Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18665

1 Thursday, 17 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours. This

8 is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Good afternoon to all the people present here, representatives of

11 the OTP, Defence counsel, and accused. In a few moments we're going to

12 have a new witness, but before he comes in, let me say this: Yesterday,

13 Mr. Praljak forwarded to the Trial Chamber a document in which he asked

14 for some questions to be put to the witness. I gave this paper an IC

15 number. I remind you that if you wish to communicate with the Trial

16 Chamber on behalf of an accused, you must forward it to the counsel who

17 can forward the document further on or intervene already or can rise at

18 any moment to put the question if it is his turn to do so or because he

19 wants to change anything to the transcript, because he saw there was a

20 mistake in it or because he has something important to say.

21 Regarding the next witness, as you know, I told you that the

22 Prosecution would have one hour for the direct examination and one hour

23 and a half [Realtime transcript read in error "one hour"] for the Defence.

24 Further to the Rules, I conduct, control the way witnesses are heard in

25 order to avoid any waste of time. I would like to they will to Mr.

Page 18666

1 Praljak, because I suppose he's going to ask questions of the witness. I

2 tell him that the witness is going to testify as to what he saw on the 8th

3 of December whilst -- sorry. Sorry. I misspoke. On the 8th of November,

4 whilst the bridge fell on the next day, on the 9th of November. So this

5 witness is going to speak about tank fire on the 8th of November.

6 Regarding the 9th of November, the Prosecutor intends to submit

7 certain documents to the witness, and I saw in them that several of them

8 were signed by (redacted), who is mentioned as a possible Prosecution

9 witness in the 65 ter list. If the said witness is going to testify, and

10 I see no reason why he shouldn't, you could ask relevant questions of that

11 witness as to what happened on the 9th of November and to give you a full

12 picture and to avoid any sort of side-tracking, I remind you that through

13 previous witnesses another document was introduced mentioning proceedings

14 against the three tank soldiers who were manning the tank. Remember, we

15 have a document mentioning this.

16 In a few moments, during cross-examination, I would like

17 Mr. Kovacic to tell me -- whether through his questions or through the

18 answers, tell me exactly what Mr. Praljak's position was on the 8th or 9th

19 of November. Indeed, we received evidence indicating that Mr. Praljak had

20 left his office early November, and I don't know exactly when he left that

21 position. If he did so on the 9th of November, on that day, on the 9th of

22 November, he could not have played any part in the firing that took place

23 on that day. So this should be clarified for the sake of the Trial

24 Chamber to specify when Mr. Praljak left office in November, since we know

25 that he did so in that month, in November 1993.

Page 18667

1 This is what I wanted to convey to you to the extent that I am

2 under the obligation of conducting the way the testimony is going to take

3 place, which was specified in an appeals decision in the Jean-Paul Akayseu

4 case. The Appeals Chamber, in response to the seventh ground of appeal

5 the defendant, said that the Presiding Judge has the duty, the duty, the

6 obligation to control the way in which a witness is heard.

7 I will now ask for the witness to be brought in, for him to make

8 the solemn declaration.

9 In the meantime, registrar, can you give me a number, an IC

10 number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. We've received the Office

12 of the Prosecutor's response to Mr. Stojic's objection to the admission of

13 exhibits relating to the witness Finlayson, and that will be IC 562.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, just a small point. On the transcript

15 this morning -- this afternoon, rather, it shows that Your Honour said one

16 hour for Prosecution, one hour for Defence. I think Your Honour's have in

17 mind an hour and a half, which is what you said yesterday for the Defence.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely, one hour and a half.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Just to clear that up.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,

21 Mr. Stewart.

22 Yes. I did not divide the time among the teams because I thought

23 you would do it yourselves, but failing an agreement, it seems logical for

24 Mr. Praljak to have 40 minutes and for the remainder of the time to be

25 split among the other teams. So 10 minutes for each team. You could also

Page 18668

1 decide to devote your time or give your time away to Mr. Praljak, if you

2 so wish.

3 [The witness entered court]


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

7 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sorry for having delay your

9 testimony. You had to wait all day yesterday. We thought you could start

10 yesterday, but due to problems related to the previous witness it was not

11 possible to do so, so please accept our apologies.

12 Can you please state your first name, surname, and date of birth.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Enes Delalic. I was born

14 on the 1st of August, 1956, in Ljubuski.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your occupation, your

16 current occupation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a professional driver. Now I

18 work as a guard. I am attached to the same company that I used to drive a

19 bus for.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, have you had an opportunity

21 to testify before a court, a national or international court as to the

22 events that took place in your country, or is this the first time you're

23 going to testify?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. This is the very first

25 time.

Page 18669

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn

2 declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please sit

6 down.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, some explanations very

9 briefly as to the way this hearing is going to unfold. You are going to

10 be first asked questions by the representative of the Prosecution. I

11 suppose you have met with him already some time ago. And following this

12 initial phase, Defence counsel or accused themselves can ask questions on

13 cross-examination. You have four Judges in front of you. They, too, can

14 ask questions. According to the Rules they can ask questions at any time,

15 but we try as much as possible to do so only towards the end when

16 everybody has asked their questions, but sometimes, exceptionally so, we

17 do ask questions because we have to. So this is how your testimony is

18 going to take place.

19 Please try to it answer as precisely as possible. If at any point

20 in time you do not feel well for any reason, please just tell us so.

21 I'm now going to give the floor to the Prosecution, who is going

22 to start with the direct examination.

23 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

24 Your Honours and to everybody else in and about the courtroom.

25 Examination by Mr. Flynn:

Page 18670

1 Q. And good afternoon, Mr. Delalic.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. I'm going to start with some background questions firstly, and I'd

4 ask you to be as brief as possible where you can. Can you tell us simply

5 where you were living at the very early part of 1993?

6 A. It's called Donja Mahala, Gojka Vukovica 75. That was the house

7 and the street number.

8 Q. And would it be correct to say that Donja Mahala is situated in

9 the city of Mostar and is situated on the right bank; that is, the west

10 side?

11 A. Yes, that's right. It's on the west bank, in the west of Mostar.

12 On the west bank of the Neretva River.

13 Q. And would it also be correct to say that this was an area or

14 district which was predominantly inhabited by Bosnian Muslims?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, do you remember, did a serious armed conflict break out as

17 between Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats in Mostar in or around May 9th,

18 1993, lasting well into 1994?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. And did this conflict result in the establishment of confrontation

21 lines within the city of Mostar between the protagonist forces?

22 A. Yes, it did.

23 Q. Just for the record, what were the Bosnian Croat forces known as?

24 A. The HVO.

25 Q. Now, your district, Donja Mahala, was it located to the

Page 18671

1 confrontation lines between the protagonist forces?

2 A. No. It was under the control of the BH army, this part of Donja

3 Mahala.

4 Q. And where was the nearest confrontation line to it?

5 A. The nearest line was exactly where my flat was, which was the

6 last, deepest line.

7 Q. And after the conflict began did you and your family remain

8 residing in Donja Mahala?

9 A. It wasn't possible for reasons of safety. I had two children and

10 a wife. I was a member of the police units myself; therefore, it wasn't

11 possible for me to stay there. My father lived on the west bank, and

12 there was the bridge between us. So I moved my children to my father's

13 flat at Tekija to stay with him.

14 Q. And when did you move your family there? Can you tell us that?

15 A. Right after the first clashes erupted.

16 Q. Now, did all the Bosnian Muslims living in Donja Mahala, did they

17 move to East Mostar or did they stay in Donja Mahala?

18 A. No. Not all of them had the same opportunity that I did,

19 unfortunately. They stayed there.

20 Q. Were there some that moved to the other bank voluntarily?

21 A. Not voluntarily. They were driven by their trouble.

22 Q. So you originally were living in Donja Mahala and you moved to

23 this Tekija. With the permission of the Court, could I show you a

24 photograph which doesn't form part of the exhibit bundle but which --

25 copies of which I have made, hard copies, available to the Court and to my

Page 18672

1 colleagues on the Defence, and perhaps just so that we can orientate

2 ourselves, perhaps you could tell us if you recognise the photo, if you

3 see your house -- or your own apartment, and if you see the place where

4 you moved your family to.

5 MR. FLYNN: Perhaps we could put it on the ELMO, if it's possible.

6 I will need an IC number for this photograph.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be IC 563.


9 Q. If you could move it --

10 A. Yes, that's right. I can see it.

11 Q. Can you point out to the Trial Chamber where your apartment is or

12 was at the time the conflict started?

13 A. Right here. That's my flat. At the top of the building.

14 Q. Perhaps you could put an X on it for us.

15 A. Right there. In the attic.

16 Q. Now, can you tell us where you moved to? Can you see the area

17 which you moved to on the map? I think if you move it over to the right

18 you may come to it.

19 A. I see it. I see it.

20 Q. If we could move the photograph. It's slightly out -- out of view

21 from the ELMO. Move it a little bit more. A little bit more. A little

22 bit more. Thank you.

23 A. Yes, that's it.

24 Q. Could you put an A where you say your father's flat was.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 18673

1 Q. Do you see the area in the foreground of the photograph? It's an

2 elevated position. Do you -- it's almost across the road from your own

3 house. Do you recognise that?

4 A. Yes, I do. That is Stotina.

5 Q. That is Stotina. Now --

6 A. Infamous Stotina.

7 Q. Now, you told us you were a police officer. Could you tell us

8 where you were working and whether or not you went to your work every day

9 from your home -- from your temporary home in Tekija?

10 A. Yes, every day.

11 Q. And where did you go to work? Where was your work location

12 situated?

13 A. I took a street called Santiceva Street, and that's where the

14 police station was, in the Partizan cinema building.

15 Q. I think that's located far off into the centre of the city. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's right. It's in the centre of the city near the Musala

18 bridge. It used to be called Marsal Tito's bridge.

19 Q. Now, even though you were living in Tekija, did you ever return to

20 your apartment during the conflict?

21 A. Yes. I occasionally returned to just check on my flat and see

22 what was going on.

23 Q. And would it be correct to say that one would be able to see the

24 activity on Stotina hill from your apartment?

25 A. Yes, that is true. It wasn't really a relaxed viewing, so to

Page 18674

1 speak, but if you tried hard you could have an open view, yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us who occupied the hill of Stotina during the

3 conflict?

4 A. It was HVO controlled. It was controlled by the Croatian forces.

5 Q. Did you personally see HVO troops there on the hill?

6 A. Yes, occasionally. I sometimes used a pair of binoculars, and

7 sometimes I would get my camera to film something in the heat of the

8 moment, so to speak, but very little.

9 Q. I mean, how would you have known they were HVO? Could you give us

10 a brief description of what you saw? How were they dressed?

11 A. Well, there were those wearing black uniforms, those wearing

12 camouflage uniforms, and they all displayed HVO insignia.

13 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see any military activity on

14 the hill?

