1 Thursday, 7 December 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Case
8 number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to greet
10 the Prosecution, the Defence, and the accused.
11 Mr. Registrar, could we move into private session briefly.
12 [Private session].
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we're in open session,
10 I have two pieces of information. We have rendered a number of decisions
11 into evidence of documents, and you have been asked to forward after the
12 testimony of a witness by the following day the relevant list so that we
13 have IC numbers. You have also been asked to check that all the documents
14 on the list were previously scanned so that they're in the e-court
16 On the following day, if the other party has any objections to
17 raise in relation to the list, the Defence, if we're talking about a
18 Prosecution witness, can make written submissions to tell us -- or to
19 inform us of their objections.
20 As an example so that everyone can understand what is at stake, if
21 we have a witness, once this witness has testified on -- on Monday, the
22 Prosecution makes the list. On Tuesday -- or, rather, the Prosecution
23 makes its list on Tuesday and then the Defence makes its list. They
24 provide the documents on Monday. And if there are any objections that
25 either of the parties has to raise, they can be put forward on Tuesday.
1 That's the first thing I wanted to say.
2 And secondly, as far as 92 bis requests are concerned relating to
3 11 witnesses who will be testifying about Prozor, I'd like to congratulate
4 the Prosecution for its written submissions that in accordance with the
5 requests made by the Chamber as a result it will be possible for the
6 Judges to rule on whether these 11 statements should be admitted into
8 As you are well aware, pursuant to the rules the Defence may also
9 make submissions within a two-week time period. If you like, you can
10 forward your comments to us by next week at the latest, if that's possible
11 for you. Otherwise, you have two weeks. But you should inform us of your
12 positions. You should make your comments urgently so that the Chamber can
13 rule on the matter in an expeditious way. This is not an order. This is
14 an appeal I'm making to you.
15 That's what I wanted to say. I think that the registrar has a
16 number of IC numbers he would like to inform us of, so I will give him the
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 [In English] The list of exhibits proposed by 4D tendered through
20 Witness CG will be given Exhibit number IC 142. List of exhibits by 4D
21 for Witness CE will be Exhibit number IC 143. The list of exhibits from
22 3D for Witness CJ will be IC 144. The list of exhibits from 4D through
23 Witness CJ will be Exhibit number IC 145. The list of exhibits from the
24 OTP, Office of the Prosecutor, for Witness CK will be given Exhibit number
25 IC 146. The list of exhibits from 3D through Witness CK will be given
1 Exhibit number IC 147. The list of -- or the objections to the OTP list
2 regarding several witnesses from 3D will be given Exhibit number IC 148.
3 The OTP response to 2D's objections through Witness -- or through
4 documents tendered through Witness Salko Bojcic will be given Exhibit
5 number IC 149. And the OTP response to 5D's objections through Witness CG
6 will be given Exhibit number IC 150.
7 Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We now have a very
9 full schedule. The witness has a few more -- the Prosecution has a few
10 more minutes for their examination-in-chief, and then the Defence will
11 have at least two hours for their cross-examination, and then the second
12 witness will be appearing pursuant to Rule 92 ter, but if I have
13 understood everything correctly, the Prosecution will not have any
14 questions for this witness. So we should try to complete the examination
15 of these witnesses by 1.45.
16 I will now ask the usher to run to the blinds and to lower the
17 blinds very rapidly.
18 Yes, Counsel Kovacic.
19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given the schedule,
20 well, I wanted to inform you that we did have a few questions for the
21 witness today. We wanted to use the time allocated to us, an hour and a
22 half. And my colleagues have just added something. We'll probably take
23 up very little time with the first witness.
