Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16258

1 Monday, 26 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 [The Accused Pusic not present in court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

8 case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Registrar.

12 Let me greet the Prosecution bench. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

13 You appeared before us several weeks ago. My greetings to the Defence

14 counsel, to the accused. There is still one who is not totally recovered.

15 I hope he will be with us very soon.

16 Let me give the floor to Mr. Registrar for some IC numbers.

17 THE REGISTRAR: OTP has submitted a lot of documents to be

18 tendered through Ferida Likic; the list shall be given IC number 508.

19 Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. The --

21 we're going to he resume with the witness's cross-examination. With

22 regard to time allotted, at the time we had given 45 minutes for each of

23 the Defence teams for cross-examination purposes, all together 240

24 minutes. As to that -- as to the time used until now, 118 minutes, 47,

25 for 5D, 32 minutes for 1D, 21 for 2D, and 18 minutes for the 3D team.

Page 16259

1 Mr. Praljak, in other words. So you still have 122 minutes. Let me

2 remind you if you refer to incidents 8 and 14 of the report you'll have to

3 ask to move into private session since you would be dealing then with

4 protected witnesses.

5 This is all I had to say. I believe that it is now Mr. Praljak

6 who must continue with the cross-examination.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

11 [Continued]

12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. May I kindly ask you at the very

13 beginning since I'm going to deal with the technical aspect of your

14 expertise, trajectories, angles, speed, velocity of the bullet, entry and

15 exit wounds, I would appreciate it if your answers to it my technical

16 questions could be as short as possible. If the question is clearly

17 phrased, I would like your answer to be brief because I am under certain

18 time limitations, and we do have to cover quite a number of incidents.

19 Thank you very much in advance.

20 May I now kindly ask for 3D 00849. 3D 00849.

21 In your earlier testimony you said that you did not properly

22 inspect the house on Stotina from which there was a sniper shooting, in

23 your opinion because there were mines around, and I am therefore producing

24 a record on the removal of mines from the area around the building and

25 inside the building. It's 3D 00849. My question is, did you know that

Page 16260

1 that area was de-mined, according to all regulations, that it was handed

2 over, taken over as de-mined and that the de-mining enterprise was paid

3 for by the government of the Netherlands?

4 A. No, I was not.

5 Q. We still can't see the document -- oh, yes, it is here. I won't

6 go on about this. This document shows everything that is necessary to

7 prove that that area de-mined. The date is 9 September, 2004. But let us

8 move on.

9 You did not inquire in the proper place whether the -- this

10 location was de-mined or not, cleared for mines?

11 A. We inquired at the -- the field office in Sarajevo as to whether

12 the area -- there were dangerous areas still in the vicinity of Mostar.

13 Q. Thank you. I should now like to move to another incident,

14 documents 3D 00768. Again, 3D 00768. Give me just a second. Incident

15 number 9. It involves a boy of around 14 who was hit in Orucevica street,

16 Donja Mahala neighbourhood. You have drawn a sketch here and I would like

17 quickly to go through the technical aspects of this.

18 You say that the distance from Stotina was 470 metres; is that

19 correct?

20 A. That is the distance that I measured with the laser range finder,

21 yes.

22 Q. All right. Please, let us note the initial velocity of the

23 bullet. Do you agree that calibre 7.62 times 51 millimetre has the

24 initial velocity of 860 metres per second?

25 A. That depends on the rifle, but it would be just around the right

Page 16261

1 velocity.

2 Q. Do you agree that calibre 70 -- sorry, 7.9 times 57 millimetres in

3 an M-76 sniper rifle has the initial velocity of the bullet of 730 metres

4 per second?

5 A. I wouldn't be able to know that out of my head right now at this

6 time.

7 Q. All right. I read the information from the technical

8 specification attached, and that is verifiable.

9 My next question: The last time I showed you a table, an Eberhard

10 and Hinbert [phoen] table where the median velocity where running of a

11 14-year-old boy is 4 metres per second or thereabouts. Do you agree with

12 that?

13 A. I think that would be a fair conclusion.

14 Q. Can we further agree that the time the bullet takes from leaving

15 the barrel, and according to the speeds I've read, crosses the distance of

16 470 metres in .6 to .7 [Realtime transcript read in error,"2.7"] seconds?

17 A. That would be about the right time, yes.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a problem with

19 the record, line 15, page 4. The question was from .6 to .7 seconds,

20 whereas the record says .6 to 2.7. That needs to be corrected now.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now, Witness, could you please answer, if the boy appears on the

23 corner and crosses 2 metres in .5 seconds until the spot where he was hit,

24 so he crosses 2 metres in half a second, and the bullet takes .6 or .7

25 seconds until that same spot from the moment that it was ejected from the

Page 16262

1 barrel, how can these two bodies meet at the same spot at two different

2 times? We have a technical problem there. And the problem is the boy,

3 of .6 or .7 seconds would not be in that spot even if we set aside the

4 time necessary to locate a target, to aim at a target, and pull the

5 trigger.

6 A. It is indeed difficult to hit a target moving at that speed at

7 that distance, but it's -- with anticipation it is still possible. And if

8 I make a comparison to a shooting range where you have pop-up targets that

9 are operated radiographically or manually, they will get up, but if -- if

10 you've been on the shooter range for a longer time you would still be able

11 to -- you know the exact location where the target will appear, and if you

12 shoot the target it falls away, it will swing up again. If you start

13 shooting when the target is still down, the bullet will be there when the

14 target is coming up and hitting the target again. So it is possible with

15 anticipation, but it is difficult.

16 Q. Please, what does anticipation mean unless it is blind shooting?

17 According to my technical data, it means that somebody fired before having

18 seen the target. Is that correct?

19 A. In a way it is. Anticipation in this incident would be that the

20 shooter who might have been at the -- shooting location for a longer time

21 would have known -- would have seen people moving the same -- along the

22 same path time and time again, so he will know when someone looks around

23 the corner to see if it's clear and will then move. He will know that --

24 his target will move in that direction. So it's not a -- it's still a

25 very lucky shot to hit the target, but it's -- it's possible, and that's

Page 16263

1 what I mean with anticipation.

2 Q. Please, sir. We're talking about technical data here. The bullet

3 left the barrel and on the assumption that he had seen the boy, that the

4 shooters had seen the boy, the bullet would have reached that spot in .1

5 to .2 seconds?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Please tell me, how much time does a sniper need to locate a

8 target, to aim at it, and pull the trigger? How much time does that

9 require for a moving target?

10 A. Approximately one second.

11 Q. So 1 second and 6/10ths. So aiming at a non-existing target, the

12 shooter fired and the bullet and the boy met after the boy started

13 running.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. I would like to pull the next picture that deals with

16 the same problem. The same number, just the next sheet, please.

17 Please have a look. No, no, no. The next page, please. We've

18 seen this page. Next page, please. No, I mean my drawing, my drawing.

19 MR. KOVACIC: There was a misunderstanding. The previous one,

20 which was on ...

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. While this is being put on the screen, do you remember that the

23 boy sustained an entry and exit wound in the left side of his stomach, the

24 exit side being on the back, again on the left side of the boy's body, but

25 it was absolutely parallel. The entry and exit wound was absolutely

Page 16264

1 parallel to the ground level, and the boy was hit on the left side of his

2 stomach, and the exit wound is on the right side of his back in the

3 abdominal area.

4 Can we turn the page that shows this. The same exhibit number,

5 next page. I will use up too much time this way.

6 While this is -- no, no, not this one. Can we please put this

7 sheet on the ELMO.

8 Look at this photograph, the photograph clearly shows that it's

9 the left side of the stomach, and the -- there is a wound on the right

10 side of the boy's back. In fact, he is a young man now who appeared in

11 this courtroom earlier.

12 Do you agree that the entry wound is on the left side of the

13 stomach and the exit wound is on the left side of his back?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could we now see the drawing that I produced, the next page.

16 Could you please put it on the ELMO. No, no, the next one. Just turn

17 that page. No. Please take the sheet that I'm holding. We have seen it

18 before. I don't understand how it can't be produced again.

19 Please, Witness, look. Does this correctly depict the movement of

20 the boy from that corner forward? Is that correctly drawn?

21 A. That would be an assumption because he was moving from one corner

22 to the other, but he had to move around the fence that is in my drawing.

23 So he would be moving around it. So it wouldn't be a straight path but

24 just -- but -- it would be the direction that he was moving, yes?

25 Q. Okay. So it was not to -- completely straight line, but the

Page 16265

1 direction is shown directly, isn't it? It was at a right angle to the

2 trajectory of the bullet, if the bullet was coming from Stotina. Could we

3 agree that the bullet was coming from the right side as juxtaposed to the

4 movement of the boy?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it possible, and if it is possible, how, if the movement of the

7 boy was at a right angle to the trajectory of the bullet for the wound to

8 be on the left side of the stomach? According to the laws of physics and

9 geometry, is that possible?

10 A. If the boy was moving exactly without turning to that, then it

11 would be impossible, yes.

12 Q. Of course we can speculate that the boy may be stopped or turned,

13 but the boy was running, knowing that it was dangerous ground. He had

14 four metres to cover, and he did run those four metres. That's what he

15 testified. If that is correct, then it would be impossible for a bullet

16 coming from his right to inflict a wound on the left side of his stomach.

17 Can we agree on that?

18 A. It would be very unlikely.

19 Q. Could we now see 3D 00847. In particular, photograph 3D 23-0245.

20 3D 23-0245.

21 Witness, do you see on this photograph this boy, who is now a

22 young man, showing the exact spot of his exit wound? Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that the left side of his back?

25 A. It is.

Page 16266

1 Q. Thank you. In conclusion, can we agree that it is much more

2 likely, in fact it is the only likely possibility from all we know, that

3 the bullet came from the opposite direction and that only a bullet coming

4 from the opposite direction could have hit the boy, moving as he was, in

5 the left side of his stomach and exited on the same side through the back?

6 A. No, I am not of that opinion.

7 Q. You are not of the opinion that the boy was running towards the

8 bullet?

9 A. No. If the direction that the bullet originated from was exactly

10 the opposite side, it would be at the wall -- the shooter would have to be

11 against the wall three metres away from the victim, which seems to me very

12 unlikely. If you -- if you look at the -- my sketch, the layout of the --

13 of the incident site --

14 Q. On your sketch we clearly see that the street towards which he

15 wanted to run is a very open space and that at the moment he was hit he

16 had already cleared the wall. You don't agree with my proposition, or

17 maybe you agree that the bullet could have come only from the direction in

18 which the boy was moving, straight forward into that street. Yes or no?

19 We'll move on.

20 A. [Microphone not activated].

21 Thank you very much. Can we now move on to incident number 2.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, there is no answer recorded in the

23 transcript. I don't know whether there was any, but it should be recorded

24 in that case.

25 THE WITNESS: My answer was no.

Page 16267

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. That was not recorded.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we please have 3D 00765.

3 Q. This is incident number 2, which is at Gojka Vukovica Street. A

4 water tank truck was hit. Please have a look. At Gojka Vukovica Street

5 in front of two buildings, you drew the water tank truck as having been

6 parked in front of the second building, looking toward the north, and that

7 the bullet arrived from Stotina. Is that correct? Is this consistent

8 with your sketch?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. You calculated the coordinates at which this took place. My

11 question is as follows: According to you, the corner of the right-hand

12 building, the -- the building in its height, did it obstruct the view

13 towards Stotina? You did not take that corner of the street -- corner of

14 the building into account, but when you were visiting the site were you

15 able to see the place where the water tank truck was parked from Stotina?

16 A. No, I was not.

17 Q. Do you know that the witness testifying about this event drew the

18 water tank truck as having been marked more to the south, in front of the

19 first building, in fact?

20 A. The building that you mean -- described in your sketch with A? Is

21 that the first building?

22 Q. No. You drew the water tank truck in front of that building,

23 whereas the boy drew the water tank truck as having been parked in front

24 of the building I marked as B. Are you aware of the fact that you and the

25 witness had quite the opposite opinions as to where the water tank truck

Page 16268

1 was at the time?

2 A. No, I was not. I -- the information that I had and the exact spot

3 that was pointed out to me by the investigator on the scene was the

4 location that I drew in my sketch.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could we please turn to the second sheet

6 of the same document, my sketch.

7 Here. Have a look. The place where the boy marked the water tank

8 as having been parked is drawn in red, and we see your sketch of the water

9 tank as well. The difference in altitude between the water tank truck cab

10 and the point Z at Stotina, are you aware of it? Do you know what the

11 difference in altitude is between the water tank and the house at Stotina

12 from which, to your knowledge, the water tank was fired at? Do you know

13 the difference? Did you calculate it?

14 A. I only calculated the elevation from my location, of the location

15 that I had for the water truck. So I didn't have the difference in

16 altitude for the location where the boy said his -- the water truck was.

17 Q. Sir, could you please give me specific answers. My question is

18 quite specific.

19 Do you know the difference in altitude from -- between the place

20 where the water tank was and Stotina? Do you or do you not?

21 A. No, I do not.

22 Q. Thank you. Could we please pull up document 3D 00756 on our

23 screens. 3D 00756.

24 I will show you a host of photographs I asked to be taken at the

25 time when we were having a recess in the proceedings. This photograph was

Page 16269

1 taken from the point where the boy said the water tank truck was parked,

2 in front of the first building, facing Stotina. Can you see -- can one

3 observe Stotina from this spot?

4 A. No, I don't see Stotina on this photo.

5 Q. Do you agree with me that if we move the water tank truck back,

6 the building will obstruct the view of Stotina, which cannot be seen as it

7 is anyway, even more? Therefore, if we move to the spot where you said

8 where the water tank was, will we not obstruct the possible view of

9 Stotina even more?

10 A. No. It will be -- if the truck would be moving away, the angle

11 would be towards -- Stotina will be smaller, and therefore it would be

12 more likely for the target to be visible.

13 Q. Your answer was entered in the transcript, although it goes

14 against the elementary rules of geometry.

15 Let's have 3D 2205 -- or, rather, 0657. That's the next

16 photograph.

17 This photograph was taken from Stotina, from the forward left part

18 of it. Do you see the two buildings up front? No, this is 743. I would

19 like us to show 3D 22-0765, although we can stay with this one. 743, yes.

20 Look at this photograph. Do you see the two buildings in front of which

21 the water tank was parked as we see them? Can you in any way see a water

22 tank parked in front of the two buildings to our right as you are looking

23 at the spot now?

24 A. With respect, I don't see the area where the truck is supposed to

25 be. It's too -- is not enough detail to distinguish the buildings for me.

Page 16270

1 Q. You have cypress trees there, but I see you can't tell. Well, can

2 we have document 3D 00845. It will make the exercise somewhat easier. 3D

3 00845.

