Page 11976
1 Wednesday, 10 January 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness enters court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, registrar. Can
7 you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. It's
9 case IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to greet everybody
11 here, the Defence and the Prosecution and all the accused. We have 22
12 minutes left for the counsel of Mr. Prlic, and then follows Mr. Stojic.
13 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, everybody. Can we
14 please move into private session.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS CR [Continued]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.
18 [Private session]
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2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session now.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has just
5 informed me they have no redirect.
6 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I thank you, Witness, for having
7 come here to testify and to enlighten the Judges on the events that took
8 place in your municipality. I want to express to you my best wishes for
9 your safe trip back and for your further political and professional
10 activities.
11 We are taking a 20-minute break now. And before the witness is
12 ushered out, we need to lower the blinds.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
17 [The witness enters court]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're resuming our
19 work.
20 Welcome, Mr. Mundis. I see you for the first time this year.
21 Happy new year to you.
22 We are now in open session. Can we move into private session,
23 please.
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Witness CS, I'm going to talk to you first or ask you some
24 questions about events in 1990, and I'd like to focus your attention on
25 that year if we could do so. Can you tell us just very quickly, sir,
Page 12017
1 about the political situation in the city of Mostar in 1990?
2 A. In the course of 1990, sometime in the middle of that year there
3 were intensive electoral meetings and rallies in Mostar and preparations
4 for the elections. I was in the party of reformist forces, member of the
5 board in Mostar, and member of the Central Board for Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina.
7 Q. I'd like to turn your attention, sir, to the autumn of 1990. Do
8 you recall in particular any political rallies that you attended in the
9 autumn of 1990? And if you do recall, can you please tell us about any
10 such rallies that you attended.
11 A. I attended only the rally held by the Reformist Party some time in
12 autumn, and after that rally I was astonished by certain things that I had
13 heard, namely related to the agreement between Milosevic and Tudjman about
14 the division of Bosnia.
15 Q. Sir, can you perhaps elaborate a little bit on this agreement that
16 you've just told us about. Do you recall who the speakers were at this
17 rally?
18 A. I can't remember the sequence of the speakers. There was
19 Prime Minister Ante Markovic, then Mr. Osman Pirija, and some other
20 speakers whom I can't recall at the moment.
21 Q. What about this agreement as you put it, this agreement between
22 Milosevic and Tudjman about the division of Bosnia? Can you recall any of
23 the specifics about what was said concerning this agreement that you've
24 told us about?
25 A. It was mentioned that information had leaked that they had agreed
Page 12018
1 the carving up of Bosnia in a place called Karadjordjevo, and then later
2 in some places around Mostar, in Jablanica specifically, voters were told
3 that if they opt for one of the nationalist or nation-based parties on one
4 side there will be Chetnik guns trained at them, and on the other side
5 Ustasha guns, cannons.
6 Q. Sir, moving now into the time period in 1992, can you tell us
7 which ethnic groups were living in the city of Mostar?
8 A. In 1992. 1992 was already a year when the residents of Mostar
9 were getting rather nervous and anxious, and there were Serbs, Bosniaks,
10 and Croats living there in proportions recorded during the census.
11 Q. At that point in time, sir, again 1992, were there any military
12 forces in the city of Mostar?
13 A. Early in the year there were Serb forces or, rather, the army, the
14 Yugoslav People's Army, as early as 1991, the troops that had withdrawn
15 from Croatia, and they were largely the cause of anxiety in town. And
16 they stayed, if I remember well, until end of June 1992.
17 Q. And, Witness CS, what happened -- as you've said they remained
18 until the end of June 1992. Can you tell us a little bit more about what
19 happened when the JNA left Mostar at the end of 1992?
20 A. That happened suddenly. I didn't expect it to happen that way. I
21 had expected that there would be fighting and that those forces of the JNA
22 transformed into the forces of the Republika Srpska would stay on to fight
23 in the Neretva River valley. However, they retreated instead from Bijelo
24 Polje, from Mount Velez, down to the border from the southern-most
25 elevation of Velez and down to Stolac. I think they retreated in keeping
Page 12019
1 with an initiative from the centre and from the lines that were controlled
2 by the army of the BH.
3 Q. Now, Witness, when -- when the JNA, as you put it, retreated, what
4 happened to their military equipment?
