1 Monday, 4 December 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic et al.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today on Monday, the 4th of
10 December, 2006, I'd like to greet the Prosecution, the Defence, and the
12 I have two oral decisions that I will render before I provide you
13 with some information. Oral decision one that concerns the admission into
14 evidence of documents relating to Witness CD.
15 The Trial Chamber will now rule on the admission of documents into
16 evidence, documents that concern Witness CD who appeared on the 22nd of
17 November, 2006. The Trial Chamber hereby decides to admit into evidence
18 the following documents presented by the Prosecution since they have a
19 certain probative value and relevance. P 03019, P 08742, P 097 -- 038, P
20 09038, P 09038. In addition, the Defence didn't request to have any
21 documents admitted into evidence.
22 Oral decision number two, that concerns the admission into
23 evidence of documents presented when the witness Nihad Kovac was heard.
24 The Trial Chamber is hereby ruling on the admission into evidence of
25 documents that were presented when the witness Nihad Kovac appeared on the
1 16th of November, 2006.
2 As far as document P 02009 is concerned, a document that the
3 Prosecution is tendering, the Chamber notes that this document has already
4 been admitted into evidence.
5 The Trial Chamber rejects the objections raised by the Defence for
6 the accused Koric, objections with regard to P 01915 and P 02546.
7 In spite of the fact that the witness is not a military person,
8 this witness was in a position to corroborate certain information
9 contained in these two documents. As a result, the Trial Chamber hereby
10 decides to admit the following documents into evidence, since they have a
11 certain probative value and a certain relevance: P 09708 [as
12 interpreted], P 01915, P 02546, P 07985, P 08401, P 08952, IC 00091,
13 IC 00092, IC 00093, IC 00094, IC 00095, IC 00096, and IC 00097.
14 As far as the first document is concerned, there's a minor error.
15 It's not P 09708, it's P 09728.
16 Any addition, the Chamber admits into evidence document 3D 00575
17 presented by the Praljak Defence team since this document has a certain
18 probative value and a certain relevance.
19 I now have the following information I'd like to provide you with:
20 Last Friday the administration was informed of the fact that there would
21 be a routine control and a routine control revealed bacteria on floors 4
22 and 5 and in courtroom number 3. As a result, the President of the
23 Tribunal cancelled the hearings in the afternoon, the hearing that was
24 supposed to take place in the afternoon in this courtroom. Over the
25 weekend, certain steps were taken to check the system and to check to see
1 whether there were bacteria still present. There are two types of
2 bacteria, type A and type B, apparently. Type B can pose a potential risk
3 for those infected by this bacteria. Tests are being carried out and
4 tomorrow we'll be informed of the results of the analysis and of the
5 nature of the bacteria, of the type of bacteria. As a result, provisional
6 decision has been taken. The air-flow system in the courtroom will be
7 provisionally blocked. It might be a little hot in the course of the day
8 since the air-conditioning won't be working as usual.
9 I'd also like to point out that incubation period for this
10 bacteria can last for a few days and the symptoms are fever, headaches,
11 and coughing, and even diarrhoea. So if any of you have such symptoms you
12 should urgently consult a doctor so an analysis can be carried out in
13 order to determine whether you have been infected by such bacteria.
14 That's what the Tribunal's doctor has said. In his opinion, the
15 risks are minimal, so there is no reason to be concerned, but whenever
16 such problems crop up one should always take precautions.
17 I will inform you as soon as possible of the results of the
18 analysis. I will inform you of the existence or non-existence of bacteria
19 of type A or B.
20 Having said that, we will resume our work, and I will ask the
21 usher to lower the blinds so that we can call the first witness into the
22 courtroom. The Prosecution will have a 92 witness now, so I've been
23 informed that the Prosecution will be taking up 20 minutes, and, in
24 conformity with the list, the 65 ter list, the Defence will have an hour
25 and a half in total.
1 The protective measures that will be in place include the use of a
2 pseudonym and visual distortion.
3 Having heard this witness, there will be another witness
4 testifying, but this witness will be a viva voce witness.
5 I'll now ask the registrar to move into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 10998-10999 redacted. Private session
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
10 MR. FLYNN: In this case, Your Honours, the statement reflects
11 that the witness lived in Capljina. Until 1991 there was no ethnic
12 tension in the area. On the second half of 1992, the witnesses husbands
13 witnessed arrests of many Muslim intellectuals from Capljina and saw them
14 arriving at Grabovina barracks where he worked until the end of 1992. In
15 early July 1993, the police arrested the witness's husband. He was a
16 civilian. He was sent to Gabela.
17 She got a letter of guarantee to go to Germany, which included
18 guarantees from her husband but despite five attempts her husband remained
19 in Gabela.
