Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27923

 1                           Wednesday, 14 May 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 6     case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11     Today is the 14th of May, 2008.  My greetings to Mr. Scott and his

12     colleague.  My greetings to the witness, the Defence counsel, the

13     accused, and all the other people helping us out.

14             The examination in chief is going to continue.  Apparently,

15     Mr. Karnavas, you still have one hour based on the calculations of the

16     court deputy.  Thank you.  You have the floor.  You may proceed.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning,

18     Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone in and around the courtroom.

19                           WITNESS:  DAMIR ZORIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

22        Q.   Good morning, sir.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Yesterday there was quite a bit of a discussion concerning a

25     couple of -- the decree and then the decision.  The decision I'm speaking

Page 27924

 1     of is 1D 02638.  We're not going to refer to that immediately but that's

 2     the one and we talked a little bit about who was a refugee.  Now, you had

 3     indicated yesterday that it was on the basis of this particular decision

 4     in the previous decree that the refugees, be they Croats or Muslims or

 5     others, were being provided protection in Croatia; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, for the purposes of -- and there was some questions from the

 8     Bench and so I thought it might be rather illustrative if we could look

 9     at 1D 01581, 1581.  You have it in front of you.  It's a separate sheet

10     of paper.  We see this is a -- this is already, Your Honours, in

11     evidence.  It was introduced, as I understand it, when we had Ms. Krajsek

12     here, also it was on the list up until Monday when we tried to streamline

13     the -- our case in keeping with your instructions.  We thought we might

14     be able to do this in three hours.

15             In any event, if we look at this document, 1D 01581, dated

16     6 April 1994, and I would ask everyone to focus their attention on the

17     very first paragraph.  If you look at the second sentence in that

18     paragraph, it says, "We are applying the same principles that we have

19     been applied to the refugees in the Republic of Croatia as soon as the

20     conditions for return, primarily safety are created somewhere, the

21     refugee status for persons from that area is revoked and their return

22     made possible, as well as the return of these persons who had decided to

23     return of their own accord."  Then we see in parentheses, "(See Law on

24     the Status of Expelled Persons and Refugees, Article 9, paragraphs 1 and

25     2, Official Gazette number 96/93."

Page 27925

 1             Now, if we could go, with that in mind, if we could go to

 2     Articles -- to Article 9 in the decision, 1D 02638, the decision, the law

 3     itself.  If you go to that.  Look at Article 9.  If you could tell us

 4     whether what Dr. Rebic is referring to is this particular Article,

 5     paragraphs 1 and 2.

 6             And while you're looking it up for the Trial Chamber's benefit,

 7     this can be found on the internet, this law, the Gazette actually, and

 8     the one that we have here before us is indeed 96/93.

 9             Now, is that what you were referring to, sir?

10        A.   I believe that the decision or the letter by Mr. Rebic confirms

11     what I was saying yesterday that both the decree and the law were

12     consistently applied to refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Furthermore, I

13     would perhaps like to add something that we didn't mention yesterday.  As

14     a member of the United Nations, Croatia was also applying the UN

15     Convention on the Rights of Refugees, dated 1951.  When it became a

16     member, Croatia undertook an obligation to consistently apply all of the

17     UN conventions as well as the later protocol on the implementation of

18     that particular convention.  As far as I can tell, the documents have not

19     been included anywhere so far.

20             Therefore, this is not only about a consistent application of

21     domestic legislation but rather also about the application of

22     international laws, in this case, the rights of the refugees in the

23     Republic of Croatia.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You anticipated my next question.  Let me make sure

25     that we're thoroughly satisfied with what I'm showing you.  Is what

Page 27926

 1     Dr. Rebic pointed out, this particular Law on the Status of Expelled

 2     Persons and Refugees, Article 9, paragraphs 1 and 2, is that what is

 3     being referred to in the decision which is 1D 02638?

 4        A.   Yes, that's it.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  And if the Court wishes, I have the web site for

 7     the Official Gazette we can put it on the ELMO if that's necessary.  I do

 8     have it here to make it part of the record.

 9             All right.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness.  I have a

11     question, related question for you but I'm using this document to tackle

12     it.

