Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13445

1 Monday, 5 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. On this Monday, the

10 5th of February, I'd like to say good afternoon to everybody in the

11 courtroom, to the Prosecution, the Defence counsel, the accused, and

12 everybody else.

13 I'm going to give the floor to Madam Registrar straight away for

14 some IC numbers to start off with.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, Prosecution

16 has submitted four lists of documents. The first list to be tendered

17 through Witness Omer Dilberovic will be given number IC 323. The second

18 list to be tendered through Witness DB will be given number IC 324 under

19 seal. The third list to be tendered through Witness Dzevad Hadzizukic

20 already given IC 325. The fourth list to be tendered through Witness

21 Heljic will be given number IC 326. Defence 3 has also submitted four

22 lists of documents. The first to be tendered through Witness DB. That

23 will be given IC 327. The list tendered through Witness Anel Heljic will

24 be become IC 328. The next one tendered through Witness Dzevad Hadzizukic

25 will be given IC number 329. And the fourth which is an opposition to

Page 13446

1 admission of evidence tendered through Witness Dzevad Hadzizukic will be

2 given IC number 330.

3 Furthermore, would I like to make a clarification regarding last

4 Thursday's transcript dated 1st of February, 2007. During OTP's

5 re-examination, on page 13383, line 20 of the transcript, Mr. Scott asked

6 for the photograph bearing number IC 303. In fact, we were looking at IC

7 304.

8 On page 13384, line 9, Mr. Scott asked the witness to look at IC

9 304, but in fact we were looking at IC 305.

10 And finally, on page 13384, line 18 to 22, where it was unclear if

11 we were looking at IC 305 or IC 302, in fact we were looking at IC 303.

12 Thank you for your attention.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar, for

14 the explanations you gave us.

15 Before we carry on with the witness testimonies, I'd like to go

16 back to a confusion that arose at the end of last week. When the witness

17 left the room, Counsel Tomic got up to tell us that she wasn't able to ask

18 her questions, and I remember that Counsel Tomic did in fact get up on her

19 feet and then sat down, after which I gave the floor to the Prosecution

20 for the re-examination, and the Prosecution went on to ask those

21 questions, and I thanked the witness for coming in to testify.

22 When the witness had left, Counsel Tomic told us that she wasn't

23 able to ask her questions on behalf of her client, Mr. Coric. And then in

24 the transcript -- we read out the questions in the transcript and for the

25 transcript the questions that she wanted to ask. We looked into those

Page 13447

1 questions during the weekend, we examined them, and it appears that most

2 of those questions were already broached and dealt with during the

3 cross-examination by other counsel and that the essential point as far as

4 the Chamber is concerned is to know whether when the sniper was in the

5 house or fired from the house, whether there was a flash and whether the

6 witness could have seen the flash from the sniper fire.

7 The expert witness who will be coming sometime after tomorrow will

8 be able to answer that question. So there is no absolute need to put any

9 additional questions to the witness. And let me repeat that he answered

10 this question several times saying that he saw the flash.

11 Nevertheless, if Counsel Tomic would like to have the witness

12 recalled to answer her questions, I shall ask the Defence to put it in

13 writing and then we will give a ruling on the request made in writing for

14 that. But as I say, I think that when the expert witness comes in they

15 will be able to address your preoccupations.

16 Now, we're a little -- running a little late because two witnesses

17 were supposed to be last week and we didn't have time, so we're going to

18 hear them now. And I'd like to ask the Prosecution to accelerate the

19 proceedings as much as possible. We have the third witness today and the

20 fourth will come in tomorrow afternoon. Is that right, Mr. Mundis?

21 MR. MUNDIS: Good afternoon, Your Honours, counsel, and everyone

22 in and around the courtroom. That is correct. We will pick up where we

23 left off last week. I would hope that we can get through three of those

24 witnesses today and move the second witness that was scheduled for today

25 until tomorrow to be followed immediately by the expert witness.

Page 13448

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let's move into

2 private session for a moment, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 13449











11 Pages 13449-13450 redacted. Private session















Page 13451

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, would you please stand to

9 take the solemn declaration. And can you give me your name, surname, and

10 date of birth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Damir Katica, the 24th of April,

14 1981.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you a profession, sir,

16 current occupation.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified before

19 an international or national Tribunal on the events that took place in

20 your country or is this the first time that you're testifying?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, would you now go ahead and

23 read the solemn declaration presented to you by the usher.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 13452

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You may be

2 seated. Some explanations from me to begin with.

3 You're going to be first of all answering questions put to you by

4 the Prosecution. The Prosecution might also be presenting you with

5 certain documents, and after that first stage we come to stage two, which

6 is the Defence counsel and the cross-examination. They will be asking you

7 questions. The Judges sitting in front of you can also ask you questions

8 at any time if they think it necessary.

9 The Defence will have one hour, but it would be advisable if the

10 Defence can reduce that time, and we would be very grateful to them

11 because we have three witnesses coming in today.

12 Mr. Mundis, without further ado, I give you the floor.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Before I read the summary

14 of the witness's written evidence, I neglected to mention that I am

15 accompanied today by our intern Aleksandra Bojovic.

16 I'm taking the summary from the 65 ter summary in early 2006. The

17 witness lived in West Mostar in July 1993. When the witness was 12 the

18 Croatian Defence Council arrested his father and detained him in

19 Heliodrom. The witness and his mother moved to another part of West

20 Mostar. A month later the Croatian Defence Council expelled the witness

21 and his family after robbing them of their valuables.

22 The Croatian Defence Council soldiers took seven or eight Muslim

23 families in a van to Bulevar near the confrontation lines and told them to

24 cross towards the armija Bosnia-Herzegovina positions. During the

25 crossing the witness and his grandfather were told to carry the dead

Page 13453

1 bodies of two males to the Muslim side. Witness and his family then lived

2 in Donja Mahala, East Mostar, which was under constant shelling and firing

3 by the Croatian Defence Council. Muslim civilians lived in shelters.

4 In September 1993, the witness went home and was returning to the

5 shelter through safe route of small alleys. However, there were open

6 spots which had to be crossed which snipers had a clear view of.

7 Orucevica Sokak was one of these with snipers in Stotina. The witness

8 crossed this spot almost every day. He and 14-year-old Neno clearly

9 children in civilian clothes started to run across the four metres of open

10 ground. A bullet hit Neno in his arm and then hit the witness in the

11 stomach. Neno was sniped again in the hip and fell down. The witness

12 turned back and tried to pull Neno in safety. When he tried to grab Neno,

13 he felt that something went through his hair and right after that

14 something else scratched the inside of his left upper arm. The witness

15 realised that the sniper was still shooting and got so scared that he did

16 not dare to pull Neno in safety.

17 The witness ran to the infirmary to get a stretcher to transport

18 Neno. At the infirmary he noticed that he was wounded too. After surgery

19 in the war hospital, witness took about two months to recover.

20 Examination by Mr. Mundis:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Katica.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. Sir, back in approximately August of 2001, did you provide a

24 statement to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13454

1 Q. At that point in time, sir, did you answer the questions

2 truthfully and to the best of your recollection?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. At the conclusion of that interview was your statement read back

5 to you in the Bosnian language?

6 A. Yes. No.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what his answer was,

8 please?


10 Q. Can you repeat the answer? Was the statement read back to you in

11 the Bosnian language?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you then, sir, sign the written English version of your

14 statement?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 MR. MUNDIS: I'd ask if the usher could be of assistance, please,

17 in handing the witness this bundle of exhibits.

18 Q. Mr. Katica, if you could please turn to the first, exhibit P

19 09861. P 09861. Sir, is that your written statement that you provided to

20 the Office of the Prosecutor in August 2001?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. And, sir, when you arrived here in The Hague in the middle of last

23 week, were you provided with a copy of that statement?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. And was that statement that you were provided in the Bosnian

Page 13455

1 language?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have an opportunity to thoroughly read that statement?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Is there anything, Mr. Katica, that you would like to add to your

6 written statement?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Is there anything that you would like to change with respect to

9 your written statement?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Is there anything that you would like to delete from your written

12 statement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I were to ask you the questions that the investigator asked you,

15 sir, here in court would your answers be the same as those reflected in

16 the written statement?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Katica, while you were that bundle in front of you, could you

19 please turn to P 05613. If you could please turn to the tab P 05613.

20 Have you seen this document before, sir?

21 A. Yes, I have.

22 Q. What is this document?

23 A. It's the discharge paper from the hospital when I was let go after

24 my wounding.

25 Q. Now, sir, with respect to the wounding that you've mentioned,

Page 13456

1 could you please tell the Trial Chamber where you were wounded, what part

2 of your body?

3 A. In my stomach, the abdomen.

4 Q. Anywhere else?

5 A. My arm.

6 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask -- I would ask with the assistance of the

7 usher that the witness be shown -- or be placed in front of the witness

8 three photographs which form part of P 09220. I'd ask the usher to please

9 put those photos on the ELMO.

10 Q. Mr. Katica, do you recognise the photographs that are now to your

11 right and also visible on the screen in front of you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what those photographs are,

14 please?

15 A. My stomach and the entrance/exit wound on the stomach.

16 Q. Could we please turn to the next photograph, please. And again,

17 Mr. Katica, do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

18 A. I recognise my arm and the place where the bullet hit me.

19 MR. MUNDIS: I would now ask with the assistance of our case

20 manager if the witness could be shown a video which is part of P --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need two IC numbers for each

22 of the photographs. So two IC numbers, for the stomach and for the arm.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 331 and IC 332.

24 MR. MUNDIS: If the witness could now be shown P 09140. We will

25 be showing this, Mr. President and Your Honours, via Sanction.

Page 13457

1 Q. Mr. Katica, if you could please look at the screen in front of you

2 as this video plays, please.

3 [Videotape played]

4 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, please indicate the open area that you

5 were planning to ran across?

6 "Witness: [Indicates]

7 "Investigator: Thank you. Mr. Katica, to the best of your

8 recollection could you please indicate the location where you were, when

9 the first shot at while you were trying to pass the open area?

10 "Witness: [Indicates]

11 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, to the best of your recollection could

12 you please assume the position you were in when you were first shot at?

13 "Witness: [Indicates]

14 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please point out where you

15 were hit by the first shot?

16 "Witness: [Indicates]

17 "Investigator: Thank you. I will now mark with yellow X the spot

18 where the witness was shot at.

19 "Mr. Katica, to the best of your recollection could you please

20 indicate the location where you were shot at the second time when you

21 tried to help the injured friend?

22 "Witness: [Indicates]

23 "Investigator: I will mark that spot also with a yellow X.

24 Mr. Katica, to the best of your recollection could you please assume the

25 position you were in when you were hit the second time?

Page 13458

1 "Witness: [Indicates]

2 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please indicate where you

3 were hit the second time?

4 "Witness: [Indicates]

5 "Investigator: Thank you. Mr. Katica, to the best of your

6 recollection was that tree with the purple blossoms already that big in

7 1993?

8 "Witness: [Interpretation] No.

9 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, to the best of your recollection was

10 the house with a satellite dish already there in 1993?

11 "Witness: [Interpretation] Yes, but it was smaller.

12 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, thank you very much."


14 Q. Mr. Katica, do you recall meeting with investigator Spork and

15 making this videotape?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you understand all of the instruction that is Mr. Spork asked

18 you?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. And, sir, did you answer all of his questions truthfully and to

21 the best of your recollection?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Katica, at the time that Neno and yourself were both

24 shot, did you have any indication or any knowledge as to where the shooter

25 was located?

Page 13459

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where you believe the shooter was

3 located?

4 A. Stotina.

5 Q. And, sir, what lead you to that conclusion?

6 A. Well, that's where the sniper must have shot at us. It was only

7 from that position that he could have hit us where we were.

8 MR. MUNDIS: I'm going to ask now, Mr. President, that that video

9 clip be shown once again to the witness, and we will -- I will ask that

10 the tape stop at a certain location.

11 Q. Mr. Katica, we're going to play that tape again, and if you see

12 the Stotina location on tape I would ask you to please tell us and we'll

13 stop the tape. Do you understand that?

14 A. Yes, I understand that.

15 [Videotape played]

16 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, would you please indicated the open

17 area that you were planning to ran across?

18 "Witness: [Indicates]

19 "Investigator: Thank you. Mr. Katica, to the best of your

20 recollection could you please indicate the location where you were when

21 the -- where you were first shot at while trying to cross the open area?

22 "Witness: [Indicates]

23 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, to the best of your recollection could

24 you please assume the position you were in when you were first shot at?

25 "Witness: [Indicates]

Page 13460

1 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please point out where you

2 were hit by the first shot?

3 "Witness: [Indicates]

4 "Investigator: Thank you. I will now mark a yellow X on the spot

5 where the witness was shot at. Mr. Katica, to the best of your

6 recollection could you please indicate the location where you were shot at

7 for the second time when you tried to helped the injured friend?

8 "Witness: [Indicates]

9 "Investigator: I will mark that spot also with a yellow X.

10 THE WITNESS: Stop. Stop.


12 Q. Is that the spot that you asked us to stop, sir?

13 A. No. No.

14 [Videotape played]

15 "Investigator: I will mark that spot also with a yellow X.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.


18 Q. Sir, what can you tell us about this freeze frame that's now in

19 front of you?

20 A. You can seeing the house from which the sniper fired at this

21 spot.

22 Q. Can you please describe for us where you see this house, sir?

23 A. A bit further down the street, in the middle of the street. You

24 can see the house there. You can see the two windows of the house.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps, Mr. President, if we play the tape a little

Page 13461

1 bit further there is a spot where the camera zooms in slightly. If we

2 could continue.

3 [Videotape played]

4 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, to the best of your recollection could

5 you please assume the position you were in when you were hit the second

6 time?

7 "Witness: [Indicates]

8 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please indicate where you

9 were hit the second time?

10 "Witness: [Indicates]

11 "Investigator: Thank you. Mr. Katica, to the best of your

12 recollection was that tree with the purple blossom already that big in

13 1993?

14 "Witness: [Interpretation] No.

15 "Investigator: Mr. Katica, to the best of your recollection was

16 the house with --"


18 Q. Now, Mr. Katica, can you now see the house that you were referring

19 to earlier?

20 A. Yes, I can see it.

21 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, we have captured a

22 still from this spot on the videotape, and we'd ask that this be placed on

23 the ELMO before the witness, please, and I'd ask that he be provided with

24 a thin marker.

25 Q. Mr. Katica, if you're in a position to do so, I'd ask you to take

Page 13462

1 the marker and on the photograph to your right if you could please circle

2 the house that you've been describing where the shooting was located.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Can you please, sir, put your initials or sign the bottom

5 right-hand corner of that photograph, please.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And, sir, just for the record, can you --

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we'll be in a

11 state of utter confusion. Two houses have been circles here, and they're

12 about a hundred metres from each other. It would be good if the

13 Prosecutor could mark very precisely the house from which according to the

14 witness fire was opened. Thank you.


16 Q. Sir, could you -- could you please take the pen, and I want you to

17 trace the outline -- listen carefully before you start marking. I want

18 you to trace the outline of the house that the shooter was located in to

19 the best of your knowledge.

20 A. [Marks]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have an IC number for

22 this photograph, Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC 333.


25 Q. Now, Mr. Katica, while that photo is still next to you, if you

Page 13463

1 could please take a look at it. To the immediate left of the outline that

2 you just drew of the roof of the house, what is that to the immediate left

3 of that house?

4 A. I made a mistake. That's where the house from which the sniper

5 fired is located. I marked the wrong house.

6 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me just be very clear. Can you again, sir --

7 you've made a mark on what appears to be the roof of a house. Can you

8 please draw or sketch around the entire house that you believe the sniper

9 was in?

10 A. [Marks]

11 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, to eliminate the possibility of

12 confusion, I wonder if the Prosecutor has another print of this

13 photographer, because if it goes into the record like that we will never

14 be able to know which -- which was which.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you don't have another

16 photograph, I'll provide you with my one.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, we could also put numbers, 1 for the

18 error the gentleman made and 2 for the correct one. That way we have the

19 original markings which designates the error the gentleman made on the

20 record.


