060920ED

Page 6960

1 being made public, nor to his identity being made public, so as to avoid

2 being recognised on the street in his community, he would prefer that

3 facial distortion be afforded as a protective measure.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have understood

5 the reasons for this request. I'll confer with my colleagues. The Chamber

6 grants the request. Mr. Registrar, take the steps necessary for visual

7 distortion, please.

8 Sir, could you please stand up? Could you tell me your name,

9 and profession and your date of birth?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ragib Mulahusic.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And your date of birth?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 2nd of January 1955.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Place of birth?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the municipality of Zavidovici.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, have you already

16 testified before national or International Tribunal with regard to the

17 events that took place in your country? Or is this the first time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the first time.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

20 text that the usher will show you?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare

22 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

23 WITNESS: RAGIB MULAHUSIC

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, please sit down.

Page 6961

1 Sir, I'd like to provide you with some information. This is a

2 new procedure we will be following. The Prosecution will be asking you

3 whether you gave a statement to the OTP. Then the Prosecution will show

4 you some documents to you and ask whether you can recognise them. Once

5 this has been done, the Defence who are to your left and who represent the

6 accused, will conduct the cross-examination and put questions to you that

7 concern your written statements. Three judges before you usually there are

8 four of us but one of the Judges is absent pursuant to 15 bis of the Rules

9 of Procedure, but the Judges sitting before you may put questions to you at

10 any point in time. When the Judges do so, it's because pursuant to 90(F)

11 of the rules, the Judges try to put useful questions to witnesses for the

12 sake of truth.

13 Sometimes the objection might have objections when Defence

14 questions you, the Chamber will see whether the questions can then be

15 authorised. As a rule, the Judges are in favour of an adversarial

16 principle followed when questions are put and it is only exceptionally that

17 we recognise certain objections. Our purpose is to determine what actually

18 happened so naturally we are in favour of everything that a witness can

19 tell us. That's what I wanted to inform you of.

20 And now without wasting any more time I will give the floor to

21 the Prosecution so that they can follow this new procedure.

22 Examination by Mr. Mundis:

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. For the benefit of the

24 public, the Prosecution is prepared to provide a brief oral summary of the

25 written testimony of this witness, if that would be helpful. This is

Page 6962

1 taken, Mr. President, and Your Honours, directly from the Rule 65 ter

2 summary.

3 On 1 August 1993, the witness, a Muslim male, was arrested in a

4 house in Prozor and taken to the secondary school in Prozor town. From

5 that school, he was taken to work for the Croatian Defence Council, the

6 HVO, as a butcher at one of the butcher shops in Prozor and he was also

7 taken out of the school to perform forced labour.

8 On one occasion, he was brought with 21 other prisoners to the

9 village of Jurici, where he was detained and from where they were taken to

10 dig trenches. After being detained in Jurici for a few days, HVO soldiers

11 told the witness and others to take off their clothing and the detainees

12 were forced to perform oral sex on each other.

13 After approximately 25 days in Jurici, the prisoners were taken

14 back to the secondary school in Prozor during which time, during the course

15 of the detention there, the witness and others were beaten by HVO Soldiers.

16 The witness was subsequently transferred to the Heliodrom and was released

17 from the Heliodrom on 18 April 1994.

18 Q. Good afternoon, sir.A. Good afternoon.Q. Sir, did you ever

19 provide a written statement to investigators of theOffice of the Prosecutor

20 of the ICTY?A. Yes.Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately when you gave

21 this statement?A. It says when in the statement, the 10th of January,

22 2001. The 10th was the date.Q. Sir, I suggest to you that it was

23 actually the 10th of April 2001.Would that be correct?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And sir, at the time you provided this written statement, did you

Page 6963

1 answer the questions of the investigator truthfully?

2 A. I said I spoke the truth.

3 Q. And, sir, did you answer the questions freely, that is without

4 any coercion?

5 A. Freely.

6 Q. And at the conclusion of that interview, sir, was your statement

7 read back to you in the Bosnian language?

8 A. Well, yes, in the Bosnian language.

9 Q. And sir, did you then sign that statement in the English

10 language?

11 A. Yes -- no.

12 Q. Let me ask you, sir, which version of your statement do you

13 remember signing, the English version or the Bosnian version?

14 A. Well, I think it was the Bosnian version.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Okay. With the assistance of the usher, Mr.

16 President, I have English and Bosnian language copies of the statement and

17 I would ask that these be provided to the witness. Perhaps they can be

18 placed on the ELMO.

19 Q. Mr. Mulahusic, you have before you now both the English and

20 Bosnian versions of your statement. Can you tell us which version or

21 versions of that statement you actually signed in 2001?

22 A. Well, my signature is here. My signatures are here.

23 Q. And your signature, sir, is on the English version; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6964

1 Q. And when you travelled, Mr. Mulahusic, here to The Hague a few

2 days ago, you met with an investigator and myself yesterday. You recall

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And at that point in time, were you given the opportunity to

6 review your statement in the Bosnian language?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. MURPHY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, could we just check if the

9 ELMO is working? We don't seem to be able to see the statement. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to see the signature.

12 There, we have it.

13 MR. MUNDIS: I'm also informed, Mr. President, for the benefit

14 of everyone that these two statements are in e-court as P 09699, in both

15 English and Bosnian.

16 Q. Mr. Mulahusic, yesterday, upon reviewing your statement in the

17 Bosnian language, did you have any -- did you have any corrections to make

18 to that statement?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you have any additions to that statement, having had the

21 opportunity to review it in the Bosnian language?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Having had the opportunity to review the statement in the Bosnian

24 language, was there anything that you wanted to delete from your April 2001

25 written statement?

Page 6965

1 A. No, there was nothing.

2 Q. Mr. Mulahusic, if I were to ask you questions about the subject

3 matters contained in your written statement, would the answers reflect

4 what's written in that statement of April 2001?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And there is nothing that you would like to add to that

7 statement?

8 A. No.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir.

10 Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender P

11 09699, the written statement of Mr. Mulahusic dated 10 April 2001, into

12 evidence. We have no further questions.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Mr.

14 Mundis.

15 I believe initially you had planned to use up one hour. The

16 Defence has an hour. It's for you to use the time as you see fit. If you

17 haven't agreed on how to divide the time you'll have ten minutes each. If

18 you have reached an agreement, well, it's as you wish to proceed. I'll

19 give the floor to the first Defence team.

20 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours,

21 Mr. Coric's Defence has no questions for this witness, thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And the next

23 Defence team?

24 MR. MULALIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 6966

1 MS. TOMANOVIC: Mr. Prlic's Defence has no questions for this

2 witness. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. MURPHY: Our Defence has no questions, thank you, Your

5 Honour.

6 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, Mr. Praljak's Defence has a few

7 questions for this witness.

8 Cross-examination by

9 Mr. Kovacic

10 Q. Good day, I represent General Praljak here. Naturally we have

11 read through your statement. It was summarised here today and I'll just

12 put a few questions to you so that we can clarify a few issues. And since

13 we speak the same language, and what we say is being interpreted, I'd be

14 grateful if you could pause briefly after I put my question to you and then

15 answer the question.

16 First of all, in your statement, you said how you had been

17 arrested and when and you said you were arrested on the 1st of August 1993

18 in your house in Prozor and you were taken to the school. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us who arrested you?

21 A. Well, it was the HVO but I didn't know them. The insignia they

22 had was HVO insignia. They were soldiers.

23 Q. So they were wearing uniforms, camouflage uniforms?

24 A. Well, yes, uniforms, camouflage uniforms, HVO.

25 Q. So they had HVO insignia?

Page 6967

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you see the insignia?

3 A. Of course.

4 Q. Did you see any additional kinds of insignia that indicated which

5 HVO units they were part of?

6 A. No. I only saw that it said HVO.

7 Q. Thank you. And then you were taken to the school?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it true that there were two guards in front of the entrance to

10 the school at all times?

11 A. Yes. Two or three. I was up on the floor. I didn't have the

12 opportunity of counting them.

13 Q. Very well. And these guards, were they also wearing camouflage

14 uniforms?

15 A. Yes, it was the HVO, the police.

16 Q. Did they have HVO insignia? Did the police have HVO insignia?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's now go back to the year 1992, early 1992. And from the

19 beginning of 1992, did you go to the front lines to defend Bosnia-

20 Herzegovina against the Serbian aggression and the JNA aggression?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Does that mean that you weren't mobilised as part of the defence?

23 A. I was mobilised as a worker. I worked as a butcher.

24 Q. Sir, you weren't mobilised -- just a minute, because of the

25 interpretation. I'll assist. Given what you have said, you can confirm

Page 6968

1 whether that's correct or not. You were mobilised but you were mobilised

2 into civilian units, not into combat units?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you perform those civilian duties for which you had been

5 mobilised?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You did?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I introduce a very small question? When

10 you were mobilised and worked as a butcher did you also wear some kind of a

11 uniform?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ordinary clothes.

13 MR. KOVACIC:

14 Q. [Interpretation] And to follow up, other individuals who were

15 mobilised into civilian service were wearing ordinary clothes? [No

16 interpretation].

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us how this was organised? Did you sometimes --

19 were you sometimes asked to go to a certain place, certain time, carry out

20 certain work?

21 A. A person came to get me, a person came to get me.

22 Q. And other individuals too?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Very well. And you would work during the day and go home at

25 night is that how it worked?

Page 6969

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you performed civilian duties, it was called a work obligation

3 at the time; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. After they had arrested you, you said that you were

6 taken to the school, you were there with other people who were in the same

7 situation that you were in and a few brief questions: We can see from your

8 statement and other statements that you slept in the class rooms; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, in the school.

11 Q. They gave you some kind of mattresses and blankets there; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Depended. Not everyone. Everyone had a mattress. Only some

14 people had blankets.

15 Q. Could one say that most people had mattresses and blankets?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did the situation improve with time, as far as the mattresses and

18 blankets are concerned? Did everyone get them or not?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you provided with food?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you notice whether you received the same kind of food as the

23 soldiers who were there?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You don't know or you didn't notice then?

Page 6970

1 A. I didn't notice.

2 Q. Was it allowed for families to take food to you?

3 A. In the school, yes. Most of them were allowed.

4 Q. So if a family wanted to take food to you, you could receive that

5 food?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Very well. Were you provided with medical care? Could you ask

8 for a doctor's assistance, for a checkup?