13             In this document, 1D 1581, signed by Dr. Rebic, on page 2,

14     penultimate paragraph in the English version, it is said that nobody can

15     return because their houses were destroyed and so on and so forth.  Last

16     time, you were not here, Dr. Prlic made a statement and at one point in

17     time he said this and this sort of puzzled me.  I was waiting for a

18     witness to come in order to check this.

19             Dr. Prlic told us that with regard to the ownership of

20     apartments, there was some kind of social right.  I was under the

21     impression that Yugoslavia, which initially was a country with a

22     communist system, there was no ownership right as such.  It was the state

23     that would allocate apartments and dwellings to individuals who would

24     occupy it but it was social ownership, and because of what Dr. Prlic

25     said, I was under the impression that in the Republic of Croatia, this

Page 27927

 1     system was somewhat different.  I believe, I understood that the Croats

 2     were owners of their apartments.

 3             Could you shed some light on this as to the system that was in

 4     place before the breakdown of Yugoslavia?  You, for instance, were you

 5     the owner of your apartment because you had some deed of ownership that

 6     was authenticated by a notary public or was a social ownership,

 7     collective ownership, that you were given your apartment by the

 8     municipality, you could occupy it and the municipality could, in turn,

 9     give that apartment to somebody else and then when the state of

10     Yugoslavia broke down, states turned into liberal economy and market

11     economy and there was ownership for individuals.

12             Could you shed some light on the issue of ownership of an

13     apartment that can apply to displaced persons or to refugees equally?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I'm privy to

15     the inner workings of this particular matter in Croatia as well as in the

16     whole of the former Yugoslavia, there was socially-owned property.  There

17     was also private property; private property, however, was not to exceed

18     some very strict limits.  People had the right to actually own flats and

19     homes.  That was my case as well.  My parents owned a house.  There were

20     flats, for example, that were allocated by a municipal body, a company or

21     an institution.  Such flats would remain socially owned, as they say.  A

22     family or a person would be granted the right to use that flat, but under

23     a certain set of conditions.

24             If there was a failure on the part of this person or family to

25     comply with these conditions, the authorities allocating the flat were

Page 27928

 1     free to simply take the flat away from that person or family and allocate

 2     it to someone else.  As far as I know, however, socially-owned property

 3     to all practical intents was viewed and dealt with in the same way as any

 4     other form of property because that was what people did in practical

 5     terms.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Karnavas.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's go on to the next -- let's go on to the next

 9     document, 1D 02606, and you'll see there are several pages to this

10     particular document.  If you could please take a look at it first,

11     especially the copies in the original language, in Croatian.

12             My first question would be:  Do you recognise this document?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What do you recognise it to be?

15        A.   This is a table.  It is a report or a partial report on how and

16     when and where the Office for Refugees was ordering and distributing

17     heaters.  Preparations were underway for the winter season and obviously

18     one needed to get a certain amount of heaters in.

19             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, could we get a date -- I have

20     not been able to find a date on the document.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  I haven't finished with my direct examination.  I

22     haven't laid a foundation.

23             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, counsel.  You were going to provide it.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  I don't mean to snap but, I mean, we're

25     professionals around here.

Page 27929

 1             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, when one shows a witness a

 2     document or provides a document to a party, usually the information about

 3     date is provided.  Thank you.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:

 5        Q.   How do you recognise this document, first of all?

 6        A.   I would receive reports such as this one, and that's why I'm

 7     familiar with the document.

 8        Q.   Now, to answer the Prosecution's question:  Do you know when this

 9     document was generated?  And I don't want to lead you but if you look at

10     it closely, you'll see some dates on the document as far as when certain

11     incidents are reported.

12             It's the European version of putting down the dates so maybe that

13     might cause some confusion.

14        A.   I think we did this just on the eve of winter of 1992.

15        Q.   All right.  Now let's just go to the next -- by the way, if we

16     just look at the one document, we can see the date, 1992, rather very

17     clearly.  You have a listing, this would be on -- I believe it's the

18     fourth page.  You see several hotels that are being mentioned.  Can you

19     tell us where are these locations?

20        A.   These facilities, all of them, are somewhere along the coast.

21     The Split area, the Makarska area, with the exception of a single one

22     that happens to be in the Zagreb area.