22 Q. If you could now, sir, please trace the outline of the house that

23 you believe the sniper was in.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Thank you, sir?

Page 13464

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mark it with number 1.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Prosecution.

4 Witness, since you made a mistake, you marked the wrong house, but

5 there are two houses there nevertheless, and the first one that you

6 recognised also seems to have a window. So my question is are the two

7 houses next to each other as it appears in the photograph, or is there

8 some distance between the two houses and, if so, what is the distance

9 between them?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is some distance between the

11 two houses. I don't know how many metres exactly, but they are not next

12 to each other. There is a gap between them.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Perhaps the Prosecution will pose

14 this question, but how is it that you are certain that fire was opened

15 from one of those two houses and not from the other one?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because the first house that I

17 marked isn't in Stotina. It's below Stotina. Whereas the we are one is

18 in Stotina, and the sniper certainly fired from it.

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] That is exactly the question, but

20 I'll let the Prosecution continue. Perhaps we'll resolve the matter.

21 There are two houses there, and you say that it's from the left house that

22 fire was open. But why not from the right house? But I will let the

23 Prosecution continue.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. We'd go now that the

Page 13465

1 witness be shown the 360-degree photograph which is P 09319.

2 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, before that's done, could we have an IC

3 number for the second photograph that the witness marked on, please.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 334.


7 Q. Mr. Katica, do you recognise what's now shown on the screen in

8 front of you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask that this photograph be slowly rotated to

11 the left, and I would ask you if you can --

12 MR. MUNDIS: If we could ask the usher to please set the system

13 back to Sanction.

14 Q. Sir, can you tell us what this -- what this photograph depicts?

15 A. This is the spot at which I was wounded.

16 Q. Okay. If we could slowly rotate the picture to the left, please.

17 Stop there.

18 Mr. Katica, what does this picture depict?

19 A. It's the other part of the Orucevica street and this is a wall at

20 the location that we had to run by.

21 Q. Is this -- sir, on the day that you and Neno were shot, is this

22 where you were going or is this where you were coming from?

23 A. This is the location that we were to cross over to, Neno and I.

24 Q. And if we could then please keep rotating in the same direction.

25 Stop there, please.

Page 13466

1 What does this depict, Mr. Katica?

2 A. This is where I took shelter when I tried to get Neno out.

3 Q. And if we could just please continue back the same direction.

4 That's fine. Can we please zoom in on this photograph.

5 Now, sir, again could you recognise the houses -- or the house you

6 indicated was the location of the sniper in this photograph?

7 A. Yes. It's not very clear, but yes.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honours, if it would be helpful, we do have a

9 still of this photograph as well that we can ask the witness to mark, or

10 if that's not necessary we can move on.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness should put his

12 initials on document 334. He forgot to do so.

13 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question I'd

15 like to put to you, because we have just seen the 360-degree photograph.

16 And when I saw it, I was wondering whether the shot could have been fired

17 from two other directions. You're quite categorical about the fact that

18 the fire -- that the shot was fired from the house that you were pointed

19 out to us?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And on what basis do you make

22 such a claim?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we know that the sniper opened

24 fire from that position. There were three houses in Stotina where you

25 can't see one in the photograph because it's a little further away, and

Page 13467

1 the direction of the bullet led us to believe that the bullet must have

2 been fired from that house in Stotina.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say "we knew." Was this a

4 well-known fact in the area that there was a sniper who was in that house

5 in Stotina? Did everyone know about that? And is that why everyone was

6 so careful when they went out into the space that you have pointed out to

7 us?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to put also a question to you,

11 Mr. Katica. At the moment in the video when you show your first wounds,

12 it seemed to me that your right hand was on the upper right part of your

13 belly and with your left hand you reached behind at the spot further down

14 above your hip. Did these points mark the entry and exit of the bullet or

15 is it just an accident that you had one hand in the area of your kidneys?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I pointed to the entry and exit

17 wound.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


20 Q. Finally, Mr. Katica, if you could please look at the screen. We

21 have another image that's contained on P 09139. Do you see that in front

22 of you, sir?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what's depicted in the lower half of this

25 photograph?

Page 13468

1 A. You can see the house that I marked just a minute ago in the other

2 photograph, the house from which the sniper opened fire.

3 Q. And again with the assistance of the usher we have a still that's

4 been captured from this photograph and I would ask the witness: Sir, if

5 you could take the black marker and circle the house that you're referring

6 to.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And if you could please put your initials, sir, on that

9 photograph.

10 A. [Marks].

11 MR. KARNAVAS: And just for the record, I mean the photograph is

12 highly suggest when you do have a red marker there. We might as well just

13 put an arrow and say is this the house. I mean, it's just really rather

14 suggestive, I would say. And I know I'm dealing with professional Judges,

15 but even in this context.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, this house

17 that you have pointed to, why do you claim that this is the house that the

18 sniper was hidden in? Do you have any additional information you could

19 provide us with?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm saying that was the case

21 because it's only from that position that he could have opened fire on us.

22 And people said that there was a sniper in that house. People would see

23 him open fire at night. It's only from that position, only from that

24 direction that the bullet could have hit us.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, because according

Page 13469

1 to the document from the hospital you left on the 4th of October.

2 Apparently you went to hospital on the 1st of October. So it was towards

3 the end of September that you were hit. But at the time who controlled

4 the house, the HVO or the ABiH? Tell us if you know and, if not, just say

5 so.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HVO controlled it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Madam Registrar, could we have a number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 335.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it would perhaps be

11 good to wrap this up now.

12 MR. MUNDIS: I have no further questions, Mr. President. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence then has

15 an hour at the most. If you can use less time, that would be even better.

16 Mr. Karnavas.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I do have a few

18 questions to pose to the gentleman.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

20 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. Now, you indicated that everybody knew that that was the house

23 that where so-called snipers were operating under; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I take it the -- the army of BiH, they had their own

Page 13470

1 snipers?

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 Q. Really?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Are you sure about that?

6 A. I'm sure that I don't know whether the armija had its own snipers.

7 I can't say that it did, and I can't say that it didn't.

8 Q. I'm not asking you where they were. Are you suggesting here under

9 oath to these Judges that while you lived there you didn't know that the

10 army of BiH had snipers operating on that side of the confrontation line?

11 Yes, no?

12 A. As to whether I knew or not, well, I don't know. They were

13 probably there but I didn't see them. That's what I said. I didn't see

14 them.

15 Q. All right. But you're not suggesting that they were not

16 operating, they didn't a snipers?

17 A. I'm not making such a claim. I don't know about that.

18 Q. Okay. I'm confused a little bit. Let me out here. You either

19 know that there were snipers or there were not snipers. Now, are you

20 suggesting under oath here, okay, and I'm stressing "under oath" because

21 you could be penalised for that. Are you stressing under oath that you

22 had no knowledge that there were snipers on the Muslim side?

23 A. Even if there were snipers they didn't open fire on us. I don't

24 know where they were, but they probably were somewhere. That's what I

25 said.

Page 13471

1 Q. Okay. Well, I'm not asking whether they opened fire on you. I

2 want to make sure that I get a clear answer from you that there were

3 snipers working on the Muslim side. Yes or no? To your knowledge.

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. I have no idea.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. Probably.

9 Q. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Now, if

10 everybody knew that this house was a sniper house, I suspect that if there

11 were snipers working on the Muslim side, a matter which you're unsure of,

12 although you say probably now, they would know where to fire at to take

13 out the snipers; right? Kind of complicated --

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Karnavas. You're really asking

15 the witness to make all sort of supposition and --


17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: -- and assumptions. "You think they would have

18 done this." How is the witness supposed to give a testimony about what

19 possibly existing ABiH snipers would perhaps have done if they had known

20 this or thus that is --

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm glad ---

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You would criticise this if someone else did it,

23 I'm sure.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I'm glad that you asked the question,

25 Your Honour because, you see, I sat there and I listened to the gentleman

Page 13472

1 say, "There we all knew. We all knew." I didn't hear a question from

2 you, Your Honour, saying, "Tell us sir, exactly, concretely, how, sir, did

3 you know." So here he is speculating that we all knew. Where is the

4 concreteness? And I pose the question that if people knew that this was

5 such a notorious place where snipers were working out of, why didn't

6 anybody react to it? That's the whole point of the exercise.

7 Q. So if you knew, the army of BiH would have known, if you were just

8 a citizen? May I put it that way?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question that counsel is

10 asking you is something that I gave thought to this weekend. How come,

11 Witness, because you're not the first person to speak to us about that

12 house, apparently the house was well-known as a place where there was a

13 sniper, so how come the BiH did not attack that house, did not fire at

14 that house, did not send a rocket to blow it up? Have you got an

15 explanation or not?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Much more

17 articulate than my question was, but exactly the point I was trying to

18 drive home at.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Answer my

20 question first, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Donja Mahala where I lived during

22 the war and where I live to this day, where there was an open space and

23 where you could see the house from, that's where the sniper shot, where

24 you could see the house at Stotina.

25 Now, whether the BH army shot at the house are didn't, I don't

Page 13473

1 know. I was a child. I was in a shelter, and it was rarely that we saw a

2 soldier. And if we saw a soldier they would be with ordinary rifles. I

3 just said I didn't know.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you were wounded together

5 with your friend, and you were taken to a hospital straight away belonging

6 to the BH army because it says -- the document says a hospital of the BH

7 army. I assume that they asked you where you were wounded, and you

8 probably said, "I was wounded in such-and-such a locality." And now the

9 question that I'm asking myself is, how come the BH army didn't send a

10 sniper for their part, a commando or whoever else, to go and destroy that

11 particular house? Do you have an explanation for that, or is there none?

12 Is it that it was a war and things like that? Because one gains the

13 impression, sir, and we listened to the testimony of a number of victims

14 telling us that there were sniper shots, sniper fire, and we can localise

15 the places, but one wonders that afterwards nothing happened.

16 So you, since you were a victim yourself and lived in the area,

17 and you left on the 4th of October so you probably returned to that

18 district, that nothing happened?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nothing happened -- or, rather,

20 I don't know. I was operated on in the hospital, and when I left I was at

21 home for almost a month recuperating.

22 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would have liked to have asked my question

23 before our Presiding Judge, Judge Antonetti, asks his question.

24 It is my impression and I would like to ask the witness if he may

25 confirm that, that he was a 12-year-old child at that time. And I believe

Page 13474

1 that it is what the starting point should be if we are asking him

2 questions. And definitely in my view some of the questions went beyond

3 that very important issue of what was his age, the witness's age at that

4 time. And of course later on he might have known. He might have got some

5 more information what the snipers' activity was on both sides, but I

6 believe in the present case his not to testify about what later on he

7 knows about sniper activities in general, but the issue is now what kind

8 of present -- I mean, in his case, what kind of happenings were what he

9 were able to note. That is why I would say that the issue is that what he

10 thought the direction of the shot was come from, and it is not that what

11 he thought about, if the BH army had sniper activities.

12 So I would like to ask the witness, that's why, to confirm or deny

13 that in his view and in the -- in his knowledge when he was shot from what

14 direction the entry wound was effected in his body and what was his you

15 view of that time about the major direction where the shot had come -- has

16 come. It is my question to you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you heard what the

18 Judge said. Can you answer the question?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the entrance/exit wound was

20 such that I can only claim that the -- that the firing had come from

21 Stotina, that it had been shot from Stotina.

22 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you. Thank you.


24 Q. Very well. Just a couple of more questions. We saw a lot of

25 photographs here, some that you circled and initialed. Now, those

Page 13475

1 photographs, they don't depict -- they're not a fair and accurate

2 depiction of that area as it was on the day that you were shot; is that

3 correct?

4 A. The alleyway didn't look like it did on the photograph. The

5 street didn't look like that.

6 Q. But there were also it would appear to me at least that some of

7 the buildings might have been fixed or even were built up since that

8 period of time; correct?

9 A. You mean the buildings which I claim that the sniper fire came

10 from?

11 Q. All sorts of buildings, not just that one.

12 A. Well, yes. Most of them had been fixed.

13 Q. Okay. But we don't have any photographs today for you to look at

14 and show to us that are a fair and accurate depiction of that location on

15 the day that you were shot so at least we could trace back to see whether

16 the shooter had an unobstructed view, wherever he might have been, and

17 also to look at the universe of possibilities where the shots might have

18 been able to come from. We don't have that today, do we?

19 A. I'm sorry, but I didn't understand your question.

20 Q. Very well. I'm sure the -- I'm sure the Judges understood the

21 question.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

24 Mr. Murphy.

25 MR. MURPHY: We have no questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13476

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, counsel.

2 Next counsel, please.

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Praljak, with your

4 permission, would like to ask a few questions.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, shall I start

6 off or are we going to take a break?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have the break afterwards.

8 Perhaps we'll need to rest after having heard your questions.

9 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. I'd just like to ask you some technical questions. May we have on

13 the Elmo 3D 00748. It is a photograph 3D 220644. So 3D 00748 and the

14 photograph is 3D 220644.

15 Until that comes up on our screens let me ask you this: You were

16 12 years old at the time. That's not a lot but it's not little either.

17 So at that time, did you know that Donja Mahala was the first defence line

18 of the BiH army in defending its part of Mostar. Did you know that at

19 that time?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. But the place that I was wounded at --

23 Q. I'm going to ask you the questions. We won't go into that now.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] That's not the right

25 photograph. 3D 22-0644 is the number I would like, 3D 22-0644.

Page 13477

1 Q. Now, when you were a 12-year-old child at the time, in walking

2 down the alleyways and streets did you see the BH army, soldiers of the BH

3 army armed? Did you see them walking around and going up to the lines

4 they were defending?

5 A. I said a moment ago we would see them from time to time.

6 Q. Now, my next question is this, this is something that His Honour

7 asked you: We looked at some documents and heard that at the end of

8 September when you were wounded, from the 20th of September there was a

9 large-scale offensive - and I'm asking you whether you know anything about

10 that - in which the BH army took part of human so on. Do you know any of

11 that, anything about that operation? Did you hear any shooting, any

12 advance on the BH army side? When you were a child, did you know anything

13 about that, that they had taken part of Hum at that time?

14 A. Well, I did hear shooting, but we were in the shelter so we didn't

15 have any information on that.

16 Q. On the 30th of September a truce was signed, but do you know

17 that -- did you know that -- it is possible to take Hum without taking

18 Stotina, so that part of Hum was taken control of? You were a child. Of

19 course you needn't know anything about this, but do you have to pass

20 Stotina to get to Hum if you want to take control of Hum? Do you know

21 that today or did you know that then?

22 A. From this point in time I can say that it would be easiest to get

23 there by going through Stotina.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Now may we have the next

25 exhibit, please.

Page 13478

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, we don't seem to

2 have your photograph on e-court. Do you have the photograph yourself?

3 Perhaps we can place it on the overhead projector if you do.

4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I have been informed that

5 the photographs are on e-court.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Microphone not activated]. We did inform the

7 client that the pictures are loaded in the e-court, but obviously not yet.

8 They are. We're checking on the list. They are on the list. They are

9 loaded. But perhaps Mr. Praljak can give his copy to ELMO.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] A copy, yes, but it's much

11 nicer to see it in colour on our screens.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course it is but if we

13 haven't got one --

14 MR. KOVACIC: We have it directly from the Court.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Counsel would you give us the number again because

16 the one he gave us definitely is not the right one.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D 00748, and then 3D

18 22-0644. Those are the numbers I have. But let's move on not to waste

19 time.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it will be of assistance if

21 I say it's page 53 in 3D 00748. So the page is 3D 22-0644, or if you take

22 the pages in order, it is page -- at page 53.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, but here the last page is page 23 and bears

24 number 3D 22-0614.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] We'll be able to see

Page 13479

1 everything even with these copies placed on the ELMO.

