Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12928

1 Thursday, 25th January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you please

7 call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

9 Case IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good afternoon to

11 everybody, to the Prosecution bench, to the Defence counsel, to the

12 accused including Mr. Petkovic, and my greetings to the supporting staff.

13 You have the floor for two IC numbers, Mr. Registrar. Thank you.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [French on English channel]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 THE REGISTRAR: IC 252. Thank you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber is

18 going to issue an oral decision regarding the video. We had deliberations

19 this morning and we decided that the video had to be introduced during the

20 testimony of the said witness. Since it is about 58 minutes long, the

21 Trial Chamber urges the Prosecution to reduce as much as possible the end

22 of the direct examination so that the Defence can have at least two hours

23 before the end of the day for cross-examination purposes.

24 Ms. Egels, you have the floor. Please finish your direct

25 examination and then we can have the video.

Page 12929


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Allow me to add, because I'd

4 fear don't to say that if later on the Defence were to think that during

5 cross-examination they would not have had the time needed to ask all

6 relevant questions of the witness, the Defence can always file objections

7 in writing pursuant to earlier decisions when there are challenges on

8 evidence.

9 You have the floor, Ms. Egels.

10 MS. EGELS: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honours,

11 and good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

12 Examination by Ms. Egels: [Continued]

13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Witness, we left after yesterday after a

14 pretty extensive explanation of what the conditions were at the hospital

15 in East Mostar after 9 May of 1993. I would like to go back to some

16 specifics that you gave us yesterday. You talked about the fact that one

17 of the nurses, Linda, had been killed on the 9th of May. Now, given the

18 location of the hospital and your description of the situation, could you

19 tell the Court if the hospital building itself has been affected by combat

20 activities after the 9th of May?

21 A. This is the way it was: Quite simply put it could be seen in the

22 photographs that were displayed a countless number of times. The building

23 was bullet-riddled with small bullets at that. The roof was hit a

24 countless number of times. We had this man who was just in charge of

25 fixing the roof tiles every day. And I know of two major hits with

Page 12930

1 something that was probably a tank shell or a cannonball. I come to that

2 conclusion because there was this enormous whole on the wall. Not on the

3 roof but on the wall, and I could fit into that hole once I stood there

4 right in front of that hole. And one was on the north or north-east side

5 of the building, and the later one was on the western side of the send

6 part on the central floor, that is to say on the upper floor depending on

7 how you do your counting, downstairs, on the upstairs, the first floor,

8 the second floor, but anyway, both hits were upstairs.

9 At any rate, unfortunately in both cases it was the pharmacies

10 that were hit, our pharmaceutical materials. So a lot of it was destroyed

11 during the first shelling and the second shelling and the same thing

12 happened afterwards as well.

13 Q. Witness, the hospital did it have any distinctive markings on it,

14 on the building or surrounding the building showing that it was a

15 hospital?

16 A. There was this big marking that was made of bed sheets because

17 they were put together, and it was very long and there was a red cross in

18 the middle, and that was on the fence on both sides. And since we mostly

19 came in from the left-hand side, as we called it, from the south, that is,

20 I think that that's the one that was the most obvious one. It was this

21 enormous flag, if I can call it that, with the red cross on it.

22 Q. Except for Linda, were there any other members of the medical

23 staff that have been the target of fire after the 9th of May?

24 A. Yes. Yes. Doctor Camdzic, an old lady doctor, she got killed.

25 She was seriously wounded, operated on, then later on evacuated to Split,

Page 12931

1 but she died. Dr. Konjhodzic was hit with a shell in the left side of his

2 chest and that is why he could not work. He could not function. For

3 quite a while he was a patient in the hospital. Dr. Rizvanbegovic was hit

4 too. I think that that even exists on the recording that I saw many

5 times. I think it was the BBC video clip when Dr. Rizvanbegovic was

6 wounded.

7 Two nurses got killed who were working there. Anyway, it was

8 relatively near the hygiene department. One was called Sunita and I do

9 not remember the name of the other one. There were some other people who

10 were wounded. We call these people civilian protection, but basically

11 they were just stretcher bearers.

12 Also a person got killed who - well, how shall I put this? -

13 worked on preparing corpses and records of the killed. Agib Morina is his

14 name. He worked in the hospital before the war and during the war he

15 worked with us. He got killed right in front of the hygiene department,

16 and I think it was a big shell that hit him.

17 Possibly there are other casualties as well, but -- oh, yes.

18 There was nurse Sejdifa as well. She was wounded too.

19 Q. During your testimony you referred on several occasions to

20 sniping. You referred to victims of sniper fire. Do you have any idea

21 where that sniping fire came from? Did these victims or other people tell

22 you where the sniping fire came from?

23 A. I do have an idea, and I have my very own experience, so I know of

24 at least two points that can be characterised as such.

25 One was called the general high school, and I don't think it's

Page 12932

1 only the building of the general high school. In my view, it's also the

2 buildings that were near the high school. The high school is the central

3 building and next door to it there is an elementary school that's very

4 similar to it, architecturally speaking. And then there is the glass bank

5 as it was called, because it was all in glass, that building. Before, of

6 course. None of that is left.

7 Now, why do I know that? Because from time to time I had to go

8 that way, in that direction where there was sniping. So you'd have to

9 take the main street, Tito Street. Not the street but you had to go

10 through the backyards because there was a sign saying, "Watch out,

11 sniper." For years even after the war there was this sign and you'd have

12 to go all around.

13 And the second place I am referring to, not on the basis of my

14 personal experience but on the basis of what patients told me and -- what

15 my wife told me, for instance, is that locality which was targeted that

16 that is an area that has a threefold name, Luka Tekija. Some people call

17 it one thing some people call it the other thing but it's the very same

18 thing. It is an extension of the Hasan Brkic bridge, and those who were

19 targeting us were on the hillock on the other side called Stotina. That

20 is a very broad area. It is a four-lane street and then there is the

21 sidewalks. So it's an open space and there was no other way of crossing

22 to the other side but taking that risk. There is no other way.

23 Q. Witness, can I ask you now to go to Exhibit number 2791. It is in

24 the first binder just next to you.

25 Yesterday you explained extensively how to read a protocol book

Page 12933

1 that was presented to you under Exhibit number 2786. As you will all see,

2 this exhibit in the hard copy bears a yellow sticker almost in the middle

3 of it. Can I ask you to first start by the first part which is before the

4 yellow sticker and tell us what this is?

5 A. The first page?

6 Q. It is the first page in your binder. And on e-court it is page

7 number 123 of that document.

8 A. It's the same page that we saw last time. As I said, it is one of

9 the last pages of one of the first protocols that had first been started

10 as an outpatient protocol and then it continues as a surgery protocol from

11 the 9th of May, because at that time whatever the diagnosis was, we

12 admitted all our patients into the same room. So that's one of those

13 pages. Dated the 9th of May, by the way. I say I remember that by

14 patient 4545. I remember that.

15 Q. Indeed. And flipping through those pages up to the yellow

16 sticker, is this the continuity of that same protocol book you are now

17 referring to?

18 A. Yes. These are the pages of the 9th of May. Linda Petrovic is

19 here. I know that for sure. I don't see the first stamp here. We use

20 the stamp to show what day it was.

21 For us it would begin at midnight, and then later on we'd have

22 our shift changes at 8.00. Yes. 10th of May. It's the very same

23 protocol.

24 Q. If I can direct you now to the yellow sticker. Could you tell the

25 Trial Chamber what this page is? And that is the first page of the

Page 12934

1 document on e-court.

2 A. This is a photocopy of the cover page or the first page, if I

3 should call it that, of the protocol of the war hospital. This is

4 emergencies, surgery. On the 19th of May, 1993 until the 15th of June,

5 1993. It seems to be a relatively short period, but that's not the point,

6 whether it's a big book or a small book. This protocol, after the 15th

7 of June because of the volume of our work was taken upstairs and continues

8 as the outpatient protocol, because upstairs we had to have an infirmary

9 for these sort of regular cases, peacetime cases if I can call it that

10 whereas in the basement we just had the surgery left. So the new protocol

11 was opened downstairs. I think it started with number 1, whereas this

12 one continues with big numbers. You can see here in the thousands and so

13 on.

14 Q. Going to the second page of that protocol that starts on the 19th

15 of May, 1993, could you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber what the

16 difference is between that protocol and the first one that we saw?

17 A. The first difference is in the origin of this protocol. This

18 protocol obviously was intended for some kind of laboratory documentation,

19 because it says here "material," who was sending the material and what

20 material. It's probably the laboratory protocol. We used what we found.

21 We didn't have any specially printed protocols for us.

22 Secondly I told you there was this basic principle from day 1 that

23 we had a date and then later on we did not have ink for the stamp so then

24 we had to write this in hand and then there would be the number of the

25 patient, the name and surname which is obligatory, and then the year of

Page 12935

1 birth and the diagnosis and over here the therapy as well, because there

2 was enough room to write that down as well.

3 Sometime in some places, I believe over here too, there are

4 additional pieces of information like housecalls, if somebody went to the

5 neighbourhood to visit a patient. But anyway, this is the basic data.

6 Q. Can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 4287. That is also in

7 that first binder.

8 As you just explained yesterday and today, from the 15th of June

9 onwards there were two separate protocol books that were held at the

10 hospital. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what this protocol book

11 is?

12 A. Yes. This is a photocopy of the first page or, rather, the cover

13 page of this newly established protocol that we used down there in the

14 cellar. It starts on the 15th of June, 1993, and ends on the 18th of

15 August, 1993.

16 On this page it says quite clearly that it's the protocol of the

17 laboratory. That is what it had been intended for but that's not the way

18 it ended up. You can see that judging by the rubrics. I already

19 mentioned that. See, it really starts with number 1. So it's 1, 2, 3,

20 4. The date is the 15th of June. That is the moment when the protocol

21 was taken upstairs and continued as the infirmary protocol, whereas this

22 one remained surgery only and it has the very same rubrics, and basically

23 the same ones that we established as usual, that is to say name, surname,

24 number, year of birth, and so on. I don't remember having seen this and

25 the other pages, but here, yes. The rubric that is supposed to be

Page 12936

1 affiliation, someone, something for the first patient -- it says the 3rd

2 Battalion, the 2nd Company. Then the second patient is a civilian, the

3 third one is MUP, that is to say a policeman. The fourth one is from the

4 customs company, the Carina company, and then civilians.

5 And the last bit is interesting I think. Sometimes it would be

6 written in one place and sometimes in another place. That is to say where

7 the wounding took place. Fejiceva street, the cinema, and then in

8 parentheses, and then Lero is an old restaurant. So it's on two sides,

9 this protocol. I remember it.

10 What I'm seeing now is the left-hand side of the protocol. On the

11 right-hand side where the diagnoses and the treatment. See, so it's the

12 left-hand side and the right-hand side where the diagnosis is put and what

13 was done. Analgesics and dressing wounds and so on and so forth.

14 Q. So just for the purpose of the record, when you refer to the

15 left-hand side of the protocol you refer to the first page that you were

16 looking at, and when you refer to the right-hand side of the protocol you

17 refer to the second page of the document that you were looking at?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you notice or recognise your own handwriting in that

20 protocol?

21 A. Just a moment, please. Here under number 28, 29, 30. The

22 complete rubric is filled out in my own hand. Also, 25. Well, I'm not

23 doing this in the right order, but, say, the place of wounding, all of it

24 is my handwriting. And it's the neighbourhood on the north-east. And

25 then the block letters are mine, and then the patient number 22 as well.

Page 12937

1 Yeah. If the number is important, 22, 25, 28, 29, 30.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 9675, and that is in

5 the second binder next to you.

6 Can I ask you to tell the Trial Chamber what this document is?

7 A. This is a photocopy of the first page of the protocol that

8 continues from what we looked at a few moments ago, from the 18th of

9 August until the 13th of October, 1993. Yes, that's it.

10 As far as I can remember, the book is of an identical form like

11 the one that was photocopied before. So on one page you have the left and

12 the right.

13 Q. Would that be just the same type of protocol book but just a

14 continuation in time?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Can I ask you now to turn to Exhibit number 5853 in the same

17 binder, please? And could you tell the Trial Chamber what this document

18 is?

19 A. On this side it -- we see a copy of the first page of the

20 emergency surgical ward of the war hospital of the 13th of October, 1993,

21 until the 24th of May, 1994. Here we see the first page, the cover page.

22 Shall we go on?

23 Q. Yes, please. The two next pages.

24 A. The next -- these two pages do not belong to the protocol as such.

25 They are of that provenance, so to speak. This was torn out of a protocol

Page 12938

1 book. I can explain about these two pages in detail if you wish.

2 It's a kind of temperature lists that we kept. Now, why? Usually

3 we would use any empty sheet. Usually it would just be a regular sheet of

4 paper and then we would put a horizontal line, and a vertical line, and

5 then we would put down the basics, name, surname, year of birth, diagnosis

6 in the corner. I cannot see here from the photocopy but, see, there is

7 this part here, diagnosis. And then there's a number, 114, and the number

8 would usually be taken from the protocol onto the temperature list. And

9 then if ever a discharge letter was to be written then that number would

10 be referred to. Then underneath the usual thing, the first day of

11 admission, the 27th of October. That is what it says here. If the

12 patient would remain with us, if the patient survived, then the list would

13 stay. And if the patient would be discharged definitely or if the patient

14 would die, then we'd turn on to the other page. So usually we'd have

15 double writing, trim writing we'd cross things out and go on then this is

16 a temperature list of a patient who was there for a longer period of time,

17 say, within the war hospital, but I think that this is really the list of

18 one of the dispensaries, because the dates are linked to the numbers here,

19 18, 19, 20. So these are late days. And the therapy was not urgent

20 postoperative therapy. It is analgesics, wound dressings, and so on, and

21 then this, this, and this temperature lists from, say, one of the other

22 wards.

23 Now, what follows on from this -- what follows on are copies of

24 pages from the protocol of the war hospital.

25 Q. Starting on what date?

Page 12939

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes? Starting the 13th of October.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One clarification, Doctor while

4 you were speaking I was having a look at the documents. The first

5 document concerns Delalic Aida, born in 1961, discharged on the 27th of

6 October, apparently, temperature was 36, blood pressure 120/80. Is this

7 the type of document that you put at the end of a bed in order to know

8 exactly at first glance what the situation of the patient is? Because if

9 you go to page 3 there, you have another document where you find Aida

10 Delalic again because then she's after somebody else, and you have the

11 feeling that this document is a document that has been drafted by the

12 minute. At 20 hours 43, Aida Delalic, there is something mentioned, and

13 then at 2044 there's a Peko being mentioned. So don't we have several

14 documents that may have to do with one and the same patient?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly what you mean.

16 I can follow this in terms of dates, 15th, 16th, 17th and so on, October,

17 up to the 20th, that is. The list on the other page, the other page is

18 divided vertically on two sides that goes all the way up to the 26th of

19 October. Then what we see follows on. So we had the first one, then the

20 27th so these are the days involved, the 31st, then the 1st, the 2nd, and

21 so on and so forth. That's the point.

22 And what is written down here is indeed the temperature and blood

23 pressure, which is usually written not in millimetres but in kilopascals.

24 Obviously that is the kind of equipment that the nurse or doctor had. So

25 there is no special additional data provided except here it says surgeon,

Page 12940

1 orthopaedic surgeon. So it was either an orthopaedic surgeon who was

2 called in or general surgeon or the patient was taken to that person for

3 an examination. The rest is the usual thing. So that is what hangs on

4 the side of the bed.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's what I

6 thought. We're not going to spend hours on this, are we, Ms. Egels?

7 Please go ahead, because I mean we've all been ill or hospitalised some

8 day, so we know how to handle this type of document. Please carry on.

9 MS. EGELS: Yes, Your Honour. I just wanted the witness to see

10 those documents and tell us if he knew about them.

11 Q. Now, Witness, can I ask you to go to the third binder and to

12 Exhibit number 3198 [Realtime transcript read in, error "3918"], please.

13 Can you tell the trial court -- the Trial Chamber what this document is,

14 please?

15 A. This is a photocopy of the first page, i.e., the copy page of the

16 protocol from the Santici stationary department from the 5th of July,

17 1993, to 22nd -- to 20 February, 1994.

