is that this

16     gentleman was not at the places that are referred to herein.  Whether

17     there was some other driver who may have taken Mr. Beara to these places,

18     I don't know.  I don't even know that.

19        Q.   And I know you don't because you are speculating and there was no

20     other driver that was driving Mr. Beara.  But in any event, let's go to

21     see what the Prosecutor knew in 2005.  Sometimes we can learn it from the

22     very questions they ask, so why don't we go to page 20 of 25 of this

23     interview.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  If that's the purpose of his

25     questions, it's inappropriate and it's impossible to tell anyway.

Page 31967

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 2             MR. HAYNES:  I agree.  I mean if this -- if the purpose of this

 3     is simply to establish an alibi through a witness who has no reason to

 4     know the truth of the questions or the answers in relation to a driver

 5     who they, for reasons of their own, they chose not to call as a witness

 6     who was interviewed in 2005, it's a completely improper line of

 7     cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  There's two things here.  I take exception with

10     them speculating or concluding whether we chose not to call this driver.

11     We have put him on our list and I think, as you recall, we've asked him

12     to come.  He has refused.  He's now given a statement approximately 10 or

13     12 days ago that we've given to the Prosecution and to Mr. Pandurevic's

14     lawyer and to him.  He's willing under certain circumstances that I would

15     like to address probably in private session to testify.

16             I think it's important -- if Mr. Pandurevic is going to continue

17     to claim his position or shift of responsibility to the security that

18     it's important to know some truth here and the position of the

19     Prosecution when they knew in October of 2005 that, in fact, Mr. Beara

20     was in Belgrade or was in Yugoslavia in July of 1995.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  How on earth can you convince us that this is okay

22     to be done through this witness?

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  He's read it.  So I'd like to know -- he's read it,

24     he's prepared for it.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  So what?  He's already told you.

Page 31968

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  Let me finish.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  He can't say anything.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  I want this witness not only to say that Obrenovic,

 4     Muminovic, Ristic and all the other witnesses are lying but him, I want

 5     to see if he's going to add this witness to his list of people who are

 6     liars.  So all the other people that he's referenced I want to see if he

 7     has any --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move to your next question, Mr. Ostojic.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think it's important to put it on the screen,

10     Mr. President, it will take less than a minute.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no, we are not allowing the question.  We are

12     not allowing the question with this witness.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:

14        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, are you aware that Mr. Beara had only one driver

15     in July of 1995?

16        A.   Mr. Ostojic, before that, I have to say this:  I didn't say that

17     Mr. Lazar Ristic lied about anything relating to me, either

18     Mr. Sladojevic or him.  You stick to your logic and try to misinterpret

19     things.  I don't know how many drivers he said.  If he wanted to get

20     involved in something like that, then it would have made sense for him to

21     take another driver, not the regular one.

22        Q.   The driver says he was with him during the 15th and that period,

23     sir, but in any event --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in the realm of speculation.  Perhaps here,

25     perhaps there.  Imagination as well, so let's move to the --

Page 31969

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.

 2        Q.   Let's look at your interview that you gave to the Prosecution on

 3     the 2nd of October, 2001, which is 7D1154, you remember that.  That was a

 4     time when you came with Mr. Zivanovic to meet with Eileen Gilleece;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember.

 7        Q.   And in that interview, I know your counsel went through several

 8     paragraphs but what I'd like us to focus on is page 5 of 6 of that

 9     interview and the notes that Ms. Gilleece took.  And we've kind of now

10     captured your testimony to know that you had this meeting on the 15th at

11     the command post, then you had these meetings on the 15th at the IKM,

12     although it's not mentioned in this report, and then you told us about

13     these meetings on the 17th and 18th of July, 1995.  You consider those

14     meetings to be important, do you not?  Those with Obrenovic and the

15     conversations that you share with us, Jokic, Milosevic, et cetera?

16        A.   Well, sir, during a trial, anything might turn out to be

17     important.  At the time when I spoke about this, I didn't dwell too much

18     on every detail and didn't go through each and every meeting.  I wanted

19     to portray a general picture for you.

20        Q.   Well, you portrayed an alibi -- or you portrayed your Defence of

21     shifting the responsibility to the security organs.  Looking on page 5

22     of 6, when you went through the chronology of the events, do you see

23     anywhere there mentioned that you had a conversation with any of the

24     individuals you now claim you've had on either the 16th, 17th or 18th of

25     July, 1995?  And if not, why not?

Page 31970

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 2             MR. HAYNES:  The B/C/S and English pages do not correspond.  If

 3     Mr. Ostojic is referring to page 5 of the English, that will not be the

 4     same information that is in front of the witness.  Can he point the

 5     witness to the paragraphs and the page he wants to ask him questions

 6     about rather than throwing out a page and saying, Read that, when it's

 7     not going to be the same information Mr. Ostojic is referring to.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Haynes.  Yes, Mr --

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  We'll try to accommodate him.

10        Q.   If you look at the interview that you gave on page 5 which

11     starts, "On the 17th of July, Pandurevic, there was a report from

12     General Mladic ..."  Then you take that next paragraph, again it mentions

13     the 17th.  Then you talk about Mr. Muminovic.  Then you talk about the

14     brigade, how many soldiers it had lost, the casualties in your brigade.

15     Then the last paragraph I'd like you to look at -- then you jump quickly

16     to the 22nd of July, 1995.

17             Do you see that basically?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   In that period of time talking to an investigator, after meeting

20     with all these individuals, knowing Obrenovic was just indicted and

21     arrested and transferred, having the Krstic trial judgement there, having

22     Zivanovic schedule a meeting with the Prosecution, wanting to kind of

23     tell them what you claim to be is the truth, why didn't you tell them

24     about the conversations that you purportedly had with Obrenovic and

25     others on the 16th, 17th and 18th of July, 1995?

Page 31971

 1        A.   Mr. Ostojic, I would never have gone to this meeting had it not

 2     been initiated by Mr. Zivanovic.  My intention was not to present to

 3     anyone what I did in July 1995.  However, since the meeting was convened,

 4     I thought that it would be a good idea, relating to my activities in

 5     1992, to tell them.

 6             I told them a lot but a lot has not been recorded or was

 7     erroneously recorded.  You can see the mention here of various meetings

 8     and contacts on the 16th and the 17th.  The fact that not everything is

 9     mentioned here, I explained in my examination-in-chief how these

10     conversations took place and how the minutes were taken.

11        Q.   Well, it's not only mentioned here, it's not even mentioned in

12     your 65 ter summary with respect to purported conversations you had on

13     the 16th of July?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Isn't that correct?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

17             MR. HAYNES:  It's the previous question.  Where is the

18     information that they had the Krstic trial judgement there?  I just want

19     to know where that assertion comes from since it's been placed into the

20     transcript by Mr. Ostojic?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm not sure -- I didn't follow his question.  Is

23     he saying that the Krstic trial judgement came after October 2001?

24             MR. HAYNES:  No.  The assertion appears in the question that they

25     had with them at the meeting the Krstic trial judgement.  That's how it

Page 31972

 1     reads.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think it may have been a misstatement if I said

 3     it that way.  Knowing about the Krstic trial judgement, I think is how

 4     the initial questions last week were and certainly I don't think we have

 5     established that he had the trial judgement of Krstic with him, but it

 6     might be a good question to ask so I'll just ask it to put it away.

 7        Q.   Did you have the Krstic trial judgement during your meeting with

 8     Ms. Gilleece and the OTP?

 9        A.   I already said that I read the Krstic trial judgement here in

10     The Hague.  I had never seen it before.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We had it just a little different.

12             Now let me go back to this meeting on the 15th at the command of

13     the Zvornik Brigade that you had with Obrenovic, Vasic, Stupar and

14     others.  At that time, this was your first trip back from the Srebrenica

15     area.  Did you guys ever, as military men, and people who are from that

16     local in Zvornik, did you discuss the victory that you had just attained

17     in Srebrenica?

18        A.   I'm kindly asking you to try and understand the situation as it

19     was in the context of that time.  I didn't return from Zepa to celebrate

20     with someone the victory of Srebrenica.  I had my specific tasks and I

21     needed to receive information and details regarding my going out into the

22     field as soon as possible.

23        Q.   So the answer is no, no one discussed that at all?

24        A.   Of course we didn't discuss that.

25        Q.   Did anyone congratulate you at all, sir, and the Zvornik Brigade

Page 31973

 1     tactical group that went on that mission a couple days earlier, or was

 2     there no mention of that either?

 3        A.   No, nobody congratulated me.  If you look at the list of the

 4     commended officers and soldiers of the Drina Corps in the aftermath of

 5     Krivaja 95, there are only five names from the Zvornik Brigade whereas

 6     the other -- the majority is not from my brigade and of course I was not

 7     among them.

 8        Q.   I'm not talking about that.  I'm talking about these people who

 9     are from the Zvornik area, knowing that you commanded the tactical group

10     and went to Srebrenica, they must have heard the news that Srebrenica was

11     liberated by the Serbs and the VRS.  No one congratulated you at all,

12     that's your testimony; correct?

13        A.   No, nobody did.

14        Q.   Now, you talk about in your meeting with Eileen Gilleece certain

15     rumours that you heard on certain dates, and I know your counsel went

16     over that to correct some of those errors that she had made.  Did you

17     ever hear the rumour about the killings at Kravica?

18        A.   Not at that time.

19        Q.   So at that meeting at the command on the 15th of July, no one

20     discussed or mentioned Kravica; correct?

21        A.   No.  While I was there, Kravica was not mentioned once in my

22     presence.

23        Q.   When did you first hear about Kravica and the Kravica warehouse

24     killings?

25        A.   I'm not quite sure when I received this information.  It could

Page 31974

 1     have been in late July or even later than that.

 2        Q.   Who did you hear it from?

 3        A.   I'm not quite sure whether that was mentioned in the conversation

 4     with Krstic on the 27th of July when I met him or if I heard it later,

 5     like many others.

 6        Q.   And tell us what you heard when you were with Krstic or -- to the

 7     best of your recollection, about the Kravica killings.  Or if you can't

 8     remember, that's fine, we can move on to the next topic.

 9        A.   I'm telling you, I cannot provide you with any details because I

10     heard the details relating to Kravica here in these proceedings.

