070109ED

Page 11883

1 Tuesday, 9 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Case

9 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. I'd

11 like to say good morning to all those present in the courtroom, the

12 Prosecution, the Defence counsel, the accused, and everybody else in the

13 courtroom, and especially the jurist extraordinary who is present,

14 Mrs. Linda Murnane, who has done us the honour of attending today's

15 proceedings. And as I said yesterday, she is a first-class legal officer

16 that has been attached to this Trial Chamber, and she will be of

17 assistance, tremendous assistance to the Chamber. She was one of the

18 leading people in the American tribunal, military tribunal, and she will

19 I'm sure be very efficacious in assisting us in our work, and I invite you

20 to contact her any time that anybody has any problems, any

21 misunderstandings, and generally speaking to get to know her, and I'm sure

22 she will give us very quick and concrete solutions for any of our

23 problems. So I should like to welcome her here today.

24 Having said that, I would like to give the floor to the registrar

25 for us to read out the IC numbers. Mr. Registrar, you have the floor.

Page 11884

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 [In English] Several parties submitted lists of documents to be

3 tendered through Witness Kajmovic. The lists submitted by the OTP will be

4 given Exhibit number IC 184. The list submitted by 2D will be given

5 Exhibit number IC 185. The list submitted by 3D will be given Exhibit

6 number IC 186. And the list submitted by 4D will be given Exhibit number

7 IC 187.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Before I give the

9 floor to Mr. Kruger to continue with the examination-in-chief, I would

10 like to make a brief remark, and then I'll give the floor to

11 Counsel Alaburic.

12 We have received on the 15th of December, 2006, a request from the

13 Prosecution with respect to the arrival of an expert witness who will be

14 testifying about sniper fire. So the Defence will have to respond to the

15 request, and the request was made pursuant to Rule 94 bis.

16 I'd just like to ask Mr. Scott whether he intends to bring in this

17 expert witness during February, and I think you want six hours for the

18 examination-in-chief, and then the rest of the week will be taken up with

19 the cross-examination, which means that we're going to spend one whole

20 week, if that is the case, for testifying about 14 snipers leading to --

21 sniper firing leading to persons injured and shot.

22 Now, as far as I'm concerned, in this expert report there doesn't

23 seem to be any explicit reference to the victims listed in paragraph 114

24 of the indictment, more particularly pages 11 to 13 of the annex to the

25 indictment. So it would be highly advisable if we were to know exactly

Page 11885

1 what victims were affected by the snipers.

2 And also my second concern that I have and that the Chamber, I'm

3 sure, has is to know whether the expert witness had access to documents

4 with respect to the deployment of HVO units and their movements or the

5 BiH, and whether they were the snipers, because the Judges have to answer

6 a fundamental question, and that is to know who fired, who did the

7 shooting. Because as you know, the Judges must be able to address and

8 answer questions of that kind. Who shot? Which unit?

9 Now, having read the expert report, there is no mention of any

10 specific unit. So I am afraid that we're going to spend one whole week in

11 order to arrive at a conclusion that people, yes, were indeed wounded or

12 killed, but nothing more than that, without being able to specify anything

13 further.

14 So those are my concerns at this stage, and my thoughts. Mr.

15 Scott, would you like to address that? Because between -- in a month's

16 time as everything has been programmed to take place in one month, the

17 Chamber will have to give a -- rulings and then you'll have to have a

18 response from the Defence. So there is a certain amount of urgency. Go

19 ahead, please.

20 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours. Yes, we

21 do anticipate calling the expert in the early part of February. I'll come

22 back to them another time, at the end of my comments, but, yes, we do

23 intend to do so.

24 As to some of the particular questions the Judge has raised, I

25 hope you understand I'm not in a position this morning to give you answers

Page 11886

1 off the top of my head. I was -- it's not something I looked at recently

2 and did not anticipate the Court's questions this morning. I'll be happy

3 to look into particular questions.

4 I believe that in fact the expert report does show and will show

5 the analysis of where shots came from, the types of -- type of weapons

6 likely to be used, et cetera, et cetera, and the situation of the victims.

7 So off the top of my head, Your Honour, I'm not entirely in a position to

8 agree with the Chamber's assessment.

9 As to the particular -- identifying the particular units involved

10 in the sniping, I'm not -- I'm not aware of any -- I'm not aware of any

11 ICTY case, sniping case, that has done so, given the information

12 available, typically available in these cases. I believe the expert will

13 show -- be able to show that the firing came from known or suspected

14 positions on the HVO -- HVO side of the confrontation line, and beyond

15 that, Your Honour, I'll have to wait for additional study to respond to

16 the Court's questions further.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott. You're

18 quite right in telling us that you can't answer the question in morning.

19 I just wanted to draw your attention to that fact.

20 And now I'd like to draw your attention to another problem. There

21 were victims, whether they were people killed or wounded, and I presume

22 although we haven't elements of that kind that perhaps the local

23 authorities conducted investigations and conducted expertise. Perhaps

24 there were some autopsy reports and things like that. I don't know. But

25 it would be very advisable if there were such investigations on the ground

Page 11887

1 that the Prosecution and, if not, well, the Defence could inform the

2 Chamber about that.

3 So I'm going to conclude on that matter now. We're going to take

4 the matter up again on Wednesday amongst ourselves. We're going to

5 confer. Because to have one week of testimony we'll have to decide

6 whether that is efficacious and useful and put that all within the

7 frameworks of the economics of time and how we're going to use our time.

8 So we're going to come back to that issue on Wednesday, and we'll tell you

9 the Trial Chamber's feelings in that regard. And of course we're waiting

10 for a Defence response.