24 [The witness enters court]
25 WITNESS: WITNESS CO [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Yesterday, we said that
3 the Defence would have two hours for this witness, and the Defence would
4 have an hour and a half for the second witness. The Defence took the
5 floor yesterday and said that as far as the second witness was concerned,
6 they would rather use the time allocated them for the second witness to
7 put questions to this witness, and as I said, the Chamber is flexible and
8 it would be possible to use the time allocated for once of the witnesses
9 for the cross-examination of another witness. Has there been a lack of
11 Counsel Kovacic.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honours,
13 when you say that coordination was poor. Only some of the accused made
14 this discussion. As far as the Praljak Defence is concerned, we'd like to
15 use as much time as possible for the second witness today. And as far as
16 the first witness is concerned, we'll hardly have any questions. We'll
17 have very few questions for this witness.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak.
19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I
20 have understood, there will be far fewer questions for this witness than
21 for the second witness. So the total amount of time allocated will be
22 respected, and we'll see about how the time will be divided for these two
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's up to you to
25 use your time as you see fit. I won't interfere in that. But the most
1 important thing is to complete the hearing, to conclude the hearing by
3 Mr. Scott, I give you the floor now.
4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. Judge Prandler, good
5 morning, and to all in the courtroom good morning.
6 Examination by Mr. Scott: [Continued]
7 Q. And, Witness CO, good morning. Witness, I would just like to
8 briefly remind you of the procedure we followed yesterday, which I think
9 you did a very good job with. Please be cautious about the use of names,
10 and if we need to have a name, we'll try to go into private session for
12 A. I understand.
13 Q. Madam, in reviewing the record of your testimony last night, I
14 would like to clarify a couple of things about the mosque in Visici,
15 please. If I understood your testimony correctly, there were three
16 incidents concerning the mosque in approximately mid-July, 1993. Is that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If I heard you correctly, you said that in mid-July the first
20 thing you saw, a car drove up to the mosque, some soldiers threw something
21 inside. The windows were broken. There was the smell of wool burning,
22 that the rugs were burning. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, Your Honours.
24 Q. And then you indicated that a short time later, the next day or
25 something like that, I'll leave it to the transcript, you said at
1 approximately 3.00 or 4.00 in the morning there was another explosion, and
2 then you saw that the mosque had been destroyed. You said the walls were
3 like cardboard and there was no roof. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, Your Honours.
5 Q. And then you indicated approximately two days later at about 1.00
6 in the morning there was another explosion and you found that the minaret
7 had been destroyed. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, Your Honours.
9 Q. Now, I asked you yesterday in connection with what you said
10 yesterday that when you saw Mr. Praljak and saw him make the motion that
11 you described yesterday, you indicated that was after the mosque had been
12 destroyed. What I didn't ask you yesterday is, was it before or after the
13 minaret was destroyed?
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, madam. I see
15 that you're looking at the screen. Do you understand English?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, I don't understand. I can
17 see when the question has been completed.
18 I think that everything was destroyed. Everything had been
20 MR. SCOTT:
21 Q. All right. And -- but there were these three -- as I've indicated
22 this morning there were these three separate incidents; is that correct?
23 I just wanted to make sure that we have the sequence of those events
24 correct? Could we have that, please?
25 A. That's quite correct, Your Honours.
1 Q. Can I ask you please to look at, if you have there in front of you
2 there madam in the packet Exhibit 9285. Just very briefly photographs.
3 And again I'll caution you not to say any particular names about anything
4 in the photographs in terms of names of individuals. But if you can just
5 look at 9285, those three photographs, and can you tell us, are those --
6 each of those photographs of the mosque in Visici that you have testified
8 A. Yes, Your Honours. That was the mosque in Visici.
9 Q. Now, if we can go back to where -- sorry.
10 A. Yes, Your Honours. This is also the mosque in Visici. Yes. This
11 is the mosque, (redacted).
12 Q. All right. We'll ask that that not be -- we'll have to have that
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I was sure that
15 would happen, but I didn't want to intervene.
16 Mr. Registrar, could you prepare an order to redact that reference
17 (redacted) from the transcript. Line 11, page 8.
