1 Tuesday, 1 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Today is the 1st of May. My greetings to all the people in the

11 courtroom, the Prosecution Bench, and the Defence counsel, and the

12 accused.

13 As you know, we are going to have a witness over three days this

14 week. The Trial Chamber therefore counted four hours for the Prosecution,

15 same amount of time for the Defence counsel, among which one hour for

16 Mr. Pusic. In other words, the remaining three hours will be spread among

17 the other accused. So this is the way the proceedings are going to

18 unfold.

19 We're going to bring in the witness for him or her to make the

20 solemn declaration.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 WITNESS: ALIJA LIZDE

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'm going

25 to first check that you can hear me in your own language. If this is so,

1 say you understand me.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have understood you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have been called

4 as a witness by the Prosecution, and before I ask you to make your solemn

5 declaration for the record, I'd like you to state your first name,

6 surname, and date of birth.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Alija Lizde, the 1st of September,

8 1959.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation,

10 sir?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a journalist, graduated from the

12 faculty.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For which newspaper do you work?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a private radio station.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Therefore, you work

16 in the media, in the radio. What is the name of your private radio

17 station, in case the Judges want to listen to you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radio Stari Most, meaning Old

19 Bridge.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Radio Stari Most.

21 Sir, have you had an opportunity to testify before a national or

22 international Tribunal as to the facts that happened in your country or is

23 this the first time you're going to testify?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I'm

25 testifying.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn

2 declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please sit

6 down.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, a few words by way of

9 explanation as to the way the hearing is going to take place. It is a

10 hearing devoted to your testimony over several days. First you're going

11 to be put questions by the Prosecution. You must have met some

12 representatives of the OTP yesterday or this morning or over the weekend,

13 I don't know exactly, and the OTP representative is going to ask questions

14 of you, and you will have to answer them.

15 Once this stage is over, it may take several hours, and there may

16 also be documents that are going to be submitted to you by the Prosecutor.

17 We have a series of documents, seven in all right now. They're supposed

18 to be submitted to you to elicit some comments from you on them. So once

19 this phase is over, the Defence counsel, who are on your left, or the

20 accused themselves, may ask questions of you as part of what is called the

21 cross-examination, and during cross-examination some documents may be

22 presented to you.

23 You have four Judges in front you. They, too, at any time can ask

24 questions, but for a while now we have thought it better, for convenience

25 purposes, not to ask questions right now. We prefer to ask questions once

1 everybody's asked their own questions, unless it is absolutely necessary

2 to intervene.

3 Try to provide clear answers, because you know these are oral

4 proceedings, and everything you say is going to be recorded on this

5 transcript you have on the monitor in English, and it is scroll --

6 unscrolling as everybody is speaking. So do endeavour to provide clear

7 answers.

8 If you fail to understand a question, please do not hesitate. Ask

9 the person asking the question to rephrase it. As a rule, we have a break

10 every 90 minutes. We break for 20 minutes for technical reasons, and also

11 to give everybody a rest.

12 This being said, if at any time you feel the need to have a rest

13 or if you don't feel well, there again do not hesitate to tell us so,

14 because then I can stop the proceedings straight away, should this be

15 necessary.

16 So this is just in a few words the way the questions are going to

17 be put to you, and this is the way the hearing is going to take place.

18 You have sworn, made a solemn declaration to tell the truth, which

19 means that you are not allowed to say -- to tell any lie. Now you are a

20 witness of this Tribunal, and this must guide your answers. But you

21 understand this because you are a journalist, and as such you're bound to

22 have been interested in proceedings and this type of proceedings.

23 I don't know who's going to be examining you. Yes, this is

24 Mr. Poryvaev.

25 Good afternoon, sir.

1 MR. PORYVAEV: Good afternoon, sir. Thank you very much.

2 Examination by Mr. Poryvaev:

3 Q. Mr. Lizde, I would just like to remind you that the other day we

4 agreed upon that you will not speak too fast. As a professional

5 journalist, of course you speak very fast, and don't please make a lot of

6 trouble to our interpreters here in the courtroom.

7 And then another issue that I would like to clarify. Again during

8 our conversation you told me that you did testify once before a Sweden

9 court. Could you just inform briefly the Trial Chamber in what kind of

10 proceedings did you participate in Sweden?

11 A. I wasn't in Sweden, but I testified by videolink from Sarajevo. I

12 forgot to say that. I was going to say that by the by, but what I thought

13 I was being asked is whether I had ever testified before here in this

14 court, in this Tribunal.

15 Q. Did you testify about the crimes committed in Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Relevant to what area?

19 A. Well, the stories linked to Dretelj.

20 Q. Thank you very much for the moment. If it's necessary, we'll come

21 back to this issue later.

22 MR. PORYVAEV: With your leave, Your Honour, I'll try to pass

23 through some background issues by leading our witness. There is nothing

24 special in that.

25 Q. Mr. Lizde, is it correct that before the Serb aggression started

1 you were a journalist writing for the publishing house Vjesnik in Zagreb?

2 Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When the fight against the Serbs started, you -- in April 1992,

5 you joined the Mostar Battalion as a foot soldier. I mean the Mostar

6 Battalion of ABiH; correct?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. On the 30th of June -- 13th of June you were badly wounded - 13th

9 of June, sorry, yes - on the front lines, and --

10 A. The 30th [as interpreted]. The 30th.

11 Q. Okay. 1992, and were taken to hospital where you stayed until the

12 16th of August, 1992; correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did you go back to your military unit after you had left the

15 hospital?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What kind of job or service were you given there, if any?

18 A. Well, I began working in the information and propaganda field of

19 the 1st Mostar Brigade.

20 Q. What exactly was your position called?

21 A. At the beginning I was just a member of the information and

22 propaganda service of the 1st Mostar Brigade, and later on assistant to

23 the commander of the IPS of the 4th Corps.

24 Q. In some other documents your position is called as the head of

25 information and perhaps. It would be also correct?

1 A. Well, you could put it that way. It's a question of

2 interpretation, how you interpret, things. Head or assistant to the

3 commander, that kind of thing.

4 Q. Okay. Did you remain in the same position when the 4th Corps was

5 established in November 1992?

6 A. I was appointed there in the 4th Corps to that position.

7 Q. I mean the head of information and propaganda. Yes?

8 A. Yes. I was appointed as head in the 4th Corps. But in the 1st

9 Mostar Brigade I was just a member of the management of the IPS, the

10 Information and Propaganda Service. I wasn't the head in the 1st Mostar

11 Brigade. I was the head in the 4th Corps.

12 Q. Okay. And who was your immediate commander? In the 4th Corps, I

13 mean.

14 A. General Arif Pasalic, the late General Arif Pasalic.

15 Q. Did you continue any kind of job as a journalist for some military

16 newspapers at that period of time when you were within the Mostar Brigade

17 and then within the 4th Corps?

18 A. Yes. I worked for Mostarsko Jutro, which is the newspaper of the

19 1st Mostar Brigade. Later on I worked at radio Bosnia-Herzegovina in the

20 Mostar studio and in the Hercegovacki Vojnik or Herzegovinian soldier

21 which is a paper of the 4th Corps of the BH army.

22 Q. Mr. Lizde, did you take any part in the establishment of the War

23 Mostar Studio in Mostar?

24 A. Not directly, no.

25 Q. But do you know why was that -- there was studio established?

1 A. The studio was established because in Mostar in 1992 there was one

2 radio station which was called Radio Mostar, only one, and very shortly it

3 changed its name into Croatian Radio Mostar.

4 Q. But was it only the matter of name or the context of the programme

5 also changed?

6 A. Well, with the change of name, the context changed, too. The

7 contents changed, too, very shortly afterwards. They only used one

8 language which they called the Croatian Krugovalna Postaja Mostar. They

9 changed the contents, I mean the information that they put out that you

10 could hear, the music that they played. And with the establishment of the

11 war studio of Bosnia-Herzegovina, something else was formed which could be

12 termed multi-cultural for Mostar and for Bosnia-Herzegovina as an a whole.

13 Q. And could you tell us who was -- who were the people who actually

14 set up the War Mostar Studio?

15 A. As far as the establish. The War Studio Mostar itself is

16 concerned, I think that in large measure this was a political decision to

17 set up this war studio. When I say political decision, it was of the

18 leaders of the SDA party principally amongst whom as the extended arm you

19 had Dzemal Hamzic, the journalist, Asim Manjgo as well, and perhaps Omer

20 Vatric, perhaps Sahovic, that team of people, professional journalist.

21 And Asim Manjgo who worked in radio Mostar. When this chained its name to

22 the Croatian radio he was let go. He was dismissed. And then he took

23 part in the form's and establishment of this other radio station, and I

24 was a member of the editorial board, if I can put it that way.

25 Q. Very briefly. What was the purpose of setting up this

1 alternative, the war studio?

2 A. Well, the purpose was that the citizens of Mostar could hear

3 another truth, because in Mostar there were many people who had mixed

4 marriages. The majority of the population were Bosniaks, and the idea

5 was -- in its inception was to cater to this. And on the editorial board

6 there were both Serbs and Croats, and we wanted to fight for Bosnia and

7 its multi-culturalism, which is what the situation is like today as well.

8 Q. Mr. Lizde, did you retain your membership in the 4th Corps when

9 you became member of the war studio?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you remain in the same position as the head of information

12 and propaganda?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Did you have any military rank?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you wear military uniform?

17 A. From time to time. Actually, mostly I did, yes.

18 Q. Just very briefly, was -- what was your particular line of duties?

19 In the radio station, I mean, in the war studio station.

20 A. In the war studio I was the editor of the information and

21 political programme. That means I dealt with the news, the news bulletin,

22 the daily news bulletin, and I had a few other programmes where I would

23 invite guests to speak. So these were daily duties within the frameworks

24 of the information programme.

25 Q. What sources of information did you have?

1 A. In view of the situation in town and the media blockade,

2 especially from that other part of Sarajevo, we had a lot of young

3 associate journalists who went round town. It was a local radio station.

4 You could just hear it in -- pick it up in Mostar. And Slobodna Dalmacija

5 and some other newspapers and people who came from there, who came to

6 Mostar from there. And you could watch Croatian television mostly. But

7 you could say that the number of information that came in was selected by

8 our young journalists who were in town every day collecting information.

9 Q. Was it -- was it possible for your young journalists to go just

10 outside of Mostar for collecting information?

11 A. Well, that wasn't possible. Almost nobody could leave without

12 having a lot of papers and permits. And this applied to journalists too.

13 If anybody did go, then that would be people from the editorial offices.

14 So that I, for example, once went to Prozor.

15 Q. Okay. Let's stop a little bit. We'll go back to Prozor a little

16 bit later.

17 Did you have -- I mean, now talking about the war studio. Did you

18 have any contacts with ABiH command?

19 A. Well, we did have contacts. First of all, we were physically

20 close by, just some 10 metres away from the commander's office, for

21 example.

22 Q. Where did you have your headquarters? I mean your particular

23 place.

24 A. The radio was in the Vranica building, which is where the command

25 of the 1st Mostar Brigade was of the 4th Corps. The 1st Mostar Brigade

1 was in the cellar and on the first floor in a hallway, at the end of the

2 hallway there was the radio and then in that part of the hallway as well

3 you had the 4th Corps command HQ.

4 Q. Did you ever take interview from Mr. Arif Pasalic?

5 A. Yes, on several occasions. Yes.

6 Q. Was your war studio recognised by the official HVO authorities?

7 A. No. We did not receive regular reports that our colleagues at the

8 Croatian radio station got. Arif Pasalic was not able to be a guest on

9 Croatian radio, for example, so we were sort of working underground, if I

10 can it that way, or we were considered illegal as far as they were

11 concerned.

12 Q. You just told the Chamber that on some -- at some point you went

13 to Prozor for collecting some information. First of all, when did it take

14 place?

15 A. In October 1992.

16 Q. And --

17 A. I think it was on the 21st, actually. And I went to Prozor after

18 a press conference, which was held daily in the Projektant building on the

19 premises there. When the porte-parole for the Croatian Defence counsel

20 Mr. Bozic Rajic and Mr. Srecko Vucina tried to convince the journalists,

21 and there was some -- there was some information to the effect that

22 something had happened. There had been some sort of conflict and that

23 there were problems in Prozor, but they said that nothing had happened in

24 Prozor, and if any of the journalists wanted to go they could do so. I

25 expressed the desire to go with a colleague of mine, a photographer and a

1 driver, and we received a permit, a piece of paper to go, and I used the

2 Vjesnik accreditation I had and we went it to Prozor.

3 Q. Did you report to the HVO authorities in Prozor, I mean reported

4 your arrival?

5 A. Well, we had -- there were a lot of -- there was a lot of control

6 and checking before we actually entered Prozor. We were stopped by the

7 police of the Croatian Defence Council. We arrived in Prozor, which

8 looked terrible. So we went to the HVO headquarters which was the sole

9 institution at the time. There were no other organs of power and

10 authority. So as we passed through the town we could see houses were

11 still on fire, and you could see traces of tanks having passed through the

12 town, and what struck me first was that across the -- opposite the mosque

13 there was a fire brigade station. That's what they told me. It was a

14 nice glass building with large blue letters. It said, "Ustaski Dom."

15 There were a lot of soldiers with red bands.

16 Q. Thank you. Did you manage to see the local Bosniaks on that day?

17 A. Well, I didn't know who the Bosniaks were and who the Croats were;

18 I couldn't differentiate. But there wasn't anyone there. The streets

19 were empty except for the soldiers. There was absolutely nobody that you

20 could see. It was only later when I contacted the commander, he didn't

21 want to receive us, actually, he was in another building, I think in the

22 Unis factory building or something like that, but he assigned a man to us

23 who said that we could stay in Prozor for an hour, that he would take us

24 around and he would tell it us who -- what we could film and who we could

25 talk to. We were assigned this man, and that then we would be free to go.

1 So we set off, and our escort took us to the -- took me to the

2 fire brigade station, and I asked him whether we could go down there where

3 the Ustashas are, and he said, "There are no Ustashas here." And I said,

4 "Well, I saw the sign up saying 'Ustaski Dom,'" and he said, "Well, let's

5 go down there." So we went down and the soldiers saw on my ID card that

6 my name was Alija, but they said, "Well, you can go ahead and film. There

7 are no more Turkish bullets in Prozor. You can see what the Ustashas are

8 doing." And they said that the Bosniak civilians were all taken to a

9 school in Rumboki, which is close to Prozor, another place close to

10 Prozor, and we managed to make a few shots, take -- take some photographs.

11 They allowed me to cross over to the mosque to ask -- to talk to the man

12 there, but he didn't want to talk to me because he didn't know who I was

13 and he didn't believe me when I told him. So the whole situation was

14 quite terrible to behold.