23        Q.   If you flip to the next page --

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just for precision -- thank you for the

25     precision's sake, there is a mistake in the translation.  The entry

Page 27930

 1     for -- under number 9 for Gortan says 4 January 1992, which is amazing

 2     because all the rest is referring to winter 1992, 1993, and if you look

 3     at the Croatian version then you see that it should read 1993.  I think

 4     it's just a bit awkward and I think we want everything to be precise and

 5     correct.  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Now, if you go to the next page, where it says, "Adaptation of

 8     facilities, UNHCR."  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And we see all these dates are 1992.  And if you look under

11     number 8, it says "Gasinci."  Is that the island?

12        A.   No.  Gasinci is not an island; it's a refugee centre near

13     Djakovo.

14        Q.   And that's --

15        A.   What this shows, however, is that it was the UNHCR that made over

16     a former military officers's HQ into a refugee centre.

17        Q.   That's the one that Azra Krajsek was saying that the weapons were

18     pointed at, is that the one?

19             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, excuse me, this is -- I'm going to

20     object to that for this kind of commentary.  The witness doesn't know

21     that except what Mr. Karnavas tells him, so he has no -- this witness has

22     no information about what did or didn't happen.  So, Your Honour, I'm

23     going to make the point.  This is why I'm constantly on my feet about

24     commentary, comments, arguments by counsel, characterizations.  It's not

25     necessary and it's not done properly in the common law system.  You ask a

Page 27931

 1     question.  This is direct examination, cannot be leading.  You ask an

 2     open-ended, non-leading, non-suggestive question.  That's all we need.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll withdraw the question.  We'll see the

 4     document next week when we have our next witness because there is --

 5     there are documents that were in the packet that we had prepared to show

 6     to this gentleman but next week we will see complaints from Krajsek and

 7     Turkovic that weapons were being pointed at that particular facility.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, isn't that a bit of a strange

 9     argument?  What does what happens next week to do with how you now

10     question this witness?  And in fact, you have asked him to comment on

11     what another witness has said.  He hasn't, to my knowledge, been present

12     when the other witness deposed, I don't think whether he saw the

13     transcript.  I think the Prosecution -- the objection must be sustained.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.  Well, first of all, let me just respond.

15             I wasn't making an argument, I was responding to the Prosecution.

16             Secondly, yesterday, we discussed this incident.  Yesterday, I

17     pointed to portions of the transcript from the witness.  He had indicated

18     yesterday that at that particular camp which had a UNHCR centre, under no

19     circumstances, to his knowledge when he visited it, and mind you he's up

20     there until 1993 in his position, were any weapons being pointed.

21             Now we see a date 1992.  My whole point is that because there are

22     complaints that these two particular centres of which those are the only

23     two out of nearly 600 that there are complaints, we have as of 1992

24     people being stored over there.  Now who are the displaced persons or

25     refugees?  Where are they coming from on this particular date?  That's

Page 27932

 1     the point.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, once again, fortunately we have a

 3     continuation of the problem.  Now Mr. Karnavas is testifying when he says

 4     of 600 centres there were only two complaints.  We don't know that.

 5     There's no evidence of that.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  Yesterday there was evidence there were 596.

 7             MR. SCOTT:  And as far as this witness knows, which he wasn't

 8     even there between March 1993 and late 1995, as far as he knows -- as far

 9     as I know, nothing ever happened in Croatia.  I wasn't there.  As far as

10     I know.  As far as this witness knows, he knows nothing about it.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll move on, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, I have to say

13     something on this issue.  The issue you raise is as follows:  There is

14     some accommodation for refugees.  Apparently these premises were premises

15     where senior officers were accommodated previously, so there was a

16     military connotation to the premises.  Based on that, it may be that

17     there were weapons, guns on the premises.  I don't know.  And based on

18     that, you try to clarify what another witness may have said.  Two things

19     are here an issue.  In my country, a defence counsel could tell a witness

20     the following:  Witness, another witness stated that in this location,

21     there were guns directed against the refugee camp and the witness could

22     agree or disagree.  This is something that can be done.  A question that

23     can be asked.