15 A. They had a bunker at Stotina. They would go there, and they used

16 that position to fire at the west bank, and they didn't let anyone go by.

17 Q. And when you say when they fired at the west bank, what were they

18 firing with?

19 A. All sorts of weapons that they had, rifles, tanks, anti-aircraft

20 guns. All sorts of things. Whatever they had. They used whatever they

21 had.

22 Q. Over the past month or so the panel had some -- had quite a

23 considerable amount of evidence presented to it to the effect that there

24 was sniping coming from the hill of Stotina. Now, I don't need to go into

25 any detail, but could you simply confirm that there was indeed sniping

Page 18675

1 coming from Stotina?

2 A. Everybody knows it, don't they? There's no need to confirm

3 something like that, but if you want me to, I can, yes.

4 Q. Now, these people who were still living in Donja Mahala during the

5 conflict, how did they maintain contact with the people living on the

6 other bank?

7 A. Well, via the bridges, the bridges that were still left.

8 Actually, they had all been destroyed with the exception of the Old

9 Bridge.

10 Q. And apart from the Old Bridge was there any other bridge that the

11 people on the west bank and the east bank would use to keep in contact?

12 A. Yes. Our own army made a bridge called the Kamenica bridge, and

13 then there was another bridge called Tenzin Bridge, and then there was the

14 Old Bridge, and further down we had the Tito Bridge, which the UNHCR had

15 put up. It was a provisional bridge. But that one was damaged, too,

16 later on.

17 Q. So for the record, who was in control of the Stari Most and the

18 Kamenica bridge?

19 A. The Bosnian forces, we.

20 Q. Now, you spoke about this military activity that you witnessed in

21 Stotina and the firing that came from Stotina. Apart from the sniping,

22 did you have -- did you ever have an opportunity to witness firing from

23 Stotina from any heavier weapons?

24 A. Yes, of course I did. There was a tank demolishing the bridge,

25 and I certainly remember that quite clearly. And anti-aircraft guns were

Page 18676

1 used too. There was one being used.

2 Q. Can you remember what date this happened on? Can you describe to

3 us what happened?

4 A. I filmed the tank on the 8th of November --

5 Q. Of which year?

6 A. -- sometime. 1993.

7 Q. And what time did you start to film the tank? Can you remember

8 approximately?

9 A. Sometime about 10.30. Thereabouts. I can't quite remember

10 specifically. It was a long time ago. But there's the footage and it's

11 self-explanatory. It's all there.

12 Q. Before we go to that, can you tell us how it was that it came to

13 your attention that there was a tank firing from Stotina, and where you

14 were at that particular time and what you actually did?

15 A. That day I was at home. It was my day off. Prior to that, I had

16 been at work. Sometime the previous night I arrived back home. The next

17 morning I heard a tank firing. It was nearby. I was in my flat at

18 Tekija. This piqued my curiosity and since there was sufficient time for

19 me to go and film, at first I tried to observe a little lest I should lose

20 any footage. I wanted to be sure that I would take a good shot of it and

21 to see where it was positioned and where it was firing from.

22 Q. And how was it that you knew specifically where the tank was?

23 A. Well, there was a lady neighbour of mine across from where I

24 lived, and she was the one I asked. Quite simply, I asked, "Where's this

25 coming from?" I could hear it nearby but I couldn't see it. I could hear

Page 18677

1 the sound coming from Stotina. I couldn't spot the tank right away,

2 though. I was also afraid of snipers. So at first I looked around to see

3 that it was safe, and she said that, "Don't tell me you can't see it.

4 There's a tank right there. It's Stotina." "All right, Stotina," I said,

5 but I couldn't spot it right away. I just heard the sound of a tank

6 firing, which is a familiar sound. You know what a tank sounds like, and

7 you know what other weapons sound like when firing.

8 At one point I did spot it. I grabbed my camera, and I got ready

9 to film. At first I could tell by the sound that it was nearby. I set my

10 camera up, and my neighbour was telling me, "Can't you see it? Can't you

11 see it?" She must have been the first to stop spot it. She said, "Can't

12 you see?" So I climbed a chair to get a better view and I finally

13 spotted, noticed the tank.

14 Q. Where exactly were you when you had the camera on you climbed on

15 the chair? Were you in your own apartment?

16 A. No. I was in my neighbour's apartment, and her name was Mejra

17 Hadzic. And her daughter was there, too, in the apartment, Zejna Hadzic.

18 Q. I see. Sorry for interrupting. If you could continue. You had

19 just climbed onto the chair.

20 A. Yes, that's right, and that's when I started filming. I zoomed in

21 to make it closer. I was looking at it, but I was afraid because there

22 was sniper firing from the neighbouring house from time to time. So I

23 didn't want him to hit me, and I didn't want to cause any harm to myself,

24 so I did it carefully. And at one point I saw the tank, and I saw the

25 firing coming out of the tank as it fired. So I zoomed in, filmed it, and

Page 18678

1 keep the tape as evidence.

2 Q. Now, as you climb onto the chair and you began to zoom in on the

3 location where the tank was, can you tell us: What direction were you

4 pointing your camera in?

5 A. I pointed it in the direction of Stotina, which is where the tank

6 was.

7 Q. And as you were filming, did you have an opportunity to see any of

8 its crew?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You say that you saw it firing. Can you tell us how many times

11 you saw it firing during the period that you were filming?

12 A. Well, I can't remember now, but it was 10 to 15 times.

13 Q. And did you speak to your neighbour as -- at the same time as you

14 were filming?

15 A. Well, yes. We discussed it for a while, and then we listened to

16 the news over the radio as well to see what they were saying, to see

17 whether it was the bridge that was being targeted. So our people were

18 broadcasting that over the radio.

19 Q. When you say "the radio," you mean the public radio?

20 A. Yes, that's right, the public radio. And they played music on the

21 radio, too, for us.

22 Q. And as you were watching this tank, did you note whether or not it

23 fired in the same direction all the time, or can you tell us if it changed

24 direction?

25 A. Well, what I noticed was only in one direction. It did move

Page 18679

1 around and make moves forward and backwards, but it was always the same

2 direction.

3 Q. Were you in a position to see what it was firing at from the

4 location from where you were filming?

5 A. Well, from where I was filming I couldn't see that, but it was

6 quite obvious. You knew where he would be firing.

7 Q. Were you able to see any evidence at all anywhere in the direction

8 to which it was firing, that it might have hit anything?

9 A. Well, I didn't actually see that, but I did see that the barrel

10 was turned in the direction of the Old Bridge, and I heard over the radio,

11 too, reports that it was targeting the foundations of the bridge.

12 Q. Now, did there come a stage when this tank stopped firing and, if

13 so, when was that, if you can remember?

14 A. It was sometime around evening or about 5.00. It was a long time

15 ago. I can't remember everything, but thereabouts.

16 Q. So you say you started filming in the morning. The tank stopped

17 firing in the evening. Were you filming all the way through?

18 A. Yes, that's right. Well, not the whole time, actually, because my

19 camera couldn't film for a long time, but I did film the most important

20 moments.

21 Q. When the tank stopped -- stopped firing, do you remember whether

22 or not it had become dark or whether it was still bright?

23 A. Well, it was still daylight. When I stopped filming - my battery

24 expired, and then I had to stop - but it carried on firing. Not for a

25 long time after that, and then it was silent afterwards, as far as I

Page 18680

1 remember.

2 Q. Did you at any stage after the firing had -- had ceased, try to

3 find out exactly what it had been firing at or confirmed -- confirmed for

4 yourself that -- that it had hit anything?

5 A. I learnt that the next day, where it was shooting at, what it was

6 shooting at, because I listened to the news. So I knew it that day. I

7 knew it was the direction, so I wasn't wrong.

8 Q. And taking the next day, the 9th of November, 1993, can you

9 remember did you either hear or see the tank again on that day, or had it

10 ceased completely?

11 A. It fired the next day, too, but I had to go to work to take up my

12 shift. I called it my job, my work, but it was a shift, actually, that I

13 was doing. And so I stayed at work. But I did happened to notice at

14 around half past 10.00 or 11.00 that there was heavy shooting, strong

15 firing, and I wondered what it was. The tank is firing all the time.

16 It's just firing and firing. And some people were even crying, and I

17 wondered what was happening, and they said, "Well, the Old Bridge has

18 fallen." And I said, "Well, that can't be possible." And they

19 said,"Yes." So the day before I had seen this tank firing, and the tank

20 demolished the bridge, and that's what actually happened.

21 Q. And when you -- did you actually see the bridge fall yourself with

22 your own eyes from where you were?

23 A. No, I didn't. I didn't see it fall, but on my way back I saw that

24 the bridge wasn't standing any more.

25 Q. And did anything significant happen on the 9th of November to

Page 18681

1 indicate that the bridge had fallen?

2 A. Of course. They were rejoicing. They were shooting all over the

3 place. It was general merriment when they demolished the bridge.

4 Q. Now, when you started to film was there a clock on the screen of

5 your video recording the time?

6 A. Yes. There was a clock which recorded the time, but I had to turn

7 the clock back. So it was the old time that I had, and I didn't adjust

8 it.

9 Q. So during the time -- during the period you were filming, it

10 wasn't actually realtime? How far was it out? How far had you to adjust

11 it?

12 A. No, it wasn't realtime.

13 Q. How much did you have to adjust it?

14 A. An hour exactly, one hour. Well, you had to set the clock back,

15 as you do.

16 Q. Did you -- did you save video which you had taken of the tank

17 firing and keep it after the war?

18 A. Yes, I did keep it, precisely so I could have it as evidence if I

19 ever needed it, and then I offered it to The Hague Tribunal.

20 Q. So in 19 -- in 2006, on learning that you had the tape, did the

21 ICTY contact you, and did you hand over the tape to the ICTY?

22 A. Yes, I did, of my own free will. And I was in a daily called the

23 Daily Avaz. An article came out about me. I think it came out on the

24 17th of May, so that people called me up, but I just decided to give to

25 The Hague.

Page 18682

1 Q. And did you make any alterations or changes to the clip relating

2 to the 8th of November, 1993, before giving it to the ICTY?

3 A. No, nothing. The cassette wasn't -- the cassette wasn't touched.

4 It's the original one. It's the same one that I took out of the camera,

5 and it's like that today as it was then.

6 Q. Now, just in relation to my question about the video clock, for

7 your information, you will know this obviously, the clip relating to the

8 8th of November on the original tape started at 1100 hours. So if the

9 screen showed 1100 hours on your video, what was the actual real time?

10 A. Well, that should have been 10.00 then, and that's quite certain.

11 I think that on the video I actually say that. I utter those words.

12 Q. And similarly, the video closes for the 8th of November in or

13 around the -- 16.57. Can I take it, therefore, that the real time would

14 have been approximately 15.57?