15 Q. Mr. Lizde, did you draft your, let's say, future broadcast about

16 events in Prozor?

17 A. Well, of course. My desire to go to Prozor in the first place was

18 caused by my desire to put together a story, to get out the truth and to

19 see what really happened. Unfortunately my report, my footage, was never

20 aired.

21 Q. What happened? Why they didn't put your information on the air?

22 A. It was never aired for the simple reason that the next day at the

23 time when our main -- the main news bulletin was supposed to be aired, the

24 police chief of the Croatian Defence Council, Zeljko Dzidic, nicknamed

25 Dzida, walked into our studio all dressed up and armed. He brought on him

1 a piece of paper that he gave to me to read out loud on the air. That was

2 at the beginning of the news bulletin. They knew that the news bulletin

3 would be aired at 1600 hours that day. It was right in the middle of the

4 radio programme when the news bulletin was about to be announced. I was

5 given this slip of paper, and I'll tell you what it said: "By decision of

6 the Croatian Defence Council, the programme of radio Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina Mostar wartime studio is banned or abolished until further

8 notice."

9 There was nothing I could do. The announcer was there and the

10 sound engineer was there. We were the only people. So I just read out

11 this slip of paper and I told my listeners, "You'll probably hear from us

12 soon again." I remember full well this was the last bit of news I read on

13 that day, the very last sentence. I read the news about the curfew in

14 Mostar, that from now on it would be at 1800 hours and no longer at 2000

15 hours as it used to be. We just switched off all of our equipment and

16 that was the reason we didn't continue to air the report from Prozor that

17 we had prepared.

18 Q. Did you see by whom that paper produced you was signed?

19 A. I can't remember. I do know about this sentence that said that

20 this was something that was being done by a decision of the Croatian

21 Defence Council. I have no idea who it was signed by. Dzidic is the

22 person who brought this to us, and he was the military police chief. So

23 it was pretty clear who could have possibly issued him that paper.

24 We were scared as well, believe me.

25 Q. Sorry. Did the HVO authorities represented explain to you why

1 your radio station was closed down?

2 A. He provided no explanation whatsoever, but he did bring along this

3 slip of paper and the alleged explanation was that the radio frequency

4 being used by us, 101,7 megahertz, was interfering with some other

5 military frequencies apparently being used at the time by the Croatian

6 Defence Council. So they had this interference with their communications

7 system as the stated explanation for interrupting our work. But I still

8 have my own private radio station to this very day operating at the same

9 frequency.

10 Q. Okay. Did you undertake, and you and your staff manage to open

11 the war studio?

12 A. Not me personally. I -- I did speak to the commander, needless to

13 say, but the decision to open the war studio was made at another level, at

14 a political level or a military level. There was some negotiations afoot,

15 so among later we resumed work as usual. Unfortunately, I had no bearing

16 on that, nor did the commander for that matter, for the radio to resume

17 normal work.

18 Q. When you resumed your -- the war radio station, did you use the

19 same frequency?

20 A. Yes, the same one. I still do, as a matter of fact.

21 Q. Mr. Lizde, were you ever arrested?

22 A. Yes, twice.

23 Q. When?

24 A. On the 7th of May and on the 9th of May.

25 Q. Okay. What happened on the 7th of May? How were you arrested and

1 by whom?

2 A. My flat was near the Vranica building, the distance being maybe

3 between 500 and 1.000 metres between the two. So halfway between the two,

4 near the largest building in Mostar, which we normally refer to as

5 Mostarka, and this was about midday I was in uniform and I was just

6 walking down the street. It was a perfect sunny day. A civilian vehicle

7 pulled up, a jeep of some kind or something like that. The vehicle

8 disgorged two armed men carrying rifles. They pushed me against the body

9 of the car and bundled me into the car while pointing their rifles against

10 my neck. They took me to the Dzemal Bijedic university hall, which is

11 just outside the mechanical engineering -- faculty of mechanical

12 engineering. They took all my documents off me, all the sets of keys I

13 had and everything. They opened the door to an auxiliary room, and they

14 pushed me down a flight of stairs. So I came tumbling down to the cellar

15 down there when I saw a young man in civilian clothes I knew him name I

16 recognised him. I asked him, "What's going on?"

17 Q. Mr. Lizde, were you alone at the mechanical faculty? I mean,

18 arrested person.

19 A. No. I just saw a young man downstairs. Half an hour perhaps an

20 hour later this room, this cellar where we were was filled with civilians.

21 Another young man turned up, Himzo Dzonko, in uniform. Within an hour the

22 room was full.

23 Q. Did you see any high ranking official at the mechanical faculty

24 whom you considered to be in charge of the building?

25 A. I don't really know, but Mr. Berislav Pusic came down to see us

1 later on. He walked up to me and asked what I was doing there. So I

2 said, "I should be asking you the same thing. What am I doing here?" And

3 then he said the army had arrested some of their men. So they decided to

4 gather a few of us to have us exchanged. He said, "It wasn't us who

5 arrested you. It was the army. But you will eventually be exchanged."

6 He said something to that effect.

7 Q. Did you know him before?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you meet him during the war? I mean already in 1993.

10 A. Maybe just before my arrest. I had met Mr. Pusic in Jablanica. I

11 think it was the SpaBat that had organised a meeting for the commissions

12 for exchange of prisoners, the Croatian Defence Council, and the Bosniak

13 side for prisoners from Jablanica, Konjic from, that area. He was there

14 on behalf of the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council, and I was there in my

15 capacity as a journalist. The head of the Bosnian delegation was Mr. Asim

16 Catic. So I did see him that one time in Jablanica. The meeting took

17 place in a tent of some kind. The meeting yielded no result, however. An

18 ambulance had arrived or something, but no agreement was reached, and that

19 was the one time that I saw him. I may have talked to him on the occasion

20 but I can't quite remember if I did or not.

21 I did know Mr. Pusic from before the war. He owned a business

22 near the Vjesnik building, so we sort of knew each other.

23 Q. When were you allowed to leave the mechanical faculty?

24 A. It was sometime that afternoon, 5.00, half past 5.00. There's one

25 thing I need to point out, though.

1 Q. Do you mean on the same day, on the 7th of May, yes?

2 A. Yes, yes, the same day. The same day. But let me just say this

3 because this is something that I have to say. Not a single young man, not

4 a single civilian that was brought to that cellar, not a single one was

5 brought there untouched, without being hit and beaten. There were people

6 bleeding. There were people who were bruised. It was between 5.00 and

7 5.30 that day that they gathered all of us. They had us lined up outside

8 the building. There is some kind of a corridor leading out of the

9 building. There were police all around, lads caring rifles, lads in

10 uniform. However, an order had just arrived for us to go back, apparently

11 because the army had failed to release those people that they had

12 previously arrested. So they just sent us back down to the cellar where

13 we stayed for perhaps another half hour. They eventually released, had us

14 all lined us up again, and let us go. They let us go out into the street

15 the distance being about 20 metres and we were free. The Vranica building

16 is under a kilometre away from the faculty building.

17 Q. Did you see Mr. Berislav Pusic on that day? I mean, later on the

18 following day?

19 A. Yes, I did. I did see him. On the next day outside a cafe. I

20 asked him to give me back my document. He said he'd then arrange for that

21 the next day. "No problem," he said.

22 I saw him outside this cafe. He was there with some lads. I

23 walked up to him. I said I wanted my documents and keys back, everything

24 that I'd had on me and that had been taken off me. He promised to give it

25 back to me, but so far I've received nothing from him.

1 Q. Okay. That's about your first arrest and you just told us that

2 you were arrested also on the 9th of May. What happened to you on the 9th

3 of May? Of course, 1993.

4 A. Of course. On the 9th of May, at about 3.00 a.m., about a dozen

5 armed police officers came to my flat. They told me to get my stuff, the

6 basic necessities they said, and come with them. My wife remained behind

7 in the flat with our two children. My son was five at the time, and my

8 daughter was three.

9 There was no choice. I was off. I put on my civilian jacket and

10 off I was with the police.

11 Q. Where did they take you?

12 A. They took me to the police station. It was at the time, and it

13 still is, it's right next to the Vranica building.

14 Q. Do you mean civilian police station, MUP station?

15 A. Yes, yes, yes.

16 Q. Did they interrogate you there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who interrogated you?

19 A. People in uniforms. It was in a room. It was as soon as I came

20 there. I think one of them was called Juric, but I can't be certain. In

21 a way they wanted me to agree to work on Croatian radio. I said I'd

22 rather not because I didn't think I would live up to the expectations and

23 the professional standards of that particular radio station. That was my

24 answer. I'm not sure why they made the offer at the time in the way that

25 they did, but I did sort of -- of put the pieces together later on.

1 Q. Were you in any way mistreated at the MUP station on the 9th of

2 May?

3 A. Certainly.

4 Q. What happened to you?

5 A. Well, between the 9th and the 13th of May I stayed inside that

6 building. Half the time I was handcuffed to a chair. I was beaten. I

7 was mistreated. I was spat at. I was abused verbally. The worst day was

8 the day when one of their own officers was killed, a police chief of some

9 sort. His name was Lugonja. There were other people up there in that

10 corridor. I was in the office for a while, and then they took me out into

11 the corridor, saying that we'd all be killed. It certainly looked that

12 way at the time. It was utter chaos. There was a lot of shooting. There

13 was a lot of noise. It was mayhem.

14 Q. Did you see any other people who were arrested on the 9th of May

15 and taken to the MUP station?

16 A. I don't know where or when they were arrested. I just realised

17 there were a lot of people in that corridor.

18 Q. Did you know any of them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. For example?

21 A. Well, for example, Vlado Fink, Nino Sefic, Zijad Emerovic [as

22 interpreted]. Later Selma Dizdar, Bojana Mujanovic.

23 Q. We -- I noticed a mistake. Zijad Demirovic?

24 A. Zijad Demirovic.

25 Q. Okay. Bojana Mujanovic and who else that you remember?

1 A. I remember those three girls who were brought in three days later

2 on the 11th, I think. Bojana Mujanovic, Selma Dizdar, Mirna Picuga, they

3 were all outside in the corridor, and Dzemal Amdic [phoen] came later on.

4 Q. Dzemal --

5 A. Dzemal Hamzic.

6 Q. Dzemal Hamzic was the same as the chief in your studio.

7 A. Yes. Dzemal Hamzic was the director of our radio station.

8 Q. And just one last question relevant to this topic. And what

9 happened to the war studio on the 9th of May?

10 A. Well, it stopped operating on the 9th of May. A shell fell on

11 that building and hit the radio receiver that we had, and that was the end

12 of it. The radio, that was history.

13 Q. But did you have any reserve station before May 1993? I mean

14 reserve station of the war studio.

15 A. Not as far as I know. Or at least not that I knew of.

16 Q. Okay. And where were you taken to on the 13th of May?

17 A. On the 13th of May or, rather, that night they took us out of the

18 MUP building, the police station, and placed us all in a police van, a

19 paddy wagon. We stayed for a brief while near the MUP building. They put

20 the 15 or 20 of us in to that van and drove us to Ljubuski. We didn't

21 know where we were on our way to, but once we arrived I realised that we

22 were now in Ljubuski.

23 Q. And to what place in Ljubuski were you brought?

24 A. The van pulled over. We could hear voices inside. We didn't see

25 anything. You couldn't actually see inside the van, and we didn't see

1 where we were, but as soon as the door opened we saw lads in black

2 uniforms, and it said on these uniforms, "Ljubuski military police." They

3 took us inside this building. The building is still a police station. We

4 were in this corridor --

5 Q. Just to -- you said that they took us from MUP station to

6 Ljubuski. Whom do you mean by who -- "they"? Who escorted you to

7 Ljubuski from Mostar?

8 A. Police. Police. The same people who had previously brought me to

9 the police station. Police officers. I'm not sure how many vehicles

10 there were ahead of us, but there was a police officer on the front seat

11 in the driver's seat and we were on the back seat. It was the military

12 police or just plain police. They had police uniforms on. I don't think

13 you could possibly expect to find anybody else in the police station,

14 could you.

15 Q. Okay. So you were brought to Ljubuski, and in particular to the

16 police station, military police station.

17 And now I would like Witness to be shown Exhibit P 090 -- sorry, P

18 0 -- P 09089.

19 Mr. Lizde, do you recognise this drawing?

20 A. Yes, I do. That I produced this drawing myself.

21 Q. My question --

22 A. I did.

23 Q. And who performed the text in English?

24 A. The people who interviewed me. Investigators, I suppose,

25 interpreters, whoever.

1 Q. And what is --

2 A. I drew this.

3 Q. And what is depicted there on this drawing?

4 A. This is the entrance to the military police building. This is the

5 door that we were taken through. It was a two-storey building in

6 Ljubuski. This door to the yard and all those of us who were brought

7 there --

8 Q. Don't hurry. Perhaps you should take a marker, and since there

9 are no numbers on this drawing, I think that it would be nice to have some

10 positions here identified and marked.

11 It doesn't the matter. Maybe -- Witness, do you prefer to do it

12 on -- e-court is better, yeah.

13 A. Sure.

14 Q. Yes. Just put number 1 and circle it.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. What is depicted there?

17 A. This is the entrance, and this is the -- where we were first

18 brought when they -- when they took us inside the building.

19 Q. Okay. And what -- what happened at the military police station?

20 Did they register you?

21 A. They had us all lined up against that wall over there when we

22 arrived. They were in black uniforms, and they separated off from our

23 group, a man named Rudolf Jozelic, a Croat, in put him in the middle of

24 that corridor. He was a pilot with the BH army.

25 They took everything off us, those who had something on them.

1 They took our watches off us, that sort of thing, all the rest. I later

2 learned that the name of this man was Ante Prlic. He beat Rudi, and half

3 an hour later he ordered them to take us to what he referred to as number

4 7. I didn't know what it was at the time, but I did learn about what they

5 meant later on.