18 Mr. Scott, you should have been more cautious. If you knew it (redacted)
19 (redacted), you must have seen him. I didn't know who the person was.
20 One should have been cautious.
21 MR. SCOTT: That's why I'd started out if you look in the
22 transcript, Your Honour, I specifically cautioned the witness about that.
23 In fact, we're in open session now, so the more we talk about it, perhaps
24 we should go into private session.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right. You
1 did caution the witness, but if she sees her witness -- well, she'll
2 immediately say -- if the witness (redacted) she'll immediately say,
3 "(redacted)." We can understand that.
4 We'll redact all the references (redacted) from the
6 Yes, Mr. Scott there's another concern I have. You've shown her
7 three photographs of the mosque and (redacted), and you've asked her
8 whether it was the mosque, so you have the name in B/C/S on the
9 photographs. Well, even if she was a little hesitant, well, she'll
10 immediately say yes.
11 Now that we're in open session [as interpreted].
12 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Open session.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,
4 Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. SCOTT:
7 Q. Madam, again now if we can go back to where we were yesterday in
8 terms of -- you had talked about the fact that you had been -- you had
9 moved at this point to Capljina and then there came a time around the 23rd
10 of August, 1993, that you and other Muslims in the town were collected and
11 taken to the Silos and then transported further from the Silos, and I
12 think that's about where we had gotten. Is that correct, ma'am? You were
13 taken to the Silos and then you were loaded onto trucks again and
14 transported somewhere else?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what happened -- what happened, then, in this sequence of
17 events? Where were you taken? Approximately how long did it take you to
18 get there?
19 A. Your Honours, I haven't understood the question. Do you mean from
20 Capljina to the place that we were taken to, or after we had arrived --
21 Q. You had -- were taken to Silos. I believe you said at
22 approximately 10.00 that night you were then put on trucks --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- and taken somewhere. When you were put on trucks at
25 approximately 10.00 that night, what happened? What happened after
2 A. Your Honours, the lorries took us in the direction of Ljubuski. I
3 know the area very well. I lived there for 18 years in that area. I knew
4 we were going towards Ljubuski. And as we were passing through Ljubuski,
5 I could see from beneath the tarpaulin my surroundings. And then we took
6 a dirt road, a village road. It wasn't an asphalt road. There was a lot
7 of dust, as it was summer, and very frequently the lorry had to stop.
8 There were quite a few lorries, not just our lorry. I saw a column of
10 My children and my sister and other people, some of whose names I
11 know, were with me. It was terrible. It was painful. It was very ugly.
12 The children were sick. They vomited.
13 I didn't have a watch with me, but at around dawn we were taken to
14 the peak of a mountain. The lorry stopped there, and we were told to get
15 out. The women jumped out of the lorry. Naturally they took their
16 children with them. They dragged the elderly out. I had two children. I
17 didn't have to carry them. There were a lot of vehicles there, a lot of
18 lorries, some buses. There were troops, a lot of people. I saw a mass of
19 people there advancing down the road. It was also a dirt road.
20 Q. Can I stop you --
21 A. And we were all moving on. I took my children with me, and I was
22 in a hurry to leave that place as soon as possible because there were a
23 lot of troops. I followed the direction that everyone was going in, and
24 when I reached a place from which I could see the foot of the mountain, I
25 saw the Neretva River. I saw the entire column. Part of the column was
1 already descending. And as I have said, I was perhaps in the last lorry.
2 We walked for about 12 kilometres until we reached Dreznica.
3 There were a few houses there. There were no people in the houses. There
4 were some troops there. They said it was the armija. We were received by
5 them --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you are providing us were
7 a lot of very interesting details, but there is one detail that I'm
8 particularly interested in as it's important for me and my colleague --
9 for my colleagues who will have to rule on this issue. According to what
10 you have said, you apparently left the Silo in order to be released, set
11 free, because you got out of the lorries, and you were being freed.