4 On that photograph you will see the building at Stotina -- or,

5 rather, the house that was constantly referred to as the place where the

6 sniper shooter was located. You see, I went my investigators out afield,

7 and I asked them to climb the ladder up to the window that could best be

8 used as the shooting position. Do you recognise the building?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Could we have this document bearing the same number and photograph

11 number 0235. 0235. From the position where the gentleman standing on the

12 ladder was, the camera faced the opposite side, i.e., the place where the

13 water tank was located. Can you recognise on this photograph behind the

14 Cyprus trees those two white buildings in front of which in are view water

15 tank that was hit was located?

16 A. I would just -- just one question, because you said just two

17 minutes ago that the photos were taken -- the first photo you shown was

18 from the left side of the building and this is from the right side of the

19 building. So this is -- these photos are taken from the right window on

20 the first floor.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Okay. I --

23 Q. This position is much more appropriate to achieve the hit, because

24 the more we move to the right the more the view is obstructed. And as we

25 move to the left we see the back side of the buildings. So I tried to

Page 16271

1 move to the right-hand side to see whether from the further-most

2 right-hand side window one could see the location or not.

3 Let's look at the photograph again. Do you recognise the

4 buildings?

5 A. I recognise the cypress trees and the buildings behind it, yes.

6 Q. Mr. Prlic tells me that the transcript contains an error. The

7 more we move to the left-hand side within the building at Stotina the less

8 likely are we to see the buildings on the right. Do you agree with me?

9 A. Yes, I agree.

10 Q. Could we look at photograph 236 now. My investigators took the

11 necessary steps, which was they took a tele-photo lens and tried to take

12 photographs zooming in the spot where the water tank should have been. Do

13 you recognise now behind the cypress trees the two buildings we've been

14 referring to?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Could we have photograph 238. 238. This is the photograph taken

17 with the use of the objective lens, and is it clear to you now, sir, that

18 if the water tank had been located in front of that building that was

19 further away it was quite unlikely for that spot to have been observable

20 from the Stotina building?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Praljak please repeat the last part of

22 his question.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. The water tank at the location where you placed it, would you have

25 seen it from this spot?

Page 16272

1 A. From the location that I took the photograph, which was also on

2 the right-hand side in front of the window in a direct line from the

3 window to the incident site, which produced the photo that I provided in

4 the report, which shows for me that the target would have -- of the water

5 truck would have been visible in front of the second building.

6 So from your pictures I would say it would be very difficult to

7 see the target from that location, but from my pictures that I took, it

8 would be very visible.

9 Q. Sir, please take a look at your photograph at page 12 of the

10 Croatian version. Look at your photograph, and please explain to me what

11 your photograph shows. It doesn't show either of the two buildings, nor

12 does anyone know what the photograph shows, which section of the street.

13 Your photograph does not show either of the two buildings, and it is quite

14 unclear as to what in fact you took the photograph of. Would you agree

15 with me?

16 A. No, I don't.

17 Q. Tell me, please, what did you take the photograph of? Which

18 section of the street? If we can't see the section in front of the

19 buildings where the water tank was located, what do we in fact see here?

20 A. As you -- as you've shown me -- shown to me a while ago the

21 cypress you see in the -- on the left corner of my photograph, it's the

22 same cypress that's visible on the right side of photo 0238, but my photo

23 shows more of the street, and it tries to show the exact incident site.

24 So the trees you see that fill the left side of the street are the trees

25 in front of the two buildings.

Page 16273

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Could we please be shown the picture the witness

2 has taken, because we do not have it on the screen.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] In the witness's material,

4 that's at page 12 of his report, in the Croatian version, that is.

5 MR. MUNDIS: For the record - sorry, Your Honour - it's P 09808.

6 P 09808 in the report. It's page 12 on the hard copy or page 13 in

7 e-court.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.

9 Q. Here is the photograph you took, sir. On this photograph, we

10 can't see the buildings in front of which, according to your knowledge or

11 the witness's knowledge, the water tank was located. Is that right?

12 A. That's -- that's true.

13 Q. How are we able to know what it is you wanted to show on this

14 photograph unless you also include in the photograph the place where the

15 water tank was parked? You obviously took the photograph of the front

16 part of the street where the water tank was not parked; is that right?

17 A. I took the photograph of the location from -- in front of the

18 house of Stotina toward the location where I -- where my information said

19 the water truck was located, which is shown by the arrow, case number 2.

20 Q. Very well. Can you please tell me where is the building on the

21 left-hand side which you drew in the earlier sketch? Where is it? In the

22 earlier sketch you drew the water tank in front of one building and there

23 is another one next to it, and here, quite arbitrarily, you showed the

24 spot where some other water tank was located but certainly not the one

25 from the earlier sketch; is that right?

Page 16274

1 A. No, that's not true. The buildings start to -- to appear in the

2 left-hand side just beyond the -- the cypress and more to the left. So

3 the buildings are not visible. What is visible is the garden that is

4 visible on -- that I've drawn into my sketch, which is marked by the trees

5 in the photograph. The reason why the buildings are not visible is

6 because I took the photo through a pair of binoculars, laser range

7 finders, which narrowed the field of view but give a very detailed picture

8 of the exact incident site.

9 Q. Sir, we disagree fully, because the buildings cannot be seen on

10 this photograph. They are to the far left. You can agree with me or not,

11 but I will tell you that the place that you drew on the sketch as the

12 place where the water tank was is certainly not depicted in this

13 photograph. Now, would you agree or disagree with me?

14 A. I disagree.

15 Q. Very well. Can we have 3D 00771. 3D 00771. This refers to two

16 incidents, namely incident number 8 and 14. These two incidents -- yes,

17 sorry.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You only deal with technical

19 details. There's no need for a private session otherwise.

20 Yes, Mr. Mundis?

21 MR. MUNDIS: I was just making the same point, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

23 So, Mr. Praljak, please continue.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will be

25 dealing with technical matters from the expertise alone. I simply want to

Page 16275

1 show the way in which the expertise was done.

2 Q. These two events or incidents took at Brace Brkica Street, could

3 we please see 3D 00771.

4 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry to interrupt, but this document hasn't

5 been released in e-court. If it could be released, then ...

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Give me a moment, please.

7 3D -- very well. Let's look at page 34.

8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] According to my information, 3D 771

9 is something that should be in e-court, but you can place it on the ELMO.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No, no. This is not it.

11 This is not it. I will give you my copy, please. Perhaps I made a

12 mistake. Who knows. Perhaps we can deal with 3D 771 later. I made a

13 mistake there.

14 Q. Sir, there were two incidents that took place there at the

15 sidewalk next to the intersection between Marsala Tita and Brace Brkica

16 Streets; is that right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Do you agree with the way the incidents were marked, because one

19 took place in the vicinity of the other.

20 A. Yes, I agree.

21 Q. Very well. Can we please have 3D 00844 shown. And then

22 photograph 3D 23-0206. 0206. 3D 00844, photograph 0206.

23 Do you know that what we see in the foreground is Brace Brkica

24 Street, and the street running parallel to the brown building is Marsala

25 Tita Street?

Page 16276

1 A. Yes, I know.

2 Q. Can we please have the next photograph, 207. 207. Is this the

3 spot where the two incidents took place on the sidewalk right here?

4 A. Well, it didn't look exactly same location, but it was in the

5 vicinity of this location, yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us in what vicinity -- what was the vicinity of the

7 two incidents? Can you draw and mark on this map where the two incidents

8 took place? If you're not able to, we can move on. We've already dealt

9 with this. We don't have to go back to it. If you know, fine. If you

10 don't, fine again.

11 A. I would need a different photograph.

12 Q. Can we please have photograph 209 -- or, rather, sorry, 208, 208.

13 To your knowledge, was this photograph taken exactly from the spot

14 where the incident took place?

15 A. This would be the exact location of incident 14.

16 Q. Thank you. Could we now have photograph 211.

17 From this same spot a number of photographs were taken with an

18 objective lens toward the direction where the two men were hit at

19 different times. Is that the same photograph depicting the scene of the

20 incident?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could we have photograph 212, and could 213 be prepared. 212.

23 Sir, can you see Hotel Bristol here?

24 A. Yes, I can.

25 Q. Can you see -- we've already discussed under whose control Hotel

Page 16277

1 Bristol was, but do you see a single spot from which -- I mean, any spot

2 under the control of the Croatian Defence Council, from which it was

3 possible to shoot at a spot where two persons were hit? Do you see a

4 single building controlled by the HVO at the time of the conflict in

5 Mostar that provides the possibility for shooting at the spot where two

6 persons were hit? Yes or no? Or maybe you don't know.

7 A. I don't know, yes.

8 Q. All right. Photograph 213, even closer up. 213.

9 Have a look. Do you know that all the buildings we see here were

10 under the control of the BH army at the time of the conflicts in Mostar?

11 If you don't know, that's good enough.

12 A. I don't know. I didn't know.

13 Q. Can we now please have photograph 214. It's a whole series of

14 photographs that I had made from the Spanish Square and possible shooting

15 from the Spanish Square from the crowns of trees or maybe from a platform

16 or a ladder, or a platform provided by a truck. Do you recognise this

17 spot? We see a high school there and the Bulevar.

18 A. I recognise the Spanish Square, yes.

19 Q. Do you know that the left side of that photograph is an area held

20 by the BH army at the time of the conflicts? You see those devastated

21 buildings, that side.

22 A. I do know.

23 Q. Now the next photograph would be 215. They were taken

24 anti-clockwise. The next one is 215. So we are moving towards the

25 location of the incident, the possible incident, and this is a street

Page 16278

1 leading towards Marsal Tito bridge. Do you recognise it? Do you know it

2 was under BH army control?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. 216, please. Do you recognise this area? It's the street leading

5 towards Marsal Tito bridge and further on to the area where the incidents

6 took place. Is it possible to see the location of the incident in any way

7 from here?

8 A. From that exact location, no, it's not possible.

9 Q. To speed up things a little we'll skip a number of photographs,

10 but they can stay on file. Let's move on to 221.

11 This photograph faces west. It's taken from the same spot as the

12 ones before. The area controlled by the HVO. Do you recognise that it is

13 the Spanish Square and that the camera is facing west?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Photograph 221, please, now -- sorry, 222. This photograph will

16 again show part of the high school, the camera facing west, and we see a

17 long alley of trees in Mostar from a place where you concluded there could

18 have been a platform providing a good view for shooting. Do you recognise

19 the area?

20 A. I recognise the area, but this is not the area that I indicated as

21 the origin of fire. The area that I indicated was in 3D 23-0220 and 0221.

22 Q. We'll get to that. Photograph 223, please. And could 224 be on

23 stand-by, please.

24 On photograph 223, since you mentioned in your testimony the

25 crowns of trees where the shooter could have been, I placed my man on top

Page 16279

1 of a ladder. Do you see the man on the ladder?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Next photograph, please. It was taken from the spot where the man

4 atop a ladder was. Photograph 224, facing east. Does the photograph show

5 abundantly clearly that this spot where the plain trees were does not

6 provide a view of the site of the incidents at all?

7 A. No, this location doesn't provide a -- a view of the incident

8 site.

9 Q. Thank you. Photograph 225, please, which is only closer up, the

10 same thing. Is it even more clear here that from that spot it was

11 impossible to shoot towards the incident site?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Photograph 227, please. 227. I placed my man next on a very tall

14 ladder, and the location is now such that the Spanish Square is on the

15 right. Do you see the man on the ladder?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. From that spot a number of photographs were taken. 228, please,

18 then 229. A whole series of photographs, and they all face the incident

19 site. The purpose was to see if the incident site was visible even from a

20 platform, from an elevated position, even if we set aside the fact that

21 the war was going on at the time and there was the front line between the

22 two warring factions in the middle.

23 Is it possible to shoot at Brace Brkica Street from here?

24 A. From this location it's not possible.

25 Q. Next photograph, please, closer up, 230. Do you see that it's

Page 16280

1 simply impossible to see the incident site because the street is a

2 meandering one?

3 A. From the location that this photo was taken it is impossible to

4 see the location of the incident.

5 Q. Thank you. Photograph 232, please. The cameraman had the task to

6 establish whether it was possible to see the incident site from any spot

7 at all, the Spanish Square or anywhere else, so he kept moving further to

8 the right. Do you see the man?

9 A. I see the man on the ladder.

10 Q. The last photograph, 233. Do you see that even from this location

11 we do not have a view of the incident site?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Since we had certain witness statements, can you agree with what

14 I'm going to say now: There was not a single location under HVO control

15 that made it possible to shoot at the incident site in Brace Brkica

16 Street, 1814 [as interpreted]? Not a single spot provided a view of the

17 man at incident site number 8 or number 14?

18 A. I don't agree.

19 Q. So that the sniper would be in any spot located in a site under

20 HVO control? Why don't you agree? Where in that case, according to you,

21 was the sniper located?

22 A. As I've mentioned in the report, the photo that I took of the

23 incident site where the -- the red building, or the red-brown building, is

24 clearly visible with the markings 1904, that building is clearly visible

25 in my picture, and I haven't seen it -- I've only seen the top half

Page 16281

1 visible in some of the pictures provide by you.

2 I took the photograph from the platform in the direction of Brace

3 Brkica Street towards the incident site, and in my photograph it is

4 possible to get a view of the incident sites, especially if you're go on a

5 slightly higher level.

6 Q. Let's look at your photo on page 26 of the Croatian version of

7 your report. Look at it. I'm not saying from where you can see a certain

8 building. I'm asking you to show me the exact spot in which in your

9 opinion the sniper shooter was looking at the man located in the way we

10 have heard they were located in incident number 8 or 14. Look at your own

11 photograph. In my personal view, it shows absolutely nothing. It's on

12 page 26 of the report, the Croatian version. It's not the one, but again

13 that's the photograph you took.

14 Next photograph. Raise it a bit. Further up, please.

15 Now, tell me, what do we see on this photograph? Do we see the

16 spot where two men were hit?

17 A. As I've said before, it's -- it shows all the surroundings of the

18 exact incident site, but I wasn't able -- at that time I wasn't able to go

19 to a more elevated position. My photo was taken from above approximately

20 two metres of height. If I would be at a position two metres higher, I

21 would get a clear view of the incident site.

22 Q. I'm not asking you, sir, what you were able to do. I'm asking you

23 if we can see on this photograph the spot where people were hit. Can you

24 tell me from which exact location you photographed this?

25 I put it to you that you were not able to photograph this from

Page 16282

1 Spanish Square, number one; and number two, I put it to you that this

2 photograph does not show the spot where the people were hit.

3 A. This photograph is taken from exactly the same position that is

4 shown in the picture of page 39 of my copy, the other photo that's

5 included, some two pages. It's with both cases. That is 20 -- 25 and 39.

6 It's the same picture. That is the exact location from where I took the

7 picture towards the incidents sites. The man behind the -- the laser

8 range finder is the investigator on scene. And the concrete structure you

9 see behind this, the one that's also visible in the pictures you provided.

10 Q. But, sir, the building on the left, the left building that we see,

11 and the Judges will make the comparison, does not depict the left building

12 on the corner of Marsala Tita and Brace Brkica Street. This

13 secessionistic style of architecture or whatever it is doesn't have

14 anything to do with the corner of Brace Brkica Street that is relevant.