11 Madam Alaburic was on her feet a moment ago. I give her the

12 floor.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Relying

14 on the B/C/S translation which always lags behind, I thought that our

15 registrar had forgotten some exhibits with the IC numbers, but I do

16 apologise to the registrar for even having thought such a thing because I

17 realised later on that that's something that had already been done. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we can

20 continue, but before I give you the floor, Mr. Kruger, I'd just like to

21 remind you that in theory you have three-quarters of an hour left at the

22 most, the outside limit. And that, having studied the very voluminous

23 documents that you have given us, I can see that there are at least five

24 that you haven't put to the witness yet where the witness's name is

25 mentioned. So in order to avoid any problems later on and avoiding us

Page 11915

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Good morning everybody.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. I have to call you "Witness" because I cannot name you.

4 Do you know that attacks on Dubrovnik in 1991 began from the

5 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. I heard about that, but I was not a witness to that in any way.

7 Q. Did you watch that on television?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did the government from Sarajevo and the Presidency of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina have the capacity to prevent those attacks in any way? Were

11 they prevent -- were they it able to prevent the attack of one country

12 against another country?

13 A. I do not know.

14 Q. Are you aware of the fact that several hundred officers of the

15 Yugoslav People's Army of Bosniak Muslim ethnicity were still in the

16 Yugoslav People's Army at the time?

17 A. I heard they were.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute, Mr. Praljak. The

19 AV people tell me that when you ask a question you have to turn off your

20 microphone and let the witness answer, because if you don't it causes

21 interference.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you know that the greatest majority of those Bosniak Muslim

24 officers who were in the Yugoslav People's Army moved to the army of

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina only after Sarajevo was attacked?

Page 11916

1 A. I have no such information.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could these maps please be

3 shown on the ELMO, and I would ask the usher to take these in this order,

4 please.

5 Could you raise the map, please.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do the Judges have these

7 documents, Mr. Praljak?

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No. They were drawn last

9 night, Your Honour. Regrettably, we were not able to finish that work.

10 Q. Witness, to the best of your knowledge did the attack of the

11 Yugoslav People's Army, the reservists and what we call Chetniks, look

12 like this, the attack at Mostar, Stolac, hills around Mostar, Dubrovnik,

13 all the way up to Neum? Do you know this military situation of 1991,

14 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know that Neum was defended then mainly with the

17 participation of King Tomislav Battalion led by Nijak Batlaz [phoen], also

18 known as Badza -- Daidza?

19 A. I only heard from others what happened in that area.

20 Q. Do you know that in that battalion, King Tomislav, there were a

21 lot of Muslims? It was led by Commander Daidza.

22 A. I heard something, but I know nothing for a fact.

23 Q. Can we have the next map, please?

24 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, if the Prosecution may also just point

25 out we also have not received these documents, so we are also not prepared

Page 11917

1 to deal with them. Thank you.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not battalion,

3 regiment.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] If I may. The accused prepared

5 these maps himself last night after hearing most of the testimony it.

6 Technically we were not able to tender these and provide copies, but later

7 we could have an IC number and tender them in that way.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, this is an identical map only in relief. Do you know

10 that after the capturing of elevations above Mostar and of the right bank

11 of the Neretva River the plan of the Serb attack was also to advance

12 towards Ploce and Split?

13 A. I know there were combat activities, but I really don't know

14 anything about these plans. I was only a witness to these events.

15 Q. You heard about forceful combat operations to stop Serbs towards

16 the west from Mostar, from the surrounding hills towards Cule, and the

17 middle of the Neretva valley towards Metkovici? Do you know about this?

18 A. I heard from the media.

19 Q. Does this map correspond to the facts on the ground in 1991 and

20 1992, to the best of your knowledge? It's identical to the previous

21 one.

22 A. I know that I was in a part where Serb forces were present as an

23 occupying force for a while, and as for these events in broader terms, I

24 really didn't know anything about this except from media reports.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness. Can we have the next map, please.

Page 11918

1 My question before this map is this: Are you aware of the fact

2 that due to the Serb attack already in 1991 and before they arrived in

3 Stolac, between 15 and 20.000 Bosniak Muslims, refugees, from expelled

4 from Gacko, Nevesinje, and other areas that Serbs considered as their

5 territory?

6 A. I know that refugees from Gacko municipality, Bileca, and Ljubinje

7 [phoen] came to the territory of Stolac in large numbers after the

8 withdrawal of Serb forces to areas overlooking Stolac.

9 Q. Do you know that around 15.000 people from the said places came to

10 Mostar?

11 A. No.

12 Q. As the Serbs moved into Stolac and further on in the Neretva

13 valley, the SDA issued an order to place roadblocks on roads so that

14 Croats wouldn't be able to leave those areas. Did you hear about that?

15 A. I first hear of it now.

16 Q. Were there some Muslims who greeted, welcomed the Serbs as

17 liberators?

18 A. Possibly, but they could only have been a minority.

19 Q. Thank you. You said yourself something about naivete and that it

20 explained how you had some cooperation with the Serbs. Do you know the

21 fate of Vukovar, Split, Skabrnja, at least from media reports?

22 A. Yes, but I knew more about Visegrad, Bijeljina, so that in fact I

23 don't really understand what cooperation you mean. It was only a

24 consequence of overwhelming Serb military force, not our desire for

25 cooperation.

Page 11919

1 Q. I understand that perfectly, but you knew about Bijeljina, Gacko,

2 Visegrad, and the fate of the people from those areas?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. After that, in May 1992, 10 to 12.000 Muslims crossed the Neretva

5 River near Pocitelj on rafts to arrive in the territory of the Croatian

6 Community of Herceg-Bosna, didn't they?

7 A. What time do you mean?

8 Q. May 1992.

9 A. Which month in our language?

10 Q. May.

11 A. I know that in those times there were large movements of the

12 population, but since I myself did not leave Stolac at any point, whatever

13 I heard was not reliable.

14 Q. Did you know that this liberation of Stolac in June, on the 16th

15 of June, began with the breakout through the first defence lines. Serbs

16 on the left bank of the Neretva?

