Page 26157

 1                          Monday, 14 January 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the case,

 6    please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today we are Monday, the 14th of

10    January, 2008.  I'd like to greet the representatives of the Prosecution,

11    Defence counsel, and the accused.  Today we must resume and proceed with

12    our work.  I have an oral decision to hand down, and I would also like to

13    stipulate that as far as the upcoming witness is concerned the Prosecution

14    will have two hours, that is part of the 92 ter procedure; and the Defence

15    will have four hours.  Each accused will have 40 minutes, which means all

16    in all that would be four hours.  As far as this witness is concerned this

17    witness is to testify for a period of three days because this person has

18    recently undergone surgery, he will only be able to testify for three

19    hours each day, which means that we will have an hour and a half, then a

20    break, then an hour and a half again, and we will stop after that.  The

21    same will apply for tomorrow and the day after.

22            So that's how we're going to proceed.  Now, as far as the oral

23    decision is concerned, I shall read it out very slowly.  Oral decision

24    pertaining to the application of Rule 46(A)(i) of the Rules of Procedure

25    and Evidence re:  Mr. Karnavas.  At the hearing of 9th of January, 2008,

Page 26158

 1    Mr. Karnavas used an extremely offensive and intimidating tone vis-a-vis

 2    the witness.  This attitude required a number of interventions on the part

 3    of the Bench to remind Mr. Karnavas that he was to remain calm and in

 4    control.  Please refer to page 25964, 25965, and 25966.

 5            At the hearing of 10th of January, 2008, Mr. Karnavas, whilst

 6    saying that he was not asking to have one of the Judges of the Bench to be

 7    disqualified as is specified in Rule 15 of the Rules of Procedure and

 8    Evidence, complained about some of the questions that had been put by one

 9    of the Judges of the Bench which gave him the impression according to the

10    words he used, re:  Mr. Karnavas, that there is a fifth Prosecutor in the

11    courtroom.  Please refer to page 26045.

12            Afterwards Mr. Karnavas stated that he was mindful of the concerns

13    put to him by his client and was extremely concerned about the fair

14    balance and legitimate judgement which his client was to be a subject of.

15    So please refer to page 26046.

16            The Trial Chamber notes that the behaviour of Mr. Karnavas

17    vis-a-vis one of the witnesses as well as the words he used at the hearing

18    when he compared one of the Judges of the Bench to a fifth Prosecutor with

19    what such a comparison implies is unacceptable.  This behaviour is

20    offensive and obstructs the running of the proceedings pursuant to Rule 46

21    of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

22            An order was handed down pertaining to the strict observation of

23    order in the courtroom and confidentiality on the 17th of October, 2007.

24    Mr. Karnavas has already been asked to comply formally pursuant to Rule

25    46(A) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  The Bench intervened on

Page 26159

 1    several occasions and asked him to remain or to have a respectful attitude

 2    during the hearing.  Under such conditions the Trial Chamber feels that

 3    Rule 46(A)(i) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence should be applied.

 4            Consequently, the Trial Chamber has decided not to -- no longer

 5    hear Mr. Karnavas as of the 15th of January onwards and thus until the

 6    24th [as interpreted] of January, 2008, included.  It is only

 7    Mr. Karnavas's co-counsel, Mrs. Suzana Tomanovic, who will be able to take

 8    the floor at the hearing during this period of time.  Mr. Karnavas will be

 9    entitled to be present during the proceedings if he abides by this

10    decision and will therefore be able to follow the proceedings and

11    communicate with his co-counsel.  The Trial Chamber feels that the rights

12    of the Defence of the accused Prlic have not been jeopardized pursuant to

13    Rule 46(A)(i) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

14            Registrar, you have the floor.  Could you give us a few IC

15    numbers, please.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  Certainly, Your Honours.  The list of documents

17    tendered by Prlic Defence with Witness BF will become Exhibit IC 766.  A

18    list of documents tendered through Witness BF by Stojic Defence will

19    become exhibit IC 767.  List of Prosecution documents tendered through

20    Witness BF will become Exhibit IC 768 under seal.  The list of exhibits

21    proposed by Defence for Milivoj Petkovic will become Exhibit IC 769.

22    Slobodan Praljak's Defence list of exhibits tendered through Witness BF

23    will become IC 770.  Prosecution Exhibit list tendered for Witness EI will

24    become Exhibit IC 771 under seal.  And list of documents tendered by

25    Defence for Mr. Coric through Witness EI will become Exhibit IC 772, Your

Page 26160

 1    Honours.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'd just like to make a

 3    correction.  Regarding the decision that was handed down a while ago

 4    there's a mistake as far as the date is concerned.  On page 3, line 9, it

 5    is not the 24th of January that you should be reading but the 21st of

 6    January.

 7            Very well.

 8            MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, I want to --

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, just wait a

10    minute.  You will have the floor.  What would you like to say?

11            MR. KARNAVAS:  First, I thank you for the decision.  Second of all

12    with respect to Judge Trechsel, as I indicated, it was my client who had

13    that impression that it was Judge Trechsel that was asking questions every

14    time a point that was scored for the Defence Judge Trechsel would then ask

15    questions that it would appear were in favour for the Prosecution.  That

16    was the point.  I also made the observation that I noticed it, and that

17    has been a topic of discussions between myself and Dr. Prlic since the

18    commencement of this trial.

19            So I just want to make sure that the impression is correct, the

20    impression, that is, that I left, that it was both myself and Dr. Prlic

21    that felt that this was the case that on many occasions - and this is

22    having looked at the entire transcript from the beginning all the way to

23    this point where questions were being asked, but on that particular day we

24    were quite concerned because the question was directed whether Dr. Prlic

25    had actually or the HVO had invited the gentleman to come to Mostar when

Page 26161

 1    that wasn't the thrust of the question.  But I accept the Court's

 2    decision.  I acknowledge my own shortcomings, and I appreciate the Court's

 3    understanding.  Thank you.

 4            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I owe an

 5    answer to a Prosecution question with respect to the date when the

 6    programme was, or rather, when the video was filmed, broadcast, about the

 7    event in Guca Gora, and I said, I gave an answer previously, I answered

 8    questions where the video came from.  I said it was from Croatian public

 9    tuition, that it was broadcast, and that Croatian television received this

10    from an international exchange, that it was filmed by Terry Lloyd for the

11    British programme the News at 10, and the second part was Martin Brand for

12    Sky News, once again a British programme.  However, I omitted to give the

13    dates and that was part of the request made by the Prosecution.

14            So with your permission I now have a that information, I have

15    checked it out in your database and can tell you that the event itself in

16    Guca Gora that is discussed there was on the 4th of June, 1993, that's

17    when it took place, and that indubitably follows from document P 2849 and

18    document P 2669.  And there are other documents, too, which mention that

19    same date, so I think that that is quite clear and not contestable.

20            Now, as far as the filming is concerned, the British journalist or

21    crew or cameramen were in Guca Gora with BritBat, and we can see that from

22    the exhibit itself, they were there with UNPROFOR, that is, and according

23    to the UNPROFOR document number P 2688, that took place on the 8th of

24    June, 1993, so we must believe that that's when the material was filmed.

25    And that material later on most probably, although I can't give you an

Page 26162

 1    exact date, but most probably it was broadcast over British broadcasting

 2    on the 11th or 12th of June when it was taken over by the Croatian

 3    television through the international exchange, and that is the regular

 4    mechanism that this is done.  And it broadcast this same footage on

 5    Croatian television on the 11th or 12th of June.

 6            Now, if the Prosecutor wanted to ask about the authenticity of the

 7    material, I would like to remind you that at the beginning of the footage

 8    we can see the Croatian television journalist giving an introduction for

 9    the footage and it says that it was taken from the international exchange

10    there, and we can provide evidence and proof of that.  But if we begin

11    discussing the authenticity of material like that, then of course the

12    Defence would have a great deal of questions to raise with respect to

13    Prosecution material.  Thank you.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kovacic, for

15    having specified this.  You have said that this pertains to events that

16    occurred seemingly on the 4th of June, 1993.  Yes.  If I remember

17    correctly, there was also another video which was shown at some other

18    point which also shows Mujahedin inside the church of Guca Gora.  And that

19    video was probably shot after the 4th of June, 1993.  I don't have a

20    number to give you, but as I have a good memory it seems that there is a

21    video that was shot after that date which would enable you to confirm what

22    you have just said, that the event in question took place on the 4th of

23    June, 1993, because the video which shows the Mujahedin in the church of

24    Guca Gora was shot after the departure, which we can see in this video or

25    people departing.

Page 26163

 1            So we all have ample opportunity to check this.  Before bringing

 2    in the witness -- into the courtroom I believe that the Prosecution wanted

 3    to say something.

 4            MR. STRINGER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, and greetings to all.

 5    The Trial Chamber's already addressed the issue which I wanted to raise,

 6    which was the scheduling for this witness's testimony, and so I have

 7    nothing to say at this point.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So let's bring in

 9    the witness into the courtroom, please.

10            Before the witness enters the courtroom I would like to tell the

11    Prosecution that the statement which you are going to ask to tender into

12    evidence also discusses other issues like the shelling of Sarajevo.  So

13    focus your question only by bearing in mind the indictment, so don't ask

14    questions which are unrelated to the indictment, please.

15            Mr. Stringer.

16            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, the plan is to -- I believe that Your Honours

17    as well as the Defence should have in their binders numbered -- the

18    witness statement which has been numbered.  And we are actually only going

19    to tender very specific parts of the witness statement as I think the last

20    exhibit in the binder.  We're only going to tender those very specific

21    parts of the statement that relate to the items raised by the Trial

22    Chamber in its decision requesting that the witness come.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24                          [The witness entered court]

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

Page 26164

 1            So we are going to take the solemn declaration.  If you'd like to

 2    stand up, do, otherwise if you prefer you may remain seated.  If your

 3    health requires you to stay seated, please do.

 4            Very well, for the solemn declaration could you give us your first

 5    name, last name, and date of birth, please.

 6            THE WITNESS:  Yes, thank you, my first name is Cedric and my

 7    surname is Thornberry and -- I'm sorry, what was the other question?

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your date of birth, please.

 9            THE WITNESS:  My date of birth is the 22nd of June, 1936.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 36 or 26?

11            THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It must be a mistake then.  In

13    the statement we have it says 1926.  What is your current occupation?

14            THE WITNESS:  I am a consultant I think is the best way to

15    describe it.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Monsieur, have you already

17    testified before this Tribunal on the events that have unfolded in the

18    former Yugoslavia or is this the first time?

19            THE WITNESS:  Sir, this is the first time that I have testified in

20    this court.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could you take the

22    solemn declaration, please..

23            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

24    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  You may sit

Page 26165

 1    down.

 2            So just some very brief information I'd like to convey to you.  As

 3    you know, you are, first of all, going to be answering questions which

 4    will be put to you by the Prosecution whom I'm sure you met over the

 5    weekend or this morning based on written statements which you have made a

 6    few years back.  The Prosecutor will also show you a series of documents,

 7    after which Defence counsel, who are sitting on your left-hand side, will

 8    put questions to you as part of their cross-examination.

 9            The four Judges sitting before you can also at any time put

10    questions to you.  Technically speaking, it is better the Bench put their

11    question after both parties have put their questions, but sometimes in

12    face of -- on the face of a document or in light of a document it is

13    better to deal with the issue straight away.

14            We have been told that your health will not enable you to sit at

15    this hearing for four and a half or five hours, so what we have decided to

16    do, to make sure that you do not get too tired, is to have an hour and a

17    half session, then we will have a 20-minute break, and then another

18    session of an hour and a half, and then we will stop; and we will do the

19    same today, tomorrow, and the day after.  This is what we have planned to

20    do, but if at any point in time you feel tired or if you wish to have a

21    longer break please do not hesitate to let us know and to say to us that

22    you would like to have a rest.  So this depends on you.