15 Do you claim that what you photographed is the corner of Marsala

16 Tita street and Brace Brkica Street? Is that the corner?

17 A. The location where the arrow is pointing, that's an exact

18 location. The old building on the left-hand side it's the same building

19 as the old building in 3D 23-0211, the old building with the shed in front

20 and the roof of the -- angled roof of the shed is also visible in my

21 picture.

22 Q. All right. I will leave it to the Trial Chamber to analyse and

23 compare, but my assertion is that the building we see on the left here is

24 not the building on that corner.

25 I have one more matter for you.

Page 16283

1 Can you please place this on the ELMO. Meanwhile, can we have 3D

2 00771 ready, and we'll deal with this one very briefly.

3 With incident number 2, you calculated east as 17 degrees, 49

4 minutes, and 9.-something seconds, whereas incident 3 is 17 degrees, 98

5 minutes and .2 seconds.

6 I did some reckoning myself. Do you agree that 1 minute has 60

7 seconds in sphere geometry, and 1 degree is 60 minutes?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Is it true that the equator is about 40.000 kilometres long, which

10 means a half of the equator is 20.000 kilometres? And when we divide it

11 into 180 degrees, which is the amount we have from Greenwich towards the

12 east, it turns out that 1 degree is approximately 100 kilometres. Do you

13 agree with that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. And if 100 kilometres are divided into 60 minutes, then it's --

16 then 1 minute is approximately 1.7 kilometres.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it then correct that if an incident has 49 minutes and another

19 98 minutes - could we scroll down a bit? - that the difference is around

20 15 minutes, and 15 minutes multiplied by 1.7 kilometres is around 75 -- 85

21 kilometres, the difference between two incident sites? Is my arithmetics

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'm asking you, how could you have made such a major error if the

25 incidents were 85 kilometres away from one another? How can an expert

Page 16284

1 make such a major error in view of the distance from Greenwich?

2 A. It's a writing error.

3 Q. But the GPS system you used, do you know what the standard margin

4 of error it has in --

5 JUDGE PRANDLER: I'm sorry, very sorry. We haven't received the

6 answer from the witness previously, so be so kind to repeat it again to

7 the -- I mean, your answer to the previous question. Actually, it is by

8 Mr. Praljak. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: I understand. It was probably a writing error.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] For the record, Your Honour, page

11 26, line 23, you still have it on your screens, it says the distance --

12 the difference is 15 minutes, whereas in fact Mr. Praljak's question

13 referred to 5-0, 50 minutes' difference.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. My next question, Witness, is this: Before measuring by GPS, did

16 you know what is the standard margin of error for your device?

17 A. The standard margin of error for my personal GPS is five metres.

18 Q. You think. Do you know or do you think?

19 A. I know.

20 Q. How long ahead of your measuring did you check the GPS device when

21 you calibrated it or standardised it?

22 A. Well, the GPS -- the GPS coordinates were provided me by the

23 Prosecutors. I didn't always use my GPS to measure the exact location.

24 Some were -- some were -- I took as GPS and some were pointed out to me by

25 the investigator on scene, according to the DVD.

Page 16285

1 Q. Thank you. Can we have 3D 00 --

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have a break.

4 The time has come for a break. It's 20 to 4.00. We will resume at 4.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. We can start again. As

8 far as time is concern, I was told that there's -- Defence still has 42

9 minutes, but I've understood that 4D needed 10 minutes, and 6D, I don't

10 know. So, Mr. Praljak, you know exactly what you need to know now.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

12 sorry that we're unable to go through all these incidents properly, but I

13 will go as far as I can.

14 Can we look at incident 1, 3D 00771?

15 Q. Here we have a man who was hit from the distance of 760 metres in

16 his leg according to this sketch. Sir, do you see the sketch?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. The spot where the man was hit in his leg in relation to the

19 direction of the bullet was at the alpha angle, which is roughly 45

20 degrees, wasn't it?

21 A. I wasn't able to conclude that from my information.

22 Q. Could we turn to the next page, please. We will see the

23 photograph where the witness told us -- and this is the photograph from

24 the same bundle. Look at the anatomy of a person from the back, as the

25 witness shows us how he was hit while he was standing next to the wall.

Page 16286

1 He was hit in the back above the knee. That was where the entry wound

2 was. And the exit wound was at the parallel -- or, rather, was at the

3 parallel height, and it exited just above the knee. Is that right, sir?

4 A. If that's the information supplied by the witness, I suppose it's

5 right.

6 Q. Although you didn't answer my question. My question was did you

7 have any documentation as to the entry wound and exit wound?

8 A. The only documentation to me was the information on the DVD where

9 the victim shows his -- the location of his wounds.

10 Q. Very well. Can we turn to the next sheet. At what angle would

11 the entry/exit wound have been if we assume that the shot was fired from

12 Stotina? Do you know what the difference in altitude is between the spot

13 where the sniper shooter might have been active and the spot where the

14 victim was? What -- or where the person hit was. What's the difference

15 in altitude?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at some photographs from 3D 00846.

18 Photograph 240.

19 Are you familiar with this reconstruction put forth by the person

20 who was hit? He said, "I stood thus, leaning against the wall when the

21 bullet hit me above the knee of my right leg."

22 Are you familiar with this?

23 A. These are stills from the DVD. I recognise them.

24 Q. Yes. How can you explain then that the entry/exit wound does not

25 correspond with the angle which should have been shot at had the shooter

Page 16287

1 been in fact at Stotina? How do you account for the fact that the

2 entry/exit wound is parallel, whereas Stotina is on much higher ground?

3 Can you answer briefly, please?

4 A. I wouldn't be able to confirm that.

5 Q. My next question: If the position of this man, which is quite

6 clear from the sketch, is that he faced the Neretva with his back and

7 Stotina stands at exactly 45 degrees' angle in relation to his position,

8 how could he have been shot from the back then and not at a 45-degree

9 angle, which would mean more to the side? How can you account for the

10 bullet trajectory and the positioning of the entry and exit wounds?

11 A. I came to the conclusion that Stotina was the most likely origin

12 of fire not only based on -- not -- solely based on the images from the

13 DVD, and for him the incident was also a long time ago, so I don't know if

14 it's exactly precisely the same position he was in. But looking at this

15 still from the DVD, if he had been positioned like this and the -- the

16 bullet of the entry and exit wound would have been of -- since they were

17 completely parallel, they shooter would have to be in the river, because

18 he's pointing with his thigh slightly upwards. So then -- yeah. So it's

19 very difficult to get an exact location from the shooter from only his

20 entry and exit wounds.

21 Q. Thank you. On the basis of the position of the body, would you

22 agree with me the bullet could have reached him from his back, which means

23 from possibly the river or the hillside beyond it? Is that right?

24 A. The direction physically where the bullet might have originated

25 from could include that direction, yes.

Page 16288

1 Q. Could we please have 3D 00769. 3D 00769. That's incident number

2 10, yet again involving Stotina. 3D 00769.

3 You drew the possible line of movement according to the witness's

4 testimony in the direction of the stair -- of the stairs. Is your sketch

5 accurate?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Again, Stotina is located at an angle higher than 45 degrees in

8 relation to the direction in which the person who was hit was moving. Is

9 that correct based on your sketch of the bullet trajectory?

10 A. This is the elevation you talk about?

11 Q. No, no. It's on the right side. If the aggrieved person is

12 moving from the Neretva, as you drew it, the direction in which Stotina

13 lies, again according to your sketch, is at some 45 degrees. That's what

14 I'm asking you. In relation to the person moving.

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Thank you. We have seen this, and I will show it to you on the

17 photograph, that the bullet hit him in the heel in the general area of

18 where the Achilles tendon is, and it exited just where the heel is. So

19 it -- the bullet entered the body at roughly 45 degrees compared to the

20 axis of the leg. It entered roughly the area where the Achilles tendon

21 is - you can see it on my sketch - at a 45-degree angle compared to the

22 axis of the human body. Is that right?

23 A. That is right.

24 Q. If the bullet entered the Achilles tendon and exited at the heel

25 parallelly, then it did not arrive from either the right or left side.

Page 16289

1 Can we conclude that the position in which the person was -- can we show

2 photograph 3D 00848, photograph number 251. 3D 00848, photograph 21 --

3 251.

4 Do you agree that the person showed exactly the position in which

5 his body was when he was hit or right before he was hit? Do you see that?

6 Is that visible?

7 A. That is visible.

8 Q. Is he turned with his back to the Neretva River?

9 A. Yes, he is.

10 Q. Is his side turned towards Stotina, that we might possibly see in

11 the background laterally at an angle of 70 degrees? Is that right?

12 A. That's about right, yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Could we please have photograph 253 from the

14 same bundle.

15 Look at the entry wound, which is almost from the top, and it is

16 true that it -- the bullet did not arrive from the side but that the entry

17 wound was made from a very high degree and exited at the heel almost

18 vertically.

19 A. I didn't draw the conclusion that this was the entry wound. I

20 don't know if it's in the medical reports. I wasn't able to locate it in

21 the medical reports. What I do know is that with the limbs especially in

22 the areas where there's -- there are bones, it's very difficult to discern

23 between the entry and exit wound.

24 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the witness confirmed for us here

25 explicitly that this was the entry wound and that the exit wound was at

Page 16290

1 the heel below?

2 A. But I believe this is also the witness that -- that testified that

3 he was hit by a 50-calibre round, which -- which would have taken his foot

4 off. So if the witness believes that was the entry and the exit wound,

5 then according to him it is.

6 Q. My last question concerning this: Is it in any way possible to

7 have a wound inflicted at an angle of 70 degrees vertically to the body if

8 Stotina is positioned to the right at some 40 to 50 metres high -- or

9 rather, at an elevation of some 40 to 50 metres? Is that theoretically

10 possible?

11 A. Under the conditions that you described it would be impossible.

12 Q. Thank you very much.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] There is another explanation

14 of this, Your Honour, another sketch of mine which shows the possible

15 trajectory of the bullet and the movement of the person, but unfortunately

16 the time that I have left does not permit me to deal with it so we will

17 move on. We can remain in open session because I will be dealing with

18 technical matters only.

19 Can we now have incident number 13 where a boy was hit? Can we

20 have the first photograph placed, 3D 00843, photograph 202?

21 Q. Witness, are you aware of the fact that the place where this

22 incidence took place was accurately marked?

23 A. It is slightly different from the location that I marked on my

24 sketch, but it's the approximate location, yes.

25 Q. Do you see marked here two possible directions from which one

Page 16291

1 could possibly shoot at the place where the boy stood?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Are you aware that according to a witness's statement the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina sometimes held their forward positions here, if ever

5 there was soldiers in here? But are you aware of this information?

6 A. No, I'm not.

7 Q. If you were a soldier and were confronted with an army close by,

8 would you come down the hill and open sniper fire? Would that not amount

9 to an exaggerated exposure beyond any logic?

10 A. It would be tactically [Realtime transcript read in

11 error"technically"] very unwise to expose yourself in the open on the

12 hill.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 A. Excuse me. It's not "technically," but "tactically." Line ...

15 Q. Of course, tactically.

16 Could we now have photograph 3D 204.

17 This photograph was taken from Stotina. Can you please flip it.

18 Yes.

19 Look at the large building over there, and then to the left of

20 that high building you can see the building outside which this took place.

21 I don't know if you recognise this. To the left of this largest building

22 here is the building in front of which the incident took place.

23 Therefore, from the positions at Stotina where you said the sniper

24 shooter was located, is it possible to see the scene of the incident on

25 this photograph?

Page 16292

1 A. On this photograph it's impossible because the tan-coloured

2 building was built after the incident, which now blocks the view.

3 Q. There was another building that was built, and the roof of that

4 building is facing quite a different direction. Could we have photograph

5 205, please. It will provide a clearer view. 205.

6 Sir, do you recognise the building in front of which this took

7 place by the balconies that we can see to the left here? Can we agree

8 that this was indeed the building in front of which the boy was hit?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. The building we see in the foreground with the brown roof, do you

11 know that the building was there at the time of the incident? In other

12 words, this is not the building that was built afterwards. Are you aware

13 that this building was there at the time of the incident?

14 A. The investigator on scene pointed out to me that the brown

15 building was built after the incident, so that's my information.

16 Q. I believe you, but on the basis of the earlier photographs do you

17 understand that the building that I was referring now and the other

18 building were not one and the same building? Are you aware of this?

19 A. Could you clarify that, please?

20 Q. The building on the right side, its roof is -- is going to the

21 right, whereas the other building we saw on the other photograph had a

22 roof that was turned differently. Are you aware of the fact that the

23 building I was referring to earlier in that other photograph and this

24 brigade here are not and the same?

25 A. Could you show me a picture of the other building, please?

Page 16293

1 Q. Yes. Can we go back to photograph 3D 202. Look at the roof here.

2 There, 202. The roof-top we saw a moment ago is positioned perpendicular

3 to this building, whereas the building marked B here is parallel -- or,

4 rather, the ridge is parallel to the building. So my question is, are you

5 aware of the fact this building marked B here and the building I showed

6 awe moment ago are not one the same building?

7 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. And you're not aware of the fact that the

9 building we saw a moment ago at the other photograph existed get at the

10 time of the incident? Are you aware of this or not?

11 A. I'm not aware.

12 Q. I know that my time is up, but I have only one incident left, not

13 that I wouldn't want to go through all of them, but I don't have time.

14 Could we have 3D 00850, please. We are still talking about number 13, in

15 respect of which you established that the alleged position from which fire

16 was opened was the -- was Mount Hum that was 300 metres away.

17 At page 34 of the report it says that the possible position was

18 Mountain Hum which was 800 metres, correction, away from the spot. Is

19 this something you wrote?

20 A. This is something I wrote, yes.

21 Q. Could we please have the map enlarged. That's fine.

22 A circle was drawn on this map, and the centre of that circle is

23 the top of the Hum mount, and everything that is within that circle is up

24 to 2.000 metres away from Mount Hum. Can you locate where approximately

25 the house where the incident took place is? Can you tell roughly?

Page 16294

1 A. If I could have the map enlarged.

2 Q. Can it be enlarged, please?

3 Mount Hum. Do you see this parallel running through Mount Hum,

4 and then across the Neretva there is a bridge, and then it says Luka up

5 there. Do you see the word Luka?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. These buildings are in fact located in an area called Luka to the

8 left of the rectangle marked in black and then a bit up to the left. Do

9 you see that now, near that road there? It's -- you should actually start

10 from Mount Hum. Can you tell roughly where this would be?

11 A. The house would be going from the -- the intersection --

12 Q. Can you show it to us? Can you indicate?

13 A. How do I indicate on this map?

14 Q. Look at the bridge across the Neretva River. We've seen it on

15 many photographs. And then cross that bridge across the Neretva. There.

16 Right.

17 A. That would be the location of the building.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Tell me, please, if the distance from the

19 top of the Mount Hum to that red dot is 2.000 metres, how far is the top

20 of Mount Hum to -- or, rather, if the previous distance to the circle was

21 2.000, how far would you say is Mount Hum to the dot you drew? Is it

22 1.400 to 1.500 metres?

