Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12608

1 Monday, 22 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

8 Case IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 On this Monday, the 22nd of January, 2007, I'd like to say good

11 afternoon to everybody in the courtroom, the accused, the Defence counsel,

12 the Prosecution, and I'd like to welcome especially Mr. Pusic back to the

13 courtroom. He's with us again.

14 Having said that, I'm going to give the floor to the registrar for

15 a few IC numbers.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The OTP has submitted a list of documents to be

17 tendered through Witness CU; that list will be Exhibit IC 230. The OTP

18 also submitted a response to Defence exhibits tendered through Witness CU;

19 that will be given Exhibit number IC 231. A list submitted by 2D for

20 documents tendered through Witness CV shall be given Exhibit number IC

21 232. The OTP submitted a response to 3D objections regarding OTP exhibits

22 tendered through Witness CS; that shall be given Exhibit IC 233. And 3D

23 submitted a response -- to OTP's response to 3D's objections to the OTP

24 list of exhibits tendered through Witness CT, that shall be given IC 234.

25 Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 12609

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

2 I understand that the Defence would like to say a few words for --

3 Mr. Karnavas.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

5 Honours.

6 Being very mindful of our precious time with respect to

7 preliminary matters or other matters, I just wish to bring to the Court's

8 attention that we would like to schedule a 65 ter meeting with the Judges

9 so as to not take up any courtroom time and so we can get on with the

10 business of taking the evidence from the witnesses.

11 The purposes with respect to the Prosecution reply that was filed

12 on 18 January, 2007, I don't want to go into the merits of it. However,

13 we do believe that there are a couple of matters that deserve attention.

14 I believe it would take 15 to 20 minutes, perhaps longer, to explain;

15 that's why I don't want to go into them. But I do believe that it's

16 necessary for us to be heard because of a variety of issues raised by the

17 Prosecution.

18 Incidentally, while it's titled "Reply," it's actually a leave for

19 reply, although the title does not suggest that. In keeping with the

20 Court's practice, I would urge the Prosecution in future to title it

21 properly, that is, a leave for reply and not a reply.

22 There's one other matter, Your Honour - and I think that Mr.

23 Murphy wanted to raise it - with regard to the atmospherics in the

24 courtroom, and he's more prepared to address that issue.

25 MR. MURPHY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon.

Page 12610

1 Your Honour, it's a matter of concern for the Defence - and I

2 don't know to what extent for the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution - that

3 there has been a considerable incidence of people feeling unwell after and

4 during sessions in courtroom III. One incident that I need not refer to

5 now specifically was followed on Thursday by an episode where clearly the

6 witness felt unwell, as did three or four members of the Defence bar. In

7 fact, if the hearing had gone on for more than another half hour or so, we

8 might have had to leave.

9 Your Honour, I know that Your Honour did indicate some time ago

10 that there were concerns with the ventilation system, and we don't know to

11 what extent that that has been remedied or is in the process of being

12 remedied. We have made some check with counsel in the Popovic case who

13 are experiencing many of the same problems during their time in courtroom

14 III. So, Your Honour, we would like to suggest that further inquiries be

15 made with a view to taking some action, because clearly, if any members of

16 the Trial Chamber were also to become ill or members of the Prosecution,

17 then there would be other problems, too.

18 Your Honour, in addition to that, we do feel that it would be

19 appropriate for proper information to be given to the accused and to

20 others in courtroom about the extent of any medical risk that there may

21 be. I, for one, would certainly like my medical advisors to be aware of

22 what exactly is going on, and I would ask the Trial Chamber to consider

23 this as an urgent matter. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Murphy, for

25 intervening. As you know, last time, I asked the registrar to alert the

Page 12611

1 higher authorities with respect to the ventilation of courtroom III, and

2 the registrar has just told me that we are expecting a response tomorrow,

3 at around 11.30.

4 But independently of that question linked to ventilation and so

5 on, I personally looked into the incident in the courtroom and what kind

6 of medical implications that has, and I spoke to the Tribunal's physician

7 a few days ago to see whether he had the necessary cardiac assistance

8 equipment, and whether he could bring the apparatus in, as you do in

9 aeroplanes or public places generally, to be able to provide assistance if

10 anybody has a heart seizure. And I sent the physician a memo in that

11 respect but have not, unfortunately, yet received an answer from him.

12 As a few weeks have gone by, I am going to also inform, or have

13 him inform the authorities with respect to consequences on health, because

14 we have -- especially with regard to the audio system, because we all do

15 listen, have our headsets on, and I'd like to see if there have been any

16 reports, studies, conducted on the effects that sound coming in through

17 your ears all the time might have on the brain, on the creation of tumours

18 or anything like that. But, as I say, I haven't received a response like

19 that, so I am waiting for specific responses or answers to those types of

20 questions.

21 Now, if anybody in this courtroom feels unwell, the medical --

22 Tribunal's assistants must come in to help, straight away, with all the

23 instruments necessary to take blood pressure and everything else, in case

24 of a heart attack, in case of somebody losing consciousness. It's up to

25 the administration and the authorities to bear that in mind. Cases like

Page 12612

1 that can happen, and we need medical assistance with all the equipment

2 straight away. This causes a great deal of stress, first of all, on the

3 witness, on everybody else, and I'm sure we all have personal experience

4 and know very well what this stress situation can cause.

5 So, Mr. Murphy, thank you for taking the floor and raising that

6 issue. It will allow me, once again, to contact the administration and

7 discuss fundamental issues like that.

8 A few weeks ago, let me recall, there was a witness who wasn't

9 feeling very well. He was feeling poorly, and I remember that there was

10 nobody in the medical department to help him, to come to his aid. So once

11 we -- if we work until 7.00 p.m., there would have to be a permanent

12 physician or some medical staff on duty for as long as the court is in

13 session. But, as I say, I will take all those matters up with the

14 administration.

15 Now, with respect to what Mr. Karnavas said and the need for a 65

16 ter meeting, which would take 20 minutes or so, I can but subscribe -- I

17 cannot but subscribe to that. I agree that that would be a good idea when

18 we have a space, a free space in between witnesses or whatever. So we're

19 going to study that, look into the matter, so that at the earliest

20 opportunity we can devote 20 to 30 minutes for a 65 ter meeting, to allow

21 the Defence to intervene.

22 So, Mr. Karnavas, rest assured that we will deal with that, and

23 I'll let you know when those 20 or 30 minutes will be available. I think

24 that the 65 ter meeting, as far as I'm concerned, should be held in the

25 presence of the accused. So we can't have it in a normal sitting. And

Page 12613

1 since the courtrooms are taken up with trials almost round the clock, then

2 this meeting will have to take place and be incorporated into our

3 schedule. But I hope we'll find 20 to 30 minutes at the earliest

4 opportunity.

5 Having said that, we're going to have the witness brought in to

6 continue the testimony. We would like to have the blinds lowered for us

7 to be able to introduce the witness.

8 Now, as far as this particular witness is concerned, I remember

9 that Mr. Praljak had two more questions to ask him, and the other Defence

10 teams had some questions as well.

11 Before I give the floor to Mr. Praljak, I myself would like to ask

12 the witness two questions, and that perhaps will allow Mr. Praljak to see

13 how those responses coincide with what he wants to ask him. So having

14 given thought to the matter over the weekend, I came up with two questions

15 that I need to ask the witness on the basis of what he testified about

16 last week.

17 In order to save time, I'm going to ask the registrar to have on

18 e-court P 9517. It is the map of Mostar. May we have that brought up on

19 e-court, please.

20 [The witness enters court]


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. You may be

25 seated. I hope that you had a good weekend regardless of the storm.

Page 12614

1 We're continuing your testimony, but rest assured we'll get through the

2 cross-examination by the end of the day.

3 I have two questions to ask you before I give the floor to

4 Mr. Praljak, who is going to continue with his own questions. For my two

5 questions, I need to have the map of Mostar put up on our screens. And it

6 was P 9517. May we zoom in on that, please.

7 Witness, we are in open session. We have the map of Mostar, and

8 with your electronic pen, would you place a cross on the building of the

9 bank which the sniper that you saw was located in. So could you show me

10 where that building was, the building with the sniper. Put a cross by the

11 building or on the building.

12 I don't think the map is detailed enough for you to be able to

13 localise it, is it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not that it's not

15 precise, but there are a lot of new streets. I can't make out where it is

16 here. We have Zrinski, the Zrinski park here, and the bank is next to the

17 park, alongside the Zrinski park. So if this is the crossroads, then it

18 should be somewhere here, the bank building.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the building housing the bank

20 where you saw the sniper is located on the point you have just marked for

21 us on the map.

22 Now, with that same pen, would you give us the separation line on

23 the 10th of May, 1993, the separation line between the HVO and the ABiH,

24 to the best of your knowledge, if you can do that. If not, never mind.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This street, Aleksa Santica Street,

Page 12615

1 right up to Crnica; then across Crnica, all this was the separation line,

2 right down the Bulevar to Donja Mahala.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, the side of

4 town where the HVO was, put a 1 for the HVO and a 2 where the BH army

5 positions were. So 1 for HVO; 2 for ABiH.