2 Q. Witness, I'd just like to complete my questioning. That is the

3 house at Stotina. We discussed this issue at great length. Is that the

4 building? Is that the house from which you claim or assume that the

5 sniper shot when you were wounded?

6 A. I can't say because this isn't a very clear picture.

7 Q. A moment ago you saw that same building, and we've shown it

8 umpteen times so far. You saw the same building marked in red on the

9 Prosecutor's photograph. It is a building at Stotina that has been

10 identified a number of times, and a witness whose name I can't tell you

11 now testified that the upper floor of that particular building during the

12 war did not exist. There was no upper floor. However, as we've seen a

13 picture of this house five times already as being the house where the

14 sniping fire came from, can you see on the house the quantity of bullets

15 that hit that house? Can you see the large number of bullets fired at

16 that house?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And now this uppermost story, could we assume it was hit by a

19 bullet or not?

20 A. Well, I can't see properly.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in?

22 Q. And on the right-hand building, the other one -- you can take up

23 the photograph in your hands and take a close look at it. Pick the

24 photograph up. Pick the photograph up and take a good look at it and tell

25 us whether there are a large number of holes where the bullets hit the

Page 13480

1 house.

2 A. I can't see.

3 Q. All right. You can't see. Then let's move on.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on the photograph that

5 Mr. Praljak is showing us, I can see, and take note that there are traces

6 of bullets when they impacted on the house, around the windows.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean on the big house?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said I saw the traces on

10 that.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Now, Witness, if you take a good look at what you marked on the

13 Prosecution photograph as the Stotina area, do you agree that the building

14 you marked in there and that this building are the same building?

15 A. They seem to be the same ones, but I can't say for sure because I

16 can't see where they're situated. I haven't got the whole aerial view.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, the photograph that

18 you're showing us, what year was that taken, because the Prosecution

19 photograph is a recent one, whereas your one seems to be much older. So

20 what year was that photograph taken?

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It was taken recently. Not

22 a long time ago, no. Nothing much changed there. I took the

23 photograph -- well, I don't know if it was this one or some other ones.

24 When I looked into the problem of the destruction of the old bridge,

25 that's when I made the photographs. But it is clear that hundreds, not to

Page 13481

1 say thousands of bullets hit that building and we can see the traces.

2 But let's move on to the next photograph, please.

3 Q. That's the same photograph, and you can see that the uppermost

4 storey has been added on, and that is what one the witnesses also said.

5 We'll find another photograph to show that this building and the one

6 identified by the witness on the Prosecution photograph is one and the

7 same.

8 May I have the next photograph, please.

9 Do you recognise this as being Stotina? This is a little right

10 from the building I mentioned, turned towards Hum. Do you recognise that

11 area?

12 A. I assume that's Stotina. It looks like it.

13 Q. Right. That's Stotina. Now, do you see that pole on the

14 right-hand side?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May I have the next

17 photograph now, please?

18 Q. And behind the pole you saw that small house. Let's return to the

19 previous photograph again.

20 Witness, to the right of the pole, can you see that small house

21 there? Do you see a small house over there?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Now let's have the next

24 photograph.

25 Q. That's the pole which is facing east. Look at the number of

Page 13482

1 bullet traces on just an ordinary electric wire pole. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you as a 12-year-old boy, do you remember the amount of

4 ammunition fired from the east as well, because -- would you agree with me

5 that we're looking at the pole from the east?

6 A. That's what it looks like, yes.

7 Q. Now, do you agree that there are dozens of traces of strong

8 projectile impacts, not just ordinary calibre ones but higher calibre ones

9 as well? Would you agree with me there?

10 A. Yes, I would.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May we have a look at the

12 next photograph, please.

13 Q. Here it is. That is a view from Stotina; is that right? Do you

14 agree with me there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And on the right you see these residential buildings, do you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is what I'm going to say correct, that those residential buildings

19 were built before the war, regardless of whether people had moved into

20 them and so on? But they were as tall as they are now, that they were

21 built before?

22 A. Well, these buildings were under construction, and we as children

23 called them the construction sites, but they weren't finished.

24 Q. All right. They hadn't -- construction hadn't been completed but

25 they had reached roof level?

Page 13483

1 A. No, they hadn't reached roof level.

2 Q. All right. Now, on this photograph could you show us where your

3 alleyway is?

4 A. I can't show you that from here, from this angle of vision and

5 from this photograph. I don't see where it is.

6 Q. Well, do you see these two twin buildings that are referred to as

7 Sokol? Is it to the left or to the right?

8 A. To the left.

9 Q. Well, give us a rough estimate of where that alleyway would be.

10 We have time. Think about it, and see if you can't show us your alleyway

11 on that photograph.

12 A. I can't say. I really can't find it here.

13 Q. This is the position of the sniper shooting at you. When you say

14 looking at it from the alleyway you saw a building and the house was white

15 on a photograph showed by the Prosecutor, whereas I showed you a

16 photograph which is not all white because there was a darker area of

17 bricks on the top floor, but try. Your alleyway, did it run parallel to

18 the -- these two buildings that we refer to as the Sokol buildings or not?

19 Try and take up your pencil and indicate the alleyway. Does it run from

20 Hum down the Neretva or what direction?

21 A. Orucevica alleyway should look like this. It runs this way.

22 There are two entrances to the alleyway.

23 Q. Now, in what part of that alleyway were you hit? I'm sorry to

24 have to ask you this, but where were you when you were hit on that path?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 13484

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Very well. I have no more

2 questions. Could we have IC numbers for these exhibits?

3 Thank you, Witness.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, may we have the

5 IC numbers, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be IC 336.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We're going to take

8 a 20-minute break and reconvene in 20 minutes' time.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume. I'd like to

12 greet Mr. Scott, and I will now give the floor to the next Defence team.

13 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But before I do so, Witness,

15 there is a photograph on which you should mark your initials.

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Is the photograph that is

20 Stotina according to the witness one that has also been given an IC

21 number?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. IC 336, according to my

23 understanding, covers all the photographs.

24 Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you so much, Your Honour.

Page 13485

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:

2 Q. Witness, on the particular day you described you were on your way

3 to a shelter because there was heavy shelling and firing. That was the

4 starting point, wasn't it?

5 A. I was on my way to a shelter; yes, that's right. I had set off

6 from home and was heading toward a shelter.

7 Q. Yes. Just recapping your evidence in your statement that you

8 confirm it was because of heavy shelling and firing. So what I want to

9 get clear is that as you were crossing that very short gap where you say

10 you and your friend were shot, was the -- the street that tree that we saw

11 in the picture and the houses that you marked, you marked both of them and

12 then you marked one of them, those were all down the street to your right,

13 were they?

14 A. I haven't understood that. Could you repeat that, please?

15 Q. Well, I'm just asking you to picture because you were there.

16 You're crossing that short gap, the one where there's the telegraph pole,

17 the very gap where you have described you and your friends -- friend as

18 being shot. I just want to be clear. That tree and then beyond it down

19 at the end of the road, the two houses on high ground that you were asked

20 to look at on the photograph, as you went over that short piece of -- of

21 the alleyway, the road, those were all down to your right; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Roughly speaking, yes. To the right.

24 Q. Yes. And you gestured just then with your right hand to confirm

25 that -- that it was. Now -- but it's equally clear, is it, I want to be

Page 13486

1 absolutely plain because this is what we saw in the photographs and this

2 is what you've described, that the entry wound is on your left-hand side,

3 isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So -- well, can we also get this clear: You say in your statement

6 that at first you had no idea that you had been shot. That's right, isn't

7 it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what you did was you then -- because you appreciated that your

10 friend Neno had been shot, you went to his parents' house. Now, how far

11 away was his parents' house?

12 A. It was a few minutes from there.

13 Q. Could you give it in distance? Approximately is all I'm wanting,

14 just in distance.

15 A. Well, perhaps a hundred metres.

16 Q. So you went there, told them that Neno had been wounded, and then

17 you returned, and by the time you got back there were people standing

18 around Neno trying to bandage him. That's your evidence so far, and

19 you're not -- you're confirming that, aren't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then somebody said that Neno should be taken to the

22 infirmary, and you ran to the infirmary to get a stretcher. That's

23 right, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how far away was the infirmary from the point where Neno

Page 13487

1 was -- well, he was presumably lying on the ground or sitting on the

2 ground. How far was it from there to the infirmary?

3 A. Between 70 and a hundred metres.

4 Q. Do you remember what you were wearing? You said it was an autumn

5 day. It was an ordinary autumn day as far as you remember. Were you

6 wearing a T-shirt? Were you wearing a jacket? Do you have any memory of

7 that?

8 A. I was wearing the upper part of a tracksuit.

9 Q. So I just want to be clear that you go back and you are a

10 12-year-old boy who has had a bullet pass into the left-hand side of his

11 body and out of the right-hand side of his body, who has then run to

12 Neno's parents' house, run back, and these other people that were there

13 with Neno, nobody notices that you've been wounded, presumably, because

14 they send you to go and get the stretcher from the infirmary. Now, have

15 you got that right so far, that nobody, including you, even noticed at

16 that point that you had been wounded?

17 A. No one sent me to get the stretcher. I'd heard that a stretcher

18 was needed and I went to fetch the stretcher. It was in the clinic that

19 they noticed that I had been wounded. They saw the blood.

20 Q. That confirms, doesn't it, what I've just said. That is your

21 evidence in your statement, that it was at the clinic that you first

22 noticed. Confirm then you ran -- you ran, presumably. You ran to Neno's

23 house. You ran back. It was you that was suggested or volunteered to go

24 and get the stretcher from the infirmary. You ran off to the infirmary,

25 and in all that time nobody, including you, even noticed that you had been

Page 13488

1 shot so that a bullet had gone in one side of your stomach and out the

2 other. That's right, is it?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. So in fact you don't even know whether you -- you don't know when,

5 between the point that you arrived at the end of the alleyway and the

6 point when you got to the infirmary, you don't even know when in that

7 whole time you were shot, do you?

8 A. Well, that's more or less the case. All I felt was a certain

9 burning sensation, but I didn't pay much attention to it. I ran to Neno's

10 parents. I first tried to get him out and I couldn't. I ran to his

11 parents' and then returned.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. You said that the witness had been

13 shot through his stomach. Did you want to say stomach or, rather, belly?

14 Because it's not anatomically the same thing.

15 MR. STEWART: I'm afraid Your Honour with all due respect in

16 cross-examining in English there is no distinction between those purposes

17 of describing someone shot between the stomach and the belly but,

18 Your Honour, I'm not going to quibble about it because we can see from the

19 photographs where he was shot. It's not for you and me to enter into a

20 etymological discussion.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Your explanation is absolutely satisfactory.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. STEWART: I'm much obliged. That's the most important thing

24 for me, Your Honour.

25 Q. So -- so can we get this -- would you agree with this: The one

Page 13489

1 point, according to your recollection, when you could not have been shot

2 in the way you describe was as you crossed the end of that small road,

3 because you crossed with, according to you, the sniper hundreds of metres

4 down the road to your right and yet you were shot in the left-hand side.

5 So it obviously didn't happen at that point, did it?

6 A. No, that's when it happened. I was running across the proceed and

7 I was facing the direction from which the bullet came. It was quite

8 possible to determine the direction from which I had been hit. But at the

9 time I didn't really feel the -- the shot. All I felt was this burning

10 sensation. I didn't really pay much attention to it.

11 Q. Witness, let's get real. You didn't even know until you got to

12 the infirmary that you'd been shot. You don't describe any burning

13 feeling in your evidence or your statement. You had no idea you'd been

14 shot. Therefore, it follows you had -- at the time you had absolutely no

15 idea whatever where the shot was coming from that did wound you. That's

16 right, isn't it? No idea at the time whatever.

17 A. I did have an idea. I was shot from Stotina.

18 Q. Your idea comes entirely from discussion and consideration after

19 the event and putting together bits of knowledge with what you knew as a

20 12-year-old boy with what other people were telling you about what was

21 going on in Mostar. That's the reality, isn't it?

22 A. I know where I was and where the shot hit me from. I'm claiming

23 this. I can't be a hundred per cent sure, but my opinion is that the

24 bullet came from Stotina. You can see from the picture, from the

25 photograph, that I was hit.

Page 13490

1 Q. Can you offer any explanation of this? If you can't, say you

2 can't. If you can, please, let's -- Their Honours know what it is. In

3 some -- and I needn't trouble you with the details, but in some of the

4 materials we -- which we have been supplied, and it's -- so everybody else

5 knows what I'm talking about, it's an initial analysis of the incident

6 involving you, it's said the distance from the firing point to the

7 incident spot is approximately 800 to 900 metres. Just keep that figure

8 in your head. We have -- needn't trouble you with the details but we have

9 an expert report that deals with your incident and a number others that

10 says specifically based on the analysis of the experts that the distance

11 was 470 metres. So in all the material we've got we've got these two

12 rather different distances. One to remind ourselves of 470 metres and the

13 other of 800 to 900 metres. My question for you just, is are you in any

14 position to give any explanation from your own knowledge of how those

15 distances, those different distances emerged in the subsequent analysis of

16 the incident in which you were shot?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. And do you know whether the house from which you say shots were

19 fired at you, do you know whether that is 470 metres or thereabouts from

20 where you say you were shot, or is it more like 800 to 900 metres from

21 where you say you were shot?

22 A. I don't know. I don't know. If I were to go there on foot, it

23 would be 7 or 800 metres to Stotina, but the distance as the crow flies

24 would be less than that.

25 Q. As the crow flies, would it be more like 470, more like 800 to

Page 13491

1 900, or can't you say?

2 A. I don't know how you make these measurements of distances as the

3 crow flies. I can't make any comparisons. I really don't know.

4 MR. STEWART: I have no more questions, Your Honours. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Ms. Tomic, you

6 certainly have some questions.

7 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any questions

8 on this occasion.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I should have said, my client had asked

10 if he could ask questions. I thought he would pop up straight away. I

11 should have said so before the next counsel comes. I certainly wasn't

12 wishing to take that opportunity away from him.

13 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by the Accused Petkovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, witness. Orucevica street, can it be

16 seen from Hum or how much of it can be seen, if that is the case?

17 A. I don't know if you can see it from Hum. You have to go to a

18 certain position to see it.

19 Q. What is it, if it's Hum?

20 A. I've never been on Hum I don't know how I can explain this to

21 you. From Orucevica street from the place I was wounded at you can't see

22 the top of Hum from the house. But if you move to the side you can see

23 Hum.

24 Q. But location of the two as far as I can remember. I think you

25 pointed to behind the house, the area behind the house, and by the house

Page 13492

1 you can see the direction to Hum. Is that Hum?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. And you say you can only see how the Bulevar is entrenched in that

4 area. You can see that from your house, but you can't see the top of him

5 from your house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But up to the top of the house, yes, you can see that?

8 A. Well, I think that the house next to which I was standing can be

9 seen from Hum but you can't see it from the place I was wounded. It's not

10 possible to see it from the house. I can't be precise about that because

11 I never had a look.

12 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the

13 recording again? I don't know the number. Could we go back to the

14 360-degree photograph.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could we see

16 the 360-degree photograph again.

17 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. It's 9139. I'm very

18 helpfully reminding myself and passing that along.

19 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, this photograph shows the point at which you ran across

21 the road?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you run from the right to the left?

24 A. Towards the rock wall next to the red doors.

25 Q. Very well. If you were running towards the stone wall where were

Page 13493

1 you facing? Which part of you was facing upwards?

2 A. The right part of me.

3 Q. Can we continue to view the photograph. Stop.

4 To the left, can you see the slopes? Can you see the slopes?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What is that?

7 A. Behind the branches?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. That's a hill.

10 Q. Which hill?

11 A. I think it's the Fortica hill.

12 Q. Is that Fortica on Hum?

13 A. No. Hum is behind this photograph.

14 Q. Fortica is the front part in the direction of Mahala?

15 A. No. It's across the river.

16 Q. Very well. Across the river. Let's move on. Can we continue to

17 view the photograph. Stop.