23 A. I think there has been a mistake, because one square on a

24 geographical map is usually depicted -- this is 1:50.000 scale, which

25 means that every square is 1 kilometres, and the diameter of the complete

Page 16295

1 circle is 2 kilometres. So the distance from Mount Hum to the location

2 would be 6 to 800 metres on this map.

3 This location on the map is 1 kilometre, this distance.

4 Q. I cannot bring any rulers here, but -- right. Right. There is an

5 error. Correct. It's 1 kilometre. This is a mistake.

6 So the diameter is 2 kilometres, and half of it is 1 kilometre,

7 but let us leave it at that.

8 What is the distance from the top of Hum hill to the point you

9 marked, 800 -- right. It's written correctly. My apologies. My

10 apologies. It's a mistake that I made.

11 Just one last thing, please. Is it true that from the top of Hum

12 hill, since there is first a mild slope, then a sharper slope, the

13 position where the boy was hit is completely invisible. From Hum hill you

14 cannot see the incident site and vice versa. Do you know that?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you for all these answers. I'm sorry

17 that I have no more time to go through the other incidents so as to see if

18 they make sense geometrically and otherwise, but two days was too short a

19 time for you to arrive at absolutely accurate and precise data. Do you

20 agree with me?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. 4D now.

24 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just have

25 one technical matter to raise in connection with what Mr. -- General

Page 16296

1 Praljak said. This map is 1:50.000 in scale, and the distance is 4

2 centimetres on the map. So that should be 2 kilometres. It is a good map

3 indeed, because in principle between two measurements, from 96 to 98,

4 there are 2 kilometres. This distance is equal to the distance from Hum

5 hill. I claim that there are 4 centimetres here and that makes 2

6 kilometres on this map. I just want my objection on record and then we

7 can leave it to experts.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes. The fact remains it is

9 2 kilometres. So the distance from the top of Hum hill to the location of

10 the house is 1.500 to 1.600 metres. Thank you.

11 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:

13 Q. Mr. van der Weijden, if you have precise information about an

14 entry and exit wound and you also have precise information about where the

15 victim was standing and at what angle at the point of impact, it's

16 correct, is it, that you can within really quite a fine tolerance, you can

17 state with precision the direction from which the shot must have come?

18 A. If the precise position and placement of the body is known, then

19 it is possible to get a reasonably accurate direction of fire, yes.

20 Q. You need those elements --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That I've described. You need entry and exit wound or at least

23 entry wound precision, position and angle of body --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- and then you can get --

Page 16297

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- with pretty good precision?

3 A. Exact position of the body at the time of the entry wound.

4 Q. And the other way round. If you start with a fixed, definite

5 location or direction, let's say direction from which the shot has come,

6 and you also have precise information about, let us say, the entry and the

7 exit wound, you can also work out, with a high degree of precision, the

8 angle at which the victim's body must have been standing at the point of

9 impact?

10 A. That would have been possible, yes.

11 Q. In the first situation, then, where we're working from the

12 victim's body position and the wounds, but we're work being from the

13 victim's body position, let's take as examples incidence 1 and incidence

14 10, and you've shown --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You've shown enormous familiarity with those incidents. Your know

17 exactly the once I'm talking about. 1 near the bridge and 10 from the

18 river, fetching water at the river. So they're both down by the river.

19 And we can agree, can't we that a feature of each of those cases is that

20 until we get to such questions as to the precise position of the victim's

21 body there is actually a wide range of possibilities, isn't there, as far

22 as location of the gunman is concerned?

23 A. Well, actually it's not that wide a range of possibilities. There

24 are things in -- yeah, to be taken in consideration technically. While

25 technically it would be possible for a wider range of possibilities, if I

Page 16298

1 would have to -- if I would have to take a shot at a target and I would

2 have to stand out -- completely out in the open, that -- technically it

3 would be possible for me to stand in that position and shoot at the target

4 and hit the target, but technically it would be very unwise. So it's --

5 Q. I want to be quite precise. I'm not talking at the moment about

6 preferred locations and where a professional sniper might locate himself

7 and all the other factors which you bring into play here and there to

8 explain why such-and-such a location is more probable. In each of those

9 cases there is, in fact -- physically there is a quite wide arc, isn't

10 there?

11 A. Yes, there is.

12 Q. So that it follows that -- it follows just mathematically or

13 arithmetically, doesn't it, if the victim's body is turned through an

14 angle of 15 degrees that alters the direction of the shot by the

15 corresponding 15 degrees?

16 A. Yes, it does.

17 Q. Working the other way round quite a lot of people working in this

18 matter as informants did, if we start from a fixed idea of where the shot

19 came from and you have the other elements of the information, you've got

20 the entry and the exit wound, then - I think you confirmed this a few

21 minutes ago - you can then work out the angle at which the victim's body

22 must have been placed to suffer that wound from that specific location?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in a significant number of cases where there is a very clear

25 entry and exit wound, or perhaps even a very clear entry wound, it doesn't

Page 16299

1 actually require, with all respect to your expertise, Mr. van der Weijden,

2 it doesn't require a degree of expertise to work that out, does it?

3 A. For the technical part, no. As long as we have knowledge of

4 geometry it could be worked out, yes.

5 Q. It's pretty straightforward?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If I've been shot it doesn't matter particularly for the record

8 where to make the point, if I've been shot here in my back and I know or

9 if I have a got a fixed idea where I was shot from, it's not at all

10 difficult for me to turn my body to the position in which I must have been

11 to be shot there from that position; correct?

12 A. Well, that is where I don't completely agree. There is some --

13 something called -- well, there are -- the memory of people is not always

14 what the physical conditions exactly are at the time of some things

15 happening. In the military there's the fog of war. As people -- they

16 know they're hit but are not completely able to exactly be in the same

17 position at exact time of when they're hit. So it's -- I -- I agree that

18 on a lot of the case, a lot of the incidents the victims when they show

19 their self, where they show where they're hit on the DVD, for me it

20 doesn't necessarily mean -- if I've -- especially in the case of my -- of

21 the hill, where the victim is hit in the hill, in case number 10, for an

22 incident happening 10 years ago it would be very difficult for me to -- if

23 only for one moment I have my heel turned to the right or to the left, it

24 can alter the complete situation. So it's -- it's very -- yeah. For me

25 the biggest difficulty was is the -- the memory of the victims, is it

Page 16300

1 correct as to where the exact location or at the exact position their body

2 was in at the time.

3 Q. Now, the complete list of incidents, it's numbers 1 to 14 but with

4 two -- two numbers taken out, numbers 5 and 12. So we've got 12 incidents

5 here and they're on different dates, the earliest being 13th of May, 1993,

6 and the latest being the 2nd of March, 1994. Just one, possibly two

7 dates -- I think there was just one date where there were two incidents on

8 the same date.

9 It's right, is it, that you have yourself no knowledge of what was

10 happening -- apart from what you've been told about the specific

11 incidents, you have no knowledge of what was happening on any of those

12 dates in terms of what military combat there was, what attacks, what

13 activity there was in the area? You had not been briefed on that and you

14 do not know any of that, do you?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Mr. Ibrisimovic, any questions?

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

20 continues] ... questions, Mr. President. We have time to other Defence

21 teams.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Does Prosecution

23 have any redirect?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President, I have just one question

25 but I would like to simply put on the record the fact that during the

Page 16301

1 cross-examination of General Praljak the fact that the Prosecution didn't

2 object to a number of questions does -- should not in any way be taken to

3 imply that in any way we agree with any of his characterisations of any of

4 the evidence given to date.

5 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

6 Q. Lieutenant van der Weijden, I just have one question, if you

7 will. It follows from a number of questions put to you during the course

8 of cross-examination, and the question is this, sir: What action should a

9 shooter take in the event that he or she is unable to distinguish between

10 the civilian or combatant status of the intended target?

11 A. For the rules of engagement that I've been provided with in my

12 operations, it has always been to withhold fire until positive

13 identification of enemy personnel.

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 MR. MUNDIS: We have no further questions.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much

17 on behalf of myself and my colleagues for coming here to give testimony.

18 Your testimony was in two steps, and unfortunately we were not able to do

19 anything else.

20 My best wishes for you to continue your mission. I will now ask

21 the usher to please escort you out of the courtroom and to bring the new

22 witness in the courtroom.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, our next witness,

24 could you tell us who our next witness is?

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next witness is

Page 16302

1 Lieutenant Colonel Hakan Birger.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Before this witness leaves, I think

3 it eluded us all, the initialing of the map where there was a discussion

4 about 2.000 metres. Maybe it would be good to have an IC number for it

5 because there will be later references to whether it was 1 or 2

6 kilometres.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And what was on the ELMO for

8 some reason was not entered into evidence.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No. The others are not a problem.

10 The others are all in e-court.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The registrar is telling me that

12 the image must absolutely be marked. So, please, Witness, could you sit

13 down. We will call up the photograph again on the screen. Thank you.

14 Could you please mark on the screen today's date, March 26, 2007,

15 and sign your name.

16 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, would it be possible for me to zoom out

17 on the map to look at the map data?

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] We can show the witness the

20 original so he can look at the distance.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You will be given the original

22 map.

23 THE WITNESS: I have to correct myself. I said 2 centimetres is 1

24 kilometre. It is 4 centimetres is 2 kilometres, but it is still one

25 square is 1 kilometre so it doesn't change the diameter.

Page 16303

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] At the bottom of the map

2 take a simple pencil and see, according to the scale, what the distance is

3 from 0 to 2 kilometres.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll give an IC number for the

5 map on screen. Registrar, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the map on the screen will become

7 Exhibit IC --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute Just a minute,

9 registrar, please.

10 THE WITNESS: I see my mistake. Sorry.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The witness did not mark the

12 spot where the incident happened. I would like him to do that.

13 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could you please mark it

15 with a number 1.

16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Mr. Registrar, could you please give number for this map that we

19 have now on the screen.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This will become IC 509.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: For the record it might be useful to state that

22 in a map 1:50.000, which we have before us, 2 centimetres are equal to 1

23 kilometre in the terrain. In a map 1:100.000, it is 1 centimetre which

24 corresponds to 1 kilometre. I do not think that this is something which

25 is not really a matter of common knowledge.

Page 16304

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please. The date is

2 May 25 or May 26? I think the date is wrong.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, this were May 26th today.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Or March 26th today, says the interpreter.

5 March 26th, interpreter's correction.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, you put March

7 25, and we're at March 26th today.

8 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I'm also very sorry I have to correct myself

9 again on the distance on the map because I was too quick with my

10 conclusion. The reason for it is I usually work with military maps that

11 have 1-kilometre squares, but these have indeed 2-kilometre squares,

12 because it's usually with 88, 89, 90, and here it's only the even numbers

13 that are mentioned.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. The map on the screen now

15 dated March 26th, 2007, is number IC 509.

16 Mr. Kovacic, do you want an IC number also for the map itself?

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] It would be a good idea for

18 technical reasons. This is good enough for us, especially after the

19 witness has made the correction in his statement about the distance.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

21 continues] ... necessary.

22 Witness, now, after this correction, thank you. And could the

23 usher please escort you out of the courtroom.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you now have the

Page 16305

1 floor for the next witness.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The next witness is

3 lieutenant colonel Hakan Birger. And perhaps if I could suggest that once

4 he's brought in and placed under oath perhaps if we could then take the

5 break before I begin the direct examination I believe I could then

6 structure it in such a way that I could finish the direct examination

7 before we finish for the evening.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Time, regarding time, the

9 Prosecution had planned on an hour and 30 minutes. We decided that the

10 Defence would be allocated two hours, and it's up to the accused to split

11 the time among themselves.

12 Maybe to prevent any problem we could have the break right now?

13 We'll have a 20-minute break right now and then we will resume after the

14 break. I think this is a batter way to proceed.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.00 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 5.20 p.m.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I can see that the

19 witness is in the courtroom. Please, Mr. Registrar, have the witness be

20 taken out of the room, just for a matter of seconds.

21 Please leave the room, sir. Sir, you're going to leave the

22 courtroom just for a few seconds. I have to make an announcement without

23 you being in the courtroom.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. With regard to the length,

Page 16306

1 we decided that the Defence would have two hours. I said that you had to

2 agree among yourselves. If there's no agreement, we will think that

3 General Petkovic should have 30 minutes, General Praljak 30 minutes, and

4 as to the other counsel, they will each have 15 minutes. This is how

5 we're going to spread the time.

6 Secondly, I'm saying this to you without the witness being in the

7 courtroom because last time Mr. Karnavas, who is not with us today, said

8 that when the witness knew in advance how much time he had to answer

9 questions this could have an impact on his testimony. So from now on we

10 shall no longer say how long the time will be when the witness is in the

11 courtroom, because we don't want him or her to how much time is left for

12 questions and to answer them.

13 So this is what I wanted to say. This is the reason why I asked

14 the witness to go out the courtroom.

15 Yes, Ms. Alaburic.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for giving

17 me this opportunity. I would like to make a verbal request to enable the

18 Defence to have a longer time for examining this witness for the same

19 reason. The Prosecution intends to spend 90 minutes on direct examination

20 exclusively on evidence that they intend to introduce through this

21 witness. Apart from that, there will be statements introduced totaling 30

22 pages of text. Mere reading of these statements would require around 90

23 minutes without interpretation, and for answers to be elicited in direct

24 examination, the Prosecution would need approximately four to five hours

25 for the same content and testimony, so that in viva voce, the Prosecution

Page 16307

1 would need five to six hours for this evidence.

2 I would therefore kindly ask for the Defence to have the whole day

3 tomorrow for cross-examination, which is around four and a half hours, and

4 we will distribute this time between us.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do not have the 65 ter list in

6 front of me, but I was under the impression that initially there was one

7 hour and a half for the Prosecution on that list. So the Defence was

8 aware of the time allotted. I know that the Prosecutor intended to have a

9 65 ter -- or, rather, to have a 92 ter witness, but then you decided to

10 remain viva voce. So this is what is happening.

11 I'm just leafing through the documents as you were speaking, and

12 their a number of documents we have already seen and that we're bound to

13 see again. However, there is the 2980 document, which is of several

14 pages, but as a matter of fact, we are interested in the 23rd of October,

15 and that's not 30 pages long.

16 So personally, this is what I wanted to convey to you.

17 But, Mr. Mundis, you are on your feet.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Excuse me. Thank you, Mr. President. Good

19 afternoon, Your Honours. Let me -- I'll accept full responsibility for

20 perhaps what has resulted in some confusion.

21 As I indicated in a letter that was submitted to the Defence and a

22 copy of which was provided to the Trial Chamber's legal officers this

23 morning, we indicated that due to time pressure and concerns about

24 completing the schedule for this week that we were considering or were

25 likely to employ the 92 ter procedure with respect to the next witness.

