1 Tuesday, 6 April 2004

2 [Initial Appearance]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the cases.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honour.

8 This is the Case Number IT-04-74-I, The Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic,

9 Bruno Stojic, Slobodan Praljak, Milivoj Petkovic, Valentin Coric, and

10 Berislav Pusic.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 And may I first ask to all six accused whether they can hear me in

13 a language they understand. Could I perhaps first hear from Mr. Prlic

14 whether he can hear me in a language he understands.

15 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I hear you. I do

16 understand you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Prlic. Then Mr. Stojic.

18 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Praljak.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I could hear in a language I

21 understand. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Same question for Mr. Petkovic.

23 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] I can hear and understand.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Same question for Mr. Coric.

25 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] I hear you well.

1 JUDGE ORIE: And then finally, you, Mr. Pusic, can you also hear

2 me in a language you understand.

3 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] I could hear and understand.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

5 By addressing you all, I take it that you also confirmed your

6 identity, that you are Mr. Prlic, you are Mr. Stojic, you are Mr. Praljak,

7 you are Mr. Petkovic, Mr. Coric, and Mr. Pusic.

8 Then I would like to have the appearances. We have already heard

9 from the accused. Could, perhaps, first counsel present themselves, first

10 counsel for Jadranko Prlic.

11 MR. SALAHOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I'm

12 attorney-at-law, Camil Salahovic from Zagreb representing Mr. Jadranko

13 Prlic. Next to me is my esteemed colleague, Zelimir Par.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Salahovic. Mr. Stojic is assisted by?

15 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I am

16 Zeljko Olujic, attorney-at-law, Defence counsel from Republic of Croatia,

17 Zagreb, representing Mr. Bruno Stojic.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And may I invite counsel for Mr. Praljak

19 to introduce himself.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. My name

21 is Kresimir Krsnik, I'm an attorney-at-law from Zagreb, Republic of

22 Croatia. I will be lead counsel for Mr. Slobodan Praljak. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. Then could counsel for

24 Mr. Petkovic present herself.

25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good afternoon. I'm

1 attorney-at-law Vesna Alaburic. My head office is in Zagreb, Croatia. I

2 will be defending General Milivoj Petkovic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- Mr. Coric is assisted by?

4 MR. JONJIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. I am Tomislav Jonjic,

5 attorney-at-law from Zagreb, Defence counsel for Mr. Valentin Coric.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Jonjic. And then finally, I would like

7 to invite counsel for Mr. Pusic to introduce himself.

8 MR. SKOBIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. I am

9 Marinko Skobic, attorney-at-law from Mostar, Bosnia and Herzegovina. I

10 will be representing Mr. Berislav Pusic.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Skobic. May I have the appearance for

12 the Prosecution.

13 MR. SCOTT: Good afternoon, Your Honour. May it please the Court,

14 appearing on behalf of the Prosecutor, Kenneth Scott, senior trial

15 attorney. With me today are trial attorneys Pieter Kruger, Garlone Egels,

16 Miguel Longone, and our case manager Lakshmie Walpita.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Scott.

18 Then the only anonymous person at this moment is myself. My name

19 is Judge Orie. I am a Judge in Trial Chamber I. The cases against all

20 six of you have been assigned to Trial Chamber I, consisting of Judge Liu,

21 Judge El Mahdi and myself. And Judge Liu has assigned me as

22 Pre-Trial Judge. These decisions have been taken yesterday. I don't know

23 whether the Defence counsel have received already copies of it, but they

24 are available for them.

25 Could I first ask the assistance of -- I have a zoom in my...

1 This is better. So now I don't hear anything at all. I'm just

2 testing. I'm testing my earphones. All yours are functioning, but mine

3 is still not. I am trying to -- is it channel 4? I don't hear anything

4 on channel 4.

5 I apologise for the delay, but I have some additional noise in my

6 earphones. But that shouldn't be a major problem.

7 Having introduced myself, I'd like to explain to you what the

8 purpose of this initial appearance is. Article 20, paragraph 3 of the

9 Statute informs us that I should read the indictment to you, that I should

10 satisfy myself that your rights are respected, and that would specifically

11 mean at this moment that you're informed about the charges that have been

12 brought against you, that your right to be assisted by counsel is

13 respected. Then, I have to satisfy myself that you understand the

14 indictment, and I should instruct you to enter a plea. That means that

15 you enter a plea of guilty or not guilty. Since you arrived only

16 yesterday in The Hague, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence give you an

17 opportunity to enter a plea within the next 30 days. But if you want to

18 enter a plea today, you are allowed to do so.

19 So I'll move to the first part of Article 20 of the Statute. And

20 I have to satisfy myself that you're assisted by counsel. And now I

21 address counsel. I was informed that you're not assigned by the

22 Registrar, but you're all counsel of choice by the accused. Do I have to

23 understand this choice as being a choice on a more permanent basis, or is

24 it mainly for this initial appearance that you'll assist your accused?

25 Could I hear that from each counsel, perhaps first Mr. Salahovic.

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I can answer on

2 behalf of my colleague, Mr. Salahovic and myself. Our client authorised

3 us to represent him on a permanent basis. We know that there is no

4 authorisation that is full guarantee that we'll remain until the end, and

5 we don't know the stance of the Registry for the time being concerning our

6 engagement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 Then, Mr. Olujic.

9 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. What I can

10 say is that it was the will of my client that I should represent him as

11 his Defence counsel, and that implies a permanent basis and the trust that

12 my client has in me. And in keeping with the letter and spirit of the

13 Statute and the Rules of Procedure prevailing in this lofty court, I think

14 there should be no problem because the underlying intent is to protect the

15 fundamental rights of the client, including his right to a defence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 Mr. Olujic, did you discuss with your client that you are

18 assisting at this moment Mr. Rajic who is accused before this Tribunal?

19 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Even before I

20 undertook the Defence of Mr. Bruno Stojic, I discussed with my other

21 client, Mr. Ivica Rajic, who is currently involved in proceedings before

22 this Tribunal. And he unconditionally accepted that I should also defend

23 Mr. Bruno Stojic.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Are there no conflicting interests between your two

25 client, Mr. Olujic?

1 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Is it true that the indictment against

3 Mr. Rajic very much focuses on the Vares municipality, and that the Vares

4 Municipality and what happened here also appears in the present indictment

5 against Mr. Stojic in paragraph 204 and following?

6 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] You are right, Your Honour. The

7 indictment against Mr. Bruno Stojic refers to Stupni Do inter alia.

8 However, when we read the indictment and take into account the scope by

9 which Mr. Bruno Stojic is encompassed in the view of the Prosecution and

10 the role that my client had, we see no points of contact and no reason for

11 any conflicting interests between these two clients, Mr. Ivica Rajic and

12 Mr. Bruno Stojic.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that Mr. Stojic is held responsible for

14 acts for which Mr. Rajic is charged as a perpetrator?

15 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, yes, because that

16 is the way the indictment is worded. But the very position in the

17 hierarchy that my client held had no points of contact with

18 Mr. Ivica Rajic. Mr. Stojic was never in a position to command any troops

19 of police forces, army, or other forces; whereas Mr. Rajic is a military

20 officer of the Croatian Defence Council.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what I understand from the indictment,

22 Mr. Stojic is held responsible not only for nonmilitary, but also for what

23 happened militarily on the ground. Let's not pursue this matter in full

24 detail at this very moment, although the question of whether a direct

25 command contact is the criterion to be applied is unclear to me at this

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1 very moment. I heard your submission in that respect.