5 A. From what I know, and I was unable to go and check, but I heard on
6 the news bulletin that they left behind some 10 or 20 tanks and some heavy
7 weaponry such as cannons, and I don't know what else. For a while the
8 army kept it and then it was turned over to the HVO. I don't know if
9 there was some pressure involved or not.
10 Q. Now, sir, when you say the army kept it, what army are you
11 referring to, and can you tell us what time period this hand-over
12 occurred?
13 A. If we are talking about the same point in time when Serbs had left
14 Bijelo Polje, it was the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was the
15 name of the army. But in fact it was a force that was trying to protect
16 the Bosniak people on the eastern side of the Neretva River. They
17 controlled that territory throughout, and they had better access to the
18 weapons left behind by the JNA than those on the west bank, and physically
19 they moved in on -- on those weapons. They got to them first.
20 Q. And, sir, what time period are we talking about where you say they
21 got to those weapons first?
22 A. Maybe within some five, 10 days in June. In the last 10 days of
23 June, I believe.
24 Q. In which year, sir?
25 A. 1992.
Page 12020
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I believe for the next series of
2 questions it would be appropriate for us to go into private session,
3 please.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.
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17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,
19 Mr. President.
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just draw attention to a miscalculation in
21 the English translation in the previous document. In the first line,
22 in "Flats," the total is indicated here as 2.121, whereas it should be
23 21.211. Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't see this figure here.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's only in the English version. It's the
Page 12028
1 document 225.
2 THE WITNESS: I am just looking document -- I'm just looking --
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's only in the English version. It's a
4 misprint in the English version. So it cannot be an issue. It's an
5 obvious, obvious mistake.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Judge Trechsel.
7 Q. Sir, let me ask you now some questions about the time period in --
8 in and after July 1992, during the remainder of 1992, that is, the second
9 half of 1992. Can you tell us a little bit about what the situation was
10 like in Mostar in terms of relations between the various groups of
11 people?
12 A. [Interpretation] It was a period when I ceased to work in the
13 civilian protection. I stayed at home. I tried to find some other
14 occupation by which I could help myself and the people around me, not to
15 be a completely lost man, and I worked for a time for the International
16 Committee of Salvation from New York on food production programmes and
17 food supplies to the population. I worked as a volunteer. I had a
18 computer at home, so I was able to do that kind of thing fairly simply.
19 So that's what I did. I found it rather satisfying, because food needed
20 to be produced and needed to be supplied. So I spent most of the time
21 after that in my flat trying to survive in the circumstances without any
22 other separate tasks or duties.
23 After that, we saw a polarisation, the Bosniaks on one side, the
24 Croats on the other. And this polarisation of the population resulted
25 from the non-Croat population and intensified until in mid-June 1993 I
Page 12029
1 fled from Mostar with my family.
2 Q. Sir, Witness CS, we'll get to 1993 in a few moments and talk about
3 that in greater detail, but again I'd like to ask you about the situation
4 in the summer, late summer of 1992.
5 Were people still coming into the city of Mostar, or were people
6 leaving the city of Mostar, or was the population stable during that time
7 period, the summer of 1992?
8 A. I don't know how to call this. In my home in 1992, I think before
9 I was expelled from the -- or dismissed from the civilian protection, my
10 relatives from Gacko arrived and they were expelled as refugees, and they
11 reached Mostar. They arrived in Mostar. So from that point of view, at
12 the beginning that was possible, and this indicated that relations between
13 the Croats -- well, it's difficult to say Croats because the Croats are
14 quite normal people just like anybody else, but between the forces that
15 led the operations and -- or, rather, the Croat-led forces and the Bosniak
16 led section were not very tense. The tensions were to escalate later on.
17 And people did come in from areas which were Serb-controlled areas. They
18 came into Mostar less and less because there were less and less
19 inhabitants in those areas. They had already been cleansed.
20 Later on we saw this escalation, in the second half of the year
21 mostly, and there were various echelons, if I can use the word, echelons
22 or strata of the population which went from house to house clearing up.
23 Not very intensively, but they went to the houses that they thought were
24 more attractive, where they thought they could loot and pilfer and where
25 they might find more valuable goods.
Page 12030
1 Q. At this point --
2 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but this last
3 sentence isn't quite clear. Is the witness referring to 1992 or 1993?