23            If you feel that you want to stop and have a break because you

24    feel tired, do not hesitate to let the Bench know.  Be as accurate as you

25    possibly can when you answer the questions that are being put to you.  If

Page 26166

 1    you don't understand the meaning of a question, do not hesitate to turn to

 2    the person who has put the question to rephrase it.  The Bench is also

 3    there to answer any question you may have.

 4            This is what I had to say by way of introduction, and I shall now

 5    give the floor to Mr. Stringer, who will lead his evidence.

 6            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May I just add for the

 7    record that the full 92 bis package for this witness is not in the binder

 8    and the matter of the mistake on the birth date is dealt with in the

 9    original 92 bis package which was originally submitted.

10                          WITNESS:  CEDRIC THORNBERRY

11                          Examination by Mr. Stringer:

12       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, good afternoon.

13       A.   Good afternoon.

14       Q.   And you have -- I see I think you brought a binder with you in the

15    courtroom today which was one that you were looking at this weekend; is

16    that correct?

17       A.   That is correct, sir.

18       Q.   Okay.  And with your permission, I'm going to ask if the usher

19    could actually take that one from you and give you the one that we want to

20    use in the courtroom that's going to have the -- not have the stickers on

21    it and the things that you may have placed on it.  And, Witness, if I

22    could ask you just to set that aside for a quick moment and I'm going to

23    ask you questions about a number of the documents that are in that.

24            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, before I begin asking the witness

25    questions, I will provide this reference to the Rule 65 ter summary that

Page 26167

 1    we have for Mr. Thornberry.

 2            Witness Cedric Thornberry served as the director of civil affairs

 3    and later concurrently as the deputy chief of mission for the United

 4    Nations protective force, UNPROFOR, and the head of civil affairs as part

 5    of the United Nations mission in the former Yugoslavia.  In the witness's

 6    perception the Serbs, and following closely in their shadow the Croats,

 7    were attempting to carve themselves out a large chunk of

 8    Bosnia-Herzegovina through ethnic cleansing.  The idea that the Bosnian

 9    Croats were trying to carve out a piece of Bosnia for themselves was

10    considered just a fact of life; it was not a notion anyone refuted.

11    Around mid-August 1993 the witness travelled to Mostar and visited a

12    hospital in West Mostar and met with HVO officials there.  The witness

13    indicates in his statement that during a meeting at that time it was

14    implied that he would be killed if he attempted to visit East Mostar.

15            On the 21st of August, 1993, the witness did enter East Mostar and

16    spoke about the worst thing he had seen in the former Yugoslavia, with the

17    exception of Vukovar, in terms of physical destruction.  The witness will

18    modify that statement and clarify it during the course of his testimony.

19            On that day he visited the war hospital of East Mostar where the

20    patients were kept in the basement.

21            He saw wounded persons and amputees including children, people

22    were sometimes three to a bed.  A film crew was with him and television

23    coverage of this was shown around the world.  The publicity was intense

24    and as a result the Croatian foreign minister, Mate Granic, met with the

25    witness and subsequently said that he and Franjo Tudjman would put

Page 26168

 1    pressure on Mate Boban to allow humanitarian aid into Mostar.

 2            On the 25th of August, 1993, the witness was part of a

 3    humanitarian convoy that was bringing aid into Mostar.  On the way to

 4    Mostar from Medjugorje demonstrating villagers blocked the convoy.  A

 5    Bosnian Croat commander had to stand on the APC and tell them all to get

 6    out of the way.  The witness will also modify and clarify that part of his

 7    witness statement as well.

 8            The convoy entered East Mostar and unloaded humanitarian aid.

 9    When the convoy was to leave, residents blocked the convoy.  The people

10    were scared that if the convoy left the HVO would continue to bombard the

11    area.  The convoy stayed in East Mostar until the 28th of August, 1993.

12    The people in East Mostar were living in very difficult conditions and it

13    was the witness's impression that civilians were just as much a target of

14    attack as the military.  According to the witness, snipers had gone out of

15    their way to attack those through whom they could extract the most morale.

16    Bosnian Croats desperately wanted Mostar as their capital as they saw it

17    as the heart of their state.  On major issues such as Mostar, the witness

18    believes it was the Croatian leadership and not the Bosnian Croats who

19    were calling the shots.

20       Q.   Now, with that, Witness, let me ask you to take the binder that's

21    in front of you and turn to the last document at the end of it which has

22    been marked with a tab, Exhibit P 10041, P 10041, it's the very last

23    document in the binder, I believe.

24       A.   Excuse me, did you say 10041?

25       Q.   Yes, sir.  If you could just turn that page that's in your hand,

Page 26169

 1    that's the exhibit in front of you.

 2       A.   Thank you.  Yes, I have done that.

 3       Q.   And with that in front of you, let me just ask you a series of

 4    questions about that document.  Looking at the first page do you see your

 5    signature?

 6       A.   I do.

 7       Q.   And is this the witness statement that you provided to a

 8    representative of the Office of the Prosecutor in May of 1999?

 9       A.   Yes, but we covered some of this ground in 1999 and updated it

10    more recently.

11       Q.   Okay.  And then if I could ask you to just turn through the

12    statement.  Your initials appear on the bottom of each of the pages and

13    then does your signature appear again at the very end of the document?

14    You don't have to look at each page.  If you could just perhaps in general

15    indicate whether your initials appear on it and then your signature's at

16    the end?

17       A.   Yes, I confirm those elements.

18       Q.   Now, as you've indicated, the statement covers a great many

19    topics, and my question is whether at the time you provided this

20    statement, you answered the questions of the investigator truthfully?

21       A.   I believe I certainly did answer them truthfully.

22       Q.   Did you answer the questions freely?  Was there any coercion

23    involved or were you providing the statement voluntarily?

24       A.   I do not remember whether there was any coercion, but I don't

25    believe there was.  I was used to sometimes quite difficult circumstances

Page 26170

 1    when working for the UN.

 2       Q.   Okay.  And then after your arrival here in The Hague just within

 3    the last few days, did you have an opportunity to review this statement,

 4    and in particular the specific portions of the statement that you and I

 5    discussed over the course of the weekend?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.

 7       Q.   And were you given an opportunity then to make any corrections or

 8    modifications to those parts of the witness statement that we discussed?

 9       A.   I'm not quite sure that I remember what the timing was, but I

10    think that we changed the date of my birth.

11       Q.   Okay.  And then over the weekend --

12            MR. STRINGER:  Actually, Mr. President, I'll propose perhaps as we

13    go into the statement I could take the witness to the specific parts that

14    he had comments on because it's a rather large statement.

15       Q.   In general, Witness, the parts of the statement that you and I

16    discussed - and if you recall, I can direct you to them - and for

17    everyone's information paragraphs 1 and 5 which relate to your personal

18    history, that's on page 2, that section there.  And then turning to page

19    11, page 11, paragraph 42 is a one-paragraph section under the heading of

20    "the warring factions' intentions towards Bosnia."

21            Do you see that?

22       A.   Not yet, sir -- yes, I find it.

23       Q.   Okay.  And then just continuing on, skipping until page 14, under

24    the heading: "Conflict between the Bosnian Muslims and the Croats" --

25       A.   Yes.

Page 26171

 1       Q.   -- which has paragraph number 54 written next to it.  Do you see

 2    that?  It's handwritten.

 3       A.   I see -- which paragraph did you ask, please?

 4       Q.   54.

 5       A.   And this is on --

 6       Q.   This is under the heading:  "Conflict between the" --

 7       A.   Yes. All right.  Yes.

 8       Q.   Okay.  All right.  And then just continuing from that point across

 9    to page 15, 16, 17 in which you're talking about your time in Mostar

10    during August of 1993, and then to page 18, which continues down until the

11    next section on Srebrenica, do you see paragraph 72 there?

12       A.   I do.

13       Q.   Okay.  Those sections there that we've -- I've just taken you to,

14    subject to the modifications that we will discuss, if I were to ask you

15    questions and if you were to give this statement again would your answers

16    be the same?  Would your information be the same as that contained in

17    these parts of this witness statement?

18       A.   I'm certainly not -- I certainly have nothing to say which would

19    directly controvert what is here, but there may be changes in shading I

20    think is the best way for me to put it.

21       Q.   Okay.  And we'll be talking about these -- a number of parts about

22    this.  And so if you see something that you'd like to address in terms of

23    shading, you inform me --

24       A.   Indeed.

25       Q.   -- and you'll be free to do that.

Page 26172

 1            Witness, I'm going to just briefly direct you to paragraph 2 of

 2    the -- of this statement which relates to your background and your

 3    experience, both before you joined the UN and during your time with the

 4    United Nations --

 5            MR. STRINGER:  I see one of the accused is on his feet,

 6    Mr. President.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I hadn't seen Mr. Praljak.

 8            Mr. Praljak.

 9            THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have

10    the paragraphs in our translation which will make it difficult to

11    introduce the mistakes, or rather, corrections.  So could the Prosecutor

12    tell us what the contents are because our copy isn't numbered, the

13    paragraphs aren't numbered, and it will be difficult to compare the two.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, in fact, in the B/C/S

15    translation I see pages but I don't see paragraph numbers.

16            MR. STRINGER:  Well, as we always have to do with these witness

17    statements, Mr. President, we have to write in the paragraph numbers by

18    hand, which we've done on the English.  It was my assumption that counsel

19    could have done that for the B/C/S versions, but it's my -- it's my

20    intention to take the witness to the specific parts of the witness

21    statement.  So I don't think there will be any trouble for the accused to

22    follow along.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Since there must be

24    a corresponding page you can see paragraph 42 and page 11, and this

25    corresponds, for instance, to the fourth and fifth paragraph on page X in

Page 26173

 1    B/C/S.  Maybe you can proceed this way so that Mr. Praljak can follow.

 2            MR. KARNAVAS:  The other alternative, Mr. President, would be to

 3    take a break so that counsel could number it since the Prosecution did not

 4    number.  This is not something that we should be doing, it is their

 5    evidence.  I think the only I think that's fair to Mr. Praljak and to the

 6    others is to take a break so we can just go ahead and number it.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, what do you think

 8    of this suggestion?

 9            MR. STRINGER:  I think I can continue, Your Honour, and we'll just

10    do our best to refer the accused to the B/C/S version.  There really isn't

11    that much.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed then.

13            MR. STRINGER:

14       Q.   Before we actually turn to some of the parts for modification, I

15    wanted to just briefly highlight your experience within the United Nations

16    system which is indicated on page 2 of your statement, page 2.  And

17    particularly in paragraph 4 on page 2 of the English version there is a

18    reference that from March of 1992 until March of 1994 you were the

19    director of civil affairs for the UNPROFOR.  And from August of 1992 you

20    also served as the deputy chief of mission for UNPROFOR.  Do you see that?

21       A.   I do.  There are -- is a slight complication.

22       Q.   Why don't you go ahead and address that at this time then.

23       A.   It has to do with the United Nations names for various functions.

24    I was, in fact, a director of administration and management for the whole

25    of the United Nations worldwide for a fairly short period of time, and

Page 26174

 1    then I would have reverted to my internal statement, I think is the best

 2    way to try to describe it.  So there were two series of administrations -

 3    I'm sorry about this - but there were two series of jobs -- job contents;

 4    and from time to time I had fulfilled one and at another time I filled

 5    another.  I doubt whether this is, if I may say so, if this is material,

 6    but I thought again I had to try and maintain the absolute accuracy of

 7    that remark.

 8       Q.   Very well.  Before we get deeper into your statement, I just

 9    wanted to ask you briefly whether in your capacity on behalf of UNPROFOR

10    and civil affairs, whether it was customary for you to receive reports

11    from your subordinates who were working for you in various other

12    locations?

13       A.   Yes, I received numerous reports more or less daily.

14       Q.   All right.  If I could ask you to turn to a different document

15    that's in the binder, which is Exhibit P 01353.

16            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, just to be clear, this is more of

17    the 92 ter phase of it now because I'm going just a little bit beyond the

18    scope of Mostar, but it's going to be a very brief reference.

19       Q.   Witness, it's one of the first documents in the binder.  The usher

20    might need to help you locate it, P 01353.