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Mr. Registrar, may we have an IC number for this document, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 235, Your

10 Honours.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Now, my second question has to do with the document that had an IC

13 number and was returned to the Prosecutor. So may we have on e-court the

14 drawing of the Vranica building, the sketch of the Vranica building. May

15 we have that up on our screens again, please.

16 Mr. Mundis, do you remember the IC number, or perhaps Mr. Bos

17 does, because the registrar cannot find this IC number. We don't have it

18 to hand.

19 MR. BOS: It would have been IC 229, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC 229. Right. Thank you.

21 MR. BOS: Your Honours, just maybe if I can assist. This was

22 written on a hard copy paper and so there's no electronic version of this,

23 unless it was scanned by the registry. I don't have it. It should be in

24 the possession of the registry.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can place that piece

Page 12616

1 of paper on the ELMO, then, the hard copy paper. We don't seem to have

2 it, though. The problem is that the hard copy paper -- we haven't got the

3 hard copy paper here now.

4 But anyway, sir, based on your recollections, you drew a sketch of

5 the building that was divided into two, two parts of the building, and you

6 were explaining to us that one could go from one building to the other,

7 passing through a corridor linking the two buildings. I remember thinking

8 back that you also drew two other buildings further up on the page, and I

9 seem to remember seeing on that sketch a building where it said

10 "Policije," "Police."

11 Now, to the best of your recollection, next to the headquarters,

12 did the police have a station?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was police station number 1.

14 Number 1 police station, that's what it was it.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. It was the number 1

16 police station.

17 Now, to your knowledge, on the 9th of May when the attack took

18 place, as far as you know, were there any Croats who were detained in that

19 number 1 police station?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How do you mean "detained,"

21 incarcerated? They were there on duty.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, there were duty policemen.

23 But in that building, on the police premises, were there any prisoners,

24 any Croatian prisoners?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know about

Page 12617

1 that.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. That was the only

3 other question that I wanted to ask you.

4 Counsel Alaburic.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you. Since we

6 still see the map of Mostar on our screens, and in view of your question

7 about the separation line on the 10th of May, 1993, I think that it would

8 be useful in order to establish the facts or alleged facts mentioned in

9 the indictment that we should define what the separation line was before

10 the conflict on the 9th of May or, rather, on the 8th of May, 1993, where

11 the separation line was on the 8th of May, 1993; in other words, to see

12 whether that separation line shifted because of the events that took place

13 on the 9th of May, for example.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, when I asked you to

15 draw in the separation line, was it the separation line before the 9th of

16 May attack? So the day before is the 8th of May. Now, the separation

17 line that you drew in here, is that the one that corresponds to the

18 separation line of the 8th of May, 1993?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The line was always there. It never

20 moved.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Mr. Praljak, you have the floor to finish up with the questions

23 you wanted to ask this witness.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 I'll be brief.

Page 12618

1 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

2 [Continued]

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. As we have the map up on our screens, I too need to use it. Could

6 you mark in the bank building. Now, look at the corner, a little to the

7 right and a little further up from what you indicated. The bank was a

8 corner building and was exactly between those two streets, was it not,

9 from this right hand -- it's a triangle. Is what I'm saying correct?

10 A. Well, I can't do that on this map.

11 Q. You will remember that the bank was a corner building with two

12 streets running either side. So the corner to the right, opposite the

13 park, you see the triangle opposite the park?

14 A. Is this where you mean?

15 Q. Was the bank between those two streets? If so, then mark it in

16 there, please.

17 A. Like that, yes.

18 Q. Do you remember that that was the bank building?

19 A. It's a little difficult on this map, but that's the position of

20 the bank.

21 Q. The corner, the actual corner with the two streets going off it.

22 So this first location -- so can you put the number 3, number 3 by the

23 bank, this corner bank building where you say the sniper shot from.

24 A. You want a point 3?

25 Q. No, the number 3. Number 3, please. Place a 3 on that spot.

Page 12619

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Put a number 3. We can't

2 see that that's 3.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is the number 3. But I

4 don't know where else to write it.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Write it further up. So this is the -- the first point that you

7 indicated was the square, which is today called, I think, Spanish square,

8 with the gymnasium, with the secondary school, et cetera; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, Vranica you indicated next to Crnica with a number 2, but

11 actually it goes downwards from the square. So could you put that right?

12 It goes from Hit towards Santiceva Street; is that correct? Is what I'm

13 saying correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. It seems that the witness is

16 Mr. Praljak. Who answers the question that the President has put to the

17 witness? I think we have to it take what the witness tells us and not

18 dictate the witness what he should say and what he should mark. I do not

19 see any value in that. It does not bring any knowledge by the witness,

20 from the witness, to the Chamber.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Your Honour, with all due respect, I

22 think he's leading the witness, and he's assisting. That's what

23 cross-examination is. You know, it's a declarative statement with an

24 inflection, one fact at a time, in a sequential order. I believe that's

25 what Mr. Praljak is trying to do; otherwise, it might take forever. But

Page 12620

1 he is leading, and I think as long as the gentleman --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Praljak would like

3 you to indicate, maybe by number 4, the place on the map where there was

4 the headquarters of the 4th Corps.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have not been

6 leading the witness. I only asked him whether what I am saying is correct

7 and I'm helping him. The witness can now say what I'm saying is not

8 correct.

9 Since two parallel --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, based on the plan, can

11 you please tell us, where was the headquarters of the 4th Corps? Where

12 was that building? We saw its photo. You were there when you were

13 arrested. Where was that building? Where is it on this map?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very difficult for me to find

15 my bearings on this map, and it is impossible for me to find it on the

16 map.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can I maybe assist the

18 witness, Your Honours, by asking him a few additional questions, to lead

19 him in the right direction.

20 Q. Was that building maybe here where it says street of Kralj

21 Tomislav, King Tomislav Street, the former avenue Bila Strelcevina? Do

22 you see that upper road? Today it is called King Tomislav's road and it

23 used to be called the avenue. Is that the avenue?

24 A. If the name is King Tomislav, it used to be avenue.

25 Q. Yes, it was the avenue. Is it then correct that slightly below

Page 12621

1 the street whose name is King Tomislav's street, and above that it says

2 Strelcevina, so just below that there was the Vranica building.

3 A. As far as I can tell on this map, I can see the streets of King

4 Tomislav and Stjepan Radic. I believe that somewhere here on the corner

5 there should be that building, the building called Vranica.

6 Q. Can you then mark that on the map.

7 A. I believe that the Vranica building should be have been here on

8 this map.

9 Q. Very well, then. Can you put a number 4 next to that.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I will have only a few more

13 questions while I'm cross-examining. Can we have 3D 0076.

14 Q. Please tell me, from the Mostar hotel you were taken out by

15 UNPROFOR; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it correct that before you were taken out there was an order by

18 Arif Pasalic --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give a new IC

20 number to the map which has now been modified. There are three or four

21 markings that have been added. Can we have the IC number for this?

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number IC 236, Your Honours.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have 3D

24 00676.

25 Q. Before UNPROFOR came to pick you up at the Mostar Hotel, did Arif

Page 12622

1 Pasalic issue an order for you to leave that hotel?

2 A. No.

3 Q. He didn't.

4 A. No.

5 Q. You have told us that, irrespective of political agreements or

6 agreements between the leaders, that lower levels of command would not

7 always obey command; is that correct?

8 A. I said that some negotiations were taking place in offices, but

9 those agreements were never implemented on the ground.

10 Q. For example, if an order came from Arif Pasalic, was that order

11 always implemented in the way it was it issued, or were there diverging

12 opinions by various individuals?

13 A. When the UNPROFOR came to take us out of the Mostar Hotel, Arif

14 Pasalic came as well. As far as I know, and I was on the line, we had not

15 received any orders or commands. They simply came in front of the Mostar

16 Hotel with an APC to take us out of that.

17 Q. In other words, Arif Pasalic, the commander of the 4th Corps, had

18 to arrive with UNPROFOR for you to get out; is that correct?

19 A. I don't know how things transpired. I only now that when we were

20 on the front line I had seen a light, and I saw APCs in front of the

21 hotel. And Arif Pasalic told me that the politicians agreed we had to

22 leave the hotel.

23 Q. Can we now look at this document. Are you aware of the fact that

24 in the month of April, when negotiations were taking place about the

25 functioning of Mostar in the future, do you know that General Pellnas also

Page 12623

1 participated in those negotiations?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You didn't hear anything. Can we look at two items in this

4 document. Ms. Nozica showed you a document which was a joint statement

5 for public. This is 3D 00676.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D 00676, and it is not on

7 e-court. Can I have it on the ELMO. It has been translated into

8 English. I don't know why it isn't in the e-court. I have an English

9 copy for the Judges, and while this is being placed on the ELMO -- now we

10 have it. Why are you saying that it's not in e-court? We don't have to

11 have it on the ELMO. It's on the e-court.