15 A. Correct, sir.

16 Q. Now, at this stage I'd like to show you a video extract from

17 Exhibit P 09889, which is an extract from video 7035, which is the video

18 that you handed to the ICTY. And if you look at your monitor, we will

19 play the video, and then I will ask you a few short questions.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Can you see the fire? I can hear it

22 but can't see it.

23 "Mejra: There it is, at Stotka.

24 "Enes: I'd like to see it. You can see it, hear it working.

25 It's targeting the Old Bridge.

Page 18683

1 "Mejra: It's targeting the foundation.

2 "Enes: Can you see where it's coming from? [No interpretation.


4 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you recognise this videotape?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.


8 Q. And the scenes that we played. Is this a part of the video that

9 you presented to the --

10 A. I do recognise it, yes.

11 Q. And is this a part of the video that you presented to the ICTY?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And can you confirm to us, is that you speaking during the

14 filming?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. And is that the neighbour whose name you mentioned to us earlier

17 on?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 MR. FLYNN: Your Honours, I'd like, for the record, to be -- it

20 noted that the tank was seen or heard on the video clip that we showed for

21 the period the 8th of November, 1993, that's the Exhibit P 09889, to have

22 fired on one occasion between 16.53 and 16.54, once between 16.54 and

23 16.55, once between 16.55 and 15 -- 16.56, twice between 16.56 and 16.57,

24 and twice between 16.57 and 16.58. And I'm explain to you the reasons

25 later.

Page 18684

1 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, you mentioned briefly -- I beg you pardon.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] If I might be allowed to say

3 something with regard to the record and transcript as to what was seen on

4 the video. I have a comment to make. First of all, the video will

5 probably be tendered and everybody will be able to judge what can be seen

6 on the tape, but I for one, perhaps I'm wrong, but I never saw the tank,

7 as my learned friend is observing. We heard shooting. It can be a tank,

8 but it need not. So once again, that observation must be assessed and

9 appraised.

10 And now some additional explanation. We tried to view the video

11 with the help of a better device, and we couldn't see the tank. The tank

12 cannot be seen on the video.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

14 MR. FLYNN: And I don't disagree with Mr. Kovacic in any way. I

15 found it very difficult to see the tank myself. Perhaps I can ask just

16 Mr. Delalic for one clarity question.

17 Q. Mr. Delalic, you saw how difficult it was to see the tank. Did

18 you yourself see the tank with your naked eye, and can you tell it us what

19 part of the tank you saw at any stage on the 8th of November, 1993?

20 A. Of course I saw it. I saw the turret and the barrel.

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to avoid any

22 misunderstanding, I did not challenge the fact that the witness saw the

23 tank --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And I shall take over.

25 Sir, what we shall do, we shall look at the video again, and when

Page 18685

1 you see the tank, say stop. Have you understood me? Very well.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, fine.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

4 continues] ... please.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you can see it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, please take a pen or

8 pointer and tell us where it is. You don't have one?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see a bit the turret. Well,

10 this is a really small screen here. When the journalist filmed it, you

11 could see it even better because I have a television screen which is a 72

12 screen. That should be the turret.

13 MR. FLYNN: I think he'll have to use his mouse to show

14 Your Honours. If he could come here, with your permission.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not where the arrow is.


17 Q. Mr. Delalic, if you could come over to this screen, you can show

18 us where it is, point the arrow at it.

19 A. That's the tank there.

20 MR. FLYNN: If the record could reflect that Mr. Delalic has

21 pointed to an object in the centre of the screen, slightly raised, shaded

22 grey.

23 Q. Mr. Delalic, what do you -- what part of the tank do you say that

24 is?

25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Before -- Your Honours.

Page 18686

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, you can challenge

2 this during the cross-examination. I'm very surprised by this. I told

3 you a while ago that there is an HVO document which acknowledges the fact

4 that there was a tank there, so you are going to discuss this now and say

5 that there was no tank.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I wasn't going to

7 challenge the witness on this point. I'm just reacting to the observation

8 made my learned friend in the transcript. He is recording what can be

9 seen. Now, I want to state that the witness just indicated a point on the

10 video which you can't see with the naked eye. You can't recognise it with

11 the naked eye. That's what I wanted to observe. And I just want to have

12 that on record, because what -- the way my learned friend characterised it

13 is going a bit too far, I would say.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the record, I note that the

15 image is inconclusive. All we can see is that before the witness said

16 "stop," we saw the flames, and we saw a shot being fired. Whether it's a

17 tank or a barrel or a cannon, it's very difficult to say.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would suggest that we continue looking at the

19 video, because now we are focused and maybe we see more or we see less.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only state that this is a

21 tank. That is my conviction.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 So we can continue to watch the videotape.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it with the naked eye.

Page 18687

1 Now at some point you will see the smoke coming out. I think you

2 can even hear the sound right now. There it is. It's firing now. This

3 is smoke coming out of the tank's exhaust pipe, right next there to the

4 chimney.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the record, the Bench has

6 noticed that on two occasions we saw smoke coming out. That's quite

7 visible on the screen. And for the record, I would also like to indicate

8 that we can clearly see or have been able to see clearly on three

9 occasions three shots being fired. The flames are very long and the

10 trajectory horizontal. This is quite clear on the screen. Nonetheless,

11 we cannot clearly see the shape of a tank because there's foliage in

12 front. This stands in the way, and we cannot clearly see that there is a

13 tank there.

14 Mr. Flynn, you have the floor.


16 Q. I think when you listen to the tape and you hear a the sound of

17 the heavy shot from the, let's call it for the sake of argument an object,

18 what you say is a tank, seconds before that tank fires we hear a lighter

19 calibre weapon firing, three bursts. Do you remember that happening, and

20 can you comment on that?

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I have to object to this

24 question, because I don't believe that my learned friend, or the witness,

25 for that matter, are experts to the extent that they could judge the kind

Page 18688

1 of weapon by the sound of it.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

3 continues] ... right, but on listening to the tape we can hear two sounds.

4 This is unquestionable. One sound which comes from the flames, which is

5 quite a specific sound, but we also hear -- in the absence of the flames,

6 we can hear a shot being fired, which is, in terms of decibels, much lower

7 and seems to come from a much smaller weapon. This is what we can

8 indicate as far as the sound is concerned without drawing any further

9 conclusions thereof.

10 Witness, you are the video-maker. We can hear two sounds. Is

11 that what you heard also when you were there? The second sound we can

12 hear, the sound which is more muffled, less loud, where does this sound

13 come from? Even if you're not an expert, you perhaps have some knowledge

14 of firearms, perhaps.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an anti-aircraft gun, most

16 probably. I can't be certain, but it was probably providing signals for

17 the actual firing, whether the target has been hit or not. It was

18 actually guiding the fire of the tank. That was my understanding. It was

19 providing guidance for the tank fire.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, what you've just said, this

21 comment you've just made, and this is -- I'm during to Mr. Kovacic in

22 order to avoid wasting any time.

23 You say at the time you were filming you heard the comment and

24 there was a comment which was recorded together with the tape; is that

25 right? So what we see hear is, in fact, on the tape. The comment was

Page 18689

1 made live, so to speak, at the time the person was filming -- the witness

2 was filming.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Flynn.

4 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, I'd like to give you another photograph. It's

6 an aerial photograph which the trial panel has seen previously during the

7 testimony of Mostar witnesses and which had previously been marked, I

8 believe, as IC 421, but perhaps a new IC number may be necessary.

9 Do you see where your house is on that? This is an aerial

10 photograph.

11 Perhaps you can turn it around the other way. It might be better.

12 Mr. Delalic, you can look at it on the ELMO itself. Do you see

13 where your house is?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you point and mark with an X where your house is, please.

16 A. [Marks]

17 [No interpretation]

18 Q. And across from that you have the hill of Stotina. If you could

19 pull that into focus, please. It needs to be moved over to the left.

20 Left. Keep -- no. Sorry, the other way. Keep going, please. Okay.

21 A. That's it.

22 Q. Now, you see the hill of Stotina. Can you mark on the map, if you

23 know, where the tank was located? Approximately.

24 A. Around about here.

25 Q. And across the river is Tekija. Could you mark approximately from

Page 18690

1 where you were filming. Mark that with an A, please -- sorry, with a B.

2 Approximately.

3 A. [Marks]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have indicated

5 where your house was, and you indicated where the tank was. What distance

6 is there between the house where you were filming from and the tank

7 according to you? How many metres are there between these two spots?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say exactly. It's the width

9 of the river times three, roughly speaking, which might amount to about

10 800 metres or thereabouts. I really can't be more specific than that. I

11 never measured the river.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you.

13 Mr. Flynn.

14 MR. FLYNN: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, you mentioned what happened on the 8th and the

16 9th. I'd like you to have a look at another two video clips which are

17 extracts from video 2777 --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all we'll give the map

19 an exhibit number. Registrar, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. That will be Exhibit IC

21 564.


23 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at another two video clips which are

24 extracts from 277 on Exhibit P 01040.

25 MR. FLYNN: And I can tell Your Honours this was provided on the

Page 18691

1 Rule 92 bis process by another witness relative to Mostar who annexed it

2 to his statement, and in the statement he said that, "I'm handing over to

3 you a one and a half hour video cassette that I personally recorded of

4 different programmes broadcast by the Croatian HTV in Mostar in 1993. In

5 the recordings there are a view of the Mostar bridge before the war and

6 when it was destroyed." And I can confirm that this video was disclosed

7 to the Defence in addition to the other one. If we could run both -- the

8 first clip, please.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. FLYNN: Now, that's the first clip. If we can now have the

11 second clip.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please. For the

13 record, I note that at 15.52 on this video clip dated the 8th of November

14 there is an impact on the bridge. At 15.53, a second impact on the

15 bridge. At 15.55, third impact on the bridge. And we can see that at the

16 time pieces of falling. You can see some water rising just at that time.

17 It's quite visible. At 15.55.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may ask a question. From which side is one

19 looking at the bridge, from down Neretva or from up Neretva? Do you know,

20 Witness? Does one look from the Donja Mahala side on the bridge in this

21 video, or has it been taken from the opposite side?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a view from Donja Mahala

23 towards the bridge. From Donja Mahala. You see, you can even see the

24 time. My camera didn't show the exact time, but now -- we need an expert

25 to compare the two videos. It is 100 per cent accurate. I categorically

Page 18692

1 state that my footage is authentic. I back my footage 100 per cent. I'm

2 100 per cent behind it. I've never had an opportunity to see this video

3 like this with the time and everything, but I've seen it now. I've

4 compared it, and if you're still not satisfied, perhaps we can get an

5 expert to confirm it for us.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No. I would like --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would complement the President says for the

9 regard that the impacts one sees on the bridge are all to the right side

10 of the middle of the bridge. That is, they are closing to East Mostar

11 than to West Mostar.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be that way, or at least

13 that's what I think, if the tank was firing from that position, and then

14 there's the Neretva River canyon.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: This was actually not a question, Witness. It

16 was just an entry for the record.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies then.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn.