2 Let me ask you, Mr. Stojic. I take it that you were aware of

3 Mr. Olujic also defending Mr. Rajic who is charged with the events,

4 especially in the Vares Municipality for which you are charged as well.

5 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I insist on

6 being defended by Mr. Zeljko Olujic. He was my choice, and I will be as

7 emphatic on keeping him as my counsel as I can.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojic, I do understand that for this very moment

9 where there is nothing more asked from you to enter a plea, a plea

10 which -- I don't know what it will be, but it can always be -- if it will

11 be a not guilty plea, it can always be changed. Of course, the other way

12 around would be more difficult. You can't plead guilty now and then plead

13 not guilty tomorrow. I ask you to keep that clearly in mind. And when

14 you say you insist on being defended by Mr. Olujic, I have to inform you

15 that Defence counsel are bound by the regulations established by this

16 Tribunal, and that it depends on those regulations whether your wish, if I

17 may interpret it that way, finally can become true. But I do understand

18 that you're fully aware of the present situation of Defence counsel

19 defending two accused involved in charges regarding the same events, but

20 from a very different position.

21 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] I can only repeat that I

22 insist on being defended by Mr. Zeljko Olujic. I have discussed with him

23 over the last four or five days, and we touched upon this subject as well.

24 And still, I insist on having him as my Defence counsel.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that it's your specific wish to

1 be defended by Mr. Olujic.

2 Then for the -- Mr. Prlic, you are aware that Mr. Par has defended

3 Mr. Martinovic before this Tribunal?

4 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I am

5 informed about that. I have discussed this with my counsel, Mr. Par. He

6 said that the matter will be resolved following due procedure with the

7 competent authorities of this Tribunal, primarily the OTP, and I believe

8 any conflict of interest will be avoided.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 Then Mr. Praljak, you are aware that your Defence counsel,

11 Mr. Krsnik, has previously presented Mr. Naletelic in this Tribunal?

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I am aware of the fact,

13 Your Honour. And if there is no obstacle in the Rules of this Tribunal, I

14 have already testified before esteemed Mr. Scott here, and I wish to say

15 that if there is no obstacle in the Rules, then I would like to keep

16 Mr. Krsnik as my Defence counsel.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From the fact that I did not ask any specific

18 questions, you could conclude that at this moment no specific

19 circumstances came into my mind that might indicate that there could be a

20 conflict of interest.

21 Then finally, I have Mr. Par. Mr. Krsnik, if you would like to

22 make observations in this respect. I've no specific questions. Please do

23 so.

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I should say just a

25 few words. Before I got involved in the Defence of Mr. Prlic, I had

1 discussions with Vinko Martinovic, my client, and received his repeated

2 consent to my engagement as Defence counsel for Mr. Prlic.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no particular

4 comment considering that Mr. Scott and I have spent in this courtroom

5 almost three years. I don't want to take any more of your time. I have

6 no particular comments, and I believe there is no conflict of interest.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Coric, a similar question in respect

9 of you. You are aware that your Defence counsel, Mr. Jonjic, defends at

10 this moment Mr. Ljubicic before this Tribunal. Mr. Ljubicic, who is

11 charged with crimes that allegedly were committed in the same period, but

12 not in the villages and municipalities, but I could not just by reading

13 the indictment exclude any relevant overlap in, for example, command

14 structures. You are aware of the fact that Mr. Jonjic represents

15 Mr. Ljubicic?

16 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm aware that

17 Mr. Jonjic is defending Mr. Ljubicic. We believe there is no conflict of

18 interest. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jonjic, is there any submission you'd like to

20 make here? I have no specific questions, apart from the observations I

21 just made.

22 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe it is useful

23 just to mention that Mr. Ljubicic was informed in due time of the

24 possibility that I would appear as lead counsel for Mr. Coric, and he gave

25 his full consent. And in few of the fact that you emphasised, namely,

1 that events for Mr. Ljubicic is charged are not covered by this

2 indictment, we believe there is no conflict of interest. However, it is

3 up to the Registry -- or the Tribunal, rather.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jonjic. I just want to make

5 quite clear to both you, counsel, and accused that from the mere fact that

6 we will now continue, that you could not conclude that there's a final

7 determination by the Chamber or by me as a Pre-Trial Judge that

8 conflicting interest that would prevent you from acting on behalf of one

9 of these accused are absent. It is a question which, specifically in

10 respect of counsel and accused I just addressed, is still open. There's

11 no final determination on that.

12 Then may I ask each of you whether you have read and discussed the

13 indictment brought against you with counsel. Mr. Prlic, did you?

14 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have. I

15 understand why I am charged by the indictment, although I did not

16 understand the underlying charges. If it is necessary to say it in so

17 many words for the record, I am saying now that I have received and

18 understood the indictment.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And same question for you, Mr. Stojic, whether

20 you received and you have read and discussed with counsel -- these are

21 three questions, whether you received it, whether you read it, and whether

22 you discussed it, the indictment?

23 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] I have received the

24 indictment. I have read it and discussed it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

1 Mr. Praljak, same question for you, or same three questions for

2 you.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I have received the

4 indictment, Your Honour. I have discussed the indictment with my Defence

5 counsel. And on a logical level, I understood the indictment.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also read it? Yes.

7 When I ask you whether you read it, it is presumed that you

8 received the indictment in your own language. If that's not the case,

9 please inform me.

10 Then, Mr. Petkovic, for you also the three questions, whether you

11 received it, whether you read it, and whether you discussed it with

12 counsel.

13 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have

14 received the indictment. I've read the indictment. I have received a

15 copy in my own language in as far as it could be in my own language, and I

16 have discussed the indictment with my Defence counsel. I understand what

17 it says.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petkovic.

19 Mr. Coric, same three questions for you.

20 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've received the

21 indictment. I've read the indictment. And I've discussed the indictment

22 with my Defence counsel. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Coric. And finally, Mr. Pusic.

24 You're always the last, but same three questions for you.

25 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I

1 have understood the indictment. I've received the indictment. And I have

2 discussed the indictment with my Defence counsel. There are a lot of

3 things I didn't quite understand in view of the fact that I was involved

4 in humanitarian issues during the war. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the lack of understanding was not caused by

6 the language of the indictment, but rather on that you could not

7 understand how you could be charged as you were charged?

8 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] I understood the language of

9 the indictment, but there was still quite a number of things of which I

10 stand indicted that I failed to understand.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do you fail to understand what you're

12 charged with, or do you fail to understand why someone could decide that

13 it would be fair to charge you with these counts or these facts?

14 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] As I was involved in

15 humanitarian work, there are quite a number of things that I hear now for

16 the first time. I was never physically present there. That is why I was

17 surprised to find myself indicted of these things.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I better understand what your

19 nonunderstanding actually means. If you would prefer to remain seated,

20 then I will not feel in whatever way offended by it. So if that would be

21 more comfortable for you, please remain seated if -- as you wish.

22 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You have all read the indictments; and unless one of

24 the counsel would disagree that he discussed it with his accused, his or

25 her accused, I take it that the indictments were discussed with them.