18 The rocky part up there, what is it?

19 A. Hum.

20 Q. Judging by the height, this was photographed from a distance of

21 about 50 metres. What's the name of the street?

22 A. It's the high -- the main road.

23 Q. But it's Hum?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It's behind the building from which you started to run?

Page 13494

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you told us when marking the other photograph, you said that

3 you could see Hum behind the area.

4 A. Well, I marked the second time I was wounded in the arm.

5 Q. Let's continue to view the photograph. So we can conclude that

6 Orucevica street can be seen from Hum and, as you yourself said, from

7 Stotina?

8 A. And from Fortica.

9 Q. And from Fortica. I asked that for a good reason.

10 Stop. Could you please zoom in. Can we zoom in a little more if

11 possible?

12 You said that this is the house to the left from which fire was

13 opened on you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you now mark it and point to it?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you should have a marker.

17 Mark the house from which you were shot at on the photograph.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Excuse me, Mr. President. This is in Sanction, and

19 if the witness marks on the screen it won't show up. It will simply

20 destroy the screen. I do have a hard copy.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I thought Mr. Mundis

22 had the means of doing everything. Apparently that's not the case.

23 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Could you mark that house.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 13495

1 Q. You've marked it with number 1. Put your initials down.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you put your initials on

3 the photograph.

4 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could we have

6 an IC number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC number 337.

8 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, just one question of Fortica. When you were running, was

10 Fortica to your left?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who was on Fortica, do you know?

13 A. I think the Serbs were there.

14 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no

15 further questions. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Mr. Ibrisimovic, any questions?

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. All the Defence

21 teams have taken the floor. We haven't forgotten anyone.

22 Mr. Mundis, any additional questions?

23 MR. MUNDIS: Just a couple of questions arising from the

24 cross-examination. If I could be -- if I could have the witness be shown

25 IC 00331, please.

Page 13496

1 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

2 Q. Mr. Katica, you were shown some photographs. On these

3 photographs, first of all, could you point to where the wound entered your

4 body, please?

5 A. On the left-hand photograph.

6 Q. Could you please take the marker on the hard copy and draw the

7 number 1 on the location where the bullet entered your body.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Now, the photograph on the right-hand side, what does that show,

10 please?

11 A. The exit wound.

12 Q. Can you please mark that with a number 2.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katica.

15 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if we can be absolutely clear

17 that that is -- because it's just an observation but that is, I had

18 assumed, and I hope there isn't any doubt about it but on the very

19 left-hand edge of this picture is that gentleman's naval. I apprehend

20 that there wouldn't be any doubt in Your Honours' minutes about that.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps we can do as we did with the witness last

22 week. If this witness could simply stand up and point on his body where

23 the bullet came in and where the bullet came out that might clarify this

24 matter for once and for all.

25 Q. Sir, if you could just stand up and, first of all, please point to

Page 13497

1 the location on your body where the bullet entered your body.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. And is that where the bullet exited your body? Sorry. And where

4 the bullet exited your body.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

7 MR. MUNDIS: If we could get captures of that from the AV booth,

8 please.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. We're going to

11 have a number but I have a question to ask. We saw the entry wound and

12 the exit wound. You showed them to us. On -- according to what you know,

13 did the bullet pass through your stomach or not?

14 A. Yes, it did.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. Witness, just to be clear, how do you know

16 which one was the entry wound and which one was the exit wound?

17 A. The exit wounds, I suppose, are larger than the entry wounds.

18 That's what they told me in the hospital as well.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, a number,

21 please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 338.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That completes your testimony,

24 Witness. I would like to thank you on behalf of my colleagues for having

25 come to give testimony and to further the cause of justice. I'm now going

Page 13498

1 to ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn to the representatives of

5 the Prosecution, representatives in plural. Who is the next witness, and

6 who is going to take him?

7 MR. SCOTT: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and to everyone in the

8 courtroom. The next witness is Mr. Klaric, and I will be taking the

9 witness, please.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, in order to save

11 time, with all due respect, as far as the statement signed by the witness

12 and so on, whether there were any alterations, corrections, and so on,

13 perhaps you could synthesise all that and ask it in one sentence so that

14 the witness can answer yes or no rather than saying, did you sign the

15 English version and then the answer is yes, and does it correspond to, et

16 cetera, yes, and so on. Perhaps you could put that all in one sentence

17 and have one answer from the witness.

18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try to be as efficient

19 as possible. I can't say -- perhaps I'm doing a disservice to myself but

20 I'm not sure that I can do that on my feet and cover all that in one

21 question but I'll try to take it as efficiently as I can.

22 Your Honour, I might just note before the Witness -- the witness

23 comes in, there's been a lot of questions last week in particular -- and

24 shown on previous occasions as well about the --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Try, try.

Page 13499

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes. What I was saying, Your Honour, is there's

2 been questions about the location of the confrontation line in Mostar.

3 I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is

4 something --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, not all of it in one

6 sentence, just with respect to the statement, whether the statement was

7 signed, whether there corresponds to the version, et cetera, et cetera.

8 That's what I men.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I didn't think you meant the

10 entire direct examination in one sentence, and I know I'm not that

11 effective.

12 Your Honour, if I might just before the witness comes --

13 Your Honour, if it might be helpful what I was going to say is the bundle

14 of materials that has been circulated distributed in courtroom today among

15 those is a map of Mostar that we have been frequently using in this case.

16 What has been added to this particular map it's in the bundle and it is

17 photograph for the record 060347 and I'm ask for a number to be given to

18 it for the record purposes. It may have already been. If I may have the

19 assistance of my case manager.

20 [The witness enters court]

21 MR. SCOTT: While she's looking for that, Your Honour, I don't

22 think there's any real dispute as to the location of the confrontation

23 line in Mostar during -- during most of 1993 after the fighting on the 9th

24 of May. The line remained relatively static in most situations. I'm not

25 suggesting that there might not have been a movement of a few metres on

Page 13500

1 any given day, but what we've done on this chart is add an orange line,

2 you will see, just basically moving from -- I'll just describe it moving

3 from left to right, including this strip -- well, let me back up and say I

4 think the Chamber always knows and again I don't think it's disputed that

5 the ABiH was able during this period to hold on to a small strip of land

6 on the west side of the river. That strip of land continues from --

7 starting in Donja Mahala on the left side of the photograph, running along

8 the street the Bulevar, through and into the main part of Mostar, through

9 Spanish Square, zigzagging around beyond Spanish Square down to Santici

10 Street. There is less certainty as to exactly where the line went from

11 there this could be an area of some dispute or there could be an area

12 where there was some movement of the line from time to time. And then

13 continuing down to the river along -- across from the bridge there on the

14 map and then continuing along the edge of the river.

15 Now, I hope perhaps this is one -- unfortunately a few areas in

16 the case where there might be some agreement between all the parties, if

17 not, again, I'm sure I'll be corrected, but the Prosecution would say this

18 is an accurate description and not particularly disputed but it may assist

19 the Chamber.

20 In my recollection of the various maps and photographs, for

21 example that Mr. Praljak marked last week, it would seem to me that this

22 line is generally consistent with the lines that various witnesses were

23 putting on the maps and photographs presented by Mr. Praljak. I don't

24 want to take too much more time on it now but I thought it would assist

25 the Chamber.

Page 13501

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you seem to be a

2 specialist. The Prosecution has a map where in orange it marks the

3 separation line. We can see that it follows the line of the Bulevar, then

4 goes across Santic Street and seems to run along the Neretva River. Do

5 you agree with the route?

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The map is true and correct,

9 although it follows on towards the north and south, but, yes, there was

10 this interrupted line, dotted line along Santic Street, and this is

11 correct. I agree with that.

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but with

13 your permission I'd just like to say a few words. I think it would be

14 important to emphasise that the division is the same of the area of

15 control before the 9th of May, 1993, in order to avoid thinking that it

16 was only after the 9th of May and the fighting that took place on that day

17 that the area of responsibility was established as recorded on this map.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 Mr. Scott, is this before the 9th of May or after the 9th of May.

20 MR. SCOTT: To be perfectly transparent, I hadn't considered that

21 aspect and it wasn't the point to get into a debate on the dates. I

22 thought it was helpful to indicate that this was, I think, from a rough --

23 at least, if not before from the 9th of May forward through 1993 the

24 relatively static position of the line. Without doing any further

25 review of the evidence -- I don't mean to quibble with counsel, but I'm

Page 13502

1 not prepared to say that the line was exactly this prior to the 9th of

2 May.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak -- or Mr. Petkovic

4 for that matter. The line, was that before or after the 9th of May?

5 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like

6 to P 01978 of the 19th of April which is quite obviously before the 9th of

7 May, and in point 1, 2, the points are defined and we say that they are as

8 shown. So this was done on the 19th of April, and the Prosecution has P

9 01978, the document that was already shown in court, and in point 1, 2 it

10 says how the line lies, how it stretches along that area, as controlling

11 the area. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll check that out

13 looking at document P 01978.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, would you please stand

17 because you have to take the solemn declaration, but before you do so give

18 us your name and date of birth, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Munib Klaric, born on the

20 20th of June, 1944.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a current

22 occupation?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in Energopetrol, the company

24 in Mostar.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what are you there? What --

Page 13503

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a warehouse worker or clerk.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, have you ever testified in

3 a court of law, national or international, about the events that took

4 police in your country in the 1990s or is this the first time you're

5 testifying.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I am

7 coming to court.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you now read the solemn

9 declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You may be

13 seated.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just some information from me to

16 start off with. You're going to answer questions first put to you by the

17 Prosecution. Then you will be answering questions put to you by the

18 Defence, and the Defence will have a total time of one hour. But I

19 sincerely hope that the Defence will get through it in a much shorter

20 space of time.

21 Sir, if at any time during these proceedings you have any

22 difficulties whatsoever, healthwise or any other kind, please don't

23 hesitate to let us know and we will take a break.

24 Having said that, you have the floor Mr. Scott.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. I am a

Page 13504

1 diabetic. I do not have a right kidney, and I have a sick liver. So I

2 might have to go to the toilet more often. I might have to ask to be

3 excused.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. If you're feeling ill,

5 please let me know straight away.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I might, before we continue with the

8 witness, just so we don't get too far away from it, I'm informed by the

9 case manager that the exhibit number concerning the Mostar map with the

10 orange confrontation line marked should be P 09891. Thank you.

11 And if I could have the ushers's assistance, please, to move as

12 quickly to have the bundle of documents put before the witness. Thank you

13 very much.

14 Your Honour, to provide the witness -- excuse me, the summary for

15 this witness, it's quite brief but I'll read it into the record.

16 On the 10th of October, 1993, at 1320 hours the witness went to

17 get water from the Neretva River when he was shot in the heel by a sniper.

18 This happened at the area called Podharemi in East Mostar. The witness

19 was hit by a single shot. He was wearing civilian clothes. He was taken

20 to the hospital and stayed there for six or seven days before he was

21 operated because the doctors did not have time to treat him before,

22 meaning that there were other higher priority patients. The witness

23 thinks that the shot came from Stotina.

24 And I might also indicate for everyone in the courtroom that this

25 relates to incident number 10 in the expert report.

Page 13505

1 Examination by Mr. Scott:

2 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. The bundle of exhibits that has been put in front of you,

5 Mr. Klaric, if you could find in that the very first exhibit which is

6 Exhibit P 09862.

7 A. 9862 you said.

8 Q. Yes. You will see in that exhibit, sir, two documents, one

9 English language version of a statement that you signed immediately

10 followed by the Bosnian language version of the same statement. As

11 corrected by the president, Mr. Klaric, I'm going to try to take this as

12 quickly as possible. I would like you to look, please, first of all at

13 the English translation of the document. Or either one is fine.

14 Is it correct, sir, that you gave an interview to representatives

15 of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 27th of June, 2001? If you look on

16 the first page I will think you will see the date of the interview, if you

17 need to. Do you see 27 June 2001?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, at the time that you were interviewed and you signed this

20 statement initially in the English language, did you tell the truth and

21 did you give your answers freely and voluntarily?

22 A. Everything I say, Your Honours, I say of my own free will. Nobody

23 forced me to say anything, and my approach was to tell the truth and

24 nothing but the truth at my own initiative.

25 Q. Sir, if you'll look at the last page of the English statement, can

Page 13506

1 you just confirm to us, please, that that contains your signature? Does

2 it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is it correct, sir, that at the time that you -- before you

5 signed the document this document had been read back to you in your own

6 language, you were satisfied with it, and it was at that time that you put

7 your signature on the document? Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Now, after you arrived in The Hague several days ago, Mr. Klaric,

10 you were also given an opportunity to review your statement in the Bosnian

11 language and, based on that review, can you tell the Judges is there any

12 -- are there any corrections or additions that you would like to make to

13 that statement?

14 A. The statement I made I stand by. I have no additions.

15 Q. And, sir, if I were to take you through your statement in detail

16 this afternoon and ask you questions related to all the information

17 contained in your statement, would -- would the information contained in

18 your statement be the answers that you would give to the Judges today?

19 A. Yes, they would be true and the same.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it correct, sir, that in October 1993 you were

21 living in the Tekija neighbourhood in East Mostar?

22 A. It is correct that I lived in Tekija and that that's where I live

23 today as well.

24 Q. Just so there isn't any confusion on this because initially there

25 may have been some for some of us, the location that you are going to

Page 13507

1 describe to us today, the location where you were shot on the 10th of

2 October, 1993, that location is not your home; is that correct?

3 A. No. That place is about 250 to 300 metres away from my home, and

4 the street is called Haremi Kusalo [phoen], and my home is across the road

5 from the tobacco factory in Marsal Tito Street, towards South Camp.

6 Q. Very well, sir. Now, can I ask you, your date of birth is 20 of

7 June, 1943?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And you were shot on the 10th of October, 1993?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So can we directly understand, sir, that at the time you were

12 shoot you were 50 years old?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you tell the Judges approximately what time of day it was

15 that you were shot? Was it -- well, let me ask you, was it 13.20 or 1.20

16 in the afternoon?

17 A. Yes, yes. Exactly at 1.20.

18 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think the statement describes some of

19 the additional background including the clear visibility, the nature of

20 the weather that day, and with the Court's permission I won't cover it

21 again. Of course, others in the courtroom may, if they wish.

22 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, what you were doing or had you

23 been doing about the time that you were shot?

24 A. As Mostar at that time was the only place that had water brought

25 in by water trucks, I went to Neretva to bring in some water and -- or,

Page 13508

1 rather, did not have water. I went down to the river to wash my clothes

2 and bring in water. It was a nice day. I went down to the river, and I

3 had a 50 litre canister and a smaller one of 20 litres and I went down

4 several times to fill the canister, the large one and the small one, with

5 water, and the last time that I went down to fetch water I was hit in my

6 leg, and it was an entry/exit wound, and I fell down by the steps where I

7 was supposed to come to that alleyway where there was shelter. And there

8 were people who were in the houses. When they heard the shot two brothers

9 came to my assistance and said, "Muna is -- has been wounded." And they

10 pulled me out into the alleyway into the street and I was transferred to

11 the institute of hygiene by a neighbour. I had to wait five more days to

12 be operated because the wounded were being brought in from the front

13 lines, so I was only operated on six days later. Is that sufficient?

14 Q. Mr. Klaric, you ever very efficiently given us the most important

15 information, I believe, in many respects. Thank you for that. Let me

16 just ask you one clarifying question if you could answer this ever so

17 briefly.

18 You had indicated in your -- first part of your answer that

19 because of the water situation in -- Mostar at the time was the only place

20 that had had water in brought by water trucks. You then went on to talk

21 about getting water from the river. Why did you not go and collect your

22 water from the water supply trucks?