12 While you were being transported, if someone had escaped from the
13 lorries, if, for example, you had jumped off the lorry, would some of the
14 soldiers have opened fire on you, or was this a convoy of people who were
15 being liberated, of people who were being taken from point A to point B?
16 Do you understand my question?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean on the way, while
18 travelling? You want to know if there were any guards while we were
19 travelling. Well, there was a police car behind us. I could see that.
20 The lights were on all the time. They were behind our lorry. I don't
21 know whether there were a number of police cars. I don't know anything
22 about the other people, but as far as I'm concerned I can tell you that I
23 wouldn't have been brave enough to escape.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us that there
25 was a police car. You don't know whether it was the civilian or military
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you have told us that there
4 were a lot of lorries and a lot of people. So if I have understood you
5 correctly, there were perhaps hundreds of people escorted by a police
6 vehicle in which there were a number of policemen, but they were in fact
7 behind the convoy. Is that how the convoy progressed?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you were put onto
10 lorry, were you told that you were going to be released, liberated? Did
11 anyone tell you anything, or were you just told to get into the lorries,
12 to keep quiet? What did they tell you if they told you anything? Perhaps
13 they told you nothing.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we had no idea about
15 where we were going. No one told us anything.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.
17 MR. SCOTT:
18 Q. Madam, in reference to the Judge's questions just now, I take it
19 you were -- you were sitting in the back of a truck; is that correct? A
21 MR. SCOTT: I believe the witness said yes, but ...
22 Q. You have to speak up, ma'am, please.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And was there a cover on the truck?
25 A. Yes. But the tarpaulin wasn't tied.
1 Q. Is it correct, ma'am, that the view -- your view of everything
2 that was going on was -- was limited both by the truck itself and by the
3 circumstances? Is that correct?
4 A. I could lift the tarpaulin a little and look out.
5 Q. When you got to the point where the truck stopped approximately 12
6 kilometres from Dreznica, you said you moved away quickly because there
7 were soldiers there; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Approximately how many of the soldiers or the police or the people
10 who were driving the trucks or guarding the trucks, approximately how many
11 of those people did you see when you and your children were taken off the
12 truck at that location? Approximately.
13 A. I can't say exactly, Your Honours. There were a lot anyway.
14 Q. The place where you were - excuse me - taken out of the truck, can
15 you give us any further name or -- of that location or description? You
16 said you were taken to a mountain or a hill approximately 12 kilometres
17 from Dreznica. Can you give us any further name for that location or of
18 the mountain?
19 A. The place was called Vrda.
20 Q. Now, you say you walked approximately 12 mile -- excuse me,
21 kilometres, to Dreznica. What happened when you got to Dreznica?
22 A. The soldiers we found there told us we had to go up the mountain
23 quickly -- or, rather, no. That we weren't allowed to go out into an open
24 space, that we had to sit there.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That we had to sit
1 there crouched and gathered together.
2 MR. SCOTT:
3 Q. And what happened after that?
4 A. We were thirsty. We were tired. We were hungry. The water
5 wasn't far away. The lake and Neretva River wasn't far away, but we were
6 told that we weren't allowed to go and fetch some water because that a --
7 because a sniper could hit us from the top of the mountain. I listened to
8 this order, and I think everybody heard it, too, but a child went off with
9 an empty bottle. It ran off to bring some water from the Neretva River.
10 I didn't see when the women started screaming, "They've wounded him.
11 They've wounded him." Then I saw that the clothes of the child were
12 bloody. I heard that from the other women that he was Boskailo. He was
13 five or six years old. I don't know what happened to the boy afterwards,
14 whether it survived or not, whether the child was taken to the hospital or
15 not. I don't know. I didn't learn anything about that.
16 Q. When you heard the child was wounded, wounded in what way?
17 A. Your Honours, I saw a bloody shirt on the child. They were
18 carrying the child. Now, how the child was injured, I can't say.
