1 Thursday, 17 January 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic et al.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.
10 Today we are Thursday, the 17th of January, 2008. I would like to
11 greet all the representatives of the Prosecution, Defence counsel, the
12 accused, as well as all the people assisting us.
13 Now, we shall begin by finishing the cross-examination of the
14 witness. When the witness leaves, the Trial Chamber will hand down oral
15 decisions, important oral decisions, after having heard the Prosecutor
16 prior to that on one of its oral decisions, but we will do this after the
17 witness has finished testifying. The -- we shall resume the
18 cross-examination. It's Mr. Praljak's Defence counsel who is going to
19 resume, after which Ms. Alaburic will take the floor.
20 I'd like to give the registrar for four IC numbers.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, four lists of documents have been
22 tendered through Witness Cedric Thornberry. Prosecution list will become
23 Exhibit IC 780. Stojic Defence list will become Exhibit IC 781. Praljak
24 Defence list will become Exhibit IC 782. And Petkovic Defence exhibit --
25 list will become Exhibit IC 783.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 WITNESS: KEMAL LIKIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.
8 I shall give the floor to General Praljak's counsel, who has a
9 number of questions to put to you.
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good
11 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom, especially to Their Honours, and
12 everybody in and around the courtroom.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. We speak the same
15 language, you and I, so you don't have to wait for an interpretation. You
16 understand me straight away. But please make short breaks between my
17 question and your answer to facilitate the work of the interpreters so
18 that everybody in the courtroom can follow us. So we'll try and speak
19 slowly and make pauses in between.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Now, could the usher provide the
21 witness with a folder that we provided yesterday, and could the usher
22 while he's there, while he's on his feet -- well, there's one document
23 there in that folder. For the record it is document P 08461. It is a
24 document signed by Mesinja [phoen] Mahmutovic from your own town. It was
25 compiled on the 22nd of February, 1994. Have you opened the document?
1 For the record, the document was used yesterday by the Prosecutor.
2 [In English] I would kindly ask usher to assist the witness. Obviously
3 there is some problem.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Now you have the document, which you saw
5 yesterday; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'd just like to ask you the following with respect to that
8 document: The person under number 15, it says Likic Medina, Sulejman,
9 father's name, also was killed, and yesterday you said she was a fighter.
10 Now, other people need not understand this, but judging by the name,
11 that's a female. It's a woman, is it not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, in the days before the conflict, did she wear a camouflage
15 A. She wore a camouflage jacket because she was a cook in the kitchen
16 cooking for the army in Stupni Do.
17 Q. All right. And her status was the status of fighter; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Combatant?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, let's clear something else up linked to that.
22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Does the witness have the
23 Prosecution folder in front of him? If not, could the usher help us out
24 here, please. [In English] In Prosecution folder the document number
25 P 08659. 8659. It should be there. Okay. Then if it isn't, I would
1 kindly ask you to take mine and put it on ELMO.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, have you seen the document?
3 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I have.
4 Q. Is from the records of dead, death certificate. Now, is that the
5 same person that we saw in the list in the previous document under number
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. KOVACIC: Mr. Usher, I will not need any more this document.
10 Thank you.
11 I'd like to show a video now Your Honours, the transcript of which
12 is under 3D 01138, and the video itself has the following number:
13 P 05522. We received the video from the Prosecution, and as we had a
14 break between yesterday and today, we were able to take this out of the
15 documentation. And the Prosecution devoted quite a lot of time showing
16 the photographs of the trenches around Stupni Do, so I think the best
17 thing would be to see a video of those trenches so that we can gain a
18 complete picture.
19 May we have the video shown, please.
20 [Videotape played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The village of Stupni Do itself was
22 long prepared for the execution of this criminal plan. How else could one
23 explain the existence of a significant number of well fortified trenches
24 wherefrom one has a grandstand view of Vares.
25 "These bunkers along with the Bogos elevation encircle the
1 village of Stupni Do which from this vantage point does not look as
2 harmless as one wants to show, unfortunately, even in many world
4 "The distribution of bunkers and trenches was such that the
5 Croatian locations under the elevation, as well as the village itself,
6 could be under undisturbed fire.
7 "Here is one of the houses which was a bunker itself. The facade
8 says it all.
9 "Close to the house was one of the best fortified trenches which
10 gives a view of Majdan Vares.
11 "From the other side of the same elevation is the Croatian
12 village of Mir. And right next to it is the Catholic cemetery.
13 "And that's a Croatian house there that was destroyed in the heavy
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel. Microphone.
16 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry.
17 Q. [Interpretation] The video continues, but there is no more footage
18 showing the trenches around Stupni Do and Bogos, so I don't think we need
19 play it any further. We received the video from the Prosecution, I
20 repeat, and as far as I can see from the material attached, we can see
21 that they received it previously from the government of
23 Now, Witness, I have one question for you. You've seen this
24 video. Do you happen to have seen that footage on television some time
1 A. No, I've never seen it.
2 Q. Well, yesterday there was quite a lot of discussion during your
3 testimony about that, and you were shown photographs, and on the
4 photographs you indicated the trenches that you were able to see.
5 Now that you've seen the video, are those the same trenches that
6 we talked about yesterday?
7 A. I didn't recognise anything there, to be quite frank. I didn't
8 recognise anything. The trench that you could see, Vares Majdan, well,
9 there's one at Bogos -- well, I don't know. You can't see it from this
10 vantage point, from Vares Majdan.
11 Q. All right. Now, not to waste time, there were a number of
12 photographs from Bogos and the other side down towards the village. Did
13 you recognise the village as being your own village?
14 A. Well, to be quite frank, I didn't recognise it as being my
15 village. It's not quite clear to me. I didn't recognise the houses. I
16 looked at the photograph, but the only thing that I could recognise was
17 the house next to the cemetery, Mahmutovic Dervis, and the former shop
18 where Mir and Stupni Do were supplied with goods.
19 Q. So can I put it this way: You say you didn't recognise it. So
20 it's a matter of human perception. Do you state that they are not
21 photographs of Stupni Do and the surrounding parts and the trenches around
22 Stupni Do, including Bogos hill? Can you say no, that is not it, or is
23 what you're saying, "I just can't recognise it"? There's a difference
24 there, you know.
25 A. To be quite frank, I can't recognise any of it.
1 Q. Except for the two features that you told us of a moment ago.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you recognise those facilities and features as belonging to
4 your village?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I don't think there's any point in showing the video again, Your
7 Honours. I think what we've shown is sufficient. I can't speak of
8 authenticity but I do believe in its authenticity because as I say the
9 material was provided to us by the Prosecution and the Prosecution got it
10 from the BH government, so it's certainly authentic. And from our own
11 knowledge and information, members of our team were in Stupni Do, they
12 toured the area and were quite certain that that is what it depicts.
13 I would like to thank the witness. I have no further questions,
14 but I would like to table a request now to the Trial Chamber in keeping
15 with their previous decision of the 10th of May last year to allow General
16 Praljak to ask several questions. My arguments in favour of that are the
17 same as for Witness Mahmutovic of the 12th of December last year. If need
18 be I can repeat that, but I don't want to waste time unless you
19 specifically ask me to go and explain again.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before General Praljak puts
21 questions, I have a question to put to you which is in line with this
22 video, we can, if need be, all watch again. This video shows that there
23 is, at the least, one trenches -- one trench that overlooks Vares Majdan,
24 and just alongside it there is a house. This house, according to the
25 video, was also a bunker.
1 On watching the video, I say to myself that when you are standing
2 in this trench Vares Majdan is two or three kilometres away as the crow
3 flies, and therefore where this trench is positioned one has a strategic
4 overview. So are you challenging that there is a trench there, or are you
5 not challenging it?