24             In a common law system, according to Mr. Scott, that is not done.

25     I note that.  However, in the system -- a mixed system as applied in this

Page 27933

 1     Tribunal, you may find a mixture of both system, both systems and

 2     sometimes they collide and that causes procedural incidents.  This is

 3     what I wanted to say but since you're moving on to another subject, you

 4     may proceed.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Mr. President, but just to make sure.

 6     I don't agree with Mr. Scott's insinuation that this is improper direct

 7     examination.  It may be where he comes from but where I come from, I'm

 8     perfectly capable of referring to what another witness has indicated and

 9     asking the witness to comment if I can establish that that witness has a

10     basis, they have a factual basis to answer the question.

11        Q.   Now, sir, have you visited Gasinci?

12        A.   Yes, many times.

13        Q.   Now, at that point in time, if you look at the date, this is

14     2/12/92, could you please tell us whether there were any displaced

15     persons or refugees staying at that location?

16             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, could we have the dates of

17     Mr. -- Dr. Zoric's visits to the place, if we're talking about visits in

18     1991, 1992.  I'm quite serious about this.  We need to know a date.  What

19     happened in 1991 can be completely irrelevant to what happens in 1993.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, we've indicated already that the

21     gentleman worked in that capacity.  When he visited a particular location

22     is absolutely irrelevant.  What's relevant is:  During that period when

23     he was working did he know whether people were housed over there?  That's

24     the foundational question.  So I don't see why the Prosecution is getting

25     so excited.  I really don't.

Page 27934

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I think here you're right, Mr. Karnavas, and I

 2     would overrule the objection.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:

 4        Q.   So do you know, based on your position, whether -- who was there,

 5     if anybody, at that period?

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  Look at the date, Mr. Scott, please.  I know that

 7     this is European style of -- look at it, it's 2.12.92.  You're wearing

 8     your glasses, you must be able to see it.

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I reject this kind of personal

10     commentary.  This is not required, this is not called for.  It is just

11     attacks on counsel and the Court, with all respect, should not allow this

12     and Mr. Karnavas should be admonished.

13             Now, I'm looking at the -- I don't have a translated document in

14     front of me.  Yes, I can read the date.  If counsel says -- excuse me,

15     Your Honour, let me make my record.  If counsel says, if counsel says

16     that all he's referring to is that particular date -- in December 1992,

17     and that's all we're talking about because sometimes it's not clear, then

18     that's fine.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But here it was absolutely clear, counsel has

20     started off his question by referring to this date.

21             MR. SCOTT:  If I am mistaken I stand corrected.  I'm not perfect

22     but I did not understand that going into it.  Thank you.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:

24        Q.   Was anybody staying in that location, to your knowledge, back

25     then; and if so, who?

Page 27935

 1        A.   Both refugees and displaced persons at the time.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could Mr. Karnavas please

 3     try to speak closer to the microphone.  Thank you.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:

 5        Q.   Could you tell us how often you have visited this particular

 6     location on or about that period of time?

 7        A.   Three or four times, perhaps.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   To see how the facility was being set up and what exactly was

10     going on.  It was my job to tour places that like that to see whether

11     they were operating properly.  Again, I must point out that there were no

12     weapons being kept there.  The fact that the facility had been used by

13     senior officers of the former army doesn't necessarily mean that they

14     left any weapons behind.  That particular army never left a single weapon

15     behind, at least that much is generally known.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, and at the risk of being

17     criticised by the Court again, I'm sorry but I'm back to my saying -- so

18     when he says he visited it three or four times, during what period are we

19     talking about?  During December 1992, that time, or throughout a three-

20     or four- or five-year period, or -- I'm sorry, but I'm going to ask for

21     the information.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, so you -- well, I

23     would find it difficult to say in which month I was in which location 15

24     years ago, but maybe you have a better memory than I do.  Could you more

25     or less tell us when you visited the facility or are you not in a

Page 27936

 1     position to do so, which I would understand perfectly well.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult to be particularly

 3     specific about dates but it was certainly the case whenever there was

 4     something very important going on.  When the larger groups arrived, when

 5     there were things to be done, or when UNHCR teams went, I would tag

 6     along.  I think there was a total of maybe three or four times that I

 7     visited Gasinci in 1992, but I can't be any more specific about the

 8     dates.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:

10        Q.   All right.  Just one last question about this document, you see

11     at the very top it says, "Adaptation of facilities UNHCR."  Can you tell

12     us what exactly are these figures?  What does this mean?  And you may

13     have to look at the next page as well.

