1 Thursday, 16 November 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you call

7 the case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 I'd like to say good afternoon to all the parties and the witness

12 as well, the Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and everybody else.

13 I have an oral decision, a brief one, to give you which regards BZ

14 and the exhibits tendered. BZ appeared on the 9th of November, 2006. The

15 Chamber has decided to admit all the exhibits presented and tendered by

16 the Prosecution on the list IC 0085 [as interpreted], because they have

17 certain probative value and relevance. I see that in the transcript there

18 is a 0 missing. So it is IC 00085.

19 Having said that, I would like to take the opportunity of saying

20 that we have a witness for next week, and the Prosecution will be applying

21 92 ter procedure, which means that we should get through him rather

22 quickly. The Chamber has deliberated and considers that the Defence will

23 have approximately two hours for the cross-examination of that witness.

24 Since you have already been informed of the fact that the

25 Prosecution has asked for protective measures for the said witness, if

1 there are no objections from the Defence, the Chamber will accord those

2 protective measures for that witness as requested.

3 We're going to start off with the testimony of this next witness

4 within the frameworks of 92 ter. And without further ado, I give the

5 floor to the Prosecution.

6 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. [In

7 English] I'm going to proceed to read the summary of the statement, Your

8 Honours.

9 In 1993, the witness was 13 years old. He lived in the upper part

10 of Sovici in the area called Kovaci. The village was attacked on the 17th

11 of April, 1993. The shelling had started at 8.00, and a lot of grenades

12 were landing very near the witness house. When the HVO took over Sovici,

13 the villagers were ordered to go to the school building. In front of the

14 school the soldiers were separated from the villagers. Women and children

15 were taken inside the school while the men of military age were taken to

16 an unfinished house nearby.

17 On 18 April, 1993, when the witness was in the school building, he

18 could see from the reflection on the windows that the Muslim houses were

19 being set on fire. He heard a big explosion when the HVO soldiers blew up

20 the mosque which exploded and fell to the ground. The witness later on

21 passed by the destroyed mosque when he was taken out of the school by HVO

22 soldiers to dig graves for -- to dig graves for them.

23 Several days after the incident, women and children were sent to

24 Juzunovici. The witness stayed in the building of the school along with

25 54 other Muslim men including elderly ones. One day, two unknown soldiers

1 arrived to the school and called out four names and ordered them out of

2 the school. Five minutes later, the witness heard four shots. One man

3 who was in the -- in the school, looked out the window and he was taken

4 out as well by the same soldiers. Later on, he heard another shot. These

5 men never came back to school.

6 HVO soldiers guarding the school physically mistreated detainees

7 including the witness. The witness, along with other detainees, was taken

8 to perform forced labour for HVO soldiers in the hills of Pisvir. They

9 dug trenches for about three weeks there.

10 In May, 1993, along with other Muslims from Sovici, the witness

11 was transferred to Gornji Vakuf.

12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 MR. KOVACIC: If I may. [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure what

15 importance a summary is read out by the Prosecutor, as far as we've heard

16 it, but if it does have any significance, except by way of a piece of

17 information, I'd like to point out to the Trial Chamber that on page 2,

18 the last paragraph of the witness statement, dated the 12th of March,

19 1999, the last sentence on that page, the witness expressly states that he

20 didn't see anybody placing an explosive in the mosque. "All I saw was the

21 mosque exploding and being set on fire."

22 Now, a moment ago, my learned colleague said that the HVO soldiers

23 must have been the perpetrators. This is not something we allow in

24 criminal law. It is something that can be furthered in civil law, but I

25 think that it is pre-emptive.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Kovacic, are we to

2 draw the conclusion that the mosque blew up all of its own accord?

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. We will see from

4 our exhibits and documents that the mosque was indeed blown up, but we do

5 not know who blew it up. It could have been blown up by madmen. It could

6 have been blown up by Muslims, Croats, members of the HVO, non-members of

7 the HVO, people out of control, under control. There are various

8 possibilities.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Counsel, there are various

10 possibilities.

11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] But the burden of proof is on the

12 Prosecutor, and I don't think -- and I wrote about this in my pre-trial

13 brief. I don't think that the criteria of saying nobody else but them

14 could have done it is just something that is unacceptable.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We hear you.

16 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. [In

17 English] These are questions for cross-examination, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I understood.

19 MR. LONGONE: It's just a summary for the purpose of the benefit

20 of the public. Thank you.

21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. We were -- went

23 very quickly and we forgot to have the witness take the solemn

24 declaration. We're going to do that quickly now. For the transcript,

25 would you give us your name, first name, last name, and date of birth.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nihad Kovac. I was born

2 in December, the 15th of December, 1979.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And what is your

4 profession at present?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a driver by profession.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Have you ever

7 testified before an international or national tribunal, sir, about the

8 events that took place in your village or is this the first time that

9 you're testifying?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a first time I'm a public

11 witness, testifying publicly.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, independently

13 of the fact that you were questioned by the investigators from the OTP,

14 were you also questioned by investigators from your own country?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And do you know for what

17 purpose, for what proceedings, before what judge and tribunal?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is that it was in 1999 in

19 Sarajevo that I was interviewed.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would you now read

21 out the solemn declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

25 WITNESS: NIHAD KOVAC

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since the Prosecution hadn't

3 asked you any questions before you had taken the solemn declaration, you

4 may now continue.

5 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examination by Mr. Longone:

7 Q. So good afternoon, Mr. Kovac.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. Do you remember being interviewed by someone from this Tribunal in

10 the past?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recall when?

13 A. Yesterday.

14 Q. Yes. And before the meeting you had yesterday, do you remember on

15 the 12th of March, 1999, having given a statement to the Office of the

16 Prosecutor?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember -- did you answer the questions truthfully at that

19 time?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And did you give your statement voluntarily?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. At the end of the interview, do you recall the statement being

24 read back to you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And it was read in your own language?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you recall signing that statement and saying that what you

4 had said was the best of your knowledge and recollection?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. LONGONE: Could the witness be shown the hard copy of the

7 statement bearing Exhibit Prosecution 9728.

8 Q. You have the opportunity to -- to read this statement before

9 coming here to the Tribunal today?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And after reading the statement, do you recollect making some

12 corrections to it?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Do you recognise the signatures on the first page of the

15 statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that your statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you go through the rest of the pages of the statement, could

20 you -- could you see your initials there?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

23 A. You're welcome.

24 Q. In your statement, you have referred to the -- sorry. You have

25 referred to the attacks of Sovici.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You have referred, as well, to the troops that were involved in

3 the attacks?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember which troops were those?

6 A. The HVO.

7 Q. All right. And in your statement you mentioned that the village

8 was attacked by sort of fire artillery.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you also mentioned that you were taken to -- afterwards to do

11 forced labour at certain positions?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues]

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I would like to put to the witness Exhibit 2 -- Prosecution 2009.

16 Sorry, excuse me. 1 -- 1915. Yes, you can check there.

17 This is an interim report dated 16th of April, 1993. If you go to

18 the last page of it, at the end in your -- in your own -- in B/C/S, in

19 B/C/S at the end, you have the name of a person. Could you please read it

20 to me starting with Zeljko. At the end. At the bottom of the page.

21 A. Zeljko Siljeg.

22 Q. And on top of it, could you please read what it starts

23 with "Forward post command".

24 A. It's barely legible on my copy.

25 Q. Yeah. No problem. I will address you, then, to point 1 of that

1 document. If you can look at it.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, the witness was

3 13 years old when the events took place. You're showing him a military

4 document. "Forward command post," things like that mean nothing to him.

5 Ask him about the pertinent paragraphs so that he can confirm them.

6 MR. LONGONE:

7 Q. Could you please address to point 2. Could you please read that

8 one?

9 A. "Establish a wire connection with facilities --

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness -- perhaps I'm doing the same as you.