21                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

22            MR. STRINGER:

23       Q.   Witness, do you recognise that document, any of the names on it?

24       A.   I think all the names are within my knowledge.  If you asked me

25    whether I remembered everything that is in that cable, then I would have

Page 26175

 1    to say:  No, I cannot do so.

 2       Q.   Is this a report that you received from a Victor Andreev?

 3       A.   It appears to be.

 4       Q.   And then, regarding the info, there is the name "Santana." Is that

 5    another name that you recognise?

 6       A.   That is the name of Aracelly Santana, a United Nations staff

 7    member, who was fulfilling the task on assignment as political affairs

 8    officer in Belgrade.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Now it appears that this document is from January 1993.  Is

10    this the type of report generally that you received from people like

11    Mr. Andreev during the time of your tenure with the UNPROFOR?

12       A.   I'm sure it wouldn't surprise anyone if I said that there were

13    many different ways in which my colleagues would have reported to me, and

14    certainly Andreev was one of the most assiduous and detailed in his

15    analyses and sending them to us.

16       Q.   In this document there's a reference to the map.  It says that --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   -- referring to the HVO, and I'm in paragraph 1 on the first page.

19       A.   I've got it.

20       Q.   "They are always quick to assert and announce territories of the

21    'map' which are under their control."

22            Do you know which map that's a reference to or what this is about?

23       A.   First, no, I don't know what it's a reference to; but second, I

24    have an awareness -- I had an awareness at that stage of -- I'm sorry, I'm

25    just looking again at this document.  I think the content of the statement

Page 26176

 1    is fairly accurately set out in the paragraph below that which states one

 2    political -- and Andreev was one of our best, most experienced reporters,

 3    rapporteur I mean.

 4       Q.   Very well.  If I could ask you to set aside that document, and I'm

 5    going to refer you to now the time that you talk about your trip to Mostar

 6    which occurred in August of 1993.  And again going back to -- in fact I

 7    don't know if the usher might be able to help you.

 8            MR. STRINGER:  It might be faster if we could remove the witness's

 9    statement from the binder because I'm going to be asking him to move back

10    and forth between the statement itself and then specific documents which

11    are in it, it's the very last document, 10140.

12       Q.   Okay, now, Mr. Thornberry, if I could ask you to turn to what

13    we've marked as paragraph 56 which is found on page 15 of the statement.

14    The statement is the other document outside the binder.

15       A.   I'm sorry, I didn't follow what you were saying about that.

16       Q.   Okay.  All right.

17            MR. STRINGER:  You know, I'm going to ask, Mr. President, the

18    usher could stay with the witness.  I think it would move things along to

19    assist the witness in navigating the various documents.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, please stay next to the

21    witness.

22            MR. STRINGER:

23       Q.   So this is paragraph [sic] 15 of the statement.

24       A.   I have paragraph 56 in front of me now.

25       Q.   I'm told that this is page 11 of the B/C/S version.  Now,

Page 26177

 1    Mr. Thornberry, paragraph 56 is sort of the beginning of your trip to

 2    Mostar.  In August of 1993 you indicate that you were in Split and then

 3    came to Medjugorje and then began your meetings there and other activities

 4    that you're going to be talking about.  In the binder I want to ask you to

 5    go to Exhibit P 03858.  And I'm going to ask you --

 6            MR. STRINGER:  And I'm going to ask you for and for counsel I'm

 7    going to direct the witness to the press release for the 19th of August,

 8    1993, which is with the ERN number ending with 9705.

 9       Q.   That should be the very first document in front of you there.

10    Okay.  Mr. Thornberry, just starting at the bottom of that, do you

11    recognise the name there, Shannon Boyd, who that was?

12       A.   Yes, I do.

13       Q.   Who was that?

14       A.   She was the acting spokesperson for the UN, for UNPROFOR, at that

15    time.

16       Q.   And does this appear -- was it part of her job to accompany you

17    and to issue press releases about the events that were taking place?

18       A.   It was often part of her job to do that, but it was relatively

19    unusual for a spokesperson to go to the field rather than staying back at

20    home base and developing their awareness, et cetera.

21       Q.   All right.  Now, in the third paragraph of this document there is

22    a reference to meetings which occurred on this day.  Your name is

23    mentioned, Mr. Andreev is mentioned, members of the Spanish Battalion as

24    well.  And then on the HVO side a Mr. Zubak, Mr. Stojic, and a General

25    Tole.  And it's indicated here that on this day also you and others went

Page 26178

 1    to visit the hospital which was on the west side of Mostar.  Do you see

 2    that?

 3       A.   Yes, I see that in paragraph 3.

 4       Q.   Now, with the assistance of the technical booth I'm going to ask

 5    that -- actually, maybe then I do this by myself.  I'm going to play a

 6    very short video clip and ask if you can comment on that for us.

 7                          [Videotape played]

 8            "MR. THORNBERRY:   Well, I think it's more than a gesture.  I

 9    think the most important thing that UNPROFOR could do in this area is to

10    do everything possible to have Mostar opened up to humanitarian aid.  This

11    city has been undergoing siege and conflict for a very long time.  The

12    amount of suffering which is immense here is absolutely unacceptable, and

13    the international community must have an opportunity of bringing in

14    humanitarian aid and helping with its good offices to resolve this local

15    conflict."

16            MR. STRINGER:  Okay.  Thank you.

17       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, you're shown there in the clip.  I wonder if you

18    could tell the Trial Chamber about this trip to the hospital in West

19    Mostar, how it came about, if you recall at this point.

20       A.   First of all, I still -- I still agree with what I was saying

21    there ten years ago.  Secondly, as shown in the binder, we were met -- we

22    were caught cold someone said by the information we were given when we

23    came to Medjugorje from Split.  We didn't expect anything like that to

24    happen.  I had no indication that it would happen.  However, we sat down

25    and with a number of colleagues from the political side of the UN, and we

Page 26179

 1    went into this and discussed it at length, took information from other

 2    people, and began to prepare for a possible and previously unthought-of

 3    mission to Mostar itself, West Mostar itself.

 4       Q.   Let me --

 5       A.   I hope that -- I hope I made that clear.  I will try otherwise.

 6       Q.   I'll ask you a couple of follow-up questions on that.  Who was

 7    representing the UNPROFOR civil affairs in the Mostar region at that time?

 8       A.   We had two colleagues who were there at that time, Mr. Albert,

 9    I've forgotten his second name for the moment.

10       Q.   Okay.  We'll come back to it.

11       A.   And another guy called Ed Joseph.  These were two principal actors

12    on the ground.  Both of them were assigned to the Medjugorje office.

13       Q.   All right.  Now, as indicated in the press release there that we

14    looked at, there are indications there that you had meetings with various

15    HVO officials on the 19th of April.  Do you recall that meeting at this

16    point, what was said or ...?

17       A.   I must say quite frankly that after ten years or 11 years, it's

18    very difficult for me to recall individuals and to -- yeah, to recall

19    individuals.

20       Q.   Okay.  I should correct the record, Mr. President, I asked about

21    the 9th of April, apparently, and I intended to ask about the 9th of

22    August --

23       A.   19th of August.

24       Q.   19th of August.  Thank you.

25            Witness, then is it fair to say that in general terms you don't

Page 26180

 1    have a specific recollection of meetings that took place during this

 2    period of time in August 1993?

 3       A.   That's broadly true, but I do have memories of discussions between

 4    ourselves and the other side, and we also discussed in detail shortly

 5    after Mr. Granic began to appear on the scene.

 6       Q.   Okay.  I'll ask you about Mr. Granic a little bit later.  We're

 7    still looking at paragraph 56 of your witness statement, and in that

 8    paragraph you state that:  "Although the HVO officials we met with did not

 9    say this directly, the gist of their response was that they would kill us

10    if we attempted to enter east Mostar."

11            So I should ask you, Mr. Thornberry, then what you can say about

12    that statement at this point, given that, as you've indicated, you don't

13    recall specific meetings with specific individuals.

14       A.   Well, in my time peacekeeping for the United Nations in which I

15    perhaps appeared in 15-odd different locations, I was threatened with

16    death with some regularity.  It usually meant that the other side was

17    beginning to, as it were, scrape the barrel for their -- a part of it was

18    part of an argument.  It may have been true, I didn't take it seriously, I

19    have to be quite blunt about it.  I thought it was part of a point in a --

20    a part of a point in a negotiation.

21            I hope that doesn't sound too flippant, but as I say people quite

22    often when they were driven into a corner did react in a way which was

23    maybe exaggerated and which we wouldn't necessarily have paid much

24    attention to.

25       Q.   Did -- was the HVO during this very initial part of your trip to

Page 26181

 1    Mostar, do you recall whether the HVO in general was supportive or not

 2    supportive of efforts to get humanitarian aid into East Mostar?

 3       A.   Well, the thing is, you see, sir, that the HVO together with

 4    everybody else who was in Medjugorje at that time, was a part of the

 5    negotiation, a continuing negotiation.  And as I said before, I think that

 6    that is the basis on which we received their evidence, their statements.

 7    They were not to be disregarded, but they were also not necessarily to be

 8    given higher worth than they might have been.

 9       Q.   If I could ask you to turn the page of the exhibit that's in front

10    of you, the press release of -- because we put them in specific order in

11    that binder for you.  I'm going to ask that you refer now to the press

12    release for the 20th of August, 1993, and this is with the ERN number

13    ending in 9704 for counsel.

14            Now, Mr. Thornberry, this press release makes reference to another

15    meeting held in Medjugorje at the Spanish Battalion on the 20th of August,

16    1993, meetings with yourself; the SpaBat commander, General Morales;

17    General Milivoj Petkovic, HVO commander; Mr. Bruno Stojic, president of

18    the HVO defence department.  And on this point I want to now show you

19    another video clip which is a brief one which is called Thornberry clip.

20                     [Videotape played]

21            MR. STRINGER:

22       Q.   Okay.  Now, apart from yourself, Mr. Thornberry, was there anyone

23    else in the video that you're able to recall or identify at this point?

24       A.   I can recall a number of them, but I cannot identify them.

25       Q.   All right.  I think I heard you mention the name Shannon Boyd

Page 26182

 1    there at the earlier part of it?

 2       A.   Shannon was the press and information acting chief, an American

 3    woman who was normally working for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees,

 4    but who was in effect in secondment to UNPROFOR.

 5       Q.   All right.  Does this appear to be video footage of the meetings

 6    that were held on this day, the 20th of August?

 7       A.   Certainly so, yes.

 8       Q.   If I could ask you then to turn again in the binder to the next

 9    document, which is marked as 9495.  Now, Mr. Thornberry, we -- you spoke a

10    little bit already about some of the reports coming to you, so let me ask

11    you briefly to describe who it was that you were reporting to.

12       A.   That was a big question because we had recently changed the

13    special representative, and I don't know whether this -- I think this

14    document related to communication with the new incoming former High

15    Commissioner for Refugees, Thorvald Stoltenberg, and he was the person to

16    whom I normally reported, however, as you will have seen from the

17    documents, the reporting chain was a very complicated one, which certainly

18    I will go into if you wish, but I'm not sure that they would add a lot of

19    information.  I don't know.

20       Q.   Is this a report that you then prepared and sent to

21    Mr. Stoltenberg, Kofi Annan, and others?

22       A.   Yes, certainly Stoltenberg and probably Andreev as well as

23    Ms. Boyd.

24       Q.   Now, do you recognise your signature on the document?

25       A.   Yes, I do.

Page 26183

 1       Q.   And does this relate to in paragraph 1 meetings held on the 20th

 2    of August, 1993?

 3       A.   I believe so.

 4       Q.   Okay.  It indicates there:  "Meetings here today with Stojic and

 5    Petkovic of HVO ..."

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And it's indicated here that they had:  "... Agreed to facilitate

 8    humanitarian relief convoy Saturday to the Muslim side ..."

