Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14266

1 Monday, 19 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused enter court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have to sit down

7 straight away because we don't have much time.

8 Mr. Registrar. Would you call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

10 Case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12 I'd like to welcome all the people in the courtroom and our

13 witness who stayed over during the weekend. I'd like to say good

14 afternoon to the Prosecutor, the ladies and gentlemen of the Defence

15 counsel, the accused, and everybody else present in the courtroom here

16 today.

17 Without further ado, I'm going to give the floor to the registrar.

18 I think he has an IC number to give us.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The list of 1D documents tendered through Witness

20 A shall be given Exhibit number IC 424. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We're going to

22 continue the cross-examination of this witness. According to the

23 calculations, the Defence has 107 minutes left.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

25 Your Honours.

Page 14267


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

4 [Continued]

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. I'd like to continue

6 the topic of the old bridge that we were discussing. And you testified

7 and said that on the 8th of November the tank was targeted -- the bridge

8 was targeted with a tank; is that right?

9 A. Yes, General, sir.

10 Q. You said that there were about 60 shells fired?

11 A. Perhaps more; no less though.

12 Q. And there were four targetings, one after the other.

13 A. It depends on the combat fits of the tank.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down, please. It

15 is impossible to translate at this rate.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Do you know that during -- yes. I've been asked by the Judges to

18 slow down so as not to overlap, so let me finish my question before you

19 begin your answer.

20 Do you know that from the positions of the BH army, while the tank

21 was shooting at the old bridge anybody shot at the tank?

22 A. On the second day, yes, but not on the first day. The commander

23 of the 1st Battalion, Esad Kostic, who is still alive, shot on the 10th of

24 November in the morning at the tank from Kamenica bridge targeting the

25 tank from the left bank, but he missed by the height of the cupola. But

Page 14268

1 the man is alive and he lives 50 metres from Kamenica bridge today and you

2 can check that out with him.

3 Q. Witness --

4 A. That's not my name.

5 Q. Captain, once again let's go back -- or, rather, I'd like to ask

6 you --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down. It is

8 impossible to translate two people talking at the same time.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's 2.000 -- from Cekrk to the old

10 bridge, I've been walking around there for 25 years. I know the exact

11 distance to the half metre, and I can tell you exactly.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Captain, my question was this. It was very specific.

14 A. Go ahead General sir.

15 Q. On the 8th of November --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On the 8th of November did anyone from BH army positions fire at

18 the tank?

19 A. No they did not I would have fired but I did not have any

20 grenades, any shells. I guarantee with my head that nobody used any

21 shells and nobody shot, as far as I know, because all I saw was the barrel

22 of the tank from behind the house. I couldn't see anything else. Had I

23 put my head out I would have been shot.

24 Q. Please, Witness, I asked you for brief answers. I just asked you

25 one thing.

Page 14269

1 A. Well, I didn't see a single shell but if I had 20 shells I would

2 have attacked the tank and shot at it, but I didn't. I didn't have a

3 single one. I was on the right bank of the Neretva.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me. Excuse me, sir.

5 Your Honour, if the witness could be instructed to just wait and

6 not interrupt. Allow Mr. Praljak to ask the question, then pause, and

7 then answer so that --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: We want to get all of your answers, but we do

10 need -- and we're killing the translators.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is also true as far as

12 Mr. Praljak is concerned.

13 Please wait for the answer given by the witness before going

14 ahead.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, some of you are

16 asking me to speed up, like Mr. Praljak; others are asking me to slow

17 down. So what am I going to do? Am I going to slow down or speed up? Or

18 shall I take it at my rate and tell you what I saw in my own words?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, try and strike a balance

20 between fast and slow, a middle ground.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Praljak.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Do you know whether anybody, any commanders of your battalion or

24 your brigade or the command of the 4th Corps, did anybody tell UNPROFOR,

25 report to UNPROFOR that a tank was targeting the old bridge?

Page 14270

1 A. No, General, sir.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know that the operation to liberate the

3 eastern part of Mostar began on the morning of the 14th?

4 A. Yes. And I personally took part in that action.

5 Q. Do you know that I was in charge of that operation; I was in

6 command?

7 A. I don't know that, General, sir. I met Jasmin Jaganjac and your

8 other generals who were on the left bank and who left me, abandoned me in

9 Podvelezje.

10 Q. Do you know that I issued an order to protect the old bridge on

11 the night between the 15th and 16th of June, 1992?

12 A. Yes, General, sir. And I personally provided security with planks

13 and tyres. It wasn't the HVO; it was my battalion.

14 Q. Do you know that that was supposed to be done with 40 men, not

15 with tyres at the time but with planks and steel construction?

16 A. Yes, General, sir.

17 Q. You spoke about an English soldier who on the 9th of November

18 filmed the falling of the old bridge.

19 A. He wasn't an English soldier. He was a Scotsman or Irish. But I

20 can guarantee that he was either a Scotsman or Irishman.

21 Q. Do you know what time on the 9th of November he placed his camera

22 to film the falling of the old bridge?

23 A. No, General, sir.

24 Q. Do you know that after that, afterwards, he was transferred to

25 Sarajevo with an escort, security provided by the 4th Corps?

Page 14271

1 A. Yes, General, sir, and he disappeared that night.

2 Q. Do you know that he immediately boarded an UNPROFOR aircraft and

3 left Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. No, General, sir.

5 Q. Do you know that the cassette, the tape that he taped the toppling

6 of the old bridge he did not hand over to television Sarajevo but he took

7 it outside the country?

8 A. No, General, sir.

9 Q. So that rounds off the topic of the old bridge, and we'll move on

10 to another area.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And for that, may I have the

12 usher's assistance, please, and take this map to the witness.

13 Q. Captain, you said that you had four platoons in your company, the

14 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you said that you had four commands. On this map can you

17 indicate the positions of the commands of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd and 4th

18 platoon?

19 A. I'm sorry I don't have my glasses with me. The 1st Platoon was at

20 Cekrk. The 2nd platoon was at Gojka Vukovic's house in the Gojka Vukovic

21 local commune.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you leave the map and

23 indicate that to us.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st Platoon was at Cekrk.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

Page 14272

1 Q. Would you mark the spot and put a number 1 there, please.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. And mark the second position with a number 2. The 3rd platoon

4 with a number 3.

5 A. [Marks]. That's at Semovac.

6 Q. And number 4 for the fourth position.

7 A. The Ruza hotel.

8 Q. Tell me where your company's headquarters and command was.

9 A. In the Ruza hotel.

10 Q. Then put a number 5 there.

11 A. Here you are.

12 Q. Can you tell me where the command of your battalion was located?

13 A. We didn't have Bojnas, we had battalions.

14 Q. Very well, then. Where was that?

15 A. Across the Partizan cinema hall at Santic -- Aleksa Santic Street

16 number 5.

17 Q. Now, show us the position of the Kamenica bridge.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And put a number 6 there. You said there was another bridge which

20 was built, the Bunur bridge.

21 A. No, General, sir. There were four bridges. Four bridges existed,

22 two in Santiceva street, one in Cernica, and two in Donja Mahala. The

23 small bridge, Tito's bridge, and another bridge by Gojka Vukovica house,

24 so you got that mixed up, General. Which one do you want me to draw in

25 now.

Page 14273

1 Q. In Bunur.

2 A. That's in Cernica. I can't see it. It's not on this map. It's

3 not there. In Cernica, between Fejceva [phoen] and Cernica.

4 Q. I'll provide you with another map, then, and you can draw it in

5 that one.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you get my glass for me

7 please.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where are your glasses, sir?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're in that other room over

10 there.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go and fetch them then. Go on.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Would you place your initials on the first map, please, Witness,

14 your initials on that first map and then I'd like an IC number, please.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, an IC number for

16 map number one.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number IC 425.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the registrar, please.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Now my microphone doesn't

20 seem to be working. Something's happened to the microphone.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mark the four bridges on the other map.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, it seems that the

25 witness cannot hear Mr. Praljak.

Page 14274

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you hear me now?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can you hear me now?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 Q. On this map indicate the four bridges across the Neretva River

7 that were built after the bridges were destroyed in 1992, between the left

8 and right banks.

9 A. The first was the Kamenica bridge.

10 Q. Then put a number 1 there, please.

11 A. [Marks]. Here it is. It was born there. I bathed in the river

12 there. The second bridge was over here, and the third bridge was between

13 the Lucki bridge and Glozdane [phoen], over here at Riznice. The fourth

14 was between the hotel, the Bristol Hotel, and Tito's villa. It was built

15 by the army and we repaired it. They are four small bridges.

16 Q. Put a number 4 there then, please.

17 A. Here it is, number 4.

18 Q. Would you just tell us where the headquarters of your battalion

19 was?

20 A. It was Santiceva street, number 5.

21 Q. Mark that, please.

22 A. Here, by the Partizan cinema.

23 Q. You said that at least those two bridges were opened in March

24 1993; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 14275

1 Q. And you also said that Kamenica was destroyed on the 10th of

2 November, 1993.

3 A. Damaged, not destroyed. Your tank started targeting it again, but

4 you failed to hit it and then you used Maljutkas.

5 Q. And what about the Bunur bridge?

6 A. The Bunur bridge was destroyed, sir, when you brought in a convoy

7 of food, General, sir, when you started distributing the food you

8 destroyed the bridge.

9 Your Honour, Judge, between the 25th and 26th of August, 1993, at

10 2.00 a.m., Sanica Malavicnika [phoen], he's still alive, woke me up at

11 3.00 and said, "The bridges are gone." And that was when I was really --

12 that was the first time in my life I was afraid of the river Neretva.

13 So, General, sir, that's the truth of it, just as I am sitting

14 here. You can check that out. If it's not true, I won't leave here until

15 we finish the whole war.

16 Q. Very well.

17 A. Check. I won't be going anywhere.

18 Q. Calm down, sir.

19 A. You asked me and I answered. If my answer is not true, I'm here

20 to be held liable before the Court. I'm a principled man.

21 Q. Can we now place P 047285. Would you sign this map so we can get

22 an IC number for it.

23 A. On this white margin? This is where your tank was destroyed, the

24 one who fired on the first day, that 9th of May. It was hit by the red

25 arrow from Podvelezje. You asked me when it was first destroyed. All the

Page 14276

1 shells were collected.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the casings, Your Honour, you

3 can get them when the time comes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be IC 426, Your Honours.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This destroyed tank is to be seen on

7 this photograph. Behind this tower that killed five of my men after the

8 fall of Kamenica. This tower was made by Austria 120 years ago. It was

9 the best fortification for many miles around. You saw everything, just

10 didn't see Kamenica.

11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] You must warn the witness,

12 Your Honours. Obviously previous instructions were not sufficient.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please try to answer

14 exclusively the questions of Mr. Praljak. If the Judges find that

15 additional questions should be asked of you, we will ask them. You are

16 not here to continue the war, so please keep calm and answer Mr. Praljak's

17 questions.

18 Mr. Praljak, proceed.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] So P 04785. The Prosecution

20 attached this document to this witness's statement.

21 Could we move into private session for a second?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14277











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Page 14279

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

Page 14280

1 Q. 3D 00779, please, now, and then we can conclude. 3D 00779.

2 Document dated 8th October, 1993, that I signed, and in this order we

3 read: "Flights of aircraft are hereby forbidden unless authorised by the

4 commander of the Main Staff and unless they are used for medevacuations."

5 Is that written there?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the rest of the

8 answer.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you know if there were any flights after this date?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When did you notice any flights?

13 A. I don't know exactly, but I was in Hum when a tyre fell and

14 destroyed half of the Mahala. There was a BBC reporter there. It fell in

15 December. Don't ask me for an exact date. I'm not a 9-year-old child who

16 would exaggerate such a thing and make a mountain out of a molehill. I'm

17 not a child who claims that he had his bones broken when he was written by

18 a wasp. I don't know when it fell but I -- I forgot the date. They kept

19 falling until new year.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, you seem to be in a

21 verbal delirium. General Praljak is showing you a document of the 8th

22 October, 1993, whereby he bans flights, and he's asking you: After that

23 date, to the best of your knowledge, were there any flights by aircraft?

24 You are telling us that there was a tyre that caused damage and

25 destruction.

Page 14281

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But after that date, did you see

3 an agricultural plane flying over Mostar?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these operations always

5 took place after 10.00 p.m. Since Donja Mahala and Cekrk were known for

6 strong winds, you can't hear a thing. You -- the strongest winds blow

7 through Cekrk. You don't see these things until they fall and destroy

8 everything around. All the detonations were between 11.00 p.m. and 3.00

9 a.m. I didn't see or hear a thing because of the strong winds that were

10 blowing.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say that there were winds.

12 What we want to know is whether there were planes. Did you hear or see a

13 plane after the 8th of October?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honour, neither heard

15 nor seen because everything took place in the dark.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I'll move on to another topic now. 3D 00736, please. That is a

18 document that is already in evidence. It will soon be on the screen.

19 A. I'm sorry, but it's not there.

20 Q. 3D 00736 is the number. 3D 00736. Here it is. Do you know

21 Mr. Arif Pasalic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It's his order for attack issued on the 15th September, 1993, and

24 because this material is very complex I'll only ask you if you are aware

25 that an order for attack was issued at HVO lines on that day and whether

Page 14282

1 you know that several days after that a massive operation began against

2 the territories then controlled by the HVO?

3 A. Yes, General.

4 Q. At the end of this document -- can we see the last page, please?

5 It's a brigade order. It's -- it's an order by Semir Drljevic. Do you

6 know Mr. Semir Drljevic?

7 A. I know him very well.

8 Q. Last page, please.

9 A. His nickname was Lovac, "the hunter." He's one of the real

10 commanders.

11 Q. Can you look at the last page, the Croatian side? Do you see the

12 ABH stamp and the signature of Mr. Drljevic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, 3D 00740, please. 3D 00740. It's a combat order of the

15 command of the 4th Corps of the same date, 15th September, 1993.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you turn to the last page. Do you recognise the signature

18 of Mr. Arif Pasalic?

19 A. Yes, General.

20 Q. Now, I would kindly ask that the captain be shown this map that

21 was developed based on these two documents. Can I have the usher's

22 assistance, please.

23 Captain, this map was drawn based on these two documents. It's a

24 very precise map, and it depicts the attack of the BH army as it was

25 supposed to be from the north to the south. And since you were familiar

Page 14283

1 with the operation, could you please look at the map and tell me whether

2 you know that the map -- the plan of attack was indeed this, that this

3 attack was supposed to be implemented?

4 A. Yes, I know about the attack, but I have not seen the map. I can

5 only tell you where my area of responsibility in the attack was. I can

6 explain it to you, if you want to.

7 Q. Yes, please.

8 A. The south zone, the last one.

9 Q. Mark it with number 1.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Tell me, did you capture Hum hill at the time?

12 A. We did not, because I went to Visnjica. My mission was to capture

13 Austrian bunkers from which you fired at Donja Mahala with a silencer. I

14 can draw it for you. I should, because we didn't know about those

15 emplacements, about those nests.