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1 There's, however, one issue which is not entirely clear to me. Did you

2 receive, and I'm now addressing counsel, did you receive any of the

3 annexes to the indictment?

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Jadranko Prlic Defence has

5 received all the annexes and attachments to the indictment; some of them

6 today.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that true for -- could we do another way.

8 If one -- if counsel did not receive the annexes, I would like to hear.

9 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] No need for me to speak then,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 Then a question for the accused: Did you read also the annexes to

13 the indictment, and were you able to discuss them with counsel? If any of

14 you had no opportunity to read or discuss it, I'd like to know. Perhaps

15 first Mr. Prlic, if you...

16 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't

17 understand what "annex" means. Is this to do with technical issues in

18 relation to the law? In that case, yes, I have received those.

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, it has got nothing with the law. As a matter of

20 fact, attached to the indictment, one single indictment against all of

21 you, in annexes the identity of the victims, whether killed or wounded or

22 sexually abused, is given in relation to the locations where the crimes

23 allegedly had occurred. And further details are given in respect of

24 sniping incidents in Mostar.

25 I see some confusion. Mr. Par.

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said before that we have

2 received all these annexes, without even knowing that there were any such

3 documents to be attached to the indictment. When I said that we had

4 everything, what I had in mind were the usual technical attachments to an

5 indictment, the kind that we usually have.

6 What you're telling us now, I can only say that our Defence has

7 not received any such documents. I don't know about the other Defence

8 teams, but probably my colleagues would have informed me of receiving any

9 such documents.

10 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honour, first of

11 all, when my client received the indictment, there were no attachments, no

12 annexes, just the text of the indictment itself in both Croatian and

13 English. Having arrived in The Hague, more specifically today at 1400

14 hours, we received some of the documents, documents of procedural nature.

15 The arrest order and so on and so forth, I do not want to go now into

16 enumerating all the documents that I've looked at half an hour ago. But

17 what you have just told us about, Your Honour, we have so far not received

18 any of those. I'm not sure about the other Defence teams.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine that you didn't receive it, although it

20 appears from the indictment itself that there should be annexes. For

21 example, if I draw your attention to paragraph 106, you'll see that

22 reference is made to "annex." I also can understand why you didn't

23 receive it, because they are still under seal and confidential. I did,

24 however, understand, Mr. Scott, that the Prosecution would not insist on

25 keeping them under seal, but that they should remain confidential.

1 MR. SCOTT: May it please Court, Your Honour, you're absolutely

2 correct. As you just indicated, the indictment on its face indicates that

3 there are annexes, confidential annexes, attached as part of the

4 indictment. The situation that we confronted was that there was certain

5 information that was very sensitive, identifies particular victims and

6 potential witnesses by name. And until such time as the accused could be

7 brought before the custody of the Tribunal and such protective measures

8 ordered by this Chamber, we were not in a position to be able to make that

9 information available to the accused.

10 This was all previously addressed with Judge Antonetti, and as you

11 pointed out just now, Your Honour, the annexes themselves remained sealed.

12 Further, as Your Honour just correctly stated, the Prosecution has no

13 interest whatsoever in keeping that information from the accused. In

14 fact, it's prepared to provide that information today, provided that

15 protective measures are entered and the Prosecution would be satisfied if

16 Your Honour could make oral rulings or orders to make it very clear to the

17 accused that the annexes will be provided in the strictest of confidence,

18 not to be disclosed for any purpose at all to any other person other than

19 the immediate Defence teams, unless and until -- until other Court orders

20 might be entered.

21 If Your Honour is prepared to do that, and we could proceed that

22 way if you wish, we're in the Chamber's hands, we'd be happy to do so.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 Yes, please, Mr. Par.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before we continue, I would

1 like to have an explanation, please. These annexes, what exactly do they

2 mean? Are they part of the indictment, an integral? Are they an integral

3 part of the indictment or something outside of the indictment itself? If

4 those annexes are part of the indictment, if they are considered part of

5 the indictment, in that case I'm afraid I must say that our clients have

6 not had a proper chance to look at the indictment. I hope the Chamber can

7 assist me with this.

8 Just another thing briefly. In the indictment itself, there's a

9 reference to a number of annexes. This was supposed to be some kind of

10 warning to the Defence that there were more documents to be had. We do

11 not believe that the Defence should be put in a position to beg the

12 Prosecutor for more documents concerning the indictment itself. The fact

13 that there were annexes means nothing to us before we've had a chance to

14 look at those and be in possession of those documents. In relation to the

15 proposals made by Mr. Scott, I have to say that as an attorney-at-law I

16 simply do not understand whether these annexes are part of the indictment

17 or not.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before I give an opportunity for another

19 counsel to address the matter, perhaps I should give you a little bit more

20 information. The lifting of the confidentiality by Judge Antonetti did

21 not include the annexes. Let me first of all explain to you exactly what

22 these annexes are. These annex -- it's one annex, several parts. In this

23 annex, details are given about the identity of persons killed, wounded, or

24 sexually abused related to the various locations. So you'll find there,

25 in this location, the two people killed, names are X, Y. And then in the

1 annex also some additional details are given in respect of the sniping

2 incidents that took place in Mostar. That means, name of the person

3 involved and where it happened and what kind of weapon was used.

4 I see that you're standing, Mr. Pusic. Is there any specific

5 reason, or is it just to overcome some discomfort being seated.

6 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, I have

7 some health problems. As you can see, I'm on crutches. I can't sit down,

8 and I can't stand up.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If you're not able to follow these proceedings being

10 present here, I'd like to hear either from you or from counsel.

11 MR. SKOBIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may explain

12 briefly, my client had undergone a very complicated spine surgery last

13 week. At his own risk, he left the hospital despite being cautioned by

14 the doctors not to leave. He responded to your call to receive the

15 indictment. And in view of the medical recommendations he received, he

16 shall be able to follow the proceedings here, be seated for perhaps 15 or

17 20 minutes at a time. But after, that he has to stand up to relax a bit

18 because that's what his spine -- the condition of his spine requires.

19 Therefore, I would ask your permission for my client to stand up

20 occasionally from time to time for that reason.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pusic, just take the position which is more

22 comfortable to you, although I do understand that all positions are

23 uncomfortable. But take the best one. And whenever you feel that you'll

24 not be able to follow these proceedings here because of your medical

25 condition, please inform me.

1 Then, I'll return to where we were, and that's the annexes. I

2 said that a piece of information is also contained in this annex relating

3 to details of specific sniping incidents in Mostar, sniping incidents

4 which you find - let me just check - I think in -- well, it's somewhere in

5 24, 25, or 26 of the indictment, that specifically the sniping incidents

6 are mentioned. And you'll find further details about these incidents. Of

7 course, I've given it some thought prior to this hearing whether we could

8 proceed. And apart from that, I'd like to hear from you whether, without

9 having seen this, or if you'd prefer to have a short break to read it, if

10 I would have given an order that the seal is lifted.

11 I came to the conclusion that it very much depends on what the

12 accused intend to plea. Since if you enter a plea of not guilty because

13 you say that the -- you are no member of the joint criminal enterprise,

14 the joint criminal enterprise had not these purposes, did not even exist,

15 people were not killed, then, of course it might not be of major

16 importance to know exactly whether Mr. X or Mrs. Y or Child Z was not

17 killed, if you deny the killing at all or if you deny responsibility for

18 the joint criminal enterprise or another form of participation in that

19 killing. So therefore, the absence of knowledge, of course, gains great

20 importance if there's any intention to enter a guilty plea. It might have

21 less importance if there is an intention to plead not guilty.