6 If you like, we can watch the video again. It's a very short one.
7 I think the best would be to display it again, please. Can we display
8 the video again, please. So we shall look at it again. So have a close
9 look at this.
10 [Videotape played].
11 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The village of Stupni Do itself was
12 long prepared for the execution of this criminal plan. How else could one
13 explain the existence of significant number of well-fortified trenches
14 where from one has a grandstand view of Vares.
15 "These bunkers along with Bogos elevation encircled the village
16 of Stupni Do, which from this point of view does not look as harmless as
17 one wants to show, unfortunately, even in many international newspapers.
18 "The arrangement of bunkers and trenches was such that the
19 Croatian locations under the elevation, as well as the village itself,
20 could be under constant fire.
21 "This is one of the houses that was itself a bunker. This facade
22 says it all.
23 "Close to the house there is one of the best fortified trenches
24 which commands a view of Majdan Vares.
25 "On the other side of the same elevation there is a Croatian
1 village Mir, and next to it the Catholic graveyard."
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, sir, we've just seen the
3 video again. We've seen a trench, and from this trench we can see Vares
4 Majdan directly, and at one stage the camera is zooming in, and you can
5 just about see the windows of the houses. Are you challenging -- are you
6 challenging this? What do you have to say to that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no houses close to our
8 trenches. The trench that I just saw from which you could see Vares
9 Majdan, that was the trench on the top of Borova Glava. Partly it faced
10 Vares Majdan, and partly it faced the Nisic plateau. As for the other
11 trenches, I'm not familiar with any of them.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you've identified
13 a trench that overlooks Vares Majdan. So you can confirm that there was a
14 trench there, but on the other hand you say you do not recognise the other
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm saying is that there was a
17 trench at Borova Glava locality which I have just recognise, and you could
18 see Vares Majdan from there. But the closest house is more than 200
19 metres away. The houses that I saw in the footage was the house of Halid
20 Likic, and there was no trench there ever. There was just the house which
21 still stands there today, and it hasn't been refurbished. Next to it is a
22 pathway or a road, and there are no trenches anywhere near that.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The trench at Borova Glava, when
24 the village was attacked were there ABiH soldiers in this trench?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were they killed? Were they
2 detained? Did they run away? What happened with the men in this trench?
3 A. As far as I know, and as far as from what I heard, I did not see
4 anything myself because I wasn't there, nobody was killed in that trench.
5 They just had to abandon the trenches. They had to flee. I don't know
6 what -- how else to put that. We're talking about this trench on Borova
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 General Praljak -- yes, Mr. Flynn.
10 MR. FLYNN: Just one matter, Mr. President if I may ask
11 Mr. Kovacic just on a point of information. The transcript --
12 Mr. Kovacic. I'm sorry. The transcript that accompanied the video might
13 be regarded as somewhat Partisan from the Croat standpoint of view. May I
14 ask was this transcript -- is this an assessment of the Defence, the
15 transcript that accompanied the video, or is this a transcript that
16 accompanied the original video coming from the BiH? I have never seen the
17 video before and that's why I ask.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, in the documents
19 you gave us a translation in English of what seems to accompany the -- the
20 video. So the translation, is this the translation of the comments by the
21 journalist that can be heard on the video, or does it come from somewhere
22 else? Please?
23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the folder that you
24 have just mentioned, there are two documents. One is a surrogate
25 [indiscernible] videos, and that is a Prosecutor's document that
1 accompanies the video. This is document that we received together with
2 the video, and that is in e-court. It arises from that document where the
3 video comes from, and I base my assumption that the Prosecutor provided us
4 with a video on that document and the Prosecution received it from the
5 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 The other document, 3D 018, and with the words "Office
7 translation" in the right-hand corner, this is what my staff transcribed
8 earlier this morning. They just transcribed a comment of the anchor that
9 is heard on the video. I'm not claiming that this is a perfect
10 translation, but what we could hear, what we could transcribe we did in
11 good faith, and while the witness was watching the video I could hear the
12 interpreters to -- who were trying to interpret from the video footage,
13 and this is more or less the same what we did.
14 And the video itself was disclosed to us by the Prosecution
15 according to Rule 65, and that's it. And I don't know anything else about
16 its origin. I accept bona fides that this is material that -- that
17 originates from the Prosecution as the material that originates from the
18 former Yugoslavia and that it is credible because they were provided with
19 the governments of the former Yugoslavia.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, you should know these
21 documents since it is the Office of the Prosecutor who disclosed it to the
22 Defence. And when you take a look at the second document video, there are
23 in fact -- there are two different documents, and what we've just seen
24 should be the second video which was shot by the Kiseljak television, and
25 it is indicated that it was a propaganda in favour of the HVO. There
1 should also be interviews with Croats expelled from villages around Vares.
2 This video seems to be much longer than the clip that we've just seen
3 since it's indicated here that there are also interviews of Croats. But
4 the document also indicates that it is something coming from the Kiseljak
6 MR. FLYNN: I had seen that and I was just inquiring as to whether
7 or not the -- the short summary which accompanied the video was an extract
8 from that or was it an assessment made by the Defence themselves, but I
9 think I'm clear on the point now.
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just for the record I
11 believe that there may have been a misunderstanding here. The video
12 contains other things, but according to my modest opinion for this witness
13 I have used only one part of the video. There are other stories in there
14 that are not necessarily connected, and the transcript that we provided
15 with the document, 3D 01138. It says here that what we're showing is the
16 part of the footage between 09.25 and 12.30.
17 The words that you heard were transcribed by our team. This is
18 what we wanted to show. We denoted the time on the video as the time that
19 we want to use with this witness. The Prosecutor can use this part or any
20 other parts, and they are more than welcome to use whatever they want to
21 use. I've selected this part because it's relevant for the witness that
22 we are -- we see here today.
23 Yesterday the witness spoke about the trenches. He was provided
24 with the photos of the trenches, and we all know from experience that the
25 information that we receive based on photos, video differ from what can be
1 seen on the ground, and that's what I wanted to obtain, the identification
2 of those trenches.
3 If my learned friend has problems with the authenticity of this
4 material, I appreciate that, but I was not the one who provided the video
5 to them. It was the other way around.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just to have no doubts in the ear. The part that
8 we have been shown is a part of the second footage that is mentioned here;
9 is that correct?
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is one of the same
11 video, but it is somewhat longer and I have only taken one excerpt, and in
12 the description surrogate sheet you can see that there are different
13 parts. I have concentrated just on one part that was relevant for this
14 witness, but it's all one video footage, one long video footage from which
15 I just took one part.
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That is clear to me. What I'm referring to is
17 that the document mentions, first in a small paragraph, first footage, and
18 then a longer paragraph, second footage. The second footage here is
19 accompanied by certain comments which are, as it seems, not related to the
20 first footage, and I just wanted to make sure, and it is likely because
21 the first footage only seems to be in the morgue, that it is an excerpt of
22 the -- of what is here called "Second footage 05:51 to 32:20.
23 Thank you very much.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the counsel.
25 Microphone for the counsel.
1 MR. KOVACIC: Sorry, sorry very much. [Interpretation] Now I
2 understand your question. You can see from the surrogate sheet that these
3 are two video footages. We did not touch their first one. We did not use
4 the first one. We used the second one and only one part from the second
5 video that you have just seen.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And to be entirely clear, the
7 transcript in your document 3D 1138 is the Croatian version of the
8 comments made by the journalist, and the English version, that is the
9 translation of such comments, because it starts in English with "The
10 village of Stupni Do itself," and then it continues from there.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] This is our office of translation.
13 This is not a CLSS translation. If anybody contests our office
14 translation, I'm going to send it to CLSS for official translation, but I
15 don't see the point. This is just a courtesy for others to be able to
16 follow. And we heard all these words in Croatian. They have been
17 translated by our office.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 General Praljak to conclude.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, please limit yourself
23 to technical questions, military questions, but you know this already.