23 A. It was a nice day, and the water trucks usually turned up in the

24 afternoon, so I used the afternoon to go to -- down to the Neretva River

25 at 13.20, since there wasn't any sniper shooting in town. Because we

Page 13509

1 lived in a part of town where there was shooting almost round the clock,

2 sniper shooting almost round the clock, and it would have been far better

3 that I hadn't gone down to the water because I wouldn't have been here

4 today, because it was sort of ill fated and what happened, happened.

5 Q. Let me just ask you because the Judges have heard other fairly

6 extensive evidence on this point, actually. Were you also aware at the

7 time that the water tanker truck itself was often the target of either

8 sniping or shelling?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. So you went -- you went down to this location near the

11 river and you said you were going down with a small container to bring

12 water back up to larger container; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Can I ask that the witness please be provided with a clean copy of

15 Exhibit P --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. There's a

17 question from the Bench.

18 JUDGE PRANDLER: Mr. Scott, I am sorry to interrupt you. I would

19 only like to clarify one question here. In the written statement prepared

20 by the witness, it was on page -- I believe it is page 1, that in the very

21 last paragraph he has stated that there was only one shot and one hit. "I

22 felt that I was hit in the heel." In the heel. Now, then, he made his

23 statement here orally, then he mentioned that, and I quote him, "I was hit

24 in my leg. I was hit in my leg." End of quotation. So I would like to

25 ask the witness what was the place where his leg or heel was hit, and if

Page 13510

1 he could show to us just in general way. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I show you? Is that enough?

3 JUDGE PRANDLER: Yes. Thank you very much.

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Judge Prandler.

5 If I could ask the usher's assistance to provide the witness with

6 a copy of -- a clean copy of the -- it's previously been marked as 95 -- P

7 09517.

8 Q. Sir, if could you please look at that map and orient yourself for

9 at that moment. Could I ask you to make two markings on the map. The

10 first marking -- please listen to my entire question before you begin

11 making any markings. I would first ask you to mark the location where

12 your house is on the map, if you can find it on the map, approximately.

13 A. Marsal Tito Street. That seems to be it.

14 Q. All right. You've just made a circle on the map. Can I ask you

15 please to make the circle you're marking just a bit boulder if you could,

16 please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And can I ask you to put a number 1 there.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Now, could you also please indicate the location where you were at

21 the time that you were shot in the heel?

22 A. You can't see the road here. Have you got another map?

23 Q. Not for current purposes, sir. If you say it's not on the map,

24 just tell us it's not on the map and we'll go forward.

25 A. Well, it should be somewhere in this area. This is Hasan Brkic

Page 13511

1 bridge, so around here Marsal Tito Street and then around here, you can't

2 see those little streets.

3 Q. All right. --

4 A. This is the third street.

5 Q. All right, if I could ask the usher to move the maps around so

6 everyone in the courtroom can see --

7 A. I can't hear you now. It's very weak.

8 Q. All right. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?

9 A. It's better now.

10 Q. And could I have -- ask the usher, please, again to move the map

11 towards you. I think it would be toward you, madam. And perhaps it's the

12 opposite. What we're trying to see is the very left-hand corner of the

13 map. And now up a bit, please. All right. Thank you very much.

14 A. This is Donja Mahala, and there's a new main road here. It should

15 be to the left. This is where Stotina should be.

16 Q. All right. You're getting a bit ahead of me. Can I ask you

17 please, the marking you made a moment ago before we were moving the map

18 around, you made a further map [sic] On photograph right -- or, excuse me,

19 left of the one you marked number 1?

20 A. Yes, go ahead.

21 Q. The second mark that you made, and I don't know, maybe that is a

22 2, but could you just confirm, did you put a 2 at that location then?

23 A. Yes, very well.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 A. You're welcome.

Page 13512

1 Q. Can I ask you, sir, before we continue on with some of these

2 events, aspects of this incident, in October 1993, at the time you were

3 shot, were you in the military? Were you in the ABiH?

4 A. I only had a work obligation, something within the civilian

5 protection. I had a work obligation. I wasn't an armija member. I

6 worked within an organisation. I had a work obligation in a company. I

7 didn't wear a uniform.

8 Q. Were you at any time in 1992, 1993, or 1994 a member of the army

9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Can you just tell the Judges what kind of clothes you were wearing

12 at the time you were shot?

13 A. A civilian uniform.

14 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, at the location where you were

15 shot as you've marked it at location number 2 on the map you just marked,

16 were there any military positions or installations in that vicinity at the

17 time?

18 A. No. No, never.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. Excuse me, please, Mr. Scott. I'm

20 sorry.

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, could you explain what a civil uniform

23 looks like? It sounds a bit contradictory because normally you have --

24 either we have you were wearing civil clothes or a uniform, but certainly

25 what you say makes sense. But could you help us to imagine what that

Page 13513

1 looked like?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a civilian's uniform.


4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A suit, a shirt, trousers. A

5 soldier or policeman, a guard has a uniform. I'm a civilian.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're welcome.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. So I came in a uniform to the

9 Tribunal and didn't even know it.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're in uniform.

11 MR. SCOTT: May I just -- before we get too far away from it, may

12 I ask that the map that has now been -- had the witness's markings on it

13 please be given an IC number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC 338.

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.


18 Q. Continuing on in terms of -- you described your clothing. You

19 indicated you were not in the military. Could you tell the Judges,

20 please, at the time you were shot around 1.20 in the afternoon on the 10th

21 of October, 1993, was there any -- was there any fighting or shooting

22 going on in that area at the time?

23 A. We'd go to get water when there was a lull. There wasn't a given

24 time when the sniper would fire. People had to go to work. They had to

25 carry out their work obligation, and the snipers opened fire that part of

Page 13514

1 town day and night because we didn't have a protected part to get from my

2 flat to the northern part of the house in the direction of Saric Harem and

3 towards Podem Harem [phoen]. That's part of Mejdan. And we had to go

4 through Mejdan from Zaharem [phoen] to reach the third part of the street

5 called Kusalova Street.

6 Q. Having all that in mind, sir, can I just ask you my question again

7 and try to give a specific answer as best you can. At the time you were

8 shot at the location you've indicated at approximately 1.20 in the

9 afternoon on the 10th of October, 1993, was there any actual fighting or

10 combat activity going on at that location, the location where you were

11 shot?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, Witness, you've already shown us very graphically your foot.

14 For the record, could we -- could I also ask that in the bundle of

15 photographs that we've been using with these witnesses, the bundle is P

16 09220, and it's photograph number 05016240, and I understand it's page 21

17 in e-court of that exhibit.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could we have

19 an IC number?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 339.

21 MR. SCOTT: If we -- if it's quicker, I can put a copy on the

22 ELMO. I believe it's page 21 of the e-court document. We don't have it.

23 Do the other people have it in the courtroom? I don't have it on my

24 screen. Now we do. Thank you very much.

25 Q. Sir, you showed us a few moments ago by removing your shoe and

Page 13515

1 sock the wound that you suffered, the remains of that wound. Do you see

2 that's depicted in this same photograph which is part of Exhibit P 09220

3 and has also been given the IC number 00339?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is that be what we might consider an entry wound on the back

6 of your heel? Just is it the entry -- does this show the entry wound on

7 the back of your heel?

8 A. There was an entry and exit wound to my heel, and the bullet

9 passed through from the right to the left, but when our military --

10 military conscripts were to leave the Heliodrom, I fell on my balcony and

11 I had a second operation.

12 Q. All right. I think --

13 A. To the right. It's here. And the first bullet inflicted an entry

14 and exit wound, and this is the second bullet I received when I fell on

15 the balcony. This was a sniper wound, and then I fell in the house.

16 There were two occasions.

17 Q. All right. Sir, I'm going to need you please before you -- before

18 you put your shoe and sock back on, I'm sorry, given what you've just told

19 us could you please once again -- perhaps if you could stand, please, if

20 you can keep your balance or we can get a good --

21 A. When I was wounded from Stotina, there was an entry and exit wound

22 to this part. The second time I was operated here as a result of having

23 fallen on the balcony. And here there was the entry and exit wound. The

24 tendon was wounded.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, since the witness has very helpfully

Page 13516

1 got his sock off, I wonder if we could very specifically see where the

2 exit wound is because it's been a bit general with references to "here"

3 without it being clear where "here" is. If he could simply put his finger

4 on the exit wound that would be most helpful.

5 MR. SCOTT: I don't think you can see. We're not going to be able

6 to get a camera on that particular --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want to come and have a

8 look?

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I can see the entry wound. That's

10 clearly what he's pointing to.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or I could come to you.

12 MR. STEWART: Well, I want to say it's not clear to me,

13 Your Honour. It's -- I -- I -- if everybody in court knows, I still don't

14 understand and see where the exit wound is. And that's all I'm asking,

15 please.

16 MR. SCOTT: I don't want the witness to get tangled up in his

17 headphones.

18 Q. But, sir --

19 MR. SCOTT: I wonder if the we might have the witness come around

20 to the front of the witness stand, perhaps with the usher's assistance.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

22 MR. SCOTT: With the video camera being what the --

23 Q. Now, now, sir, come back?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop, stop.

25 MR. STEWART: I didn't want to make it that personal an

Page 13517

1 invitation, Your Honour, but I'm flattered. He's behind the pillar from

2 Your Honour. That's -- thank you very much indeed. That's --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's the finest personal service I've

5 had since I arrived in this place. I appreciate it.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Scott, perhaps the witness would be invited

7 to show the whole arena from the centre, because I don't think if it's

8 quite correct if one counsel got a good look.

9 MR. STEWART: I think so, Your Honour.

10 MR. SCOTT: That's exactly what I intended but we got even more

11 help than what we asked for.

12 Q. Witness, what I would like you to do, please don't walk over to

13 counsel, I'm sure he enjoyed it very much, don't go over to counsel, but

14 with the usher's assistance please come in front of the witness stand.

15 Please guide him very specifically, madam. Come out right in front of the

16 witness stand. You'll have to leave your headphones. Leave his

17 headphones. He's going to need his headphones. I think will.

18 All right. Sir, we're improvising here and doing the best we can.

19 I think there's an extension but I think it will take more time in the

20 courtroom if we do it -- there we go.

21 All right. Sir, what I'm going to ask you too do now, please, is

22 once again please remove the shoe and sock of your left foot. I

23 apologise, sir. I know this is very inconvenient and ...

24 A. Not at all.

25 Q. If you could turn -- I'm sorry, Your Honour it's very difficulty

Page 13518

1 don't want to be offensive to the witness. If you turn and lean your

2 weight on the witness stand. Okay. Could I ask you please to lift a bit

3 your -- no, no, sir. Stand a little closer, please. Now, if I could ask

4 you, please, to move -- to raise your left foot a bit, just a bit.

5 MR. SCOTT: And, Your Honour, I'm sure the witness means no

6 disrespect to the Court from his current position.

7 Q. If it -- now, I don't know if -- can you lower your fit a bit,

8 sir. Can you lower did to the floor a bit. Stop, stop. Stop there.

9 Now, for everyone -- see -- is what we're seeing now in the back

10 of your heel, sir, is that the entry wound of the sniper bullet that you

11 received? Well, I think he knows. Hopefully he knows.

12 A. I'm not a medical orderly to be able to answer that question. My

13 foot was operated on twice, once because of the wound from Stotina and the

14 second time because I fell on the balcony, and the internal part or the

15 inside part of my foot was wounded. I'm not able to provide you with a

16 precise definition of what happened. I have shown you what happened.

17 Q. I appreciate that.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, there were two

19 operations. The first one was performed because of the entry and exit

20 wound and there was a second operation because he fell on the balcony. So

21 he had two operations to his foot, but we have all seen the wound. We

22 should now move on --

23 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- to another subject.

25 MR. SCOTT: If I could just ask, because there was a question from

Page 13519

1 counsel.

2 Q. And, sir, if I could ask you once again to raise your foot a bit

3 higher because there was a question of a scar or injury on the bottom of

4 your foot. If I could ask you to raise your foot again, please. Now,

5 stop there?

6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, can everyone in the courtroom see that

7 there is a circular scar on the bottom of his heel? Thank you.

8 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Thank you for your cooperation.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've spent an hour and 15

10 minutes on this matter so far.

11 MR. SCOTT: Well, I --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I'll put a question to you

13 because I want to go to the heart of the matter that concerns us. We saw

14 where you were wounded. We saw the Donja Mahala area, too.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Podharemi.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as you know, did

17 the ABiH have any soldiers in that area?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not a single soldier?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a single soldier.


22 Q. Sir, if I could ask you, on the map if you still have the map,

23 which you marked before, which was Exhibit -- or was given IC number

24 00338, now, my next question to you, sir, and then I'll ask you to

25 identify a marking, based on what you knew at the time, your knowledge of

Page 13520

1 the area and what happened to you, did you have an understanding or belief

2 as to where the shot came from that struck you on the 10th of October?

3 A. As someone who was born in Mostar, as an inhabitant of the Mahala,

4 well, I played football at Stotina. I would also swim in the Neretva

5 River, and I know that that shot couldn't have come from anywhere else,

6 only from that part of Stotina.

7 Q. All right. Sir, on that drawing, then, you made a map a few

8 minutes ago. On the -- excuse me. On the mark that you're now saying you

9 believe the shot came from Stotina, would you make a mark on the map using

10 number 3.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. Sir, it's correct, is it not, that in

13 2004 you were visited by an investigator and photographer from the

14 Tribunal who made a short video clip with you; is that correct? Is that

15 correct, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, at this time we'd like to play the video

18 clip Exhibit P 09140. If anyone cares to look at the brief very brief

19 transcript it's on page 5 of 7 of the transcript.

20 Q. If you can watch this video, sir, please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 "Investigator: Mr. Klaric, to the best of your recollection,

23 could you please indicate the location where you were shot?

24 "Witness: [Indicates]

25 "Investigator: Thank you. Mr. Klaric, to the best of your

Page 13521

1 recollection could you please assume the position you were in when you

2 were shot?

3 "Witness: [Indicates]

4 "Investigator: Thank you. Mr. Klaric, could you please point out

5 where the shot hit you?

6 "Witness: [Indicates]

7 "Investigator: Thank you."

8 MR. SCOTT: If we could run back through one -- to run part of it

9 again, please, just very quickly. I'll tell you when to stop, please.

10 [Videotape played]

11 "Investigator: Mr. Klaric, to the best of your recollection could

12 you please indicate the location where --"

13 MR. SCOTT: Actually, we can stop here.

14 Q. Sir, can I just ask you, after you were shot at the location you

15 pointed to just a minute ago in this clip, could you tell the Judges what

16 you did immediately after that? Did you seek cover? Did you try to move

17 in any particular location, and if you did can you show us on this

18 photograph as best you can the direction, location where you moved?

19 A. I crawled as far as this protected area, this sheltered area, the

20 small step you can see here. There's an arrow that you can see. I

21 reached this sheltered area and then two brothers of mine took me to the

22 hygiene institute, the institute of hygiene.

23 Q. All right. So that the record is clear, when you say up in the

24 sheltered area, are you talking -- would it object on the photograph -- if

25 everyone's looking at the photograph it would be to the left of where

Page 13522

1 you're standing now up to the step? Is that correct?

2 A. This part here to the right. The left side and this part. I

3 reached the sheltered area to make sure that the sniper wouldn't hit me a

4 second time. It wouldn't possible for him to hit me there any more.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. SCOTT: I think a different photograph, Your Honour, might

7 make it clear rather than take too much additional time with this.

8 Q. Sir, the next thing I would like to do, please, is show you what

9 we are calling in the courtroom a 360-degree photograph. You may recall

10 that at the time that after the video was taken a tripod was set up at the

11 location you indicated and then a circular photograph was made. What I'd

12 like to do, please, is first I just want you to look at the entire

13 photograph as we play it the first time. Then I will play it for you a

14 second time, but just the first time I want you to orient yourself,

15 please.

16 All right. We started approximately there. All right, sir, at

17 this time I'd like to do it again, and this next time that we do this can

18 you please be watching for the location of the place where you think that

19 the shot came from. Don't -- don't start yet. And then I'll just ask you

20 to tell us to stop.