11        Q.   Let's quickly take a look, sir, at Exhibit P77.

12             Sir, I'm going to direct your attention to the first full

13     paragraph but, really, initially just the first full sentence of that

14     paragraph.  Where it starts:

15             "During the night of 12-13 July 1995," do you see that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Just let me know when you've read that first sentence.

18             Were ambushes set up in the general Konjevic Polje area by any

19     members of the Zvornik Brigade?

20        A.   As regards the activities of any forces in the area of Konjevic

21     Polje on the 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th in the morning, I knew nothing at

22     the time.  All I learned about that took place here in this trial.

23        Q.   Okay.  But do you know if any members, even though you weren't

24     there, did you come to learn that there were members of the Zvornik

25     Brigade who were involved in ambushes that were set up in the general

Page 31975

 1     Konjevic Polje area or do you think that they never were involved in it?

 2        A.   No, I don't think that anyone from the Zvornik Brigade took part

 3     in setting up ambushes.  I also read a report, I think it was dated the

 4     12th, which Obrenovic says that he had dispatched a police patrol in

 5     order to regulate traffic.

 6        Q.   So he was in charge of traffic.

 7             Let's look at P886 and as this comes up, sir, this is also from

 8     the 13th of July, 1995.  You've seen this document, I'm sure, here during

 9     the trial.  It's relatively short so you read it and then let me know

10     when you've had an opportunity to complete your review of the document.

11        A.   I've read it.

12        Q.   This is a document that seems to be authored by Dragomir Vasic.

13     He references a meeting with General Mladic in the morning which he says

14     "this morning" so I'm presuming it's the morning of the 13th of July,

15     1995.  Now, your morning -- your meeting with General Mladic and Krstic

16     happened, I think, and correct me if I am wrong, sir, happened on the

17     11th of July, 1995; correct?

18        A.   That was the meeting that took place on the evening of the 11th

19     at the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

20        Q.   At 2000 hours or so, as you say infamously, right?  I just wanted

21     to clarify that?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  You were not at this meeting that Vasic had on

24     the 13th of July with General Mladic in the morning; correct?

25        A.   No, I know nothing about this meeting.

Page 31976

 1        Q.   Well, are you aware of this order by General Mladic to

 2     Dragomir Vasic that they were leaving all work to the MUP and then he

 3     breaks out what that work is?  Are you aware of that?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   As you sit here, is there any reason that you can think of that

 6     Dragomir Vasic would lie about both the meeting with General Mladic and

 7     the tasks that he highlights General Mladic gave the MUP in July 13th,

 8     1995?

 9        A.   I cannot fathom as to what was driving Vasic when he was

10     compiling this report and whether he faithfully conveyed the orders given

11     by Mladic.  However, judging by how it looks, I very much doubt that this

12     could be Vasic's doing solely.

13        Q.   What, writing this short report or engaging in the tasks that

14     were assigned?

15        A.   To carry out the tasks mentioned in this report.

16        Q.   Now, if we look at P62, which is another document from Vasic,

17     dated the 13th of July, 1995.  In this report, in the second paragraph,

18     Vasic is basically complaining that he has no cooperation or assistance

19     from the VRS in sealing off and destroying a large of number of enemy

20     soldiers and that the MUP is working alone in the operation; do you see

21     that?

22        A.   Yes, I see apparently there was no coordination between the MUP

23     and the army, or this is how Vasic perceived it.  These are his words and

24     his observations.

25        Q.   You knew the man; you probably still know the man.  You wanted to

Page 31977

 1     appoint him the commander or assistant commander for morale, legal and

 2     religious services of the 6th Battalion.  Do you know of any reason why

 3     he would lie when he would make such a report like this, as you sit here?

 4        A.   I have no reason to think that he lied or any reason to believe

 5     that everything was 100 per cent accurate.  I wanted to appoint him to

 6     this position for morale and legal and religious matters because he had a

 7     university degree which was quite a rarity at the time.

 8        Q.   Let's look at P60 --

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, I thought we started a few minutes late so I

10     thought I would go a few minutes longer, but if the Court wishes.  It's

11     up to you.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  How much longer do you have?

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  Not much at all.  I think -- I'm going to consult

14     with Mr. Nikolic and Mr. Beara --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then let's have the break.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  Fair enough.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  25 minutes.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have no further

22     questions for Mr. Pandurevic.

23             Thank you, sir.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you so much, Mr. Ostojic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Ostojic.

Page 31978

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  So Mr. Zivanovic is ready, Mr. Ostojic is ready,

 2     Mr. Bourgon is ready, Ms. Fauveau -- there is nothing, no?  Okay.  So,

 3     Mr. Krgovic.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC:  We don't have questions, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  So you have your hour or so, Mr. Gosnell.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President, I hope it will be

 8     shorter.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Take your time.  And that is also an indication

10     that you will be starting your cross-examination today.  Thank you.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Before we

12     begin, I'd like to introduce a new member of our team who will be

13     assisting us, Mr. William Byrne, who is sitting in the front row next to

14     Ms. Tapuskovic.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

17        Q.   Good morning, General Pandurevic.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   General, you testified that you met Ljubomir Borovcanin for the

20     first time at around noon on 15 July 1995 at the Zvornik Brigade

21     barracks; is that right?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Gosnell, I don't know, if you prefer -- I don't

23     know, it may be a futile suggestion, but if you prefer to move to the

24     front so that you would be nearer the witness and have Mr. Byrne next to

25     you, it will only take a couple of minutes.

Page 31979

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I believe that Mr. Byrne and I are well

 2     coordinated but if it's more convenient for the Chamber to have a clearer

 3     sign -- line of sight to me, I'm happy to move up to the front.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  The reason is that there is already the problem of

 5     distance between defence counsel and the accused and having your new

 6     associate sitting at seven yards away from you may become a problem.  I

 7     don't know.  It's up to you.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, I think we're comfortable

 9     where we are --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Then let's proceed.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  -- provided that you're comfortable with where I

12     am.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  No, no, I am, of course, comfortable with

14     where you are.  I can see you at least.  If Mr. Byrne sits near you, I

15     won't be able to see him.  You are most welcome, Mr. Byrne.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

17        Q.   General Pandurevic, let me just repeat my question.  You

18     testified that you met Ljubomir Borovcanin for the first time at around

19     noon on 15 July at the Zvornik Brigade barracks; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you've testified that Mr. Borovcanin's units were deployed to

22     block the column of the 28th Division in the area of Baljkovica on

23     15 July and that they remained there, to the best of your recollection,

24     until the 18th of July.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  And for the record that's at T3 -- the transcript

Page 31980

 1     is 31158, lines 21 to 24, and 31814, lines 9 to 13.

 2        Q.   What I'd like to ask you is:  Do you remember seeing

 3     Mr. Borovcanin with his units in the Baljkovica area during those four

 4     days between 15 and 18 July?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And as far as you know, Mr. Borovcanin was occupied commanding

 7     his units in that area during those four days; isn't that right?

 8        A.   Yes, and he was subordinated to me and we maintained a

 9     communication.

10        Q.   And after the 18th of July, 1995, when did you next meet

11     Mr. Borovcanin?

12        A.   I'm not quite sure, but it was maybe a year after the war.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to come back briefly to the meeting at

14     the Zvornik barracks on the 15th of July.  You were asked a number of

15     questions about that meeting.  Was -- I'd like to ask you your

16     impressions of the meeting.  Was there a sense of urgency during that

17     meeting?

18        A.   Of course the meeting was set up and held for a very short period

19     of time, already was there the moment I arrived and I added to the

20     urgency of the meeting after the speech given by Dragan Obrenovic.  At

21     that point in time, I wasn't ready to go into a lengthy discussion about

22     the situation.  My wish was to go to the field as soon as possible.

23        Q.   And about how long did the meeting last after your arrival until

24     the time that you dispersed?

25        A.   I believe approximately 20 minutes, give or take one or two

Page 31981

 1     minutes.  I am not sure.

 2        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  You were asked some questions earlier

 3     today about your motivations for allowing the passage of the column.

 4     What I'd like to ask you is when the column was ultimately allowed to

 5     pass through the VRS lines, would I understand correctly that regardless

 6     of what your motivations may have been, there was no guarantee of safe

 7     passage of those men other than your promise to Semso Muminovic; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  Mr. Muminovic only had my word, nothing else.

10        Q.   You've also testified that sometime after the 18th of July,

11     PJP units from the Zvornik CJB under the command of Dragomir Vasic were

12     involved in searching the terrain.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have 4D652 on e-court.

14        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, I've noticed over the course of the last several

15     days that you like to have documents in hard copy so I've provided you

16     with a lovely purple binder which is on your desk which contains each of

17     these exhibits that I will be using today in B/C/S.  And so I hope that

18     the first document you have is 4D652.  This is an order from

19     Dragomir Vasic as the commander of the Zvornik CJB staff.  It's dated

20     19 July and it's addressed to various police stations, the Bratunac,

21     Milici, Vlasenica, and Sekovici SJBs, and several other police stations.

22             It reads:

23             "Based on the demonstrated need, the commander of the Zvornik

24     Public Security Centre Staff hereby orders:

25             "1.  That this centre's first PJP company assemble at the Zvornik

Page 31982

 1     CJB at 0730 hours on 20 July 1995."

 2             I believe we may need to go to page 2 of the B/C/S in order for

 3     the remainder of that to appear.

 4             Just to clarify the interpretation, the word in the document is

 5     "assemble" at point 1.

 6             Now, given the nature of the addressees, namely these various

 7     police stations from which the members of the first PJP company were

 8     drawn, and given the use of the word "assemble," would you agree with me

 9     that this order appears to be calling back members of the first PJP

10     company who have dispersed to their respective police stations?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, the first company of the PJP from the

12     CJB Zvornik was at the time subordinated to Mr. Borovcanin while they

13     were participating in combat in Baljkovica.  It arises from this document

14     that this company, after the 18th, was sent home and that Vasic ordered

15     its reassembly to be engaged in the scouring of the terrain.

16        Q.   And then at item 2, item 2 would seem to confirm what you just

17     answered; namely, the task of the unit will be to search the terrain in

18     the wider area of Crni Vrh, Snagovo, Zvornik.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And I take it you'd agree with me that that confirms your

21     testimony as to their task; isn't that right?