Page 16308

1 Given the fact that we seem to have now completed the first witness and

2 there are no longer those time pressures - I did indicate this to at least

3 one of the Defence teams earlier - we are prepared to go ahead with a viva

4 voce examination of this witness.

5 I will also state that although a number of documents were

6 initially listed as against this witness and are in the bundles that have

7 been provided at least to the Trial Chamber, I expect to only be using

8 approximately 10 of those documents with this witness because the

9 remaining documents have either been already covered or the witness didn't

10 have sufficient knowledge or information concerning those documents. So I

11 am at this point prepared to go forward taking this witness as a viva voce

12 witness and showing him approximately 10 documents. And as I indicated

13 prior to the break, I do believe that we will complete the direct

14 examination by close of business today or perhaps have a little bit of

15 time remaining for tomorrow but not any significant amounts of time

16 remaining for tomorrow.

17 So I would propose going forward as a viva voce witness and using

18 approximately 10 documents with the witness, and I certainly believe I can

19 do that within approximately 90 minutes, barring any unforeseen

20 circumstances.

21 I believe that the witness's two prior statements could be among

22 the bundle that was provided to the Trial Chamber, but again I will take

23 him as a viva voce witness under the current plan because of the fact that

24 we completed Lieutenant van der Weijden testimony in a timely manner.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

Page 16309

1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can only express my

2 satisfaction at having this witness heard viva voce. That will reduce our

3 needs for time, but not much, for the very simple reason that this witness

4 will utter a sentence and a document will be shown to him for which I will

5 need at least one hour to show the real state of affairs. So that if my

6 estimate was four hours for cross-examination, that can now be reduced to

7 three hours.

8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may point out one

9 matter that is perhaps technical in one aspect. Regardless of whether

10 there was a 92 witness or viva voce witness, if the Prosecution succeeds

11 in finishing with the witness in 90 minutes or so, then the Defence would

12 have all day tomorrow, approximately, because the witness after is not

13 scheduled until the day after tomorrow. We are at risk of facing an

14 absurd situation where we would leave tomorrow two -- or two and a half

15 hours earlier, before the end of the day, without having examined the

16 witness properly.

17 At this stage of the Prosecution case, I may say that the

18 Prosecution's planning is almost perfect. We had no idle time almost.

19 But there were some witnesses who were introduced at a late stage, like

20 Mr. van der Weijden, and the time was too short for us to properly prepare

21 for cross-examination.

22 This witness comes with two statements, as my colleague said, the

23 statements having been taken at different times and for purposes of

24 different cases as is the custom of the Prosecution. There are statements

25 from 1995, which in terms of content and lines of questioning was destined

Page 16310

1 to serve the indictment concerning a conflict between Croats and Muslims,

2 and another statement from 2000, or maybe 2001, that was designed to

3 support another case. I believe it was Hadzihasanovic. So now, if we are

4 going forward with 92 ter, then both statements should be taken into

5 account. If it's a viva voce witness, then we will have to cross-examine

6 on the second statement let alone the other documents.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis said that it will be

8 a viva voce witness. Is that so, Mr. Mundis?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Well, unless we spend considerably more time arguing

10 about how little time there is available, I am prepared to go forward on a

11 viva voce basis and show this witness 10 documents. I expect that it will

12 take no more than 90 minutes to do that.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we're going to start, as

14 we indicated. Tomorrow we'll have four hours. If indeed you need extra

15 time, speaking about General Petkovic, he will have the extra time. Let

16 us bring in the witness.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps while the usher is doing that, Mr. President,

18 there were a number of issues, or at least one issue in particular that

19 was remaining from our hearing late last week that the Defence teams

20 wanted the accused present for in order to discuss that issue. I might

21 suggest that if there were some time towards the end of this week that

22 might be an appropriate time to discuss that, because the next three weeks

23 or the entire calendar in April appears to be relatively tight, and if the

24 Chamber wants to come back to that issue and if there is some time towards

25 the end of this week, that might be the best time to deal with that issue.

Page 16311

1 [The witness entered court]


3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Could you

4 please state your surname, first name, and date of birth.

5 THE WITNESS: My name is Hakan Birger, and I'm born in 1955, 26th

6 of August.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation?

8 THE WITNESS: I'm an officer in the Swedish army.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which rank?

10 THE WITNESS: Lieutenant Colonel.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, have you had an

12 opportunity to testify in this Tribunal and, if so, in which case?

13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you had -- I shall repeat.

15 Have you had an opportunity to testify in this Tribunal and, if so, could

16 you tell us in which case you testified?

17 THE WITNESS: No, it's no problem for me. I don't understand the

18 question.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is a rather simple question.

20 I asked you whether you have been a witness in this Tribunal. So say yes

21 or no.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes. I've been here before, yes.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, since you said yes, maybe

24 you could tell me in which case you were a witness, in case you know.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I witness here in case about -- it was officers

Page 16312

1 and generals from the 3rd Corps and the, say, the Muslims' brigade from

2 the Bosnian army.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have testified once

4 before.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You testified in the

7 Hadzihasanovic, Kubura case. I shall ask you to read out now the solemn

8 declaration you have in your hands.

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please sit

12 down.

13 Since you've been a witness before, you know the proceedings

14 before this Tribunal. First questions will be put to you by the

15 Prosecution. They believe they should complete their examination-in-chief

16 today, and tomorrow you will have to answer questions put to you by the

17 Defence counsel representing the accused or by the accused themselves.

18 You have four Judges in fronts of you. They, too, can ask questions of

19 you. We can ask questions at any time, but we have now decided to wait

20 until questions have been put by both parties to ask questions ourselves,

21 unless it is absolutely necessary, in which case we will put questions to

22 you because we should not necessarily wait until all parties have put

23 their questions.

24 Please try to respond very clearly. You are a military man. I'm

25 sure you'll do that. And if you do not understand a question asked of

Page 16313

1 you, do not hesitate to say so and ask the person putting the question to

2 reformulate it, as you have just done with me.

3 So this is generally speaking how the proceedings will unfold.

4 Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Examination by Mr. Mundis:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Lieutenant-Colonel Birger. Could you hear me,

8 sir?

9 A. Yes, I hear you.

10 Q. Sorry. Let's start, sir, if you will, telling the Trial Chamber a

11 little bit about what you were doing in terms of your military career in

12 early 1993. What post were you serving in, in early 1993?

13 A. In early 1993, I was a battalion commander in the Swedish army,

14 and I was also working as a teacher in academy for officers' training and

15 so on.

16 Q. Did there come a time, sir, when you received orders to report to

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 A. I was there voluntary and all officers and soldiers were there

19 voluntary, so it -- it was what it was.

20 Q. And when did you volunteer to go to Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21 A. I think it was in the beginning of May 1993, and we start training

22 and we recruit the soldiers in June, and we start training in the

23 beginning -- first three weeks in July 1993.

24 Q. And what was the position that you held during this deployment to

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 16314

1 A. I was company commander for one of the mechanised company, 8

2 mechanised company.

3 Q. And within what military organisation were you deployed to Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina?

5 A. It was a mechanised battalion, and we have three mechanised

6 companies in this battalion, and also one supply and staff company, and it

7 was also a Danish tank company in the battalion.

8 Q. And, sir, what was the name of this battalion that you were

9 serving in as a company commander?

10 A. Yes. We had one battalion in Macedonia before, so it was NordBat

11 2.

12 Q. Now, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, can you tell the Trial Chamber

13 when you first entered Bosnia and Herzegovina and for what purpose?

14 A. I think it was the 13 of May -- middle of September. It was down

15 where we were recognised with the battalion commander, the company

16 commander and some staff members. We were -- used the Swedish air force

17 to Italy and next day we was flying to Sarajevo and was down there a week,

18 and after that we were flying back to Denmark. In Denmark our unit was

19 for training, the last training before going to Bosnia.

20 Q. And Lieutenant Colonel Birger, when did your company deploy to

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. It was me and my platoon leader. We was totally 10 in my company.

23 We came down into Bosnia the last day in September 1993 to Tuzla, and the

24 next day, the 1st of October, we used our cars and get down to Vares

25 [Realtime transcript read in error "various"] area and there we was living

Page 16315

1 together with engineering company from the Canadian Battalion. And the

2 1st Platoon of my alpha platoon arrived to Bosnia down to this area the 20

3 of October.

4 Q. Okay. And when did the other platoons --

5 A. I think it was the 22nd or something like this, the -- they

6 arrived -- I don't remember exactly but they arrived -- I have the three

7 mechanised platoons in October, 1 and 3.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I just wanted to point

10 out a mistake in the transcript, page 57, line 25. It says "various

11 area." I think the witness actually said Vares area, which seems

12 important to me.


14 Q. That's correct.

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. To the Vares area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us again, sir, when the remaining platoons of the 8th

19 company or 8th Mechanised Company of NordBat arrived?

20 A. We arrived as they starting in the 20 -- 20 of October the first

21 platoon arrived and when they arrived some days later, and I think in this

22 time, I mean in the last day of October, have Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie

23 platoon in my area. That's 3 mechanised infantry platoons. And later we

24 also have my anti-tank missile platoon, but they arrived in November some

25 days without vehicles, and they came in -- in February.

Page 16316

1 Q. Now, sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber please a little bit about

2 the composition of each of your platoons to include the type of vehicles

3 and equipment that they had during this deployment?

4 A. It was Swedish -- Swedish old APCs. It was from 60s, beginning of

5 60s, and it was tracked APCs with 20 millimetres automatic cannon. We

6 have Carl Gustaf anti-tank weapon. We have machine guns, and we have

7 carbines, so to say, yeah, weapon, hand weapon hand. We also have -- we

8 was equipped for war, so to say, in Swedish organisation.

9 Q. And approximately how many men were in each of the platoons?

10 A. A little bit more than 30 and totally in the company we was 150,

11 and I have also directly in October one so to say unit from a medical

12 platoon. So I have also nurse and doctors in my company the whole time.

13 Q. And before I forget to ask you this, sir, how long was the 8th

14 mechanised company deployed with NordBat in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. It was long time. They change person in -- we changed. We had

16 the same name, same name of battalion, the same name of company, so we

17 start rotate -- we rotated personnel in last March and beginning of April

18 1994. So more or less six months.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down. Thank you.



22 Q. We've been asked by the interpreters to slow down. Can you please

23 tell us Lieutenant Colonel Birger about your reporting chain of command

24 going upwards?

25 A. Our battalion staff was in factory just outside Tuzla and where we

Page 16317

1 have a battalion staff and the staff and supply company and the battalion

2 commander. So I reporting to this place and the battalion reporting to

3 the BH command in Kiseljak.

4 Q. Now, what was the name of the NordBat commander, the battalion

5 commander, in Tuzla during your deployment?

6 A. It was Colonel Ulf Henricsson.

7 Q. And can you explain, sir, to avoid any confusion, what was BH

8 command in Kiseljak?

9 A. BH command what -- when we arrived it was UN command for the UN

10 commands in Bosnia, and when it was also in Zagreb it was headquarter for

11 UNPROFOR in whole Yugoslavia.

12 Q. So BH command was part of UNPROFOR?

13 A. Yes. It was a part and they command the UN battalions in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Birger, during the time your company was

16 deployed in Bosnia-Herzegovina, who was the BH commander, the commander of

17 BH command?

18 A. When I arrive it was General Briquemont from Belgium, and after

19 some months, I don't really exactly know, we changed commander to Sir

20 Michael Rose from United Kingdom.

21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, sir, where you located your

22 headquarters upon arriving in Vares?

23 A. We look for place so we could -- we know the winter could be very

24 hard in this area so we look for place where we could raise tent inside

25 buildings, and we find that place outside Vares more or less north of

Page 16318

1 Vares in -- in a factory. And this factory, it was also sawmill, and it

2 was also factory for furnitures. And the last place, the place for

3 furnitures factory, so it was good for us so we have agreement with the --

4 they were, what you can say, local government in Vares how we should pay

5 and so on. So we rent this place for the Vares company -- Vares

6 government, so to say.

7 Q. Was your location known to the local people as the sawmill?

8 A. Yes, it was close to the sawmill.

9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about any buildings that were

10 adjacent to the sawmill or outside the sawmill at this location?

11 A. Yes. The -- the commander for the forces in this area what they

12 call Bobovac Brigade, this headquarter was very close. I think it's also

13 only 200 metres from the gate to the sawmill, and it was, what I could

14 understand, a hotel, maybe a sports hotel or something like this.

15 Q. Now, you mentioned the Bobovac Brigade. Can you tell us which

16 military force the Bobovac Brigade belonged to?

17 A. It's belonged to who you ask. If we ask the commander of the 2nd

18 Corps up in Tuzla they said it was a part of a 2nd Corps. But if I asked

19 the commander of the Bobovac Brigade, he said it was more or less an

20 independent unit in the area.

21 Q. And, sir, when you say the 2nd Corps, which army or armed force

22 are you referring to?

23 A. BH army.

24 Q. Were you familiar with a military force known as the HVO?

25 A. Familiar -- I don't understand exactly.

Page 16319

1 Q. Did you know about an armed force known as the HVO?

2 A. No, I don't.

3 Q. Can you tell us, sir, about the situation from a military point of

4 view at the time of your arrival in Bosnia-Herzegovina in October 1993?

5 A. Yes. What I could understand, the Swedish government was want to

6 have a more or less battalion up in Tuzla area, so to -- to have the

7 company down in Vares area, it was more or less something down to Swedish

8 government want, but when we came down where we were under command of UN

9 command, so they want to have one company in Vares area, and what we

10 understand it was, it could be war or fighting in this area and it was a

11 problem. There was also a lot of refugees. When I came there first day I

12 arrived to Vares when we was down in September, first I observed there was

13 a lot of refugees inside the town, thousands of them, and I understand

14 that most of them came from Kakanj area.

15 Q. And what about the actual situation from a military point of view?

16 Was there active combat in your area?

17 A. We find out in October that it was no problem in north and east.

18 What's mean, it was a brigade in Olovo was a part of 2nd Corps. When we

19 talked to this brigade commander and ask him about Bobovac Brigade, they

20 said it's no -- they was more or less friends. We will have a meeting to

21 solve small problem every week, and I have observed and we understand that

22 in west it was fighting, more or less small fighting against 3rd Corps,

23 the Bosnian 3rd Corps, Bosnian army 3rd Corps. And when I ask him he said

24 yes he understand it was fighting. And we went because I think he also

25 said, they really crazy, the 3rd Corps. So I understand they were

Page 16320

1 fighting. It was also fighting a little south-west of Vares, and some day

2 we have arrived it was some policemen and some policemen who are be --

3 some policemen was killed and some was wounded, and my medical look -- the

4 day after we visit the -- this policemen, and they was in what you can

5 call a field hospital, and it was in the 2nd Corps area west of --

6 north-west of Olovo. So I think it was more friendly with the 2nd Corps

7 because the 2nd Corps said it was a part of 2nd Corps, but not on the 3rd

8 Corps. That was fighting.

9 Q. And just so that the record is clear, sir, who was fighting

10 against the 3rd Corps?