12 Can we please look at item 1. There are two public statements.

13 One was issued on the 20th, the other on the 21st, and they differ in

14 their items 1, 4, and 5.

15 Q. It says here -- can you please read, Witness. On the 20th of

16 April, 1993, with the mediation of members of the UN, representatives of

17 the HVO and ABiH met. Is it what it says here?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In other words, the UNPROFOR was incorporated into the attempt to

20 resolve the situation in Mostar. Would you agree with that?

21 A. I don't know that. I only know that they came to take us out of

22 the Mostar Hotel.

23 Q. Can I now have item 4 on the screen, please. In item 4, it says:

24 "The transporters of the Spanish Battalion of the UN should be

25 placed at crossroads by the Catholic church, by the medical centre, and by

Page 12624

1 the department store Hit. They will control the separation line together

2 with the check-point command."

3 Does it say that here?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It says here, then, that the separation line already existed and

6 how it would be controlled. Thank you very much. I have two more short

7 questions.

8 You said that you remained with the SIS until April; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you remain with the SIS because you believed that there would

12 be no conflict? You stayed there until the moment you believed that there

13 wouldn't be any conflict between the HVO and the BiH army.

14 A. In April it was already clear that there would not be the case,

15 but in SIS there were people -- the deputy of Brana Kvesic came from

16 Sarajevo; he was a Muslim, and there were a few more Muslims in the SIS.

17 And every time I would ask them what to do, what would happen to us, and

18 as the situation became worse, I thought that they knew better than me,

19 because I did not have any position. Then I realised that they wanted to

20 save their hide and nothing else, and that they did not have the correct

21 answer. And that's when I joined the army.

22 Q. During the conflict in Mostar, before, during and after, your wife

23 was in Split.

24 A. Not my wife, my sister. She was there until 1992 when she

25 returned.

Page 12625

1 Q. Was it 1992 or 1993?

2 A. She got married in 1993.

3 Q. But you told us last time that once -- at the moment when you

4 returned to the BiH army, that your sister was in Split. How long did she

5 stay in Split for?

6 A. She was in Split during the conflict with the Serbs, and she

7 returned before the conflict between the army and the HVO started.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

10 Honours.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The next Defence team, please.

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. I'm also going to start with the month of April, 1993, when you

17 left SIS. Can you please tell us more precisely what the date was when

18 you left SIS?

19 A. I can't give you the exact date, but it was between the 15th and

20 the 17th, I would say.

21 Q. Did you immediately go to your, as you put it, main unit, the 2nd

22 Battalion, or did you maybe spend a few days resting?

23 A. I joined my unit immediately.

24 Q. At that moment, which is the 17th of April, the latest, where was

25 the 2nd Battalion deployed?

Page 12626

1 A. The 2nd Battalion was in Vranica, Zenica, and Donja Mahala. At

2 that time we were in the Hotel Mostar. In other words, some of the troops

3 of the 2nd Battalion were billeted in the Mostar Hotel.

4 Q. That part of the 2nd Battalion that was in the Mostar Hotel, was

5 it there when you joined your battalion or did you come to the hotel

6 together?

7 A. No, it was always in the Mostar Hotel.

8 Q. To the President's question about having received an order to

9 attack the HVO, you answered that you never received such an order; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Did you ever receive an order to defend yourselves from a possible

13 HVO attack?

14 A. You're asking me -- your question put to me has to do with some

15 paperwork. I wouldn't know anything about that. We were in the Mostar

16 Hotel. We were there to guard it, to defend the hotel, to defend

17 ourselves. You're asking me about some paperwork that I don't know

18 anything about. There may have been such papers, but I wouldn't know. I

19 was on the ground. I did not have any knowledge about that. I did not

20 shuffle papers. I was a soldier.

21 Q. Let's put papers aside. We'll come back to them again. Did you

22 receive any oral order about some activities that you were supposed to

23 undertake in order to defend yourselves from the HVO?

24 A. Of course. When we were in the hotel we were deployed in a way to

25 be able to defend ourselves from the HVO.

Page 12627

1 Q. Can we now look at the order of your commander, Midhat Hujdur,

2 that is, a document that was prepared by the Prosecution for your

3 examination-in-chief. It is in the Prosecutor's bundle and the number is

4 P 01970.

5 Witness, could we please look at the order to see whether you're

6 familiar with the contents of this order.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

8 part of the order under 1.2, at the bottom of the document, or maybe we

9 can show the witness the set of documents that were prepared for him as a

10 hard copy. Maybe it will be easier for the witness to follow the text on

11 the paper.

12 Q. Under 1.2, Witness, it says:

13 "The 2nd Battalion is tasked with manning defence positions in

14 their area of responsibility. They have to close the access in the Cekrk

15 sector, and they have to take up defence lines on the Cekrk highway, axis

16 Semovac, Bulevar, Dr. Mujic Street -- Safet Mujic Street," if I can read

17 this well, "the bank (new) the Vaha cafe, the dispensary of the garrison,

18 the old hospital, the dairy, Centar II."

19 Witness, this line that has just been mentioned and described,

20 does it correspond completely to the separation line that you drew on the

21 map at the request of the Presiding Judge, or does it differ from that

22 line?

23 A. It differs, but I'm not familiar with this document.

24 Q. How does it differ? Let me put it this way: This line, as

25 described herein as opposed to the one that you marked on the map, does it

Page 12628

1 go into the area that was under the control of the HVO?

2 A. I can't answer your question because I -- because I would like to

3 answer all your questions correctly.

4 Before the 9th of May, before the conflict, there was an invisible

5 line, which still exists in Mostar even today. What you have read out to

6 me has to do with the positions of the 2nd Battalion that had to be taken

7 for defence, which is logical to me.

8 Q. Witness, let's move on and let's see whether you will find logic

9 in some other things as well. It says further on in this order: "In

10 depth of the line, block the forces of the HVO and neutralise them."

11 And further on, could you please pay attention to the following

12 part.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Can we please get the B/C/S version

14 on the screen, because the Judges have the document in the Prosecutor's

15 bundle.

16 Q. The last three lines, Witness. We're still on page 1. On the

17 previous page. Previous page, please.

18 At the bottom of that page, the last three lines: "Some of the

19 troops from the 4th Company should be sent to the command of the 41st

20 Motorised Brigade in order to reinforce the defence, to step on the

21 Defence."

22 Tell me, the command of the 41st Motorised Brigade was in Vranica

23 wasn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Please tell me, when the troops from the area of Crnica were sent

Page 12629

1 to Vranica, would these troops have to go through this territory that was

2 under the control of the HVO? This is a simple question, isn't it?

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the first page

4 back on the screen. Thank you.

5 Q. Please look at this sentence: "Some of the troops had to start

6 moving from their area of responsibility towards Vranica." Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would they have to go through the territory under the control of

10 the HVO in order to do that?

11 A. It could not have been under the control of the HVO.

12 Q. Sir, you remember where you put Vranica on the May. If you draw a

13 diagonal line from the positions that were held by the 2nd Battalion

14 towards Vranica, would that be at the territory under the control of the

15 HVO or not?

16 A. At that time it was still not under the control of the HVO.

17 Q. It was under the control of BiH army?

18 A. It was not under anybody's control. It was no-man's land. I

19 apologise. I was a foot soldier. Between the HVO and the BiH territories

20 there were no bags, there were no trenches. You could move freely around

21 the town, in inverted commas. In the evening everybody would go to their

22 own lines, but during the day they didn't do that. During the day you

23 could freely go to the 4th Battalion. There were no soldiers, there was

24 nothing. And when we're talking about the period of time after we left

25 the Mostar Hotel, it was the UNPROFOR that manned the crossroads. And

Page 12630

1 everybody was free to move around the town freely.

2 Q. Can you explain to us how come, then, on the 19th of April, 1993,

3 your commander issued an order according to which you were supposed to

4 reach certain lines, block HVO forces, neutralise the HVO, cross an area

5 that was not under your control? How do you understand the order? Was it

6 an order to take over certain territory or something else?

7 A. Well, it can't be an order to take over territory, because this is

8 the line and we were to defend that line.

9 Q. Let's have a look how you defended that line and look at the next

10 sentence also on the first page.

11 "In further action to launch an attack from the wing along the

12 axis of Semovac, Podhum, Balinovac, and the other axis, Centar II;

13 Rudnik. Part of the forces should be separated for taking control of Hum

14 hill."

15 May we have your comments on these indubitable orders for attack?

16 A. I can't.

17 Q. Now, let's go on to point 1.3, the next page. Unfortunately, I

18 don't have time to look at this document in its entirety with you, so I

19 will restrict myself to just parts of the document and the portion

20 referring to the 2nd Battalion.