20 In Capljina, most Muslim men had been arrested and the HVO
21 intimidated Muslim women and children and looted. In August, 1993, the
22 HVO began expelling the women. The witness was arrested with 33 others on
23 the 29th of September, 1993. She had to hand over her apartment keys to
24 the arresting military police and was taken to Silos. She arrived at
25 about 2000 hours and was registered and received no food. The next day at
1 around 1400 hours the HVO took her and others by truck towards Blagaj from
2 where they were made to walk towards the armija Bosnia and Herzegovina
3 area. The witness saw a body on the way. The witness and family went to
4 Mostar and ended up staying in Jablanica for some months. The witness
5 went to the Danish refugee camp at Ostrozac. Her husband was released
6 from Gabela on the 29th of November, 1993.
7 And that concludes the brief summary.
8 Q. Madam Witness, you heard me gave a summary of the statement. Did
9 you actually meet with ICTY investigators on the 6th of February, 2001,
10 and give a written statement to them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you give that statement freely of your own accord and
13 without any coercion?
14 A. Without any coercion.
15 Q. And at the conclusion, was the statement read over to you in your
16 own language and did you understand it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did you sign a French version of the statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And on arriving here in The Hague over the last couple of days do
21 you remember that you met with myself and another ICTY investigator? And
22 did you have an opportunity --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness's
25 MR. FLYNN:
1 Q. Yes. I think the answer was yes.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on that occasion did you have an opportunity of going over the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I think apart from some minor alterations you stand by the
7 statement. Is this correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I think in terms of the alterations, is it correct to say that you
10 wanted to change the date on which your husband was arrested from July
11 1993 to May 1993?
12 A. In May, in May.
13 Q. I think this was the 13th of May. Is this correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And I think you also, as a matter of clarification, wanted to say
16 that the -- that when you mentioned other people were arrested, you gave
17 the names of towns and villages such as Stolac, Visici, Pocitelj, and some
18 others. Is this correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And were you to give evidence again in full before the Tribunal
21 today, would you say what is contained in your statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, I just have a very -- a few short questions by
24 way of clarification. You mentioned on page 3 of your statement to the
25 ICTY that following the arrest of your husband the situation in Capljina
1 was tense. There was shooting in the town. You spoke about Muslim women
2 being arrested. And I ask you --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you approach the police, the civil police, for assistance?
5 Did you telephone them, for example?
6 A. No, because our telephones weren't working. Our telephone wasn't
8 Q. And would you have -- would you have been able to contact the
9 police if you wanted to, and do you know did the civil police render any
10 assistance to any problems that were in the town?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could I draw to your attention Exhibit 03160 in this booklet which
13 is in front of you. This is an order from the commander of the southern
14 sector dated the 3rd of July, 1993, commander of the HVO, and at paragraph
15 1 he directs and orders the civil police to take upon themselves
16 responsibility for protecting the civilians of Capljina and Stolac as well
17 as their property.
18 Can you tell us whether or not the police did this? Did you see
19 any police --
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. Could you look at the first exhibit in that booklet of
22 exhibits. It's 09799. This is the statement which you indicated you had
23 made, and if you look at the first page on the French version, can you
24 tell me is the signature at the bottom of the page on the right-hand side,
25 is that your signature?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. And if you turn the following pages to the end of the statement,
3 again is that your signature appearing at the bottom of the page? Do you
4 see this --
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. FLYNN: This statement is under seal, I should have mentioned
7 to Your Honours.
8 Q. Now, could you turn to Exhibit 09086 in the booklet. Before you
9 look at this, you mentioned in your statement that you had been taken to a
10 place called Silos. Is this correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were held there for a short time with some 34 other
14 A. Yes. There were 34 of us.
15 Q. What kind of a premises was this premises -- premises where you
16 were held?
17 A. It was a building in which they kept corn. It was something like
18 a warehouse.
19 Q. Could I ask you to have a look at the four photographs which are
20 attached as Exhibit 9086, ranging from 01449943 to 01449947. And if you
21 could just go through each photograph individually and tell me if you
22 recognise what is in that photograph, very briefly.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The first one, 0144-9943, what does that depict?
25 A. I can see the Silo on one side. There was a road there, and to
1 the side there's the entrance to the Silo.
2 Q. And it was to this location that you were taken. Have a look at
3 the second photograph. Do you recognise what's in the second photograph?
5 A. On one side is the Silo.
6 Q. This is photograph 0144-9944. The third photograph 0144-9945,
7 what's depicted there?
8 A. Also one side of the Silo which you would see from the main road.
9 Q. The next photograph, 144-9946.
10 A. The Silo once again from the other side, the side you can't see
11 from the main road.
12 Q. And finally, 0144-9947.
13 A. This is also the Silo but from the other side. I didn't go in
14 that entrance. I would go in from the other side.