22        A.   Yes.  It says here scouring the terrain or search of the terrain.

23        Q.   Thank you, General.  Now I'd like to shift gears and return to

24     early July 1995 and ask you a series of questions about your knowledge of

25     Bosnian forces in the Srebrenica enclave.

Page 31983

 1             Now, you've testified that your axis of attack was along the

 2     southern approaches to Srebrenica town, but I'd like to start -- and

 3     we'll get to that, but I'd like to start by asking you some questions

 4     about what you know about Bosnian forces in the northern end of the

 5     enclave.

 6             I'd like to start by asking you about one aspect of your

 7     testimony where you said that you had participated in a commander's

 8     reconnaissance on the 1st of July and you made reference to having

 9     visited three working points.  I was wondering whether you can explain to

10     the Chamber what is a "working point" and how does that fit into a

11     commander's reconnaissance?

12        A.   A commander's reconnaissance is a manner to convey the

13     commander's order to the subordinated units in the field.  A commander's

14     reconnaissance usually happens before a decision by the commander is

15     taken or after a decision by the commander is taken.  If it's after, then

16     a commander's reconnaissance can serve to correct certain details.

17     Before embarking on reconnaissance, there has to be a plan of

18     reconnaissance and the points from which one could observe the positions

19     and the deployment of the enemy.

20             During such a reconnaissance, the organs of the command which are

21     engaged in combat have to be present as well as the commanders of the

22     subordinated units.

23             On the 1st of July, we carried out such a reconnaissance from two

24     working points, i.e., from three positions from which one could see the

25     southern approaches to the zone of Srebrenica, the eastern approaches and

Page 31984

 1     the western approaches to Srebrenica.  We did not carry out any

 2     reconnaissance from the northern approaches because the Bratunac Brigade

 3     was engaged on that axis and they were very familiar with the deployment

 4     of the enemy in that part of the field.

 5        Q.   And do I understand correctly that you were given information by

 6     elements of the Bratunac Brigade as to what those positions were?

 7        A.   In practical terms from the moment Srebrenica was proclaimed a

 8     protected area, the Army of Republika Srpska knew fully well the

 9     deployment of the 28th Division forces.  From the southern and western

10     approaches to the enclave, we received such information from the

11     Pribicevac tactical group and Colonel Vukota.  As for the western axis,

12     we received information from the Milici [Realtime transcript read in

13     error "military"] brigade; and as for the rest of the zone, the

14     information came from the Bratunac Brigade.

15        Q.   I think there might be a transcription error.  It reads at

16     page 44, line 7, "military brigade."  I believe I heard "Milici brigade."

17        A.   Yes, Milici.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. GOSNELL:

20        Q.   Did you learn whether there were any fortified positions in the

21     Srebrenica enclave?

22        A.   There were fortified shelters for artillery in the front-line of

23     defence and there are also trenches in certain houses, some of which were

24     complete and some of which were partly destroyed, housed the elements of

25     the commands of certain brigades of the 28th Division.

Page 31985

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 4D210 on e-court, please.

 2        Q.   Now, you've just mentioned that there were commands of certain

 3     brigades.  Do I understand you correctly to say that these commands were

 4     located in residential houses?

 5        A.   Yes, in different types of facilities, residential houses,

 6     industrial facilities, it all depended on the deployment of the various

 7     brigades.

 8        Q.   I'd like to focus, if we can, on item B on the first page in

 9     English and in B/C/S, I believe, where it reads:

10             "Set up the 280th" --

11             Well, allow me to go back and introduce what this document is.

12     This is the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Armed Forces Supreme Command

13     Staff Sarajevo, and this document is signed by Brigadier General Stjepan

14     Siber, who is said to be standing in for the commander.  The subject line

15     of the document is:  "Order on organisational changes - forming war units

16     in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps."

17             Focussing on the paragraph beginning with B, it says:

18             "Set up the 280th Light Eastern Bosnia Brigade with headquarters

19     in Potocari as per provisional light brigade establishment T-412.240."

20             I'd first of all just like to ask you, did you hear the

21     designation 280th Brigade during your reconnaissance, did you hear of

22     this unit?

23        A.   Yes, we were shown the exact deployment positions of each brigade

24     and this included the 280th.

25        Q.   So did you know or learn that the headquarters of the

Page 31986

 1     280th Brigade was in fact in Potocari?

 2        A.   Yes, as far as I can remember, Colonel Blagojevic pointed to the

 3     deployment of the forces on the map and those forces came from the north,

 4     from the direction of Bratunac.  The command of that brigade was indeed

 5     in Potocari but I can't remember the exact location.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  With the Chamber's permission, I would like now to

 7     play an excerpt of a video and this video is a -- in effect it's a video

 8     of a series of Google Earth images, and the purpose of this is to assist

 9     the witness in potentially identifying some of these locations.  So if we

10     can I would like to play the video up to 56 seconds, please.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. GOSNELL:  All right.  Let's stop it there, please.

13             Now, just to explain, this is Google Earth imagery with a map

14     over land on to the imagery so what are you seeing in effect is the map

15     with the topographical lines graphically displayed.

16        Q.   General --

17             MR. GOSNELL:  And I should tell the Chamber that this is 4D682

18     and it has been disclosed, I believe, to all parties.

19        Q.   General, first of all, does that video, at least what you've seen

20     so far, accurately reflect the terrain as you saw it back in July 1995?

21        A.   Well, during my education, when I had military topography as a

22     subject, some of my education concerned aerial photography.  I was not an

23     expert and this is obviously the state-of-the-art technology, much

24     different from the one that we had at the time, but I would say that this

25     clearly depicts the area of Potocari and the topographical elevations

Page 31987

 1     across which the 280th Brigade was deployed.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we have the image back up on the screen as its

 3     frozen.

 4        Q.   I don't think there will be any disagreement about this amongst

 5     the parties but is that sprawling factory complex the DutchBat compound

 6     in Potocari, at least the rust-coloured building to the north?

 7        A.   I believe that these are the factories in Potocari which housed

 8     the base of the Dutch Battalion.

 9        Q.   And do you see the name Budak written there on the screen?

10        A.   Yes, I see that.

11        Q.   And does that correspond to where you understood the village of

12     Budak to have been in 1995, in July?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And would you agree with me that, although unfortunately the ICTY

15     logo is blocking out the compass direction, at least on my screen, that

16     in fact this image is pointing directly north.  Would you agree with me

17     that Budak is north-west of the DutchBat base in Potocari?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we continue with the video through 1 minute

20     25 seconds, please.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             We can stop it there, please.

23             Could we now have 4D135.  Just for the record, the video is still

24     is based on Google Earth imagery and the map overlay has been faded out.

25             Can we now have 4D135, please.

Page 31988

 1        Q.   Now this is a Bosnia Ministry of Defence document, in particular

 2     issued by the Department of Defence office in Srebrenica, dated

 3     22 February 1995.  It's signed by a certain Professor Suljo Hasanovic who

 4     is said to be the chief of the Defence Department in Srebrenica.

 5             I'd just like you to focus on section 2, item 1, which is on

 6     page 1 of both the English and the B/C/S, where it says:

 7             "Family house owned by Meho Hrvacic in Potocari, 10 by 8 metres

 8     in size, where the entire ground floor houses the command."

 9        A.   I can see that, yes.

10        Q.   Do you remember specifically whether you were ever told or

11     learned precisely where the command of the 280th Brigade was located?

12        A.   I can't remember exactly which house was shown to me at the time,

13     but it was a residential house there.  I was not familiar with any of the

14     villagers, I wasn't familiar with the family names of the people in that

15     area.  It says here that the house belonged to Meho Hrvacic.

16        Q.   Do you recall if you were ever told how far this location may

17     have been from the DutchBat compound in general terms?

18        A.   In general terms, I know that the forces of the 280th Brigade

19     were deployed like elsewhere, very close to the base in the surrounding

20     facilities, but as I sit here today, I can't remember where this

21     particular house was exactly.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  May we have 4D635 [sic] on e-court, please.

23        Q.   General, I also believe you have this in your binder.  We only

24     have this document in B/C/S.  We recently obtained this document.  It's a

25     land registry record of various properties in Srebrenica and Potocari.

Page 31989

 1             Sir, if you could turn to page 7 --

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry.  Could counsel confirm the exhibit number,

 3     please.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  I hope that it's 4D653.  We're looking at page 7.

 5        Q.   Sir, do you see the name Meho Hrvacic anywhere on that page?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.  It says the property deed excerpt and it's -- it

 7     shows a date of the -- of the owner of the plot and it says here,

 8     Meho Hrvacic, son of Abdulah, owner.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's just turn the page or go to the next page

10     and this is a sketch which shows the location of the Hrvacic house and

11     there are grid coordinates on this sketch.  You don't by any chance

12     recognise or this sketch doesn't by any chance assist you in knowing

13     where that house might have been, does it?

14        A.   I'm afraid my memory is not jogged in any way by this sketch; I

15     can't tell you where the house was.

16        Q.   I'd now like to show you another video and this video shows the

17     location of the Hrvacic house based upon the grid coordinates provided in

18     the land registry.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  If we can play it to 15 seconds, please.  For the

20     record, that video is 4D683.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. GOSNELL:

23        Q.   Now, General, having seen that image zooming in and relative to

24     the DutchBat base, I wonder whether that location is consistent with what

25     you may have learned about the location of the 280th Brigade

Page 31990

 1     headquarters?

 2        A.   This is a rather dark image so that all the houses resemble each

 3     other in a way.  And I wouldn't dare attempt to say which house belonged

 4     to the gentleman in question.  However, according to this image, and to

 5     the excerpt from the land books, it is close to the base.

 6        Q.   Well, fair enough, General.  But does the general location, in a

 7     northerly direction from the DutchBat base, approximately two fields to

 8     the north, would that correspond generally with what you learned of the

 9     location of the headquarters?

10        A.   I remember that that command was relatively close to the

11     separation line, maybe midway between the UNPROFOR base and the

12     front-line itself.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, General.

14             Can we now have P107, please.

15        Q.   This is also in your binder, General, and this is --

16        A.   I found it, yes.

17        Q.   This is the Drina Corps order for combat, active combat

18     operations dated 2 July 1995.  At the bottom of page 1 in English, and

19     next to the first dash in B/C/S, as I understand it, it says, in

20     describing the 280th Brigade which is blocking the Potocari-Srebrenica

21     axis, and is in readiness for active operations against Bratunac and the

22     cutting of the Bratunac-Glogova-Konjevic Polje road.  And then it says:

23     "Its command post is in the village of Budak."