17 A. All I know is that at the beginning of combat operations there was

18 strong artillery fire, and we were able to hear it since we were close.

19 As for other operations, I was only able to hear about them from other

20 people.

21 Q. Do you know in military terms that the enemy is beaten first at

22 first lines, Tasovcici, Brdo, et cetera? After that, the enemy withdrew

23 and later infantry battles take place as they start pulling out.

24 A. I am not competent to make any judgements about that.

25 Q. I'm asking this because everybody keeps saying that Serbs withdrew

Page 11920

1 from Stolac. Their first frontlines were in Stolac.

2 A. It was -- our opinion, based on the information we had, was that

3 it looked like withdrawal, looked like retreat in view of the scale of

4 that retreat. So it looked like retreating to agreed lines.

5 Q. But you knew that from the position of a person from Stolac, not

6 as a person who knew what infantry and other battles took place after they

7 retreated from the Neretva River.

8 A. Of course I was not on the Neretva River. But it's also true that

9 I met a large number of people who were living in the area at the time.

10 Q. Did you learn about the number of killed and injured, the amount

11 of ammunition used, the engagement of forces?

12 A. I heard something about that, but we were surprised by the small

13 number of men killed. I remember that we were surprised at the lone

14 losses.

15 Q. What do you imply by small losses?

16 A. Although we didn't know much about those military activities, but

17 if ten men were killed in such combat, it seemed odd to us that there were

18 so few losses after artillery fire and similar things.

19 Q. You said yourself that the HOS was there, the 116th Brigade, and

20 the HVO. Do you know about the losses of the 116th brigade, the HVO, the

21 HOS?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. It's clear that there was an independent battalion involved from

24 Gacko -- I'm sorry, in Mostar.

25 A. No, I don't know about that.

Page 11921

1 Q. Do you know that in this liberation of Stolac the entire 116th

2 Brigade was engaged or only a part of that brigade?

3 A. I cannot tell.

4 Q. Do you know that in the 116th Brigade of the HVO in Metkovic there

5 were 300 Muslim volunteers as members of that brigade?

6 A. I knew there were Bosniaks in that brigade, but how many, I don't

7 know.

8 Q. Can you assume that the fact that they reported to the brigade in

9 Metkovic was inspired by their wish to fight against the enemy? It's not

10 something that the state authorities in Sarajevo wished.

11 A. I don't see it that way, but they had their own reasons why they

12 did that.

13 Q. Please look at the map. Red designates lines at which the Serbs

14 managed to stop the HVO attack. Reference is made to Mostar, Stolac, and

15 Neum on the other side. All this was June 1992.

16 It's a small map, but according to your knowledge does it reflect

17 facts on the ground?

18 A. I can only speak about Stolac.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, to help you understand

20 this map, could you show us Stolac on the map?

21 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In -- next to Stolac is there a large hill called Hrgut?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11922

1 Q. Do you think that it is militarily easy to capture that hill,

2 which is well fortified against enemy forces?

3 A. You know that very well as a soldier, but the Serbs did not

4 retreat only to Hrgut hill. They retreated both to the east and to the

5 west of Hrgut hill. As long as we're speaking about military things, they

6 did not retreat only to Hrgut and the canyon of the Bregava River.

7 Q. In 1992, in June, two months after the HVO was established, was

8 such an operation involving the crossing of the Neretva River a difficult

9 one even for better trained and better equipped forces?

10 A. Can you repeat the question?

11 Q. Since the HVO was established as an army only two months earlier,

12 in fact it was a volunteer force and they had to cross the Neretva River

13 when no bridge existed, was such an operation, including the capturing of

14 Stolac, a very difficult operation even for better and -- better trained

15 armies such as the foreign legion and things like that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Your answer was yes, was it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, when the left bank of Mostar was liberated and when there was

20 an advance towards Nevesinje, that at that time the Yugoslav People's Army

21 used the air force, and that in Podvelezje the air force inflicted heavy

22 losses on both the HVO and the BH army?

23 A. I know that the planes went into action. As to the fatalities and

24 losses, I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. Do you know that -- do you know whether we had any weapons to

Page 11923

1 fight that air force, to counteract it?

2 A. I really can't say. I don't know.

3 Q. After the liberation of Stolac in June 1992, were all the people

4 who left the territory able to go back to their homes?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Who couldn't return and why?

7 A. It was a matter of choice, but for the most part there was

8 artillery fire from the Serb side. So in most of Stolac municipality a

9 normal life was impossible without running a great risk.

10 Q. Yes, that's right understandable both from the human aspect and

11 every other. My question -- next question is this: The civilian HVO

12 authorities, did they forbid anybody from going back home?

13 A. There were no instructions along those lines, as far as I know.

14 However, there was the danger of combat operations in that area during

15 that time.

16 Q. Thank you for that answer.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

18 Witness, I was going to ask you this question yesterday, but I'm

19 going to ask you now since Mr. Praljak came back to the subject. When the

20 Serbs left Stolac, you said that it was a retreat, a withdrawal, but then

21 you added that they continued shelling Stolac with their artillery.

22 Now, this shooting, how long did it last, this shelling of

23 Stolac? Was it incessant firing over a period of months or how long did

24 it last?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was continuous and

Page 11924

1 lasted for several months, and it was especially intense in the centre,

2 and the outskirts of Stolac were targeted especially.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you give us some months, a

4 date?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you exactly when the

6 intensity of the shelling was reduced, what month that was, but I can tell

7 it you in general terms that this intensive shelling went on for at least

8 four months.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, yesterday you said that the Croats didn't cross the line

11 behind Stolac because they didn't want to, and I was a little astonished

12 by that, so I'm asking you this now: Do you think that the deblocking of

13 Sarajevo is something that the BH army did not want to do or could not

14 do? Could it or did it not want to lift the siege of Sarajevo? Is it

15 possible that the 2nd Corps in Tuzla did not want to prevent the

16 corridor -- could not prevent the corridor through which the Serbs

17 attacked Bihac and so on?