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It goes without saying that
25 I should do that.
1 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Likic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. You will appreciate that this Court needs to investigate certain
5 details. I appreciate your family tragedy, and I don't wish in any way
6 or form to hurt your feelings by my questions. However, in order to
7 clarify the whole situation, some questions need to be asked and they will
8 be of military and technical and mathematical nature.
9 First of all, I would like the usher to put this photo in front of
10 Mr. Likic in order to round off this story about Vares Majdan and the
11 trenches that were facing it.
12 This is a photo that you already saw yesterday. I marked it by
13 number 4. Can you please put it on the ELMO, and we will define certain
14 things based on this photo.
15 Yesterday in this photo, in its part that depicts your village and
16 is facing Vares Majdan, you showed us bunkers on -- into parts in the left
17 and in the right. Did I -- do my markings match your marks as you put
18 them in the photo yesterday?
19 A. How shall I call this? The sentry point has to be moved a bit
20 further down toward the so-called Botuk [phoen], and as for the X marking
21 this is Stijencica, and this is correct. This is the entrance from
23 Q. Could you please take the pen and mark the exact positions and
24 correct where I was wrong. Please mark the exact places where the
25 trenches were, where the bunkers were.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Put a circle around that and number 1 next to that circle.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And also mark the second bunker, the second trench, the place
5 where they were.
6 A. It's in the same place.
7 Q. Can you please put a number 2 next to that.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And at the right bottom side of the picture where you see Vares
10 Majdan, can you please put a number 3 next to that.
11 A. [Marks].
12 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. This is Vares Majdan, isn't it?
13 Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. Can you please put the full photo on the ELMO. Thank you.
15 Okay. This is very similar.
16 In the previous footage we saw two bunkers. One was made of wood,
17 and the other one also contained sandbags or earth bags. It was well
18 fortified, wasn't it? The thing that you marked by number 2, is that
19 Borova Glava?
20 A. No, this is Stijencica.
21 Q. Stijencica?
22 A. Towards Pajtov Han, i.e., towards Prnjavor.
23 Q. Very well, then. Yes. And where then would be Borova Glava
24 according to you? Where is the Borova Glava a trench that you spoke about
25 a little while ago, you mentioned it?
1 A. You can't see it in this photo but you can -- it would be towards
2 me but in a different photo.
3 Q. Can you place an arrow pointing in the direction of Borova Glava,
5 We will try and talk more slowly and try not to overlap, because
6 the interpreters cannot follow.
7 My question is this: Can you please put an arrow on the photo in
8 the direction of Borova Glava?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Mr. Likic, I have here in front of me the trenches around the
11 village of Stupni Do, so show P 09399. 9399.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you've just shown trenches
13 number 1, trench number 2, and number 3, which is the Vares village. In
14 the middle of the photograph we can see your own village covered in snow.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. So the village is in the
17 middle of the photograph. Here is my question: When the HVO troops
18 attacked to take those two trenches, from which direction did they come?
19 Did they arrive from Vares, number 3, or did they come crossing the
20 village? Do you have any information on this?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I can tell you. This
22 trench, number 1, Potok, as it was called, the HVO soldiers arrived there
23 by the road straight from Vares Majdan to the village of Stupni Do.
24 Across, I mean. There's a road connecting the straight and one round
1 Now, when the soldiers took Bogos hill, they went down the
2 left-hand side and took the one where the arrow is, and then there's a
3 hamlet lower down where they killed the people I said they'd killed
4 yesterday, those ten people.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
7 Q. As we'll need this later on, would you please mark that place that
8 you've just told us about, Prica Do, where as you say these ten people
9 were killed. You can probably see that very well there, so where is that
10 Do and where are those houses?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you. Put a number 4 there then, please.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And as I read in your statement, you went there at a certain point
15 in time, and from there you went to your own house. So could you mark in
16 your house now.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And put a number 5 there, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you. May we put the date on the photograph and have the
21 witness's signature and then an IC number, please.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please write your
23 initials on the photograph, Witness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Or your name.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have a number
3 for that photograph, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the photograph will become Exhibit
5 IC 784.
6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Likic, can we agree on a military question now. According to
8 what we've seen on this photograph and the other photographs, the bunkers
9 that you marked on the other photographs previously, whether the trenches
10 around the village were made in a circle. That is to say they encircled
11 the village along the possible axes of attack. Would that be correct?
12 A. All the trenches around the village were in a circle surrounded
13 with Potok, Stijencica, Bogos, Do, Borova Glava, Raskrsce, and Bradica.
14 Q. Thank you. So we can agree that it was a circular defence for the
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now I'd like to go through exactly what you -- the way you moved
18 because that wasn't done properly. The night before the attack onwards.
19 So I'm going to ask you simple questions, and I hope to receive simple
20 answers from you.
21 The document, the P document that I had up is P 09399 and --
22 Witness, that's the documents that you made the markings on; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you've signed it, and you agree that that's how the trenches
1 were situated?
2 A. Yes. And that's what the photograph shows.
3 Q. Thank you. Now we'll take it slowly. In the night between the
4 22nd and the 23rd of October, 1993, you stood guard at the locality that
5 you indicated to us.
6 A. Borova Glava.
7 Q. Borova Glava. Yes. Right. Now, on the 23rd, at 7.15, you were
8 sitting in your house waiting for a cup of coffee when the attack started;
9 is that right?
10 A. The attack began -- I didn't have a watch, but it began at around
11 8.00 or maybe five minutes past 8.00 in the morning.
12 Q. All right. Now, at that time you took up your weapon and went
13 towards Bogos hill, a place called Ravasnica, and you indicated that to us
14 on an earlier photograph. Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. We don't have to repeat that then. You then say in your
17 statement, the statement you gave, that there were 11 soldiers there; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes. Ten or 11 is what I said.
20 Q. Right. And then you went on to say that the fighting lasted an
21 hour and a half?
22 A. I think I said approximately. I didn't have a watch. Let me
23 repeat again. I don't know exactly how long it went on for. I was
24 speaking approximately because I didn't have a watch on my arm.
25 Q. Well, two and a half hours or three hours, it's not important.
1 Roughly, you say.
2 Now, then after two and a half, three hours, your wife Kada came;
3 is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. After that, in your statement you say that after that time, and
6 that is to be found on page 4 of the text that I have -- so with two women
7 that makes the number of people up to 13. And then you say that some
8 people left you at that time, and the people who were left was you,
9 Vejsil, Nihad, Enver, and Suvaid, and two women, that they stayed in
10 Ravnica; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. After that five of the 11 left, and you say they left to defend
13 the village?
14 A. I said that two or three soldiers ran to the village.
15 Q. Mr. Likic, I'm just counting. You say there were 11 plus two
16 women. That makes it 13. Then you say you Vejsil, Nihad, Enver, and
17 Suvaid stayed, and that makes it six men and two women. So five people.
18 And then you go on to say: "And the rest went down to the village to
19 defend their families." That's what it says in the statement?
20 A. Yes, that's true, but it needn't mean three because I wasn't -- I
21 thought I could be killed any moment, so I wasn't fully aware of what was
22 going on.
23 Q. That's why we're speaking -- talking slowly here and taking it
24 step-by-step. But anyway, in this statement you say that these five
25 people went to the village to defend their families. Does that mean that
1 they took their rifles with them, the rifles they had?
2 A. Let me explain. Your Honours, quite frankly and sincerely, we as
3 soldiers in Stupni Do only had 28 barrels. However, there were 11 of us
4 up there. So those 11 perhaps only had six weapons. Just six. You
5 understand that? Maybe it was even five. And so if anyone were to be
6 killed or wounded, then we went to take over the weapons and to continue
7 shooting if there was any ammunition left. So that, friend, is what
8 happened, how things were. And I state quite honestly that that's what it
9 was, but we did not all of us, all 11 of us, have weapons.