22 On the other hand, I'm willing, having heard the observation of

23 the Prosecution, I'm willing to just take a break for 10 minutes, after

24 having given an oral ruling, after you have been provided -- I don't know,

25 in all languages, Mr. Scott?

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1 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. They can be provided in both

2 English and in Croatian.

3 JUDGE ORIE: B/C/S. So I'd now like to hear from you what you'd

4 like to do, to say no, with the lack of knowledge of these annexes, we

5 could not proceed today. Then fine, we'll stop. We'll give a ruling on

6 whether the annexes will be provided to you, or whether you say we would

7 like to proceed but not until we have had an opportunity for 10 minutes at

8 least to get an impression of what's in those annexes, in that annex, or

9 that you say since our clients intend to enter a plea of not guilty, it's

10 of no major importance anyhow to know what details there are on events

11 that we deny to have taken place at all.

12 Could I please hear first from Mr. Par or Mr. Salahovic. Or if

13 you want to confer first.

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we cannot take this

15 decision without first conferring with our client. Therefore, my proposal

16 is let us have a short break to consult our clients and the other Defence

17 teams to look at the documents, and then come back to the courtroom to

18 give you our final position. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this a position shared by all Defence

20 counsel? I see nodding, apart from you, Mr. Olujic.

21 MR. OLUJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour.

22 I agree as well. By way of introduction, I wanted to say that I do not

23 oppose the idea of a break now. But what seems to be beyond doubt on the

24 part of the Prosecution, and thank you too, Your Honour, for the

25 clarification you have provided. It has not been challenged that these

1 annexes had a part of the indictment, an integral part of the indictment,

2 and therefore I would like to have 10 minutes to consult with my client.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, my client is

4 seeking permission to address you, Mr. Praljak.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Praljak.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have had

7 discussion among ourselves. I believe our plea will be the same for

8 everyone: Not guilty. If I understand Mr. Scott correctly, there's a

9 possibility to inspect these annexes. And then the Prosecution opposes

10 the request for provisional release. If that is indeed the case, even

11 before we've had a look at the documents, we would like to have at least

12 10 or 15 minutes, a break, to confer with each other and to see what we do

13 next. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, provisional release is not an issue that has

15 been raised until now. So what I suggest I didn't very moment, but I'm

16 also looking at security, whether it would be possible that counsel confer

17 briefly with their clients in the courtroom during a short break. I would

18 say 5 to 10 minutes would be enough to just read the annexes, or at least

19 get a first impression, and then confer with your clients.

20 May I ask... But before having a break, of course, I should give

21 an oral order. The oral order I give at this moment is that the annex to

22 the indictment will be unsealed, but remains confidential. That means

23 that Defence counsel and accused are not allowed to communicate with

24 anyone outside your Defence team - I don't know whether you have already

25 given a list of the members of your Defence team to the Registry. If not,

1 then it means that it's only you, that means seven counsel and six

2 accused, who have access to this document that will be provided to you

3 after this order by the Prosecution.

4 We'll then have a short break of -- until a quarter past 3.00 and

5 see how we will proceed. We'll have a break for 10 minutes.

6 --- Break taken at 3.05 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 3.20 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the annex has been disclosed to

9 Defence counsel and accused. Is there a unanimous answer on the question

10 whether we could proceed today or whether you need more time to prepare

11 with the accused what plea to enter?

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can proceed. I think

13 that's a unanimous position on the part of all the Defence teams.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Par.

15 I always take it if one of the counsel speak on behalf of all of

16 them, I expect a firm protest whenever you say something you would not

17 agree with.

18 Then we'll proceed, but not after having clarified the following

19 issue also to the accused: Whenever I speak during this hearing about an

20 incident or a crime or a victim, you should always understand that as the

21 crime allegedly committed, or the incident that allegedly took place, or

22 an alleged victim, because at the very start of these proceedings, nothing

23 has yet been established, and you are presumed innocent until proven

24 guilty. Although it is not very practical to add to every word I say

25 "alleged" or "allegedly," that would keep us for another hour in this

1 courtroom. So therefore -- but that's the way you should understand my

2 words when I'm referring to crimes or victims or incidents or whatever.

3 Then I am supposed to read the indictment to you. Since you all

4 know now that the indictment contains 60 pages, I'd like to know whether

5 you want me to read it in its entirety or whether I should give a summary.

6 At the end of the summary, I'll read each of the counts to you. And if

7 you'd like to enter a plea today, you can plead guilty or not guilty to

8 that count. So there are two questions. First, whether the indictment

9 should be read in its entirety; and the second question is whether the

10 accused, and that could be different for any of them, want to enter a plea

11 today.

12 Could I hear, to start with, with one answer. Mr. Par.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] The position of our Defence team is that

14 there is no need to read the entire indictment. We would like to have the

15 summary read as briefly as possible in order to expedite today's

16 proceedings. And the other question was -- I forget. We are prepared to

17 enter a plea today, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. I'll try to keep the summary, then,

19 short. But you should also understand that this is not a kind of a

20 private meeting between two parties and the Judge, but this is a public

21 hearing in which it should be clear not only for those participating in

22 this hearing, but also for those attending this hearing what it is all

23 about.

24 The indictment brought against you consists of seven parts. In

25 the first part, the identity is -- of all of the accused is given, and it

1 is described what positions you have held during the periods of the

2 indictment. In the second part of the indictment, a joint criminal

3 enterprise is described and the way in which you, the accused, allegedly

4 took part in that joint criminal enterprise. In part 3 of the indictment,

5 an overall view is taken on the general, political, and military context

6 in which the crimes were committed and describes in broader terms how the

7 joint criminal enterprise operated in it and what kind of activity you

8 have developed in this political and military context.

9 Part 4 of the indictment describes in more detail what happened in

10 more than ten locations, such as municipalities or detention centres or

11 military prisons, and mentions exactly what crimes specifically were

12 committed in each of these locations.

13 Then in part 5, the indictment confronts you with the basis of

14 your criminal responsibility in a variety of alternatives, under

15 Article 7(1) of the Statute of this Tribunal. And although participation

16 in a joint criminal enterprise may be given much attention here, including

17 for the possibility that you aided and abetted in the joint criminal

18 enterprise, apart from having participated in it, this does not exclude in

19 the view of the Office of the Prosecution your responsibility for

20 planning, instigating, ordering or committing, or aiding and abetting in

21 the planning, preparation, or execution of these specific crimes. Each of

22 you is, therefore, also charged as a coperpetrator and/or an indirect

23 perpetrator of these crimes apart from your responsibility as a

24 participant in the joint criminal enterprise.

25 Further, your responsibility is described in terms of your

1 participation or involvement in a system of ill-treatment. And reference

2 in this respect is specifically made to a network of concentration camps

3 and detention facilities, and the systematic deportation of Bosnian

4 Muslims and various forms of physical and sexual abuse which took place in

5 that system. And in this respect, I'd like to ask a short question to

6 you, Mr. Scott: Is this system of ill-treatment a separate and additional

7 form of responsibility under Article 7(1), or is it just an explanation of

8 one of the other forms?