18 A. Sir, I think that it would be best to leave questions like that,

19 referring to those regions, for the time being, because I cannot tell it

20 you, particularly not from a military aspect. I'm not the right person to

21 ask.

22 Q. Witness, I wouldn't be asking you this question had you not made

23 an observation yesterday and said, "They did not want to." If you had

24 said, "I don't know why they stopped," then I wouldn't be asking these

25 questions now, but that is the only reason that I had to ask you that.

Page 11925

1 And you say you don't know anything about military matters. But never

2 mind, I'll move on to my next question.

3 You've said yourself that on the 15th of August, 1992, a strong --

4 there was a strong tank and infantry attack on Stolac with the objective

5 of reaching the Neretva River and cutting off the left wing of the HV that

6 was at the entrance to Dubrovnik. So was this a strong tank and artillery

7 attack on Stolac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your opinion, did it require speedy, rapid intervention, and

10 was it successfully stopped?

11 A. Yes, it was successfully stopped around Stolac municipality. I

12 can't testify about any other area.

13 Q. So this counter-attack, was it launched exclusively by the HVO to

14 the best of your knowledge?

15 A. I know that that along the front lines above Stolac there were

16 Bosniaks together with Croats there within the frameworks of the military

17 units of the Croatian Defence Council under the command of the forward

18 command post of Stolac.

19 Q. Yes, that is correct. There were a lot of Muslims in the HVO.

20 And when I say HVO, I don't only mean the Croats. I'm referring to Croats

21 and Muslims alike who were members of those units. Do we agree on that

22 score?

23 A. For that period of time, yes.

24 Q. May we have the next document, please, on the ELMO. Thank you.

25 This is a map of Banovina on the right, of a set-up of the former

Page 11926

1 Yugoslavia, and some witnesses said that we stopped at Stolac along the

2 borders of the Banovina. So would you answer this question: Do you know

3 that Scepan Kriz, that the Banovina borders were a lot further to the

4 right, so we would have had to stop far before this historical area

5 existed, the Banovina.

6 A. I know that the boundaries near the town of Stolac and the area

7 around Dubrovnik, but I don't really know the exact boundaries and borders

8 of the Banovina, where they were exactly.

9 Q. In Stolac, yes, but do you know towards Dubrava, Scepan Kriz, we

10 stopped a lot before the so-called Banovina borders?

11 A. Well, I don't really know the details of that.

12 Q. Thank you. May we look at the next map, please. Look at the

13 other map. Not this one, the big map to your right. Yes, on the screen.

14 Did you hear about the Bura operation?

15 A. No, not under that heading, "Tempest."

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Microphone.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

18 Q. Do you know of the date the 7th of November, 1992, up to the 15th

19 of November, 1992, that there was heavy fighting in the area that you see

20 on the map, from Mostar to Stolac, Scepan Kriz, Combor [phoen], and so

21 on?

22 A. I did hear about that, and I was a witness of some of at that

23 combat action.

24 Q. Do you know that it was a joint HVO and BH army operation?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11927

1 Q. Do you know that with that combat operation we wanted to repel the

2 Serbs further, to weaken their power and to shift the borders of the

3 liberated part of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. I don't know. I couldn't describe it that way, the way you're

5 putting it, but it was normal that there were combat operations under way

6 in a war.

7 Q. Would you find Scepan Kriz on the map? You're familiar with the

8 map, so point to Scepan Kriz for us, please, and tell us whether in that

9 fighting two legendary HVO soldiers lost their lives, Bozo Simovic and

10 Pero Dalmatin?

11 A. Yes, I know about that.

12 Q. Thank you. May we have the following document shown: 3D 00647.

13 And I'll go back to the ELMO later on, to the map on the ELMO later.

14 It's a document which on the 25th of July, 1992, was signed in

15 Zagreb by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, President of the Presidency. The 21st,

16 yes. The 21 July. And Mr. Franjo Tudjman, the President of Croatia. It

17 is an agreement on friendship and cooperation between the Republic of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia. Have you got the document

19 in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in paragraph two, does it say the following --

22 A. I don't have paragraph two.

23 Q. Yes. It says: "Proceeding from the common interests of their

24 countries in the protection of their independence and territorial

25 integrity." Is that what it says?

Page 11928

1 A. I can't see paragraph two.

2 Q. Well, yes. It's the second sentence.

3 A. I see.

4 Q. Is what I have read out correct, "in the protection of their

5 independence and territorial integrity"? That's what it says, doesn't

6 it?

7 A. Yes, yes. I understand that.

8 Q. And then it goes on in point one, they agreed upon the following.

9 I can't go through the entire text, but we'll just look at Article 1.

10 Yes, page 2. Article 1 is on page 2. "The president of the Presidency of

11 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the president of the Republic of

12 Croatia agree that the future state establishment of Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 will stem from the full equality of the three constituent nations, the

14 Muslims, the Croats, and the Serbs. The constitution and political set-up

15 of the country will be based on constituent units and national,

16 historical, cultural, economic, traffic, and other elements will be taken

17 into account in their establishment."

18 Is that what it says there?

19 A. Yes, I can see that.

20 Q. May we look at page 4 now, please, Article 6.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask that the English be placed

22 on the screens as well. Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

24 Q. Just the first part. It says: "The armed section of the Croatian

25 Defence Council is part of the united armed forces of the Republic of

Page 11929

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Croatian Defence Council will have its

2 representatives in a joint command of the armed forces of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina."

4 Is that what it says?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, on that same page, under point 8, the little sentence -- the

7 second paragraph which says: "In that goal both states will continue

8 their successful cooperation within constant coordination in defence in

9 the border zones between them."