18 Q. Do you recognise this document?

19 A. I do, although I did not see it at the time because it was used in

20 Santiceva stationary hospital. I didn't work there. I was there only

21 once when this facility was being established. After that other doctors

22 worked there. Dr. Imamovic for the most part.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I an I

Page 12941

1 apologise. I believe that there has been a mistake. We have a milinfosum

2 report which may be under seal. This is an UNPROFOR report. I believe

3 that there has been a mistake in displaying documents on e-court.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. This is Exhibit 3198 and

5 not 3918. There was a mistake on line 10, page 13. You said 3918, but as

6 a matter of fact it is 3198.

7 MS. EGELS: Sorry, Your Honour. I seem to have a problem with

8 reading numbers these days. But I have no further questions for this

9 witness. Thank you, Witness.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.

11 Thank you for the direct examination which is in keeping with expectation

12 time wise.

13 Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours. Good

15 afternoon everyone in and around the court room. If our understanding is

16 correct as to what we've been directed to do, it's our understanding that

17 the Trial Chamber wants the Prosecution to show the videos -- the video

18 compilation material to this witness we're simply seeking guidance as to

19 whether we should do that now or whether we should perhaps do that later

20 this afternoon.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. No. You are going to

22 broadcast the video now, the one that starts with people walking on a

23 path, and then there will be clips related to the hospital and so forth.

24 So either you will be allowed to put further questions to the witness or

25 the -- and the Defence will be able to cross-examine on everything that

Page 12942

1 may be of interest to them, inasmuch, of course, as the witness can answer

2 the questions. If he can't, then he won't answer them.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps at this point it would be helpful then with

4 the assistance of the usher if the transcripts and list indicating the

5 exhibit numbers and time codes to be distributed at this point in time.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

7 MR. MUNDIS: I would also ask, if I could just briefly explain to

8 the witness what's going to happen in light of the fact that obviously --

9 in light of the Trial Chamber's decision, the witness is unaware of this

10 entire procedure.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, beforehand, Your Honour, because we are

12 totally unaware of this procedure as well. This is the first time we are

13 hearing this. We understood that a video was going to be played, a

14 montage from various clips. We were not told that it was in relation to

15 this particular witness. If I may, Your Honour. They told us they had

16 two hours for this witness. Now this witness, through the video, it would

17 appear they're going to take almost three hours, and I don't think -- and

18 then are they going to be asking the witness --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, no. Yes. The video is

20 exactly 58 minutes long and it relates to Mostar. It is made up of

21 SkyNews stories, also CNN stories and BBC, HRT, ORF stories. This video

22 compilation deals with shooting, with wounded people and people taken to

23 places where the witness was working. So he will be able to say, "Yes, I

24 do recognise this. This is my hospital," and that sort of thing. And it

25 will also be possible to put questions to the witness in relation to the

Page 12943

1 pictures we're going to see. So there's no surprise at all.

2 Yesterday, the Defence counsel wanted to be able to cross-examine.

3 There is evidence here. We have a witness. Who better than him would be

4 able to comment on the pictures of wounded people, people who were treated

5 there. So of course you are free to make comments, but you will do so in

6 writing. But you know we're pressed by time and the Trial Chamber made

7 this decision. It has been decided. We cannot go back on our decision.

8 You will be free to cross-examine. As far as I think --

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- there is no prejudice no harm

11 to you.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, with all due respect, maybe I

13 didn't -- misunderstood, maybe it wasn't translated, maybe it wasn't

14 communicated, but I certainly never heard yesterday that they were going

15 to be playing the video in the middle of this gentleman's testimony, and

16 then we would be cross-examining on that part. It was my understanding

17 that the gentleman would be testifying and that the video would be played

18 afterwards in the event, in the event there was time left -- left to

19 cross-examine. Now if we look at the time and today is Thursday, this

20 gentleman was -- was --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but we felt and it was an

22 option for us. But if we were to play the video after the witness's

23 testimony, you could no longer cross-examine him on this.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues] ...

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we wanted that starting from

Page 12944

1 the video --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: These decisions need to be communicated to the

3 Defence so we can be prepared. We're hearing this for the very first

4 time.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, please have a look

6 at the transcript. Yesterday, we stated that we were going to deliberate

7 on this issue of the video. This was written into the transcript.

8 Yesterday we made no decision. There was an option, as was wished by the

9 Prosecution to display or play this video later on. Mr. Kovacic got on

10 his feet to say he didn't agree with that. We deliberated this morning,

11 and in order to safeguard the rights of the Defence we held that the

12 Defence, after watching this video in the presence of the witness would be

13 free to put any questions that seem suitable to him. So this is in your

14 own interest. I'm surprised.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour, but we want an exact

16 accounting of all the time, and if the gentleman has to be here for the

17 weekend so he can testify on Monday, we want our entire time. We don't

18 want to be -- we don't want to be shortchanged because of this new

19 approach. That's all I'm saying, Your Honour. It's Thursday today, and I

20 just think that if the Trial Chamber is going to make decisions which I --

21 I'm totally in agreement with, at least we should be -- we should know

22 about this as soon as possible so at least we would have been somewhat

23 more prepared. Very well.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Look, let's stop. Let's put an

Page 12945

1 end to this because we are under time pressure, and now you're slowing

2 things down because of incidents in the proceedings. Now we're going to

3 play the video. If the Prosecution are to have questions they can put it.

4 I would be surprised. And then you have all the time you need until

5 7.00.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, two

7 facts only. It seems to me that not everything has been communicated to

8 you. In the proofing chart that we received from the Prosecutor about

9 witnesses, we received this one on time and nothing is mentioned about any

10 video. Yesterday a letter arrived from the Prosecutor on the 24th of

11 January. I don't know whether you received a copy. You should have. The

12 Prosecutor announced yesterday and expressly said -- I'm going to read in

13 English: "And in connection with the Mostar evidence has prepared a

14 compilation of video material lasting approximately one hour. This

15 presentation is a compilation of fifty media clips about Mostar from the

16 Croatian and international media taken from the following exhibits ..."

17 [Interpretation] This was the first time we received any

18 notification, and there is not even a single word mentioned about the

19 video being connected with this witness. In other words, we did not

20 prepare to link this video with this witness. We had seen the video

21 before because it was disclosed to us, but we have not prepared because we

22 were not notified that it would be shown with this witness.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Listen, Mr. Kovacic. You said

24 that you were not prepared but you aware of this video. You should have

25 viewed it, and there are clips of people who were wounded, dead, or people

Page 12946

1 being treated. You know that you're going to have a doctor, a surgeon,

2 who is going to testify. Don't tell me that you didn't have any time to

3 get yourself prepared. I don't believe this.

4 Let's move on and play the video.

5 MR. MUNDIS: If I could just briefly explain to the witness for

6 the benefit of his understanding.

7 Dr. Rajkov, as you probably have followed, the Prosecution has

8 been directed to show you this video compilation. It runs approximately

9 one hour. We will watch these various video clips and then at the end of

10 viewing these video clips we may have a very small number of questions for

11 you such as, where were these videos, what's depicted in the videos, et

12 cetera, but we don't anticipate having lengthy questions for you. Do you

13 understand that, sir?

14 We would then ask that the video compilation be shown to the

15 witness.

16 [Videotape played]

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] He's buying time. But this is one

19 very bloody -- and nothing can some as a surprise.

20 [Videotape played]

21 [Videotape played]

22 [Videotape played]

23 [Videotape played]

24 [Videotape played]

25 [Videotape played]

Page 12947

1 [Videotape played]

2 [Videotape played]

3 [Videotape played]

4 [Videotape played]

5 [Videotape played]

6 "[German language spoken]

7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] A street without a chance to escape.

8 "On the left, the Croats. On the right, on the hills, the Serbs.

9 The front line between Muslims and Croats runs right across the city."

10 "[German spoken]

11 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] People were taken to the left

12 side. Muslims were expelled, yes. The people were taken to the left side

13 every day. They killed many of them, up to 250 people. One of them

14 buried without a name, with only a number. Every day they killed many of

15 them. Cultural heritage destroyed in the Serbo-Croatian war. Merciless

16 destruction in the Muslim cemetery next to the blown-up mosque. Cultural

17 heritage -- the Muslims who are entrapped, they fear that there might be

18 an agreement between the Serbs and the Croats to divide Mostar and to

19 expel the Muslims from Mostar. In the meantime the old city has become a

20 second Vukovar, ruins with no protection against shells and artillery

21 attacks. The historical buildings do not have cellared walls. The old

22 bridge is a dangerous, secret path into the Croatian part of the city.

23 "For the Croats Mostar is the capital of their self-styled

24 Republic of Herceg-Bosna. Bread from the west of Herzegovina for the

25 Croats arrives. Paid for -- paid for with Croatian dinars. The products

Page 12948

1 at the marketplace also come from towns in the Western Herzegovina.

2 Before the war there were approximately the same number of Croats and

3 Muslims living in Mostar. Muslim prisoners in the kitchen of the military

4 prison. They're forced labourers who work for the supply of the Croatian

5 army. We have to work in the kitchen; others have to dig trenches at the

6 front. We have to do a lot here. The prisoners whom we film in a

7 showpiece cell are not allowed to speak in front of the camera. Croatian

8 retaliation for Muslim attacks against Croatian positions. We reckon that

9 the Muslims will attempt to conquer Mostar. Since 19 April we know about

10 the orders of their commanders, how and when this part of the city should

11 be conquered. They never gave up this idea, and if they occupy Mostar

12 they might have a chance to take Stolac, too, and advance further to

13 Croatian Neum and the Adriatic Sea. The bloody conflict started in autumn

14 of last year in the Central Bosnia -- in the Central Bosnian town of

15 Prozor, a town with the population structure of 62 Croats [as interpreted]

16 and 37 per cent Muslims prior to the war. Today Prozor is a -- Croatian.

17 The UN controls a fragile cease-fire. Parts of the inner city are

18 destroyed. Most of the Muslims from Prozor are now in Konjic. They were

19 driven out on 28 and 29 August. I think that there were around 3.500 to

20 4.000 women, children, and elderly people. The men are in HVO prisons and

21 prison camps in Capljina, Ljubuski, Mostar, and Prozor. Some were

22 released from Jablanica. They speak of brutal maltreatment. One old man

23 was beaten up severely so that he can hardly walk. One guy threatened to

24 shoot him in the mouth. Those Muslim POWs were aggressors says the

25 Croatian mayor of Prozor. The Muslims - we have documents, the Muslims

Page 12949

1 had a plan to include not only Prozor but also some municipalities from

2 Central Bosnia and Mostar into a Muslim region of Central Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina. So they had a plan to occupy Prozor militarily. The Muslims

4 had that plan, and the attack started in October 1992. At that time, the

5 Muslim units, the units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were

6 defeated. In Central Bosnia, the Croats, as the smallest ethnic group,

7 see them receives as victims, not only from Serbian but also from Muslim

8 attack. 180.000 people surrounded by Muslim units especially in the area

9 of Vitez, Kiseljak, and Vares. 9.000 Croats are in prison camps. A

10 military key position is the town of Gornji Vakuf which is fiercely

11 embattled at the moment by Croats and Muslims. The Croatian part of the

12 town is within firing range of Muslim snipers. Three civilians are still

13 holding out. I still have some potatoes and flour. I cannot get into the

14 town of the everything is closed. I don't know how it is on the other

15 side. My house was burnt down by Muslims. Since then I've been with the

16 soldiers. International aid is also demanded by the Croats for their

17 people in Central Bosnia. They're bitter about the fate of their people

18 who were displaced. While NATO is still reconnoitering over Bosnia, 3.000

19 metres down below the cemetery becomes too small in a war in which the

20 victims very often are also the perpetrators."

21 [Videotape played]


23 "[Voiceover] Woman journalist: The left Muslim side for Muslims a

24 state and for all of those who believe in Bosnia-Herzegovina as a state.

25 The Spanish Battalion is the last hope. A final link before outburst,

Page 12950

1 excess, and extinction, disappearance. In the same way as Sarajevo is a

2 symbol for Bosnia, Mostar is a symbol for a multi-ethnic community, Serbs,

3 Croats, Muslims, Jewish tradesmen under Ottoman Empire. The destruction

4 which was first caused by Serbs last year were driven out by Muslims and

5 Croats has grown ten times larger since the 9th of May. Now those Croats

6 want their part of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As for the Serbs, their Croat

7 argument is clear. Where Croats live is Croat state.

8 "'Blue Helmets': It is beautiful, Mostar, but it was devastated.

9 This is happening because they are stupid. People kill each other here.

10 The thing that I cannot explain to myself is, I cannot explain to myself

11 that they fight against a country and they disagree between themselves

12 but, at the end, let them do whatever they want.

13 "'Blue Helmets 2': Well, no, this is not finished. There is

14 nothing more to be done over here. We'll see. We are doing what we can

15 do to try to make them not fight between themselves although we are still

16 there but they don't do anything to stop. They don't want to listen to

17 us.

18 "Manuel Lopez: We don't know how long we will be staying here.

19 Basically, we came here for a 24-hour guard duty. We always come here at

20 least three times a day worth of rations and, as I already said, the

21 situation is difficult [as interpreted]. This may result in a big mess at

22 any moment.

23 "Woman journalist: Didn't you recently receive special

24 instructions exactly because there is a possibility that you might find

25 yourselves in the situation where you have to respond on fire.

Page 12951

1 "Manuel Lopez: We already know the reason why we arrived here.

2 We are initially forbidden from responding to fire and can only do so if

3 we are being directly shot at and we have no other way to respond, which

4 means that we can respond only if our lives are directly threatened.

5 Being in this type of vehicle we are not bothered by the infantry fire.

6 However, one mortar shell, one destructive shell, can very well flatten us

7 to the ground. If we notice any one directing that kind of weapon towards

8 us, naturally we open fire.

9 "Woman journalist: As Spanish troops testify daily, tragedies are

10 lining up after the other in the face of almost general state of

11 indifference. Like in Mostar where ethnic cleansing is still being

12 carried out, the Croats are intimidating, expelling, or imprisoning

13 Muslims with the aim of remaining in a purely Croat town. That man says

14 how he was expelled last year by the Serbs in Nevesinje, Eastern

15 Herzegovina. He fled to Mostar. Last week his younger son of 18 years of

16 age was killed in fighting. I have another son and daughter left. I

17 thank God because it could have been worse. Or this Bosnian soldier who

18 is fighting for a state which everybody thinks is extinct. With some 30

19 or so bullets per soldier they are facing a much more numerous force,

20 well-equipped, and in solid artillery positions which is holding them in

21 sight from the heights just like the Serbs held them in Sarajevo. We will

22 resist until the end, he says, we no longer believe in peace or in the

23 Croats and we say to them that we will fight to the last man, we have

24 nothing to lose. To isolate them even more Croats from the HVO, a

25 paramilitary organisation, the Croatian Defence Council, trained and

Page 12952

1 supported by Zagreb, are trying unsuccessfully to blow up this bridge

2 reconstructed with humanitarian aid from the US. Due to the increasing

3 number of conflicts along the Neretva in Herzegovina, in the zone which is

4 in their control, in order to support them in their difficult task people

5 who are spending entire days in their armoured vehicles without the

6 possibility of coming out are enduring marathon shifts, 200 new soldiers,

7 70 logistics personnel, and 120 legionnaires have arrived from Spain as

8 reinforcements. Since the massive house to house arrests of Muslims by

9 the Croats from the early dawn, which began last 9th of May, and most of

10 them are still located at the Heliodrom in Mostar the position of the

11 Spanish blue helmets in the zone is very delicate.

12 "Blue Helmets 3: We are currently trying to solve what we can to

13 mediate and to try to avoid that there be further shooting but mostly we

14 are dealing with the civilian population and refugees whom we are rescuing

15 to ensure that people are no longer taken prisoner and to avoid being

16 evicted from houses.