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did you learn whether there was a command post distinct from the

Page 31991

 1     headquarters that was in the village of Budak?

 2        A.   I believe that that house housed the command and it was the place

 3     that housed the command.  However, the activities involved in command

 4     took place in this facility in Budak.

 5        Q.   All right.  And this is the same Budak that we were looking at on

 6     the image as we were scrolling through the video; isn't that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you some questions

 9     about the positions of the 28th Division in Srebrenica town itself.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  And if we can continue with the first video from

11     where we left off and we're going to play until 2 minutes and 43 seconds.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Let's stop it there, please.

14        Q.   Now, General, you've described in your testimony in some detail

15     about the combat that occurred between the 6th and the 10th of July, the

16     Zivkovo Brdo, other locations.  I don't wish to go over all of that again

17     but let me first ask you does that video fairly and accurately reflect

18     the terrain as you knew it in the southern end of Srebrenica in

19     July 1995?

20        A.   Yes, although it seems that the sky was overcast when the picture

21     was taken, we can see the factory in Zeleni Jadar, we can see the Zeleni

22     Jadar-Srebrenica road and the facilities of Rajine.

23        Q.   And can I focus your attention on the screen at the hair-pin

24     turn, you see there a road that winds down to the valley floor in a

25     series of curves.  And then the last turn is a 180-degree turn into the

Page 31992

 1     valley.

 2             Can you confirm that this -- and I can tell you that north is as

 3     marked on the video so you can see the north-south axis there.  Can you

 4     confirm that that last curve is the southern limit of the urban area of

 5     Srebrenica?

 6        A.   Yes.  That was the first and the last time that I entered

 7     Srebrenica from that direction.  I was surprised to see how steep the

 8     approaches are, how curvy the road is, and this specific curve which is

 9     almost 360 degrees marks the age of the urban and developed part of the

10     town.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Let's continue now rolling the tape through 4

12     minutes and 5 seconds.  And just for the record, again, this is 4D682.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Actually let's just stop it here for one moment,

15     please.

16        Q.   Now, I realise that you only spent a very short time in

17     Srebrenica town, but does the layout of the town, the road layout

18     correspond to your recollection of what that was like in July 1995?

19        A.   I remember clearly the main street, the department store, and the

20     Hotel Domavija.  I have seen those buildings, I passed by them, I also

21     know where the police station is because I spent a night there.  I wasn't

22     very much impressed by the rest of the buildings and therefore I cannot

23     remember them.  And I also remember the post office, I'm sorry.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  All right.  Let's continue rolling the video,

25     please.

Page 31993

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now, first of all, General, I'd just like to go back to the

 4     commander's reconnaissance and you've told us a little bit about the

 5     commander's reconnaissance and your observations and your ability to

 6     observe.  And what I'd like to know is whether you learned that there

 7     were Bosnian army positions in Srebrenica town during the commander's

 8     reconnaissance?

 9        A.   We knew that the command of the 28th Division was in Srebrenica.

10     We had information that they were using the post office as their

11     communications centre and that they were also using the Domavija Hotel.

12     Also a hunter's lodge was being mentioned, but I don't know exactly where

13     that building is.

14        Q.   All right.  And did you learn more as your forces approached

15     Srebrenica town?  And we've now seen from the video, graphically, how

16     that would have looked and the extent to which those forces would have

17     had a view on the town and vice versa.  Did you come to learn from

18     reports or based on your personal observations about whether there were

19     any facilities being used for military purposes in the town?

20        A.   We knew that the Hotel Domavija, the post office and the hunter's

21     lodge were used for military purposes.  Whether there were any other

22     facilities used for these same purposes, I didn't know at that time.

23        Q.   Did you receive any reports of firing emanating from anywhere in

24     Srebrenica town?

25        A.   Yes, we were exposed to mortar fire directly from the town;

Page 31994

 1     however, at the time I didn't know their exact positions because it was

 2     impossible to spot them from the posts or the positions where I was.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 4D210, please, again.

 4        Q.   This one is still in your binder, General.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  This should be page 2 of both the English and the

 6     B/C/S version, and we're looking for items D, E, and F.

 7        Q.   What I'd like to know is did you hear that the commands of the

 8     282nd, 283rd, and 284th Brigades were located in Srebrenica town?

 9        A.   This document that we are talking about now relates to

10     mobilisation and reorganisation of the 28th Division; and here, elements

11     of the 282 and 283 brigades are mentioned and they have their bases in

12     Srebrenica.  In other words, that means that elements of these brigades

13     were deployed in the town itself, probably at command posts or the

14     logistic units and communications centre whereas the battalions and

15     companies were deployed close to the UNPROFOR checkpoints on the

16     Zeleni-Jadar-Srebrenica axis.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 4D135 again, please.  This is page 1

18     of both the English and the B/C/S.  And I'd like to focus on section 1,

19     item 1.  It states that:

20             "The command of the 8th Operations Group Srebrenica" -- well, let

21     me back up and explain what this document is again.  This is again the

22     defence ministry document, and the subject line is:  "List of office

23     space used by the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

24             Item 1, 1, refers to the command of the 8th Operations Group

25     Srebrenica located at a place called Lovac feature, Stari Grad,

Page 31995

 1     Srebrenica.

 2             Does that mean anything to you?

 3        A.   At the time, I understood that to be a hunter's lodge but since

 4     they say Lovac here, I suppose it's the same building where the command

 5     of the 8th OG was, whereas in July 1995 that was actually the

 6     28th Division.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we have 4D671, please.  For those of you who

 8     have the benefit of the trial books that we have just distributed, this

 9     is image number 18, and the title of it is:  "Google Earth image

10     Srebrenica town zoomed on the southern end."

11        Q.   Looking at this image, can you locate on this image the location

12     of the hunting lodge that you're referring to?

13        A.   I'm not quite sure where this building called Lovac is.  In

14     addition to that, all I can say is that it was in town.  I'd rather not

15     guess by looking at this image; however, it might be or it must be within

16     the reach of main roads.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have the assistance of the usher, please,

18     I would like to have an image placed on the ELMO.

19        Q.   Sir, does that refresh your recollection as to where the hunting

20     lodge was located?  Was it located where the circle is drawn?

21        A.   Well, now it's becoming obvious, I think, that that's it.

22        Q.   Well, I suppose I should ask you now that you've seen the

23     marking, does that remind you that that's where it was?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  We can remove that from the ELMO.  Could we have

Page 31996

 1     4D8, please.

 2        Q.   This is an unsigned report by the State Security Service of the

 3     Bosnian Ministry of the Interior, it's dated the 28th of August, 1995,

 4     and in effect, this appears to be a post mortem on the fall of

 5     Srebrenica.

 6        A.   Yes, that's how it looks like to me as well.

 7        Q.   There is a heading which says:  "Continued description of

 8     negotiations," and then below that, it says:  "The division command was

 9     in the old town sector and the hunting lodge.  On the last day,

10     11 July 1995, it was impossible to approach this building because it was

11     under constant fire from the Chetniks."

12             Now, sir, my question is do you have any -- now that you've seen

13     this, do you have any independent recollection about whether you received

14     reports of combat going on around this facility?

15        A.   No, I don't remember any specific report indicating that units

16     fired at this facility, at least my units didn't.  Whether those were

17     units from the Bratunac Brigade or the support units for the corps, that

18     is quite possible.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  All right.  Can we have 4D135 now again.  I'd like

20     to go to page 2 of the English; and on the B/C/S, it's just at the very

21     bottom of page 1, going over to page 2.  It's item 4, number 1.

22     Referring to the 282nd Brigade, it says -- this again is the listing of

23     office space used by various units, and it says:

24             "Domavija Hotel, Srebrenica, used by the 282nd Brigade, the area

25     covers 427 square metres; purpose, office space of the brigade command

Page 31997

 1     depot, kitchen and training hall."

 2             Now, perhaps we could just put 4D670 back up on the screen,

 3     please, if it's not still there.  This should be image 17 in your books.

 4        Q.   Now, by any chance can you make out the location of the

 5     Hotel Domavija on this image?

 6        A.   All I know is that Hotel Domavija from this sharp curve that we

 7     already mentioned is more to the east or somewhat to the south as well.

 8     It's just beneath the slopes where some mineral springs are.  However, in

 9     this map, it could be here in the upper right-hand corner or even --

10     well, I'm not quite sure.

11             I was near the hotel in Srebrenica when we entered, but I really

12     can't find my bearings with this image.

13        Q.   In any event, sir, the hotel is on this image; isn't that right?

14        A.   Since you are showing it to me, it's possible and I'm sure that

15     it is.  However, at that time, I didn't have a bird's view of the city or

16     the town so that I know exactly which building is.  If I were to go to

17     Srebrenica, I would be able to locate Hotel Domavija immediately.

18             It is possible that it's within this complex just below the

19     forest area, because I remember the forest quite clearly.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir, that's very helpful, and I'm grateful for your

21     patience because I understand that you did not have a bird's eye view in

22     July 1995.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Now I'd like to go back to 4D135 for one last

24     location.  This will be English page 2 and B/C/S page 2.  And it's

25     item 6.

Page 31998

 1        Q.   Referring to the 284th Brigade, it says:  "Directorate of the

 2     Radnik GP Construction Company Srebrenica.  Total area of the

 3     284th Brigade is 187 square metres.  The feature is used for the command

 4     of the 284th."

 5             Does the Radnik -- does that name Radnik GP Construction Company

 6     mean anything to you?

 7        A.   I cannot remember now where this building is.

 8        Q.   Sir, if I were to put it to you that that is the same location as

 9     the shopping centre, would that mean anything to you?

10        A.   Yes, I know where the department store used to be and where it

11     probably still is.  It's in downtown on the main street.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much.  We're done with the video and

13     the images for the moment.

14        Q.   Sir, during your testimony, you were asked about a mobilisation

15     order --

16             MR. GOSNELL:  And that was 1D698.  If we could have that put up

17     on the screen, please.

18        Q.   As I understand it, this is the mobilisation order for -- from

19     the Drina Corps command, dated the 15th of July.  This is a mobilisation

20     of non-assigned conscripts and it's a request -- I'm sorry.  It's not an

21     order, it's a request.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now I'd like to -- sir, if you could just take that request out

24     of your binder, please.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  And on e-court I would like to have 4D650, please.