6 Q. Could you find your cell here on this drawing, cell number 7?

7 A. Right there. Shall I place a number there?

8 Q. Yes, number 2.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. And just to then finalise with this drawing, just a couple of more

11 questions.

12 The cell next to yours, that cell and over here I see "Sovici

13 detainees" there, the text. What could you explain about this, let's say

14 text "Sovici detainees," and cell number 8?

15 A. The next morning when they allowed us to use the toilet that was

16 nearby, this toilet was meant to be used by -- by the many people who were

17 there, they told us in the corridor that the people from Sovici were there

18 and that there were about 300 or 400 of those. This is a village close to

19 Jablanica, and nobody knew at one time where those people were. So they

20 were there, and some people from Stolac were there in a different part of

21 the building.

22 Q. Just put on -- number 3 on cell 8. No, cell 8.

23 A. I forgot. Sorry.

24 Q. This is, for the record, the cell where people from Sovici were

25 detained.

1 And now once you showed us a cell on the right side, and the -- I

2 see here, "5-6 from Stolac." What do you mean by this text?

3 A. Five to six, yes. Five to six. This is where we found detainees

4 who had already been there for a month. The political prisoners from

5 Stolac, the prisoners of the SDA, the Merhamet. There were some elderly

6 people, two professors. They were detained. They were serving a sentence

7 of sorts. I don't know what. They had been tried in Stolac for their

8 political activity or something of the sort.

9 Q. Please put number 4 and encircle this, and circle the rest, number

10 2 and number 3.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And at the bottom of the drawing or this page please put your

13 initials and today's date, 1st of May.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll give an IC number to this

15 document.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will become IC 529.

17 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, since we are

18 already -- you have already heard a number of witnesses from Ljubuski, I

19 will not go through some issues already known to you and to everybody.

20 It's maybe enough to make some conclusions.

21 I would like to ask witness about some events in which he was

22 directly involved and about his experience in Ljubuski.

23 Q. Mr. Lizde, were you ever mistreated at the Ljubuski military

24 remand or prison?

25 A. I was. I was mistreated on four occasions. I was beaten.

1 Q. Yes. Do you remember the approximate period of time, or it's

2 impossible?

3 A. I was in Ljubuski between the 13th of May and the 30th of May,

4 from the moment I arrived until the moment I was released. With three

5 other colleagues of mine I was forbidden to leave the cell and go

6 anywhere. And we suffered daily interrogation and beatings.

7 Q. Who was -- who were persons who beat you up?

8 A. The first were Enes Stakic [as interpreted] and Momir -- Romeo

9 Blazevic. They were the two who arrived in Ljubuski. They arrived one

10 morning maybe two or three days after our own arrival in Ljubuski. I know

11 that when they entered the prison's yard they asked from the guards to

12 release those men from Mostar, as they put it. And then the police

13 officers who were in the prison opened the door and brought us out into

14 the yard where they were waiting for us.

15 Q. Please, Ernest Takac?

16 A. Ernest Takac.

17 Q. That's page 26, line 4. And Romeo Blazevic.

18 And were they dressed in military uniforms?

19 A. Yes, they wore military uniforms. Ernest as we were on our way

20 out looked at all of us and then he addressed me by saying, "You, beard,

21 are here as well," because I sported a beard and then they took me to one

22 side. Romeo took a shovel and hit Rudi on the head so heavily that for

23 the first time in my life I saw a man without a nose. He actually pushed

24 his nose into his skull with that shovel. I was standing on the side and

25 they were ill-treating the others. They were spitting on them.

1 The policeman who had opened the door and took us into the

2 courtyard was standing next to me and told me that he would kill me and

3 torch me as soon as it got dark because I, according to him, was a

4 sharpshooter. I was threatened anyway.

5 Then Ernest came and interrupted all that with a few blows, and

6 then he told me that there were no longer any Muslims in Vjesnik. He knew

7 me from the press conferences, I suppose. He grabbed me by the neck and

8 told me, "I'm Srecko Vucina. Now you can put questions to me."

9 There was a lot of ill-treatment, and when they had enough, the

10 same policemen took us back into our cell, number 7.

11 Q. Okay. The next fact when they were beaten.

12 A. As I've already said that Vlado Fink, Rudolf Jozelic, and Abdul

13 Haris, and myself were banned from leaving the cell. Every day between 80

14 and 90 per cent of the prisoners were taken to the front lines for work.

15 They were taken to Neum. As far as I could tell from their stories they

16 were taken there to dig trenches, and they were also taken to Ljubuski to

17 work in the private fields as slaves.

18 When people came to visit those detainees, they would find the

19 four of us.

20 One day two lads arrived and they were looking for a pilot. One

21 of them had black buttons on his shirt. They were in uniforms. Later on

22 I learned that his family name was Hrkac and that his nickname was Zdrala,

23 and the other lad's nickname was Splico.

24 First they took Rudi out to that courtyard, and after a certain

25 while they re-entered the cell. They stood at the doorway and they asked

1 the journalist to come out. Dzemal Hamzic and I stood up, went to the

2 courtyard down the narrow corridor. To the left Rudi was lying on the

3 ground blood soaked. We didn't know whether he was alive. And when I

4 turned around I saw Dzemal lying on the ground. The guy with the black

5 button on the uniform had already hit him.

6 The blonde guy started hitting me next. They called him Splico.

7 I tried to stay on my feet, and I did not feel any pain at first. Then

8 the lad with the black button on his shirt approached me and hit me so

9 hard, but he also said, "Look at this guy. He's very strong. I can't

10 knock him over." But the beating was finished off by Splico, who was

11 probably in charge of me. And the other guy was sitting on a chair and

12 enjoying the scene. I can give you the details if you wish me to do so,

13 but in any case, it was a gruesome experience.

14 The military police that were in the building did not dare enter

15 the courtyard. I suppose that they must have been observing us from the

16 windows. And the two lads were probably re-educating us or something. I

17 don't know what the idea behind all the beating was.

18 I heard later on that the brother of the guy with the black button

19 had been killed about that time and that he was probably trying to

20 alleviate his pain or something. I don't know what.

21 Q. Did you -- yes. And the last fact, the fourth?

22 A. I would rather tell you about the third event first. When they

23 searched through our documents, they found some papers that I had written.

24 One morning they order all of us to come out into the courtyard. It was

25 rather early in the morning, and the prisoner psychology is rather

1 strange. We all -- all the time believed that there would be an exchange,

2 that we would be released. And that morning when we were all taken out,

3 we also heard that we would all be exchanged. However, when we entered

4 the courtyard, the -- the prison warden, Ante Prlic, and the number of

5 military policemen were standing facing us. We were lined up, and he was

6 holding some papers in his hands. He said, "Alija Lizde, step out from

7 the line."

8 I recognised all these papers. They were my notes that I was

9 making all this time.

10 One of the policemen by the name of Petkovic saw that I was a

11 journalist affiliated with the Zagreb-based Vjesnik. He came into my cell

12 two or three days into our stay there. Everybody had to stand up, and he

13 told me, "This guy here, he is a real genuine Ustasha. He worked for the

14 Ustasha papers." He asked me what I needed. I said I needed cigarettes

15 and a pencil. Every day he would come, bringing me cigarettes. But I was

16 under the impression that he did it secretly. Later on it turned out that

17 he had problems because of me. He had ended up in prison himself, but

18 I'll tell you about it later.

19 That's how I was able to make notes, because he had brought me a

20 pencil.

21 Mr. Prlic gave me a piece of paper to read from, and I was

22 confused that early in the morning. I didn't know what to read. And then

23 he snatched the piece of paper from me and read out the following

24 sentence: "Here I mostly speak to Vlado Fink. I was beaten, but they are

25 not even aware that they were hitting themselves. The longer I am here

1 the more proud am I of myself." And then a policeman took a pistol and

2 hit me on the head and threatened me that I would never leave this place

3 alive. And then he said to the other prisoners, "There you have him.

4 Because of him you won't have --"

5 Q. Yes, go. Finish this sentence, please.

6 A. [In English] Sorry. [Interpretation] He said to the prisoners

7 from Sovici, "Because of him, you will not be given food." They were even

8 prepared, I suppose they were, but then people from Mostar intervened --

9 actually, for two days I was punished. I had to pull weeds in the prison

10 perimeter or things like that.

11 Q. When talking about Blazevic, Hrkac, and Takac, I would like to

12 just clarify one issue. Did they belong to the staff of the Ljubuski

13 prison or not?

14 A. No, they did not work in the Ljubuski prison.

15 Q. So did you recount all the stories about Ljubuski, about your

16 beating, you being beaten?

17 A. No. And there's another one, a fourth one. The fourth one was

18 Petkovic's story that I have mentioned.

19 The guy, I suppose, was under a lot of pressure, and one day we

20 were lined up. We -- Rudi and I were taken out of the line. At the time

21 the military police wore yellow bands on their arms, and as they were

22 leaving for the front line they wore those bands on their sleeves.

23 Petrovic [Realtime transcript read in error "Petkovic"] first beat

24 Rudi, and then it was my turn to be beaten. He had learned who I was,

25 what my profession was. And at the end of all that he told me, "You have

1 greetings from Arif Pasalic." All the policemen were on the windows. And

2 I suppose when he did that, he reduced his own - how shall I put it? -

3 shame for having brought me cigarettes. He had to save his face in front

4 of them. That's why he beat me really heavily on that occasion.

5 Q. Please stop. There is a mistake in the text, in the transcript.

6 Just page 30, line 19, "Petkovic first beat Rudi." It was not Petrovic

7 but Petkovic.

8 A. Petrovic. It was the policeman Petrovic.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute, please. In

10 English we still have the mistake on screen. It's Petrovic and not

11 Petkovic that we should read.

12 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes, yes, Petrovic. Yes, now on page 34 and line 4

13 we have a rectification.

14 May I continue?

15 Q. Witness, were you interrogated while you were detained in

16 Ljubuski?

17 A. Yes, I was interrogated, quite often.

18 Q. When you -- you said that you stayed in Ljubuski as from 13th of

19 May until the end of May. That is the 30th of May, yes?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. And to where were you taken later, afterwards?

22 A. To Heliodrom, to the building of the central prison.

23 Q. You arrived at the end of May. Was the central prison full or

24 half full at that time?

25 A. When we were brought in front of the prison in the afternoon on

1 the 30th of May they lined us up. They counted heads. The first floor of

2 the prison was full. There were lots of heads behind of bars, and we were

3 accommodated on the second floor.

4 The cell where I was also full. Everything was full.

5 Q. Did you see representatives of the Red Cross at Heliodrom

6 compound?

7 A. I did at the Heliodrom but not in Ljubuski. I was even registered

8 at the Heliodrom.

9 Q. I would like witness to be shown Exhibit P 09090.

10 Do you see? Do you have this document?

11 A. Yes, I can see it.

12 Q. I see that it's an ICRC card. And did you keep this card until

13 the end of your detention in several detention facilities of HVO?

14 A. Yes, because I had hid them in my shoes in Dretelj. I kept them

15 until the end.

16 Q. Then I would like you to take a look at Exhibit P 08894. Have you

17 found it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This is also certificates issued by ICRC. I see here the date

20 when you were registered, 11th of June, 1993. Is it correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And also I see the date of your release, 19th of October, 1993.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And the last question relevant to this topic. When you

25 were taken from Heliodrom, you said that it was 30th of June. Yes?

1 A. Yes, it was the 30th of June.

2 Q. And what happened on that day? Why were you taken from Heliodrom

3 somewhere else?

4 A. I don't know. It was a long time ago, and I really don't know

5 to this very day why we were taken from Heliodrom. But they did. At the

6 same time, long columns of people were brought to Heliodrom. They

7 had arrived on foot, in lorries and buses. A group of us was taken away

8 to Dretelj. Why were we chosen amongst everybody else, I don't know,

9 but --

10 Q. How many people were taken from Heliodrom to, as you said,

11 Dretelj?

12 A. I believe that there were three busloads. First they took us to

13 the main road in a minivan, and then in three buses we were taken to

14 Dretelj.

15 Q. Let's go back to Dretelj. You said a number of buses and other

16 vehicles were coming up to Heliodrom with people, loaded on them, and was

17 that action in any way coordinated by some person from HVO or from the

18 Heliodrom remand?

19 A. I don't know. I had an occasion to see a lot of these people who

20 were brought in every possible way. The person who was standing in the

21 centre on a somewhat elevated plateau was Goran Cipra. I believe that he

22 was the main coordinator. At least he seemed that way.

23 People were not registered. They arrived in long columns. I

24 could see all that because we had been taken out from the prison and we

25 were waiting to be loaded onto the minivans and to be taken away. And we

1 could see all that. It was all coordinated. People were standing in

2 columns, in lines to be registered.

3 Later on I learned that on the 30th of June the Northern Camp had

4 been liberated together with Bijelo Polje and that this was the final

5 cleansing of all Bosniaks from the part of the town under the control of

6 the HVO.

7 Q. Do you know Goran Cipra?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. What position did he hold at that time?

10 A. I know that before the war he was a policeman. He worked in the

11 police. And when I was released from the camp, the person who received me

12 at the school of mechanical engineering was Goran Cipra. When we were

13 released, he was the one who received us, which means that he was also at

14 the faculty, which was the seat of the military police. Today Goran Cipra

15 is a staff member of the American consulate in Mostar, which is a very

16 interesting fact.

17 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, perhaps we could make a break now

18 before I go on to the next topic, which is very hard, actually, for the

19 witness.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 It's 20 to 4.00. We'll have a 20-minute break. We will resume in

22 20 minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I give the floor to the

1 Prosecution.

2 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Mr. Lizde, who escorted you from Heliodrom to Dretelj?

4 A. The military police did.

5 Q. And how were you treated on your way from Heliodrom to Dretelj?

6 A. Well, we all had to keep our heads down in the buses and to look

7 in front of us. There were two armed policemen in the buses and we were

8 crammed into the back of the buses, and there were a few seats up in front

9 that were free, but we weren't allowed to look out of the windows or

10 anything like that.

