1 Tuesday, 11 July 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good

8 morning to everyone. Case IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor against Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is the 11th of

10 July, Tuesday, 2006. I'd like to say good morning to all those in the

11 courtroom. This is our last sitting before the recess in which -- and we

12 continue in August. I was told that the witness is running late and will

13 be here in about ten minutes. It is a traffic problem and a technical

14 difficulty, so we've got a few minutes before he arrives. Not to waste

15 time, let us deal with the exhibits straight away for the previous

16 witness, Manolic. That was placed on standby, that matter, and I'm going

17 to give the floor to Mr. Scott and then we'll hear from the Defence.

18 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Yes, Your

19 Honours, the Prosecution would tender -- or does tender the following

20 exhibits concerning the witness Manolic: 37 -- sorry, I should say

21 P 00037, P 00068, P 00134, P 00312, P 00699, P 01325, P 01452, P 01883,

22 P 02122, P 02302, P 03704, P 03112, P 04740, P 05498, P 06123, P 08012,

23 P 09645, P 09649, and P 09673, which is the Manolic book, and specifically

24 the following pages: 210, 246 to 250, 262 to 267, 281 to 288, 317 to 327.

25 Thank you, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm going to give

2 the floor to the Defence. I know that it was Mr. Praljak's Defence and

3 Mr. Prlic's Defence, as well as Stojic and Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Coric as

4 well. Now, the numbers -- Mr. Karnavas, would you like to start off?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. If I could start first by responding to the

6 Prosecution's offer. Given that we are in an adversarial setting and

7 given the nature of the proceedings here, we both -- we can't have it both

8 ways where the Prosecution just introduces documents and the Defence is

9 limited in time of cross-examination. It's our collective position, as I

10 understand it, that only documents that are presented to the witness for

11 the witness to comment on should be introduced, particularly if they're

12 presidential transcripts. If the witness isn't given an opportunity to

13 comment on it, I don't believe that simply -- it should just come in

14 simply because it was shown to the particular witness without any

15 particular comment.

16 With respect to the book, I believe the entire book should be

17 translated, not just snippets of it, so I -- we don't have an objection to

18 that book coming in, but it should be the entire book and not just part of

19 it.

20 As far as documents from the Prlic Defence team, on page 4613 I

21 misspoke apparently. I introduced a document as 1D 270012. The correct

22 number should be 1D 00526. So that's the document that we are tendering:

23 1D 00526. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Ibrisimovic.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

1 stressed last time or, rather, I raised an objection last time in line

2 with what Mr. Karnavas said that, respecting the general principle of

3 exhibits, on the list proposed by Mr. Scott we have nine documents which

4 weren't presented to the witness at all, and I said last time that those

5 documents could perhaps be marked for identification but nothing more than

6 that. And Mr. Scott said last time that there will most probably a

7 witness in the future to whom those documents can be shown. So I join in

8 my colleagues to say that I don't think those documents can be admitted

9 into evidence as yet.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Ms. Nozica.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We would

12 like to propose 2D 0040 document, and I'd like to join my other colleagues

13 with respect to the transcript. I agree with what Mr. Karnavas said, and

14 I'd like to stress that during the cross-examination we were opposed to

15 the introduction of 01325. That was the transcript from a session which

16 Mr. Manolic himself said he had not attended. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wholly support the

19 standpoints put forward by my colleagues Mr. Karnavas and Mr. Ibrisimovic.

20 That is my own position. I don't wish to repeat it. The only thing that

21 my colleagues omitted to say is this: That the book by Witness Manolic

22 does not have an integral -- is not translated in its entirety, and so

23 they are seeking to have just certain pages admitted into evidence. I

24 think that the book as a whole should be admitted, of course translated in

25 its entirety.

1 And similarly, all the presidential transcripts which are admitted

2 into evidence require an integral translation, not just translations of

3 the excerpts put to the witness. Some of them are already translated, but

4 not all.

5 Now, as far as the Defence of General Praljak is concerned, we

6 would like to propose the following exhibits: Document 3D 0007, 3D 0009,

7 3D 00010, and 3D 00011, 3D 00142, 3D 00145, 3D 00186, 3D 00295, 3D 00302,

8 3D 00305, 3D 00306, 3D 00307, 3D 00313, 3D 00314, 3D 00318, 3D 00319, and

9 the last document is the book, 3D 00320. The title is "The Truth About

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Documents 1991 to 1995," just the chapters 1 to 5 on

11 pages 53 to 570, and those chapters are systematically listed agreements

12 during the critical period between the involved parties with any comments.

13 Just the agreements. And finally, we used a document that has already

14 been tendered. It is 3D 00006. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Ms. Alaburic.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning. I would

17 like to oppose the proposal made by the Prosecutor that the book by

18 Witness Josip Manolic be tendered into evidence, which is under 09673 P,

19 and if I might be allowed to explain. It is rather lengthy, but I hope it

20 will be useful to the Trial Chamber when it decides on the exhibit.

21 First of all, the book has not been translated in its entirety so

22 the readers, in reading certain pages of the book which have been

23 translated, are still unclear and do not know that Josip Manolic in that

24 book is said to be the author of the syntagma that is used about the

25 historical and natural borders of Croatia which is one of the syntagmas

1 which we are discussing in this trial.

2 Second, the readers, when reading parts of the book that have been

3 translated by the Prosecutor, cannot know that the -- the book was written

4 for the political promotion of Josip Manolic, which is clearly stated on

5 page 14 of the book. Just these two examples can indicate or, rather,

6 show the unreliability of that exhibit.

7 What I consider to be more important, however, is the following:

8 For Witness Manolic to be able to achieve his own political promotion

9 through this book, he incorrectly wrote down the contents of his

10 interviews by changing certain words and sentences and leaving out

11 essential portions of the answers, which makes the interviews in the book

12 have a different meaning. They do not have the meaning in the book that

13 they did at the time they were published because they are not the original

14 integral interviews. The Court will be aware of the fact that the Defence

15 did not have enough time to amass all the original interviews and compare

16 them all with the interviews shown in the book, shown partially in the

17 book, because we received the book as an exhibit just on Friday before the

18 start of the witness's testimony. That is why I just have several

19 objections and comments to make and I'm going to prove what I said so far

20 on the basis of four interviews.

21 The first interview --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker kindly slow down, please.

23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] -- was published in Globus on the

24 18th of June, 1993, and I'm going briefly to state now, with your

25 permission, what are the key points of the interview that have been left

1 out in the book by Josip Manolic, and I have here the original interviews

2 as well so that I can prove what I'm saying straight away.

3 On page 250 of the book, which is page 3 of the translation of the

4 book, in the first section, the question -- this following question has

5 been left out, and I quote: "Is the information correct that Zagreb is

6 striving for replacing Mate Boban?" And Josip Manolic answered, and I

7 quote: "Zagreb can do as much as striving for changing the policy which

8 led to the above consequences to the Croatian people."

9 So in that interview, Witness Manolic did not strive to have Mate

10 Boban replaced, says something else today. In that same excerpt, the

11 second sentence has been left out from the original -- in the original

12 answer, in the answer in the original interview, and that sentence reads

13 as follows: "Will politics yield to war or war to politics? That's not

14 the main question here for us."

15 The second example from the same interview: Immediately after the

16 answer, we have a question and answer that have been left out of the book,

17 and the question reads as follows: "Does not Boban get political

18 instructions from the cabinet and offices of Zagreb politicians who were

19 born in Herzegovina?" The answer reads as follows: "You'd have to ask

20 them that. You'd have to ask them how much influence they wielded on

21 politics which led us into an open conflict with the Muslims. I cannot

22 assess how great their influence was because over the past year I was not

23 involved in resolving the crisis in BH."

24 The third example from the same interview reads as follows: The

25 last section of the interview is in fact part of a sentence in response to

1 the question: "Does not Croatian policy in BH is reflected between the

2 conflicts within the HDZ and is not the policy in Bosnia the main point of

3 dissent or divergence?" And an answer to that, given by Manolic, is as

4 follows: "I don't think that is the main reason. The main reasons are

5 internal problems, although --" and here we get to the part of the

6 sentence which was published in the book as an integral answer. So today

7 Witness Manolic says that Bosnia was the main point of divergence. In

8 June, 1993, in the original interview which is -- he claims differently,

9 in this falsified version.

10 The second interview from Globus, dated the 10th of September,

11 1993, which is 2 -- page 262 of the book or, rather, the first page of the

12 translation of that portion of the book, Witness Manolic omitted the last

13 sentence of the original interview, and it reads as follows. I quote:

14 "The set-up of Herceg-Bosna must not --"

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker repeat what she just said.

16 Could the speaker kindly repeat the sentence.

17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will. I'm sorry. The last

18 sentence of the interview, which was left out in the book, it was not

19 published in the book, reads as follows, and I quote: "The set-up in

20 Herceg-Bosna must not be an obstacle to cooperation because the results of

21 the Croatian population throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina leads us along

22 that course."

23 Now, the third interview is one that was published in Danas on the

24 12th of October, 1993, which is page 263 and 264 of the book or, rather,

25 in the English text it is page 1 and 2 of the translation of that part of

1 the book. Comparing it with the original interview, six vital statements

2 have been left out. Here is the first one, a statement which reads, and I

3 quote: "I do not know up until now any bargain struck between Milosevic

4 and Tudjman thus far, or pact."

5 Second, the beginning of the answer to the question has been left

6 out of why he is criticising Mate Boban, and that part of the answer reads

7 as follows: "I don't think this is the right moment to speak about what I

8 criticise Boban for."

9 Third, the question and answer were left out which, in the

10 original interview, after a statement about how to solve the problem of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that question and answer read as follows, and I

12 quote: "Would that mean abolishing the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna

13 as it now stands?" And the answer is, and I quote: "Would the

14 abolishment of the Croatian Republic -- whether it is abolished or not is

15 -- what is important for us is that national interests of all the ethnic

16 groups be respected living in the territory of that state."

17 I'd just like to say why I consider this to be important. It is

18 because it is clear that after the establishment of the Croatian Republic

19 of Herceg-Bosna, Witness Manolic did not consider it to be important

20 whether we -- it was a republic or whether it was some other sort of

21 territorial set-up for Herceg-Bosna.

22 Furthermore, as the fourth example of incorrectly quoted

23 interviews from an answer contained in the third chapter on page 263 of

24 the book, the following sentence was left out, and I quote: "Whether it's

25 going to be a republic or whether it's going to take some other shape for

1 an autonomy is a matter of agreement."

2 Now, the fifth example. The first next question and answer were

3 left out of the book, and the question read as follows: "Are there any

4 differences between you and the Defence Minister, Gojko Susak, with

5 respect to resolving the BH problem?" Witness Manolic answered at the

6 time, and I quote: "I don't know what Gojko Susak advocates, what

7 position he takes. So far he has not made his thoughts clear with the

8 exception of his statement made in the Croatian Sabor parliament and some

9 statements made in Herzegovina."

10 The sixth example. The last section was left out --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many more examples do you

12 have, Counsel?

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I just have a short example from

14 the Globus newspaper, and then a concluding part relating to author's

15 copyright.

16 So the last section of the interview was left out, and it reads as

17 follows, and I quote: "The agreement between Tudjman and Izetbegovic

18 leaves great scope for manoeuvering to Croatian policy on an international

19 level. It strengthens our positions with our neighbours. That is yet

20 further proof of our peaceful policy which we have advocated since the

21 very start of the aggression with our sovereignty."

22 Now I'm going to give an example of the fourth interview or,

23 rather, not, because they are similar.

24 Now, my objections to the book itself: There -- we're not

25 challenging the fact that, according to Croatian law and laws of other

1 countries, interviews are one form in which journalists can express

2 themselves and that copyright over these interviews are held by the

3 journalist not by the individual granting the interview. Without

4 agreement from the journalist, nobody has the right to publish authorised

5 texts of or, rather, texts of journalists without agreement from the

6 author, nor do they have the right to change them in any way, to change a

7 journalist's original -- the author's original work. This would be

8 distortion, and according to Croatian criminal law, it is subject to

9 criminal responsibility and accountability.

10 I tried to ascertain whether Witness Manolic did have agreement

11 from the author of the interviews for publishing those interviews and for

12 distorting the contents of those interviews and I have not succeeded in

13 receiving information or, rather, no journalist has told me that that

14 agreement was indeed given. Therefore, I propose that these exhibits --

15 this exhibit, on the basis of Rule 89(B) and (D), should not be admitted

16 into evidence because we are not dealing with reliable documents but,

17 rather, they are documents that don't have the necessary probative value.

18 Now, as far as exhibits are concerned for the Defence, we just had

19 one exhibit, and that is why I would like to ask that it be admitted into

20 evidence now. It is 4D 00066.

21 Thank you. And I apologise for taking up so much time but I

22 considered these matters to be very relevant.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The last counsel.

24 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we agree with

25 everything that our colleagues have said before us, and we'd like to

1 tender the following exhibits: 5D 00477, and 5D 00478. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott, in reply

3 quickly, please.

4 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, all I did so far was list the

5 documents that I offered, so I think I'm entitled to a fair response.

6 First of all, Your Honour, on the issue of that transcripts that

7 were used or not used, Your Honour specifically encouraged us to offer all

8 the transcripts through this witness and via this witness that he had --

9 did or could authenticate, and I took the Chamber's direction to heart and

10 that's what I tried to do. If they are listed and tendered, the Defence

11 can certainly raise any questions about them as they wished. If that's

12 not the case and if the Prosecution relied on the direction of the Chamber

13 to its prejudice and to its detriment, then in the future, Your Honour, I

14 will just simply take more time with the witness, I'll make less of an

15 effort to make the witness shorter rather than longer, and will make sure

16 that we touch on every single document listed, if that's how we have to

17 proceed. I did not understand from the Court's direction that that was

18 the case with this witness, and we stand by tendering all the exhibits

19 which I read to the Chamber earlier.

20 The -- in terms of the book, Your Honour, the -- the book is the

21 book. By that I mean I suppose there is no book that's been written in

22 history that there wouldn't be someone somewhere which would say something

23 was misstated in the book or something was left out of the book, but that

24 is the book Mr. Manolic wrote. It is the book. It's not maybe the book

25 that the Defence wishes he would have written, but it's his book that he

1 wrote and that's the book that we have that's been tendered.

2 I suppose it's a little bit like someone sitting here listening to

3 these arguments, it's bit like someone who offered to put the Bible into

4 evidence and then someone objecting, well, you can't do that because the

5 Judas gospel isn't included, so therefore it shouldn't be admitted because

6 there was something left out. Well, that's a dispute for the ages, Your

7 Honour, but the point is the book is the book.

8 Now, counsel has made certain objections to -- to the content of

9 the book, which are fair comment, which they can argue, which they've

10 argued today, they can argue in the future, but that does not go, in our

11 submission, to the admissibility of the book itself. The book has been

12 offered in its entirety.

13 In terms of translations, Your Honour, the Court knows that this

14 institution is grossly overburdened on translations. There are not enough

15 translation resources to go around. There are many cases and many trials

16 where translations -- there is a backlog of translations. There are many

17 parts of longer documents, frankly, which some of them are clearly not

18 relevant. An example came up with the presidential transcript the other

19 day. There were pages and pages that went on about other domestic issues,

20 introduction of the kuna, other things about trade agreements. There is

21 no reason, in our respectful submission, Your Honour, to take scarce

22 translation resources and devote those resources to translating irrelevant

23 material, which means that -- sorry. Judge Prandler is encouraging me to

24 slow down. Thank you, Judge.

25 I just remind the Chamber that everything that's translated for

1 this courtroom or for this trial means that something else in some other

2 trial in some other case is not getting translated, and I think it's --

3 it's not a reasonable use of scarce resources to translate irrelevant

4 material.

5 Now, having said that, the point is this: The Defence has this

6 material. They have had the material for some time. The Manolic book is

7 well known. They certainly knew that that book would feature, and I

8 invite them to submit any additional translations of the relevant parts

9 which -- for translation that they would like to do. So, Your Honour,

10 that's our position. I think all the exhibits that we've tendered should

11 be admitted for the reasons stated.

12 As to the Defence exhibits that have been tendered -- I should say

13 before I do that, Your Honour, there were two -- before I close on the

14 Prosecution exhibits, I know there are at least two that were specifically

15 used by the Defence, including P 00699, and P 01452. So those were used

16 by the Defence if not by the Prosecution itself and may have been used by

17 both, I'm not sure at the moment, but they were certainly used by the

18 Defence.

19 The -- depending on the Court's ruling as applies to the

20 Prosecution, I would note that the Defence marked and have tendered the

21 following exhibits, which apparently were not used or presented to the

22 witness, and that is: 3D 00319, 3D 00320, 3D 00305, 3D 00307, 3D 00145,

23 3D 00011, and 3D 00142. And I note for the record that at the least two

24 documents were put to the witness, I believe by the Praljak Defence, which

25 were given no number, and I don't know what the status of those documents

1 are. I'm not familiar with the practice of showing documents to a witness

2 for which no exhibit number is given, but I know that happened on at least

3 two occasions with the witness.

4 As to Exhibit 3D 00295, the Prosecution objects to its admission.

5 This is the alleged handwritten note on Europcar stationery. There's been

6 no adequate foundation or authentication of this document. We don't know

7 where it came from. And the Chamber may remember that document as,

8 Mr. President, you yourself raised some questions about it, and until

9 there's further foundation for that document, we object to it. Thank you.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very briefly, Mr. President. With respect to the

11 book, the Prosecution offered it in its entirety. Now, if this was an

12 English book, a book in English, or say German, or say Hungarian, or say

13 in French, I suspect those who could read those languages would read the

14 entire book or would have access to the entire book as opposed to a

15 portion of it.

16 We heard a great deal of Mr. Manolic's testimony. His book tracks

17 his political career. All of it is suspect, as far as we are concerned,

18 particularly in light of his past in the sort of services, as they call

19 it.

20 Secondly, I believe Ms. Alaburic was -- was quite right in

21 pointing out that the -- the interviews in there have been redacted.

22 Also, if you might recall, Mr. President, there was one example by the

23 Coric Defence counsel where it was shown to the -- to the witness where

24 he'd given an interview and then he wanted the interviewee [sic] to redact

25 a certain portion of it. Obviously given the nature of his personality,

1 being a spy or in the services from the Tito era, the gentleman believes

2 that's the way to conduct business.

3 Also, you may recall, when I began my cross-examination I tried to

4 pinpoint to the gentleman the fact that he owns the copyrights. This is

5 Manolic on Manolic, so therefore I believe he's distorted his previous

6 interviews and therefore it has very little probative value.

7 Now, I understand that everything can be introduced, but at least

8 if it is going to be introduced, I -- I hope that the Trial Chamber takes

9 into consideration the fact that he has self-edited his prior statements

10 in the press, and this is his book, it's not a book by a journalist on

11 Mr. Manolic, and so I take -- so I would ask that.

12 One thing I think I need to -- to -- to discuss, Mr. Scott

13 indicated that the Praljak Defence team said they marked and they tendered

14 certain documents but which were not used. They marked the documents, as

15 I understand it. They weren't tendered because they weren't shown to the

16 witness. And I don't know what the purpose behind that comment was, but I

17 suggest -- I take it what the Prosecution is saying is any time a document

18 is marked by the Defence and is presented to the other side without

19 necessarily being shown to the witness, that document should come in. I

20 don't believe that's the rule. If it is the rule, we certainly need some

21 guidance on that.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just two remarks.

23 Colleague Scott has said -- said that the proposed book was written by

24 Josip Manolic. Had this book been translated in its entirety, the

25 Prosecutor would know that that book was not written by Josip Manolic. As

1 a matter of fact, not a single word in the book was written by Josip

2 Manolic. That book consists of parts of published interviews and of an

3 historic text which is a sort of a commentary, and that historic text was

4 not written by Josip Manolic but by Dragutin Hlad, who is indicated here

5 as the person who prepared the book, a person that Manolic also confirmed

6 himself that he had not written those comments. By the nature of things,

7 Manolic could not have written his own interviews. So this is not a book

8 written by Josip Manolic.

9 And secondly, here we are not -- the Defence is not objecting to

10 the admission of this book, if we take the Biblical example, because the

11 Bible does not contain Judas gospel but, by paraphrasing this comment, we

12 can say that the Prosecutor is invoking a Bible which does not contain a

13 gospel by Luke, and he is claiming that this is an entire Bible.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe I have to

15 provide you an additional explanation in view of my colleague's comments.

16 First of all, the Prosecution is against the introduction of

17 3D 002 -- 00320, which is a book by Miroslav Tudjman, "The Truth About

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina," which chapters 1 to 5 published for the public and

19 publicised all the relevant documents, different agreements, bilateral,

20 multi-lateral, what have you, from the war period, which can provide one

21 with proper insight into the developments at the time.

22 So first of all, one agreement was proposed, the second agreement,

23 the third agreement. All these agreements are relevant to this case.

24 And, Your Honour, we will -- we will be obtaining all these agreements in

25 this way or another -- one way or another, but the thesis which was

1 advanced here, and which is why these agreements should have been

2 presented to the witness, is that the witness was a big expert on Croatian

3 policy towards Bosnia and Herzegovina, but when you ask him anything which

4 went outside the scope of the business of the presidential office in

5 Zagreb, or when you presented to him any document which did not refer to

6 that same topic, in brief, his -- in a nutshell, his response was, "I

7 don't know." So that very fact that he would have responded to all 220

8 documents, "I don't know," or "I don't know the details," shows that this

9 is not a relevant piece of evidence, that the witness either doesn't know

10 or pretends not to know what he's talking about, because if he does know

11 the Croatian policy vis-a-vis Bosnia and Herzegovina, he ought to be aware

12 of some at least the principle bilateral or multi-lateral agreements that

13 were concluded.

14 At that point, of course, with every justification, the Court

15 intervened, and it was obvious at that point that we could not show the

16 witness all these documents one by one and so that it was implied that the

17 entire book could be tendered.

18 Talking about the burden of the translation service, we can tell

19 you that we have already requested a translation of it, and we were

20 refused because it was a book. Well, I claim that it is not a book

21 because simply it is a compilation of different agreements. So that we

22 adhere to this request that chapters 1 from 5 should be tendered into

23 evidence and admitted and we shall seek to have them translated.

24 As regards the other object -- numbers which the colleague

25 objected to, these were six identical documents, identical in content.

1 The differences were only in terms of time and locations, and the

2 markings. These were documents about convoys of armaments going from

3 Croatia to Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 If you remember, I held all six of them in my hand. I said let us put one

5 of them on the ELMO. All the parties and the Court received -- were

6 presented those documents, or if there had been any questions, they could

7 have been raised at the time. So that I think that in keeping with our

8 past practice, these documents should indeed be tendered and admitted.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. As

10 regards this objection the documents that have not been shown cannot be

11 tendered, I have understood your instructions that, as you told Mr. Scott,

12 that these documents need to be formally shown for the witness to confirm

13 their authenticity, but the Prosecution failed to do that. As Mr. Scott

14 has said that 00699 and 00452 are problematic, that means that still seven

15 documents remain that have not been presented to this witness.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the Trial Chamber shall

17 rule on the admission, on the question of the admission of exhibits, and

18 this will, of course, cover the exhibits that we discussed today, and that

19 will be attended also by a decision on the previous witness, Hujdur.

20 Before we bring the witness in, I should like to speak -- to

21 address the accused to tell them that yesterday Mr. Praljak again took the

22 floor after the statement of the witness. I should like to remind them

23 that when the examination-in-chief is being conducted, cross-examination

24 is conducted by the Defence counsel and only exceptionally the accused may

25 be allowed to speak, not to speak about his own case but in order to

1 provide us with some precise fact or piece of information in reference to

2 what the witness has said. We have repeatedly said that the -- on a

3 number of occasions a number of the accused have taken the floor to state

4 and profess their innocence. There is no need for you to do this. You

5 have done so in your written submissions, and there is no need for you to

6 repeat this every time a witness speaks.

7 Also, when you intervene in connection with a witness who is

8 speaking about some specific facts, we want such interventions to actually

9 refer to who, when, how. That is what counts, that is what matters, and

10 not to ask questions regarding some personal sentiments, political

11 attitudes, because where facts are concerned, we want to have precise data

12 about precisely facts, and only after the -- all the evidence has been

13 presented we shall be making the conclusions. So I'm sure that you're

14 perfectly aware of what the sense of my words is.

15 We have lost enough time, and there is no need to lose any more

16 time. We have devoted over 45 minutes to exhibits. Now we shall bring in

17 the witness who has been waiting outside for about half an hour now.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 WITNESS: SUAD CUPINA [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. The

22 Prosecution will soon finish with the examination-in-chief. There are

23 several questions left.

24 Mr. Scott.

25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

1 Examination by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Cupina.

3 A. Good morning.

4 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, before I forget to do this, I believe

5 that the map that was marked by the witness - and I'll certainly be guided

6 by the registry - but I believe the next In Court exhibit number would be

7 00026 as In Court exhibit number which we will tender as marked by the

8 witness.

9 Q. Sir, before we leave the question of the mosques, which is one of

10 the places we left off yesterday when you were marking certain locations

11 on the map, you have mentioned personally seeing several of the mosques

12 that you have identified to the Judges as seeing those mosques being

13 shelled by the HVO. Can you tell the Judges, at the time that you

14 observed this, did you see any ABiH or Muslim military positions in or in

15 the immediate vicinity of any of these mosques?

16 A. Near the mosque at the top of Cernica and the Karadzoz-bey mosque,

17 there were no positions of nor any military forces nor even of the

18 Ministry of the Interior.

19 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask that the witness please be shown Exhibit P

20 09044 and specifically the photo which is marked ERN 02083624.

21 Q. Sir, can you tell us what that is and how it relates to your

22 testimony yesterday about sniping.

23 A. This is the building of the Privredna Banka, the commercial bank

24 of Sarajevo, or the glass building, as people in Mostar used to call it,

25 and from these positions they shelled civilians and other persons in the

1 zone of responsibility of the HB H -- ABH army [as interpreted].

2 Actually, they sniped at them.

3 Q. Could I next ask you to look, please --

4 A. Excuse me. Let me just add this: Already on the 18th of April,

5 1993, my brother Mirad Cupina was on duty in the command of the brigade,

6 and they reported from Sanic's company that a man had been killed by a

7 sniper, a citizen of Mostar at that locality, and also that in the streets

8 right next to the court Slavko Cavar I believe was also killed by a

9 sniper. That is also the testimony of my brother, and I myself would like

10 to confirm that that happened at that time during what the Muslim people

11 used to call the sniper war prosecuted by the HVO.

12 Q. Can I ask you, please, to next look, and for the witness to be

13 shown also part of the same exhibit, P 09044, but specifically photo

14 ERN 02083625, which I see on the screen.

15 A. This position is the Hotel Bristol, or a bridge whose name was

16 changed from Musala to Tito's Bridge just prior to the war and during the

17 war itself. This bridge was erected by international forces. This is the

18 Hotel Bristol. The street's name is the street of the Mostar Battalion.

19 It was constantly under sniper fire from the direction of the Aleksa

20 Santic high school.

21 Q. Were there occasions, sir, where -- during the war where you

22 crossed this bridge?

23 A. I often crossed this bridge because eminent people from Mostar

24 needed to inspect and tour the lines, and I was a renown citizen of Mostar

25 having been awarded awards, sports awards, so it was logical that I should

1 too go and see the lines. Just behind the hotel, the Bristol Hotel, there

2 was a company, and when I crossed over by car I know that I barely escaped

3 alive. I often also went there behind Cernica to Mirza Hadziomerovic's

4 flat. My building was on the Bulevar, so I had a flat there which I had

5 been allotted as a deserved -- deserving citizen of Mostar, and it burnt.

6 My flat burnt on the 9th of May, 1993, and it was precisely across this

7 bridge that I managed to pull out my family, my wife and my children, and

8 some of my neighbours to safety, which is to say to the left bank.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. And that was normally -- that took place under sniper fire. There

11 was a wholesale attack by the HVO at the time.

12 Q. If I could have -- I think, just so the record is clear, I need to

13 show the witness the map again on the ELMO. If I can have the usher's

14 assistance. IC 00026.

15 Sir, just a moment ago, and it's no longer on the screen, you

16 referred again to the top -- excuse me, to the mosque at the top of

17 Cernica street. On your map, using the numbers, which mosque were you

18 referring to at the time when you say at the top of Cernica?

19 A. At the top of Cernica it is mosque number A. It is on Adema Buca

20 Street. It is this mark 1, marked by 1.

21 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I think we've finished with

22 that. Thank you, Madam Usher.

23 Sir, if we could possibly just try to clarify a couple of things

24 from yesterday. From 19 September, 1991, you were a reserve member of the

25 civilian police in Mostar, having been activated during the war; is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, that is correct. My wartime schedule, assignment was the war

3 station of the police of the Ministry of the Interior of B and H.

4 Q. Can you tell us again very briefly, sir, because we're trying to

5 finish your direct examination this morning, please, where was this war

6 station approximately located in Mostar?

7 A. It was opposite the bus station, the city -- the municipal bus

8 station, or the railway station, and it is the local commune called

9 Carina. It is near the Carinski Most, or the Customs Bridge, in

10 translation. It is just to the north. Some 200 metres from that place is

11 the North Camp, the northern camp, which is the largest camp -- which was

12 the largest Yugoslav People's Army camp or, rather, barracks of the army

13 in Herzegovina.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cupina. If we could move forward, I just want to

15 touch on -- you mentioned several times in your testimony yesterday

16 something called the Patriotic League. And before we conclude, I'd like

17 you to tell the Judges a bit more. What was the Patriotic League and when

18 was it formed in the Mostar region?