21 In point 1.3, and this paragraph relates to the 3rd Battalion, in

22 the middle it says, and I quote:

23 "Part of the forces, 30 men, with weapons should be transferred to

24 the right side and placed under the command of the commander of the 2nd

25 Battalion."

Page 12631

1 Can you explain to us whether that means that some of the men from

2 the left bank of the Neretva River would be transferred to the right bank

3 of the Neretva and placed under the command of the commander of your

4 battalion? Is that what it means? Does that mean -- what we've just read

5 out, does that mean that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know if that ever happened?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. All right. Let's move on. In point 1.4, it says the following:

10 "The Nevesinje Battalion is placed under the command of the

11 commander of the 3rd Battalion, and they will receive their assignments

12 from him, and part of the manpower, 30 fighters with weapons, should be

13 transferred to the right bank and deployed in the Djacki centre and

14 economics school where they will take up their defence positions."

15 Tell me, Witness, do you know whether these fighters of the BH

16 army were transferred from the left bank to the right bank?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell us, please, were those soldiers in fact deployed in the

19 pupils centre, or Djacki Dom, and economics school?

20 A. Well, it says that in the order, but in the pupils centre there

21 were refugees from Gacko and Nevesinje and others, and the command of the

22 4th Corps was guarded from there.

23 Q. Witness, just part of your answer has appeared on the transcript,

24 that there were refugees from Gacko and Nevesinje and that the command of

25 the 4th Corps -- that the 4th Corps command was secured from that post.

Page 12632

1 Can you repeat your answer again, that there were policemen there, that

2 there were people who were armed, for the record?

3 A. Yes, there were armed people there.

4 Q. And what about the police? Were there police forces there?

5 A. Well, I don't know what forces they were, but there were soldiers

6 there.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now let's take a look at paragraph 1.6.

8 You have it up on your screen, and it says: "The MTD," which is the mixed

9 cannon division, "has the assignment of opening fire on targets from

10 present positions which are given by -- targets set by," and it says "NA,"

11 the abbreviation. I'm not quite sure what "NA" stands for. Can I have

12 some assistance? The chief of artillery, I'm told. "... of the 41st

13 Motorised Brigade, and if the need arises, from the demands of the

14 brigade. 82-millimetre mortars from their firing positions should open

15 fire on targets given in the plan, the firing plan, by the chief of

16 artillery of the 41st Motorised Brigade, as well as pursuant to requests

17 from the battalion commander."

18 Now, tell us, Witness, did you know of the existence of a firing

19 plan?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know anything about artillery action, the artillery action

22 of your brigade?

23 A. No, I don't know. I don't think there was any.

24 Q. I didn't understand. Wasn't what?

25 A. There wasn't any artillery fire.

Page 12633

1 Q. You mean there weren't any mortars or other artillery weapons or

2 what?

3 A. No. There was no firing from mortars and any of the other things.

4 Q. When was there no firing?

5 A. Never. The BH army never fired until the 10th of May. That's as

6 long as I was in the command.

7 Q. Well, we'll see about that, in due course.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. I note that in the document, under

9 number 1.6, "MTD" is explained as "motorised tank division." It doesn't

10 make much sense, because motorised tanks -- horse-drawn tanks, I have not

11 heard of. But you have said "mixed cannon --" "mixed cannon" something,

12 which again is a different translation. So I think it would be helpful if

13 we knew what actually the expression in the original refers to.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly request that the English

15 version be placed alongside the B/C/S. Thank you.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Trechsel, in the

17 original the abbreviation is MTD, MTD in the original. My client, who is

18 an expert artilleryman, told me that that was an abbreviation for mixed

19 cannon division or gunner division.

20 Now, with respect to the abbreviation, I think my client is

21 right. We can ask General Petkovic if you need further explanation.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I then -- just to -- [Microphone not

23 activated] make the answer more specific --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I pressed the button. Would the mixture consist,

Page 12634

1 in normal, below 45-degree cannons and the mortars that have the higher

2 angle?

3 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're quite

4 right. That is why it is called mixed, because it can have mortars and

5 guns together. So that would make it mixed, with mortars and cannons.

6 But when there is no -- when the word "mixed" isn't there, then it's just

7 cannon. So this is mixed because it's mortar and cannons or guns

8 conjoined into a unit which is called a division. It is not a divizija,

9 it is a division, with two or three batteries to one division. So it

10 might have a total of not more than 12 artillery pieces.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much. That was quite helpful.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I hate to intervene, but I

14 am looking right now at the CLSS glossary dictionary that's available on

15 the Tribunet, and they have the abbreviation "MTD" as standing for "mixed

16 artillery battalion," which perhaps, under a more NATO terminology, might

17 be more understandable.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I can perhaps fill in by pointing out that what

19 General Petkovic called "division" in German would be "abteilung," a part,

20 and that's normally two or three batteries; a union below the artillery

21 regiment.

22 MR. KOVACIC: But if I may add, in order to avoid future

23 discussion, Your Honours -- [Interpretation] I apologise. Maybe I should

24 move to Croatian.

25 To avoid any future discussion, the suggestions made by my learned

Page 12635

1 colleague Mr. Mundis that we can use NATO terminology, I think, is

2 pointless here, senseless here and in similar cases, because in other

3 trials, many of the terminology from sentences and judgements -- a

4 brigade, for example, when we talk about an HVO brigade or a BH army

5 brigade, that has absolutely nothing to do with the NATO standard brigade

6 composition. And we've seen that there is no correlation at all. So to

7 use NATO terminology wouldn't lead to the correct understanding of the

8 matter in hand.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Witness, let's move on to the order. We come to a relatively very

11 interesting part which concerns you, too, and that is paragraph 1.8. You

12 have it on your screen, and it says:

13 "The MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has the task of

14 taking up positions and defending the old bridge and the newly built

15 bridge at Musala, and part of the forces should launch an attack on the

16 MUP premises of the HZ HB and the police station of Mostar, which should

17 be taken control of and persistently defended. Try to have the Hirurgija

18 building, surgery building, stay within our area. The manpower for

19 launching the attack on the MUP building and police station of Mostar

20 should be kept in readiness in Mostar Hotel."

21 Tell us, please, Witness, you were in Hotel Mostar at the time,

22 were you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell us, were you there on alert, preparing to launch an attack on

25 the MUP building and the police station of Mostar?

Page 12636

1 A. No.

2 Q. Why were you then, there?

3 A. To defend the hotel. Now, I apologise, but I can't understand the

4 purpose of your questions. Judging by you, it would appear that on the

5 9th we attacked the HVO and not that the HVO attacked us, and that we

6 targeted ourselves in the Vranica building. I can't understand your

7 questions and where they're leading at all.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Witness. I'm

9 going to try, like you, to understand the questions being asked. You have

10 in front of you an order which is dated the 19th of April, 1993. Now, the

11 order is entitled "Order for Defence." This order, which is very detailed

12 because it goes on for a number of points, refers to an order that we

13 don't have in front of us from the command of the 4th Corps, which seems

14 to be linked to the general political and military situation of the Mostar

15 municipality. And because a reliable source seems to indicate that the

16 HVO, aided by the Croatian army, is going to attack, then this order, when

17 you look at it, can be read in two ways: You can -- it can be interpreted

18 as the Defence is interpreting it and saying that this is an attack that

19 is being considered in advance. The second reading is that, following an

20 HVO attack, this is a counter-attack.

21 Now, the 19th of April, as counsel has just put to you, you

22 yourself were at the Hotel Mostar. Now, if we look at paragraph 1.8, you

23 were on standby, waiting to launch an attack on the MUP building.

24 This is very simple now. On the 19th of April or the 20th of

25 April, did you, in fact, attack or did you stay in the hotel? It's a very

Page 12637

1 simple question. As far as you remember, what did you do, you yourself,

2 on the 20th of April?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were attacked at the Mostar Hotel

4 and we defended it and us.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you say at no

6 time on the 20th of April did you launch an attack on the MUP building, as

7 it is stated in this order.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We defended ourselves. Not a

9 single unit or company or any single man launched an attack.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just to see clearly, last week I

11 asked you whether your superiors had a meeting with you about a plan of

12 attack, and your answer was to say no, there was no meeting; we received

13 no orders, and whatever else you said. Now, there seems to be a

14 discrepancy between this document, which does seem to be highly precise,

15 and your position when you said that, "We were in the Mostar Hotel and

16 that nobody asked us to attack anything or anyone," and that on the

17 contrary, it was you who were attacked.

18 Now, do you still maintain that position or are you changing your

19 position now? Which is it?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by my position.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Now, I'd like to

22 tell the Defence, if your hypothesis is correct, the order indicates that

23 units are required to send in reports every two hours. So normally, if

24 you did your work properly, you would have to look into the units and see

25 whether reports were indeed seen out every two hours to the 41st Motorised

Page 12638

1 Brigade.

2 So if the order was executed, there should be reports, because the

3 last paragraph of the order indicates this, says that, that the units

4 concerned are required to send in reports every two hours. So if the

5 order was acted upon, then the units in the field were duty-bound to

6 report back every two hours and there must be traces of that.