15 Q. I see. Thank you very much.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 MR. FLYNN: At this point in time, Your Honours, I don't have any
18 other questions. Just to mention, there's -- there are a number other
19 exhibits but I don't propose tendering them at this time.
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: As a follow-up question, Madam, you have told
21 that you lived in Capljina and you'd like to -- no, somewhere else. You
22 would like to return to your flat in Capljina. Has there been any
23 developments over the last --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did return to Capljina. I went
25 back to Capljina in the year 2000.
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And you're again in your old apartment?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Was anything missing or was it still equipped?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was half empty, and some of my
5 furniture was missing. So half of my property was taken away. The other
6 half was still there. And it was rather damaged.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I also have a question, but I'd
10 like to ask the usher for us to go into private session.
11 [Private session]
12 [Open session].
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You explained to us that on the
15 29th of September, 1993, after visiting your mother you went back home and
16 at around 1930 hours two people came to your house, a be you said that
17 they were military police. One was wearing camouflage uniform that the
18 military police wears, and the other was wearing a blue uniform of the
19 regular police force.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, I would like to know the
22 following: Everybody knows that you have the civilian police and the
23 military police, that those are the two types of police forces. Now, the
24 two men who came to see you, what made you think that they belonged to the
25 police in the first place?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a camouflage uniform and a
2 blue one like the uniform that the police wore.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But the person
4 wearing the blue uniform, did he belong to the civilian police or the
5 military police?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably the civilian police.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And apart from the uniform was
8 there any distinctive sign telling you that they belonged to the police
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you drew that conclusion
12 yourself. You drew the conclusion that they belonged one to the civilian
13 police and the other to the military police; is that right.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Now,
16 when you left your apartment and handed in your keys, you went with your
17 children into minibus, a police minibus. How did you know that it was a
18 minibus belonging to the police? Did it say "Police" on the minibus?
19 What made you think that it was a police van?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was a black bus, a black
21 van, and they had a sign.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There were some letters, were
23 there? What did he say?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It said "Police." It had the police
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it said "Police," did it, on
2 the van?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And so they took you from there
5 to the Silo, did they?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
8 Another question from the Bench.
9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness CK, just to receive your
10 confirmation about the process of arresting you. Would you confirm, if
11 I've understood you correctly, that after having taken the able-bodied men
12 they arrested adolescents, too, and people over the age of 60, and having
13 done that there were various waves of arrests of women too. So young men
14 from 16 up to the age 60.
15 Now, when they arrested the women, the Muslim population -- there
16 was no -- there were no Muslim inhabitants in your -- left in your
17 village; is that right? Or there were Muslim women still in the village,
18 and when the people were arrested at the end of September the village was
19 empty, or did they leave of their own accord? I'm referring to the Muslim
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a town, not a village.
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. The
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a few inhabitants stayed on,
25 and then three groups later on, as far as I know, were rounded up and they
1 were taken to the Silo, and that's where they incarcerated us.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I see. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has one and a half
5 Counsel Tomic.
6 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 No questions for us from this witness.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours.
12 We'd like to thank the witness. We have no questions for her.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Nozica.
14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have a few
15 questions for the witness, but may we go into private session for me to do
16 so to avoid disclosing the identity of the witness.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 11011-11044 redacted. Private session
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
1 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness, you were mentioning that there were military conscripts.
3 What did you want to say about that?
4 A. Well, at the time -- how should I put it? The HVO had military
5 control, and the Bosniaks were at the lines between the Serbs and the
6 Croats. They also -- well, they held that line.
7 Q. Witness, you mentioned that the men in Stolac were taken away.
8 Who took them away when you said "they," "they took them away"?
9 A. Bosniaks. Bosniaks. The HVO. They had HVO insignia. I don't
10 know who they were because they were in camouflage uniforms. They had
11 these camouflage uniforms and caps. They -- they were armed. They were
12 people from Western Herzegovina, Neum, Capljina, from other places. From
14 There were some paramilitary formations that joined up with the
15 HVO. There were split forces. Some of them were in black uniforms. The
16 HVO had insignia on their uniforms, on their caps.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, your husband during this period between
18 April 1993 and July 1993, was he -- did he do any work for the HVO?
19 A. Yes. There was some sort of a civilian -- how should I put it?
20 He worked -- he transported food on a donkey of some kind, and some
21 weapons. He did this for about 20 days until they took him to a camp.
22 Later, he let him work in Inkos for the civilian protection, but he didn't
23 receive a salary.
24 Q. When he worked for Inkos, was this also before he was arrested, as
25 you mentioned?
1 A. No, he didn't work anywhere. He was in the civilian protection
2 during the war. In the first half of 1993, up until the time that he was
4 Q. Thank you. Now, let's move to the 3rd of July, 1993, and tell us
5 on this day what happened to your husband.