19 A. Yes, I was a member of the Patriotic League. That is an

20 organisation which was charged with bringing Bosnia and Herzegovina into

21 -- steering it into calm waters so as -- for it to be recognised by the

22 international community. In the Patriotic League were all the peoples and

23 citizens who were anti-fascists. People and citizens of Mostar, of

24 course. From the lists of the captured people which remained in the HVO,

25 you can see the names of such people and anti-fascist citizens. Our task

1 was to do this for Mostar and Bosnia and Herzegovina, but HVO wouldn't let

2 us because units came -- kept coming from Croatia and engaged in various

3 diversions, and I can tell you that --

4 Q. Please stop there for a moment, sir. When you said -- you said

5 that you can see names of such people, our task was to do this. When you

6 say "this," what does that mean? The task was to do what? Tell the

7 Judges.

8 A. Our task, the task of the Patriotic League was to, by peaceful

9 means, calm down the situation in Mostar and bring us into a situation

10 whereby we would be internationally recognised as Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Sir, was the Patriotic League also engaged in preparing to defend

12 itself and arming itself against the Serb aggression?

13 A. The Patriotic League waged a liberation and defensive war to save

14 home -- one's home, one's neighbours' homes, and so on. And it also took

15 part in arming the people. All the people and citizens who did not wish

16 to allow Greater Serbia to be created on the territory of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina.

18 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on now. Can you tell the Chamber, was

19 there a time when something in Mostar called the Independent Battalion was

20 formed, and what was that?

21 A. With the first aggressive operations in the southern reaches of

22 the city, I think that already on the 1st of April the JNA and the

23 reservists launched an aggressive onslaught against Mostar, 1992, so that

24 we emerged on the 4th of April from our underground operations because

25 after the explosion of the water truck in front of North Camp and the

1 north barracks of the JNA in the Zalik district.

2 Q. What was the relationship, if any, between the -- what had been

3 the Patriotic League and the Independent Battalion?

4 A. The Independent Battalion was the reserve force of the police and

5 all the patriotic forces who were bent on preventing the creation of

6 Greater Serbia and protection of the AVNOJ borders, Anti-fascist Council

7 of National Liberation borders, of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. Did the Independent Battalion participate in the liberation of

9 Mostar from the Serbs?

10 A. The Independent Battalion did participate in the liberation of

11 Mostar. However, we did not come upon support from the HVO, because in

12 the northern part, several kilometres away, about five kilometres away,

13 there was an enclave populated mostly by Muslims. We had -- we did not

14 have support of the HVO, and what support we did was very weak. And they

15 had already had an agreement, reached an agreement with the Serbs or,

16 rather, Boban and Karadzic kept agreeing to the detriment of the Muslims

17 in Mostar, and we did not receive adequate aid and assistance. What we

18 had were ordinary rifles. I think I had two machine-guns, one at the

19 entrance to Mostar and the other in the south, and one RPG at Vrh, and all

20 that to fight a corps that was called the Bileca Corps. So we were

21 insufficiently trained and insufficiently armed. We had no logistical

22 back-up either because they blackmailed us and said unless we joined the

23 HVO, we would get nothing. They would withdraw and let the Chetniks

24 slaughter us and that then they would reach an agreement with the Chetniks

25 as to how to divide Mostar.

1 JUDGE PRANDLER: Excuse me, sir. I would like to interrupt you

2 because you are -- first of all, I believe you speak very fast. Secondly,

3 I wonder if you are reading a text, because if you do, I believe you have

4 to speak up from your own thoughts. So okay, fine.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: He's not reading, Your Honour. These are memorised

6 lines that he's been given to say.

7 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, what's the basis for that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: There's nothing in the statement about any of this.

10 Nothing. There's nothing in the statement between 1992 and 1993, none of

11 this. This is all brand new stuff.

12 MR. SCOTT: We've covered this yesterday, Your Honour. I'm not

13 going to go back through it again unless the Court directs me to. We've

14 been through what was in the statement and not in the statement. The

15 witness has nothing in front of him; I can see from here. He's giving his

16 evidence. And I object. Once again, Mr. Karnavas always jumps to the

17 most negative possible interpretation of any event in the courtroom, and I

18 object to that.

19 Q. Now, sir, just -- go ahead, sir.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the answer,

21 I don't think there's any doubt that that is not contained in the

22 statement. The subject is not in the statement. It's something new that

23 we're hearing now.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 MR. SCOTT:

1 Q. Sir, let me ask two -- one clarifying question and one additional

2 question to close, I hope, on the issue of the Independent Battalion. So

3 the record is clear, a few moments ago - and again it's no longer on the

4 screen - you mentioned that the Muslim forces this time were in

5 opposition, standing in opposition to I think something called the Bileca

6 -- I may have mispronounced that - B-i-l-e-c-a - Corps, and just so the

7 record is clear, of what armed formation or military force was the Bileca

8 Corps?

9 A. The Bileca Corps was led by Momcilo Perisic, general of the

10 Yugoslav People's Army, and Pusara. That was the 10th Motorised Brigade.

11 It was the position of North Camp, or north barracks, and there was a

12 military base, an air force base, planes and helicopters in Jasenica,

13 Ortesje [phoen], Rodoca, in that area, and then there were paramilitary

14 formations, then there was the Nevesinje Brigade, the Bileca, Trebinje

15 Brigades --

16 Q. Thank you, sir.

17 A. -- and all the brigades --

18 Q. We need to move forward, please. My last question about the

19 Independent Battalion was did the Patriotic League in the Mostar region

20 continue to exist after the Independent Battalion was formed or not? Or

21 was it folded into the Independent Battalion?

22 A. At the point when Bosnia-Herzegovina received recognition, when we

23 created an army, when we had our own MUP, there was no need for the

24 Patriotic League any more and the legal organs of the state took over the

25 defence and liberation war in the Mostar area or, rather, throughout

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. First of all, there was the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. All right. Sir, which leads me to my next question: Can you tell

4 the Judges, if you know, when the 4th Corps of the ABiH was formed.

5 A. The 4th Corps of the ABiH was formed, I think, on the 16th or 17th

6 of November, 1992.

7 Q. And can you tell us, sir, again, what had been the Independent

8 Battalion or was the Independent Battalion, was that then moved into or

9 became part of the 4th Corps?

10 A. The Independent Battalion was active until the 13th of July, 1992,

11 or thereabouts, and it grew to become the 1st Mostar Brigade. And the 1st

12 Mostar Brigade was composed of corps and companies and other units from

13 the territory of Mostar municipality and further afield.

14 Q. All right, sir. Now, with the usher's assistance, can the witness

15 please be shown Exhibit P 00229.

16 Sir, if you see that document, can you tell the Judges what that

17 document is; and again is this one of the documents that you collected and

18 transmitted to the Sarajevo government during 1992 and 1993?

19 A. Well, that is the document, or one of the documents, and I can

20 explain why we had this: Because we lost positions on the left bank, and

21 since in the southern reaches of Mostar all the houses were set on fire,

22 the fighters and their families were left without homes and houses, and in

23 that part of Mostar there were about 1.000 military flats belonging to the

24 military, and our men, our people who were left homeless, moved into those

25 flats.

1 Now, to prevent that, they issued this order, and all the

2 inhabitants of Mostar rose in opposition to it.

3 MR. SCOTT: Can the usher please scroll down just so the witness

4 and others can see the bottom of the page.

5 Q. Can I ask you to next look, sir, and the witness to be shown

6 Exhibit P 00488.

7 A. At the time -- at that same time, we had some informal information

8 which stated that they were doing that because they wanted to displace

9 people in a humane way.

10 MR. MURPHY: I don't think there is a question pending at the

11 moment. If Mr. Scott wishes this information, perhaps he would ask a

12 question. Thank you.

13 MR. SCOTT:

14 Q. Sir, did you have any other information about these events at that

15 time you can share with the Chamber about the order, the document we were

16 just looking at? 00488. The one that was just on the -- excuse me. I'm

17 sorry. 00229 is the one we were just looking at.

18 Sir, did you receive any other information around this time about

19 the implementation of this decision which is marked P 00229?

20 A. Well, let me tell you, as I said a moment ago, things happened

21 that way. We had problems about putting these people up. They wanted to

22 prevent it, and the conclusion was -- this conclusion was issued, stating

23 who could move into the flats and who couldn't. And first of all, it was

24 people who had signed a document and took the oath could move in. People

25 who were members of the HVO were given priority. And then anything left

1 over was given to the others. They did not allow the army to dispose of

2 the flats, although they were municipal flats belonging to the

3 municipalities.

4 Q. All right. Sir --

5 A. All those flats belonged to the municipality.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for

8 interrupting, but I think that the question gave rise to speculation, and

9 the witness has -- was asked for the reasons for which this decision was

10 taken, how they -- what guided them to bring in this decision. The

11 witness can't know that. He can only speculate. So the question opened

12 the door for speculation. We are interested in who, what, when and how.

13 So could this be clarified, who, what, when and how, because otherwise

14 we're going to lose half an hour in the cross-examination on this point.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott.

16 MR. SCOTT:

17 Q. Sir, a moment ago you said that people had to sign some sort of a

18 document and take some sort of an oath. What document had to be signed

19 and what oath had to be taken?

20 A. Oath of allegiance, stating their allegiance to the State of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know the -- remember the actual wording of

22 the text, but that was the oath of allegiance that they were asked to

23 take.

24 Q. Well, sir, I just heard you say in both Herceg-Bosna and then

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you say which -- to what entity were they asked

1 to take an oath of allegiance?

2 A. The oath of allegiance to the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

3 the Croatian Defence Council of Mostar municipality. And that was a

4 parastate, a state within the state. A state within the state of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which meant the disintegration of all the institutions

6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. You also mentioned a moment ago that you said something to the

8 effect - and again we don't have it on the screen now - but they wouldn't

9 allow the army to distribute or allocate the housing units. When you said

10 that, which army were you referring to, sir?

11 A. I was referring to -- well, the flats belonged to the Yugoslav

12 People's Army, but the BH army and the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not

13 have the right to dispose of those flats, because the sole right to

14 dispose of them was taken over by the leaders of Herceg-Bosna or the

15 Croatian defence community in Mostar municipality for all the empty flats,

16 all the flats that had been left empty in Mostar and the surrounding

17 regions.

18 Q. All right. Sir, now I would like to move forward to Exhibit

19 P 00488.

20 MR. SCOTT: Apparently, Your Honour, I'm told that -- I've just

21 been told that the English version in e-court apparently there is some

22 problem with it. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, but if we can

23 put the hard copy on the ELMO, please.

24 Q. Sir, if you can see that document. Once again, can you tell us

25 what that is, please; and if you recognise it, can you tell the Judges

1 once again whether this is one of the documents that you collected and

2 transmitted to the BH government?

3 A. Yes, it is. It is the rules of procedure on the protection of

4 refugees and displaced persons on the territory of Mostar municipality.

5 That was the Croatian Defence Council's rules, that this should be applied

6 to displaced persons and refugees. About 17.000 people who had come in

7 from the territory of Eastern Herzegovina, and that is territory which the

8 SAO of Eastern Herzegovina, as it was called, it expelled these people,

9 and sometime on the 16th of June they found themselves in Mostar.

10 However, the leadership of the HVO was opposed to this and they brought in

11 a large column of buses to expel those people, to take them to Zenica,

12 because they said that wasn't the agreement we reached, you must go to

13 your own canton or district, which the intellectuals of Mostar found

14 unacceptable and opposed it, and the Ministry of the Interior supported

15 us, as did the BH army. And that convoy was stopped and our people -- or,

16 rather, the refugees and dispelled persons did not end up in Zenica but

17 they stayed in Mostar.

18 So those buses were located in front of the pupils' centre, the

19 Djacki Dom. It's like a boarding school.

20 Q. Let me ask the witness to next be shown, please, Exhibit P 00485.

21 Sir, I'll again ask you if you recognise the document, and again

22 if this is a document that you collected and transmitted --

23 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Can you briefly tell the Judges what this document is.

25 A. This means that the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina no

1 longer existed and that all power and authority -- and that the state of

2 Bosnia didn't exist and all the power and authority was vested in the

3 parastate of the HZ HB and the Croatian Defence Council, the HVO, which

4 meant that they deleted all the documents of the State of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina by this decision and placed everything under the

6 control of their own units and departments.

7 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, clearly the witness is, to say the least

8 here, venturing a legal analysis of the contents of this document and its

9 effect. Your Honour, that's completely inadmissible and I object to that.

10 MR. SCOTT: If the witness could please be shown Exhibit P 00490.

11 P 00490.

12 Q. Once again, sir, do you recognise that document and can you tell

13 the Judges whether that is a document that you collected and provided to

14 the BH government?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. And ever so briefly, sir, what is that document about, if you

17 know?

18 A. That is -- it's, as we can see -- I don't know if it's the

19 integral document. It relates to the Croatian Defence Council of the 5th

20 of June. They took over all the enterprises in Mostar and placed all

21 their own people, as far as I can see, all their directors, or whatever

22 they call them; managers, directors, whatever.

23 Q. If you can find on the page, sir, in the -- excuse me, Your

24 Honour. Can you look at the item on the page which is number 01-1745/92.

25 My apologies. I didn't realise there were multiple documents on the B/C/S

1 page. Would you look at that particular document and tell us what that

2 is, please.

3 A. Could you zoom down, please? I can't see it on the screen.

4 Q. Upper-left corner on the screen, I believe, Mr. Cupina. Number 0

5 -- Broj 01-1745/92. And the text is above that.

6 A. Can I see the document lower down, please? I can't see that

7 portion on the document. As far as I know, this deals with flats.

8 Q. Just a moment. Can we move the picture -- the screen -- the image

9 down, the -- no, the other direction. The opposite direction.

10 A. Yes, the top. The top. So I can see the top. Thank you.

11 Q. Up a bit. Keep going. Stop, please.

12 A. Ah, yes, that's it.

13 Q. All right. Now, sir -- just please, ever so briefly, tell us only

14 -- so what was this document about, now that we have the right one in

15 front of you.

16 A. The flats which were vacated by the previous occupants are given

17 over to the HVO who, on the basis of set criteria, will give them over to

18 the Federal Secretariat of National Defence, or flats belonging to the

19 national defence previously.

20 Now, what did that mean? Due to the war operations, many people

21 -- many citizens of Mostar left the city of Mostar. They left with bags,

22 all their belongings in their bags, and left behind their flats. Some

23 people did so of their own free will, others were forced to leave because

24 the military police stormed their flats and took the people away to what

25 was the -- called the Celovina prison, an investigative prison, and to the

1 university of Dzemal Bijedic. And people also left Mostar, saving their

2 lives.

3 Now, the other flats, the remaining flats, were used by them.

4 That was their exclusive right. So many flats were left empty, and the

5 other people who left their flats were --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Obviously the witness isn't answering the question. The question took

9 quite another direction. Now we have the witness giving lengthy

10 explanations about something that has nothing to do with what he was

11 asked.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

13 MR. SCOTT:

14 Q. You said a moment ago, sir, that there -- there was a reference to

15 the military police expelling people. The military police, sir, of what

16 armed force? Whose military police was involved in this?

17 A. The military police of the HVO, and I think the commander at the

18 time was Zeljko Dzidic.

19 Q. And when you said -- and you also said "them." Hold on one

20 moment, please. Hold on. "Now, the other flats, the remaining flats were

21 used by them. That was their exclusive right." So who is the "them"

22 you're referring to?

23 A. You mean about those flats. The JNA. Those flats, the JNA flats.

24 Q. The JNA flats. A moment ago, sir, you said -- I'm looking at page

25 34, line 22, "Now, the other flats, the remaining flats were used by

1 them." Who is the "them" you're referring to? Who you are referring to?

2 A. The first lot of flats, well, the HVO used them to bring in their

3 own people in this humane way of resettling them, because Ante Valenta,

4 the creator of the book on humane resettlement laid the grounds for that.

5 We knew that that was something that was being prepared because mention of

6 that was made already in 1991 and 1992 to the effect that certain people

7 from Kakanj, Vares, and so on, would be resettled around Stolac, and this

8 was really put into practice. And I remember at those meetings they spoke

9 about a settlement in the area of Mostar Blato [phoen] being set up.

10 MR. MURPHY: [Previous translation continues] ... non-responsive

11 to the question, and we have no way of telling what area he's going to go

12 into and to make appropriate objections. Will Mr. Scott please ask

13 questions.

14 MR. SCOTT:

15 Q. Sir, in terms of the collection --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, would you please

17 limit your examination to questions of substance, because we've gone into

18 talking about Kakanj, Vares, Stolac, and so on. We're branching out the

19 now.

20 MR. SCOTT:

21 Q. Sir, you mentioned yesterday and again today the collection and

22 transmission of various documents and reports to the BH government, and an

23 issue was raised yesterday in reference to the time of the decisions

24 issued by the Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you tell

25 the Judges, please, were you collecting and transmitting documents

1 throughout 1992 and 1993?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I see the time and I've got a few more

4 minutes, if the Court would take a break here.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the registrar

6 to give me the time that the Prosecutor has taken thus far. Well, we can

7 continue for another few minutes.

8 MR. SCOTT: Now, Your Honour. All right.

9 Q. Sir, do you -- did you ever have any conversations with various of

10 the accused in this case concerning the status of the city of Mostar?

11 A. Well, with most of the accused here I had conversations, yes. In

12 May, 1992, I already spoke -- or Coric sent me a private letter, he calls

13 it a private letter, to the effect that we were poorly armed, poorly

14 organised, and that the HVO knows about that, they know how you should

15 wage a struggle, and that -- and I understood it that we should leave all

16 power and authority to the HVO for Bosnia-Herzegovina. I couldn't allow

17 that to happen. And they all said that it was the state of Herceg-Bosna

18 and that it would be conjoined to a Greater Croatia or, rather, Croatia,

19 that the Drina River would not be the border but that the border would be

20 on the Neretva River.

21 Q. Let me stop you there, sir. Let me ask you specifically: Did you

22 have a conversation about -- any conversation about these matters with

23 Mr. Jadranko Prlic and, if so, tell us briefly about that conversation,

24 and specifically address -- please specifically address your comment to

25 that question.

1 A. Since the Dzemal Bijedic University in November was practically

2 dismantled, the university was established, I think that the dean was

3 Kordic, November, 1992, is the date we're talking about, and I went to

4 Siroki Brijeg, the former Listica, to the premises of the Franciscan

5 monastery on a hill, and there were exams being held there. I went to see

6 Mr. Prlic, and in a conversation, he told me that this area would be

7 called Herceg-Bosna. There would be a parastate within a state, and that

8 the HVO were the only representatives in the area, et cetera. He said

9 things to the effect that we as Muslims had no claims that we could make.

10 He said we should go to our enclaves. I think he mentioned Zenica,

11 Sarajevo, et cetera.

12 Q. Did you have any conversations during this time period with either

13 Mr. Coric and Mr. Stojic in -- well, let me say, did your brother --

14 excuse me. Was your brother taken into custody by the HVO?

15 A. Well, around the 18th of April, 1993, having been on guard in the

16 corps or the brigade, my brother returned home and I think that the

17 president of the football club, Bijeljic Milo [phoen], took him in,

18 brought him in. He took him to the prison in the faculty of mechanical

19 engineering. His wife knew nothing about him for about two days. Then I

20 went to see Bruno Stojic, and Coric -- Valentin Coric as a result. I

21 asked my brother was. I assumed that --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... where did you go to see

23 Mr. Coric and Stojic; at what location?

24 A. I went to the headquarters at the end of the avenija, or avenue,

25 in Mostar.

1 Q. And can you tell the Judges, if you recall, where were the offices

2 of Mr. Coric and Mr. Stojic at that time in relation to one another?

3 A. I think there was the secretary's office between their offices.

4 Bruno Stojic was to the left, and Coric was to the right.

5 I arrived there and said that I had come to ask about the

6 whereabouts of my brother and about who had arrested him. I asked him to

7 release him by 12.00. I think it was quite hot at the time, and I had

8 this conversation.

9 My brother was released at 12.00, and naturally he had his own

10 story to tell. He said that he had been in prison with his neighbour Jovo

11 Srvla [phoen] and with a member of what they call the MOS, the Muslim

12 armed forces. They said that they had tied his hands and arms up, that

13 they had -- that there were other people there. He can give you a

14 statement as to who was there in the prison.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

16 A. There was an Albanian too.

17 Q. I'm going to stop you there, thank you. We have time limitations.

18 Sir, for the final couple of questions, can you tell us -- you talked

19 about various meetings and conversations with Mr. Pusic yesterday. Did

20 you ever meet or talk with Mr. Pusic in connection with the Muslim men who

21 had been taken from the Vranica building?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell us about that conversation, please.

24 A. We had such conversations when exchanges were being discussed. We

25 talked about all these matters. He was very decisive. He pretended not

1 to know anything, and he practically refused to discuss this subject.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... attention specifically to the

3 Vranica building now. Did you speak or meet with Mr. Pusic about the

4 Muslim men that had been taken from the Vranica building on the 10th of

5 May, 1993?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell us what was said in that regard.

8 A. He said that he knew nothing about them. He didn't know where

9 they were, how they had been taken away, although I personally know that

10 he was the be-all and end-all, the alpha and the omega, and he knew about

11 the whereabouts of each detainee in Mostar and he knew when they should be

12 released and in what manner.

13 Q. When you say the alpha and omega, the alpha and omega, to use your

14 terms, in reference to what?

15 A. In reference to prisoners, the citizens of Mostar, the people,

16 because all citizens of Mostar who were against the HZ HB and the HVO were

17 arrested and placed in these concentration camps naturally.

18 Q. All right, sir. Finishing on this, did there come a time in

19 approximately September, 1993, that you left Mostar?

20 A. When the governmental delegation arrived in Mostar, I think it was

21 headed by Enver Kreso, Omer Basic, and Hajrudin Sumar [phoen], they

22 suggested that I go to Sarajevo with them with their sons -- with my sons,

23 who were 8 and 12 years old, and with my wife I went to Sarajevo via the

24 mountains and was accommodated with the president of the region,

25 Mr. Mustafa Pamuk. This is a flat located right next to President

1 Izetbegovic's flat.

2 Q. Sir, can you just briefly tell us, because the Judges have heard,

3 I think, some references to this, how did you travel from Mostar to

4 Jablanica?

5 A. Through Bijelo Polje. We used a mountain path to get from Mostar

6 to Jablanica. You spend a night in the mountains and then continue on

7 foot. You could only carry a few things with you because -- well, we

8 practically had no water, no food, but we reached Jablanica, and then I

9 moved on to Sarajevo through the tunnel.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cupina.

11 MR. SCOTT: No further questions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution has

13 now concluded its examination-in-chief of the witness. The Prosecution

14 took up two hours and 40 minutes, so we have another four hours and 30

15 minutes because we've got an hour and 30 and then a few more hours this

16 afternoon. If the Defence counsel hasn't reached an agreement, each team

17 has 45 minutes, but if you have reached an agreement on the order that you

18 will be following, use up your time as you see fit. But the Defence

19 counsel has four hours and 30 minutes in total. If you haven't reached an

20 agreement, each Defence team has 45 minutes. We will resume in 20

21 minutes' time.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will give the floor to Defence

25 counsel now.

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. On behalf of

2 the Defence, I'd like to inform Your Honours that we have agreed on the

3 time and on the order we'll follow. I will start first, and I'll work

4 until the break. We'll use the time you have given us, and after the

5 break I will inform you of the order we will follow, if that is of

6 importance. Thank you.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, my name is Senka Nozica. I am a

9 lawyer from Sarajevo. I'll have some questions for you on behalf of

10 Mr. Bruno Stojic.

11 The Prosecution asked you about the Patriotic League today in

12 Mostar. You provided a detailed answer, but you didn't say when the

13 Patriotic League was formed in Mostar, nor did you say what your role in

14 the Patriotic League was.

15 A. The Patriotic League in Mostar was formed around -- or when the

16 Serbs arrived.

17 Q. Mr. Cupina, I'll put very simple and brief questions to you. I

18 want to know the date, the month, the year.

19 A. I'm not the accused here.

20 Q. You are the witness here.

21 A. I have my own way of speaking.

22 Q. You have to answer my questions.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're not an accused here, but

24 you have to answer the questions put to you. The accused mustn't be

25 subject to prejudice because of the witnesses, so please answer the

1 questions put to you.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

3 Q. When was the Patriotic League in Mostar formed?

4 A. When the Serbian and Montenegro reservists arrived in Mostar, on

5 the 19th of September. That's around -- that's about the date when the

6 war started. The 19th of September, 1991.

7 Q. 1991. What was the Patriotic League in fact?

8 A. It was an organisation that protected the interests of the

9 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. That's what you said. My question is very concrete: Was it

11 established on the initiative of the SDA part? Was it the military wing

12 of the SDA party?

13 A. Well, you could put it that way.

14 Q. So your answer is affirmative. If it was the military wing of the

15 SDA party, who were its members in Mostar? Were they members of other

16 ethnic groups, non-Muslim ethnic groups?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They were?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How long did those other members remain members of the Patriotic

21 League, and can you provide me with at least one name of such people, for

22 example, in Mostar, the members of the Crisis Staff of the Patriotic

23 League? You write about this in your book. Can you provide me with a

24 single name that is not the name of a Bosniak or a Muslim?

25 A. In the Crisis Staff? Well, the Crisis Staff was formed by the

1 Executive Board.

2 Q. I'm not talking about. I'm talking about the Crisis Staff of the

3 Patriotic League.

4 A. Well, on the whole the members were Muslims; but there was Fink,

5 Duzdevic, Dejanic [phoen], et cetera, who were members and who had

6 important roles to play in the Patriotic League.

7 Q. In 1991?

8 A. Yes. Many such people were in the Patriotic League.

9 Q. Tell me, you said today that the Mostar Independent Battalion was

10 established on the 4th of April, 1991. That's when it ceased to be an

11 illegal entity; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you a member of this Independent Mostar Battalion?

14 A. Yes. I was its commander.

15 Q. As of when?

16 A. From the time it was established up until the 15th of May, roughly

17 speaking.

18 Q. So that means from the 14th of April, 1991.

19 A. Yes, more or less.

20 Q. Afterwards you became the commander of the military police from

21 the 12th of June, 1992, and you were never relieved of those duties.

22 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I apologise for the interruption.

23 Perhaps it's correct, but twice now in the transcript the witness has said

24 -- and both the question and the answer has been indicated 1991, and I'm

25 wondering whether it wasn't -- 1992 wasn't the intended date.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ask the witness for

2 the precise date, please.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise. As far as the Patriotic

4 League is concerned, the witness said 1991. When we discussed the Mostar

5 Independent Battalion --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said the Patriotic League was

7 formed in 1991, and the Independent Battalion was on the 4th of April,

8 1992.

9 Q. Very well. You were the commander of the military police as of

10 the 12th of June, 1992.

11 A. Well, I was never relieved of those duties.

12 Q. Very well. The president of the commission of -- for exchanges,

13 you had that role from the 21st -- 25th of May until June, 1991; is that

14 correct?

15 A. I think a report was made. It was up until July, 7th of July, I

16 think. On the 8th of July, I became a commissioner for the company

17 Energopetrol, but a report was compiled then.

18 Q. On the 8th of July you became a commissioner for Energopetrol.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did you leave Mostar for good?

21 A. I think it was in September. I have it in my files. I have a

22 document in my files that shows the date I left Mostar and went to

23 Sarajevo.

24 Q. Which month are we talking about and which year?

25 A. It was in 1993, and I think it was in September or August. I

1 can't remember exactly. There's a document which I can provide you with.

2 Q. When you arrived in Sarajevo, were you involved in the military?

3 A. No, I wasn't.

4 Q. Very well.

5 A. I then became a selector of the Bosnia and Herzegovina team.

6 Q. I'm not asking you anything about that. We'll discuss sport later

7 on. You said that you were appointed or, rather, promoted to the rank of

8 officer in 1996; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, I think that is correct. The Presidency adopted that

10 decision. Nad kapetan, I think.

11 Q. And from 1993 to 1996 -- can we say that from July 1993 until 1996

12 you weren't involved in the military, you weren't engaged in the military?

13 A. I don't understand you.

14 Q. Can we conclude that from July 1993 until 1996 you were not

15 engaged in the military?

16 A. Well, yes, you can draw that conclusion, but I received that rank

17 from the Presidency.

18 Q. I'm not asking you about your rank, but can we draw the conclusion

19 that you weren't engaged in the military as of July, 1993, up until 1996?

20 The answer is simple; yes or no.

21 A. I think that in my military booklet I wrote down that I'd been

22 engaged in the military for 18 months.

23 Q. When you arrived in Sarajevo, and today you said that you lived

24 across the road of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic's flat --

25 A. No, in the flat of someone who lived next to Mr. Izetbegovic's

1 flat.

2 JUDGE PRANDLER: Both of you, you cannot go on like that --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Prandler, please.

4 MS. NOZICA: The Judge didn't have his microphone on, but I do

5 apologise. We will pause since we're speaking the same language.

6 Q. Cross-examination will be a little different from

7 examination-in-chief. We will both have to pause between questions and

8 answers.

9 Did you receive a flat in Sarajevo from municipality for your

10 temporary use during the period that you were there, from 1993 onwards?

11 A. From 1993 onwards I was temporarily accommodated in Mustafa

12 Pamuk's flat. Then I was accommodated with Meho Milisic, and then I

13 received a flat from Zaim Sarac, and then I received a military flat in

14 Murat Begovic Street number 2. I returned that flat. I became a deputy.

15 It was flat that belonged to the military, and then I was a tenant.

16 Q. You've mentioned a lot of flats, and apart from the first one, you

17 used all of these flats on the basis of the temporary law on abandoned

18 flats; is that correct?

19 A. I don't know on what basis I used them. My people helped me to

20 take care of my family.