16 Q. Mark with an arrow and number 2 the direction you took.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Would you sign the map, please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May we have an IC number for

21 the map, please.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 427, Your

24 Honours.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

Page 14284

1 Q. Witness, does the name Esad Sejtanic seem familiar?

2 A. Yes, General, sir.

3 Q. And do you know, Witness, that he wrote a book called

4 "Hercegovci: At the Doors of -- at the Flaming Doors of Bosnia"?

5 A. Yes, but I haven't read it.

6 Q. May we have the next exhibit, 3D 00749 placed on e-court, please?

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with the map I'm not sure whether the

8 number 2 the witness was adopting one of the arrows already marked on the

9 map. He was asked to mark an arrow. I must admit my eyes don't pick up

10 an arrow. I wonder if for future reference the witness could be invited

11 to mark more clearly, more specifically.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, General Praljak

13 mentioned the map and the operation that you waged. We see a green arrow

14 which curves towards the right. Now, you explained to us that you

15 attacked the Austrian bunkers where there were people who were shooting

16 there with rifles and silencers. Now, does the arrow correspond to the

17 route you took or is there another direction that you took towards the

18 Austrian bunker?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it does correspond to that,

20 Your Honour. We went from Donja Mahala up towards the hill. It wasn't a

21 straight line. It's says an elevation at an angle of 60 degrees.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Continue, Mr. Praljak. A number for the map, please.

24 [In English] Continue, Mr. Praljak.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D 00749 is the next number.

Page 14285

1 It is a book which has been translated. And I didn't supply a translation

2 last time, so we're coming back to that now.

3 Q. Captain, on page 180 of that book, it's the very next page --

4 A. May I have a number?

5 Q. Page 180. The next page. The page after this one. So turn the

6 page, please.

7 A. 779, did you say?

8 Q. No. 00749, 3D 00749. May we turn to the next page, please. May

9 we have the next page displayed, the top of it. It is page 180.

10 A. I've found it, 180 and 81.

11 Q. Take a look at the second paragraph on page 180, and we'll go

12 through this text very quickly. "The established defence lines facing the

13 Serb forces were not active in combat terms. However, there was a lot of

14 black marketeering going on along those same lines, and most of all black

15 marketeering in the sources that were lacking." Do you know about this

16 black marketeering?

17 A. I don't know. I wasn't in thieves or black marketeering or

18 anything like that.

19 Q. Okay. Now, on page 181 it says: "According to what the fighters

20 knew, that Sefer Halilovic with forces from Bosnia was in -- was located

21 in Jablanica. There was spontaneous singing, and the song is Bosnia is

22 being cleansed of the Ustashas under the leadership of so-and-so. Do you

23 know that song?

24 A. Oh, come on. What are you asking me about? I don't know any of

25 this. This is the first time that I have read this. We are the children

Page 14286

1 of Partizans, so don't ask me about songs like this. When I say I never

2 saw anything like this then believe me.

3 Q. Captain, in the next paragraph it says: "Within the frameworks

4 for preparations for planned operations, it -- the possibility was openly

5 raised of the Serb side helping us in a direct artillery support and in

6 providing us with the critical resources and materiel, and first and

7 foremost, selling a large number of artillery projectiles of different

8 calibres." And then in continuation it goes on to say: "I attended one

9 of the meetings up at the line facing the Serb forces in the village of

10 Busek, where Safet Orucevic, Fatima Leho, and Sefkija Dziho defined the

11 conditions under which the Serb side would assist our combat operations."

12 And so on and so forth. It says the Serb side agreed to provide a

13 howitzer with a -- fully manned with a crew. And then it goes on to say

14 on the next page that as for cooperation so far, Safet Orucevic told the

15 commander of the Nevesinje Brigade, Novica Pusic -- or, rather, he made

16 him a present of an almost new Golf car. Do you know anything about

17 that?

18 A. No, General, sir, but this is quite possible.

19 Q. All right. Fine.

20 A. I wasn't there, so I can't really say anything.

21 Q. Now, the next paragraph: "We all expected a great deal from the

22 agreement that had been reached, and perhaps this led us to be more

23 forward in planning our future combat operations, which objectively

24 speaking, given our force and strength and conditions in the area could

25 not give any significant results. But be things as it may, my unit," that

Page 14287

1 is to say Mr. Sejtanic's unit, "in cooperation with the 48th Mountain

2 Brigade was given the assignment of attacking key facilities in the HVO

3 defence, that is to say Hum hill." And underneath that it says: "In the

4 period between the 10th and 18th of September, intensive reconnaissance

5 work was carried out of the area of attack and features of attack," and it

6 goes on to say towards the end of page 182: "Once again in the course of

7 the 19th of September we analysed the tasks assigned us and looked into

8 the preparations that had been organised and became informed of combat

9 operations which were being implemented by the BH army along the axis of

10 Dreznica, Vrdi, and Goranci."

11 Do you know that that was so?

12 A. Yes, General, sir.

13 Q. And towards the end of that page it says: "During the night

14 without any problems at all, units were brought into the town of Mostar

15 from where in the early hours of the morning they were supposed to move

16 ahead to the features to be attacked. The units -- the unit that was to

17 attack Hum hill was led by my deputy, Tahir Turajlic."

18 This document -- well, let me ask you one more thing. The units

19 within the urban town had initial success along the Balinovac settlement

20 axis and had a lot of Serbian artillery support. Now, do you know about

21 this artillery support on that day?

22 A. No, General, I don't know about this, anything about this at

23 all.

24 Q. And may we now turn to page 184, please. Or, never mind. I think

25 I've exhausted the document.

Page 14288

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me carry on from

2 what General Praljak was asking you. He was reading excerpts from a

3 document, a book written by a BH army -- former BH army soldier, and he

4 referred to page 180, 81, and so on, and these pages seem to establish

5 that there was an agreement between the BH army and the Serb side and that

6 this agreement seemed to materialise on the day when you attacked Hum

7 hill.

8 Now, this is what we can read in paragraph 3, more specifically on

9 page 183, where it says that there was Serb artillery support.

10 Now, to the best your knowledge, did the Serbs in actual fact aid

11 and assist you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a company commander. I

13 wasn't -- I was only the in Donja Mahala, so I really can't say. I don't

14 know. I can't say yes, and I can't say no. But I was just the commander

15 of a small unit company at Cekrk. I can't tell you. I can't say yes or

16 no.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But to the best of your

18 recollections, when you attacked the hill, everybody knows in military

19 terms that when one attacks you must have artillery support. Now, when

20 you attacked, did the artillery come into play, or did you just storm the

21 Austrian bunkers without any artillery support?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Alone, sir. We didn't have a single

23 shell, a single grenade. My group at least.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, continue.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

Page 14289

1 Q. Captain, you know that platoons don't have any artillery.

2 A. I didn't have any artillery support. You have your witnesses.

3 You can ask them. All we had was hand grenades.

4 Q. On page 183, let us just note: "The results of the combat

5 operations against -- of the 4th Corps units were terrible. While they

6 were pulling out to their initial positions we had more than 30 dead and

7 about 100 wounded, heavily wounded or less seriously wounded, and combat

8 morale reached its lowest ebb."

9 A. This isn't -- none of this is true and correct. This man is mad.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I intervene? In

11 the answer, the complete answer of the witness wasn't recorded, and I

12 wrote this down. He said: "We went as sabotage men and just had hand

13 bombs." The Diverzanti or "sabotage group" was left out on lines 20 and

14 21.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, in your statement you said that that Donja Mahala was

17 destroyed by the Serbs 90 per cent and the HVO destroyed it 10 per cent?

18 A. Yes, General, sir.

19 Q. Do you know that in Mostar in 1992 -- the Urbicid of Mostar, 1992.

20 This was the title of a book that was published.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It was compiled jointed about by the Croatian -- by Croatian and

23 Bosnian intellectuals, town planners, architects, photographers, and so

24 on. Do you know about that?

25 A. Yes, General.

Page 14290

1 Q. Now, do you know, and may we have a page from the book displayed

2 on the overhead projector, please.

3 Take a look at Donja Mahala which has been photocopied from the

4 book. The red legend in the book says that it is the area of total

5 destruction. Do you agree that the red area was a zone of total

6 destruction?

7 A. What date?

8 Q. 1992, Captain.

9 A. That's not right. That's not correct. They were destroyed but

10 not as much as this. I don't know -- this isn't true for Donja Mahala.

11 It's true for Mostar but not for Donja Mahala. I don't know who wrote

12 this.

13 Q. May we take a look at some photographs. 3D 00784, for example.

14 3D 00784. Can we zoom in on that, please.

15 Is this a small street in Donja Mahala?

16 A. It's my alleyway, Cevin [phoen] Alley, and I know every house

17 there.

18 Q. Next document 3D 00784. 3D 00784, please. 3D 00784 is the

19 number. Ah, no. It seems to be 88. 0988, please. The next picture.

20 0988. The next photograph.

21 Do you recognise this in Donja Mahala?

22 A. Yes, General, sir. It is the mosque by my house.

23 Q. And now the next number, 0990. 0990.

24 A. Yes, General, sir.

25 Q. We're looking at the same photograph. We need the next

Page 14291

1 photograph, please.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recognise this?

4 A. This is Cekrk. It's right at the edge of the bridge.

5 Q. Was it completely destroyed?

6 A. No. This is -- compared to what it was like in 1993, well, no,

7 it's been repaired since then. I slept here, General.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, General Praljak has

9 shown you three photographs, and it seems -- he seems to want to show that

10 what we can see of Donja Mahala, and you yourself recognise the mosque and

11 the ruins of the building, on the basis of what Mr. Praljak is putting

12 forward, this apparently had been destroyed by the Serbs. Do you agree

13 with that or not, or was it destroyed by HVO shelling? What was your

14 point of view on that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was destroyed by

16 the Serbs. However, these are buildings on the outskirts. This is my

17 primary school. All the people were in there and refugees, too, and all

18 this was blown up with two shells. You can't see the photographs of the

19 area between Donja Mahala and the main road where one explosion destroys

20 five houses. These are large buildings, the 7th elementary school at

21 Cekrk and so on. One shell can destroy it on.

22 Now, had you seen what it looked like after the 19th, well,

23 Hiroshima cannot be compared. It looks better now. They dropped

24 everything on it except an atom bomb. We were spared an atom bomb.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The witness has testified to

Page 14292

1 these photographs, and we have a book which was published as a joint

2 effort.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General, had a -- the building been

4 destroyed like this, there wouldn't have been 1.000 refugees sleeping

5 there. I'm not a child. Don't show me things like this. I'll stay two

6 months if need be. And in this elementary school in 1993 there were 1.000

7 people accommodated there. There was a kitchen. There was a first aid

8 part and so on.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. This is a book called "Urbicid." It was jointly made by Croats

11 and Muslims in 1992.

12 A. I'm not interested at all.

13 Q. I just want to review one more document. Regarding the number

14 residents by local commune made in March. Document 3D 00780. In March

15 1993, on the 11th of March, there was a census in Mostar, and there is a

16 breakdown by local commune. It's a two-page document. Can we look at

17 table number 2, Captain. Second column.

18 A. Donja Mahala.

19 Q. Right. There were 2.042 people, seven one hundred twelve [as

20 interpreted] households, 101 men -- sorry, 1.001 men, 1.041 women, 517

21 refugees, local residents 1.024, 500-something Croats, and 682 Muslims.

22 Do you agree with these numbers?

23 A. No, I don't. You did not list everything. You didn't list much,

24 in fact. This is not true, General. Somebody wrote it to suit their

25 ends. I, as company commander, say publicly that this is a lie. This is

Page 14293

1 maybe a preparation for something else. Why isn't this document signed?

2 I would have -- I would bite his head off now. Why isn't it signed? I

3 can guarantee, I can vouch that this is not right.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to repeat that

5 this Witness needs to be cautioned. He's beginning to threaten.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just threatened to kill

7 the person who made this document. You say you contest their figures. We

8 note that, but there is no need to issue threats to people who are not

9 present in the first place. We note your protest.

10 And, Mr. Praljak, I'll just ask the registrar to tell me how much

11 time you've used up already.

12 JUDGE PRANDLER: Mr. Witness, we understand your feelings

13 sometimes when you are getting more and more excited. You have been there

14 fighting in Mostar, and of course General Praljak was there in his other

15 capacity. I understand this, but at the same time, as it was already many

16 times mentioned to you, you have to be concentrating on the questions

17 which are asked by General Praljak and then to answer them. And you do

18 not -- you are not here to fight your private war between yourselves. It

19 is another question if that in that situation I am a Judge for the rights

20 of the accused, and I am for the rights of General Praljak to ask

21 questions. It is again another question if it is the best of the worlds

22 if -- as a matter of fact if two former combatants who fought against each

23 other are asking about each other's position. I tell you as a private

24 person. At the same time, again, I would like to underline and emphasise

25 that I am for the rights of the accused to ask questions. It is what I

Page 14294

1 would have liked to say, and I hope that the situation will calm down and

2 we can finish with this examination. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really have to apologise. I've

4 just seen that this was made by the social institute for -- by the

5 institute for social welfare. It was on the left bank of the Neretva, in

6 fact. I didn't see that before. I saw it -- thought it was the local

7 communes who made this.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you have used 90

9 minutes. That is one hour and a half.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'll be concluding.

11 Q. You just said that it was the institute for social welfare that

12 prepared this document. It bears a date. It bears a number. It's an

13 official document, in other words, so it must have been signed and

14 somebody prepared it officially, and the date is the 11th of March, 1993.

15 That is before the conflict in Mostar. Is that visible there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it says that Croats in Donja Mahala numbered 266. Is that

18 written there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know where those Croats left after the conflict?

21 A. Most of them left before the conflict, before the 9th of May, of

22 their own will to the other side.

23 Q. Which side?

24 A. The west side.

25 Q. Thanks. Tell me one more thing. I'll show you two photographs,

Page 14295

1 and you will show me on them where HVO dug trenches at Stupan. You look

2 at the photographs and tell me where the HVO drug trenches at Stotina [as

3 interpreted]?

4 A. Before I answer, I have to tell you that the Spanish Battalion of

5 the UNPROFOR levelled it all with bulldozers. I watched it with my own

6 eyes from the Hum hill. And this photograph is not good. It was -- the

7 trenches were dug closer to the woods, the weekend cottages.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General -- in fact, Captain, you

9 said -- you said the Spanish Battalion levelled it all. When was that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the Dayton Accords, sometime

11 in 1995, 1996. You seal the heaps here. You see the heaps here, and you

12 see that it's all levelled.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Praljak cannot be heard had.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Can you put a line where the HVO trenches were, according to

16 you?

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Put a number 1.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And now draw an arrow in the direction where you had your

21 reconnaissance positions. On the same photograph.

22 A. Close to this edge.

23 Q. Put a number 2 and sign it.

24 A. [Marks]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.

Page 14296

1 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me to the interpreter.