9 A. Well, sometimes, yes. Not everyone could, though.

10 Q. Did doctors go to see you when you were there?

11 A. Once a week.

12 Q. Do you agree that it was at least ones a week and when necessary,

13 if someone requested a doctor's assistance, it happened more frequently?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then you worked in Prozor at a butcher's. Was that also

16 treated as a work obligation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were told that you were continuing with your work obligation?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us which butcher you worked for, given us his name?

21 A. Pao, now, whether his surname was Maric, I don't know, but he

22 worked for the cooperative.

23 Q. Fine. And that butcher's shop supplied the army and civilians

24 with meat, with food?

25 A. The army, the HVO, but the HVO, but the Armija was there as well

Page 6971

1 afterwards.

2 Q. Whether you say the Armija, you mean the BH army?

3 A. Yes, the BH army was there for a time and later on, just the

4 others.

5 Q. But that butcher's shop supplied all those soldiers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was the chief? Who was your boss, your immediate boss in the

8 butcher shop?

9 A. That man Pao [phoen].

10 Q. Was his conduct proper towards you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you go home if you needed to do something, have a wash or

13 something like that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it true, as far as I can understand, that you have no

16 complaints of your treatment while you worked in the butcher shop?

17 A. Yes, his conduct was proper towards me.

18 Q. Thank you. After sometime passed, you were included in this

19 group with some of our other colleagues and you were taken off to Jurici?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you spent about 25 days in all in Jurici; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'm not going to go into detail now but you described the

24 incidents when you were abused and your other friends were abused, your

25 fellow citizens. Is it true that those incidents which you spoke about and

Page 6972

1 there were several, there were a number of them, is it true and correct

2 that they took place mostly at night?

3 A. Yes, mostly at night.

4 Q. Can you describe when you say mostly at night, all five

5 incidents, did only one of these take place during the night or four or --

6 A. Do you mean soldiers?

7 Q. No, I mean these incidents?

8 A. Well, it lasted 10 or 11 hours and then until 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.,

9 2 or 3 in the morning.

10 Q. It was always at night?

11 A. Well for five or six days.

12 Q. You mean five or six times?

13 A. Five or six nights.

14 Q. All right. Now, did you perhaps know or had occasion to see when

15 you were in Jurici who was the commander of that sector there where you

16 were with the other soldiers?

17 A. I wasn't interested in that at the time.

18 Q. I don't mean his name but did you notice that there was a person

19 in uniform who acted as a commander, who was the commander there?

20 A. Well, everybody did what they wanted. I can't say.

21 I can't say this one or

22 that one.

23 Q. So does that mean that it didn't really resemble an army if they

24 didn't have a commander?

25 A. Well, I don't know who the commander was.

Page 6973

1 Q. Nobody imposed themselves and through their conduct and behaviour

2 and issued orders go here, go there, that you came to the conclusion that

3 that person was in command of those soldiers?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Right, you weren't. Now, this abuse that took place --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- apart from the abuse at night, during the night, can you tell

8 us whether it happened during the day on just one occasion or perhaps two

9 occasions or never?

10 A. Several times.

11 Q. All right. Fine. Now, when this --

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I put this clear? You have first said it

13 was or you have answered positively to the question did this happen during

14 the night. But then you have also said that it usually lasted 10 to 12

15 hours, I think, and it ended at 2.00 in the morning. So one must assume

16 that it started during the afternoon, that is before night. Have I

17 understood you correctly or have I misunderstood you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. From 10 or 11.00 in the

19 evening, 10 or 11 p.m., 10 or 11 p.m. is what I meant.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you could see that in

21 the Croatian but perhaps not in the interpretation, but thank you for

22 clearing that up.

23 Q. On those occasions when you said there was abuse that took place

24 during the day as well, on those occasions, you mentioned certain

25 individuals and also you mentioned some names related to those incidents at

Page 6974

1 night, and I'll mention some of their names. You mentioned a person called

2 Goran, then there was Jozo, then Pesa?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you described some of them. You said that Goran was about 25

5 years old, that Jozo was about 30, that Pesa was about 40?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All this abuse that took place, was it always done by the people

8 you mentioned or were more people involved in the abuse?

9 A. Well mostly them but others too.

10 Q. So there were others too?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can we say that these three or four men were the leaders, if I

13 can put it that way, the ring leaders?

14 A. Well, I don't know if they were the ring leaders but

15 they would come in first and

16 then --

17 Q. Did you notice any additional insignia on those people except the

18 HVO which denoted that they belonged to some other formation?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Among those people, did you recognise some locals from Rama

21 perhaps or were they people who had come in from elsewhere?

22 A. Well, Prozor is a large place. I don't know. I wasn't actually

23 there for me to be able to recognise people much.

24 Q. There were 25 of you there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6975

1 Q. I'm sure you talked amongst yourselves?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did somebody else say he knew those people from Rama or did you

4 think that they had come in from elsewhere?

5 A. I just knew those three men and their names. I knew how they

6 were called, what they were called.

7 Q. Fine. But you learnt their names up there, you didn't know their

8 names from before?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mulahusic, for those

11 answers. I have no further questions.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, too.

13 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just as a follow-up question

15 from the Bench, you said that there were three and you gave us their names.

16 You said Goran, Pesa and Jozo. Now, in your written statement, with

17 respect to the man named Goran, you said that he was a member of the

18 Croatian army. What does that mean exactly, to your mind? Was he a member

19 of the HVO or was he a member of the Croatian army coming from Zagreb?

20 What was your understanding? What did you mean to say when you used those

21 words?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the HVO. Now, whether it

23 was the HVO army or -- I can't really say.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you. So you said

25 the HVO. Now, when you were in Jurici, in your written statement, you said

Page 6976

1 that you were doing work digging trenches. Am I right in understanding

2 that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] "Da" you say; right?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you dug trenches the

7 whole day, did you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the whole day. Whether it

9 was raining or sunshine.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Now, when you were

11 digging trenches for the HVO, who was opposite the HVO on the opposite

12 side? Were they the Serbs or was it the BH army, the army of Bosnia-

13 Herzegovina.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The BH army.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you were digging the

16 trenches from time to time, was there any shooting, any gunshots, across

17 the BH army line or were you able to dig in peace, with no shooting.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they shot rarely.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you were digging, did

20 you have the feeling of being exposed to gunshots coming from the BH army

21 line?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, on rare occasions.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And amongst your comrades, was

24 anybody wounded to your knowledge, injured?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I just noted on one occasion

Page 6977

1 that Osman Pilav was wounded.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The lines of the BH army, were

3 at what distance from the trenches, 100 metres, 200 metres, 300 metres, one

4 kilometre? How far away were they?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't say exactly but it

6 was far away.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you returned to Prozor,

8 to the school there, you said that you were beaten. Did that happen

9 frequently that you were beaten?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, five or six nights.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who beat you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the people I mentioned.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it was the same men who

14 forced you to have oral sex also came at the secondary school -- to the

15 secondary school and continued to beat you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't beat us in the

17 school. They beat us in Jurici.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in your opinion, why were

19 you beaten? Was there a reason of any kind? What was it due to? Why were

20 you beaten, the blows that you received? Why did you receive them?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't know why they beat

22 me.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now my last question.

24 It's a little anecdotic, perhaps, but it just came to my mind. We -- I

25 would like to know the following: For a time, you were a butcher in

Page 6978

1 Prozor, and then you went to that secondary school. Tell us why you didn't

2 use the occasion to escape.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't dare because of my

4 family.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

6 Mr. Kovacic.

7 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I apologise but you reminded me of

8 something that I omitted to ask, just one question with the Court's

9 indulgence.

10 Q. Sir, when you were freed or even before, when you were taken to

11 the Heliodrom, or when you were liberated in April 1994, did you tell --

12 report these atrocities to any of the authorities, the atrocities that

13 happened to you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You didn't go to any authority and write out a report or --

16 A. No. I just gave this statement here in The Hague.

17 Q. You mean to the OTP?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But they called you and asked you about it and asked you to make

20 a statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But you didn't go to -- when you were in the Heliodrom, did you

23 ask for somebody to write down your statement about these abuses and

24 atrocities in Jurici?

25 A. At the Heliodrom, you mean?

Page 6979

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. No.

3 Q. When you were released from Heliodrom?

4 A. I went to Bugojno.

5 Q. Did you report it to the Bosnian authorities when you arrived

6 there?

7 A. Well, here.

8 Q. When you were called by the OTP?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But you didn't go of your own accord and report what had

11 happened?

12 A. No.

13 Q. The statement that you saw today?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You gave the statement when they called you up from the OTP and

16 probably they were helped by the local police, they called you and asked

17 you to make a statement about the events; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, my question is the following: Did you ever before go to any

20 authority of your own free will and made a statement, gave a statement?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Going on from this, can you give us an

23 explanation why you did not spontaneously make a complaint to authorities

24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how should I know? I can't

Page 6980

1 really say, give you anything definite.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, only you can know why you did or did not

3 do something. I will try to assist you and put the question more directly.

4 Was this something that you would regard as a shame? Could it be that you

5 were ashamed of telling authorities about what had happened?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I would then like to go to two

8 other points that are raised in your statement. One is you say that an HVO

9 soldier took a tooth out of Sejad Islamovic. Do you remember?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: This is surprising. Have you -- was there any

12 reason given for this?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how should I know? I just

14 saw it happen five or six metres away from where I was standing. I saw him

15 take the tooth out.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Had Mr. Islamovic complained of tooth ache?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the tooth, was it a golden

19 tooth that he pulled out? Gold tooth?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The other incident I would like to return to is

22 you say that Pesa shot above your head. Now, did he threaten you that he

23 would kill you before you -- before he shot above your head?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He just stood me up against the

25 wall and shot above my head. Then I heard five or six bullets, I fell down

Page 6994

1 for the former Yugoslavia? That was my question.

2 A. It's like this: I think it was in the year 2000 that I was

3 contacted first by someone from the OTP, from The Hague, in Bugojno that

4 was, and in Bugojno, during two days and then one day in Mostar, I gave

5 statements, certain statements, which I wrote and signed.

6 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, I would like the usher to place the

7 statement of Witness BM on the ELMO so that he could see the body of his

8 statement. Our exhibit number of this statement: 09702.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Be careful because the name is

10 on the first page.

11 MR. PORYVAEV: I suggest that this exhibit should be under seal

12 for this very reason.

13 Q. Witness, do you see this document in front of you?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Can you read it?

16 A. Well, this portion hasn't been translated.

17 Q. Which portion?

18 A. Well, yes, I can see. I apologise. I was looking at the wrong

19 place. When I gave this statement, yes, that's fine, I performed the

20 functions that it says there.