 9       A.   That is what I think this shows, yes.

10       Q.   Thank you.

11       A.   If I might just add to my answer.  I see also that

12    Lieutenant-General Briquemont was also -- I also reported to him.

13       Q.   Okay.  And then Hayes was a general at the UNPROFOR

14    headquarters --

15       A.   He was a brigadier-general, British army, reporting to Kiseljak

16    and to -- and to other senior officers.

17       Q.   Very well.  Now, if I could take you back to the press release of

18    the 20th of August, which is Exhibit 3858, because in this press release

19    Shannon Boyd is attributing some quotes to you, and I wanted to ask you if

20    you could comment on those.  I'm looking at the fourth paragraph in which

21    you state that:  "We have expressed to both parties our determined intent

22    to open routes for humanitarian supplies, freedom of movement for

23    UNPROFOR, not only in Mostar but throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina."

24            And then continuing you say:  "'Our urgent concern is to have the

25    humanitarian relief programme, which will be required whatever the outcome

Page 26184

 1    of the current Geneva negotiations, fully operational before the onset of

 2    winter.'"

 3            Could I ask you --

 4            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE PRANDLER:  I'm sorry, Mr. Stringer, to interrupt you.  I do

 6    not find in that document which you refer to Exhibit 3858.  Is it in the

 7    same exhibit what you are quoting now?

 8            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, it's in 38 --

 9            JUDGE PRANDLER:  38 --

10            MR. STRINGER:  -- 58 --

11            JUDGE PRANDLER:  -- 58, yes, but there are a number of papers in

12    it.

13            MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  Your Honour, if you look at the bottom

14    right-hand corner there are some numbers that are stamped.

15            JUDGE PRANDLER:  Yes, yes.

16            MR. STRINGER:  And if you turn to the one that is stamped

17    00079704, 9704.

18            JUDGE PRANDLER:  Okay.  Yes, thank you very much, I've found it.

19            MR. STRINGER:

20       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, one of the issues, actually, that the Trial

21    Chamber has invited you to give evidence about is the issue of

22    humanitarian aid and access to humanitarian aid.  And just keying off of

23    this press release and the quotes that are attributed to you there, could

24    I ask you to address that issue, humanitarian aid, how significant was it

25    to you at this time?

Page 26185

 1       A.   I'm very happy to try to answer that question because it was an

 2    extremely important issue for us.  The provision of humanitarian aid was

 3    one of the major tasks -- in fact, it was the major task of the -- of

 4    UNPROFOR, both within Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the mission area as a

 5    whole.  And during the time when I think which is most relevant, perhaps

 6    from the middle of June and for the next -- certainly the next six weeks

 7    was that we were beginning to obtain -- we were given reports, given

 8    reports, by our offices in different parts of the country and by the

 9    military, who were particularly important on this.  And they brought to

10    our attention, essentially to my boss who was Mr. Cot, they brought to our

11    attention the fact that because of interference with the relief columns

12    which was being undertaken -- so far as I could identify, by everybody in

13    that part of the world at that time, I say "everybody," I mean by the

14    various military forces were beginning to use aid, humanitarian aid and

15    medical aid, were using that as part of a negotiation.  And this was

16    beginning to bite very hard, indeed, on the situation, the humanitarian

17    situation, humanitarian obligations of the -- of the UN military.

18            So putting it very -- as briefly as I can, this was beginning to

19    be the -- certainly the most important consideration on the part of the UN

20    and the part of UNPROFOR.  And we were trying -- we for our part were

21    trying to find ways around the blockades and the -- the blockades which

22    were being run at that time by a number of countries' military, and

23    especially by the -- those who were working in Bosnia.  Bosnia was

24    absolutely critical, and I remember one of our generals telling me that if

25    something was not done to break this blockade, that the "spectre of

Page 26186

 1    famine," I remember him saying, the "spectre of famine will be all over

 2    your country, all over your land, if this is not done."  I'm sorry to be

 3    so long-winded about this, but it was a very significant thing that was

 4    said to us.

 5       Q.   Was this an issue that was part of the negotiations in Mostar,

 6    particularly in respect of East Mostar?

 7       A.   Yeah, it was very much in the forefront of our preoccupation.  We

 8    had to break that blockade some way or another, preferably, preferably, by

 9    negotiation.  The UN on the whole does things by negotiation.  We are not

10    a war-making entity; we are a peace force.  And that can sometimes be

11    misunderstood, but that is usually the most effective way in any event of

12    bringing home to the countries as a whole, the various countries, the best

13    way of relieving some of the suffering which was being felt by people all

14    over the Balkans.

15       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, if you would turn the page to the next press

16    release which is for the 21st of August, 1993.

17            MR. STRINGER:  And for everyone else, this is the page -- it's in

18    a different part of the exhibit.  It's with the stamped numbers ending

19    9696 continuing to 9697.

20       Q.   Now, in this press release Shannon Boyd is writing about a trip

21    that you made with others to the Muslim area of Mostar on the left bank of

22    the Neretva River.  And while I ask you or before I ask you to talk more

23    about this -- the information in this press release, perhaps we could just

24    take a look at the next video, the last video clip.

25                          [Videotape played]

Page 26187

 1            "MR. THORNBERRY:  We have to establish some kind of stable route,

 2    wherever that comes from, Croat side, Serb side, to get access to this

 3    area."

 4            MR. STRINGER:

 5       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, is that footage then of the trip that you made

 6    into East Mostar on the 21st of August, 1993?

 7       A.   What were the dates again, please?

 8       Q.   21st of August, that was the press release that we just looked at.

 9       A.   Yes, that's the one.

10       Q.   Okay.

11            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I don't know if it's time for the

12    break yet or when --

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall have a break now.  It

14    is just about 20 to.  We shall have a 20-minute break.

15                          --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

16                          --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, the hearing is

18    resumed for another hour and a half.  The witness will be able to rest

19    afterwards.

20            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, just before the break we had looked at video

22    footage of the trip into East Mostar, the -- and in a few minutes I'm

23    going to ask you about a second trip that you made into East Mostar a few

24    days later.  But at this point my question is to ask you to inform the

25    Trial Chamber, give some general comments on the humanitarian situation as

Page 26188

 1    it existed in East Mostar on those two occasions in August of 1993 when

 2    you were present there, the humanitarian condition of the population in

 3    East Mostar.

 4       A.   The situation of the population of East Mostar was, it appeared to

 5    me - and I was also told - was very much worse than that in West Mostar.

 6    It was evident that people and especially children were undergoing great

 7    physical difficulty.  One of the problems was that children seemed to be

 8    targeted quite often by unidentified snipers.  Moreover, the condition of

 9    adults in that side of the town seemed on visible -- on apparent view to

10    be quite difficult and to involve the beginnings of -- serious beginnings

11    of lack of nourishment, food, the danger of shrapnel from bombs and -- and

12    the general condition was very poor and apparently getting worse according

13    to our Spanish Battalion APCs who until a little earlier had been running

14    into and out of Mostar.

15            If you have any specific question about that, I would be glad to

16    try to answer.  It was a very widespread problem.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do have a question, sir.  I

18    heard very carefully what you just told us, and I remembered the video

19    clip that we saw a couple of minutes ago.  I was thinking of these

20    children in Mostar east that were going to get water, some of them were

21    carrying canisters of water or jerrycans.  Two things hit me.

22            As I was watching the video, I was able to notice that these

23    children all seemed to be in perfect health and I was able to also see

24    that they had water and that everybody was walking around with jerrycans

25    of water, and I also noticed that people are walking quickly.  They do not

Page 26189

 1    give the impression of being exhausted as if they had eaten well.

 2            So when I listened to you, you're talking about snipers, shooting,

 3    so on and so forth, but I am under the impression that a few things are

 4    being confused here.  One, the population and their survival in terms of

 5    everyday life and the difficulty they had in terms of nourishment and so

 6    on and so forth.  We've been hearing witnesses for two years now in this

 7    trial.  We've received also listings of humanitarian convoys, not one,

 8    two, or ten, but hundreds of humanitarian convoys.  We saw lists of

 9    convoys leaving from Zagreb going to all sorts of places in

10    Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11            Now, a Judge listening to what was going on and a Judge that likes

12    to wonder, to think, to ask himself questions, and I belong to that

13    category of Judges, I do not take everything at face value, I'm just

14    wondering what is the reality of this health situation?  Many of your

15    international colleagues testified, and I put these questions to them

16    already, I asked already if somebody died of hunger but nobody told me,

17    Yes, people died from starvation.  So what is the real, exact situation,

18    could you please tell us.

19            THE WITNESS:  Sir, thank you for that question, and I appreciate

20    your consideration of that matter.  I also noticed in the video, in the

21    blow-up of the video, that the children and young people by and large, by

22    and large, looked fairly healthy.  Some of them were playing in the

23    street, and they had there evidently not been totally -- their morale had

24    not been seriously affected.  One saw this very much indeed with the

25    children playing around the armoured personnel carriers of the Spaniards

Page 26190

 1    and otherwise.  I am not a doctor.  I have no way of making an evaluation

 2    of the health of children living in -- under such conditions, and I was

 3    very much aware of that when we were in Mostar particularly on the first

 4    visit we made to Mostar.

 5            We also had a great deal of contact with the doctors, the surgeons

 6    and doctors there and also in an area which I'm sure will be referred to

 7    Nova Bila, which was a church turned more or less into a hospital.  I'm

 8    afraid I do not -- I cannot answer that question.  Perhaps it might

 9    require evidence which I don't have, but I had absolutely no doubt in my

10    mind, having seen in particular children in a hospital room, in a hospital

11    bed, with two other children.  When I saw them with amputated limbs

12    looking cheerful into the camera, I thought that there was something

13    seriously wrong.

14            My final point, however, is this:  I don't think I have been

15    trying to say, I have been trying to take this in a dispassionate manner.

16    It's difficult with kids, but I have been -- I have been under no doubt

17    that what the doctors were saying to us about the condition of the

18    population and of the children in particular, that they were -- the

19    problem -- I'm sorry, let me say -- let me re-say that.  What we were

20    particularly being briefed about was the condition which was beginning to

21    fall upon cities such as Mostar, towns and villages throughout the

22    country.  It was not yet in many cases a reality, but it was a threat, a

23    major threat, as testified to us by two in any event of the physicians or

24    surgeons in that part of Mostar.  I hope I have given some assistance on

25    this matter, sir, but I cannot be more specific than that.

Page 26191

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have a great deal of

 2    experience.  Your personal history shows us that you went to Namibia in

 3    various parts of the world which were in trouble, and you were able to

 4    compare, I suppose, places where we see people suffering from starvation

 5    and that live under terrible conditions such as Darfur, for instance.  But

 6    from what you were able to see in your own experience, what you saw in

 7    East Mostar, is there something that you would like to insist on, to tell

 8    us.  Do you -- can you make a comparison?  Would you like to highlight

 9    something?

10            THE WITNESS:  Most of my experience has been in the Middle East,

11    and there the problem was shelling rather than famine.  Is it possible for

12    me to think about that for a moment -- for a little while, perhaps to come

13    back to it?  I should like to be of assistance to the Court in this

14    matter.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you wish, sir.  Since you are

16    here for a couple of hours you will be able to go back on that answer.

17    But talking about 1993, if I remember correctly, in Somalia there were

18    also problems, famine problems and starvation problems, et cetera.  Would

19    you -- were you able to compare what was going on in Somalia and Mostar,

20    in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when you went there?

21            THE WITNESS:  Well, both -- the children in both parts of the city

22    in -- I was in Somalia for a fairly short time, about six weeks actually,

23    and I travelled a little bit but not a very great deal into the areas in

24    which there were reported to have been famine conditions.  I didn't see

25    those conditions in Somalia, probably because I wasn't there long enough

Page 26192

 1    nor was I able to move too far around the countryside for a variety of

 2    reasons.  I find it difficult to go beyond saying that the unambiguous

 3    and -- the unambiguous evidence in Mostar was very much more daunting than

 4    anything I saw in Somalia.

 5            But if I might think better on that because, as I said, my -- I

 6    was also stimulated by what I saw of that film clip, and there were a

 7    number of -- a number -- it was a very revealing document I thought.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We will get back to

 9    it.  Thank you very much.