6 A. On the 3rd of July, well, he was still in the civilian protection
7 at the time, and he was supposed to be on duty in Inkos, in Stolac, but
8 some unidentified soldiers came. They knocked on the door. And that
9 morning we were sleepy. We heard the sound of shooting in the night. We
10 heard shouting.
11 I went to the door. They were knocking very loudly. I went to
12 the door. I said I really didn't know where he was. He was at Inkos or
13 elsewhere. The house was a big house. He was on the floor. He was
14 also on the floor, and he heard the noise. And that's how they took
15 him away.
16 Q. Now, what time in the morning was this when these soldiers
18 A. They came at about 8.00.
19 Q. And these people who came, were they in uniform?
20 A. In uniforms, yes, in black uniforms, and they had HVO insignia.
21 They wore caps. They were thin and armed. They banged on the door. They
22 didn't knock. They asked for my husband, although he wasn't liable for
23 military service. What was I to do? I went up to the floor, and I told
24 him, "They're looking for you. HVO soldiers are looking for you." I said
25 that he was in the HVO and that he worked for the civilian protection in
1 the Inkos company.
2 They took him away in his slippers. So I didn't know where he had
3 been taken to for a very long time.
4 Q. What about your son?
5 A. Without money.
6 Q. What about your son on that morning?
7 A. At that point in time they took my son away, too, together with my
8 husband. My son was about 20 or 30 metres behind my husband, but there
9 was a soldier there and said that my son was too young for what the HVO
11 Q. So your son came back, was brought back to you.
12 A. A soldier brought him back. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Just before moving on, when was the first time that you saw your
14 husband again after this?
15 A. After all of that, well, the first time I saw my husband was on
16 the 15th of December, 1993.
17 Q. Now, Witness, the --
18 A. I had no information before.
19 Q. Now, the day after your husband was arrested, what did the women
20 of Stolac do, the Bosniak women?
21 A. I don't understand.
22 Q. Witness, the next day did -- did you go and try and find out where
23 your husband had been taken?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you ever go to the headquarters of the HVO in Stolac?
1 A. Yes. On the following day we went to the command. I set off on
2 my own, but I bumped into a lot of women who were looking for their
3 husbands and children.
4 Q. Mm-hmm. And what happened --
5 A. And military conscripts, et cetera. We set off, and they told us
6 that they had offices in the nursery, but when we got there the offices
7 were full of documents. There was no one in them.
8 Q. Before moving ahead, you say that they were looking for their
9 husbands and children, and -- then after my interruption, and military
10 conscripts. Were they looking for military conscripts, or were military
11 conscripts with you? Sorry, I just want to understand what's on the
13 A. Well, they were their sons. They were their sons. The women were
14 looking for their sons who were in the HVO and at the lines, at the lines
15 between the HVO and the Serbian republic. I don't know what to call it.
16 It was some kind of a line that they were holding there.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, this nursery where you went to, where is
18 this nursery situated, in what part of town?
19 A. Well, it's a nursery. There's a place called Stari Grad, part of
20 Stolac called Podgrad. When you continue from Podgrad after Stari Grad --
21 well, that's what the area is called. It's behind Stari Grad and that's
22 where the nursery is located.
23 Q. When you say nursery, is that nursery as in kindergarten just for
24 the record?
25 A. Yes, a nursery school, a kindergarten where the HVO offices were
1 located and there was another building with offices there. But some of
2 them didn't let us enter that building, but we did enter the nursery
3 school. We entered the yard. We saw that a door was open. There was a
4 soldier standing at the door. He was holding a rifle, and he didn't
5 budge. We put questions to him. He didn't answer. And there were other
6 soldiers there.
7 Some of the soldiers provoked us, asked us what we were looking
8 for. We wanted to know why our families had been split up.
9 There were three men. One soldier approached me, and he
10 said, "Madam, what are your people doing in Bijelo Polje?" I told
11 him, "I'm interested in my family, in my Stolac. I can't see beyond,
12 because all the roads were blocked." He started harassing me. I
13 withdrew. These two men withheld him.
14 I looked around. I saw an Armoured Personnel Carrier with troops
15 on it. The personnel carrier was facing the women. There were soldiers
16 on the carrier in uniform, in HVO uniform. They had insignia, and they
17 had caps on.
18 The person who -- whom I managed to escape from, well, he went off
19 somewhere and fired. I don't know where. Perhaps he opened fire into the
20 air. I don't know. That's what the situation was.
21 We saw that it was all to no avail. We continued. Ivo Raguz, a
22 journalist, came out of the building. He was a well-known journalist who
23 wrote for Slobodna Dalmacija, the magazine Slobodna Dalmacija. He still
24 does. Since he was well-informed, we put some questions to him. He was
25 well-informed. He had a lot of information, but he frequently gave faulty
1 information as far as the lists of Bosniaks were concerned, as far as
2 their activities in Herzegovina were concerned. But there were a lot of
3 us women.