10 Does that mean, sir, that in the border zones the HVO in Posavina

11 or, for instance, the Neretva River valley did have the right to

12 coordinate with the Croatian army in the defence of joint territory,

13 because Dubrovnik could not have been defended otherwise, and because the

14 Neretva River valley and Stolac could not be defended in any other way?

15 A. What you say is logical. However, I do not know -- or, rather,

16 even if there was something that was contestable, it was later on, not at

17 this point in time when this agreement was reached.

18 Q. Thank you for that answer. In 1992, schools in Croatia, had they

19 introduce additional tuition in Bosnia for children, Bosniak children?

20 A. In part, yes.

21 Q. Do you know that there were more than 45 schools which did

22 this?

23 A. No, I don't know about that.

24 Q. I'm just going to go through my other questions quickly. Do you

25 know that the Croatian army set up a wartime hospital of the second

Page 11930

1 echelon in Metkovici?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know that right up to an open conflict between the HVO

4 army, the HVO and the BH army, and even then all the wounded and injured

5 were treated in that hospital indiscriminately?

6 A. I don't know how long this went on for, but I do know that all the

7 injured and wounded did have access.

8 Q. Tell me now, please, up until March 1993, the end of March, and

9 even the end of April 1993, had a political solution been found for

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Would what we're experiencing now, that is to say

11 clashes between Croats and Muslims at different levels from time to time,

12 would they have been far less and would have been easier to take, given

13 the wartime conditions, had a political solution been found up until

14 now -- until that time? Would things have been far easier to contend with

15 given the wartime conditions?

16 A. In my modest opinion, if I had any influence at all, that is what

17 I strove for, that a final solution be sought and awaited at a higher

18 level. But I was not able to prevail upon the Croats I talked to at that

19 time to be patient and wait, to wait until a solution and settlement along

20 the lines of what you're saying was found.

21 Q. Yes, but up until then, had a solution been found, the situation

22 would have been far different and the things that happened later on would

23 not have happened?

24 A. That is possible. It is a possibility.

25 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, this calls for speculation, this line of

Page 11931

1 questioning.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, if I can be heard also to support

8 General Praljak in that, given the amount of speculation elicited from

9 this witness by the Prosecution, I think it lies ill in their mouth to

10 make this particular objection.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In political terms it, without

12 entering into the realm of speculation, do you have a political answer to

13 give to that hypothesis? If so, tell us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I can say is this:

15 During those winds of war and under those drastic conditions, had we had

16 contacts with the government in Sarajevo, and had we been kept

17 well-informed, we were of the opinion that throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina

18 it was possible to solve the problem but not through military means

19 exclusively.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can I place the next -- can

21 I please have the next map on the ELMO. Could you please expand it a bit.

22 Larger, broader.

23 Q. Are you aware of the facts indicated here? 8th of June, 1993,

24 25.000 Croats were expelled from Travnik. Are you aware of the fact?

25 A. I'm not in a position to say anything precise about these events,

Page 11932

1 but I know that what is shown on the map is linked to some combat

2 operations and that people fled the areas, but I cannot give you any more

3 detail.

4 Q. But you would agree with me that what is written on the map

5 constitutes a certain fact that you cannot elaborate on but it is correct,

6 isn't?

7 A. Yes.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next map, please.

9 Q. Do you know about the operation of the army of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The record did not record your

12 answer. Mr. Praljak showed you a map with several bubbles indicating

13 facts such as movement of population, and Mr. Praljak asked are you

14 challenging these facts. Your answer has to be recorded. What is the

15 answer?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered that I was aware,

17 Your Honour, that large numbers of people were moved from these areas, but

18 how many and exactly when, I really don't know.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

20 Q. To my question whether you know about the facts indicated on this

21 map, you said that on the whole, yes, you were aware.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Thank you. Next map. Do you know that after the attack of the BH

24 army at Bugojno in end July 1993, a large offensive of the BH army was

25 mounted called Neretva 93 under the command of several Halilovic involving

Page 11933

1 liberation of Mostar, Stolac, and emerging even at Ploce which is

2 mentioned sometimes? Do you know anything about that?

3 A. I know on the whole that these operations took place, but with

4 what objective and according to what plans, I don't know. And I cannot

5 have an opinion about that based on the information that I have.

6 Q. Did you maybe read the book of Sefer Halilovic called "Sly

7 Strategies"?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Do you know that these -- this fighting lasted for months

10 uninterrupted?

11 A. I know there was fighting, but how much and of what intensity, I

12 don't know.

13 Q. You said you heard yesterday, you said there was on their part

14 this wish to emerge on those lines, to free communication lines and roads.

15 That's why I asked.

16 Anyway, I asked you about that tobacco. Seven tonnes was told to

17 Milan Rebac in Capljina from the tobacco factory. Do you know that toe

18 back was, was 3 or 3.5 Deutschmark per kilo at the time?

19 A. I could agree, but I really don't remember.

20 Q. I'm asking you this because --

21 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I truly apologise for this interruption.

22 I just wish to draw the Court's attention that we are in open session, and

23 at page 48, line 24 to 25, there is a segment that may require redaction,

24 Your Honours. I apologise for this.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Our legal officer

Page 11934

1 will show me the lines and then I'll see.

2 Go on, please.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Well, that name is not

4 related to this gentleman in any way.

5 Q. I'm asking you this because, do you know that the Brigade Knez

6 Domagoj numbered around 4.000 men?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Do you know that the salary of an HVO soldier was around 100

9 Deutschmark, 50 euros? Do you know that?

10 A. I know that they had wages, but what the -- in what equivalent, I

11 don't know.

12 Q. Do you know that there was absolutely no discrimination against

13 Muslims in the payment of wages?

14 A. I know that at the beginning everything was fair.

15 Q. Do you understand this beginning to last until April 1993?

16 A. I cannot tell you anything precise.

17 Q. You say in the beginning. Does that mean until April 1993?

18 A. I meant the beginning, the time when joint units were formed that

19 lasted six or eight months. I really can't be specific.