11 As we passed through Medjugorje, and I know that area well, I saw

12 it from -- by glancing askance, but in any event we all had to keep our

13 heads down and that's where there was an international organisation,

14 UNPROFOR, whatever. But anyway it was very difficult. It was the 30th of

15 June. It was very hot weather. So it was a very difficult situation.

16 Q. So you arrived at Dretelj compound. Who was in charge of the

17 Dretelj, let's say, prison.

18 A. It said "military police Dretelj," just as it did in Ljubuski.

19 That's what it said on the building at the entrance, the gate. The buses

20 parked there, and we would get out one by one. There were three military

21 policemen sitting on chairs, and we would go up one by one for them to

22 frisk us. And there was a whole stash of IDs that we'd received at

23 Heliodrom. And as I saw this from the bus, I thought that this ID would

24 mean something, but it turned out that it meant absolutely nothing. I put

25 it in my shoe.

1 Q. Do you mean the ICRC ID?

2 A. Yes, yes. Yes, the ICRC ID. I managed to hide it in my shoe.

3 But I didn't realise then that it wouldn't mean anything, and I might just

4 as well have thrown it away just like ought others had to do. The

5 policemen told them to throw them away, the policemen that examined --

6 Q. So on the territory of the Dretelj compound there were several

7 hangars. Were you placed in one of the hangars?

8 A. Yes, I was. In the upper part in -- of those buildings, in a tin,

9 in a metal hangar.

10 Q. Approximately how many people were there in your hangar?

11 A. Well, as we were packed tight, maybe 100 -- 800 to 1.000. That

12 would be my assessment. Perhaps more.

13 Q. I can't help asking the witness, just to recount very briefly

14 about the conditions of detention in Dretelj, because it -- according to

15 witness it was the best -- the worst period in his life. But very

16 briefly, because we heard a lot of witnesses on that.

17 A. If I tell you that the most terrible black hole of Herzegovina,

18 the Bosnian Croats, then that is certainly Dretelj. And I was in Dretelj

19 for 19 days, but it seems like 19.000 years. There were 800 of us or a

20 thousand or however many there were in that tin hangar. They gave us

21 meals once a day. We would eat once, have a meal once, and we'd have to

22 do it in 15 minutes. They would line us up, 11 of us at a time. I didn't

23 know why 11, why they chose 11, but it turned out that the 11th man would

24 take some bread from the policeman who held it, and then we'd all kneel

25 down and break the bread up in the aluminium bowls that we had. They'd

1 pour some liquid from a big pail and then we'd crouch down and eat until

2 the policeman said enough. Then we'd have to run back, leave the

3 receptacles or bowls or whatever, and the portion of bread that I received

4 I would very often put in my pocket and then you'd find some crumbs later

5 on and then you'd eat those crumbs later on in the day. But the worst

6 thing was that we were left without water for three days. It was normal

7 not to receive food, but water, that was really difficult. It was so

8 difficult -- anyway, 800 of us had to eat and finish our meal in 15

9 minutes.

10 Q. Mr. Lizde, you just told the Chamber that policemen -- policemen

11 would bring food and so on. Who were in charge of the Dretelj compound

12 inside of the barracks, hangars? Who were your guards?

13 A. The military police, that's who. They were the guards. They were

14 military police guards. And the people who arrived, who came to Dretelj

15 to mistreat us and who beat us for the most part weren't -- except for the

16 warden whom we knew was surnamed Anicic; I don't know his first name to

17 this day. But anyway, as to it an example to us and to his policemen and

18 all those had came in, a young guy whose surname was Sejtanic, who tried

19 to escape one day, he -- in front of all of us, in front of the hangar, he

20 beat him up so badly by way of an example, so that none of us would take

21 us into our heads to try and escape.

22 The policemen gave us food. They guarded us. I mean the military

23 policemen. But the people who came to beat us were soldiers, special

24 units of one kind or another. And in the court where I testified by

25 videolink from Sarajevo - I forgot to tell you this - when they fractured

1 my colleague's arm. The young man was a Swede. He was convicted for that

2 act. He was black, and he was the member of a special unit called Dragan

3 Bozanic or whatever from Capljina.

4 Q. And just could you tell -- yes. You have already told us the name

5 of that person who was beaten up.

6 Do you know about any other facts of detainees beaten in Dretelj?

7 Beaten or in any other manner mistreated. I would add that just to my

8 question.

9 A. Well, there were the worst things happening that could ever happen

10 to a man. They would storm the place in the morning with poles, with

11 bottles of alcohol. They would open the doors to the hangar, and on one

12 occasion a group entered. They said they were from Bijelo Polje, and they

13 said that all the people of Mostar, Mostar men, should stand up. And all

14 the people who stood up were either slapped or beaten with a baton. And

15 when they finished with the people from Mostar, then they said, "Now, all

16 the people who aren't from Mostar should get up."

17 And then on another day some policemen -- well, from the compound,

18 people wearing uniforms, those policemen. They asked the colleagues to

19 slap each other. Mirza Cemalovic, nicknamed Japrak, and Hamdija Jahic,

20 they had to slap each other. And the rest of us to watch it going on, and

21 they just laughed.

22 And then in the camp there was a young boy who wore a fur coat in

23 that extremely hot weather, and the guards caught -- referred to him as

24 Trebinjac, the man from Trebinje. He would enter the hangar and ask

25 whether anybody needed any cigarettes, because if they did he could get

1 them for them. Some of the people would give him some money or whatever

2 because people came in daily from Dubravska Visoravan, the Dubrava

3 Plateau, from the Capljina, from Stolac. And then he come back. He would

4 return without the cigarettes, of course, and then the people asked for

5 the cigarettes and all those who asked where their cigarettes were, were

6 taken out and beaten.

7 And I'd like to quote an example of my friend from Stolac whose

8 name was Zenda who barely survived all the beating because he had asked

9 for a cigarette from Trebinjac. He would come with a big sandwich, and

10 then he'd eat the sandwich in a corner of the hangar.

11 Now, the interesting point is that one day when they didn't open

12 the hangar, that was on the 13th of June -- no, the 13th of July. I'm

13 sorry, I misspoke. The 13th of July. We had no food and no water. And

14 one day after that, it might have been the 15th, they shot for hours

15 around the hangar or at the hangar. But as the hangar was constructed in

16 such a way that it had these large metal -- it was made of a large metal

17 framework, steel framework, we were able to lie down and protect our

18 heads, because the bullets couldn't pierce the thick metal. But they did

19 pierce the tin, and then the shrapnel from the tin wounded the people.

20 They were injured. As was Halil Setka who lives in America now. He was a

21 journalist colleague of mine. He was injured in the head.

22 So that's a just small portion of all the things that went on.

23 Q. Sorry. Was he attended by -- by a doctor?

24 A. Nobody helped him, just us, those of us who were inside the

25 hangar. There was a young guy who was a doctor. His name was Esad

1 Boskailo. He was a doctor by profession, and he did what he could through

2 words or something like that. But otherwise, nobody came to help us in

3 any way. If you mean the guards or the people who did the shooting in the

4 first place. Had they wanted to help us, they wouldn't have shot at us.

5 Q. Mr. Lizde, do you know about any detainees who were killed in

6 Dretelj?

7 A. Yes, of course I do. I lost a very good friend of mine in

8 Dretelj. His name was Omer Kohnic.

9 Q. What happened to him?

10 A. Omer Kohnic was killed. He died in a solitary confinement cell

11 because Dretelj had these solitary confinement cells. He succumbed to his

12 wounds after being beaten. And he told me afterwards -- or, rather,

13 Dr. Kovacevic told me afterwards, the doctor who was with him, that after

14 the beatings he was beaten on the neck or his Adam's apple and when they

15 threw him into the solitary confinement cell he never regained

16 consciousness. And there were some religious officers in the hangar, an

17 Efendi was there. His name was Kasim Mezit. They took him away. The

18 policeman told me that. They took him away in a Renault 4 with four dead

19 bodies to bury somewhere. And later on it turned out it that was a

20 Partisan cemetery. It was the Partisan cemetery at Modric.

21 So that's what I know about those five people who were killed in

22 Dretelj.

23 Q. Mr. Lizde, were you ever interrogated in Dretelj?

24 A. Yes. That happened too. They interrogated me. I think -- well,

25 they came to fetch me in the hangar with a vehicle, and from the hangar to

1 that other building the -- where the entrance was and where it said

2 military police, and it's at a distance of a hundred metres, I was met

3 down there by two young guys in uniforms, and judging by their accent,

4 their dialect -- well, we can tell where we're from judging by our

5 accents. They were Dalmatians. They introduced them receives as being

6 the policemen of SIS or whatever, and they interrogated me.

7 At the beginning they were very -- well, they were good. They

8 allowed me to light up and have a drink of water. And they had their

9 holsters but no pistols in them. But as they weren't satisfied with the

10 answers I gave, they turned the table on me and ordered me -- ordered that

11 I be returned to the hangar.

12 I asked the policeman to let me go to the toilet. He said no. So

13 I went back to the hangar, because in the hangar we defecated in a corner

14 just five metres away from where my head was and where my other colleagues

15 were in the hangar.

16 Q. Mr. Lizde, just let's go back for a moment to this shooting

17 incident. Was Setka, Halil the only one who had been injured in the

18 shooting inches tent in the tin hangar, or were there any other detainees

19 who were also wounded?

20 A. I've already said that one of them was Setka. There were 10 to 15

21 wounded and injured people, but I knew Setka well, and he was close to me,

22 just two metres away.

23 Q. Was the tin hangar the only one which was affected by the

24 shooting? Do you know that?

25 A. I don't know that. I don't know that. All I do know is that on a

1 daily basis in Dretelj camp you could hear screams and noise.

2 There was a young guy (redacted). I have to

3 tell you that story. He was well-known as a homosexual, and the military

4 policemen would often -- to get their kicks, they would make him do all

5 sorts of things with this man Trebinjac.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: This might be something that could be handled in

7 private session given the gentleman's -- I mean -- given the content of

8 what -- I just think out of respect for the individual. I'm not trying to

9 stifle the testimony, but I just do think that it might be sensitive.

10 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Let's move to private

12 session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

10 MR. PORYVAEV:

11 Q. So you were kept in Dretelj for 17 days. When -- where -- when

12 and where were you taken afterwards?

13 A. Yes. After Dretelj we were taken once again to Mostar and

14 Heliodrom.

15 Q. Who escorted you there?

16 A. Military police again, with large civilian transport trucks

17 probably used for transporting cattle, livestock. With tarpaulins;

18 anyway, they were transport trucks.

19 Q. When you came back to Heliodrom, were there more detainees than on

20 the 30th [Realtime transcript read in error "13th"] of June when you left

21 Heliodrom?

22 A. I left Heliodrom on the 30th of June.

23 Q. Yes, I say 30th of June.

24 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes. There should be made a correction. Paragraph

25 43, line 15. 30th of June, yes.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They brought us to the gymnastics

2 hall which was full of prisoners, and -- well, we were exhausted. And

3 they left us there in the sports hall which was full already. Well, it

4 was full of people that I did actually know. They were all people from

5 Mostar, or mostly.

6 MR. PORYVAEV:

7 Q. Witness, did you ever see in Heliodrom any detainees who were not

8 from Herzegovina but from other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes, of course. I saw them. I saw people who were from Central

10 Bosnia, too. And we would refer to them as Bosnians in our jargon, but

11 that's how the guards referred to them too when they selected them first

12 to do labour. They'd say, "Come on, Bosanci," Bosnians. They were taken

13 out first.

14 Q. Did you know how it come about that they were transferred to

15 Heliodrom from Central Bosnia through the Serb enclave?

16 A. Well, we talked to the people, and they told us. As far as I was

17 able to gather, when they were rounded up where they had been living, they

18 separated the women and children from the men. The men were put into

19 buses. And at the border, whether at Derventa -- I'm not familiar with

20 the area, but anyway, the area controlled by the army of Republika Srpska,

21 the military police would enter - of Republika Srpska - take away their

22 pistols or weapons from the military police which escorted the prisoners,

23 and once they passed the territory of Republika Srpska they would give

24 their weapons back to them, and then they'd go via Ljubuski. And they

25 were detained for several days at Vitina, and after that they arrived at

1 Heliodrom.

2 Now, what was even more interesting as far as these people were

3 concerned, sometimes at Heliodrom you would see International Red Cross

4 white jeeps turning up. Then they would very often take the people away

5 and hide them so that the Red Cross couldn't register them.

6 Q. Mr. Lizde, were you ever taken to perform any sort of labour

7 outside Heliodrom?

8 A. Yes, I was taken outside Heliodrom for labour.

9 Q. On many occasions?

10 A. Once.

11 Q. Do you remember how it happened?

12 A. Well, they would line us up every day. All the detainees would be

13 lined up in front of the building. Let me just mention that I was taken

14 out of the hall when I was brought from Dretelj and transferred to the

15 school which is right next door to the hall. Otherwise, it's the building

16 of the secondary military academy that there was -- that was there before

17 the war.

18 And every morning everybody would have to go outside, line up, and

19 then they would select people. Well, the trucks would arrive, and people

20 would go out to do labour.

21 As I, and I said this at the beginning, was seriously wounded on

22 the 30th of June, 1992, I managed to -- to get from a doctor -- well,

23 there was some dispensary or whatever where there was Dr. Hadzic and

24 Dr. Stranjak in the school. He wrote out a piece of paper which -- which

25 said that I wasn't able to do labour because I was seriously wounded. So

1 he exempted me from labour.

2 So when the military policemen told me to go out and do work, I

3 showed him this certificate from the doctor, and he said that didn't mean

4 anything. And he asked me where I was wounded, and I said in Podvelezje.

5 And he said, "Which people did you belong to?" And I said the armija, the

6 BH army. And he said, "Well, that's precisely the kind of man we need."

7 And I was taken to Santiceva, which is where we were held for seven days.

8 We carried bags, sandbags, or whatever, and organised the

9 trenches. We would make them -- roll them cigarettes, particularly grass,

10 weed, and clean their rifles.

11 And when I asked one of the policemen, the soldiers, when they

12 would return us to the Heliodrom, because usually one group would bring us

13 there and we'd stay there with those soldiers, those soldiers on duty

14 there up at the front line, and then they would come and take us back and

15 another group would be taken out. And this soldier sold me, "We can't

16 take you back because the person that issued us -- issued you out has to

17 see that you're returned." Well, I didn't really know what that meant.

18 Usually people would stay for a day or two and then they would be taken

19 back, whereas we stayed for seven days because the man who let us go in

20 the first place wasn't there to take us back. At least that's what they

21 said.