11 Are you not, at present, living in the United States?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Would it not be quite as easy for you to do this

14 in English?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but if it was a better copy,

16 more legible.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. I think that indeed there are no problems

18 at all with the English version of this -- I'm sorry, Mr. Karnavas.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Judge Trechsel. Mr. President, again, I

20 fail to see the exercise of this -- the point of this exercise. We're

21 having the gentleman read a document of which he had absolutely no contact

22 with, no knowledge of. If we can get a narration perhaps from the

23 witness, you know, and then maybe show the document and say does this

24 verify. Otherwise, we're leading. I really cannot comprehend what kind

25 of a trial this is turning into. I'm sorry, but I really don't understand

1 this procedure. It's foreign to me. It's foreign in any system.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 MR. LONGONE: I will try to -- I will try to ask the witness.

4 Q. You mentioned that you were taken to forced labour in the Pisvir

5 elevations, isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Where there were HVO troops?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you please read the English version, point 2.

10 A. [In English] "Establish a wire connection with facilities

11 Boksevica, Pisvir, Sovicka Vrata and with the command of the Mijat Tomic

12 Battalion in the village -- Mijat Tomic Battalion in the village of

13 Doljani."

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As a rule, Mr. Prosecutor, you

16 should ask him this question, but I'm going to ask it.

17 Now, it appears that in this military document, the word Pisvir

18 figures. Is that the area, the place where you carried out forced labour

19 that the soldiers wanted you to do?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There we have it. Let's move

22 on.

23 MR. LONGONE: The following exhibit: 2009, Prosecution.

24 Q. Yes. In your statement, you mention that the houses in Sovici

25 were set on fire, Muslim houses.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you mentioned as well that there was a tank around the village

3 after the attacks.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please read this third paragraph of that starting

6 with "Almost"?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: For the convenience of the witness, Your Honour, we

8 have no objection to the Prosecutor reading -- reading that section and

9 asking the witness whether he can verify it. I think it might be a little

10 bit more appropriate under the circumstances.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Mr. Karnavas,

12 for your contribution there.

13 The Defence has understood it that we could move forward by you

14 reading out the passage and then asking your question after that. We'll

15 gain time that way.

16 MR. LONGONE:

17 Q. "Almost all the Muslim houses are set on fire in Sovici ..." Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And during the attack or after the attack, did you see any

21 internationals in the village, international observers?

22 A. No. During the attack you mean?

23 Q. Yes. During the attack and after you were taken to the school.

24 A. No. Except the HVO units, and I didn't know those people.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Next exhibit, 2052. This is a document

1 signed by Marko Rozic, director of the Defence Department of Jablanica

2 municipality.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In order to speed up, this

4 document, we've already referred to it. Counsel Nozica, I think, asked it

5 not to be included, but the Chamber deliberated and the document will be

6 admitted.

7 MR. LONGONE:

8 Q. You see this document? This document --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- defence department of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind that

12 the exhibit will be admitted with the previous witness, then I think the

13 Prosecutor has no need to ask questions about this document again. We're

14 just wasting time, because you can't have this document tendered and

15 admitted twice.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Right. This document was

17 admitted through another witness earlier on.

18 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Well, we'll move on to another

19 document then. May we have Exhibit 2535.

20 Q. [In English] You have mentioned that the people were -- from

21 military age, were assembled in Sovici and taken to Ljubuski.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And you mentioned as well that your uncle and father and

1 some friends were taken there, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And under number --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Ibrisimovic.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is another

6 document that we've already admitted. Yes. This document has been

7 admitted, so there's no point in examining the witness on this. It's just

8 a waste of time showing the same documents over and over again.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document has already been

10 admitted, so you can just give the names of his father and uncle and he

11 can give you a yes or no answer.

12 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Yes I agree, Your Honour. Thank

13 you.

14 Q. 63.

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Kovac Ibro Ramo?

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: What about number 20? No, sorry. I withdraw.

18 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation]

19 Q. 63. Kovac, Ramo, son of Ibro. Is that your father?

20 A. No, that's my uncle.

21 Q. And at the end of the page, 106. Skender Nesir Armin?

22 A. That's a friend. He was two years older than me.

23 Q. Thank you very much. This document is related to the following

24 one --

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You -- I'm sorry. Just to make this clear. You

1 say this friend of yours was two years older than you, so he was 15 years

2 of age at that point; correct?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

5 MR. LONGONE:

6 Q. And you also mention in your statement that your -- you also

7 mention in your statement that your father was transferred to Heliodrom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Exhibit 2546, Your Honours. It's a report from the military

10 police regarding the 106 detainees that were -- that were transferred to

11 Heliodrom and is related to the exhibit that was just mentioned.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 In view of the contents of this document, which includes a lot of things,

15 not only what the Prosecutor just said, I think it would be advisable to

16 point out which passage is being indicated to the witness and how they

17 will identify it, because from the previous document, we did see that

18 maybe it's useful to ask him how many people there were, where they were

19 going, et cetera, because he just identified his father and uncle.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the -- the Prosecutor, you

21 could say that this document mentions the transfer of so many persons

22 headed for such-and-such a prison, et cetera.

23 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Yes. It is at the end of this

24 document. 28th May, 1993. It is said that he got an order from Berko

25 Pusic and Valentin Coric to transfer the prisoners to the Heliodrom

1 prison.

2 [In English] Now I will request to put to the witness Exhibit

3 7985.

4 Q. And if you could please go to line -- point 36 and 37.

5 A. That's my cousin and father -- uncle and father. That's my uncle.

6 Q. And the person under it, 37?

7 A. That's my father.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please read that?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Not

11 to waste time later, I have a couple of technical objections to this

12 document of the military prosecution office in Mostar, whereby an exchange

13 is agreed.

14 If we look at the original on which --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic, it will be

16 better to voice your objections when you have the floor, and that will be

17 very soon, because we believe that objections, technical, legal, or other,

18 should be voiced during your cross-examination, and that will be the time

19 to present your arguments.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, please.

22 MR. LONGONE:

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that four persons were taken

24 out from the school in Sovici?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What happened there?

2 A. Four men were taken out, four shots were heard. And after that,

3 the fifth man who was taken out, looked through the window because in fact

4 he didn't dare look outside and what was going on outside and what the

5 shots were. They saw him looking through the window and that's when they

6 took him out. After that, we heard another shot, and those men were never

7 seen again.

8 Q. Could you please see Exhibit 8401 from the Prosecution. Do you

9 remember one of the persons that were taken out that day from the school?

10 A. Yes, I remember.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know the names of the

13 others.

14 MR. LONGONE:

15 Q. Could you please repeat the name, please?

16 A. Ismet Meho Cilic.

17 MR. LONGONE: For the record, it's in point 3 of the document, of

18 the exhibit. Thank you very much.

19 And if we can show Exhibit P 8625 to the witness.

20 Q. Under point 10, is that the person you just mentioned to us?

21 MR. LONGONE: Maybe the usher can assist. It's ERN 00740829. On

22 the English version it's page 2.

23 Q. Point 10.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that the person you mentioned?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you very much. You also mentioned in your statement that at

3 one point you were transfer to Gornji Vakuf?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please look at -- one second. ERN number - the same

6 document - 00740831. And in the English version, page 5. You have the

7 number 450. Have you found it? No.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. In your English version, page 5. The reference about the

10 people being deported to Gornji Vakuf from Jablanica. Is that correct?

11 From the village of Sovici.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. I want to show you some pictures of the

14 village.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, there is no

16 death certificate, because in your document, there should be a death

17 certificate.

18 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] There was an error with this death

19 certificate, so we did not produce it.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 MR. LONGONE: Exhibit 8952. Could it be displayed to the witness.

22 Q. Do you see the -- do you see the picture on your screen? No.

23 8952. Yes. All right. If we can go to page with the ERN 9130.

24 Do you recognise the village?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What village is that one?

2 A. Sovici. Sovici village.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you show your house if

4 it's on this picture? If you remember.