21 Q. As far as the flat of Ahmet Murat Begovic is concerned, did you

22 use it on the basis of a decision municipality centre 07C/372/442 through

23 1993?

24 JUDGE PRANDLER: I push the button now and I believe that

25 everybody will understand me. I again ask Madam Nozica, I ask Mr. Cupina,

1 please be so kind not to speak so quickly. You will kill the

2 interpreters. I thank you very much.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise once again.

4 Q. You heard my question.

5 A. In Ahmet Murat Begovic Street number 2, there was a military flat.

6 I was in a flat that belonged to the military. I never received such a

7 decision from the municipality. As far as I know, it's a military flat.

8 It was on floor 4. I think the owner of the flat was a sports worker from

9 Brcko, Bijeljina, something like that.

10 Q. So, Mr. Cupina, he left the flat?

11 A. I don't know. I wasn't there.

12 Q. So how is it that you were in his flat if you don't know that he

13 had previously left the flat?

14 A. Well, because the army allocated that flat to me. I didn't take

15 it. The army provided me with that flat.

16 Q. It's not my intention to say that you seized the flat. I'm just

17 asking you whether you used that flat on a legal basis, on the basis of a

18 decision issued by the municipality on abandoned flats. Just say "yes" or

19 "I don't know," please.

20 A. I've never seen anything of that sort. I only received a decision

21 according to which I could use the flat. I have an army decision, and I

22 returned the flat to the army.

23 Q. Were you in the BH army at the time?

24 A. At what -- at what time?

25 Q. When you received that flat.

1 MS. NOZICA: Sorry.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Do you have the English translation in your

3 earphones? Please put the English translation to the earphones. Then you

4 will know when there is silence, you can speak. If you have anything else

5 or nothing on your earphones, you will never know, and your wonderful

6 temperament will carry you away. I understand this very well, but it's

7 very unhelpful, I'm sorry.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

9 Q. I will repeat my question. When you received this flat from the

10 army, were you in the BH army?

11 A. I receive the flat on the basis of the golden lily, but at the

12 time when I received the flat, I wasn't actively engaged in the BH army

13 because I was the selector for the Bosnia and Herzegovina team, and I

14 carried the flag and coat of arms with me throughout the world.

15 Q. Please tell me, who was the first commander of the Mostar

16 Independent Battalion?

17 A. Suad Cupina.

18 Q. What was Semso Hasic?

19 A. He was the commander of the Territorial Defence. You can see this

20 in the Mostar Jutro of August, in the military bulletin of the BH army or,

21 rather, in July this was published in the official paper. In Mostarsko

22 Jutro in July 1992. This is information you had come across in that

23 newspaper.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Was the Independent Mostar Battalion under

25 the command of the HVO? Was it resubordinated to the HVO on the basis of

1 a decision of the Mostar municipality Crisis Staff, dated the 24th of

2 April, 1992?

3 A. The Independent Mostar Battalion was always independent regardless

4 of the decisions of the Crisis Staff, but the Independent Battalion and

5 the HV [as interpreted] acted together against the Serbian and

6 Montegnegrin aggressor.

7 Q. Were you acting in coordination with the HVO while you were the

8 commander of the Mostar Independent Battalion?

9 A. It was a common fight, a joint fight we were engaged in, and

10 naturally we tried to coordinate our activities when confronted with a

11 common enemy at the time.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I've just received

13 some information according to which on page 49, line 19, it should read

14 the HVO and not the HV, as it says in the transcript.

15 Q. Mr. Cupina, what did the stamp of the Independent Battalion look

16 like?

17 A. At the beginning there was the lily, the lily insignia, and later

18 on the HVO so as to play up to the HVO, because they didn't allow us to

19 receive MTS materiel and technical equipment, food, and all the rest.

20 They threatened to leave Mostar, to pull out of Mostar, if we didn't

21 comply and that they'd leave us to the Serbs or Chetniks to kill us all,

22 and then they would return to Mostar after that.

23 Q. I do apologise. Just one moment. Let's take this slowly.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to Their Honours. I

25 understand the instructions given by the Judges, but I cannot allow in the

1 cross-examination the witness to speak endlessly, as much as he wants. I

2 will have to intervene and cut the witness short when he is not answering

3 my questions.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Cupina, did you sign, as a member of the Croatian Defence

5 Council, documents that we received from someone or sent out to someone?

6 A. No, I never signed them myself nor would I. Never, ever. If

7 there's something like that, that can only be a forgery, because I never

8 signed.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] May I ask the usher to put on e-court

10 Exhibit 2D 00067 now, please. Will you show that to the witness.

11 Q. Does it say the Croatian Defence Council at the time, the

12 Independent Battalion of the defence of the city of Mostar? Then it says

13 the 9th of May, 1992. It says "Request for artillery support." And this

14 document is important for -- because of another thing. Could we zoom down

15 the document, please, so that the witness can see his signature there.

16 Can we show the lower half of the document.

17 Mr. Cupina, is that a forgery?

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Nozica, can you give me

19 a reference with the numbers at the bottom of your document, please.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I can't see it on the screen, but the

21 document has our own Defence number and page number.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to have a hard

23 copy, not the screen, and I need to know the number at the bottom of your

24 page for me to access the hard copy.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] It is the page number, our page

1 number as introduced by the Defence, and it is a number that was placed on

2 the document subsequently. Have you found it?

3 Q. Now, is that your signature or is that a forgery? That's my only

4 question. Then we can move on.

5 A. Well, I can't seem to remember this document, and at the top I

6 don't see the number. Can I see the top of the document? Thank you. It

7 says "Strictly confidential," but there's no number there.

8 Q. Mr. Cupina, is it indeed your signature or is it a forgery? It's

9 very simple. The question is a simple one.

10 A. Well, I can't claim either way. I can't say anything about that,

11 whether it's my signature or not. Can I be allowed to say something now?

12 The reason is because the stamp remains in the area of responsibility of

13 the HVO.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you tell us where the

15 document comes from? What is the source? Where did you find it?

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] This document, as you can see at the

17 top, comes from the state archives of Croatia. There is a small -- can we

18 look at the top of the document? You have it in the original, but it is

19 the state archives of Croatia, and you can see the stamp in the upper

20 right-hand corner. It's a small stamp, but that's what it says, the

21 archives.

22 Q. May we take a look at the next document, please, if you don't

23 remember this one.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you were shown a

25 document where it says HVO, and it has your signature. Your answer is to

1 tell us what?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I say I don't remember this

3 document, because it doesn't say "Strictly confidential" plus a number.

4 There is no number or anything like that, so I would like to express my

5 doubts. The stamp remained in the area of responsibility of the HVO.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the signature?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's very easy to forge my

8 signature. I don't know if it's a forgery or not. I haven't got the

9 original for me to be able to state my views. If I had the original, I

10 would be able to give you an answer.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I continue?

12 Q. Now, can we look at 2D 00068 now, please, the next document in

13 line. May we look at the title, see the top of the page? Thank you. The

14 date. It has an internal number, and it is the same date, the 9th of May,

15 which is a very important date for you.

16 A. You mean it's important for you.

17 Q. I mean for you. Would you look at the bottom of the document,

18 please. Could we zoom down to the bottom of the document so the witness

19 can see his signature and the stamp.

20 What do you have to say to this document? Do you remember this

21 event of the 9th of May, that you are requesting these things and that you

22 are receiving this materiel and technical equipment that is mentioned

23 there?

24 The witness would like to see the top of the document again,

25 please.

1 There we have it. And you confirm with this document that you

2 took over the following materiel and technical equipment.

3 A. I don't remember all the documents, because Mostar was aflame that

4 day. So what I signed or didn't sign, I don't know. The command of the

5 Independent Battalion of the city of Mostar, there's no HVO above that.

6 And according to this document, you can see that it's just the command of

7 the Independent Battalion of the defence of Mostar without the HVO.

8 Q. The HVO was in the previous document, Mr. Cupina, and I asked you

9 whether you used the stamp with the chequerboard and lily emblems. You

10 said, "No, I didn't, and I never would, heaven forbid." So I'm asking you

11 the following now: Is that your signature? Yes or no.

12 A. This would appear to be my signature, but as I've already told

13 you, the Independent Battalion did not have a lily, and then they put

14 these two signs there because --

15 Q. I have to interrupt you, Witness. I have to interrupt you. Don't

16 abuse my time. Answer my question: Is that your signature next to the

17 stamp?

18 A. I can't remember the documents because all the documents remained

19 in the area of responsibility of the HVO, and so much time has gone by I

20 don't know what I signed and what I didn't sign. I can't say.

21 Q. Mr. Cupina, if you say that you cannot remember, then do you allow

22 for the possibility that you might have signed documents where it said

23 both the HVO and where there was a stamp as well with the lily sign and

24 the chequerboard sign? Do you allow for that possibility?

25 A. No, I don't allow for that possibility. I endeavoured to do

1 everything within the frameworks of Bosnia-Herzegovina, anything I signed

2 and so on.

3 Q. I know, because in your book - and we'll come to that book later

4 on - you denied ever having been in a joint command with the HVO. So my

5 next question for you is this: I will remind you that you are under oath

6 here, you have taken the solemn declaration, so try and remember things as

7 they happened.

8 Did you ever attend a joint meeting of the commands and units of

9 the Municipal Staff of Mostar HVO on the 29th of April, 1992, which was

10 also attended by Petar Zelenika, Rade Bosnjak, Ibro Halilagic, Mario

11 Mikulic, Franjo Golemac, and so on, where you discussed --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, in order to round off the

14 question just asked you by Counsel Nozica, whether she wanted to know

15 whether you allowed for the possibility of your having signed a document

16 with a stamp having the lilies and the chequerboard, a moment ago you said

17 that in the documents of your battalion you had to add the HVO sign,

18 otherwise you would have been deprived of technical assistance and you

19 would have been thrown out. Now, with that in mind, not to be expelled,

20 you added the HVO sign. So how can you then exclude the possibility of

21 having signed a document with the HVO insignia? Can you answer that

22 question, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember all the documents.

24 I'm looking at these documents for the first time, and I can't go back in

25 my mind to all the documents that I signed at the time. However, I'm

1 afraid that this is manipulation because the stamps of the Independent

2 Battalion on the 9th of May, 1993, all stayed in the area of

3 responsibility, and documents stayed there, in the area under the

4 responsibility of the HVO. So I don't know how this reach the Croatian

5 archives. Whether there was any underhand use of this, I can't say. I

6 can't remember each and every document, but I still say we added that sign

7 because they blackmailed us and forced us to do so. We had to do so at

8 all cost.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So you had some documents to sign

10 but without the stamp and seal. So you would sign without using the

11 seals; is that right?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had the stamp and seal at that

13 time, but later on -- well, after so many years I see all these documents

14 for the first time. First of all, we had nothing. We didn't have any

15 stamps or anything else. I don't know when stamp was actually made,

16 produced, but I know that we were dealing with displaced persons and

17 refugees and the defence of the left bank. So I don't know when this

18 stamp was devised for the first time.

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a supplementary question.

21 When you were commander of that battalion, what was the name of the

22 secretary or the person who helped you in drafting orders?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that they were military

24 personnel who were otherwise educated and trained in matters of that kind

25 Nafija Catic --

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm asking you that question

2 because in the two documents we were shown a moment ago the first document

3 bears an initial, SC - is that you? - /ZM. So ZM is probably the person

4 who typed out the document. And on the second document we have ZM/ZM.

5 Does ZM ring a bell at all?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were a lot of people

7 over there in logistics, so I can't remember just now who that ZM might

8 be.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know. Right. Now, I

10 should also like to take note, in looking at the two documents, that there

11 is a fault with the letter O and we find the same defect in the typing of

12 both documents where the letter O is concerned. You have no explanation

13 for that. Fine.

14 Please continue, Counsel Nozica.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I asked you whether you ever attended a meeting of the Croatian

17 Defence Council in Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna held on the 29th of

18 April, 1992, together with the other commanders of the Municipal Staff of

19 HVO Mostar.

20 A. On the 29th of April --

21 Q. Mr. Cupina, I just asked you whether you were there or not. Were

22 you at the meeting or not? Don't go into explaining what happened on that

23 day. This is a very simple question.

24 A. Where? I don't know where you mean. What meeting? Where? At

25 what location?

1 Q. Were you at the meeting of commanders of units of the Municipal

2 Staff of Mostar, the HVO, on the 29th of April, 1992, and did you

3 otherwise attend these meetings frequently, and now you can't remember

4 that specific meeting?

5 A. Let me tell you this: We had contacts and cooperation over joint

6 organisation for defence, a joint defence against the Serbian and

7 Montenegrin aggressor. So we had permanent meetings, meetings from time

8 to time. Now, as to the 29th of April, I know that the Crisis Staff

9 handed over power and authority to the HVO.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'd like 2D 00026 document to be

11 shown to the witness now, please. It was tendered previously during

12 Mr. Smajkic's examination. Yes.

13 Q. Yes, let's see. The day the Crisis Staff handed over power and

14 authority, here you are attending a meeting of commanders of the units of

15 the Municipal Staff of Mostar. Judging by the names there, do you

16 remember having been at a meeting with them?

17 A. That is quite possible but it doesn't mean that we were

18 resubordinated to the HVO.

19 Q. But what did it mean?

20 A. We wanted to defend ourselves from the Serbian --

21 Q. Don't tell us what you wanted. What were the facts? Tell me the

22 facts. Where was the Independent Mostar Battalion? How did it function?

23 Was it independent? Did it function independently at that time or was it

24 within the frameworks of the HVO pursuant to a Crisis Staff decision?

25 State that loud and clear. Tell us loud and clear.

1 A. No. We were against that. Politics was in favour of that. We

2 said no, we have to maintain the symbols and emblems of Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 regardless of everything else that is done on a political level.

4 Q. Witness, I don't have time to go back to what you said, but half

5 an hour ago, asked by the Judge, you told us of the symbols you used and

6 you placed the chequerboard there, too, but the Judges will read the

7 transcript. They'll find it difficult to find their way, but I'm sure

8 they will find their way around it nonetheless.

9 Now, may we look at page 2 of that document, the very end of that

10 document, please. The end of the second page. Just the bottom of the

11 page and the last sentence. I'm sure you'll remember that sentence. In

12 the last one: "Golemac said that, 'Tipura was spending more time with the

13 vojvoda in Zeljusa than with us,' and Suad Cupina said that he would

14 replace Tipura." Do you remember that?

15 A. I don't know who this man Tipura is and what his position was.

16 That was Zeljusa, which is Bijelo Polje. There were rumours going around

17 that Tipura was sitting around in Bijelo Polje over there, but they were

18 rumours that were not borne out because it was the occupation zone,

19 occupied by the Serbian and Montegnegrin reservists.

20 Q. I asked you whether you actually said that. "And Cupina replied

21 --" it says: "And Suad Cupina replied that he would replace Tipura."

22 A. Well, perhaps -- I don't know what I said. Probably I said

23 something like that because there were rumours about Tipura staying over

24 there in the area of responsibility of the Serbian and Montenegrin

25 aggressor.

1 Q. All right, thank you. That will do. We'll move on. When did you

2 leave as the commander of the Independent Mostar Battalion and why? What

3 were the circumstances under which you left? What happened?

4 A. Since the Bilec Corps launched an aggressive drive on the left

5 bank of the river Neretva --

6 Q. I must interrupt you, but tell me what day you left. Let's take

7 this in order.

8 A. I think it was the 15th of May, 1992. We rallied in front of the

9 Dzemal Bijedic University building in the square there, we collected up

10 the people. Jasmin Jamugaric [phoen] was there, Arif Pasalic, who was my

11 advisor, was there, and then I said that I was leaving the battalion, and

12 this was published in the Mostar daily paper. You can see that in the

13 Official Gazette of the army.

14 Q. Because the front line towards the Serbs fell; is that right?

15 A. It wasn't that the front line fell. It was that the HVO did not

16 wish to support us and because at that time there was the Graz Agreement

17 according to which the line moved just because of the agreement. So we

18 didn't receive the necessary aid and assistance. And to make that clear,

19 there are statements on the part of the commander of the Bjelovar

20 Independent Company, which I have in my own statement, to the extent to

21 which the HVO betrayed the Independent Battalion.

22 Q. Mr. Cupina, you supplied the Prosecution with the documents. You

23 gave them other people's documents but not your own except for one. But

24 I'd like now to have in e-court Prosecution Exhibit which was put forward

25 but not used, under 01530, Prosecution Exhibit, and that particular

1 exhibit now has our own number 2D 00077.

2 No, that doesn't seem to be the right document. This is the

3 Prosecutor's document 01530. P 01530. That's not the right document.

4 It's not the one we can see on our screens. There seems to be some

5 mix-up, but could you find P 01530 now, please. Thank you. Can we put it

6 right side up?

7 Would you take a look at the document, please, Witness.

8 A. You can just go ahead, Counsel.

9 Q. You can see the document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who is the author of the document and what is the date? Can you

12 tell the Court, please?

13 A. Why should I read that out? You can tell them. It's from your

14 archives. I don't know where you got the document from. How can you take

15 somebody's document from the encryption department?

16 Q. The Prosecution provided me with the document, so you can ask the

17 Prosecution where they got the document from. The encryption, I assume,

18 means that you didn't see it before, but can you just tell me what the

19 date is on the document?

20 A. It is the Supreme Command Staff, to Sefer Halilovic in person, the

21 21st of February, 1993.

22 Q. And at the bottom of page 2, who signed the document? Can we see

23 the bottom of page 2, please? May we zoom in on that signature? The

24 signature on the send page, please. Zoom in on it.

25 Whose signature is that?

1 A. Arif Pasalic, it says.

2 Q. Fine. Let's go back to page 1 now, please. And you say that you

3 did not receive support. And Mr. Arif Pasalic says, under number 2, we

4 see it on our screens: "Departure to the staff of BH army headed by Suad

5 Cupina who was at one time commander of the Independent Mostar Battalion

6 in the period from the 24th of September, 1992 --" here we have an obvious

7 mistake as to the date. It should probably have been the 24th of April,

8 but let's let it stand, that's what it says in the document -- "until the

9 9th of May, 1992, and when they lost the left bank of the Neretva River in

10 the struggle against the Chetniks he experienced the breakdown of the

11 battalion. After that, on his own initiative, he went to the HVO command,

12 allegedly as coordinator where he begins closely to collaborate with the

13 SIS of the HVO together with --" and then it goes on to mention names.

14 So you say you've never seen this document before?

15 A. You have to know that Mr. Arif Pasalic, in the Mostar Jutro paper

16 from July and August, for a hundred days of war in Mostar, says that I'm

17 the most deserving man for the defence of Mostar. In August, you can see

18 according to the documents -- allow me to finish, please. I want to

19 finish. In the 100 days of the Mostar war --

20 Q. I'm not going to allow you to continue, Witness. I asked you a

21 question. I warned you of the rules of procedure here in the courtroom.

22 Would you please respect them. This is not a political forum. I'm asking

23 you what this document means, I'm not asking you about some daily paper

24 called Mostar Jutro. You say there is no encryption here, but is Mr. Arif

25 Pasalic not telling the truth here?

1 A. Mr. Arif Pasalic is contradictory, because in July and August he

2 is congratulating me and we're collaborating in May, 1993, as members of

3 the commission. I see no reason why he would have written anything like

4 this.

5 Q. All right. Now, let's take a look at the next document, and it is

6 2D 00064. Scroll down a bit, please. This is also a Prosecution document

7 provided to us by the Prosecutor. Can we see the top of the document,

8 please? Scroll up, please.

9 It says HVO, Independent Battalion of the defence of Mostar, 1st

10 Company. Mostar, the 13th of May, 1992. I know that this is not going to

11 be easy for you, but please, can you show the last page to the witness so

12 that he can see who signed this report.

13 This is the English version, but -- yes, please, because the

14 witness cannot speak English. Do you recognise this?

15 A. That is Kajtaz Mufid, the commander of the 1st Company, and to the

16 left the signature of Faruk Cupina, my brother.

17 Q. I don't know that.

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Please, tell me whether this gentleman, Kajtaz Mufid, was he in

20 the 1st Company of the Independent Battalion on the 13th of May?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then we should return to the first page to read some of his

23 assessments why the lines were lost. So this is an assessment of a person

24 who was a part of the Independent Defence Battalion of Mostar.

25 Can we go back to the first page? I should like to read some of

1 the sections to the witness, and I believe and I -- that the English

2 version has corresponding chapters, corresponding paragraphs.

3 Can we read this first part? "In the moment as of the forming of

4 the 1st Company until the 7th of May, 1992, in the zone of -- of

5 responsibility of Carina, there was absolute irresponsibility and

6 arbitrariness of members of the 1st Company --"

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot see the document. Sorry.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we have the Croatian or the

9 Bosnian version back, please, which we had on the screen a minute ago,

10 please. Zoom in on the first paragraph, please. Yes, and scroll down

11 some. A bit more, please. Scroll down a bit more. Scroll down a bit

12 more. And I'm going to read that part. So we'll have to repeat. No,

13 scroll up, please. Can we go up a bit, to the first paragraph.

14 Q. At the time as of the setting up of the 1st Company up to the 7th

15 of May, 1992, in the zone of responsibility, Carina, Zalik, Brankovac was

16 exhibited absolute lack of organisation, arbitrariness, irresponsibility

17 of members of the 1st Company, as well as of the command of the

18 Independent Battalion of the defence of Mostar. Platoon commanders failed

19 to draw up lists of personnel and lists of armaments and ammunition which

20 the members of the Independent Battalion of the 1st Company had at their

21 disposal, even though the commander Alan Zubic and his deputy, Major

22 Kajtaz Mufid -- speaking about this major, how come this gentleman was

23 conferred the rank of major and yesterday you told us there was no

24 ranking?

25 A. Most probably a JNA rank. It was probably a JNA rank.

1 Q. You were saying?

2 A. He was a reserve major of the former JNA, Mr. Mufid Kajtaz.

3 Q. So Major Mufid Kajtaz, on a number of occasions, insisted on the

4 discharge of such a mission. The lists which were submitted after

5 interventions did not reflect the actual state in the field given the fact

6 that the lists showed 375 members of the 1st Company, whereas there were

7 far less defenders of the north-eastern part of Mostar in the field.

8 Can we agree that this first paragraph does not at all refer to

9 anything the HVO failed to do but these were organisational omissions on

10 your part? Is this what it says?

11 A. No. No. Because in Zalik we had an independently acting company

12 which was resubordinated to Grubesic Zeljko in the Independent Battalion,

13 and they created the most of -- most chaos, and he hid in a cafe on the

14 left bank.

15 Q. It is all written here.

16 A. Excellent. Good.

17 Q. But it doesn't say just Zalik. It says the zone of responsibility

18 Carina, Zalik, Brankovac. So it is a zone of responsibility.

19 A. Right. Can I give you an answer to that?

20 Q. No, you cannot. Wait a minute. I have to read the next

21 paragraph. Towards the end of the page, please.

22 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness and counsel please pause

23 between question and answer.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

25 Q. The end of this page. "Individual groups, squads, during

1 operations literally left their positions without having fired a single

2 bullet, as was done by the group from -- as well by the group from Zalik

3 and Mali Kuk, due to which the zone of responsibility was reduced to just

4 the section below the arterial highway, a part of Pasjak, and the northern

5 part of Carina. Members of Zalika -- council of Zalika and Mali Kuk,

6 after two meetings with representatives of the command -- of the company

7 command promised to return and defend a part of the zone of responsibility

8 from the -- from the petrol station, from the direction of the petrol

9 station ..."

10 A. I cannot see the next page. Can we go to the next page?

11 Q. It is the next page. Can we see the next page, please? Page

12 number 2. Can we go to the next page? Page number 2, the top of page

13 number 2, so that -- for the benefit of the witness, please.

14 Yes. This is what I've already read, the very top line. Please

15 show page number 3 to the witness now. Are we having a technical problem

16 now? If it's easier for you, can we have it on the ELMO? There is no

17 need, we do have page number 3. Okay. The bottom of page number 3. Let

18 us follow the events that you say are -- for which you say the HVO is to

19 blame.

20 So: "According to the words of the deputy of the commander of the

21 1st Company, the platoon commanders were familiar with the reserve

22 position at the Neretva Villa part ... it was established by radio

23 communication that the commanders were not --" page 4, please, page 4,

24 please -- "were not familiarised with the reserve positions." Can we go

25 to page 4, please? "Reserve position so that the radio communication

1 operator actually indicated the reserve position to the commanders of the

2 Brankovac, Mazoljic, intervention platoons, which is Fejiceva Street ...

3 (except to Carina, where the radio communication was down)."

4 So we read this. Can we scroll down? Page number 4 to the last

5 paragraph, which starts with: "On the 8th of May, 1992, around 0030

6 hours, a group from the command of the Independent Battalion, headed by

7 Dzebo and Humo, after several abortive attempts, managed to set up a

8 bridgehead." After several abortive attempts, they managed to set up a

9 bridgehead. Have you read that? Do you read that?

10 Can we go on to page 5, please? So at the bottom of page 5,

11 please. Thank you. Thank you. We're moving faster now. The last

12 paragraph, please: "We should like to particularly stress that according

13 to the statements of Mirsad Cupina, Mehmet Hadziosmanovic, Rade Markovic,

14 and Resid Babovic, members of the 1st Company at the moment of withdrawal

15 stole and took away certain things from private houses and shops."

16 Is this what it says? Can we go on to page number 6. Page 6,

17 paragraph number 1. Here we have this sentence: "The conduct of certain

18 -- of individual members of the 1st Company, which was along the lines of

19 criminal conduct, was manifest and was also reflected when they took food

20 and medical material from the former military depot."

21 And then it goes on to say that the previously described behaviour

22 was not only characteristic of members of the 1st Company but also for a

23 large number of civilians who stole from the JNA centre, from the Beko,

24 Loris, Slovenijasport stores, and other places.

25 And finally can we see the last page to see whom Mr. Kajtaz

1 considers responsible for all this, for this kind of behaviour. So the

2 last paragraph.

3 "The command of the 1st Company insists that proceedings be

4 initiated against the responsible persons from the command of the

5 battalion from the command of the 4th Company (the commanders) Kemal

6 Kajic's group and individuals who committed criminal acts and to punish on

7 a most urgent basis members of the reserve militia, of the reserve police,

8 which police refused to put -- to put up -- to offer resistance to the

9 enemy while stealing at the same time. Unless this request is acted upon,

10 we consider defeat to be inevitable and that the civilian population of

11 all of Mostar will come to suffering."

12 Can you tell me what your comment is? This is an assessment of a

13 member your own Independent Battalion of Mostar about this event. It does

14 not speak about the HVO. This is a self-explanatory report if there ever

15 was one.

16 A. The HVO arrested Katica, who was our main radio operator, and they

17 broke his arm and took him to a prison in Split.

18 Q. Please.

19 A. No, but I have to tell you. This is the command of the battalion,

20 the main signaller of the battalion, had his arm broken.

21 Q. Mr. Cupina, you cannot tell me that. I'm asking you whether what

22 this report says is correct, that you left the line, that you didn't

23 organise a defence, that you were called to account, that individuals

24 engaged in looting and stealing. Is this true?

25 A. But I'm talking about specific persons, names and surnames. I

1 have to clarify for people who these specific peoples were and who these

2 particular members were. It is true that there were such practices,

3 but --

4 Q. Well, thank you. Thank you. We're moving on. You could have

5 instituted criminal proceedings.

6 A. Well, I did ask for that to be done but there was no prosecutor's

7 office there.

8 Q. You could have -- is this true?

9 A. But I have to tell you.

10 Q. I should like to remind you that your own brother --

11 A. Yes. This is true, but I have to explain how it is true.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Please could there be a pause between counsel

13 and witness, please.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

15 Q. If the Prosecutor asks you to explain, to do the extra explaining,

16 you will have an opportunity to do so.

17 So this report reflects what we have been talking about all this

18 time during the last two days. You were talking about betrayal by the

19 HVO, having been abandoned by the HVO. This report makes not a single

20 reference to the HVO.

21 A. But Kajic Kemal is the 2nd HVO battalion.

22 Q. You said that you became the commander of the military police.

23 You assumed a new duty on the 12th of June, 1990 --

24 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the counsel.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Did you ever leave Mostar whilst on this position?

2 A. At that time --

3 Q. While you were the commander of the military police until you

4 assumed that other office?

5 A. On the 9th of June I was at Igman. I was issued an order then

6 from President Izetbegovic, which I put in the book.

7 Q. Mr. Cupina, how long did you stay at Mount Igman?

8 A. I'm not sure how many days that was but I know that after that I

9 was issued an order which said that I was the commander of the military

10 police. On the 9th of June I was issued an order with Zejnil Delalic and

11 to organise the lifting of the blockade.

12 Q. We shall be coming to Zejnil Delalic.

13 A. I'm not quite sure.

14 Q. A response has not been recorded in the transcript. I asked

15 whether you -- I shall -- I shall repeat. Did you in that -- in this

16 period ever leave Mostar, and you said that that was on the 6th of June.

17 A. No. I said it was on the 9th of June when I was up there.

18 Q. Any other time?

19 A. I cannot remember. I went to -- out towards Sarajevo all the time

20 and I was in contact with the Ministry of the Interior.

21 JUDGE PRANDLER: [Previous translation continues] ... finish her

22 question and then please answer. And I do emphasise that you have to

23 answer to the question put by Ms. Nozica. Thank you.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So I insist on this question. I shall repeat it. All day

1 yesterday we have been discussing this, and even today, and, rather, you

2 failed to give me a concrete answer to a question referring to concrete

3 dates. How long did you stay at Igman in that period?