19 Q. When you say that you had arrived at this location and you were
20 thirsty, at that point of what military force were the soldiers that were
21 around you by the time that you got to Dreznica and you were at this
22 location near the Neretva River?
23 A. It was the Bosnia-Herzegovina army.
24 Q. And who told you to be careful about snipers?
25 A. Well, those soldiers. And later on when UNPROFOR arrived, they
1 told us too. They said we had to be very careful.
2 Q. Which leads to my next question. Around this time or sometime
3 after you'd been at this location, did UNPROFOR soldiers and vehicles
5 A. Yes, they did, Your Honours. They did arrive. The soldiers
6 arrived and the trucks arrived and the APCs arrived.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, a technical question.
8 Now, the fact that this young child was injured raises questions. I
9 understood it on the basis of what you said that the truck stopped, that
10 you were told to get out, and you were cautioned not to go to the water,
11 to go straight ahead of you and stay there, et cetera.
12 Now, when the truck stopped, could he have gone forward or did the
13 truck stop because you had arrived at the BH army zone and then for
14 security reasons they told you to get off the truck and walk the final 12
15 kilometres? So when you were walking, were you in a zone that was
16 controlled by the ABiH or the HVO, on the basis of what you were able to
17 see? Perhaps you didn't know.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm an ordinary
19 housewife. I think it was the bit of land that two armies had to have
20 between them, like no man's land. That's my opinion anyway.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So in your opinion,
22 you passed this no man's land between the two sides, and then you arrived
23 at the place where this young boy was wounded by a sniper shot, as you
24 told us; is that right.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam, for giving us
2 those additional explanations. They're important.
3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. When the UNPROFOR vehicles arrived, what happened after that? You
5 can basically just tell us -- what we'd like to do ma'am, our time is
6 limited, unfortunately. Where were you taken? What happened after the
7 UNPROFOR vehicles arrived?
8 A. The UNPROFOR vehicles took us to the opposite bank of the Neretva
9 River, to the M17 road and the tunnel there.
10 Q. And where did you ultimately wind up during this time in terms of
11 where did you arrive and then live for a time, stay for a time?
12 A. I didn't understand what you meant by "ultimately."
13 Q. All right. My apology. During some part of this process were you
14 taken to a place called Buturovic Polje?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was -- go ahead. UNPROFOR drove us to the tunnel, and we got
17 out there and sat in the tunnel, and then some other cars arrived, buses,
18 trucks from Jablanica. And then they transported us. They drove us
19 towards Jablanica.
20 When the bus I was in arrived in Jablanica, I saw people making
21 this gesture and saying we couldn't stay there probably there were too
22 many people so they took us to Buturovic Polje.
23 Q. And how long did you stay there?
24 A. I stayed there for two months, and then I crossed over to
25 Ostrozac, to a refugee camp there that at that time the Danes had
2 Q. And approximately how long did you live in this refugee camp at
4 A. A little more than a year.
5 Q. Now, concluding with the questions except for a couple of
6 documents, madam, and then -- is it correct, as you told us yesterday,
7 that it was not until April, 1994, that you saw your husband again?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And you saw your husband -- excuse me. You saw your son again on
10 approximately the 1st of August, 1994?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SCOTT: With the assistance of the video booth. If we could
13 please -- we have a video clip, Your Honour, which is Exhibit P 04484.
14 Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How long is the video clip?
16 MR. SCOTT: I believe -- I think -- the way it's been -- the
17 excerpts are down to about 6 -- approximately 6 minutes, Your Honour.
18 What I would suggest is that there is no audio or that it not be played
19 with an audio, and that for the reasons that we experienced earlier today,
20 that we go into private session for purposes of anything the witness might
21 say. The video itself can be shown. It's not a problem with showing the
22 video. The problem is she might make some comments about it.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. Private
24 session, Mr. Registrar.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 11317-11351 redacted. Private session
16 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11353-11405 redacted. Closed session
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day
10 of December, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.