17 "Woman journalist: While playing for time in order to maintain

18 some sort of unstable the us quo, volcanoes of hatred are desperately

19 erupting on both sides it was to no avail that international mediators met

20 representatives of both sides in Medjugorje. The high-level meeting under

21 the protection of the Spanish battalion was attended by the Bosnian and

22 the Croatian presidents. However, the only thing that was achieved was

23 that the importance of specific interests was highlighted, their essential

24 disagreement. The day after the meeting in Siroki Brijeg, Franjo Tudjman,

25 the Croatian president, paid tribute to his financiers from Herzegovina.

Page 12953

1 The powerful lobby from the region had paid for his campaign and is now

2 requesting, in exchange, to be an integral part of Croatia. Upper, where

3 another important region occupied by the Spanish Battalion is from the

4 Adriatic Sea towards Central Bosnia to give escort to the humanitarian aid

5 convoys, which is deserted due to the combats, the blue helmets

6 demonstrate their pacific orientation, already thousands times tested.

7 Jablanica centre of the advance base is under the control of the Muslims

8 but is surrounded by the Croats. In the field tents, Sefer Halilovic, the

9 Bosnian military leader, and Milivoj Petkovic, the Croatian one, often

10 discuss in the presence of the Spanish Colonel Antonio Morales.

11 "Sefer Halilovic: It was a month ago that I asked you and have

12 supplicated you on my knees to help us rescue the people in the mountains,

13 both Muslims and Croats, but you negotiated with the Serbs, you did not

14 realise that first they wanted to finish with us and then to finish with

15 you as well.

16 "Antonio Morales: In one or one and a half hours, already these

17 two sides which are neutrally situated in the region, and they are EC

18 observers and members of the Canarias Tactical Group, who will in that way

19 return to the field to monitor what is happening in order to then be able

20 to inform the mixed committees about what is being accomplished.

21 "Woman journalist: There was only one opportunity to take both

22 sides to see the devastated areas in the region only several kilometres

23 from the base. Both sides were looking at each other with mistrust and

24 preparing for what may follow. The Croats have tanks, mortars, people who

25 are constantly arriving on roads which are under their control. The

Page 12954

1 Muslims who have taken up positions, get weapons very rarely, and when

2 that does happen they hurry to learn how to handle them in groups. On the

3 other side of the mountain, Spanish blue helmets are to reduce tensions

4 between Croats and the Muslims even though there have already been human

5 casualties because of that.

6 "Blue Helmets 4: Whether the memory of the lieutenant Munoz can

7 influence us somehow when it comes to accomplish the mission. I think in

8 reality that it doesn't, that we fulfil the mission the same as always.

9 We take the same precautions, only when we are in the middle of some

10 incident when the bombing or the firing is going on unconsciously always

11 appears the image of the dead people, only when somebody dies then one

12 takes even more precaution, hopefully, which makes us accomplish it. My

13 friend Arturo wanted to be a legionary, he was a legionary, he lived a

14 life of a legionary, and thank God died as a legionary.

15 "Woman journalist: The Tactical Group Canarias Command has to

16 calculate every patrol, escort operation, or detailed inspection

17 reconnaissance. Every mistake could disintegrate/harm the mandate which

18 impedes them to use the weapons only in case of legitimate defence.

19 Lieutenant Colonel Alonso: In the remaining part of the road

20 towards Tarcin, we have an area of conflicts in Konjic. There is a group

21 of snipers that pound the road and do not allow the movement of vehicles,

22 mainly civilians. They did not fire on us as yet but we have already

23 detected reduction of civilian vehicles that move along this road in both

24 directions.

25 "Woman journalist: In the base in Dracevo, the Colonel Morale's

Page 12955

1 men, in the beginning dedicated to control the route towards the river of

2 Neretva, are preparing themselves continuously in the suspended mission.

3 They clean their weapons, which they had assembled before, initiated at

4 any time the patrol of the main corridor and the alternative accesses to

5 Jablanica. Their plan is complex, but they have already been adapted to

6 the place and to a conflict which, although is difficult to understand,

7 they handled it every day with more agility."

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. That completes the video

9 compilation that the Prosecution has put together. I do note the time.

10 Perhaps it might be the appropriate moment for the break.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to take a 20-minute

12 break. We will resume at 10 past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume. Before the

16 give the floor to Mr. Mundis, there are some questions to put to the

17 witness.

18 Sir, after having seen the video with my colleagues, I have a few

19 brief questions to put to you. The first one regards the conditions of

20 life in Mostar and the second question is about the conditions in

21 hospital.

22 We saw people living in Mostar. On the video we saw the shelling,

23 shots, and difficult conditions. Some people lived in basements. This,

24 what we saw in the video, does it correspond to what you yourself

25 experienced when you were there?

Page 12956

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a nutshell, absolutely.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. My second question

3 which is relative to the aspect for which you're here and that is the

4 question of the hospital, the wounded, we saw on several video clips the

5 shots that were recorded in the place when you were treating the wounded.

6 Does this correspond to what you yourself saw and experienced? Did you

7 recognise any of the places? Did you recognise also some of your

8 colleagues, the wounded and those who died as a result of their wounds?

9 Maybe you yourself recognised yourself. I don't know. Maybe you were on

10 one of the video clips.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first thing I have to say is

12 that, whether you believe it or not, I never saw anything of this before

13 so I was taken by surprise. I think that on two occasions I saw myself on

14 one of the video clips. That could have been the man in green trousers

15 tending to somebody's leg. It is very difficult to recognise oneself. I

16 recognised my colleague, a -- Emela Mujic. She is not a surgeon. She is

17 a physiotherapist, and at that time she was pregnant so she couldn't do

18 much. She even delivered her baby during the war in that hospital.

19 I also recognised some of the nurses. Some patients I did

20 recognise more by their diagnosis even if the names were to their faces I

21 won recognise the names.

22 I remember the little girl who was shot at Tekija. Her name was

23 Selma.

24 And as for the conditions, these conditions absolutely

25 corresponded to what I experienced. We worked stripped to the waist

Page 12957

1 because we only had two sets of surgical clothes. When one team finished

2 two surgical procedures we had nothing else to wear.

3 And one more remark that I have to offer, I probably did not

4 notice all the details. There was an oxygen tank that was in one the

5 corners. Yesterday I said that there were no gases or oxygen. It is true

6 that there was no oxygen, but I remember that oxygen tank very well

7 because it was obtained in a very funny way. I remember a conversation

8 when we were discussing whether there was anywhere in the vicinity an auto

9 mechanic that might have oxygen because their equipment also includes an

10 oxygen tank. We asked them to bring us a tank and while we had that

11 oxygen when -- when this was not used, it was there.

12 Maybe somebody also noticed a radiator by a wall. The hygiene

13 institute did have central heating installation but our repairmen, so to

14 speak, were not very professional people. They did know something about

15 central heating and they could never put those radiators in function.

16 Either the radiators were out of repair or something was missing. So the

17 radiators never worked. So during the winter it was very cold. I don't

18 know how the patients survived all that. But as for use we were not far

19 from comfortable. There were no windowpanes. We had some foils on the

20 windows, and all in all that was that.

21 That's what the condition was as it was shown on the video. And

22 it is not without reason that everything is dark on those videos. It is

23 not up to the cameraperson. It was really dark. There was no light.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, please. I fear that there are some

Page 12958

1 things in the transcript that are surprising. For instance, you have said

2 that your mechanics were very well familiar with the equipment but they

3 were not able to repair the radiators. Probably you wanted to say that

4 they were not very skilful.

5 And later on you said that you were not far from comfortable,

6 but -- that is page 45, lines 7 and 8, but it appears in the context that

7 you would rather want to say that you were far from comfortable.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you are reading the English

9 transcript, then you are right. I said they were not skilful. I said

10 that they were not professionals for that kind of work. And as for being

11 comfortable, far from it, I was not comfortable at all. Anything but

12 that.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, do you have any

14 questions to complete your examination in chief?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. No, the Prosecution has no

16 further questions. We believe the videotapes speak for themselves and in

17 order to maximise the time available to the Defence we have no further

18 questions for the witness. We would like to thank Dr. Rajkov for coming.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence has

20 until 7.00. We will have a break at half past 5.00, so we have about an

21 hour and then we will resume after the break.

22 Who wants to start? Mrs. Tomic.

23 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 We don't have any questions for this witness. We have allocated our

25 time -- we have given our time to the Defence of Mr. Stojic.

Page 12959

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 The following Defence team.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have also

4 given our time to Mr. Stojic and Mrs. Nozica.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I didn't have any questions, but given that we saw

8 the video, I think I should take the opportunity to cover some questions.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir. We saw a clip of the Security Council.

11 Could you please tell us to what extent you were involved with

12 negotiations or discussions at the Security Council regarding the events

13 at the time?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, obviously this is

15 not the Security Council. We are not going to take into account this

16 particular video clip when it comes to this witness. We're not going to

17 connect the two.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: That was my whole point, Your Honour, because there

19 are negotiations. There's fighting. There's Mujahedin. There is

20 Vance-Owen, there's Tudjman. There's Izetbegovic. There's the peace

21 plan. There's the Muslim plan or claim that they were trying to get to

22 the Adriatic Sea. There's Gornji Vakuf, there's Central Bosnia, Prozor.

23 There are all sorts of issues that were brought in, and I can go through a

24 series of questions, and I dare say that the good doctor will tell us that

25 he wasn't involved with any of that, including the SpaBat. I don't think

Page 12960

1 that he was embedded with them, to use the term that came out of the Iraqi

2 war, travelling with them. So he cannot tell us anything about that. And

3 I guess the reason I want to point this out is that by bringing all this

4 evidence in, while it may appear that we have the right to cross-examine

5 on it and we're being afforded our right of confrontation, in actuality

6 this is the wrong witness. And in fairness to the Defence, the

7 Prosecution could have merely played the sections regarding the hospital

8 and perhaps portions of Mostar. And I think that's where I think I

9 disagree with the approach of bringing this video in at this point in time

10 because some of those clips could have been played through various other

11 witnesses. But if the Court is telling me that this witness is not

12 competent to answer all of those areas that I just covered, then I'll go

13 to the other sections that I believe the gentleman is competent to testify

14 about.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may answer Mr. Karnavas. We have discussed

16 this. The Chamber is fully aware of what you have just exposed, but we

17 have also seen that the range covered is so broad that probably not any

18 single witness would have been competent to cover all the areas. We

19 thought it's better to have one who is competent in part of it. But there

20 remains -- there remains an open question and we grant that.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour, but I have to tell you, my

22 anxiety level is way up high. I mean, I came in rather calm today but now

23 I'm not so sure that I can maintain my equilibrium given the amount of

24 evidence that came in through that video, much of it which was triple and

25 quadruple hearsay. But with that qualification from you, Your Honour, I

Page 12961

1 feel slightly better. Not much more, but slightly better and I'll

2 continue now with the relevant portions.

3 Q. Again, sir, good afternoon.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, you're saying that

5 you're feeling a bit better now and I hope that is true. You have told us

6 that after the video I asked two very precise questions about the

7 conditions of the life in Mostar and the hospital. I didn't ask any other

8 questions.


10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And it is very significant.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand. I understand, Mr. President and I

12 would have been -- my comfort level would have been quite better if you

13 had just told the Prosecutor, That's all you could show. But I can

14 understand the Court wanting to see everything because of the time

15 constraints, and I understand and I appreciate your questions,

16 Your Honour. They were right on target.

17 Q. I just have four points. Sir, yesterday you indicated that as of

18 August 1992 you had a military identification card; is that correct?

19 A. As of August 1992, yes.

20 Q. And it was because you had that identification card that allowed

21 you to go from the west to the east side. I believe that was your

22 testimony yesterday, that -- correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Now, that -- that military ID, that military identification

25 card, was that an HVO? Was that army BiH? Was it something else?

Page 12962

1 A. It was an army of BiH ID.

2 Q. Okay. And at the time what rank did you hold?

3 A. I was never given a rank, even after serving in the JNA. After

4 that, I was just a foot soldier. There were no other ranks that were

5 registered with my name.

6 Q. Okay. Were you in a particular unit?

7 A. I was not a member of any unit. I belonged to what was known at

8 the time as a legacy of the former JNA. I was a member of the Medical

9 Corps.

10 Q. Sir, that would be the Medical Corps of the 4th Corps of the army

11 of BiH? I mean, whoever was located in Mostar at the time.

12 A. I suppose that there was a system of hierarchy. It was the

13 Medical Corps of the 1st Mostar Battalion. That's what it was known as in

14 1992.

15 Q. All right. Now, back in August of 1992, were the headquarters of

16 the ABiH, were they in the Vranica building? You know, when you first got

17 your identification, your military ID. Yes.

18 A. 1992? Truth be told, I don't know whether at the time it was at

19 the Vranica building. Sometime later on I did go there when we were

20 supposed to take over the signalsman when we went to the front lines. I

21 received my ID from -- in East Mostar from one of the admin workers, if

22 that is what you're asking me about.

23 Q. Okay. Well, the reason I asked is because I was trying to follow

24 your testimony from yesterday, and as I -- as I understood it, and correct

25 me if I'm wrong or if I'm misstating anything, that on -- on May 6th you

Page 12963

1 went to work and you were -- you had at that time 24-hour shifts; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes. The shift was 24 hours.

4 Q. And as I understand it that on the -- that on the 7th or on the

5 6th you might have contacted the headquarters of Vranica but it was on the

6 7th, on May 7th, that you spoke with an individual by the name of Ramo, I

7 believe, who might have been your supervisor; is that correct?

8 A. In the morning on the 7th of May, I spoke to the chief of the

9 Medical Corps whose name was Ahmo.

10 Q. Okay. I was reading it from the transcript, but thank you for

11 that. And that, by the way, Your Honours, can be found on page 75 to 76

12 of the transcript from yesterday.

13 And I -- as I understand it, it was on the 7th that you were told

14 that the situation was tense or -- and that best to stay on the east side;

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And so at least Ahmo or somebody above him knew that something

18 was -- was in the works as early as May 7th.

19 A. Yes, either him or somebody above him or next to him noticed or

20 knew that the situation was not good.

21 Q. Okay. Now, I take it at that point in time you didn't ask him

22 for clarification, like what is -- what's happening? What's going to

23 happen?

24 A. I didn't ask him for a very clear reason. He informed me even

25 earlier on when we met that we should not speak about everything on the

Page 12964

1 phone because we had the same connections to the same communications

2 centre. What I'm saying is that both the army and the HVO used the same

3 lines of communications and that's why I was advised not to say everything

4 on the phone or ask questions on the phone.

5 Q. Okay. So when you communicated with Ahmo, this was over the

6 telephone? Okay. All right.

7 A. Yes. It was an induction telephone.

8 Q. All right, sir. So it wasn't a tete-a-tete, in other words?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. Okay. And where was Ahmo at the time? Where was he

11 located physically?

12 A. When you speak to somebody on the phone, you can't be sure where

13 that person is. Am I correct? Especially if you are not the one who

14 dialed that other person. What I knew was that Ahmo and some of the

15 colleagues who were in charge of the Medical Corps were in the Vranica

16 building. When I was there they were in one part of the basement below

17 the restaurant. They were there. So I assume that I was speaking to the

18 man who was there at the time.

19 Q. Okay. And you, physically, you must have been on the other side

20 since you were finishing up your shift having started on the 6th and now

21 this would have been I guess the morning or whatever sometime on the 7th;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Yes. That was in the morning around 7.00 when the shifts

24 changed.

25 Q. But you physically, I just want to make sure whether I have this

Page 12965

1 picture. I'm not trying -- there are to trick questions, okay? I'm just

2 trying to picture. Somebody is in the Vranica building we don't know but

3 presumably somebody is there. You are finishing up your shift so you must

4 be on the east side, okay?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Right?

7 A. I was in the hygiene institute.

8 Q. And that person was telling you, best to stay on that side?

9 A. Precisely so.

10 Q. And I take it you believed him. You believed him, and that's

11 exactly what you did. You stayed on that side.

12 A. I stayed at work and I also communicated to the others who came to

13 replace me and the others who came to replace those others to stay put, to

14 stay there.

15 Q. Because that was -- in other words, that was the signal. I'm

16 using this term, but that was the message to pass along to everybody, stay

17 on -- on the east side as of the 7th of May, 1993, because the situation

18 is tense and something may happen; right? That's a fair characterisation,

19 would it be correct?