10 Q. Mr. Likic, I don't want to contradict you. I wasn't there at all.
11 I'm just trying on the basis of the statement to reconstruct what happened
12 together with all the other people here in the courtroom. So I'm just
13 asking you a logical question. If five people, according to your
14 statement, you say went to defend their families, would you not ask the
15 same question? If they were going to defend their families then probably
16 they have weapons with them. That's a simple question?
17 A. Of those five there might have just been one or two weapons. And
18 I repeat that. And they went down to the village. They rushed down to
19 the village. It doesn't mean that they all had weapons. And we did
20 not -- they did not all have weapons. I told you exactly and frankly how
21 many weapons we actually did have.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, we need a specific answer
23 to this -- to that question. When your wife came to see you and to tell
24 you that they were asking you to surrender, it means that the HVO was
25 already in the village. So there were HVO fighters, armed men, in the
1 village. Somebody comes and asks you to surrender. You're telling
2 General Praljak then five men out of the 11 who were with you went to the
3 village. Were they carrying weapons or not? That's the question.
4 Because if they leave with a weapon, it means that there will be some
5 shooting, because of course the other men in the village will see armed
6 soldiers coming towards them and they might shoot at them.
7 So are you telling us that they went to the village to defend --
8 they could defend even without having their weapons with them at that
9 time? So can you remember? Did they have weapons when they left or not?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that they might have one or
11 two rifles, but not all of them had rifles. They mostly went to see their
12 families to see what had happened to them, those that hailed from the
13 village itself.
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Likic, all right. Please do not think that I'm trying to put
16 words into your mouth. I am just asking questions based on which -- on
17 what you stated. These people that ran into the village to defend it,
18 according to you and had one or two or I don't know how many rifles, did
19 they wear military uniforms, at least partly? Did some of them wear
20 trousers or blouses or boots? Did they have parts of uniforms on them?
21 A. Yes. They looked very colourful. Some had normal clothes, some
22 had trousers. They did not all have the whole uniform as the army would.
23 Q. In your statement you say that those of you who stayed went to
24 Budozelj to inform the BH army to send help; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Further on you stated that later on four men had left you, Enver,
2 Nermin, Suvaid, and Harad [phoen], and they went to Budozelj; is that
4 A. Yes. Three men left us, not four. Two stayed with me together
5 with two women.
6 Q. Very well. You said four, and I'm just asking. Now you're saying
8 A. The numbers don't have to match. It was really a lot of the
9 psychosis in the air. That's why I'm not sure about the numbers.
10 Q. I know, sir, how it looks. That's why we're going through things
11 slowly taking things one at a time. Dzafer Rasim and Fadil Likic stayed
12 with you; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you and Kemal Likic [as interpreted] stayed on together with
15 two women; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After that you ran across a clearing. You were shot at, and as
18 for the two women they were not shot at. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On same day, at 19.45 on the 23rd of October, 1993, at 19.45 hours
21 you arrived at Pecina?
22 A. Yes. This was the so-called Stijene above Pajtov Han.
23 Q. At 21.30 hours or thereabouts you skirted Bogos; is that correct?
24 And you arrived at Pajtov Han on the 24th of October, 1993, approximately
25 around 2.00 after midnight; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Fadil Likic also left you at the time and went to Budozelj?
3 A. He left us on the following night, not on that night. You can
4 read it in my statement that it was on the following night.
5 Q. Dzafer Rasim stayed together with you and with the two women; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And now let's talk about that night and about Monday the 25th
9 October 1993 when you started walking towards the village to see what had
10 happened. You were hungry. You were thirsty.
11 A. I apologise. Can you repeat the date?
12 Q. It was Monday.
13 A. Yes. Monday, the 25th of October.
14 Q. Was it at around 8.00 in the morning?
15 A. Yes, that's when we left Stijene and started walking towards our
17 Q. Very well. And you arrived in your own village around 11.00 and
18 30 [as interpreted]?
19 A. No. It was not in the village but above the village.
20 Q. You arrived in Prica Do that we marked?
21 A. Even further from Prica Do. Here, thereabouts.
22 Q. In Krcevine; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's what is known as Krcevine.
24 Q. Krcevine, Prica Do?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And this is where you stayed to see what had happened in the
2 village. You observed the situation; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then you observed people coming into the village and this is
5 something that is not of any interest to me. What I would like to hear
6 from you is this: Did you see that on 25th of October, the day when you
7 observed the village, an UNPROFOR vehicle entered the village carrying
8 Mr. Martin and Ivica Rajic; did you notice that from the place where you
10 A. No I didn't.
11 Q. Very well, then you did not notice anything on the 25th. And now
12 towards the end of the day, we're talking about Monday, when it was
13 already getting dark the had sun set as you said, you arrived at your
14 house; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it was already dark when I arrived at my house.
16 Q. Very well then. And now it says Rasim stayed outside and waited
17 for me; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. He stayed above my house.
19 Q. And you entered the house?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you say that you found something that looked like a body that
22 was lying on -- on its stomach; is that correct?
23 A. I found three women's bodies.
24 Q. Hold on. Hold on. You will find that later. First you found
25 something that looked like a body, and I'm quoting your own statement. "I
1 came upon something that looked like a body that was lying on its stomach.
2 I saw that it was a charred and some pieces of meat were hanging from its
3 flanks." Please. I went numb immediately and I thought that could be the
4 body of my own son Adis."
5 And you go on and say I decided to carry the body and bury it in
6 the nearby Muslim cemetery.
7 Now I would like to hear from you this: Did you find this body in
8 the house?
9 A. I found this body as I was approaching the house and the pavement
10 above the house.
11 Q. Very well then. And this was the body of Merima Likic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You say that the body was outside of the house on the pavement.
14 A. Yes. On the -- next to the pavement if you know where the
15 pavement is.
16 Q. Yes I do. Thank you. And she was completely burned but you
17 recognised the stockings and you could tell that it might have been Merima
18 Likic; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then you entered the house --
21 A. I entered the cellar.
22 Q. The cellar. And you saw the bodies of Nevzeta and Hatidza and
23 Medina in the pit that you used to store potatoes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You say here that you wanted to bury the body of Merima Likic in
1 the nearby cemetery. Did you do that?
2 A. Yes. At first I thought when I saw the body -- actually, when the
3 saw the women's stockings, before that I thought that this was the body of
4 my son that was killed not far from there.
5 Q. But when you saw that this was a woman, you did not bury the body.
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. The late Mrs. Medina is the same Medina who was a member of the
8 BiH army. She was a soldier of the BH army, wasn't she?
9 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't understand it.
10 Q. In the pit there were three bodies.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The Medina whom you saw, was she wearing a camouflage uniform, and
13 was she a member the BiH army?
14 A. Medina Likic only had a military vest on her body, nothing else.
15 She had been a member of the BH army because she was the main cook who
16 prepared lunches for the BiH army.
17 Q. Thank you very much. And let's finish with this. On the 25th, in
18 the evening when you saw when you saw what you saw, you say that you went
19 away from the place, that you left the place, and that in the morning on
20 the 26th, and now we're talking about Tuesday, 26th of October, 1993, at
21 6.00 in the morning, UNPROFOR received you because they had been inviting
22 people to approach them, and they took you to the free territory of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In the first statement that you provided, to the OTP on the 16th
1 of March -- I apologise. The statement was provided in 1996. In the
2 second statement that you provided in 1998, I believe in 1998, actually,
3 1998, you now -- actually on the 28th of October, 1998, you now add --
4 added something to what you'd seen in your cellar, and you say that the
5 three persons that you saw in your cellar had been massacred. Hatidza had
6 her throat slit and her left breast had been cut off.