19 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Mr. President. And I thank you for the

20 comments in relation to the times on the second bridge -- [French on

21 English channel] ... because I was going to mention it after we had seen

22 the second clip. But I'll ask the question.

23 Q. Before we move on to the second clip, I'll ask you first,

24 Mr. Delalic, the first the last clip you saw and you saw a number of

25 explosions on the bridge, specifically at 15.52, 15.53, and 15.55, and in

Page 18693

1 the video which you took, we saw what appears to be an object firing on a

2 number of occasions, you say, in the direction of the bridge, including at

3 times between 16.55 and 16.54, and 16.56 and 16.57, which in adjusted

4 realtime would be 15.53 and 15.56, which is, significantly, the time that

5 the explosions were seen on or against the bridge. Isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct. Even a child would know.

7 Q. And was there any other -- was there any other heavy weaponry that

8 you might identify as a tank that you could hear firing at these specific

9 times in the vicinity?

10 A. No, no other weapon but a tank. I saw the tank myself, especially

11 when the battery was beginning to run out and then the light began to

12 blink, and that's when I needed it most, but I couldn't. I would have

13 been able to take a better shot of it right then, but it was no longer

14 possible.

15 Q. Now, I'd like you to have a look at the second clip from this

16 exhibit, please.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can hear the celebratory fire.

19 MR. FLYNN: For the record --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the record, what the Bench

21 can see is that we can see the Old Bridge, and at some point in time we

22 see some water rising on the right-hand side without the bridge having

23 been hit by anything. And then a few minutes later on the picture we see

24 the Old Bridge collapsing, and at that moment we see some more water

25 rising, which stands perpendicularly to the first water surge.

Page 18694

1 So much for the record. We can look at this again, if you like.

2 Could we see the video clip again, please?

3 For the record, these are not conclusions. These are just

4 things -- observations. These are just observations.

5 [Videotape played]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. Everybody can see there's

7 some water rising here on the right-hand side, a waterline, so to speak.

8 Please continue. Whereas the Old Bridge is still standing.

9 [Videotape played]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the record, I would like to

11 add two things. The first water surge we can see. We can also see that

12 there's a lot of smoke rising from the bridge. It's not like these little

13 puffs of smoke we saw at 15.52 and 15.55. At this point in time there's a

14 lot of smoke. Just before the bridge collapses, we all of a sudden see

15 the images shifting. We have the feeling that the images don't follow one

16 another. Just before the bridge collapses, we have the feeling that the

17 images have been switched, whether it's been filmed in realtime or not.

18 So we wonder whether it has been filmed in a continued fashion or not.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: One -- could I add that one can observe that

20 while one sees what appears to be deep crevices on the eastern part of the

21 bridge, suddenly it is on the western side that the whole bridge

22 vertically seems to break off the wall to which it was attached, and when

23 it falls into the water, it looks as if there were some more explosions in

24 the water, actually, but maybe one could watch that again, because it's

25 quite -- quite surprising. Not easily to be explained.

Page 18695

1 [Videotape played]

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can you continue?

3 [Videotape played]

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Thank you. I think I misobserved

5 when I thought to see an explosion in the water after the bridge falls

6 down.

7 MR. FLYNN: Perhaps, Your Honours, the record could also reflect

8 that at the end on the scene after the bridge has fallen into the water,

9 it can be clearly -- shooting can be clearly be heard. That may be

10 consistent with what the witness described as "celebratory shooting."

11 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, in your testimony today, you spoke of hearing

12 the shelling or the firing starting early on the 8th of November, 1993,

13 some hours after you came back from work. You talked later of seeing --

14 what you call was a tank firing what we saw regularly from Stotina in the

15 direction of the bridge, and you said it was firing some time into the

16 late afternoon.

17 Can you tell us, is the Stari Most situate or adjacent to the old

18 town? Is it situate or adjacent to the old town, the Stari Most?

19 A. It's right in the old town.

20 Q. I'd like you to look at Exhibit 0993 [sic] which you have in the

21 book in front of you. If you turn to Exhibit 0993. And you'll find the

22 Bosnian version at the back. Do you have it? Yeah. And this is a signed

23 and stamped report issued by Miljenko Lasic, the HVO district commander on

24 the 8th of November, 1993, at 1900 hours, and sent to the Main Staff, and

25 in this report Commander Lasic reports at paragraph 2, point 1, the third

Page 18696

1 part, he says "from 8.10 in the morning, our tank was opening fire from

2 Stotina during the whole day, and it fired 50 projectiles on Stari Grad,"

3 which we know is the old town.

4 Is Commander Lasic's report consistent with what you saw and heard

5 on the 8th of November, 1993?

6 A. Well, it's correct that it fired. He says it fired too.

7 Q. And after the Old Bridge was destroyed, did the HVO issue

8 statements denying that they had deliberately destroyed the Old Bridge?

9 A. I don't know. All I know is that I happened to read in the papers

10 somewhere that Mr. Praljak was defending himself from -- saying that he

11 didn't destroy the bridge and that he was going to prove that he didn't.

12 Q. Well, that would bring me to another exhibit in the booklet that

13 you have in front of you. Could you turn to Exhibit P 06564. Again, this

14 is another communication -- do you have it?

15 A. Could you repeat the number, please?

16 Q. 6564. I think you have it there in front of you.

17 A. I've found it.

18 Q. This is another communication again written by Commander Lasic,

19 addressed to the government and to the minister for defence and the HVO

20 Main Staff, and it's dated the 10th of November, 1993. And in this, at

21 paragraph 5, and if you could look at paragraph 5 for me. Commander Lasic

22 says: "HVO units never targeted the Old Bridge and destroying it was not

23 the aim. Defending themselves against numerous attacks by the MOS from

24 the direction of the Old Bridge towards Podhum and the Franciscan church

25 where there were many breakthroughs of the defence lines. Units fired at

Page 18697

1 the enemy's manpower and materiel near the bridge. The old bridge was

2 destroyed as a consequence of combat operations, because that area has

3 been the scene of fierce clashes since the beginning of the conflict."

4 With you aware of any offensive launched by the ABiH on either the

5 8th or 9th of November, 1993?

6 A. I don't remember that at all, that that was --

7 Q. And when Commander Lasic says that they never targeted the Old

8 Bridge and destroying it was not the aim, would you agree with what he

9 says in this communication?

10 A. How can I agree? I can't agree that they didn't target the Old

11 Bridge when the Old Bridge was our lifeline, and they wanted to stifle our

12 lifeline, let alone destroy the bridge.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, you have to finish,

14 because you've already used your hour.

15 MR. FLYNN: I have just about three questions to go.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

17 Judge Prandler.

18 JUDGE PRANDLER: The proceedings, I would only like to make a

19 comment, Mr. Flynn, about this document which you have of just introduced.

20 That is the number --

21 MR. FLYNN: 656 --

22 JUDGE PRANDLER: 06564. It is a factual, I would say correction,

23 I would like to make in the letter itself and -- I mean, it is not a

24 letter, but a report. The report, paragraph four. The commander,

25 Miljenko Lasic, mentions UNICEF twice in that paragraph four. It was

Page 18698

1 probably, and I am sure that it should be read, of course, as UNESCO,

2 because it is UNESCO who is dealing with those heritage problems, and so

3 the reference should have been UNESCO and not UNICEF. It is just for a

4 factual understanding. Thank you.

5 MR. FLYNN: Yes. I think it was a direct translation from the

6 Bosnian version, Your Honours.

7 Q. Just to try and conclude, Mr. Delalic --

8 MR. FLYNN: With your leave, Your Honours.

9 Q. Did the shelling of the bridges across the Neretva by the HVO stop

10 on the 9th of November, 1993, after the Old Bridge was knocked down?

11 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. You mean the

12 shelling of the bridge or what?

13 Q. On -- on the 9th, Stari Most fell into the water. That left the

14 Kamenica bridge, and my understanding is there were some other bridges

15 farther up along the water. Did the shelling of the bridges across the

16 river by the HVO stop on the 9th after the Stari Most was destroyed?

17 A. No, it did not. I think that on the cassette you can see when the

18 Kamenica bridge was targeted too. There as something targeting Kamenica.

19 I think it's on this video. So as far as I was able to, I filmed that,

20 but we ought to see it on the other tape. I don't know whether you've

21 found it.

22 MR. FLYNN: We haven't presented this as part of the package

23 because the view is not good, Your Honour.

24 Q. But can you tell us the date on which this would have happened?

25 A. I think it was round about the 11th of November. The 9th is when

Page 18699

1 the bridge fell, and they continued, constantly hitting. Well, they had

2 it in their minds to destroy us and that's it, but we didn't let ourselves

3 be destroyed.

4 Q. And what was the direct result of the two bridges being destroyed?

5 A. Well, the result, the result was to cut off the approach to our

6 homes, and then we couldn't go anywhere else. What could we do? Jump

7 into the Neretva River? There was nothing else to do. They might have

8 taken control of the other side, the opposite bank, and that was it. And

9 that was their goal, to reach the Neretva.

10 Q. I have one last question for you. Could you turn to Exhibit

11 0099 -- sorry, Exhibit number 09992. Do you have that? Briefly, this is

12 again a signed and stamped report issued by Commander Lasic of the HVO on

13 the 9th of November, 1993, at 1900 hours, again to the Main Staff, and in

14 paragraph 2, the second part of paragraph 2, he says, "In addition to fire

15 from infantry weapons at around 1000 hours our tank fired a few

16 projectiles at a target which was determined earlier. At around 10.15

17 hours, our reconnaissance people from Hum reported that Stari Most, the

18 Old Bridge, was torn down, but they could not say anything about the cause

19 of its destruction."

20 Now, you spoke -- you said in your testimony that as far as you

21 were aware that the Stari Most was destroyed around 10.30 to 11.00. He

22 talks about sometime around 10.15 hours. Is this consistent with what you

23 understand, the time the bridge was destroyed?

24 A. Yes, of course. You can see for yourself. 10.15, while it

25 reached our ears, while we could hear what was happening, well, that would

Page 18700

1 make it the right time.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MR. FLYNN: I said that was my last question, and it will be.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 We're going to have a break, and then we can start with the

6 cross-examination for an hour and a half. We shall resume in 20 minutes'

7 time, at a quarter past 4.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who is going to start with the

11 cross-examination?

12 MR. FLYNN: Before they do, Your Honour, could I just mention one

13 thing? I just note from the transcript on page 31, at line 18 and 19,

14 that when quoting the reference for a P exhibit I said P 0993. That

15 should actually read P 09993.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So there was a 9

17 missing.

18 Judge Mindua.

19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'm now turning to the Defence

20 counsel. Sorry for taking the floor before they start. I wanted to wait

21 until the end, but it might be better to turn to the Prosecutor right now.