22 Q. Was there any shooting when you were working on the Santiceva

23 Street?

24 A. Yes, of course there was shooting. As soon as we arrived they had

25 us lined up outside the main post office. Several lads, soldiers. A

1 German lad. He didn't speak very fluently, and we had trouble

2 understanding what he was saying.

3 There were several people who were wounded. The sharpshooter from

4 the Croatian Defence Council and other people. That was a front line. It

5 was only natural. The distance between an HVO trench and the army trench

6 was no more than two metres. In purely military terms, that was quite

7 common.

8 Q. I'm sorry. I would like witness to be shown P 09398.

9 JUDGE PRANDLER: Mr. Poryvaev.

10 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes.

11 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would only like at that say that there is

12 probably a mistake in translation. In line 21 that -- that the army

13 trench was no more than the distance between army trenches was no more

14 than two metres. I believe that it should be probably 20 or whatever and

15 not two metres. That is the distance between two trenches. Thank you.

16 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, could we ask the question from the witness,

18 because I didn't -- that's the first thing that I noticed, that the

19 gentleman said two metres, and so he must have been between the two

20 metres.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In order to be more accurate about

22 this, it -- it was about as far away as the street in a normal city, for

23 example, about two and a half or four metres, and that was all the

24 distance separating the HVO and the BH army. So how many metres can that

25 possibly be? Well, it sure isn't 20, is it.

1 For example, there was this area on Santica [as interpreted]

2 Street. That's where I carried some sacks, bags, and the so-called

3 drivers. On the one side of that street you had the BH army, and on the

4 other side you had the HVO, and there was just a street between the two

5 warring parties, and that street was controlled from a building, from a

6 nearby building, a bank, a building that wasn't finished. As I said, it

7 was a very small distance. I don't think if you looked anywhere along

8 Santica Street you would have found a distance as large as 20 metres

9 separating the two sides.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, you just gave

11 us a detail that just caught my attention. You said that there were

12 snipers in the bank building, but whose sides were they on? Were they

13 ABiH snipers or HVO snipers?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] HVO.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These snipers, you saw them with

16 your own eyes or was this hearsay? Were these hearsay that you heard, or

17 did you actually see them, or did you actually hear the shots? Did you

18 see the tracing bullets? How can you be so sure about their presence?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see the snipers. I didn't

20 hear the shots for as long as I was on Santica Street, but my mates who

21 were there before told me that a lot of the prisoners had been wounded

22 there. I'm quoting exactly some of my mates from the prison. There were

23 some of those who had spent each and every day on Santica Street. And I

24 was asking myself the same question. How come it was impossible? Why

25 couldn't they just run across the street to freedom? That's how I was

1 imagining this. I said -- that was during forced labour. I could run for

2 it, and they said, "Not a chance in hell." So many people came to grief

3 on Santica Street. They were shooting at them. It's short street or,

4 rather, a narrow street separating the drivers, because there was a

5 motorist club there. Used to be before the war, and there a restaurant

6 building that is across the street. And then there's that bank building

7 which has now been finished. So I heard the story from people who spent

8 every single day on Santic [as interpreted] Street and people who were

9 wounded on Santic Street. They were shot by sniper bullets in the back as

10 they were trying to cross the street from the stop of that bank building

11 or office. Nobody got away. Freedom was so close but nobody got away.

12 It was a stone's throw away.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You gave us another detail. I

14 thought I understood that you worked in the street.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There's a street there, a

16 street. A street. The street was the borderline. That's where I was

17 carrying the sacks. I was carrying the sacks across to this restaurant

18 that was across the street. Sandbags, sacks filled with sand. And the

19 street is right underneath the window. I would place the sacks on the

20 window, and then across the way there was the BH army. We had those

21 sandbags that we were carrying. We constructed barriers because they

22 would fire projectiles from the other side.

23 It was a -- a very busy area. There were trenches being dug, and

24 some of my mates went to Santica Street. They dug tunnels beneath that

25 very street. There was a sort of tunnel being dug, so the street was all

1 dug up. I never went into any of those tunnels myself, and I was not

2 among those doing the actual digging.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who dug the trenches under the

4 street? Was it HVO or ABiH?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in that street. It was further

6 down beneath. HVO prisoners were doing the digging. I was a prisoner who

7 was preparing the sandbags for the soldiers on the front line. For

8 example, if the BH army fire a missile blowing their barrier, their

9 protection to bits, then we, the prisoners, would bring new sandbags in

10 order to build a new barrier.

11 Over the seven days I spent there on Santica Street I did

12 precisely that throughout that time.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

14 continues] ... on the other side of the ABiH side, it was -- the same was

15 being done?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I was just a

17 prisoner, after all.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Lizde, I would like to just clear up the name of the street.

21 Is it Santica Street or Santiceva Street?

22 A. Santiceva Street. That was what we called it. It's the longest

23 street in Mostar. That's where the prison used to be, and there still is

24 a prison on that street. So that's probably the street you mean.

25 Q. Okay. Now I would like Witness to be shown Exhibit P 09398.

1 Witness, did you recognise this document?

2 A. Yes. It's a certificate [no interpretation] I do.

3 Q. Is it a certificate you told us given you by the doctor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: My microphone still doesn't work. Perhaps if you

7 turn yours off, Mr. Poryvaev. Yes. Thank you.

8 Witness, you have told us that several times you were searched.

9 You were asked to give everything you had to military policemen if I

10 remember correctly. On the other hand, it seems that you have been able

11 to preserve this paper. Was it that you were allowed to keep it or did

12 you hide it as you hid the ID?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I got the certificate at Heliodrom,

14 which is where I was released from, but the certificate came towards the

15 end of my time in the camp. The only thing that I managed to hide was the

16 ICRC card. But they never searched me again afterwards, because I'd been

17 in the camp for quite a long time by then, and they never searched me on

18 my way out. There would have been nothing for them to find anyway.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The certificate bears the date of 12 June '02.

20 Were you at the Heliodrom at that time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 12th of June, 2002. No. That's

22 when I talked to the investigators, and I gave them the certificate.

23 MR. PORYVAEV: [Microphone not activated]

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You did not have the microphone, or it didn't

1 work.

2 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes, yes. Just take a look the figures. 12th of

3 June, 2002, the date when the witness handed over the document to the

4 investigator. It's not 1992.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Right. You're right absolutely. I apologise.

6 So this cannot be a certificate that he has --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Your Honour, please.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: -- at the time he was working or asked to work at

9 Santiceva Street.

10 MR. PORYVAEV:

11 Q. Witness, I would just ask you a question to clarify the situation.

12 Did you get this certificate during your first detention at Heliodrom or

13 the second?

14 A. No. No. The second time around. The second one, when I came

15 from Dretelj. It was the second time around, not the first time around.

16 I wasn't taken anywhere else. From Heliodrom to perform labour when I

17 arrived from Ljubuski to the central prison. When I came from Dretelj, I

18 went to that school building, the gym hall, and then the school, and

19 that's where I got the certificate because the doctors were over at the

20 school building. I got the certificate as soon as I arrived at Heliodrom

21 the second time around.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: My microphone is still on, so I take advantage of

23 it.

24 This is very strange, really, because it says clearly 12 June '02.

25 That would be out altogether. The witness has been -- has left the

1 Heliodrom for the first time on 30 June 1993, but how -- now, Mr. Lizde,

2 you have said that you have received this when you got back to the

3 Heliodrom. So it is a date later than 12th of June and certainly earlier

4 than 2002.

5 I cannot bring this all together. Is this --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I first saw this date

7 when I gave the certificate to the investigators who interviewed me, and

8 they were the ones that added this in hand. This was not on the original

9 certificate that I gave them. They wrote this themselves when I handed a

10 copy of the certificate to them the first time I was interviewed.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Maybe the Defence will probe further into this.

12 I leave it at that for the moment.

13 MR. PORYVAEV: May I continue?

14 Q. Mr. Lizde, did you see any military units deployed at Heliodrom

15 compound?

16 A. Of course I did. I did. There was this one day I made beds

17 for -- for an elite unit that had arrived from Zagreb, the Tigers. The

18 Split and the Vinkovci brigades were also at Heliodrom. And the one from

19 Osijek. It was all right there.

20 Q. Did they arrive at the time you were detained at Heliodrom in June

21 or in July or later?

22 A. I don't know. The second time around when I was there I saw them.

23 Q. Did you see any artillery pieces on the territory of Heliodrom

24 compound?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. What kind of artillery was positioned there?

2 A. It was just next to the window in the central prison, just outside

3 the window. We were locked up inside. There were some artillery weapons

4 that being used to fire quite often, 120-millimetre weapons. That's what

5 they told me. I didn't know about that at the time. And the

6 60-millimetre mortars. Those were positioned all around us, around the

7 central prison building and the Kopex [phoen] building between the school

8 and the central prison, in that area. I often saw the weapons actually

9 fired for using. They were just outside our windows.

10 Q. But do you know what positions were targeted by these artillery

11 pieces from Heliodrom compound?

12 A. Well, the BH army positions. That's what positions were targeted,

13 positions held by the BH army. I assume they were targeting them because

14 there was no one else for them to target, was there.

15 Q. Mr. Lizde, do you know of any facts of mistreating detainees at

16 the Heliodrom prison?

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Might -- might I just be allowed a question on

18 the artillery?

19 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Lizde, were the artillery pieces such as are

21 drawn -- drawn by a lorry or other car, or were they mounted on a vehicle

22 which is blinded and on caterpillars, which certain howitzers are?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Neither. This was just outside our

24 window. Some of it was actually embedded into the ground. Those were

25 stationary weapons with wide barrels and with long barrels. I'm not sure

1 how they put them there. I didn't see that myself. But I know that the

2 weapons made a thunderous sound when used for firing, and this was the

3 case frequently, especially outside the windows of the central prison

4 building, which is where I was.

5 MR. PORYVAEV:

6 Q. So, Mr. Lizde, I asked you about any facts of beating detainees

7 known to you.

8 A. At Heliodrom all over again, yes. There was this one day when

9 nobody touched me, the second time around when I ended up at Heliodrom.

10 No one touched me.

11 I think a man named Mihalj, surname Mihalj, entered the school

12 building. We were in this school, and each school has classrooms. There

13 was a corridor. We were all shown to our respective rooms, and we slept

14 on the floor. We all laid down on the floor.

15 He came into our classroom. He mistreated people, beat people,

16 and put out cigarette butts on people's backs, asking them to -- forcing

17 them to do push-ups.

18 Q. Mr. Lizde, did you see any high-ranking HVO commanders at the

19 Heliodrom compound?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Whom did you see?

22 A. The only commander I knew was Mr. Petkovic. The reason being we

23 had once travelled together in an APC. We drove from Makljen from Prozor

24 to Vakuf. We were together in an APC, Mr. Petkovic, Mr. Arif Pasalic, and

25 I. I knew him too. But not the rest. I didn't know Mr. Praljak,

1 although I'd been told that Mr. Praljak was part of the delegation that

2 arrived. I didn't know him. And even if I'd seen him, I would not have

3 identified him.

4 I did see Mr. Petkovic, and I did recognise him. The only dilemma

5 that I still have is I can't remember whether that was during my first

6 time there or my second time there. There were all sorts of delegations

7 arriving comprising commanders of all kinds but, you know, there was a lot

8 of fear --

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Although the witness

10 said he can remember whether this was in June or in July, given the time

11 frame I would ask my learned colleague to ask another question about the

12 exact time line to see whether the witness can be more specific about the

13 time when somebody apparently told him that they had seen Praljak there.

14 Otherwise, we will have to raise this in cross-examination and raise some

15 sort of an alibi, but we can't spend the whole summer do -- doing that.

16 MR. PORYVAEV: Mr. Kovacic asked a question, but our witness has

17 already answered this question, because he said he actually could not

18 specify the time when he saw Mr. Praljak and Mr. Petkovic at the Heliodrom

19 compound, whether it was during his first detention at the Heliodrom

20 compound or the second which started in July.

21 Q. Mr. Lizde, did you -- did you see them -- on how many occasions

22 did you see them?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. I don't think that's the

24 problem. He did not say he saw Mr. Praljak. He only saw Mr. Petkovic.

25 But the others told him that Mr. Praljak had already come, unless I did

1 not really understand the answer of the witness. So could you please

2 repeat the question, Mr. Poryvaev, and reformulate it.

3 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes.

4 Q. Did you see Mr. Praljak at the Heliodrom compound?

5 A. I heard that it was Mr. Praljak. I didn't know him, and I can't

6 say with certainty that this was Mr. Praljak. That's what they told me.

7 They said, "This is Praljak. How come you don't know him? He's from

8 Mostar too," that sort of thing. But I can't say with certainty. This is

9 all I can tell you.

10 Even as far as --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, saw you a person, and

12 one of your colleagues said that this is Praljak. This is the man from

13 Mostar. Is that it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. And Praljak was

15 at Heliodrom later. "You don't know him?" I said, "No, I don't." And he

16 said, "How come? He's also from Mostar," and the second and third time

17 round. The only way I know Mr. Praljak is from the media, so ...

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I take it from the gentleman's answer

19 he did not know Mr. Praljak at the time, did not recognise him by face or

20 by media contact. So if the answer to that is yes, then it would appear

21 that the gentleman cannot assist in this matter and it's mere speculation

22 and we should just move on to save time. Thank you.

23 MR. PORYVAEV: I respectfully disagree with Mr. Karnavas, because

24 the witness explained that he didn't knew Mr. Praljak, but his inmate

25 explained to him that the person in front of them, just Mr. Praljak.

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I understood what the gentleman said. I'm just

2 merely saying that this sort of information is meaningless and useless,

3 and we should just move on.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please. We know that

5 this has been -- it was a long time. You were in Heliodrom a long time

6 ago. But according to what you said, there was this person, and one of

7 your co-detainees said, "This is Mr. Praljak." So the person you saw at

8 the time, is it the one that we see here in this courtroom? Probably a

9 bit older, of course, like all of us, but do you recognise him? Do you

10 not recognise him? And he's even standing up, you know.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know now what Mr. Praljak looks

12 like, but back then there was this group of people that passed me, and I

13 couldn't possibly have recognised him even if I'd known him. So this man

14 just told me it was Praljak. "Don't you know him?" I said, "No, I

15 don't." Now I do know what he looks like.