5 MR. LONGONE:

6 Q. Maybe you can mark it there with that pen.

7 A. That house should be here, but you can't see it, actually. The

8 house is not there.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Just mark the

10 picture with your name on the side in the margin, the white margin.

11 Registrar, a number, please.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit IC 000091.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 MR. LONGONE: I would like to show now the witness --

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. It might be useful to go on a bit

16 with this picture which has such a nice general view. Witness, could you

17 indicate the location where the mosque was?

18 MR. LONGONE: I was going there.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You have special pictures, I have seen it, but

20 it's nice to have it in a general view, I think, if you don't mind.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the basis of this picture,

22 could you indicate the location of the mosque maybe?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mark it somehow distinctly.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately, the mosque is here.

1 Here is the house of the hodja.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Put 1 above the

3 circle denoting your house.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a very good photo for

5 this purpose. Maybe if you have another one.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll work with this photo.

7 Mark the mosque with a 2. And hodja's house with a 3.

8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's it.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And is it possible to show approximately the

11 situation, the location of the school on this picture?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay.

14 MR. LONGONE: Can we show the witness ERN number on same exhibit

15 9136. And before we continue with this photo, could request the registrar

16 to give some CI number to -- it's an IC number, including the other two

17 copies, marks in the photo. You have provided one for the first mark.

18 Does this include the other two marks?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. The first photo

20 marked with 1, 2, 3 we have numbers. So that's enough. Now we are going

21 to have another IC number for the 36, which is still not on the screen.

22 Madam Usher, we have to work very, very fast. We're waiting for

23 the photo.

24 Technology is good, but the old system is even better. Nothing

25 can replace the ELMO. Mr. Karnavas seems to agree.

1 So we can't have it. There is a problem.

2 MR. LONGONE: Could you please? Thank you very much.

3 Q. Do you recognise those two buildings?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... them?

6 A. Yes. This is hodja's house and the mosque.

7 Q. And who was hodja?

8 A. Excuse me? Who was -- could you repeat the question?

9 Q. This is the house of someone living in front of the mosque.

10 A. Yes. It's the hodja who was the imam of the mosque.

11 Q. Thank you very much. And in your -- in your statement, you

12 mentioned that you were taken by HVO soldiers to dig graves.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please identify that place in the photo?

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Again, could you please mark the

16 mosque with your pen there with 1. Put 2 next to imam's house. And then

17 mark the place where you were digging graves with a 3.

18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

19 MR. LONGONE: Thank you very much.

20 Q. Could you please sign the picture.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have a number

23 for this photo.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit IC 000092.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it's IC 00092.

1 MR. LONGONE:

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... witness the photo under 9144

3 and 9145. Yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recognise those houses there, those buildings?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. The one with the large red roof.

8 A. It used to be the schoolhouse where we were detained, where I was

9 held.

10 Q. Could you please mark it with number 1.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. You mentioned that women and children were separated from men in

13 front of the school and that men were taken somewhere else, and the

14 children and the women and the elderly to the school.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please mark the place where they were divided.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Thank you very much. For the record number --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your name -- put your name

20 there, please, again on the white margin.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the number 2 should be mentioned so it

22 goes on the transcript, otherwise, it won't be possible to tie them

23 together later.

24 MR. LONGONE: Yes. I was about to do that. Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

1 MR. LONGONE:

2 Q. For the record, number 2 is the place where the people were

3 separated.

4 A. Yes. We were all there together. And this house marked by 2,

5 that's where men were taken away from the basement, and we were on the

6 parking lot. And from there, we were taken to the schoolhouse.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could we have a

8 number, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 000093.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petkovic.

11 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I with like to

12 ask the witness to mark the mosque on this photograph as well if it is

13 visible, and the school. It would be nice to have a photograph of that

14 kind which shows the view of the whole village.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. The school and the

16 mosque, do you see the mosque on this photo?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. You cannot see the mosque.

18 This is the central part of the village. The mosque is in the lower part.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. And the school is

20 marked by 1, isn't it?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. So we can't see the

23 mosque on this photograph. So the number is 000093.

24 MR. LONGONE:

25 Q. How far is the mosque from the school?

1 A. About a kilometre.

2 Q. And how could you see the mosque from -- from the school?

3 A. Yes. If you look -- if you look at the schoolhouse and if you

4 open the windows, then you see everything from the top of the village

5 where the mosque is located.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the basis of the photograph

7 with this school on it, could you show in which direction the mosque is by

8 drawing an arrow which starts from a school window. Just draw an arrow

9 towards the mosque.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. And put there number 4.

12 And on the margin, you have to write "Mosque," and thus everybody will

13 understand that's where the mosque is, in that direction.

14 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does that accommodate the

16 concerns of Mr. Petkovic?

17 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... of the -- of the school?

20 A. Well, roughly, it was two metres above the mosque.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Was -- could we show to the witness number

22 9150 of the same exhibit. Page 17 in e-court.

23 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm sorry. If I could ask for a

24 clarification. It may just be that I'm slow this afternoon, but I'm not

25 sure I understand the significance of the answer that the school was

1 apparently two metres above the mosque. Is this referring to its

2 elevation? Could we perhaps have a clarification?

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked you if the

4 mosque was at the same level as the school and you said no, it was two

5 metres above. Which is two metres above, the top of the mosque or the --

6 the foundation, the base of the mosque?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I was trying to say is that --

8 that the mosque is maybe one or two metres higher than the school. The

9 foundation, the base.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the base of the mosque is

11 about two metres higher than the school.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I thought I

14 understood.

15 MR. LONGONE:

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... school was in the centre of

17 the village, isn't it? That's what you said to us.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... mosque?

20 A. The mosque is also kind of in the centre of the village. It's

21 just that the village is conditionally divided into the lower part and the

22 upper part, and the dividing line was somewhere between the school and the

23 mosque.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a technical question.

25 When we are standing in front of the school, do we see the mosque? Is it

1 visible or not?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can see it from there?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 MR. LONGONE: Can we show then to the witness number 9150. Thank

6 you very much.

7 Q. Could you recognise then the building?

8 A. [In English] Yes.

9 Q. What is it?

10 A. [Interpretation] That's the school where we were put up.

11 Q. And you mentioned that you could see the house being set on fire

12 and -- and the mosque from that school building?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please mark with number 1 the place where you were in

15 that school?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. So from that position you could see?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please put your name in the

21 bottom corner. And a number, please, Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit IC 000094.

23 MR. LONGONE: And if -- if we can show to the witness ERN number

24 9157 of the same exhibit. 21 in the e-court system. All right.

25 Q. Do you see the picture?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What is it?

3 A. It's the window of the room we were in.

4 Q. And when you mentioned that you could see the -- the mosque and

5 the houses being burned, is that the -- the window you're referring to?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So put a cross where the mosque

8 was looking at it through the window, if you could see the mosque through

9 the window. This view from the window, can you see the mosque or what was

10 left of the mosque or the place where the mosque was? Can you see that

11 looking out of the window?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you can't see the mosque, but if

13 you open the window, then you can see the reflection from the mosque.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you open the window you can

15 see the reflection of the mosque, but from that vantage point you can't

16 actually see the mosque; is that right?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Looking through the window this way

18 you can't see it. I would have to put my head through the window to see

19 it.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. Now, when you were 13

21 years old, on the first floor of the school building, with your own eyes,

22 did you see the mosque out of the window?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you put your head out of the

25 window, did you?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't see it with my own

2 eyes. I told you I saw the reflection on the glass from window.

3 MR. LONGONE: Your Honours. [Interpretation] The next photograph,

4 Your Honour, shows the open window as the witness has just told us.

5 Q. Show to the witness the following page.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is that photograph 57? Do you

7 want it tendered?

8 MR. LONGONE: I would request the registrar, please, to assign the

9 number to it.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit IC 000095.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, put your name -- place

12 your name there, please.

13 Next picture.

14 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] The number is 9158.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... first one. Yes. Do you

16 recognise that picture?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. When you are referring that the window was open, is more or less

19 this the situation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember which part were you standing at the time you saw

22 the houses being burned down?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you please mark it with number 1?