4 Could that be clarified, please?
5 MR. MUNDIS: Precisely my next question.
6 Q. At this point that you're talking about, sir, what time period are
7 you talking about with respect to this looting and pilfering?
8 A. The looting started when the -- when power was handed over to the
9 HVO in Mostar. I personally -- well, this was looting of public property,
10 public premises, company offices with their equipment, and it was on a
11 large scale, and all the companies that had been left were taken over and
12 looted. The HVO or HDZ, whatever you like to call these authorities, I
13 went to see them, and I went to the Sokol enterprise to see what was going
14 on there, and I tried to take part in helping the equipment be returned to
15 the factories, to the Djuro Salaj cotton industry, for instance. This
16 equipment was sent back to them. But access, the access of Bosniaks to
17 enterprises which were taken over by the HVO -- HVO was limited or
18 restricted so that only those people who needed to could take part in the
19 work of those enterprises and companies.
20 But I know that the compressor manufacturing company was looted.
21 All the equipment was taken away. I don't have evidence, but I heard
22 tell -- am I speaking too fast? I haven't got any evidence as to who took
23 what, but I do know that compressor equipment was divided by the people in
24 power. I certainly couldn't have done anything about it.
25 So just those two examples indicate that there was indeed looting
Page 12031
1 going on as a systematic way of operating in the area. [In English]
2 Excuse me.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You're referring to the
4 looting. Now, we as the Judges would like to know whether the looting was
5 done on an individual basis, by individuals, whether it was organised or
6 whether it was looting and pilfering resulting from decisions taken by
7 people in power, or was this linked to requisitioning, for example, in
8 view of the prevailing situation and the state of war? So could you be
9 more specific and tell us whether this looting and fraudulent
10 misappropriation was conducted by individuals, or was it very structured
11 and organised by someone?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the extent that I was able to see
13 it and experience it, but I didn't see any official document as to who is
14 doing what and who is responsible for which enterprise. But from what I
15 saw I thought it was organised looting, because never again after that did
16 I hear anything or see anything of about 35.000 compressors that were in
17 stock in the factory. And also in stock in the aluminum factory there was
18 rather a large quantity that remained after the Serbs left the area. I
19 don't know where that ended up. One person could not have simply moved it
20 away. It could have been moved by an organisation that was behind it. It
21 cannot be explained in any other way. But which organisation is a matter
22 for inquiry, for investigation. I cannot tell you anything reliable as to
23 whom. But the factories I'm talking about were in that period of the war
24 mainly under the control of the HVO.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are referring to 35.000
Page 12032
1 compressors, and you say that it must have been organised.
2 We, the Judges, we want to know by whom it was organised. Who
3 can afford to remove 35.000 compressors? To do what with them? To sell
4 them to another country, to sell them on a parallel market? There must
5 be a basis for that. Could you clarify who could have been behind the
6 looting?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be specific. I can tell
8 you only in principle that I have never seen a formal decision about that,
9 and I was never present when such a decision was shown. But I worked in
10 the economy before the war, and I was familiar with the situation in the
11 economy, and I know that a large amount of compressors had been
12 manufactured and destined for the Chinese market. I was surprised that it
13 was supposed to be sold to China but that's the way it was. And there was
14 also aluminum in Goc [phoen] in stock. They had a ready buyer. It was
15 not a problem to sell them. But who gave the orders to collect it all and
16 remove it, I don't know. I have my speculations, but that is not
17 evidence. So I would rather not name any names.
18 MR. MUNDIS:
19 Q. Let me turn to a different subject, Witness CS. I'd like to ask
20 you about, again in the time period July through December 1992, about
21 vacant apartments or houses in the city of Mostar. Were you aware of the
22 existence of vacant flats or houses in the town of Mostar -- city of
23 Mostar, in the second half of 1992?
24 A. I had to know because I had the list before me, and there were
25 vacant apartments on my own landing. People had left and the apartments
Page 12033
1 were vacant. And people from Mostar, from other neighbourhoods, moved in
2 on them and tried to requisition them simply as private persons.
3 Q. Was there any official action taken by any governmental or
4 regulatory agency in order to assign this housing to people?
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7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll move into private session.
8 Otherwise we'll spend all our time making redactions.
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25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
Page 12065
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day
2 of January, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.
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