9 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court, the position of the Office of

10 the Prosecutor, Your Honour, is that this might be what's sometimes called

11 the second variation of a joint criminal enterprise. There are sometimes,

12 and I hate to use colloquialisms on this, but we sometimes talk in joint

13 criminal enterprise one, two, and three. And there is a second version

14 involving systems of ill-treatment. And the Prosecution views this as a

15 distinct, related but distinct, theory of responsibility.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's how I understood it, but I just wanted to

17 be sure that this was a correct way of understanding the indictment.

18 Finally, the indictment holds you responsible in your capacity as

19 a superior or as a commander, exercising de jure or de facto and/or de

20 facto control as a superior official or an officer. This charge includes

21 that you failed to do whatever you could have done to prevent the crimes

22 to be committed by those under your supervision or under your command, and

23 that you failed to punish, remove, or discipline those who committed those

24 crimes.

25 I now move to the sixth part of the indictment. In the sixth part

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1 of the indictment, 26 counts are listed mentioning the crimes you are

2 charged with. In this part of the indictment, reference is made to the

3 applicable legal provisions and also to the paragraphs in the indictment

4 where you find the facts underlying these description legal terms of the

5 crimes.

6 Then in the seventh part of the indictment you find additional

7 allegations of the indictment, setting out some general elements relevant

8 in relation to some or sometimes all of the crimes charged, such the

9 characteristics of the armed conflict or of the widespread and systematic

10 attack in which the crimes allegedly were committed, special intent in

11 respect of some crimes, or a description of the parties and individuals

12 involved in view of their status under treaty law.

13 I don't have to draw your attention again to the confidential, as

14 it reads in my note, but not -- well, still confidential, but not under

15 seal any more, the annex to the indictment in which details are given

16 about the identity of persons killed, wounded, sexually abused in the

17 various locations and under various circumstances, and about -- details

18 about sniping incidents against civilians in Mostar.

19 This is a general overview. I will summarise or quote some parts

20 of the indictment which seem to be of even greater importance than others.

21 And I'll do that in somewhat more detail. First of all, I'll give you the

22 list of crimes in, as I said, part 6 of the indictment which clarifies

23 what crimes you're charged with. That is persecutions on political,

24 racial, and religious grounds as a crime against humanity; murder as a

25 crime against humanity; willful killing as a grave breach of the Geneva

1 Conventions; rape as a crime against humanity; inhuman treatment through

2 sexual assault, also a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions; deportation

3 as a crime against humanity; unlawful deportation of a civilian as a grave

4 breach of the Geneva Conventions; inhumane acts by forcible transfer, a

5 crime against humanity; unlawful transfer of a civilian, a grave breach of

6 the Geneva Conventions; imprisonment as a crime against humanity; unlawful

7 confinement of a civilian as a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;

8 inhumane acts through the conditions of confinement, also a crime against

9 humanity; inhuman treatment through the conditions of confinement as a

10 grave breach of the Geneva Conventions; cruel treatment also related to

11 conditions of confinement as a violation of the laws and customs of war;

12 inhumane acts as a crime against humanity; inhuman treatment as a grave

13 breach of the Geneva Conventions; cruel treatment as a war crime; unlawful

14 labour, a war crime; extensive destruction of property not justified by

15 military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly as a grave

16 breach of the Geneva Conventions; wanton destruction of cities, towns, or

17 villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity as a war

18 crime; destruction or willful damage done to institutions dedicated to

19 religion or education as a war crime; appropriation of property not

20 justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly as

21 a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions; plunder of public or private

22 property as a war crime; unlawful attack on civilians as a violation of

23 the laws and customs of war, that is a war crime; unlawful infliction of

24 terror on civilians, specifically related, as the previous count, to

25 Mostar; and cruel treatment related to the Mostar siege as a war crime.

1 I've got one question in this respect, Mr. Scott: When I read

2 these crimes, under count 25, reference is made to Article 3 under (d) of

3 the Statute of the Tribunal. Could you explain what 3(d) means in terms

4 of unlawful infliction of terror on civilians because under 3(d) I read

5 not -- it says seizure of -- destruction or willful damage done to

6 institutions dedicated to religion, charity, and education, the arts and

7 sciences, historic monuments, and works of art and science. I, without

8 further explanation, I have some difficulties in reconciling the unlawful

9 infliction of terror on civilians with Article 3(d).

10 MR. SCOTT: I think -- Your Honour, I think in looking at that it,

11 might have been more accurate to simply refer to Article 3 for purposes of

12 unlawful infliction of terror because unlawful infliction of terror under

13 the violations of the laws or customs of war I think encompasses, in fact,

14 one, quite arguably, all subcategories (a) through (e). That would be my

15 initial answer, Your Honour, to that. I would have to probably to give a

16 full answer, to fairly -- to be completely transparent, Your Honour, I

17 would need to consult probably and look at it closer and talk with my

18 colleagues.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you find an opportunity to do so. For

20 the time being, if this would confuse you, I would like to hear from you,

21 but it might be that by mistake the Prosecution included a letter (d)

22 where it just wanted to refer to Article 3 of the Statute. Article 3,

23 which in general terms, have been used in earlier indictments before this

24 Tribunal in relation to the unlawful infliction of terror on civilians.

25 Having gone through the crimes for which you are held responsible,

1 I would further give some details in respect of the joint criminal

2 enterprise on which the indictment is focussing. It's not excluding other

3 bases for your responsibility, but it's very much focussing on the joint

4 criminal enterprise. I'd like to read to you what is the aim of this

5 joint criminal enterprise as it is given in paragraph 15 of the

6 indictment. It says that the aim was to politically and militarily

7 subjugate, permanently remove, and ethnically cleanse Bosnian Muslims and

8 other non-Croats who lived in areas on the territory of the Republic of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina which were claimed to be part of the Croatian

10 community, and later Republic, of Herceg-Bosna, and to join these areas as

11 parts of a Greater Croatia, whether in the short term or over time, and

12 whether as part of the Republic of Croatia or in close association with

13 it.

14 By force, fear, or threat of force, persecution, imprisonment, and

15 detention, forcible transfer and deportation, appropriation and

16 destruction of property and other means which constituted or involved the

17 commission of crimes which are punishable under Articles 2, 3, and 5 of

18 the Tribunal Statute. The territorial ambition of the joint criminal

19 enterprise was to establish a Croatian territory with the borders of the

20 Croatian Banovina, a territorial entity that existed from 1939 to 1941.

21 It was part of the joint criminal enterprise to engineer the political and

22 ethnic map of these areas so it would be Croat dominated both politically

23 and demographically. This is how the purpose or the aim of the joint

24 criminal enterprise is described in the Tribunal.

25 It's also described that the joint criminal enterprise did exist

1 of more persons than just you. Apart from you, the indictment mentions by

2 name, apart from many others who are not mentioned by name, Franjo

3 Tudjman, Gojko Susak, Janko Bobetko, and Mate Boban as participants in

4 this joint criminal enterprise, all of those persons mentioned by name

5 have deceased.

6 In paragraph 17 of the indictment, it is described by what means

7 you allegedly participated as leaders in this joint criminal enterprise.