2 That will be given Exhibit number IC 428.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

4 Q. On this front side here where this man is standing, were there any

5 bunkers or sandbags?

6 A. There were connecting trenches lined with stone.

7 Q. Where?

8 A. Where it is written "HDZ."

9 Q. Raise it so we can see it all.

10 A. This is the top of Stotina.

11 Q. So take it easy and tells us where it was.

12 A. That's the place from which the tank fired at Kamenica. You

13 placed a tank there, and we fired at it.

14 Q. And where were the trenches?

15 A. Behind.

16 Q. But not where you drew them there?

17 A. There were connecting trenches lined with stones and sandbags.

18 The trenches were closer to the weekend cottages.

19 Q. Sign it, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please, for the first

22 and second photographs.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 248,

24 Your Honours -- sorry, 429, Your Honours.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

Page 14297

1 Q. When you attacked, how many soldiers defended Stotina, in your

2 opinion?

3 A. I was not able to count them. I was attacking Visnjica. I wasn't

4 attacking Stotina. I think I told you that before. I was attacking a

5 hundred metres to the other side.

6 Q. But you did reconnaissance prior to that. In your estimate, how

7 many soldiers defended Stotina?

8 A. I don't know, but there were 40 or 50 per shift.

9 Q. My last question: You said that Mr. Resulovic [phoen] was hit,

10 was shot at the Neretva when he was carrying Manjerka.

11 A. Next to the mosque I said, where the air bomb fell.

12 Q. This army dish, was it purely quartermaster's equipment?

13 A. Yes. He was just carrying food. It was a small army dish for

14 food. He just -- he was shot at the entrance to Orucevica Sokak.

15 Q. I'm asking you whether this dish was part of military equipment or

16 civilian equipment?

17 A. You can use it for both. It was a white dish. It wasn't the

18 green olive-grey army colour. You hit also Zulfo Maric in the same

19 way.

20 Q. I have no further questions.

21 A. I saw it with my own eyes. Don't you try to sell me this. He was

22 washing his dish in the Neretva. And you also killed a woman --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am going to give the floor to

24 another counsel. The fourth Defence counsel, and then we go to have a

25 break.

Page 14298

1 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. I'll group my questions according to topics, and please try to

5 answer them as best as possible for the benefit of all of us and the Trial

6 Chamber included.

7 If you remember the map on which last Thursday you drew the

8 demarcation line between the HVO and ABiH, it went along Santic Street and

9 the Bulevar, didn't it?

10 A. It depends on which day. Lines moved, shifted four to five times

11 in the course of combat operations, and it wasn't the same in May, July,

12 or September. They shifted a lot both ways.

13 Q. I'm only interested in the line before the 9th of May and on the

14 9th of May.

15 A. Then there were no lines at that time at all. As far as I know,

16 there were no separation lines then.

17 Q. Can you tell us, up to the 9th of May, on what positions were your

18 units located? Did you hold Donja Mahala?

19 A. No. We held Podvelezje, facing the Serbian side. I was commander

20 of the sector for the defence line at Podvelezje.

21 Q. Witnesses told us before that the separation line was exactly as

22 you showed it. One of the witnesses said, I quote, "It was always that

23 way." And the ABiH, before it clashed with the HVO, held a part of that

24 line, and the HVO held --

25 A. That's not true. The army held the 3rd school, Hotel Mostar, and

Page 14299

1 Vranica.

2 THE INTERPRETER: It has to slow down. The interpreter didn't

3 catch this question and answer.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I will ask my question again because the interpreters did not

6 manage. My question was: Was Donja Mahala, prior to the 9th of May,

7 1993, under the control of the BH army or the HVO?

8 A. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Q. The area of Cernica, until the 9th of May, 1993, was it under the

10 control of the BH army or the HVO?

11 A. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 Q. Can you repeat the answer?

13 A. Cernica was held by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina until the

14 9th of May, 1993.

15 Q. What about the area between Santiceva Street and the Neretva

16 River? Until the 9th of May was it held by the BH army or the HVO?

17 A. To us it was a free area. There were no troops. It was an area

18 where Hotel Bristol was and the kitchen. The army was in Hotel Mostar.

19 Q. From your answer I see that an all these areas I mentioned were

20 held by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina prior to the 9th of May,

21 Cernica and others.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now let us clear up some details about the 9th of May. In the

24 statement you made and we received, in paragraph 9 you said that

25 approximately 1.200 people came on the 9th of May to Donja Mahala.

Page 14300

1 A. They were expelled to the left bank; right.

2 Q. But in your statement you said they were either expelled or they

3 fled. If necessary, I can remind you of the precise contents of your

4 statement, but I quoted from it.

5 Out of those 1.200, to the best of your knowledge, how many were

6 expelled and how many had fled?

7 A. I cannot know that. The lists were made by the Donja Mahala local

8 commune. I don't know who was expelled and who fled. It's not in my

9 power to say so. I saw the lists that they made, so I cannot confirm

10 either way.

11 Q. On those lists was a distinction made between those who were

12 expelled and those who came of their own will, who fled?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So there was only one list?

15 A. I don't know. I really don't know, because I didn't make the

16 lists.

17 Q. But there was one list, one list?

18 A. Yes, one list for everybody, the elderly, women, children, men.

19 As the families came in they were listed.

20 Q. So in that single list it was not possible to distinguish between

21 those who were expelled and those who had fled?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. You mentioned Croats who are listed here as residents of Donja

24 Mahala in March 1993, and you say that prior to the 9th of May, 1993, most

25 of them had left of their own will to the west bank.

Page 14301

1 A. But others stayed with us and spent the whole war with us.

2 Q. Do you know of a case where a Muslim, before the conflict of the

3 9th of May, crossed from one part of Mostar to the other?

4 A. Yes, on this side. Mostly from mixed marriages.

5 Q. All right. Now, tell me, do you know that the following day after

6 the conflict, that is to say already on the 10th of May, Alija Izetbegovic

7 and Mate Boban signed an agreement on a cease-fire, a cessation to all

8 conflicts. Do you know about that?

9 A. No. This is the first time I hear about that.

10 Q. Unfortunately I don't have time to present the documents to you

11 because some other documents are more important, but you can believe me

12 when I tell you that they did do that. They did reach an agreement on the

13 10th of May and issued orders to that effect.

14 Now, do you know that on the 12th of May General Sefer Halilovic

15 and Milivoj Petkovic reached an agreement on the cessation of

16 hostilities?

17 A. No, madam.

18 Q. May we present a set of documents to the witness that I prepared.

19 I don't know whether you have it. It's this bundle this yellow bundle.

20 And on e-court, may we have P 02352. It is an agreement between

21 Halilovic and Petkovic.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I don't mind you

23 showing him the document, but he says he doesn't know about it, so what

24 purpose does it serve?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, it took me three

Page 14302

1 days from the 9th of May to break through from Cekrk. You can't imagine

2 the kind of situation we were in. I could just panelling an area of 100

3 kilometres. I couldn't see this, I didn't hear this. So I'm a complete

4 layman where things like this are concerned.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me to

6 explain. I'm not going to ask anything about the authenticity of the

7 agreement, the way in which it was reached, the conditions of the

8 agreement, or anything else. But I am going to ask him about displaced

9 persons, that topic, because it's a topic that the witness deals with in

10 his statement and he dealt with it in the examination-in-chief. I think

11 it is a very relevant topic, and the document will serve as a basis for

12 that.

13 Q. Anyway, we're not going to go into the entire document, but look

14 at Article 5 of the document, please, where the generals of the two armies

15 agree on the following: "Both sides will assist the return of displaced

16 persons to their own property or homes."

17 Have you seen that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, tell me, do you know what the concept "displaced persons"

20 refers to? What does it mean?

21 A. No. I can't explain that to you now either.

22 Q. All right. I'll tell you and then it will be easier for us to

23 discuss the issue. Displaced persons is a concept denoting people who

24 within the same place of residence changed a local commune, from Mostar --

25 going from East Mostar to West Mostar is considered to be a displaced

Page 14303

1 person.

2 Tell me, do you know of any activities linked to the agreement

3 made by the two armies about the return of displaced persons to their

4 homes?

5 A. No, madam.

6 Q. Would you now take a look at document 4D 00 --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

8 Witness, I'm going to go to the heart of the matter. There was a

9 document that you were shown where the Defence refers to Article 5, which

10 is titled "Return Of Displaced Persons." It is a document dated the 12th

11 of May, 1993. Now, my question is an extremely simple one. In Donja

12 Mahala on the 13th of May, 1993, did Muslims who had been expelled or

13 moved out of Donja Mahala, did they return to West Mostar? It's yes or

14 no.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were war

16 operations. I couldn't know that. There was a war still going on. There

17 was still shooting in Mahala. Nobody could cross the line. That's my

18 conclusion. Whoever approached was either killed or wounded.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll ask the witness

20 the same question, but with your permission could I follow the proceedings

21 that I merit should lead up to the question.

22 Q. Would you look at 4D 00496, please. While you're looking for the

23 document and while we get it up on e-court, I'll tell you what it's about.

24 It's a report on talks conducted between Sefer Halilovic and Arif Pasalic

25 and which was recorded by the corresponding service in the HVO.

Page 14304

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Counsel.

2 What is it, this? Are they telephone conversations or what?

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes. They are intercepts of

4 telephone conversations. Perhaps it's not a telephone conversation. The

5 generals will explain to us. They know how this interception was

6 conducted.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] They were ultra-shortwave

8 connections that were intercepted.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Let's take a look at this together. We have a statement by Arif

11 Pasalic on the topic we're discussing now, and in this first part we have

12 Arif Pasalic's answer. Pasalic says, "The whole day we've been discussing

13 the exchange of prisoners. I received 57, and I sent them 37."

14 Then I'm going to skip over a sentence, and then you goes on to

15 say, "Today we are continuing the transfer of the population to the other

16 side, to their homes. The lists that we have compiled, because there was

17 a number of controversial issues there, and they are afraid that they

18 could infiltrate some special ones there as special groups, and I

19 explained to them that it is totally unfounded. Today we shall transport

20 over to the other side approximately 1.000 persons to return to their

21 homes. Today I should get Zijo Demirovic to this side. We already have a

22 rough list. Therefore, I would ask if you could wait until I bring

23 Demirovic here as a leading person of the party. The mufti and others are

24 also here. So we shall have a consultation and could send the list during

25 the day or in the evening."

Page 14305

1 The conversation based on this document was held on the 27th of

2 May, 1993; is that right?

3 A. I don't know. I see this for the first time.

4 Q. Yes, but you see the date there, the 27th of May.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. From this conversation it would emerge that the lists of persons

7 who are to cross over to the other side, obviously from the east to the

8 west, should be done in cooperation with the representatives of the BH

9 army, the political parties, the Party of Democratic Action, and the

10 muftis; is that right? Does that emerge from this?

11 A. Well, I don't know about this, whether it emerges from this,

12 because I'm reading it for the first time, but I suppose this was in

13 agreement with HVO units.

14 Q. Witness, tell us, do you have any knowledge that any lists were

15 compiled of persons wishing to cross from one bank to the other bank of

16 Mostar?

17 A. No. I say with full responsibility that I don't know about

18 that.

19 Q. Did you perhaps ever hear that in the Djacki Dom in West Mostar a

20 list of Muslims was being compiled, Muslims who said they voluntarily

21 wished to cross over to the other side, to the east? Did you hear about

22 that?

23 A. No, and I swear to that.

24 Q. From this document, if we assume it is a truthful document, would

25 it emerge that in May attempts were being made by people who had left

Page 14306

1 their homes to return to their homes, including the departure of Muslims

2 from the east bank to the west bank? Would that emerge?

3 A. Yes, I would say it does emerge from that.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, can we agree that in May we cannot speak of any

5 persecutions and expulsions of Muslims from their homes in West Mostar?

6 A. You should ask them.

7 Q. I'm asking you. Once the conflicts had ceased, once Mate Boban

8 and Alija Izetbegovic had reached an agreement on a cease-fire and after

9 the heads of the armies tried to agree on how to resolve the conflicts,

10 and all this was going on in the month of May, do you have any knowledge

11 to the effect that in May the HVO persecuted Muslims, so that in the

12 second half of the month hundreds of Muslims were expelled from their

13 homes or anything similar to that?

14 A. Yes, madam.

15 Q. Tell us, then, when?

16 A. There was shooting where we were all the time. There was no

17 cease-fire where we were. There was constant shooting, as far as I know,

18 in May. There was no cease-fire. There was shooting all the time.

19 Q. If you said that on the 9th of May about 1.200 people arrived -

20 that's what you've said - and you said that a total of about 2 to 3.000

21 refugees or displaced persons arrived --

22 A. In the next period. Not that day, in the period that followed. I

23 apologise. That wasn't that day. I said in the period that followed.

24 Q. I'm going to quote you now. You said on Thursday in the

25 transcript on page 77 to 78 of the transcript, you said: "Over the next

Page 14307

1 two, three, or four months a number inhabitants rose to 5.000, of which

2 about 3.000 were old residents and 2.000 were displaced persons or

3 refugees. I'm not sure because I wasn't there." That's what you've

4 said.

5 A. I was there.

6 Q. This is how it was recorded in the transcript. To continue: "All

7 I know is that 2.000 people arrived in the space of just one month."

8 Now, Witness, I consider that the departure of even a single

9 individual is a great tragedy, and I'm very sorry to have to count all the

10 people together, so please don't hold that against me when I am talking

11 about a total number. If you say that 1.200 arrived in May, the 9th of

12 May, in fact, and if you also say that nobody returned to their homes

13 from -- to West Mostar, and if at the end of the entire conflict there was

14 a total of 2.000, that means 800 more than those who were there on the 9th

15 of May, what is this all about, and what statements are these? What month

16 was it when most of the people arrived in Donja Mahala?

17 A. They were people who had flats in one -- on the Bulevar and houses

18 in Donja Mahala, in the Avenija. Most people arrived in July after their

19 expulsion from North Camp; in July.

20 Q. All right. That is the answer I expected, because to my --

21 according to my information, that corresponds to what actually happened.

22 And my next question was supposed to be whether we agree that in fact it

23 was after the beginning of all-out conflict, that is to say after the 30th

24 of June there was a large population displacement. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14308

1 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move on to another topic, Your

2 Honours.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How much longer do you need?

4 How many minutes?

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I need a lot of time, but --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, not a lot of time. You

7 had 25 minutes, and we'll deduct the number of minutes you've already used

8 from that number, which means that you have five minutes left.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] My colleague Mr. Karnavas has just

10 told me that I can use his time or part of his time.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I thought that

12 Mr. Karnavas had given his time to Mr. Praljak.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no. Mr. Karnavas,

14 if I might be allowed to interpret his --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. We said that the

16 Defence had two hours and 30 minutes for the cross-examination. So,

17 Mr. Registrar, would you do the calculations from the start of Defence

18 time. So if you had two and a half hours, that would be it. Your time is

19 over.