4 A. I cannot remember exactly.

5 Q. Was it 10.15 or what --

6 A. I cannot remember exactly.

7 Q. Where, then, did you go on from Igman?

8 A. I took this order to the staff of the -- to the headquarters of

9 Zejnil Delalic and Matos Alija [phoen]. I think that was in Buturovic

10 Polje.

11 Q. Where was Zejnil Delalic at the time?

12 A. In Konjic.

13 Q. Where is Buturovic Polje in regard to Konjic?

14 A. It is in the municipality of Konjic.

15 Q. So were you in Konjic or in Buturovic Polje?

16 A. I gave you this answer. In both. These are two different places

17 and I went to both.

18 Q. And from Buturovic Polje, where did you go? On the 9th of June,

19 1992, where did you go from Buturovic Polje?

20 A. I believe to see Jasmin Guska at the Ministry of the Interior in

21 Konjic. I'm not sure.

22 Q. Did you go with Mr. Sarlija? Did he ask you to go to Sarajevo

23 with him?

24 A. When was that?

25 Q. When you came from Buturovic Polje, did he ask you to go to

1 Sarajevo with him after that?

2 A. Mate Sarlija did not go to Sarajevo. We were charged by the

3 Ministry of the Interior to escort him to Sarajevo and he asked that and

4 we talk to the president for him to be given adequate powers.

5 Q. Okay. Let's move on. Yesterday you said that you had written a

6 book. I should like to point to some parts of your book and speak about

7 specific dates. It is called "The Betrayal of the Defence of

8 Herzegovina." The Prosecutor asked you a few questions about this book

9 and, while talking about this book yesterday, you said that the Congress

10 of Muslim Intellectuals published this book. Is it -- that is what the

11 record says. It is Bosnian or Bosniaks?

12 A. You know what the term is; it is Bosniak.

13 Q. But this is what the record says.

14 A. Well, perhaps it was a slip of the tongue.

15 Q. Okay. Before we move on to specific parts of your book, what was

16 the exact designation of your position that you were appointed to?

17 Yesterday you said that you were appointed the commander of the military

18 police.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'll read it out to you. You have the book and I think you will

21 believe me. I'm not going to tender this into evidence. I'll read it out

22 slowly, but I don't mind if you open up your book and follow the

23 paragraph. It's page 593, and it says something about the events on Igman

24 and my arrival -- your arrival at Igman. "I arrived at Igman at the

25 beginning of July, 1992, as coordinator cooperating with the army and the

1 MUP, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO and the HV, and on the

2 basis of an order of the Presidency from the Republic of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina dated the 10th of June, 1992, and on the basis of the order of

4 the chief of the Supreme Command Halilovic, number 2394/81, dated the 12th

5 of June, 1992."

6 Mr. Cupina, what is correct? Were you a coordinator working in

7 cooperation with the army and the MUP of the ABH and with the HVO and HV

8 or were you the commander of the military police on the basis of the same

9 decision that you mentioned yesterday?

10 A. It's true that I held that official position of the military

11 police commander, and that's it. That's how it was explained, because

12 Mr. Dajdza came from the Republic of Croatia as the representative of the

13 HVO.

14 Q. Are you saying that this is an editorial intervention? You didn't

15 write this yourself?

16 A. Well, I did write that myself, but there was proof-reading. Maybe

17 I omitted this, but I was involved in the cooperation of the HVO and the

18 BiH?

19 Q. Were you in fact, Mr. Cupina? This is not matter of

20 proof-reading, of an editorial intervention. You shouldn't think that the

21 people in the courtroom are not serious, take this very seriously. What

22 were you? In the book you say something about being the commander of the

23 military police. And we asked you for about an hour about what this role

24 was and you said that you were a coordinator for the cooperation of the BH

25 army and the HVO and HV. So what is now correct? What were you in fact?

1 A. I performed all the duties that I was ordered to perform by the

2 government and the leadership of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know how

3 this can be interpreted. Perhaps I made an error when I put this there,

4 but I carried out all those duties, and you can see that I was sent a fax

5 by Mr. Izetbegovic and I forwarded it to people in the field. I don't

6 know what this should be called. So now I've answered your question.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Cupina, what were you in fact? Can you please tell us what

10 position you held. If you cooperated with the HVO and the HV, then your

11 duties were different from those of the duties of the commander of the

12 military police. And yesterday you said that you provided information,

13 that you gathered information. What is correct? Both statements can't be

14 correct because those roles are very different.

15 A. I was never officially named a coordinator. I didn't have such

16 legitimacy, but I was officially of the command of the military police;

17 however these were patriotic duties that the MUP and the army assigned to

18 me and I carried them out correctly.

19 Q. Mr. Cupina, did you introduce yourself as a coordinator in this

20 manner between the two MUPs?

21 A. Well, we made attempts. Himo Selihovic too attempted to establish

22 a form of cooperation, but as the under-secretary of the Ministry of the

23 Interior, this was never successful. This cooperation was never

24 successful.

25 Q. Is this how you introduced yourself? Did you present yourself as

1 a coordinator?

2 A. No. Some people assigned this title to me.

3 Q. But you never told anyone that you had been assigned to such a

4 position. You have referred to an order. It was a very precise referral.

5 I've read out the passage from your book. Is this how you would introduce

6 yourself? Did you say that you were a coordinator?

7 A. No, I never particularly referred to that role because other

8 people would say that I was a coordinator. Arif Pasalic would say that I

9 was a coordinator; however, I worked for the Ministry of the Interior and

10 the army and I forwarded all the relevant reports. As to how that was

11 actually called, that position was actually called, I don't know. I was

12 an ordinary patriot.

13 Q. You said that on that day you conveyed a message from

14 Mr. Izetbegovic.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. To Zejnil Delalic. Who was he?

17 A. I don't know his exact position. Probably an important person in

18 that area, something like that, but I was told that Zejnil Delalic and

19 Dajdza were cooperating. I was a sort of courier.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you remember TG1?

23 Q. I know that he had some sort of duties to perform. He wasn't

24 important, but as to who that was, I don't know.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Could the usher please provide us

1 with document 2D 00061. Could we see that on the screen, please. Please

2 stop there.

3 Q. The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, TG-1 Konjic, date 21 October,

4 1992, it's addressed to Mr. Sefer. We both know that this concerns

5 Mr. Sefer Halilovic. Received on 840, 22nd of October, 1992. 21st of

6 October, 1992. Correction: 22nd of October, 1992. That's when it was

7 received. Let's have a look at the second page, please. Could we have a

8 look at the bottom, at the signature. You could enlarge it perhaps. Yes.

9 Now we can see it. And it says Commander Zejnil Delalic. Isn't that

10 correct? Could you please enlarge this? The copy is not very legible.

11 We have a better one that the interpreters have been provided with. Can

12 we have a look at the third and fourth paragraph from below so that the

13 witness can see it. Can we enlarge those paragraphs? The main

14 coordinator, we can see it here. Yes. That's fine. I'll read it out to

15 you now. I'll read out what Mr. Zejnil Delalic says on that day.

16 "The main coordinator on the other side of the MUP on the -- on

17 the stretch Mostar-Grude-Jablanica-Konjic is Suad Cupina who five days ago

18 was with Guska. He introduces himself as the head of the military police

19 from Mostar to Sarajevo, and he is supported by Kerim from Sarajevo."

20 The following paragraph: "I am personally familiar with him from

21 June, 1992, and he was the predecessor of Dajdza. And then on that

22 occasion I forbid -- forbade Cupina to move from Jablanica to Pazaric."

23 So the second paragraph, Mr. Cupina, refers to June, when you said

24 that you met Zejnil Delalic, and he considers you to be the main

25 coordinator for the other MUP from Grude, Mostar, and Jablanica, and he

1 believes that you introduce yourself with no basis as the head of the

2 military police. Can you comment on that?

3 A. Well, there's nothing for me to say. That's his opinion. There

4 are documents. You've seen that Dajdza was involved in the operation of

5 Sarajevo for the raising of the blockade of Sarajevo. This was Sefer

6 Halilovic who assigned the task to him. I didn't do anything without

7 consulting the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. You can see that in

8 the book. Dajdza was issued with an order by Sefer Halilovic.

9 Q. I don't have of time, so let's be brief.

10 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, perhaps it's a translation

11 problem, but counsel on page 76, at line 12, the question was Grude,

12 Mostar, and Jablanica and he believes that you introduce yourself with no

13 basis as the head of the military police. And I'm looking at at least

14 what the English translation of the document says. It talks about in fact

15 Mr. Cupina introducing himself. I don't see anything in that document

16 where he says he introduces himself with no basis for doing so. Perhaps

17 counsel can indicate where she finds that language, "with no basis."

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] In this document I can see that

19 Zejnil Delalic believes the witness is the coordinator for the other MUP,

20 and he says he introduces himself as the chief, the head of the military

21 police. The purpose of the document is to clarify the actual role of this

22 witness, and this document shows the attitude of his comrades in arms

23 towards him and the role that he had.

24 Q. Has this been clarified?

25 A. No.

1 Q. In my opinion, it has been clarified. I have no other questions

2 about this. You've answered the question.

3 A. But there is the document here that concerns the military police

4 commander.

5 Q. Very well. There's your book, too, in which you say that you were

6 a coordinator; is that correct? We have contradictory information that we

7 have received from you. Let's move on, please.

8 You said a while ago that on a number of occasions, from 1992

9 onwards, you went to Sarajevo from Mostar; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How did you travel? Was it difficult, dramatic? Did it take a

12 long time? Did you have to use byroads?

13 A. Well, of course it was difficult.

14 Q. Did such trips take a long time?

15 A. Well, naturally. It was difficult, and I was supported by the

16 Ministry of the Interior, by Jasmin Guska.

17 Q. And the command of the 1st Tactical Group; is that correct?

18 A. Pardon?

19 Q. And Mr. Zejnil Delalic, who forbade you to move around freely?

20 A. That's not correct.

21 Q. Please. We've seen what Mr. Zejnil Delalic says, and he says that

22 on the 9th, 10th -- you were -- on the 9th of October you were in Igman,

23 you went to Konjic. I then asked you, did you go to Sarajevo with Dajdza?

24 A. Dajdza never entered Sarajevo during that period of time, my dear

25 lady, as far as I can remember.

1 Q. Well, then you're deceiving the public who reads your book. I'll

2 read out the passage.

3 A. No.

4 Q. I'll read out the passage from your book. Page 599.

5 A. I don't now which page it is.

6 Q. If you say it's not correct, tell me. I'll provide you with a

7 copy of the book. I see that the Prosecution also has a copy.

8 A. It won't be necessary.

9 Q. The same visit to Igman is concerned, the one we mentioned that

10 took place in June, 1992, and you say the following: "Mate Sarlija and

11 Dajdza insisted that I go to Buturovic Polje with him, to Igman, and

12 Sarajevo so that with my assistance he could establish contact with the

13 people who had real power in Sarajevo. It was my duty to carry out his

14 request because the leadership of Bosnia and Herzegovina insisted on this

15 being done."

16 What is correct then; what you have stated in the book or what you

17 have said today?

18 A. Well, look, you're reading this within its context. He didn't go

19 to Sarajevo to raise the blockade of Sarajevo, but the Ministry of

20 Interior, Minister Alija Delimustafic, established contact with Dajdza,

21 and then we were to escort him to help Bosnia and Herzegovina raise the

22 blockade.

23 Q. Mr. Cupina, I'm not taking this out of context. I'm reading what

24 you actually wrote. The next sentence concerns something else because in

25 the book, and that was the case yesterday, you don't state anything very

1 precisely, and in the book we can't find any dates either, so it's very

2 difficult to know exactly where you were, when you were, and what you were

3 involved in. But if you're telling me that I'm taking this out of

4 context, well, the following sentence is the role that Mate Sarlija,

5 Dajdza had in the defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina towards

6 the end of 1991 and in 1992 was to provide patriots of the Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina with arms, and then you don't mention anything about

8 the fact that it was your duty to go to Sarajevo with him. So you're

9 saying that you didn't go to Sarajevo.

10 A. Not directly to Sarajevo, no. Not on that occasion. But in 1991

11 we escorted him to Sarajevo as ordered by Alija Delimustafic to Sarajevo.

12 Q. In 1991 when? I didn't hear when. It says 1991 in the

13 transcript.

14 A. I think it was in 1991 or 1992. I assume it would be in 1992. I

15 think we escorted him to Sarajevo in 1992.

16 Q. When, at what time?

17 A. I don't know. I can't remember. It was from the direction of

18 Visici and Sarajevo by car. I think there was a big meeting in Zetra, a

19 big Assembly, a big gathering and a big rally. That's what I remember.

20 Q. When did you then return? We're talking about the month of June.

21 How long did you remain in that entire area? Did you stay there until the

22 end of June, as you say in your book on page 485 when you say that -- I'll

23 read it out. You say that you stayed then until the end of June. It's on

24 page 485. Is that correct? Can that be correct?

25 A. Yes, probably.

1 Q. So how did you then meet on the 20th of June in Grude with

2 Mr. Boban?

3 A. Pardon?

4 Q. It's very clear. If you were on Igman, Konjic, et cetera, then

5 how is it possible for you to be in Grude on the 20th of June for a

6 meeting with Mr. Boban?

7 A. I was at that meeting. The Prosecution can have a look at the

8 transcripts. I was in this hotel in Grude, and it's got microphones in

9 the hotel.

10 Q. Well, perhaps you were there. Perhaps the Prosecution can have a

11 look at such documents, but I don't know what's funny. Nothing is funny

12 here. I'm asking you how it was possible for you to be in both Grude and

13 Igman at the same time. Could you please answer that question.

14 A. I wasn't there at the same time. I was constantly on the move,

15 carrying out the tasks that I'd been assigned by the leadership of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. If the Chamber allows me to do this, I'd like to remind the

18 witness that he has taken the solemn declaration but he has provided

19 specific answers to my two questions. He said that he returned from that

20 area which is to the north of Grude and he did that towards the end month,

21 and now or, rather, yesterday he said that on the 20th of June, 1992, he

22 had a meeting with Mate Boban in Grude. It's quite obvious that the

23 witness is not telling the truth either in first case or in the second

24 case.

25 A. The documents show what the truth is.

1 Q. Which documents, sir?

2 A. The document dated the 9th of June. The facts of the 9th of June

3 from Mr. Izetbegovic and the facts on the 12th of June in which I'm

4 appointed as commander of the military police, and the documents from the

5 month of June that I have mentioned.

6 Q. I'm not going to insist on this. You've said that the documents

7 show the truth. In that case, that means that you're not telling the

8 truth.

9 A. I'm telling the truth.

10 Q. Very well.

11 A. I don't know how you're interpreting me, though.

12 Q. My interpretation is not a problem. How the Chamber interprets

13 you is the problem. When were you wounded?

14 A. I think it was at the beginning of July when I was in a building,

15 and I have already explained this in publications.

16 Q. Tell me, which year was this in?

17 A. It was in 1992. I was wounded in the knee, under the knee.

18 Q. Where was your family at the time?

19 A. It was in Basko Polje. They were refugees.

20 Q. Did you go to Basko Polje during that period of time?

21 A. I was wounded, and I went down there.

22 Q. Where is Basko Polje? It's understandable for me, but where is

23 it?

24 A. In Croatia.

25 Q. It's in Croatia. How often did you go to Basko Polje?

1 A. At the time, not very often, because I was in the hospital for a

2 while and then I was at home. I can't exactly remember the details.

3 Q. So I'm asking you about 1992. For how long -- since how long had

4 your family been in Basko Polje?

5 A. They were taken there when the corps started -- I think it was

6 April, 1992.

7 Q. They went to Croatia in April, 1992. As of April, 1992, how

8 frequently did you visit your family in Basko Polje, and right up to

9 September, 1993? That's when you said you went to Sarajevo with your

10 family. How often were you in Basko Polje? On one occasion, five

11 occasions, 15 occasions?

12 A. In October, 1992, I think the Dajdza camp at Basko Polje was

13 dismantled. I don't know when my family left the area, but as far as I'm

14 concerned, I can't remember exactly how often I went there.

15 Q. Tell me, was it five times, ten times? You are to answer my

16 question.

17 A. I don't know. In April and May, I didn't go there at all, nor did

18 I go there in June while they were there.

19 Q. You have -- you haven't answered any of my questions.

20 A. I went there very rarely, only when it was absolutely necessary

21 for me to go there for work.

22 Q. What sort of work did you have in Basko Polje?

23 A. Basko Polje was the first logistics base of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina. That was the first one.

25 Q. What were you doing at that base in that period? What did you do

1 there?

2 A. That was practically a base for humanitarian and other sorts of

3 relief for Bosnia and Herzegovina to be transported to other parts of

4 Herzegovina.

5 Q. What was your role in that period in -- when you had no connection

6 with such transports?

7 A. What period are you talking about?

8 Q. What period are you talking about?

9 A. I'm talking about May. You just don't want to understand me.

10 Q. Well, will you please explain.

11 A. Let me tell you. Sometime about -- well, I'm not sure of the

12 date. It was a logistics base. Other people were working there. I just

13 came and passed through, through this logistical base. They use MTS for

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Independent Battalion because we received

15 outside assistance.

16 Q. Meaning you have a base in Croatia where you receive assistance,

17 materiel and technical equipment, et cetera, for Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 Did I get it right?

19 A. Yes, because we received assistance from the world, but the HVO

20 wrested it away from us, took it. Very little actually reached us.

21 Q. Mr. Cupina, I'm not asking you what happened to the transports.

22 Did you have a base in Croatia or did you not?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please don't overlap, but it's

24 time to have break. It's 12.35, and we will resume at 2.00 p.m.

25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Counsel Nozica, if

3 you have some questions to ask.

4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I should

5 just like to inform you that I shall use up part of the time remaining

6 until the next break and then Mr. Ibrisimovic will follow, and we shall

7 make use of the time in the way you have instructed us.

8 Q. Mr. Cupina, on page 82, in connection with your family in Basko

9 Polje, it is reported that they were at the Dajdza camp. Would you please

10 explain what kind of accommodation that was. Was it a camp in the sense

11 of a real camp, or a hotel? What was it?

12 A. In April, 1992, it was called the Basko Polje camp. It was a

13 military summer vacation resort, and there were accommodated persons from

14 Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 Q. Thank you very much. That will do. Can we now turn to another

16 topic that you discussed at some length with the Prosecutor yesterday.

17 This is the Prosecutor's exhibit, and can we have it on e-court, please,

18 number 01376. This is a report which was written, and you know what it is

19 about, of Maslo Jahic and Campara from February, 1993.

20 Yesterday -- yes, now we can see it on the screen. Can we see the

21 last page to see the date of this document so that we can see that it was

22 February, 1993.

23 A. I did not understand you.

24 Q. I just wanted us to verify that it was indeed February, 1993. Was

25 it not?

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 Q. When we talked about this document, you said that this document

3 and some other documents were sent by you to Mr. Halilagic.

4 A. Yes, to Mr. Jusuf Halilagic, and I personally brought complete

5 documentation on the 14th of February, 1993, to the leadership and the

6 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the Main Staff of the BH, where

7 we were given instructions as to how to go about further constructing our

8 state.

9 Q. Thank you. Thank you. That will do. Can we see on e-court

10 2D 0077 now, please. Can we see -- the source is the judicial database,

11 as we can see on the top here. We can see it says Republic of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the command of the 3rd Corps, the legal sector,

13 Zenica, the 3rd of April, 1993.

14 Can we take a look at the second page, please. Yes. On the top

15 of the second page, the second paragraph says: "The task is to be carried

16 out by Jusuf Halilagic. That's under point number 4. First of all, it

17 says, "We should prepare the lectures for the monthly plan of the VSO.

18 The task is to be carried out by Halilagic Jusuf." It emanates from this

19 document that on the 3rd of April, 1994 [as interpreted], Mr. Jusuf

20 Halilagic was with the legal department of the command of the 4th Corps

21 [as interpreted].

22 A. I don't know what his position was at that time. I know that they

23 said that he was their colleague from the Ministry of Justice.

24 Q. Can we see the next document? You said decidedly yesterday what

25 his position had been. Let me just remind you.

1 A. No, but I said before the war he was in the Ministry of Justice in

2 the legal and administrative department. I said that -- that but not in

3 reference to his actual function in the 4th Corps.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Cupina. Mr. Cupina, you must

5 answer what the lawyer asks you, and you do not have the right to say more

6 than that. To that extent here, freedom of speech is restricted, but it

7 is a legitimate limitation, and I'm afraid we are losing an awful lot of

8 time, and people are getting rightly impatient if you do not comply with

9 these rules. Everyone here must comply with the rules. Please keep this

10 in mind.

11 You may continue, Counsel.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Q. Document 2D 00078, is that this document? I'm sorry, I can't see

14 the number. No, it is not. I can see by the ERN number that it is not.

15 So the source of the document is the same. The date is the 24th

16 of April, 1993.

17 Please can we see the second page. Can you scroll down a bit to

18 number 5, to point number 5.

19 Yes. While we still have this part of the transcript on the

20 screen, it is -- there is a mistake in 85. It says 1994, in line 85. And

21 the actual year should be 1993, and it refers to the document that we saw

22 a while ago.

23 So I have this document. Let me repeat for the record: 24th of

24 April, 1993, item 5. There are more items in it, of course, but I shall

25 refer to this particular one, which says, "Participation in the

1 negotiating team in Busovaca and Vitez."

2 Can you see who is in charge of that particular task? It is again

3 Jusuf Halilagic.

4 And another correction, page 85, line 25. The -- it should read

5 the 3rd Corps, not the 4th Corps, because it was the 3rd Corps.

6 So in association in respect of these documents, we can see that

7 Jusuf Halilagic obviously was a member of the 3rd Corps. I shall read

8 this. On page 53 of yesterday's transcript, you said that when you were

9 sending these documents to Mr. Halilagic that he was the republican

10 administrative inspector and that before the war he had been in Zenica.

11 So you actually said that you sent these reports to him as a state

12 institution, not as a soldier of the 3rd Corps.

13 Let us move on to the next subject, commission for exchanges.

14 Yesterday, you said that the commission for exchange was located in Titova

15 Street, the one that you worked -- where you worked in May, 1993; right?

16 MR. SCOTT: Apologise for interrupting, but there was never a

17 question. We have lines and lines of text and reading, but the witness

18 was never even asked a question. I don't think that's a proper question

19 because there was no question.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Counsel Nozica. What is

21 the question that you wish to ask the witness in the extent to which the

22 document shows that the document is addressed to -- was from the 3rd

23 Corps, and as we know, the 3rd Corps was in Zenica.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. We should then ask the witness to whom did he send this document?

1 Did he send it to the 3rd Corps, to Mr. Halilagic as an administrative

2 inspector, or to Mr. Halilagic as the legal officer of the 3rd Corps?

3 A. We sent this to Mr. Jusuf Halilagic as a pre-war republican

4 inspector who worked with Sead Maslo, and he was in charge of transmitting

5 it further to Sarajevo because the communications were of poor quality.

6 They were down.

7 Q. Mr. Cupina, yesterday you said and you repeated today that some of

8 the documents were taken by you to Sarajevo and some of it you sent to

9 Mr. Halilagic.

10 A. Exactly.

11 Q. But now you're saying that you sent it to Halilagic for him to

12 take it to Sarajevo. Is there any elementary logic in that?

13 A. Yes, because the city of Mostar is -- has a code 058, which is a

14 Croatian telephone code, and the city of Mostar had no connections with

15 anybody.

16 Q. Thank you. Thank you. That is an explanation. That is quite

17 okay.

18 And the Council for Exchanges -- Commission for Exchange was in

19 what street?

20 A. You mean my commission?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. In Marsala Tito Street, across from the social accounting service.

23 Q. What was in that social accounting service building when you

24 worked there?

25 A. No, it was across from that building.

1 Q. Yes, but what was in that building?

2 A. The command of the Mostar Brigade.

3 Q. It wasn't a prison?

4 A. No, no, never.

5 Q. It was not a prison in which Croats were detained?

6 A. No. No. No.

7 Q. Was the prison in which Croats were detained in 1993, was it in

8 the 4th elementary school in Mostar?

9 A. In the 4th elementary, what year?

10 Q. I'm referring to the period of conflict with the Croats.

11 A. What year? What date, what year?

12 Q. You're not asking the questions here, I am.

13 A. As far as I know, there were people who were captured after the

14 North Camp action, after the 30th of June, 1993. There were some

15 prisoners in the -- captured soldiers in the basement of the 4th

16 elementary school, as far as I know.

17 Q. Were you at that time the president of the Commission for

18 Exchange?

19 A. I told you, legally and formally, after this report, I ceased

20 being anything, but I was still there, but I did not hold that position

21 because of the failure of the all for all exchanges.

22 Q. Tell me, the elementary school in Bijelo Polje, was there a prison

23 with Croatians imprisoned in it?

24 A. I don't know that. I was not in charge of such duties then.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have to intervene here. You

1 seem to be playing with words. You've just said that you were no longer

2 in charge of the Commission for Exchange, no longer president, because the

3 rule all for all was not being applied, and I'd like to remind you that we

4 saw a document yesterday in which there were two categories of persons.

5 The first category were civilians who were supposed to be released

6 straight away, and prisoners of war who, within the appropriate procedure,

7 were also supposed to be exchanged. So the rule all for all was not being

8 applied to civilians who were supposed to be exchanged immediately.

9 So can we have an explanation? What would you say by way of an

10 explanation?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I discharged duties in the period in

12 which I submitted the report. After that, I had no powers whatsoever,

13 either in respect of the commission or anything else. Once that was

14 finished, I drew up the report reporting on the period in which I had been

15 in charge, and I did nothing after that. Other people did. Because after

16 the 30th, I was no longer officially the president of the commission. I

17 didn't have any data on my -- at my disposal after that date.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Cupina, do you know that criminal proceedings have been

20 instituted against persons in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who held

21 civilians in these two prisons, the 4th elementary school and the Bijelo

22 Polje elementary school, for the commission of war crimes? Do you know

23 that criminal proceedings had been in course and that some people have

24 been indeed convicted?

25 A. I had read about it in the press.

1 Q. Well, then tell me, how could you have said yesterday that the

2 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina didn't have any prisons at all, that those

3 who were exchanged from among HVO members actually freely walked around

4 the eastern part of Mostar? What is true?

5 A. I'm speaking about --

6 Q. But now you are confirming that they are two -- there were two

7 prisons. Yesterday, you claimed that there hadn't been a single one. And

8 wait before you reply, please. Pause. What is true?

9 A. I'm telling you that during my period there had been none. That

10 was after the 30th of June, after the attack on Bijelo Polje; i.e., North

11 Camp. I decidedly claim that whilst I was there, there were no prisons.

12 After that date, I cannot say.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Cupina, yesterday you said that in the part of Mostar

14 controlled by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina there were no prisons.

15 You did not limit yourself in terms of any period.

16 Second, please be so kind as to tell me, did you still hold the

17 function of the commander of the military police? Were you under the

18 obligation as the holder of that office to possibly take action of those

19 who had committed war crimes within the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. I cannot say about any other periods. I can only talk about my

21 period. As for the function, the office of commander of military police,

22 it was practically fictitious. I was in no position to order anybody

23 anything or to undertake any action in respect of the military. I could

24 only do as instructed by the state leadership. But as regards camps and

25 prosecutions and the imprisonment of soldiers, I had no powers whatsoever.

1 Q. Page 45, line 8. Today you said that you were in the commission

2 until the 8th of July. Now you are reducing this period. Can we --

3 A. No, no, no, no.

4 Q. Wait a bit, please. Until what time did you hold that duty?

5 A. Until the report. Until I drew up the report. After the report,

6 nobody asked me anything. I was not in charge, and I didn't do any work

7 in the commission at all. After that, I was appointed the director of

8 Energopetrol.

9 Q. As I said, on page 45, in line 6, you say, "I was in the

10 commission -- on the commission until the 7th of July."

11 A. That is exactly what I said. May I? But I was not in charge. I

12 didn't have any say really after the all for all exchanges.

13 Q. You made the reply to all other questions as if you had indeed

14 been in charge and not as in -- in relation to this particular question.

15 Let's go back to your book now. In your book you give us some

16 biographical data at the end, some of your CV, and you said that you had

17 an MA from the faculty of physical culture in 2004; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you gave your statement to the Prosecutor on the 21st of

20 January, 2004, just three months prior to that, you said that you were

21 going to complete the faculty for physical culture, graduate from it.

22 Now, how can you graduate and receive an MA within the space of four

23 months? Just tell me.

24 A. I received my MA at the faculty for sport because I was a very

25 good sportsman and because I graduated from the higher school for

1 trainers, and they allowed me to work on my MA thesis and received an MA

2 on the basis of my results in sports. That was the procedure at the

3 university in Sarajevo and the faculty for physical training, and you can

4 check that in the archives.

5 Q. I'm sure you're very well connected, and I'll check that out.

6 You're a delegate in the cantonal Assembly, and you belong to the

7 strongest party, the SDA, and now you're a candidate for the House of

8 Representatives of the parliament, so I am sure you could get that done,

9 but answer me this: You want to say that you received your MA on the

10 basis of having graduated from a higher school?

11 A. No, no. You haven't read my biography properly. I graduated from

12 the faculty of economics. I completed the school for trainers, and I was

13 one of the most successful trainers in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And pursuant

14 to the law governing higher education and sports, for the sports

15 disciplines, I went through all the procedure. That has nothing to do

16 with my political involvement. Don't mix the two together.

17 Q. Is it true that you graduated and received an MA within the space

18 of three months?

19 A. That's not true, no. That's just not true. You have the

20 documents.