21 Q. Witness, did you provide the investigator with a number of

22 documents that were used as an attachment to your statement?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. I would like to leaf through this exhibit so that the witness

25 could take a look at the signatures and initials at the bottom of the body

Page 6995

1 of the statement.

2 A. This is my signature.

3 Q. Witness, is it correct that instead of initials, you just did

4 some extra work and just put your full signature?

5 A. Well, I placed my full signature and how I sign my name, and as

6 it says -- in the second row, that's how I sign my name on my ID card and

7 my passport, where it just has the name for short.

8 Q. Witness, did you give your statement voluntarily?

9 A. Completely voluntarily.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The witness

11 said his name so that should be redacted.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note they did not say the

13 name.

14 MR. PORYVAEV: I do not see his name in the transcript.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters omitted the name.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] He did say his name. He

17 said I always sign my name that way and then he said his name. We all

18 heard it. So I'm just telling the Court to take care because nothing will

19 remain confidential if the name comes out.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they heard the name

21 but out of an abundance of caution did not say the name in English.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The name did not appear

23 in the transcript whereas the witness recognises his name.

24 Witness, the document in English that you signed has your name,

25 bears your name, does it not?

Page 6996

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Move on.

3 MR. PORYVAEV:

4 Q. Witness, did you tell the truth to investigator?

5 A. I spoke the truth and it was my aim to say what I knew, and

6 nothing but the truth, nothing but what I knew. Nobody influenced me in

7 any way in giving any different kind of statement.

8 Q. I would like to move the statement to the last page. I mean, its

9 English version. Witness, do you see it?

10 A. Yes. I see the 17th of February 2002. I see the signature.

11 Q. Is it your signature?

12 A. Yes, it is, the lower one, the bottom one. And up at the top.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 A. But my signature is at the bottom as well.

15 Q. Have you read your statement in your native language, after the

16 interview?

17 A. Yes, I did. I did. And unless I'm very much mistaken, the lady

18 who wrote the statement down, I think, came from Tuzla. She was the

19 interpreter, translator.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, now, do you recall your statement?

21 A. Well, I cannot remember all the details but everything that is

22 written there and that I signed and initialed on each page of this

23 statement I stand by.

24 Q. Thank you very much. As far as I understand --

25 A. Because it was given over a period of three days.

Page 6997

1 Q. Witness, I would ask you to answer my questions and don't make

2 too many comments because we are very limited in time. Were you given an

3 opportunity of rereading your statement when you came here to the Tribunal

4 for the meeting with the prosecutor?

5 A. I had a copy with me before. I received a copy when I signed it.

6 I was given a copy.

7 Q. Do you need to make some alterations or corrections in your

8 witness statements now?

9 A. Well, it's like this: There are several places where there are

10 possibly some mistakes, perhaps I said it wrong or somebody wrote it down

11 wrongly, with some names and so on. So I remember seeing, for example, at

12 one place, it says, "Simunovic Jozo" and it should be Simunovic Stipe" and

13 maybe some other points. I didn't make a mistake with the surnames but

14 there might have been two or three mistakes with the first names of the

15 people concerned. Because there are quite a lot of names so I might have

16 got them wrong, the first names, that is, but I knew -- know that with

17 Simunovic Stipe, there is Jozo and there is Stipe so that's what led me to

18 make that slip.

19 Q. Witness, we understand you. And perhaps this correction will be

20 made in your witness statement in due time and in due course. The most

21 important, that it is reflected now in the transcript.

22 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, I would like to tender this witness

23 statement into evidence.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: While we are talking about this and correcting

25 mistakes, on page 7 of the English version, two times in the second

Page 6998

1 paragraph, and then again at the end of the fourth, the term "redrew" is

2 used and I wonder whether it should not read "withdrew" or "withdrawing".

3 Page 7, second paragraph, second line, "Zgela was redrewing a little."

4 Shouldn't it be "withdrawing"?

5 MR. PORYVAEV:

6 Q. Witness, would you take a look at the B/C/S version? What is the

7 right word?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, while the witness

9 is reading through the text, in future, it would be advisable that when you

10 or your colleagues show the witness the statement during this procedure,

11 you could say that we met yesterday and in my presence you read the

12 testimony in your own language. Do you have any remarks to make today on

13 that testimony or statement? Would you like to withdraw, correct something

14 or not?" And he can say yes or no. And we can gain time that way because

15 if we now go on to discuss words, individual words, whether it was

16 redrawing or withdrawing or whatever, we are going to spend hours

17 discussing it.

18 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, at the session, proofing session, we

19 had no such kind of statements from the witness.

20 Q. So, witness, what is the right word used by him?

21 A. You mean paragraph 4? Towards the end of April 19 -- is that you

22 mean, approximately at the end of April 1992? Could you repeat what you

23 said, please?

24 Q. Yes, at approximately the end of April 1992, the position of

25 Zgela was taken?

Page 6999

1 A. Zgela it should say, Josip Zgela. At the beginning he was the

2 commander. Zgela, yes, Josip was his first name. It says "Zgelino"

3 [phoen] here. No. Zgela is the right worked.

4 Q. "I was told that for the moment, he was redrawing a little

5 because apparently," and so on and so forth. What was your term used in

6 the witness statement?

7 A. It says here he took over here, at the end of April, the position

8 of Zgela was taken over by a Bosnian Croat named Andjelic from April to

9 June of 1992 and very often there were replacements in HVO leadership in

10 Prozor.

11 Q. Witness, please listen to me.

12 A. Zgela did not temporarily withdraw. Yes, I can hear you.

13 Q. Go on. "I was told" -- from this phrase. What was the word used

14 by you, "redrawing" or "withdrawing"?

15 A. I apologise but in the -- is that the fourth paragraph that

16 you're referring to on page 7? It says, "Approximately at the end of April

17 1992, the position of Zgela was taken over by a Bosnian Croat named, this

18 is his surname, Andjelic, Andjelic is his surname, from the village of

19 Podbor. He was born there but he didn't live there. So Zgela left and

20 Andjelic came, Zgela was replaced.

21 Q. Please, next sentence.

22 A. "I was told that," this is what it says. It's like this. "He

23 was replaced but I received information, that is to say, the gentleman was

24 replaced by his -- by authorities so he left. He wasn't there any more."

25 Q. Witness, just one word. Zgela was redrawing or withdrawing?

Page 7000

1 A. I was told that Zgela had withdrawn temporarily because the

2 Bosnian Croats from Herzegovina did not like it when somebody from Croatia

3 was in command.

4 MR. PORYVAEV: It's quite clear now. Let's go on.

5 So, Your Honour, I would like to tender this Exhibit 9702.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy?

7 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I object to the admission of this

8 exhibit, and I think we are still in private session, but -- no? We are in

9 open session? All right. I don't think there is any need to go into

10 private session.

11 Your Honours, as I understand it this statement is being

12 tendered under Rule 89(F). That rule does not give the Prosecution an

13 absolute right to present any kind of evidence in written form, but only

14 where the interests of justice allow. If we look at the content of this

15 statement, if I could direct Your Honours to a number of passages in the

16 English version, the -- at the beginning of page 4, the witness makes a

17 statement dealing with an allegation about the crisis committee working

18 directly under the orders of Zagreb and what he describes as its field

19 office Grude. At the bottom of that same page, there are -- there is a

20 mention of the media in the municipality being under the control of the

21 HVO. On the next page, Your Honour, page 5 of the English version, in the

22 fourth paragraph, the witness --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand your

24 objections, Mr. Murphy, but when you come to the cross-examination, you'll

25 be able to put that to the Court and then you can make your conclusions and

Page 7001

1 say that you are against having the document admitted, but you can do that

2 during the cross-examination because you are intervening now at the moment

3 when the Prosecutor is asking the witness whether he recognises what he

4 already stated in written form. We are just starting out. So as to the

5 substance of the document, you can challenge any points you like during the

6 cross-examination, and then say that you challenge the admittance of the

7 exhibit.

8 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I understand Your Honour's point. I

9 would like, however, to put this submission on the record because it seems

10 to me that this is not an appropriate use of Rule 89(F) when a witness

11 makes such far-reaching statements which go to the very heart of the joint

12 criminal enterprise allegations in this case, it's appropriate for the

13 Trial Chamber to hear an examination-in-chief so that the Judges can begin

14 to observe the demeanour of the witness and to assess his credibility.

15 Moreover, Your Honour, later in the statement, and I won't go

16 into detail, to take up time, but Your Honours will have observed that

17 there is a very, very long, well, a long passage dealing with the acts and

18 conduct of one of the accused, which clearly would not have been admissible

19 under 92 bis.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, fine. You're quite

21 right.

22 MR. MURPHY: [Previous translation continues] ... 92 bis.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're quite right but you

24 know that several days ago, the Judges adopted a new article, 92 ter,

25 providing for this procedure, with the possibility of having written

Page 7002

1 statements relating to the conduct of the accused and their acts. So under

2 89(F), the old rule, that might have existed but now we are in a situation

3 where we have 89(F) and 92 ter. But the objective is to try and proceed as

4 quickly as possible and to give you as much time as possible.

5 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has

6 just told us that he stated several names incorrectly in his statement, and

7 the Prosecutor tells us that we will have a correction in due course. I

8 think these corrections would be very welcome immediately because those

9 names are vital, as far as we are concerned.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, quite. Thank you.

11 Witness, you said that there were three surnames that you gave

12 but you might have been wrong about the first names and you gave us one

13 example. Do you have any other examples to give us that you would like to

14 correct straight away? If that doesn't come to mind immediately, what you

15 could do later on, during the break, because we are going to take another

16 break, so when we take our break, you can read through your text, your

17 statement, and then tell us which first and last names need to be

18 corrected. That way, we'll save time. But move on to the documents,

19 please.

20 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, first I would like to call attention

21 of the witness to pages 12 -- 11, 12 of the statement in English and page

22 12 in B/C/S, which commence with the words, "On the 14th of November."

23 This is the last passage in the English version at the bottom. In the

24 B/C/S version, it's the sixth passage from the top.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps in order to save time,

Page 7003

1 read out the beginning of that passage to him, that will help him find his

2 bearings.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it. It says, "On the 14th

4 of November, 1992, an information report was written to inform President

5 Alija Izetbegovic and the staff of the supreme headquarters in Sarajevo

6 about the happenings in Prozor on the 23rd and 24th of October, 1992."

7 MR. PORYVAEV:

8 Q. Witness, by whom was that report drafted and signed? I mean

9 first of all, the organisation or body and then maybe some personalities.