4 He took a pistol out of his left interior pocket, and if we asked
5 any questions they threatened to open fire. We stood there for a little
6 longer. The HVO commanders -- well, naturally if the troops hadn't
7 received orders they wouldn't have been there. And then we returned
9 There was some sort of an ambulance there. The forestry
10 administration used to be there. I came across Nino Palac. I asked for
11 some tranquilisers. I was really in a state. I was excited, nervous.
12 And I went home. I found my mother and children there and told
13 them that harm could have been done to me. We found out, well, absolutely
14 nothing on that day.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness --
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me if I interrupt. First, there is a
17 strange passage in the transcript on page 55, lines 16 and 17, where the
18 witness apparently said, "On their way to the command I bumped into a lot
19 of women who were looking for their husbands and children," and I wonder
20 whether perhaps what she wanted to say was looking -- bumping into a lot
21 of women and children looking for their husbands and fathers, because we
22 have no previous information that many children have been arrested.
23 So, Witness, were you looking -- were the women looking for their
24 children, or were they looking together with their children for their
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what it was about: I went
2 out alone, but along the way I saw that we had all been deprived, and we
3 were looking for assistance. There was an APC going round, so we looked
4 for the commanders, to see who they were who let these soldiers do what
5 they were doing and splitting us up like that.
6 There were women, about 250 women, 200 to 250 women, young girls.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were Bosniaks, the Bosniak
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak?
11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Just a linguistic
12 explanation. The language that the lady is using, I am also considered a
13 child for as long as my parents are alive. So when you say "child or
14 children, those children might be 20, 30. I'm still a child for as long
15 as their parents are living. I am my parent's child. So perhaps that
16 might help clarify the situation.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much.
18 There is a second point, but that is a substantive point. When
19 you recounted the encounter with the journalist who suddenly took out a
20 gun and threatened to shoot, a moment later you said, "They threatened to
21 open fire." Did someone else apart from the journalist also threaten to
22 shoot at you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just the journalist then. It was
24 after everything else, the last thing.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So according to my link, which is particular --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, Judge Trechsel.
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: -- he and they.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Judge.
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. The witness has said they threatened to
5 shoot at us, but if my linguistic understanding is correct, it should be
6 "he threatened," not "they," because there was only one person.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was an APC. There were a
8 number of them. That's what I meant, that they might shoot at us too. So
9 there were a number of them. And the young man who shot, I don't know
10 who -- where else he shot. I thought that he might do some more shooting.
11 Did you understand me?
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, for people listening to,
13 you or reading the transcript, when you say "the journalist," now, we know
14 that there were journalists who went around with soldiers. There might be
15 some confusion. So when you say "journalist," it was a soldier? It
16 wasn't an actual journalist, just a journalist [as interpreted]?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was wearing civilian clothes. A
18 journalist. He wasn't wearing a military uniform. He's a well-known
19 person, a well-known man. His name was Raguz Ivo.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but the weapon of a
21 journalist is a pen, not a revolver. So what was he doing there, this
22 journalist, with a weapon? Was he doing a reportage, writing some news or
23 what? Or was he taking part with others in an operation, a military or
24 police operation?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea. I'm just telling
1 you what I saw. What he was doing there and where he came from and why he
2 was there, why he had come, I don't know any of that. All I know is what
3 I saw, that he took out a pistol from the left inside pocket and said, "If
4 anybody asks me anything, I'm going to shoot them."
5 MR. KRUGER: Thank you.
6 Q. Now, Witness, just on this journalist, at that stage was he -- did
7 you hear any reports or read any reports by this journalist, or had you
8 recently at that stage heard reports by him in the media, on the radio?
9 A. Yes, on the radio.
10 Q. Okay. Now, could you give the Court a brief idea of what it was
11 like for you as a woman to live in Stolac from the 4th of July onwards,
12 1993? Did you have water? Did you have electricity?
13 A. My life from the 3rd of July, from the time my husband was taken
14 away, and even before, not only from the 3rd of July, it began a little
15 bit prior to that, well, the Bosniaks who were in Stolac, who were in
16 town, their houses were set on fire. Later on, after the 3rd of July, I
17 was inhaling carbon dioxide in the centre of town all the time. The
18 Sarajeva or Tsar's mosque was set on fire. It's a mosque dating back to
19 the 16th century, maybe even older, and around the mosque -- or in front
20 of the mosque you had the old marketplace, and it was surrounded by little
21 shops, butchers' shops, small apartments, shops of various kinds, little
22 cafes, cake shops, things like that, and all that was reduced to rubble
23 and ashes, and all I could breathe was carbon dioxide.