21 JUDGE PRANDLER: I'm waiting for the -- yes. Thank you. The

22 French translation just ended, so now I would like to tell you that again

23 you are carried on by your, I would say, desire to ask and to answer

24 immediately. Please wait and one of you actually finishes what you would

25 like to ask and then the -- I would like to ask Mr. Cupina again, as it

1 was done also by Judge Trechsel, that he should listen carefully to what

2 Ms. Nozica is saying, and after a certain moment of waiting, then you have

3 to answer to the question. I would be very grateful to both of you.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. To follow on along the

6 lines of what my colleague has just said, I would like to tell you that

7 we're in fact working in three languages. We're listening to you in your

8 language, we're looking at the transcript in English, and those following

9 the French are listening to the French interpretation. That is why it

10 would be useful to make pauses between question and answer.

11 Having said that, please continue, Counsel Nozica.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now, you made a statement, and we were provided that statement by

14 the OTP on the 20th of January, 2004. In point 5 of that statement, you

15 say that: "I am shortly due to graduate from the faculty of physical

16 culture in Sarajevo. In my book, with the notes on the author, it says

17 Master of Science in the realm of physical culture from the 15th of April,

18 2000." Which of those two pieces of information are correct and which are

19 not, because you provided them both.

20 A. I think that the Prosecutor translated that -- had that translated

21 incorrectly, because I am MA. I have a Masters Degree in sports and

22 physical education from the university in Sarajevo, and you can check that

23 out there at the faculty for sport and physical culture, because the

24 university is the legal entity, if you understand.

25 Q. I don't understand.

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You are not answering the question which was a

2 very simple question. Did you get that MA in 2000 or in 2004? And how is

3 the difference to be explained?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I became -- I received a master's

5 degree in 2004. I have the master's degree, so I don't know what else.

6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. And when did you graduate from the university? When you did you

8 complete your faculty?

9 A. Which one?

10 Q. Well, for physical culture.

11 A. I didn't graduate from faculty of physical culture. I graduated

12 from the higher school for training and physical culture.

13 Q. Well, let's start off with the mistakes in your CV in your book.

14 There was great commotion caused by your book in the public because you

15 described events that you have partially spoken about today as well.

16 I'm going to show you some of the reactions in the media to your

17 book and then you can comment. And the reactions come from individuals

18 who were your co-fighters, co-combatants in Mostar.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

20 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I think before we go on, I

21 think we need to clarify this issue about the CV because it's not at all

22 clear to me that there's the dilemma that counsel suggests. I'm looking

23 at the back of his book and I'll be the first to admit I don't read B/C/S,

24 but I can see enough to see dates, and the date that I see in the book in

25 terms of a master's degree is in fact the 14th -- the 15th of April, 2004.

1 Now, that's exactly what he said, consistent with what he has said before,

2 and consistent with his statement in -- in January, 2004, he says, "I am

3 about to receive ..." January. He receives it in April. Now, I think,

4 with all respect to counsel, I think that's a fundamental

5 mischaracterisation of the record. And if you're going to confront the

6 witness with a statement, the prior statement should be put in front of

7 the witness.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I can sort the dilemma out.

9 Mr. Scott, I'm speaking about the educational system in

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the statement in Bosnian, it says, "I am shortly

11 due to graduate from the faculty of physical culture." Not to receive a

12 master's degree but graduate. And in the book it says that the gentleman

13 has received a master's -- received a master's degree on the 18th of

14 April, 2005. Is that a clear distinction for my colleagues following in

15 English? So he graduated and received a master's degree --

16 MR. SCOTT: I apologise for interrupting. I think it is an

17 important point for accuracy's sake. At least in the English version, and

18 I'll be -- whatever the translators say, the B/C/S, I'll certainly be

19 governed by that. The English statement says, and I'm quoting paragraph 5

20 of the statement from 2004: "I am now about to receive a master's degree

21 from the faculty of physical culture in Sarajevo." Now, if someone makes

22 that statement in January of 2004, says, "I am about to receive a master's

23 degree," and in fact receives a master's degree in April, some weeks

24 later, I don't see -- sorry, I don't see the dilemma. I would not make a

25 big point of it myself, except that counsel's making a big point of it.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Now, the degree that you

2 had, master's degree, did you get it in 2004 or 2005? Because it would

3 appear that in the book it says that you received your master's degree in

4 2005. So was it 2004 or 2005 when you received your master's degree?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't got my degree here,

6 but as it says in the book, that's when I got it. I'll -- I can let you

7 have a look at it.

8 MR. SCOTT: Why don't we put the book on the ELMO and let the

9 interpreters tell us what it says. There won't be any mystery left.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can we ask the witness, with your

11 permission, when he graduated. He hasn't given an answer to that

12 question. If it is an error in the translation. He says he received a

13 master's degree in April, but when did he graduate from that faculty?

14 Q. Will you answer that, please?

15 A. Madam, I can't remember the exact date now.

16 Q. What year?

17 A. Let me finish. I think that I completed the higher school for

18 trainers in 1999 and received a master's degree in 2004, but I'm a

19 graduated economist. I graduated from the faculty of economics. I have

20 all those diplomas.

21 Q. Yes, I know you do, but let's do away with our dilemmas. You

22 became -- you received a master's degree on the basis of the higher school

23 for trainers.

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Let's move on. Let's move on. So you said there were -- we were

1 saying that there was a great -- there were a great number of reactions to

2 the book. Can we have 2D 00071 exhibit placed on e-court, please.

3 This is Slobodna Bosna, the paper Slobodna Bosna. I have the text

4 but do you agree, have you seen this text, Mr. Cupina?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. May we see page 2 now, please. This is your picture, is it not,

7 holding the book? I'm going to read the text. Can we scroll down a bit.

8 Down on the page, please, so that we can see the text. And this is what

9 it says here. I'm just going to read that part. Their Honours have the

10 whole article translated.

11 "The book 'Betrayal and Defence of Herzegovina,' which was

12 published a few months ago by Suad Cupina, a former sportsman, a wartime

13 Mostar fighter, and prospective SDA Sarajevo politician, came across great

14 reactions in Mostar where, during the last weekend and during the

15 promotion of Cupina's book, the author escaped a lynching by -- of his

16 head, because he was accused by his fellow citizens of being a liar, a

17 forger, and a traitor."

18 May I now have another exhibit, 2D 00076 on the e-court, please.

19 MR. SCOTT: Again, Your Honour, I'm sorry, but is there a

20 question? I mean, it seems like we're just reading whatever counsel wants

21 to read into the record, but no question is put to the witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you going to show a number

23 of articles and then ask him a general question?

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes. Quite correct, Your Honour.

25 That's right. That is precisely what I was going to do. I said I was

1 going to show a number of articles and then go on to ask my question.

2 Q. This here is an article which was published in Dani. Have you

3 seen this article before? It is called Nasi Dani, the paper. I'm going

4 to read this portion out. "Hujka sent him away. It happened on the 11th

5 of May, 1992. On at that day, Suad Cupina was expelled by the late Hujka

6 from the command, and Arif Pasalic was asked to stand at the head of the

7 defence. Had that not been the case, probably none of us today would be

8 in Mostar, says Fola." That's one of your co-fighters. "He's categoric.

9 Suad Cupina was never seen in the battles, but he was seen in a jeep with

10 Mate Sarlija Dajdza."

11 Now the next exhibit, 2D 00073 on e-court, please.

12 This is your disclaimer in the Avaz journal of the 5th of July,

13 2006. Otherwise, you had similar articles of similar content, and they

14 came out as a series. They were all similar in character.

15 I would like to point out the portion where you say that, "I

16 published the book six months ago, and I'm ready -- and I'm getting ready

17 to go to The Hague to be a Prosecution witness in the Prlic et al. case,

18 and somebody wants to discredit me. These are real underhand games that

19 Mostar plays in this story, stresses Cupina."

20 And finally, Exhibit 2D 00072 on e-court, please. Can we have it

21 right side up? Thank you.

22 Here we have from the Dnevni Avaz paper. It is on two pages. It

23 was published on the 7th of July, 2006, after your disclaimer and your

24 statement that you were going to The Hague to testify. Here we have the

25 stamps of four combatant organisations. Could you tell us whether you

1 belong to any one of these combatant organisations? All I'm asking you is

2 that: Do you belong to any one of those?

3 A. No, I do not belong to any one of those because I live and work in

4 Sarajevo.

5 Q. Did you ever belong to any one of these organisations?

6 A. In Mostar, I have been living there since 1993, and I am president

7 of the Commission for Combatant Questions of the canton of Sarajevo.

8 Q. All right. So these were co-combatants who wrote this from

9 combatant organisations in Mostar. I'm going to read the text.

10 A. That's a paid advertisement. That's a paid ad.

11 Q. You can comment. I want to read something out and then you can

12 tell us. "With respect to the scandalous book by author Suad Cupina,

13 Betrayal and Defence of Mostar, on the premises of the United Organisation

14 of Combatants of the City of Mostar, on the 3rd of June, 2006, beginning

15 at 2000 hours, a meeting was held of the representatives of combatant

16 organisations as well as prominent commanders of the Golden Lilies,

17 combatants and wartime activists.

18 "At the meeting the following were present: President and

19 secretary of JOB Mostar, president and secretary of the Association of

20 Golden Lilies, the president and secretary of the Association of War

21 Invalids, president and secretary of the Association of the Families of

22 Sehids and Fallen Fighters of Mostar.

23 "In addition to authorised representatives of the associations,

24 also present were," and a number of names were listed. I'm not going to

25 read them all. You can read them for yourself. And then the following

1 observation is made:

2 "Analysing the inappropriate statements, half-truths, and untruths

3 that were written in the first-person singular with the sole purpose of

4 not granting personal affirmation, the following conclusion was

5 unanimously adopted: The combatants of the city of Mostar distance

6 themselves from the aforementioned book, especially with regard to the

7 section which relates to the personal involvement of the author and his

8 satellites.

9 "The author's attempts are futile, using a dirty media campaign to

10 have a place in the history of Mostar, which he does not deserve, all for

11 personal, family, and party promotion.

12 "In this connection the combatants and Association of Combatants

13 of the town of Mostar decided in future to ignore the lies put out by Suad

14 Cupina, because it is only our participation in any polemics give Cupina a

15 position which he does not deserve."

16 So please, tell me, are there four stamps of the four

17 organisations that I mentioned here? Do you doubt that these individuals

18 actually wrote this, the representatives of these organisations which are

19 ABiH organisations? And could you tell me, is it true that there was a

20 media campaign which was almost unanimous and your book was criticised as

21 a book that is full of falsehoods with regard to the events that you

22 describe; that you didn't participate in those events, you only had

23 hearsay knowledge about those events, and everything was done for you to

24 promote yourself. And I'd like to add this was done at the moment when

25 you were a candidate for the member of the House of Representatives of the

1 parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And as a result, your statement that

2 you would be testifying in The Hague was also made for such reasons, so

3 that you could appeal to voters, and you also wanted to redeem yourself

4 here by testifying with regard to subjects that have been shown to be

5 false by the Defence. Can you comment on that?

6 A. I'll first comment on the beginning.

7 Q. No, don't go article by article. That's not the purpose of my

8 question. I want to know whether this is what actually happened, whether

9 these individuals we have mentioned are individuals who said that in your

10 book you lied, you conveyed false information, you falsified information.

11 Is that what you've said? You've denied this in certain newspapers.

12 We've seen that. But I'm asking whether this is what actually happened.

13 Are these articles authentic?

14 A. At the promotion of my book there were 500 people from Mostar.

15 Only one or two individuals had negative things to say about the book.

16 The promoters were mufti -- the Mufti Smajkic, Professor Gojart [phoen].

17 Q. Can we stop there? Can we stop there? We know that Mufti Smajkic

18 was there as he has testified here. I don't want to mention him. I don't

19 want to talk about the promotion. I know that we could talk about such

20 claims for about a year. You could talk about it for a year in your

21 defence, but that's not what I'm interested in.

22 I'm interested in whether this is what actually happened as stated

23 in the newspapers.

24 A. No. This is not how things happened, but there are -- there's

25 Safet Orucevic who is hiding behind these people. Orucevic, who is a

1 criminal who was in the special purposes commission of the HVO, and I

2 mentioned him in my book.

3 Q. So there was such a reaction because Mostar wanted to defend one

4 man alone and all the combat organisations?

5 A. Not all of Mostar but certain individuals.

6 Q. Mr. Cupina, I think these articles say much more, say a lot.

7 We've provided the full copies of these articles to the Judges. I've only

8 read out the titles since we don't have much time. I know who the critics

9 were [as interpreted]. There was Seid Efendija Smajkic, and this can be

10 seen in some texts because we've all had the opportunity of hearing him in

11 the courtroom.

12 You were the director of the sports club Bosna; isn't that what

13 you said?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Up until when were you the director of the sports club Bosna?

16 MR. SCOTT: Before we go on to another topic, I think it's really

17 fundamentally unfair for counsel not to let the witness give a full answer

18 to the question. I just went back in the transcript. The question -- the

19 question went on for 13 minutes. The question, for 13 minutes. And

20 looking back over the past transcript, Counsel, I know it may be difficult

21 sometimes getting a direct answer from this witness, I understand that,

22 but, Your Honour, if you look -- look at the transcript just now. Counsel

23 won't even give him a chance to make an answer. Every time he attempts to

24 give an answer, she cuts him off. I think when counsel ask a question

25 that takes 13 minutes to ask, the witness deserves to have a fair

1 opportunity to respond to the questions. Number one.

2 Number 2, I don't know, again, if it was just confusion, but at

3 line 13 of page 103, counsel says: I know who the critics were, and then

4 immediately she says there was Seid Smajkic. Now I don't know if the

5 implication was intended that Mr. Smajkic, Mufti Smajkic was one of the

6 critics, but I don't think that's the case based on everything I have

7 read. So if that was the intention, that again is a mischaracterisation

8 of the record. But most of all, Your Honour, I think the witness should

9 be given fair opportunity to respond to the question.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, I will put the

11 question to you to save time. The Defence has shown a number of articles

12 to you. It concerns people who put your role into question. I'll just

13 provide you with an example. I've noticed that there's an Association of

14 Bearers of the Golden Lily. This is an order, distinction that is given

15 to those who have rendered service in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the course

16 of combat, in the course of fighting, and these people, Bearers of the

17 Golden Lily seem to put your actions into question.

18 You deny the contents of all the articles, but you added, without

19 providing any further explanation, that there was someone behind all of

20 this, Mr. Safet Orucevic. So this person Safet Orucevic, who is he? What

21 has he got against you and why, in your opinion, is he engaged in this

22 campaign of spreading disinformation with regard to you yourself?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at the beginning of the

24 aggression, Mr. Safet Orucevic was in the Special Purposes Council and

25 that council looted all the infrastructure of Mostar, stole the

1 infrastructure of Mostar, so nothing was provided to the state organs. No

2 information with regard to what was looted. He later on carried out

3 certain duties, but in the newspaper Dani in November, 1995, when mention

4 was made of the defence of Mostar, he mentioned my name.

5 JUDGE PRANDLER: Mr. Cupina, for your own interest that you --

6 that the Bench and everybody could follow you, please speak slowly,

7 because the interpreters cannot follow you. Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Orucevic was in the Special

9 Purposes Council, a body that preceded the HVO, the HZ HB. They had at

10 their disposal entire infrastructure of Mostar and the wider region.

11 Since that area on the right bank was never occupied by other forces apart

12 from these forces, and as a result they sold everything for -- they sold

13 everything and they became millionaires. And I just referred to his

14 oath. In the official paper of the army it concerned the Council for

15 Special Purposes in Mostar, and I also deny these claims because Mr. Safet

16 Orucevic, in the newspaper Dani in 1995, published in November, said if

17 anyone has anything to say about the resistance movement or the defence of

18 Mostar, he mentioned Suad Cupina and Mustafa Isovic and Hujdur Hujka.

19 They wanted to tarnish their reputation. I could see that in these

20 documents. They in fact wanted to tarnish his reputation.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

22 Q. There's an error in the transcript, I think. I didn't say a

23 critic, I said a reviewer. I said Seid Efendi Smajkic was a reviewer.

24 And my final question: Sir, when you were the commander of the

25 military police, did you file a criminal report against Mr. Orucevic

1 because of all the things that he stole and because of everything that he

2 did? And today, you mentioned something. At the time was there a

3 military prosecutor's office and was it possible for you to file such a

4 criminal report with anyone or perhaps did you do that after the war,

5 because such things are never too late, even after 15 years.

6 A. As far as I know, the military prosecutor's office was under the

7 HVO, the entire prosecutor's office, and it wasn't possible for me to do

8 that. I've explained this to many people. And this gentleman, as far as

9 I know -- know, well, there are 12 criminal reports filed against him in

10 Mostar. Because he's the owner of Mostar, he owns Mostar.

11 Q. Please. After the war, since the HVO didn't make this possible

12 for you in the course of the war, after the war did you file a criminal

13 report against him because of everything that he had done, according to

14 your information? Yes or no, please.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

18 questions for this witness.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Madam Nozica.

20 Mr. Ibrisimovic.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, I have a few questions to put to you

24 on behalf of my client and about what you have testified about over these

25 two days. Can we start now, Mr. Cupina?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I've been following you very carefully for two days. On a number

3 of occasions you said that you sent reports to you superiors in Sarajevo.

4 What I'm interested in, and it's not clear in my mind, who you are

5 superiors?

6 A. My superiors were all those were for Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

7 government and in the state. That's how I worked. For example, on the

8 14th of February, there was an order that I took to Arif Pasalic, telling

9 him what he should do.

10 Q. Please tell me, who were your superiors? It's a very simple

11 question. I was also from Bosnia-Herzegovina but you didn't send any

12 reports to me.

13 A. I sent reports to Jusuf Pusina and Sefer Halilovic.

14 Q. You said that you were the commander of the military police.

15 Judge Trechsel said that it was a commander -- you were a commander

16 without an army.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In such a capacity why did you send reports to the minister of the

19 interior? What has your role got to do with that?

20 A. It was done on a patriotic basis.

21 Q. As the commander of the military police, you should have sent

22 reports to your superior, your immediate superior. Who was your immediate

23 superior, in fact?

24 A. On the 14th of February, 1993 --

25 Q. I'm sorry, but we don't have much time.

1 A. I want to say --

2 Q. Who was your immediate superior; Sefer Halilovic?

3 A. He provided me with such authorisation.

4 Q. Did you send reports to him?

5 A. I sent him the report on the work schedule on work

6 rationalisation. We didn't receive an answer from Mr. Spago from Konjic,

7 the police station.

8 Q. So you don't have a superior, you don't know whom you're sending

9 reports to, whether to Halilovic or to Pusic [as interpreted]?

10 A. To both of them.

11 Q. But you didn't tell me why you sent reports to Pusic. Was it in

12 your capacity as an ordinary citizen or as the commander of the military

13 police?

14 A. In my capacity as an ordinary citizen. I could put it that way.

15 Q. So nothing is much clearer now but I wanted to hear that.

16 A. Act as you please.

17 Q. On page 108 it says that you sent reports to Mr. Pusic. So for

18 the sake of the transcript --

19 A. Pusina.

20 Q. It's Mr. Pusina, the minister of the interior of the Republic of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Let's go back to the period when you worked in the Commission for

23 Exchanges. Who established that commission?

24 A. They told me I was a member of that commission.

25 Q. My question is who established it?

1 A. The army and probably acting on an order from superior command. I

2 didn't receive the order from the superior command. They told me that

3 Arif Pasalic and I should be members of that commission.

4 Q. Who told you that?

5 A. Arif Pasalic.

6 Q. At the time Arif Pasalic said that you were both presidents?

7 A. No. He was the president, I was a member.

8 Q. Yesterday, you said, page 64 line 11 and line 12 of the

9 transcript, you said that you were both presidents. I even intervened on

10 that occasion to clarify the situation.

11 A. Can I say something? When he wasn't there, I would replace him,

12 you know, because he couldn't often be present.

13 Q. Please, who was the president and who were the members of the

14 commission and how many members did the commission have?

15 A. The commission, as far as I know, well, there were about seven

16 members. There were a number of people there; translators, et cetera.

17 Q. You were the head of the commission, you participated in

18 negotiations, and the work they were involved in was important. How many

19 members did it have then?

20 A. I think the commission had about seven members. I don't have

21 those documents now.

22 Q. Can you tell me some names? Can you tell me some names?

23 A. Bijavica, Buljko, Zulovic, Pitic, Saric, Jakirovic. Those would

24 be the names.

25 Q. We haven't got it in the transcript. Can you say that again

1 slowly, for the sake of the transcript.

2 A. Bijavica, Jakirovic --

3 Q. Slowly, please.

4 A. Bijavica, Jakirovic, Buljko, Saric, Zulovic, Cupina, Kitic [as

5 interpreted]. I think those were the names, and there were two women. I

6 can't remember their surnames.

7 Q. Were the women members of the commission or were they just

8 administrative staff?

9 A. Administrative staff.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we use the

11 e-court to show the witness document 00006. D6 00006.

12 Q. Before this document appears on the screen, I'll tell you,

13 Mr. Cupina, you don't know either how many members were on the commission

14 or who were the commission members as the deputy or president of the

15 commission, I don't know what you were.

16 A. I have said who the members were.

17 Q. But I'm telling you you don't know who the members were nor how

18 many commission members there were in all.

19 A. I've forgotten many of those names because I didn't see those

20 people, but I know the basic staff who was there with me all the time.

21 Q. But you know everybody who worked on HVO commissions, however.

22 Please scroll down this document. We can start. You said that

23 the commission was set up by the 4th Corps; right? You didn't see the

24 order but you think it was established by the 4th Corps.

25 A. Yes. I wasn't given an order. I was instructed orally about it.

1 Q. Can we scroll back to the beginning, to the top of the paper. I

2 don't see the 4th Corps indicated in this document at all. It would be in

3 order to indicate it if it were its document indeed, but it doesn't appear

4 on this paper. This appears to me to be more of a civilian commission for

5 deliberation, exchange, and so on and so forth; right? There is no

6 designation, there is no indication, no reference to the 4th Corps; right?

7 Can we agree on that?

8 First of all, let me ask you, do you recognise this document?

9 A. I cannot remember all the documents, but I did mention Pitic and

10 Saric and these other people. Because the record states Kitic. That's

11 why I'm saying Pitic.

12 Q. But this is your document.

13 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

14 Q. Can we scroll down, please, a bit. You say this is an order of

15 the commander by -- of the 4th Corps which you didn't see but you invoke

16 it. You invoke the order -- an order of the 4th Corps.

17 A. Yes. I was told that Arif Pasalic and I were to set it up because

18 the civilian and military authorities at that time --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel and witness please not overlap.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Suad Cupina should be in charge of all activities and then we

22 have the following members of the commission. You indicated some, you did

23 not know them all, and you signed this document; did you not?

24 A. I probably did, but this list was of -- of commission members was

25 later subsequently expanded. People came and cooperated --

1 Q. Please, did you or did you not sign this document?

2 A. I probably did sign it. I didn't see the original.

3 Q. But do you recognise your own signature?

4 A. Well, yes, I do. It is my signature. Sorry.

5 Q. You drew up this document and you designated your own self as the

6 person in charge of the commission's activities; right? That is what the

7 document says; right?

8 A. That is what is written here where at that time we didn't pay

9 attention to that.

10 Q. So you were not appointed by Mr. Pasalic as the person in charge?

11 A. No. I was appointed by Mr. Pasalic as the person in charge.

12 Q. You were actually appointing yourself as the person in charge.

13 A. But I'm not superior to General Pasalic, no.

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm trying to

15 elicit an answer from the -- from witness, and if you could perhaps

16 instruct him to make the life of us all easier.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You want to say that Mr. Pasalic

18 orally instructed you, told you that you were the president of that

19 commission; right?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There were no written orders to

23 that effect from the 4th Corps?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember any such orders.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Can you tell us what the terms of reference, what the mandate, the

2 powers of this commission were?

3 A. Its mandate was full cooperation with HVO representatives and

4 representatives of all international organisations and institutions. The

5 High Commission for Refugees, the International Red Cross, and so on and

6 so forth; everything that could help improve the quality of people's

7 lives.

8 Q. I was -- I asked you about the commission's powers. What were its

9 powers, its mandate?

10 A. I never received any authorisation, any powers in written form. I

11 was just instructed to take part in the exchanges, that we should pursue

12 this cooperation along those lines with the European Community, with

13 UNPROFOR, the International Red Cross, and seek to cooperate with them in

14 order to overcome conflicts and the aggression.

15 Q. To simplify, did you have a mandate as the president of the

16 commission to say this person here will be exchanged and this person here

17 will not be exchanged?

18 A. No, I had no such powers. I could never do that to anyone or in

19 respect of anyone.

20 Q. And who did make those lists?

21 A. The exchanges themselves I could never undertake without approval

22 from the 4th Corps. We could not even go to the other side because the

23 correspondence was conducted via the 4th Corps with UNPROFOR, with other

24 representatives. So I never was directly involved in the interchanges.

25 Q. When -- who prepared those lists in the 4th Corps; the military

1 security staff or somebody else?

2 A. In the 4th Corps people who are in charge of that, the 4th Corps

3 was under General Arif Pasalic.

4 Q. I don't believe it was General Pasalic who personally attended to

5 the list. Do you know who did?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. Thank you. Listening to your answers so far, I can see that the

8 work of you yourself and your commission was just along the lines of a

9 technical supporting service. Somebody else would prepare the lists, you

10 would go there in turn you had no powers at all.

11 A. Well, that's more or less the way it was.

12 Q. Thank you. You remember having given a statement to the

13 Prosecutor in January, 2004, do you? Don't you?

14 A. I remember some of it, not all of it.

15 Q. Do you still adhere to what you stated then?

16 A. I don't know what I said then exactly, but if I did give it, I do.

17 Q. Tell me, did you ever participate in negotiations during the term

18 of office of this commission which was in existence while you were

19 involved in its work? Were you ever involved in high-level negotiations

20 in Medjugorje?

21 A. No, I never was.

22 Q. Yesterday, you were shown by Colleague Prosecutor document number

23 P 02352, an agreement between General Petkovic and General Halilovic on

24 the 12th of May, 1993. Do you recall that document?

25 A. Yes, I do.

1 Q. That meeting was attended also by Lieutenant General Philippe

2 Morillon and Ambassador Thebault. They also co-signed this agreement

3 which regulated the issue of exchanges, of the release of prisoners, and

4 some other matters as well. You remember, you said that you were familiar

5 with the document.

6 A. It was on the basis of that document that we prepared our own all

7 for all document, and that is also stated in the preamble, as far as I can

8 remember.

9 Q. So this is a meeting attended by you, Slavko Puljic, Tihomir Maric

10 and General Pasalic?

11 A. Yes, I think so.

12 Q. Well, we shall come to that document. That was the meeting of the

13 25th of May, dealing with the implementation of this agreement between

14 General Petkovic and General Halilovic. Right, the agreement of the 12th

15 of May, 1993. That is what you said?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. So that was a step lower, a rung lower as regards talks about the

18 exchanges and other subject matters which were on the agenda; right? Is

19 this correct, Mr. Witness, Mr. Cupina?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. First there was the highest level, Tudjman, Izetbegovic; and then

22 we have the lower rung, Petkovic, Halilovic; and then we have your own

23 meeting, which is yet on the 25th of May, which is still a rung lower on

24 the ladder of meetings.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And what about the talks that you had with HVO representatives

2 after the 25th of May meetings? Is that still a rung lower in dealing

3 with exchanges and such other subject matters?

4 A. These were meetings held within the frame -- all for all

5 framework; right?

6 Q. Is this still a lower level meeting?

7 A. I don't know about any levels or rungs really.

8 Q. Yes. You mentioned yesterday that when you were at the meeting on

9 the 25th of May, Tihomir Maric also attended the negotiations and

10 Mr. Plavko --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the surname.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This is written in the statement which you signed; right?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Will the witness be shown by way of e-court -- they're warning me

16 that the record does not state at the meeting of the 25th of May that you

17 attended, Mr. Puljic and Mr. Tihomir Maric. They were there. That's what

18 you mentioned yesterday. Can you confirm that for us?

19 A. Yes. All those people who signed it, plus many other people.

20 Q. Yes. I'm asking about these two individuals. So can we have

21 document D6 00023 shown the witness via e-court, please. Can we have the

22 Bosnian version, please. And this is not the document. 6D 00023. Yes.

23 Go down, please. A bit more down, please. Decision on the appointment of

24 representatives to the negotiating team with the Muslim party -- Muslim

25 side in Mostar.

1 Have you read it, Mr. Witness?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see that Tihomir Maric is appointed as negotiator for

4 civilian issues as a member of the negotiating team? Did you know

5 Mr. Tihomir Maric before?

6 A. Well, as far as I can recall, only superficially. I knew

7 Filipovic much better.

8 Q. Do you know that Mr. Tihomir Maric at that time was a university

9 professor and he still is one?

10 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

11 Q. All right. Let us now move on to a document that we discussed

12 yesterday also, and that is document 6D -- and can we see it also on

13 e-court, please. It's 6D 00007. Can we show it to the witness by way of

14 e-court, please.

15 Can you first of all tell us, where was this meeting held?

16 A. As I recall having said yesterday, that was in the lottery -- that

17 is the regional SDA board near the cafe. I don't recall its name.

18 Q. Yesterday you said it was in the Spanish Battalion, I think.

19 A. No, no, no. I apologise. It wasn't.

20 Q. So we have Mr. Slavko Puljic. Did you know at the time

21 Mr. Puljic?

22 A. I knew all those people only superficially, not really deeply --

23 deep.

24 Q. So Mr. Slavko Puljic was on the side of the HVO and Mr. Tihomir

25 Maric -- Tihomir Maric was a university professor, as I said, at that

1 time. And Mr. Slavko Puljic was a senior officer of the HVO, a high

2 commander, head of the staff of the zone of operations South Herzegovina.