25 A. [Marks]

1 Q. Yes. And number 1 is the place where the witness was standing

2 when he was -- so when the houses were burning.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Place your name and -- on the

4 margin. Write your name in on the margin.

5 And, Mr. Registrar, may we have a number?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit IC 000096.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, could you indicate in which direction

8 the mosque would be as seen from this point inside the school? Maybe by

9 drawing a -- yes.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And place a 2 by the arrow.

13 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the arrow

15 drawn by the witness indicates the direction of the mosque as seen from

16 the inside of the building, school building.

17 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 I ask the usher to turn to page 9164.

19 Q. In your statement you referred to the -- the fact that some people

20 were divided and sent to Juzunovici.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who else from your -- do you remember who was sent there?

23 A. My sister, my mother was among them.

24 Q. And at one point you mention your statement that you were not

25 allowed to join them, isn't it?

1 A. No, I couldn't go. I tried to get out up onto the truck but they

2 took me down and sent me back.

3 Q. And did you ever during that time went to Juzunovici?

4 A. Yes. I passed by once, jumped off the truck, but they sent me

5 back two days later.

6 Q. Do you remember the place where your family with the other people

7 were interned, were arrested?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you please mark it with number 1?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. So for the record, number 1 is the place where the family of the

12 witness and the civilians and children were interned.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your name by the side.

14 Number, please, Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit IC 000097.

16 MR. LONGONE: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have 20 more

18 minutes to the break. Who is going to start off? The Defence has one

19 hour. The Prosecution took one hour, so the Defence has one hour. Who is

20 going to start off?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I just have a couple of questions, if I could just

22 ask them real quickly, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I guess my only question is, when you came

25 here and you met with the Prosecution, did they go over these documents

1 with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did they go over the photographs with you as well?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In going over the documents, did they show to you the exact

6 paragraphs they wanted you to look at and refer to in your testimony here

7 today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in looking at the photographs, did they also -- in going over

10 them, did they point out or ask you to point out to them where the house

11 was, the mosque was? Did they do that as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions. The purpose of the

15 exercise, Your Honour, was at some point I will be making a request as to

16 how to make the proceedings slightly more efficient.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

18 Counsel Nozica.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have just

20 a few questions.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise.

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

24 Q. [Interpretation] You said in your statement that the village was

25 attacked on the 17th of April, 1993; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, can you remember roughly -- and you just drew your own

3 position in the school from which you saw the explosion of the mosque and

4 the fire -- the houses set on fire. Can you tell us where that was in

5 relation to the 17th of April, when that was?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps there's a mistake,

7 Counsel Nozica. You said, "You saw the explosion." I understood it that

8 he didn't actually see the explosion. He heard the explosion, not saw it.

9 Witness, did you see the explosion or did you just hear the

10 explosion? It's not the same thing. Which was it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We heard the explosion. I couldn't

12 see it.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you for that

14 intervention.

15 Q. Anyway, the explosion, when you heard it, when did you hear it and

16 when did you see fire in Prozor in relation to the 17th April?

17 A. I think it was the 18th of April.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's not Prozor, Counsel, it's

19 his village.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I meant "prozor" meaning "window",

21 through the window. Yes, it's the same word, "prozor", "window." So

22 that's the misunderstanding in the transcript.

23 Q. So you said the 18th.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know when the men who, as you say were separated from the

1 women, when they left? When did they leave the area? Can you remember

2 that? Do you have that information?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You don't know? Can you remember what day you yourself, as you

5 said in your statement, set out with the rest towards Jablanica?

6 A. We set out on the same day, the 17th, but we were returned from

7 the village of Solde.

8 Q. Can you tell us how you set off, who you set off with, and who

9 sent you back?

10 A. We set out with Mr. Dzemo Ovnovic in his van. Juka had agreed

11 with Dzemo that we should go to Jablanica, the elderly and the women and

12 children. We reached Solde, and the HVO soldier sent us back.

13 Q. Although you talk about this in your statement, could you just

14 tell us who Juka was?

15 A. I don't know who he was and what he was.

16 Q. Was Dzemo Vojinovic [as interpreted] a soldier?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And Juka, was he a soldier?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In your statement, on page 3, I think it's the English and

21 Croatian version, you said the Croatian commander in Sovici called Juka,

22 told Dzemo Ovnovic to take us to Jablanica. Is that what you said?

23 A. Perhaps I did, but I don't remember.

24 Q. Take a look at your statement. I don't know if you have it in

25 front of you. In Croatian, on page 3. And for Their Honours' benefit, it

1 is the second paragraph of page 3. It is the third paragraph in the

2 B/C/S, in Croatian, and in English the second.

3 Can you see that part?

4 A. No.

5 Q. It is the first paragraph on page 3 of the Croatian version of

6 your statement. The first paragraph begins with: "Then they separated us

7 and said that the old women and small children ..." Do see that?

8 We're wasting a lot of time. I think you have page 3 in front of

9 you. Can you see what I'm referring to?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It begins: "Then they separated us again." And it says, "The

12 Croatian commander in Sovici, nicknamed Juka, told Dzemo Ovnovic ..." Is

13 that what it says?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So which is it? Was he a Croatian commander? Did you know about

16 that at the time?

17 A. He was some sort of Croatian commander. Now, what he was exactly,

18 I do not know.

19 Q. I realise that you were only 13 years old at the time and you

20 didn't have to remember things like that, but since your statement has

21 been admitted as an exhibit into evidence, it would be a good idea to

22 clear this up, whether you knew this or whether this was introduced

23 without your knowledge and was not corrected.

24 So the Croatian commander told Dzemo Ovnovic to take you to

25 Jablanica and go with him; is that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then what happened? You came to Solde.

3 A. Yes, and the HVO soldier stopped us in Solde and told Dzemo he

4 couldn't pass through. He said he had a signature from Juka. And we were

5 on our way to Jablanica, that he was supposed to transport the elderly

6 women and children there. They started swearing and shouting. They said

7 they had nothing to do with Juka and that we had to go back right away and

8 that's what happened. We went back.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Ms. Nozica.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, please. At this same passage, in the

11 English version it says, "We were stopped by Croat soldiers." I take it

12 after hearing you now say that it was HVO soldier, that you did not want

13 to make a point in your statement in saying that there were soldiers from

14 the Croat army rather than from the Bosnia-Herzegovina HVO.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I meant to say the HVO. I

16 didn't mean soldiers --

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.

19 Another question from the Bench.

20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Counsel Nozica. I

21 have a question to ask, a point of clarification about commander Juka.

22 Witness, you said that to begin with there were 30 soldiers with

23 camouflage uniforms and bearing arms and that they weren't local soldiers.

24 All right. That's that. Now, we come to this other Juka person. The

25 soldier Juka, was he wearing the same uniform? Did he have any insignia?

1 Was he a local soldier or not a local soldier?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was an inhabitant, yes, a local,

3 but he never wore any uniform. I never saw him in uniform at all.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So there were two

5 groups of soldiers. There were those who were wearing uniforms, about 30

6 of them you say, and then there was Juka who was a local, who was a

7 soldier according to you, and who was a local commander; is that right?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but on that particular day, I

9 didn't see him. I was told that by Dzemo while we were on our way in the

10 van. Dzemo said that he had his signature and permit for us to go to

11 Jablanica.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. Thank you. Right. That

13 shows that the investigators from the OTP weren't precise enough in taking

14 the witness statement, because it doesn't quite correspond to the sentence

15 as it reads in the statement. Thank you.

16 Counsel Nozica, all that to show what? What do you wish to show?

17 It's all very interesting, but what is the object of it?

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, I'll explain,

19 although I don't want to do this in front of the witness, but never mind,

20 I will. The witness himself says that the Croatian commander ...

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness was 13 years old at

22 the time, so he didn't know much.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Right. Precisely for that reason.