22 Mr. Prosecutor, of course I'm not a specialist in explosives, but

23 we know that there are a lot of theories going around, around the Old

24 Bridge, and by which weapons it was hit and also about the authors of the

25 fire. We know from experience that explosions may be different and

Page 18701

1 impacts may be different also depending on whether the projectile or the

2 shell is made up of TNT or compressed air. Equally, if you have a shell

3 within a building, it may cause the windowpanes to fall outside, and if

4 you have a shell bursting outside, it would make it so that the

5 windowpanes fallen side. So here is my question: Whilst we were viewing

6 this footage, the Judges had questions on these lines of water or waves

7 that rose from the river, and also on the pieces of the bridge that

8 collapsed and fall in entire blocks. So my question is as follows: Do

9 you have a specialist or an expert witness who could explain to us the

10 explosions, the impacts on the bridge? Maybe if we had one we would be

11 better able to know whether this was caused by tank fire, by what kind of

12 tank, by what type of calibre. I don't know whether there could have been

13 mines there.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I want to supplement this

15 question, which is a relevant one. Do you plan to call further witnesses

16 who would speak about the destruction of the bridge? For example, about

17 these aspects that have been raised by the Judge?

18 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honours. It's my understanding that

19 there is no intention to call any expert witness to deal with the actual

20 cause of destruction of the Old Bridge. The intention of the Prosecution

21 was to present the best evidence that it had available to it, namely the

22 evidence of the witnesses who were in Mostar on the 8th and 9th of

23 November, 1993, and who could give evidence, indirect evidence, that there

24 was fire directed at the bridge. Combined with that, we have presented

25 you evidence, video footage of the destruction of the bridge on the same

Page 18702

1 dates the witnesses say it was destroyed, and I'm sure when sit down and

2 look at it, you will see that the explosions that were seen on the bridge

3 coincide with firing of the object that Mr. Delalic saw.

4 So it was the Prosecution's intention to rely on Mr. Delalic's

5 evidence and the evidence of other Mostar witnesses who spoke generally

6 about the destruction of the bridge, together with the documentary

7 evidence that it proposes to tender in which it's clearly stated, and I

8 think the President mentioned this at the outset of the hearing, it's

9 clearly admitted by the HVO that their tank fired 50 projectiles from 8.10

10 on the morning of the 8th of November in the direction of Stari Grad, and

11 we know that Stari Most was part of Stari Grad. So all of this evidence

12 together, it would be the Prosecution's submission, that there could be no

13 other conclusion but that it was this tank which was used by the HVO

14 forces that brought the bridge down on this particular day.

15 So in short, we don't propose to call specialist evidence to say

16 that the -- that -- to describe the explosions on the bridge, et cetera,

17 et cetera.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. At least you have

19 provided a clear answer.

20 I'm now turning to the Defence. Who's going to start? Is it

21 Mr. Praljak who's going to do all of the of cross-examination? Otherwise,

22 you have 10 minutes each and 40 minutes for Mr. Praljak.

23 Mr. Kovacic?

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in keeping with the

25 recent ruling of yours, I don't want to take up any time. I think that

Page 18703

1 you have the arguments clearly before you. Mr. Praljak has special

2 knowledge about these events, and with your permission, I'd like to cede

3 my time entirely to Mr. Praljak for the cross-examination.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the entire Defence time is

5 given to Mr. Praljak.

6 Yes, Mr. Murphy?

7 MR. MURPHY: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honour. We do not have

8 any questions. We would be happy to give our time to General Praljak.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Karnavas is replaced

10 by Ms. Tomanovic.

11 MS. TOMANOVIC: The Defence of Mr. Prlic has no questions for this

12 witness. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Petkovic Defence

15 gives its time to Mr. Praljak.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No questions for the

17 witness so we [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Praljak. --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

19 continues] ... Mr. Ibrisimovic.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have the same view,

21 Mr. President. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you shall conduct

23 the cross-examination. You have all the parameters. You can start.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. If --

25 just by way of an introduction. Since I've dealt with this problem for

Page 18704

1 many years and it stems from a sentence stated by the witness that Praljak

2 is proving that he didn't destroy the Old Bridge, which testifies to

3 legislation and nowhere do you have to prove your innocence - it is the

4 other way round - so I'd like you to interrupt me if I ask a question

5 outside what is considered proper here.

6 Having said that:

7 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Would you give short answers to my questions, as clear as

11 possible. And if I ask you an additional question, then you can testify

12 or you can say, "I know," "I don't know," et cetera. I think we've

13 understood each other.

14 A. Yes, we have.

15 Q. Let's start off with the 9th of November, 1993. When in the

16 morning did you go to take up your duties at Santiceva Street?

17 A. I'm always on duty as a policeman, but on that occasion I left

18 sometime between 7.00 and 8.00, thereabouts.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. You're welcome.

21 Q. Since we're on this subject, in Santiceva Street you went to the

22 Partizan Cinema Hall; is that right? Some earlier witnesses have

23 testified --

24 A. I didn't understand you. What did you say?

25 Q. Well, other witnesses have talked about that, but you were at the

Page 18705

1 cinema, Partizan Cinema; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's where our police station was located.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: A technical intervention on my part.

4 Witness, this is all translated simultaneously, if possible, into

5 French and English. This means that you have to wait before answering

6 sometime after Mr. Praljak has stopped his question, otherwise, our poor

7 interpreters cannot follow.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Praljak.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm sorry.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Yes. Let's take it slowly. We have enough time.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge.

13 Q. The Partizan Cinema Hall is located on the left side of Santiceva

14 Street facing northwards. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And on the opposite side you had the Merkur building; is that

17 right? Well, it was called the Merkur before.

18 A. It's the Hit building.

19 Q. Yes, the Hit building. Now, was your police station on the

20 opposite side as well, or did you have something like that?

21 A. Not on the opposite side, no.

22 Q. You mean in the Hit building?

23 A. No, never in the Hit building.

24 Q. What was in the Hit building?

25 A. It was a department store at one time.

Page 18706

1 Q. No, we're not speaking about the same thing. You were in the

2 Partizan Cinema Hall. Now, opposite the cinema hall in Santiceva street,

3 what was -- what was there, there on the right-hand side of Santiceva

4 Street looking northwards? Or opposite the Partizan Hall?

5 A. There were residential buildings there.

6 Q. Very well. We won't pursue that line. Now, when you went to

7 work, were you wearing a uniform or not?

8 A. I was in uniform.

9 Q. Did you have a weapon on you or not?

10 A. Yes, I had a weapon all the time.

11 Q. Did you go to work by having to cross the Old Bridge or the Tito

12 Bridge or some other bridge?

13 A. It was the Tito Bridge.

14 Q. Right, the Tito Bridge. Now, the Old Bridge during the conflict

15 between the BH army and the HVO, was it used for -- did people cross over

16 wearing uniforms, and did they carry arms across? Is that what it served

17 for?

18 A. The Old Bridge we used for all sorts of purposes.

19 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, downstream from that bridge there was

20 the provisional bridge, the Kamenica bridge that was built provisionally

21 by the BH army; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what about that bridge, the Kamenica bridge? Was it used by

24 civilians, soldiers, and everybody else for crossing?

25 A. Well, exclusively civilians, but of course soldiers crossed there

Page 18707

1 too.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, do you remember, because a witness

3 told us that here, that there were festivities on the BH army side, they

4 were celebrating, when, with an anti-tank gun, destroyed a tank at Hum

5 hill with a red arrow, as it was called? Do you remember that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you remember another event where a Bofors type 40-millimetre

8 anti-aircraft gun was destroyed, and that was celebrated as a military

9 success? Do you remember that date and that event?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you remember that in September, around the 20th of September,

12 in fact, there was -- well, we can call it a BH army offensive towards Hum

13 hill via Stotina. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do remember that. That's right.

15 Q. And the Old Bridge wasn't shot at, at that time, nor was it

16 destroyed. Isn't that right?

17 A. You mean in September?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, on that date or before that or -- was the Kamenica bridge

21 targeted in order to be demolished and destroyed?

22 A. Well, it was targeted, but I can't remember -- it was shot at, but

23 I can't remember, actually, what happened.

24 Q. Let's go and look at some photographs. You were in Mostar. Did

25 you ever climb up to the top of Hum hill?

Page 18708

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. But judging by what you were able to see, could you draw the

3 conclusion that if you're up on Hum hill you can see the Old Bridge and

4 Kamenica bridge very well?

5 A. Yes, of course you can see that from Hum hill.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, from Stotina can you see Kamenica as if it was on

7 the palm of your hand?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Before this date, and I'm talking about the 8th of November, did

10 you ever see a tank go out to Stotina and shoot, and fire?

11 A. I don't remember that.

12 Q. All right. Now, you said that the HVO had a bunker of some sort

13 at Stotina.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Yes, I'm not denying that. Now, can you fit a 20-millimetre PAT

16 gun in a bunker, as far as you know?

17 A. Well, judging by the bunker I saw up at Stotina, I have the

18 feeling that you could get a whole truck in there. A heavy duty vehicle.

19 At least that would be my impression.

20 Q. Right. That's your impression. Fine. But until the 8th of

21 November you never saw a tank go to Stotina and fire at the other side?

22 A. Up until the day when I made this footage, you mean?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Well, they did come, but I just can't remember the date.

25 Q. You mean a tank came?

Page 18709

1 A. Everything came there, not only a tank. Everything did.

2 Q. Well, when the tank arrived earlier on, what did it fire at from

3 the position of Stotina?

4 A. As far as I can -- am concerned, firing was a regular occurrence

5 and --

6 Q. Don't explain anything to me, Witness, just tell me this: Can you

7 tell me a date before the 8th of November, 1993, that a tank arrived at

8 Stotina, and, if so, then tell me what that tank fired at on that date.

9 A. Well, I find it difficult to remember dates generally, but I

10 remember this particular date very well.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, please focus on my questions. Don't

12 tell me about what I didn't ask you.

13 I'd like us now to take a look at some photographs from 3D 00374.

14 Exhibit 3D 00374 is what I'd like us to look at now. So that we can

15 clarify the situation. It's in the booklet that we all have. On page 48

16 and 49 you will find four photographs there.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The English reference [Previous

18 translation continues] ... [In English] 00469.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It would be easier if the

20 witness had this. Mr. Kovacic, don't you have a copy for the witness?

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Certainly he does.

22 Q. Can you please go to page 48.

23 A. I have it.

24 Q. Can you please look at the first photograph on the left-hand side,

25 the one in the upper half the page.

Page 18710

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you see the Old Bridge, and can you agree with me that this

3 photograph was taken from Hum?

4 A. I don't know where it was taken from, but I see the photograph.

5 Q. All right. You do know that above Old Bridge is the hill of Hum.

6 You do know that, don't you?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Okay. Let's look at the lower photograph, also taken from Hum

9 hill but with a more general view. The area's under the control of the BH

10 army in Mostar are marked in red. They were marked off. Do you agree

11 that the area marked off in red with some green shadings was under the

12 control of the BH army? The Bulevar and then further down Santiceva

13 Street and back up again. Have a look, please.

14 A. If we leave aside the hill, you could say that that's it, what I

15 can see here.