10            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, you had pointed out that my last question was

12    somewhat general, and let me try to make it a little more specific on this

13    issue of the humanitarian situation in East Mostar.  Could you address

14    specific items such as shelter and the structures as they existed in East

15    Mostar, water, and then thirdly the situation that you found in the

16    hospital on the east side of Mostar, those three points, perhaps starting

17    with the issue of shelter and the physical structures in East Mostar.

18       A.   I'll try.  I think I mentioned that there did not appear to be any

19    single building in East Mostar which had not been affected by gun-fire.

20    Usually shells, mortars.  Sometimes in using anti-aircraft shelling for --

21    as ground strafing.  I'm not a military man, I don't know what the

22    definition of it is, but if there were very many different forms of attack

23    on the population which were actually taking place.

24            As regards water, we were told by the medical persons who were --

25    who had remained in Mostar, East Mostar, that the population was obliged

Page 26193

 1    to rely upon water from the river, which was heavily polluted and

 2    apparently contained many indications of entero -- I'm afraid I can't

 3    remember the word exactly, but in effect it was some kind of stomach

 4    illness coming from using polluted water.  One of the concerns was that

 5    typhoid was -- had to be very close by.  That's one, two -- sorry.  Could

 6    you mention to me again the third aspect.

 7       Q.   The hospital --

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   -- when you visited the hospital in East Mostar.

10       A.   Yes, the hospital was truly dramatic or melodramatic perhaps in

11    its -- the manner in which the patients were being treated.  My

12    understanding was - and again evidently this is coming to me from other

13    people, not my own direct perception - the condition of the hospitals

14    without electricity, without adequate water, without any of the other

15    major life-giving and life-preserving elements.  Blood, for example, one

16    can go through a list of items, many of which were either in shortage or

17    were not, in fact, available at all.  I think those are the three major

18    items, but perhaps there might be others which -- to which one can speak.

19       Q.   We are essentially talking about paragraph 57 of your witness

20    statement, and this contains one of the modifications or additions that I

21    believe you'd indicated you wanted to make.  Yeah, this is your witness

22    statement on page 15.  If the usher could assist you, perhaps.  Page 15,

23    the second full paragraph where you --

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   You indicated that:  "On entering East Mostar," you "were

Page 26194

 1    confronted with a situation worse than anything I've ever seen in

 2    Yugoslavia with the exception of Vukovar."

 3            And the statement reads "in terms of physical destruction," and I

 4    believe you had a modification or something you wanted to add to that, the

 5    last term of that sentence in terms of the physical destruction.

 6       A.   This is paragraph 57?

 7       Q.   Yes.  Yes, sir.

 8       A.   Well, it says that:  "We visited the hospital, a building

 9    converted for the purpose and found most of the patients in the basement,

10    the safest place.  There we found many wounded amputees including

11    children, sometimes three to a bed."

12       Q.   In that paragraph did you want to indicate also that you found

13    human and physical destruction?

14            MR. KOVACIC:  [Microphone not activated]

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may say this

17    before the witness answers.  I did not object so far, but my learned

18    friend from the Prosecution went beyond the allowed scope with his

19    question several times.  This does not change anything to the meaning, at

20    least until the Prosecutor puts words into the mouth of the witness.  This

21    is obviously a leading question.  The witness read the question, said he

22    had nothing to add, and nothing should be added by the Prosecutor.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, do not put words

24    in the witness's mouth; in other words, don't ask him to add something, to

25    add something as to his written statement.  You can say, for instance, in

Page 26195

 1    paragraph 57 you said this:  "Do you confirm what you said," for instance.

 2      I'm not quite convinced of what Mr. Kovacic just said, though.

 3            MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm just trying to bring the

 4    witness to a few of the modifications he had previously indicated he

 5    wishes to make now, but I won't suggest to the witness again what those

 6    would be if he doesn't have anything to say today about that.

 7            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the witness said

 8    something to the Prosecution during proofing, then they should have taken

 9    the trouble of making a new statement that the witness would have signed

10    if that was supposed to be led as evidence.  We have nothing in writing,

11    the witness did not confirm it, I suggest that the Prosecutor move on.  It

12    is a fine point in any case, but as a matter of principle I cannot agree

13    that leading questions be allowed to go so far because the next time the

14    same thing will be done on a question which is critical.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, let me summarize.  In

16    paragraph 57 you described a hospital in East Mostar, then you describe

17    the city in a general way.  Do you have something to modify as to the way

18    you described things in paragraph 57 or would you like to maintain that

19    paragraph without any modification?

20            THE WITNESS:  I have no modification in mind and nothing has been

21    brought to my attention this afternoon to persuade me that a modification

22    should be made.

23            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25            MR. STRINGER:

Page 26196

 1       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, turning to paragraph 60 of your statement, you

 2    indicate that by the 23rd of August there was intense media coverage of

 3    your trip into East Mostar and the conditions that prevailed there at the

 4    time.  And then at paragraph 61 you make a reference to a Mr. Eide of the

 5    International Conference for the former Yugoslavia and yourself as having

 6    been called by the Croatian foreign minister, Mr. Mate Granic.  My

 7    question is whether you met Mr. Granic in Zagreb then as a result of this

 8    contact?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And did Mr. Granic indicate a willingness to assist you in

11    organizing a convoy into East Mostar?

12       A.   He did indeed.

13       Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Granic then subsequently came to Mostar

14    himself?

15       A.   He came to Mostar, I met him in Mostar.

16       Q.   Can you tell the Court, please, based on your observations to what

17    extent during this time did Mr. Granic -- to what extent, if any, did

18    Mr. Granic have influence over the control of decisions that were being

19    made about Mostar?

20       A.   Well, there are two parts of an answer to that question.  First of

21    all, Mr. Granic was the foreign minister and he told us, he told me in any

22    event, that he had been -- he had spent some time with his president,

23    Mr. Tudjman, the previous day looking at this situation of convoys of

24    military decisions that were having substantial humanitarian implications

25    and so on.  And he said that his president, President Tudjman, now

Page 26197

 1    deceased I'm sorry to say, Mr. Tudjman had told Mr. Granic that he,

 2    Tudjman, thoroughly supported his position in regard to the movement of

 3    convoys and of their content of humanitarian goods and medical goods.

 4            So in other words, he had given -- he had given his full support

 5    said Mr. Granic, to what Granic was actually doing; that is to say,

 6    behaving in a manner that was perhaps very impressive from a humanitarian

 7    point of view but would have been rather an unusual position to take up in

 8    regard to a democratic government where ministers are usually expected to

 9    tow the line.

10       Q.   Then the other part of my question was:  Based on your

11    observation, the extent, if any, to which Mr. Granic was able to exercise

12    influence or control over the decisions about Mostar.

13       A.   I'm not -- I don't think that he went to Mostar or certainly not

14    at that time, but I do believe that he had, as he told us, discussed with

15    his president the previous evening, in other words, the evening of the day

16    when we had been to east and West Mostar, rather, not very fully in some

17    cases -- I'm sorry, I can't remember what the other part of your question

18    was on that subject.

19       Q.   Let me direct you to paragraph 63 --

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   -- of your statement and you talk about:  "On ...  Wednesday, the

22    25th of August," just as you were ready to leave, "Mr. Boban and

23    Mr. Granic came to see us for an hour," and you go on to talk about that.

24    And so again my question is whether Mr. Granic had authority or influence

25    over the decisions that were being made about Mostar.

Page 26198

 1       A.   First of all, I should say that I noticed only today at lunchtime

 2    the fact that in paragraph 63 there is a very serious error.  It states

 3    that -- paragraph states that -- let me see.  63, it -- the statement

 4    appears to say:  "This was an aggressive self-righteous, face-saving visit

 5     ... for the benefit of the press."

 6            I think some of those adjectives are inaccurate, and I'm sorry

 7    that I had failed to pick them up on the first time they went around.  I

 8    would not say those things at the moment with consideration.

 9       Q.   Let me -- and I'll bring you back to that --

10       A.   Right.

11       Q.   With respect, I'm still hoping to get an answer to the original

12    question which was whether based on your observations Mr. Granic could

13    exert influence or authority about Mostar.

14       A.   Well, he did -- I'm sorry that I haven't made myself clear on

15    that, I should have done.  I thought I had, actually, made this fairly

16    clear.  Mr. Granic is foreign minister was -- I think he still is foreign

17    minister, and the next sentence is gratuitous.

18       Q.   Apart from what you say in the statement, Mr. Thornberry, do you

19    have a recollection now based on your observations at the time what was

20    happening?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Was Mr. Granic able to exert control or influence over the Bosnian

23    Croat authorities whom you were meeting with during this period?

24       A.   Yes, without any doubt.

25       Q.   Can you elaborate in what way -- what's the basis of that

Page 26199

 1    conclusion?

 2       A.   What Mr. Granic told me.

 3       Q.   What did he tell you?

 4       A.   He said that he was able to get hold of Boban and that Mr. Boban

 5    would find himself obliged to do as Mr. Granic had requested.  He also

 6    said, however, that it wouldn't require much influence because Mr. Granic

 7    was ready to -- either to modify his statement or to withdraw it

 8    altogether.  Does that answer your question, please?

 9       Q.   Yes, thank you.  And then the final series -- I was going to say

10    it's the final series of questions but it's not quite but we're almost

11    done.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

13            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I apologise.  On the

14    English channel we're hearing your question in French, so I don't -- and

15    nothing's been interpreted up to this point.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me start from the beginning.

17    What I was saying, on reading your written statement we have a clear

18    impression that in Zagreb because of the media coverage in the area, this

19    is in paragraph 60, you explain that all of this has been publicised in

20    Mostar, the British, the Americans, the Germans are all there, all the

21    television crews are there.  And it seems that Tudjman and Granic do

22    something in favour of humanitarian aid that is to be brought to Mostar.

23            Now, you discuss matters with Mr. Granic and Mr. Granic tells you

24    that he is able to convince Boban re:  The decisions that have been taken.

25    And you tell us that in paragraph 63 there's a mistake because one is

Page 26200

 1    under the impression that Boban and Granic had an aggressive attitude to

 2    this.  No, this is not what I meant.  So a Judge in Tuzla [as interpreted]

 3    wonders whether there has been a humanitarian convoy that left from Zagreb

 4    with the political approval of Mr. Granic and Mr. Tudjman.  And the local

 5    authorities, amongst others Mr. Boban and perhaps other people, made sure

 6    that the humanitarian aid convoy could move forward.  Is this how you

 7    experienced things when you were there?

 8            THE WITNESS:  One moment, please, sir, while I read this.

 9            Yes.  Thank you.  I don't think that there's any question that

10    Boban and Granic had an aggressive attitude.  I don't know what happened

11    in private between the two of them.  I know that Granic came down to

12    Medjugorje in order to create a different and better situation to the one

13    that had been put forward before.  I'm not sure I understand what is meant

14    by the reference to a judge in Tuzla.  And then finally --

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Tuzla shouldn't be mentioned

16    here.  Nobody ever mentioned Tuzla.  In the transcript we can read Tuzla;

17    that's got nothing to do here with what's being said.

18            THE WITNESS:  So does that mean I don't need to make any comment

19    on that?  Because I have a comment to make.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The aggressive attitude of Boban

21    and Granic, are we to understand that both men were not in agreement and

22    that there was some dispute or disagreement between the two men?  What do

23    you have to say about this?

24            THE WITNESS:  May I try to answer your question, sir.  It is a

25    mistake for me -- it would have been a mistake for me to have had the

Page 26201

 1    political approval of Mr. Granic and Mr. Tudjman.  I think that is

 2    probably true.  The word "aggressive" is the one that I object to.  I

 3    don't think that was the atmosphere which we had, and in any event it is

 4    very difficult, sir, if I may say so, to enter into this in detail because

 5    presumably the parties would close the curtains, as it were, and be

 6    unwilling to discuss what happened between a prime minister -- president

 7    and his foreign minister.