16 It's difficult to say, really. I heard that it was Mr. Praljak,

17 but I didn't really have a chance to -- to look properly because they were

18 on their way in. I'm afraid I don't have a good answer to that. Now I do

19 know what he looks like, and I have known for quite some time.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, you seem to have told us that you have

21 seen him three times. The second and third time, did you then recognise

22 him because you had been told the first time who it was?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: He's never recognised him.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say three times.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Kovacic.

1 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] At least

2 in Croatian the witness has never said that he heard about Praljak being

3 there on three occasions. He mentioned just one time, and I've not been

4 able to find it anywhere in the transcript either. And I can see the

5 witness confirming this by nodding his head.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, you saw this

7 group of people, and there was someone there from whom you were told that

8 it was Mr. Praljak, and this person belonging to that group, you've only

9 see him once, the one of whom you were told that it was Mr. Praljak.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, just once and never again.

11 Nobody ever told me again that he was there. I did not see him again.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's what I

13 understood. Please proceed.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I apologise --

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have fell -- I fell victim to an error. I

16 apologise. Thanks for clarifying.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. We would

18 like to be able to save time on the cross. If the witness may be asked

19 another question in order to be able to at least vaguely determine the

20 time. Maybe he could tell us whether it was two days after his arrival,

21 20 days after the arrival, towards the end of his stay, at the it

22 beginning of his stay, if he has any idea.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Witness, this is not very specific, of course, but as far as you

25 can remember, when your co-detainee told you this is Mr. Praljak, the man

1 from Mostar, when did that take place? Was it in June, in July, at the

2 end of June, at the beginning of July, or can't you tell us anything about

3 this?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really can't tell you

5 whether it was before or after. There is no detail in -- to jog my

6 memory. I'm afraid whatever I told you would be wrong. I can't pinpoint

7 the time.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Among the group of people we are

9 talking about, are we talking about people who are dressed in civilian

10 clothes or uniforms or both? Did these people look like officials,

11 high-ranking officers as far as you can remember?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the troops passed there is a lot

13 of security. There are commanders. I was with the commander of the 4th

14 Corps, and there were always four or five men with him.

15 Whenever such a group passes there is a lot of guards with them,

16 and I remember that there was a lot of guards, a lot of security. That's

17 what I remember.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that there were

19 people in charge of security there. Did you see them?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course I saw that group of

21 people that went by. They were passing by, and I saw them. Nobody

22 stopped for us to see them. Whenever they arrived they would just pass

23 through quickly. The only person from the command circles that was able

24 to talk to us and ask for some people to cross over to his side was Juka

25 Prazina and also Tuta, for example. We saw the two of them, but we never

1 saw the others. They never spent any time. And the only thing you could

2 see was through a little opening among the bars on your cells. That's why

3 I don't know.

4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] One point of clarification,

5 Witness. Why did your co-detainee talk to you about Mr. Praljak, or did

6 he point to all of these persons of authority who were there, or did he

7 just point to Mr. Praljak? Why him?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know.

9 MR. PORYVAEV: May I continue?

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, please proceed.

11 MR. PORYVAEV:

12 Q. Mr. Lizde, on how many occasions did you see Mr. Petkovic at

13 Heliodrom?

14 A. Also when delegations came, but I'm sure that I saw Petkovic once.

15 He was there once in the same group where Praljak apparently was. I don't

16 want to speculate, but there were delegations, different delegations

17 passing through in different ways, in vehicles, on foot. I'm afraid to

18 make a mistake or to give you a wrong figure.

19 Q. Okay. Did you see Mr. Petkovic inside of the building, inside of

20 the Heliodrom building?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the leading

22 nature. He can ask, "Where did you see him? What was he doing?" Who,

23 what, where, why, how, and explain or describe. Those are the questions

24 at this point. So I would appreciate if the Prosecutor would just ask

25 direct questions as opposed to leading the witness, even slightly.

1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to join

2 the objection by my colleague, Karnavas, and I would like to add that the

3 witness has already answered the question because he spoke about having

4 allegedly seen Generals Praljak and Petkovic through the bars of the

5 little cell where he was accommodated.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Poryvaev. What do you

7 want to stress here? The witness told us that there was this group that

8 came once and where he recognised Mr. Petkovic. He knew him because he

9 travelled with him at least once, and then he was told that Mr. Praljak

10 was there, was a member of that group. What do you want to show here?

11 What else do you want to point to the Chamber?

12 MR. PORYVAEV: The only thing that I would ask the witness just

13 did he see members of the delegations, high-ranking delegations inside the

14 building of the Heliodrom. That's my question.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, before he answers that question, the

16 gentleman would first have to -- he has to lay a foundation. He's talking

17 about high-ranking delegations. What are high-ranking delegations? In

18 what aspect? Who did he see? He can ask that question. Who did you see

19 that you would consider high ranking delegations? Name them. At what

20 time, what place, what date, where were they, what were they saying, what

21 were they doing? That's the direct examination of this part.

22 MR. PORYVAEV: We are talking about one delegation, high ranking

23 delegation that the witness saw.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: He has to lay a foundation, sir. He has to lay a

25 foundation other than saying I saw a bunch of people with a bunch of other

1 people surrounded, and therefore they are what constitute a high ranking

2 delegation. I just think that this kind of testimony is irrelevant and is

3 terribly unhelpful to the Tribunal.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Poryvaev, the witness is

5 telling us that this group apparently was standing outside. That's what I

6 understood. I understood that they did not walk into the building. And

7 now you're asking the witness whether the group went inside the building

8 or the compound.

9 When asking this question, are you thinking about other people

10 than this particular group? Please try to be very specific because the

11 witness's answer was very specific. He said that he saw people go by, but

12 he did not say that these people entered the prison. But you seem to be

13 saying that this group entered the premises. So please try and be

14 extremely specific and to lay the foundations of your question.

15 MR. PORYVAEV: My question was quite simple. Did he see any

16 people, high-ranking officials from HVO inside the Heliodrom building

17 inspecting the cells. That was my question. That's not about --

18 specifically about Mr. Petkovic. There is some misunderstanding.

19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Your Honour, with all

20 due respect to my learned friend, this is not a precise question. My

21 learned friend is talking about a building at the Heliodrom. We have seen

22 a sketch of the Heliodrom here, and we have seen that this is a huge

23 complex with a lot of building. He should at least be precise and

24 pinpoint the building. And this is exactly what my colleague, Karnavas,

25 is saying; he has to lay a foundation otherwise we're going to waste time

1 on speculations.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Poryvaev, we know because

3 we've seen other evidence that the Heliodrom is a very large complex with

4 several buildings. So when you ask him whether he saw high-ranking or

5 prominent people, are you talking about the Heliodrom or are you talking

6 about the prison's premises? You have to be extremely specific then

7 because otherwise we'll have objections from the Defence and we'll be

8 wasting time. So please ask a very specific question on that point to the

9 witness.

10 MR. PORYVAEV:

11 Q. Very specific question. Did you see any, let's say, commission

12 consisted of high-ranking representatives of HVO in the building, in the

13 premises where you were kept? That's what the question was.

14 A. No, I didn't see.

15 Q. That's -- I don't understand why -- there is too much ado about

16 nothing. Very simple question.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the whole points is that he has

18 proofed the witness. He should have known that answer before he asked the

19 question, and so why bother to ask the question if he already knows the

20 answer? The answer is that there was nobody in that building and

21 therefore it is a waste of time. It's not as if he's speaking with the

22 gentleman for the first time. He's prepped him. He's proofed him. And

23 all we're saying is to lay a foundation and move on as quickly as

24 possible, because we're wasting time. That's all.

25 MR. PORYVAEV: Mr. Karnavas, it's -- you are wasting time, not

1 myself. My question was quite plain. I don't understand why it raises so

2 many objections. It's quite a simple question, not only one to

3 Mr. Petkovic. We clarify the situation with Mr. Petkovic and that was my

4 final question about Heliodrom. That's it.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He answered that he saw no one.

6 MR. PORYVAEV: That's what I wanted to hear from him and for the

7 conclusions that we would draw from this response, so it depends on what

8 you want to see.

9 Q. My next question is relevant to the time when you were released

10 from Heliodrom. From the document, ICRC, we've seen that you were

11 released on the 19th of October, 1993. Is that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Do you remember more details about the day when you were released?

14 When first you learn about the fact that you would be released from

15 Heliodrom?

16 A. The day when I was released. A military policeman came, took me

17 to the central prison from the school where I'd been. I had to sign a

18 piece of paper. I did. The military police took us to the school of

19 mechanical engineering in Mostar where the aforementioned Mr. Goran Cipra

20 was waiting for us.

21 Q. Do you mean the same Goran Cipra you were talking about the 30th

22 of June?

23 A. Yes, the same Goran Cipra.

24 Q. Who else was present there?

25 A. When we were released?

1 Q. Along with Mr. Goran Cipra.

2 A. You mean the military police?

3 Q. Yes, yes.

4 A. There were some people. There was a secretary. It was at the

5 school of mechanical engineering, upstairs. Those were nicely appointed

6 offices.

7 Goran was on his own in his office, and he made a selection. He

8 selected Selma, Bojana, and Dzemal. They entered his office. He poured

9 them a drink and I and my colleague Sejo Beslagic waited in the corridor.

10 When they had had the drink, he told us that on the following day we were

11 to report to the office for exchanges run by Mr. Berislav Pusic.

12 Q. Just one question. You just told us that you had signed some

13 paper. Do you remember what kind of paper was signed by you? To what

14 effect was the contents of that paper?

15 A. I can't remember the content of the document. I only know that I

16 policemen angry, those who had gathered us in the corridor of the central

17 prison. Dzemo was taken out of his solitary cell. The two ladies were

18 taken out from the floors. Sejo was taken from another part of the

19 prison, and I was the only one to sign the piece of paper in the Cyrillic

20 script, which -- I did it in spite, and the military policeman was not

21 very happy. Still he had to release me. He didn't have a choice. I don't

22 know what was contained on that piece of paper. I only knew that it meant

23 freedom for me.

24 Q. Did you see your own name on that piece of paper?

25 A. I can't remember.

1 Q. So you signed the document not knowing what it was about?

2 A. At the time I must have known. I don't know now. I knew at the

3 time that I was signing a document that was setting me free, that allowed

4 me to go home. The policeman who brought me from the school to the

5 central prison told me, "You're free now, but watch your mouth when you go

6 back to work at the radio or wherever you work."

7 I can't remember the contents of the document at the moment, but

8 we were told we could go, we were free. We only had to sign that piece of

9 paper, but I can't remember now what I was signing at the time. It was

10 not a clean piece of paper, that I'm sure of. Something was written on

11 it.

12 Q. Do you see any other document where -- provided for your released

13 from Heliodrom?

14 A. Yes. I saw the document, but a little later, maybe even a year

15 later. I received it by fax. I don't know who from, from the western

16 part of Mostar, and the message was, "You know what to do with this."

17 Q. And what was that document about? I mean the document that you

18 received later.

19 A. It was written in this document, "For the attention of Stanko

20 Bozic, the head of the collection and investigation prison. The

21 following prisoners should be released, Dzemo Andic [phoen], Alaliza

22 [phoen], Bojana Mujanovic, Serboslokic [phoen], signed by Berislav Pusic."

23 Q. I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit P 05949.

24 Witness, is this the document you received by fax?

25 A. Yes, this is the document that was faxed to me.

1 Q. Okay. Where were you taken from the mechanical faculty?

2 A. They asked me where I resided. One of the policemen asked me on

3 the ground floor of the building. I told him where I lived, because

4 apparently they didn't know. They took me in front of my building. When

5 I arrived there it was afternoon. At the door of my apartment there was a

6 piece of paper which read that the apartment had been let out to somebody

7 whose name I can't remember at the moment, but he was a member of the

8 military police. There was a number, and the piece of paper was stamped,

9 and I don't know who it was signed for -- signed by.

10 On the 9th of May my wife and my two little children stayed back

11 in the apartment, just to remind you of that.

12 When I arrived there on that afternoon, the lock had been changed

13 and there was a piece of paper to the effect that somebody had been living

14 in the apartment, that the apartment had been rented out to that person.

15 Q. Did the document bear any stamp?

16 A. There was a stamp, but I can't remember what kind of stamp. I

17 believe that the certificate was issued to a member of the military police

18 whose name I can't remember at the moment.

19 Q. So did you report on the following day to the office for exchange

20 of prisoners and other people?

21 A. Yes, I did. I reported to the office for exchanges.

22 Q. Whom did you see there? To whom did you report?

23 A. I reported to Mr. Pusic. Mr. Slobodan Lovrenovic was there as

24 well, and also Mr. Jure Radic. Dr. Lugonja was there, and I can't

25 remember his first name. They were all, save for Lovrenovic, who

1 introduced himself to us as the head of Mr. Mate Boban's office.

2 They were all talking to us, to the five of us. All five of us

3 were in the office on that day.

4 Q. Did you have any options? Did they propose you options, where to

5 go from Heliodrom?

6 A. I learned on at that day that we were released at the intervention

7 of the World Association of Journalists and News Publishers and the Centre

8 for Independence from Ljubljana [as interpreted] In -- by Ms. Bojana

9 Humar. On that occasion Mr. Lovrenovic gave us an opportunity to talk to

10 Bojana and the question was raised as to what would happen to us. They

11 had a huge problem in the office for exchanges, and they feared if we

12 stayed in Mostar we would be killed. I didn't know where my wife and

13 children were at that time. But since Mr. Pusic was in telephone contact

14 with the other side, I learnt that on that day he had spoken to somebody

15 on the other side and that my wife and children were in Jablanica.

16 I was the only one, it seems to me, who was in favour of crossing

17 over to the other side and joining my family.

18 Dr. Lugonja told me at that moment that I could go even to the

19 moon but not to the other side.

20 Mr. Pusic suggested that since he was in contact with Zuka or

21 somebody else from Jablanica that he would try and bring my wife and

22 children over from Jablanica, that we would be joined in Mostar and then

23 we would be sent all of us together to a third country from there.

24 Q. But did he meet his promise?

25 A. It was impossible to do that. My -- my wife stayed there for a

1 long time, and it took me a long time before I saw my wife and children

2 again. I had to leave Mostar, and my wife remained in Jablanica.