8 Without reading it all, I'll give important parts to you. By

9 establishing, organising, directing, funding, facilitating, supporting,

10 maintaining, and/or operating Herceg-Bosna/HVO governmental and political

11 structures and processes (or various elements thereof); by establishing,

12 organising, commanding, ordering, directing, funding, facilitating,

13 participating in, supporting, maintaining, and/or operating the

14 Herceg-Bosna/HVO military, police, intelligence, and other forces; by

15 initiating, promoting, planning, preparing, participating in, supporting,

16 and/or encouraging the development, formulation, dissemination, and/or

17 implementation of Herceg-Bosna/HVO political, governmental, and/or

18 military policies, programmes, plans, decrees, decisions, regulations,

19 strategy or tactics which were used as bases or vehicles for various

20 actions against or to the disadvantage of Bosnian Muslims; by instigating,

21 supporting, encouraging, facilitating, and/or participating in the

22 dissemination of information and propaganda to Bosnian Croats, it was

23 intended to advance the joint criminal enterprise.

24 It's alleged that you did it by planning, instigating, commanding,

25 directing, participating in, facilitating or supporting the HVO takeover

1 of various municipal governments and efforts to "Croatise" the Bosnian

2 Muslim and other non-Croat population in areas which the Herceg-Bosna/HVO

3 leaders claimed were part of Herceg-Bosna; by encouraging, controlling,

4 funding, facilitating, assisting, and/or participating in the production,

5 acquisition, or distribution of military equipment, arms, ammunition,

6 funds, logistical support, and other means which were used to advance the

7 joint criminal enterprise; by requesting, obtaining, arranging,

8 facilitating, and/or coordinating the participation and assistance of

9 elements of the Republic of Croatia government, armed forces, police, and

10 intelligence services; by establishing, organising, directing, funding,

11 facilitating, supporting, participating in, maintaining, and/or operating

12 a system of Herceg-Bosna/HVO prisons, concentration camps, and other

13 detention facilities; by establishing, organising, directing, funding,

14 facilitating, supporting, participating in, maintaining, and/or operating

15 a system for the deportation or forcible transfer of Bosnian Muslims to

16 other countries or to parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina which were not

17 claimed or controlled by Herceg-Bosna as part of and in furtherance of the

18 joint criminal enterprise;

19 by ordering, instigating, promoting, encouraging, facilitating,

20 and/or implementing the systematic use by Herceg-Bosna/HVO forces of

21 Bosnian Muslim detainees for unlawful forced labour; by promoting,

22 instigating, encouraging, condoning the commission of crimes against

23 Bosnian Muslims by failing to report and/or investigate crimes and/or by

24 failing to punish or discipline subordinates and others responsible.

25 And finally, by engaging in, encouraging, facilitating, or

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1 supporting efforts to deny, conceal, and/or minimise crimes committed by

2 the Herceg-Bosna/HVO authorities and forces against Bosnian Muslims or

3 other non-Croats.

4 In paragraph 39 of the indictment, it is set out in what kind of

5 criminal activities you were engaged in the view of the Prosecutor as a

6 part of and in the course of the actions described otherwise in the

7 indictment, including ethnic cleansing. And the Prosecutor confronts you

8 with the following activities: With the instigation and fomentation of

9 political, ethnic or religious strife, division and hatred: By speeches,

10 propaganda, and false information, the Herceg-Bosna/HVO authorities

11 created, instigated, and supported a charged anti-Muslim atmosphere,

12 promoted ethnic division, and fostered religious mistrust; by the use of

13 force, intimidation, and terror: Herceg-Bosna/HVO authorities and

14 military and police units used force and the threat of force to dominate,

15 suppress, and persecute Bosnian Muslims. In the course of mass arrests

16 and evictions, Bosnian Muslims were killed, severely injured, sexually

17 assaulted, robbed of their property, and otherwise abused.

18 Under (c), it says that you engaged in appropriation and

19 destruction of property, that Bosnian Muslims were to abandon their homes,

20 and that money, cars, and personal property were often taken or looted.

21 Paragraph 39 further mentions detention and imprisonment, that a

22 system of ill-treatment was established, supported, and operated involving

23 a network of prisons, concentration camps, and other detention facilities;

24 that not only men, but also women, children, and elderly were arrested and

25 detained and imprisoned; that they were kept, at least many of them, in

1 horrible conditions and deprived of basic human necessities; and that they

2 suffered inhuman treatment and physical and psychological abuse.

3 Paragraph 39 further mentions the forcible transfer and

4 deportation, that the system of ill-treatment was established, supported,

5 and operated to deport Bosnian Muslims to other countries or transfer them

6 to parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina not claimed or controlled by

7 Herceg-Bosna. Finally, paragraph 39 mentions forced labour, that many

8 Bosnian Muslims were held by the HVO, and that they were forced to engage

9 in physical labour, including digging trenches and retrieving bodies,

10 often in combat and dangerous conditions, which resulted in many Bosnian

11 Muslims, detainees, being killed or severely wounded. Some of them were

12 used as human shields.

13 These are central parts of these indictments. I will now briefly

14 indicate to you what locations are specifically referred to in the

15 indictment, giving further details of what happened in these locations;

16 that is Prozor Municipality, Gornji Vakuf Municipality, Sovici and

17 Doljani, Jablanica, Mostar Municipality, the Heliodrom camp, the Vojno

18 camp, the Ljubuski Municipality and Detention Centre, Stolac Municipality,

19 Capilinja Municipality, Dretelj district military prison, Gabela district

20 military prison, and Vares Municipality.

21 At the end of each section on each of these municipalities, it's

22 always mentioned that all six of you are responsible for the crimes that

23 are then described in legal terms. And you'll find in those paragraphs

24 also a reference to the listing in part 6 indicating what crimes were

25 committed in that localities, although not every and each type of crime

1 was, according to the indictment, committed in each of these

2 municipalities. There are, however, two exceptions to the fact that

3 you're held responsible, all six of you, for the crimes committed in all

4 of these municipalities. Mr. Pusic, you are not charged with events that

5 allegedly took place in Prozor Municipality in October 1992; that is, on

6 the 23rd of October when the Herceg-Bosna/HVO forces attacked Bosnian

7 Muslims in Prozor town, which attack was followed by plunder, arson, and

8 destruction of Bosnian Muslim home and other properties, rounding up

9 Bosnian Muslims, and detaining them. You are therefore also not charged

10 with what happened on the 24th of October, as the indictment says, and

11 that is an attack on Paljike, 1 kilometre south of Prozor town, which

12 attack included the killing of two civilians and the detention of Bosnian

13 Muslims. But the charges against you include the events that happened in

14 1993 as described in the indictment.

15 The second exception of you being held responsible by the

16 Prosecutor, all six for the events in all the locations, is that you,

17 Mr. Pusic, you are not charged with what happened in Gornji Vakuf in

18 January 1993, and therefore you'll see that your name does not appear in

19 paragraph 72 of the indictment where only five names are mentioned as

20 being responsible for what happened in Gornji Vakuf in January 1993.