20 One hundred and twenty minutes have been used up, up until now.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Well, that's fine. That suits us.

22 That's just the amount of time that we need to finish our questioning.

23 But shall we take a break now? Is this an opportune moment?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, take a look at

25 the calculations again, because it is my impression that there's been a

Page 14309

1 mistake. But let's take a break and that will give the registrar enough

2 time to check this out. So I'd like you to calculate the time used on

3 Thursday and the time used today.

4 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is -- we are

7 resuming, and we -- you have 30 minutes left according to our

8 arithmetics.

9 Mr. Karnavas, I understood a moment ago that you have given your

10 time to Ms. Alaburic. I said last week, Mr. Karnavas, and you made a

11 speech on behalf of the Defence asking for the right to cross-examine. We

12 among the Judges discussed this, and without revealing any secrets, you

13 know that we did not agree completely amongst us, and there is an opinion

14 that there should be no cross-examination of the destruction of the bridge

15 in Mostar. My colleagues do not agree with me.

16 I now discover with amazement that you have no intention of

17 cross-examining and that you have given your time to Mrs. Alaburic. So

18 please explain what happened between Thursday and Friday that made you

19 abandon your request, your previous position?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon,

21 Your Honours. It is not that I have abandoned my request. First of all,

22 let me begin by saying this was a 92 ter witness. In practice, his

23 statement was supposed to come in during the proofing session. The

24 gentleman brought in all sorts of other new material which obviously

25 caused me concern, enough concern for me to request that the post -- that

Page 14310

1 the cross-examination be postponed so I could have the time to evaluate

2 the gentleman's direct examination and contact my investigator and look

3 into matters. That's number one.

4 Number two, I was speaking on behalf of all of the Defence, not

5 just myself, with the exception perhaps for General Praljak, who seemed to

6 think that it was wise to go ahead on his own on his cross-examination.

7 So I think -- out of an abundance of caution, I thought it was necessary

8 for me to -- to have sufficient time to be -- prepare and exercise due

9 diligence.

10 Now, having listened to the cross-examination by Mr. Praljak and

11 by Ms. Alaburic, it appears that a lot of the issues that I think would be

12 necessary to cover are being covered. That's number one.

13 Number two, while I may have some cross-examination for the

14 gentleman, it would appear to me that if I have to balance what I need to

15 get from the gentleman versus what perhaps Ms. Alaburic is trying to

16 elicit from the gentleman, and I put this on the scale, given the limited

17 amount of time I think it would be much more beneficial to have

18 Ms. Alaburic get those points across as opposed to what I have to

19 cross-examine on, and the issues that I have to raise can be raised either

20 through other witnesses or at another point.

21 So that's the purpose. There was no deception of any kind. I

22 just think as a professional I have to call it as I see it. As I

23 indicated on Thursday, yes, I can stand up with just about any witness and

24 do a cross-examination. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's always

25 wise, and a good cross-examination sometimes is no cross-examination, or a

Page 14311

1 limited one, which takes time to prepare. So I'm not trying to -- I don't

2 want to waste the Court's time and I think, I hope I have answered your

3 questions, but if you want some more explanations, fire away with some

4 questions.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 Mrs. Alaburic, you have 30 minutes.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to thank

8 Mr. Karnavas, first, for taking care last Thursday that all the Defence

9 teams have appropriate time to prepare for this cross-examination, and I

10 thank him also for giving me his own time.

11 Q. Witness, I would now like to discuss briefly your knowledge about

12 Bosniaks or Muslims who used to be HVO soldiers. Are you aware that there

13 were Muslim soldiers in the HVO as well?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If I understood correctly from the corrigenda to your statement,

16 you served also as assistant commander for security.

17 A. For security.

18 Q. Very well. You just used another term for security. Tell me, in

19 which way did you communicate with your superiors in the security chain of

20 command?

21 A. By reporting. We had no communications. We went to them to

22 report by night.

23 Q. By night. You mean --

24 A. Yes, after midnight or 1.00 a.m.

25 Q. Did your superiors give you any instructions? Was your

Page 14312

1 attention drawn to certain issues that they believed to be particularly

2 important?

3 A. I was too low in the chain of command for that. They did not tell

4 me that.

5 Q. So you did not get any instructions from them on how to proceed.

6 A. Yes, but on a lower level. Security of the line, securing

7 positions, logistical support and such. On a higher level I was not

8 even -- I did not even have access.

9 Q. Do you know that security organs in the army of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina had special plans for the Muslims in the HVO?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Very well. Let us go to the 30th of June, 1993, a date you

13 mentioned several times in your statement. On that day the BH army

14 attacked and captured Tihomir Misic barracks, Bijelo Polje, Vrapcici,

15 Rastane, and that area north of Mostar; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell us, on those locations or, rather, in those territories that

18 until that time were under the control of the HVO, was the HVO mixed in

19 terms of ethnic composition? Do you know that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us the approximate percentage of Muslims in the HVO

22 in those areas?

23 A. I'm not sure. Proportion was maybe 70 to 30 or 65 to 35, because

24 I wasn't there. I had to stay in Donja Mahala. In that operation, my

25 sole sign many was to secure the line, to hold the line Bulevar-Donja

Page 14313

1 Mahala, so I'm not aware of these things.

2 Q. Tell me, do you know anything, whether from before or later, as to

3 the Muslims' important role in capturing these areas?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can we look at document 5526.

6 A. Which document?

7 Q. P 05526. It should be the second in your file. It's a document

8 drafted on the 1st of October, 1993, by the district military court in

9 Mostar. It's an all-points alert listing 423 members of the HVO who on

10 the 30th of June, 1993, switched to the ABH units. Have you found it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You can check on page 32 the last name on this list of 423 HVO

13 members of Muslim ethnicity who crossed over the BH army.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then let's look at the next document, P 08497. It's a criminal

16 report by the department of military crime police. The date is after the

17 Dayton Accords, the 5th December, 1994. There are 490 names listed here,

18 but I can draw your attention to the fact that some of them were members

19 of the BH army throughout. So this part about desertion from the HVO and

20 crossing over to the BH army does not concern them.

21 From these two documents, Mr. Salcin, it follows that 423 Muslims,

22 members of the HVO, left the HVO on that day and crossed over to the BH

23 army. Have you ever heard that Muslims deserted from the HVO? Or that

24 they left the HVO, if you don't like the previous term.

25 A. I don't know if they had given an oath. There can be no desertion

Page 14314

1 in my book if there had been no oath. If you want me to believe this

2 list, then you have to show me a proper document showing that these

3 soldiers had taken an oath.

4 Q. Let us assume --

5 A. I don't want to assume anything. If there was no oath --

6 Q. I'm not asking you now about these specific names. We don't have

7 time for that. At this moment we're only interested in one thing. Do you

8 have any knowledge that Muslim members of the HVO at some point crossed

9 over to the BH army? And I am now focusing on the 30th of June, 1993, and

10 the 2nd Brigade of the HVO that controlled these territories taken over

11 later by the BH army.

12 A. I see a lot of lists, but individuals moved between the HVO and

13 the BH army three times a year, or a month depending on where the wages

14 were higher. It was always better in the HVO. The money was better and

15 the logistics were better. We were poor. I'm telling you what I know.

16 Q. How come that precisely on the 30th of June, 1993, the BH army

17 suddenly had so much more money that all the Muslims from the 2nd Brigade

18 of the HVO crossed over to the ABiH?

19 A. I'm telling you with full responsibility that nobody got a dinar.

20 I didn't get a single Deutschmark during the war. What money are you

21 talking about? We didn't have bread to eat.

22 Q. It was you who mentioned money. I only picked it up from you.

23 So you had no knowledge that these soldiers crossed over to the

24 ABH for money's sake?

25 A. No.

Page 14315

1 Q. Have you ever heard that the BH army took control of the Tihomir

2 Misic barracks and all the other territories I mentioned earlier because

3 Muslims within the HVO had disarmed their Croat fellows?

4 A. That's not correct.

5 Q. And because they became in those territories members of the -- of

6 the enemy army?

7 A. That's not correct. It was an elite unit of the BH army that

8 captured these territories. There was not a single man from the HVO.

9 They were too afraid of us. And I'm sorry I wasn't involved myself.

10 Q. How can you explain this fact then: All the Muslims -- on the

11 30th of June, 1993, all Muslims who were in the 2nd Brigade of the HVO

12 left the HVO.

13 A. I don't know. I can't explain. I'm not familiar with these

14 things. I'm hearing them for the first time from you.

15 Q. Very well. We'll move then to another subject, and that's

16 probably the only subject I have enough time left for.

17 In your statement you told us, in paragraph 8, that your company

18 was used only for defence purposes.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. On Thursday and earlier today you told us that you

21 personally led the attack of your group at Visica [phoen].

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you then explain how come your company was used solely for

24 defence purposes if you with your units went and conquered some areas that

25 had been under HVO control?

Page 14316

1 A. Yes. When your mothers and your sisters were being killed by

2 snipers all the time, what would you do when you see your own mother and

3 you were sister-in-law with two small children being shot by snipers? You

4 wouldn't be asking me these things.

5 We started attacking, Your Honours, because they started attacking

6 our women and children. Can you imagine -- can you imagine all our

7 families being held for months in basements where it's 50 degrees

8 centigrade? My mother went blind in a basement, and they had no water all

9 summer.

10 Q. Sir --

11 A. They let you question me because you're a woman. You think you

12 can take liberties.

13 Q. I'm asking you to calm down.

14 A. And I'm telling you why we attacked.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, ask your question.

16 What is the question?

17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you tell us approximately at what time did you decide that the

19 Donja Mahala inhabitants would be defended --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters are kindly asking speakers to slow

21 down.

22 JUDGE PRANDLER: We cannot continue like this. Please slow down.

23 Both of you.

24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Speak calmly, please. Even if

Page 14317

1 you find the questions upsetting, you have to -- you have to calm down,

2 because the Accused have the right to question you. The questions have to

3 be asked, and you must answer calmly.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Ms. Alaburic.

6 But before that, I want to ask you something, and I'm sure you can

7 answer calmly. You just said that on the 17th of September you decided to

8 attack because the 200 children were in the basements. It was 40 degrees

9 and more, and we can imagine that situation. When you said that, I

10 wondered immediately about this 17th September attack.

11 Did you decide to attack or was it the commander of the 4th

12 Corps?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the commander of my

14 battalion. I didn't know that he received orders. But Semir Drljevic,

15 after the Napalm bombs that were used, all in the space of one night,

16 Your Honour. I'm very sorry, but had you experienced the kind of

17 shelling I lived through, and I already told you God forbid that you

18 should ever experience what we experienced, and I'm one of the few who

19 survived.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, sir, but you experienced

21 shelling, and for you to -- what you're saying will be understood and

22 heard by many people, so you're going to make an important contribution.

23 You said that you were following orders issued by your commander.

24 So the decision wasn't yours. You were asked to attack; is that right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 14318

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Counsel Alaburic.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness, can you remind us, what date did you say was the day when

5 the bombs were thrown and the tyres on Donja Mahala?

6 A. The 16th of August, the 17th of September, and the last fell

7 sometime in December just before the new year. I know all about that,

8 Ms. Alaburic. I know what it's like.

9 Q. Witness, take a look at document 4D 00497 now, please. Perhaps

10 we'll find some answers as concerns your military operations on the 17th

11 of September.

12 This is document is a reaction by Sefer Halilovic to an interview

13 by Rasim Delic, which was published in the Zagreb magazine Globus, and

14 this reaction, Sefer Halilovic, on the 1st of May, 1995, sent -- was sent

15 to the President, Alija Izetbegovic, and to the members of the Presidency

16 of the Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 There are a lot of interesting conclusions but unfortunately we

18 don't have time to go through them all so would you please focus on two of

19 them. The first is point 9, which is upon page 6. And in point 9, after

20 a description of the preparations for a military operation, Sefer

21 Halilovic says the following: "On the 12th of September, the beginning of

22 the operation --" it's point 9. Point 9. "On the 12th of September, the

23 operation began ..." And then a little further on it says: "On the 13th

24 of September, after taking all measures, all the units went to carry out

25 their tasks ..." And then mention is made that the Prozor Battalion

Page 14319

1 entered Uzdol and that crimes were submitted there against the Croatian

2 population which Sefer Halilovic calls "impermissible acts," unlawful

3 acts.

4 Look at item 10 now, please. I think that will be an important

5 item for our conclusions. It relates to operation Neretva, and the

6 overall results of the operation are impressive. Pursuant to an UNPROFOR

7 report, the BH army advanced and liberated more than 450 square

8 kilometres.

9 Tell us, please, Mr. Salcin. Did you have any knowledge

10 whatsoever to the effect that your military activities in mid-September

11 1993, were part of a broader operation called the Neretva Operation?

12 A. No, madam, never. Not at all. If you believe -- may Sefer

13 Halilovic and Rasim Delic I saw for the first time on television. I never

14 saw them face-to-face during the war. That's how much they cared for me

15 on the right bank of the Neretva, and I will tell them if I ever meet

16 them. They left all the population down there. They didn't help them at

17 all.

18 Q. Well you don't need to see the main commander to --

19 A. I know nothing about this. This is the first time I see this

20 document.

21 Q. All right. I believe you when you say that this is the first time

22 that you have seen the document, but is it the first time that you heard

23 about operation Neretva and these military activities?

24 A. There is Neretva and there is Neretvica, but I say with full

25 responsibilities that I never heard of this.

Page 14320

1 Q. You've just tried to explain to us.

2 Before that I'd like to note that the answer the witness gave was

3 not fully reported. The witness said perhaps this is Neretvica?

4 A. It's the river that flows through Butrovic Polje.

5 Q. He said that Neretva, the river Neretva exists and Neretvica

6 exists.

7 A. This is the first time I hear of Uzdol.

8 Q. And there were operations of Neretva and Neretvica is that what

9 you wanted to say?

10 A. Probably.

11 Q. Now, explain to us what was the Neretvica operation and what was

12 the Neretva operation then?

13 A. Neretva, it was the fertilised part over there, but as to the

14 other, I don't know. I have no idea about any of this. I haven't lied so

15 far and I'm not going to lie now.

16 Q. So if I understand what you're saying, you're saying you didn't

17 know anything about the Neretva operation but you did know about a

18 Neretvica operation?

19 A. No, I didn't know about the Neretva operation, but -- I did know

20 about the Neretva operation but not the Neretvica.

21 Q. So you knew about Neretva?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did you know about operation Neretva?

24 A. That the operation would take place, nothing more than that.

25 Q. Now let us take a look at page 3 of Sefer Halilovic's document.

Page 14321

1 Halilovic speaks about a team preparing --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the interpreters have

3 asked you not to speak at the same time as counsel.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Sefer Halilovic, on page 3, and it is the beginning of the second

7 section, mentions the leaders of the team. You see that Sefer Halilovic,

8 Suljevic, Bilajac, Karic, Najetovic, Hasan Spahic, Dzankovic, and it

9 says: "The aforementioned team will elaborate necessary documents for

10 the operation named Neretva 93," and the entire document refers to this

11 operation named Neretva 93 in which, as it says, 450 square kilometres of

12 territory was liberated which up until then had been under HVO control.