3 Q. Did you have any document when you were released from Heliodrom

4 which would allow you not to be arrested by the first military police who

5 would come to -- bump into you?

6 A. No, I didn't have a document.

7 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, perhaps we can make a break, and I

8 will take only a few minutes after the break.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 It's almost half past 5.00. We'll have a 20-minute break.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Poryvaev.

14 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Lizde, how long did you stay in Mostar after you had been

16 released from Heliodrom?

17 A. Perhaps some 10 days.

18 Q. Did you feel already free in Mostar?

19 A. Relatively. Well, it was all the same to me, actually.

20 Q. Not -- not fully. Well, it was strange. No, I didn't feel

21 completely free. There was still a lot of fighting in town going on.

22 Q. Were you supervised by anyone?

23 A. Not officially. However, I'm quite sure that I wasn't left to

24 myself.

25 Q. Did you get any document which allowed you to cross the Croatian

1 border?

2 A. Yes, I did receive a document like that.

3 MR. PORYVAEV: I would like witness to be shown Exhibit P 0643. P

4 06433. Sorry.

5 Q. Did you find the document? Did you find --

6 A. Yes, yes, I've found it.

7 Q. Do you recognise this document?

8 A. I recognise it.

9 Q. Is this a document you were given to just cross the Croatian

10 border?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the date of the document is the 4th of November, 1993?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And for the records, by whom the document was signed?

15 A. Mr. Berislav Pusic, head of the office for exchange.

16 Q. Okay. And Mr. Lizde, where were you supposed to go on from

17 Croatia? What country did you -- make arrangements for you?

18 A. Unfortunately I didn't make the arrangements, but in Zagreb I

19 received a BH passport and a ticket to Istanbul; however, in Ljubljana,

20 from the airport I managed to get to the embassy and I stayed in

21 Ljubljana. I was supposed to go on to Turkey; however, I didn't, luckily.

22 Q. When did you come back to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. On the 21st of February, 1994. I returned from Ancona and flew

24 into Sarajevo.

25 Q. When did you see your family first?

1 A. I saw my family two or three days after that. That might have

2 been the 25th of February, 1994.

3 Q. Did you get back your apartment in Mostar by now?

4 A. Yes, I did manage to have my apartment returned.

5 Q. When did you get it back?

6 A. Two or three years ago. Just before the legal deadline.

7 Q. And a couple more questions. Witness, were you interrogated at

8 Heliodrom?

9 A. Yes. They did interrogate me at Heliodrom.

10 Q. Did you make any statement, a written statement -- statement, in

11 Heliodrom which was signed by yourself?

12 A. The only statement that I signed throughout that time, throughout

13 the time of the interrogation, that was the only one that I signed. So

14 they interrogated me on one day, and the next day Mr. Vidovic came and

15 gave me the document to sign, and that's the only statement that I

16 actually signed during my stay in the camp.

17 Q. So, Witness, is it correct that you were just interrogated at the

18 mechanical faculty, at the MUP station, at Ljubuski, then Heliodrom,

19 Dretelj? Did you see any accusation which was just put forward against

20 you, official accusation, written accusation?

21 A. I was interrogated at all those places that you just mentioned,

22 but up until now I have never received any kind of written accusation from

23 anyone.

24 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, I have accomplished my

25 examination-in-chief, but I have one issue to raise, and I think that we

1 should go into private session now.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now move into private

3 session.

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are now in open session.

7 Mr. Ibrisimovic, you wanted to start, I presume?

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. Lizde, I met you in December 1993, not

10 personally, but I got to know you through your writings, in fact, the

11 stories you wrote, whether you sent them from Sarajevo. I read it in the

12 Oslobodjenje paper, "How I became a war criminal," that was one of the

13 titles; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that was published in December 1993, was it, in -- as a series

16 of six articles; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We might go back to that series later on, but I'd like now to

19 clarify certain matters to save time for all of us, the Trial Chamber and

20 everybody else. As far as I've been able to understand you, you have

21 known Mr. Pusic since before the war; is that right?

22 A. Yes. His work took him quite near to where my offices were. So I

23 knew him.

24 Q. Right. You knew him. Now, on the basis of your testimony, I

25 understand it that you met Mr. Pusic on the 7th of May, 1993, and that

1 that was when you were released from Heliodrom in October 1993, and

2 another meeting in Jablanica, but you don't know whether you actually

3 talked to Mr. Pusic at all; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Perhaps we could clarify certain matters straight away, not to

6 waste time. On the 7th of May -- the 9th of May, 1993, you were a member

7 of the BH army; is that right?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. In the statement that you mentioned a moment ago as having been

10 given to the investigators, you gave two statements, actually. I think

11 that's right. When you spoke about how you saw Mr. Pusic in chronological

12 order, one -- in one portion, page 5 of the B/C/S version -- perhaps we

13 could hand round the documents first for you all to be able to follow

14 better.

15 It is the statement of the 16th of January, 2004, and you say

16 there when you met Mr. Pusic and how. And on -- on page 3 of the English

17 text, it is in paragraph 14, you say: "I never saw Pusic when I was in

18 Heliodrom, Dretelj, or Ljubuski." Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let's now go back to the 7th of May, 1993. You've said that on

21 that day you were arrested and that that was about noon, as far as I was

22 able to gather, in front of your house.

23 A. From my -- between my home and my workplace.

24 Q. You were taken away to the Faculty of Mechanical Engineering; is

25 that right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And they detained you there, and you said five hours.

3 A. Until 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon.

4 Q. During that time nobody interrogated you? You didn't give any

5 statements?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Nobody mistreated you in any way?

8 A. Yes, they did mistreat me when they took me to the cellar.

9 Q. I meant when you were at the Faculty of Mechanical Engineering.

10 A. No, not then.

11 Q. I talked to Mr. Pusic, and he says he doesn't remember the meeting

12 with you on the 7th of May, but let's start from that point. You said

13 that you saw Mr. Pusic, who asked you what you were doing there. He said,

14 "What are you doing here?" Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, the way you intoned it I take it that Mr. Pusic was surprised

17 to see you there.

18 A. Yes. That's what he said, and that's how I felt, he was

19 surprised.

20 Q. Was he alone? Did he have any escort, any security detail?

21 A. He was wearing a uniform. There might have been one or two

22 soldiers with him, but he came up to me in that cellar. He came up to me

23 alone.

24 Q. Now, in view of the question he asked you, you said that he was

25 surprised to see you, so I assume that he couldn't have known that you

1 would be taken there or brought -- or that you had been brought to the

2 mechanical engineering faculty.

3 A. I don't think anybody knew. They came across me in the street

4 just by chance, but they needed to fill up a certain quota of men, and I

5 happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, or an unfortunate

6 place at an unfortunate time.

7 Q. So when they released you at 6.00, was this a classical exchange

8 or did they just say, "Mr. Lizde, you're free. You can go home"?

9 A. Nobody told me that. Nobody said "Mr. Lizde." They took us out

10 of the cellar on two occasions. We lined up in front of the faculty

11 building, and from the entrance door of the faculty to the gate of the

12 Dzemo Bijedic university as it was called at the time from the gate to the

13 entrance is about 300 metres, and there were quite a lot of us there. We

14 were standing one next to another in line as you would in a classroom of

15 pupils.

16 They took us back because they didn't have enough of the other

17 people released on the other side. At least that's what they told us.

18 And nobody said, "Come on, Lizde," or, "Come on, so-and-so." The police

19 just escorted us to the exit gate with their rifles and out on the street

20 in front of the gate said we were free. They returned, and we went our

21 separate ways. I, for example, went to the radio station because my

22 colleagues waited for me there at the radio station, and my wife waited

23 for me there too.

24 MR. PORYVAEV: Please slow down.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Now let's go back to the series of articles that you wrote and the

2 title was, "How I became a war criminal." You began with the 9th of May,

3 1993, and I didn't come across any chronology of events where you start

4 with the 7th of May. Is that because the event wasn't that important

5 because other reasons? I have to ask you that question.

6 A. Well, I don't know. It's just journalistic approach and the

7 amount of space I was given. I've also written a book. I'm sorry that

8 you haven't read my book.

9 Q. I've read it.

10 A. No, you haven't. Had you read my book, you wouldn't be asking me

11 that. But I began with the 9th of May because it's an interesting date.

12 The 9th of May is the day when there was the battle or, rather it's the

13 international World Day of the Fight Against Fascism, for example.

14 Q. Well, let's go back to when you arrived in Jablanica. You arrived

15 from Ancona to Sarajevo and Sarajevo, Jablanica?

16 A. Yes, I came to fetch my wife.

17 Q. Was that in January?

18 A. No it was in February.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down and make

20 pauses between question and answer. Thank you.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, February --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, witness, speak less fast

23 because it's hard for the interpreters to follow and also the interpreters

24 are asking for breaks between questions and answers.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. We have a statement here, which you gave on the 7th of March,

2 1994, to the military police of the 4th Corps. That was right after your

3 release, when I assume your memory was fresher than it is now. And you

4 also start off with the 9th of May, 1993. You make no mention of the 7th

5 of May, 1993, at all.

6 A. Well, perhaps this wasn't interesting to the investigators.

7 Q. When I look at the introductory part, you say: "After he

8 arrived," which means you arrived, "at this department, the military

9 police battalion, because of his detention on the 7th of March, 1994," and

10 then you continue to give, as you say, the following statement.

11 I'm not challenging the fact that you were taken away on the 7th

12 of May; I'm just telling you what the statement says. But what I kind

13 noteworthy is that here, too, your starting date is the 9th of May, 1993.

14 A. That may well be the case.

15 Q. It's perfectly all right for you to go back to your statement and

16 have a look, if you like. It's right there in front of you.

17 A. As many others, if I may be allowed to, they probably also

18 believed that that a six-hour detention is not much of a detention at all.

19 They didn't see fit to record that.

20 I did write down all the circumstances and in great detail myself.

21 It helped me to remain sane. However, everything that I had to go through

22 after those several hours at the Faculty of Mechanical Engineering is

23 hardly worth mentioning when compared to all the suffering that I

24 underwent later on.

25 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go back to the 19th of October,

1 1993. We heard about what you went through, Dretelj, Ljubuski, Heliodrom,

2 and so on and so forth.

3 On the 19th of October, 1993, you received a certificate, or at

4 least that's what you said, at the Faculty of Mechanical Engineering?

5 A. No, nobody gave me anything.

6 Q. You signed it, didn't you?

7 A. I signed this in the central prison building. This document. I'm

8 not sure what it said exactly, what it was about, but I signed and that

9 meant I was free.

10 Q. This is not the same document that was faxed to you later on from

11 West Mostar with the list of people to be freed; right?

12 A. No, probably not. My signature is not there, is it?

13 Q. All right. You say that you were released after pressure from the

14 international journalists' association and from Ljubljana's journalist

15 association.

16 A. It was pressure from IFG [as interpreted]. It's International

17 Association of Journalists and Publishers.

18 Q. Can you please look at the following document: This is 6D 00349.

19 This is a statement from Habena. You know what that is; right?

20 A. Of course I do.

21 Q. It's the Bosnian news agency. I suppose you've seen this, haven't

22 you?

23 A. No, first time.

24 Q. It's not a long document. I think you can just skim through it.

25 This is a statement made by Vladislav Pogarcic, head of the human

1 rights and humanitarian issues department with the office of the president

2 of Herceg-Bosna.

3 Does this reflect what you spoke about? Is this a result of what

4 the -- this international association of journalist started?

5 A. I don't see that here. There's no reference to IFJ or the

6 Ljubljana Association for Media Independence.

7 Q. But can this be a result of what they first started?

8 A. I don't know. I find that very difficult to comment because I see

9 nothing here to suggest that journalists requested our release. I see

10 this as an act of goodwill.

11 Q. If you don't know, that means we can't speak to it.

12 A. Especially since the investigation eventually showed something

13 else, which is stated here.

14 Q. All right. Let's just go back to this. On the 19th you're on

15 your way. You signed the paper, and together with everybody else, with

16 Bojana Mujanovic and Selma Dizdar and Sejo Beslagic and Mr. Andic, you

17 arrive in Mr. Pusic's office; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This office is in the centre of town; right?

20 A. Yes, it's known as the old Velez football stadium. It was

21 actually in a flat in one of the buildings that were built just before the

22 war.

23 Q. The distance from Heliodrom would be several kilometres; right?

24 As far as I know.

25 A. Five or six, yes.

1 Q. Kilometres; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You say that you spoke to Mr. Lugonja, to Mr. Radic, to

4 Mr. Obrenovic. Mr. Lugonja told you what he told you, and Mr. Pusic tried

5 there a way to make contact with your family so that you might be reunited

6 with your family, but you said it wasn't realistic or feasible at the

7 time; is that right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Eventually the Prosecutor showed you this document which is a

10 request from Mr. Pusic's office to allow you to travel to Croatia; right?

11 A. Right.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

13 questions for this witness. Thank you very much.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon,

15 Your Honours.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

17 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I have a few questions. I just want to

18 start with your background a little bit to make sure I understand it

19 correctly.

20 Now, back in -- in June 1993, you were -- you were questioned,

21 were you not? You gave a statement to the Croatian Community of --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And it was in that statement that you indicated that part

24 of your job with the information and propaganda service was to apply

25 journalistic and literary finishing touches to the material which came

1 from the information and propaganda unit. Do you recall making that --

2 saying that?

3 A. Approximately, yeah. Roughly speaking. Something similar.

4 Q. Okay. I just --

5 A. The wording itself I did find a bit strange sometimes.

6 Q. All right. So when you're talking about literary and journalistic

7 finishing touches, is that correcting the grammar or is that sort of

8 taking some poetic licence, as it were, with the content, because, as you

9 know, journalists have to sometimes have to make a story -- have to spice

10 it up in order to make it appealing to the audience?

11 A. Well, both. It was the syntax but I didn't really touch up the

12 substance as it related to anyone else. I produced my own substance.

13 Substance. But, you know, we had to chisel up a sentence or two so

14 because that's what journalists do, don't they.

15 Q. Well, and sometimes they embellish a little bit too. So would you

16 take the licence of embellishing if it meant making the story a little

17 more persuasive, a little more compelling for the audience? After all,

18 part of your job is to grab the attention of the audience and keep them

19 and hopefully even get more people to listen to you or to read your press,

20 whatever it is.