 8            I would certainly be surprised if that issue was left open.  I

 9    don't think Granic adopted an attitude of aggressiveness.  I think he

10    probably explained to Mr. Boban - and this is supposition, sir - I suppose

11    he would have expected to state to Mr. Boban and others that it was time

12    for him to finish and exit from this issue which was otherwise important,

13    because we do find other references later to Granic's continuing shall we

14    say "liberal" position vis-a-vis his own government and his own president.

15    It was a very unusual action, sir.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What you're saying sounds very

17    complicated.  It's difficult for me to understand.  So it's either one or

18    other situation.  Either Mr. Granic explains to Mr. Boban that things have

19    been decided and that there will be a humanitarian aid convoy and Boban

20    has to accept this and has his back to the wall, or Mr. Boban is shuffling

21    his feet and does not agree with the decision that has been taken.

22            So as you were in contact with all these people, the decision that

23    was taken to send the humanitarian convoy, did this not give rise to any

24    difficulty; and if it did give rise to any difficulties, why did it and at

25    what level?

Page 26202

 1            THE WITNESS:  I think Mr. Boban was probably overruled by his

 2    president, which is something that I do not find surprising, but which

 3    perhaps in the circumstances was rather conclusive.

 4            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Thornberry, to whom do you refer

 5    when you say Boban and "his president"?  Who would be the president of

 6    Mr. Boban?

 7            THE WITNESS:  Mr. Tudjman I think would be the president of

 8    Mr. Granic.  Mr. Tudjman.

 9            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Here you spoke of Mr. Boban.  Did you mean Granic

10    rather than Boban?  Line 7 of page 46 you say --

11            THE WITNESS:  Line 7 --

12            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  -- "Mr. Boban was probably overruled by his

13    president."

14            Did you say "Boban" when you were thinking of Granic?

15            THE WITNESS:  No, sir, I was thinking of Boban.  Mr. Boban was

16    hierarchically subject to the authority of the president evidently, but I

17    think was also less -- had less authority than Mr. Boban did.

18            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Could you --

19            THE WITNESS:  It was an unusual situation.

20            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Could you tell the Chamber what according to your

21    recollection the position of Mr. Boban was formally?

22            THE WITNESS:  I think he was the head of government of the

23    Bosnian -- the Bosnian authorities.  He was -- he had the responsibility,

24    the authority, to deal with those authorities and to, as we see perhaps in

25    this occasion, to present this issue to his president, Mr. Tudjman, and to

Page 26203

 1    say to Mr. Tudjman, I have talked now to Mr. Boban and he sees that he

 2    could or should follow the line which I am -- I am taking.  Sorry if I'm

 3    using a lot of words.  I suspect I'm making this much more complicated

 4    than it is.

 5            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me for having interrupted you, President.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You seem to say that Mr. Boban

 7    was a subordinate of Mr. Tudjman in your mind.  Mr. Boban has a president

 8    above him, and that's Mr. Tudjman.  That's what you seem to be saying.

 9            THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, exactly.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But question, in that case

11    Mr. Tudjman is president of the state which is called the Republic of

12    Croatia; Mr. Boban is a citizen of another country which is called Bosnia

13    and Herzegovina.  So how do you establish a connection between the two?

14            THE WITNESS:  My understanding, sir, is that the situation in that

15    part of the world was a very complicated one with different authorities

16    and different capacities.  This is the only way to be able to explain

17    Mr. Tudjman's attitude and the attitude of Mr. Boban and these are the

18    facts of life in that particular part of the world at that particular

19    time.  As I say, it is irregular to anyone who has a clear or determined

20    adherence to the rules of democracy or of parliamentary democracy.  We

21    don't have a parliamentary democracy situation here, but we do have

22    clearly different sources of authority.  That's what I'm trying to say.

23    I'm not sure that it's ...

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, we have understood

25    what you have said.

Page 26204

 1            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Still I would like to return to this paragraph

 2    63.  Frankly, I do not know what you are saying now.  You have said a bit

 3    vaguely that you withdrew some objectives that you would not put in

 4    anymore, but are you still saying that the visit Messrs. Boban and Granic

 5    paid to you or paid to East Mostar was a gratuitous act, a show, a [French

 6    spoken] for the press, or do you take that back and accept that they

 7    visited this because it was an area of problems, and they had

 8    responsibility and took their responsibility?

 9            THE WITNESS:  I would certainly endorse the second point of view

10    that you mentioned, sir.  What I found in this paragraph when I read it

11    regretfully for the first time today was use of language which I would not

12    have -- I would not have deployed.  It is too crass.

13            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

14            MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, just one follow-up question on this point that the

16    Judges have been asking you about.  I'm looking at the transcript at the

17    top of page 47 which you were asked what, according to your recollection,

18    was the position of Mr. Boban formally.  And you said:  "I think he was

19    head of the government of the Bosnian authorities."  This is in the

20    transcript, Mr. Thornberry, it's not in the statement.  It's just a

21    follow-up to one of the responses that you just gave.  So my question --

22    you had indicated that:  "He was head of the government of the Bosnian --

23    the Bosnian authorities."

24            My question is whether you can provide any more specificity there.

25    Was there any particular element within the Bosnian authorities that he

Page 26205

 1    was in charge of or head of?

 2       A.   Well, thank you.  I'm not sure that I can go beyond what I've

 3    actually said in paragraph [sic] 47.

 4       Q.   Okay.

 5       A.   I know what he himself described himself as, and that was the head

 6    of the authorities.  I think we -- I think we have correspondence with him

 7    which actually confirms that, but I -- to be very frank, I don't know that

 8    I can go behind what I think he actually stated to us.  It didn't -- what

 9    it did do was to place the responsibility on Mr. Granic and Mr. Granic was

10    the main, the principal, actor in this situation I suppose with the UN

11    that they were undoubtedly in charge of the event.  Provided that, let me

12    again be blunt, provided that the generals who were under his authority

13    complied with decisions which Mr. Boban and Mr. Granic took.  That is

14    another question and perhaps it's one of some interest.

15       Q.   Okay.  Let me -- I'm going to shift gears now because we're just

16    sort of starting to touch upon the issue of the convoy of 25 August 1993,

17    and I'm not going to ask you to go into the details of the convoy as they

18    are set out in your statement.  But there is one clarification I'd like to

19    ask you about.  On page 16 of your statement at the bottom, paragraph

20    65 --

21       A.   I'm sorry, do you mean the --

22       Q.   Yeah, perhaps the usher could assist you with turning to page 16,

23    paragraph 65 of the report --

24       A.   Got it, thanks.  Thank you.

25       Q.   -- where you indicate that the convoy was finally underway and it

Page 26206

 1    comprised about 50 trucks.  And then the statement continues to the next

 2    page where you indicate that:  "Within a mile we were halted for an hour

 3    by demonstrating women."  You make reference to a Mr. Stojic there and

 4    then continuing you make reference to Citluk and a Bosnian Croat

 5    commander.  I wonder if you could just tell the Trial Chamber, please,

 6    what you recall now about the incident or incidents referred to in this

 7    paragraph in which the convoy was stopped and then was allowed to proceed.

 8       A.   Well, that was what happened indeed.  The convoy set off from

 9    Medjugorje at perhaps around 1600 hours in the afternoon, perhaps 1600

10    hours in the afternoon, but when it reached to Citluk the -- it seemed as

11    if an organized demonstration was taking place on the part of the

12    villagers and that demonstration was against us and it was intended

13    apparently to prevent us from moving forward and instead holding us --

14    keeping us still.  I don't exactly know why it would be speculative for me

15    to enter into that particular decision.

16            I am not sure, and though I was there, what Mr. Stojic -- who he

17    was and what he was doing at that point.  I was imprecise in my knowledge

18    of the local authorities in Bosnia at that time.  I wasn't very much

19    involved with the events of that kind except in regard to the convoy and

20    to some other actions.  The villagers began to throw stones at the

21    convoys, and the military -- my military colleagues, the Colonel Morales

22    and others were becoming quite nervous - well, so was I - as to what was

23    going to happen next.  In fact, after about an hour, as I remember it,

24    maybe an hour and a half, a Bosnian officer came from the houses around

25    Citluk, the main street through Citluk, and leapt up on the bonnet of an

Page 26207

 1    APC, I think it was an APC, it might have been a regular vehicle, a

 2    command vehicle for the convoy, I don't remember that exactly.  But they

 3    climbed up on the -- or he climbed up on the truck.  The crowd applauded

 4    him and said, Good for you, sort of thing, but they did disband and we

 5    proceeded to the airport where we were apparently going to have to spend

 6    the night because we were very late and it was already dark.  I don't

 7    think I can remember very much more about it than that.

 8       Q.   Just one point of clarification.  You indicate that a Bosnian

 9    officer emerged, and we have to be more specific about whether you're

10    talking about a Bosnian Croat or a Bosnian Muslim or a Bosnian Serb.

11    You've indicated that -- this in paragraph 65 of your statement, but if

12    you could specify.

13       A.   I believe he was a Bosnian Croat, senior officer.

14       Q.   Okay.  And do you recall as you sit here today who that was, who

15    the person was that came and spoke to the crowd?

16       A.   I'm sorry, no, I cannot remember.

17       Q.   Okay.

18       A.   And if I were to suggest otherwise, it would be pure speculation

19    I'm afraid.

20       Q.   You've touched on this briefly already, but I know that it's

21    something that --

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness, please.

23    If the person who climbed on the vehicle was in this room, were in this

24    room, would you recognise him?  If the person who jumped on the bonnet

25    were in this room, would you recognise him?

Page 26208

 1            THE WITNESS:  I doubt it.  I think probably not, not more than 20

 2    per cent chance.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4            MR. STRINGER:

 5       Q.   In paragraph 69 of your statement which is on page 17, you've

 6    touched on this already, but I'd like to ask you to address this

 7    specifically, the issue of sniping.  In this paragraph you talk about

 8    sniping and your impression that the civilians were equally targeted.  My

 9    question is to ask you to tell the Trial Chamber what you saw yourself and

10    what you experienced in relation to sniping in East Mostar and on what

11    basis you form your views about sniping as set out in paragraph 69.

12       A.   I wasn't hit by a -- strike -- a sniper and I didn't, in fact, see

13    any incident involving sniping.  However, the military on whose expertise

14    I was throughout dependent, warned me of certain areas in Mostar into

15    which I should not venture other than under armour.  And I was told by

16    them to beware of these areas, and if I did enter into them I might very

17    well be injured or -- at best.  The --

18       Q.   Excuse me --

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   When you say the military --

21       A.   Yeah.

22       Q.   -- could you specify which military.

23       A.   I mean the colonel and captains and senior officers of the -- of

24    the military presence who were giving -- who were driving us and giving us

25    advice.  They told me that if I did cross these areas safely, it would be

Page 26209

 1    remarkable and they said, Well, if you are by any chance left out for any

 2    reason, if on some -- in regard to some action or another you are being

 3    left out or if you are talking to radio broadcasting somewhere in the

 4    west -- western Europe, that I should try to take evasive action as we

 5    moved along.

 6            There was a phrase used that has remained in my mind and that was

 7    the reference to Sarajevo a hundred or so kilometres away and the phrase

 8    used was:  The Sarajevo sprint, the Sarajevo sprint, that is to say

 9    running at full pelt, head down in a zigzag format, the Sarajevo sprint.

10       Q.   Okay.

11       A.   It was not apparently completely successful because it was

12    apparently the main -- the main problem there was in terms of small arms

13    and bombardment.

14       Q.   Mr. Thornberry, my last exhibit is in the binder at 4673, if you

15    could turn to 4673.  Do you recognise your signature on this document,

16    sir?

17       A.   This is my document, yes.

18       Q.   It's a report from the 1st of September, 1993.

19       A.   That sounds quite plausible.  I don't remember the date, but that

20    sounds right.