10 A. In the penultimate passage, it says that the drafters of this

11 passage, prominent members of Prozor, were -- well, you have the names

12 there and I'm included.

13 Q. Okay. But is it correct as reflected in your witness statement?

14 A. These are the correct names. These are the people who drafted

15 this report.

16 Q. Now I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 744. You may

17 take away the witness statement now for the moment and put it aside.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may intervene

19 before we have an answer, I'd like to follow up on my colleague Murphy's

20 objection. You reminded us of the amendment to the rules. You mentioned

21 Rule 92. However, may I draw your attention to the fact that these rules

22 enter into force seven days after the date on which the official document

23 is issued and that was the 22nd of September, 2006.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But that's why we

25 are dealing with 89(F) but there is the spirit of the matter and the rules,

Page 7004

1 the letter.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Perhaps there might be a

3 better time to more fully address these types of legal issues but at this

4 point, the Prosecution position is that the Defence teams will have

5 adequate opportunity to cross-examine the witnesses pursuant to the Trial

6 Chamber's guidance and time limits or time allowed by the Trial Chamber.

7 The whole purpose of this exercise, as Your Honour has rightly indicated,

8 is a time-saving device. The fact that the witness is present in court,

9 that his credibility can be tested, that his demeanour can be observed, all

10 of these things still exist under this procedure that we are using here

11 today and so the fact of the matter is that Rule 89(F) is simply a means of

12 expediting testimony. Rule 89(F), of course, this entire procedure is

13 silent as to acts and conduct of the accused or any of a number of other

14 issues. The fact of the platter is the witness is here, he's available for

15 cross-examination, he's available to answer any questions that Your Honours

16 may have, Your Honours may observe his demeanour and his credibility may be

17 tested by anyone in this courtroom who so desires to do so.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Mundis. The

19 Prosecution may continue, and could the interpreters please interpret?

20 Because I can't hear them right now.

21 MR. PORYVAEV:

22 Q. So, Witness, do you see a document on the screen?

23 A. I see the first page.

24 Q. I would like to scroll to the second page, scroll down. Witness,

25 is this the document you meant in your witness statement when talking about

Page 7005

1 the report dated on the 14th of November?

2 A. I can see part of the document here. I'm familiar with the

3 contents of this report, and at the time that this report was drafted, I

4 believe it reflected the situation such as it was at the time. It reflects

5 the facts. This entire report reflects the facts.

6 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you very much. I would like to take a look

7 at page 1 in the English version, and page 1, passages 3, 4, in B/C/S. The

8 next page in English.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The objective of this

10 procedure is to advance rapidly. If you now start putting questions to him

11 about the contents of the document, I don't see how we'll be saving time.

12 If he can recognise the document, and says that that's the document in

13 question, that's sufficient. It's not necessary to tell him, have a look

14 at page 3 and tell me what is written down there corresponds to the

15 situation you are familiar with, because this document, he obviously knows

16 about it.

17 MR. PORYVAEV: Okay, Your Honour. I withdraw my question. I'm

18 quite happy with the response given by the witness before. Now I would

19 like the witness to be shown Exhibit 09694. [Microphone not activated].

20 Q. Do you see the name of the body on behalf of which the document

21 was drafted?

22 A. It says the Party of Democratic Action, Prozor.

23 Q. Did you participate in the drafting of this document?

24 A. Yes, partially, but I am familiar with the document, and I accept

25 it as my own, as if I had fully participated in its drafting, and I'm in

Page 7006

1 total agreement with the contents of this document.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 I would like now to turn to Exhibit 01656.

4 Witness, do you remember giving this document to the

5 investigator?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recognise this document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have an opportunity of reading this document now, while

10 being here in The Hague?

11 A. I have the document on me. I've always had it on me.

12 Q. Witness, do you confirm the contents of the document now?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Now I would like to turn to Exhibit 01542. It's not on the

15 screen yet, I suggest.

16 A. Yes, I have it, the first page.

17 Q. Yes. Witness, do you remember this document?

18 A. I do and I stand by what the document states.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 Now I would like to turn to Exhibit 00657.

21 Witness, do you see this document?

22 A. Yes, although it's not really legible but I am familiar with its

23 contents and I stand by this document.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 Now, Witness, just one question, just relevant to your

Page 7007

1 statement: At some point you participated in some investigation of the

2 events in Prozor municipality on the 23rd of October; is it correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. How did you obtain your information which was then added in the

5 documents which were submitted to the higher authorities of the Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. We had statements from eye-witnesses of the events, and we had

8 information from people who were damaged, so we had interviews from

9 witnesses, with witnesses, eye witnesses, and statements.

10 Q. Witness, did you receive any information from other sources, I

11 mean your subordinates?

12 A. After the events in Prozor, after the 23rd of October, for a few

13 days, the situation was chaotic. There was information, there was

14 misinformation.

15 Q. I'm sorry, just my question was quite precise. Did you get

16 information from your subordinates for drafting these documents?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. I would like witness to be shown Exhibit 09376.

19 Have you ever seen this document?

20 A. I have, and I have it with me, not here but I do possess that

21 document.

22 Q. Do you confirm that the information in the document is accurate?

23 A. I can confirm that. It wasn't difficult to check this at a

24 certain point in time.

25 Don't --

Page 7008

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 Next, Exhibit 09429.

3 Witness, do you see this document?

4 A. Yes. And the contents of this document are correct.

5 Q. I would like to turn to Exhibit 09482.

6 Yes. Witness, do you see this document?

7 A. Yes, but this is just part of what subsequently happened in this

8 village, because not a single house remained undamaged.

9 Q. [Microphone not activated]?

10 A. Yes, I do, and I have this document. At the time the contents of

11 the document were correct and later the situation changed.

12 MR. PORYVAEV: Witness, thank you very much. I would like to

13 turn to Exhibit 09482.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There must be an error in the

15 transcript. It's not 09402 because this document has already been dealt

16 with. It must be 09487, I assume.

17 MR. PORYVAEV: I'm sorry, Your Honour, because of this rostrum,

18 I don't see properly the screen. But you're right.

19 Q. I would like to turn to Exhibit 09487. Witness, do you see this

20 document?

21 A. Yes, and I stand by the document.

22 Q. Next document [Microphone not activated]?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. PORYVAEV:

25 Q. Next document 00640. Witness, do you see this document?

Page 7009

1 A. Yes, the list isn't complete, there are 110 vehicles in total in

2 this list and at the time that this document was drafted, it correctly

3 reflected the situation.

4 MR. PORYVAEV: Next exhibit, 02180.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There must be a minor error

6 because the document refers to 169 vehicles and the witness said 110

7 because he apparently didn't turn the page. As I don't miss anything --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's possible. I didn't

9 turn the page over. You can't see it here. But there is one document that

10 refers to 110 vehicles.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move on.

12 MR. PORYVAEV: Now I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

13 01188.

14 Q. Witness, do you see this document?

15 (redacted).

16 Q. Do you stand by it now?

17 A. I do.

18 MR. PORYVAEV: Next exhibit --

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I? I would like to ask a small question

20 with regard to this document. You speak on the third line in the English

21 translation, of course, of "mercenary hordes." Could you specify what you

22 had in mind with this term?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When entering Prozor, the HV and

24 HVO forces in October 1992, there was looting of the -- of Bosniak property

25 in Prozor, all-out looting of their property. Over 90 per cent of the

Page 7010

1 inhabitants of Prozor left Prozor in two days, they fled for Jablanica,

2 Konjic and to the eastern part of the municipality of Prozor.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: What I'm referring to in the B/C/S, I will try

4 to pronounce it correctly, is, "B/C/S spoken" on the third line. What do

5 you refer to? Who is that? "B/C/S spoken."

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time when the document was

7 drafted, according to the statements of expelled Bosniaks from Prozor,

8 there were individuals who advanced and scared the population. They said

9 those who are coming behind us, all they do is slaughter and kill and beat

10 the people fleeing. They were just trying to save their lives. Everything

11 that was of any value in Prozor was looted. Everything that belonged to

12 the Bosniaks. And acts committed are referred to here in this document.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I leave it at that.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This question could have been

15 put in the course of the cross-examination or when the Judges put

16 questions, but you didn't answer my colleague's question. My colleague has

17 pointed out that it says that after the aggression in Gornji Vakuf, there

18 were HVO units that participated with special units from the Republic of

19 Croatia and with mercenary hordes. So we, the Judges, are interested in

20 this naturally. What did you mean when we read this sentence, it seems

21 that there are HVO units, there are specialist units, from Croatia, and

22 there are mercenary hordes. There are three groups concerned. That's what

23 it says in English. What can you tell us about this? Because you spoke

24 about consequences. What we are interested in are the authors, the

25 perpetrators, not the consequences.

Page 7016

1 greatly complicate my cross-examination because the aim of my cross-

2 examination is to point out parts of the statement and to have it in e-

3 court, which is the only way to deal with certain issues.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, if any passages

5 might reveal the witness's identity, in that case, you should ask for us to

6 go into private session.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have the statement in

8 Croatian and there are no signatures on the pages so I think that is how it

9 will appear in e-court. I don't believe there will be any problems.

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

11 Q. Good day, sir, my name is Senka Nozica, and I will be examining

12 you on behalf of Mr. Stojic's Defence. Just a little while ago you were

13 shown a document so I would like to start there, it's a P 001188. We don't

14 have to have it in e-court. It's about the mercenary hordes you mentioned

15 in that document. It's a document you signed.

16 Could you tell me, please, where you were on the 23rd of October

17 1992? Were you in Prozor?

18 A. No, I wasn't.

19 Q. Just a moment, please. We will come to that. So what you write

20 about in this letter, you heard from somebody else and then you described

21 this?

22 A. I heard it from citizens of Prozor who had fled to Jablanica.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecution?

24 MR. PORYVAEV: I am assuming that we came back to the same

25 mistake again, revealing the witness's identity.

Page 7017

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise but each one of my

2 questions could reveal the identity of the witness. If the Prosecutor

3 believes that I'm revealing the witness's identity by quoting from these

4 documents, then this is bound to happen. It's very difficult for me to

5 deal with this and I appeal to the Chamber to issue a decision. How else

6 can I cross-examine if I am not to draw attention to parts of the statement

7 where the witness explains where and when he was? I didn't mention any

8 names, just event. May I proceed?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do proceed.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You said that you heard about these events second-hand, on the

12 23rd of October, 1992, you say you were not in Prozor?