24 However, the witness did say some things explicitly and it is my duty as

25 Defence counsel to verify if he indeed remembers and whether things

1 happened exactly as he said.

2 He said that the Croatian commander in Sovici called Juka told

3 Dzemo Ovnovic, and I believe this Trial Chamber knows who this is all

4 about, that he should take some 15 people towards Jablanica. It

5 transpires from the statement that they indeed set out for Jablanica.

6 They were intercepted by soldiers. He says today those were HVO soldiers.

7 And he told them that those were Juka's orders, but still they shouted at

8 them and wouldn't let them through.

9 My point is that everybody was issuing orders. Everybody was

10 deciding depending on where one was. That is why I insisted so much on

11 these details.

12 May I move on?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I please say a word to the issue

14 that you just mentioned?

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Yes. Go ahead, although I didn't ask my question now.

17 A. Those HVO soldiers who came, the locals couldn't even bring bread,

18 let alone have any other right. HVO soldiers wouldn't let them budge out

19 of their houses, just as we weren't allowed to budge out of the convoy.

20 Q. I don't see how it bears on my question, but let us move on.

21 Could you please tell me, since we have dwelt for a while through

22 documents as well on torched houses, at least you say they were torched,

23 we read in your statement you saw Muslim houses set on fire. Can we know

24 how long you observed this on this 18th through the window, how long it

25 lasted, and what could you see? Could you just see the direction towards

1 the mosque, or could you also observe other parts of the village from your

2 vantage point inside the schoolhouse?

3 A. It lasted all night, and I could see all those different parts

4 through the -- in the window as a mirror.

5 Q. My question was: Could you just see one direction or more?

6 A. I could see what I could see -- the houses burning, the houses

7 that I could see through the window, not all the houses.

8 Q. You mean the houses that were in the general direction of the

9 mosque?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Well, my questions, as I would point out, concerning the 18th of

12 April, were motivated by the fact that we have already heard some

13 witnesses that testified a bit differently about this time and these

14 events and the time when the mosque was destroyed.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have just a few questions.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to follow up on what was just said.

18 Witness -- Mr. Kovac, since you are not a protected witness, you

19 just told my colleague on your own initiative, not related to her

20 question, that HVO soldiers did not allow local people, not even to bring

21 bread let alone leave their homes, and they didn't allow anybody to leave

22 their home. My question is as follows: Does that mean that when the HVO

23 troops entered the village, Croat residents were also in their homes and

24 were not allowed to leave?

25 A. I'm not sure whether they were in their homes or somewhere else,

1 but I know, because I was informed as much, that none of the neighbours

2 dared come near us. Nobody dared come near us except HVO soldiers.

3 Q. All right. But did you know where the Croatian residents were at

4 that moment?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you don't know whether they were at home, whether they maybe

7 fled the village or did something else?

8 A. No. I didn't see them that day.

9 Q. Did you hear anything about the whereabouts of the Croat

10 population?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Kovacic.

13 Witness, did you -- to whom did you refer? Who are you referring

14 to when you say that people were not allowed to bring you food? Is it

15 your idea that the Croats would have liked to come and bring you food, or

16 were there, despite everything else we have heard, any Muslims left in the

17 village, or any third type of persons? I hope I made myself clear.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard later, a couple of

19 days later, Croats tried to bring food, but that was hard. Local Croats

20 tried to bring us food because we had neither bread nor water, but it was

21 with great difficulty that they were allowed to bring anything if at all.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 In your statement that you confirmed at the beginning, you said

25 you signed it and made it to the best of your knowledge and voluntarily.

1 On page 2, passage 3, you said the following about the time before you

2 were taken to the schoolhouse: You were in your home. You heard a bomb

3 explode in the house next door. There were two or three families inside

4 the house. You said there were about 20 people there. And then we find

5 the sentence that I'm interested in. You said: "There were no soldiers

6 among us or defenders of the village, and we did not have any weapons."

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's in the middle of

8 the third paragraph on page 1.

9 Q. What did you mean by saying that there were no defenders of the

10 village? It was your house, wasn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And where were the defenders of the village while you were taking

13 cover indoors?

14 A. What do you mean "defenders of the village"?

15 Q. Let me rephrase. Did anybody defend the village from the HVO,

16 from the HVO raid?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who?

19 A. People who were more mature, of age, who wanted to defend their

20 families.

21 Q. Where were they, on the outskirts of the village?

22 A. Around the village. All those men left their homes at 8.00 a.m.

23 in the morning when the shells started to fall, and they could not get to

24 the top of the village.

25 Q. So is it fair to say they were at the edge of the village?

1 A. No, you can't, because it was -- the edge is about 10, 15

2 kilometres of the village.

3 Q. So it's inside the village.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did they have anything prepared in advance like trenches,

6 shelters, some sort of --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did those men have weapons?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How can we defend the village --

10 how can anybody defend the village without weapons?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see a single rifle. I

12 didn't see anything. You can defend a village with an axe, with a shovel.

13 At least that's what I think.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. And did you hear anything? You must have been curious as a boy.

16 Did you hear that anybody had a weapon?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Let me rephrase this. Can you really claim under oath that nobody

19 in the village had a weapon before that day when the conflict broke out?

20 A. I can't.

21 Q. Is it fair to say that you don't know?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have only one small

25 topic to cover within the framework of the document. It will be two or

1 three questions. Maybe we can take the break now and I can finish after

2 the break, or whatever you see fit.

3 Q. Mr. Kovac, you told us today you gave your first statement to OTP

4 investigators on the 12th of March, 1999.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then on the 12th of January, 2001, you were invited to a meeting

7 in Missouri, USA; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And there you gave an affidavit.

10 A. I don't understand the word "affidavit."

11 Q. Well, that's a statement under oath.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in that statement you confirmed the previous statement that

14 you gave in its English and Croatian versions. You confirmed it was

15 indeed your signature, et cetera, et cetera.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in this affidavit you gave in America, in paragraph 5, you

18 said the following: "I understand that my statement attached to this

19 affidavit may be admitted into evidence in proceedings before the

20 International Criminal Tribunal, and I understand that false testimony

21 under oath or a false statement constitutes a criminal act punishable by

22 imprisonment or a fine. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then in point 6, you confirmed the authenticity and the

25 accuracy of the statement you had given previously. And in the last

1 sentence you said expressly: "I have nothing to add to my statement, nor

2 is there anything in this that I would like to change now." Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you signed that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then you arrived in The Hague a couple of days ago and you had a

7 meeting with the Prosecution yesterday.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And, again, yesterday you went through the statement you gave in

10 1999.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. However, yesterday you explained, with regard to that statement,

13 to the Prosecutor that you have minor corrections and modifications.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you specified which?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, we have been duly

18 informed by the Prosecutor, in keeping with your prior instructions, in a

19 letter from the Prosecutor on 16 pages [as interpreted] of these

20 modifications and corrections.

21 Q. Witness, if in 2001, under oath, you stated that you had nothing

22 to add to that statement in -- given in 1999, that it is absolutely

23 correct and given to the best of your knowledge, nevertheless five years

24 later when you came to The Hague you say, "I do have some corrections to

25 make after all." What is the truth?

1 A. Everything is the truth.

2 Q. I believe that you may have committed perjury, because in 2001 you

3 said very loud and clear, "This is my statement. I have nothing more to

4 add."

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel, you are going too far.

6 You are accusing this witness of perjury. What allows you to claim that?

7 I remind you that he was 13 at the time. In 2001, he was 16. You are

8 talking about an affidavit in Missouri. Where is that affidavit? I don't

9 have it. Under what number?

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I suppose that the Prosecution duly

11 provided it to the Chamber as one of his statements. That's one thing.

12 Second, in January 2001, this witness was of age, and I absolutely

13 agree with you that when he gave his first statement to the Prosecutor --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you understood you were

15 accused of false testimony. Now, explain to us, please, how come that in

16 2001 you specified certain points, you made certain statements? Did you

17 lie, or did you just believe that some things that you have said before

18 need to be further specified?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have an explanation?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then give it.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that year, I think it was 2000,

24 but I'm not sure, when I gave that statement in Missouri, I only read my

25 statement and I said that it was correct, but at that time, I didn't know

1 it would come to this and whether something would need to be added or not.