21       Q.   Do you see the date there under your signature?

22       A.   Yes, yes.

23       Q.   Okay.  Now, there's a reference in your statement to the Nova Bila

24    hospital, and my question is simply whether after then the convoy went

25    into East Mostar, did you subsequently travel to the hospital that was at

Page 26210

 1    Nova Bila?

 2       A.   I did.

 3       Q.   And paragraph 2 of your report here indicates that you're heading

 4    back to Zagreb.  So does the 1st of September then essentially bring to a

 5    close your involvement or your direct involvement in these events in

 6    Mostar?

 7       A.   No, because the -- it led to a new chapter, as it were, in this

 8    horrifying story.  Nova Bila was a church its congregation is not -- was

 9    not a congregation but a -- but it was a series of the -- in the body of

10    the church the pews had been pulled together so that they lay alongside

11    one another and the patients lay on those wooden pews.  I had an

12    involvement in visiting, as I had pledged to do, in visiting Nova Bila,

13    but once I got there it was a very interesting and revealing, though still

14    horrifying, location.

15            And after that, the lead-on after that was -- and it was, I

16    thought, in a way the most important thing that I had to do there was

17    because the underlying object was to try to get the parties to agree to a

18    new basis of relationship at that time; namely, to take, with their

19    agreement of course, children and adults to safe havens, I would use that

20    phrase I think, in various adjacent parts of the country, i.e.,

21    Bosnia-Herzegovina and also, I think, Croatia.

22            And these -- the -- it was necessary in my opinion and in the

23    opinion of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and also of the

24    International Committee of the Red Cross, all of whom I consulted on the

25    matter, and the outcome of this was the beginning of a new air-lift to

Page 26211

 1    remove people from -- patients seriously wounded or sick patients, to have

 2    them removed from that area to other areas which were, in fact, safe and

 3    which had medicaments and which had medical staff to deal with these.  So

 4    that my action was after that began.  My direct involvement continued

 5    after that began but very difficult -- very quickly afterwards other

 6    problems cropped up in regard to that Nova Bila location.

 7       Q.   And then were you ultimately able to achieve some medical

 8    evacuations, both from Nova Bila and the hospital in East Mostar?

 9       A.   Yes.  Yes.

10       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Thornberry, for your evidence.

11            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do have some follow-up

13    questions.  When we look at your written statement that also talks about

14    different topics, I noticed that you met many political figures of the

15    region, Izetbegovic, Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic.

16            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As well as some other political

18    figures.  Now, what I would like to know is I would like you to tell us

19    something about Tudjman and Boban.  When did you or how many times did you

20    meet Tudjman, to begin with him?

21            THE WITNESS:  20, maybe, 25 times.  I'm not too sure about that,

22    might be more, might be a little bit less.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And what about

24    Boban?

25            THE WITNESS:  Boban I met only perhaps four, five times.  I

Page 26212

 1    understood later that he was quite unwell and he has, indeed, passed away

 2    in the meantime.  But I didn't know him well at all because -- essentially

 3    because I didn't have very much involvement with the -- the fine print, as

 4    it were, of the relationship.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993 your main office, where

 6    was it, was it in Zagreb?

 7            THE WITNESS:  Our main office was technically in -- no, no, it was

 8    in Zagreb.  We had, however, a further, and both military and civilian

 9    office, at Kiseljak to the west I think of Zagreb.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You yourself went to

11    Bosnia and Herzegovina on few occasions.  I saw that you went to Vitez,

12    you went to Mostar.  During that period, how much time did you spend on

13    the ground, how many days to speak your terminology, to use your terms?

14            THE WITNESS:  My goodness, that's difficult to remember that off

15    the top of my head.  I will commit myself, however, and say perhaps

16    two-thirds -- perhaps three-fifths of my time was spent outside Zagreb

17    usually dealing with matters coming to me from other areas that were --

18    with other areas.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I didn't have any

20    further questions for you.  It is ten past 5.00.  I was told that we have

21    to finish the hearing of today at 5.32, so we would have some time left.

22            Would the Defence like to finish their cross-examination or wait

23    until tomorrow?

24            MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll start, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 26213

 1                          Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

 2       Q.   Good afternoon --

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, you have until

 4    5.32.  If you are not done, since you have 40 minutes, your colleague will

 5    finish tomorrow.

 6            MR. KARNAVAS:  I understand.

 7       Q.   Picking up where his President -- the President left off, in

 8    looking at your statement as I understand it you were in country more or

 9    less for approximately two years, March 1992 until March 1994.  Is that

10    correct?

11       A.   Maybe February.

12       Q.   February --

13       A.   February of 1993, yes.

14       Q.   Okay.  But more or less -- up -- approximately two years?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Okay.  And looking again at your statement, it would appear that

17    at least initially your primary focus had to do with Security Council

18    Resolution 743 that dealt primarily with Croatia, correct?

19       A.   I certainly dealt with mostly Croatian issues, yes.

20       Q.   Right.  And when we're talking about the Croatian issues, we're

21    talking about as a result of the JNA attack, situation that was happening

22    in the Krajina, that's what we're talking about, correct?

23       A.   Well, not only that.

24       Q.   Well --

25       A.   We also have to look at the situation in the sectors, all of which

Page 26214

 1    had different consequences --

 2       Q.   Right.

 3       A.   -- none of which were good news.

 4       Q.   When you say "consequences," you're referring to, for instance,

 5    humanitarian issues, refugee issues?

 6       A.   Yes, also the practice of expulsion of populations.

 7       Q.   And when you say "expulsion," who was -- is this by the Serbs

 8    expelling Croats or vice versa?

 9       A.   Both of those.

10       Q.   Okay.  Now, it's -- it says over here in your paragraph number 8

11    you say that initially the assessment by the colleagues in New York was

12    for you folks to put your headquarters or to have a basis in Sarajevo

13    because it would be invidious to have headquarters in either Zagreb or

14    Belgrade?

15       A.   That is correct.

16            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I apologise for the

17    interruption.  I'm looking at the Trial Chamber's decision on bringing

18    this witness here which laid down limitations on both direct and

19    cross-examination, and it appears to me that this question goes beyond the

20    scope of the Trial Chamber's ruling on cross-examination.  I say that only

21    because I limited my direct in an attempt to conform to the Trial

22    Chamber's decision, and I believe that counsel should be held to the same

23    limitations that we've adhered to.

24            MR. KARNAVAS:  I was under the impression that the Trial Chamber

25    was seeking the truth.  If I mistook that impression, then fine, I'll move

Page 26215

 1    on.  But I don't see how I can possibly jump into something without laying

 2    a foundation.  The reason for that is this:  At some point, as we all

 3    know, the move out of Sarajevo, it's my understanding, and they're located

 4    in other places, but he uses the word invidious, and I wanted to know why

 5    invidious.  Was that because you wanted to demonstrate impartiality, was

 6    that the purpose?

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.  To

 8    give an answer to Mr. Stringer's objection.  The decision that had been

 9    handed down on 15 November 2007, I would like to read it out to you, it's

10    paragraph 54.  It's a very long decision but this is what was said:  "The

11    cross-examination has to be limited to the subjects or the topics which

12    are relevant when it comes to the indictment with regard to the

13    municipality of Mostar, including its mission to Mostar from mid-August

14    1993, the restrictions to the access of international and humanitarian

15    organization to Mostar east in the month of August 1993, the sniping on

16    the population of Mostar east, the control exercised on the Republic of

17    Croatia regarding all the decisions relating to Mostar, as well as the

18    meeting on the 19th of August, 1993, with official representatives of the

19    HVO."

20            This is what we had set out in that decision.  These are the

21    limits.  Maybe your question is part of those limits, but once again maybe

22    you should reiterate your question.

23            MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll rephrase Your Honour, I'll rephrase. I don't

24    wish to have my time taken up with preliminary matters.

25       Q.   If we go to paragraph 39, sir, this may assist the Trial Chamber,

Page 26216

 1    I hope it does.  It says:  "Personally I did not pay significant attention

 2    to Bosnia-Herzegovina until the beginning of 1993 having to focus on the

 3    issues within Croatia which as I saw more political."

 4            So at least from paragraph 39 it would appear from 1992 that you

 5    were there.  It wasn't until sometime in 1993 that you actually began

 6    focusing a little bit on Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7       A.   Well, that was me --

 8       Q.   We're speaking about you, sir, we're not speaking about somebody

 9    else.

10       A.   We had approximately 15 general officers in our area of

11    responsibility, and that meant that we had the ample opportunity of

12    demarcating, of identifying people as against particular functions, one of

13    the functions which I was given was to try and get a Joint Commission to

14    look at the whole question of both -- the whole question of

15    responsibility.

16       Q.   Right.  But again -- and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm

17    not speaking -- I don't have 15 other people here I'm cross-examining, I

18    have you and I'm going through your statement.  So that's what I'm trying

19    to cross-examine you on your statement because we're here to seek your

20    knowledge, whatever you have.

21       A.   By all means I shall try to facilitate you.

22       Q.   Right.  Thank you, sir.

23            Now, you say that at one point, and this was brought out on direct

24    so I think it's safe enough for me to go into it on cross, on paragraph 42

25    you indicated or it was indicated that you said:  "My perception was that

Page 26217

 1    the Serbs and following closely in the shadow of the Croats were

 2    attempting to carve themselves out a large chunk of Bosnia and

 3    Herzegovina."

 4            And then if we go to paragraph 55 you say that:  "The idea that

 5    the Bosnian Croats were trying to carve out a piece of Bosnia themselves

 6    was considered just a fact of life.  It was not a notion anyone refuted."

 7            My question to you, sir, is:  Since you were there since 1992 in

 8    March, were you aware of any of the international negotiations that were

 9    going on and any of the particular plans, such as the Cutileiro Plan?

10    Were you specifically aware of the contents and what was being pushed

11    actually by the international community?

12       A.   I was aware of a number of attempts to gain -- to gain peace, to

13    achieve peace.

14       Q.   Well, if the Cutileiro Plan, for instance, called for three

15    regions, would it be Mr. Cutileiro who was actually trying to carve out

16    Bosnia and Herzegovina so that the three constituent peoples would each

17    have their own region within a sort of weaker state the way it ended up

18    with the Dayton accords?  Would you characterize Mr. Cutileiro as trying

19    to carve up Bosnia and Herzegovina, yes, no, I don't know --

20            MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, and I apologise for the interruption.

21    This is beyond the scope of the Trial Chamber's ruling on the scope of

22    cross-examination.  I've limited my direct, and I think it's unfair to not

23    hold counsel to the same limitations.

24            MR. KARNAVAS:  I wish to be heard.  I wish to be heard and make my

25    record, Mr. President.  I understand that the Trial Chamber may think

Page 26218

 1    otherwise, but you did allow the gentleman to go into this paragraph.  He

 2    mentioned that -- in fact, it was Mr. Stringer himself that read out the

 3    summary and paraphrased.  So now I'm going back and I am questioning him

 4    about the very same issues that were raised by the Prosecution.  So how is

 5    it that I'm going beyond the scope?

 6            If this is going beyond the scope then I should sit down because

 7    obviously the Trial Chamber does not wish for me to conduct a

 8    cross-examination.  This is part of -- this is a response.  The same thing

 9    goes on re-direct.  Re-direct is limited to what comes out on cross.  So

10    it's the same principle that's being applied here.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  And Mr. Stringer,

12    Mr. Karnavas says that while summarizing you mentioned in a certain way

13    the topic that he is raising now, so he believes that during his

14    cross-examination he can come back to what you mentioned in the summary.

15            MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I've stated my objection and I'll

16    clearly accept any decision the Trial Chamber gives on this question, but

17    I think it's worth bearing in mind that there are limitations have been

18    placed that I viewed applied to me as well.

19            MR. KARNAVAS:  If that were the case, Your Honour, I presume the

20    limitations were [Overlapping speakers] --

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please put your question --

22            MR. KARNAVAS:  [Previous translation continues]...  If limitations

23    were imposed and he knew those limitations, why did he go into them?

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your question, Mr. Karnavas.

25    Since the --

Page 26219

 1            MR. KARNAVAS:  Going back to --.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- The Cutileiro Plan ...