13 A. It was a Friday.

14 Q. Now, I wish to point to a part of your statement, it's on page 3

15 in Croatian. Could we please have it on e-court?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which page in the English

17 version?

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] It's the same page, number 3 in

19 English.

20 Q. Please, I will tell you slowly, you say that in mid-1991, the

21 Bosnian Croats from Prozor started arming themselves. You also say that in

22 mid-1991, a Muslim Crisis Staff was established. You say that both events

23 took place in mid-1991.

24 A. Both events, first the Crisis Staff of the Croatian people was

25 established, and a month or two later, in response, the Crisis Staff of the

Page 7018

1 Bosniak people was also established. I think this was in September, after

2 the arrival of Serbian and Montenegrin forces in Mostar.

3 Q. So in your statement, on page 3, you said erroneously that in

4 mid-1991, the Crisis Staff of the Muslim people was established. Now you

5 say it was in November?

6 A. I didn't say November. I said September, around September. Let

7 me tell you, in the beginning, when this Crisis Staff was established, I

8 was not a member of it.

9 Q. Can you then tell us when this was? Because September is not

10 mid-1991. Can you tell us whether you have this information or not? You

11 can say you don't know.

12 A. I don't know the precise date for certain. I know it was

13 established in 1991 and that the Crisis Staff of the Croatian people was

14 established before that.

15 Q. When was it established?

16 A. Because I was working in a school at that time, I was a teacher,

17 I wasn't very interested until September in what was happening in Prozor,

18 until the forces arrived and Prozor was under threat, because Serbian and

19 Montenegrin forces arrived in Mostar. I think it was around the 18th of

20 September but it may have been a few days before or after.

21 Q. Does that mean that you don't actually know when it was

22 established?

23 A. I don't know precisely. It was in 1991. It was by the end of

24 the third part of 1991.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Previous translation continues] ... have to

Page 7019

1 intervene here. Is the question you're asking really important, is it

2 really important on what exact date the Crisis Staff, Croatian Crisis

3 Staff, was formed and then the Bosnian one or are you asking the question

4 in order to see whether what he wrote and what he says is precise? Because

5 the sentence says, "Mid-1991". So mid-1991 that could be July, August,

6 September, give or take a month here or there. So it is it really

7 important for your case or do you want to know whether the witness is

8 saying things precisely? That's what I'd like to know.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness spoke

10 about many things, in the view of the Defence, approximatively, especially

11 as regards dates and times. I believe that we have to establish logically

12 what is correct because in his statement the witness provides precise

13 dates. Some dates which are important.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, Witness, do

15 you know exactly when the Croatian Crisis Staff was established or are you

16 speaking in approximate terms? Can you give us a month?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know precisely, but I do

18 know it was in the first semester of 1991, by the end of the first

19 semester. That means that the Croatian Crisis Staff was established

20 before. I heard that from what people said. It was a small town.

21 Everybody knew what was going on in the town.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I will only ask you not to start your answer before I finish

24 because I have to switch my microphone on and off when I start and when I

25 finish. This cannot be done if you start replying before I finish putting

Page 7020

1 my question.

2 On page 5 of your statement, it's also page 5 in English, in

3 paragraph 2, you speak about an agreement between Milosevic and Tudjman.

4 At the time, when these events were taking place, in 1991 and 1992, what

5 did you know about this agreement?

6 A. I learned about it from the media, like all other citizens of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was widely reported in the newspapers and on

8 television. I know it was frequently a topic in the media at the time.

9 They said there had been secret talks. I didn't take part in them. I

10 wasn't there. But it said that the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina had

11 been discussed, and people said -- in Karadjordjevo.

12 Q. Could you please answer more briefly? I don't want to interrupt

13 you but please make your responses brief. On the same page, just a

14 paragraph above that, you spoke about so-called observation units and you

15 said that the Croats took their positions against the Serbs and that the

16 Bosniaks did not participate in this. And now you say it was also evident

17 that the Bosniaks of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not want war but a peaceful

18 solution. Later on, we assisted the HVO in manning the observation points.

19 Does that mean that in Prozor, the Bosniaks did not want war with the Serbs

20 who had taken up positions overlooking Prozor? Is that what you meant to

21 say?

22 A. I meant to say that on the basis of information and instructions

23 coming from the then state leadership and Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, he kept

24 saying, "We are not in favour of war. We want a peaceful solution. We

25 have to do everything possible to find a peaceful solution." But as we

Page 7021

1 know, this was not possible.

2 Q. When we link this up with the agreement between Milosevic and

3 Tudjman, you're a politician, I hear you held important positions in your

4 party, was it logical for Milosevic and Tudjman to agree on a division of

5 Bosnia? Why then would the Croats be manning a line facing the Serbs? Why

6 would they have to do that if they had agreed?

7 A. According to what I know and I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just

8 telling you what I know, the practical implementation did not coincide with

9 the interests of the parties because according to what the people were

10 saying and what the media were saying, the division of Bosnia should have

11 roughly been down the river Bosna and Neretva, western Croatia and eastern

12 Serbia. However, Milosevic claimed something quite different. He wanted

13 to claim everything where the Serbs lived, from Macedonia to Karlovag

14 [phoen].

15 Q. So they did not reach an agreement and an agreement -- you can

16 only talk about an agreement if both sides agree?

17 A. Well, Madam, I think you know this better than I do, but they

18 might have agreed but they didn't put that agreement into practice. They

19 didn't implement it so it all fell through.

20 Q. Can you tell us what option in March and April 1992 the Bosnian

21 Croats favoured, March/April, 1992 is the year?

22 A. All I can do is speak about the Prozor municipality.

23 Q. Tell me, then. But previously, please.

24 A. Yes, briefly. At the referendum, at the beginning of the first -

25 - I think it was the 1st of March, 1993, a referendum was held. The Croats

Page 7022

1 went to the elections together with the Bosniaks supported Bosnia-

2 Herzegovina. They voted for it.

3 Q. So the Croats were in favour of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes. They went to the elections and they voted for Bosnia-

5 Herzegovina, in favour of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which means that on the

6 territory of the state, about two-thirds of the overall population of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina voted in favour of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. All right. That's what you say in your statement, and it is to

9 be found on page 5. You say in March, April, of 1992 the Bosnian Croats

10 and the Bosnian Muslims wanted an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

11 Bosnian Serbs did not want that. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I want to ask you something now about something that we started

14 out from, our starting point, and that was the establishment of the HVO.

15 And my first questions to you, the Crisis Staffs and the TO, and I'm

16 referring to page 6 of your statement, page 6 of your statement, I think it

17 coincides in the English version, it's also on page 6. You say sometime in

18 March 1992 or the end of March 1992, the Bosnian Croats in Prozor

19 municipality established the HVO. HVO was divided into two parts, the

20 civilian and military part. Can you remember whether that was in March and

21 how do you happen to remember that? Did you hear that about -- from

22 someone? Where did you get this date March 1992 or were there rumours

23 going around or what?

24 A. Well, already in March 1992, some units were formed of the

25 Croatian Defence Council in Prozor, and that is why I said that and think

Page 7023

1 that. But then I read some documents later on, and so I might be wrong on

2 the exact day because I happened to read somewhere that Herceg-Bosna or

3 rather the Croatian Defence Council was established in the -- on the 8th of

4 April, 1992, around the 8th of April, I believe, and that there is a

5 document which I looked through -- well, I'll tell you where I saw the

6 document, a copy of the document, in fact. It was in a book written by Mr.

7 Mesud Hero, and he has a copy of the decision on the establishment of the

8 HVO included in the book, so maybe the decision was taken earlier but it

9 was official then.

10 Q. [Microphone not activated].

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Yes, that's right. You give us the wrong fact in your statement.

14 You gave us the wrong fact in your statement. But you didn't have to read

15 those books because you have the exact facts in your information of the

16 12th of March 1993 and it is Exhibit presented here from the information

17 you signed on the 12th of March, 1993, and in that report or information

18 note on page 2 of the Croatian version -- on page 3, I apologise, it's on

19 page 3 in the Croatian version, you state the following: You say that the

20 HVO was established on the --

21 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, perhaps the counsel gives the number

22 of the exhibit.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what I was going

24 to ask counsel. What is the exhibit number?

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'll give the exhibit number right

Page 7024

1 away. But I don't want to open the document because it will take too much

2 time. I think it is P 016 -- P 01656. It is page 2 in the Croatian

3 version and page 4 in the English. And the date mentioned there is the

4 10th of April. Now, the witness has said the 8th of April, 1992, whereas

5 the date mentioned in the document is the 10th of April.

6 Q. So if we say that it was in April and correct your statement on

7 that score, do you say that at the end of March 1992, the Presidency of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina ordered that every municipality had to establish a

9 Territorial Defence, TO? Was that so?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Very well. Now, can you tell me whether Bosnia and Herzegovina

12 at the time was recognised by the international community, had been

13 recognised as a state by the international community because we are still

14 in the end of March 199 -- at the end of March 1992, when we mentioned the

15 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 A. I'm talking about Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know the exact

17 date whether it was recognised by the United Nations but as the population

18 went out to vote in a referendum, that was enough, as far as I was

19 concerned, and it is true that the then Presidency ordered that TO Defence

20 Staffs were established in all the municipalities where they had been

21 abolished and the deadline was from the 1st to the 15th of April.

22 Q. You're not a lawyer, so those dates are not important for you but

23 I think that dates are important for the Court. You said you didn't know.

24 Now, this Territorial Defence, was it the Territorial Defence which was in

25 favour of the -- or rather, it took away all the weapons from you in

Page 7025

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. I said that the Presidency made the decision to establish

3 Territorial Defence staffs where they had not existed -- where they weren't

4 in existence and in Prozor it had been disbanded, the former Territorial

5 Defence Staff had been disbanded, abolished.

6 Q. Why had it been abolished or disbanded?

7 A. Well, I don't know why, but I do know that it was in 1991, but

8 don't hold me to that. Perhaps I might be wrong on the date. Any way,

9 that the former -- a former member of the Presidency of Yugoslavia, Mr.

10 Raif Dizdarvic, I think it was Raif Dizdarvic, I it was one of them but I

11 think it was Raif Dizdarevic in actual fact, that he ordered that all

12 weapons be come confiscated from the Territorial Defence and that they

13 should withdraw to the military barracks so as to avoid conflicts and that

14 was the wrong move to make.

15 Q. Yes. It was the wrong move to make. You're quite right on that

16 score. Now, tell me, please, when was the TO in Prozor established?