20 A. Well, I don't know what you mean by signal to everybody. My work,

21 our work, was not to inform everybody on the east side. It was just the

22 recommendation by the chief of the Medical Corps for the Medical Corps as

23 to what to do in the following next few days. That's what I know. That's

24 all. The long and the short --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying was that a

Page 12966

1 recommendation or was that an instruction? Because you can recommend

2 things to somebody and the person who receives the recommendation can do

3 whatever, and when you are instructed to do something you have to obey.

4 So what was -- what was it that you received over the telephone?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will tell you literally how it

6 sounded. It was said, "It will be best for you to stay put. And the

7 others who come after you should also stay there." End of quote. Those

8 are the words and the sentences I remember very well, the couple of

9 sentences that I really remember well.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour -- go ahead.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Doctor, the advice to stay there can have two

12 motives. One is that it would be safer for you, and the other is that it

13 is expected that a lot of work will come.

14 You have told us that you were told it is better for you to stay

15 there. So do I understand you correctly that you did not hear this as

16 some sort of alarm, increased readiness, increasing the possible function

17 of the hospital?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I personally, and I repeat I

19 personally did not perceive that as a -- as alarm. I don't know how to

20 describe that, what word to use. I took it as advice, as a recommendation

21 that it would be best for me to stay because of some possible events which

22 I could not even foresee, that something would happen like it happened on

23 the 9th of May. We were all astounded.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to

25 Mr. Karnavas who is asking the same questions that I wanted to ask.

Page 12967

1 You are -- you have just said that something was probably going to

2 happen, some events are expected to happen. Mr. Karnavas will explore

3 that, I suppose.


5 Q. Okay. Well, first of all let me -- help me out here, because I'm

6 a little confused after the last question. First you said you were

7 instructed over the phone to be careful because you knew they were using

8 the same phones, ABiH and HVO. So now we're talking somewhat of a coded

9 message to you, are we not? It has a cryptic meaning to it, does it? All

10 right.

11 A. I would not say that it was a code. I apologise. Allow me to

12 finish. This was a customary, friendly conversation that we could have

13 had any time. The thing was that over the phone I never received any

14 order from him in the way he is a commander and I'm a soldier obeying

15 orders. We were just talking, and I suppose he just wanted to avoid

16 providing specific information, military information. That is possible,

17 but I cannot be sure of that. I was not a military unit. We did not

18 carry arms. I was not in a position to receive any orders that I would

19 then carry out.

20 Q. I understand, and right now it's a little bit like trying to read

21 the coffee cup, it seems to me, if you get my drift. But --

22 A. Maybe that's you. Maybe you are the one who is using coffee cups.

23 I can only tell you what I was told and it just so happens that I remember

24 really well what was told.

25 Q. I understand. And I guess the point that I'm trying -- and then,

Page 12968

1 of course, you didn't -- after working 24 hours you didn't go back to the

2 west side to at least take a shower, sleep, get some clothes, take some

3 rest. You stayed put. You stayed on the east side and you told others to

4 do the same; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now let me move on to the next point. And I

7 don't presume to know a whole lot, and maybe I am reading the coffee cups,

8 but at some point yesterday you said all of a sudden there was a -- and

9 this was on page 96 from yesterday, that suddenly somebody unloaded a

10 large quantity of pain-killers. It might not have been morphine, but it

11 was pain-killers. Do you recall saying that, sir, yesterday?

12 A. I remember, and if you want me to provide you details of that or

13 the system of supply, I can provide you with those.

14 Q. We're going to go step-by-step.

15 A. [In English] Step-by-step.

16 Q. All righty. Thank you. Now, could you tell me was that before or

17 after this warning, this cautionary recommendation that you received. Was

18 it before or, you know, after May 7th that somebody unloaded pain-killers.

19 If you recall. If you don't recall, that's fine.

20 A. [Interpretation] A remark, please, if I may. I personally have

21 the impression that you are leading me to say something that you want to

22 prove, that you're speculating about certain things and -- allow me to

23 finish. It was not without reason that I offered to describe our system

24 of supplies, and if I provide you with these details, then you will be

25 clear on how things stood.

Page 12969

1 It just so happens that for that particular box of medicines --

2 Q. Let me stop you here.

3 A. Very well.

4 Q. You had a very patient and competent Prosecutor lead you through

5 your direct. I just want to establish the point, and the point in time is

6 when did this -- somebody unload all sorts of pain-killers? And I don't

7 think you need to read into what I'm asking. I'm a pretty nice guy.

8 There's nothing nefarious about my questions. I just want to know. Was

9 it before or after May 9th? And let the Judges, they will decide what, if

10 anything, to make with this information. Pretty straightforward

11 A. [In English] Just like that?

12 Q. Just like that. I didn't get the --

13 A. [Interpretation] It was before. It was before the 9th of May.

14 Q. There we go. Now we can move on to the next section, the next

15 point.

16 A. We can.

17 Q. Okay. And feel free to answer before you get the full

18 translation, since I know you speak English.

19 I want to talk about the generator because it kind of piqued my

20 interest a little bit, I have to tell you. Yesterday, when you talked

21 about this generator --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute Mr. Karnavas. I

23 believe you will continue in the same sense but we have another problem.

24 The questions you're asking I wanted to ask them myself and it is very

25 well you that you have asked them.

Page 12970

1 Sir, the Judges before you would like to resolve something.

2 You're not the first witness to whom we have put such a question. We

3 would like to know if before the 9th of May there was an attack that was

4 staged by the BiH army against the HVO. We know that on the 9th of May it

5 was the HVO that attacked the area under control of the BiH army, but was

6 that attack something that was of a general nature? And yesterday you've

7 told us that in response to the Prosecutor's question that when you were

8 there on the 7th of May, my question was whether this was maybe

9 mobilisation of the BiH structures because something was brewing and was

10 envisaged to happen, because when there are preparations for an attack,

11 the first thing that happens is that everybody is mobilised and the

12 Medical Corps prepares drugs, medicines, and so on and so forth.

13 You have indicated to us that you were asked to stay put, and the

14 question is about the analgesics that were in place at the moment. My

15 question is very simple, and I'm not going to waste any more time to put

16 the question to you. Before the 9th of May in your knowledge, was there a

17 plan on the part of your army, because you were a member of the BiH army,

18 to attack the HVO troops? Was there such a plan in place?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a question for a higher

20 level, but I can say what I know, what I know. The Medical Corps, apart

21 from what had been done, namely this recommendation advised that it would

22 be best for you to stay there, you and the rest who are coming. That was

23 the only thing that was done. Later on during the course of the war I had

24 the opportunity of seeing if something was being planned somewhere that

25 some kind of mobile groups were organised, surgery points or something

Page 12971

1 like that where strikes were expected, attacks. Let me use a bit of this

2 military terminology that I had occasion to hear then. But on the 6th,

3 7th, 8th, and 9th, that was not done. The only thing that was done was we

4 should stay where we were, we from the Medical Corps. No one else did

5 anything.

6 After the 9th of May it seemed crazy to me, if I may use that

7 word, that none of the military, and I saw them in the street, knew a

8 thing. They were not getting ready for anything. They didn't know

9 anything. It was only us there on the 6th and 7th and 8th, and I really

10 did wonder what was going on. Why am I getting ready for something if

11 nothing is being prepared and no one is going to do anything? That's why

12 I said we were astounded on the morning of the 9th of May.

13 I sincerely had the impression that we would be floored within a

14 minute.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Karnavas.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. And of course you were not one of Mr. Arif Pasalic's confidante's,

18 were you? In other words, he didn't confide in you for -- for military

19 advice or to tell you what would happen in advance, what he was planning?

20 He didn't do that, did he? Just an answer, yes or no.

21 A. No.

22 Q. In fact, even the lower commanders below him didn't confide in you

23 as to what they intended to do or what they were planning on doing. They

24 didn't say, "Hey, Doctor, let me tell you what we're about to do." They

25 didn't say that to you. You're shaking --

Page 12972

1 A. To me, no.

2 Q. Exactly. Exactly. All right. Now, let's talk about this

3 generator. That's my last point, okay? And it seems to me, if I can

4 recall what you said yesterday, you said even before the conflict is when

5 you got this generator. Words to that effect. Do you recall? And I

6 believe that can be found on page 102. That the generator came your way,

7 this sort of Good Samaritan, if we can call him that, by serendipity just

8 appeared and said, "Hey, by the way, there's a generator. It's up there.

9 You know, in case you need it." And that was before the conflict.

10 Am I characterising your testimony fairly?

11 A. Up to a point.

12 Q. Okay. Okay. Let's go step-by-step.

13 A. All right.

14 Q. First, it was before the conflict? Yes or no?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Secondly, this gentleman just showed up and said, "By the way,

17 there is a generator." He was an unexpected, sort of like an angel coming

18 up -- showing up and saying, "Hey, by the way, there's a generator just in

19 case you might need it for electricity." He just showed up uninvited,

20 unsolicited, you know right?

21 A. No. No. No.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. He did not say there's a generator just if you might need it. We

24 were talking about the situation. This is a man I know by sight, and then

25 we started talking. The idea cropped up and we actually carried it

Page 12973

1 through.

2 Q. Okay. Well, hold on because I'm confused now. Yesterday you

3 seemed to indicate that this -- that this gentleman shows up and all of a

4 sudden springs to you this knowledge, gives you this knowledge that there

5 is a generator that is someplace at that could be used; correct?

6 A. He was passing by there. We talked and he said that there was a

7 generator.

8 Q. Right. And that's exactly what you said -- you said yesterday,

9 and I'm quoting I believe on page 129 -- are we that far? 1.291. You

10 said, "Now the electricity situation is as follows. At the very

11 beginning, even before the conflict began, as luck would have it" -

12 serendipity - "a man, I don't know who he was, he happened to pass by the

13 building and met me and he said, 'Have you got a generator?'" Like I

14 said, a good Samaritan, angel, call it whatever you want. Someone is

15 passing by, you don't know, the timing is right, and says, "By the way,"

16 some people say "good morning," some people say, "good afternoon, how are

17 you, how's the wife and children." He says, "do you need a generator?"

18 Just like that.

19 A. I think he said good morning before he asked me that, and a few

20 more words too.

21 Q. All right. Now, can you tell us how -- how close before May 9th

22 this might have been?

23 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps even a month before that. That is

24 quite possible.

25 Q. Okay. And it could have been a few days before that as well.

Page 12974

1 That's quite possible.

2 A. No. No.

3 Q. All right. And that generator was someplace and then you and

4 others managed to get it down to where eventually it stayed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, the situation in Mostar even at that time, about

7 a month before, let's just say, let's just say, I'm not buying it, but

8 let's just say it was a month before May 9th. Even a month before that

9 time a generator of that nature, large, ability to produce lots of

10 electricity and what have you, must have been a precious commodity. Would

11 you agree with me on that? Precious commodity for the local government

12 such as it was, certainly the military leaders. Would you agree with me

13 on that?

14 A. Again I have to say up to a point. If you have normal

15 installations that work properly, you're not going to give it much

16 thought. I always had the impression that over there in that situation

17 nobody thought about the reality of war in particular. Everybody thought

18 this is just going on for a couple of days. It's going to end. There's

19 not going to be a war. I'm talking about 1992 onwards. This system,

20 things will get along. That was what was wrong in our work. What was

21 good in our work of the Medical Corps, that is, in particular, or rather

22 the medical people generally, fortunately there were a few people who had

23 ideas, the strength, and the willingness to actually carry through what

24 they thought of and actually complete what they had envisaged.

25 Q. Okay. Sir, if I understand you correctly, and again correct me if

Page 12975

1 I'm misstating anything, you seem to be the type that would, at least the

2 military and the local government didn't have any use for that generator

3 because they had plenty of electricity at that point in time, or at least

4 sufficient to cover their needs, which may be one explanation as to why

5 that generator was sitting there all by its lonesome waiting to be plucked

6 by someone like your -- like the hospital.

7 A. You need an answer?

8 Q. Well, yeah. That was a question.

9 A. Oh. As for that generator in particular was concerned, I think

10 that this was the problem: It was in a room in a building that is used

11 for pumping water out for the waterworks. This is a building which is

12 closed otherwise, and no one has the faintest idea what's in there because

13 it is off limits. So you really have to be very fortunate to come across

14 someone who knows that that kind of thing exists there and that you can

15 find that kind of thing out from that person.

16 Secondly, you need to have some kind of technical equipment to

17 transport this because this was very big and very heavy, incredibly big

18 and heavy. Fortunately there was a truck there, a Deutz, and one, two,

19 three, that's how we got the generator. Had I not said "let's," they

20 wouldn't have brought it I'm sure, because really people considered me to

21 be crazy for having initiated like that. Like, "What do we need that for?

22 Look at all of this?" Some of my colleagues reacted that way.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor, we're not going to waste

25 minutes on this story of the generator, but the main question to be put to

Page 12976

1 you on this is this: If an attack is being prepared, it is only logical

2 that military structures think that the hospital may play an important

3 part in treating wounded, and the military authority must always -- also

4 think that if there is no electricity the hospital might need a generator.

5 Therefore, in the framework of preparing an attack, would it be logical to

6 provide a hospital with a generator? If your generator came before the

7 9th of May, could this generator be part of a general plan? So all is

8 said is my question. What is your answer?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for that answer, I can present my

10 opinion and this is what it would be, roughly: Had there not been for two

11 people within the medical service who had a bit of the ability to think

12 logically, not soldierly logic because we're not soldiers. Everything

13 that happened in Mostar would have been far worse for the population had

14 those two men not said a lot earlier in 1992 that the Medical Corps at

15 that time in the southern camp next to arms depot, and I said it would be

16 crazy for us to be there because if a shell were to fall then we would

17 explode and your shells, too. And you know what the commander said to me

18 then? He said, "Are you afraid?" So they really did not think along

19 those lines at all, that the staff and the Medical Corps should go

20 underground. Unfortunately the fighters themselves have to remain on the

21 surface or in trenches, in the best possible circumstances.

22 So we could either put the Medical Corps into the cellar of the

23 institute for hygiene, and this was a big-time problem because you had to

24 get approval from the commander and the commander was not happy at all

25 when he heard that we wanted to move from those buildings where he had his

Page 12977

1 troops and that is the southern camp that far away into the centre where

2 the centre -- where the building was sort of a godsend. Well, sort of to

3 be a sort of medical centre. It has different entrances. It's in the

4 right spot. And I always said that is godsend. Why would we be out in a

5 meadow?

6 But we really did have problems. It was very hard for us to carry

7 through what was perfectly logical. I thought throughout, and I still

8 think that this military structure, so to speak, did not think logically.

9 Well, I cannot say medically but in terms of someone who is waging war. I

10 mean, they were not thinking logically either in 1992 and in 1993. And

11 even then on the 9th of May, if you wish.

12 If we had not done what we had done with our own hands and through

13 our own goodwill -- no one helped us. We did not get any help from the

14 military or from the civilian defence to put sandbags on the windows of

15 the hygiene institute. I did that for four days with my technician. I

16 brought in sandbags and put them up on the windows. Nobody helped us.

17 That is sad, to put it mildly.

18 If they expected an attack or if they were planning something --

19 no. No, no, no. That is simply inconceivable. The two do not go

20 together. A plan and what we did with our own hands, you cannot put the

21 two together.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In one word, this generator just

23 came there, got there according to you without, as far as you know, being

24 part of a general plan.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, it was not part of a

Page 12978

1 general plan. If there was a general plan, the generator was just a lucky

2 circumstance for them if they were planning anything.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Karnavas, you

4 need how much more time?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Just a couple questions, Your Honour.

6 Q. As I understand it, somewhere around June 30th, 1993, is when the

7 electricity went out on the east side; is that correct? Somewhere around

8 that period of time?

9 A. If you allow me to say roughly after that on the 30th there was

10 still electricity, I remember that day because there was still a lot of

11 activity going on.

12 Q. All right. And a moment ago, just to pick up on the last question

13 that was asked by the president, you seem to be giving opinions with

14 respect to military logic, you having been trained as a physician.