24 On the 13th and 14th of July, the HVO started torching, setting
25 things on fire. That's all they did. And in the centre of town, the
1 Carsija, the old part of town, well, my house is built of wood. It has a
2 lot of wood. It's an old house, and I kept looking to see. There were
3 four of us in the house. My husband had been taken away. But I just kept
4 looking to see when we would be set on fire. And I kept getting ready to
5 move out and go to stay with my neighbours who lived 3 or 400 metres away,
6 because everything was smouldering. It was all on fire. And I saw some
7 young guys doing this during the night. It was dark. They used
8 incendiary bullets. But on that time -- at that time they moved to the
9 new market which was some 30 or 40 metres away as the crow flies. And
10 they set the old market on fire. You can see how big the school is. And
11 the flames stretched beyond the school. And they said, "Well, it's the
12 1st of May. Call the fire brigade." They were singing songs saying,
13 "torch, set on fire."
14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry,
15 but I think the witness is reading from somewhere.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't bring this. I was given
18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours,
19 but I thought that the witness was reading this.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know this off by heart. I'm not
21 reading. I've been living there for 55 years. I was just looking at the
22 picture. The piece of paper was open at the picture.
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]
25 [Interpretation] Can you hear the interpretation? Can you hear
1 the English?
2 Madam -- it's working now.
3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'll restate my question. You just
4 said there was a 16th century mosque that was set on fire. Now, in your
5 written statement you refer to four mosques, but at the time you say the
6 fires took place when the conflict became intense between the HVO and the
7 BiH, ABiH. Now, since you were there and saw what was going on, the four
8 mosques that you mention --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, but I wasn't there.
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] What do you mean?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean where was I?
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'm reading your written statement.
13 The mosques were set on fire deliberately, or was it the result of the
14 intensive fighting that was taking place between the two armies? So
15 that's my question. Was it intentionally set on fire or was it set on
16 fire as a result of the fighting?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where do you say there were two
18 sides? In Stolac there weren't two sides. There were the Bosniak people
19 under the HVO, and all four mosques were set on fire during the month of
20 July. The Sarajeva mosque or Car's mosque, I saw it when it was set on
21 fire. The roof went first, and then the carpets were set on fire and
22 everything else that had been inside all these artefacts and everything
23 that had been there for centuries. There was so much smoke. I didn't
24 dare watch. I was so afraid. There was so much noise. There was no
25 electricity. There was shooting all over the place, in the marketplace.
1 You could hear shots and shooting from afar.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, the essential question
3 is -- you told us that you saw the mosque on fire, so the question is:
4 Who set it on fire?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw the mosque burning in
6 front of my very own eyes. You could hear the HVO soldiers. And those
7 are the only soldiers that were in town, the HVO soldiers. I couldn't see
8 anybody myself because it was dark. It was night-time. All I heard them
9 shout was, "Set everything on fire. Torch everything."
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you repeat the words that
11 you heard?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the mosque was set on fire you
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. What did you hear them
15 shout out? You just told us that you heard people say something. What
16 was it they were saying?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said -- one called out to some
18 others, there were several of them, I was looking through my bedroom
19 window when the new market was on fire and the mosque was on fire that
20 day, and it continued on to the evening hours, the flames were higher than
21 the school, the elementary school that you can see in front of you which
22 is a big building. You can probably see it in front of you. One of them
23 called out to the other, "Misa." And the other said, "Don't call me by
24 that name." I might have been 20 metres in my bedroom -- at my bedroom
25 window, some 20 metres away as the crow flies. They couldn't see me. But
1 later on I learnt that this was Mise Moro, some Mise Moro from Crnici or
2 something like that. I didn't ask around much. I wasn't that interested
3 because I could have been set alight together with my house. There were
4 enormous flames coming from the old marketplace and all the old buildings
5 around the marketplace and the flames that they had ignited. So I was
6 surrounded on all sides by flames.
7 So it was night-time. There was HVO shooting.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to get to the heart of
9 the matter. I'm asking you in Stolac were there any -- was there a fire
10 station? Yes. Were there any fire -- was there a fire brigade, firemen
11 that intervened? Did they come on that day or not? Firefighters.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't know that. I don't know.
13 Those in charge of the HVO and the HVO commanders ought to know that
14 because they had the town under their control.
15 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Now, Witness --
17 A. May I continue?
18 MR. KRUGER: May I just ask once again if we can have Exhibit 9583
19 up on the screen, and this is the photograph that we looked at earlier.
20 Now, Witness, earlier when you were telling us what happened in
21 Stolac on this day, it's the photograph right at the end --
22 A. Can I open it to that picture?
23 Q. Yes. You have it up on the screen as well. You see a mosque, or
24 at least a minaret, right in the middle of this picture. What mosque is
1 A. That is Sarajeva mosque, or the Tsar's mosque, the old mosque. In
2 the centre of town.