17 A. On the 1st of April, 1992 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but

23 could the usher hand round these documents? So may I have the usher's

24 help, please? I think this is the time to distribute these copies of the

25 document. We have three for Their Honours and one for the Prosecution.

Page 7026

1 Thank you.

2 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, perhaps in -- on page 68, line 9, we

3 should redact. Now we are dealing with the position to which the witness

4 was appointed.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. Mr.

6 Registrar, redact that, please.

7 Counsel Nozica, continue.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You said the 1st of April. Might that not have been the 28th of

10 March?

11 A. No, because on the 1st of April I was appointed and the Crisis

12 Staff of the Bosniak people sent in a request to the district staff of

13 Zenica to do that and I was officially appointed on the 1st of April but

14 the Crisis Staff at its meeting held several days prior to that, two or

15 three days before, sent in that request, but my letter of appointment says

16 the 1st of April, 1992, which is when the official Territorial Defence

17 Staff was established in Prozor and it was incomplete to begin with.

18 Didn't come up to strength.

19 Q. Perhaps it was the other way around.

20 A. No, because the previous Territorial Defence had been disbanded

21 in 1991. I don't know the exact date.

22 Q. Can we take a look at the document then? I think this would be

23 important. It is document P 01656. I don't want to go into too great a

24 detail but I think it says something different because you're being very

25 categorical. It is on page 3 in Croatian and page 4 in the English. Page

Page 7027

1 4 in the English. I'll read it out. Or perhaps you can read it for

2 yourself. I just want to make sure where it is in English. It is in the

3 last paragraph, the middle of the last paragraph on the right-hand side.

4 You can see the date, the 28th of March.

5 From the unexplainable positions of some of the members in

6 Prozor, at meetings with the HDZ of Prozor, and on those occasions, labels

7 were hurled at one another. The TO was formed on the 28th of March 1992,

8 with the participation of the representative of the SDA and the Crisis

9 Staff of the Muslim people, and this Crisis Staff of the Muslim people was

10 allegedly established at the beginning of February 1992.

11 So that brings us to the date when you claimed was the formation

12 of the Muslim Crisis Staff. You said September 1992. Whereas here it says

13 February 1992. And the TO was formed on the 28th of March, 1992, and not

14 the 1st of April, as you claim. So this is an information that you signed.

15 Am I right?

16 A. Madam, I don't think you understood me. What I said was this:

17 The Crisis Staff made a decision to establish a Territorial Defence Staff,

18 but for it to take effect, the ultimate decision must be taken by the

19 district staff of Zenica. (redacted)

20 (redacted).

21 Q. Yes. I understood you now and I understood you a moment ago the

22 first time when you said that the Crisis Staff of the Muslim people was

23 established in September whereas here you say February, which means before

24 the Croatian people set up their Crisis Staff. And you said that the TO

25 staff was established in April, and you're signing it on the 28th of March.

Page 7028

1 This is your report.

2 A. This was written on the 17th of February, 2002.

3 Q. Then tell us that you didn't say the right thing in your

4 statement but what you wrote in the information was correct.

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 MR. PORYVAEV: Again we should make a redaction because the

8 position was revealed.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 Yes, Mr. Registrar, would you issue an order to that effect?

11 Counsel, Nozica we are spending a great deal of time between the

12 28th of March and the 1st of April, only three days before. I don't see

13 where this is leading. Why you're investing such a lot of energy in to

14 defining this three days.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Microphone not activated].

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is seven months

18 difference from the time that the witness said he -- the Crisis Staff,

19 Muslim Crisis Staff, was established and what it says in the information

20 and I'll say why I'm raising that question.

21 Q. From these facts and figures, sir, we can conclude that the

22 Crisis Staff of the Bosniak people was established before the Croatian

23 Crisis Staff, can we?

24 A. I can't confirm that but what

25 I know is this --

Page 7029

1 Q. May we continue? Can I move on? Can you confirm that the TO of

2 Prozor municipality composed of the Bosniak people was formed before the

3 HVO?

4 A. Units were formed in the municipality, but organised units of the

5 HVO existed in Prozor before the municipal staff in Prozor. They were

6 formed. Now, who took the decision about their formation prior to --

7 previously, I don't know. It wasn't an important point and I didn't check

8 it out. I didn't check out when it was. But units on the ground did exist

9 before that.

10 Q. Now, you worked in this field for a long time. I don't want to

11 have to redact the transcript but you worked for a long time in all these

12 structures. Now, those units, could they have existed before they were

13 officially formed? So were there some non-official, illegal units?

14 Because could the TO have existed before it was established?

15 A. No. The TO could not have existed before it was officially

16 established.

17 Q. But you're saying that the HVO could.

18 A. No. I said that there were organised forces of the HVO on the

19 territory of the municipality before the establishment of the Territorial

20 Defence forces in Prozor and that's the truth 100 per cent, yes, they did

21 exist.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel, we are spending a

23 great deal of time on this. I have to channel the cross-examination in

24 order to avoid wasting time. The witness has on several occasions asserted

25 that the HVO in Prozor was constituted before the Territorial Defence of

Page 7030

1 the Bosniak people. If you have any proof to the contrary, put it to the

2 witness. Show him. And then we'll have things clear. Because you keep

3 asking your question and he keeps answering the same thing. Now, if you

4 have something to put to the witness, which refutes what he has said,

5 pursuant to Rule 90 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, show him that

6 he's wrong. Perhaps you have some orders, documents, which prove that the

7 Bosniak Territorial Defence existed before the HVO. If you have anything

8 like that, put them to the witness, show him the documents. Otherwise,

9 move on, because he is constant in maintaining his position. HVO units, he

10 says, were established before the Territorial Defence of the Bosniak

11 people.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] It seems that I'm doing my job very

13 badly, Your Honour, because if it is not evident from what I have put to

14 the witness, then I don't know. I put it to the witness and the witness

15 said that the HVO was formed first and then the Territorial Defence. The

16 witness also said that the HVO was officially established on the 8th of

17 April 1992. And that he learned that later on (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, again, we should make a correction,

23 redaction. I mean, on page 73, 14. Line 14.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, let's have a

25 redaction. We have to have a break now because we've been working for more

Page 7031

1 than an hour and a half, for technical reasons, I've been informed by the

2 registrar that we need to have a half an hour break. So we'll be resuming

3 at 6.10.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will resume now.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, in your statement, on page 9, of the Croatian version, at

9 the very bottom of the page, and it's page 9, paragraph 4 in the English

10 version, you refer to an incident that took place on the 23rd of October

11 1992 at a meeting, and you said that on that occasion, after a short

12 dispute, Ilija Petrovic returned and said while they are sitting over there

13 and drinking coffee the Territorial Defence was killing members of the HVO

14 in the east, and this concerned the incident on which occasion the

15 Territorial Defence from Gornji Vakuf killed a HVO member. His name was --

16 the name of that member was Zadro from the village of Dobrosa; do you

17 remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could we have 2D 00054 on the screen? It's from the registry of

20 the dead for Zadro and since it states that he is from Dobrosa, from Prozor

21 Rama, you can have a look at it, his name is Franjo. The date of his death

22 is the 23rd of October, 1992, 1300 hours. Is that the person you had in

23 mind in your statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. And you continue to say in your

Page 7032

1 statement, this was now used by the HVO in Prozor as an excuse to leave the

2 meeting. But first of all I'd like to ask you whether you know whether, in

3 some of your statements there was a dilemma as to whether anyone had been

4 killed in fact, and did you state in some statement that certain things

5 were checked and that no members of the Croatian army were killed on that

6 day?

7 A. Madam, when I was in Idovac with part of the army and when I

8 withdrew from there, when I arrived at Makljen, when I passed through with

9 30 soldiers, the body of that soldier was still there, and members of the

10 Gornji Vakuf Brigade told me that he had been killed on the 22nd. I'm not

11 claiming that he was killed on that date but they told me he was killed on

12 the 22nd and he was still there on the ground, his dead body was still

13 there. I saw him there on the 24th. He was dead at the time.

14 Q. [Microphone not activated].

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Could we see P 01656? It's a report dated the 12th of March,

18 1993. Could we have a look at page 9 in the Croatian version, the first

19 paragraph, and page 10, the first paragraph, in the English version? This

20 is a report, you know what it's about?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It's a report from the year 1993, and you signed it too?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in the report, you say the following: On that occasion all

25 the army members, all the members of the Croatian delegation, left the

Page 7033

1 premises where negotiations were taking place. There was a radio link from

2 the staff of the army, BH Prozor, and they confirmed that there was no

3 killing at that time in that area. At 1525, there was an intensive

4 artillery attack and you said that you saw that body in October.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just a minute. We mustn't overlap. On the 10th of March 1993,

7 in the -- in report, you say that the information was checked and no one

8 had been killed. How can you explain this difference?

9 A. Well, the member referred to wasn't killed in territory of the

10 municipality of Prozor. He was killed in part of Makljen, in the northern

11 part of Makljen. It's called Crni Vrh. That's where he was killed. He

12 was killed by members of the ABiH from Gornji Vakuf, so he wasn't killed in

13 our area. That's for sure. That's true.

14 Q. How do you know? Was an investigation launched into his killing?

15 Did they determine who killed him and where?

16 A. No, as far as I know, no one on our side conducted an

17 investigation but I saw the body, the body was on the ground, and they

18 didn't touch him for a few days. I don't know when they took him away. I

19 saw him lying on the ground, a member of the Territorial Defence from

20 Gornji Vakuf shot him, one of them told me who was there in the unit that

21 they had killed a HVO member from Prozor.

22 Q. You say that no one conducted an investigation after that?

23 A. I'm not claiming that but I don't know. On our side, no one

24 conducted an investigation because this incident didn't take place in the

25 area under the control of the ABiH in the municipality of Prozor.

Page 7034

1 Q. I'll leave Mr. Praljak's Defence the possibility of determining

2 which area you were located in at the time but let's continue with this

3 statement of yours. You say that the negotiations were interrupted, the

4 HVO left the meeting and 15 minutes later, there was an attack on Prozor,

5 so that was on the 23rd of October, 1992 at 1530. Does the name Asim

6 Hadzovic mean anything to you, a member of the 4th Corps of the ABiH?

7 A. At that time, the 4th Corps didn't even exist.

8 Q. We are talking about the 7th of December, 1992.

9 A. Well, 7th of December, that's fine, but I don't know that man.

10 Q. Who was the commander of the ABiH 4th Corps at the time?

11 A. The commander of the ABiH 4th Corps was Mr. Arif Pasalic.

12 Q. Does the name Mirsad Catic mean anything for you?

13 A. Mirsad Catic, I've heard that name somewhere but I don't know in

14 what context. Perhaps his nickname is Cuperak.