3 Did you know that at the time?

4 A. I did not -- I didn't understand you.

5 Q. I'm talking about Mr. Slavko Puljic.

6 A. If that is the one who came from the JNA, I remember one --

7 Q. Yes. This is a highly educated graduate of the military academy

8 prior to the war, currently is a general in the joint staff of the State

9 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is the man I'm talking about.

10 You signed -- the agreement was signed by you and General Pasalic

11 and witnesses, military observers Peter Espensen and a European Monitors

12 representative Nigel Milverton. Is it true that they attended that

13 meeting?

14 A. Yes it is. Yes, they did.

15 Q. So this agreement reflects what you negotiated about because --

16 and then you signed the paper, the agreement. Is that right?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Let me now ask you this: I told you that when you were given your

19 statement you said -- you said yesterday that you know Mr. Pusic, that you

20 have known him for a long time. And how long have you known Mr. Pusic?

21 A. This is because the people of Mostar and the interpreter cannot

22 hear the rest of the answer because of the overlapping.

23 Q. Pusic was an unskilled worker. I don't think he had finished

24 secondary school.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: As you have again been overlapping, the

1 interpreters understandably lost track, and I think you should go back to

2 the question, How long have you known Mr. Pusic? And then always wait

3 until the other party has finished speaking. I think we should ask the

4 technicians to make a record of this so we can press a button and just

5 play the record instead of having to repeat ten times on the same time --

6 the same day the same warnings.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Yesterday, you said during your testimony that you knew Mr. Pusic

9 and that you had known him for quite some time, for a very long time.

10 A. Just like any other citizen of Mostar, and we all know each other

11 more or less.

12 Q. In the statement which you gave to the Prosecutor -- Prosecutor in

13 2004, you said in that statement in respect of Mr. Pusic that he was an

14 unskilled worker and you said that I think he has not finished secondary

15 school.

16 A. I think that that was incorrectly quoted, incorrectly conveyed.

17 As far as I remember, I think I said -- I said that he had completed --

18 had completed secondary school.

19 Q. So we can say that he actually did complete secondary school and

20 at the beginning of war he was a prison guard in a prison.

21 A. That is what I said, and as far as I can remember, I saw him in

22 Celovina.

23 Q. Now, if on the HVO side we have the chief of staff of the

24 operative zone, university professors who are negotiating with you and

25 Mr. Pasalic, and Mr. Pusic, whether he had graduated from secondary school

1 or not and was an ordinary guard, would he have signed the document in

2 this way at such a high level?

3 A. I don't know what games they were playing. I can't speak of their

4 intentions.

5 Q. Sir, we're wasting a lot of time. Please answer my question.

6 A. Could you repeat the question.

7 Q. Mr. Pusic, an unskilled worker, whether he has or does not have a

8 secondary school, that is immaterial, an ordinary prison guard at the

9 beginning of the war, as you said, is Mr. Puljic's chief, boss, who is a

10 high-ranking officer and chief of staff and head -- chief of Mr. Maric,

11 whereas he's not signed on the document as having been a negotiator at all

12 or having attended the meeting.

13 A. According to my information, I said that he was the boss, the

14 chief. That's how he acted. I don't know these people very well, this

15 other man Maric, whatever his name is, but he seemed to be the boss, the

16 chief.

17 Q. The Presiding Judge said that it -- asked a question yesterday and

18 said that it was usually the chiefs who sign important documents and not

19 porters, drivers, and people like that.

20 A. I really can't say. I don't know.

21 Q. So you can't answer my question?

22 A. I really don't know. I don't know what the intentions were.

23 Q. Well, I'm asking you who the members of your commission of the 4th

24 Corps were. How many members did the commission have? If you have no

25 authorisation and if you have no knowledge about Mr. Pusic's position or

1 the people who decided about the negotiations, who made the decisions in

2 the Croatian Defence Council. That's what I'm asking you about.

3 A. So what are you asking me?

4 Q. That you didn't have the right information. If you don't have the

5 right information and knowledge about your own commission, then you can't

6 have any knowledge about the HVO commission.

7 A. Well, the commission started out with that many members, but as it

8 grew, more members joined up, and that is why I said that there was the

9 translator, Mr. Buljko and Mr. Bijavica, and although they weren't on the

10 list, they were always at these exchanges. That's how it was. Now, as

11 far as this piece of information is concerned, that's how I put it, that's

12 what I stated, and I consider it to be correct.

13 Q. You still haven't answered my question and I'm going to understand

14 your answer as saying that you cannot give me any information about that.

15 You don't know.

16 But let's move on. It's another document, one of yours, and could

17 it be put into e-court. 6D 00012 is the number.

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the

19 document is several pages long, I would like to ask the witness to be

20 supplied with a hard copy. It will make it easier for him to follow.

21 Q. The report is one that you were shown yesterday during your

22 testimony. You said that you had several meetings with respect to the

23 negotiations, and you mentioned Mr. Zelenika, Mr. Lugonja, Mr. Maric,

24 Topic, and Mr. Pusic as well, and they were all very important meetings, I

25 assume.

1 A. I did attend those meetings. All these people did come to the

2 premises and talk. I don't know in what capacity, though.

3 Q. And was one of the representatives of the international community

4 always present at the meetings?

5 A. Well, we didn't hold a single meeting without the presence of the

6 international community, to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

7 Q. I asked you about these meetings which discussed important issues.

8 A. Yes. Under the auspices of the international community, all the

9 meetings, as far as I remember -- well, they were nothing special.

10 Q. I talked to Mr. Pusic several times and discussed that topic, and

11 he said that he never sat down to the negotiating table with you.

12 A. I said that he wasn't sitting down to -- at the negotiating table,

13 that it was the other gentlemen, but they were there on the premises where

14 the negotiations were taking place.

15 Q. Thank you. We don't have much time. You said that there were

16 many such meetings. Look at page 4, please. Go to page 4. Have you

17 found page 4? Are you on page 4? Second paragraph from the top. I'm

18 going to read out the first paragraph.

19 "In agreement with the command of the 4th Corps, a list of

20 soldiers was compiled who were being sought, and they are 871 individuals

21 without addresses, an ABC order, and it was sent on to the UNHCR, the

22 International Red Cross, UNPROFOR, the EC monitors, the command of the 4th

23 Corps."

24 Now, as you compiled the document, would you read out the short

25 paragraph which says, "The list was not sent ..." Can you read that out.

1 A. "The list was not sent --"

2 Q. Just slowly, please.

3 A. "This list was not sent to the HVO because a joint meeting was

4 expected to take place to discuss these problems, but the meeting never

5 took place to the present day."

6 Q. So this list was not sent to the HVO because a joint meeting was

7 expected to take place, but that meeting never took place to the 21st of

8 June; is that right? So in this report you just mention one meeting, and

9 that was the 25th of May meeting. You only mention one. Did you draft

10 this report?

11 A. Well, we drafted it together, those people there with me. They

12 helped me.

13 Q. Are you the author of this report?

14 A. The report was compiled together with the members of the

15 commission and myself, and I think Omer Vatric helped me in writing the

16 report and Cico Sahovic, as far as I remember.

17 Q. Did you sign the report?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. So it is your report. You assigned --

20 A. For the commission.

21 Q. In this report no mention is made of Mr. Pusic. Some other names

22 are mentioned, but Mr. Pusic's name is not among them.

23 A. That is true. We didn't deal with the names and surnames of

24 people.

25 Q. Oh, yes, you did. You dealt with names and surnames but not that

1 particular name and surname.

2 We spoke about your book, which is about 750 pages long. I'm

3 asking you a very serious question now. Sometimes the author of a book

4 doesn't read the entire book after it's been printed. Have you read your

5 book? Have you read this book after it came out in print?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that the book is part of your truth, your own personal

8 truth.

9 A. Yes, precisely.

10 Q. And in it you describe, in your opinion, all the important events,

11 personalities during the period that you deal with in Mostar and

12 Herzegovina; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You mentioned Mr. Pusic in the book in only two places, very

15 marginally, in the part where you transcribe the indictment raised against

16 the accused here. You didn't mention him in any other context, negative

17 or otherwise.

18 A. Well, then the book would have had a thousand pages if I were to

19 have described every event.

20 Q. Thank you. That will do as an answer. In answer to Mr. Scott's

21 question, you said that Mr. Pusic, Berislav, was the alpha and omega, the

22 be-all and end-all in questions of exchange. And asked by my colleague

23 Ms. Nozica, you said that before the May, 1993, after the 21st of June,

24 1993, you had no knowledge of the exchanges that took place on the BH army

25 side, so you cannot know about any exchanges that took place on the other

1 side, on the HVO side, how the exchanges were conducted; right?

2 A. According to my information, the information that I had, I think

3 that as of July, 1992, the president of the Commission for Exchanges,

4 Mr. Berto - or Berko, as we called him in Mostar - Pusic, was that, from

5 July, 1992.

6 Q. Well, the Prosecution doesn't maintain that, but I needn't comment

7 that any further.

8 Since Mr. Pusic was the be-all and end-all -- was your brother

9 arrested, by the way?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Well, if Mr. Pusic was the be-all and end-all, why didn't you go

12 and see him and ask him to release your brother?

13 A. Because I knew the gentlemen, and I found them on those premises.

14 Mr. Stojic and Mr. Coric.

15 Q. Well, if you knew that Mr. Pusic was the top man, be-all, end-all,

16 you could have asked him. But let's wind this topic up. In your book you

17 mention Mr. Rizvanbegovic. Do you know him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know him well?

20 A. I know the professor.

21 Q. Do you know him well?

22 A. I know him well.

23 Q. Then you know that Rizvanbegovic was -- do you know that he

24 testified before this Court?

25 A. I can't remember whether I know that or don't know that. I'm not

1 quite sure whether he testified.

2 Q. Do you abide by Mr. Rizvanbegovic's opinion? Do you respect his

3 opinion? I would like to refer to the 28th of April, paragraph 9(F) of

4 part of Mr. Rizvanbegovic's testimony, and I'd like to put that to the

5 witness now.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak into the microphone, please.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. When they asked Mr. Rizvanbegovic about -- that is my learned

9 colleague Mr. Sahota asked him about the role of Berislav Pusic in his

10 release, Mr. Rizvanbegovic's answer was that Mr. Berislav Pusic's decision

11 was unimportant there. Do you agree with that?

12 A. I wasn't there, but I know him as an honourable man, and I don't

13 think he was saying anything wrong.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

16 Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is time to take a break.

18 Mr. Scott?

19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, just on the last point. Just for the

20 record, if we could have a page reference. There's a reference to the

21 28th of April and paragraph 9(F), and I'm sorry, I'm at a bit of a loss in

22 terms of referring to the transcript, what is 9(F).

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Counsel Ibrisimovic.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to the decision

25 of this Trial Chamber for guideline -- of the guidelines on the 28th of

1 April this year, paragraph 9(F), for me to be able to allow -- to ask that

2 kind of question of the witness. And the page of the 23rd of May is page

3 2269, Rizvanbegovic's testimony, lines 1, 2, and 3.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It is 3.35. We're

5 taking a 20-minute break and reconvene at approximately five to 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. And we

9 are running late because of a technical problem. Next counsel, please.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel speak into the microphone, please.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask a few

12 questions and then Mr. Coric himself would like to ask a few questions

13 because the witness spoke about their private correspondence and mentioned

14 his name.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

16 Q. My name is Dijana Tomasegovic Tomic. I am Defence counsel for

17 Valentin Coric. Tell me, please, sir, if I understood you correctly, you

18 told my colleague Ms. Nozica, who questioned you first today, that after

19 the 15th of May, 1992, you stopped cooperating with the HVO and stepped

20 down from the Independent Battalion, and the Independent Battalion no

21 longer cooperated with the HVO after that either in the Mostar area. Yes

22 or no, please. Just brief answers. We haven't got much time.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Yes. Now, tell me this: Do you know a person called

25 Breko Hasan, Hasan Breko?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us who the man is, and did they perform any function

3 in Mostar; and if so, what?

4 A. I know the name. I think he graduated from the faculty of

5 agriculture.

6 Q. I'm not interested in that.

7 A. I don't know if he is still alive.

8 Q. Was he alive in 1992?

9 A. Probably, yes.

10 Q. And what did he do in 1992?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. You don't know. Fine. Now, could we have document 5D 00492 be

13 placed on e-court, please. Yes. That's fine.

14 I would like to read out the heading. I think you can see for

15 yourself, but for the record, it says up at the top the "HVO." Under

16 that, the "Independent Battalion Mostar," and under that, "1st

17 Company-Carina." And the title is "Report on the numerical situation."

18 Now, may we zoom down to the bottom of the page. We can see the

19 date. It says Mostar, the 12th of July, 1992. And then the signature is

20 KOM, commander of the 1st Company, Breko Hasan.

21 When I say "KOM," does that mean the commander of the 1st Company?

22 Would that be right? Yes or no.

23 A. Probably, yes.

24 Q. All right. Fine. Let's move on. That will do for that

25 document. We won't need it any more.

1 Today you answered my colleague Ms. Nozica, when asked about the

2 Patriotic League, that the members of the Patriotic League were many

3 individuals who were not Muslims. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could we now see the following document: 5D 00493.

6 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would like to ask the counsel always to

7 indicate that now we are dealing with documents which we just received in

8 a new folder. I believe it is this blue folder, because altogether today

9 we received three folders, and it is better to identify in which folder do

10 we have the documents which you are referring to. Thank you very much.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. We can now see a document entitled the "Patriotic League Staff."

13 I'll now read through the names that we can see on the document: Arif

14 Hadziosmanovic, Emir Konjo, Mustafa Cavra, Emir Badzak, Suad Cupina, Nail

15 Nozic, Sead Celebic, Ibrahim Maksumovic, Hamo Husic, Zikrija Djonko,

16 Dervis Kaminic. Could you scroll up, please. Ismet Hadziosmanovic, Ekrem

17 Sehic, Kerim Hadziosmanovic, Miralem Batlak, Osman Maric, Elvedin Ajanic,

18 Aner Hazirovic, Nedzad Hazirovic, Atifa Hazirovic, Edin Rizvanovic,

19 Muhamed Taslidja, Safet Memic.

20 Could you now please tell me the following: If I say that all

21 these members are names of Muslims, am I correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, this is a piece of paper, a

24 handwritten list of names with a title "Stab Patriotske Lige." There is

25 no author mentioned, no date, no place where the document was established.

1 It's not much of a piece of evidence, actually. Could you elaborate a

2 bit and ask the witness whether he knows the document.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please. Microphone,

4 please.

5 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] This document was obtained

6 from the state archives of the Republic of Croatia. In the right-hand

7 side you can see a small stamp, in the upper right-hand side. I can ask

8 the gentleman the following question:

9 Q. Would it be correct to say that these individuals were members of

10 the Patriotic League staff?

11 A. These people were members of the Patriotic League, but they

12 weren't all in the Patriotic League staff.

13 Q. Do you know these names? Do you know all these individuals?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. I have no further questions relating to this document. I'll now

16 move on.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To answer the question put by

18 Judge Trechsel, the document that you see here, could you provide an

19 approximate date for this document? When was this document drafted, in

20 which year? If you know the answer, tell us. If not, just say you don't

21 know the answer.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you the exact date

23 of this document.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue.

25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Today you told my colleague Mrs. Nozica that you could claim for

2 sure that while you were a member of the Commission for Exchanges of

3 Prisoners there were no prisons held by the army of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina; is that correct?

5 A. I am saying that that was the case during the period when I

6 compiled reports. I don't know about other periods.

7 Q. Was that from the 21st of May, 1993, until the 21st of June, 1993?

8 Is that the period concerned?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Very well. Could we now see the following document: 5D 00491.

11 The heading is the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Croatian

12 Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Defence Council, the operative

13 zone of South-eastern Herzegovina, Mostar, and then below we have the

14 date, the 21st of May, 1993. The title of the document is "Report on the

15 arrested HVO members and civilians according to the information obtained

16 by Salihe Sehic, a member of the 2nd Brigade protection company.

17 A. I don't have any information about this.

18 Q. Just a minute, please. Today you told my colleague Mrs. Nozica

19 that the building where your headquarters, your commission's headquarters

20 were located were across the road from the SDK, the public utilities

21 building; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The public accounting building; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You also said that while you were compiling reports in the SDK

1 building, you said that there was no prison in the SDK building.

2 A. I have no information about that.

3 Q. Could we scroll down to see the bottom of the document, please.

4 I'll just read the last line. It says: The above-mentioned individuals

5 being held in detention in the SDK building on the left bank. It's been

6 signed by Mr. Rotin, the 2nd Brigade SIS.

7 And I have one more question about this. In your report, you'll

8 probably remember it since you drafted it, we don't have to have a look at

9 it, in your report you mentioned the name of a soldier who was to be

10 exchanged. He was a soldier from the Croatian side. His name was Igor

11 Kapor; am I correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And now can we enlarge the name of the person listed under number

14 22. Under number 22 we can see the number Igor Kapor. Could you explain

15 something for me: How do you know about the individual named Igor Kapor?

16 We can see that this person was detained in the SDK building on the left

17 bank, but you say that you have no information about a detention centre

18 being located there. I don't understand this.

19 A. I really had no information about that because when exchanges

20 commenced, there were only two issues that were being dealt with, and I

21 didn't know anything about any prisoners. I never went there, I couldn't

22 see what was being done there, but I saw Igor Kapor at this exchange and

23 Kapor --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, if I've understood you

25 correctly, the office that you worked in was not far from this facility,

1 this -- this bank. Could you confirm that your office was next to the

2 bank or not far from it.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. On the 21st of May,

5 were you in your office?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you were not aware of the

8 fact that several metres away there were at least 39 individuals who were

9 being held as prisoners.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really had no information about

11 that.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, it's as if we had a prison

13 just across the road from this building, and now you're telling us that

14 you had no knowledge about this. That's what you're telling us.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that was the command of the

16 4th Corps that was there and of the Mostar Brigade. That's all I knew

17 about it. If that's what you're referring to, if that's what you have in

18 mind.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But according to what you say,

20 if it's true, your task was to exchange prisoners, to organise prison

21 exchanges, exchanges of HVO and ABiH prisoners. That was your mission,

22 your task, and now we learn that there were some prisoners being held in

23 detention several metres away from where you had your office and now

24 you're saying you know nothing about this, you knew nothing about this.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's absolutely certain. I never

1 knew anything about this until there was this exchange of these two

2 soldiers.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the name Igor Kapor, which

4 appears in your report, where did this name come from?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, his name was mentioned at the

6 exchange itself. As far as I know, I can remember him and Suad Nametak.

7 I didn't have any other information.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're the president of the

9 Commission for Exchanges, and you were told that someone called Igor Kapor

10 is being held by one of the sides, and you didn't even ask yourself where

11 he was being detained, where he was detained?

12 A. I didn't even know that he was being held as a prisoner until this

13 issue was raised.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed,

15 Counsel.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Please tell me the following: You said that you didn't know that

18 Igor Kapor or these individuals were detained, at least not until this

19 issue was raised. Were you provided with a list of individuals that the

20 Croatian side was looking for? When you were in the commission, did you

21 see any such lists?

22 A. As far as I can remember, I didn't see lists of any kind. I don't

23 know if they provided lists to someone else, perhaps to Arif Pasalic, but

24 I can't remember being provided with lists of any kind.

25 Q. But later on, did you see such lists? Did Arif Pasalic inform you

1 of such lists since you were his deputy?

2 A. No, he didn't. They did their work and we were separate in the

3 corps command.

4 Q. Sir, I don't understand what your work involved, in that case. I

5 just don't understand that. What were your duties? I fail to

6 understand.

7 A. What do you mean, what were my duties?

8 Q. What were your duties? You have no knowledge about lists, you

9 know nothing about detainees. They were walking around on the left bank

10 of Mostar. You have to help me because I can't understand you.

11 A. I've told you everything that I know about.

12 Q. In other words, could we come to the conclusion that in fact you

13 know absolutely nothing about exchanges? You have no knowledge about

14 lists, you have no knowledge about where these people were being held, you

15 don't know whether they were imprisoned or whether they were free. You

16 have absolutely no knowledge about the exchanges; is that correct?

17 A. No, it isn't.

18 Q. In that case, tell me what you know.

19 A. Well, I've told you everything I know. You've seen that in the

20 report I mentioned.

21 Q. Your report is contradictory. It contradicts what you said

22 because you mention prisoners in your report and in your testimony you say

23 there were no prisons. If a person is detained, a prisoner, then either

24 he's being held in a prison or in a concentration camp. Such persons

25 don't walk around Mostar. How can you explain this?

1 A. Well, the report was compiled. It is such as it is, and I know

2 nothing else.

3 Q. But we can't understand this, given your testimony.

4 A. Well, that's the report that I drafted, and things were as I have

5 said, and I don't know how to put it in any other way.

6 Q. I can't obtain an answer to this question. I'll move on since

7 it's obvious that I won't obtain an answer. We don't have much time.

8 Could we see document 5D 00494, please.

9 In the heading of this document, it says the Republic of Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian

11 Defence Council, operative zone of South-eastern Herzegovina, Mostar, the

12 date is Mostar, the 23rd of May, 1993. The title of the document is the

13 list of HVO members being held in prison by the ABiH, the

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina army. Could we now have a look at the following page.

15 I think it's page number 3. Yes.

16 Could you scroll up a bit, please. A little further. A little

17 further down, in fact. That's fine. That's good.

18 On page 3 we can see that it says "civilians," and then we have a

19 list of the civilians concerned. I won't read through it. And it says

20 next to the name of each individual, each civilian, "In prison in

21 Jablanica." Do you have any knowledge about that prison?

22 A. No. No. I never even went to Jablanica.

23 Q. And do you know whether there was a prison in Jablanica?

24 A. Well, how would I know that? We couldn't communicate with

25 Jablanica at the time.

1 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt my colleague. I

2 think the witness still has in front of him some other documents left over

3 from the former cross-examination. Perhaps those could be taken away at

4 this point.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please remove your documents.

6 Yes. That's good.

7 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Cupina, I'll now show a number of documents to you and then

9 I'll ask you a general question about all those documents.

10 Could we see document 5D 00479.

11 The heading says the operative zone of South-eastern Herzegovina,

12 OZ JIH, the SIS department, then we have a number, Mostar, the 30th of

13 April, 1993. The title of the document is information, or report. I'll

14 only read out part of the document. I'm reading the second paragraph out

15 now: "In a series of attacks on individuals and groups of Croats and HVO

16 members on which occasions they were maltreated, insulted, and physically

17 abused, their property would be taken away from them, et cetera, but our

18 attention is drawn in particular to the event that took place on the 27th

19 of April, 1993. In fact, at a checkpoint next to the tobacco factory,

20 certain town inhabitants, Zijo Orucevic, Emir Habibija, Nermin Cupina, and

21 Azer Penava, together with those town criminals intercepted three members

22 of the HVO military police: Pero Delic, Marko Martinac, and Roland

23 Martinic. They took their weapons from them and then they forced them to

24 graze on the grass and to crawl along the asphalt road. This

25 abuse was performed between 1930 hours and 2030 hours.

1 "Since this is not the only form that the abuse of Croats has

2 taken, it is necessary to do everything to protect the citizens and

3 officials on the left bank. One form of fighting against such

4 perpetrators or fighting against perpetrators of such act would be to

5 issue a wanted list or, rather, to place them beyond the law."

6 Do you know the individuals who have been mentioned here, Zijo

7 Orucevic and the others that I have mentioned?

8 A. Zijo Orucevic and these other individuals were such criminals.

9 They were "zulumcari."

10 Q. Could you say what "zulumcari" means?

11 A. Well, it means people who are fighting for themselves. They were

12 with Tuta, and then they fought for someone else. Zijo Orucevic wounded

13 me. Nermin Cupina was a petty criminal before the war near Mostar.

14 Similarly, Emir Habibija was a petty criminal. He disturbed public law

15 and order. I don't know who they were with, who they belonged to at the

16 time, but they were young men who tended to disturb law and order.

17 Q. So we have identified these people. You know who they are.

18 Can we have 5D 00468 -- 86, excuse me.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have a question on this document. This is one

20 Nermin Cupina. Is that a relative of yours? I have on this document one

21 person by the name of Nermin Cupina. I wonder whether it is a relative of

22 yours.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he is not. He's from the

24 village of Vranjevici.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So we have the same heading. Let me not go through it all. It is

3 the 7th of May, 1993. It is an extraordinary report, signed by the

4 commander of the 3rd Battalion of the military police, Zeljko Dzidic. And

5 the report which you have before you, and you can of course go through it,

6 but if not, I'm going to summarise what it is about. This is about

7 different incidents in which people came under fire, or fire was opened in

8 the eastern part of Mostar. Fire was opened at HVO members in the eastern

9 part of Mostar. This took place on the 7th of May, 1993.

10 A. I didn't get the question.

11 Q. There is no question. I just want to summarise the contents so

12 that we save time, because this is of relevance to the consolidated

13 question, the general question which I'm going to ask you.

14 Can we move on to document 5D 00514.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you're now asking some

16 preliminary questions. You are making a sort of introduction to your

17 question.

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Some associated

19 documents which are mutually interconnected. At the end, I shall be

20 asking a very brief question.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Continue.

22 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So we have a document. It says the Croatian Community of

24 Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Defence Council, the 3rd Battalion of the

25 military police, crime suppression department, Mostar, the 7th of May,

1 1993. It's a special report, or extraordinary report, signed by two

2 officers, Sifra [phoen] and Zelenika, and this describes an event of fire

3 having been opened, and severe injuries having been sustained on the 7th

4 of May, 1993, by 14 HVO members, and one of them was gravely injured and

5 one indeed succumbed to his injuries.

6 So this took place on the road leading to go Rodoc, the junction

7 towards the Lucki Most. You are familiar with all these sites, so I

8 spared you the reading for the sake of time.

9 Can I ask that 5D 00485 be shown to the witness, please.

10 It is the same heading as the previous documents apart from the

11 last one. 2nd HVO Brigade, 7th May, 1993. This is a report on an on-site

12 investigation, and the signature says that Ivan Pazin and Ivica Rotin

13 conducted the investigation, and this is an on-site investigation of the

14 previous incident of the opening of fire on the road towards Rodoc which I

15 described a while ago. And now I come to my question. Are you familiar

16 with any of the incidents that I mentioned here; the 30th of April, the

17 7th of May, and the 5th of May, 1993?

18 A. I have heard about -- I heard about this incident which took place

19 at Donja Mahala. I heard that there were some skirmishes there. Some

20 fire was exchanged with Juka, because allegedly some people said he had

21 joined the HVO, crossed over to the HVO.

22 Q. So you did hear about these events?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At that time you were the commander of the military police of the

25 -- of the army of B and H. You were not still relieved of duty. You

1 were an operative, as you said. You were the person in charge of the

2 police for the Mostar area. In fact, you said for the entire area of

3 Herzegovina; right?

4 A. No. I only told you in my statement that I had a paper to that

5 effect and I had no real powers nor any authority. I could not institute

6 any proceedings because all the judicial organs were under HVO control.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Let me just verify this. You said that the

8 military police of the army of B and H under your command did not even

9 manage to get organised because you were prevented from doing so by the

10 HVO. Is that what you said?

11 A. That is what I said.

12 Q. 5D 00513 is the document I should like the witness to be shown

13 now, please.

14 The heading says Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian

15 Defence Council, 1st Company, the Tihomir Misic barracks, 12th of March,

16 1993, Mostar. The title is "Report on the organisation of the military

17 police of the Tihomir Misic left bank barracks."

18 I shall now read for you some parts of it. Can we go to the third

19 paragraph, please, so that I don't read the entire document.

20 The third paragraph says the following: "All the duties and

21 movements of the army of the B and H and the military police of army

22 report to our station and they seek approval from us. All apprehensions,

23 the closure of facilities and other duties we have been conducting without

24 any major problems. Whenever an incident or something similar happens,

25 the army of BH and the military police of the army regularly seek us, our

1 participation in it and report to us on it. For work and security on the

2 left bank to be as successful as possible, we need to increase the number

3 of policemen (50 to 60) as well as the number of soldiers in the barracks

4 on the left bank. In order for all this to function as best as possible,

5 you -- we need to set up another one or two checkpoints in the city

6 itself.

7 "For work to be as successful as possible, we also need to recruit

8 -- to engage the civilian MUP on the left bank. All the duties regarding

9 the -- all duties regarding civilians are being carried out by the

10 military police so that the large need for a civilian ministry of the

11 interior is filled.

12 "On the left bank there already functions the civilian police of

13 the army, and they are located in two or three places on the left bank."

14 This is signed by the commander of the station of the military

15 police, of the TM barracks, the commander of the 1st Company, Tihomir

16 Misic. It seems to me that there existed a military police and that it

17 cooperated with the ABiH. That is in 1993, a month before the incidents

18 in question. Am I right? That is what it appears to me from this

19 document.

20 A. That is the military police of the Mostar Brigade, but not of the

21 region. I was only referring to the military police of the region.

22 Q. No, that is not what you said, sir.

23 A. Well, perhaps I misspoke. Perhaps I didn't say it all.

24 Q. But you said that the military police had not been organised as

25 yet and that you didn't have any powers.

1 A. I was referring to that of the region, of the region.

2 Q. Then we don't understand each other. Sir, you never referred to

3 the region. You kept saying that you were the commander of the military

4 police of the H -- BH and that it was personally Mr. Sefer Halilovic who

5 had appointed you to that post.

6 A. May I answer?

7 Q. I can find this for you in the transcript. Don't make me do that.

8 A. Can I give you an answer, please? What I said was it does say the

9 commander of the military police of the region of Mostar.

10 Q. No, that is not what you said.

11 A. It is in the document.

12 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not

13 have any further questions for this witness. Thank you, Mr. Cupina.