13 So you knew about that operation?

14 A. Yes, I knew about this particular operation. But these are all

15 people from Bosnia. There is not a single man here from Herzegovina.

16 Take a look at the list.

17 Q. All right, Mr. Salcin. Let's move on to the next document,

18 because my time is running out slowly. The next document is 4D 00498, and

19 I'd like to ask you as a member of the BH army to tell us whether you know

20 something or not.

21 Now, this document is a list of conclusions and assignments for

22 the consultations held among the heads of staff and corps commanders of

23 the BH army held in Zenica on the 21st and 22nd of August, 1993, and the

24 document was signed by Mr. Rasim Delic, commander of the staff of the

25 Supreme Command of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Take a look at

Page 14322

1 page 6, the signature and stamp there of the Supreme Command. Have you

2 managed to take a look at that? It's on page 6 in the Croatian version.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, let's take a look at the contents of that document. Almost

5 all the points are as important, but we're going to focus on what I

6 consider to be the most important and that is item 3. Take a look at item

7 3 on page 2.

8 Item 3 says as follows: "The war from the territory will

9 continue, and if there is peace on the basis pursuant to the Geneva

10 agreements."

11 Now, Mr. Salcin, let's try and understand this. Does that mean

12 that the BH army had decided to continue the war to take over territory

13 even if Alija Izetbegovic happens to sign a peace agreement?

14 A. How would I know that? This is Zenica. I was in the south. I

15 didn't have a civilian telephone. Madam, I didn't have any communication

16 with the old bridge let alone further on.

17 Q. Mr. Salcin --

18 A. I have no idea. I don't know. I have absolutely no idea. I

19 couldn't contact the old bridge and now you're troubling me with this

20 document that I know nothing about.

21 Q. Mr. Salcin, all I'm interested in is to hear whether you have any

22 knowledge to the effect that the BH army had plans to take control over

23 certain territories.

24 A. No. No. And I say that with absolute certainty. I in Mostar

25 knew nothing about that.

Page 14323

1 Q. Look at point 5, the last sentence of point 5. Forms of the arms

2 struggle are being debated, and it is said that more than up to present

3 sabotage operations in the front, intelligence and sabotage operations

4 aimed at the aggressor's front line, behind the front line, and deep in

5 his rear should be used more frequently than before.

6 Now today, on page 23 of today's transcript, you said as a

7 sabotage unit you had hand grenades. Now, were you following instructions

8 on the basis of this document, you and your sabotage group? Did you or

9 didn't you?

10 A. These are the things that every army does. Yes, we did, and every

11 army does that.

12 Q. Let's move on to the next point, which is point 8, that I'd like

13 to look at. In the point 8 we have references to logistics for the army,

14 and I'm going to read sentence 3: "In distributing weapons, ammunition,

15 and military materiel, regardless of the complexity -- complicated

16 delivery across the aggressor's territory, this may be effected through

17 the involvement of all available factors and methods, from friends to

18 enemies, from patriots to war profiteers and traitors from the aggressor's

19 armed units."

20 Do you have any knowledge as to how your units -- your unit came

21 by weapons and ammunition and so on?

22 A. Yes. We bought it from black marketeers. That is going on today.

23 There's weapons trafficking today.

24 Q. Let's take a look at point 11 which says as follows: "The state

25 organs of the army, of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army, during the armed

Page 14324

1 conflict were -- the organs of state authority of the BH army have

2 throughout the period of armed combat been out of touch with the general

3 directions of the armed forces. State authorities have only partially

4 switched to wartime function, which has resulted in adequate logistical

5 support of the armed forces.

6 "In certain areas state authorities were acting in a destructive

7 way detrimental to the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina by siding with

8 separatist forces, especially the HVO."

9 Now, tell us, Mr. Salcin, do you have any knowledge about what the

10 position held by the BH army was and the leadership of the BH army with

11 respect to the politics and policies of Alija Izetbegovic -- take part in

12 peace negotiations and to arrive at a peaceful solution through

13 negotiations for the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Madam, dear, I am not a politician. I have nothing to do nor do I

15 know anything about political machinations. They didn't reach me, things

16 like that. All I was bent on doing was save my own life and lives. I

17 have nothing -- I know nothing about any of this.

18 Q. Have you ever heard that a commander of the BH army who decided on

19 the deployment of military units said that they would continue to fight

20 the war regardless of the policies waged by Alija Izetbegovic?

21 A. No, because I was never in physical contact with them.

22 Q. Tell us, please, did you ever hear that in the BH army the

23 following policy was promoted: To strengthen one's own units to the

24 maximum. "We'll never be able to wage war against the Serbs because

25 they're too strong, but when we become strong enough then we can start the

Page 14325

1 struggle against the HVO." Did you ever hear anything like that?

2 A. No, madam.

3 Q. Now let us look at point 3 in chapter 2, "Tasks," paragraph 3,

4 point 3, it says: "In all corps offensive actions -- in all corps

5 offensive actions shall be applied to a greater extent than before.

6 Sabotage and intelligence operations must be used on a mass scale, with

7 emphasis on actions just behind the aggressor's front lines and deep in

8 his rear."

9 Now, you told us about these sabotage operations of your own unit.

10 Now, do you know that in a broader area under HVO control there was a

11 series of sabotage operations launched by the BH army?

12 A. No, madam.

13 Q. Thank you. My time is up, and because of that I'll have to end

14 there, and I'll have to say that I have completed the cross-examination of

15 this witness, and I thank you, Mr. Salcin, for answering my questions. I

16 hope that you have not been too upset by them.

17 A. No, no, not at all. Thank you, too.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any re-examination by the

19 Prosecution?

20 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours, no re-examination.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then, Witness, on

22 behalf of my colleagues I'd like to thank you for coming. At times your

23 testimony gave rise to a lot of emotion and vivid testimony. Rest

24 assured that the Judges can understand this type of behaviour when one

25 gets aroused. However, one should always try and remain calm. And what

Page 14326

1 we gave you instructions to try and stay calm, you did your best to do

2 that.

3 Having said that, I wish you bon voyage back home and every

4 success in that noble profession of yours as a fireman in future.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say one word? I would

6 just like to greet all those present. I should like to thank the Court

7 for -- because I had to wait such a long time and on behalf of the fallen

8 fighters and everybody else, thank you for inviting me to come. I can

9 never repay you enough. So thank you, Your Honours. That is all I have

10 left in life. I don't need anything else. I'm not afraid for my own

11 skin. My skin -- I lost my skin and life a long time ago.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, we have a witness

14 waiting, and it is Mr. -- who?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Witness Nermin Malovic, Your Honours, and my

16 colleague Ms. Gillett will be conducting the examination of this witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber will

18 retire for -- we don't need to retire because our colleague has joined us,

19 which was the reason we were going to retire. But since we're all here,

20 let's have the next witness brought in.

21 As far as the next witness is concerned, the Prosecution will have

22 one hour, and the Defence will have one hour, which means 60 minutes

23 divided by 6 is 10 minutes apiece per Defence team.

24 I would like to take advantage of this time to read an oral

25 decision having to do with a motion submitted by -- let's move into

Page 14327

1 private session first for that.

2 [The witness enters court]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, it's too late. The

4 witness is already in the courtroom so let's move back into open session

5 and I'll deliver the ruling in due course.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Sir, let me check

8 and see if you can understand what I'm saying in your own language. If

9 so, tell me that you understand.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] May we have your first and last

12 name, and date of birth, please?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nermin Malovic. Date of

14 birth the 14th of February, 1969.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your current

16 occupation.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a photographer.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir have you ever testified

19 before an international or national court of law about the incidents that

20 took place in 1990s in your country or is this the first time you're

21 testifying?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the first time that I'm

23 testifying.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would you now go

25 ahead and read the solemn declaration, sir.

Page 14328

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You may be

4 seated.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Some information to start off

7 with from me. You're going to start off by answering questions put to you

8 by the Prosecutor, Ms. Gillett, whom I'm sure you've already met. Then

9 the Defence will have one hour for the cross-examination, and it will

10 either be the Defence counsel or the accused themselves who will be asking

11 you questions, and a member of the Bench might ask you a question if they

12 deem necessary.

13 I'd like to say good afternoon to Ms. Gillett, and I give you the

14 floor.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honours, and good afternoon to

18 Your Honours.

19 Examination by Ms. Gillett:

20 Q. Witness, before the outbreak of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina where

21 were you living?

22 A. I was living in Mostar.

23 Q. And from when had you been living in Mostar?

24 A. I was born in Mostar, as I said, in 1969. I completed elementary

25 school in a place called Jablanica, because my parents lived in Jablanica

Page 14329

1 at the time. I completed first year of secondary school in Jablanica and

2 then continued my secondary school education in Mostar. After that, when

3 I went to Sarajevo to university in 1990, I transferred to Jablanica, and

4 from that time I am an inhabitant of Bosnia-Herzegovina living in

5 Jablanica.

6 Q. Now, back in 1991, at that time, were you studying or did you have

7 a job?

8 A. No. I was studying, but I also worked as a photographer,

9 freelance, for a number of newspapers and magazines throughout the whole

10 of the -- throughout the former Yugoslavia.

11 Q. And do you recall when the outbreak of war took place in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. In 1992, although it went little by -- it progressed little by

14 little. First of all there was tension. There were tense situations, and

15 this escalated into all-out conflicts.

16 Q. And what about in Jablanica where you say you were living? What

17 was the situation in Jablanica?

18 A. The situation up until the outbreak of the conflict between the BH

19 army and HVO was fairly calm. That is say there weren't any open

20 conflicts. The front line facing the former JNA was about 20 kilometres

21 away from Jablanica as the crow flies, so that there were no direct war

22 operations in the surrounding parts of Jablanica.

23 Q. You mention the situation was calm up until the outbreak of the

24 conflict between the BH army and the HVO. When was the outbreak of that

25 conflict that you have mentioned?

Page 14330

1 A. The beginning of 1992. But I have to say here that at that time

2 in Jablanica where I was there was parallel military authority. There was

3 the BH army command and there was the Croatian Defence Council command,

4 and you had the military police of the BH army and the military police of

5 the Croatian Defence Council as well.

6 Q. Now, as far as your position was concern, did you have any

7 involvement with the army in 1992?

8 A. Yes. I volunteered to join the units of the BH army, offering my

9 services as a photographer, because as I said earlier, I had worked as a

10 freelance photographer for some newspapers and magazines in the territory

11 of the former Yugoslavia. They accepted me, and I started working for the

12 press service of the BH army.

13 Q. Do you recall the date on which you started working for the press

14 service?

15 A. I don't recall the date, but I know it was before the official

16 mobilisation call-up came, a month or two before that.

17 Q. What was that date of the official mobilisation call-up?

18 A. I really can't remember the date, but it was early in the summer.

19 It was it hot.

20 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were with the BH army. Which section

21 of the BH army did you join?

22 A. I joined the press service of the BH army, and I took up my duties

23 as a photographer, nothing more. Later, in the course of further

24 organisation within the BH army, the 44th Brigade was formed at Jablanica,

25 the 44th Mountain Brigade, and I started working for the press service of

Page 14331

1 that brigade.

2 Q. And do you recall who the commander of this 44th Brigade was?

3 A. The commander was Enes Kovacevic.

4 Q. Now, as far as your work as photographer was concerned, what was

5 the exact nature? What were you expected to do in the role of

6 photographer?

7 A. I first have to say that I brought my own equipment to the unit

8 because they had none, and using my equipment I photographed major events

9 of the time, and I have to stress it was not allowed for me to follow BH

10 army units into combat activities because I was at risk of being captured

11 by the enemy, and in that case they would also capture all the material

12 that I had filmed.

13 Q. What did you wear in your role within the BH army? Did you wear a

14 uniform or were you in civilian clothing?

15 A. At the outset I wore civilian clothing until I received a uniform

16 from friends, because at that time the BH army did not have enough

17 uniforms for such positions as mine. The priority in distributing

18 uniforms was to give them to soldiers on the front line. But later I had

19 a uniform with BH army insignia.

20 Q. Were you also given a rank?

21 A. No, never. I was always on record as a photographer of the press

22 service.

23 Q. And what about any weapons? Did you carry a weapon?

24 A. No. I never received a weapon for the same reason that I

25 described when I was talking about uniforms. The priority was to give

Page 14332

1 weapons to troops on the front line, not those in the rear.

2 Q. Did you ever work, was it confined only to Jablanica or did it

3 take you beyond Jablanica?

4 A. For the most part in Jablanica. Occasionally I would go to Mostar

5 and to Konjic, which are neighbouring towns, but never too far. I went to

6 Sarajevo on one occasion. But my job was based and conducted in the area

7 of Jablanica. Municipality, I mean.

8 Q. Moving on into 1993, what was the situation in Jablanica in

9 1993?

10 A. Early in the year, so that would be winter 1993, the situation was

11 as follows: There were two parallel armies, the BH army and the Croatian

12 Defence Council, and parallel officers corps. The armies were

13 distinguishable by uniforms and insignia. Their commands or staffs were

14 in different locations, and their military police forces too. So they

15 were not in the same room or the same building.

16 The situation varied from day-to-day. Sometimes it was tense,

17 depending on the reports we were receiving on the radio and television,

18 and it also depended on the rumours that circulated at the time in

19 Jablanica.

20 Q. Now, as far as your work was concerned as photographer, during

21 1993, what photographs do you recall taking?

22 A. I recorded everything that could be noteworthy. Sometimes

23 noteworthy from my point of view, not only what I was ordered to record

24 down the chain of command. Thus I remember that towards the end of 1992,

25 on one occasion I followed members the BH army who were going to take

Page 14333

1 positions on a mountain close to Sarajevo, but I was not allowed to go

2 directly to the front line. I just had the chance to film what was going

3 on in the rear.

4 In 1993, since there were no direct combat activities before the

5 spring, there was nothing particularly interesting to photograph in

6 Jablanica, so that I used that opportunity to go to the neighbouring town

7 of Konjic. That was under the -- under the Serb shelling, and I made some

8 photographs there.

9 Q. If I can just pick up on a point you made about Jablanica. You

10 said there was nothing interesting prior to the spring of 1993. What

11 happened after that spring of 1993 in Jablanica?