15 Q. At the time, was Mirsad Catic the commander of the municipal

16 staff?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Where? In Prozor?

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. What date?

22 Q. On the 7th of December, 1992?

23 A. No, he wasn't.

24 Q. Could we have a look at the following document?

25 A. Let me just add something. Towards the end of October, 1992,

Page 7035

1 after the fall of Prozor, someone was temporarily appointed as commander of

2 the staff from Prozor or Konjic. His name was Mirsad Cukle but he only had

3 that position a few days. He's still alive today.

4 Q. Could we have a look at Defence document 2D 00148, the first page

5 in the Croatian version and it's also the first page in the English

6 version. Could we just have the Croatian version? I don't know whether

7 the witness can read this.

8 A. It's not very legible. Could you read it out for me perhaps

9 because it's difficult for me. Now it's better.

10 Q. Yes. We can see the name Asim Hadzovic, a member of the ABiH 4th

11 Corps, 7th of December. He is submitting a written report on disciplinary

12 investigations conducted. There is a decision dated the 3rd of December,

13 1992. A commission was formed. Have you ever heard about this commission

14 that consisted of Asim Hadzovic, Kemal Jusufovic and Mustafa Begovic. It

15 had to do with disciplinary proceedings.

16 A. I've never seen this document. I can't confirm its authenticity.

17 Q. I'm not asking you to do that. But do you know these people I've

18 mentioned?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic whom you mentioned?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know that disciplinary proceedings were instituted against

23 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

24 A. Zejnil Delalic was based in Konjic and I was based in Stipe. In

25 the territory of Prozor municipality, I only had a radio post. I didn't

Page 7036

1 have any other means of communication and it wasn't necessary for me to

2 communicate with Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

3 Q. Could we have a look at the -- at page 2 in the Croatian version?

4 It's the last paragraph that's been translated. The entire document hasn't

5 been translated. It will be. But only what is stated in the last

6 translated paragraph is of importance to this witness. I'll tell you what

7 it's about now, and let's see if you can remember this. This commission

8 was formed -- I'm going back to the first page so that I can read it out to

9 you, and Delalic Amir was also a member. Let's have a look at the previous

10 page in the Croatian version. It says that the commission from Mostar set

11 off at about 11.00 and arrived in Parsovic about 1300 hours. We were

12 received by the commander of the municipal staff there, Mr. Mirsad Catic,

13 together with his associates and the commander of the Neretvica Brigade,

14 Mr. -- full stop. Mr. Catic Mirsad, commander of the municipal staff

15 briefly informed the commission of the situation and informed us of certain

16 other elements and then certain other elements are mentioned. Certain

17 other information that he had obtained in the investigation against Zejnil

18 Delalic and the prison warden in Celebici, Zdravko. And on the second

19 page, in the first, second and third paragraph it says, "Zejnil Delalic is

20 guilty for everything that took place in the territory of the zone of his

21 zone of responsibility."

22 What was Mr. Zejnil Delalic's zone of responsibility in 1992

23 up until the month of December?

24 A. Zejnil Delalic, as far as I know, I haven't seen these documents

25 but as far as I heard, at the beginning of August, I don't know the exact

Page 7037

1 date, at the beginning of August 1992 he was appointed as the commander of

2 the Igman operative group. At the command place Igman. And he didn't have

3 command over the territory of Prozor municipality. It was only in August

4 that he became commander of this group. Up until August he was a

5 coordinator between the Territorial Defence Staff in Konjic and the

6 municipal bodies of power. He was a coordinator.

7 Q. Could we have a look at document P 00413? And then we'll come

8 back to Zejnil Delalic, given your answer. P 00413. We can see the date,

9 the 8th of August, 1992. It's addressed to -- I apologise, the 28th of

10 August, 1992. It's addressed to the municipal staff of the BH armed

11 forces, order -- I haven't got much time but it's an order signed by Zejnil

12 Delalic. Can you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So in August, could he have any contact or any relation with

15 Prozor and the municipal staff in Prozor?

16 A. No. In 1998, at this Tribunal, I was asked about this. I can

17 claim with full responsibility that Zejnil Delalic couldn't have signed

18 this. At that time, I told the Chamber that they should get a

19 graphologist, a writing expert, to see whether Zejnil Delalic had signed

20 this but even if he had signed this, this order wouldn't have been valid

21 because Prozor municipality was not under his command.

22 Q. I'm not asking you about that. You've seen this document.

23 You've seen that he has signed this.

24 A. I don't know anything about that.

25 Q. Very well. But you've seen that order and the Prosecution

Page 7038

1 provided this order to us.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. You've said

3 something important. This document provided by the Prosecution, P 413 is

4 the number, the date is the 28th of August and it's signed by Delalic,

5 commander of the Territorial Defence in Prozor. It's an order which, in

6 view of an incident that took place on the 27th of August, not the 23rd, a

7 request is made to withdraw the armed forces from Bosnia and Herzegovina

8 under control -- under the control of the municipal staff, et cetera. And

9 you say that this is a false order because at the time Delalic wasn't

10 commander of the Prozor Territorial Defence. That's what you said a minute

11 ago.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. At this time, the commander

13 on that day, the commander of the Territorial Defence of Prozor

14 municipality was Muharem Sabic, Muharem Sabic, Muharem Sabic. And the day

15 before the decision was issued I was at Idovac at the positions there when

16 the incident at Prozor occurred. This was on Thursday, the 7th of August.

17 You can check this. I know the precise date.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you're concerned,

19 the document that you're being shown is one that you challenge; is that

20 right? You're challenging the document?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not the commander of the

22 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence at the time. I'm 100 per cent

23 sure of that.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The Bench is always curious today. There is

Page 7039

1 something that must be set straight. We are talking about an order dated

2 28th of August. You have told us, Witness, that the day before, you had --

3 you were at somewhere else, at the positions. This was, I read.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At Idovac, not in Prozor.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You say this was Thursday the 7th of August.

6 That would not be the day before. That would be three weeks before the

7 28th of August.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 27th of August, there was an

9 incident when a group of HVO extremists arrived in Prozor and riddled some

10 buildings with bullets. They caused great damage to buildings owned by

11 Bosniaks and it was only due to the presence of mind of the then commander

12 of the municipal staff that a tragedy was avoided and nobody was killed.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You have now corrected the date and said 27th

14 of August, while before you had said or it is in the record 7th of August

15 and that means that this is settled.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the 27th, the 27th. It was

17 a Thursday. I even know the day. You can check and you'll find that the

18 day was a Thursday.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I only wish to make a correction. The witness knows this very

21 well. Mr. Zejnil Delalic at that time was not the commander of the TO

22 staff. He was the commander of tactical group 1 and that is what it says

23 here in this document. TG 1. Not TO. TG.

24 A. TG, tactical group.

25 Q. After this, I wish to ask you did you know Zejnil Delalic's

Page 7040

1 brother?

2 A. His brother lived in Prozor. His name was Zahid. He was known

3 as Zajka. He has died in the meantime. He lived and worked in Prozor.

4 Q. As you were very quick to describe these people as extremists,

5 who attacked on the 27th as you say, could we take a look at document 2D

6 00055? 2D 00055. It's a report on the work of the Prozor municipal staff

7 and it was signed by Mr. Muharem Sabic on the 16th of September 1992. Take

8 a look at page 1, please. And then let's go back to page 2, in the English

9 language, or, rather in the Croatian language, and page 2D 0600021 in

10 English. I think that's also page 2. Let's see what Muharem Sabic says

11 about these people you call extremists and everything you said. It's the

12 first it -- fifth paragraph in Croatian. Relations with the HVO are not at

13 a satisfactory level which was best seen in the night of August the 27th to

14 28th, 1992, when there was even a conflict in the town of Prozor in which

15 there were wounded on both sides. Those who were in Prozor at the time say

16 it was a conflict, but you, who were not in Prozor, say it was an attack by

17 Croatian extremists. Who was closer to these events and who was in a

18 better position to know what actually happened? You or Mr. Sabic? Mr.

19 Sabic could know more details because he was a commander. [Microphone not

20 activated].

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

22 A. But let me tell you there was a document to show I'm right. A

23 meeting was held after this and the Croats, the chief of the municipality,

24 agreed to make good the damages done to the Bosniaks.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

Page 7041

1 Q. This does not prove there was an attack. It could have been a

2 conflict between two sides as explained by Mr. Sabic. Can we go back to 2D

3 00148, page 2 in Croatian and I will conclude with this. This is the

4 document we have just seen, a document of the 4th Corps, 2D 00148. I read

5 out page 2 to you a while ago and the last paragraph which is translated

6 into English, it's dated in December. The commander of the corps is

7 reporting on disciplinary proceedings against Zejnil Delalic and it says

8 the following: "With respect to Zejnil Delalic, it is mentioned that he's

9 guilty of everything that took place in his area of responsibility. With

10 respect to Colonel Jovan Divjak, he suspects that he was involved with

11 Zejnil regarding the actions at Prozor and provoking a conflict between

12 Muslims and Croats and that there was supposed to be a war on a wider

13 territory so that the Muslims would be drawn into a war against the Croats.

14 Also it was mentioned that Colonel Divjak was aware of Zejnil's order and

15 that he did not take the necessary measures although he was present in the

16 area."

17 Can we show page 5 to the witness? Not to confirm authenticity

18 but just so that the witness can see who the document was signed by. Thank

19 you. There is a commission here, Asim Hadzovic, Kemal Jusufovic, Mustafa

20 Begovic and Amir Belalovic [phoen]. Are you aware, sir, that the army of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 4th Corps conducted an investigation because there

22 were grounds to suspect that the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina had

23 provoked a conflict with the Croats in the area of Prozor?

24 A. I know that the 4th Corps conducted an investigation but I don't

25 know who these people are. I know that as a consequence of that

Page 7044

1 Q. TG Konjic?

2 A. I think they were officially called TG 1. I think it was a

3 little different but it was called the tactical group 1, and it was the

4 successor of another tactical group.

5 Q. Very well. What matters is that you know what unit this was. In

6 your statement, you say that on the 2nd of November, 1992, there was a

7 meeting in Konjic which you were supposed to attend but your car broke down

8 and you were late and then you waited in Konjic for Vehbija Karic and

9 Zejnil Delalic to come back from Prozor; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You met them and they told you what had transpired at the meeting

12 in Prozor and what decisions or agreement had been achieved there; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could the witness please be shown document 3D 00418? When the

16 document shows up, would you please pay attention to the part of the text

17 under point 5? I'll ask you whether -- well, we can't read the document

18 yet. Can we please zoom in on point 5? It says here that at 1500 hours, a

19 meeting was held in Prozor. Do you see the text here?