3 Q. And is --
4 A. And it was set fire to in the night between the 13th and 14th of
6 Q. And --
7 A. And the old marketplace. And the new marketplace.
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, now, you mentioned that three other mosque
9 were also set alight. Could you see these mosques from your place or what
10 happened to them from your house?
11 A. I could, because my house is a two-storey house. I could see
12 where the smoke was coming from and what was being set alight. I could
13 see that very easily. The other mosques were set on fire later on, the
14 26th or 27th. So that the whole town was smoking, and you couldn't tell
15 where the smoke was coming from there was so much of it around.
16 Later on, I asked for some key to my brother's flat, and I managed
17 to reach the bridge, the Cuprija, and I saw that the mosque on the bridge
18 was also set -- had also been burnt after the Tsar's mosque.
19 Q. Now, Witness, the three mosques before we carry on from --
20 A. In Uzdolici [as interpreted] you could also see the smoke from my
21 house. My house is rather high, so I could see that. I couldn't leave my
22 house anywhere. The HVO didn't allow anybody to move around. Just if you
23 did so in secret, but it was very dangerous and difficult to move around.
24 And every time you put your nose out of the door you would have a rifle
25 shoved in your face.
1 Q. Now, before moving on from there, the three mosques, apart from
2 the Tsar's mosque, how were they known to you, by what name, or how did
3 you describe them?
4 A. Well, it's like this you see: I had a lot of things to do before
5 the war. I just know them according to their location. One was in
6 Uzdolici, was on the Cuprija or bridge and one was in Podgrad. They have
7 their own names of course but I'm afraid I never learnt their names. All
8 I know is them by their low case, the site they were on.
9 MR. KRUGER: Now, Your Honour, I with ask the registry to put on
10 the screen Exhibit 8985, and it is the fourth page of the exhibit, a
11 photograph of a mosque.
12 Your Honour, perhaps to save time if we could look at the -- have
13 the Witness -- ah. Next page -- or two pages on. And another page. It's
14 the previous picture. If you could go to the previous picture. Or would
15 it be the next one. Sorry, my order is different than this. Yes. Thank
17 Q. Witness, do you see the picture on your screen?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Do you recognise that building?
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. KRUGER: With the registry's assistance, if we could look at
3 the photograph on the previous page of the exhibit. Those are the
4 pictures that were up on the screen just before this picture. Yes. If we
5 could look at the top one.
6 Q. Witness, do you see the picture or the photograph on your
8 A. Yes, I can. I can see it fairly well, actually.
9 Q. And what does -- what does this picture -- or what is it a
10 photograph of?
11 A. On this photograph you have Bregava River, which is where the
12 previous photograph was, the mosque. It was the mosque on the Cuprija,
13 or bridge, and it was set alight and mined. The mining took place after
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. KRUGER: And if we could look at the picture -- at the
17 photograph on the bottom of that page.
18 Q. That's the same view but just taken from across the river; is that
25 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I don't think it's necessary that we
1 mark that unless the Court wants to have those locations marked.
2 Q. Witness, if -- I want to show you another picture.
3 MR. KRUGER: And with the registry's assistance if we could move
4 to Exhibit 1021, and specifically the second page of the exhibit where
5 there are two photographs. Yes.
6 Q. Witness, the picture that you -- that you see on your screen now,
7 do you recognise that building?
8 A. Yes. That's the mosque.
9 Q. Which --
10 A. The Podgrad mosque, which was set alight in July 1993.
11 Q. Did you also see it burning from your house or not?
12 A. No. The HVO soldiers told me that that mosque had been burnt,
13 too. I asked them.
14 Q. When did you ask them?
15 A. I asked them, "Who's doing all this? Why are they doing all
16 this? Who needs it all?" And the answer they gave me -- well, I asked
17 them, "Did you have any orders?" And they said, "Yes. We receive orders
18 every morning about what we should do."
19 They did some shooting beside my house, but I had to go out now
20 and then to catch a bit of fresh air. And there was one of them that
21 were -- they were a bit nicer. So those are the ones I asked. They
22 weren't all that bad.
23 Q. When was this that you asked them these questions?
24 A. Well, every day, every evening. They would pass by my house and
25 my mother's house, so I could go outside into my yard without them
1 noticing me. I could go on two streets from my yard. I am by Trebinje
2 Street. So it's just two streets, one on either side, so I could control
3 the comings and goings and look out for myself without any major problems.
4 I was always sort of on duty watching, because I didn't know what to do
6 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. Can we go into
7 private session for just a moment.
8 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 MR. KRUGER:
6 Q. Witness, I'd like it to show you one further photograph --
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Please go ahead.
9 MR. KRUGER: Thank you. If we can have a look at Exhibit 08983,
10 and the very last page of that exhibit, which is a photograph -- or two
11 photographs. Yes. Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, the photograph you see in front of you, do you recognise
13 this picture, or the location at least?