21 This is a general overview and a summary of the indictment. Of

22 course, it's not detailed in legal terms. It's not detailed in factual

23 terms. But it is a summary. If either the Defence or the Prosecution or

24 any of the accused finds that my summary is incorrect or should be

25 supplemented, I'd like to hear it now so that we could refer to the

1 specific part of the indictment you find is not properly presented in my

2 summary.

3 Is there any need for correction?

4 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, on behalf of the Prosecution, there's no

5 need for any addition.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that the Defence is remaining silent, and

7 I see no signs of any objection from the accused. So I take it that I do

8 not need to correct or supplement my summary.

9 Since you indicated that all six accused wanted to enter a plea

10 today and not at a later stage, I'd first, after having given the summary,

11 again ask a question to all accused, although I'm aware that some of you

12 have already answered that question.

13 Mr. Prlic, do you understand the indictment brought against you?

14 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour. I

15 understand the indictment.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojic, same question for you. Do you understand

17 the indictment?

18 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour. I

19 understand the indictment fully.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Praljak, may I ask you the same question.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully

22 understood the indictment in the language that I understand.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petkovic.

24 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I

25 understand the indictment.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Coric.

2 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I understand

3 the indictment.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then finally for you, Mr. Pusic. And I add to it

5 that you are not held responsible for the events in Prozor in October 1992

6 and that you're not charged at all with the events in January 1993 in

7 Gornji Vakuf. Did you understand, including this specific element, the

8 indictment brought against you?

9 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] I understand the indictment,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Then I'd invite you to enter a plea on each of the counts. I will

13 read them to you count by count, and then ask whether you plead guilty or

14 not guilty on that specific count.

15 Count 1, persecutions on political, racial, and religious grounds,

16 a crime against humanity, punishable under Statute Articles 5(h), 7(1),

17 and 7(3). Mr. Prlic, how do you plead to count 1?

18 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to plead

19 to all counts of the indictment. I don't think it is necessary to

20 enumerate all of them, at least as far as I'm concerned.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will read them all out. But if all accused

22 intend to plead in the same way to all counts, I could read them one by

23 one, and then ask you at the end whether you -- what your plea is on each

24 of the 26 counts brought against you. But then I need some confirmation

25 that you'll have a similar plea on each count because otherwise it would

1 not function.

2 May I ask it in a different way. If any one of you wants to give

3 different pleas, to enter different pleas on the various counts, I'd like

4 to be informed.

5 Since I do not receive any reaction, I take it that you want to

6 plead -- to enter the same plea on each count. I'll then read them one by

7 one.

8 Count 1, I'll repeat it. Persecutions on political, racial, and

9 religious grounds, a crime against humanity, punishable under Statute

10 Articles 5(h), 7(1), and 7(3).

11 Count 2, murder, a crime against humanity, punishable under

12 Statute Articles 5(a), 7(1), and 7(3).

13 Count 3, willful killing, a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions

14 of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(a), 7(1), and 7(3).

15 Count 4, rape, a crime against humanity, punishable under Statute

16 Articles 5(g), 7(1), and 7(3).

17 Count 5, inhuman treatment, (sexual assault), a grave breach of

18 the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(b),

19 7(1), and 7(3).

20 Count 6, deportation, a crime against humanity, punishable under

21 Statute Articles 5(d), 7(1), and 7(3).

22 Count 7, unlawful deportation of a civilian, a grave breach of the

23 Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(g), 7(1),

24 and 7(3).

25 Count 8, inhumane acts (forcible transfer), a crime against

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1 humanity, punishable under Statute Articles 5(i), 7(1), and 7(3).

2 Count 9, unlawful transfer of a civilian, a grave breach of the

3 Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(g), 7(1),

4 and 7(3).

5 Count 10, imprisonment, a crime against humanity, punishable under

6 Statute Articles 5(e), 7(1), and 7(3).

7 Count 11, unlawful confinement of a civilian, a grave breach of

8 the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(g),

9 7(1), and 7(3).

10 Count 12, inhumane acts (conditions of confinement), a crime

11 against humanity, punishable under Statute Articles 5(i), 7(1), and 7(3).

12 Count 13, inhuman treatment (conditions of confinement), a grave

13 breach of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute

14 Articles 2(b), 7(1), and 7(3).

15 Count 14, cruel treatment (conditions of confinement), a violation

16 of the laws and customs of war as recognised by Article 3(1)(a) of the

17 Geneva Conventions, punishable under Statute Articles 3, 7(1), and 7(3).

18 Count 15, inhumane acts, a crime against humanity, punishable

19 under Statute Articles 5(i), 7(1), and 7(3).

20 Count 16, inhuman treatment, a grave breach of the Geneva

21 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(b), 7(1), and

22 7(3).

23 Count 17, cruel treatment, a violation of the laws or customs of

24 war as recognised by Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions, punishable

25 under Statute Article 3, 7(1), and 7(3).

1 Count 18, unlawful labour, a violation of the laws or customs of

2 war, as recognised by Articles 40, 51, and 95 of Geneva Convention IV and

3 Articles 49, 50, and 52 of Geneva Convention III, punishable under Statute

4 Articles 3, 7(1), and 7(3).

5 Count 19, extensive destruction of property not justified by

6 military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly, a grave breach

7 of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(d),

8 7(1), and 7(3).

9 Count 20, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or

10 devastation not justified by military necessity, a violation of the laws

11 or customs of war, punishable under Statute Article 3(b), 7(1), and 7(3).

12 Destruction or willful damage done to institutions dedicated to

13 religion or education as count 21, a violation of the laws or customs of

14 war, punishable under the Statute Articles 3(d), 7(1), and 7(3).

15 Count 22, appropriation of property not justified by military

16 necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly, a grave breach of the

17 Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Articles 2(d), 7(1),

18 and 7(3).

19 Count 23, plunder of public or private property, a violation of

20 the laws or customs of war, punishable under Statute Articles 3(e), 7(1),

21 and 7(3).

22 Count 24, unlawful attack on civilians (Mostar), a violation of

23 the laws or customs of war as recognised under customary law, and

24 Article 51 of Additional Protocol I and Article 13 of Additional Protocol

25 II to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute Article 3,

1 7(1), and 7(3).

2 Coming to count 25, Mr. Scott, could you already clarify the

3 reference to Article 3(d).

4 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour has a fine eye, and I

5 think it would be correct to say that the (d) is an error, the sub (d),

6 and it should simply read "Articles 3, 7(1), and 7(3)."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarification. I take it this

8 will get a follow up in writing, Mr. Scott.

9 Count 25, unlawful infliction of terror on civilians (Mostar), a

10 violation of the laws or customs of war as recognised under customary law,

11 and Article 51 of Additional Protocol I and Article 13 of Additional

12 Protocol II to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Statute

13 Article 3, 7(1), and 7(3).

14 Count 26, cruel treatment (Mostar siege), a violation of the laws

15 or customs of war, as recognised by Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva

16 Conventions and punishable under Statute Articles 3, 7(1), and 7(3).

17 Mr. Prlic, would you please stand. How do you plead to each and

18 every of the 26 counts just read out to you?

19 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I am not

20 guilty, and the plea is the same to all counts. I was not a master of war

21 as I have been made out to be in this indictment.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Prlic, this is the moment where you are invited

23 to enter a plea, not to give further statements. I do understand that you

24 plead not guilty on all 26 counts. Is that correct?