21 A. Go back, go back, go back. More, more. It's somewhere here, a

22 bit further back. To the left.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. A little more. You can see a house here and a hill. Go further

25 to the left. Stop.

Page 13523

1 Q. Yes. Can -- now, hold on there for a moment, please. Hold on.

2 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. Just looking for ...

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] While you're look, we have some

4 questions.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, while the Prosecution is

6 looking for its document, I'd like to know the following: It's -- was

7 this house inhabited, the one in front of which you were wounded at the

8 time of the event?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And you didn't -- you weren't

11 afraid of -- of snipers? Didn't the owner of this house fear shots from

12 snipers when you went there to collect water? They didn't say anything

13 about being afraid?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only the owner but ought

15 inhabitants of Podharemi and Marsal Tito Street were all afraid every day,

16 and we expected someone to die every day. Not only the owner of the house

17 where this event took place, because the area I lived in, Tekija in

18 particular, well, that area was under fire, under sniper fire day and

19 night. My flat is on the left on the Neretva River across from the

20 tobacco factory. The water and food was transported through my flat

21 because it was the quite elevated and was the only protected part at the

22 time. Everywhere else from the -- one of the buildings to my building

23 there was an area that wasn't protected, and from the Kolonija area that

24 goes in the direction of Sokol, well, they passed through that

25 passageway -- rather, they opened fire. Snipers opened fire in that area.

Page 13524

1 Is that sufficient?

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You pointed to a house in the

4 photograph. We can see it clearly. Before you were wounded, had shots

5 already been fired from that house?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you that they opened

7 fire from that part of Stotina and from elsewhere not only on Tekija but

8 on the entire town. I served in the army in '66 and '67, so I didn't

9 really -- but I didn't really carry a rifle frequently so I don't know

10 much what the range of weapons is. I don't know if I could take a rifle

11 apart right now.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before -- the question was very

13 precise. Did the inhabitants in that area know that there was a -- a

14 sniper in the house?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there could have been a snipe

16 near any of the houses, not just in one of the houses. Not just in that

17 one. In Stotina there could have been a thousand and one snipers, not

18 just the one sniper who wounded me.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Mr. Scott, the photograph.

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes. If I could have the usher's assistance,

22 please.

23 Q. Sir, I'm going to show you now --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Scott.

25 MR. SCOTT: My apologies.

Page 13525

1 Q. I'm going to show you now a still photograph of roughly the place

2 you stopped us on the video, and what I'd like to do now is -- if you can

3 please take the marker. Please look carefully. Don't rush to make the

4 markings particularly quickly, but look at the photograph, please, and

5 then make a mark, draw a circle around the location where you believe the

6 shot came from that hit you.

7 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm going to object to this. There is

8 absolutely no foundation whatsoever to suggest that this witness can have

9 any knowledge about where the shot came from. It's obvious from his

10 testimony that he more or less had his back to where the shot came from,

11 and an attempt to say that it must have come from this building or that

12 building is -- is absolutely speculation in its purest form.

13 MR. SCOTT: Well, I can't agree, Your Honour, with that. I mean,

14 again the witness has given us his knowledge of the events and the

15 location at the time, what was known about the operations in this area,

16 and, with all respect, I think it goes to weight but it's no different

17 than the evidence given by a number of these witness, with all candour.

18 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, he just said in response to a question

19 from Your Honour that there could have been a sniper near any of the

20 houses, not just in one of the houses. He said that explicitly in a

21 question -- in response to a question from the Bench.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, Mr. Murphy is a hundred per cent right,

23 Your Honour, and we whole-heartedly support his objection.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Please continue,

25 Mr. Scott, and we'll see in due course.

Page 13526

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Perhaps for the record it is important to say

2 that the witness has not said he could have been shot at from any houses.

3 He said a sniper could have been in any of the houses. I think there's a

4 distinction.

5 MR. SCOTT: Precisely, Judge Trechsel, thank you.

6 MR. MURPHY: Perhaps that might be so, Your Honour, but

7 nonetheless Mr. Scott is to lay a foundation for -- when asking a witness

8 to give this kind of opinion. He's presumably going to use this as a

9 basis for asking his expert witness in a day or two to give us an opinion

10 as to where the shot came from a very specific location, and it's

11 important that the Trial Chamber understand there is absolutely no

12 foundation for in whatsoever.

13 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour I don't.

14 MR. STEWART: Excuse me.

15 MR. SCOTT: Can we.

16 MR. STEWART: If Mr. Scott allows me to associate myself with

17 Mr. Murphy's objection. Could we observe, Your Honour, this is a 92 ter

18 witness which the statement he has confirmed is important to look at and

19 the vagueness of -- it's the fourth but last paragraph in his statement he

20 uses the word "suppose," which entirely supports of what Mr. Murphy has

21 said. It is supposition, and it's not to the Prosecution to go so far

22 beyond a 92 ter statement without a foundation and add this specific

23 material. If they want to go under 92 ter they, within reason, should be

24 stuck with 92 ter.

25 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, that's completely -- that's --

Page 13527

1 Your Honour, that's completely unfair I'm afraid from Mr. Stewart. The

2 word "suppose" could be -- indicates "I believe," indicates that's an

3 English phrase, and I think he can suppose and indicate the photograph

4 where he supposes that the shot came from, knowing -- having grown up in

5 the area, having known where certain sniper locations were to be during

6 this time, from his own injury from where he was standing at the time --

7 located at the time from where he was shot from crawling out of the line

8 of fire up between the two building the witness can give his view just the

9 other two witnesses have given their view as to where he believes the shot

10 came from.

11 MR. STEWART: I suppose it comes in a whole sentence, Your Honour,

12 not just that word.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, the Judges will

14 deliberate and weigh up everything and come to a reasonable conclusion as

15 to where this sniper shot came from. But before the Judges can arrive at

16 a conclusion, we must have all the elements at hand. And that is the

17 object of the examination-in-chief and indeed the cross-examination as

18 well.

19 Now, Witness, you were hit in the heel. We saw that. In your

20 opinion, where did the shot come from?

21 A. Can you turn your back to where you know the shooting came from?

22 If you can, I'll give you the Nobel Peace Prize.

23 I was walking towards the house and the sniper hit me, so I know

24 where it came from. Now, you're the experts and you ought to know.

25 Judging by the wound, the shot came from Stotina. It hit me from Stotina

Page 13528

1 a had I known they would shoot at me I would have taken cover, but I had

2 my back turned towards that area. I was carrying a canister. How should

3 I know where the shooting came from? It's an assumption.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in Stotina there are a number

5 of houses, aren't there, a number of houses there? Did you think it came

6 from a specific house or you don't know?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be specific. I can just

8 assume, because each of those houses was a potential sniper place.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Your Honour, based -- based on --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Karnavas.

11 What -- it's clear he doesn't know where the shot came from.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: That's the whole point. I think here we're wasting

13 valuable time with a witness. Granted, he was hit. We don't know whether

14 it was a shooter, a sharpshooter, whether there was a ricochet, whether

15 this was somebody who was actually sniping at the gentleman. We do know

16 he was injured, and we apologise for having to bring him here for that

17 purpose. But other than that we are not advancing anywhere by this pure

18 speculative approach, and I don't think it's fair to the Defence given

19 that the Prosecution has the burden of proving their case at a standard of

20 proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and this is not proof beyond a reasonable

21 doubt. So I suggest that we thank the gentleman and send him about his

22 way.

23 MR. SCOTT: I disagree, Your Honour we're --

24 JUDGE PRANDLER: Mr. Scott, I'm sorry to interrupt you again, but

25 really I fear that we should make up our mind what we are going to ask

Page 13529

1 from the witness. We, as far as I know, at least the Bench doesn't want

2 to ask the witness exactly from which house the shot has come. We would

3 like to ask the witness, as he already stated before, from which direction

4 did the shot come, which direction. So therefore he already said several

5 times that the shot came from Stotina.

6 Now I would like to ask the witness if he could just show to us in

7 general that in his view from which -- which kind of buildings the shot

8 might have come. We do not ask you to say that it is exactly this or that

9 house. We are asking you to show the direction which in your view the

10 shot was fired. It is what I would like to ask you to do so.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll draw a circle round the

12 location of Stotina. Whether it was from a building or which part exactly

13 I can't say, but if you bring me a map, on the screen I will draw a circle

14 round the locality that we call Stotina. But what building specifically,

15 I can't say.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's have a photograph,

17 and could you draw a circle round the area you consider the shot came

18 from. Draw a large circle round the area.

19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

20 MR. SCOTT: Exactly, Your Honour, and I think it's been very

21 unfair to this witness not to have given him the opportunity some minutes

22 ago to answer that. That is exactly the markings that he has indicated to

23 the Prosecution before. The witness never indicated it was a particular

24 building. He said it was at Stotina up on this elevated area and that is

25 his testimony and I think the witness has been confused and interrupted

Page 13530

1 from being able to give the answer he just gave.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just tell the truth. So you can't

3 confuse me. I won't let myself be confused. Don't worry.

4 MR. SCOTT: I don't know if we have --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 341. I would

7 like to make a correction. Since the number IC 338 was given twice, on

8 page 53, line 21, it should be IC 340.

9 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, just so the record's clear, on page 80,

10 line 19 through 24, Mr. Scott directed a specific question to the witness

11 as to where the location that he believed the shot came from. So,

12 Your Honour, for him to represent that we are being unfair to the witness

13 is absolutely outrageous.

14 MR. SCOTT: That's exactly the question I put to the witness, and

15 the witness now answered after 15 or 20 minutes of arguing.

16 Q. Sir, if I can ask you to look, please, next at another photograph

17 that I'll show you.

18 MR. SCOTT: Put that on the ELMO, please.

19 Q. And if -- can you tell us, sir, what we're looking at now? Is

20 this looking up from the steps where you pointed out? In the short video

21 clip, you bent over and pointed to some steps. Are we now looking up into

22 the direction of where those steps go between the buildings?

23 A. This is called Gusav Soka [phoen], a small street. This is the

24 bottom of the steps emerging at Haremi, the lower part here. Below is the

25 plateau where I was standing towards the Neretva River. Is that

Page 13531

1 sufficient?

2 Q. Is that the area, sir when you said a few minutes ago that you

3 climbed then or crawled further up between those buildings, is this

4 showing the location where you crawled after being shot?

5 A. The lower part of the steps, that's where there was a bit of

6 shelter.

7 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask for an IC number for this photograph,

8 please.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 342.

11 MR. SCOTT: If I could have the usher's assistance to please put

12 00 -- IC 00341 back on the screen. Thank you. If we can go out and show

13 as much of the picture as possible, please. Thank you.

14 Q. Sir, if you can, using this photograph, when you came up from the

15 river, your last trip up from the river prior to the time you were shot,

16 we see on the right part of the photograph what looks like it could be a

17 sidewalk or some sort of a gravel path or open area. Now, with reference

18 to that, can you indicate approximately where you came up from the river

19 before you stepped onto that path?

20 A. There was a stone path and then a path with cement. So I came to

21 the very corner of the alleyway or path, and that's where the sniper hit

22 me, as I showed you on that first photograph.

23 Q. But before you got to the corner, as you came up to the river now,

24 could you put a marking on the picture, if you can, as to where you were

25 when you first came up from the river?

Page 13532

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Klaric.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm told by my case manager that we've

4 come up on the time. I think we're very, very close to being finished,

5 but -- well, I'm in the Court's hands. I can probably finish in two or

6 three minutes or we can take the break.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead and complete your

8 examination.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Sir, in the bundle of exhibits, if I could just ask you please to

11 look at -- if you can find P 06980, 6980.

12 A. 6980, you say.

13 Q. Please. If you have that, sir, I'm directing your attention to

14 the -- well, please look at the Bosnian language version of that document.

15 Can you just simply confirm, sir, is this a record from the Mostar war

16 hospital indicating the treatment of the wound that you've described to us

17 this afternoon when you were -- your sniper wound that you received on the

18 10th of October, 1993?

19 A. This document --

20 Q. I'm sorry. Sir, my -- I've directing you to the wrong number.

21 It's my fault. My apology to the courtroom.

22 If I can ask you please to look at 6316. I turned to the wrong

23 tab, sorry. 6313 -- 6316. My question to you is the same, sir. Could

24 you tell us if this is a record of the Mostar war hospital concerning the

25 sniper wound that you received on the 10th of October, 1993?

Page 13533

1 A. Yes, it is. That's right.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, the rest of the bundle contains a

4 number of ongoing medical records showing the continuing treatment of that

5 wound for some time. Unless it's disputed, I don't think it's necessary

6 to put those exhibits into evidence. And that concludes my examination.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's 10 to 6.00, or

9 almost, and we resume at 6.10.

10 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

11 --- Upon resuming at 6.10 p.m.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Theoretically we have 50 minutes

13 more. I implore the Defence to get through it by 7.00 in order to release

14 the witness of his obligations.

15 Mr. Karnavas, are you going to start off?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I wasn't going to, but I have no questions for the

17 gentleman. We wish to thank him for coming here to The Hague. We

18 apologise he had to come all this way just to tell us that you couldn't

19 locate from which direction the shots came from. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next counsel.

21 MR. MURPHY: We have no questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next counsel.

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak has a few questions,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

Page 13534

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good evening, Your Honours.

2 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

3 Q. Good evening, sir.

4 A. Good evening, sir.

5 Q. I don't have just a few questions. I have as many as I need to

6 ask within the time I have been allotted.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May I ask Madam Usher to

8 take some papers over there to the witness that I'd like to have placed on

9 the overhead projector in this order, please.

10 Q. Witness, Mr. Klaric, before we start looking at the documents

11 on your table, tell me the following, please, as to the best of your

12 knowledge: You're from Mostar. You know Mostar well. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, before the beginning of the war, just before the war when the

15 Yugoslav People's Army arrived and the reservists and so on, at that time

16 did many people try to procure weapons in one way or another because they

17 felt the war was coming on?

18 A. I don't know about that. I didn't know about that. May I make a

19 comment?

20 Q. No, you may not.

21 A. No. With respect to the arrival of the Jugo armada. I was at

22 work at the time, and you know where the south part of Mostar is, you know

23 that very well, Mostar number 4, the petrol station there, and Mr. General

24 Praljak, I was the first to be taken to Buna first. Us three Bosniaks

25 worked on the petrol pump. Three Serb, orthodox, worked on the left

Page 13535

1 petrol pump. Since my writing is not that good, my colleague Dragan

2 Maksimovic was inside and he wrote out bills and took in payment.

3 I felt the work of the engine and I felt that it was a diesel

4 engine, and I sent him to the petrol station for gasoline, and when I sent

5 him there he just came out and cocked an automatic rifle at me. And there

6 was a whole table with money. And the late Ali Podmeki [phoen], he was my

7 colleague, one of mine. The other colleague, Radim Mansuric [phoen],

8 works today still at number 2 with Asim, Asim Dzulejman, over there, that

9 way.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Witness. I'm sorry. Witness, I'm

11 sorry --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sure you have perhaps more very dramatic and

14 interesting and important stories to tell but here we are limited to where

15 you were shot in your foot, in your heel. So unfortunately we should --

16 you should not --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, sir.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's okay.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Klaric, I could listen to you for hours. I would be very

21 ready to listen to you, but unfortunately my time is very limited here.

22 So I have to clear up the situation with you. So please help me out to

23 the best of your ability.

24 A. Can I ask you a question? Just short. If I knew who that person

25 was who hit me in the heel, I would have a cup of that Mostar coffee of

Page 13536

1 ours with him, and I'd forgive him, but I would not forget. Now, you tell

2 me. That's all I wanted to say.

3 Q. We can go that far. I can't go that far.

4 A. I'm not going far. I'm just asking a question.

5 Q. Well, I don't know why I'm here questioning you about your injury,

6 but there you have it. That's what the situation is.