12 A. Members of the Croatian Defence Council, who were based in

13 Jablanica at the time, I think it was over the weekend that they left

14 Jablanica. The tentative information that was circulating then was to the

15 effect that they had gone to a military exercise on a plateau called

16 Rizovac, west of Jablanica. Later we found out that the plan of the

17 Defence council was to use this pretext of a military exercise to be able

18 to enter Jablanica in triumph several days later, and I must say most HVO

19 members at the time had left their families behind in their apartments in

20 Jablanica.

21 After the start of that military exercise, Jablanica began to be

22 shelled. The shelling began during the night, and since that was the

23 first real combat activity Jablanica had seen, we were not sure exactly

24 where the shells were falling. We found out later that the shells had not

25 fallen into the centre but a couple of kilometres further out, out of the

Page 14334

1 town of Jablanica.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, sir.

3 Your Honour, if I may at this point take the opportunity to make

4 one observation, and this particularly goes to whenever Ms. Gillett brings

5 in a witness.

6 This is all new information that we don't have from the statement.

7 Presumably given the pace of questioning, this information was provided to

8 Ms. Gillett at some point during the proofing session. Now, here we are

9 receiving again all this new information, no proofing notes. We don't

10 have any idea, and yet we're going to be expected 10 minutes each to do

11 cross-examination. This is trial by ambush. This is unfair, and it's

12 done repeatedly when Ms. Gillett specifically does this. And I'm pointing

13 this out because I notice this over and over and over again. So we need

14 explanations.

15 Again I'm going to ask that cross-examination be postponed.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Ms. Gillett, you have to limit yourself on principle to the

18 witness's written statement, because if you are going to raise issues that

19 are not in the statement the Defence has the right to protest.

20 Now, if you have learned in the meantime that this witness has

21 the knowledge about the shelling of Jablanica, I don't see why that is not

22 in the written statement. He was in the press service of the 44th

23 Mountain Brigade. Ask him what he was doing, what kind of press service

24 it was because this is the first time we're seeing a press officer from

25 the ABH.

Page 14335

1 If I were doing the questioning, I would have approached that

2 question a long time ago, believe me. But please conduct your examination

3 so that it is useful. He may have brought some photos that he had made at

4 the time. They could be of benefit to us perhaps, because he's a

5 photographer after all. That would be perhaps more useful than his

6 impressions about the shelling of Jablanica that other witnesses may later

7 tell us more and better about.

8 MS. GILLETT: Very well, Your Honour. It is mentioned in the

9 witness's statement as regards the HVO attacking the area of Jablanica

10 back in the early part of 1993, and the witness is, if I can put it this

11 way, putting flesh on the bones of that --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I'm entitled to the flesh as well. I cannot

13 cross-examine on the bones. If they're going to bring in flesh, they give

14 it to me in advance. I'm professional. I'm entitled to do my job

15 professionally. I cannot do it. I cannot provide Mr. Prlic with

16 effective assistance of counsel. This is a violation of his rights. And

17 he has human rights as well, not just victims. The accused have human

18 rights and we must respect them they are not being respected by new

19 information leak -- coming out.

20 Now, if she learned of this information, she can pass it on. It's

21 Monday. We should have had it. I presume the gentleman came in on

22 Saturday, they met on Sunday. I don't know but I'm entitled to have this.

23 This happens repeatedly. This is trial by ambush.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think we might support that

25 entirely --

Page 14336

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. STEWART: We support that entirely, Your Honour. If one looks

3 at what was actually said in the statement that Ms. Gillett has just

4 referred to, it doesn't come within a million miles of indicating that

5 this witness is going to give any evidence at all about that, as indeed

6 there was absolutely zero indication in the 65 ter summary.

7 MS. GILLETT: Well, I would like to think that in the same way as

8 I have to deal with matters off-the-cuff that I learn for the first time

9 when I'm on my feet that counsel for the Defence are equally able to deal

10 with the matters that the witness mentions for the first time in court.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: This is ridiculous. I don't need a lecture on

12 trial advocacy. There's a huge difference between direct examination and

13 cross-examination. In order to do an effective cross, I need to have the

14 information in advance. I need to check it out. I need to check other

15 documents. This is not just off-the-cuff. I don't need a lecture from

16 someone -- from the Prosecution side on how to prepare my case and how to

17 protect my client. And I think others may want to join in on this one.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Gillett.

19 MS. GILLETT: I can move on, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Gillett, I will give you the

21 floor, but you know that on the basis of a written statement you make a 65

22 ter summary. You know that this is a gigantic affair. There are 400 of

23 witnesses, millions of documents, and millions of pages. So the Defence

24 counsel, who certainly have less resources than you do in their work, what

25 do they do when a witness appears? They look at the summary and they

Page 14337

1 prepare accordingly. As required, they will also look at the written

2 statement. But Defence counsel will primarily focus on the summary. If

3 the summary makes no reference to the shelling of Jablanica, that is in

4 his written statement in just a tiny little statement, the Defence will

5 necessarily think that you will ask him about Gabela, Heliodrom, detention

6 centres, and the photographs he took, and they are going to prepare for

7 that. That is it.

8 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I'll move on.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, let it be quite

11 clear that the Defence team of General Praljak subscribes to every word my

12 esteemed colleague has said.

13 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The problem is that this

15 Prosecution covers a number of detention centres and municipalities, and

16 you try to sweep over it all with every witness. Taking into account all

17 the problems of time, efficiency, rationality, you should focus witness by

18 witness on the crucial aspects.

19 This witness is a photographer, a press officer, and it is through

20 that lens that you should approach the witness. If I were questioning, I

21 would not be asking about Jablanica. I would be asking him about his

22 profession, his method of work, what he saw in his years as freelance

23 reporter. And as for the shelling of Jablanica, I would do it through

24 another witness.

25 So please focus, Ms. Gillett, to those sections of his witness

Page 14338

1 statement that look much more interesting to me. We have already lost a

2 quarter of an hour.

3 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, did you ever have occasion in 1993 to go to Grabovica?

5 A. Yes. At the beginning of the summer of 1993 I received

6 information that prisoners had been freed from the prisoner camps. We

7 called them concentration camps at the time. From Dretelj, that is, and

8 Heliodrom.

9 Q. If you can pause there. Do you remember the exact date on which

10 you received this information?

11 A. That was the 28th of August, 1993, and I received the information

12 in the morning. And as I worked with foreign journalists from time to

13 time, and at that time in Jablanica there was a female journalist, and she

14 was not a citizen of the former Yugoslavia, I thought it interesting --

15 that it would be interesting to her, too -- for her, too, to take

16 photographs and make some video footage of prisoners who had been released

17 who had been released from those concentration camps.

18 Q. Now, do you recall through whom you heard the information that

19 there were these prisoners that were being freed from, as you put it,

20 concentration camps? Do you remember who told you that?

21 A. I received the information in the command of the 44th Brigade,

22 because the press service of the 44th Brigade was there, their office.

23 After I received the information, I went to find the journalist and

24 organise transport for the two of us from Jablanica to Grabovica, which is

25 at a distance of some 10 kilometres to the south.

Page 14339

1 Q. Now, do you recall the name of this journalist and for whom she

2 worked?

3 A. I think she was a freelancer, which means she didn't work for any

4 agency specifically. I know that her name was Eileen. I don't know the

5 surname. And I also know that the material, the footage she took she sold

6 later on to the various news agencies in Sarajevo.

7 Q. Now, when you heard this news and you, as you said, went to find

8 this female journalist, where did you go to?

9 A. You mean when did I go to find her or when did I go with her?

10 Q. No. You mentioned earlier, I'm sorry, about trying to organise

11 transport for the two of you from Jablanica to Grabovica. Did you manage

12 to arrange, to organise that transport?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I did organise the transport, and in Grabovica -- we

14 were in Grabovica for half an hour or 45 minutes after receiving that

15 information, that is to say information that the prisoners from these

16 camps would be released.

17 Now, as far as I know in Grabovica we spent from 10.00 to 10.30 in

18 the morning, and we arrived at the hydroelectric power plant in Grabovica,

19 that location, and the upper entrance into the power plant, and there we

20 found a number of prisoners who had already been released.

21 Q. Now, if I could just pause there. When you arrived at the

22 hydroelectric plant did you notice whether or not there were any other

23 journalists or photographers or press officers at Grabovica power plant?

24 A. No, I didn't notice anybody there. At that point in time we were

25 alone, just Eileen and myself. She did her part of the job, and I took

Page 14340

1 photographs of what I thought was interesting.

2 Q. Now, what exactly did you see when you got to that power plant?

3 Can you describe what the scene was as you arrived with Eileen?

4 A. We found a certain number of prisoners who were released. They

5 were in an extremely bad state, physically exhausted, and they were not in

6 a good mental condition either. It was obvious.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just said that something --

8 you just said that something -- something that struck me. They were

9 physically exhausted and mentally not good either. What allowed you to

10 think that they were psychologically affected as well?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when you look into somebody's

12 eyes, Your Honour, you can see whether it is a stable person, whether they

13 act normal or not. It is sometimes very obvious when a person can not

14 control their behaviour, when the look in their eyes is glassy. Some of

15 these things can be seen on film and others can't.


17 Q. Following on from His Honour's question, did you talk to any of

18 these people?

19 A. I talked to, I don't know how many of those poor people. Their

20 stories were all one like another. They all looked extremely bad. And if

21 I can tell you -- just the gist of what I found out from them is that they

22 had been imprisoned in camps. They were maltreated, and on that day they

23 had been brought by HVO trucks to the HVO positions near Vrdi in Doljani,

24 and told to get off the trucks and walk towards the positions of BH army,

25 and they obeyed, of course.

Page 14341

1 On the other side of the line they were met by UNPROFOR units and

2 helped them to get onto trucks and APCs, UNPROFOR trucks and APCs. And

3 they were taken from there, from the area of Dreznica, to a slightly safer

4 area where I was at the time, which was the hydro power station of

5 Grabovica. Later on the plan was that they would be taken over by BH army

6 units and transported to Jablanica.

7 Those are -- the basic information that I managed to gather.

8 Q. Do you know who these people were?

9 A. As I've already said, they were people who came from Herzegovina

10 who were incarcerated or imprisoned or captured by the Croatian Defence

11 Council. They were taken to camps in Dretelj and Heliodrom. They spent

12 some time there, and on the basis of some agreements and negotiations,

13 they were finally released.

14 Let me mention that together with these groups of people who were

15 liberated from the camps there were a number of civilians who were not in

16 the camps, and you can also see that on the photographs. There were

17 elderly women there, younger women, and children.

18 Q. Do you know how those other people who had not been in the camps

19 came to be there amongst the people who had come from the camps?

20 A. I don't know how they came to be there, but I just heard that the

21 HVO members went around the villages and told people that they had to

22 collect up the bare essentials, and then they were forced to board trucks

23 and they were transported to the locations I mentioned ago -- that I said

24 before.

25 Q. And from whom did you hear that?

Page 14342

1 A. Dreznica. Well, from the people who were there on the spot, the

2 people who had been transported by trucks, those displaced persons and

3 refugees.

4 Q. You mentioned these people were from Herzegovina. Do you know

5 what ethnicities, what nationals these people were?

6 A. Yes. They were Muslims. And there were even some comments to the

7 effect that "they were doing this to us just because we were Muslims," the

8 people said. And quite that -- that was obvious from the clothes they

9 wore. You could recognise the traditional type of clothing that the

10 Muslim women wore.

11 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that you took some photographs and also

12 that the lady, Eileen, that you were with also took some footage, I think

13 you called it earlier. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, I'd like you to be shown Exhibit 00977, which is, as you'll

16 see, a video, and I'm just going to show a short segment from the 19

17 minutes that it totals. The extract lasts for about one minute.

18 MS. GILLETT: Just for the benefit of the Court, the subtitles are

19 in B/C/S. The language spoken on the video is French, and the Prosecution

20 have prepared in advance an English transcript for the benefit of the

21 interpreters, and so hopefully although it's equipment commentary on the

22 video it will be able to be followed with some ease.

23 If it could be played now. Thank you.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] On the 31st of August these people

Page 14343

1 arrived in Jablanica. A bit earlier, during their release, their Croat

2 captors amused themselves by forcing them to run under rifle fire. Four

3 people got killed on that occasion. Their skinny bodies bear witness to a

4 horrible treatment they underwent and their statements reveal

5 bestialities. Packed in warehouses, starved, unbearably thirsty. In

6 order to survive they had to drink their own urine.

7 "Detention in the Dretelj and Gabela camps confirm again the daily

8 horror that reigns in detention camps in Bosnia. According to testimonies

9 corrected by the UNHCR, they were constantly beaten and burnt with

10 cigarettes. Some of them died immediately. Certain Croatian soldiers

11 amused themselves by opening fire from automatic rifles on warehouses

12 where they were kept. 30 of them got wounded in that way. In addition to

13 physical there was also mental torture. They had to sing the songs that

14 were derogatory for Muslims. The UNHCR employees claim that those people

15 are nowadays desperate and humiliated. In the Dretelj camp, there are

16 allegedly 2 to 2.500 detainees."


18 Q. Witness, first of all, did you recognise the place shown in the

19 video?

20 A. Yes, I did. That's the plateau of the hydroelectric power plant

21 at Grabovica.

22 Q. Secondly, do you know who was responsible for taking that video,

23 that particular extract that we've just watched?

24 A. I can't be 100 per cent certain, but I think it was filmed by my

25 colleague, Eileen, because after the filming of material of this kind

Page 14344

1 Eileen set off for Sarajevo to hand over the film material she had made,

2 to hand it over to some newspaper. She didn't specify which.

3 Since there was just myself and her there at that time at the

4 hydroelectric power plant, and I took only photographs, not video

5 recordings, I assume that it was Eileen who took this video recording.

6 Q. Now, having watched the video did you recognise any of the people

7 that were shown in the video?

8 A. Yes, I do recognise them. They were the same people that I

9 photographed that day or that morning. I don't know their names, but I

10 can recognise them, and I can even recognise the positions at which this

11 was filmed, because there are my -- I have my own photographs from --

12 taken from the same angle, like this video footage.

13 Q. Now, we also saw on that video footage, and if necessary we can

14 play it again, in the left-hand corner of the video were the initials HTV,

15 and on the right-hand top corner were the initials TV5. Do you know what

16 the initials HTV stand for?

17 A. I don't know, but I can assume. TV houses can buy this from

18 agencies, and that was normal under situations like that. So I assume

19 that a television network bought this material from a news agency and then

20 this was taken over by other networks.

21 Q. Do you know specifically what the initials HTV stand for?

22 A. HTV? Yes, Croatian Television.

23 Q. Now, the people that were shown in the video and which you've

24 mentioned several times that you took photographs of, before we get to

25 those photographs, do you know what happened to those people from the

Page 14345

1 point where you saw them in Grabovica? What then happened to them?

2 A. After they arrived in Grabovica, a number of those people were

3 transported to Jablanica where they were put up in the premises of -- or,

4 rather, the sports hall at the elementary school and in the cinema hall in

5 Jablanica and in similar facilities, the ones existing on Jablanica -- in

6 Jablanica municipality. Some of them stayed on in Grabovica in the

7 makeshift sheds that were previously used for workers, to house workers

8 who had worked on the construction of the hydroelectric power plant, their

9 lodgings.