Page 31999

 1        Q.   1D698 is a request in respect of the Zvornik area --

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  This is clearly an order.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I was just reading from the document.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  When you get to the end and General Krstic tells

 5     somebody to do something, I think it's pretty clear what it is.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.  I think you've both made things

 7     clear and I think we know what we're talking about here.

 8             Go straight to your question, please.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you wish to refer to any particular part of this

11     document, please do so straight away.

12             MR. GOSNELL:

13        Q.   Now, sir, looking at 4D650, whether it be characterised as an

14     order or a request, 4D650 is a request or order in respect of various

15     other municipalities, namely, Vlasenica, Milici, Skelani, Bratunac, and

16     Sekovici.  Are these two, when you compare these documents, are they in

17     the same form?

18        A.   Both documents have the same purpose, they were signed - if I can

19     read it - Assistant Chief of Staff for organisation and mobilisation of

20     the Drina Corps command, Lieutenant-Colonel Jovicic.  And in the heading,

21     he properly said "request."  The document which refers to the conscripts

22     in the area of Zvornik is fully in compliance with the legal processes.

23     And the other one that we see on the screen now contains some terms that

24     can be interpreted as orders, and this is not the way to address draft

25     offices.  However, since this document was also forwarded to the

Page 32000

 1     brigades, Mr. Jovicic decided to use these terms that are stronger and

 2     then can sound as an order.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Thank you very

 4     much, General.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You're welcome.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 7             Do you prefer to have the break now, Mr. McCloskey or do you wish

 8     to start straight away?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can get started and I can probably just deal

10     with the some of the Borovcanin issues since we can remember those.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So let's start.  Your estimate is still

12     of around 20 hours.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll have a better idea at the end of the day.  I

14     hope it's less than that.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Right.  Thank you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I hope very much that it's less than that.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's start.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I'd

21     like to say something before Mr. McCloskey takes to the floor.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Before all the Defence

24     teams started their cross-examinations, I had a list of exhibits that are

25     going to be used and therefore I would be obliged if Mr. McCloskey could

Page 32001

 1     provide me with a similar list because I would like to know in advance

 2     what lies ahead of me.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey, I suppose you have made that list

 4     available to Mr. Haynes already?

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  And -- but that doesn't necessarily mean that the

 7     witness has a copy of it.  We have a copy of it.  So --

 8             MR. HAYNES:  Well, you'll know it came through a few minutes ago.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

10             MR. HAYNES:  And General Pandurevic is quite correct, we were

11     having some debate as to what the current state of practice was because

12     your original order, in fact, states that lists should be served the

13     minute the witness takes the witness stand, but it's sort of fallen into

14     abeyance.  Everybody else provided me with advanced copies, by which I

15     mean days in advance of their cross-examination.  The Prosecution list

16     has just come through.  Perhaps we can take the break and he can see the

17     list now; and if it is such as he would like to consider it longer before

18     the cross-examination starts, I'll let you know after the break.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

20             MR. HAYNES:  I think it runs to 20-odd pages.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The rule, as we have always understood it, was

23     that the list is sent out at the start of cross-examination.  So I don't

24     know where this is coming from.  That's the rule we're going on.  If the

25     General wants to see the battle plan before the battle, no objection.  I

Page 32002

 1     think that's consistent with your previous ruling.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a 25-minute break now.  Thank you.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Haynes.

 7             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you.  Well, as you would expect us to do, we

 8     have got together to see how best we can proceed without any risk of

 9     losing any court time.  However, I feel I must say something historical

10     about all this because I was rather surprised to hear Mr. McCloskey say

11     in answer to Mr. Pandurevic's request that he didn't know where this

12     coming from.  And for his benefit, where it was coming from was the

13     Trial Chamber's order of the 26th of May, chapter 3 of which reads:

14             "Lists of documents or other material to be used by the

15     Prosecution and the other Defence teams when cross-examining a Defence

16     witness must be disclosed to the Defence calling the witness at the

17     commencement of the examination-in-chief of that witness after the

18     witness has made the solemn declaration pursuant to Rule 90(a) of the

19     rules.

20             "H:  Concurrently the Prosecution and the other Defence teams

21     must release to the Defence team calling the witness via the e-court

22     system any documents or other material not already in the possession of

23     the Defence team calling the witness that form part of the lists of the

24     documents or material to be used during cross-examination."

25             I pause there.  There are therefore two obligations, mandatory

Page 32003

 1     obligations.  One, to serve a list; the other to disclose.  They are

 2     separate and divisible in my view.

 3             "I:  Should the Prosecution or the other Defence teams seek to

 4     use a document or material during cross-examination that has not been

 5     listed and disclosed, they may be permitted to do so on sharing good

 6     cause for not listing it and disclosing it."  I pause again.

 7             On the face of it, the however many, 400-and-odd documents on

 8     this list would need to have your leave to be used at this point in time.

 9             "J:  In such a case and if the need arises, the Defence team

10     calling the witness may then request a short adjournment of the

11     proceedings to examine the said document or material."

12             Now, it's none of my business here to cause anybody embarrassment

13     but I have raised the contents of this order with everybody here prior to

14     my client going into the witness box and the response from the Defence

15     teams has been voluntarily to disclose their list of documents well in

16     advance.  The practice heretofore, frankly, I don't care about.  My

17     client is the only accused who has gone into the witness box, and as an

18     accused, as per your more recent order, he stands in a very different

19     position to any other witness in the case.  He's entitled to know, in my

20     submission, all the material upon which the Prosecution rely and that

21     includes all material which they might use in his cross-examination.

22             The list which has just been served, I haven't counted them, runs

23     to 23 pages and I'm guessing something approaching 500 documents.  183 of

24     them are entirely new to this case.  They've never appeared on a 65 ter

25     list or any list of exhibits before, and in my submission, Mr. Pandurevic

Page 32004

 1     is entitled to see those documents and all the documents that might be

 2     used in the case against him.

 3             However, as I said, I have no wish to cause a hiatus in

 4     proceedings and I've spoken to Mr. McCloskey and the mode of procedure, I

 5     think we can agree upon, is that he can get started with his

 6     cross-examination, he can deal with what he terms the Borovcanin issues,

 7     and we will suck it and see thereafter; but I've made it plain I would

 8     prefer it if during the course of the remainder of today, no new document

 9     were used in cross-examination.  And on that basis, I think we can

10     probably fill the day's proceedings without my needing to ask you simply

11     to adjourn so that General Pandurevic can see all of these new documents

12     that have been placed upon this list at this moment in time.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.  Do you agree,

14     Mr. McCloskey?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In part.  I don't necessarily read the Court's

16     order exactly how he reads it.  I'd have to go back and look at it again.

17     We never received any lists from any Defence for any cross until it was

18     started, according to what I am told.  And we have assembled this list,

19     it's been an ongoing thing.  We finished it, well, last night and a few

20     more this morning.  If they need more time to prepare, I have no

21     objection to that.  But I would like to get started and I don't think

22     there is going to be any big surprises here.  There's not meant to be

23     any.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's start and then play it by ear.

25             Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

Page 32005

 1             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just like to

 2     raise a quick issue concerning the 183 documents which are new to this

 3     case and which have been added to this list.

 4             A preliminary review of those documents reveals that there are

 5     documents to which we will object being used during cross-examination of

 6     this witness.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

 8             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There are many documents from the 1993 period

10     which I really had no intention of going into; however, they spent days

11     in 1993 as -- on issues of opening the column and there is a lot of

12     documents on those issues and I have brought those documents and other

13     documents in that I did not originally intend to to respond to issues.

14             So I don't know what the 189 really is at this point, but they

15     are in response to issues that have been raised by and large.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  If my colleagues agree we'll deal with that as and

17     if it arises.  So let's start with your cross-examination and your

18     claimed rights, Mr. Haynes, for the time are put on hold but reserved, of

19     course.

20             MR. HAYNES:  Thank you very much indeed.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's start.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

23        Q.   General, good afternoon.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   And we don't, of course, need to introduce each other.  We have

Page 32006

 1     spoken many years ago now, as counsel brought out; is that correct?

 2        A.   True, yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, let me start by, just because it's fresh in my

 4     mind, some of the Borovcanin issues that were brought up and are related

 5     actually to your other testimony in some ways.

 6             You may recall that Miroslav Deronjic has testified and that his

 7     testimony from a previous hearing is part of the evidence in this case;

 8     is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you remember when Deronjic said that he went to see

11     President Karadzic on the 8th or 9th of July and he was -- said something

12     about requesting Karadzic to bring in Mr. Borovcanin.  Do you remember

13     that?

14        A.   In principle, yes, but I can't remember any specific details.

15        Q.   What do you remember about that?

16        A.   Precisely the few thoughts that you've shared with us, the

17     thoughts contained in the couple of sentences that you quoted.

18        Q.   Basically that -- and I haven't looked at the testimony either,

19     I'm going on my recollection, that one of the reasons he went to see him

20     was to suggest he bring in Ljubisa Borovcanin and his unit because they

21     were a good unit and that they could assist in the Srebrenica case -- the

22     Srebrenica battle.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment before you answer the question.

24     Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I object to questions being asked

Page 32007

 1     about evidence in this case.  What's the point of having the witness

 2     offer characterisations about statements that are in evidence under

 3     92 quater?  It's a pointless exercise.  It's not what the Chamber should

 4     be hearing.  It's not evidence.  The statement itself is evidence and his

 5     commentary or his recollection of what that statement might say really

 6     serves no purpose for the Chamber.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We've been bringing up facts from other witnesses

 9     and evidence to help form the foundation of a question for two and a

10     half, three years.  I don't think there's anything prejudicial or

11     problematic about that question.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Let me consult with my colleagues,

13     please.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  With the understanding that we don't know whether

16     this is a solitary question or whether it's to be followed by others on

17     the same, for the time being, we believe that it is a perfectly

18     legitimate question and you may proceed with your answer, Mr. Pandurevic.

19             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we at least have a page reference, then?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, that's coming, I suppose.