7 Now, do you know what an M-48 rifle is?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know that it does individual shots, shoots individual

10 shots? Do you know what a semi-automatic rifle, the so-called PAP, P-A-P

11 is?

12 A. No, I don't I've never had it in my hands. Quite right.

13 Q. Yes, I'll go slowly. Have you heard of an automatic rifle

14 produced by the Crvena Zastava factory?

15 A. All I know is the M-48 rifle that I had in my hands. Don't ask me

16 about anything else with respect to weapons. I know nothing else about

17 other types of weapons, not a pistol not a carbine, nothing else. I

18 wasn't interested in anything.

19 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, in light of the time

20 constraints and the nature of the witness, I suspect -- let me suggest,

21 Your Honour, I think we might get more -- be more productive for the

22 witness to go to the events on the 10th of October. He is the one that

23 started us talking about Yugoslav army in 1991, 1992, et cetera, et

24 cetera. Can we go straight to the sniping incident on the 10th of

25 October.

Page 13537

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Praljak if you go

2 through all types of weaponry with this witness, it might be interesting.

3 But apart from the M-48, he knows nothing else. So move on. We're going

4 to have a witness coming in to talk to us about things like that, so it

5 will be simple for you to ask the expert witness your questions. What

6 we're interested in is the wounding, who did the shooting, and from what

7 direction or from what locality.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Mr. Scott,

9 everybody who comes in here, all the witnesses who come into court here

10 say that a sniper shot. That is crystal clear. It's he a crystal clear

11 statement, after which the witness goes on to say that apart from an M-48

12 rifle he cannot differentiate between any other weapon. So my logical

13 question is, how does a sniper bullet sound when it is shot if compared to

14 any other individually shot bullet from an M-48 rifle, a .762 automatic

15 rifle, a Heckler rifle, an M-16 rifle, a semi-automatic rifle, the Heckler

16 from the USA. So how can somebody today here in the courtroom either

17 of -- on the part of an expert witness or a witness can differentiate an

18 individual shot from a sniper shot? Because we've been hearing for days

19 here that there were sniper fire, and all we know is that the gentleman

20 was hit in the way in which he was hit and wounded, and then I am being

21 questioned the right of asking how he can recognise a sniper shot. Just I

22 asked -- as I asked the doctor who was a witness what the difference is

23 between a sniper wound and -- very well.

24 Let's have sketch number one, please. Can we show the witness

25 sketch number one.

Page 13538

1 Q. Witness, this is a map that the Prosecution and we have agreed

2 represents the demarcation line between the ABiH and the HVO. You can see

3 Donja Mahala here. Above Donja Mahala in green you can see the Hum hill;

4 is that correct have a look. Have a look at what you were looking at.

5 A. I have to put a different pair of glasses on.

6 Q. Could you please place it on the ELMO so that everyone can see.

7 Place it on the ELMO.

8 A. So you're referring to this left part here.

9 Q. Yes, what you were pointing to, is that the Hum hill?

10 A. Mr. Praljak, for me as an inhabitant of Mostar, everything from

11 Stotina to the -- to what they call the Hrvoje cinema is Hum.

12 Q. Yes. Could you mark Hum there.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. That's right. Raise the image a bit. You can see the Hasan Brkic

15 bridge and to the left there should be Stotina.

16 A. Not to the left but to the right. Downstream, downstream.

17 Downstream is right, Mr. Praljak, my house is to the left from the tobacco

18 factory. You should look in the direction of the flow of the Neretva. Is

19 this how the Neretva flows? Donja Mahala is to the right. Hum is to the

20 right, and Brkic bridge and Tekija is to the left.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Klaric, place the map on the

22 ELMO.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: We won't get a good transcript if the speakers are

24 overlapping, and I think it's unfair to the language assistants who help

25 us so much every day, so if they could please slow down.

Page 13539

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Quite right.

2 Answer Mr. Praljak's question and give the interpreters sufficient

3 time to do their work.

4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Klaric, please mark the location of Stotina with an arrow.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And could you write down number 2 there. Put your initials on it

8 below and let's move on.

9 A. [Marks]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have an IC number.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Let's move on.

12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be IC number 343.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Let's move on and have a look at the next photograph, at the next

15 image. Could we turn it around so we have the Neretva in front of us.

16 That's right. This is the location at which you were wounded. The

17 Neretva is down below, and then vertical to the Neretva we have the street

18 towards Sakic Harem and we have houses to left and right. This is what

19 you indicated. Were you facing these steps, these stairs?

20 A. Yes, I was facing the stairs.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you mark the stairs with an arrow, and this is

22 the direction you were facing in?

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Right down number 1.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 13540

1 Q. The Neretva River flows towards the right. Isn't that correct?

2 Now, where is Stotina here? Where did the bullet that hit you come from?

3 Indicate the direction that the bullet came from.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. That's the Neretva, sir.

6 A. You said the direction. There is -- I just marked Stotina to the

7 right.

8 Q. Very well. But use an arrow to indicate the direction from which

9 the bullet came.

10 A. This is the direction that the Neretva flows in, and this is

11 Stotina. You won't confuse me, General.

12 Q. I'm not trying to. Let's have a look at the next image and could

13 we have an IC number for this document, please?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you put your initials on

15 the document and we'll have a number.

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 344.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

19 Q. That's a broad sketch. Please mark the location at which you were

20 standing when you were hit by the sniper.

21 A. With an arrow?

22 Q. With an X.

23 A. Very well.

24 Q. Mark it with a number 1.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 13541

1 Q. And indicate the direction from which the bullet that hit you came

2 in your opinion.

3 A. Which number?

4 Q. Two and an arrow.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. In your direction. The arrow -- the arrow must point in your

7 direction.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And please could you signed that?

10 A. [Marks]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 345.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we turn the photograph

14 around.

15 Q. Witness, in the lower right-hand corner, can we see the houses in

16 Stotina? I'm referring to the lower right-hand corner. The three house

17 we can see there, is it Stotina?

18 A. I can see Brkica bridge as a reference point.

19 Q. Please take your time to examine the image.

20 A. I can't see the bridge here.

21 Q. The bridge is here.

22 A. Where? I can't see it.

23 Q. Have a look at the Neretva and to the right you have a large

24 bridge.

25 A. Yes, that's the bridge.

Page 13542

1 Q. That's the Hasan Brkic bridge; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the houses near your hands, is that Stotina?

4 A. Yes. Those are the houses in the area of Stotina.

5 Q. Mark them.

6 A. The houses?

7 Q. Yes. Just the houses.

8 A. I had a good friend, Franjo, here.

9 Q. Mark that area with number 1.

10 A. Number 1.

11 Q. Have a look at the area near the Neretva River now, and mark the

12 location of your house -- or, rather, not your house but the site at which

13 you were hit. Next to the Neretva on the left bank there are two houses,

14 number 9 or 10 marks the spot.

15 A. Mr. Praljak, I can't see the streets here. I can't see what I

16 should encircle because of the bushes. I quite clearly pointed out

17 facilities in this photograph, but I can't find my bearings here. I can't

18 find my bearings here in these photographs.

19 Q. All right. Let's leave that. This was the photograph that was

20 made by an expert. I didn't take this photograph and that's why I thought

21 you would be able to use the photograph?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Klaric, roughly speaking,

23 would you be able to locate the area that you were wounded at in the

24 photograph? Approximately speaking, could you give us a rough

25 indication?

Page 13543

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I mark this?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes. Mark it with an X and

4 number 2.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mark the spot with an X and

6 number 2.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've marked it with an X.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you give

9 the witness a better pen.

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Very well. And your initials.

13 A. Yes. This is where I went to swim.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 346.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the registrar.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The next one, please.

18 Q. Are these the houses in Stotina that we saw a minute ago?

19 A. Mr. Praljak, I haven't been up there for 30 years. I can only

20 assume that this part here -- well, as a child I used to play ball there,

21 but now that I'm 64 I can't go 30 years back in time.

22 Q. Mr. Klaric --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If there's something you can't remember, just say so.

25 A. I don't know whether this is Stotina.

Page 13544

1 Q. Very well. Excellent. Let's move on then.

2 A. I can't recognise it from this.

3 Q. Let's move on. The next photograph, please. Do you recognise

4 this house in Stotina?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Very well. Let's move on. Let's have a look at the next one.

7 If you imagine Stotina, is this the view from Stotina, the view of

8 the Hasan Brkic bridge and the new buildings that were constructed there?

9 Is that correct?

10 A. I think it should be a little more to the right.

11 Q. This is one part of the area. In your opinion, was this

12 photograph taken from Stotina?

13 A. This is the crossroads where -- at Hasan Brkic that heads off in

14 the direction of the Stotina. So Stotina should be here, but you can't

15 see that location here. I know what I'm saying very well, Mr. Praljak.

16 This is a new road that heads in the direction of Sokol, and every day I

17 would go there and my bike. I'd cycle for 20 kilometres, but you can't

18 see Stotina here. I don't know whether this is the right document, the

19 right image.

20 Q. Very well. You don't know whether this other photograph was taken

21 from Stotina, the one we're looking at now?

22 A. I assume that this could have been photographed from Stotina.

23 Q. It could have been?

24 A. No. This is the park that heads in the direction of airport.

25 Q. Is this taken from Stotina?

Page 13545

1 A. It could have been taken from a plane.

2 Q. Have a look at the new photograph. Was this photograph taken from

3 Stotina?

4 A. Mr. Praljak, I don't know where it was taken from. I'm not a

5 photographer. You're showing me some photographs --

6 Q. I'm asking you --

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Very well. Let's move this photograph.

9 A. All the photographs you have shown to me, well, don't show them to

10 me. Show me what I have produced.

11 Q. Please, let's have another look at IC 342.

12 A. I'm not interested in these photographs.

13 Q. IC 342. And could we have the 360-degree photograph prepared.

14 So this is the street, and you said that you were facing these

15 steps when you were wounded; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you mark the direction you were facing with an arrow and

18 could you put your initials on the document. Let's have an arrow and your

19 initials and number 1.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And now could we have a look at the 360-degree photograph.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number, please.

23 The registrar has told me that this photograph already has the IC

24 number 342.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Do we have a photograph with

Page 13546

1 these arrows and with the witness's initials? That's what is particular

2 to this.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, in that case

4 let's have a new number for this photograph.

5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be then IC number 347.

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we please have the

7 360-degree photograph, the IC document that was a Prosecution document.

8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] The 360-degree document is

9 P 09139, if we may be of assistance.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. We'll have a look at that 360-degree photograph. Witness, I

12 wouldn't even think of saying that you weren't wounded, that you didn't

13 suffer much, but I'm just trying to establish something on the basis of

14 what you yourself have said, on the basis of what has been said here. I

15 want to establish whether the way in which you were wounded is the way in

16 which it has been described, because if you are facing the steps and

17 Stotina is 30 degrees from your axis, and if on the basis of the wounds

18 one can conclude that the entry and exit wound is at an angle of 60

19 degrees, well, then you, too, would have to ask yourself where the shot

20 was fired from since your wound is at an angle of 60 degrees whereas

21 Stotina is quite to the right of you down the Neretva. And this is why I

22 would like to have a look at the 360-degree photograph again. P 0 -- that

23 was the P number?

24 That's the question. Not whether you were wounded but from how

25 and from where.

Page 13547

1 A. General, I'm not a general like you are, so I can't know where the

2 but came from. All I know is that I was wounded. As to the angle, as to

3 where it came from, I don't know. My heel is the corpus delicti.

4 Q. That's why we're here so that we can assist each other to

5 establish the truth. No one puts your wounding into question, but we want

6 to establish how you were wounded. On the basis of where you were

7 standing we want to see where the bullet could have come from, the bullet

8 that wound you, and that's why I wanted to have a look at the 360-degree

9 photograph, P 09139.

10 What is surprising is that the Prosecution hasn't proceeded in

11 this manner.

12 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, we did proceed in it and it's

13 unfair to the witness to mischaracterise his testimony. He testified that

14 he came up the side of the river and he showed on this exact photograph,

15 that he turned on the path and had his back to Stotina. That's at page 81

16 and page 83 of the transcript. So it's completely unfair for Mr. Praljak

17 to characterise the evidence the way he wants to characterise it as

18 opposed to what the transcript says.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Microphone not activated]

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, even if he was

22 facing Stotina the entry and exit wound at 60 degrees should demonstrate

23 something here.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak has the right to ask

25 the witness to have a look at the 360-degree photograph and then he will

Page 13548

1 put his question to the witness.

2 MR. SCOTT: We have no control over it, Your Honour. But

3 apparently there is a technical problem. It's ready to play for us, and

4 so -- do we have it? Play it, I guess. Hit play and see what happens.

5 Your Honour, apparently it can't be played.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a problem.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] For the sake of the

8 transcript I would like to say that the photograph quite clearly shows

9 that behind Mr. Klaric's back one can see the Hum hill, and it's a lot

10 more likely that --

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Praljak is purely giving testimony. I'm sorry,

12 Your Honour, it's pure testimony by Mr. Praljak.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have heard what

14 General Praljak said. When we looked at the 360-degree photograph we saw

15 Stotina, but we also saw Hum on it. Now, could you perhaps have been shot

16 by a bullet coming from Hum hill? Would that have been possible?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, number one Judge, I

18 said a moment ago that I'm not a military expert. I have come here an as

19 a wounded man and shown you my opinion, given you my opinion as to where

20 the bullet could have come from.

21 Now, had it come from Hum, then my heel would have been blown away

22 altogether and I would not have an entry/exit wound from right to left. I

23 had an entry exit wound from right to left, if you were able to see that

24 properly on the photograph.

25 So there's no logic that it came as the general is saying, from

Page 13549

1 that area. It came from -- of course, now, I don't -- I'm not a military

2 man to know what the elevations are and so on.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. The bullet came from top to bottom, so I'm speaking at an angle of

5 50 to 60 degrees from top to bottom. Let's have a look at that again.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, in the meantime can you recall, can you

7 tell us whether when your heel was hit you had your foot fully on the

8 ground or lifted in a -- in a position which one assumes when one walks?

9 Do you remember that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time I had fallen

11 from the shot. I fell down and I was own the ground, and then I crawled

12 to the second step to take shelter.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I did not put the question properly. The moment

14 when the bullet hit you, was your foot on the ground with the heel or was

15 the heel elevated? Maybe you do not remember. Then just say so.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't decide. I

17 can't say. I really can't say with any certainty, so I don't want to say

18 anything I'm not very certain of.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Klaric, you were hit. Nobody is challenging that. Somebody

22 hit you in the heel. But look at this here. We have Stotina. Let's go

23 round now. Imagine the position of your body and the position of your leg

24 and the entry/exit wound. Look at the 360-degree photograph. Let's

25 rotate the photograph, and look and see where it is most probable where

Page 13550

1 the bullet came from. We're going from Stotina to Hum. We can see Hum

2 and the buildings controlled by the BH army. This is Donja Mahala.

3 You'll agree that was under BH army control, was it not? We see Hum. Is

4 it true? Is that Hum?

5 Stop. Stop there.

6 So now you -- your back is turned towards this, because if you are

7 turned -- facing the Neretva then your back is facing this area here. You

8 are facing -- your back is turned to the Neretva River.

9 A. These are the buildings at Cekrk in Donja Mahala.

10 Q. Yes, that's right.

11 A. So I'm -- my back is turned towards those buildings. And behind

12 those buildings is Hum.

13 Q. Yes. Hum and Stotina.

14 A. Do you know how long Stotina's been there for? Do you know where

15 the catering establishment of Smajo was? Let me explain to you. You're

16 trying to trick me here. You're trying to catch me out with only tricks.

17 Smajo's cafe was a hundred metres that way and then Hum was the other

18 side. So I don't know what point we've reached.