14 I should like to give the floor to Mr. Coric, by your leave, Your

15 Honours.

16 Cross-examination by the Accused Coric:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Cupina. I should like to

18 read a portion of a document which we did not plan to tender today, just

19 to show that the military police in the region of Herzegovina from Konjic

20 to the south did exist and was organised not only at brigade level and

21 corps level but also at regional level, at the level of the entire region.

22 In the heading -- we shall be tendering this document when the

23 first opportunity poses itself, but let us now just discuss the period it

24 deals with. The heading is Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, army of

25 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, command of the 4th Corps, security

1 organ. The date is the 2nd of February, 1993. The document's title is

2 report on the organisation of the formation of the battalion of the

3 military police. It is addressed to the deputy commander for security

4 affairs. And I'm just going to read a very short portion of the text.

5 And this is with -- in reference to the documents present by Defence

6 counsel a while ago.

7 On the 15th of December, 1992 -- this previous document was of the

8 12th of March, 1993 -- the commander of the 4th Corps issued an order on

9 the setting up of a battalion of -- of the military police of the 4th

10 Corps of the army of B and H, appointing the commander of the military

11 police battalion, Mr. Nusret Sahic. While the deployment of the battalion

12 was to be such that one company would be stationed at Jablanica, one

13 company in Mostar, and the command of the battalion and another company in

14 Konjic. This order came into force with immediate effect on the day of

15 its issuance.

16 Mr. Cupina, does this document, this short extract of this

17 document, which otherwise has two pages, does it disprove you, namely your

18 statement that in the period under consideration there did not exist a

19 regional police on the -- one of the decisions in reference to which also

20 your name features? Yes or no.

21 A. The document of Arif Pasalic of the 21st of March, 1993, attests

22 to the fact that I did not set up --

23 Q. No, I didn't ask you that. Please answer my question. I don't

24 have much time.

25 A. No.

1 Q. Thank you very much. And a step further, to go a step further, I

2 should like to speak about a document which regrettably also today

3 emanates from what has been discussed today, but it will be much briefer

4 for the one we discussed previously. It is also Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then it goes on to say battalion of the military

6 police, the 27th -- 27th of January, 1993, namely the police has already

7 been organised, set up, and is functioning.

8 This document is signed by the Commander Nusret Sahic, and just

9 one sentence from that document by which I wish to corroborate that not

10 only did there exist a military police of the army of BH in the region of

11 Mostar but also that it cooperated with the HVO; i.e., the military police

12 of the HVO. And I quote from this document: "On the 26th and 27th of

13 January, 1993, three people were killed in Brdjani and one in Buturovic

14 Polje." Where are Brdjani and Buturovic Polje, Mr. Cupina?

15 A. I don't know. Buturovic Polje I know is in the vicinity of

16 Konjic. I don't know about this other place.

17 Q. Thank you. Let me read out for you another sentence: "Together

18 the police of the MUP and the HVO -- with the police and the MUP of the

19 HVO, we inspected the scene of the events and on which there exist records

20 that were drawn up."

21 So that this -- this is a document of the battalion -- military

22 police battalion, and when the opportunity poses itself, we shall be

23 tendering this document into the case file.

24 That is as far as the question of the military police is

25 concerned. Mr. Cupina, I would like us to solve some problems now, ones

1 that were raised yesterday that you spoke about. You mentioned a letter

2 of mine that I sent to you sometime in May, 1992. Have you kept that

3 letter?

4 A. I think I have, yes.

5 Q. Do you happen to have it on you?

6 A. In the office of the Tribunal. I think it's there.

7 Q. Did you present that letter to Alija Izetbegovic personally during

8 the first visit to Sarajevo?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Mr. Cupina, who brought you that letter?

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember who brought the letter. One of

12 your people. I can't remember.

13 Q. I should now like to refer to your book. I'm going to have to

14 read out a portion of the book. It is on page 486 and 487. "I was the

15 target," you say, "of various manipulations with the aim of placing me to

16 work for the politics of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. After my

17 departure from the Independent Battalion and the defence of Mostar, a

18 Bosniak delegation went to see Valentin Coric straight away, and also

19 Bruno Stojic ..."

20 Now, I'm interrupting the sentence there. There's a comma, and

21 I'm going to continue later on. Can you remember whether anybody from the

22 delegation brought you that letter of mine that I sent, since you can't

23 remember the name?

24 A. I can't remember that.

25 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to continue reading the sentence:

1 " ... they accused me of me having accused and blamed the HVO because of

2 the fall of the left bank ..." And I interrupt the sentence there again

3 to ask you who are "they" when you say "they accuse me"?

4 A. Himzo Nazrajic and Stela, as far as I remember. They gave me that

5 information, and some others I don't remember.

6 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I never

7 mentioned two names in that context, but you'll see what this is about

8 when I read on.

9 Q. And I'm continuing that sentence: "... they even asked that I be

10 liquidated."

11 Who asked for your liquidation?

12 A. Those people who came. You conveyed that to me, Valentin.

13 Q. When and where?

14 A. Well, Valentin, when you entered into the alliance with BH, or in

15 a conversation. When I was at a competition in Citluk.

16 Q. Do you know, Mr. Cupina, what units Stela and Nazrajic were in at

17 the time?

18 A. Please remind me.

19 Q. We're talking about the Bosniak delegation which came to see me,

20 and which came to see Bruno Stojic, as you say. As far as I know, those

21 two men were never in any Bosniak delegation. If you have information to

22 the contrary, who could they have belonged to? Tell us here and now.

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Thank you. That will do.

25 A. You told me that.

1 Q. No, I didn't. And I'm going to read on from the book. You stated

2 the following: That I told the delegation, that I said to them that we

3 weren't in charge of the Bosniaks. "'You must do that yourselves ...'"

4 that is to say to kill Cupina, that's what it means, just to make things

5 clear. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, I think that is what it says.

7 Q. "'... if you're courageous enough,' Coric said to them, and

8 subsequently one of the visitors acknowledged that later on."

9 So you once again refer to these visitors. Obviously those were

10 not Stela and Nazrajic. So if it wasn't clear to you the first time or

11 the second time that you're lying, is it plain to you now on the third

12 time?

13 A. It was a conversation between you and me and the people there. I

14 later on checked that out.

15 Q. Thank you. I'm asking the questions. Let's move on because I

16 haven't got enough time. We'll now come to the letter. "Cupina --" and

17 I'm reading the letter, and I'm going to interrupt. I asked you for the

18 letter because this isn't the original letter. Two key things are lacking

19 from the letter, but even a distorted letter of this kind will be

20 sufficient to speak about the actual state of affairs in Mostar.

21 So this letter occurred when you lost the east bank, when you all

22 crossed from the left bank of the river Neretva to the right bank. And

23 I'm now talking about the vast majority of Bosniaks who lived in the

24 eastern part of Mostar, and some of the Croats, because the Serbs had

25 already left. I'm talking about the thousands of Bosniaks who came in

1 from Eastern Herzegovina, and it was general chaos. But this is what I

2 write to you: "I hope that everything passed in the best possible way. I

3 have all information about the situation in Mostar. I recommend as a

4 friend of our peoples, I believed in that then -" that's my comment - "to

5 leave politics alone. And in that case -" and this is what is lacking in

6 the sentence - "your people will leave you too."

7 Mr. Cupina, they came to tell me that they had decided to kill you

8 then. The product of that sentence is that and the letter to try and save

9 your life. That is what I did, out of my convictions and gratitude for

10 having had proper cooperation up until then because I knew your family and

11 because I hoped that you were not guilty. That was my comment.

12 I'm going to continue reading the letter now. "After the war, let

13 the politicians deal with topics that some people on both sides are trying

14 to deal with now."

15 Which two sides am I thinking of when I say that?

16 A. Since you wrote the letter, you interpret it for yourself. I

17 know.

18 Q. Well, I came to The Hague with my letter to explain that to you.

19 I meant the Bosniaks. I was referring to the Bosniaks. And I'm talking

20 to Dzeba now. "I'm quite clear on the position you find yourselves in."

21 Dzeba was the commander of the military police in Mostar, by the way. "It

22 is not essential who is in command. The important thing is that we're not

23 killed by the Chetniks and that the town -- they don't take the town, take

24 control of the town."

25 Cupina, I was busy saving the town, if you will believe me, at

1 that time. Do you believe me or not?

2 A. I can't believe you.

3 Q. Thank you. That will do. Thank you. Thank you. I'll continue

4 reading the letter. There's not much more to go.

5 "You should be tolerant and talk to Dzeba and Zelenika and solve

6 all the problems."

7 Were Zelenika and Dzeba the most responsible people in the HVO of

8 Mostar?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. New sentence: "Unfortunately, it seems that some

11 people among you do not understand who is stronger, who has more weapons,

12 food, support, and the desire to fight for a free Mostar. Your people

13 know that." And my comment is, and I should like to convince you of that,

14 is that the vast majority of your people knew that too. If you don't know

15 as the commander of that people, I thought you were the real commander.

16 That was comment.

17 And now a distorted sentence which reads as follows: "You can

18 expect no good, you or your people." The comment is: This isn't a threat

19 as it appears here. It was a message, a well-intentioned message which

20 confirms -- which is confirmed by the very next sentence: "This letter is

21 a friendly letter and an unofficial one, and you can't refer to it. I

22 hope that things will improve. Yours, Valentin."

23 The quotation from the book is your comment. After that letter,

24 you say: "This letter, too, from Valentin Coric was a political attempt

25 in the difficult military and political circumstances to exert

1 psychological pressure and political pressure upon me." I won't read any

2 further.

3 Mr. Cupina, after that, I have a few more short questions. I

4 think that they're highly significant. I would need hours to ask them,

5 but I think it would be a good thing for this trial, Your Honours, for the

6 following reason, if I were to ask them: We come to the root of the

7 tragedy in Mostar here. I should like to mention this can be seen from

8 the following question: Mr. Cupina, do you remember that I suggested when

9 I came as the number one man of the military police of the HVO that we

10 establish a military police in Mostar, a joint military police in Mostar,

11 in which the ratio would be 50/50, 50 Croats -- 50 per cent Croats and 50

12 per cent Bosniaks. Is that true?

13 A. No, it isn't.

14 Q. Do you remember that the conflict and clash arose over who was

15 going to head that police force? Do you remember that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Let me remind you that I put forth Zeljko Dzidic for the

18 commander, because the police in Mostar already existed. Do you remember

19 that or not?

20 In the war with the Serbs, there was a commander sitting behind me

21 now, and I'm sure you are aware of that, if you're honest. When Mostar

22 was liberated from the Serbo-Chetniks, you will -- do you remember which

23 units crossed the Neretva first? Quite literally waded through or swam

24 across the river Neretva?

25 A. I don't know what position along the Neretva.

1 Q. Have you heard of the name Zeljko Dzidic and the military police?

2 Have you heard of Karlo Dzeba?

3 A. Karlo Dzeba was part of the Independent Battalion at that time.

4 Q. Well, ask Karlo Dzeba who he crossed the Neretva with.

5 A. All right, I will. But Karlo Dzeba was part of the Independent

6 Battalion, the Cernica Company. He was a very honest and courageous

7 fighter.

8 Q. Do you know that Karlo Dzeba, after your departure from the

9 Independent Battalion, was a permanent member of the HVO and in recent

10 years he was my assistant in MUP in the Herzegovina-Neretva canton?

11 A. No, I did not know that.

12 Q. I have hundreds of questions to ask you. Mr. Cupina, when you

13 wrote your book, did you use the indictment from The Hague Tribunal

14 against Prlic et al.?

15 A. There was no reason for that. I know the situation very well.

16 Q. Yes or no, please.

17 I would now like to read out for Their Honours something from page

18 482 of your book. I haven't asked you anything yet. Please let me

19 continue.

20 On page 482, the title is "Criminal activities of the HVO." And

21 there's a footnote, 83, footnote 83, and I'm going to read out what it

22 says: "In addition to the relevant documentation from the archives of the

23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the MUP of the Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the indictment was used which the International

25 Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia raised against Jadranko Prlic

1 and all of us here."

2 Your Honours, those of us who have the book, I have quoted the

3 page, page 482. You can read it.

4 And during your testimony today, you clearly confirm, when asked

5 by someone, that you did use the indictment. Now, why am I asking you

6 that? I'm asking you because yesterday you gave us a monologue about the

7 criminal activities of the HVO. You delivered that monologue yesterday,

8 and you said roughly the following: The HVO killed, raped, destroyed

9 religious sites and buildings, destroyed bridges and everything else. Is

10 that what you said here in court yesterday?

11 A. I probably said that in that context, yes.

12 Q. Does that mean, as somebody once said, that you learnt that

13 quotation off by heart or, rather, was that book written on the basis of

14 our indictment in part? Yes or no.

15 A. Well, I have to elaborate.

16 Q. There's no elaboration, just yes or no. I don't have enough time.

17 If the Court gives me enough time, then --

18 A. Well, as to the bridges, it's common knowledge who did what.

19 Q. I didn't ask you that, although you deal with the issue in your

20 book. You said who did that. Now, when we're on the subject of bridges,

21 who destroyed the bridges in Mostar? Go on, tell us. And when were they

22 destroyed?

23 A. Well, I elaborate on that in my book, in the Samurai journal, I

24 said --

25 Q. I wasn't asking you that, Mr. Cupina. What I asked you was this:

1 When and who destroyed the bridges in Mostar?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Coric.

3 Mr. Cupina, the question that Mr. Coric is asking you is a very

4 simple one: Did you use the indictment in writing your book? So the

5 answer is either yes or no.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In part, yes. Because of

7 terminology, to use the right expressions and that kind of thing.

8 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I would just like to finish with the topic of bridges. The

10 numerous lies that I heard uttered yesterday and today, I'm just going to

11 read out one sentence: "The main destroyers of the bridges on the river

12 Neretva, pursuant to orders of the HDZ, the Croatian army, the HVO and the

13 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, was Valentin Coric."

14 And on the following pages, anybody who takes up this book and

15 looks through it, Mr. Cupina, explains that every bridge was destroyed and

16 who destroyed it. And no mention is made, as far as I know, of the name

17 of Valentin Coric.

18 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] That's what I wanted to ask.

19 Thank you for your patience and thank you, Mr. Cupina, and bon voyage to

20 you.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President -- Mr. President --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, Mr. Coric said that

23 in your book you said that he was the person responsible for the

24 destruction of the bridges, and then in other parts of the book in which

25 it appears, according to what Mr. Coric says, that this is no longer

1 claimed. So what do you say about that? Why did you accuse him of such

2 acts in the book whereas in other paragraphs you say that he in fact

3 wasn't responsible for this destruction?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the magazine Samurai, which is a

5 sports magazine which is published in Croatia, in an interview with

6 Mr. Coric he says that he was responsible for the bridges, the roads, et

7 cetera. And since I know that he was the technical director of the

8 bauxite mine and he had access to industrial explosives, and since I know

9 that he boasted about having his engineer units, his own engineer units,

10 and that the HVO was responsible for some of the bridges. Naturally this

11 magazine exists, this interview exists, and that's what he stated. That's

12 how I can interpret this.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Coric. Let's try and

14 deal with this briefly and rapidly.

15 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] I will try to. In his book,

16 Mr. Cupina refers to my interview in Zagreb. Mr. Cupina doesn't know what

17 it means to blow up or to clear off mines, and that's not his profession

18 so I'm not surprised, although he was a high-ranking military commander.

19 So he doesn't know what to mine and demine means.

20 In the region where I was in Herzegovina before the conflict broke

21 out, we mined an area. We planted some explosives under some bridges,

22 some tunnels in the Neretva valley, some parts of the water supply in the

23 area of Western Herzegovina. So we did lay some explosives, some mines as

24 a preparatory measure. If the aggressor used tanks to head in our

25 direction, we would have ignited this. We would have used the explosives.

1 Fortunately, this was not necessary, so we did not destroy anything. To

2 destroy something is one thing, to mine something is another thing, to

3 demine something is yet another thing.

4 Thank you, Mr. Cupina. I hope you have understood this.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, what is your

6 response to what the accused has said?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by what I said. They acted

8 in this way and they blew things up, because the first bridge in the

9 direction of Jablanica was blown up, and then the bridge at Bijela was

10 blown up, et cetera. And this was done as the aggressor exerted pressure.

11 I'm not saying that the HVO blew up all the bridges, but we know more or

12 less which ones were blown up by the HVO and which ones by the

13 Serbo-Chetniks. The Orthodox church was also blown up by the HVO, and

14 there's video footage of this which I provided to the state security,

15 because it's impossible for --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but we're talking about

17 bridges for the moment. There's a question for you.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Witness,

19 you're a witness for the Chamber, not just for the Bench -- not just for

20 the Prosecution now, and we want to establish the truth. We would like to

21 know if there is a link between the accused Coric and the charges against

22 him, the destruction that you have referred to. Unfortunately, I haven't

23 read your book. I don't know what the contents of your book is and I

24 think that is also the case for the other Judges on the Bench, but in

25 support of your accusations in the book, you say you used to a certain

1 extent the Prosecution's indictment. You wanted to use the indictment for

2 the sake of legal terminology. But you also say that you based your book

3 on the interview that the accused gave with regard to his military

4 knowledge about mining, demining of bridges and of public buildings.

5 So my question is as follows: Apart from the indictment from

6 which you obtained the relevant legal terminology and the interview or the

7 interviews that the accused gave with regard to his military knowledge,

8 did you use any other sources that allowed you to establish the

9 responsibility of the accused Coric with regard to the destruction that

10 you referred to in your book or was this not the case?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had knowledge, information I

12 obtained on a private basis from people, from soldiers. I supported this

13 information by referring to the Samurai magazine. I'm not saying that

14 only he acted in this way. The HVO acted in this way. He participated,

15 but he accused himself in the Samurai magazine.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We don't have much

17 time left. Are there any other members of the Defence who would like to

18 conduct cross-examination?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: There are, Your Honour, and there is no way that we

20 can finish in any considerable time. I have about 15 or 20 minutes. I

21 could probably do 15. As I understand, Ms. Alaburic has about 20 minutes,

22 and Mr. Kovacic has about 15 or 20 minutes. So there's -- I don't see how

23 we can --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, how much time has

25 Defence counsel taken up in total so far, since at the beginning of the

1 hearing it was quite clear we were supposed to adjourn at 5.15. Since we

2 were 15 minutes late, we've worked until 5.30 p.m., so we should really be

3 concluding now. Mr. Registrar.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: That's true, Your Honour. That's true. However,

5 we must keep in mind that the witness has not been terribly responsive. I

6 for one would move that that his entire testimony be stricken from the

7 record. That would be my preference, not to go any further, just send the

8 gentleman home and strike the entire testimony from the record. I know my

9 colleagues feel the same way.

10 But just picking up on the last issue, perhaps he can ask us -- he

11 can tell us how it is that other witnesses said the bridges were destroyed

12 in 1992 by the Serbs. The gentleman has been confabulating. He's been

13 uncontrollable, both on direct and cross-examination, and I think that was

14 one of the reasons why we're running over time.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, just a minute. We will

16 give you ten minutes each for your cross-examination.

17 Mr. Karnavas, you have ten minutes, please go ahead.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I think Ms. Alaburic is going to go next.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you wish.

20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, my name is Vesna Alaburic. I'm a

23 lawyer from Zagreb, and I represent General Milivoj Petkovic, whom you

24 didn't mention in your statement nor did you mention him in your testimony

25 yesterday or today apart from the fact that you said that he was a

1 co-signatory of a peace agreement with Sefer Halilovic. So I have very

2 few questions for you in fact.

3 I'd like to clarify certain circumstances. Today and yesterday

4 you said that the only meeting that concerned an exchange of prisoners

5 that you attended and that was held with representatives of the HVO was on

6 the 25th of May, 1993. Is that correct?

7 A. There were a number of meetings.

8 Q. And tell us, how is it that you haven't described those other

9 meetings in your report? In your report you only mentioned the meeting of

10 the 25th of May.

11 A. Well, probably because they weren't very effective. There was

12 nothing to write about.

13 Q. So can you then tell us when these other meetings were held?

14 A. I really can't remember. I mentioned this in the report but all

15 of this happened a long time ago so I can't remember.

16 Q. Could we then agree that what you have claimed so far is

17 incorrect? You said that the only meeting that you attended that

18 concerned this subject was on the 25th of May.

19 A. No. I said that was one of the meetings where such matters were

20 discussed where the principle of all for all was discussed.

21 Q. Very well. So Mr. Pusic's Defence showed you a document today,

22 6D 0006. That's a document dated the 28th of May, 1993. You signed the

23 document, and this document establishes a commission responsible for

24 releasing prisoners -- missing prisoners and civilians and for exchanging

25 them. Do you remember that?

1 A. Yes. It was shown to me.

2 Q. If this commission was established on the 28th of May, in that

3 case on whose behalf did you attend a meeting three days earlier on the

4 25th of May?

5 A. Well, that's something you can find in the report.

6 Q. Let's forget about the report and that record. It mentions a

7 negotiating team of the ABiH and the HVO. I'm referring to the commission

8 now. Can you explain this? If not, just say so. The commission was

9 established on the 28th of May, 1993, and you attended a meeting as a

10 member of the commission, a meeting that was held three days earlier. If

11 you can't explain that, we can move on to another subject.

12 A. I have explained that in my report, but people change. The

13 composition of these bodies changed. I said there were more people than

14 that number mentioned in the commission.

15 Q. Very well. I conclude that you can't say on whose behalf you

16 attended the meeting on the 25th of May since the commission was

17 established on the 28th of May and not before. My following question is:

18 According to your information, Mr. Cupina, this commission established on

19 the 28th of May, was it the first ABiH commission that cooperated with the

20 HVO in respect of releasing and exchanging prisoners?

21 A. I haven't understood your question.

22 Q. Before this commission was established, was there some other

23 commission in existence or is this the first one?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Do you know anything at all about the exchanges of prisoners up

1 until the 25th of May when you attended the meeting?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know anything about exchange of prisoners after the 21st of

4 June, 1993, which is the last day that your report refers to?

5 A. With that report, I wrapped up all my activities. I provided the

6 report to the superiors.

7 Q. So you don't know anything about that. You mentioned an agreement

8 of my -- between my client Petkovic and the ABiH commander, Sefer

9 Halilovic. This agreement can be shown to you if necessary. The

10 Prosecutor showed it to you. P 002344 is the number of the document. I

11 assume that you remember it and that it's not necessary for us to show it

12 to you again on the screen.

13 Would you agree with me that this agreement concerns the entire

14 area under HVO and ABiH control?

15 A. I assume that that's the case.

16 Q. As far as you can remember, did that agreement cover a number of

17 subjects? For example, freedom of movement, deployment of UNPROFOR,

18 withdrawal of armed forces, and other subjects?

19 A. Well, as far as I know, it covered all those subjects, all those

20 areas, but I didn't attend that meeting so I can't really say.

21 Q. But you can remember the contents of the agreement. Would you

22 agree with me if I said that this agreement was implemented in the zones

23 of responsibility of various corps of the ABiH or, rather, in the

24 operative zones of the HVO?

25 A. I only know about the zone of responsibility that I was in. I

1 don't know anything about the other zones.

2 Q. Did Sefer Halilovic participate in the work of your commission?

3 A. What do you mean?

4 Q. Did he participate in any capacity in the work of your commission?

5 A. Do you mean in Mostar?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. As far as I know, he didn't. He was in Mostar.

8 Q. I thank you. I do apologise. Could we show the witness the

9 following document: P 002512. It's a Prosecution exhibit.

10 This is Prosecution Exhibit P 002512. Could we have a look at the

11 midsection of the document. Could we scroll down a bit, please. Thank

12 you.

13 Mr. Cupina, I'm only interested in the first line under item 2,

14 the liberation, the release of all civilians who for security reasons are

15 in shelters and buildings, in areas where there is combat activity.

16 Please answer the following question: Would you agree with me if I said

17 that certain individuals were placed in shelters and other buildings for

18 security reasons, as stated in this record of the meeting of the

19 negotiations team?

20 A. Well, they -- the two sides managed to reach this agreement.

21 That's what it says.

22 Q. Is this what happened? You've signed this. I'd like to remind

23 you of the fact.

24 A. Yes, this is what was agreed.

25 Q. Thank you very much. In the document that you were shown by the

1 Prosecution - and I'd like to show this document to the witness - the

2 document is P 00619.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To avoid confusion, you

4 mentioned the civilians who were placed in shelters, et cetera, for

5 various reasons. I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that there

6 is a paragraph 1 which also mentions civilians who were imprisoned.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If that is an objection to me, I

8 know what it says under item 1, but I wanted to clarify what is stated

9 under item 2.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but when a question is put

11 to the witness, it's necessary to present a full question to the witness,

12 to deal with all the aspects of the question and not just with one aspect,

13 so that in the transcript we now see just that civilians were placed in

14 shelters for security reasons.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Since this document hasn't been

16 shown to the witness for the first time but certain parts of this

17 agreement have already been discussed, I thought that it was only

18 necessary to refer to one of the items, namely that there were civilians

19 who had been placed in certain buildings for security reasons. As for the

20 civilians who were in prisons, I thought that --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 Q. So the document that has been shown to you by the Prosecution,

24 P 00619, is a document -- so as not to waste any time, it is an analysis

25 of the actual state of government in the municipality of Mostar, and

1 Mr. Cupina, you said that you participated in drafting this document, in a

2 certain sense, because the person who is the author of the document came

3 to your flat, you discussed this document, and on page number 3, in the

4 middle of page number 3 -- could we see the B/C/S version of the text,

5 please or, rather, could we see the Bosniak version.

6 P 01619. That is not it. This is the document analysis of the

7 current situation, government situation, in the municipality of Mostar. I

8 presume that Mr. Cupina will recall this part: On -- in the middle of the

9 second page it is stated that the Bosniak people as the majority people in

10 B and H are committed to a sovereign and undivided Republic of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina.

12 Mr. Cupina, I should like to know what this adjective "undivided"

13 means for you. Does it presuppose a unitary set-up of Bosnia-Herzegovina

14 without any territorial entities which would claim some sort of autonomy

15 or have the characteristics of a republic or something else?

16 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina within its AVNOJ boundaries.

17 JUDGE PRANDLER: Actually, Ms. Alaburic, I am very sorry for that,

18 but I have to remind you that you have used more than -- about 12 minutes.

19 So although the Bench was of course very flexible when we decided to give

20 you, each of you, ten more minutes, but also in view of the interpreters,

21 et cetera, I would kindly ask you to finish now and to give the time also

22 to -- other counsel as well. Thank you very much.

23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour. I shall

24 not be asking any further questions, but may I just ask the record to

25 state what it was that I wanted to ask about. I wished to place -- put a

1 question about the distinction of Bosnia and Herzegovina as an undivided,

2 i.e., composite, complex state, a state which would have states within a

3 state within its AVNOJ borders.

4 I also wanted to ask questions about documents signed by Mr. Alija

5 Izetbegovic and according to which the HVO is an equally legal military

6 force as the army of the B and H, and I also wanted to ask questions about

7 the alleged military putsch.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, with regard to

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina undivided.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This refers to -- just to Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in accordance with the

12 legal -- with the constitution and the valid laws. The republic within

13 AVNOJ borders.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next counsel.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I have

16 to say that I will cede my time to my colleague simply because of the fact

17 that the -- that the witness never referred directly to my client in his

18 statement, but I should like to ask the Court also --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] -- I think that the -- this witness

21 has today committed the offence, the criminal offence of perjury and that

22 his testimony should be viewed from that standpoint and adequate measures

23 taken and not simply just not attribute adequate weight to his statement.

24 I believe it is quite evident that the witness simply does not know some

25 things and when he does know some things he just refrains from stating his

1 knowledge, and that is perjury in my book. Thank you.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

4 Q. Mr. Cupina, you gave a statement back in January, 2004; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it was after that you gave your statement that you published

8 your book; is that right?

9 A. In January, 2006.

10 Q. All right. So your book came after your interview; right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And were you preparing your book at the time that you gave the

13 statement or was it after you gave the statement that you began writing

14 your book?

15 A. I talked to journalists. I gave an interview to the Vecernje

16 Novine in Sarajevo --

17 Q. I'm going to stop you here. My question was very precise. Now,

18 you claim to be a university graduate -- claim. So tell me: Did you

19 begin to write the book after you gave the statement? It's "yes," "no,"

20 "I don't know," "I can't remember," "maybe"; any of the five.

21 A. First I gave statements to the effect that I was writing a book.

22 Q. When you gave the statement, sir, back in January, 2004, had you

23 already begun writing your book or did you write your book afterwards?

24 A. I had prepared the book. Before that I was waiting for adequate

25 financial conditions to be able to proceed.

1 Q. All right. So let me make sure I understand this clearly: You

2 had written the book prior to giving your statement in 2004, and you were

3 waiting for financial conditions so you could publish this book with your

4 own money. Is that your testimony?

5 A. Exactly.

6 Q. Okay. So you would have written the book, then, prior to the

7 indictment; right? Because you make references to the indictment here.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you say "prepared," you

9 mean prepared intellectually or had you already drafted some pages?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just put together the events, and

11 I composed it. Actually, what I had at that period was -- in that period

12 was my prepared notes and the compilation of documents. I had everything

13 prepared in that sense.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I -- sorry. I must insist to have this quite

16 clear. You had prepared all the material but you had not written the

17 text?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The text was written in 1993 and

19 1994, in the columns which were published in the papers, and later on I

20 expanded and amplified on those text in the later years, and I elaborated

21 on them.

22 MR. KARNAVAS:

23 Q. By the way, when you met with the Prosecutors, you didn't inform

24 them about your text, did you? That's a yes or a no.