16 Q. Thank you. Let us now go to page 49, please, the next page in the

17 file, and we see here the position of the tank. The position of the tank

18 at Stotina is marked right there. And again, a red line was used to mark

19 Donja Mahala and then down towards the Bulevar, and it was all shaded in

20 green.

21 My question: Is this confrontation line between the HVO and the

22 BH army a correct one? Does it reflect the situation accurately? You see

23 Mahala and Stotina and then the check-point, and then there's an arrow

24 leading towards the Old Bridge.

25 A. Yes, I see that, but just to name one example, right where it

Page 18711

1 crosses the Bulevar I don't quite agree.

2 Q. We haven't got that far yet to begin with, therefore --

3 A. All right. All right.

4 Q. You do agree that the area marked in green was under the control

5 of the BH army, and then the dark area of the hill was under the control

6 of the HVO, including Stotina; right?

7 A. Yes, I agree.

8 Q. It's not just for you, but the distance is marked here 1.414

9 metres. It was measured by a laser, and it's quite accurate.

10 Look at the lower photograph now. It has been zoomed in to some

11 extent, and again the positions of the BH army and the HVO are marked

12 here, as well as the distances between the first positions of the BH army

13 across the Neretva and the buildings at Stotina and the buildings at

14 Mahala, where you used to live; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you agree that these distances were measured accurately?

17 A. I don't have a very good head for distances.

18 Q. All right. That is now clarified. A short digression. You were

19 shown a photograph by the OTP a while ago and you told us that you lived

20 in that building, the first building facing Stotina; is that right?

21 A. Yes, on the front line.

22 Q. I'm saying that because there are some -- were some witnesses here

23 whose names we can't mention in a public special who said those buildings

24 were not there at the time, that nobody lived there, but you say that

25 people actually lived there at the time; right?

Page 18712

1 A. Yes, and I did myself.

2 Q. All right. What I want to know now is this: Is it true, and,

3 please, can we now move forward to page 8, and you will see a list of

4 bridges there, a list of bridges in the Neretva River valley between

5 Mostar and Capljina. My question is: What about May for the most part of

6 1992? What about the JNA and the army of Republika Srpska? Did they not

7 tear down all the bridges along the Neretva River during the clashes at

8 that time with the exception of the Old Bridge?

9 A. Who did?

10 Q. The JNA.

11 A. All the bridges?

12 Q. Back in 1992, May 1992, and June.

13 A. No, that's not correct.

14 Q. Which was the only bridge that remained standing after that?

15 A. After the Serbs, you mean?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. The bridge at Dreznica was there, and it remained intact.

18 Q. That's what it says. It wasn't destroyed.

19 A. All right. I wasn't looking.

20 Q. Can you read this, please, and tell me if the information on this

21 page is accurate?

22 A. During the Serbs?

23 Q. Yes. Tell me, were you in Mostar at the time?

24 A. All the time. From day one to the very last day.

25 Q. There was an HVO attack, and in part also an attack by the BH

Page 18713

1 forces when one crossed the Neretva in June 1992; right?

2 A. Which bridge?

3 Q. Across the Neretva. There was an offensive against the Serbs in

4 June 1992. You remember that, don't you?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. What about the bridges? Were the bridges demolished at the time?

7 A. The Luka bridge was intact, the Lucki Most. I do remember that

8 for a particular reason, the Lucki Most.

9 Q. When was it destroyed?

10 A. It was your forces that demolished it.

11 Q. The HVO demolished the Lucki Most?

12 A. The Lucki Most, yes. And all of the bridges, I think.

13 Q. All of the bridges were demolished by the HVO, is that what you're

14 saying?

15 A. That's what I think.

16 Q. Thinking is not enough. Please state it clearly. The HVO

17 demolished all the bridges along the Neretva River with the exception of

18 the Old Bridge. Is that correct?

19 A. I think that's correct.

20 Q. All right. I'll not press this. It is up to the Chamber to

21 determine everything else.

22 Sir, you're under oath. Normally an attorney should be telling it

23 you this, but I'm reminding you.

24 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

25 Q. All right. Let's move on. Are you familiar with the fact that in

Page 18714

1 June during the attack, on Mostar's -- Mostar's bank where the Serbs were,

2 someone laid siege to the Old Bridge one night in order to protect it?

3 A. Yes. The bridge was protected, but I don't know who it was that

4 protected it.

5 Q. You don't know. All right. Fair enough, let's move on. Do you

6 perhaps know this: Each military operation has a commander; hence, do you

7 know who the commander was of the operation to liberate the general Mostar

8 area?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. But it was a large-scale military operation, relatively speaking;

11 right?

12 A. Yes. There was an operation. I was involved myself, but I can't

13 remember any details.

14 Q. I can't go through all these documents, but tell me the following,

15 please: Was the bridge damaged by Serb shells prior to the 8th of

16 November, 1993?

17 A. Yes, at -- at Gazna [phoen] there was a small hole.

18 Q. Fair enough. Can you tell me if you remember when the armour, so

19 to speak, was removed from the Old Bridge and the tyres were put there for

20 protection? When was this done, and who was it done by?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Fair enough. Do you remember if a UNESCO flag was ever hoisted at

23 the bridge to mark the bridge as a protected monument, as world heritage,

24 clearly marking it as protected world heritage? Did you ever see a flag

25 like that?

Page 18715

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can we now have 3D 00923? I would like to show the witness that

3 document. This is the Official Gazette of the BH army, dated the 5th of

4 December, 1992. Paragraph 6. Paragraph 6. These are instructions on the

5 application of the rules of international law of war in the armed forces

6 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Do you know the HVO was a recognised army within the Republic of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes, it was recognised. That much is certain.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Go to paragraph 6, please, if you can.

11 Paragraph 6 says: "It is forbidden to attack anyplace that is an open

12 town, a city. In order for such a place to be protected fully, it must be

13 recognised by both warring parties and conditions must be negotiated to

14 keep a town an open town. Most frequently, the conditions are for this

15 place not to be protected and for armed forces to be kept outside."

16 My question is: What about Mostar, the centre of Mostar and the

17 entire town? Were the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Mostar?

18 A. Of course they were.

19 Q. What about the command of the 4th Corps of the 41st Motorised

20 Brigade? Of all the battalions, were all those commands not in the city

21 of Mostar itself, in certain buildings around town?

22 A. No, that's not true. That was in the barracks further up the main

23 road. You must know what I'm talking about. Konak, yes, that's right.

24 Thank you.

25 Q. Is Konak a town or not?

Page 18716

1 A. Yes, it is, but there was a military barracks there. That's where

2 the soldiers were.

3 Q. What about Marsal Tito Street? What about the SDK building? Was

4 there an HQ there?

5 A. Yes, I do know about that.

6 Q. Fair enough. So the next bullet says: "No military units should

7 cross this territory, and the territory should not be used to transport

8 military equipment."

9 Was Mostar used for this purpose by the BH army units?

10 A. You mean the streets of Mostar?

11 Q. What else?

12 A. Where else should they have gone?

13 Q. I'm not reading this any longer, but now let us move on to

14 paragraph 8. Paragraph 8 reads, line two of paragraph 8: "It is --

15 indiscriminate attacks on historical and cultural heritage are also

16 prohibited in time of armed conflict," and then there is a list of what

17 constitutes cultural heritage. And then the last paragraph says:

18 "Nevertheless, this rule does not apply to those cultural monuments, which

19 although marked as cultural heritage, are used for military objectives or

20 if there is military necessity or justification, or unless the commander,

21 having the rank of general, decides otherwise." That's what certain other

22 documents say.

23 You say you never saw a flag on the Old Bridge marking it as a

24 cultural heritage, a protected monument, and you confirm that it was being

25 used at the time for -- by soldiers to cross and to transport ammunition

Page 18717

1 to the other bank of the river; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right, but, General, let me tell you one thing. If

3 you yourself would have stuck to these laws at the time it would all have

4 been fine and nothing would have happened.

5 Q. That's all very nice but please just answer my questions. By the

6 8th of November, and you remember that the clashes in Mostar started on

7 the 9th of May, 1993. By the 8th of November had there been any firing at

8 the Old Bridge? Had the Old Bridge been targeted, or had any of the other

9 bridges utilised by civilians and soldiers been targeted by the 8th of

10 November?

11 A. Had the Old Bridge been targeted?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Of course it had been.

14 Q. By a gun? By a tank?

15 A. You used everything you had to target it.

16 Q. Sir, but the photographs pre-date that. These photographs were

17 taken by BBC journalists, among others, and I think they don't tally with

18 what you're telling it us, so I have to ask you to reconsider. What about

19 HVO artillery, including tanks? I'm not talking about small arms. Had

20 there been any firing by that date, and had any damage been done to the

21 Old Bridge by that date?

22 A. I don't know. There certainly was firing, and I don't know what

23 was being used to fire, but --

24 Q. Sir, no comments, please.

25 A. I don't know.

Page 18718

1 Q. But you are, after all, able to distinguish small arms. After

2 all, you said it yourself. There is a tank firing, the shells are quite

3 large and it's causing a lot of damage. My question is a simple one.

4 Prior to the 8th of November, did you ever see the HVO artillery? And you

5 know that the HVO had strong artillery, relatively speaking.

6 A. Yes, I do know that.

7 Q. Did you ever see them target the bridge by a 130-millimetre gun or

8 a 152-millimetre gun called Nora or anything like that? The Old Bridge or

9 Kamenica bridge or any of the provisional bridges that you had at the

10 time?

11 A. As far as I know, all sorts of weapons were being used to fire at

12 the bridges, but I'm certainly no expert myself.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you could please

14 give us a hand with this. The witness obviously either doesn't understand

15 the question or he refuses to understand the question. I think the

16 question was a very specific one. The question was: "Did you heavy

17 artillery being used?," and the weapons were specified to target the

18 bridge. And the witness is refusing to ask the question. Perhaps the

19 question could be rephrased by the Judges and then the witness will prove

20 more willing to answer the question.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak's question was a

22 very specific one. Prior to the 8th of November, was there any firing at

23 the Old Bridge from artillery pieces, cannons -- guns, sorry, tanks before

24 the 8th of November? We're not talking about rifle fire. This is a very

25 precise question, so answer by saying whether you do know or don't know.

Page 18719

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was a firing. Now, I

2 don't know what was fired from, whether they were shells. Well, there was

3 firing even before the 8th.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're not able to say

5 whether it was gunfire, artillery fire, mortar fire, tank fire? You are

6 not in a position to answer the question, is that so?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't really, because I really

8 don't know. I don't know what was fired from.

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Were you in the Yugoslav People's Army? Did you do your military

11 service?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what branch was that?

14 A. Anti-aircraft artillery.

15 Q. There we have it. So you must have learnt something about

16 artillery.