7 "When I grabbed Nevezta's head to lift her head I could see that
8 her left side of the face had been massacred, and chiseled. Medina looked
9 like as if she had been sleeping. I did not notice any wounds of her --
10 on her body simply because I didn't want to touch her."
11 My first question sir is this: How come did you not say all that
12 in your first statement? How come you did not describe things as
13 precisely as that? Why do your first statement and the second statement
14 different in these very gruesome but very important details?
15 A. Can you please repeat the first statement? What year was that?
16 Q. In 1996 you only said that you saw three bodies. In your first
17 statement in 1996 you say: "I descended into the cellar of my house that
18 had been burnt completely."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. "I lit a lighter and I saw Nevzeta, Hatidza and Medina's bodies in
21 the pit we used to store potatoes. There was a big red candle lying
22 beside the pit. There were wooden planks and some sacks inside the dead
23 cellar. I pushed them aside thinking or hoping into my son might be
24 hiding behind them, but it was a vein effort and you started looking for
25 bread and so on and so forth. That's the first statement.
1 The second statement is the statement that says this: "Hatidza's
2 throat had been slit. She had been slaughtered. Her left bosom had been
3 cut off. Nevzeta's left face had been smashed," and you also added that
4 the red candle bore the markings of the HDZ and that it bored the word
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, I understand these are terrible details, gruesome details one
8 retains for their whole life, but I would like to know this: How come did
9 you not provide all these details in the first statement? Why your
10 description lacked all these details. How come that only your second
11 statement contained all those details?
12 A. Let me put it this way and be very frank: In the first statement
13 I said that there were three bodies; that's correct. That they had been
14 massacred, but I did not provide any details as to how they had been
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Praljak.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That they were killed. And in the
18 second statement I provided details. I said that they had been massacred
19 and that Hatidza's throat had been slit and her breast had been cut off.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. In the first statement I did not want to say all that because of
23 the neighbours that lived next door. That was the only reason, the only
24 reason. There was no other reason. I did not want to hurt their
25 feelings. I did not want to upset them again. Those were my neighbours,
1 my friends. Nevzeta was even my relative, my cousin's wife.
2 Q. Very well then. Thank you. Now I would like to know this: In
3 the second statement you say: "Three days later UNPROFOR found five more
4 bodies in the part of the house that I had not visited, and they had all
5 been charged -- they had all been charred, those bodies."
6 Tell me, please, according to everything that we know here in this
7 court UNPROFOR entered Stupni Do on the 26th of October, 1995. 1993 the
8 soldiers entered together with the journalists, the investigators, and the
9 civilian police of the United Nations entered Stupni Do, and they counted
10 heads in the village, and they made a video footage. In that video
11 footage one could see the three dead bodies that you mentioned, and we saw
12 this video footage several times. I can run it again for you.
13 And despite all my effort I did not see any signs of massacre on
14 those bodies as you describe it. We're not going to see the footage
15 again. Obviously we could. The footage depicts three bodies laying over
16 each other. I don't know whether anybody had thrown a grenade or not, but
17 what you're describing according with what I saw, I couldn't see any of
19 Since there is a video footage of the whole thing, is it possible
20 that at that moment you could not count the number of rifles that were
21 taken to the village? Is it also possible that you could not see the
22 bodies well? Medina was on top in -- wearing a uniform. How could you
23 see the other bodies lying beneath her if you had left them in the same
24 way you found them and in the same way that UNPROFOR found them when they
25 entered the village? Is it possible that in your condition, carrying just
1 a small cigarette lighter in your hands, could you maybe see the picture
2 differently? Maybe you could see things that had not happened, actually.
3 Is that possible? Is that a possibility?
4 A. May I answer now?
5 Q. Yes, of course.
6 A. Merima was lying to the right, to the right, like this. She
7 seemed to be sleeping. I didn't want to disturb her. I lifted Nevzeta up
8 by her hair and her body, her cheek was resting against the potatoes, and
9 Hatidza, I just moved and put her back and there was blood here. That's
10 what I did.
11 With a lighter, you know, it's dark, you have a lighter. So
12 that's what I was able to see, and that's what I said.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Likic. Now, in your statement you -- to the
14 Prosecutor, and you were up there, you said that you don't know whether
15 from your basement there was any shooting.
16 A. Well, how could I know when I wasn't there?
17 Q. So you can't testify about that. Perhaps one of those people --
18 Medina, perhaps, might have had a rifle and might have shot at someone
19 through the window in your basement. You can't know that, can you?
20 A. No, I don't know that, but I said earlier on that we didn't have
21 that many weapons for everybody to be -- to have a weapon to carry,
22 because there were 42 fighters and just 28 barrels.
23 Q. Well, the maths doesn't help us there, but you cannot know either
24 way --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have the feeling that you've
1 overstepped your time, so you need to conclude.
2 There's a question which you should have been asked that hasn't
3 been asked and which I shall put to you.
4 Your house, was it a house that was fortified in the cellar or
5 not? In other words, had you fortified in some manner the cellar of your
6 house or hadn't you done anything about it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't do anything. It's a
8 basement that was made to keep your winter provisions in just with an
9 entrance. And there's nothing else. There was the basement for the
10 winter preserves, and the upper part where we lived with just with a
11 partition wall.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To your knowledge a young woman
13 who was carry -- or wearing a camouflage uniform, who was cooking for the
14 ABiH unit, could this person perhaps have held a gun in her hand?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That person didn't have any weapon.
16 Please believe me when I say that. I was there. I know how many weapons
17 we had, and that particular person didn't have a rifle, a gun.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Two other women who were with
19 her, could they have had a rifle or not?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you repeat the question?
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that the woman who
24 cooked was carrying no weapons. What about these two other women who were
25 there? Could they have had a rifle?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And why could they have a rifle?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I wasn't there, so I don't
4 know. I can't say. I can just assume that they didn't have any, because
5 I know how many weapons we had.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Mr. Praljak, you will have to finish now.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be done
9 very quickly.
10 Q. In your statement, in two places you mention dum bullets and say
11 that you saw a member of the BH army who was killed with a -- and that he
12 had a large hole in his back, and you said that that was cause the by the
13 dum-dum bullets. And then in another place you say that you heard
14 somebody shooting in a trench using dum-dum bullets. Could you explain to
15 Their Honours what these dum-dum bullets are and what the difference is
16 when you shoot with an ordinary bullet and when dum-dum bullets are used?
17 A. Your Honours, I made the statement as it stands. However, in my
18 statement I said that I assume that Zejnil Mahmutovic, whom I found lying
19 on his stomach face down, had a large bloody hole on the back, so I assume
20 that he might have been killed by a dum-dum bullet because of this large
21 hole in his back.
22 Now, this other -- I heard these dum-dum bullets firing. Sort
23 of -- there's a shot once and then another shot later on. I'm not a
24 military expert to be able to explain this to you.
25 Q. All right. Thank you. That's not how dum-dum bullets work. They
1 enter the body and then explode and that's why they're dum-dum or
2 expanding bullets. They weren't available.
3 A. Well, I apologise then.
4 Q. When you waited to return to Stupni Do, you saw an HVO APC --
5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Your Honour, because of the
6 overlapping a sentence was omitted when the witness said yes, and I
7 apologise then when Praljak gave his opinion about the dum-dum bullets.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not a military expert, so I'm
9 not well-versed in different types of ammunition. I thought that that was
10 something else.
11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Yes. Thank you. Let's just summarise what you say you saw the
13 HVO had. They had an APC; right?
14 A. Yes. While I was until the Stijene locality for two nights, I
15 spent two nights there, you understand, the first night I wasn't able to
16 pull out between the HVO trenches and go towards free territory with the
17 women, so we went back. We returned and spent two days in the forest
18 looking at what was going on around us. To the left you have Bogos hill
19 and to the right you have Perun hill or, rather, the village of Planinica.