22             Yes, Mr. ...

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't think I'm required to give a page

24     reference to something that I remember during an hour of

25     cross-examination, and in this situation, if that was a requirement, it

Page 32008

 1     would have us to stop and go -- so far the General and I agree on what

 2     was roughly said.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.  And if it becomes more complicated

 4     then we will ask you for a reference for sure.  Thank you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Because the -- I've got some excellent folks

 6     here, e-court page is 242, 284 to 290, and the testimony is P3139.

 7        Q.   Now, in your history from being a commander in Bosnia from I

 8     think it was April of 1992 through the end of the war, were you ever in a

 9     position where SDS officials brought in units of their choosing to assist

10     you in your operations?

11        A.   I don't remember any such situation.  I don't remember any member

12     of the SDS being involved in any such thing.  However, I'm familiar with

13     a similar situation, situations of a similar nature.  Certain municipal

14     authorities would set their own priorities of the war and they would try

15     to exert influence on the president of the republic and the Main Staff in

16     order to have some priority actions being carried out in the territory of

17     their municipality rather than elsewhere.

18             I suppose that some or most of these municipal leaders belonged

19     to the SDS.  However, their requests were not of political or partisan

20     nature.  I believe that such requests were justified by some other

21     reasons.

22        Q.   But we can agree in this situation that the Borovcanin unit

23     coming to assist in Srebrenica was something that was helpful.

24        A.   Before the operation was launched, I didn't know that the MUP

25     would participate in any way.  I knew that there was a special MUP

Page 32009

 1     brigade.  I don't know whether Mr. Deronjic specifically requested for

 2     that brigade because it was special and because it was a good combat

 3     unit.  I suppose that that must have been the reason and I wouldn't say

 4     that it was because Mr. Borovcanin was the deputy commander of the

 5     brigade.  I don't know what reasons governed Deronjic, however, my post

 6     festum information says that the keys of Srebrenica had already been

 7     obtained before the unit under the command of Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin was

 8     introduced into fighting and engaged.

 9        Q.   The keys to Srebrenica, yes, the keys to Potocari, no?

10        A.   In combat terms, Potocari had its door ajar, if we are going to

11     use figurative speech, and Borovcanin had to do some security tasks in

12     terms of controlling the remaining forces scouring of the terrain because

13     some forces had opted for that direction to pull out of Potocari.

14        Q.   Where on the morning of the 12th of July, a Bratunac Brigade

15     soldier was killed by a mine clearing a minefield for Mr. Borovcanin and

16     his units; correct?

17        A.   As far as I can understand, he was opening a passage through the

18     minefield that had been set by the Bratunac Brigade.  On the 12th, we

19     were not aware of all the intentions of the 28th Division.  It was only

20     logical because of that for Mr. Borovcanin and his units to be engaged on

21     the direction between Bratunac and Potocari and I mean primarily the

22     village of Milacevici, if my memory serves me well.

23        Q.   So you agree with me a Bratunac Brigade soldier was --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  I return to my original objection, because I

Page 32010

 1     believe that what we're now hearing is evidence about evidence.  Now I

 2     may be wrong.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  But we have been doing that all the time.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  But Mr. President, there --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  When it is relevant.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  If I may, there is a distinction between using

 7     evidence in order to provoke a memory of firsthand knowledge of

 8     observations of things that really happened.  If this is going to turn

 9     into a long cross-examination series of questions and answers about this

10     case, well, then I would suggest that that's improper, but of course,

11     it's not improper to ask a question to provoke a memory of what happened

12     at the time.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, as you know, Lieutenant-Colonel,

14     at the time, Pandurevic was in the area that we're talking about.  He

15     said he went through Potocari on the night of the 11th.  These are all

16     interrelated to this case.  This is an absurd objection and it should

17     stop.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  You don't need to use such dramatic and

19     harsh language, Mr. McCloskey.  Let us decide.

20             Yes, Mr. Haynes.

21             MR. HAYNES:  Perhaps a way out of this is simply if Mr. McCloskey

22     inquires when the General came by the information as to the death of the

23     Bratunac Brigade that may, as it were, help you decide what weight this

24     evidence has got, whether it's direct evidence or a commentary on what

25     he's read in the course of the last few years.

Page 32011

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Haynes.

 2             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, when the General suggests to me

 4     that the fighting is over and that Borovcanin maybe just had a little

 5     security work, I think it's perfectly fair for me to remind him of a

 6     soldier's death, that this was still going on, that this was more than

 7     security work.  This is cross-examination.  That's what this is -- this

 8     is what's going on here.  That's what this is about.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are unanimous on this.  For the time being you

12     may proceed, Mr. McCloskey, and I think you were about to put another

13     question, the previous one had been answered.  Correct me if I am wrong.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I really don't recall, Mr. President.

15        Q.   I was just trying to get him to confirm that an answer to my

16     first question that there was a Bratunac soldier that was killed helping

17     Borovcanin's unit; correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I will agree with you that I only heard about that during

19     this trial.  Srebrenica fell on the 11th but the fighting against the

20     28th Division was not completed and it is in that sense that

21     Mr. Borovcanin was given certain tasks.

22        Q.   And you may recall in the discussion that Deronjic said that the

23     president made comments about the solution of Western Slavonia.  Do you

24     know what President Karadzic was talking about when he talked about

25     Western Slavonia?

Page 32012

 1        A.   I read this statement by Mr. Deronjic a long time ago.  I did not

 2     listen to his testimony so it's very hard for me to speak of all the

 3     details and we all know only too well what happened in Western Slavonia.

 4        Q.   Well, I think it's something that from Mr. Deronjic's testimony

 5     was very important for him and very important for the president, but

 6     could you tell us your perspective, just briefly.  I don't want a long

 7     story of Western Slavonia, but what was he talking about?  What was the

 8     Serb perception of what happened to Serbs in Western Slavonia not long

 9     before this?

10        A.   The Croatian army won a major victory in Western Slavonia,

11     amongst other things.

12        Q.   And were there allegations of abuse of civilians by the Croatians

13     against the Serbs?

14        A.   I know that the Serbian population left the area, they fled the

15     area, and as far as I know, there were no charges brought for that.

16     Nothing has happened so far to that effect.

17        Q.   Didn't President Karadzic think that as those civilians were

18     leaving that they were victimised and shot and killed, some of them?

19        A.   I don't know what Mr. Karadzic meant, but we know what the

20     situation was in Potocari.  The Muslim civilian population did not

21     scatter and run through the forest.  They were not shot at in the forest.

22     Instead they all gathered in Potocari.

23        Q.   That wasn't my question.  Can you answer my question?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  The question calls for speculation.  It asks -- the

Page 32013

 1     question is what does -- what did President Karadzic think?  How is this

 2     witness going to tell us what President Karadzic may have thought?

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's based on the statement that Mr. Deronjic

 5     said and it's based on what Mr. Karadzic said to Deronjic that Serbs were

 6     victimised as they were forced to leave Western Slavonia and as he told

 7     this to Deronjic he was very upset and was suggesting the same thing

 8     happened in Srebrenica.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I mean --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's in evidence and I want to find out if any

11     of that from the President got its way down to the troops on the line.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I stand to be corrected by my colleagues but I read

13     your question when you used word "think" is was it as meaning the -- was

14     it the belief of President Karadzic that those civilians were victimised,

15     shot and killed.  So as far as I am concerned, unless I -- yes, okay,

16     then please, Mr. Pandurevic, go ahead and answer the question, please.

17             One moment.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's proceed.  Thank you.

20             Mr. McCloskey, he has already answered you in a way so do you

21     want to pursue the matter further --

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just briefly.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- or do you want to move to your next question?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just briefly.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

Page 32014

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   On July 11th, were you aware of what had happened to the Serbs in

 3     Western Slavonia?

 4        A.   I believe that Western Slavonia happened in May of that year but

 5     on the 11th of July, I was not thinking of that.

 6        Q.   But were you aware that it had happened, that Serbs had been

 7     victimised in Western Slavonia by Croats?

 8        A.   Yes, I knew.  Maybe the president had in mind that whole

 9     situation and didn't want something like that to happen to the Muslims;

10     he wanted us to act differently.

11        Q.   Perhaps.  Perhaps.  Now, when General Mladic, on the 11th of

12     July, looked into the camera and said something like, Now on the

13     anniversary of the uprising against the Dahijes, it's time to take

14     revenge upon the Turks in this area," what do you think he meant by that?

15     And I think we've established what the uprising against the Dahis is, so

16     I don't think you need to go into that.

17        A.   At that time, I was not next to Mladic, I didn't watch TV either.

18     I saw that statement of his among the material here at the trial and in

19     my view, this statement doesn't make sense because there were no Dahijes

20     there, there were no Turks there and as to what remains of the past he

21     had in his mind, I don't know.  Maybe he was involved in some sort of a

22     third Serb uprising after Karadjordje [Realtime transcript read in error

23     "Karadzic"] and Milos, I don't know.

24        Q.   So I take it in your times with him that you described

25     Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vijo Gora, did he give you any indication of what

Page 32015

 1     he had in mind for the Muslim population, including the soldiers?

 2        A.   No, he didn't recount his statements to me.  You could see in the

 3     footage how my first encounter with him commenced and how it ended.

 4     Something similar happened in the meeting in Bratunac on the 11th, in

 5     Vijo Gora, it was the same, a monologue delivered by Mladic, therefore he

 6     didn't tell me anything.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Haynes.

 8             MR. HAYNES:  I don't want to interrupt but there may be a rather

 9     important transcription error at line 22.  I don't believe --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  All right.  He mentioned one of the kings,

11     Karadjordjevic or something like that he mentioned.  You have Karadzic

12     there on line 22, and it was certainly not Karadzic; it was

13     Karadjordjevic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Karadjordje, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move.  It's a simple correction that needs to

16     be done.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   Now you have testified that on the evening of 11 July you drove

19     through Potocari through a crowd of Muslims, went through Yellow Bridge

20     and on to Bratunac and you came back the same way later that night;

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes, I did go back but I didn't take the same route.

23        Q.   And why didn't you take the same route back?

24        A.   If I had known what the situation would be on my way in, I

25     wouldn't take it.  Since I saw the situation and how dangerous it was, I

Page 32016

 1     didn't dare to take the same route but I rather chose a safer one.

 2        Q.   And as I think you know but it's the position of the Prosecution

 3     that you did, in fact, make that trip but that you did it on the 12th of

 4     July and we'll get into a bit later.  But when you went through that area

 5     which you say was the 11th of July, did you see any forces assembling

 6     around the area of Yellow Bridge preparing to go in the next morning?