11 A. Bobovac Brigade.

12 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what was the geographic

13 extent of your company's AOR or area of responsibility?

14 A. Yes. It was -- it was very big. We -- we -- from the south we

15 have to the confrontation line or to the border to the BH army and up to

16 Kladanj. It's a place north of Olovo. And up in the area of Ribnica and

17 down to Kopjari and down to south of -- south-west of Vares. So it was

18 very big area for one company.

19 Q. Other than the Bobovac Brigade and the 2nd and 3rd Corps of the

20 army of Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what other military forces, if

21 any, were in or near your AOR?

22 A. Sometimes I don't really not understand what the type of unit was

23 from the south. They tell us it was the 6th Corps and it was the 1st

24 Corps, but in November and the rest of my time there it was the 1st Corps

25 in south, and it was more or less they call it Sarajevo corps, they call

Page 16321

1 it.

2 Q. And again, which army was that?

3 A. BH army. Sorry.

4 Q. To your knowledge, sir, were there any Bosnian Serb army or VRS

5 forces in or around your AOR?

6 A. Yes, in Olovo there was more or less heavy fighting, and some days

7 in the winter we could -- some were about 2.000 impacts in Olovo and it

8 was fighting with the BSA army and the BH army. So it was also Serbs just

9 east of Dastansko. Dastansko is a village east of Vares.

10 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Birger, during your first, say, month of being

11 deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, did you have any interaction with the

12 leadership of the Bobovac Brigade?

13 A. In the first weeks we have a good cooperation with the Bobovac

14 Brigade. We was interest to know where -- the first thing for us, the

15 important thing for us was to have freedom of movement, because if we

16 don't have freedom of movement, we couldn't do anything. So that was very

17 important for us. And that was no problem with the Bobovac Brigade. We

18 have freedom of movement, and we was the first two weeks, maybe three, we

19 was out more or less every day to -- to recognise in the different roads

20 and different areas for observe -- where we could have observation posts,

21 where are we could check points later, where we could even recognise

22 positions for the Danish tank, because one of my missions was also to

23 protect this area. I mean, the Tuzla finger up. So if not, the Serbs

24 were cutting this area.

25 Q. With whom did you have discussions in the Bobovac Brigade

Page 16322

1 concerning freedom of movement?

2 A. We had a meeting with -- with commander, and -- but the officers

3 who was more or less showing us the maps who some days also following us

4 out in the terrain what we call the operational officer.

5 Q. And, sir, do you recall the names of the commanding officer and

6 the operations officer?

7 A. I think it was Emil Harah, or something like this, was the

8 commander, and Kresimir Bosic, something like this, was the operational

9 officer.

10 Q. Do you recall, sir, the names of any other Bobovac Brigade

11 officers that you had regular contact with?

12 A. No. I remember they call one was security officer, and he could

13 speak a little bit English, but I'm not really exactly remember the name.

14 Q. Did you similarly have any contacts or discussions with anyone

15 from the BH army 2nd or 3rd Corps?

16 A. Yes, of course. We have the same discussion with the brigade

17 commander in Olovo, and also want to have freedom of movement, and we was

18 there and more or less every time when we was there was impact close to

19 our vehicles from the Serbian side.

20 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Birger, did there come a time in October 1993

21 when the situation in your AOR became much more hostile or intense, in

22 terms of the parties to the conflict?

23 A. Yes. I -- it was very important for me to -- soon I have my first

24 soldiers down there to take them up in Kopjari area, and I had two reasons

25 for that. First was to observe what's going on in the area, and the

Page 16323

1 second was to observe down into village, Mijakovic and Dragovic, because

2 it was more clear Muslims village inside this area, and I -- I want to

3 observe so nothing happening with these people, and they have no food

4 where it was -- they have a little bit bad situation in these two village.

5 Q. Do you recall, sir, the approximate date that you went to this

6 area, Kopjari?

7 A. Yes, I was there one of these first weeks in -- when I arrived we

8 was up, and recognised also visit these two village, and immediately when

9 I have down my Alpha platoon in this 20 of October, I at the afternoon

10 take them up to this area, and -- and they have a position just south of

11 Kopjari up on the hill.

12 Q. And what was the purpose of this position just south of Kopjari up

13 on the hill?

14 A. They was there to observe and report what was going on in the area

15 and also to observe the -- down in the two village so nothing should

16 happening with Muslims inhabitants in these two village. And I remember

17 it was dark when I leave this place this evening, the 20 of October, and I

18 talk to one might have officers when we walk to the car, and I said I

19 think it's going on very quickly, because we also have observed the same

20 day. It was a lot of BH soldiers down in Dragovic and Mijakovic and there

21 were no soldiers there some weeks before.

22 Q. And I believe, sir, just for the record you mentioned Dragovici

23 and Mijakovici; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Did the situation in the area around Kopjari and Dragovici,

Page 16324

1 Mijakovici change in the next day or two?

2 A. Yeah. The next day think it was early in the morning before I

3 wake up I had waked up my staff soldiers and they was under fire, my

4 soldier were was under fire in Kopjari, and the BH army had start an

5 attack and they attacked at first from west a little bit north of Kopjari

6 but the main, the big attack, so to say, came from this two village. And

7 it was also fog in this morning, so -- they use this, so they came very

8 close to the Kopjari and after some hours the village was taken by the BH

9 army.

10 Q. How long did your Alpha platoon maintain an observation post on

11 the hill near Kopjari?

12 A. They was there until about -- until I send -- I don't know how

13 long time they been in there, but in November sometimes we take them away,

14 but these belong to the -- all the lines have changed in this moment one

15 month later.

16 Q. But in the October November period you still maintained an

17 observation post?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Let me turn now, sir, to the morning of 23 October 1993. Can you

20 tell the Trial Chamber what you remember happening on the morning of 23

21 October 1993?

22 A. This morning I was up in the meeting or I went -- I get up to --

23 to the Bobovac Brigade because we also have a meeting one day before about

24 the situation in Kopjari area and so on, so we have a new meeting this

25 morning, and when I came up there, there was no commanders. So nobody

Page 16325

1 want to talk to me, and -- sorry, I -- sorry. It was later. I meet the

2 commanders and they say it was in fight and they was in the war and been

3 attacked from the south and that was correct because we have observed

4 detonations and so on from the south. And the village of Mir, I think it

5 was a village inside the Bobovac Brigade area, was attacked by the BH

6 army. And they also informed me that therefore they have attacked a

7 village with name Stupni Do, and they do that because there was shooting

8 against the supply lines. The supply line was through this village down

9 to Mir. I don't know before what this should be some Muslim village or

10 something like this, so I don't really this moment understand. I think it

11 was solely from BH army who had taken this village. So in the fighting

12 was not -- nothing for us. We was not there to stop the war. We was there

13 to protect the civilians.

14 Q. And, sir, when you say it was a soldier from the BH army who had

15 taken this village, which village are you referring to?

16 A. My mean, BH army was attacking Mir and what I understand was also

17 some soldiers inside Stupni Do shooting to the Bobovac Brigade supply

18 lines. That was what they tell me in this morning. So therefore the

19 Bobovac Brigade has start attack the Stupni Do.

20 Q. Okay. And when you say, sir, that was what they tell me in the

21 morning, who was the "they"?

22 A. It was the leader of the operational officer of the Bobovac

23 Brigade. Brigade commander wasn't there.

24 Q. And again the name of the operation officer?

25 A. I think it was Kresimir Bozic or something like this.

Page 16326

1 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately what time on the 23rd of

2 October, 1993, Kresimir Bozic told you this?

3 A. I don't really negotiation but I think it was maybe 8.00 or

4 something like this. We have a normal routines in the camp, so maybe I --

5 or maybe between 7.30, 8.00, leave my camp and get up. It take only

6 minutes. It was very close.

7 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately how long you remained at the

8 Bobovac Brigade headquarters on the morning of the 23rd of October --

9 A. I was maybe there only 20, 30 minutes because the commander wasn't

10 there and they said they was in fighting in this area, and they have a lot

11 to do and so on. So I leaved, and when I came back to my camp I have a

12 reporting about some minutes after I have arrived that my soldiers who was

13 going up to Kopjari was stopped by a check-point inside Vares, and this

14 check-points have been opened before because we have agreement with

15 Bobovac Brigade for freedom of movement. So --

16 Q. Approximately what time was this?

17 A. It was maybe 9.00. It was just -- it was before lunchtime, I

18 remember. And I get down there and talk to this -- you can call them

19 policemen or what they was, and ask them why we don't -- was allowed to

20 pass the check-point and they said it was for our safety, UNPROFOR safety

21 because there was attack in Vares. I said that is my problem. That is

22 not your problem. But they have order to stop UN units. So I ordered my

23 soldiers to stay there and you are here until they let you go up to

24 Kopjari or I give you another order. And that immediately I went back to

25 Bobovac Brigade and talk to why we don't have freedom of movement.

Page 16327

1 Q. And when you returned to the Bobovac Brigade, Lieutenant Colonel

2 Birger, who did you speak with?

3 A. I speak to what we call the security officer or they called him --

4 we call him like this. Not the operation officer. And he could little

5 English and we was not in the normal room, so to say. Normally we have

6 meetings in -- you can call it an operational room with maps and so on.

7 Now it was -- it was inside, the right side of the building. Now we were

8 putting into the left, into a restaurant. And where we were sitting, and

9 I want to talk to the commanders, but they said -- he only said, "No, no.

10 We have no commanders. It's bad day for us today," and so on. And after

11 some -- between coffee we have lunch there, and one hour get, two hours,

12 and after some hours he said, "Maybe now we have people here from

13 Kiseljak." And I asked what it was, two people, but I don't really

14 understand what he mean about people from Kiseljak, but in afternoon I

15 could observe it, arrive people. I don't know how many, but they arrived

16 directly from a door past the restaurant and get inside to operational

17 room, and it was people I never seen before.

18 Q. Did you at any point in time on that morning speak to the people

19 who came, who passed by this door?

20 A. Sorry, I don't --

21 Q. Did you at any point in time on that day speak to any of the

22 people who passed by that door?

23 A. Not -- not this morning. Not on the day.

24 Q. And how long did you remain at the Bobovac Brigade at this point

25 in time on 23 October 1993?

Page 16328

1 A. I was there just -- I think it was going to the end of afternoon,

2 it's going to be dark, so I understand that nobody want to talk to me. No

3 commanders was there, they said, so -- but I understand some commanders

4 were coming from Kiseljak area but nobody want to talk to me. So I

5 couldn't be there. So I leaved and get back to my company.

6 Q. And approximately how long were you there on that day, the 23rd of

7 October?

8 A. I think it was about totally five to six hours. I don't really

9 remember, but I was there just before lunch, or lunchtime, and get back

10 just before it was starting to be dark outside.

11 Q. And before I neglect to ask you this, sir, you mentioned that --

12 that the security officer spoke a little bit of English.

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you generally communicated with

15 the leadership of the Bobovac Brigade?

16 A. Normally we have interpreters. We have interpreters in our unit,

17 and then later we also have a so-called local interpreters from Tuzla area

18 and other areas. But in this moment we just have arrived to Bosnia, so we

19 only have interpreters from Sweden.

20 Q. And can you tell us what the situation was like when you returned

21 to your headquarters at the sawmill on the 23rd of October in the late

22 afternoon, early evening?

23 A. Yes, I can, but I have to add one more. When I remember when I

24 was sitting in this restaurant I also could see they came with wounded

25 soldiers, and what he informed me, this security officer, he came from

Page 16329

1 fighting area just around Stupni Do. He was black dress, black in the

2 face.

3 When I arrived to my company, I -- I haven't been there so long

4 time because I have my equipment off my body because I -- we have a movie

5 of this -- from a video movie, because just after I arrived my battalion

6 commander arrived from south. So he informed me about the situation he

7 had observed from south, and the Bosnian army check-point in the south had

8 been -- there have within some impact with mortar, and he -- when he

9 passed by there was a die cow and a die old man lying beside the road.

10 And he also observed up in the mountain, so to say, he came from south up

11 to Vares. On the right side he could observe up in mountain it was red

12 and smoke. So he could -- he understand that something was burning, very

13 big area was burning. So when he came to my camp he said to me, "Do you

14 know you have a village probably in your area who is burning?" "Yes, I

15 know, and I think the name of this is Stupni Do."

16 Q. Do you recall lieutenant Colonel Birger approximately what time

17 Colonel Henricsson arrived at the sawmill headquarters?

18 A. No, I don't know which time it was. It was dark outside. It was

19 raining and I don't know. And -- but we start talking. We have to do

20 something. And he have already talk -- if I remember right, talked to the

21 BH army in south, and now he want to -- to inform me what -- we must do

22 something. And we discuss that very much, look at the map, and we have a

23 long discussion in mandatory terms what we have to do. And we decided

24 to -- to try to stop fighting from the both side, and after that get into

25 Stupni Do for look what's happening, especially with the civilians.

Page 16330

1 Q. Having had this discussion with the NordBat commander, sir, what

2 steps did you take?

3 A. Yes. We -- we understand that we have to do something to get

4 inside, so before that we also have to -- to have stop fighting. So we

5 went down to the BH army, small headquarters or something. I think it was

6 in Pajtov Han or something like this, south of Vares, and my commander was

7 talking to these others, I don't talk to them. But he have some type of

8 agreement that if we could get inside Stupni Do they should stop fighting

9 for hours or something like this. So it was no problem. After that we

10 went north, passed into the Bobovac Brigade area up to the Bobovac Brigade

11 and have a meeting there with the leadership but it was little bit

12 strange. It was not -- we don't meet normally brigade commander. It was

13 new man from Kiseljak, and -- and he had a moustache, and he said his name

14 was Ivica Rajic. And the operational officer we have meet before was also

15 there, and we start negotiations with him but it was not so easy, because

16 -- in the beginning it was no problem. We could get out to Stupni Do.

17 We could do everything. And when he understand we have to do it this

18 night, he said no. So we was discussing and the whole time he build up

19 his steps, instead to find a solution little bit down. So it was

20 impossibility to have agreement with him. So we leaved. And I remember

21 he was walking out and he said, "If you get out Stupni Do tonight I'm

22 going to stop you. I'm going to fight." And we said, "Okay, we

23 understand what you are saying but we are going to get into Stupni Do."

24 Q. And approximately what time was this discussion or what time did

25 you leave on the 23rd of October 1993?

Page 16331

1 A. It's been very late. I think it was just before midnight.

2 Q. And where did you and Colonel Henricsson go at that time.

3 A. We went back to my camp and we discuss again, and immediately when

4 we leave Bobovac Brigade, I give order with radio to my soldiers to be

5 ready to -- with trucks and vehicles, armed vehicles to go out to Stupni

6 Do. So when we come back they were more or less ready to go, but we

7 discussed in the car and we discuss about risks for us. We have never

8 been in this area. It was dark. It was fog outside. It was -- so to say

9 it was not good weather for us. It was not good situation where we could

10 use our weapons. It was more good weather for, say, light armed soldiers.