20 Now, in between there's the Vares Majdan road going on to Breza
21 and so forth, and the check-point was set up at the -- on the road to the
22 Han where the village -- where the road to Strijezovo Selo goes. The APC
23 which was made from a mining truck that I knew about because I earnt my
24 pension working in a mine in Vares, in Treskavac [phoen], it was a mining
25 truck that was covered in camouflage, and it went from Vares Majdan to
1 Pajtov Han to that check-point and back several times. We saw it go there
2 and back several times.
3 Now, the other trucks --
4 Q. Just a moment, please. That's something you saw. Now let me ask
5 you this: You also saw that an on a smaller truck --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You need to finish now, because
7 the Bench is getting somewhat impatient.
8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we just
9 note that the HVO, according to the witness's statement, an anti-aircraft
10 20-millimetre machine gun.
11 Q. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you also see on a large truck a large-calibre Bofors
14 anti-aircraft cannon?
15 A. Well, I'm not an expert. There was something like a machine-gun.
16 There were different types of weapons anyway.
17 Q. That's what I wanted to tell Your Honours. We saw that there were
18 170 men at one point and 140 at another point and that with weapons like
19 that you could blow-up the whole village because these weapons destroy all
20 the walls and everything. So it's important to know what the HVO had so
21 that we know how the operation evolved and whether there was any sense to
22 it or not.
23 Thank you, Mr. Likic. Thank you, Your Honours, for allowing me
24 the time to ask the questions.
25 A. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one question. I'm
2 surprised as far as military logic is concerned. A military operation
3 that aimed at taking control of Bogos and the village does not wish to
4 target the trenches and take control of these trenches. This is why I
5 would like to have your feeling about it even if you're not a high-ranking
6 officer like General Praljak.
7 In military terms, I don't understand thousand things happen
8 sequentially. So if you leave soldiers in a trench, if you go and send
9 out your wife to ask to surrender, supposing you were holding a mortar.
10 You could have caused a tremendous amount of damage on the -- other side,
11 the HVO troops. So why didn't they take control of all the trenches given
12 that one vehicle was equipped with an anti-aircraft -- 20-millimetre
13 anti-aircraft weapon? So how can you explain this to us?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can explain that. These
15 vehicles -- now, I didn't say whether they were the Bofors type as the man
16 said, or an anti-aircraft cannon or whatever. There were two weapons on
17 two trucks and Pajtov Han and Strijezevo were targeted and behind them
18 there were groups of soldiers at Vares Majdan and Planinica. They didn't
19 shoot at my village. It's a different hill, Perun hill, when I was at the
20 Stijene locality that's what I saw where I spent two nights and went back
21 on the third day, the Monday, up above the village.
22 Now, I didn't understand the last part of what you said. I didn't
23 understand your last question. Ah, yes, you asked about the mortar where
24 I was. Where I was, the village of Radionica. When the women came to me
25 there were no trenches. They had taken control of Bogos and we moved
1 towards Bogos to help our guards there and that's where we met. There
2 were no trenches there, no mortars there. And I heard that there was a
3 60-millimetre mortar in the village but I never saw it to be quite honest,
4 Your Honours, and I didn't hear when it was used either.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic to finish, even
6 though my colleague has just told me that it is time to have the break.
7 Ms. Alaburic, how many minutes do you need?
8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I think about 15
9 minutes if the witness can answer all my questions.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, we shall have a
11 20-minute break now.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.
15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Your Honour, Witness, I would like to greet you
18 and everybody in the courtroom. Mr. Likic, I would like to try and
19 explain a detail that you may remember and that you may also not be aware
20 of, and it concerns the basement in your house where the three women's
21 bodies were found.
22 In a document issued by UNPROFOR that we have already adopted in
23 evidence in this case, and I'm talking about document under number D 6978,
24 and I'm going to be referring to parts and the bullet point 3, a one in
25 this document issued by UNPROFOR, it says that in the basement ten bullet
1 cases of unknown calibre were found. It is also established that there
2 were two small-sized windows covered by sandbags. And in conclusion it is
3 stated that it is possible that this was a fortified facility from which
4 fire had been opened.
5 Tell me, please, did you notice bullet cases when you entered the
7 A. When I entered the basement there were no bullet cases. And as
8 for the sandbags, there were no sandbags on the windows. I am saying
9 again this is a small basement that was used for potatoes, and there were
10 no windows. There are no windows to this day.
11 Q. Very well. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how come that the
12 list of soldiers that were killed in Stupni Do that were shown to you by
13 my learned friend from the Prosecution says that the fighters were from
14 Dabravine. Do you remember that document or do you want me to show it to
15 you again to refresh your memory? This is document number P 8461 in the
16 Prosecutor's binder of documents. This is a document that you saw and
17 identified people who had the status of BiH soldiers.
18 A. You want me to explain?
19 Q. Yes. Can you explain why Dabravine of all places?
20 MR. FLYNN: Just for the point of clarification, this is in fact
21 entitled a list of residents killed in Stupni Do and not a list of
22 fighters. It happens that the witness did identify a number of the ABiH
23 members, BiH members in the list, but it's principally a list of
24 residents, and I think it would be a misdescription entered in the
25 record -- left in record described as a list of ABiH fighters.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the record, the list is
2 entitled "List of persons killed in Stupni Do in the municipality," and in
3 that list there is a column with civilians and soldiers.
4 Please proceed, Ms. Alaburic.
5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] There is no doubt that this
6 document also contains information about civilians, but what I'm
7 interested in at the moment is information about soldiers.
8 Q. In addition to the individuals whom you identified as BiH army
9 soldiers, there's also the entry Dabravine soldier. Why Dabravine?
10 A. Your Honours, I can explain, of course, why Dabravine fighter.
11 All the fighters that UNPROFOR located and found and that were taken to
12 the free territory and could not be buried in the village of Stupni Do
13 were buried in the village of Dabravine, and that's why it says a
14 Dabravine fighter denoting where the burial place was. This doesn't mean
15 that this person hailed from Dabravine.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you for this explanation. Tell me whether the
17 command post of the Vares Brigade of the BiH army was in Dabravine?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In Dabravine was it where the War Presidency of Vares was also
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Tell us, please, whether the commander of the BiH army unit in
23 Dabravine was Mr. Ekrem Mahmutovic.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the unit of the BiH army that was in Stupni Do, was it part of
1 that 322nd Brigade from Dabravine?
2 A. I suppose so. I really wouldn't know. This is not something that
3 I understand. I'm not an expert.
4 Q. You told us that the commander of this military unit in Stupni Do
5 was Mr. Himzo Likic and that he had been arrested some seven days prior to
6 the attack against Stupni Do. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please tell us who stood in for him as commander of the BH
9 army unit in Stupni Do?
10 A. Yes, I can. It was Suvaid Likic.
11 Q. Very well. As a member of the BH army, where did you receive your
12 meals? Did you receive meals in your own house or did you go to a common
14 A. We all received our meals in our own houses save for the times
15 when we were on the line. We received food that had been prepared
16 elsewhere. Our trenches were far away from our homes. That's why food
17 was brought to us.
18 Q. Mr. Likic, did you ever hear, as we did, that an order reached
19 Stupni Do from Dabravine on the 22nd of October, on the eve of the attack,
20 ordering that the village should be evacuated because of the expected HVO
21 attack? Did you ever hear a piece of information to that effect?
22 A. Your Honour, I've never heard any such thing.
23 Q. Did you ever hear that on the eve of the attack in the village of
24 Stupni Do the population held a meeting which was a meeting of the local
25 commune or the village council and that the villagers decided as to what
1 should be done, whether they should be mobilised, whether the Defence
2 should be organised, or whether they would possibly be evacuated? Did you
3 ever hear of that meeting?