 7        A.   No, I don't remember seeing any forces.  I know that there were

 8     men, soldiers, on the Serbian side at the checkpoint near the Yellow

 9     Bridge.  I didn't know that any of our forces were being prepared to be

10     brought in from that side.

11        Q.   And when you went through Potocari, did you see any German

12     Shepherd dogs amongst any of the troops?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And you didn't see Mr. Borovcanin or his units at all around

15     Yellow Brigade or Bratunac despite the evidence we've heard that they

16     were coming into the area?

17        A.   No, I didn't see them.

18        Q.   And when Mr. Borovcanin was with you on the 15th at the Standard

19     and you sent him off to Baljkovica, were you aware, did he have dog units

20     with him?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   You've seen the film of Potocari shot on the 12th which is the

23     date that we believe you were in Potocari on the evening.  You've seen

24     large numbers or you've seen a number of German Shepherd dogs on that

25     video; haven't you?

Page 32017

 1        A.   No, Mr. McCloskey, I passed through Potocari on the 11th.  I

 2     wasn't there on the 12th, therefore I couldn't have seen them.

 3        Q.   But you've seen the video of the 12th where there were dogs in

 4     Potocari amongst the crowd being held by troops; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, I have to be very careful when I speak about what I saw in

 6     reality and when I speak about the events from that period and finally

 7     what I've seen in the course of this trial.  That is why I want to

 8     highlight this distinction.

 9        Q.   I understand and I will try to make sure my questions highlight

10     that distinction as well.  So to be clear, what I'm talking about is your

11     viewing the video, did you see the dogs in the video that was shot of the

12     12th?

13        A.   Yes, I've seen this footage here and I think that there are dogs

14     there.

15        Q.   And of course it's the position of the Prosecutor that you went

16     through on the 12th, but in that regard, can you tell us who do you think

17     those dogs belonged to?  What units?

18        A.   Based on the footage that I've seen and the trial so far, I can

19     tell you that they belonged to a MUP unit.  At the time, I didn't know

20     who they belonged to.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we see Exhibit 4104.

22        Q.   I think this is a one-page document, General.  I will have bigger

23     documents for you and I -- this is something that I'm just responding to

24     now.  So if you could help us with this, we see that it is from the

25     Ministry of the Interior, dated 12 July, to the commander for centre for

Page 32018

 1     breeding and training of police dogs.  It's entitled:  "In order to take

 2     over tasks of the mopping up the terrain in the Srebrenica section."

 3             It says:  "Urgently dispatch all available guides and police dogs

 4     to the Srebrenica sector."

 5             MR. MCCLOSKEY:  If we could go up in English a bit.

 6        Q.   "Upon arrival in Srebrenica, contact Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy

 7     commander of the CBP who commands the police forces in Srebrenica and

 8     make arrangements on what to do next.

 9             "In accordance with the previous dispatch, you need to leave two

10     guides with police dogs at the centre for tasks in the area of Sokolac.

11             "Guides with police dogs need to report to Srebrenica by 0600.

12             "Send a dispatch to the police forces staff headquarters in Pale

13     quoting the above reference to notify them once the engaged troops and

14     police dogs have been dispatched to the terrain."  By Tomislav Kovac.

15             So does this correspond to your opinion that these were MUP dogs?

16        A.   Well, this dispatch is self-explanatory, it says that dogs should

17     be dispatched.  I didn't know at all if they had this centre for breeding

18     and training dogs, where it was.  I don't know when this was written.  It

19     says by 6.00 on the 12th, whether it's 6.00 in the morning or 6.00 in the

20     afternoon, I don't know, but it's obviously -- the document obviously

21     speaks about police dogs.

22        Q.   So this does correspond to your opinion that they -- these dogs

23     on the 12th in Potocari were MUP dogs?

24        A.   All I can say is that the footage that I see, I cannot say that

25     it refers to the 12th or not.  We saw dogs in this film, dogs are

Page 32019

 1     mentioned in this document, and this document was produced by the MUP.

 2        Q.   Do you know that -- whether or not dogs, MUP dogs were used in

 3     the clearing of the -- or sweeping of the terrain from 17, 18, 19 July in

 4     the Zvornik area with the MUP?

 5        A.   As far as I know, they were not in Baljkovica.  I didn't see a

 6     single dog.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Did you have a good professional relationship with

 8     General Krstic during this time period?

 9        A.   We had a standard official relationship, nothing special about

10     it.

11        Q.   Well, I ask you that because we saw in 65 ter 1206 A is the

12     English, 1206 C is the B/C/S, that's the 17 July intercept where you have

13     a short discussion with General Krstic and we --

14             MR. MCCLOSKEY:  If we can get that up on the screen.  It's the

15     bottom part in the English that I want to refer to.

16        Q.   It's very simple, General -- page 2 in the B/C/S.  I'm -- I hope

17     you can see this but I'm just referring to the part when Krstic gets on

18     the radio and says, "This is Krstic."  And you say, "Hello, General,

19     sir."

20             He says, "Hello, Vinko, Vinko."  So he's referring to you by your

21     first name which is more than just an official relationship; do you

22     agree?

23        A.   I don't agree, Mr. McCloskey, and allow me to explain this kind

24     of relationship.

25        Q.   Please do.

Page 32020

 1        A.   If we are talking about what we call military mannerisms by

 2     officers, the superior officers normally addressed the low-ranking

 3     officers by their first name.  Mr. Mladic even called me "little boy."

 4     That was just a customary way of addressing, that's why he addressed me

 5     as Vinko.  Even when we were together as brigade commanders we were not

 6     friends, we did not socialise.  He was much older than I was and he

 7     believed that, in a way, he may treat me as a junior officer not only in

 8     terms of my rank but also in terms of my age.

 9        Q.   And he also says going down further, "It's going fine but it

10     would be better if you were there too."  This isn't an official kind of a

11     comment.  He's saying it would be better if you were there with him.

12             Then he goes on and says, "Take care of that and we'll see

13     what -- bud," which is another informal way of dealing with someone,

14     page 2 in the English.

15        A.   When he says "you" he is not addressing me personally, he is

16     talking in plural which means referring to my unit.  Krstic often used

17     the word "burazer," or "brother," one form of the word "brother."  He

18     also used the word "chief."  I didn't like these terms and I didn't want

19     to call anyone chief, particularly in the army.

20        Q.   Well, as you've said, you met with his defence team.  Did you

21     meet with him in those days that you were meeting with his defence team?

22        A.   No, he was here at the time.

23        Q.   Did you speak to him on the phone?

24        A.   No, I didn't.  It was impossible for me to call him and he didn't

25     call me.

Page 32021

 1        Q.   You don't think if you had asked the defence team to get him on

 2     the phone, they would have been able to do that?

 3        A.   As far as I can remember, I didn't ask for him to call me so that

 4     I can speak to him.

 5             MR. MCCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 330, and that is

 6     the 16 July interim combat report and I would like page 2 in the English.

 7        Q.   General, as that's coming up, I hope we don't -- I know we've

 8     seen over the years that especially officers, I think, both the VRS and

 9     BiH don't like repeating themselves and being asked to repeat themselves.

10     That obviously gets annoying and I hope we don't have to do too much of

11     that but I'm sure you understand that we will be going over some of the

12     same ground and I may ask you, I probably already have, to repeat

13     yourself somewhat, but it is normally because I have, perhaps, a

14     different slant or take on it that I want to bring out.

15             Okay.  And what -- you've talked a lot about this interim report,

16     and I don't need to hear all of it again, but what I do want to

17     particularly point out, I believe it's in paragraph 3, and it's where you

18     state when you're talking about the opening of the corridor:

19             "It is likely that a certain number of soldiers got out among the

20     civilians, but all who passed, passed through unarmed."

21             I think you have said that that statement was false, that that

22     was not true.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And that as we have seen when the corridor was opened up,

25     everyone that could got out and that would have included soldiers and

Page 32022

 1     those that may have had guns took them with them; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, I have seen them myself passing by and bearing arms.

 3        Q.   So you boldly wrote down in this report to General Krstic

 4     something you knew to be a lie.

 5        A.   Well, once the passion simmered down I expect people react in a

 6     different way.  I formulated this as I did at the time because I thought

 7     that was a better solution at a given moment.

 8        Q.   But to answer my question, you boldly told him a rather

 9     significant lie in this report?

10        A.   Since the decision was mine and I took it on my own, and I knew

11     that he definitely wouldn't agree with it at first -- at least initially,

12     I had no other option but to send him a false report as I did.

13        Q.   So you agree with me?

14        A.   I agree with you.

15        Q.   And my question is this:  You've told us that on the 15th of

16     July, you were -- really after you got up there and got a look at what

17     was going on, that you were -- had decided to open a corridor but you

18     didn't do it until the next morning or the next morning, early afternoon

19     on the 16th; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You did not seek authorisation from General Krstic before opening

22     the corridor, did you?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   Why, when you opened the corridor on the 16th, why didn't you

25     seek authorisation from General Krstic?  You had had many men killed by

Page 32023

 1     that point.  Why did you not call him up and seek his authorisation to

 2     open up a corridor?  Why instead did you choose to lie to him?  First

 3     part -- I'm sorry that's a two-part question.  Let me hit you with the

 4     first one.

 5             Why did you not call him and seek his authorisation?

 6        A.   Because he had given me a clear task.  If I asked him what I

 7     would do, he said he would have told me, You know what to do.  You have

 8     my order.  And for that reason, I did this on my own initiative.

 9             I already had that idea on the 15th but I was just waiting for a

10     good opportunity and a good reason that people around me would be aware

11     of so that in the future, someone would be able to say yes, Vinko acted

12     properly although it was in contravention of the order that he had

13     received.

14        Q.   General, I understand that on the night of the 15th, you had

15     clear orders and nothing significant had changed.  But by the morning of

16     the 16th, the battle had occurred.  I don't want to get into the details

17     of that battle with you.  You will agree with me that Serb soldiers died.

18             Why didn't you at that time call General Krstic and seek

19     authorisations?  Why would you choose to lie?

20        A.   Quite simply, by the moment when I resumed my talks with Semso, I

21     had no idea how many men had been killed; however, the decisive

22     information to reestablish contact with Semso was the one given to me by

23     Obrenovic which he had received from Semso Salihovic, an officer from the

24     28th Division, which spoke about a disastrous situation in the

25     28th Division.  I didn't seek authorisation from anyone.  I took this

Page 32024

 1     decision independently and I acted on my own.  Simply, it was my personal

 2     choice.