15 Correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You weren't -- well --

18 A. No. No. Please let me answer. Not in relation to military logic

19 but some kind of war logic. That's what I said. I don't think I said

20 military. There is a difference. I'm not a military expert, but I watch

21 war movies.

22 Q. Okay. All right. And I guess from listening to your answer

23 you're not accusing anybody of using logic. In other words, from what you

24 saw, there were a lot of illogical things going on.

25 A. Yes.

Page 12979

1 Q. So sometimes you're basing your opinions based on that illogic,

2 perhaps giving credit to those folks that they are indeed logical to start

3 with. If you get my drift.

4 A. Can this be repeated, because I heard segments of the

5 interpretation so I don't have a full sentence sort of.

6 Q. Well, it seems to me that you're trying --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, put your question

8 again because it is rather complicated. I myself was a bit lost.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I will.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know that you're going to put

11 it again.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll put it in a simple --

13 Q. I think it would appear, sir, that you're giving credit to some

14 folks within the military structure of actually applying logic to their

15 decisions or actually being logical in themselves. You know, having a

16 clear, logical thinking pattern before doing or carrying out activities?

17 A. What I heard just now is a question that should be answered by

18 saying no. On the contrary. What I had as my basic opinion then and even

19 now too what was going on from a military point of view and from the point

20 of view of military administration, ideas, if I can call them that way, I

21 don't know what their official name is, very often they are illogical,

22 pointless, not to say stupid sometimes, especially from the point of view

23 of my service, that is to say the Medical Corps.

24 Q. Exactly that's the point I was trying to make because now we're

25 asking you to sort of read between -- read the tea leaves as to what

Page 12980

1 exactly they were intending to do based on -- on their logic and based on

2 your lack of knowledge and understanding of what they may have been up to.

3 Isn't that what we're doing here right now?

4 A. It's the way I said it was, that for my service, for the Medical

5 Corps, things were not moving along well enough. Why not? Because I

6 think that they were not using their own heads to think as they should

7 have. No one ever asked us anything and, after all, we should know what

8 is relevant as far as our line of work is concerned. We should have been

9 asked for that, and we were taken sort of for granted. There's plenty of

10 doctors. We can always find doctors. That is what always bothered me.

11 It was never raised to the right level of a proper service where you have

12 subordination, where you have to listen to the person who is in charge,

13 especially as far as professional things are concerned.

14 My chief of the Medical Corps was my colleague. I don't think --

15 I personally don't think that he had completed any kind of military

16 school or had any military knowledge. He was a colleague of mine, a

17 physician.

18 Q. Well, based on that last answer it sounds like the command was

19 rather indifferent to the conditions that under which the military doctors

20 such as yourself had to work. Perhaps they should have been listening to

21 you more often and seeking your advice.

22 A. Yes. They were rather indifferent. Especially up until the 9th

23 of May they were rather different, as if we weren't there. From the 9th

24 onwards things were so complex, so difficult, so dangerous that the basic

25 thing was whether you'd reach a certain point alive or not. If you did

Page 12981

1 not, you will end up as a wounded person or as a dying person at the

2 hygiene institute. So that was the most important place in town. It was

3 only after the 9th of May that they realised that that was the most

4 important place in town. By the way, that is one of the very few cellars

5 or basements in town where you can seek shelter, on the eastern side that

6 is.

7 Q. Sir, I want to thank you very much for coming here to give your

8 evidence. Thank you.

9 A. [In English] You're welcome.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we still have 10 minutes

11 before the break. Who wants to start for 10 minutes and then we can

12 continue after the break. Ms. Nozica, please.

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm going to

14 start and then I'm going to continue. Thank you.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'm just going to ask you a

17 question that is related to the question put by my colleague and then

18 we're going to move on to questions that only pertain to your own line of

19 work, your own profession. Before this conflict, before the 9th of May,

20 where was the war hospital on the east bank? You talked about how the

21 building was found and equipped. How early before the 9th of May did it

22 start functioning that way?

23 A. You know what I have to tell you? What the most important thing

24 is, the most important problem in relation to my hospital --

25 Q. Sorry, Mr. Rajkov. My time is limited. I have many subjects.

Page 12982

1 A. Yes, I know that.

2 Q. In your statement, you said that roughly this happened a month

3 before the conflict. Do you agree?

4 A. I agree but that is not going to be a complete and accurate

5 answer. I know what you're going to ask later on.

6 Q. Thank you. I'm not going to ask you anything else in that regard.

7 Please, we have a serious technical problem here. We have to pause

8 between question and answer so that we would not be warned by --

9 A. The interpreters.

10 Q. It is for the benefit of all the people who do not speak our

11 language. I speak a bit fast, but then please pause before you answer my

12 question.

13 Please, yesterday in response to the questions put bit Honourable

14 Judges you said that you were at a lower rank and that you did not have

15 any contact with doctors from the HVO, the war hospital in Mostar. Am I

16 right? I'm going to ask you that we look at some documents -- you said

17 "yes," but you will have to speak up. Your answer was not recorded. You

18 said "yes," is that right?

19 A. Yes. Yes. That was the previous question, whether I was at a

20 lower rank and that I didn't have any contacts with my colleagues on the

21 western side. Is that right? Yes.

22 Q. I'm going to ask you that we look at certain documents. We will

23 do this rather fast up until the break. In terms of providing medical

24 aid, that is what the HVO gave to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

25 Mostar. Perhaps you are going to remember some of these medicaments and

Page 12983

1 some much these situations. Is that all right?

2 A. We can have a look why not.

3 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to give the witness the binder with

4 documents that we've prepared for him. 2D 00320 is the document I would

5 like to have on e-court, please. Witness --

6 MS. EGELS: I don't want to interrupt my learned colleague

7 although we have the list the documents weren't released to us until now

8 so would you have a spare copy of these documents, please?

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, as for hard copies

10 and paper, no. We understood that it was our obligation that we should

11 provide you with documents in electronic form. That is what we've done.

12 I am sorry. We have been preparing this up until the very beginning, so

13 technically speaking we could not have made a paper copy.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, just out of courtesy

15 you could have prepared a batch for the Prosecution. When they have

16 documents, they do give you copies, hard copies. I'm going to give them

17 my documents, for the sake of fairness. I'm going to give them my

18 documents.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need for you

20 to do that. I will provide my own copy.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Go ahead.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 I have to tell you, since I have been cautioned, that I was not

24 behaving properly, that most Defence teams do that in electronic form, and

25 we have been doing the same thing as of late. Until now we have been

Page 12984

1 providing hard copies. So the document is 00320.

2 Q. Sir, you see this order. I think that we all have it in front of

3 us. From Tugomir Gveric, the order from Tugomir Gveric. Have you seen is

4 that? I'm asking you.

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. So the date is the 6th of June, 1993. The central warehouse of

7 medicaments of the Main Staff of the HZ HB issued an order: "Issue

8 medicaments as requested by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina," and then it

9 says a specific list is attached. "The provided quantities should be

10 sufficient for seven days." Is that right? Is that what is written here?

11 Let's move on.

12 A. Well, it says either accessible or another word; there's two

13 overlapping each other.

14 Q. Now we're going to analyse the medicaments and perhaps you will

15 find this more familiar. 2D 00321 is the document I'm asking for.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note we cannot see any documents at

17 all.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I have been warned that we do not see

19 anything on the ELMO. Sorry, not ELMO but e-court. E-court doesn't seem

20 to be working. I will move on for the sake of saving time because the

21 Prosecutors and the Judges have the documents now.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note we do not have the documents.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation].

24 Q. Have you found in?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12985

1 Q. So this is dated the 8th of June. The war hospital of the HVO of

2 Mostar, the central warehouse HZ HB, and now there is this shipment of

3 medicaments that is prepared for the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you

4 remember that this happened roughly around that time? That you perhaps

5 you received this shipment of medicine after this date? You see what this

6 is all about and you will understand it better than I do.

7 A. Yes, I see what this is all about, but that I remember this kind

8 of paper.

9 Q. Sir, you said and I repeat that you were at a lower level and you

10 did not communicate. I'm asking you whether you remember that the

11 hospital received this kind of quantify of medicine at the time. I'm not

12 asking you whether you saw the document.

13 A. I beg your pardon. I misunderstood what you were saying. Well, I

14 could conclude that if I find something very specific, that perhaps

15 appeared before my very own eyes then.

16 Q. Please have a look.

17 A. I am having a look in detail at that. I cannot give you any

18 guarantees because I do not see any specific medicine or medicament which

19 is something that I would remember having seen with my own eyes. This is

20 regular stuff, antibiotics, and so on and so forth, and Kanesten. That is

21 used in gynaecology. I don't see that it's a very big quantity. If we're

22 talking about medicine boxes it's not too much. I don't know I cannot say

23 yes I can no the say no. There were such medicaments in infirmaries and

24 in the hospital.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to ask if we

Page 12986

1 could move in -- if we could take the break now. I guess that it would be

2 best to resolve the problem of e-court during the break.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

4 continues] ... 20-minute break. We'll start back then.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 5.35 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, the interpreters are

8 kindly asking you to slow down because they have a problem following you.

9 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 Q. They said also that it is a bigger problem that my question and

11 your answer often overlap and they have asked us to make a pause between

12 my question and your answer.

13 Before the break we looked at the document that is still on the

14 screen, which is a list of medicines dated 8 June, 1993.

15 Tell me, did you know that somebody from the command of the 4th

16 Corps approximately around that time asked from the HVO services amounting

17 to medical assistance starting with medicines, transportation, or any such

18 thing? Did you know anything about that?

19 A. I personally never heard of any such thing.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would now like to look at document

21 2D 00322.

22 Q. Were you able to locate that document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As we can see, this is actually a request by the command of the

25 4th Corps dated 9 June; is that correct?

Page 12987

1 A. Yes, that is what it says in the heading.

2 Q. And the signature is by Mr. Arif Pasalic. There is no doubt about

3 that, or somebody signed on his behalf, and his name is typed out; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Can we look at some important things in this request, and for the

9 transcript I'm going to read them. This is a request. This says in the

10 first sentence, please pay attention: "Considering that you announced

11 through the media that there would be medical cooperation and help to the

12 wounded and sick, we are addressing you with the requirement."

13 My first question is this: Did you hear the time that the Medical

14 Corps of the HVO used the media to announce that they were prepared to

15 extend help to the wounded and sick on the east side?

16 A. The only thing that might have happened could have been on the

17 radio. I listened to the radio, but I did not hear any such thing.

18 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that Mr. Arif Pasalic sent this

19 request based on the announcement on the media regardless of what the

20 source of the announcement was for him at the time?

21 A. If that was the case, it would be a reasonable act because this

22 was a humanitarian person -- purpose and any course of action was only

23 welcome, and if you ask me, I would have also reacted in the same way.

24 Q. When we're talking -- I'm waiting for the interpretation. When we

25 are talking about things being reasonable or not, are you talking about

Page 12988

1 the reason of the HVO Medical Corps or the reasoning of Mr. Arif Pasalic

2 who accepted such an assistance with this letter? Who do you have in

3 mind?

4 A. If what we have before us is true, then both would be reasonable

5 things to do.

6 Q. And now we shall see what is requested here in this letter. Under

7 1 it says: "Promptly secure a free and guaranteed passage or change of

8 shift for volunteer surgical teams or pending the agreement team from the

9 city wartime hospital with the protection of International Commission of

10 the Red Cross and UNPROFOR." Is that correct?

11 The second item I'm not going to go through everything because you

12 have the document before you so you can read for yourself the things I

13 don't read aloud. "We are kindly asking of you to deliver a list of

14 medicines and medical supplies." And the third request: "Since we have

15 one ambulance, we are kindly asking you to provide us with two ambulances

16 or please return to us the medical vehicle Mercedes diesel that was taken

17 from us." Is that correct?

18 A. Yes. I'm laughing because I know exactly which Mercedes is in

19 question. It had the Mostar licence plate.

20 Q. Are you in doubt this is not a Mostar document?

21 A. Let me wait for the interpretation. It says "Mostar." In Mostar

22 I suppose this is what they did, but I suppose that it is about Mostar. I

23 know -- I just happened to know about the Mercedes. I know when this

24 Mercedes was taken from us.

25 Q. Let me just remind you and ask you to pay attention to whom the

Page 12989

1 letter is addressed. It says the HVO medical headquarters for the

2 commander of the HVO Mostar wartime hospital. Would you agree that both

3 were in Mostar?

4 A. The Medical Corps of the HVO, it would be logical that it was in

5 Mostar, whereas the war hospital of the HVO is the hospital that used to

6 be called Safet Mujic hospital, and then it was transformed into the HVO

7 war hospital at the beginning of 1992.

8 Q. And it was in Mostar?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. Can we look at the answer of the chief of the Medical Corps dated

11 11/6. 2D 00323 is the number of the document. The date is 11 June. Can

12 we look at that answer together, please? Have you found it? 323 is the

13 number.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Again, Defence Department, the Medical Corps and the answer is

16 dated 11 June. It says "regarding the request of the command of the 4th

17 Corps," and reference is made to the previous document, "we are duty-bound

18 to answer the delivery of the list of medicines and medical supplies is

19 being drafted. The medical supplies are ready and waiting for transport

20 to the left bank by the assistance of UNPROFOR. As to your request for

21 ambulance vehicles, we have to remind you that during the aggression

22 against the city of Mostar you destroyed 19 ambulance vehicles, wounding

23 six drivers and killing one. We're not able to comply with your request

24 even though we would like to do so, because we ourselves do not have

25 enough vehicles."

Page 12990

1 Further down there is an offer. I would like to know whether

2 you've ever heard of this offer. This is very important. The first thing

3 it says regarding the team of doctors, specialists, which you are

4 requesting: "We have to inform you that there are no volunteers among the

5 Muslim staff."

6 And the next sentence, please. "Since the conditions for the care

7 of the civilians and soldiers on our side are much better than yours, we

8 hereby ask you for the umpteenth time to send all your wounded and sick to

9 the HVO war hospital where they will enjoy the same treatment as our

10 soldiers in keeping with the Hippocratic Oath and ethics. The Main Staff

11 of the HVO Medical Corps, and I personally guarantee that the equal

12 treatment will be provided."

13 Mr. Rajkov, did you ever hear that such a proposal was put to your

14 hospital and the wounded who were treated there? And when you say your

15 hospital, I also imply all the other facilities that existed. Did you

16 ever hear of such a proposal?

17 A. To our hospital or our patients, no. For example, not me. If by

18 saying "my hospital" you're implying my colleagues and the patients, that

19 we ever heard of that or that our patients ever heard of that, my answer

20 is no.

21 Q. Of course you can answer for yourself, but can you guarantee that

22 the chief administrator of your hospital didn't hear that?

23 A. I cannot guarantee for the chief administrator of my hospital. I

24 never spoke of anything with him. Not even such a slight segment of such

25 an offer a transfer of patients across the river because such an offer was

Page 12991

1 on the table. I never heard any such thing from had him, anything in that

2 sense. We never discussed any such thing. We never discussed anything

3 like that.

4 Q. I can also conclude based on your answer that you didn't know that

5 the 4th Corps sent a request for some medicines. You have also told us

6 that the quantities of drugs that arrived, you were not aware of and that

7 they might have arrived from the western side of Mostar. Would you agree

8 with me that all that arrived from the -- that arrived in terms of medical

9 supplies and equipment arrived with the help of international

10 organisations? Would that be correct?

11 A. What we received by way of medical supplies, equipment, and

12 medicines for the most part came through various international medical

13 organisations, and it was either done on purpose or by accident. Like it

14 happened once that a lorry stopped in front of the building although

15 everything was intended for Jablanica. So one-third of the load was

16 unloaded for us, which was lucky for us. And the rest of the supplies

17 came from civilians, from the ruins. Everything that was of medical

18 nature ended up at the hospital. Where else would it have ended?

19 Q. It seems that we're working so well with these pauses that the

20 interpreters do not have a problem, and I don't know whether I'm going to

21 have a problem, whether I'm going to be able to finish what I plan to do.