7 So I'm telling you that as a Judge. This is a question that I, as

8 a Judge, have been asking myself.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This isn't a question that I'm

11 asking Mr. Petkovic. I don't have the right to question Mr. Petkovic.

12 I'm asking counsel, but Mr. Petkovic spontaneously rose to his feet.

13 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we saw the

14 signals table attached to the order which states, on this signals chart or

15 table, that the attack would be launched when the signal is given, and it

16 was Rak 626. That didn't mean that the attack was on the 21st, 22nd or

17 the 25th, but when the signal is given. So the order must be written on

18 the same day that the attack has -- but the attack can take place in 10

19 days' time, once the signal is given, because it says, when you receive

20 the signal Rak 626, you will launch the attack. And that chart is a

21 component part of the order. That is the only way that the witness and

22 counsel can interpret this order. That is the crux of it.

23 So, with all the documents that we have, when the commander of the

24 41st Brigade says, "You receive signal Rak 626, that is when the moment of

25 time has come for the attack to be launched." You don't have to accept my

Page 12639

1 explanation, but I would like to tell you that all the documents we have,

2 which includes the signals chart, the additional orders of the 24th for

3 the armoured company and everything, that is a set of documents comprising

4 this one single order. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Petkovic.

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to explain as

7 well? When we questioned the previous witness, we handed in Arif

8 Pasalic's order on the basis of which this particular order was made by

9 commander Midhat Hujdur, as well as the other orders put into practice

10 that my client referred to. The previous witness told us that he was not

11 familiar with the document, and in view of his position in the BH army, it

12 was not logical to ask him about any of the details contained in those

13 documents. We now have a witness here in court who --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I want to finish off my

15 question.

16 General Petkovic explained to us how this order worked, the order

17 that was executed or went into implementation on the basis of a signal,

18 and that we have documents with these signals. Now, in this document it

19 says that the soldiers, you or others, must have bands on their arms,

20 armbands of different colours.

21 Now, to the best of your recollections, before the 9th of May,

22 that is to say, between the 19th of April and the 9th of May, at any given

23 time, your unit or other soldiers that you knew, were they given these

24 armbands to put on?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 12640

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to what you know --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- you were a soldier. Did you

4 know that sometimes when the troops attacked, in order to avoid confusion

5 soldiers would be finished with bands? Did you know that or did you not

6 know that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the month of April 1993 is

8 concerned, nobody wore any bands around their arms. We did not receive

9 any bands.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, you have told us that the sniper war started on the 19th

12 of April, 1993; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please remember when this happened, at what time? Was it

15 in the afternoon or in the morning? At least can you tell us that.

16 A. It was on the 19th of April. It was neither in the afternoon or

17 the evening. It was on the 19th of April.

18 Q. But when during the day; do you remember?

19 A. It was not during the day, it was during the night. That's when

20 it all started.

21 Q. Are we talking about the night between the 18th and the 19th or

22 the night between the 19th and 20th?

23 A. We say it was on the 19th, but I don't know whether it was between

24 the 18th and 19th, or was it on the 19th, I don't know.

25 Q. Could you please try and remember whether this was the night

Page 12641

1 before or the night after, because we're talking about the 19th of April

2 at the moment.

3 A. If I said that it was during the night, because it was it peaceful

4 during the day, it means it was in the evening.

5 Q. Was it in the evening of the 19th, then? Very well. Can we now

6 please look together at the same document, item 2, which is on the next

7 page. Could we please go to item 2 or the witness.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly ask the same item

9 to be displayed in English.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, could we please look at this item together. It says:

12 "Combat readiness by 1700 hours on 19 April 1993. By that time

13 people had to be shifted, as well as the equipment, from one bank of the

14 river Neretva to the other bank of the Neretva River."

15 Would that coincide with the time, with the moment, when this

16 sniping that you mentioned started?

17 A. I really can't see it on my screen.

18 Q. Item 2, which is approximately in the middle of that page.

19 A. Readiness -- yes, I can see it now.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the English text has

21 disappeared from the screen.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can we say that this coincides what you told us about the

24 beginning of the sniper war?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12642

1 Q. Thank you very much. We have dealt with the separation line. Now

2 I would like to emphasise one more thing.

3 You remember the separation line that you marked on the map of

4 Mostar at the request of Judge Antonetti. You remember that, don't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You've told us that that separation line existed before and after

7 the conflict on the 9th of May, 1993; is that correct?

8 A. When I spoke about the line in 1992, I did not mean the line

9 between the army and the HVO. In 1992, the BH army units were in Vranica

10 and Crnica.

11 Q. Sir, I'm asking you about May 1993. Let's focus on that. I'm

12 asking you, what was the situation like before the 9th of May and after

13 the 9th of May? Could you please be very precise? The separation line

14 that you drew did not change as a result of the conflict that took place

15 on the 9th and 10th of May; in other words, the BH army managed to keep

16 the same line as the separation line against the HVO; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Now can we hear from you: When was it that you left

19 the Hotel Mostar, and where did you go as a member of the 2nd Battalion?

20 A. I already said it in my statement. I believe it was seven or nine

21 days when they came to collect us, and then we went to Crnica.

22 Q. You went to Crnica after the Hotel Mostar. Can you please tell us

23 when you arrived at the logistical base, at the Kluz facility in the

24 Vranica compound?

25 A. If you're asking me about the attack, I was on duty on the 8th.

Page 12643

1 Q. I know that, but I'm not asking you that. You were very clear

2 about that. But we don't know when was it that you arrived from Crnica in

3 the Kluz facility.

4 A. Not from Crnica. We did not arrive from Crnica in the Kluz. But

5 the military police had been established, and from Semovac we were sent to

6 secure the command.

7 Q. Can you please tell us when the military police was established?

8 A. It always existed, but in Semovac, when the troops withdrew into

9 the barracks, that military police already existed. I don't know how else

10 to tell you that. From there we went to secure the command, as military

11 policemen.

12 Q. Very well, then. And when was it exactly when you arrived from

13 Crnica in the Kluz facility, to provide security there?

14 A. I went there every time when it was my shift.

15 Q. When was it the first time that you provided security for that

16 facility?

17 A. As soon as my first shift took place. I don't know exactly when

18 that was.

19 Q. Do you remember when was it the first time that you had to provide

20 security for the Kluz facility?

21 A. Not the Kluz facility. We went to the brigade and then we were

22 deployed by the commander there.

23 Q. And when was the first time you provided security for the

24 facilities in the Vranica compound? When was the first time you arrived

25 there?

Page 12644

1 A. I can't remember. I can't remember the date.

2 Q. Is it possible that the first time you went there was on the 8th

3 of May?

4 A. No.

5 Q. On the 8th of May, when you arrived at that facility, how many

6 times had you been there already?

7 A. Maybe two or three times.

8 Q. You said that you were on duty in that facility, in the logistical

9 base, in the night between the 8th and 9th of May; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you've also told us that you spent the night there; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. You've also told us that you woke up when you heard the sounds of

15 the attack; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You've also told us that you went up to the roof of that building

18 and that on the roof you spent the entire day together with six or seven

19 colleagues of yours, who were also military policemen; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. From the roof of that building, could you see what was going on in

22 town?

23 A. Yes, I could.

24 Q. From the roof of that building, could you also see that the HVO

25 was trying to capture one part of the Vranica building that housed the

Page 12645

1 corps command and brigade command?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In addition to that, what else did you see?

4 A. Since the shells were falling by our heads, we could see them

5 shelling the left bank of the Neretva and we could see some houses ablaze.

6 Q. How did the HVO attack the Vranica building? Did they attack the

7 entire facility or just the part of the facility that housed the command?

8 A. The entire facility.

9 Q. The entire facility, with the same intensity?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On the following day when you descended into the cellar where the

12 command of the corps and the brigade were, were there any civilians in the

13 cellar?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you provide the civilians with instructions as to what to do,

16 whether to go out and surrender, or did you provide them with some other

17 instructions?

18 A. Instructions to the civilians?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I don't understand your question.

21 Q. The civilians were there. You knew that there was an attack going

22 on because the HVO wanted to take the facility where the commands of the

23 corps and the brigade were housed. You knew that the civilians were not

24 the object of the HVO interest. Did you tell them to go out and to

25 surrender? Was that your advice to them? Did you tell them not to put

Page 12646

1 their life at risk by being in the place that was targeted by the attack?

2 A. I apologise, but you obviously haven't a clue what the situation

3 in Vranica was like. A fly could not go out without being hit by a

4 bullet. Why on earth would you then suggest that I should have told the

5 people to go out of the building? I really don't know.

6 Q. Are you saying that all the civilians that were in the Vranica

7 building arrived in the atomic shelter in which the command of these units

8 were?

9 A. All the civilians went downstairs to the cellar.

10 Q. All the civilians from the Vranica building?

11 A. Yes. They could not stay in their houses. They had to go

12 downstairs to the cellar because the shells were falling and there was

13 shooting from rifles, and nobody could leave the Vranica building, either

14 a civilian or a soldier.