17 Now, did you ever hear that the howitzer shells, cannon shells,

18 have, as His Honour Judge Mindua said, well, they have a delayed firing,

19 which means that they hit a target and then explode afterwards? Did you

20 hear about that?

21 A. Not only hear. I saw it happening.

22 Q. All right. Now, since you know that, based on your military

23 knowledge learnt in the JNA -- or, rather, let me ask you this: The Old

24 Bridge, it has the top part, the lower part, and the sides, but is it --

25 is there a void inside? Is it hollow inside?

Page 18720

1 A. Well, when it was destroyed I assumed what kind of construction it

2 was. When I looked at the remain, the remnants.

3 Q. So it was hollow, was it?

4 A. Well, it was filled with something. I don't know, some mass of

5 something.

6 Q. But it wasn't stone. It was empty, hollow.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you were a soldier, and you served in the artillery, and you

9 were taught there that a feature of that kind, you would take a shell, a

10 152-Nora type cannon, and you would target the bridge. The shell would

11 penetrate the cover and it would explode. Is that what you were taught

12 during your military service in the JNA?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, based on your knowledge from the JNA, how many such shells

15 with a 152-millimetre cannon from Hum with you be able to destroy the

16 bridge in the middle based on your JNA military service training?

17 A. Well, quite a lot to be quite frank.

18 Q. What do you mean quite a lot? Quite a lot of shells. How many

19 152-millimetre Nora shells would be necessary to destroy that, to the best

20 of your knowledge?

21 A. Well, sir, you're asking me about all these millimetres and what

22 have you, but I'm not that much an expert. But from what I do know, I

23 think you'd need quite a lot.

24 Q. All right. But you can't tell us how much in actual fact?

25 A. No, but quite a lot, because it's not a sufficiently powerful

Page 18721

1 shell.

2 Q. 152-millimetres, sir, is a very --

3 A. Ah, I see. I apologise.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, once again I'm afraid you are asking

5 questions of a witness who is not up to the science to answer them. I

6 mean, in anti-aircraft units you shoot at the sky with relatively limited

7 calibres, and that doesn't give a competence to speak about artillery, and

8 there's no basis. We don't know that it there were any cannons of that

9 size on Hum. All this is a bit in a void. The foundation is not there,

10 and the witness is not -- obviously not -- not an expert.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he said --

12 Q. Well, in the Yugoslav People's Army, how long were you there for?

13 How long did you do your military service?

14 A. Well, the 15 months that you always did your military service.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Judge Trechsel, in those 15

16 months, that's not all he learnt. In 15 months spent there --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a driver, sir. I was a driver

18 in the army, a driver of an armoured vehicle, anti-artillery armoured

19 vehicle. That's what I was, an anti-aircraft gun driver, so don't ask me

20 that.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now, in the previous document, 3D -- well, the little booklet. On

23 page 21. On page 21, the brochure. I'll read it out. Let me get the

24 English page. 3D 16-022 is the English, and it's on page 21 for you, sir.

25 As a heading it says, "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

Page 18722

1 Ministry of the Interior," and it says, "The plan for providing security

2 for the Old Bridge area issued in Mostar on the 3rd of January, 1993," and

3 on the following page, if you take a look -- would you take a look at page

4 22. It's the next page for Your Honours. Paragraph 2, which says as

5 follows: "Bearing in mind the fact," and it is the Old Bridge that is

6 being referred to --

7 MR. FLYNN: I'm sorry, I'm wondering what he's -- it's now coming

8 up on the screen. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 Please continue.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You were also a member of the Ministry of the Interior, were you

13 not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So the document of this institution of which you were a member, in

16 paragraph 2, it says: "Bearing in mind the fact that the feature itself

17 was in a state of disrepair because it had suffered shelling, we consider

18 that even a small quantity of explosives would be sufficient to finish the

19 job," which means for the bridge to topple. And the date of that is the

20 3rd of January 1993. Now, have you ever had this document in your hands?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. Do you know who Ibru [phoen] Senad is?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. He's the signatory of the document. So turn to the next page and

25 take a look at that name down there. You say you know who the man is.

Page 18723

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Let us now take a look -- well, let's skip number 1 and take a

3 look at the second paragraph -- or, rather, the fourth paragraph from the

4 top. It says "The frequency during the day and sometimes in the night

5 hours is very great," and in brackets it's -- says, "The movement of

6 citizens and soldiers, construction materials being carried across the

7 facility, arms, ammunition, food, et cetera." Is that what it says in

8 this document?

9 A. Yes it does.

10 Q. Now, I don't want to go into any explanations, but it

11 recapitulates how the bridge is to be protected, that you mustn't park

12 cars on it, and so on. But you say you know the man?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I'd just like to go back to one more thing now, and it is this:

15 On the 8th of November, this tank is firing and you filmed this, and then

16 you saw the distance to the BH army lines. From the testimony of previous

17 witnesses, we saw the kind of artillery that the BH army had and I'm going

18 to ask you this now: Did the BH army have artillery weapons under its

19 control?

20 A. I don't know that. They had something but I don't really know.

21 Q. Did they have a 105-millimetre gun, a Maljutka-type gun?

22 A. I don't know that, but I do know they had it a ZIS.

23 Q. What about the device called a red arrow?

24 A. I don't know about that.

25 Q. Well, others have spoken about that. Now during that time on that

Page 18724

1 particular day, did you see that from the BH army positions there was

2 firing at the tank from any weapons, at the tank that was targeting the

3 Old Bridge, throughout the day?

4 A. I personally did not see that.

5 Q. You didn't see that. You were -- had a good vantage point. So

6 neither from Stotina or Donja Mahala or across the river or up by the main

7 road where you can see -- do you agree that you can see Stotina very well

8 from all those positions, the ones I've mentioned, the main road, Donja

9 Mahala, across the river?

10 A. From Hum hill, you mean?

11 Q. No, no, from the left bank of the Neretva. That is to say from

12 the main road running towards Marsal Tito Street and so on. Can you see

13 Stotina from there?

14 A. Yes, you can.

15 Q. And you can see it from Donja Mahala, the houses in Donja Mahala?

16 A. Yes, you can.

17 Q. Right. Now, did you see that, anybody shoot at the tank

18 throughout the day, that it was firing at the Old Bridge with an RPG, a

19 Zolja, a Maljutka, this red arrow, a ZIS device, all the weapons that I've

20 just mentioned, whether you know them or not, but did you see anybody use

21 any of these weapons or any weapons at all on the BH army side to target

22 the tank, to shoot at the tank?

23 A. You mean on the day that I did the filming?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. No.

Page 18725

1 Q. Thank you, sir. Now may we have the next document 3D 00924 on the

2 screen, please. It is a document which for the public was written by

3 Slobodan Jobrenovic [phoen]. It is the information department or, rather,

4 Mate Boban; right? Yes, Mate Boban. He was the head of the information

5 department for Mate Boban, and he says -- he calls this an appeal, an

6 announcement, an appeal for the salvation of the old Mostar bridge, and

7 the date is Mostar, the 8th of July, 1993. Now we're going to skip over

8 the introduction and focus on a portion which comes at the end, the last

9 paragraph.

10 "We consider that the directive for this criminal act and it was

11 explained comes from Sarajevo, from the top political military Muslim

12 leadership there, and up to now it has encouraged the Muslims of

13 Herzegovina in suicidal conflicts with the Croatian populous and the HVO

14 painting an image of the people as being a victim, and we consider that it

15 is difficult to imagine that this comes from somebody who is from these

16 areas who consider the Old Bridge to be a symbol of Mostar and the centre

17 of the HZ of Herceg-Bosna."

18 Next page please. "The commanders of the Muslim army have already

19 used the Old Bridge for the transportation of ammunition and military

20 materiel over the past few days, and this was quite obvious. And by this

21 they wanted to provoke the HVO into a military action which they would use

22 as a pretext to destroy the Old Bridge in the midst of renewed Muslim

23 efforts of an attack on Mostar." And then it says: "Prepare the terrain

24 to transfer the responsibilities of their own crimes to the Croatian

25 side." The explosives that they positioned under the foundations of the

Page 18726

1 Old Bridge and arcades of the Old Bridge, they don't mention. "This

2 explosive must be removed immediately in order to save the monument," and

3 that is what the letter addressed on behalf of the department for

4 education, health care, and culture of the HVO's stated, and Jozo Maric is

5 the signatory. Have you ever seen this appeal and announcement?

6 A. Never.

7 Q. Do you know, and quite obviously you do not know because you claim

8 that it was the Croats who destroyed the bridge, that on page 18 of this

9 same book, page 18 -- well, have you ever heard of the existence of a

10 journal called Vidoslav, which is the Official Gazette of the Zahumsko,

11 and -- it is an Orthodox paper, in fact. Have you ever heard of its

12 existence?

13 A. No never.

14 Q. In that text dated the 10 -- on page 49, it publishes the name of

15 the man, a man who is called Piljevic, who was sent to activate a device

16 under the Old Bridge. Now, do you know that this Piljevic was killed in

17 carrying out this assignment given to him under the Old Bridge?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. Let's -- let us repeat. According to you the bridge was targeted

20 all day, or the greater part of the day of the 8th of November. Do you

21 know that in Mostar at that time there were soldiers from SpaBat, the

22 Spanish soldiers of the Spanish Battalion?

23 A. I know that there were some soldiers there, but I don't know why

24 you're asking me this. Yes, I know that the Spanish soldiers were there.

25 They were UNPROFOR soldiers, I think, the Spanish soldiers, and they were

Page 18727

1 around the Razvitak building.

2 Q. Right. And do you know that there were European Union observers,

3 too?

4 A. Yes, there were observers.

5 Q. Do you know that there were United Nations military observers as

6 well had who lived on the east bank of Mostar?

7 A. Well, I never delved into things like that.

8 Q. Did you know that these people were in regular contact with the

9 headquarters of the 4th Corps of the 41st Mostar Brigade, that they had

10 regular contacts with them and so on and so forth?

11 A. I know that they had some sort of contact. Now, who with, I

12 really can't say.

13 Q. All right. Fine. Now, according to your knowledge, to what you

14 know, you or any BH army soldier or policeman or battalion commander who

15 had their lines up there or some more senior BH army commanders ever

16 called up straight away after the beginning of the shelling of the bridge

17 any of these organisations I've enumerated to tell them what was

18 happening?

19 A. I don't know anything about that.

20 Q. Right. We have seen very many reports from all these

21 organisations, and in none of them does it say that something like that

22 was happening. Now, do you know that with respect to the destruction of

23 the Old Bridge, an investigation was opened and conducted -- or let me ask

24 you this.