22 Do you know why I asked you this? In one of these documents it

23 says, and a certain number of witnesses were heard before this Trial

24 Chamber, I would like to remind the Trial Chamber these were some of the

25 observers who were heard, say, (redacted)

Page 12992

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted), I'm going to talk about that, which did indeed come as aid.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

4 issue an order to erase line 7 on page 19 [as interpreted].

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to Your Honours. I

6 thought that this would in no way reveal the identity of these witnesses,

7 because I did not refer to any names.

8 Q. So do we have information that certain quantities of medical aid

9 were brought in, or blood as well in addition to medicaments? I'm trying

10 to say that you did not inevitably have to know that what an international

11 organisation was bringing in was coming from the western bank. Am I

12 right?

13 A. It is right that I cannot know from where something had left and

14 which way it went.

15 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at two other documents that speak

16 of that precisely? Again these are lists of medicaments. 2D 00325.

17 Tell me when you find it so we don't have to wait for e-court.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This is the 15th of May, 1993. The HVO war hospital in Mostar,

20 the central warehouse of medical equipment of the HZ HB, a shipment to the

21 BH army. I don't know whether there's anything special here. I'm just

22 going to ask you whether you remember whether there were shortages at the

23 time and whether you received any such medicine at the time from anyone.

24 Can you remember any such thing? One hundred pieces, I think you may

25 remember something like that.

Page 12993

1 A. Well, remember. If they're referring to what we will called

2 "brown nilej" [phoen], then it's nothing special. Were it some kind of a

3 device, then perhaps I could recognise it. Again, I have to tell you the

4 same thing. I'm sorry that I cannot be of assistance to you, but nothing

5 is that special for me to be able to say, Aha, that is what I saw.

6 Q. Thank you. You're not assisting me, you're assisting the

7 truth.

8 A. Yes, yes. All right.

9 Q. There are going to be witnesses who can confirm what you cannot

10 remember. I'm just asking about what you know.

11 Can we just have a look at 2D 00328.

12 Mr. Rajkov, you know, yesterday two Honourable Judges asked you

13 about whether there was this kind of cooperation or any kind of input from

14 the Croatian side at the time of the conflict, and since we have some

15 documentation we are trying to refresh your memory, if you can remember

16 any of this. I'm not bringing any pressure to bear on you, no. Have you

17 found the document?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As I mentioned a few moments ago how this went and what witnesses

20 confirmed this, well, you just tell me if you remember this. It's blood

21 after all. The 25th of September. See? It says here that it went

22 through the UNHCR. Do you remember that roughly?

23 A. I can tell you why I don't remember this. I do not remember this

24 because no matter how strange it may seem there was too much work for me

25 to be able to go upstairs that often where there was an alleged

Page 12994

1 transfusion service. I'm saying alleged because they would -- they were

2 just working on a give-and-take blood basis. I went there very rarely.

3 However, blood as therapy, if I can put it this way, in that hospital it

4 was only one doctor who was in charge of that. That was the only true

5 professional among us at the time, because the rest of us were GPs and

6 there was one dentist, and we would not have dared do it just like that.

7 So it's only one person who can know about that. That is the head of the

8 hospital at the time, who was my boss at the time, Dr. Miljevic, who was

9 the person in charge, and he's the only person who can remember that. I

10 don't know of any such thing. He was an anaesthesiologist.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yesterday I asked you this for

12 the precise reason. I am asking questions. I don't need any documents.

13 I know the problems with blood. And when I asked about the cooperation

14 you said that at your level you didn't know anything about cooperation. I

15 even asked you without knowing the documents, I don't need documents, as I

16 say, to ask my questions. I asked you about the transfusion of blood and

17 if you had any problems. You explained to us what you had done. I know

18 that when you carry out a surgical procedure you need blood.

19 Yesterday, we saw a document that pertains to the month of

20 September, and according to that document the UNHCR received blood, and it

21 seems that it was for your hospital, and you are saying that you don't

22 know anything that -- that it was the HVO or the UNHCR and my hospital

23 were involved in all that.

24 When you were in the OR, when you needed blood for the transfusion

25 for your patient, you didn't know where the blood came from, would that be

Page 12995

1 correct?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In actual fact I didn't know

3 where the blood was coming from. Primarily it was coming from our, again

4 I'm saying alleged transfusiology. It's a small room. Now, where the

5 blood came from, where it reached that room, that is beyond my knowledge.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has now shown us a

7 number of documents that establish apparently that the HVO did supply your

8 medical unit with blood material, masks, gloves, antibiotics, and so on

9 and so forth. The discovery that you can base on these documents, what

10 would be your conclusion? We are -- what would be your conclusion based

11 on the documents that have just been shown to you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking for a conclusion on

13 the basis of what was presented to me today and which I should take as the

14 truth that this happened in actual fact, that these were not only

15 attempts. This may be a paper showing intention, but, let's say, it

16 wasn't carried through, what I can say is well done, praiseworthy, but

17 these are five doses of blood, for instance, AB positive and B positive.

18 Five doses of blood perhaps for one moment, two patients. Was there more

19 of that and what the amount was? I don't know. I don't have the

20 documents in front of me.

21 As to what I saw beforehand, it is not that much. A hospital with

22 that much patients uses up a lot.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We discovered yesterday there

24 were international doctors, foreign doctors who helped you, people from

25 Spain and so on and so forth. As doctors of various specialties, they

Page 12996

1 could also have their own supplies. I suppose that Medecins sans

2 Frontieres who came to your hospital, if they had a problem they could

3 turn to their own supplies.

4 Did foreign medical teams have such resources and were they of any

5 value to you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they hear this I don't want them

7 to be offended. I'm just saying that there were two few of us. Then as

8 professionals in certain specialties that we were -- that we did not have

9 enough of, like anaesthesiology, then as far as medicaments were concerned

10 and material, as far as I managed to notice they could not bring in

11 quantities that would be sufficient, that would be satisfactory. I don't

12 know why. I had the impression that they were not allowed to bring in

13 more than they would carry in one bag. So they brought in some special

14 things, if I can put it that way. You'd hardly see a physician coming in

15 followed by a truck of material, no. But every one of them tried to bring

16 something in based on information he had received from his predecessor,

17 what was lacking and what would be lacking.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please carry on, Ms. Nozica.

19 Perhaps you can carry on to another subject. There may be other

20 interesting subjects.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Precisely that's what I've prepared for this very short time and in

23 relation to what the witness said. These are small quantities. With this

24 very short time with the witness, unfortunately we cannot go through all

25 the documentation we have but we are going to do it some other time.

Page 12997

1 Q. Now I'd just like to move on to a subject that you perhaps knew

2 nothing of, cooperation between the two. I keep that in mind all the

3 time. With some documents I'll try to jog your memory. Perhaps you will

4 remember at least something that constitutes cooperation. Can we have a

5 look at 2D 00319?

6 A. 329?

7 Q. 319. Have you found it?

8 A. It's ahead. I have to have a look.

9 Q. Yes. It's at the beginning.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Please, now you have it here. It's very short. You see it's the

12 6th of May; right? Quite an important date.

13 Did you have any contact with the war hospital in Jablanica?

14 A. I have to ask you what period you're asking me about.

15 Q. The time that this document refers to. That is the month of

16 May.

17 A. The 6th of May, 1993. Officially, no. We in the hygiene

18 institute, that we had contacts with the hospital in Jablanica? No. But

19 I personally know the doctors who were on duty in Jablanica at that time.

20 I know that they went there for a certain period of time and would rotate

21 in shifts. That's why I know that they were there.

22 Q. At that time again, do you know who Mr. Ivan Bagaric was?

23 A. No.

24 Q. He signed this document as assistant to head of defence department

25 sector for health care.

Page 12998

1 A. Yes, that's what's written here.

2 Q. I must say I'm surprised you haven't heard of him. This document

3 speaks of - could you have a look at the document - of appointing a

4 certain surgical team for work at the Jablanica wartime hospital. Four

5 names are mentioned, and it was said that the team would replace a

6 surgical team at the Jablanica wartime hospital who will return to Mostar,

7 to the Mostar regional wartime hospital, and that team consists of, and

8 then three names. Did you know these doctors? Did you know that this is

9 how these doctors went there, to work?

10 A. Yes, I knew about Jablanica. I already told you these teams went

11 there, three or four persons per shift. Dr. Hajdarevic, Dr. Saric were

12 there at that time in Jablanica. They stayed there during the war.

13 Q. Could we now look at 2D 00333.

14 A. 333. Green or blue?

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, with regard to the

16 document we've just talked about with the Jablanica team which is about to

17 be transferred to the Mostar regional wartime hospital, the Mostar

18 regional hospital, is that the HVO or the ABiH hospital?

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether the

20 interpretation I got is right, but it's the other way around. The wartime

21 hospital in Mostar. I thought it was obvious, because the letter is

22 signed by the assistant to head of defence department sector for health

23 care, Dr. Ivan Bagaric. So the team went from the wartime hospital to

24 Jablanica to replace doctors from the HVO hospital in Mostar yet again.

25 So all of these people are from the HVO wartime hospital in Mostar who are

Page 12999

1 taking turns in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina hospital.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why is this issue relevant to

3 the witness, because he's from the ABiH? If the document were to say that

4 these doctors are going to go to the ABiH wartime hospital, I would have

5 understood, but my feeling is these are doctors working only for the HVO.

6 So what's the relevance?

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] The problem is in the interpretation

8 that you're getting. Twice I've already said that the wartime hospital in

9 Jablanica is a hospital of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what I

10 asked the witness about, and that is what the witness confirmed.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I intervene? May I?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please, enlighten us.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the number? What was the

14 number of the document?

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

16 Q. 2D 00319.

17 A. At that time when Dr. Taslaman or Dr. Safet Omerovic were

18 appointed to be the replacement for the surgical team that was working at

19 that time in Jablanica, and that is Dr. Hajdarevic and Dr. Saric. Let me

20 say quite sincerely I don't know whether that town was in the state of

21 fighting between the two sides on that day earlier or later. I just know

22 that that was the regular shift of the staff that was employed in the HVO

23 hospital. These are regular employees with salaries, and that was the

24 usual circulation from earlier on. That had already been happening from

25 earlier on, and I know that this shift did not manage to come in due to

Page 13000

1 something. That is to say something happened during the conflict, so they

2 could not replace Dr. Hajdarevic and Dr. Saric. They stayed on throughout

3 that period one year in Jablanica even longer than that. Something

4 happened in Jablanica which prevented the replacement from being effected,

5 but both are employees of the HVO, and I don't know whether the Jablanica

6 hospital can be considered the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina hospital at the

7 time. Part of the HVO hospital is how I regarded it at that time.

8 Q. Sir, the 6th of May is the day when you remained on the eastern

9 side.

10 A. The 6th of May I was on duty, yes.

11 Q. The 9th of May is the day when you say that the attack started by

12 the HVO against the eastern side.

13 A. Yes, and I'm not the only one.

14 Q. I am now conducting this examination with you. This document is

15 dated the 6th of May. Can you agree and can you give the same kind of

16 answer that you gave to Mr. Karnavas that everything that looks like the

17 preparation of the eastern side for a future conflict was not felt at all

18 by the doctors and the medical staff? That's what you said; right? You

19 didn't know anything about that, and you believe that there was no

20 preparation for that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we conclude on the basis of this document that the wartime

23 hospital of the HVO Mostar did not know anything about the conflict to

24 come, because on the 6th of May they sent four doctors as a shift to work

25 in Jablanica, and they were replacing three, and they're all ethnic

Page 13001

1 Muslims. Unfortunately we have to speak in those terms.

2 A. Yes. Well, I didn't really pay attention to that.

3 Q. Except for Djuro Grumic he's a nurse. Can we conclude that your

4 colleagues on the western bank likewise did not know about this just like

5 you didn't? Just say yes or no and let's move on. I haven't got much

6 time, and I really would like to deal with --

7 A. My conclusion is that the situation was as usual from their point

8 of view since they were carrying out these regular replacements.

9 Q. Thank you. That's why I showed this document.

10 Now, for instance, you're going to look at two documents that

11 refer to cooperation. 2D 00333. 2D 00333.

12 A. I've found it.

13 Q. We thought that we have a technical problem, but we don't.

14 Could you please read this. To keep things as short of possible,

15 did you know Ms. Sally Becker?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, please put the question by

17 saying this document raises the issue of a document being sent at issue

18 and then put your question, because if you ask him to read the document,

19 you wait for him to read the document, and then you put the question.

20 That's a waste of time. He has read the document. He can see it. Go

21 ahead.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. That's

23 exactly what I did.

24 Q. Does the witness know Ms. Sally Becker at all and then perhaps he

25 could know something about that. Do you know this lady, and do you know

Page 13002

1 anything about this?

2 A. I know Ms. Sally Becker. I mean I knew her. I wonder if I could

3 recognise her now. I knew her for quit a while in terms of days, a

4 certain number of days. It seemed like a very long time to me. She was

5 in the hygiene institute. She would usually sleep on the bed next to

6 mine. I remember her.

7 Q. Do you know anything about this?

8 A. I don't know anything about this.

9 Q. Do you know anything about the document, about cars?

10 A. No, I don't know that she managed to take out any medical things.

11 Q. You don't seem to have a very good experience or good opinion of

12 her help.

13 A. Not of her medical help.

14 Q. Can we now look at another document, 2D 00327, another document

15 about medical cooperation. Did you find it?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. This is a very important document. This is another request sent

18 by the Defence department on the 16th of September. As the Presiding

19 Judge said, the 16th of September is a very important date and this was

20 September to the UNPROFOR to the Spanish Battalion. It was sent by deputy

21 head of the medical didn't, Mr. Ivan Bagaric. Somebody the signed the

22 letter on his behalf.

23 Again in this request -- you're reading it. Please take some time

24 to read the document.

25 A. Do you want me to read it out loud?

Page 13003

1 Q. No. Read it to yourself.

2 A. I've read it; I'm a fast reader.

3 Q. Again at this request, it is requested from the Spanish Battalion

4 to mediate in the offer to the Muslim side for the accommodation and

5 treatment, and I quote that, "especially women and children in that

6 hospital in Mostar."

7 Again, they're going getting the same equal treatment, and I

8 remind you this was said in the previous document 2D 00323 dated 11 June

9 1993. And another interesting thing is the following sentence, the last

10 sentence actually?

11 A. Yes, I can see it.

12 Q. "We do this for one single reason which is a humanitarian reason

13 and we are kindly asking you not to give any political connotation to this

14 request."

15 First of all, did you know anything about this? And the last

16 sentence in this document, does it show the humanitarian nature that your

17 colleagues on the western side obviously had and displayed when it came to

18 the treatment of all people regardless of their ethnic background?

19 A. The document itself and its contents or that something was

20 implemented based on those document I don't know. The last sentence

21 sounds really nice and it has been worded really very well. Chapeau.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Praljak

23 still have to put their questions. We have another 45 minutes to go.

24 So did you agree as to the questions and as to the time? Because you've

25 used already over 40 minutes. Don't forget you've got your colleagues as

Page 13004

1 well.

2 Ms. Alaburic, how many minutes do you need?

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mrs. Nozica has

4 consulted us, and we believe that documents that she's trying to have

5 admitted are very important and that's why General Petkovic's Defence has

6 given part of its time to our colleague Nozica, so you needn't worry. We

7 have redistributed the time.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you said you have given

9 ought your time or not? Ms. Alaburic, do you need a few minutes

10 thereafter.

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] We have given part of the time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Precisely how many minutes do

13 you need.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Ten minutes at the end.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So ten minutes to you.

16 Mr. Kovacic on behalf of Mr. Praljak, how much time do you need?

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it would be ideal that

18 we have up to 15 minutes for Mr. Praljak and Ms. Pinter will need two or

19 three minutes for the documents.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, so if I added all up

21 Ms. Alaburic and Mr. Kovacic that's about 30 minutes. So Ms. Nozica, you

22 have another 15 minutes.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try and

24 accomplish everything within that time or at least the most important part

25 of it.

Page 13005

1 Q. We've heard your answer. We can move on to the next topic.

2 Unfortunately, when it comes to what the Judges asked you, that is the

3 evacuation of the ill, the wounded, even the soldiers of the BH army, I

4 have prepared a few documents but unfortunately I'll be able to show you

5 just one much them because unfortunately we don't have enough time. The

6 document is 2D 00326. Can you please look at that document.