15 Q. The attempt to take the Vranica building lasted for a day and

16 somewhat longer, and you surrendered on the 10th of May.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How did the BH army defend themselves against the attack on

19 Vranica?

20 A. How? By rifles.

21 Q. From what positions? How many rifles? Who was shooting?

22 A. I've already told you that there were between 20 and 25 of us in

23 the brigade command.

24 Q. The brigade command was in the atomic shelter. Are you saying you

25 were shooting from the shelter, where you were?

Page 12647

1 A. No. We were shooting from the area in front of the building,

2 where the entrance to the building was.

3 Q. Can you tell us, how many soldiers were there in front of the

4 building?

5 A. There was nobody in front of the building. We were all in the

6 cellar.

7 Q. But you have just told us that you were shooting from the area in

8 front of the building.

9 A. I'm really sorry, but I can't describe to you what the situation

10 was like. It was not a military situation in which you could stand with a

11 rifle, standing guard, firing back. You could not as much as peek to see

12 how far the enemy had advanced because there was shooting going on. Every

13 now and then we would fire a shot; then they would go back and then they

14 would advance. This is how it happened. At the entrance to the building

15 where the command was, nobody could be there because there was constant

16 shooting, there was constant fire going on. I really don't know.

17 Q. Witness, was the building defended by way of opening fire on the

18 HVO positions from some other locations, including the eastern side of

19 Mostar?

20 A. It's impossible.

21 Q. You don't know.

22 A. Not that I don't know. It is impossible. I don't think so. This

23 was between the buildings, and whoever wanted to defend that command, they

24 would have had to shoot at the civilians. And it is just not feasible.

25 Q. Do you know that the BiH army, when deciding where to house the

Page 12648

1 corps and brigade commands, was choosing such a location in which there

2 was the highest number of civilians?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You don't know that, or do you believe that this is not the case?

5 A. I believe that this is not the case.

6 Q. Witness, I'm going to have just one more question about your

7 mother.

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go into private

9 session?

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

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Page 12649

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24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 12650

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

2 Mr. President.

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'll try and be quick. I

5 haven't got many questions for you. I'd like to recapitulate some of the

6 things that you've told us over the past few days.

7 You already answered this question a number of times, but I'd like

8 to broach this area. You said that in April 1993 you worked in the SIS,

9 the S-I-S, which you call the police; is that right? I'm waiting for the

10 interpretation. Would you repeat your answer, please?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Tell me, please, in what building was SIS? Did the building have

13 a name? Because, as we can see, buildings in Mostar tend to have names.

14 A. It was the commercial bank building, Privredna Banka.

15 Q. So we had SIS that you called the police. I'd like now to go back

16 to a document shown us by the Prosecution, which you already looked at

17 with him. It will come up on your screen. P 02146 is the number.

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] P 02146, may we have it on

19 e-court, please. It's the Prosecution bundle, for Their Honours.

20 Q. You will remember that it was, the document, in -- the CSB Mostar

21 was writing to the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 30th

22 of April, 1993. Could you tell us whether the CSB of Mostar -- security

23 services centre, is that what it means, "CSB"?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Am I correct in thinking that that is a form of secret police or

Page 12651

1 special police within the Bosnia-Herzegovinian MUP?

2 A. It is the security services centre.

3 Q. Within MUP. But it's not the ordinary security services centre,

4 is it, if it's the security service?

5 A. Well, I really don't know. I don't think it was anything separate

6 or special.

7 Q. Let's refresh our memories. We discussed the agreement on joint

8 police patrols. We dealt with a portion of that, but I'd like to draw

9 your attention to the following document. Paragraph 2 of that document,

10 the fourth sentence from the end, which says: "In talks..." it begins

11 with "In talks ..." and says:

12 "In talks the representatives of the MUP HZ HB insisted that the

13 realisation of the Vance-Owen Plan be put into operation with respect to

14 the organisation of the police. Insistence was made on the

15 already-established MUP organisation of the HZ HB or, rather, that the

16 members of the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina should be

17 incorporated into the existing organisational set-up."

18 When we read this, then we see that this document deals with the

19 coordination of work between the HZ HB MUP and the MUP of the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Am I right in saying that? In Mostar, in April, of

21 course.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Who, then?

24 A. Well, you're not right, because we can see from this that the MUP

25 HZ HB does not recognise Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we wanted these

Page 12652

1 organisations --

2 Q. That wasn't my question. But this was the problem raised between

3 these two MUPs. I'm not saying who was right and who was wrong, but this

4 deals with the problems between the two MUPs. And my question is: At the

5 time in Mostar, we had the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the MUP of the HZ

6 HB, and they were supposed to reach an agreement but in fact did not; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] May I now have on e-court

11 the following document: P 02030.

12 Q. I think you have it in front of you. Yes. It is a command by

13 Brigadier Miljenko Lasic, dated the 22nd of April, 1993, and it relates to

14 an order in conformity with the agreement on the normalisation of

15 relations in Mostar that we discussed at length over the past few days.

16 So I don't want to repeat all that.

17 Let us just look at item 5 together, as well as item 8 and item

18 9. Item 5, or point 5, says: "The HVO military police shall remain in

19 the university building (the military police of the BH army shall remain

20 in the existing facility at Semovac)."

21 So is that along the lines of the formation that you spoke about,

22 the formation of the military police that was at Semovac?

23 A. That police was already at Semovac, but it didn't have as many

24 men.

25 Q. But what it says here is correct?

Page 12653

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now let's move on to point number 8. It says that:

3 "Mixed teams of the military HVO police and the BH army shall be

4 established to patrol all parts of town over a period of 24 hours and

5 shall control the situation in town. The patrols will wear the same

6 military uniform, without any insignia, and the patrols shall be in place

7 until item 8 of this order is repealed."

8 And 9: "By 1400 hours on the 22nd of April, 1993, all persons

9 arrested by the HVO military police and the BH army shall be exchanged on

10 the all-for-all principle."

11 From this document it emerges that during that time, that is to

12 say, April 1993, there was the HVO military police in existence as well as

13 the military police of the BH army in Mostar. Would that be correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Let me recapitulate. Since we've been through all this, I counted

16 that in Mostar there was a total at the same time, that is to say, April

17 of 1993, the military police of the HVO, the military police of the BH

18 army, the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the MUP of the HZ HB,

19 the SIS that you refer to as the police, the CSB which was within MUP, the

20 MUP of BiH; in other words, six services which dealt with the security

21 situation in Mostar and whose work -- well, attempts were made to

22 coordinate all their work, but quite obviously this was unsuccessful; am I

23 right?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How many of them were there, then?

Page 12654

1 A. You're right in saying that there were these six branches, but

2 you're not right in saying that the BH state had established its power and

3 authority in Mostar, whereas the HZ HB was the illegitimate authority and

4 that they had a parallel MUP. What you're talking about, MUP and SIS and

5 all the rest, they were structures of the police. I don't know how that

6 worked, but they were a parallel authority to the State of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. I don't want to enter into those polemics at present. I was just

9 interested in knowing that at the time in Mostar work had to be

10 coordinated among the six different services in order to improve the

11 situation in Mostar, under wartime conditions.

12 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

13 have no further questions, once we've established that.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Ibrisimovic.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

18 Any re-examination on the part of the Prosecution?

19 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours, the Prosecution doesn't have any

20 re-examination.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Sir, that brings your testimony to an end. Thank you for coming

23 to The Hague and contributing to justice. We wish you, on behalf of all

24 my colleagues, bon voyage back to your country and hope you have every

25 success in your work.

Page 12655

1 Now, before you leave the courtroom, I would like to ask Madam

2 Usher to lower the blinds again.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And may we move into private

6 session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

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Page 12656











11 Pages 12656-12661 redacted. Private session















Page 12662

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, you have the floor.

25 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honours. Just as a point of

Page 12663

1 information before I read the statement -- the summary, and since Your

2 Honours touched on it, you were asking about the BiH -- the proceedings in

3 BiH, and I mention it since it may come up at some stage in the course of

4 these proceedings.

5 Just to tell you that the trial chamber in BiH did, in fact,

6 dismiss that case that you mentioned, which was against specific

7 perpetrators, on the basis that the evidence brought before the trial

8 chamber on that occasion was not -- was considered imprecise, incomplete,

9 and insufficient. Notably, however, the trial chamber did make a ruling

10 that there had been arrests, detentions, and various other crimes

11 committed at that time on a general basis.

12 The decision was appealed by the prosecutor to the Supreme Court

13 of the BiH, who sent the case back for retrial with the finding that the

14 trial chamber were incorrect in not placing sufficient reliance on the

15 witnesses' statements. And the Supreme Court mentioned that even though

16 there were variances in the statements, that the witnesses, for the most

17 part, had held with previous statements given during the investigation.

18 I thought you'd just might like to know that, in case it does come

19 up.