25 First of all, do you know that the HVO asked for protection of the

Page 18728

1 Old Bridge, that it -- that it asked UNESCO's protection for the Old

2 Bridge?

3 A. I don't know about that.

4 Q. Take a look at page 28 now, please, of this book. And you'll see

5 that an independent investigation into the destruction of the Old Bridge

6 was called for, and it was signed by Vladislav Pogarcic. It was a letter

7 to Boutros-Ghali, who was the UN Secretary-General at the time. And

8 towards the end he said on the 8th of July, Professor Jozo Maric, towards

9 the end there, the present minister for education, and he was the head of

10 the department for education, science, and culture of the Croatian

11 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, sent out an appeal to UNESCO requesting urgent

12 help to protect that monument because the Muslim forces on the east bank

13 of Mostar were using the bridge for military purposes and had set up

14 explosives under it. Unfortunately, our government, our authorities, did

15 not receive any reply from UNESCO. Furthermore, numerous appeals were

16 sent to UNPROFOR and the European Community observers, et cetera, et

17 cetera.

18 So you don't know about this, that request was asked from UNESCO

19 to help protect the bridge?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know that an investigation was opened, since it was a

22 cultural monument of the first order, whether anybody in the UN set up an

23 independent investigation to find out how the Old Bridge was destroyed and

24 who was responsible for the destruction of the Old Bridge? Do you know

25 that?

Page 18729

1 A. No, I don't. But --

2 Q. There's no "but" about it.

3 A. I heard that you made a statement somewhere that you were going to

4 prove something about that, and that's why I'm here. Now, as far as what

5 you're asking me, I really don't know. I didn't hear about that.

6 Q. Sir, it's a sad thing that I have to conduct my own investigation

7 to prove my innocence. It should be the other way around, shouldn't it?

8 A. You got what you deserved.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may ask your questions, but

10 as you can see that this is not the right witness for some of your

11 questions. So this is the problem. Your questions may be relevant, but

12 they have to be put to the relevant witness. He can't answer your

13 questions. But please continue.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'll be dropping some of my

15 questions but let me ask this:

16 Q. Do you know whether there was an official investigation into what

17 happened to the Old Bridge? I will skip some of the evidence, but I'll

18 ask you that. Are you aware of anything like that?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know if an investigation was initiated.

20 Probably to find out who destroyed the bridge.

21 Q. Please, sir, you are not here to accuse me.

22 A. No, I'm not, and that's into the what I'm doing. I'm not accusing

23 you.

24 Q. All right then in the last portion we saw a camera, the wide

25 angular camera on the 9th, the morning of the 9th, filming the destruction

Page 18730

1 of the Old Bridge. Do you know who took that footage?

2 A. I had heard who but I don't know whether that was accurate or what

3 exactly they were filming. I can only speak about my own footage.

4 Q. All right. What did you hear? Who took that footage?

5 A. They said that a man named Bimbo had taken that footage.

6 Q. Bimbo?

7 A. Yes, precise.

8 Q. Have you ever heard of a man nicknamed "Sote" or "Scot," as in

9 Scottish? You ever heard of a man like that?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What about Jim Wilson? Never heard?

12 A. Never.

13 Q. Please go to page 34. All right. Do you perhaps know that this

14 person, after taking this footage, was escorted by the security forces of

15 the 4th Corps and taken to Sarajevo in order to hand the tape over to

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina television? Once in Sarajevo, he got onto an

17 UNPROFOR plane and he was flown to England. Do you know anything about

18 that?

19 A. No, nothing.

20 Q. That's in Oslobodjenje newspaper, originally page 34 --

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just a small observation on the transcript. On

22 page -- on line 14, 15, page 65, you are written down for having said that

23 there had been taken pictures with a wide-angle camera. I wonder whether

24 you said that or whether it is a mistake in translation, because it was

25 certainly the contrary. It was a small-angle, long lens tele-objective

Page 18731

1 that was used, I think.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't say

3 that, but it was not a tele-objective. It's quite a broad view that's

4 what I wanted to say a wide angle. This is film terminology; it's a

5 technical term, if you like.

6 Q. So witness you don't know anything with that if you like all right

7 let's go to that video that we looked at, the one last one that was shown.

8 On the 9th, did you see a single shell hit the Old Bridge? Did you

9 personally while watching that video see a single shell hit the Old

10 Bridge? Just before it was destroyed before it caved in.

11 A. Before it caved in?

12 Q. Yes, indeed on the 9th. Did you see anything like that, sir,

13 while watching the footage? You did see briefly a tank shell hit the

14 bridge and then there's the explosion and things flying around and the

15 tyres, too, bits of tyres. Right? Did see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What about the portion that we saw here, did you see a single

18 missile hit the Old Bridge, impact against the Old Bridge?

19 A. I did see something impacting against the Old Bridge. How am I

20 supposed to know what it was?

21 Q. Right. We'll go back to that if there is time and I'll be showing

22 you that again.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] But now, can we please again

24 see some of the footage? Sorry? Yes, please, we can. The Judges will

25 now be reviewing that with greater detail.

Page 18732

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Please pay close attention, Mr. Delalic. You see this is the Old

4 Bridge. If we can just have this. It might be a bit boring for the

5 Chamber. There are certain interruptions. You see something flies into

6 the image. It's not certain that this is a tank shell or who's firing.

7 Do you agree that this is a hit from an artillery weapon?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Thank you. You see how the water surges when the shells fall down

10 into the water?

11 A. This is from Goranci. Goranci.

12 Q. From Goranci? All right. This is a tank shell, right? What you

13 said about Goranci --

14 A. This isn't. The one before was, from the other side, that flew

15 in from the other side. That could have been from Goranci.

16 Q. Could have been?

17 A. Yes, I do have footage of that myself.

18 Q. We'll show that on a map. You see what it looks like when a tank

19 is firing?

20 A. This is from the -- underneath. This is also from Stotina, or

21 whatever. I don't really know. I see the impact.

22 Q. But these are two different kinds of firing, right? Two different

23 kinds of fire?

24 A. Yes, indeed that's true.

25 Q. First of all, you were not an expert yourself. You were a

Page 18733

1 driver. And now you know what an anti-aircraft gun is and you know what a

2 tank is?

3 A. Yes, I can distinguish between different kinds of firing.

4 Q. You said you were a driver, didn't you? Can we please rewind to

5 the last portion because we skipped something else important.

6 A. I'm not stupid, am I, not to be able to tell what weapon is being

7 used for firing? As for the calibres --

8 Q. Sir, please. I asked you some questions. I wanted to clarify

9 some things. You said you worked as a driver. Now, suddenly out of the

10 blue, you're turning into an expert in distinguishing --

11 A. No, I'm not saying that I'm expert. But I am able to distinguish

12 some things. I'm not just saying this for no reason at all.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Praljak is putting

14 the question to you. Please remain calm and answer calmly, please. There

15 is no point in getting excited. We are discussing technical matters

16 here. To my mind you're not the most appropriate witness; all of these

17 questions can be addressed with more appropriate witnesses. So please

18 answer these questions calmly the questions put to you by Mr. Praljak.

19 Please proceed Mr. Praljak.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Let's continue watching the footage.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Let's just let it run on for awhile so we can see certain things.

25 Is this a tank shell to your modest knowledge?

Page 18734

1 A. How should I know.

2 Q. All right. We can stop this now. This is no reason to keep

3 showing this.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the record, we can see the

5 bridge collapsing and we can -- we notice that a few seconds later it's

6 like an explosion taking place underwater, which means that the water's

7 rising and rising very high in two different places. That's what we can

8 see. I don't know the reasons for this, but we can see that the two water

9 geysers rising, so I think to address these matters we need to have

10 experts.

11 You're wasting your time here. We are wasting our energy because

12 these are questions which should be discussed with experts and this person

13 wasn't even there on the 9th of November so he didn't see the bridge

14 collapsing.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, this video which we

16 are seeing, was this video shot by this Scotsman or was it the same video

17 that was shown to us by the Prosecution?

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, the

19 destruction of the bridge itself was filmed by two cameras. One was by

20 Palameta and the other was a former English soldier who was serving with

21 the BH army. They called him the Scot. His real name was Jim Wilson. I

22 have been looking into his biography for years, to the extent that I'm

23 able to. There is footage here that he put together for the benefit of

24 the BBC when he sold them this material, and it's different from the tape

25 he gave the OTP. The OTP tape was never shown on any of the TV stations

Page 18735

1 in the original version.

2 For the benefit of the transcript, I'll repeat what I have said a

3 number of times already. Regrettably, the OTP are bringing entirely

4 incompetent witnesses for all these weapons, military issues and

5 explosions. They are putting us in a -- in an impossible position because

6 we are just running from the truth all the time. I have used up an

7 enormous amount of time. I enlisted the assistance of three of the best

8 university professors in Zagreb. I worked for months on this --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are quite right. If the

10 Prosecution does not call an expert to testify, you have the feeling that

11 what you are demonstrating here is not taken into account. But if after

12 98 bis phase you will be entitled to call a witness, Mr. Scot or somebody

13 else, an expert witness or any important you feel you should call. So

14 that's how things stand.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] My experts have completed

16 their report already. One of these persons has already testified at The

17 Hague Tribunal about explosives, Professor Jankovic. I sent a request for

18 a paper to be written by a German university too. I will be ready myself

19 and I will provide the exact timeline, where I was, and when I left my

20 duty.

21 Thank you very much, Witness. I thank the Chamber for allowing me

22 this opportunity. I have no more questions for this witness.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, do you have any

24 redirect or not? If that is not the case we shall adjourn for today.

25 MR. FLYNN: I have just one question. The witness may be able to

Page 18736

1 address it.

2 Re-examination by Mr. Flynn:

3 Q. Mr. Delalic, General Praljak mentioned -- he asked you a question

4 relative to the report that you were going through with him, and I think

5 it was around page 21, and there was a theory that -- that the BiH had

6 placed explosives under the bridge. Have you ever heard anything about

7 this at any stage?

8 A. Never. It's the very first I hear of it.

9 Q. Given the regard that the Bosnian Muslims held the bridge in, the

10 fact that it was historical cultural landmark, is it likely -- and also

11 the fact that this was one of only two connections between the left bank

12 and the east bank, is it likely that the BiH would have placed explosives

13 under the bridge to destroy the bridge?

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Flynn, does that not call for speculation

15 really? I think it's not really a factual question to be put to the

16 witness.

17 MR. FLYNN: The fact is, he was a policeman. He was on the

18 ground. He was on patrol. He knew what was going on. But I'll withdraw

19 the question in the circumstances.

20 Thank you, I don't have any further comment.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, the question has

22 been withdrawn. It's better to sit down.

23 Witness, I'd like to thank you on behalf of the Judges of this

24 Bench to have come to testify, and I wish you a safe journey home. I

25 shall ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

Page 18737

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, the Prosecution

4 has no more witnesses for this week. We have our schedule for next week.

5 Is everything under control, and no problem on the horizon?

6 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. Everything is under control.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I'm very happy about that.

8 The Court stands adjourned for today. I'd like to thank all the people

9 present in the courtroom, and we shall reconvene on Monday at a quarter

10 past 2.00.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day

13 of May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.