14 A. Yes. I know it quite well. The mosque in Uzdolici.
15 Q. Thank you. And if we could just scroll down to see the second
16 picture. And that picture, do you recognise that? Is that the same --
17 A. It's the same mosque in Uzunovici. It's been significantly
18 damaged, so I'm not quite sure. It's difficult.
19 Q. Thank you. We can move on from there, Witness. I'd like to ask
20 you, before asking about the events of the 4th of August, what was the
21 situation regarding water and electricity in Stolac during the period of
22 July, or the month of July?
23 A. There was no water or electricity. As I was in a certain location
24 in the town, I was at a certain location when the HVO entered Stolac, I
25 received electricity via direct cable that linked up the hill and my
1 house. I received water -- well, the Serbs had turned the water off but
2 sometimes I received a little water. But if you look at Uzunovici, they
3 had no water. They went to the town water source, the town water pump,
4 which was in the street. And when I crossed the yard I saw HVO soldiers
5 piercing the containers women used to carry water in. So in that area, in
6 Uzunovici, it wasn't possible for them to have water. I don't know about
7 the electricity.
8 Q. Okay. Witness, let's move to the 4th of August?
9 MR. KRUGER: And if we could for a brief moment move into private
10 session, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, madam. You said
12 something that may have some importance. You said that the water supply
13 had been cut off, and then you said that --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The madams turned the water off.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, wait. You keep
16 intervening whenever someone puts a question to you. First listen to what
17 you're being asked and then answer the question. I'll start again.
18 You said that the water supply had been cut off, and then you said
19 that there was a water tap in the city, a source of water, and that women
20 went to collect waters with their containers there. And you also said
21 that HVO soldiers pierced these containers. Did you personally witness
22 this, or is it something you were told?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw that with my very own eyes.
24 But the water flowed freely to that water source, so we had a little water
25 there that came through the pipes. We didn't have water elsewhere. They
1 went to that water source, and I saw these soldiers with my very own eyes
2 when they pierced the containers the women were using. This was in the
3 month of July.
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can you describe us how they did this? Did they
5 shoot holes in it, or did they use hammers? How did they pierce the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had knives of some sort. I
8 observed this from my mother's yard. I was about 150 metres away from
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
11 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour. If we may move into private
12 session for a moment.
13 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. So, Witness, you said that two young soldiers came, and what
17 happened when they arrived? And don't mention names.
18 A. I don't know their names really. They were young men. Perhaps
19 they'd completed their secondary education. They had rifles on their
21 They said I should -- or that we should get ready in five minutes'
22 time and leave the house. I asked them where we were to go to. They said
23 towards the secondary school. That's where we were to gather.
24 Should I go on?
25 Q. Did they say why you had to gather there or go there?
1 A. Well, they didn't say anything. They only said that we should
2 leave the house in five minutes' time and that we should set off in the
3 direction of the secondary school, which is what we did.
4 Q. Before going on, could you take your keys to the house with you or
5 not? How did you have to leave the house?
15 The woman returned to her house and unlocked the door, and we set
16 off together. I then set off with these children, the two children.
17 Q. Thank you. If you could wait there.
18 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I apologise. There were indeed two
19 mentions in line -- page 74, line 18, and again on line 23 and line 24.
20 My apologies.
21 Q. Witness, at this stage we're in open session, so do not mention
22 names --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, that's why I asked
24 you about being in open session or private session. I knew this would
25 happen. Very well.
1 Madam Registrar, please prepare an order.
2 Mr. Kruger, you do understand that when you deal with such issues,
3 when you mention such matters, the -- the witness, who is very talkative,
4 will mention names.
5 MR. KRUGER: I understand, Your Honour. I -- I had thought we
6 were beyond that point, but I stand corrected. My mistake.
7 Q. Witness, from this point you left your house, and where did you go
9 A. I didn't leave it. I was driven out of my house. We went to the
10 secondary school.
11 When I approached the school -- well, the school's linked up.
12 There's the primary school too. I saw quite a few people from Uzunovici.
13 They had bags with them. They were in a column. Soldiers -- HVO soldiers
14 were passing by them. And right in front of the school -- well, there's a
15 lorry that arrive in front of the school and there was an immobile woman.
16 The soldiers why cursing and saying, "Why did that woman leave the
17 daughter there?" And then they asked -- when we arrived there we asked
18 them, "Why are you expelling us since we'll return?" Then we arrived at
19 the secondary school.
20 There were quite a few people from Stolac there. I could see that
21 the area the people were from was Uzunovici. The senten [phoen], cuprija,
22 and part of Luka. Those are the inhabited places.
23 Q. Now, Witness, at the school, is it correct you were taken inside
24 the school building --
25 MR. KRUGER: And perhaps, Your Honour, for safety, if we should go
1 into private session before the witness answers?
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 11071-11086 redacted. Private session
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.28 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day
3 of December, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.