20 Q. I just wanted to compare how much one brigade cost against 21.000

21 Deutschmark that could be earned from that sale of tobacco on which the

22 Prosecutor insisted so much.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please, Mr. Praljak

24 had 45 minutes in total. How much has he used?

25 Go on, ask your last question.

Page 11935

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] All right. My last

2 question.

3 Q. How many times before you were arrested did you go to Croatia?

4 A. Three times.

5 Q. You said just before you were arrested a pistol was found on you.

6 Tell me, as a human being, when you travelled to Croatia, did you carry

7 that gun with you? Were you inspected?

8 A. I did not carry my gun to Croatia.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Next counsel.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Witness --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Sorry. Since the witness

13 confirmed everything that I showed him, could he just sign the maps and

14 date them during the break so that we could have it? It is for the Court,

15 not for me. It's an obligation before the Court.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Witness, during the break very soon, mark the maps with your

18 initials, CR, and today's date.

19 Ms. Alaburic.

20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning. To begin with, I would

23 like to clarify certain details from your testimony regarding 1992. You

24 told us that Mr. Meho Dizdar and Mr. Smajo Cerkez were in hiding from the

25 HVO as early as June 1992, when Stolac was liberated.

Page 11936

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In June 1992, the Bregava Brigade had not been established, nor

3 was it in the process of being established.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Would you agree with me that it would be logical to conclude that

6 these two gentlemen's hiding had nothing to do with the establishment of

7 the Bregava Brigade? They were hiding in for some other reason?

8 A. They were afraid for their own lives because there were threats

9 against them.

10 Q. Their fear for their life was not a consequence of the

11 establishment of the Bregava Brigade?

12 A. Not at that time.

13 Q. What about Mr. Meho Dizdar? Was he also a member of the SDA?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. What post did he occupy in town before the Serb occupation?

16 A. Chief of police, as far as I know.

17 Q. What post did he occupy during the Serb occupation?

18 A. He was one of the police officials in the police station, but I

19 don't know his exact position. It must have been a senior position. He

20 was certainly not a regular policeman.

21 Q. Witness, let me remind you that you gave a written statement to

22 the Office of the Prosecutor, and in that statement you described

23 differently the position of Mr. Meho Dizdar. You said he was man number

24 one in the civilian police. Can you refresh your memory?

25 A. I'm sorry, but I can say that the chief of police was Mr. Pero

Page 11937

1 Raguz. However, since he left Stolac, it's possible that the next one

2 down the line in the establishment was Mr. Mehmed Dizdar.

3 Q. So let us sum up. During the occupation the man number one in the

4 hierarchy in the police in Stolac was Mr. Meho Dizdar.

5 A. That could be true.

6 Q. What about Mr. Smajo Cerkez? Did he occupy a position during the

7 Serb occupation?

8 A. He worked at the police station. What exactly his job was, I

9 don't know, because I didn't even know him personally. I wasn't even

10 interested.

11 Q. You told us a moment ago that around four months was the duration

12 of the shelling of Stolac and the surrounding area by the Serb army. That

13 was the duration of the conflict between Croats and Muslims on one side

14 and Serbs on the other.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it justified to believe that --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down, please, and repeat this

18 last question.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [No interpretation]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you are going so

21 fast that the interpreters are not following. Please ask your question

22 again.

23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I apologise to the

24 Court and the witness and the interpreters, but I have only half an hour,

25 and I am trying to say as much as I can in that time.

Page 11938

1 Q. My next questions will be related to the events in Stolac after

2 the liberation and the creation of military units.

3 If I may sum up your testimony, Witness, you told us that in July

4 1992, two battalions of the HVO were formed of mixed ethnic composition.

5 Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, in principle.

7 Q. You told us that it was the rule that the commander of one

8 battalion would be a Croat and his deputy a Muslim, and in the other

9 battalion vice versa. The Muslims would be the commander and the Croat

10 the deputy.

11 A. Yes, in principle.

12 Q. The commander of these joint forces -- the commander of these

13 joint forces was an HVO officer, Mr. Bozo Pavlovic; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. His deputy was Mr. Edin Obradovic; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Edin Obradovic was a Muslim, wasn't he?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell us, at that time in July and August, did you have any

20 indication that the HVO was trying to form mono-ethnic units, that it was

21 discriminating in any way against the Muslims or excluding them.

22 A. I don't know about that. I can only confirm that at that time our

23 cooperation on all issues was solid and in the interest of both sides, at

24 least from what you could see in public.

25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I would ask P 00492 to be placed in

Page 11939

1 e-court. There is also a set of documents that we can show the witness if

2 he finds it easier to look at a hard copy.

3 Q. Witness, do you have my set of documents?

4 A. Yes, it seems so.

5 Q. So P 00492. Page 2 in B/C/S, please. We don't have this cover

6 page in B/C/S -- sorry, in the translation. The translation is in the

7 French language.

8 Witness, this is a communication, a dispatch from the Bregava

9 Brigade signed by Commander Bajro Pizovic dated the 16th of September,

10 1992, and it was addressed to the 1st Herzegovina Brigade in Capljina; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes, I can see that, but I see the document for the first time.

13 Q. All right. Let's look at it together. Tell us, the Bregava

14 Brigade, as you told us yesterday, was a monoethnic brigade consisting

15 only of Muslims?

16 A. In principle, but not exclusively.

17 Q. Do you know of any member of the Bregava Brigade who was not a

18 Muslim?

19 A. I know that there were one or two persons. However, since the

20 brigade was first based in the South Camp in the town of Mostar, I did not

21 have occasion to encounter most of the members, and I had no insight into

22 the documentation of the brigade, so I cannot give you a precise answer

23 whether there were any non-Muslims or not.

24 Q. So you're saying that you don't know that there was somebody there

25 who wasn't a Muslim. Is that what you're saying?