25 A. No.

1 Q. All right. And I noticed that one of the reviewers of the text

2 was mentioned earlier, but just to make sure who is credited, is the

3 mufti, the Mufti Smajkic, who is rather a very vocal person in the Muslim

4 community in Mostar; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I take it before coming here you met with the mufti, he of course

7 knowing that you were going to come and testify, since you already had

8 made announcements to that in the press as part of the promotion of your

9 book. Is that a yes or a no? It's a yes or a no.

10 A. The mufti is a friend of mine, and I meet with him every now and

11 then.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. We see each other very often.

14 Q. And I take it you met with him before coming here today?

15 A. Yes. I was at this promotion in Mostar.

16 Q. But you met with him -- you met with him before coming here to The

17 Hague, prior to coming to testify. Okay [Microphone not activated].

18 A. No. No, I haven't seen him since the promotion.

19 Q. Now, was it you who contacted the Prosecution or did they contact

20 you in order to give a statement?

21 A. Well, as far as I can remember, they called me.

22 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go -- I want to show you your statement, and

23 I apologise for not having this all ready in the e-court, but I have a --

24 one copy for you to look at in your language, and I have one for the ELMO,

25 and I believe the number we should give it is 1D 00527. And if we could

1 just put the front page on the ELMO.

2 And, sir, if you could look at it. Look at the front page and

3 then look at the back page and tell us whether you recognise this document

4 and whether that is indeed your signature.

5 A. That is my signature.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you have the one -- the one that you're looking at,

7 sir, that's in your language; is that correct? The one that's on the ELMO

8 is in English. The one in front of you should be in B/C/S. Do you see

9 it, sir?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Now, if we could look at page 2, and that would be page 3 in

12 yours. In the English, it would be page -- page 2 for the ELMO, that is.

13 In yours it would be page 3. I would like you to look at paragraphs 7 and

14 8, and then 8 to 9. If you could just look at them.

15 On paragraph 7 we have the date -- it starts with "From 19

16 September 1991." Do you see that, sir?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Then if you go to paragraph 8, we see 1 April, 1992. Do you see

19 that, sir? Paragraph 8. Just tell me if -- is it -- does it -- okay.

20 Thank you.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. Then we skip to paragraph 9. It says between 9 May and 28 May,

23 1993. Is that how yours starts as well in B/C/S? Look at your copy, sir.

24 Okay.

25 A. It is. It is.

1 Q. Okay. All right. It would be fair to say that there's nothing in

2 between April, 1992, and 9 May, at least if we're looking at this document

3 in a chronological order. You provide no information - zero - to the

4 investigators there, who were there, according to you, contacting you for

5 information about the events that you were participating in from 1991 to

6 1993 or 1994; correct? Now --

7 A. I didn't get your question, no.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... now, if you could just go

9 through the pages. Just flip through the pages, sir, and tell me if

10 there's anything for the period between April, 1992, and May, 1993,

11 anywhere that you describe anything that you were involved in. Just --

12 you can just flip through the pages.

13 A. No, there's nothing like that in this document, in this document.

14 Q. All right. And yet at the time -- at the time when the

15 investigators came, sir, they came to talk to you about those events,

16 right, 1992 to 1993? Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And they wanted you to tell them everything that you knew of that

19 period. And from what you told us, your memory might have been -- would

20 have been quite fresh because you were preparing your book, hence my

21 earlier questions locking the witness in; correct?

22 A. Yes. Correct.

23 Q. Okay. Now, if you go the appropriate paragraph, and I'm just

24 going to deal with Mr. Prlic, although I might touch on Mr. Coric just to

25 be fair to the gentleman, but on Mr. Prlic, if we could go to paragraph

1 36, I want you to look at that, and if I could have Madam Usher's

2 assistance that would be on page 7. For you, sir, it would be page -- it

3 would be page -- page 11. And I want to focus on this, because today you

4 told us -- you answered the question, the specific question posed to you

5 by the Prosecutor. But first if we look at this paragraph, you talk about

6 Mr. Prlic being in the Alliance for Special Purposes; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Yes. Special Purposes Council.

10 Q. Okay. And then you go on to talk about knowing him through sports

11 to some extent; correct? And that he followed the football club Velez;

12 correct?

13 A. Lokomotiva, in fact, as far as I remember.

14 Q. This is what you're saying here. And then if you look at the last

15 three lines, he says he was very straight that Mostar should be Croat

16 dominated. "I didn't see him between May and September, 1993. Now I see

17 him as president of the pro-European party. He is here in Sarajevo all

18 the time." That's what you say; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Now, there's nothing in the statement as far as what

21 you told us here today - and I'm quoting - I'm going to go to page 37 of

22 today's transcript. You say today that you met him in Siroki Brijeg.

23 Nothing in your statement about seeing him in Siroki Brijeg; correct?

24 Okay.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And for the record, that was on line 22. Now, if we go to line

2 24, you say that you had -- in a conversation, he told you that this area

3 would be called Herceg-Bosna. Nothing in your statement there either, is

4 there? Okay.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That there would be -- this is on line 25, page 37, again today's

7 transcript: "There would be a parastate within a state." Nothing in your

8 statement about that; right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. "And the HVO were the only representatives in the area." This is

11 on page 28, line 1. Nothing in your statement about that. Correct?

12 A. Well if there isn't, there isn't.

13 Q. Okay. We're going to go step-by-step, sir. I just want to nail

14 this one down. "He said things to the effect that we as Muslims had no

15 claim that we could make." Nothing in your statement about that, is

16 there? There's no sense in -- I'm looking at that paragraph, sir. You

17 can look through the rest of the statement but you won't find it there,

18 will you? Will you, sir?

19 A. I can't look through it quickly.

20 Q. Sir --

21 A. I can't go through the --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. -- report quickly.

24 Q. Sir, in paragraph 36 you, with all your degrees, is it in there?

25 Is it in paragraph 36? And we'll have -- the court will be provided with

1 the entire document, so in case I'm lying, they'll catch me. Nothing in

2 there where Prlic says to you things to the effect, "We as Muslims have no

3 claim that we could make." Nothing there, sir, is there? Sir, there's

4 nothing in there, is there?

5 A. In this text, there isn't, no. Not in this text here.

6 Q. Okay. And when you gave your statement when things were fresh in

7 your mind and things were percolating because you were getting ready or

8 you had already started writing your book, okay, you didn't say anything

9 to the effect that Prlic said that "we should go to our enclave. I think

10 he mentioned Zenica, Sarajevo, et cetera." Nothing in your statement

11 about is there, sir? Nothing in your statement about that, is there, sir?

12 A. Well, this statement has been compiled in such a way --

13 Q. Sir --

14 A. But I know that that happened.

15 Q. Sir, listen to me: Is it in your statement? It's a yes or a no,

16 or maybe, maybe the investigator from the Prosecution was so unfair to you

17 or incompetent they just failed to put it in. Which of it is it? Isn't

18 it a fact, sir that you never said any of that to the investigator when

19 they came to see you back in January, 2004? Sir, it's not in your

20 statement, is it?

21 A. It doesn't say that here, but --

22 Q. Sir, are you claiming today, sir, that you said it and that the

23 investigator failed to put it in? Is that what you're claiming here

24 today? Because we'll call the investigator.

25 A. What, you mean for the series, for the articles, the columns?

1 Q. Sir, listen to me.

2 A. I'm not sure I was following you.

3 Q. Is it in your statement? When you were questioned by the

4 investigator, did you say any of the lies that you told us here today

5 under oath that Prlic said to you?

6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, again I'm going to object. Going --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas --

8 MR. SCOTT: -- beyond that, Your Honour, I've tried to let this go

9 on and give a wide latitude --

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, is it in the statement?

11 MR. SCOTT: No.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Is it?

13 MR. SCOTT: The witness says in paragraph 36, just in fairness, in

14 fairness to the witness: "I had several contacts with Prlic on issues in

15 Mostar." "I had several contacts on issues in Mostar." This was during

16 1992, by the way, 1992, not just 1993, and 1993. "We knew each other and

17 were talking about different political views. He was very straight that

18 Mostar should be Croat dominated."

19 Now, that may be all that the investigator wrote down at the time.

20 Maybe Mr. -- maybe Mr. Karnavas wants to take issue with the investigator

21 who prepared this statement, but I do not think it's -- it's fair to make

22 these kind of categorical assertions against the witness based on --

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Hence our letter yesterday -- hence our letter

24 yesterday, Your Honour. When you send an investigator out there and you

25 don't take a tape-recorded statement, you see, we're having it both ways.

1 Now they're claiming that the witness said these things --

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour --

3 MR. KARNAVAS: -- and the investigator failed to put it in.

4 MR. SCOTT: -- Mr. Karnavas knows that it is not the standard --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Mr. Karnavas.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll move on, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your question? What

8 question do you wish to ask?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Whether any of the things that he said here today

10 are in the statement that he gave back in January 20th, 2004, when he

11 claims to have written all this book and had all this knowledge

12 percolating in his head. Is it in his statement? Is it there? Yes or

13 no. That's a simple question.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, there are a lot of

15 things that were raised during the two days of testimony here.

16 Mr. Prlic's counsel is putting it to you that when you -- on the 20th of

17 January, 2004, you did not tell the investigator about those elements. So

18 what do you have to say to us today? Did you tell the investigator who

19 then failed to record it or did you not say anything like that to him?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the investigator put all my

21 answers into a single sentence and formulated it in one sentence.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you want to say that

23 everything you've been saying here and could have said here over the past

24 two days you told the investigator who summarised it in just a few

25 sentences?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's roughly it. We spent

2 days talking. Well, I don't know how many days, but we spent a long time

3 discussing everything. I know that we had a long conversation just as

4 we're having a long -- well, it seems that I'm in the dock now here.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So to the best of your

6 recollections, you did not hide anything from the investigator or omit

7 anything.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I don't think I

9 hid anything. I talked and they put it into sentence form. I didn't

10 write the sentences myself.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, we have to wind up

12 now.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. Thank you. Now, the gentleman said that he

14 spoke for days. He only spoke for one day to the investigator, so I put

15 to the witness that he's lying right now. That he just committed perjury,

16 because here it's one day, not days.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many days did the interview

18 last with the investigator; one day or a number of days?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that I contacted them over a

20 period of several days, but on that one day I remember it was a very, very

21 long day for me. We went on for the whole day. Now, how many days I

22 can't really say. They kept calling me up for something, but I can't

23 pinpoint the duration in terms of time, whether they asked me because of

24 the statement or because of our contacts, but I know that I spent a whole

25 long day over there. And they kept calling me up as well. I know that it

1 was very hard on me to contend with all this with all the other business I

2 had to attend to. It was very difficult for me to concentrate and focus.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I have one other area, Your Honour. I'll skip

4 through most of the other areas.

5 Q. You were shown a document earlier, a document that was generated

6 by the Prosecution --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before you ask the question, we

8 have seven more minutes on the tape, and we have to finish in five minutes

9 to replace the tape.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying. I'm trying. Okay.

11 Q. I want to go back to a document that was brought up by the

12 Prosecution and it was referenced by Ms. Nozica. It's P 1530. This was a

13 document generated back in 1993. If we could pull it up on the -- on the

14 e-court. But just -- and while this is being done, this was a document

15 and you were shown paragraph 2. In this particular paragraph and further

16 on, you're being accused of being a collaborator with the HVO security and

17 information service; is that correct?

18 A. No, it is not correct.

19 Q. Sir --

20 A. What you say is not correct.

21 Q. Okay. I'll just read it, then, and then you tell me what part is

22 -- whether this says this or not. I'm not saying that you were a

23 collaborator - only you would know that - but you're being accused as

24 being a collaborator. Would you agree with me on that? And if we flip to

25 the last page, it's Arif Pasalic who is accusing you of being a

1 collaborator. Would you agree with me that in this document you're being

2 accused of having collaborated and worked with the security services of

3 HVO? Is that a yes or no?

4 A. I did not collaborate, but Pasalic mentioned me in the Mostar

5 daily as one of the most deserving individuals for the BH army --

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we'll read the paragraph

7 then. "Going to army of BH staff -- BiH staff with Suad Cupina, who was

8 commander of the Independent Mostar Battalion in the period between

9 24/09/1992, and 09/05/1992, when he lost left bank of the Neretva River in

10 fights against Chetniks and when his battalion fell apart. After that he

11 went to HVO Croatian Defence Council staff of his own initiative, working

12 allegedly as a coordinator. He started to closely cooperate with HVO SIS

13 security and information services along with Nozic, Celebic, Djukic,

14 former BiH MUP -- MUP members for quite some time, members of HVO SIS.

15 Suad Cupina suffered self-inflicted wounds in the month of June,"

16 and then, I'll skip down, further down in the same page in English, it

17 says, "He went to Sarajevo with Djuka's help and returned to Mostar from

18 Sarajevo with army staff documents stating that he was military police

19 commander for Herzegovina. At that time, I asked him to organise military

20 police in 1st MO brigade but he did nothing of a sort. He was still in

21 contact with his uncle and members of HVO SIS. He and his uncle appeared

22 on media such as HTV, the Croatian television, Radio Mostar, and HVO

23 stations. He denied army of BiH staff, emphasise that Mate Boban and his

24 uncle armed people in Mostar and that these were HVO equipment and

25 weapons. He referred to people from Sarajevo as plibigi [phoen],"

1 "wannabe" and so on. Now, do you see that sir? Do you see that, sir?

2 A. May I be allowed to interpret?

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to change the tape

4 and then we'll hear the answer when a new tape is put in place. So we can

5 stay in the courtroom. It will take four or five minutes to change the

6 tape, and then we can proceed.

7 [Discussion off the record]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can now resume.

9 Mr. Cupina, but there was something we wanted to clarify first of

10 all.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: There's something I'm amazed no one, and you

12 haven't taken it up, because you've read it yourself. We have a period

13 here which lasts from 24th of September, 1992, to the 9th of May, 1992.

14 Maybe we're all a bit tired but it seems to be rather strange because that

15 goes backwards.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe -- I believe --

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's the same in the original, by the way.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, and I believe that Ms. Nozica

19 had corrected that when she introduced the document that indicated that

20 perhaps it was a -- a typo. If I -- if I am -- unless any memory serves

21 me incorrectly, but I believe she pointed that out and I think the English

22 has to mirror whatever errors might there be on the document, but thank

23 you.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Cupina, you heard me read this portion, but let me

25 continue, in fairness to you. It says, "He and his uncle appeared on

1 media ..." and it goes on, and he said -- so in any event I want to ask

2 you a question: Now are you denying that -- or are you claiming that

3 Mr. Pasalic is providing false information or fabricating or lying? Is he

4 incorrect? It's a yes or no.

5 A. We say that the late General Pasalic -- well, we say all the best

6 about the dead, because he's now deceased, but this report is not

7 consistent, it's not correct, because on the 14th of February - may I

8 continue - 1993, I --

9 Q. I understand [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. -- I took instructions from the government --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. -- and that was why --

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

14 A. -- this was --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

16 A. -- stated.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... misstating the facts. That's

18 your answer. He is not to be believed in this particular report. That's

19 your -- okay.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So when he says later on, on paragraph 4: "Radio Sarajevo aired

22 that Mr. Suad Cupina and Hujdur and Hondjo were awarded with Golden Lily

23 by army of BiH staff ..." and then he goes on to say: "This action has

24 negative effect on the 1st Motorised Brigade and all other 4th Corps units

25 because the 4th Corps did not suggest it or even was aware of it."

1 Now, was his assessment correct that awarding you the Golden Lily

2 was unwarranted and that it would -- and it should not have been awarded

3 and would have negative effect on the morale? Was he incorrect on that as

4 well?

5 A. May I explain this briefly?

6 Q. No, no, just answer the question. Was he incorrect when he

7 said --

8 A. He wasn't right.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you.

10 A. Because I received this from the JNA. I took him in from the JNA

11 into the Independent Battalion. He was an advisor of mine in the

12 Independent Battalion.

13 Q. Okay. And I want to make sure that I understood you correctly.

14 You took him in, then he became the general. So he was your advisor.

15 Pasalic was your advisor. I just -- that's a yes or a no. Was he your

16 advisor?

17 A. I can't answer this briefly. Allow me to explain this. On the

18 26th of April, 1992, he came to Mostar from the JNA. Mr. Pasalic arrived

19 in Mostar. He joined the Independent Battalion, and he was my advisor for

20 military affairs, and later he took over my position in the Independent

21 Battalion.

22 Q. I just have one last point of clarification. On page 50, you were

23 asked a question by Mr. -- today, I think it was by -- by Ms. Nozica, it

24 was, "Mr. Cupina what did the stamp of the Independent Battalion look

25 like?" This is page 50, line 4. And this is what you say on line 6: "At

1 the beginning, there was the lily, the lily insignia, and later on the

2 HVO, so as to play up to the HVO, because they didn't allow us to receive

3 MTS materiel, and technical equipment, food, and all the rest. They

4 threatened to leave Mostar, to pull out of Mostar, if we didn't comply and

5 that they'd leave us to the Serbs or Chetniks to kill us all, and then

6 they would return to Mostar after that."

7 Now, I just want to make sure I heard you correctly. Here you're

8 stating that the that the HVO threatened to leave. Now, where were they

9 going to go? Where did they threaten to go to? Just -- if you know the

10 place.

11 A. To the peaks in the direction of Siroki Brijeg, because Boban was

12 in Graz at the time, and then there was an attack on the town of Mostar on

13 the 9th of May, an all-out attack.

14 Q. Okay. So --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, please conclude.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It wasn't Graz, it

19 was Gradac.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

21 Q. Now, they would leave Mostar, the HVO would leave, would pull back

22 so that the Chetniks could take over Mostar and then all of you would be

23 killed, and then they would be coming back. That's your testimony here

24 today. I just want to be crystal clear on this.

25 A. That's how it was, and there was a reconnaissance company, the

1 commander was Alan Zubic from Bjelovar, and he said that the HVO had let

2 the Independent Battalion down. You have those documents.

3 Q. Very well. But you're claiming today that the HVO threatened to

4 leave. That would be Mostar, both east and west. They would just leave

5 Mostar so that the Chetniks could take over. That's your testimony, as

6 ridiculous as it may sound.

7 A. Yes, that's what I said.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Cupina, before we adjourn,

10 not long ago one member of the Defence said quite clearly, and this is in

11 the transcript, that you have given false testimony. You have taken the

12 solemn declaration. You have said you will tell the truth and nothing but

13 truth. Can you tell us whether in replying to the questions put to you by

14 the Prosecution, Defence counsel, and Judges, you have lied? So what

15 would be your reply to that? Did you do this knowingly?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never lied, never in my life.

17 I'm well known throughout Europe as a sportsman, an honourable sportsman,

18 and I've never deceived anyone. This would never cross my mind. No one

19 can say that I've never deceived them or cheated them.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, with regard to this

21 very precise issue, do you have any additional questions that you would

22 like to put to the witness, given that the Defence has put this witness's

23 credibility into question?

24 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, there's no adequate opportunity to deal

25 with it at this point. I have a number of comments I would like to

1 address the Court to. It's a shame that I suppose now it will have to

2 wait until we sit again in August, but I'm -- I'm very seriously concerned

3 about the way things -- some of the way things are being done, but I have

4 no opportunity, meaningful opportunity now to address this witness

5 further. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Cupina, this

7 concludes your testimony. You've answered the questions put to you by

8 both parties. We thank you for that, and I will now ask the usher to

9 escort you out of the courtroom and I wish you a safe trip home.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and thank

11 you for everything you have done for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we have a look at our

14 schedule for the future, the Chamber would like to render an oral

15 decision.

16 On the 3rd of July, last -- on 3rd of July, Mr. Kovacic asked the

17 Chamber, the Bench to ask the Prosecution to provide them with a list of

18 witnesses that they intend to call before the recess, as well as the

19 charts that they intend to use for each witness. Mrs. Alaburic supported

20 this motion. The Bench has examined this request and in the interest of

21 justice and in order to allow the Defence to prepare themselves adequately

22 for their cross-examination, the Judges order the Prosecution to provide

23 the Chamber, the Bench, and the Defence before the 28th of July, 2006,

24 with a list of witnesses that they intend to call in the month of August

25 and September as well as with the charts that concern these witnesses.

1 So for the hearings that will be held in August and September,

2 it's necessary for the Prosecution to provide us with a list of witnesses

3 and with the proofing charts for these witnesses. So you have until the

4 28th of July to comply with this request.

5 Mr. Scott, apart from this oral decision, I know that there is a

6 witness who has been scheduled for the 17th of August when we resume with

7 our hearings, and then there are other witnesses who should be called as

8 of the 21st of August; is that correct?

9 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Might we go very briefly into --

10 just so I don't say some witness's name incorrectly -- into private

11 session.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private

13 session.

14 [Private session]

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11 Pages 5055-5056 redacted. Private session.

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we're in open session,

24 the Chamber grants the request of the Prosecution, extends the deadline

25 for the proofing charts and the witness lists by one week. So it won't be

1 on the 28th of July. It's not by that date that you have to provide these

2 documents but one week later.

3 In addition the Chamber would like to ask the Prosecution and

4 Defence to meet as soon as possible to see whether a big map of the

5 relevant sites could be placed in the courtroom. This would allow us to

6 have a visual idea of the sites referred to. I said that a long time ago,

7 but it seems that we forgot about this. If the Defence wishes to have

8 such a map, suggest that a certain map be used, suggest this to the

9 Prosecution, try to reach an agreement, and the Chamber will be quite

10 happy to see such a map kept in the courtroom on a permanent basis.

11 Mr. Scott, is there anything else you would like to say?

12 MR. SCOTT: Yes, briefly because I'm not sure how soon people are

13 planning to leave The Hague. We expect, as of tomorrow morning, to have

14 -- to be able to place in the lockers a number -- I don't know,

15 approximately 77 B/C/S translations of the Spanish documents. As you may

16 recall that issue, and we're doing our best to do as many of those

17 translations as possible from Spanish to B/C/S, and a large number of

18 those should be available in the lockers as of tomorrow morning.

19 Your Honour, just on the map. I'll be happy to look at whatever

20 Mr. Kovacic has. I will tell you, based on my experience and the other

21 experience of other trial teams, no matter how large a map you put against

22 this wall, from the Bench you will not be able to see any significant

23 amount of detail, with all respect. I know the -- perhaps with

24 binoculars. We did, Your Honour, and if I might say with a certain amount

25 of pride on behalf of the Prosecution team, the Chamber may recall that we

1 submitted a booklet maps at the very beginning, which, frankly, I think

2 could be quite helpful, but again, I'll look at any map that Mr. Kovacic

3 wants to show me, but my experience is if you put a map anywhere back here

4 and you try any level of detail, you will not be able to see it, Your

5 Honours. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I just have one matter to bring up, Your Honour.

8 This is with respect to Mr. Scott's oral motion concerning Mr. Mesic on

9 the 92 bis. I just wanted to supplement the record as an oral response,

10 unless the Prosecution intends to also file a written response, I just

11 wanted to go on the record and say --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, as far as this is

13 concerned, I wanted to deal with this issue.

14 Mr. Scott, it would be appropriate to file a written motion, a

15 reasoned written motion that the Defence will respond to it in writing and

16 the Chamber will then render a decision in writing. A written decision.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I anticipate filing that application

18 tomorrow. If not tomorrow, Thursday at the latest.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues] ... although I'm

21 disappointed we couldn't get a withdrawal of the oral motion and then just

22 bring in Mr. Mesic, but that's fine, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you will file

24 this application and the Defence will have the usual time to respond to

25 the motion, to the application, and then the Chamber will render a written

1 decision concerning this matter. It's a matter that merits a written

2 decision.

3 Yes, Mr. Murphy.

4 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, on that same subject the Defence has

5 today filed a response to another Prosecution motion under 92 bis. I will

6 not name the witness since we're in open session. I would just like to

7 mention that it is a joint Defence response. We've been able to do that

8 jointly. Partly for that reason it does mean that we have somewhat

9 exceeded the normal page limit for such responses, but obviously it would

10 be shorter than if we filed them individually and would the Court please

11 grant us leave to have done that and to have exceeded the page limit?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, I turn to the

13 parties to deal with -- with admitting documents into evidence.

14 Mr. Scott, which documents would you like to tender into evidence?

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution in

16 connection with this last witness would -- tenders the following

17 documents: Exhibit P 00054 -- I'm sorry? Sorry, Your Honour. I'm told

18 that we didn't -- strike that.

19 P 00219, P 00229, P 00485, P 00488, P 00490, P 01376, P 01619,

20 P 02344, P 02507, P 02512, P 02882, P 02884, P 02897, P 09044, which I

21 think -- no, never mind. And In Court exhibit the marked map, IC 00026.

22 And for the assistance of the registry, yes, there are indeed some

23 exhibits that are not being tendered, that were not used and are not being

24 tendered. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So these exhibits having been

1 put to the witness were the subject matter of questions, and they are

2 admitted therefore. Mr. Registrar, the numbers, please. Afterwards I

3 will give the floor to the Defence for their exhibits.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour. I note for the record that P 00219

5 is already entered as exhibit. It was accepted as exhibit on the 30th of

6 May, 2006.

7 As to the rest, the following exhibits are tendered and admitted

8 with today's date: 00229, sorry. P 00229 -- that's correct. I repeat:

9 P 00299, P 048 -- P 00485, P 00488, P 00490, P 01376, P 01619, P 02344,

10 P 02507, P 02512, P 02882, P 02884, P 02897, P 09044. The exhibit In

11 Court is IC 00026, also tendered and admitted. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

13 MR. SCOTT: The only correction is I do not believe there is a

14 299. There is a P 00 -- P 00229, but there is no P 0299.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, correction, please.

16 Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Keeping track of the record, this is indeed

18 P 02 --

19 MR. SCOTT: There should be a P 00 --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Scott.

21 MR. SCOTT: Apologies. But there should be an Exhibit P 00219 and

22 then it goes to 229. And I'm looking in the transcript. I may have

23 misstated. If I did, I apologise for that.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, take the floor

25 again because we were having some trouble. Could you confirm numbers

1 00219 and 229.

2 THE REGISTRAR: This is the P 00219 is already admitted into the

3 record, and I do confirm that P 0229 is admitted and tendered into

4 evidence, thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I turn to the

6 Defence counsel. Counsel Nozica.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, whichever you

9 like.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: One document: 1D 00527. That was the gentleman's

11 statement that I showed to the witness.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar. For

13 the mentioned exhibit.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. This exhibit is

15 tendered and admitted with today's date, and this is 1D 00 -- sorry,

16 00527. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Nozica, slowly so that

18 Mr. Registrar can follow. He seems to be a bit tired.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] 2D 00067, 2D 00068, 2D 00026, and

20 then we have 2D 00080. That is the Prosecutor's number P 01530. The next

21 is 2D 00064, 2D 00061, 2D 00077, 2D 00078, 2D 00071, 2D 00076, 2D 00073,

22 and 2D 00072. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The following exhibits

25 are therefore tendered and admitted with today's date: 2D 00067,

1 2D 00068, 2D 00026, 2D 00080, 2D 00064, 2D 00061, 2D 00077, 2D 00078,

2 2D 00071, 2D 00076, 2D 00073, and expectedly, 2D 00072. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Counsel Alaburic.

4 No? Mr. Ibrisimovic then.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

6 documents are 6D 00006, 6D 00007, 6D 00009, 6D 00012, and 6D 00023.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, the following exhibits are

9 therefore tendered and admitted with today's date: 6D 00006, 6D 00007,

10 6D 00009, 6D 00012, and 6D 00023. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Counsel Tomic.

12 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 The following documents: 5D 00042, 5D 000 --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel repeat the numbers, please.

15 Could Counsel

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] 00492 is first number.

17 5D 00493 -- shall I start again? 5D 00492, 5D 00493 -- no, it's all

18 wrong. 5D 00492, 5D 00493, 5D 00494, 5D 00491, 5D 00479, 5D 00486,

19 5D 00514, 5D 00485, 5D 00513. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. Mr. Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. The following

22 exhibits are therefore tendered and admitted with today's date: 5D 00492,

23 5D 009 -- sorry, 493, 5D 00494, 5D 00491, 5D 00479, 5D 00486, 5D 00514,

24 5D 00485, and 5D 00513.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Yes,

1 Counsel.

2 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] We have a mistake. We --

3 is it in the interpretation or transcript? 5D 00412. We didn't have that

4 number, we had 492. It was 5D 00492. Not 412. It says 412 on the

5 transcript. It should be 492. And there's a document there that wasn't

6 tendered by us: 5D 00471. I can't find it but I think that was read out,

7 something like that. Oh, that's been corrected. Fine, then just the 412

8 should be corrected.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar. So it's the 412

10 which should be 492.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President for the

12 clarification. Indeed it's 5D 00492 should be read instead of 00512.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

15 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour. We can't find any reference or a

16 copy either in e-court or a hard copy of Exhibit 2D 00080. We'd

17 appreciate some clarification on that.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Counsel Nozica.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I will do my best although -- just

20 give me a minute, please. Yes. It is Prosecution Exhibit which was used

21 by Mr. Karnavas towards the very end and it is the report by Mr. Arif

22 Pasalic, and the Prosecution number which you did not use, I used it, so I

23 gave the number 080. Do you know what it's about so I don't have to look

24 for your number of the document?

25 MR. SCOTT: That's fine. Thank you very much. Thank you, Your

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. We can

3 go into private session for a few more minutes.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In open session, we

23 are winding up our proceedings. Mr. Praljak, you wanted to add something?

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] They asked me to extend our

25 gratitude to them for what we discussed in private session a moment ago.

1 Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. We have

3 almost 200 pages of transcript. I understand that everybody is a little

4 tired, especially the court reporter, as we are going to adjourn the

5 meeting and, as I said, we shall be reconvening on the 17th of August.

6 Thank you.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

9 August, 2006.

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