2 Those -- those things that were added are just the same thing that was

3 written before. It only brings more precision, more explanation. It's

4 the same thing, just supplemented and expanded.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But these corrections and -- and

6 things that were made more specific, is it your decision or is it the

7 Prosecution who told you that they needed to be made?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was I who decided to add

9 that.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I -- I have two points. First, on page 43,

11 first line, it --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. He didn't answer

13 the question.

14 My question was very precise. You didn't answer, and my colleague

15 wanted to intervene without realising that you had not answered yet.

16 I asked you, when you made these modifications, did they come to

17 you spontaneously, or was it the Office of the Prosecutor that suggested

18 them? It's very simple. Please answer. Maybe you did answer, but it's

19 not on the record.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered spontaneously. It was of

21 my own will, of my own accord. I added it just in the same way that I

22 replaced one word meaning "relative" with another more specific word

23 meaning the same relation.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now my colleague has a question.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. First a correction to the transcript. The

1 translation said and it is written accordingly that Mr. Kovacic spoke of

2 corrections of 16 pages, but I think you said 16 points, and it's not

3 quite the same. So that should be corrected in the transcript.

4 But, Witness, I would like to make an example. One of the new

5 elements that you have said now is that not only the mosque but also the

6 house of the imam was burned down. Now, when you made that affidavit in

7 Missouri, were you aware of the fact that you had said in your statement

8 that the mosque was destroyed, it was blown up, actually, and burned

9 afterwards. And you knew exactly that also the house of the imam was

10 burnt down, but you decided, "I will not say this although I'm aware of

11 it". Was that what happened, or did you simply not think of it and only

12 thought of it after you came here?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew the hodja's house had been

14 burnt at the same time that the mosque was blown up, but perhaps I forgot

15 or it didn't come to mind to mention it. So that is why I made these

16 additions.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The affidavit, I know that

18 procedure. You were in Missouri. How come -- how did it happen, the

19 notary of the State of Missouri, Millford, called you -- did he call and

20 say come over I have some things to ask you, or how did that whole thing

21 come about? Do you remember? It was the 12th of January, 2001. How did

22 it happen? Did they telephone you and tell you to come to the office of

23 the person who was taking your statement?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They called me up on the

25 telephone and asked me whether I agreed to give a statement for the

1 public, and I said yes, and they said, "Can we come to America to meet and

2 then you can confirm your statement?" And I said yes. And that's how we

3 met, at one of the airports in Missouri.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who did you meet at the

5 Missouri airport?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the name, but I do

7 know that it was a lady who was speaking to me in Bosnian, and she spoke

8 English as well. And the man, well, I don't remember what his name was.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the man, it was an

10 investigator from the OTP?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We're going to

13 take --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, Your Honour.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I have two or three more

16 questions, but we can take a break if you prefer, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to take a break and

18 reconvene at 4.15.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.59 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

22 But before I give the floor to Mr. Kovacic, I'd like, on behalf of

23 the Chamber, to let you know, Mr. Kovacic, that of our indignation at

24 raising what you did with the witness, especially as the Victims and

25 Witness Unit told us about the traumatism caused to the witness. So if

1 you have tangible proof, then produce that proof, and don't proceed with

2 an assertion, because it's a very serious matter to state what you did.

3 The Judges will not be intimidated. So bear that in mind. And we don't

4 wish to upset the witness. And I think that your conduct was not

5 intentional. I don't think you intentionally meant to say that the

6 witness was committing perjury, but at any rate, I think that every

7 attorney should think about things like that before they utter them.

8 So I'd like to mention that the witness, once again said, that the

9 witness was 13 years old at the time and that he was a victim of the

10 situation, and at that age, he was taken to a school where he was

11 detained, incarcerated for a certain amount of time, and what he has told

12 us does not merit aspersion of that kind. So we were very upset and I

13 wanted to inform you about that.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I always have a great

15 deal of respect towards witnesses who are victims. I have a lot of

16 experience at this Tribunal, and I have never brought the witness who was

17 also a victim into a difficult position, nor did I ever ask questions that

18 were not relevant. I'd like to draw the Trial Chamber's attention to the

19 fact that I expressly used the word when I started that area that the

20 witness might have committed perjury. So it wasn't my assertion. I said

21 that it might be considered perjury, and then I entered into that

22 discussion.

23 Thirdly, you will have seen that I have addressed the facts. I

24 speak about the facts and have not strayed from the facts by a single

25 centimetre. The fact that the witness gave one statement on the 12th of

1 March, 1999. And on the 12th of January, 2001 he gave another statement,

2 in which he spoke very precisely and he was cautioned that he must read

3 through the statement carefully. I did not go beyond that framework.

4 And the final fact is that the Prosecution informed us yesterday

5 about amendments and certain changes to his statement. So I did not stray

6 a single centimetre from that framework.

7 And one more detail for the record, the fact is that it is true

8 that the witness was 13 years old at the time, but in 1999, when

9 interviewed by the OTP, he was no longer a minor. He was an adult and was

10 20 years old. When he read through his statement and confirmed it in

11 America, he was 22 years old. And today, he is 27 years old. So I do not

12 see that I should treat this witness as I would a child.

13 Of course I will be happy to treat him as a witness who is a

14 victim as well. But I do accept your criticism, and I shall of course

15 exercise caution in the future when faced with similar witnesses.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Kovacic, I regret that, from a lawyer to a

17 lawyer, I have to answer what you have just said. You have completely

18 passed under silence one of the most essential elements in any form of

19 perjury, which is mens rea. Only someone who lies, that is who

20 consciously conceals the truth can be suspected of perjury. And in the

21 present case, I see not the slightest indication of any motivation in that

22 direction, and you have not indicated why on earth this witness could have

23 had any motive to consciously lie on these very trivial details in which

24 he has rendered his statement more precise here than it was the last way.

25 And I would kindly invite you to keep this aspect in mind when you are

1 embarking on pronouncing suspicions of possible perjury, because that is

2 already uttering a suspicion.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That brings an end

5 to the incident.

6 Mr. Kovacic, you have time for the rest of your questions.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I had a few questions with respect

8 to that affidavit, but if the Court considers that it is not the proper

9 question to ask the witness, I'll leave it. But I'd like to repeat

10 that -- and I'd like to draw your attention to the affidavit and point 6

11 of the affidavit. I'm not going to ask the witness any more about that.

12 The last sentence of point 6 of the affidavit is quite clear. I

13 have nothing more to add. And the fact is that on the 15th of November,

14 the Prosecution, nonetheless, tells that the -- tells us that the witness

15 did add something, but I'm not going to ask the witness anything more

16 about that. We've finished with that.

17 I'd just like to ask him something about the village, his village,

18 and to see whether my knowledge of the village is something that he can

19 confirm.

20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Kovac, the mosque that you heard was destroyed and

21 later on saw that it was destroyed didn't have a minaret, did it?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. You don't remember. Thank you.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

25 you, Your Honours.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kovacic.

2 Counsel Alaburic.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

5 Q. Mr. Kovac, good afternoon. My name is Vesna Alaburic. I am an

6 attorney from Zagreb and I am Defence counsel in this case for General

7 Milivoj Petkovic. I'm going to ask you a few questions linked to the

8 documents provided to you by the Prosecution today and a brief explanation

9 with respect to your statement.

10 In these proceedings, witnesses that we have heard so far, who

11 were professional soldiers, said that in Sovici a unit of the BH army was

12 located. Do you have any knowledge about this unit of the BH army being

13 in Sovici?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Very well. Now, may we take a look at a document shown you by the

16 Prosecutor. It was the first document, P 01915. You read the signature.

17 It was Colonel Zeljko Siljeg. Now, what I'm interested now is point 8 and

18 its contents of this interim report, which speaks about the selective

19 targeting of military targets into Sovici.