7 Did you find it?

8 A. 326?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes. It has two pages.

11 Q. The date is 10 September 1993, and yes, it does have two pages.

12 And this is a list of wounded members of the BiH army, which was -- which

13 were sent from the war hospital of the HVO Mostar to the hospital in

14 Split.

15 Did you know anything about this? Does any name ring a bell?

16 Does any name remind you of somebody, kind of jog your memory? From

17 Mostar people were transferred to Split because Split could probably could

18 have provided them with better treatment than the HVO hospital in Mostar.

19 Do you know anything about this?

20 A. No. I don't know, but I'm trying to find a familiar name among

21 the many names.

22 Q. Thank you very much, sir. You don't know. We can move on. Let's

23 not dwell upon this. I'm going to find witnesses who will be able to

24 confirm this document for us.

25 Do you know anything about the number of people who died in the

Page 13006

1 month of May and were members of the HVO? In the month of May 1993, how

2 many were killed on the western bank? How many were wounded, how many

3 were killed on the western bank? Do you have any perception of those

4 numbers?

5 A. I don't know. I don't even know how many were killed on my side.

6 I know the number of wounded, but I don't know the number of those who

7 died, who were killed.

8 Q. Can we look at the document P 02445. This is a Prosecutor's

9 document. You must have it in your binder, sir, here.

10 A. Can you read number again?

11 Q. P 02445. It's at the very beginning amongst the documents in the

12 binder.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you find it? We can look at it together just briefly. The

15 date is 18 May. It's another list of dead and wounded. And can we move

16 on to the last page of this document, of its B/C/S version, the last page

17 of the document. Also the last page in the English. You can look at it

18 on the screen.

19 On that date, the 18th of May, there were 245 wounded by then, and

20 there is the breakdown by ethnic background. Fifty-five wounded

21 civilians, 35 dead soldiers, Croats, and 2 Muslims, and out of 15 dead

22 civilians there were 13 Muslims, and in the morgue there were 8

23 unidentified persons. Do you have any doubt -- do you have any reason to

24 doubt these numbers? Are these numbers correct, according to you?

25 A. Why would I doubt about the accuracy of an official document?

Page 13007

1 This is an official document. There's no stamp or any such thing, but --

2 Q. This is an official document.

3 A. If it's an official document, then it should abide by certain

4 rules. I don't know whether the stamp on the document is the Tribunal's

5 stamp.

6 Q. The document contains all the names, and it is a document which is

7 a Prosecution exhibit.

8 Did you know that there were exchanges of prisoners, members of

9 the BiH army and the HVO during the time when you worked at the hospital?

10 Did you ever hear of anybody having been exchanged, of any exchanges that

11 were taking place? During the period of time that you were practising in

12 the hospital in September, did you ever receive any exchanged members of

13 the BiH army who had need for medical assistance?

14 A. There were patients who were discharged from my hospital and went

15 to the other side. They were mostly HVO prisoners who were wounded, who

16 were surgically treated at our hospital and then were transported to the

17 other side. Whether they were exchanged or were just transported or were

18 they exchanged for another group of people at the same moment, I wouldn't

19 be sure and I can't tell you that they were exchanged. Whether there were

20 any patients wounded and if this is the segment you're asking me about

21 from the other side, I don't remember them coming as a group. I know that

22 people did come from the other side, especially ones that were released

23 from various camps.

24 Q. From various camps on both sides?

25 A. From the camps on the western side.

Page 13008

1 Q. And what was the name of that on the eastern side? Where were the

2 Croatian prisoners kept on the eastern side?

3 A. What the name was?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. You're asking me about the name of the prison? It was a prison.

6 Q. Can we look at 2D 00315?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. I need a

8 few moments. Please registrar, can we move to private session just for a

9 few seconds.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Just for the record --

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: While we are talking about this document, could

22 you inform the Chamber, Ms. Nozica, on how this was compiled? What is the

23 basis for this list? Is it a list which covers corpses found on both

24 sides of the Neretva, or is it limited to casualties in the area

25 controlled by HVO?

Page 13009

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the list was put

2 together on the 18th of May, 1993, it would be logical that at the time it

3 could have only comprised those persons that were killed or wounded on the

4 side that was under the control of the HVO. That would be logical.

5 We are still waiting for 2D 00315.

6 Q. But you have got it, and the subject of this document is an

7 evacuation. You had the time to look at it. The transport was done

8 through the Spanish Battalion, and it says: "With the help of the APCs of

9 the Spanish Battalion, the wounded were transferred to our hospital. In

10 turn, the HVO has given to the Muslim side five wounded members of the MOS

11 who had been treated at the war hospital in Mostar. The wounded members

12 of the HVO, I took over on the left side directly from the prison."

13 Further on what is described is the condition of the people and

14 everything that accompanied the evacuation. And finally it is said that

15 future evacuations are to be expected and also that UNPROFOR is expected

16 to help further evacuations.

17 Would you agree with me that the evacuations were impossible at

18 the time without the help of UNPROFOR and other international

19 organisations?

20 A. I wouldn't say that they were almost impossible. They were

21 absolutely impossible.

22 Q. I don't have much more time, and I have a very important thing. I

23 have a document that was signed by you personally. It -- do you know that

24 a trial is ongoing in Mostar against some members of the BH army for war

25 crimes committed in the prisons where Croats were kept during the war?

Page 13010

1 A. I know that there was a trial. I don't know whether there is a

2 new one or whether that trial still continues.

3 Q. The person -- the accused is Mr. Cupina who is the first accused

4 in that trial. Do you know anything about that?

5 A. I know about that. This is the trial that I had in mind, and I

6 thought that it was finished.

7 Q. Yes, it was finished. Do you know how it ended and when it

8 ended?

9 A. I don't know. It must have been a year.

10 Q. Just for the record, it ended yesterday with the first instance

11 decision by which eight accused have been sentenced a to total of 18 years

12 in prison, and they were all members of the BiH army who were either

13 wardens or were in anyway involved with the prisons where members of the

14 HVO were kept.

15 I'm now going to ask you something, and at the beginning I would

16 like to say this to avoid any misunderstandings, in this case I don't have

17 the time to show you all the documents, did you know anything, and I'm not

18 pointing my finger at you in any way, Mr. Rajkov because the documents are

19 not pointing at you, but I'm asking you, did you know that the members of

20 the HVO who were incarcerated on the 30th June 1993 and remained in prison

21 until the month of March in 1994 were forced to give blood without their

22 consent?

23 A. I know that prisoners or detainees, the HVO detainees as they were

24 defined in the protocol, did arrive at the hospital to give blood amongst

25 other things. As a matter of principle, I would like to say that they

Page 13011

1 would normally give blood to their own colleagues because they were all

2 brought to our hospital and were treated by us.

3 As for them being forced to give blood against their own will, I

4 must say that transfusion was on the upper floor and it may seem strange

5 to you in -- in peacetimes it may be possible to know what's going on, but

6 in wartimes, and I was working for 20 hours, I didn't know.

7 Q. You didn't know anything about that?

8 A. I didn't know anything about people giving blood by force. I know

9 that they did come, that they did give blood mostly to their colleagues.

10 Q. Why to their colleagues? What was the situation of their

11 colleagues? Why did they need blood? Were they wounded? Were they

12 wounded as a labour force on the first lines? Were they ill-treated in

13 prisons? Why did they need blood? Why did they need transfusions?

14 A. There were some serious wounds. I remember a few patients. I

15 operated on some of them together with my colleagues. They sustained

16 explosive wounds, shell wounds. I remember a patient Josip Kordic, Jakov

17 Raspudic, and some others who had been hit by shells, or stepped on a mine

18 in front of the SDK building in the main street, on Titova Street. There

19 were a lot of wounded people on that day. I don't know what day it was

20 but I still remember the event, the incident.

21 Q. What did HVO prisoners do on the street on that day? Did you know

22 that they were being taken to work on the front line, that they were being

23 taken to do some engineering works on the front line or on the separation

24 line between the HVO and the BiH army?

25 A. As far as I know from some conversations when I asked how many --

Page 13012

1 how some that there were so many of them there, there were a lot of them

2 in that group of wounded, wounded prisoners. As far as I can remember

3 know it arose that at that time they were helping with the loading or

4 unloading of something, some lorries carrying humanitarian aid, flour, or

5 what, and they were transporting that to some depots.

6 Q. Did you ever hear that some of the prisoners -- I know that my

7 time is almost up, I'm going to have just a couple of questions about two

8 important documents. Did you ever hear that one of the prisoners or some

9 of the Croatian prisoners were so badly beaten that they succumbed to

10 their wounds as a result of the beating? Did you ever come into contact

11 with any such patients as a doctor?

12 A. No, never came in contact with that type of wounds or injuries.

13 Q. And now just one more question. We'll go back to a document, and

14 let me ask you this --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please conclude. Please

16 conclude.

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...

18 drawing my examination to an end.

19 Q. In a protocol if you had a column and I'm referring you to Exhibit

20 9672 under which you recorded the place of death or wounding, and you put

21 Santiceva. What did that mean what did Santiceva mean for you? Was that

22 the front line?

23 A. If you have Santiceva in the protocol, this is probably -- I

24 apologise, not probably I apologise this was the area along the Santiceva

25 street --

Page 13013

1 Q. Sir --

2 A. -- along its entirely length but not along the front line. Its

3 entirety length some 200 or 300 metres behind Santiceva in the direction

4 of the Neretva River and this is for the sake of the protocol.

5 Q. Just for the sake of the protocol?

6 A. Yes, for the sake of the protocol from Santiceva to the Neretva.

7 Q. And now the last document 2D 00335.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down for the

9 interpreters and the record.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

11 Q. This is a death certificate that you signed yourself 2D 00 --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, my colleagues are telling

13 me that you have used all the time you had at your disposal.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know that, but I can

15 ask questions because the time was given to me by my colleague sitting

16 behind me and only about this document.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're taking her time.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I believe that this document is very

19 relevant and this is a document that was signed by the witness. I believe

20 that the question will also be relevant.

21 Q. Did you find the document?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Is this your signature?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can we look at the document together? Mario Vasic [as

Page 13014

1 interpreted], is that the name?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Another name, the time of death is 22nd September 1993, isn't

4 it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does it say SDK here as the place of death?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please tell me, what does it mean, SDK, when it says the

9 cause of death in Bosnian. It hasn't been translated. I was not sure

10 this is your translation. Does it mean contusion, head contusion?

11 A. Yes this is a translation of a forensic medical term.

12 Q. This is what you recorded?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In view of the wound, what did he die of on the 22nd of September,

15 1993? What did the patient die of? Where did he die? And as the result

16 of what?

17 A. Such a diagnosis --

18 Q. Doesn't this diagnosis mean that he was hit by something?

19 A. This means that the wound was a result of a hit with a blunt

20 thing. It could have been a stone falling from a building or the axe.

21 Q. I have no further questions, sir. We'll elaborated that --

22 elaborate this in writing. We will establish that the patient had been

23 beaten and that he was brought to you dead for the purpose of you issuing

24 a certificate of his death.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just 15 seconds more doctor. We

Page 13015

1 have just seen a document in which you stated in Latin contusio capitis,

2 and you said that his head had been smashed. You did not attempt to find

3 out how a soldier because apparently he was an HVO soldier, how his head

4 was hit or smashed in the ABiH sector?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally never inquired about

6 circumstances involved when cause of death is concerned. They used me for

7 cause of death and signing death certificates for a very simple reason. I

8 am the only one in the hospital who had that kind of stamp, that kind of

9 seal, so I was the own one who could verify it with a seal. So if I'm not

10 to say all but practically all death certificates issued in the hospital,

11 especially such for HVO prisoners that went elsewhere were signed by me.

12 I knew that some day somebody would ask me something about that.

13 As for the circumstances involved, I did not go into that. It was

14 for me to establish what the main wound was and what was the cause of

15 death and to confirm that the said person was dead.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next counsel.

17 Cross-examination by Ms. Pinter:

18 Q. Beginning Your Honours. Good evening Dr. Rajkov. On behalf of

19 the Defence of General Praljak, I would like to put a question to you with

20 regard to a document, 3D 00378. Today in response -- you'll get it you'll

21 get the document. Today in response to a friend [as interpreted] put by

22 my colleagues from the Prosecution, line 24, page 3, you mentioned your

23 colleague Dr. Mira Candzic.

24 A. Candzic.

25 Q. Could you just give us her name, Candzic?

Page 13016

1 A. Camdzic, Almira Camdzic with an M not an N.

2 Q. The doctor was wounded?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Her right leg was amputated and she had wounds in the abdomen; is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Now I would like to ask you to have a look at this document that's

8 in front of you.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And tell us whether this is precisely Dr. Camdzic.

11 A. It's not very legible.

12 Q. I agree.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yes. In your statement you also know that she had been

15 evacuated.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you would agree with me that this document shows that General

18 Praljak ensured a helicopter for Dr. Camdzic to be taken to Split?

19 A. Yes, that's what's written here.

20 Q. The last question on my part: Dr. Camdzic was a Bosniak, a

21 Muslim; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Now General Praljak, with the leave of the Court, is

24 going to take over.

25 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

Page 13017

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

2 Dr. Rajkov.

3 A. Good evening.

4 Q. We have very little time so please answer me as briefly as

5 possible.

6 The military hospital on the fence, where could it be seen from if

7 you're outside, if you're out of that street, say, on the right-hand side?

8 Could it be seen anywhere except 5 -- 50 metres left or right? Just say

9 yes or no.

10 A. If you get out of the street, no.

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now let us go back to the generator.

12 The generators were used -- well, you tell me if you don't agree

13 with me.

14 A. All right.

15 Q. Water is obtained through pumps when there is electricity. When

16 there is a power cut, the generator is automatically switched on like in

17 the hospital so there would be water even when there is no electricity.

18 Am I right?

19 A. Yes, it's logical.

20 Q. When the generator was taken from the pump and when there was no

21 electricity, then there could no longer be any water in the area that was

22 serviced by that pump station. Is that logical?

23 A. It's logical if that was its purpose.

24 Q. Thank you. Please, on page -- or, rather, do you know that near

25 your hospital, behind your hospital there was a mortar position of the

Page 13018

1 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Do you know that? Yes or no?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you. Now I would like --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute, because this is a

5 relevant question which is raised by General Praljak.

6 You said you didn't know. You didn't know because you didn't get

7 out or didn't know what happened? When you were going around in the

8 surroundings you never happened to see any mortar position. Can you catch

9 the difference? What can you say, to be more clear?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw anything that would look

11 like that kind of a war position, a mortar position or a machine-gun nest

12 or anything like that near the building. Behind the building is a little

13 hill and some small family homes. I didn't go into the houses and the

14 yards, but behind the institute itself I would have seen that.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And you don't know about the little hill?

17 A. What happened among the houses and the hills I cannot guarantee.

18 Q. Nika, could you please put that map down? Oh. Would you please

19 take care of that map?

20 Now I'm going to ask you the following: In your statement, on

21 page 6 you say for that day, the 9th, "in view of the fact that the HVO

22 was in northern camp, which was near us, I was afraid that the HVO would

23 knock at our door any moment."

24 This is a very accurate map of Mostar. Please mark the building

25 of your hospital and of the northern camp.

Page 13019

1 A. On this? It's like a satellite image or something.

2 Q. Exactly. You can see where your hospital is and you can see where

3 the northern camp is.

4 A. Just a moment. I have never really seen any such thing from the

5 air.

6 Q. All right. While you're orienting yourself --

7 A. Please go ahead.

8 Q. You say the northern camp was near our hospital; is that right?

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You were afraid that the HVO would knock at your door.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can still not hear the witness.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes. We have "yes" registered as your answer in terms of the

15 first question. You were afraid that the HVO would knock at your door.

16 The answer was yes.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, what we all know, logic, logic, minimal logic. In war and

19 peace, it's always the same.

20 If anyone from the HVO was planning that action of attacking

21 Mostar, if anyone did that, I don't know, wouldn't it have been logical to

22 attack from the northern camp and to cut off at least that part of Mostar

23 where you were, where the railway station was, and so on? In your view,

24 would that not have been logical?