11 So later we decided to wait until it was darkness the next day.

12 Q. And do you recall, sir, approximately how many men from your

13 company were available on that evening of the 23rd of October, 1993?

14 A. I don't remember. It was more or less maximum one platoon or when

15 we have also some truck, and -- but it was not so much. Maybe five, six

16 vehicles.

17 Q. Where were the rest of the members of your company at that point

18 in time?

19 A. We have -- I have soldiers out in -- in -- in Kopjari. I think it

20 was one -- one part of one platoon. I have a lot of soldiers still in the

21 Pancevo base in Belgrade. So it was more or less three platoons,

22 mechanised platoons, inside. Maybe it was only two. I don't really

23 remember. Maybe the second one have arrived the 22nd. So it could be

24 three.

25 Q. And again, sir, just to avoid confusion later, when you made

Page 16332

1 reference to a lot of soldiers still in the Pancevo base in Belgrade, what

2 were they doing there?

3 A. They was preparing a way to get inside Bosnia, and it was again

4 the whole time with the Bosnian Serbs. We have -- it was not so easy to

5 take inside these soldiers. They stop us the whole time. It was in

6 November, I think, they stop all APCs. So the rest came from Croatia in

7 February.

8 Q. Okay. I take it, sir, your vehicles were shipped by rail to

9 Belgrade; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct, from Denmark.

11 Q. Can you tell us, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, what steps you took

12 beginning the next morning --

13 A. The 24th.

14 Q. -- to try to get to Stupni Do?

15 A. We used the road down in Vares and in the south part of -- little

16 bit south of the centre where is the bridge over the road and -- and when

17 you take the road up to -- to Stupni Do, and you also have to pass under

18 the railway. And this tunnel was closed so to say. There were anti-tank

19 mines and it was soldier there with anti-tank weapons. So when we came

20 there they stop us and said we was not allowed to pass. And we -- I

21 remember I talked to them and tried to find a negotiation, because it was

22 more or less no problem for us to use violence and go up, because I

23 immediately could see we could passed over the railway, so to say, left of

24 this tunnel, but we don't do that because we don't want to stop fighting.

25 It was not Bafobe [phoen] was there. So I tried to negotiate and it was

Page 16333

1 impossibility. They said, "No, you are not allowed to pass." I tried to

2 talk to their commander, Bobovac Brigade. Nobody was there to talk to me.

3 I send a part of my 2nd platoon up in another way. I know it was one road

4 I think more or less from north down to Stupni Do to find this road, and

5 he -- he reported later -- a bit later in the day he was stopped also in

6 the check-point. And after I understand they was very, very close to

7 Stupni Do. We have -- leave the vehicles. Get out. Some -- maybe they

8 could observe down in the village.

9 Q. How long did you remain down with your platoon that was by the --

10 the railroad tunnel?

11 A. They was there the whole day. We tried to get out and there was

12 also some young -- we could call them -- they was equipped like soldiers,

13 but they was young and they was more or less -- I don't understand what it

14 was for type of soldiers, but they belong -- there was Croats, and they

15 came down there just after we have arrived and said, "This is not your

16 country. Leave here," and they unload the workmen and so on. And my

17 military police protect me and also been ready to open fire, and after

18 some minutes we leaved and I talked to the policemen there and they said

19 you must be careful about this soldier, because they are dangerous, and he

20 also think -- he explained they came from Kakanj area and their family

21 members have been killed and so on. And he also said, "I'm sorry to say,

22 but I think you also have some type of these people in your country, but

23 you have them in prison," or -- and I remember I tell him that, "You are a

24 policeman. Take them. Arrest them and take them to prison." But he

25 sard, "No, that's impossible, they kill me."

Page 16334

1 Q. I believe, sir, there might be an error in the transcript on line

2 11 of this page. It indicates they unload the workmen and so on and my

3 military police protected me. What did these -- this soldier or soldiers

4 do when they approached you?

5 A. They have Kalashnikov in their hands and they do something like

6 this to -- ready to shoot and walking to -- forward me. And therefore my

7 policemen get in front of me to protect me.

8 Q. And how was this situation diffused?

9 A. Yes. They -- after some minutes they leaved, and -- and I also

10 leaved, get up back to the Bobovac Brigade headquarter, try to -- to find

11 the commanders, to talk to them, to find a solution, but nobody commander

12 was there. I don't remember how long time, how many times I was there,

13 but I -- I remember I also have sent a patrol with a corps, only one

14 officer and a driver with a car up at the road to Kopjari because over

15 this road when you came, as I said, you could look down in Vares. You

16 also could look over Vares. So we maybe could observe what's going on in

17 Stupni Do.

18 So I travel up to this officer to talk to him about the situation,

19 and when I was there, there came a lady, maybe was 40, 45 years old, and

20 she could speak a little bit German. So she inform us about the situation

21 down in Vares, and she said it was more than 200 Muslims, young boys and

22 men, inside the school just beside the mayor house.

23 Q. Had you heard of this before?

24 A. No. It was new information for me, so I went back to Vares and

25 get into the police station and I was very tough when I come inside there.

Page 16335

1 I said, "I know and you know what's going on in this school. I want to

2 have a list of all the prisoners and I want to have it now." And they

3 immediately gave me a list and I could see that the left of every name it

4 was a number, and I follow quickly down, and I have only a chance to look

5 some seconds because they understand, I think, it was not so good for them

6 to let me look at that. So just before they take it away from me again I

7 have summarying down and could see it was about 233 numbers of prisoner.

8 Q. Do you recall approximately what time on the 24th of October,

9 1993, you were at the police station?

10 A. It was at the afternoon, but not exactly the time, I don't

11 remember.

12 Q. And how long did you remain in the police station on that

13 occasion?

14 A. I -- I know what I -- they give me coffee and so, and I said to

15 them, "But now I want to have --" I would get inside this it and they

16 said, "No, you are not allowed." I said if I'm not allowed I want to talk

17 to one commander who can give me the -- he say that I'm allowed to get

18 inside. But he said, "No, no, no, you couldn't talk to a commander." So

19 I been angry and take my helmet and smash it in the table, and said, "No,

20 I want to talk to your commander." And he immediately take the telephone

21 and talk to somebody, but he's outside here and I could hear he was very,

22 very angry, and he said, "You couldn't talk to him. He don't want to talk

23 to you, and you're not allowed to get inside this school."

24 So when I came out one of my soldiers informed me what it was,

25 somebody who want to talk to you. So I went back. It was dark now

Page 16336

1 outside and I went back my -- one of my APCs on the square and talk to --

2 and just to -- I think it was two members of the Bobovac Brigade. It was

3 two HVO soldiers. And they -- they asked me, "Do you know what's going on

4 in this school?" And I said, "Yes, I think so. I know that there are

5 Muslim men and boy inside there." And he said, "If you are the UN

6 commander here in Vares, you have to do something, because I am from this

7 town and I don't want going bad for them," and then he walked away in the

8 darkness.

9 Q. Do you know who this person was?

10 A. No, I have never meet him before.

11 Q. Now, can you tell us, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, approximately how

12 far this school was from the police station?

13 A. Oh, it's a small square, and you have the mayor house and -- in

14 the square, and you have the school and if you look here you have the

15 mayor house and back in you have the small police station. It was also a

16 very little police station.

17 Q. Where did you go after having this encounter with this gentleman?

18 A. I --

19 Q. At your APC?

20 A. I don't really remember. Maybe I also once more tried to talk to

21 the Bobovac Brigade, but I have no meeting just then, but I ordered in

22 this minute that if we're not allowed won't get inside, we want to have

23 APC outside. So I ordered that one APC from the 1st Platoon to stay down

24 in the tunnel just close to the HVO check-point to try to get through up

25 to Stupni Do. I had a Red Cross APC outside the school because I don't

Page 16337

1 want to provocate. So therefore I had a Red Cross APC out there, and they

2 have only -- mission for one was only observe, do nothing, only observe.

3 I also have -- have some information earlier this day that it was

4 Muslim people down in the village of Dastansko and there was also one

5 musky [phoen]. So earlier this day have ordered had platoon who have been

6 tried to find a way north of Stupni Do. It was the 2nd Bravo platoon. So

7 two of these vehicles was down in Dastanko, and they stay there this

8 evening to protect civilians, protect musky and so on, and observe, of

9 course, what's going on in Dastansko.

10 I also have one APC outside Dastansko up on the hill but I don't

11 remember the name or the place but it was good place to observe the area.

12 And of course I have one -- I have soldiers still up in Kopjari.

13 So when I have all of that and give all of that and everybody was

14 out, I have a new meeting this time at the evening. I don't really know

15 the -- exactly time but it was at the evening. We were in Bobovac

16 Brigade. It was not -- Ivica Rajic was not there. It was -- the

17 battalion commander was not there, but I talk to the operational officer,

18 and I understand more or less maybe he now was the, to say, the new

19 brigade -- the new commander.

20 Q. And again for the record, sir, can you giver us the name?

21 A. The operational officer Kresimir Bozic, something like this.

22 Q. And it's your understanding that he became the brigade commander

23 at -- at about this time?

24 A. Yes, he was the commander that I understand. And we -- I have --

25 I tried to get into the school. I wanted to visit this prison. He said

Page 16338

1 no. And the message to me from him was that you have to take all your

2 soldiers inside the camp, and if you don't do that we're going to destroy

3 them. And we are also going to -- shooting at your camp. The camp was

4 not already a camp. It was still a factory. We have moved one day

5 before, all of us in the 34 -- 33 [sic] of October. We do nothing to

6 protect ourself. So it was still a factory with my units inside.

7 Q. Okay. Now, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, when you mentioned that you

8 moved, and I think that was the -- can you give us the date that you

9 moved?

10 A. I think we move the 23rd of -- of -- of October.

11 Q. Okay. Can you tell it the Trial Chamber where you moved from --

12 A. From the sawmill --

13 Q. -- or to?

14 A. It was the same factory area but I moved 100, 200 metres from the

15 sawmill down to the furniture factory.

16 Q. Okay. But this was all within 1 fenced area?

17 A. It was inside one fence, yes.

18 Q. But part of it was known as the sawmill and part of it was known

19 as the furniture factory?

20 A. Yes, and we built a new fence between the two.

21 Q. And could you recall whether anything else happened on the evening

22 of the 24th of October, 1993, after you got back to the sawmill?

23 A. Yeah. I get back and -- and I get -- we have erect a tent outside

24 so to call it staff tent with communications and I was inside there and

25 talked to my soldiers who was there, some of my officers, and summary what

Page 16339

1 happening the day and checked out what's going on, give order for -- I

2 mean, you couldn't have same soldier outside the whole night so same APCs

3 inside my camp and they have order to some time tonight get out and send

4 back cadavers. So it was about -- I think it was about 10.00 or something

5 like this at the evening. I went into the factory and take my sleeping

6 bag and get ready to sleep, and I have -- I remember I was just to --

7 going down I have my shoes off. One soldier come inside and said, "Major,

8 major, must came out. They have said we are going to shooting against the

9 Red Cross APC down in Vares if they don't move." And I said, "Don't move

10 them. They should stay there. I don't think they are going to shoot. So

11 let them -- don't move. Stay on the place."

12 And he leaved and in that's moment I talked to myself, so to say,

13 and understand that it's not time for me to go to bed. So I start take my

14 shoe and get ready to get out again, and before I was ready for bed the

15 same soldier come running inside again and said, "You must came. They

16 start shooting in Vares," and in this moment I also could hear it was

17 shooting. And when I come out I could see it was shooting against my

18 positions. I could see flash from weapons. I could also see bullets over

19 the building. And it was -- the situation was not so good in the tent.

20 We was in very high position on the hill and we have nothing to protect

21 us. So my soldier was lying down and talking in radio and it was a lot of

22 talking in radio there. And what's happening was that they threw hand

23 grenades to the Red Cross APC. In the same moment it was two Red Cross

24 APCs. One was going down there to change 10.00. So at this moment it was

25 two Red Cross APCs. And those two APCs was hit with a lot of bullets and

Page 16340

1 two hand grenades. So the wheels -- some of the wheels was destroyed on

2 this vehicle.

3 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you this clarification, sir, these, what

4 you've called Red Cross APCs, who owned these vehicles?

5 A. It's a part of my company for wounded soldiers, let's say. They

6 have no arms outside the APC.

7 Q. Were these vehicles of the International Committee of the Red

8 Cross?

9 A. No. It was a number of the UN forces UNPROFOR.

10 Q. And what colour were the vehicles?

11 A. White -- red cross, back side and white near the front.

12 Q. Can you tell us what you remember after having been awoken and

13 going outside and seeing this shooting?

14 A. The first thing that I do is that in this same time they also have

15 change APC down in the tunnel so it was the APC who was coming back. It

16 was the -- the platoon leader for Alpha platoon. So I gave him radio

17 order to went back and assist these two APCs down in -- in Vares. And

18 also one wheeled APC following after. So it was two APC. One tracked and

19 one with wheel. And they moved down and meet these two Red Cross APC, and

20 we sent them back to the camp and moved down with -- with this in the

21 first vehicle was the tracked APC. And when we came down just before the

22 square it was a lot of shooting against this APC. So they stop, shoot

23 some warning shoot. We were automatic cannon in there. I gave order that

24 if they are shooting against you, I have inform the commander of Bobovac

25 Brigade, so to say, the new commander early at the evening that if you are

Page 16341

1 shooting against us we are going to shooting back, no warning shoot. And

2 what was I gave order? No warning, shoot. If shooting at both you, shoot

3 back.

4 Q. Can you tell us, sir, by the late night of the 24th of October,

5 1993, had any members of the 8th Mechanised Company been successful in

6 entering Stupni Do?

7 A. No. Nobody had come inside. As I say, before we was outside in

8 this position, I have tell about before, 10.00, and when they start

9 shooting what I have described, we back some 1, maybe 200 metres, stop

10 there, and after that we were staying there the whole night with this

11 tracked APC and one wheeled APC.

12 Q. And do you recall, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, approximately what

13 time you went to bed on the night of the 24th of October into the 25th of

14 October, 1993?

15 A. I was not going to bed because we have red alert the whole night

16 of my camp. I have -- I have not so much soldier inside my camp, so all

17 was out digging, and we also have some type of mines, not to -- so to say

18 to kill, only for warning. And we was ready the whole night to -- to

19 fight, because we was afraid. Like I said, we was afraid, because if

20 they -- if they shoot at the Red Cross APCs, if they shoot at my APCs down

21 in Vares, we also could do the second thing. He had warning me to -- with

22 snipers shooting down in the camp because it was a valley and we was -- it

23 was very close to -- to the hill, so to say. So my soldier was out the

24 whole night. Nobody was sleeping. I -- I get to sleep early in the

25 morning inside one Red Cross APC. So I have some hours to sleep, but I

Page 16342

1 wake up about 6.00 or 5.30 like this when we have one more platoon from

2 the 10 Corps also there, another company up in Tuzla.

3 Q. Now, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, do you know which force or forces

4 was firing upon the 8th company?