4 A. No, I never heard of that meeting either.
5 Q. I would like to confront you with part of the testimony by
6 Mr. Husnija Mahmutovic who testified in this courtroom and said something
7 about the questions that I've just put to you. His statements are
8 contained in document number P 10015.
9 He told us that the villagers of Stupni Do had expected an HVO
10 attack because the brother of one of your neighbour, who was a Croat, had
11 arrived in the village and took out the entire family. Based on that
12 Husnija Mahmutovic and other witnesses from Stupni Do had concluded that
13 the HVO was preparing an attack on Stupni Do.
14 Are you familiar with the fact that Mr. Husnija Mahmutovic
16 A. Yes, but I heard that only later on when the attack had already
17 been finished.
18 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic went on to say that the village council was in
19 session and decided to mobilise all the population of the village and to
20 prepare them to defend the village.
21 You are saying that you are not aware of that meeting or of that
23 A. No, and I'm telling you honestly that I don't know.
24 Q. Mr. Mahmutovic went on to say that all the trenches that we have
25 seen these days had been completely arranged and some few -- a few
1 kilometres away from the village, that on the eve of the attack the
2 villagers inspected all the trenches, checked that everything was in
3 place, that they inspected the protection of the houses by sandbags, that
4 they had established whether the supplies of water were sufficient to
5 extinguish possible fires, that you had a short first-aid training, and
6 that they were prepared in that way they expected that attack but that in
7 principle they hoped that there would be no attack at all.
8 Are you familiar with any of the circumstances that I've just
9 mentioned to you?
10 A. No. I personally had a barrel of water by my house in case my
11 house caught fire, to be able to extinguish that fire.
12 Q. Mr. Likic, do you know that the BH army unit in Stupni Do had a
13 radio set that they could use to communicate with the command post in
15 A. I don't know that. I never saw any such thing. I was just an
16 ordinary soldier. I repeat, I just keep guard and then I would come home.
17 Q. Very well, then. You have spoken, if I understood you well, about
18 some members of the BH army who during the course of the attack abandoned
19 their positions in the trenches and they started moving towards the centre
20 of the village in order to either help their families or to defend them.
21 Is that correct? Do I understand your testimony correctly?
22 A. There were no trenches where I was save for the two trenches that
23 I marked next to the village, and only those people descended. They had
24 one or two rifles. They ran through the village in order to see where
25 their families were.
1 At that moment the village did -- was not set ablaze. The fire
2 started from my house towards the south.
3 Q. Very well. Is it true that there was an abandoned Serb house in
4 the village as well?
5 A. Yes. There -- there were ten Serb houses in the village. They
6 had left the village sometime in May. I can't remember the exact date.
7 And they went to the Serb territory. However, two Serbs remained in the
8 village of Puinsa [phoen] and Bebanrosovic [phoen] and they remained
9 living with us. Their wives were Croats. One was from Mir and the other
10 from Vares.
11 Q. For the time being I'm only interested in the Serb houses.
12 And with regard to the house that you defined as your own and
13 marked by number 5, where were the Serb houses that you've just mentioned?
14 I believe that you still have on the ELMO the photo that you can use.
15 A. I don't have it on the screen. I have it next to me.
16 Q. Now you have it on the screen as well. Can you please tell us and
17 show us the picture's on e-court. Can you please tell us where those Serb
18 houses were?
19 A. Yes, I can.
20 Q. Please do then.
21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please -- can the
22 usher please help the witness to show these houses on the monitor.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see a Serb house here.
24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Tell us, please.
1 A. You can't see a house here that was on the shortcut from Vares to
2 Majdan, and there was a Serb house here. And this is the second house.
3 Q. Very well.
4 A. The third house is here behind my own house. And in the centre of
5 the village there were two houses.
6 Q. This is enough.
7 A. And here above there are two more Serb houses.
8 Q. Yes. We've had enough of the Serb houses. Thank you.
9 A. And here two Serb houses.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you.
11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If the Honourable Judges believe
12 that it would be of some use to have the document with the locations of
13 the Serb houses, I don't have anything against marking these locations and
14 giving a new number to this photo.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I don't see the
16 point in saying that there are three Serb houses. What are you trying to
17 show? I don't really understand.
18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I am trying to show this:
19 First I'm trying to show that there were Serb houses in order to lay the
20 foundation for my question.
21 Q. In an UNPROFOR document that we have seen in this courtroom, the
22 village of Stupni Do was recorded as saying -- the document number is
23 P 9121, bullet point 27(x) and (c). This gentleman said that at the
24 beginning of the conflict two -- nine BH army soldiers were billeted in an
25 abandoned Serb house in the village. Are you familiar with that? Do you
1 know that some army members were billeted in an abandoned Serb house in
2 the village on the eve of the attack?
3 A. I'm not familiar with that at all.
4 Q. That same person went on to say that when the HVO had arrived
5 within the site the BH army had withdrawn towards the centre of the
6 village. My question is this: Are you familiar that some soldiers did
7 withdraw towards the centre of the village regardless of where they had
8 been before?
9 A. I'm not familiar with that. I don't know any such thing.
10 Q. Very well then. Somebody also said that the shelter for the
11 civilians in the centre of the village -- or, rather, that there was a
12 shelter for civilians in the centre of the village which was defended by
13 14 member of the BH army.
14 Now, are you familiar with that fact?
15 A. All I can tell you is what I heard.
16 Q. Well, go ahead and tell us what you heard.
17 A. Can I show this? It's this house here at the outskirts of the
18 village where all the people rallied together. They came from the village
19 and met here when the shooting started here from my house towards this
20 area here, and that's where the house was defended, because there were
21 about 200 people there.
22 Q. Very well. Now would you place an X, an X on that house, please,
23 the one you said was the main shelter for the civilians and that everybody
24 gathered there. And then --
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. I'd like an IC number for the photograph with these new markings,
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The map already has an IC
4 number. The witness in red has just marked the house where civilians had
5 rallied. The transcript will help us understand the indications given by
6 the witness unless we can give another IC number. Can we give another IC
7 number to that exhibit or -- no. It is not possible. So we'll keep the
8 same IC number, but we'll just remember that at a later stage the witness
9 marked the house where these people had rallied together with the Red
11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank Judge Antonetti
12 for that.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Likic, in this courtroom we heard that it was from this
14 position near the shelter that Amir Likic threw a grenade on HVO soldiers.
15 Did you hear about that?
16 A. Yes. He threw a hand grenade [as interpreted], not a grenade, to
17 save the people who were in his house.
18 Q. Now, up until that time, up until the time that this bomb was
19 thrown or hand grenade, the HVO did not attack in any way that particular
20 house in which so many civilians were located; isn't that right?
21 A. Well, I can't give you an answer because I wasn't there and
22 everything that I've told you is based on what I heard.
23 Q. All right. Fine. Now, in a document the following was also
24 recorded and it is document P 6978, point 38(c) where it was stated that
25 the defence forces of the BH army were concentrated around the main
1 village shelter where most of the civilians were located. And you've just
2 told us that indeed the BH army soldiers did turn up in the vicinity and
3 that a bomb was thrown.
4 Now, the question is is it true that the defence forces were
5 concentrated around that particular shelter?
6 A. What defence forces?
7 Q. Members of the BH army. That those members of the BH army who did
8 not leave the village, who did not go to Budozelj were concentrated around
9 the shelter in which the civilians were located?
10 A. That's what I heard, but let me repeat, I wasn't there myself.
11 Q. All right, fine. Now, according to the information we've had so
12 far, the HVO attack lasted roughly for about six to seven hours, and
13 during that time the HVO did not succeed in taking control of the whole
14 village. Is that right?
15 A. Let me repeat again and I apologise, but I did not see it myself.
16 I wasn't there. I was up in the forest and went with the women to the
17 other side of Bogos.