 3        Q.   I understand but why did you not seek authorisation after the

 4     battle?

 5        A.   I didn't seek authorisation because I believed that I wouldn't be

 6     granted one.  I would just be told, You are not carrying out your tasks.

 7     Either you are afraid or what's happening to you?

 8        Q.   So you felt you knew General Krstic wanted that column fought and

 9     destroyed and that he would say no to you; correct?

10        A.   That was the task that he had issued me.  That's right.

11        Q.   And we know that if that's the task General Krstic had in mind,

12     fighting and destroying that column, we can reasonably conclude that that

13     was the Main Staff's order as well, can't we?

14        A.   Probably Krstic received such an order from the Main Staff.

15        Q.   I think you described "destroy" for us in the military context,

16     and correct me if I am wrong, but in this context it would have meant

17     killing the enemy and taking them prisoner.

18        A.   That would mean to bring them into such a state that they no

19     longer pose a military threat.  This can be achieved either by physical

20     destruction in combat, certain percentage, but it can also be achieved by

21     taking prisoner.

22        Q.   And so as you sit here today, what do you believe would have

23     happened to any prisoners that you would have taken pursuant to your

24     orders to destroy the column on 16 July?

25        A.   I didn't have an order first to capture and then destroy.  If all

Page 32025

 1     these men had been captured, I wouldn't have a solution for them.  I

 2     wouldn't know where to put them because there were no such facilities in

 3     the area of Zvornik capable of accommodating such a large number of

 4     people.  I would ask the corps command either to arrange for an immediate

 5     exchange or to let those people free.

 6             I decided to let them pass through without capturing them.

 7        Q.   If General Krstic and General Mladic had issued orders to have

 8     all the prisoners in Zvornik killed from the 14th to the 16th, would it

 9     be really possible for you to request of General Krstic to allow

10     military-aged men to walk scot-free through a corridor?

11        A.   Since this is a conditional question, "if", I must tell you that

12     this situation did not occur.  And we are not talking about prisoners.

13     Some members of the 28th Division could have become prisoners on the 16th

14     but it didn't happen.

15        Q.   You see, Colonel, it's the Prosecution's position that you're not

16     a man that issues lies to his superiors lightly and that the reason you

17     did it is because you knew that there was no way they were going to go

18     along with it.  That's correct, isn't it?

19        A.   Look, Mr. McCloskey, I never lied to my superior officers.  That

20     would create serious consequences for the VRS army.  I wrote this report

21     as it is in order to assuage the concerns that my superiors had.

22             During the war and my experience, I know that things are easily

23     forgotten after the fact and that nothing would happen with the passage

24     of time.  That is why I wrote this report in this form.

25        Q.   You didn't seek authorisation from them because you know there

Page 32026

 1     was no way they were going to give it; correct?

 2        A.   Whether they would have given it or not I can only speculate.  At

 3     that time, I thought that it was best for me not to call them.

 4        Q.   So you're now saying it's possible they would have said, All

 5     right, General, we don't want you to lose any more of your troops, let's

 6     let these guys through?

 7        A.   Well, now, you see this is a situation that we can only speculate

 8     about.  We will never learn the truth because this was already water

 9     under the bridge.

10             At that time, I decided contrary to the claims by certain Defence

11     counsel here who purport that I will walk over dead bodies in order to

12     reach a goal.  I could have shed blood in Baljkovica in order to carry

13     out my orders, but that's not the kind of man I am.

14        Q.   It's a simple question, General.  I'll try it again.  Do you

15     think there's any way that Krstic was going to allow you to open a

16     corridor?  You've been very clear on that except for your answer that you

17     just made so I want you to think about this carefully.

18        A.   If it's a simple question, it still doesn't mean that the answer

19     to it is going to be simple.  It's usually just the contrary.

20             I can only assume, based on my experience and my knowledge that I

21     gained during the war, and I can assume on the order given to me that

22     Krstic would have not agreed to me opening the corridor.  I have my

23     sincere doubts about that.

24        Q.   Another option you had before you was to tell the truth.  You

25     could have, in that report, said what you said and you could have been

Page 32027

 1     truthful; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, the truth was communicated to him subsequently.

 3        Q.   But again, General, why didn't you choose the truth?  You had it

 4     there.  You were in command.  Your men were dying.  Why didn't you tell

 5     him the truth?  Why did you choose to lie?

 6        A.   I sent the report in the form I did in order to repel any danger

 7     from myself as a person who refused to carry out an order.  That was my

 8     decision at that moment, and it could have been different, of course, but

 9     it was what it was.

10        Q.   You didn't tell the truth because you chose instead to repel any

11     danger from yourself; correct?

12        A.   Yes, at that moment when things were happening the way they did.

13        Q.   What possible danger was it to you to put the truth in your

14     interim combat report of 16 July?

15        A.   First of all, without any previous explanation whatsoever, it

16     would have been clear to everybody that I failed to carry out my orders.

17             Second of all, the situation could have become more complicated,

18     so much so that my initiative could have resulted in such terrible

19     consequences on the Zvornik Brigade and even wider that I would have been

20     in real danger as a result of that.

21        Q.   If you told General Krstic the truth, would you have been in

22     danger from General Krstic or his superior command?

23        A.   I would first be held accountable by my superior, General Krstic.

24     I don't know; whether there would be any pressure put on him by his

25     superiors, I don't know; however, if we go back to that conversation that

Page 32028

 1     we just saw, or the conversation on the 16th in the morning in which he

 2     said, They are all armed, boss, keep pounding away at them.  So, he

 3     told me already back then, keep pounding away at them.

 4        Q.   My question is again simple and I think we can face it right now.

 5     Had you told him the truth that you were -- decided because of your

 6     personal involvement to open a corridor and allow the enemy through, you

 7     very likely could have been relieved of duty then and there; correct?

 8        A.   Now, your question is a bit different to your previous question.

 9     I said explicitly that I was to be held accountable first by Krstic and

10     then his superior.  And as for me being relieved of my duties because of

11     that, if they had wanted to do that, they would have relieved me

12     subsequently.  Although I did hear information that some people were

13     thinking along those lines, that that was an option on the table at one

14     point.

15        Q.   I'll go back to it.  What danger was General Krstic to you?  You

16     are the one that's brought up repelling danger.  What danger was Krstic

17     to you?  Don't like my answer that you would have been relieved, what was

18     it?  What was the danger you were talking about?

19        A.   A failure to carry out on order or a refusal to carry out an

20     order especially during the time of war under such conditions imposes

21     certain punishment.  He could have punished me.  And I didn't send my

22     report in fear of being relieved, because nobody is very happy to command

23     a brigade in the times of war.  It's one of the most difficult positions

24     to be in.

25        Q.   I understand that.  So you're now saying that the reason you did

Page 32029

 1     not tell him the truth and that the fear that you had was fear of

 2     punishment; correct?

 3        A.   Well, if I had been afraid -- this was not a classical fear, no,

 4     but as a professional soldier, I was not used to refusing to carry out an

 5     order.  However, I had to find a logical explanation why I had failed to

 6     carry out an order.  That was what I wanted to do.  That's what I

 7     eventually did.

 8        Q.   And I agree with you, General, you had to find a logical way out

 9     of this, so you chose to lie.  Why didn't you choose just to not say

10     anything?  You could have written in your 16 July report nothing about

11     it.  "We are still undergoing difficult situation with the enemy."  I

12     think I've seen that written about a thousand times, and just leave it.

13     That was another choice you didn't make.  Why didn't you just say

14     nothing?  Why did you have to lie?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

16             MR. HAYNES:  I think we now are in asked and answered territory.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is a brand new area of why he didn't say

18     anything.

19             MR. HAYNES:  No, you can say why did you lie?  Why didn't you

20     tell the truth?  Why didn't you say anything, which would in itself be a

21     lie but you just ask him the same question over and over again and it's

22     oppressive.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I am not asking the same question.  He had that

24     choice.  I think we can see that clearly and logically.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 32030

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are fine with the question.  It's a different

 2     question even though it seeks the kind of the same answer.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   General, it's the same lousy subject and I understand it is, but

 5     it's a different question.  Why didn't you choose that way out, not say

 6     anything?

 7        A.   First of all, it is impossible to send a report without saying

 8     something.  Second of all, if I had been a lawyer, I -- I may have acted

 9     in that way; but I was a commander, a military commander, and my

10     reasoning as a commander in the field and my reasoning as I sit here

11     today in this courtroom are two completely different things.  I really

12     appreciate the way you work, the way I see you work and I would very much

13     love to have a Peter on my Defence team in addition to all the good

14     people that I already have, but I have to tell you how I see things from

15     my perspective as I sit here, and I apologise.

16        Q.   General, I understand that you were acting as a General, you were

17     taking control of the situation.  It's the Prosecution's position you got

18     through this by doing something that was counter to everything you have

19     been raised on in the army, you lied to your superiors because you knew

20     your superiors had death in mind and you had no way out.  You had to lie

21     to them so you could get your men safe because you knew Krstic, Mladic

22     were killing people and there was no way they were going to say yes to

23     you.  Isn't that right, General?  Can't we just deal with it?  Give

24     yourself the credit that is due, that we see in your 15 July report and

25     your 18 July report.  Stop the lying.

Page 32031

 1        A.   Well, Mr. McCloskey, I'm not lying.  What I'm telling you now is

 2     not a lie.  Please find a single piece of evidence to prove that I'm

 3     lying.  These are completely two different things.  My report on the 16th

 4     and my testimony here is not the same lie.  I am not lying now when I am

 5     talking to you.  Give me some evidence to prove that I am lying.

 6             I told you that I have my reservations about the possibility of

 7     Krstic approving the opening of the corridor.  I'm sure that Mladic would

 8     not have allowed me to do that.  And if that was the only lie during the

 9     war, we should have only been so lucky.  Reports are usually fabricated

10     at all levels, they are all lies.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  General, we'll get into the evidence and we'll

12     get into Dragan Obrenovic, I give you Dragan Obrenovic and his guilty

13     plea but I think it's probably a good time for a break.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We'll break now.  The sitting will resume

15     tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

18                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.