25 A. All right. Viewed from the point of view of war, it would be

Page 13020

1 good.

2 Q. All right. The left side and the right side --

3 A. Well, that's what it looks like to me.

4 Q. As you know or, rather, do you know that anyone from the northern

5 camp attacked anyone over there? Do you know on that day, the 9th of May?

6 Did they move towards you? Did they shoot at you?

7 A. They did shoot, but that they launched an attack, no.

8 Q. Thank you. Now please mark where your hospital was. Mark the

9 northern camp.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You want me to put a circle round

12 it?

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes, yes. And please mark your hospital as number 1, northern

15 camp number 2.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is inaudible to the interpreters.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Please put a circle around it.

19 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness again.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Please, just put an arrow and write N, north, and mark the east

22 with E.

23 A. North should be here, so this should be roughly in this

24 direction.

25 Q. Well, you know where north is so just do it right.

Page 13021

1 A. North and east. This is it.

2 Q. Please take -- mark Musala number 3. You know what Musala is?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Number 3. I just have two more things.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is Musala, Mr. Praljak?

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] That is the central part of

7 Mostar. When you go through Tito's bridge to the east side there is a

8 relatively big square, as far as Mostar is concerned. So the central part

9 of Mostar is called Musala. And then this Musala has access to where the

10 fire brigade building was and the Razvitak building, and the street of

11 Marsal Tito.

12 Q. Mr. Rajkov is what I said right?

13 A. Yes it is attached to the street of Marsal Tito.

14 Q. You have marked that with number 3?

15 A. Yes, the figure is this figure.

16 Q. Please, you said two big hits at the hospital. One came from the

17 front side, but one came from the north-east, and -- now, this is my

18 question: When you stood at where that hit was and when you looked at the

19 direction in which it had come from, in that direction were -- is that

20 where the HVO artillery positions were? To the best of your knowledge,

21 could that have come from the positions held by HVO artillery, this one

22 hit here that you were talking about?

23 A. You're talking about the north?

24 Q. You said north-east.

25 A. All right. I said north-east because the building has an entire

Page 13022

1 side. It's not just one point. So north-east would not be in the middle.

2 It would be sort of east. So that's why I said north-east.

3 Now, as I was looking through this hole, I know I see the railway

4 station and in that direction the northern came many and further on the

5 hills that are on the right bank of the Neretva. As for where the

6 artillery of the HVO is or the Croatian artillery, I was not crazy enough

7 to look in that direction where the shelling was coming from.

8 Q. Thank you. So -- thank you for this information, what it was you

9 saw on the other bank of the Neretva River.

10 On page 11 of your statement you said in the second paragraph,

11 second paragraph, that in the diagnosis it said that they were wounded by

12 sniper shooting.

13 How can a doctor make a distinction between a bullet from a sniper

14 rifle and a bullet fired from a rifle that does not have that kind of

15 sight? Can you make a distinction?

16 A. Not by the wound.

17 Q. Thank you. One more thing now. Could you please put this on the

18 ELMO, sir, for the gentleman?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like to have a number

20 for that map, Mr. Praljak?

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, at the end. At

22 the end, Your Honour. At the end.

23 Q. Please, on page 5 of your statement, that's the last thing I have

24 to say, you say another case was of when Vedran Dejanic was crossing from

25 the western to the eastern side via Tito's bridge. The sentence is: "He

Page 13023

1 was hit in the head from a sniper near the Neretva River near the

2 Supermarket."

3 Please look at what I drew, this little piece of paper. Please

4 take a look at that.

5 A. Just a moment, please. I can find my way. I know what it was you

6 were trying to draw.

7 Q. Can you please mark on this little piece of paper next to the

8 supermarket roughly the place where you claim that this gentleman was

9 killed, Mr. Vedran Dejanic, killed by a sniper shot.

10 A. I can mark the place exactly. And if this were an enlarged aerial

11 image it would have an accurate picture. But yours, that is an

12 approximation, and I will try to be accurate. It is this right here right

13 here. Now why am I saying that? Because he was lying underneath a lamp,

14 a street lamp that was on a wire on the street in the very middle.

15 Q. Put a number 1 on there.

16 A. 1.

17 Q. Please sign that for me and put the date on both documents, and

18 that is all that I ask you to do. This is practice of this court.

19 A. Oh, is it? Well, if it is, then what should I use to do it?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 25th of January, 2007, and

21 sign, please.

22 First a number for this document.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And the big map, please.

24 Could that be signed too?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's start with this

Page 13024

1 document.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somebody should write this out very

3 specifically: Sketch drawn by Mr. Praljak; number 1 put by Dr. Rajkov.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please just put the signature

5 there for me. Don't be afraid, Doctor.

6 THE REGISTRAR: The drawing prepared by General Praljak and marked

7 in court by the witness shall be given IC 253, Your Honours.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] An IC number for the map

9 too, please.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the map please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: And the map also marked by the witness in court

12 shall be given Exhibit Number IC 254.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Dr.

14 Rajkov. Thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

17 Q. Dr. Rajkov, I don't know whether I should start at all or not.

18 We've got five minutes, but perhaps let us clarify some details.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can not hear the witness.

20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could you please briefly clarify

21 part of your statement in writing that pertains to the conflict a few days

22 before the 9th of May, 1993, and what you say about your hospital too, if

23 I may jog your memory.

24 A. Tell me what you are referring to.

25 Q. In your statement, you say that the war hospital was starting to

Page 13025

1 work properly about a month before the conflict. "We were getting more

2 and more material. The material was coming in from different sides. For

3 the most part we got medical equipment from the former East German army."

4 And then you say further on page 4 of the B/C/S text or, rather, page 3 of

5 the English text: "Before the actual conflict we had a so-called test

6 conflict period, the one I referred to a few -- a while ago."

7 Tell us, what was this test conflict?

8 A. That's the period that people around me called test shooting, the

9 test period, and later on that's what it was called. That's the way

10 because "probna marisana" was the word used there. Later on it was called

11 "marisana" in the jargon.

12 Q. Can we conclude that this test conflict was actually practice for

13 a possible more extensive conflict where many more casualties can be

14 expected?

15 A. No, that has nothing to do with my work and my hospital. I'm

16 referring to the shooting during the night. During the day a member of

17 the army and a member of the HVO would be sitting together and drinking

18 Coca-Cola together, and at night they would shoot at each other.

19 Q. This pertains to the days before the 9th?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Your next sentence is: "During that time we were hosting Muslim

22 doctors and nurses from the surgery didn't of the regional medical centre

23 (HVO war hospital)."

24 Tell us, please, in that period, was it noted that your colleagues

25 of Muslim ethnicity from the war hospital of the HVO came to work in your

Page 13026

1 hospital on the east bank?

2 A. For a while before the 9th of May, if I can put it that way, that

3 is what would correspond to the actual state of affairs. Sporadically,

4 colleagues I knew from earlier on, surgeons, would come in to sort of be

5 there to see what it looked like, because we had something there but it

6 was not really our line of work, and they sort of told us what could be

7 done. And there were a few surgical interventions that were carried out.

8 I know that we operated on a soldier who was wounded a few days before the

9 9th of May. From my current point of view it was no major surgery but

10 then it was pretty big and it couldn't have been done before that.

11 Q. Did any of them bring any medical equipment or medicaments or

12 anything else that would have been of assistance to you on the east

13 bank?

14 A. Yes. Well, it's not that everyone brought something every time,

15 but, yes, they did bring something. Sometimes some important thing would

16 be lacking like, say, out of a set of instruments. If you look at it as a

17 GP, you sort of thing oh, wonder of wonders, and then all of a sudden you

18 see something is missing.

19 Q. Thank you. Could we just clarify a small inconsistency in what

20 you were saying about your conversation to your commander on the 7th of

21 May? Today Mr. Karnavas asked you where your commander was, and you said

22 that you did not know roughly and that he phoned you and you didn't know

23 where he was phoning you from. Yesterday, however, you said to us, and

24 that was recorded in the transcript, that you called him only the 7th in

25 the morning in order to report to him about what happened during your

Page 13027

1 shift, and that is what you did customarily.

2 Can you tell us now what this was all about?

3 A. Let's not waste energy on things that are not that important.

4 This is what it was: With induction telephones you go to the signalman.

5 You say call such-and-such a person. He says, "Wait, I need some time."

6 And then they do this and that. I'm not very knowledgeable about these

7 things it looks very primitive but it does require a certain procedure.

8 So a sort of, you call and then he calls you. So I actually told the

9 signalsman that he should call this number, a certain person, and that

10 this person call me back as far as I know. I called and then I was

11 called. I mean, both is correct. Of course it seems crazy now from the

12 point of view of, say, cell phones.

13 Q. But it does know that you knew what number you were calling and

14 you knew where the number was located and what building.

15 A. No, there was no number. I would just say to the signalsman,

16 "Call Ahmo." It's a small town. We all know each other. And he would

17 call and then the other one would call me back..

18 Q. Tell me, Dr. Rajkov, among your colleagues were there some that

19 lived on the east bank, in view of the fact that you lived on the west

20 bank? That's why I'm asking.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me, was the recommendation of your commander or your boss to

23 remain on the east bank and to be in the hospital by way of a reserve?

24 Did that pertain to your colleagues who lived on the east bank as well?

25 Did they, just like you, stay on in the hospital during those days as a

Page 13028

1 kind of reserve?

2 A. It so happened, and that is how this was carried through, this

3 advice, this recommendation of Dr. Ahmo. The next lady doctor who came

4 stayed on. She lives on the east bank. The next doctor, I have to admit,

5 did not follow the recommendation. He went home. He does live on the

6 east bank but very far away, down south. He needed several days later on

7 to get to the hospital and then the fourth one the next one was there.

8 Yes, yes. Only the four of us. All of them live on the east bank.

9 Q. Let me just conclude. The recommendation pertained to those on

10 the east bank as well; right?

11 A. Not the other doctors that I mentioned in -- they did not exist

12 for us at the time.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers not speak at the same time,

14 interpreters note.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's beyond 7.00. I

16 assume that we have to adjourn. I would have more questions of this

17 witness, and I'm truly very sorry that we haven't got more time. If you

18 allow me a few more minutes, some very brief clarifications --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you have five minutes for

20 your clarifications.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] All right.

22 Q. Now I'll be very brief I'm not going to go into any complex topics

23 Dr. Rajkov you said to us today you heard the radio on the 9th of May

24 calling upon members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to surrender and to

25 hang out white flags. Did I understand you correctly?

Page 13029

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I want to clarify this. It pertained to members of the army of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

4 A. There wasn't any third party there.

5 Q. I see that you're surprised, but I am saying that you're the first

6 witness who spoke of it in such terms because witnesses until now were

7 telling us that this was directed at the Muslims to surrender. That's why

8 I'm asking you.

9 A. All right.

10 Q. Can we also discuss the question of the ID that you had as far as

11 back as 1992, because you lived on the west bank and there you needed an

12 ID so that you could cross to the east bank at all. Tell us, if I

13 remember what you said correctly, free passage to the east bank was

14 allowed only to persons who lived there; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us who it was that issued such IDs to citizens in

17 order to be able to cross over to the east bank?

18 A. I don't know who issued these documents to citizens so that they

19 could cross over to the east bank so there would be proof that they really

20 live on the east bank. I don't know because I lived on the west bank, so

21 I wasn't really interested in that bit. Not to say how surprised I was

22 when I was told that you -- you cannot go to the other side if you don't

23 have an invitation or approval or whatever. And that's the way it was. A

24 person I knew, an old person from Mostar, a disabled person, I got a

25 document from him, a document making it possible for me to get there. It

Page 13030

1 wasn't possible in any other way.

2 Q. Dr. Rajkov, would it be right to conclude, then, that a Croat who

3 lived on the west bank and who worked on the west bank could not get such

4 an ID in order to cross to the other side because -- if there was no

5 justification for crossing to the other side?

6 A. That is quite possible, although I have the impression that there

7 were yet other IDs that gave one the right to cross over, because a

8 soldier could cross over.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Doctor, we need a clarification

10 at this point. We know that you were on the BiH side. We know that there

11 was a front line. We know that you resided in West Mostar. When you went

12 back home did you have to cross the front line and did you have to pass

13 through check-points of the HVO and did you use your BiH ID?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because the check-point existed

15 at the old bridge and at the old bridge there were soldiers or policemen

16 standing there, whatever they were, and to me they looked like soldiers of

17 the BH army, although it seems to me that in a certain period of time the

18 check-point was of mixed composition. There were HVO soldiers or

19 policemen there. It varied. Sometimes both were there, yes. But as for

20 another check-point, a purely HVO check-point, no. No, there wasn't one

21 on the road from the old bridge to Dum where I lived, no.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we can conclude, then, that

23 when you worked in the east part of Mostar you could move to go back home

24 to the western part of Mostar, and you could again go back to work in the

25 eastern part of Mostar.

Page 13031

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I could go and come back, up

2 until the day of the conflict. That is to say, up until the date of the

3 6th I don't know after that up until then I could cross over, of course,

4 with my ID.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Doctor, my colleagues are telling me that your answer to my

7 question as to who issued IDs is not recorded in the transcript so could

8 you please repeat your answer.

9 A. You asked who issued IDs to cross over to the left bank or across

10 the old bridge as we called it. I don't know who it was that issued the

11 IDs because I didn't need to know anything about it because at the time I

12 lived and worked on the west bank.

13 Q. This was an ID that said the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes, in my case. The paper I got as a basis in order to go there

15 at all in terms of my activation as a physician in the BH army did have a

16 letterhead stating the BH army and was signed by the commander of the 3rd

17 Battalion.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I really think that this is very

19 important and when Judge Antonetti put the question, that is the line

20 17 -- sorry, 17, 5, said you got an ID from the BH had. As far as I heard

21 Judge Antonetti, he said the army of the BH, not only of the BH.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Doctor, unfortunately I only have one more question and it has to

24 do with the conflict itself on the 9th of May. Can you tell us whether

25 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from its positions in the east part of

Page 13032

1 Mostar shot at the west part of Mostar on that 9th of May, if you know

2 about that?

3 A. On the basis -- well, I only know on the basis of what I was told

4 by the fighters who were from that area of the future separation line,

5 those who would come to the institute as they were accompanying patients.

6 Things were moving back and forth. Later they responded in fire as much

7 as they could with what they had, and in terms of how many they were

8 there.

9 Q. Doctor, do you know that already on the next day, the 10th of May,

10 Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban agreed on a cease-fire and a truce? That

11 two days later the commanders of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

12 HVO respectively agreed on a cessation of hostilities and a cease-fire?

13 A. No, I don't know about that. I was never involved in higher

14 levels then or now.

15 Q. Can you tell us about the 11th of May onwards up until mid-May or

16 the end of May the conflicts were much -- of much, much lower intensity,

17 and that they could not be compared to the intensity of the 9th and 10th

18 of May?

19 A. Well, how should I put this? It was irregular. There was a curve

20 and it went up and down. Sometimes more --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not speak at the same

22 time, interpreters note.

23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I'm interested in the first amplitude after the 10th of May?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you have to

Page 13033

1 finish.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I answer?

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you can answer very quickly.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will. After the first crescendo I

5 would have to say that it would own be logical to have a lull, lower

6 intensity of gunfire. It seemed to me as an attempt to get something

7 done. It didn't work, and now we're going to shoot at each other a bit.

8 And then again every now and then, yes, well, the intensity went down

9 after the original peak. As for the reason, I don't know.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Doctor. On behalf of

11 my colleagues I would like to thank you for coming to The Hague and having

12 testified here. We have gone longer by 15 minutes, but it was very

13 important to finish your testimony because of your profession, and for

14 that reason we prolonged our session by 15 minutes, and the registrar will

15 pardon me.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And for next week we have nine

18 witnesses. I hope we will arrive at hearing all of those nine witnesses,

19 Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: We've plotted a course, Your Honours, and we'll do

21 everything we can to get from A to B as quickly as possible. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have confidence in you. I

23 would like to thank everybody, and I invite you all to come back on Monday

24 at quarter past 2.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.15 p.m.,

Page 13034

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day

2 of January, 2007, at 2007