10 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I'm mindful of the time, and as I'm

11 about to move to showing the witness some of the photographs, now might be

12 a convenient time to break.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's take a break. The

14 registrar will tell me how much the time Prosecution has left.

15 We reconvene at 6.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

19 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Malovic, moving to the photographs that you mention you

21 took, do you recall how many photographs you took on the 28th of August at

22 Grabovica?

23 A. I think there were a total of seven films, of which three in

24 colour and four black and white.

25 Q. And how many photographs was each film able to hold?

Page 14346

1 A. Thirty-six exposures.

2 Q. Now, when you went there and you took those photographs, were you

3 taking them on behalf of somebody or was this of your own initiative?

4 A. Let me just clarify. On that day I went to Grabovica twice. The

5 first time earlier in the morning at my own initiative, and I took with me

6 Eileen, the journalist that I mentioned earlier on. We were in the

7 Grabovica area for about two hours. After that I went back to Jablanica

8 and received instructions from the press service that -- from the press

9 service of the BH army that I was to go again and take photographs of the

10 people who had been released from the prisons, although I had already been

11 earlier on that day in the morning. So I went back to the Grabovica area

12 at about 1.00 or half past 1.00 in the afternoon.

13 Q. Now, when you returned, did you return alone or did anybody else

14 accompany you?

15 A. I returned with the journalist Eileen, and she continued the

16 journey to Sarajevo, and I assume that she reached Sarajevo that same day,

17 because, after returning to Jablanica for the second time, the duty

18 officer in the police station by which I happened to be passing said that

19 he had seen me 15 minutes prior to that on RTL television. So I assume

20 that Eileen reached Sarajevo that day and that she managed to hand over

21 the material when she did so, which was later distributed.

22 Q. Now, the photographs that you took, these some seven films that

23 you've mentioned, what did you do with the films?

24 A. The four black and white films I developed myself in my own

25 laboratory, and the three colour films I wasn't able to develop there

Page 14347

1 because I didn't have the necessary equipment, and seven days later I was

2 with another lady journalist, Maggie O'Kane, she worked for The Guardian,

3 and I worked for her as an interpreter and went to Sarajevo so that the

4 photographs we had taken, to try and get them to England. So those three

5 films were developed by a technician I think from Reuters. Anyway, they

6 used their studio at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo to do that.

7 Q. Now, you mention it was in an attempt to try to get these

8 photographs to England. Did you succeed in getting those photographs to

9 England?

10 A. No, unfortunately not, for technical reasons. Because of the

11 conditions in Sarajevo, we weren't able to do that. I remember it was a

12 Friday, and the photographs were supposed to be scanned and sent by 12.00

13 to London. However, there was a power cut in Sarajevo that day.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, sir. I have to

15 intervene because there's something I don't quite understand here. You

16 were explaining to us that the colour photographs were supposed to be sent

17 to London, but you received instructions from the press service of your

18 brigade to go and take the photographs in the first place. So those

19 photographs, in fact, belonged to the BH army, did they not? So did you

20 have instructions to send them to London or was that on an initiative that

21 you took on your own?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was my own initiative,

23 because parallel to the fact that I worked -- rather, was engaged by the

24 BH army as a photographer, I also helped foreign journalists who happened

25 to be in that area during that time, and one of those journalists was Ms.

Page 14348

1 O'Kane, she came several days after these people were released from

2 Dretelj, from Gabela and Heliodrom, and the -- her intention was to go to

3 Sarajevo, but she wasn't able to get through. And so she decided to stay

4 on in Jablanica and write -- and make a story about those people who were

5 released. And I worked as her interpreter. I served as her interpreter

6 on that occasion, but if I -- I needed a permit to go to Sarajevo from the

7 BH army. They showed understanding and gave me permission to go to

8 Sarajevo. But there again, that didn't prove to be successful, this

9 attempt to send the photographs. But the important thing is that we

10 developed the films that day with the help of Reuters, in the Reuters

11 studio.


13 Q. Once you had these photographs, colour photographs, developed and

14 you said you developed the black and white photographs yourself, what did

15 you do with those photographs?

16 A. Nothing special. I just left them there as documentation, and

17 part of that documentation was on the premises of the BH army, in the

18 press service there, and the bulk of the documentation stayed with me. So

19 I made copies of what I could.

20 Q. And when you were developing the black and white photographs

21 yourself, how did you go about developing those photographs?

22 A. Well, in the usual way. Everything was done by hand. As I said,

23 I didn't have automatic equipment for development, so that I had to do

24 everything by hand manually with the material that I had. The materials I

25 used weren't that good quality, so some of the photographs were of a

Page 14349

1 poorer quality than they would otherwise have been had we had all the

2 necessary material.

3 Q. Did you do anything to the photographs as you were developing

4 them?

5 A. Nothing except basic developing. You can't do anything else. You

6 can either develop a film successfully or you destroy the photographs in

7 the process.

8 Q. Now --

9 A. Luckily we were successful.

10 Q. Do you -- do you recall being interviewed by somebody from the

11 ICTY?

12 A. Two years ago, an investigator, Romeu Ventura, was his name.

13 Q. At that time did you give photographs to that investigator?

14 A. Yes. At the time, that is to say two years ago, the situation had

15 already changed so that I had already had the films developed, the ones

16 that were developed in August 1993, and I scanned those films to a CD and

17 handed it over to Mr. Romeu [as interpreted].

18 Q. Now, did you do that with all of the photographs or only some of

19 the photographs?

20 A. No. We didn't scan all the photographs. We -- well, we selected

21 the photographs that were the best representatives of the situation in the

22 locality at that time. There were also -- had photographs which we didn't

23 scan.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you say "we," do you mean

25 Mr. Romeu Ventura? Did he select the photographs? Did he make the

Page 14350

1 choice?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told Mr. Ventura that I had seven

3 films, and he said that a selection had to be made of photographs as

4 exhibits and evidence, and among other things Mr. Ventura advised me or us

5 what photographs to select. As I say, the photographs which would best

6 represent and portray what was going on.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he chose them.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We chose them together. I chose

9 some; he chose others.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I asked the questions that the

11 Defence was going to ask, so, Mr. Murphy, I don't think there's any need

12 for you to get up on your feet.

13 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I was just going to ask whether the

14 Prosecution has since then taken into its possession the rest of the

15 photographs, because clearly the Defence would have an interest in seeing

16 them, and I think we would be entitled to in the circumstances.

17 MS. GILLETT: Of course that's right, and had we taken possession

18 of those photographs then we would, of course, have disclosed them in the

19 normal fashion. We have not taken possession of those further

20 photographs.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: But that's not the point. The point is that a

22 selection made, and once Ms. Gillett learned of that selection or whoever

23 they communicated it to. It was incumbent upon them to get all of it

24 because that's -- that's what the evidence is, is all those photographs,

25 not what this gentleman thinks accurately depicts the situation as he

Page 14351

1 wants it -- as he wants the Trial Chamber to know, because there may be

2 some photographs that may be exculpatory. And so I think that's why we

3 need to have all of them.

4 MS. GILLETT: I understand that the purpose of going through the

5 selection process with the investigator was exactly to look at the

6 situation --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Gillett, at times I am taken

8 aback by the way which the OTP works. You should have taken all the

9 photographs, not just a selection, and then we wouldn't have been wasting

10 all this time.

11 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, the Prosecution seems to be constantly

12 caught between overloading the Chamber with material that could otherwise

13 be considered duplicative or, indeed, irrelevant, and indeed not providing

14 enough, and it seems that whichever we choose is not the correct way. It

15 has to be said that the purpose of going through the photographs that were

16 in the witness's possession with an investigator was indeed to catch

17 anything that may or may not be exculpatory and otherwise to present the

18 Prosecution case and thereby we're entitled to select the evidence that

19 best represents and goes to support the body of our case, taking into

20 consideration anything that may be exculpatory which was done at that

21 stage.

22 MR. MURPHY: Ms. Gillett's is making two completely contradictory

23 points. The point is not whether these photographs would necessarily be

24 given to the Trial Chamber. Clearly that is a decision which the parties

25 would make. But as far as the second point is concerned, clearly the

Page 14352

1 Defence would be entitled to see whatever photographs this witness

2 produced because it may be that some of them would be of evidentiary value

3 to the Defence and it's a simple point and as Your Honour says it should

4 have been done and we ask that it be done now.

5 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, it is right the Prosecution don't

6 have a duty to go and search for that kind of material that's been

7 mentioned.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: It's not a matter of searching. We've gone down

9 this road again. Far -- I mean, and this is -- clearly what we're seeing

10 here is the adversarial process at work, because on the -- when you have

11 the inquisitorial the Prosecution has an obligation to search for the

12 truth. Here they're searching for evidence to fit their case,

13 predetermined that these for example guilty, so they're only selecting

14 that.

15 Now, we're not asking them to search. They came across it. They

16 selected. They chose. There's a big difference. So they decided not to

17 collect certain evidence. I'm not asking them to go out and look for it,

18 like Diogenes with a lantern, just try to find out some evidence for the

19 Defence. No. But when they have evidence and it comes their way, what

20 I'm asking and what I'm entitled to is to have all that evidence. So

21 there's a big distinction, and I'm not saying that there may be something

22 in the photographs that might be helpful to the Defence. We don't know.

23 And I think it's erroneous and it's false for Ms. Gillett to say that we

24 don't have a duty to -- to search for, because here they're not searching.

25 The evidence came to them and they had an obligation to collect it on turn

Page 14353

1 it over, and then the Defence can decide what if anything to do with that

2 evidence. That's the way the adversarial process works and that's how

3 this process works as well. Not the ICC, where at least the folks finally

4 woke up and said, Hey, we better get that Prosecutor to look for

5 exculpatory evidence with equal zeal. We don't have that process here.

6 But when they come across evidence, they have to collect it. There lies

7 the difference. And here the evidence came on their lap. They should

8 have collected it. That's what we're saying.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Is there any impediment to the Defence going to

10 this witness and, for their evidence, looking for exculpatory pictures.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: There is no impediment, Your Honour. However --

12 however -- in this instance. However, we have to keep in mind the

13 equality of arms. We don't have that resources, and that's why to say

14 this could go on with every single witness. That's not how the process

15 should work. It shouldn't be: Let the Defence then try to find this

16 witness and try to get from this witness that evidence. The evidence came

17 to them.

18 Let's just suppose for the sake of argument that we're talking not

19 about photographs but of documents, and then they chose to select certain

20 documents that was helpful to the case and not to select other documents

21 that might have been, might have been helpful to the Defence. Now we have

22 to track down this witness. We have to try to get the evidence from this

23 witness. Maybe the evidence isn't available. Maybe it's been destroyed.

24 The whole point is I'm not saying that we're prejudiced, but what I am

25 saying is that is not an excuse, to say we have no obligations to search

Page 14354

1 for. And I would love to hear Mr. Mundis's explanations for this because

2 I know he agrees with me on this. I know.

3 MR. MUNDIS: I hate to disappoint --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Mundis. I'm

5 going to give you the floor, but let me just say that, Mr. Karnavas, I

6 completely agree with you. However, simply with respect to the Defence,

7 Article 66 says that on demand the Prosecutor must produce for the Defence

8 documents, material, photographic material, and so on. So once you have

9 these photographs, you could have asked yourselves the question, Have I

10 been provided with all the photographs taken by this photographer? And

11 had you done that, you would have said, No. And I'm going to ask the

12 Prosecutor to give me all the photographs. So you have the possibility of

13 asking the Prosecutor to provide you with the photographs.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, with all due respect, Your Honour, it's not

15 always clear from reading a summary or from reading -- looking at the

16 exhibit list that we know that, you know, that there's more material out

17 there. I mean, that is -- we could say this with virtually every

18 witness. That's why we like to take them at their bona fides. That's why

19 I would like to think that they would not be doing a selection process

20 but, rather, they would collect all of it. And I fully understand the

21 issue of duplicity of and overburdening the Trial Chamber, but we're not

22 overburdened with having all that information come our way because we

23 think it might be helpful.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Mr. Mundis, and then we'll end the debate.

Page 14355

1 MR. MUNDIS: I appreciate that, Mr. President. Let's me just be

2 very brief and hit on a couple of issues that I think have been raised

3 that I think need to be responded to. First of all, this witness was

4 interviewed in 2004 and that statement was provided to the Defence. The

5 witness in paragraph 20 of his statement makes reference to having a large

6 photo documentation collection in his possession. So that goes to the

7 point raised by Judge Trechsel and by the Presiding Judge in terms of

8 access to this material.

9 But let me specifically respond to the comment by Mr. Karnavas

10 concerning archives and documents taken from archives as a good example,

11 in our respectful submission, of a point to the contrary of the one that

12 Mr. Karnavas was trying to make. Certainly there are archives available

13 to the parties in the former Yugoslavia that have tens of thousands if not

14 hundreds of thousands of pages of material available. There is simply no

15 way for us to seize entire archival collections totaling hundreds of

16 thousands of pages and disclosing all of that material or reviewing all of

17 that material for purposes of something that might be considered by some

18 Defence team or by some accused to be exculpatory. The nature of the

19 process, of the system in which we are functioning in is that it is a

20 party-driven system, and it's party-driven system whereby the parties

21 produce and look for and search for the evidence to support their cases.

22 The issues that have been arisen with respect to this witness and

23 the photographs and the possibility that there might be an exculpatory

24 photograph are all is subjects that can be dealt with, with the witness in

25 cross-examination. He can be asked about other photographs. That is

Page 14356

1 entirely up to the Defence if they wish to pursue that line of questioning

2 with the witness. But as we've indicated, there are indications in the

3 statement taken more than two years ago that the witness had had in his

4 possession photo documentation, and that photo documentation, the Defence

5 could have sought, they could requested, they could have contacted the

6 witness. They could have contacted the Prosecution. For this to now

7 arise at this point in the proceedings we would suggest is not reasons for

8 any grave concern by anyone in the courtroom.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Gillett, continue, please.


11 Q. Now, to get on to these photographs and the number that were

12 selected, do you recall, Mr. Malovic, how many photographs were

13 selected?

14 A. A hundred and ten.

15 Q. Now, in the interests of saving time and not having the witness go

16 through all 110 of these photographs in open court, but of course I am

17 prepared to do that should the Trial Chamber require it, I have shown the

18 witness all 110 of these photographs in proofing, and I can now ask him

19 whether -- when we went through that exercise today whether or not those

20 photographs were photographs that he took in order to verify the source of

21 these photos, and my intention was simply to show a sample of, I think

22 it's 29 photographs, and there are reasons that it is a slightly odd

23 number as there may be photographs on which it's helpful to the Trial

24 Chamber for the witness to give any further information that he may have.

25 If the Chamber is happy for the Prosecution to proceed in that

Page 14357

1 manner, than that is what I would propose to do at this stage with an

2 abridged bundle but with the objective of tendering the entire 110

3 documents through this witness.