19 Mr. Prlic, you don't have to whisper to Mr. Praljak. He's clever

20 enough himself to be able to ask the questions?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have taken the solemn

22 declaration to tell the truth and nothing but truth.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am telling the truth.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're showing yourself up

25 because you seem to be a bit upset. Now, the Judges sitting in front of

Page 13551

1 you, the four Judges, we have to determine in a quasi-scientific method

2 where the shot came from. We know that you were facing the steps which

3 means that your back was turned towards what we see on the photograph now

4 when it's being rotated.

5 Now, as the Judges, as professional Judges up here on the Bench, I

6 cannot exclude that the shot could have come either from the buildings

7 that we can see in front of us or from the hill. So we have to know

8 ultimately on the basis of all the elements you give us where the shot

9 could have come from.

10 Do you understand that, Witness?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There we have it then. Now, in

13 order to facilitate our task, the Prosecutor asked you questions. You

14 asked -- answered those questions, and the accused has the right to answer

15 [as interpreted] you questions, too, and you have to answer them. And

16 then afterwards the Judges will gather together and confer and deliberate

17 and reach a conclusion as to where the shot came from.

18 Having said that, Mr. Praljak, please continue.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] On the photograph we're

20 looking at now, can we state that the witness said that his back was

21 turned towards this building and this hill that we call Hum hill? Is that

22 possible?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's nothing on the screen, no

24 picture on my screen.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You haven't got a photograph up

Page 13552

1 on your screen?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, would you go and

4 have a look, because there doesn't seem to be a photograph on the

5 witness's screen.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just come on.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Let me repeat my question. Is it correct, and you've already told

9 us this in response to a question from Judge Antonetti, that your back was

10 facing this building and this hill when you were hit up by the steps. Is

11 that what you said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we record this in some

15 way? Can we mark this in some way?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I make a comment? These are

17 buildings in Donja Mahala.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Yes, they are buildings in Donja Mahala.

20 A. So they're not at Stotina.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers refrain from overlapping,

22 please. It is impossible to translate in this way.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] May we have an IC number for the

24 photograph.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 348.

Page 13553

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And my last question: Witness, Mr. Klaric, do you know that at

3 the time you were wounded, behind these buildings we see here was the BH

4 army line facing the positions of the Croatian Defence Council that were

5 up in the hill? Do you know about that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You don't. Then I have no further questions.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just ask the

10 witness one question, please?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, if it is useful and

12 relevant, and if it follows along from the guess that Mr. Praljak asked.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. That is why I wish to

14 ask it.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

16 Q. The witness is being heard under Rule 94 bis or, rather, ter, I

17 apologise. 94 ter, and we have his statement here.

18 Good afternoon, sir or, rather, good evening. You confirmed today

19 that on the 20th of June -- no. On the 27th of June, 2001, you gave a

20 statement to the OTP; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On page 3 of that statement we have the following sentence where

23 you say, and you confirmed that today: "I know that there were sniper

24 positions on the elevation point called Stotina and on the hill called

25 Hum. Stotina is closer than hill -- than Hum hill, and from Stotina the

Page 13554

1 snipers could easily see me, and I suppose," and I'd like to underline the

2 word "suppose," "that this shot came from Stotina."

3 Now, my question is the following: Did you make that statement?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that everything you told us today about

6 Stotina is just your assumption?

7 A. How do you mean my assumption? What do you mean my assumption?

8 Explain. I don't know what you mean by this term "assumption."

9 Q. You don't know the word "assumption"?

10 A. I apologise. I do know what the word means.

11 Q. I am conducting the cross-examination. You can either answer or

12 not, but I am doing the questioning, and what I'm asking you is this: Do

13 you consider, do you think that the shot hit you from Stotina?

14 A. Yes, I do think that.

15 Q. Do you believe that or are you 100 per cent certain of that?

16 A. I can only guess.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. Good-bye.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Next counsel.

20 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:

22 Q. Witness, Mr. Klaric, just very conveniently the picture up on the

23 screen is what I want to ask you about. Do you see that? Can we be

24 clear? When you went to fetch water from the river you went straight down

25 those concrete steps that we see in front us. So you went to the left of

Page 13555

1 that yellow object, straight down to the river, did you?

2 A. To tell you the honest truth, I really don't know.

3 Q. Well, you've given us a lot of -- of quite specific information,

4 and you've given a lot of information about what went on, so you're

5 actually saying -- if that is the position, you're actually saying that

6 the one thing you do not remember is at what point down by the river bank

7 you were going to fetch water? Is that your evidence?

8 A. The part where I went to fetch the water is called Kusalova

9 Sokak.

10 Q. But looking straight down from the left of that yellow object and

11 down what appear to be steps, did you fetch your water from straight ahead

12 or to the right as we're looking at it or to the left as we're looking at

13 it. At what point on the river bank is what I'm asking?

14 A. Can I ask you a question?

15 Q. Answer mine, please, unless it's --

16 A. I can't see the steps here, the steps I went down to the left to

17 get down to the water. I can't see those steps on this photograph.

18 Q. All right. Let's -- I'm going to have to ask for the 360 degree

19 picture. Is there any technical difficulty with that now? I think not.

20 I don't mind which way. I'd prefer to go the other way. Thank you very

21 much.

22 Now, can you just stop when you see the points where you got water

23 from the bank?

24 A. Stop.

25 Q. And so identify then, well, first of all by description then

Page 13556

1 where -- we've got a sort of -- it's like a small pylon isn't it, right --

2 almost in the middle of the picture do you see. The upright structure.

3 Where in relation to that did you fetch water from the bank?

4 A. In the direction of this building and then left where the steps

5 were. I went down to the left.

6 Q. You see, the reason I'm asking you this, Witness, is that we

7 have -- you may not know all the details of this, but we have an expert

8 report and it has diagrams. It has details of this incident. You are

9 apparently one of the main sources if not the main source of information

10 about this incident, and what we have -- I can tell you, you can take it

11 from me, what we have on that diagram is we have shown a straight line

12 from the river where you got your water to the steps, and you're saying

13 that's not so, that you -- can I just get it clear, that you didn't go

14 from the bottom of the steps by the house? You did not go straight ahead

15 to the river to get water, is that what you're saying?

16 A. Your Honour, I think, and that is my conviction, that I went left

17 from the Sokak or path towards the Neretva. I can't say for sure because

18 it's been a long time since then.

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's got absolutely uncontroversial,

20 two tiny uncontroversial marks one of which is the witness's name. May I

21 ask for the diagram - it's page 29 of the expert's report - to be put to

22 the witness. I've got it here. I really do think the markings are

23 uncontroversial. If Mr. Scott is in doubt about it --

24 MR. SCOTT: Yes, I do. And before it's shown to the witness -- I

25 ask that it not be shown to the witness until I make my comments and make

Page 13557

1 my objection.

2 I think it's unfair to ask -- put this to the witness in this

3 way. If the witness -- if the expert is wrong, they can cross-examine the

4 expert on this. But they shouldn't show the expert's report and talk him

5 in -- essentially talk him into changing his position. Now, his testimony

6 has been clear; it's been clear all along, quite frankly. If anyone in

7 the court courtroom would like to go back to transcript page 81 and 83, he

8 quite indicated that he came up further down in this picture on this path

9 he had his back to Stotina. If anyone here thinks I'm making it up,

10 please look at page 81. He had his back to Stotina when he walked back up

11 from the river down here up this path toward the steps, where he turned up

12 into the steps. Now that's his testimony. It's been his testimony all

13 day, if you look at page 81.

14 MR. STEWART: First of all I'm cross-examining --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, with respect to

16 this matter we could spend 10 hours on it, because the expert report shows

17 that he is going from the Neretva towards the steps, and on the photograph

18 a moment ago we see that there was a detour.

19 Anyway, Witness, to the best of your recollections, can you tell

20 us whether you went to fetch water directly in front of the steps or did

21 you make a detour anywhere?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to the left.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you didn't go straight ahead.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

Page 13558

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, you've been on my feet for about six

2 minutes. A couple of minutes of which have been taken up which

3 objections. I'm actually only asking for two or three minutes, but I'm

4 asking to do my cross-examination professionally, in the way I propose to

5 do it, and there is nothing wrong with this these witnesses are brought as

6 the foundation for the expert report it is for the Defence, the Defence

7 are entitled to be clear, the relationship between this evidence and the

8 expert's evidence. We're entitled to find out in advance from the factual

9 witnesses whether what we see in the expert report is correct or not.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, I didn't say

11 anything contrary to that. Quite the opposite. The witness is going

12 along the lines of what you said. So proceed.

13 MR. STEWART: I'm much obliged, Your Honour I'm answering Mr.

14 Scott's objection. I appreciate that Your Honour may I have that page

15 shown to the witness then, please, on the ELMO as requested that's page 29

16 the usher has it.

17 Q. Now, just so that we're clear what it is, the river is of course

18 at the bottom of this diagram. That's the shade I had area marked Neretva

19 and then river in English. We see the steps at the top, and we see a

20 dotted line. It's -- "route of victim" is the English. You're getting

21 that in translation. A dotted line more or less a straight line it weaves

22 a tiny bit more a less a straight line from the river to the steps and the

23 point is that as that line goes up from the river toward the steps, those

24 flower-beds, the slightly scrubby flower-beds we've seen on the picture

25 are to the right. Now, what I want to be very clear about please because

Page 13559

1 you were there I'm asking you what I want to be clear about is that line

2 that is drawn by, or for the expert, there showing your route from the

3 river to the steps, is that right or wrong as a graphic description of

4 what happened?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 Q. I'll move on then. Before you got to the river you said that

7 snipers were constantly shooting during the day and night. "It was quiet

8 for half an hour and this is why I went to get some water from the river."

9 So what -- before that quiet spell, before that lull, how much shooting

10 was going on?

11 A. Judge, I was in the house, and I went to fetch water.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He's not the Judge. I'm the

13 Judge, so look at me.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I left the house

15 carrying a canister and a barrel on a wheelbarrow to fetch some water. I

16 don't know how much shooting the sniper is doing. There was shooting

17 during the day and during the night. Whether it was half an hour or hour,

18 I don't know, but they were shooting. I can't say how long they were

19 shooting for because they're looking for a target and then they shoot once

20 they've found one.


22 Q. Mr. Klaric, I'm going to pursue your own evidence. You are the

23 one who said in your statement and today that it was quiet for half an

24 hour. Now, if you're saying it was quiet for half an hour, it that

25 clearly implies that before that period of a half an hour it wasn't quiet.

Page 13560

1 So what I'm asking you is how far was it not quiet before that half an

2 hour lull? How much noise, how much shooting was going on before you

3 noticed that it had gone quiet for half an hour?

4 A. I left my home and went to the Neretva. I wasn't outside to know

5 whether the sniper was shooting or not I went to fetch water and it's

6 about 250 to 300 metres from my home to Neretva and I came back. I wasn't

7 outside for any lengths of time for me to know how much shooting there was

8 or whatever, but when I went to the Neretva it was calm until I was

9 wounded.

10 Q. You don't know when you hear shooting you have no idea whether

11 it's a sniper or not, have you? You keep saying sniper, but shooting is

12 shooting. You have no idea whether it comes from a sniper, have you?

13 A. I didn't hear the bullet hit me at all. I didn't hear the bullet

14 that hit me at all. I just felt the fall.

15 Q. Are you all right now? You can hear me all right now again, can

16 you?

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 Q. How long -- you made six or seven trips to the river you said.

19 How long in total were you at the river?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, we have to end

21 there.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this is a relevant question, and I've

23 had a very short time, Your Honour, a very, very short time. After a long

24 afternoon of examination-in-chief I've got about two more questions,

25 Your Honour that I should, with respect, be allowed to finish them.

Page 13561

1 Q. Witness, how long in total were you --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.


4 Q. -- at the river?

5 A. About 20 minutes.

6 Q. And how many people were around roughly on the bank?

7 A. I was alone and there were three children. Those three children

8 had gone out before me, and the last canister that I was supposed to take

9 is when the shot was heard. While I was carrying the water to my last

10 carrying of the canister there was no shooting. It was in the last

11 moments that the shot came.

12 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That was my last question.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Tomic, any questions?

14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic, how about you?

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] By some extraordinary chance,

18 does Mr. Scott have additional questions.

19 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, I'm sorry, if I could be very

20 brief.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Get through them quickly.

22 MR. SCOTT: If I could be handed -- if I could be handed IC 00341.

23 The problem is, Your Honour, unfortunately we don't really have one of

24 these exhibits floating around the courtroom, it becomes difficult to make

25 sure we've used the right exhibit. They're not marked. They don't have

Page 13562

1 numbers on them. Can I see it first, please, just because I have to --

2 Re-examination by Mr. Scott:

3 Q. Sir, please look at the ELMO and listen very, very carefully

4 because our time is limited and I want to do this as briefly as possible.

5 I showed you this photograph earlier when we made the markings on it that

6 you can see now. At the time I asked you about, I also asked you where

7 you came up from the river, and I don't know if you make your markings --

8 you made a marking down in the lower right corner. There's a line coming

9 across the path. Do you see the line?

10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, can I approach the ELMO in the interests

11 of time? May I go to the ELMO?

12 Q. Sir, I want to direct your attention to this point, the this point

13 on the line. Is it your testimony that that is the point where you came

14 onto the path having come up from the river that you came onto the path at

15 that location?

16 MR. STEWART: My recollection is that Mr. Scott asked the witness

17 where he came into the photograph earlier. I appreciate he may be asking

18 a slightly different question but he needs to be clear if the question is

19 different.

20 MR. SCOTT: I think the question is the same.

21 Q. Sir, can you answer my question? Is the top of that line crossing

22 the -- what loose like an open gravel area, is that where you came up from

23 the river? Sir? Apparently we're not -- are we getting translation?

24 A. Somewhere about there.

25 Q. Can I ask you, this is a still photograph. This is another still

Page 13563

1 photograph that we've just made from the 360 when Mr. Stewart was asking

2 questions. Can we put that on the ELMO.

3 Sir, if you look at this photograph which is basically the same

4 photograph Mr. Stewart showed you, I ask you to look at that and point out

5 as best you can the point at which you came onto that -- I'm going to say

6 the flat gravelly area, I don't want to characterise it any more than

7 that, can you tell approximately where on that photo you came onto that?

8 MR. SCOTT: Well, I mean, it's not in the trees, Your Honour. He

9 said he came up to the path.

10 Q. So I'm asking where you came onto the path.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And is that approximately in front of -- to the right of this part

13 of the building that juts -- can you see this building, part of the

14 building here?

15 MR. SCOTT: This is exactly what Mr. Praljak does, Your Honour, so

16 I'm going to do exactly the same thing.

17 Q. You see this here? You see this area here?

18 MR. SCOTT: I'm having him show it in the interests of time. If

19 you want to take another half hour we'll do it that way.

20 Let me go on to my next question. Sir, we can argue from the

21 diagrams where it was now that we have that marking because you see where

22 it is on the marking, where he comes onto the path. From the expert

23 diagram?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but perhaps we'll have a

25 number.

Page 13564

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes. It's the same -- I don't think --

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours.

3 MR. SCOTT: Go ahead.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need a number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 349.

6 MR. SCOTT: My final question, Your Honour.

7 Q. The photographs that we've seen of the area on the steps that you

8 crawled up in between the two buildings, can you tell the Judges how that

9 would have provided you any cover or protection if the shot had come from

10 directly across the river?

11 A. I was at the beginning of the steps when I was hit, and then I

12 crawled up a step or two to reach the sheltered area in the street, and

13 that's where the sniper identified me, the sniper or whatever it was. It

14 could have been a tank.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 Sir, this completes your testimony, and on behalf of my colleagues

17 I would like to thank you for having answered all the questions put to you

18 by the various parties, even if at time -- at times it seemed as if the

19 questions were very technical, but it was necessary to put you such

20 questions.

21 I wish you a safe trip home and all the best in your current

22 profession.

23 Tomorrow we will be sitting in the afternoon. We will resume our

24 hearings at 2.15. Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, too, and I wish you

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1 good health and a lot of happiness.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day

4 of February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.