Page 11940

1 A. I can't say either way.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, from this document that was signed by Bajro

3 Pizovic, from the first sentence it would emerge that the Bregava Brigade

4 of Stolac was established on the 21st of August, 1992; is that right?

5 A. I didn't know the date but I can see it there.

6 Q. Bajro Pizovic goes on to inform that, up until the present, 300

7 volunteers reported and that they were additionally trained in the subject

8 of military theory and practice.

9 A. Yes, I see that it says that.

10 Q. Now, in the third section it says that the brigade can place in

11 the -- a company of men in the first frontline made up of 120 people who

12 were armed with the necessary weapons to conduct infantry operations. Is

13 that right?

14 A. That's what it says. I don't know any more than that.

15 Q. Then it goes on to say the following: They are asking that this

16 unit be included in combat action under the command of the 1st Brigade,

17 and in that -- with that objective it mind it would be visible to enable

18 the brigade, one, to have the necessary area of responsibility; and,

19 second, a location for accommodating the unit; that is right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then it goes on to say that the activities attend and, with the

22 formation of the brigade, that everything was done to ensure food supplies

23 for the soldiers up at the front; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And finally it says that in the planning for taking over the area

Page 11941

1 of responsibility it would be necessary to link us up in a joint system of

2 communications and artillery support; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell us, although it doesn't say so expressly, would it emerge

5 from that that the commander of Bregava is addressing the command of one

6 particular unit or HVO Brigade in Capljina?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Tell it us, please, do you know that the

9 Bregava Brigade had its own area of responsibility and that it held a

10 certain portion of the front line, the defence line facing the Serb

11 army?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Tell us, do you know that there were -- there was a code of

14 conduct when entering an area of responsibility belonging to another

15 brigade according to which each and every soldier from one brigade

16 entering an area of responsibility of another brigade should report to

17 that brigade? Was that a general rule contained in the code of conduct,

18 not only between Bregava and the HVO Brigade but generally speaking

19 between and among HVO brigades?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. General Praljak showed you an agreement on friendship and

22 cooperation signed between Alija Izetbegovic and Franjo Tudjman, the two

23 presidents, and I'd like to ask you this: Do you know that pursuant to

24 the laws enacted by the authorities in Sarajevo the HVO was part of the

25 armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 11942

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. Now let's discuss during the 15 minutes I have left

3 about some events that took place in 1993. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted). That is what was recorded on page

9 69 of yesterday's transcript more or less. Have I interpreted your answer

10 correctly?

11 A. Yes, in principle.

12 Q. Then you went on it tell us that you asked Kraljevic the

13 following: If that was a legitimate military operation, why were people

14 detained who were under the age of 14 and over the age of 70, and why was

15 the civilian population displaced; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. From your question, it would emerge that this operation under

18 certain conditions could have been legitimate. So I'm going to ask you a

19 number of questions in that regard.

20 On page 51 of the transcript, you told us that the Muslims in the

21 civilian police, that you instructed them to continue working in Mostar or

22 in other military units of the BH army, or in other words you recommended

23 that they leave the civilian police force which existed, if I can put it

24 that way, under HVO control; is that right?

25 A. Yes, but they worked together.

Page 11943

1 Q. Well, we'll come to the reasons later on. Tell us, please,

2 whether you made these same recommendations to the Muslims in the military

3 HVO units.

4 A. Only in cases when the military police was supposed to go and

5 solve the problems in Prozor.

6 Q. Can you be more precise? What period of time are you referring

7 to? October 1992, are you?

8 A. I don't remember the date when the excessive situation was

9 prevalent in Prozor municipality, but I do know that the military police

10 from stole was asked to go to deal with the situation in Prozor. And

11 since I knew that about 90 houses belonging to Bosniaks had been burnt

12 down, I gave instructions that the Bosniaks should not join the military

13 police and go and resolve the conflicts over there.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Tell us, please, apart from that did you call upon the Muslims in

17 the military units of the HVO to leave the HVO and join up with the BH

18 army?

19 A. No, I didn't do that at all.

20 Q. Did you know about any activities like that, that is to say

21 appealing to Muslims to transfer from the HVO to the BH army?

22 A. All I can say is what my opinion was and my knowledge about that

23 was, which I've done.

24 Q. In your opinion and to your knowledge, did the Party of Democratic

25 Action or some of its leaders and functionaries call upon the Muslims to

Page 11944

1 leave the HVO and join an army of their own?

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, if I may just point out we're still in

8 open session and that will require redaction.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, unfortunately so.

10 Mr. Registrar, prepare an order to have that struck from line 21,

11 page 61.

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, did you have any knowledge about the fact that certain

14 units of the BH army maintained or tried to maintain relations with

15 Muslims in the HVO so that those Muslims, as a sort of Trojan horse, would

16 carry out an assignment at some point?

17 A. Of course there were -- was thinking along those lines and

18 discussions like that, especially when problems occurred or when incidents

19 occurred in Stolac municipality and Capljina themselves.

20 Q. So to the best of your knowledge, apart from thinking about things

21 like that and discussing them were there any specific concrete activities

22 to tie up, which was the phrase used, with the Muslims in the HVO?

23 A. As to the Bregava Brigade's command is concerned and since they

24 belonged to the 4th Corps of the BH army located in Mostar, I really am

25 not able to speak about any possible action on their part with respect to

Page 11945

1 the manpower in the HVO of Stolac.

2 Q. All right. Now let us take a look at a document together which is

3 already an exhibit but will be a basis for my next question. It is 4D

4 00035, and it is an order by the commander, Bajro Pizovic, dated the 18th

5 of April, 1993. And I'd like to ask you to take a look at page 2. Yes,

6 4D, 4D. Let me repeat the document number. 4D 00035. You have it in

7 your bundle.