4 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I would have no objection to that, and

5 I'm sure I speak for my learned friends.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Then ask him some

7 questions about a few of the photographs taken from -- you said 29. I

8 counted 30. I might be mistaken there.

9 MS. GILLETT: It could also be my maths, Your Honour, but thank

10 you.

11 Perhaps if the witness can be shown on the screen there front of

12 him in order that we can all see Exhibit 04588.

13 Q. What I propose, Witness, if you can take a look at the photographs

14 that will be appearing in front of you, and if you come to a photograph

15 that you wish to provide further information about, or, indeed, if you

16 note a photograph that does not relate to the 28th of August, 1993, I

17 would ask you to again give information as to what in particular it is

18 about the photograph, when it was taken, or where it was taken.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question

20 straight away, because while Ms. Gillett was talking I was looking at the

21 30 photographs, and I note the following: There are some photographs

22 which were apparently taken of people who were released, and we see that

23 they're in a poor physical state. We see that they're very thin. And

24 then there are other photographs of people who look quite well nourished,

25 and there are women and children.

Page 14358

1 Now, the first photograph that we see here that there are both

2 categories; that is that there are a group of individuals who seem to have

3 come out of detention and they're looking over the shoulders of the person

4 in the white shirt, but then there's some women and children, and the

5 woman has a scarf on her head. So is this a group photograph, and is the

6 group made up of two parts, one part people who were released from prison

7 and the other group of people who had come from their homes and taken to

8 this place? Am I wrong, or is that the -- what you saw on the spot?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. These were at

10 least two groups of persons. We see people who were released here on that

11 day, released from these prisons, and we can also see civilians there who

12 were told on that day or perhaps the day before that they had to leave

13 their homes and that they would be transported to territory under BH army

14 control.

15 Now, what we see here on this photograph up on our screens is the

16 head of the hydroelectric power plant at Grabovica, and it is the guard

17 hut, and at this particular point in time an announcement had been made to

18 the people who had been released and to the people who had been brought

19 there that food would be distributed -- or bread, rather, bread and

20 biscuits would be distributed. And they tried to introduce some law and

21 order there, but I think that on some of the next photographs you can see

22 that that was very difficult to do. But anyway, this particular

23 photograph illustrates just how many people there were at that point in

24 time in that location. Of course, during the day more people were brought

25 in by UNPROFOR and the number increased as the day progressed.

Page 14359


2 Q. If we could pass along to the next photograph, and again,

3 Mr. Malovic, if you could just indicate to stop at any point if there's

4 further information that you would wish to provide on particular

5 photographs that you're going to be shown.

6 A. This is a photograph of an inmate who had just been released.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, one sees on this body spots that one

8 cannot easily identify. Can you comment on those? There's one on the

9 right breast and on the lower arms, on the insides.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say anything with 100 per

11 cent certainty. All I know is that people who came out in this condition

12 said that while they had been imprisoned had been mistreated, beaten up,

13 and abused. Whether what we see on the photograph is a result of such

14 acts I can't say, but we see that these people were starved.

15 MS. GILLETT: If we can pass along to the next photograph, and in

16 fact keep passing through them unless I or the witness intervene, please.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may just note. If we

20 enlarge this photograph we had just seen, photograph number 2, it would be

21 clear that it was a tattoo.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I get that photograph back on

25 the screen? It may be a tattoo on the right side of his chest, but I

Page 14360

1 don't think that what we see on his right lower arm is a tattoo. I'm not

2 sure though.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait. We have another question

4 by a Judge.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] In your written statement you

6 mention two persons who died as a result of their physical conditions.

7 Did they die while you were on the spot? Did you also make photographs of

8 them?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I mentioned that in my

10 statement; however, that did not happen that day or there. But I heard

11 that one of the prisoners who had been released was in such a poor

12 condition that he simply did not survive. He succumbed a few days later.

13 But I did not see it, and I did not photograph it.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one clarification. On

15 several of the photos we see prisoners who were naked from the waist up.

16 Were they naked from the waist up because they were trying to display

17 their physical condition, or was it simply so hot that day?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was not extremely hot that

19 day. It was morning, and on some photographs we can see that some other

20 people were dressed a little more warmly. It is simply that I asked my

21 subjects to take off their clothes so that their condition would be more

22 obvious.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This person, I see that on --

24 that his T-shirt is in his hand. So you asked him to take off the T-shirt

25 to photograph him.

Page 14361

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I thought.


4 Q. Could we move to page 10 of this exhibit, please.

5 Now to page 13 of the same exhibit.

6 Page 28. Page --

7 A. On this photograph, if I may say something.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please give us your

9 comment.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We see a soldier of the Spanish

11 Battalion of the UNPROFOR helping civilians to get off the truck. The

12 photograph was taken on that same day, on the 28th of August, on the same

13 location which was the hydro power plant of Grabovica, again in the a.m.,

14 but it was taken in the tunnel that is right next to the dam. So it looks

15 like a night photograph. And in the background we see a sign -- the sign

16 of the United Nations on the tarpaulin of the truck. We also see a woman

17 who is holding two bags in her left hand, and there I must stress that a

18 large number of refugees came with very few possessions or without any

19 possessions at all, and I remember being told that they were allowed to

20 carry only one or two bags, to pick up just the barest necessities and get

21 ready to travel.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We see also two young children

23 in this photograph, between 3 and 5 years old, also naked from the waist

24 up, but in this case it wasn't you who asked them to take off their

25 clothes?

Page 14362

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, in this case I did not ask them.

2 But it may be that this truck arrived around 11.00, and you see that it is

3 a covered truck, and you can imagine in the beginning of the summer what

4 it was like to travel inside the truck. They must have been hot, feeling

5 hot and that's why they undressed.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.


8 Q. Moving now to page 33.

9 Page 38.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Just a minute. On

11 page 33, the person in white, do you know who he is? Because he's

12 apparently not an inmate.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who he is. I don't

14 recognise him. But you have to know that in those prisons, before

15 prisoners were released there were people who had spent there a month or

16 two, and there were others who had been brought just two days prior. So

17 there were people who -- whose condition was less poor than that of

18 others.


20 Q. Next photograph, page 38, please.

21 A. On this photograph we see a baby carried by her mother out of an

22 UNPROFOR APC. The photograph was taken the same day, the same location.

23 Q. Moving now to page 44.

24 A. I really have to say something about this one. This one was not

25 taken on the 28th of August; it was taken a couple of months later. I

Page 14363

1 can't tell you the exact time. We see that these refugees, whose story

2 was similar to the story of the refugees that I photographed on the 28th

3 of August, were brought by trucks of the International Red Cross. I can't

4 remember exactly where, but I know that they were brought to Jablanica and

5 that these people got off the truck in the town of Jablanica itself. I

6 think there are a couple of other photographs in the same group taken on

7 the same day.

8 Q. Moving to page 45.

9 A. This is one of the others. So this one was not taken on the 28th.

10 But on this photograph we see people who had arrived with few of their

11 possessions, and they were practically unloaded in Jablanica.

12 Q. Just to be clear about when this photograph was taken, was this

13 taken at the same time as the photograph that we saw on the previous

14 photograph, page 44, or was this at a different time?

15 A. Yes, yes. A couple of minutes before or later.

16 Q. Moving on to page 47.

17 A. This is one of the photographs taken on the 28th of August. On

18 this one we see an elderly woman with some of her possessions in her

19 hands, and we also see a canister of the kind distributed by the Spanish

20 Battalion of the UNPROFOR. They also distributed them to children. In

21 fact, they distributed such canisters to children, so I suppose this woman

22 had arrived in the company of a child.

23 Q. Through the interpretation I was hearing the word "canister." I'm

24 not completely sure what your mean when you refer to canister. At least

25 that's how it's coming through in the English translation. Perhaps it is

Page 14364

1 a translation issue.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Jerrycan? Would that be more understandable?


4 Q. We're referring to what you see looks like a balloon [Realtime

5 transcript read in error "battalion"] under the right arm of the witness.

6 Could it be a balloon?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's apology. It's the same word

8 for balloon and jerrycan.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is a balloon; it is not a

10 canister.


12 Q. Now, moving on to the photograph at page 48.

13 A. On this photograph we see again the fence of the hydro power plant

14 at Grabovica. In the background on the hill, which is on the other side

15 of the Neretva River, we see fires. Those fires, as I was told then on

16 the spot by the guard who was there at the hydro power plant, resulted

17 from fire being opened from HVO positions against ABH positions at

18 Dreznica. And the incendiary bullets that did not hit ABH but flew across

19 ended up there and caused fire. And those combat activities happened

20 looking from this position down the Neretva to the left.

21 Q. Moving on to page 49.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A little detail. On this photo

23 there seem to be two children with two balloons.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They are inflating them.


Page 14365

1 Q. Moving on, photograph 49 -- page 49, please.

2 A. On this photograph we see an exhausted man. In fact, a group of

3 people who are exhausted.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] There it is.

6 You say about this fire. How far were the hills with HVO

7 positions from Grabovica? How many kilometres is it from the hill to

8 Grabovica?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You could have asked that during

10 your cross-examination. Mr. Karnavas agrees.

11 So continue, Ms. Gillett.

12 You will come back to that during cross-examination.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't know what's happening to

14 microphones, this afternoon.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 MR. STEWART: I'm trying.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. STEWART: My pearls of wisdom, you can do without them for the

19 moment perhaps.

20 MS. GILLETT: Moving to page 50, please. And -- page 50,

21 please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this photograph we see UNPROFOR

23 soldiers helping a woman off the truck, and I believe that we can see on

24 this photograph that the woman is wearing traditional Muslim clothes, a

25 multicoloured scarf --

Page 14366


2 Q. On --

3 A. -- which is not typical of other ethnicities.

4 Q. On to page 51, please.

5 Page 55.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, when we see this photo

7 of a smiling boy, I in fact noticed several photographs of that kind,

8 including the next one. What was your impression when you saw those

9 civilians there? Did they look frightened, or did they look happy to be

10 there? What was the feeling they exude? Because if we look at this

11 photograph, we don't have the impression that they were victims of a great

12 misfortune. I'm talking of course only about the women and children, not

13 those who had been released from a prison. What was your feeling when you

14 saw those images? And the same could be said of the photograph that

15 follows.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can briefly comment on that.

17 All the people who had arrived, the women and the children, the grown-ups

18 were happy that they had finally reach the territory controlled by the

19 ABH, because they were sure that the maltreatment that they had been

20 subjected to while in their homes is now over. They felt safer.

21 MR. MURPHY: Your Honours, since Mr. Stewart's microphone was not

22 working but he was able to tell me his concern, Your Honour, it is a

23 matter which perhaps the transcript should be clarified. Back on page 97,

24 there was a very strange translation which came out in English as

25 battalion, which clearly was not the right word. I think it was the

Page 14367

1 translation of the word which originally had been translated as a canister

2 and it caused some confusion, and particularly in lines 23 and 24 on page

3 97 there's a strange sentence in the English translation, what looks like

4 a battalion under the right arm of the witness. Clearly the reference was

5 to a canister under the right arm of the woman. So perhaps that will help

6 in clarifying the appropriate word there.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, did we not -- not -- were we not told

8 instead of canister the word balloon should be used.

9 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, is it I think simply a typographical

10 error in the transcript, it seems.

11 MR. MURPHY: I think a jerrycan might be suggested at one point,

12 but clearly that might be something a little different. But I think Your

13 Honour's quite right. But it came out as "battalion," which caused a

14 certain confusion when it was translated back again.


16 Q. Passing on to --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's almost 7.00 p.m., everybody

18 is tired. So let us hold on for another 10 minutes.

19 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, unless the Bench have any particular

20 questions, I'm going to skip ahead -- skip some of the photographs so we

21 don't have to go through the rest of the bundle in its entirety if the

22 Chamber is in agreement.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it's the photograph you meant

24 to produced, it's the person who is wearing his underwear. I believe

25 that's 49. I think two photographs after the one we are looking at now.

Page 14368

1 MS. GILLETT: Yes. That comes at page 62 of this exhibit bundle.

2 If Your Honour has a question, it can certainly be shown.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Sir, did you ask this

4 person to take his trousers off? It was meant to show what?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked this group of people who

6 were standing at the entrance to the tunnel that one of them undress so

7 that I could show in which condition they arrived at this location. They

8 were embarrassed. They were embarrassed to be photographed. Some of them

9 openly protested, while this young man thought differently. He

10 volunteered. He said, "You can photograph me. I'm not afraid of

11 anything," and he started taking his clothes off.

12 This is the moment when he had taken his trousers off. He

13 remained in his underwear, and he started taking off his -- the little

14 chain he had around the neck.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Gillett, will you now try to

16 conclude your examination-in-chief within the remaining eight minutes.

17 MS. GILLETT: Absolutely, Your Honour.

18 Perhaps if the witness can be shown pages 103, 104, 105, 106, and

19 107. They can be shown one after the other, and I will ask the witness

20 afterwards if he is able to provide information on them. It's not a

21 problem if they're seen as a series.

22 Q. Now, Witness, having seen those photographs, when were those

23 photographs taken?

24 A. These photographs were not taken on the 28th. They were taken

25 several days later when -- in fact, they were taken in the area of

Page 14369

1 Grabovica, too, but not at the dam of the hydro power station but a couple

2 of kilometres down in the barracks that had been used for the personnel of

3 the hydro power station earlier.

4 I returned after the prisoners were released with Maggie O'Kane,

5 the reporter from the guardian whom I was assisting as an interpreter, and

6 the agreement, the understanding was that I would take some photographs to

7 a company for a story, and they were supposed to be send those photographs

8 to London, unsuccessfully, as I told you before. But these photographs

9 show the people who had been released from those prisons, but they were

10 taken several days after their release.

11 Q. Now, as to the remaining photographs both in this bundle and

12 amongst the 110 photographs that you looked at earlier today, are there

13 any other photographs of those remaining that we haven't seen that were

14 not taken on the 28th of August or are all those remaining from the date

15 of the 28th of August, 1993?

16 A. I think all these photographs were taken on the 28th of August

17 except for those that I indicated were taken at a different date.

18 Q. Witness, thank you very much.

19 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I have no further questions in

20 examination-in-chief for this witness.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one question from the

22 Bench.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Regarding -- regarding the very last picture in

24 this series of a man with a whitish beard sitting and one eye is bandaged,

25 do you have information about the reasons of the injury that prompted the

Page 14370

1 bandage?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot say. I don't

3 recall.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your testimony will continue

6 tomorrow, Witness. The Defence has one hour, and we are starting at 2.15

7 p.m. I believe the Bench has already asked most of their questions, and

8 we will have little to add tomorrow, although I don't know for sure. In

9 any case, your testimony will be over before the first break, I hope, and

10 then we are going to continue with another witness.

11 You are not going to meet any more with representatives of the OTP

12 because you have already taken the solemn declaration, and you may not

13 have contact with anyone at this point. I wish you a pleasant evening.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day

16 of February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.