25 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to answer briefly in

1 order to avoid answering to every individual count. I merely want to say

2 two or three words. I do not mean to be giving a speech, so if I may be

3 allowed to say two or three words.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's a custom in this courtroom that if you

5 want to address the Court on anything you're not asked for, you ask

6 permission for that. And since you -- I do understand what you say now is

7 a request for adding a few words, I'll consider it and I'll let you know

8 whether I'll give an opportunity to you to address the Court.

9 Then please be seated.

10 Mr. Stojic, how do you plead to each and every count of the -- of

11 the 26 counts I just read to you?

12 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] Not guilty.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand the not guilty plea to be valid for

14 all 26 counts?

15 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not guilty on

16 any of the counts.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Stojic.

18 Mr. Praljak, I invite to you enter a plea on each and every of the

19 26 counts I just read to you. Do you plead guilty or not guilty?

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Not guilty on any of the 26

21 counts of this indictment.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Praljak.

23 Mr. Petkovic, do you plead guilty or not guilty on each and every

24 of the 26 counts just read to you?

25 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not guilty on

1 any of the counts.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petkovic.

3 Mr. Coric, may I invite you to enter a plea on each of the 26

4 counts just read to you.

5 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not

6 guilty on any of the counts of the indictment.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pusic, may I invite you to enter a plea on each

8 and every of the counts, the 26 counts, just read to you.

9 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my plea is not

10 guilty.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Pusic.

12 Madam Registrar, it should be put on record that all six accused

13 have entered a plea of not guilty on each of the 26 counts brought against

14 them.

15 Since you have now all arrived in the UN Detention Unit, I'd like

16 to hear from you whether there are any observations to be made in respect

17 of the detention circumstances; whether there are any complaints or is

18 there anything this Court should know about your detention circumstances?

19 I'll put a similar question to you in respect of your health situation,

20 whether the Chamber should be informed about specific aspects of your

21 health or your family circumstances. If there's any need to go into

22 private session, that means that the public will not hear what you say,

23 please inform me because for reasons of privacy, we could especially on

24 these issues go into private session when needed and requested. May I

25 first, in respect of both detention circumstances and in respect of health

1 and family situation, invite you, Mr. Prlic, to say whatever you would

2 like to say. The other issue will be left for a later moment.

3 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] Except for the fact that I do

4 not believe I should be kept in detention, I have no objections to make to

5 the conditions of detention itself.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And from your silence, may I take it that

7 health and family situation doesn't require any specific attention.

8 May I then put the same question to you, Mr. Stojic.

9 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

10 No comments about any health issues or as regards the conditions of my

11 detention.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

13 Mr. Praljak, same question, three aspects to you.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no

15 objections in relation to my family situation, my health, or the

16 conditions of my detention. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 Mr. Petkovic, any submissions to be made in respect of --

19 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no complaints about

20 the conditions of detention, and may they not be changed. I have no other

21 comments.

22 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] [Realtime transcript read in

23 error "Mr. Choric"] Your Honour, I am not exactly thrilled by the fact

24 that I am being held in detention, but as for the conditions of my

25 detention, I have no complaints, and I feel well.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Coric, would you please wait until a question is

2 asked to you, not because I would be offended if you tell me something,

3 but now it appears on the transcript as if Mr. Petkovic was still

4 speaking, because you followed him up without any question being put in

5 between, and then the transcribers who are responsible for the transcripts

6 will just continue to write down the words spoken. And I therefore at

7 this moment, I have to correct for the transcript.

8 Yes, I see that it now says "Mr. Coric," not as usual "the accused

9 Coric" but page 42, line 5, it's Mr. Coric who is speaking.

10 Then Mr. Pusic, the same question to you, detention circumstances,

11 health, and family circumstances.

12 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] No complaints about the

13 conditions of my detention, Your Honour, or my family situation. The only

14 thing I wish to say, Your Honour, if I may be allowed to ask for your

15 permission, I only found out about the indictment while I was bedridden in

16 Ljubljana, in a hospital. As my Defence counsel has already informed you,

17 I voluntarily gave myself up to the Tribunal. And what I would like to

18 ask for is to be medically examined by a doctor at the detention facility

19 so that the relevant medical documents could be prepared. I have already

20 sent some of my medical documents to the Tribunal when -- and I delivered

21 some when I arrived in the prison unit. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you one question. Have you already

23 been seen by a doctor in the Detention Unit?

24 THE ACCUSED PUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but it was a general

25 practitioner, and I explained what my condition was about. The general

1 practitioner then said he would inform one of his colleagues, a specialist

2 in neurology, but none of the doctors have shown up so far. I do require

3 further medical assistance and care. I think it is plain for all to see

4 that my condition is not very good, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I will take care that the attention of the

6 Registrar will be drawn to the fact that you have been -- that you

7 underwent surgery recently, and that proper attention is given to your

8 medical condition.

9 Whether that means that a specialist would see you today or

10 yesterday or the day after tomorrow is not in my hands at this moment.

11 But I'll look at it that the specific attention of the Registrar will be

12 drawn to your health condition.

13 Then Mr. Prlic, you wanted to address the Court, and although it's

14 not a custom in this Court that statements are given in relation to the

15 plea you entered, if you would like to clarify very shortly without giving

16 speeches, I'll allow you to do so. But please, be aware if you want to

17 make an unsworn statement at trial, the Rules specifically provide for you

18 to give an unsworn statement.

19 I also have to warn you that whatever you say here, it's up to the

20 Chamber finally what value, what evidentiary value it would be given. So

21 I don't know whether you consulted with counsel when you requested to

22 address me. That's one issue. And the second is if you want to address

23 the Chamber, although the other Judges will read the transcript, it might

24 be a better occasion to do so when all three Judges are there. But if you

25 want to make a very short statement, I would say not more than 1 to 2

1 minutes, then I'll give you an opportunity to do so.

2 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your

3 understanding, Your Honour. All I was about to say were two or three

4 words, or rather sentences. I want to say that I sympathise with Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina and all the victims referred to in the indictment. I

6 merely wish to point out that I believe this Tribunal will give me an

7 opportunity to present the truth about my own involvement in the war in

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina and that the truth itself will set me free and

9 acquit me on all the counts of the indictment. I just wish to add yet

10 again, to reiterate, that I plead not guilty on all counts of the

11 indictment. It was my original intention to say as much as this, and I

12 don't think that is too much.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You will get an opportunity in due course to present

14 your case and to bring to the attention to the Chamber whatever you deem

15 useful, and I do understand that you again wanted to underline your not

16 guilty plea on all 26 counts.

17 All the items on my agenda, apart from one, have been addressed.

18 The one item still there is that the Chamber has received a -- no, perhaps

19 we first turn into private session for one second.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

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18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any issue one of the parties, either Defence

1 or Prosecution, would like to raise at this very moment?

2 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. Thank you very much, for the

3 Prosecution.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No issues to be raised by the Prosecution.

5 Let me then put it in a negative way: Do I well understand that

6 no one of the Defence counsel wants to raise an issue at this very

7 moment? Yes.

8 Then, this concludes this Initial Appearance. There's no need at

9 this moment to set new dates, since all the accused have entered pleas on

10 all counts. Therefore, we'll adjourn without any new dates set at this

11 very moment.

12 --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance adjourned

13 at 4.27 p.m.

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