20 So I'd like to ask you now whether you know that in your village,

21 the village of Sovici, whether there were any features and facilities that

22 could have been considered military targets.

23 A. No, unless you think that houses and mosques were military

24 targets, civilian buildings of that nature.

25 Q. Well, military targets, I'm sure you know, imply other things, and

1 it is incontestable that there was a BH army unit in Sovici. But we can

2 move on to the next document, which is P 02009, and it is a document that

3 you've already looked at, and the sentence where it says that Muslim

4 houses were being set on fire on a massive scale.

5 Now, in your statement and today in response to questions from my

6 colleague Ms. Nozica, you said that you saw Muslim houses burning on the

7 18th of April. Is that right? Did I understand you correctly?

8 A. No. I said that the mosque was blown up on the 18th.

9 Q. And what about the houses? When were they set on fire?

10 A. On the 17th and on the 18th and on the 19th, they were ablaze

11 all -- throughout all those days. They were left like that.

12 Q. Can you tell us how long the houses went on burning for?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can you tell us, since you confirmed or, rather, read out part of

15 the document where it said that on the 21st of April in Sovici houses --

16 Muslim houses were set on fire, almost all the Muslim houses were set on

17 fire in Sovici. Can you tell us whether that was on the 21st of April,

18 that that was the day when these Muslim houses were set on fire on a

19 massive scale?

20 A. Yes. The houses were on fire on the 20th and the 21st.

21 Q. Mr. Kovac, I understand that you think you remember houses burning

22 every day, but it is very important for us during his trial to establish

23 whether the houses were mostly set on fire on the 18th or on the 21st.

24 A. I think it was on the 21st.

25 Q. Thank you. Would you now take a look at that same document, the

1 third line in which it says that, "In Sovici, 10 of our fighters were

2 killed, and we have no information as to the number of wounded."

3 Do you, yourself, have any knowledge of who these fighters are?

4 Who were these fighters that the 44th Mountain Brigade from Jablanica

5 speaks about, refers to?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. We can move on to your statement now. The final part

8 of your statement, and it is the last paragraph on page 4 --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that the four

10 people inside who were killed outside and the fifth one who happened to

11 look out of the window, these five people, were they civilians or were

12 they fighters, combatants, soldiers?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of them were civilians.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Kovac, I'm interested in your departure from Sovici now.

17 Trucks, buses, and so on. I'd like us to clarify certain points, and I'm

18 sure you'll be able to assist us to establish what actually happened.

19 At the end of your statement, you say that, "I was put into a bus,

20 and they drove off towards Gornji Vakuf. I fell asleep for a while. They

21 stopped the bus at a place called Sicaja where we were transferred onto

22 other buses and driven to Gornji Vakuf."

23 Now, could you explain to us, please, this transfer into other

24 buses in Sicaja, whose were these other buses? Who did they belong to?

25 A. Ordinary buses from Gornji Vakuf arrived and there was some sort

1 of exchange going on. I don't know.

2 Q. Tell me, the drivers of these other buses, if you happen to know,

3 were they Muslims?

4 A. I don't know who drove the buses.

5 Q. Tell me, please, were any of the soldiers with you in these other

6 buses?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Very well. Let us take a look at the other documents and may we

9 have on e-court -- or, rather, perhaps, we could take a look at

10 document -- a Defence document, 4D 00458 next please. It is a very short

11 document, and as far as I know, it is on e-court.

12 Mr. Kovac, you have the document in front of you, do you not? And

13 we can take a look at it together. It is a document from the Chief of

14 Staff of the 4th Corps command, Mr. Budakovic. It's a report which reads

15 as follows: "According to a report received at 18.00 hours from the duty

16 officer of the centre of communications in Gornji Vakuf, today, at 9.00

17 hours in the area of Sicaja (Makljen), the civilian population from Sovici

18 village was brought in. At a rough estimate, 500 to 700 civilians arrived

19 in the mentioned area. The agreement between Halilovic and Petkovic has

20 been disrupted by that."

21 Tell us, please, to begin with, Mr. Kovac, do you know who

22 Halilovic and Petkovic are?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever hear of those names, Halilovic and Petkovic, at the

25 time? Did you hear about any agreement being in existence between the two

1 men?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Let us now look at a Prosecution document shown you today.

4 P 08625 is the number. In the English, what I'm interested in is on page

5 5. And you, Mr. Kovac, take a look at the page that has a number in the

6 corner which is 00740831. The upper corner. Mr. Kovac, I'll show you.

7 It's here. The number I'm referring to is up here, the last digits being

8 831.

9 Underneath this list of names, it reads as follows: "At the same

10 time, from the area of Sovici village and part of the village of Doljani,

11 all the Muslim inhabitants were expelled, women, children, and the

12 elderly, and they were deported to Gornji Vakuf. Although, of all the

13 international institutions of the -- that is to say, the International Red

14 Cross, UNHCR, UNPROFOR, SpaBat located in Jablanica, they insisted that

15 they be transferred to Jablanica. Taking part in the agreement were

16 representatives of the BH army headed by the chief of the Main Staff Sefer

17 Halilovic and HVO Major Milivoj Petkovic. And in addition to this, the

18 agreement was reached -- the agreement reached in SpaBat was not

19 respected."

20 Now, you said a moment ago that you knew nothing about an

21 agreement. Did you happen to hear anything about the fact that, pursuant

22 to agreement, you were supposed to have been taken to Jablanica rather

23 than Gornji Vakuf? Did you ever hear anything about that?

24 A. Yes. Two or three days before leaving for Gornji Vakuf, or a week

25 before, in the UNHCR, some people came to visit us and take our names, and

1 they said that we were supposed to go to Jablanica, and that nobody was to

2 make any statements, and if they do make any statements and say anything,

3 they would not return to Jablanica. They wouldn't go anywhere and would

4 be killed.

5 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Kovac, after a certain amount of time, a

6 relatively brief period of time, were you nonetheless -- did you go to

7 Jablanica from Gornji Vakuf?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In about two weeks' time; is that right?

10 A. Well, I don't remember the exact time, how long I was there for

11 before I left.

12 Q. Well, can you help us, whether it was after a long period of time,

13 a short period? That would be very useful if you could give us an

14 approximation and whether it was pursuant to the agreement mentioned in

15 these documents.

16 A. I don't know. I think it was up to a month. I don't know how

17 long we spent up there.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] May I just confer with my colleague

20 Ms. Nozica for a moment.

21 [Defence counsel confer]

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. I have no

23 further questions of this witness.

24 Mr. Kovac, thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Next counsel.

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I have only have a very few

4 short questions regarding the documents shown to you by the Prosecutor.

5 I suppose since you're -- I know your age at the time -- that you

6 don't know, but still I'll ask. On the 16th of April, 1993, do you know

7 which units of the HVO were deployed in the area that is called Operative

8 Zone North-west Herzegovina?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know which facilities HVO had in Pisvir on the same day?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know who Zeljko Siljeg was?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you know when your father was transferred from

15 Ljubuski to Heliodrom?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know how many people were transferred to Heliodrom together

18 with him on the same day?

19 A. No. I believe on the 16th of April we were all at home.

20 Q. No, not the 16th. I'm asking you on the day when your father was

21 transferred to Heliodrom.

22 A. No.

23 Q. I see we didn't quite understand each other. How many people were

24 taken to Heliodrom with him at the same time?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Thank you. Just one more thing. You said, if I understood you

2 correctly when you were answering my colleague, Ms. Nozica, regarding the

3 night when the mosque was on fire, you said you watched it all night. Did

4 I understand that well? It was night? That's how we have it on the

5 record.

6 A. It was the evening, but the mosque didn't burn. It exploded in

7 one moment, and it went on burning for maybe half an hour.