5 A. Yeah. It was inside Vares, and it was HVO soldiers. We

6 recognised one jeep we had seen before, and it was one jeep staying there,

7 and we also used smoke grenades with phosphor when we draw back and some

8 of this phosphor was also hitting this jeep. So next day we could also

9 see that -- the phosphor, and it was part of the Bobovac Brigade.

10 Q. What about the force or forces that was firing upon your camp in

11 the sawmill do you know?

12 A. No we couldn't see it was dark but if my opinion it was the same

13 forces that shutting down in Vares.

14 Q. Now, let me break these into two subject areas, one being Stupni

15 Do and one being the school in Vares. Let's talk first, sir, about Stupni

16 Do. What steps did you take on the morning of the 25th of October, 1993,

17 to gain access to the village of Stupni Do?

18 A. Yes. We still was -- it was very important for us to came inside

19 Stupni Do, both Stupni Do and the school. So we try again to -- to -- to

20 talk to the Bobovac Brigade to get inside the school, but it was never a

21 thought about that this day.

22 Q. Into the --

23 A. We couldn't come inside this day.

24 Q. Into the school.

25 A. Stupni Do.

Page 16343

1 Q. Stupni Do, okay. So when was the first time tower recollection,

2 sir, that members of the 8th company mechanised company of NordBat were

3 able to get into Stupni Do?

4 A. If I may remember right, I think it was the 26th of -- of October.

5 And we do it in the same way what we have to do the morning of 24th. We

6 do it from two -- two roads. My third platoon, with battalion commander

7 Henricsson on, taken, so to say, the north part, and they was also the

8 first unit who came into Stupni Do. In the same moment when they arrived

9 into Stupni Do, a platoon - it was not from my company, it was from -- I

10 think it was Alpha platoon from the 10 Coy [Realtime transcript read in

11 error "corps"] in Tuzla - I ordered them to passed what we tried to do two

12 days before, over the railway, and they do that, and nobody was shooting

13 against them. So they came in from this road, this direction.

14 Q. Okay. Now, line 2 of page 86 makes reference to the 10 corps. I

15 believe you said Coy, C-o-y, which is an abbreviation.

16 A. 10 Coy.

17 Q. Coy being an abbreviation for?

18 A. It was a company in our battalion.

19 Q. And why did part of the 10th company come down to Vares?

20 A. Because I don't have all my soldiers inside my company. Part of

21 them was still outside, and I need more soldiers. This big problem who

22 was growing up day for day in my area.

23 Q. And how did you get these reinforcements from the 10th company.

24 A. They arrived with tracked APCs, tracked APCs one with wheel

25 down -- at night-time from Tuzla area, and some day later it was one more

Page 16344

1 platoon from this company.

2 Q. Now, sir, just to be very, very clear for the record, did you

3 personally ever go to the village of Stupni Do in late October?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What information did you receive concerning what NordBat soldiers

6 observed there?

7 A. I have immediately the information from my battalion commander

8 that there have been a massacre in Stupni Do. All houses are destroy,

9 still burning here. We could see bodies and so on, so we understand

10 something very, very bad happening in Stupni Do.

11 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the specific people in NordBat

12 who went into Stupni Do on the 26th of October, 1993?

13 A. Yeah. As I said, it was the 3rd platoon, the platoon leader was

14 lieutenant Nilson, and together it was also my commander, my platoon

15 leader for 4th platoon. His soldier wasn't there so he was, so to say, an

16 extra officer with this platoon. It was captain Nilson and, of course, my

17 battalion commander, Colonel Henricsson. It was the first officers who

18 came into Stupni Do, and ti -- together it was 30 soldiers also, and they

19 spread them out immediately to look, to observe what's going -- what's

20 happening inside this village. So very quickly I -- we understand that it

21 is -- what's happening there.

22 Q. Do you recall, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, whether any medical

23 officers from NordBat entered Stupni Do in October 1993?

24 A. Yes. Later we send in our battalion doctor, so to say, medical

25 staff doctor but it was not this same day. It was later. And the day

Page 16345

1 after we have entered it was some people from Kiseljak where it was

2 military police there to investigate what's happening, and it was also the

3 Chief of Staff of BH command, Brigadier Ramsay, was there, and it was also

4 a lot of media there.

5 Q. And who were these people from Kiseljak?

6 A. It was military police, and the -- and the mission for them was to

7 investigate what's going on, and they have written report about what's

8 happening there.

9 Q. And what military force were these military police from?

10 A. It was from UNPROFOR.

11 Q. Now, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, let's turn to the school, the

12 situation --

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Mundis. You do not plan this, I

14 think, but you constantly address our witness as Lieutenant Colonel. He

15 has told us that he's a Colonel now, if I understood you correctly, and I

16 do not think there is any reason to downgrade you again.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I was Major when I was down in Bosnia.

18 I'm now Lieutenant Colonel. My commander in Bosnia was Colonel.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. Then there is a mistake in the

20 transcript, because when the president asked you for your grade it is

21 stated that you said Colonel. I apologise, Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: No problem.

23 Q. Now, sir, let me turn then to the school in Vares beginning again

24 from the 26th of October 1993, where we left off. What steps -- or the

25 25th, I'm sorry, the 25th of October. What steps did you take to gain

Page 16346

1 access to the school where the detainees were being kept?

2 A. I remember when this platoon arrived at the morning of the 25, I

3 give them order to get down in Vares, so to say, open the road again, take

4 control over the city, and they do that. Then maybe 10.00 or something

5 like this they are reporting that they get down in Vares and they --

6 nobody was shooting against them. It was more or less very quiet. There

7 is no problem to use the road down. And they send one or two APCs down to

8 the check-point in south and back again. And after that we -- I have this

9 platoon outside the school where we have this prisoner what's mean at the

10 square, and I also arrived with one APC, and we try to use force to get

11 into the school, but it was a lot of HVO soldiers there, and -- and I take

12 a decision it was not to say the right time to use force because we wasn't

13 there to start fighting, and -- and it was also little bit bad position

14 for us. So we wait and put one APC outside the school and leave the area.

15 And the 26th, Sunday, we get into Stupni Do. If I remember right,

16 we also was allowed to visit the prison or in the school, and the officer

17 was Major Daniel Ekberg.

18 Q. And Lieutenant Colonel Birger did you visit any of the people in

19 the school?

20 A. Yes but it was some days later.

21 Q. Can you tell us what report you received from Major Ekberg

22 following his entry in the school on the 26th of October?

23 A. He described the situation as it was. They were sitting in

24 athletic hall around and they was all of them was more or less beaten up,

25 smashed in the head, in the face, and they was very afraid, and he talked

Page 16347

1 to them and tell them that now, the word now what's going on inside this

2 school, and we do everything to stop what's going on here and try to help

3 you to get out from the school.

4 Q. Do you recall, sir, what he reported to you about the conditions

5 in the school and the conditions of the people who were kept in the

6 school?

7 A. Yes. We understand that it was maybe policemen who was there, but

8 we also understand that the people who beat them up was not the policemen,

9 it was young boys who came out, get in and smash them and beaten them up

10 and leave again. And we also have observed that the day before, that is

11 to say traffic in and out of different persons, young boys.

12 So the situation was very bad, and we was afraid they also killed

13 people there, but we don't know in this -- this time we don't know if

14 somebody have been killed.

15 Q. Do you recall whether you received any reports about the number of

16 people who were being kept in the school?

17 A. Yeah. We -- we -- I have -- as I said before, it was 233, 233

18 people there, and we -- maybe we couldn't say it was so many now there,

19 but it was more than hundreds of people. It was a lot of people inside.

20 Exactly I don't remember if we know how many inside the school.

21 Q. Now, Lieutenant Colonel Birger, do you recall the date that you

22 personally went into the school?

23 A. Yeah. It was some days later, and I don't really remember exactly

24 the day, but I remember this day all forces from HVO have leaved Vares,

25 leaved the city. We have information that 27 of the prisoner was moved,

Page 16348

1 and -- and -- and -- no, I'm sorry. I'm going to -- to -- one or two days

2 before.

3 When I was there in the beginning, I -- the first time I was in

4 the school it -- they have moved the prisoners so -- to another school.

5 We call it that the south school, and it was south of the city, south part

6 of the city, close to the Catholic church. And I remember also that I was

7 in a mass meeting with commander of Bobovac Brigade. That mean

8 operational officer. And he allow -- he get permission us because we was

9 allowed to get inside the school but only to visit very, short time look

10 and talk to the prisoners, and then we get out again. I don't really

11 remember which day but I think it was somewhere last day in October.

12 Q. Can you -- can you just -- sorry to interrupt, sir. Can you tell

13 us what you saw on that first occasion when you went there?

14 A. Yeah. We could see the same what we have seen before. They have

15 been beaten up. In the face you could see. Blue eyes, and scars and so

16 on. Blood. They turn off the light so we have to use our hand lights.

17 And up, I want to get upstairs. First they said no, but we discussed with

18 them and we walked up. It was me and one military policeman from my

19 battalion. And we could observe in one room it was blood on the floor.

20 There was also blood in the corridor like you have drawn like a pencil,

21 but if you draw a dead animal, for example, if you draw that with blood

22 you could see some on the floor. It was the same in the stair. So we

23 understand that they have killed bodies. Somebody -- or they have been

24 beaten them up and take them through the corridor out.

25 I also observed that it was -- we -- we ask them. We know, we

Page 16349

1 have information about it 7 -- 27 prisoners is very, very bad. "Where

2 they have these prisoners?" They said, "No, no, they are here." But we

3 could -- we understand that it wasn't like this. So downstairs I could

4 see a door of iron, and I said I want to get inside there and take my lamp

5 and look there, but they stopped me and said, "No, no, there is nothing."

6 And I stopped because I think it was right because there was a lot of bad

7 things lying down there, they haven't used this door for a long time.

8 And some days later we have information about that this 7 -- 27

9 prisoners was down in an old police station down in the south part of

10 Vares. So we -- we observed in the area and tried to find out which house

11 it was, and -- and -- and one day I think it was -- it was this day what

12 the HVO -- the Bobovac Brigade had leaved Vares, and I think it was the

13 3rd, maybe, of November. It was the beginning of November. They leaved,

14 but they -- this morning they also burned their headquarter, Bobovac

15 Brigade, and the town -- city was empty of people. Nobody was outside.

16 There was no soldier there. We could hear some single shooting.

17 We won't down to this place called Vares-Majdan, maybe what's the

18 name, and we find this prisoner. They was outside the house. So we take

19 them with us and get up to the south school, and just before I came up

20 there my soldier had opened the school and prisoners was walking outside

21 together with family members. There was also some international media

22 there, and I ordered my soldiers to put up UN flag on the building and we

23 protect the building.

24 Q. And can you tell us -- you've mentioned this, events about the 3rd

25 of November, roughly, 1993. Can you tell us what else was happening in

Page 16350

1 the town of Vares?

2 A. Yes. Yes it was -- it was one house outside Vares was burning.

3 The Bobovac Brigade headquarter, the hotel, was burning. It was a little

4 fire also in the hospital in Vares. That was all. It was -- not much was

5 destroyed. It was -- it was only empty. No soldier there, no people was

6 outside.

7 Q. What caused these various fires that were burning?

8 A. I think -- I know that one of the families outside had tell me

9 before that, if I leave, I putting fire on my house. So I think it was

10 doing like this. Maybe in the hospital it was a normal accident to

11 have -- it was firing there. I don't know.

12 Q. What about the Bobovac Brigade?

13 A. Bobovac Brigade the evening before I was there because I have been

14 at a meeting up with the deputy commander of the 2nd BH corps in -- I

15 think it was north of Bobovac Brigade's area. And I have also message in

16 a letter to the -- to the leadership of Bobovac Brigade that came here

17 tomorrow as friends or be a part of 2nd Corps. No negotiations. And --

18 but when I came down to the Bobovac Brigade this evening, it was dark. It

19 was hundred of civilians outside, refugees, so to say, and when I came

20 inside this building it was no commanders there. It was only what I

21 called before, the security officer. He was a little drunk. The

22 people -- soldiers inside there was drinking, and they was burning papers.

23 And next morning it was the whole building on fire.

24 Q. And just to complete this story, sir, what was the next event of

25 any great significance in the town of Vares after the 3rd of November,

Page 16351

1 1993?

2 A. It was the morning, next morning, very early. The next morning we

3 have information it was forces from the BH army coming from south, and it

4 was some -- also this morning it was some international media team who was

5 leaving my camp, and they came back after some hours or something like

6 this and tell me that they have been looting by -- they take the food and

7 so on. It was soldiers from the BH army, and they was shooting and

8 destroying when we came into the city. So I take one platoon and one --

9 APCs for my -- as my commanding APCs and get down. And just when we came

10 in front of the square where the mayor house is, what I described before

11 where we also have the first school and the police station, I stopped

12 there, take out my -- my three APCs like a shield, get out and get in

13 front of the soldiers. They came in two lines more or less like in good

14 infantry in this kind of fighting, and there was cross shooting up into

15 the windows and so on and I tried to stop them because there was no

16 necessary to shooting. There were no soldiers there, they only destroy

17 the houses.

18 Q. Let me interrupt you there, sir. How many people were left in

19 Vares at this point in time when the ABiH forces entered from the south?

20 A. I -- what I can understand it was thousands of Croats who have

21 leaved. And many of them was down in Dastansko but I also think many have

22 leaved the Serbia area down to Kiseljak.

23 Q. Now, let me just in the couple of minutes left for this evening

24 ask you about recording of what happened with respect to your unit. Did

25 you keep a personal diary or was there a unit diary that was kept?

Page 16352

1 A. Yeah. Every day we was writing down everything in papers. We

2 signed everything. We send out a patrol, it was signed down. If I gave

3 an order, it was written down. Everything what we do, everything what we

4 observed, everything what's happening was written down in a paper. And

5 in -- when we was down there, my operational officer start written a diary

6 of the company, and he had start already when we was in Denmark, and he

7 finish it when we came home to Sweden.

8 Q. And what was done with that diary when it was completed in

9 Sweden --

10 A. He show me that and I also find somebody -- something I think was

11 not really correct, so I correct so that you have written this and this.

12 And it was not exactly written exactly what's happening. It was more a

13 less a summary for every day.

14 Q. Was this an official document?

15 A. No. It's only for the soldiers and officers in the company as a

16 memory of the time in Bosnia.

17 Q. And what happened to the official logbooks of the unit?

18 A. What I can understand they sent to -- we have them in -- in

19 Sweden. We take them every month for something like this, but I don't

20 really exactly where they are.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I would require

22 approximately 15 minutes tomorrow morning simply to go through about 10

23 documents with the witness and then that would complete the

24 examination-in-chief, but I don't believe we could even start that

25 efficiently at this point in time.

Page 16353

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Well, it's time to stop.

2 It's almost 7.00 p.m. As you know, we're sitting in the morning this

3 week, so we will resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m. Thank you.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of March,

6 2007, at 9.00 a.m.