 3            MR. KARNAVAS:

 4       Q.   Going back to paragraph 55, you go on to say:  "Saying this, I was

 5    almost completely bogged down in Croatia and did not really focus on

 6    Bosnia -- on Bosnian issues.  Now, I mentioned this so maybe this might

 7    assist you in answering the previous question, and I'm asking you

 8    concretely now.  Could you please tell us what exactly was the Cutileiro

 9    Plan since you were in country at the time or shortly thereafter?  What

10    did it envisage and what were the respective positions, if you know.  If

11    you don't know, I'll move on.

12       A.   I don't think I know.  I don't think anyone merely because of

13    their presence in UNPROFOR knew what was happening.  The Cutileiro Plan

14    fell within the ambit of the European community, not of the United

15    Nations.

16       Q.   And I take it, sir, while you were there doing whatever you were

17    supposed to be doing and because of all the things that were happening you

18    were not keeping track what was happening in Geneva with the negotiators?

19       A.   Well, I was, actually.

20       Q.   Okay --

21       A.   At that stage -- let me be precise, please.  What date are you

22    talking about because that's important in the answer.

23       Q.   Well, I was going to get -- my next question is so then we go to

24    the Vance-Owen Peace Plan.  So surely now you're going to tell me the

25    exact details of the Vance-Owen Peace Plan and perhaps you can explain to

Page 26220

 1    us where in the Vance-Owen -- what did the Vance-Owen Peace Plan call for

 2    and how does that jive, how do you reconcile that with your bold statement

 3    that the Croats were trying to carve out a piece of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4       A.   Nobody challenged that; that was the reality.

 5       Q.   What was of the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, sir?  Could you please tell

 6    us what were the basics of it.  And you need not look at the Prosecution.

 7    He cannot help you.

 8       A.   I'm looking to see whether anyone is going to say anything to you

 9    about this --

10       Q.   To object?

11       A.   -- because I don't know what the detail of the Vance-Owen Peace

12    Plan was, it hasn't been publicised.  By the time this document comes

13    into -- becomes implemented, only then does one begin to know what is

14    going on in the Vance-Owen, Stoltenberg, and the number of -- there were a

15    different layers of negotiation.  This is very untidy, especially for

16    lawyers, but this is the reality.

17       Q.   Okay.  Untidy in the sense that it's pretty complicated and

18    convoluted and not everybody has the answers?

19       A.   Well, that's part of the problem.

20       Q.   Okay.  And it's fluid situation, would that be correct?  Fluid in

21    the sense that things are moving along and pretty difficult to know at any

22    given moment what is happening?

23       A.   Yes, but that's is the job of a political operation, especially of

24    a peacekeeping operation, is to keep track of those.

25       Q.   Now, you went to Mostar, you went to East Mostar and you were

Page 26221

 1    asked specific questions again, I think it's within my right of

 2    cross-examination, you talked about shelters, physical structures, and

 3    water in East Mostar.  My question, first of all:  Do you know what was

 4    happening in Mostar in 1992?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Okay.  Did anybody explain to you that in 1992 Mostar was shelled

 7    by the Serbs?

 8       A.   I knew that, yes.

 9       Q.   Okay.  You knew that.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down, Mr. Karnavas.

11            MR. KARNAVAS:  I apologise.

12       Q.   Did anybody explain to you or show you for comparison purposes

13    which structures had been damaged by the Serbs versus which structures

14    were being damaged now by the Croats?

15       A.   Did they have a little flag on them you mean?

16       Q.   No, I'm not being facetious nor flip, sir.  I'm asking you because

17    you went there and you went around with the media and there's a purpose

18    why I'm asking this question because you went around with the media and

19    you wanted to bring out attention and you indicated that not since Vukovar

20    had you see anything of the sort.  And I'm asking you did anybody point

21    out to you, because obviously you were totally unaware of the destruction

22    and havoc that had been suffered by Mostar, but did anybody actually point

23    out to you in East Mostar what the Serbs had done so you could say, Okay,

24    now I know the extent of the Croats what they're trying to do, did anybody

25    point that out to you?

Page 26222

 1       A.   That's a very good point and the answer is no I don't think anyone

 2    gave me an overall picture, they gave me partial pictures -- pictures of

 3    particular areas of destruction.

 4       Q.   Okay.  All right.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, very briefly.  We saw the

 6    video not long ago, we see streets on that video, we see buildings with

 7    some holes on the walls, and the question that Mr. Karnavas is asking you

 8    is the following and I asked myself that same question when I looked at

 9    the video.  How could somebody know what happened -- how can somebody make

10    a distinction between what was caused by the Serbs and what was caused by

11    the Croats and the Muslims.  The question is an excellent one, since that

12    is also the question that I asked myself.  You were in a city.  Combats

13    took place in that city with the Serbs as well, so how can you, you are an

14    authority of course, how can you make the distinction as to who did what

15    to whom?

16            THE WITNESS:  I would have to think about that for a while because

17    indeed the condition of the city was appalling when we entered it.  Our

18    Spanish friends, our colleagues who did a great deal of the ground work,

19    they pointed out to me and to others when they were -- when their task was

20    to brief us, they told us what area and amount of devastation had been --

21    had taken place, but they said, This is only partial, this is only

22    limited.  That's the best I can do, I'm afraid, sir.  I can't re-write

23    history on that subject or at all.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25            MR. KARNAVAS:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 26223

 1            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2            MR. KARNAVAS:

 3       Q.   You were asked again about Nova Bila.  I'm just touching --

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   -- a little bit.  My colleague will finish up on the cross

 6    tomorrow.  But -- now this was, I take it, your first time in Central

 7    Bosnia?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Okay.

10       A.   I think -- I'm sorry, I beg your pardon.  I think I made a visit

11    to Vitez at one point but there were very few visits on my part to Central

12    Bosnia.

13       Q.   But as I understand it your visit to Vitez had I think taken place

14    around August of 1993 if I'm not mistaken?

15       A.   A little bit earlier than that.  I can't remember exactly either.

16       Q.   Okay.  I'll find it here in a second but in any event:  Now you

17    say in your statement that this was a media circus, and this caught my

18    eye, and I noticed that before you corrected yourself you said it was

19    crass, that was the word that you used, in the way someone, whoever wrote

20    this statement out for you to sign, put those words down there for you to

21    adopt.  But was it your intention to adopt this phrase, that this was --

22    or this sentence that this was also a media circus?

23       A.   No, it certainly wasn't any part of my intent to do that.

24       Q.   Okay.  And I take it the situation as you say:  "My impression of

25    Nova Bila was that while it was not quite like Mostar it was still grim,

Page 26224

 1    impoverished and unhygienic."

 2       A.   Sorry, please could you say that again because I think I missed

 3    out on something.

 4       Q.   Paragraph 70 you say:  "My impression of Nova Bila was that while

 5    it was not quite like Mostar, it was still grim, impoverished and

 6    unhygienic -- improvised" I'm sorry --

 7       A.   Improvised, yes I'm sorry.  I've got it here "improvised and

 8    unhygienic."

 9       Q.   You stand by that?

10       A.   Otherwise it says the things that are in that paragraph.

11       Q.   And you stand by that?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   The situation was pretty bad?

14       A.   It was pretty bad.

15       Q.   And would it be fair to say that for the Bosnian Croats, that was

16    a concern, that essentially the other side, the Bosnian Muslims, were

17    allowing this situation to occur, and this is why your assistance was

18    being sought, to alleviate this situation?

19       A.   Well, it was to make it possible for people to return and live in

20    peace in their own hometown.

21            MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.  All right.  I think that that's all I have

22    for right now.  We reserve the rest of our time for tomorrow in keeping

23    with your earlier ruling my colleague -- and just I don't know if we have

24     -- I hope we'll have 30 seconds I would like to say something on the

25    record, Your Honour, but outside the witness's presence.  I don't think

Page 26225

 1    it's necessary for the witness to hear it.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You will be able to

 3    rest now.  The hearing is adjourned.  Tomorrow we will resume your hearing

 4    at quarter past 2.00, so you will have to come tomorrow at 2.15 p.m. and

 5    you are kindly requested not to have any contact with the Prosecution

 6    until then.  I would like to ask Mr. Usher to accompany you to the door.

 7            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9            Before I give the floor to Mr. Karnavas there for a few seconds, I

10    would like to read out two oral decisions which are urgent and which need

11    to be handed down.  One of them will be read out in open session and the

12    other one in private session.

13                          [The witness stands down]

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The oral decision to be read out

15    in open session relating to the 98 bis procedure.  The hearing of the 10th

16    of January, 2008, the Prosecution asked the Chamber to ask the Defence to

17    file a skeleton of its arguments that it will present orally pursuant to

18    Rule 98 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  The Defence teams

19    objected to this.  The Trial Chamber recalls that Rule 98 bis of the Rules

20    was amended to shorten the procedure.  Thus, the arguments of both parties

21    and the decision of the Chamber are from now onwards handed down orally.

22    As far as these three decisions pertaining to the Scheduling Order is

23    concerned, the Trial Chamber has clearly reminded the parties that the

24    arguments presented pursuant to Rule 98 bis can only be presented orally,

25    and the Trial Chamber will not allow any written submissions to be made on

Page 26226

 1    that count.

 2            The Prosecution has submitted no arguments that would justify this

 3    decision to be re-examined.  Therefore, the Trial Chamber dismisses the

 4    motion filed by the Prosecution.

 5            I would like now to move into private session so I can read out

 6    the second decision.

 7                          [Private session]

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Page 26227

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12                          [Open session]

13            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

15            MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just wanted to end the

16    day by making sure that no one left here with any misunderstandings.  It

17    is with great humility that I accept the Trial Chamber's decision

18    concerning Rule 46(A)(i), that's number one.  Number two, I will endeavour

19    in the future to rectify any shortcomings, and I do take on board the

20    Trial Chamber's observations.  It was never my intention to offend anyone.

21      In fact, I should say not in my defence but just by way of an

22    explanation at the end of the cross, I did exchange pleasantries with the

23    witness, but I do fully understand the Trial Chamber's concerns and it

24    certainly was not my intention at any point in time to offend Judge

25    Trechsel, nor do I wish to leave the impression that either I or Dr. Prlic

Page 26229

 1    in any way are concerned that at the end of the day we will -- any member

 2    of the Bench will do anything less than their level best to ensure that

 3    everybody receives a fair trial, that's not just the accused but also the

 4    Prosecution.

 5            And again my deepest apologies to Judge Trechsel if, indeed, I

 6    have offended you, that was not my intention.  And again, I will endeavour

 7    in the future to work on my shortcomings, and thank you for being gracious

 8    enough to point them out to me.  Thank you very much.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you,

10    Mr. Karnavas for your kind words.

11            As far as I'm concerned, what I would like in 2008 is for the

12    hearings to unfold in the best atmosphere possible.  The purpose of the

13    Bench is to try to understand what has happened during these years, 1992,

14    1993, based on evidence which both parties develop, the Prosecution and

15    the Defence.  The Trial Chamber have to see through what is being

16    presented without there being any drama, any unrest.  What we are only

17    interested in is seeking the truth, whatever the truth may be.  So I'm

18    fully aware of the fact that everybody will do their best to make sure

19    that we have a pleasant atmosphere in the courtroom and that each and

20    everyone, if we are as we are in an adversarial system, that each and

21    everyone can answer the question, put the question, cross-examine, and

22    raise any uncertainties or doubts that he or she may have.  And it is with

23    that in mind that I am fully convinced that everybody will tow the line

24    this year and I think -- I am sure that this trial will unfold in the best

25    conditions possible.

Page 26230

 1            The trial has been ongoing for two years now already, and we might

 2    still be together for the next two years because if the Defence has the

 3    same time as the Prosecution this is what will happen.  So let's all try

 4    to make sure that all of this unfolds in the best possible atmosphere.

 5            I wish you a nice evening, for, as you know, we shall resume

 6    tomorrow at a quarter past 2.00.

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.43 p.m.,

 8                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

 9                          January, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.

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