20 A. It's not very legible.

21 Q. Yes, true. I don't have a better version either. If we can zoom

22 in a little bit. I will read and please try to follow. Well, now we can

23 see it. You can see that at 1500 hours a meeting was held and the

24 attendees are listed. You know Vehbija Karic, you also mentioned Arif

25 Pasalic.

Page 7045

1 A. He was the corps commander.

2 Q. With his escort, then Safet Rucovic [phoen], Camil Skokovic,

3 Zijad Demirovic and Zejnil Delalic; is that correct?

4 A. I was invited to the meeting. I was supposed to attend but I

5 wasn't there as I said in my statement.

6 Q. This document says that these people were in Prozor and that they

7 talked to General Praljak; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Does it say in this document that as they were walking around

10 Prozor, a renegade team of the HVO and HOS were roasting a lamb, they were

11 dragging a flag with lilies through the mud and so on and so forth, but not

12 even Praljak had the authority to make them listen to him. They were

13 talking about Balijas, saying it was better for them not to come back, and

14 they were making fun of and threatening us with BH army insignia. In this

15 situation, no one could guarantee the safe return of the families who had

16 fled or the soldiers of the army. There are still seven members detained

17 and so on. Promising that on the next day they would be conditionally --

18 provisionally released. General Praljak was evidently embarrassed because

19 of the situation and he issued several oral orders and was intending to

20 issue a written order on the following day. Was that the situation Vehbija

21 Karic and Delalic described on their return to Konjic?

22 A. Well, they didn't describe all the details but they said they had

23 seen a very unpleasant situation. There wasn't enough time for them to

24 tell me all the details but I was surprised by something that was allegedly

25 and I stress allegedly Mr. Arif Pasalic, when he entered Prozor, at the

Page 7046

1 fire station, it said the Ustasha centre or the Ustasha club. He said that

2 on television. He said when he entered Prozor, he saw this written there

3 and then someone present, possibly General Praljak, ordered that this be

4 taken down. So there was certainly that inscription there.

5 Q. Thank you. In connection with this document, I wish to ask you

6 the following: In the document it says that General Praljak issued oral

7 orders and promised to make them in writing. Is that correct? Is that

8 what I have just read out?

9 A. Yes. You have read this out.

10 Q. It states so here?

11 A. Yes, but as I was not there, I cannot confirm it. I believe that

12 if they wrote this down, then Mr. Praljak did it. I believe that. Whether

13 it was implemented, I don't know. Well, that's open, an open issue.

14 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Please show the witness 3D 00290.

15 [Microphone not activated].

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

17 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

18 Q. This meeting and the report, when it was, on the 4th of November,

19 1992; is that right? That's what it says. Now after the 4th of November,

20 you have a document before you and the date on that next document is the

21 6th of November, 1992. It is an order. Now, if we were to go to the

22 bottom of the order, the end of it, on page 2, you will see that the order

23 was issued by General Major Slobodan Praljak, and there are two stamps.

24 The department of Defence of Herceg-Bosna and the Territorial Defence, with

25 the Territorial Defence insignia there. Can you see that? The left -- the

Page 7047

1 stamp on the left. There are two stamps. You can see that there are two.

2 One with the lilies. Can you see that? [Microphone not activated]?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel,

4 please.

5 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Now, linked to this order --

7 A. I can't see a lily there. No lilies.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak is on his feet.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] On the left is the joint

10 command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO. On the left-hand

11 side. You have half the coat of arms, which is the Bosnian, and half is

12 the Croatian coat of arms.

13 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I think you can see that clearly.

15 A. Well, yes.

16 Q. Do you know about this order? Were you aware of it?

17 A. I do but it was never implemented.

18 Q. There were never any mixed controls?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And where were you?

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 Q. Don't keep saying what you were.

Page 7048

1 A. Well, I was -- I came to take up the post at the beginning of

2 November with headquarters in Scipe.

3 Q. So you weren't in the area where this order referred -- which

4 this order refers to?

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop for a moment. Mr.

6 Registrar, please have that redacted for the transcript. You didn't

7 indicate it was 3D 000419. Was that the number of the document? You

8 didn't say it, counsel.

9 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] 3D 00419. It's the same as 3D

10 00290. But 3D 00419 has the archive stamp so there is no doubt about its

11 provenance. I should now like to have the witness answer the following

12 question.

13 Q. According to your statement you were arrested at the end of

14 November 1992. Is that correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. All right. Fine. Also pursuant to an order from General Praljak

17 you were released the next day; is that right?

18 A. Well, I have to say a few sentences to explain.

19 Q. [Microphone not activated].

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please, microphone.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because Mr. Praljak came from

22 a meeting in Konjic with Mr. Begic.

23 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

24 Q. We'll come to that. What I'm asking you now is whether you were

25 released the very next day?

Page 7049

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Fine. Were you interviewed or interrogated while you

3 were incarcerated?

4 A. Yes, interrogated and beaten.

5 Q. I'd like to show the witness another document now, it is P 889.

6 Or perhaps it is 0889 because it is a Prosecution document, P 0889, 00889

7 is the document number. It is a criminal report filed against you. Did

8 you know about that?

9 A. No. Who filed it?

10 Q. [Microphone not activated].

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, microphone.

12 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

13 Q. The Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Defence

14 Council the date is the 10th of December, 1992, in that criminal report

15 among other things it is stated that it is filed against you. However,

16 that -- a conversation with you was conducted and pursuant to Slobodan

17 Praljak, General Major, you were released, that you went to the Konjic

18 municipality where you most probably reside at present.

19 May we take care that the witness's name does not appear?

20 Because it's on the document. On the screen. But that corresponds to the

21 time you were interrogated. That is to say the 29th of November 1992.

22 Right?

23 A. It is correct that I was arrested and interrogated then, yes.

24 Q. [Microphone not activated]?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

Page 7050

1 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And you were released pursuant to an order from General Praljak?

3 A. Yes, because Mr. Praljak came from Konjic, from a meeting where I

4 was supposed to attend too at Zlatar. I wasn't there. They informed Mr.

5 Praljak. They told him to go there. Mr. Praljak arrived together with

6 Zlatko Velic and they released me and we decided on certain activities ad I

7 was let go.

8 Q. Thank you. Now apart from you, some other individuals were

9 released when you were released?

10 A. Together with me, when I was arrested, there were 15 other

11 soldiers from the BH army.

12 Q. May the witness now be shown the next document, it is 3D 00291.

13 It is a report which is dated the 18th of December 1992, and it says that

14 General Praljak arrived in Prozor and upon his arrival, immediately upon

15 his arrival, he issued orders for the group of detainees to be released and

16 amongst that group were you yourself. So that bears out what you said;

17 right?

18 A. Yes, the 30th.

19 Q. Now, General Praljak will discuss what the meeting was about,

20 which subjects were discussed. All I'm going to ask you now is something

21 linked to the Territorial Defence. When you said that there was a decision

22 to form units of the Territorial Defence -- or rather when did you say that

23 happened?

24 A. I received an order for my appointment, the decision was prepared

25 to -- by the Crisis Staff. But it was the district staff of Zenica that

Page 7051

1 had the final say. In the order of the district staff of Zenica, it said

2 that I was appointed to that duty, that I was appointed to, on the 1st of

3 April.

4 Q. I didn't ask you when you were appointed. I asked you when the

5 units of the Territorial Defence were established.

6 A. Well, this is how it was. The first official unit that the staff

7 set up, the first official unit established, was established on the 3rd of

8 April. (redacted)

9 (redacted). I worked there before that.

10 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour --

11 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

12 Q. In answer to a question from Counsel Nozica, you referred to a

13 decision by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina by which

14 units of the Territorial Defence are established, shall be established.

15 A. Madam, the order was to form Territorial Defence Staffs. Now the

16 formation of -- it was the staffs that form units, that establish units.

17 Q. May the witness be shown the next document, 3D 000420? 3D

18 000420. Have we got that up on the screen? It is a decision, as you can

19 see, by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which says

20 that on the 27th of May, 1992, units of the Territorial Defence be formed.

21 Is that what it says? On the formation of Territorial Defence units?

22 A. Yes, that's what it says. That's right.

23 Q. Now, would you read out point 1? Which was the first territorial

24 unit to be established?

25 A. The following unit of the Territorial Defence is being formed,

Page 7052

1 under number 1 it says the Bosnian Herzegovinian Brigade the Kraj Tomislav

2 and as brigade commander, General Mate Sarlija is appointed. The TO Zenica

3 Brigade, that was someone else. Et cetera.

4 Q. All right. Fine. So if you look at the names there, play we

5 scroll down, please, to see the bottom of the document? Yes. If you look

6 at those names, who were the commanders of the brigades or, rather,

7 Territorial Defence detachments?

8 A. Where?

9 Q. [Microphone not activated].

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please. Microphone.

11 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Ethnically speaking?

13 A. Mr. Mate Sarlija was a Bosniak but he took the name of Mate

14 Sarlija but he's not a Croat at all although he took that name. He's not a

15 Croat. I can't remember but I will remember in due course his name was

16 really Batlak.

17 Q. Nijaz Batlak?

18 A. I don't know about Nijaz but I know that he was Batlak. I'm

19 quite certain of that and I met him on one occasion so he wasn't a Croat at

20 all, he was a Muslim, a Bosniak, if you like.

21 Q. Yes, we agree, sir.

22 A. Well, that's how it was. You needn't agree but that's how things

23 were.

24 Q. And the other names are Bosniaks, Muslims, right?

25 A. Well, I just happened to know number 5 on the list.

Page 7053

1 Q. [Microphone not activated]?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Look at the names.

5 A. I know Mr. Sehovic, I knew him. And as for the rest.

6 Q. That will do. Thank you.

7 A. I don't know any of the others.

8 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. I'll

9 leave sometime for the general. He has questions of his own which he can

10 put tomorrow, I assume.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, because it's already five

12 minutes past 7.00. Theoretically speaking, General Praljak has, well, just

13 do the maths, how much time, to see how much time he has. I think he

14 should have around 30 minutes, unless I'm very much mistaken but the

15 registrar will correct me if I'm wrong. As I said, it is five minutes past

16 7.00, I invite you all back tomorrow whether the proceedings reconvene at

17 2.15. Thank you.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

20 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.