21 A. Well, as far as that period was concerned, I don't think you could

22 say that we had to really fight for people to listen to us. We had

23 listeners. We sure did.

24 Q. If you could answer my question there.

25 A. Most of them were --

1 Q. Well, would you embellish if necessary? I guess that's the --

2 okay.

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. All right. That's not your -- that's not how you operate, I take

5 it.

6 A. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by embellishing. I think that's

7 a clumsy term, isn't it.

8 Q. Okay. Embellishing would be, say, making something up.

9 A. No, certainly not. I never did that.

10 Q. All right. Now, you gave also a statement in 2002 to the Office

11 of the Prosecutor, as I recall.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And I take it, sticking to your journalistic ethics, when

14 you were recounting the events as you would write about or cover events in

15 your profession, you did not embellish at all either when you were giving

16 your statement. In other words, you just told the facts as you understood

17 it or remembered them to be?

18 A. Yes, for the most part. Naturally.

19 Q. All right. You told us you went to Prozor to cover that event.

20 At some point you went to Prozor; right? And you said you came back. And

21 that would have been in 1992; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you came back and you wanted to maybe -- to broadcast, to

24 report about it; right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And at that point in time, were your offices in the Vranica

2 building? Okay.

3 A. Yes, from the very outset that's where the offices were.

4 Q. I just wanted to make sure because I -- you know, the dates

5 confuse me a little bit.

6 And that was the same building that also had the headquarters of

7 the army of BiH; right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Okay. And so there would have been security there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And security with -- with arms?

12 A. Yes, like any security you might say.

13 Q. And at that time you were working essentially what -- don't take

14 this the wrong way, but am I to understand that this radio station was

15 sort of connected to, associated with part of the army of BiH?

16 A. No. There was no association.

17 Q. Okay. So in other words, this was strictly civilian, had nothing

18 to do with the military, nothing to do with -- it just -- it just happened

19 to -- by serendipity, to find space right by the headquarters of ABiH. Is

20 that your testimony?

21 A. Well, I wouldn't say it was a coincidence. It was for security

22 reasons that the officers were there, and I was the link between the army

23 and the radio station, and I was one of the editors, as you know.

24 Q. Okay. And in that statement -- and thank you for that answer, and

25 I'm going to press you just a little bit, because I found something rather

1 curious in your statement of 2002, which I didn't hear today. You

2 testified under oath. And I certainly didn't see it repeated, albeit you

3 might not have been asked about it in your statement of 2004, but in your

4 statement of 2002 you say that when the message was delivered to you that

5 you could not broadcast, the gentleman that had brought the message to you

6 put a gun to your head. That's what you said.

7 Now, first question is do you recall making the statement? And

8 that's a yes or no.

9 A. Yes, I made the statement --

10 Q. All right?

11 A. -- and that's indeed how it was.

12 Q. All right. Now, you would agree with me under oath today that you

13 didn't say anything about somebody delivering a statement and pointing a

14 gun to your head. I mean, it's not in the transcript and we can get it.

15 So you either said it or you didn't say. Now, do you recall saying that

16 today? Yes, no, maybe, I don't recall. Which of the four? That's all I

17 need.

18 A. I didn't mention that today. I did expect a question from the

19 OTP, and they said, "Was it on that piece of paper or not?" I said he

20 walked in with that gun but I never said that he placed this gun against

21 my head, so I'm saying what I said back in 2002 was correct. Mr. Zeljko

22 Dzida walked in with a gun --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- and that's true.

25 Q. All right. He walked in with the gun and was the gun to his side

1 inside a holster?

2 A. I kept a diary. We were live on the air.

3 Q. Okay. Let me read to you what you've said here, and we can give

4 you the version in your language. And incidentally I should tell you that

5 on every page you have initialed it, at least the English part, but in any

6 event, let me read to you what it says here. It says that, "A little

7 after 1600 hours HVO police chief Dzidic, Zeljko, aka Dzida, had come to

8 the radio station. Present were also Kuko Senad." I hope I'm pronouncing

9 it correctly, but I'm sure you get the drift. And -- and Manjgo?

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Could you be so kind as to indicate the page from

11 which you're quoting. Thank you.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. Page 4, it's page 4. I certainly

13 apologise. And this would be -- and I don't have the number of the

14 exhibit -- the exhibit number because it's not in, but this is something I

15 wasn't -- I expected the gentleman to say such an important event on

16 direct but obviously he didn't but we'll cure that little technicality.

17 And this would be, Your Honours, on page 4 and it's one, two, three four,

18 the fifth paragraph, the fifth paragraph on that page.

19 Q. And so if I can pick up where I left off. "... aka Kuko Senad and

20 Manjgo Asim who was in charge of the tones. Dzida came in with a piece of

21 paper in his hands, took a pistol, pointed it at my head and told me to

22 read what was written on the paper. I read." And then you go on.

23 Then in the following paragraph you say as you have said on

24 occasion, you have commented when you thought something was noteworthy,

25 you say: "The other interesting thing," that's part of your patois, it

1 would appear, you know, "The other interesting thing was that Dzida had to

2 pass through the security in the headquarters of the ABiH to come to the

3 basement where the radio was. When he came in the room I was in, pointing

4 the gun at my forehead. I thought that he had just killed -- I thought

5 that he had just killed everybody." And then you go on.

6 Now, I take it you don't deny making that statement back then in

7 2002 to the Office of the Prosecutor; right?

8 A. Yes, I did say that.

9 Q. And so when you were being asked questions by the Prosecutor,

10 because he did ask you more than one question about the delivery of the

11 message that you had to stop broadcasting, you didn't mention any of that

12 under oath; correct?

13 A. I don't think I understood you. Can you please repeat that for

14 me?

15 Q. All right. Okay. Let me -- I'll -- when you were being asked to

16 describe the event, the event that is of this individual coming to deliver

17 the notice to you, you did not describe any of that -- anything that I've

18 just read from your 2002 statement; correct?

19 A. I gave a statement in 2002, didn't I. Do you expect me to say

20 that a thousand times perhaps? I'm telling you again. I'm telling you

21 again exactly what I said back in 2002.

22 Q. When I -- did you say that under oath today on direct examination

23 when questioned by the Prosecutor after he took you in his office and

24 proofed you so you would be prepared to answer his questions here today?

25 Did you say that today on direct examination when he was questioning you?

1 That's a yes or a no.

2 A. I didn't mention that today, but I mentioned it back in 2002, and

3 I'm telling you again.

4 Q. Would you agree with me, sir -- help me how out here now. Would

5 you agree with me that this is something noteworthy? This is something

6 significant? This is something you would just not pass over and omit to

7 say, especially if you've come here to tell the truth, the whole truth,

8 and nothing but the truth? And what I'm suggesting is -- and what I'm

9 suggesting is, so I can drive my point home is: Sir, you are a man that

10 embellishes, and it may be a professional habit, but you are someone who

11 embellishes on the facts, and at least in 2002 you were embellishing on

12 the facts, and that's the point I'm trying to drive home right now. And

13 what do you say to that?

14 A. I never added anything to the facts during my interview with this

15 investigator, which was a brief one. That's the one you're referring to.

16 I don't see fit then or today when answering questions by the OTP as to

17 what Dzida brought me. He brought me a slip of paper. I just focused on

18 the fact that there was a note on that slip of paper. He was adamant that

19 I should say what I read on that slip of paper. I said he was armed. Of

20 course he was. He went past the security at the Vranica building and he

21 pulled out a gun and placed it against my temple. I said that back in

22 2002 and I'm still saying it.

23 Q. You're saying it now; you didn't say it on direct. But that's

24 besides the point. We'll move on. I'm going to go through some documents

25 here and again we're going to move rather quickly.

1 Oh, I'm told I have to deliver the documents. If I can get the

2 assistance of the usher.

3 We're moving quicker than we anticipated, and it may be that we

4 will all conclude by tomorrow. There's a good possibility.

5 Okay. Sir, before you go through the documents, we're going to go

6 one by one, okay, to save time.

7 The first document is 1D 01414. There's no need for a lot of

8 commentary. I just want to point a few things out to the Trial Chamber.

9 Do you recognise this document, sir? It's a yes or a no. Have

10 you ever seen it? You can look at the page --

11 A. No.

12 Q. That's a no.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Do you have the -- if you look at the third or fourth page,

15 you'll see that it's in -- it's in your language. Have you seen that?

16 A. Yes. I know that this was published, but I've never seen it

17 before.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. It's a magazine for culture, right.

20 Q. Okay. And we see here it was published in Mostar in 1992.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: And just for the Court's benefit, we see that

22 there's -- you can purchase it in either Croatian dinars, Deutschmarks, or

23 BiH dinars. So we have a choice as to what sort of currency. And that's

24 all we need at this point in time right now with this particular document.

25 You know, I'm sure the Court can -- will find the one area where -- I

1 believe it's on third page in English where they wish to thank their

2 friends for the publishing of that. But that's all I wanted to point out

3 for that document.

4 Now, if we go to the next document. It's 1D 01415. And again

5 very quickly.

6 You have the original version. Okay. "Mostar morning." Have you

7 ever heard of that? Yes or no?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And here it talks about May -- we have a date of May 22nd,

10 1992. That would have been published back then, would it not? I mean

11 June. June 11, 1992.

12 A. Yes. Yes, the 1st of November [as interpreted].

13 Q. So June 11, 1992, we do in fact have -- we do in fact have

14 publications in Mostar by the Muslim community; correct?

15 A. This is a publication by the 1st Mostar Brigade. I wouldn't say

16 that it belongs to the Muslim community. The 1st Mostar Brigade was made

17 up of Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats alike.

18 Q. All right. Okay. And I think that's -- now just for the benefit

19 of the record, if we could go to page 3 in the English version.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: There's just a greeting from the HVO of Mostar

21 municipality headquarters. I just wish to point this out to the Judges at

22 this point in time. And again, keep -- and then again keeping in mind the

23 date. And then if we go on to page 4, also by the Croatian Community, you

24 will see a greetings and wishes for the holiday of Kurban Bajram.

25 So that's all we need for this document.

1 Q. And again, sir, don't worry. You're being used as sort of a

2 conduit to get documents in that may be relevant at some other point. It

3 may also have to deal with some of your testimony as well.

4 If we could go to the next document, 1D 01416. 1416. Okay.

5 And here in this document is dated August 24, 1992. Do you see

6 that, sir?

7 A. Yes, 1992.

8 Q. And here is a -- and this is a list of employees? You know, for

9 the radio station Mostar; is that correct?

10 A. I don't know. I wasn't an employee myself.

11 Q. All right. But on that list do you see any Muslim names?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you count and tell us more or less how many of them do you

14 see?

15 A. I don't know which of these people really feel Muslims. That's

16 the question, and I'm not one to count them, am I.

17 Q. Well --

18 A. What exactly do you mean when you say "Muslim"? What's in a name?

19 A name means nothing.

20 Q. Well, let me -- well, they were at the time a constituent peoples;

21 right? That's what they were called before they changed to Bosniak;

22 right? I don't mean any disrespect in that manner. Right? Okay but --

23 A. Okay. I simply don't know which of these were Muslims.

24 Q. Let me help you out.

25 A. Zlata cuts both ways. Could be Muslim, could be something else.

1 I don't know.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... okay, what about number 5.

3 Omer?

4 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, I would object. It seems to me

5 Mr. Karnavas is flogging a dead horse. The response has been given.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't think this horse is being flogged nor is it

7 dead, but if we could just go down the list, Your Honours.

8 Q. Number 5, Omer. Is that a Muslim name? Yes or no.

9 A. As far as I know, that's a Muslim name.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... number 6?

11 A. As to whether this particular Omer is a Muslim or not, I really

12 can't be expected to say.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... number 6. Does that ring a

14 bell?

15 A. Anes. Anes is a very lovely Muslim name.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

17 A. But I don't know whether this particular Anes is a Muslim or not.

18 Q. Okay. Number 7. Mirela.

19 A. I'm not sure.

20 Q. Okay. That could cut both ways, you say. Are you saying that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right. Okay, number 9,

23 Dzemal. Certainly not a Serbian name. Right?

24 A. Well. It's an interesting name, a lovely name.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

1 A. But I don't know.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. He's a Muslim or not.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. It could be a Muslim name. It could be. Mostly it's a Muslim

6 name.

7 Q. Number 11.

8 A. Same thing.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. I could say the same thing about each and every one of these.

11 Q. And number 13?

12 A. Same thing.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Damir. It's international, isn't it?

15 Q. Okay. Well, it could be. Could very well be that they had an

16 international staff on this -- and a multi-ethnic one at that, at this

17 radio station, which may negate some of your -- your assertions, sir, that

18 the Muslims were ethnically cleansed from the radio station. That's the

19 whole point of the discussion here, and I hope that the Trial Chamber sees

20 that and also takes note of your attitude in being disputatious and at

21 least pointing out what names are or are not Muslim, at least by -- by the

22 looks of them. Okay?

23 A. Excuse me. I'm not challenging whether these names are Muslim or

24 not. I'm just wondering about the people behind the names.

25 Q. Okay.

1 A. I think that's a legitimate issue.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I --

3 A. You can't simply.

4 Q. I'll take that answer.

5 A. Tell me, assure me that some of these people are Muslims if in

6 fact you don't know.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Well, I wanted you to point out the names but,

8 fine, we'll move on.

9 The next document is 1D 01417. And this is dated November 5,

10 1992, and these are the employees of the radio station. Again, and I

11 don't want to go through this list again, but would you agree with me that

12 there are Muslim names? We don't know whether the people behind the names

13 are Muslim. They could be Greek for all I know, but at least the names

14 themselves look -- there are names that are Muslim, and there are several

15 of them; right?

16 A. Yes, there are Muslim names.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to need about five to

19 perhaps seven minutes, you know, maybe 10 tomorrow, and I know that we

20 want to make sure that we end on time.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Tomorrow.

22 MR. KARNAVAS:

23 Q. Thank you very much, sir. You have a lovely evening. We'll see

24 you tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

1 So we will resume tomorrow with Mr. Karnavas who will have 10

2 minutes to finish.

3 Witness, please, you are now under oath. So you can have no

4 contact with Prosecution, and you should see no one until tomorrow.

5 We will resume tomorrow at 2.15 p.m. Thank you for coming back

6 for this hearing tomorrow at 2.15.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day

9 of May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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