8 Q. Was it night-time or day-time? Was it daylight?

9 A. Day.

10 Q. I suppose in Sovici at that time there was no lighting,

11 streetlights.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Am I right if I think that you actually saw the reflection of the

14 flames in the glass?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. From what I understood in your statement, you were not allowed to

17 look through the window.

18 A. We were not.

19 Q. You mentioned when you came to Sicaja, you mentioned the

20 word "exchange."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kind of exchange?

23 A. They told us it was some sort of exchange and we are going to

24 Gornji Vakuf. I don't know what kind of exchange and how it happened.

25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

1 have no further questions.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Counsel Ibrisimovic,

3 you can ask your questions now.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

5 like the witness to be shown again this document 07985. I think it's on

6 the list of documents that he had just reviewed.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] 07 -- did you find it? 07985.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] While the usher helps the

11 witness, it is not my intention to discuss the document that was drafted

12 when the witness was 13. It's a legal document, and it can be complicated

13 even to us lawyers sometimes, but I want to draw his attention to

14 something else.

15 Q. Did you find the document?

16 A. No.

17 Q. This is a document of the military prosecution office in Mostar

18 referring to the agreement about this exchange. Please look at the last

19 page of the original. It's page 4. Have you found it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the original, it says that the document was reviewed. We have

22 a signature, Mladen Jurisic, and we have the stamp of the military

23 prosecution office Mostar. But if we look at the English version, we see

24 that it was only delivered to, not reviewed by the military prosecutor.

25 And another thing I want to say about the English version is that

1 the original bears the stamp of the military prosecution office in Mostar

2 on every page and the investigate of Mladen Jurisic, the military

3 prosecutor. However, it is not indicated in the English version. We

4 don't see that there is a signature and stamp of the military prosecutor's

5 office on every page.

6 I emphasised that I will not discuss this with the witness because

7 if he was 13 years old at the time, he cannot have any knowledge about a

8 document as delicate as this.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have taken note of what you

10 said.

11 Yes, Ms. Alaburic.

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but I

13 would like to ask for your permission to ask another question of the

14 witness regarding the document -- one of the documents we have already

15 discussed today.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

17 Further cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kovac, please be so kind to look at document

19 P 08625 again. Look at page 2, it must be, but the ERN number on the top

20 of the page must end with digits 829.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, would you please go

22 and help.

23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So the number of the document is P 08625, and the page bears the

25 ERN number 00740829. It's on the end of page 2, and it follows on page 3.

1 I'm interested in this list of people, Mr. Kovac. It would be

2 very valuable if you could assist us in establishing whether any of these

3 people had been in Sovici, whether they were local residents or maybe

4 fighting men.

5 Dzemal Ovnovic, does that name mean anything to you?

6 A. Yes. He's a relative of mine.

7 Q. Hilmo Lulic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mustafa Arfadzan.

10 A. I don't know that name.

11 Q. Avdo Helbet?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Nijaz Kovac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who is that?

16 A. Another relative.

17 Q. Feriz Kovac?

18 A. Uncle --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is going too fast with the reading. We

20 missed a couple of names.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. This list is very long. There are 94 names on it, and those

23 people are indicated in the document to be members of the 44th Mountain

24 Brigade of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the MUP. That is

25 written in the line above the first name we read out, and I just want to

1 ask you, are you aware that your father was either the member of the 44th

2 Mountain Brigade or a member of the MUP?

3 A. I know nothing about brigades or the MUP.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

5 further questions.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are no further questions.

7 Sir, I then thank you for having come from the United States to

8 testify, and on behalf of my colleagues, I thank you very much. And if

9 these hearings appear difficult to you sometimes, it is because this

10 procedure involves questioning from both sides and cross-examination by

11 the other party geared at checking and verifying what you said.

12 I wish you a safe trip home, and I will now ask Madam Usher to

13 escort you out.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, everything is ready

16 now for Monday.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours. Yes,

18 indeed, everything is ready for Monday. The witness listed will be

19 available and will testify pursuant to Rule 92 ter, and everything else,

20 as per the schedule that was circulated yesterday, remains in effect for

21 next week.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very well. Then I

23 wish everybody to work well until Monday.

24 Counsel Nozica.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just want to say one

1 thing. At the beginning of today's hearing, regarding protective measures

2 for the witness on Monday, I just want to reserve the right, for when we

3 see the reason why the measures are asked for, I want to reserve the right

4 to give our comments on Monday. I don't want our silence to be understood

5 as agreement.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The protective measures were

7 asked and the Prosecution explained or will explain in a document why.

8 Counsel Karnavas.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours. If I

10 may make some suggestions as to how we could be more efficient, because I

11 believe, with these sorts of witnesses, we should be able to handle two if

12 not three in one particular day.

13 Now, the witness -- as you noted, my cross dealt with simply

14 whether he went through the documents, which he did. Whether he went

15 through his statement. Now, based on that, we could have had a summary

16 with respect to the documents. When they showed these documents to him

17 during the proofing session, he could have come in and the Prosecutor

18 could have said, "We've shown him document X, Y, and Z," this paragraph,

19 that would have moved the document in and then we could have proceeded

20 with the cross-examination. I simply don't see the use of the whole

21 process we went through today. It's just too cumbersome.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, as you are the

23 President of the Defence Counsel Association, you have a particular

24 authority. The best solution would be to talk to the Prosecutor, between

25 you, and if you reach an agreement between you, you would inform us. And

1 in the contrary case, if you have disagreements, you would inform us and

2 then we would decide. But I appreciate your interest in increasing the

3 efficiency of these proceedings. I have noted already that the -- all the

4 Defence teams are working towards the same goal. But you would achieve a

5 lot by having closer ties with the Prosecutor. I'm sure that Mr. Mundis

6 would be open-minded.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly, Mr. President. Thank you for the floor.

8 We would certainly be amenable to meeting with the Defence, all

9 the Defence teams, to address this issue and I also note as was

10 communicated, I believe, earlier, clearly with respect to the witness that

11 will be testifying on Monday, that is in fact what we will be doing. As

12 everyone should be aware, the written witness statement of that witness

13 makes reference to a number of documents.

14 And just so everyone is clear as to what we will be doing, we will

15 lay the foundation for that statement and simply tender the statement, the

16 written witness statement and the documents that are listed and which are

17 discussed in the written witness statement. I have one additional

18 document to put a couple of questions to the witness on. I expect that

19 process to last simply five to 10 minutes, perhaps 15 minutes tops, and

20 then we'll move into cross-examination. But clearly, the witness that we

21 have coming on Monday would -- would be very similarly, I believe, to what

22 Mr. Karnavas has suggested and again we are -- would be quite willing and

23 open to discuss this issue with the Defence as a means of saving time.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Yes, Mr.

25 Stewart.

1 MR. STEWART: One very tiny practical suggestion in relation to

2 summaries, Your Honour, whether one is ever dealing with 89(F), 92 bis, 92

3 ter, the summaries that are provided sometimes for the benefit of the

4 public. Your Honour, I don't want to be in a position if somebody is

5 saying to his second wife that his first wife had wonderful cooking

6 recipes. But in the Krajisnik case, we adopted the practice of the

7 Prosecution providing these summaries in advance to the defendant, only

8 9.00 the night before, was absolutely fine, so that we could then check

9 just to see that there was nothing tendentious, nothing leading, nothing

10 that was inappropriate, and didn't reflect properly given that the

11 summaries are to be read out in the presence of the witness.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's a very interesting idea.

14 Mr. Mundis.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Well, perhaps, Mr. Stewart as -- as a, I guess, is

16 the second husband in this case, perhaps, but what we do in this case is

17 simply read excerpts from the 65 ter summaries. So what -- what is read

18 in terms of the expected testimony of the witness or the summary of the

19 witness comes directly from the Rule 65 ter summaries, whether it's the

20 entire summary or parts thereof, because some of the summaries are rather

21 lengthy, but those summaries, in effect, have been filed and are available

22 for the Defence to -- to have available to them.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. Then we meet again on

24 Monday at 2.15 p.m.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.53 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day

2 of November, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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