18 Q. All right. Fine. Now, Mr. Likic, as you did not hear anything
19 else. I have no further questions for you, and I'd like to thank you.
20 A. Thank you, too.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Flynn, would you
22 like to re-examine the witness?
23 MR. FLYNN: Just two or three questions. I hope they will be
24 short, Your Honours.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Flynn:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Likic. You were asked --
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. You were asked during the course of the day -- certain questions
4 were put to you regarding Ms. Medina Likic that described -- you said her
5 status was a fighter although you described her as a cook for the ABiH and
6 she was cooking for the forces. When you say her status was a fighter,
7 did you ever see her take up a weapon? Do you know did she possess a
9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to this
10 question because --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You must leave Mr. Flynn ask the
12 question. Ms. Alaburic. Ms. Alaburic, I have made a decision. You
13 cannot challenge my decision, so please let Mr. Flynn ask the question.
14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I ask it be record rod --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Alaburic, Article 46, if
16 you continue so. Please sit down and Mr. Flynn will ask his question,
17 we'll hear the answer of the witness, and if need be you'll be allowed to
18 ask your question. But for the time being let Mr. Flynn ask his question.
19 You are taking the floor on a particular question which I've already put
20 to the witness and the witness has already provided answer.
21 So, Mr. Flynn, what is your question.
22 MR. FLYNN:
23 Q. My question once again is in answer to Mr. Kovacic this morning --
24 or this afternoon you said that her status was a fighter, and you
25 described her later as a cook working for the ABiH. Did you ever see her
1 engaged in fighting? Do you know did she possess a weapon?
2 A. I never saw her fighting. She never possessed a weapon. All she
3 had was a military vest on her. She just cooked for the forces, so that's
4 why she had this status of fighter or combatant.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, what's the
7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all I wanted to say is
8 this: The status of the member of the army is not determined by the fact
9 that somebody cooks, is a cook, or whether is he is the commander of a
10 military unit, and that is why this question, if one wants to clarify what
11 she actually did, is subject to that.
12 So my objection would be in conformity the Geneva Conventions and
13 how members of the armed forces of one party in a conflict are defined.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, was this lady a member
15 of the ABiH or was she just a civilian cooking? Could you please answer?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, she was a member of the
17 army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But I'm not a military
18 analyst, and as I heard it, she was proclaimed a fighter, and she was
19 killed, but what she did was cook lunches and dinners for the soldiers of
20 the BH army in the village.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn.
22 MR. FLYNN:
23 Q. Just following up on that. You told us that food was brought to
24 the BiH members when they were out on the line. Did you ever see
25 Ms. Likic bring food to the soldiers in the trenches?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you. Turning -- turning to the video that was shown to you
3 earlier where a number of trenches were depicted in the video, you weren't
4 able to recognise some of those. I just wanted to ask you if you know
5 during the period that the HVO occupied Stupni Do, do you know if during
6 that period they themselves built any kind of fortifications or trenches?
7 A. Could you repeat that question, please? I'm not sure I understood
8 it properly.
9 Q. You will remember the video that was shown to you showing a number
10 of trenches, one of them overlooking Vares Majdan?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And there were a number of other trenches. You were not able to
13 recognise some of those trenches. Isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'm wondering if you can tell us during the period that the HVO
16 occupied Stupni Do, which we believe from the evidence given before this
17 panel, was certainly for a period of three to four days after the attack,
18 do you know from your own knowledge or from what you've heard if the HVO
19 constructed fortifications and trenches themselves?
20 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if you allow me before the witness
21 answers. There is a suggestion in the answer. Did the HVO build any
22 trenches. That cannot be a question. The question can be whether anybody
23 after HVO took position build the trenches. That perhaps maybe.
24 MR. FLYNN: If you wish to put it that way.
25 Q. Do you know if anybody else built trenches during the period that
1 HVO were in occupation of the village?
2 A. I don't know. When the HVO held the village, you weren't allowed
3 to enter. You couldn't enter, and I didn't hear about it either, to be
4 quite honest.
5 Q. And when you returned to the village, did you see signs -- did you
6 see signs of any new trenches having been dug?
7 A. No, no new trenches had been dug.
8 Q. And lastly, from any of the trenches which the ABiH had
9 surrounding the villages, and in particular those trenches facing Vares
10 Majdan, do you know whether or not there was any firing on the town of
11 Vares Majdan from those ABiH trenches at any stage prior to Stupni Do?
12 A. Let me explain, Your Honours. Not a single trench was turned
13 towards Vares Majdan or anything. This trench at Borova Glava was
14 facing -- I said in the first version towards Vares Majdan. However, I do
15 apologise. It was turned towards the Nesiska [phoen] Plateau and the Serb
16 village and towards the village of Mir, while the other trench on
17 Stijencica from which you can see Vares Majdan as well, if you understand
18 me, was facing Prnjavor, not towards Vares Majdan.
19 Now, the only thing is that the trench in Potok, the first trench
20 in Potok, and next to it was a small house, that faced the road leading to
21 Vares Majdan, straight to Vares Majdan, but from there you couldn't see
22 the town and the forest.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is an extremely simple
24 problem. Before the HVO attacked your village, I do say before, did a
25 soldier of the ABiH ever fire at Vares Majdan? Could that have happened?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. They never shot in the
2 direction of Vares Majdan.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're positive about it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm quite sure of that. At least
5 according to what I saw. Now, what I didn't see I can't be sure of.
6 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't have any further
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So on behalf of my colleagues, I
9 would like to thank you for having come to testify and help us understand
10 the events that unfolded in your country. I wish you a safe journey home.
11 I shall ask the usher to escort you now out of the courtroom.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will first of
14 all move into closed session.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 26453-26455 redacted. Private session
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall read slowly the
7 decision, and I will check the English translation.
8 Oral decision on the application presented by the Petkovic Defence
9 presented yesterday by Mr. Stewart.
10 At the hearing held on January the 16th, 2008, the Petkovic
11 Defence counsel, through Mr. Stewart, asked the Chamber to be allowed to
12 present its submissions on the modalities of implementation of Rule 98 bis
13 before the beginning of the presentation of oral submissions pursuant to
14 Rule 98 bis due to start on January the 28th, 2008.
15 The Chamber reminds the parties of the Three Scheduling Orders
16 issued on September the 27th, October the 22nd, and November the 22nd,
17 2007. The Chamber then granted each accused three hours to present these
18 oral submissions pursuant to Rule 98 bis unless the accused decide among
19 themselves, between themselves, to redistribute the time allotted to them
20 in a different fashion. The Chamber also decided that the Prosecution's
21 response should not exceed nine hours. Moreover, the Chamber ruled that
22 there would be no reply to the Prosecutor's response and that written
23 submissions would not be allowed.
24 As a preliminary remark, the Chamber notes that the wording of
25 Rule 98 bis, as well as the case law relating to that law, are
1 unequivocal. Nevertheless, the Chamber is prepared to hear the parties on
2 their interpretation of the Rule during their oral submissions due to
3 start on January the 28th, 2008, and within their allotted time. Thus the
4 Chamber dismisses the Petkovic Defence application for parties to be heard
5 before the above-mentioned date.
6 This was the Chamber's oral decision. To sum up, parties, as they
7 wish to do so, will be free to present their submissions, but only from
8 January the 28th during the three hours allocated to each Defence team.
9 This was our oral decision as issued by this Chamber today.
10 I also would like to indicate to all parties that several
11 decisions were issued today and filed today, which means that there is
12 very little pending at this stage. However, all decisions will be issued
13 before January the 28th.
14 This is all I wanted to indicate to the parties. If there's no
15 other issue pending, we are going to adjourn the hearing, and we will
16 invite you all to be here on Tuesday. The hearing will start at 9.00 a.m.
17 Thank you.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.54 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day
20 of January, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.