20 As regards the summary, in this case, the witness lived in West

21 Mostar and joined the Bosnian army in April 1993. In mid-April 1993, the

22 witness was detained, interrogated, beaten and threatened by the members

23 of the HVO for -- [Microphone not activated] -- for several hours.

24 The witness was again arrested on May 9, 1993, and detained in the

25 cellar of the mechanical faculty for four days, along with other Muslims,

Page 12664

1 where he saw several prisoners being beaten. Some prisoners were taken

2 out and never returned.

3 On the 13th of May, the witness was taken to Heliodrom where he

4 was mistreated. After five or six days, he was released.

5 In the period that followed, he was arrested several times by the

6 HVO and questioned about his son.

7 On the 7th of July, 1993, while wanting to flee to East Mostar, he

8 was again arrested and detained for a month at the mechanical faculty

9 building. During this period he was beaten and mistreated. The

10 conditions were bad.

11 The witness, on this occasion, instead of saw, which may have

12 appeared in the 65 ter statement, he says now that the witness heard

13 several Muslim prisoners being tortured severely. He saw Muslims were

14 killed by the Croatian Defence Council soldiers who were kicking and

15 beating their heads on the walls.

16 Sometime in December 1993, the witness was shifted to Gabela where

17 he was beaten and mistreated. After a visit of the Red Cross towards the

18 end of December 1993, the witness was transferred back to Heliodrom and

19 detained until March 19, 1994.

20 During this detention, he performed forced labour at front lines

21 of Santiceva Street in Mostar. Muslim detainees were killed while being

22 used as human shields at the front line. HVO soldiers used to extinguish

23 cigarettes on the backs of the prisoners who were working there. Before

24 and after the Muslims were expelled, their houses were plundered by the

25 HVO and their belongings removed. The witness still suffers from beatings

Page 12665

1 which he received while in detention.

2 That concludes the summary.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Alaburic.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned friend.

5 I would like to thank the Trial Chamber. Just one reaction.

6 In the summary, the Prosecutor said that the witness joined, in

7 April 1993, the Bosnian army, and this was recorded on page 15, line 8 of

8 the record. I believe that this should be clarified and it should be said

9 that this is the BiH army, as it indeed says in the statement, according

10 to Rule 65 ter, and we are emphasising this because we believe that the

11 HVO was also the Bosnian army. Thank you very much.

12 MR. FLYNN: Of course my colleague is correct. I was summarising

13 by saying "Bosnian army." He joined the Armija Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

14 BiH forces.

15 Examination by Mr. Flynn:

16 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, you've heard that summary given. Did you

17 provide written statements to the investigators of the Office of the

18 Prosecutor of the ICTY on the 26th of May, 1997, and on the 22nd of

19 September, 2002?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. And at that time that you provided those witness statements, did

22 you answer the questions of the investigator truthfully?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Did you --

25 A. Yes.

Page 12666

1 Q. And did you answer those questions freely, without any coercion?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And at the conclusion of both those statements, were the

4 statements read back to you in the Bosnian language? And did you then

5 sign the statements?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you meet with the investigators again on the 26th of March,

8 2006, and make a correction? Did you sign that correction?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you travelled here to The Hague, you met with an investigator

11 and myself yesterday. Do you recall -- not yesterday, last week. Do you

12 recall that?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. At that point in time were you given the opportunity of reviewing

15 your ICTY statements in the Bosnian language?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is it correct that you made a number of changes that my

18 colleagues and the Defence have been notified about?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I think in relation to your statement of 26th of May -- 26th of

21 May, 1997, you wanted to correct that statement by saying that, while

22 Mr. Anicic was present in the basement of the mechanical faculty, you did

23 not see Mr. Anicic kick or beat the prisoners' heads on the wall. Isn't

24 that correct?

25 A. It is correct.

Page 12667

1 Q. I think you also made another short amendment to that statement of

2 the 26th of May, 1997, where you said, at the end: "I was transferred

3 back to Heliodrom from Gabela on either December 29th or early -- 28th or

4 early 29th December 1993 and not December 30th," and that was on page 3,

5 paragraph 4, of the English translation. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. In the second statement of the 22nd of September, 2002, I think

8 you made a change to say that the mechanical faculty was the headquarters

9 of the HVO anti-terrorist unit. That was at page 3, paragraph 2, of the

10 English translation.

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. I think you also provided some additional information. Isn't that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you spoke about seeing Mr. Hebibovic roll down the stairs,

16 strike against the door of your cell, which was forced open, which allowed

17 you to look out into the hallway. Isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I think you also provided the additional information that --

20 that you heard members of the HVO coming down the stairs, saying that they

21 would urinate on the bodies of the two individuals who had been killed;

22 and that when you went to clean and paint the room in which they were held

23 later, that you saw and removed human waste from the floor and put it in

24 sacks and that the room -- the smell of the room was quite terrible. Is

25 that correct?

Page 12668

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Now, you have a booklet in front of you. I would like you to turn

3 to the front of the booklet. You'll see it, the tab. If you'd look at

4 number 98 -- 098 -- 09806.

5 MR. FLYNN: The statement is under seal, Your Honours.

6 Q. Is this the statement which you gave to the ICTY on the 26th of

7 May, 1997? Do you recognise the signature at the bottom?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. We're in open

10 session. If there's no signature, then we can stay in open session; but

11 if there is, then we have to move into private session, Mr. Flynn.

12 MR. FLYNN: He's reading from a hard copy, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.


15 Q. So do you recognise the signature at the bottom? Is this your

16 signature?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. And if you turn the various pages of that statement, the signature

19 appearing at the bottom, again, is that your signature?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, if you turn to the next document, document 9807. Again, is

22 this a statement given by you to the ICTY on the 21st of September, 2002?

23 And is that your signature at the bottom?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And are those your initials on the following pages?

Page 12669

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. If you had to give the evidence and the content -- from those

3 statements all over again before this Court today, would your evidence be

4 the same as is written in those statements?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, during -- in your statement of the 26th of May, 1997, at

7 paragraph -- page 3, paragraph 4, of the English translation, you

8 mentioned that you were transferred back to Heliodrom from Gabela at the

9 end of December. Isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And I think in the original statement you said the 30th of

12 December, but you changed that to the 28th or 29th of December. Isn't

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'd like you to have a look at document number 07378 in your

16 booklet of documents. If you turn to the second page, you have it in

17 Bosnian. This is a report of a prisoners-of-war shelter, basically giving

18 the numbers of detained and released persons for the period 28th of

19 December to the 29th of December, 1993. And if you look at the first

20 paragraph, you have a whole list of names, and we see on the second last

21 line the name (redacted). Do you see that?

22 A. I do.

23 MR. FLYNN: It's just been brought to my attention that we're in

24 open session, Your Honour. Perhaps it might be an appropriate time to go

25 into --

Page 12670

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall go into private

2 session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

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Page 12671











11 Pages 12671-12684 redacted. Private session















Page 12685

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25 [Open session]

Page 12686

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

2 Mr. President.

3 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'm going to ask you two or

5 three very short questions. I would kindly ask you not to give me long

6 answers because I promised I would be done in a very short time.

7 His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you about your statement, and you

8 spoke about having seen members of the Croatian army, the Thunder and

9 Tiger units at the Heliodrom; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In your statement you say that on one occasion, while you were

12 cleaning the area where they were, that you had a chat with one of the

13 soldiers and that he had told you that he hailed from Travnik; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes. He hailed from Travnik, and he was a member of the Croatian

16 army.

17 Q. I believe that everybody in the courtroom is clear on that, but

18 let me ask you: Travnik is in Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On that occasion, did he tell you that his family had been

21 expelled from Travnik?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

25 witness.

Page 12687

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 The following Defence counsel, please.

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague Ms. Nozica

4 has actually dealt with my questions, but I would just like to explore one

5 detail, to put things in a certain context. I'm talking about the HV

6 soldier or whether he was an HV soldier in the context of these events.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Would you agree, or would you know anything about

9 the fact that many men from Bosnia and Herzegovina before the war, before

10 1990, had worked in Croatia? Many of them had been employed in Croatia

11 permanently and they would only come home on weekends or long holidays; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did that apply equally to Croats and Muslims from Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina?

16 A. We all worked, yes.

17 Q. Did you personally work in Croatia?

18 A. Never. Never. This is my first trip ever out of the borders of

19 the former Yugoslavia.

20 Q. Did you have any acquaintances, friends, or relatives who worked

21 in Croatia before 1990?

22 A. No. I only knew some athletes.

23 Q. But you knew that a lot of people worked in Croatia.

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Would you agree with me that many of these people who worked in

Page 12688

1 Croatia - and I'm referring to both Muslims and Croats - and who found

2 themselves in Croatia in 1990 and 1991 when the aggression of the JNA

3 started, they volunteered and they joined the National Guards, who later

4 on became the Croatian army; is that correct?

5 A. I heard of that.

6 Q. You heard of such cases?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You mentioned Travnik. Would you say that that would be one of

9 such places?