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. The document has been circulated to Their Honours and everybody

10 else. We have it on e-court. Let's take a look at page 2, in the

11 middle -- or, rather, point 3, fourth line. I'm going to read out what it

12 says, a be this is important because the political parties are mentioned.

13 The commander, Pizovic, says as follows: "The organ for moral

14 guidance and religious affairs will elaborate a plan for informing the men

15 of the composition of the brigade, the population in the territory of

16 Mostar and Capljina municipalities and Stolac, and Muslim soldiers who are

17 in HVO units of the aforementioned municipalities. In elaborating this

18 plan, have an exchange of views and listen to proposals with SDA municipal

19 boards," and then the text goes on to say what it does.

20 Now, my question to you, Witness, is this: Did the Party for

21 Democratic Action or the Municipal Board of the SDA, to the best of your

22 knowledge, ever take part in compiling or elaborating plans like that?

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11946

1 (redacted).

2 Now, as far as the IPDs and VPs are concerned, those services and

3 their plans and programmes, I really did not take part in any of that. I

4 could not, nor did they need my services at all in that respect.

5 Q. Let us take a look at another document, Witness, together. 4D

6 00036. It is also a document that has already been admitted. It is a

7 report by the commander of the 4th Corps of the BH army, Arif Pasalic,

8 dated the 2nd of May, 1993, and I should like us to concentrate on the

9 final portion of point 3, which says as follows: "The men from the HVO of

10 Capljina has -- have the task of taking control of the village of

11 Tasovcici and the bridge in Capljina with the aim of preventing forces to

12 be brought in from the Metkovic axis. The villages have been secured

13 and -- by courier link, and what is particularly important, take control

14 of the town of Stolac with our people, our men in the HVO."

15 Now, tell us, Witness, did you know that the BH army had its men

16 within the HVO?

17 A. All I can do is speculate what they meant when they said that,

18 because there were many Bosniaks in both armies, in both battalions, so it

19 would be difficult for me now to specify what was meant by this.

20 Q. Witness, you told us, and this was shown by the documents, too,

21 that the men of military age were isolated and that this began on the 30th

22 of June and the 1st of July, 1993. Can you tell us what happened in

23 Mostar on the 30th of June, 1993?

24 A. I can't remember all these events, what you mean by that, what

25 happened. I don't know.

Page 11947

1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, let me jog your memory, did the BH

2 army perhaps take control of some important positions in the Mostar area

3 and its environs?

4 A. I really can't say anything about that. I don't know.

5 Q. Perhaps I can explain in greater detail. Did you hear about the

6 fact that the BH army on the 30th of June took control of the Tihomir

7 Misic barracks for instance and the area around Bijelo Polje? Did you

8 ever hear about that?

9 A. I was probably in the camp at the time.

10 Q. No. You were detained afterwards. You told us that you were

11 incarcerated later on. We're talking about the 30th of June.

12 A. Ah, yes. I see. I do know that there was fighting, but I was not

13 able to move around at the time. There was a -- there were many problems

14 in reaching Capljina, let alone anything else.

15 Q. But did you learn later on, perhaps, that those positions in

16 Mostar were taken control of by the BH army because of the betrayal that

17 the Muslims in the HVO conducted? And tell us whether you have any

18 knowledge that it was this that was the immediate purpose?

19 Yes, my colleagues have rightly said that your answer was not

20 recorded, and my question was whether you knew that the BH army had taken

21 control of these positions in Mostar and surrounding parts thanks to the

22 fact that the Muslims -- thanks to the Muslims' betrayal within the HVO,

23 their treachery?

24 A. I just heard some things about that.

25 Q. And my last question, in view of the time that I have at my

Page 11948

1 disposal, is this: Do you have any knowledge whatsoever about the fact

2 that these events were the reason why the Muslim military-able men were

3 isolated in order to prevent similar things from taking place in other HVO

4 areas?

5 A. I cannot accept that formulation.

6 Q. It doesn't -- it's not a question of your acceptance or

7 non-acceptance. That's not how I wish to discuss this issue. But did you

8 have any knowledge whether this was the reason for which the action was

9 taken on the 1st of July? Not as justification. Let me just make that

10 clear. Not as a justification but just as a fact, that this was the

11 reason which triggered the action. Did you know about that, yes or no?

12 A. No.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best thing -- yes,

15 Mr. Kruger.

16 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. May I just point out or

17 request that page 63, line 21 be redacted. And I would also request to

18 perhaps just make one observation prior to our adjournment, if I may.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

20 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, with regard to

21 the request that the witness initial or sign the various maps that were

22 shown to him, just with regard to that, Your Honour. If the signature is

23 a characterisation that the witness confirms those maps and the details

24 contained on them, the Prosecution cannot agree to that. The transcript

25 will show that the witness did not confirm each and every aspect.

Page 11949

1 Sometimes he said, "I don't know" or "I cannot confirm that." So the

2 record will have to speak on that matter. That's all. Thank you,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the fact that the witness

5 has put his signature to the maps means that he's seen the map and can

6 refer to the transcript, with respect to his answers to the questions

7 posed by Mr. Praljak, in the Chamber's view. It does not mean that

8 everything that is on the map is true and correct.

9 Now, we're going to have to take a 30-minute break, but let me ask

10 you before the break. Where you placed CR on the map and today's date --

11 or, rather, place CR on the map. And we're going to come back in half an

12 hour.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. To begin with,

16 before giving the floor to counsel, the Chamber wishes to specify that the

17 two documents that the witness signs means nothing but that he has seen

18 them. It doesn't mean that his signature means recognising the document

19 or confirming it. That has to be clear to everybody. His initials means

20 that he has seen the document and answered the questions and that with

21 regard to those answers one needs to reference these documents.

22 So, Registrar, we will need IC numbers for them.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. The first map that the

24 witness was shown will be given Exhibit number IC 88. The second map will

25 be given Exhibit number IC 189. Sorry, the first map is IC 188. The