10 A. He would not have reason to tell me that was not the case.

11 Q. In your statement, on page 14, line 19 - the statement was given

12 on the 21st of September - you mentioned an HV soldier who told you -- I

13 apologise. It was actually earlier today that you mentioned an HVO

14 soldier from Makarska. He told you that he hailed from Makarska; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How long did you talk to him? Did you exchange two or three

18 sentences, more or less?

19 A. When he asked me why I was black and blue, I answered him and then

20 I asked him where he was from, and then he told me, "We are from

21 Makarska," and that was that. And then I continued digging trenches.

22 Q. From the few words that he uttered, could you tell by his dialect,

23 by his accent, by his way of speech, that maybe he also was from

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. No. He didn't use our dialect.

Page 12689

1 Q. It didn't sound to you like your dialect.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, but

3 Mr. Praljak does.

4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

5 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you know that the Tigers are the

7 best-known Croatian brigade?

8 A. I don't know whether they are best known, but I know that they

9 were together with the Thunders.

10 Q. On their sleeves, did they have a number 1?

11 A. I wouldn't know about number 1. I did not have a closer look.

12 Q. You said that you often saw them there when you were cleaning the

13 rooms. Did the Thunders have a number 2 on their sleeves?

14 A. No, I didn't see that.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 A. I only know that on one occasion when I was taken out to be taken

17 for forced labour they were standing behind us, and then I heard their

18 comment and it was something to that effect: "What if these people turned

19 against us?"

20 Q. Tell me, please, how many men, how many soldiers, did you see who

21 might have wore the Tiger insignia? How many did you see?

22 A. I don't know the exact number. There was the first building that

23 was full with Tigers. The second was full with Thunders. I don't know

24 how many were there. I never counted heads. I'm not that type of

25 person. I'm not the one to look how many people there were. There were

Page 12690

1 many, in any case.

2 Q. Try and remember. When you see them in a group, you say that you

3 saw them in their positions. How many did you see in one group at the

4 most? Let's leave the buildings aside. Let's talk about groups. How

5 many were there in one group?

6 A. For example, if a corridor is 10 metres long and there were rooms

7 on each side of the corridor, in every room there were two or three

8 soldiers. I don't know how many there were altogether.

9 Q. Thank you very much. This is enough. When they spoke amongst

10 each other about the ID, identification, the HVO identifications, you

11 mentioned that they were given addresses in Mostar. Is it true that they

12 were given addresses in Mostar?

13 A. That's what I heard from them. Because they didn't have a clue

14 about the names of the streets in Mostar that were on their IDs.

15 Q. And one more question. Do you know --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please come

17 closer to the microphones that are in front of you. Speak into the

18 microphones.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. When was the first time when you saw these people whom you called

21 the Tigers there and the Thunders? What month was that? What date was

22 that when you first saw them?

23 A. When I was brought to the Heliodrom for the second time. I was

24 imprisoned and then I was transferred to the school, and from the school I

25 was taken to work in those buildings.

Page 12691

1 Q. What month was that? Can you tell me?

2 A. I don't know, believe me. I really don't know. I don't know

3 whether you can believe me, but I really don't know.

4 Q. Why wouldn't I believe you? There's no reason for me not to

5 believe that you can't remember.

6 You obviously can't know how many soldiers did the Tiger brigade

7 have at the time.

8 A. I wouldn't know.

9 Q. What about the Thunders?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know whether the Thunders were stationed in Sisak or in

12 Split?

13 A. I believe that they were stationed in Split.

14 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I don't have any other questions for

15 you.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

17 Honours.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions for

20 this witness.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Ms. Tomic.

23 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

24 Honour.

25 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

Page 12692

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

2 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go into

3 private session, if possible.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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Page 12693

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The second time you were arrested, you were arrested on the 7th of

8 July, 1993; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you were transferred to the mechanical engineering faculty the

11 next day or on the 8th of July. You were in the medical school first.

12 A. Yes, the school of medicine first and then to the faculty.

13 Q. So that means one day later, which would make it the 8th of July,

14 1993.

15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] May we have on e-court

16 once again, please, P 08534. It is the death certificate that we already

17 looked at today.

18 MR. FLYNN: Could I just interject here, Your Honours, with

19 permission. It's relevant to the question that Judge Trechsel asked us

20 earlier on.

21 Over the break, we managed to locate a more legible copy of this

22 death certificate. It's not up on e-court, unfortunately, but

23 Mr. Registrar has a copy. It's a document that was submitted some months

24 ago to Your Worships.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We have this certificate

Page 12694

1 and the name does, indeed, appear. We can put it on the ELMO.

2 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So you arrived at the mechanical engineering faculty on the 8th of

4 July, 1993. Let us now take a look at the date -- month, year, and the

5 date of death for this individual. On the certificate, you can see it on

6 the right-hand side. You'll see it better there. It's on the right-hand

7 side. You have it on that overhead projector there. That's right. We

8 have the day, the month, the year of death, and it says that this

9 particular person died on the 6th of July, 1993. So that would be two

10 days before you arrived at the mechanical engineering faculty.

11 A. That's not true, because he died before my very own eyes.

12 Q. But you said you didn't know this man Hebibovic personally, but

13 you were just told that that was his name. People who knew him allegedly

14 told you. And you saw him, according to your testimony, this person, for

15 the first time at the mechanical engineering faculty.

16 A. Yes, that's right. When they were brought in --

17 Q. Never mind, sir. It's all in your statement. I just have a brief

18 question. We have two statements of yours; one is dated the 26th of May,

19 1997, and the other one is the later one which was taken on the 20th and

20 21st of September, 2002.

21 In one it says, when you describe your stay at the mechanical

22 engineering faculty on the second occasion, that is to say, July --

23 rather, in your first statement you said you were incarcerated for a

24 month, and in the second statement you say about two months.

25 Now, I'm interested in - and we have to wait for the

Page 12695

1 interpretation - I'm interested in you telling me which of the two is

2 correct, whether the incarceration period of one month or two-month

3 period. Which is it?

4 A. I can't remember exactly because I had lost all notion of time in

5 the dark.

6 Q. I understand you, sir.

7 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 I have no further questions for this witness.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, I didn't

10 wish to interrupt my colleague, but I would like to say for the record,

11 although it's gone off our screens, but at page 84, line 19, the witness's

12 answer was "yes," and in brackets is "Mate Anicic." In answering the

13 question, the witness just said yes. So this name "Mate Anicic" was not

14 uttered by the witness on that occasion.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Counsel Ibrisimovic, any questions?

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, we said earlier on,

18 Mr. President, that we have no questions for this witness. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 The Prosecution, any re-examination?

21 MR. FLYNN: No re-examination by the Prosecution, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, that completes your

23 testimony. I would like to thank you for coming to give testimony in The

24 Hague at the request of the Prosecution. So on behalf of my colleagues, I

25 would like to express our best wishes for your safe return home, and we

Page 12696

1 wish you every success in your future activities.

2 I'm going to ask Madam Usher to have the blinds lowered before she

3 escorts you out of the courtroom.

4 I'm now going to ask the registrar to move into private session.

5 [Closed session]

6 (redacted)

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Page 12697











11 Pages 12697-12698 redacted. Closed session















Page 12699

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9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the transcript, in open

14 session the Prosecution is going to read a summary.

15 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Your Honour, normal practice, as Your Honour will know, has been

17 to read a Rule 65 ter summary of the evidence, but in view of the

18 extremely sensitive nature of this witness's evidence, my proposal is to

19 give a severely abridged version of the 65 ter description that we would

20 ordinarily read out, inasmuch as to say that the witness is giving

21 evidence as regards events in the Mostar area from August 1992 and through

22 1993 where she worked within the Northern Camp, the northern barracks, as

23 they were known, in the Mostar area. During that time, she herself was a

24 victim of sexual assault.

25 As far as the summary is concerned, that will be the Prosecution's

Page 12700

1 summary for the purposes of the public record.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's move back into

3 closed session.

4 [Closed session]

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Page 12701











11 Pages 12701-12709 redacted. Closed session















Page 12710

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Public session.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If we look at the schedule, we

7 can see that for tomorrow we have one witness, and I believe that you have

8 envisaged two hours for the examination-in-chief of that witness.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. My colleague Mr. Scott

10 will be dealing with the witness tomorrow. We do envisage two hours. It

11 will probably, as is typically the case, be less time than that. I

12 believe that time estimate was given precisely for the reason that the

13 witness is a journalist, a broadcast journalist, and I believe we'll be

14 showing some videotapes through that witness, which, of course, take a

15 little bit of time. So I do hope and anticipate that we'll be able to

16 start and finish the witness tomorrow, but I can't be more precise than

17 that at this point in time because, as I indicated, Mr. Scott will be

18 dealing with the witness and is still in the process of proofing him.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 We will then resume tomorrow afternoon. This week we work in the

21 afternoon, and tomorrow we shall be starting at quarter past 2.00.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

24 January, 2007, at 2.00 p.m.