14        A.   These figures show the dates when contracts were signed and they

15     show how much money was spent under the terms of those contracts.  They

16     also show the amounts of money remaining and they also show the deadlines

17     for this makeover.  The UNHCR is bankrolling the whole project.

18        Q.   Okay.  So I know yesterday we saw a document 1D 2609 and that was

19     a letter of mutual intent to conclude an agreement and we saw that your

20     office, ODPR, was to report in financial and narrative form the use of

21     all contributions received.  Now, granted this is at a latter date, this

22     document I'm referring to right now, and it's about something slightly

23     different but may I ask, the funds that were being received from UNHCR,

24     was your office responsible for accounting for how that money was spent

25     where and for what purposes?

Page 27937

 1        A.   Yes, the office was accountable for that and joint bodies decided

 2     how and on what that money is to be spent.  We cooperated with the UNHCR

 3     and after the job had been done, we submitted reports on what we had done

 4     and how much money we had spent.

 5        Q.   All right.  If we look at 1D 01294, that's the next document.

 6     This refers to a Dr. Bisera Turkovic, appointed ambassador to the

 7     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Republic of Croatia, did you know

 8     this woman?

 9        A.   Yes, I met her several times at receptions.

10        Q.   Did you have any official dealings with her while she was the

11     ambassador, and I'm speaking now for time-frame purposes, up until the

12     time when you were the office ODPR in 1993, that is, did you have any

13     official meetings with her?

14        A.   No, I had very little contact with the ambassador.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why did you have so little

17     contact with her?  I see that she was appointed in the month of January,

18     1993.  I know that you were there until the month of March so you had the

19     entire month of February to have contacts.  And if there were refugees

20     from Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time, should she not have contacted

21     you in order to solve these problems?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so and that was actually

23     part of her mandate to take care of BiH citizens but they contacted me

24     very rarely.  I met the lady once or twice.  We spoke politely,

25     introduced each other, exchanged a few courteous phrases and that was

Page 27938

 1     all.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:

 3        Q.   Now, to make sure, to follow up on what you had indicated

 4     yesterday.  Above you was Dr. Rebic; correct?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   And given his position, would it have been more likely that she

 7     or her representative would have contacted Dr. Rebic as opposed to you,

 8     you being the number two albeit you're the one handling the day-to-day

 9     affairs?

10        A.   Yes.  Dr. Rebic represented the office and it is natural for the

11     representatives of foreign countries to contact him first.  But if he had

12     been approached about any activities that we should do, I would have

13     learned about it because I would have been the one to implement that.

14        Q.   All right.  Now, where was your office with respect to

15     Dr. Rebic's office?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karnavas speak into the microphone to

17     the right.

18        A.   We were sitting in the same building, he was on the first floor

19     and I was on the ground floor.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  All right.

21        Q.   If we could go on to the next document 1D 02607.  1D 02607.  This

22     is dated February 3, 1993, and again, I just want some clarification.  It

23     says, "One-time financial assistance for refugees from BiH who organised

24     their lives independently and for their hosts."  Now, can you just

25     comment very briefly what does this mean?  I know you touched upon it

Page 27939

 1     yesterday but we had that whole argument about whether the law applied

 2     and whether Croatia was actually taking care of refugees, Muslim

 3     refugees, but if you could look at this, could you please tell us what

 4     does this mean?

 5        A.   This is an instruction to regional offices and local offices of

 6     social welfare centres who worked with refugees about the distribution of

 7     financial assistance to refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina; namely, to

 8     those refugees who lived independently rather than in collective

 9     accommodation centres but who were registered as refugees in Croatia.

10     Those who were registered and lived in collective refugee centres had

11     their costs covered by us; and those refugees who lived independently

12     received financial assistance occasionally in the form of one-time

13     financial assistance.  This is for refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at just paragraph number 4, keeping

15     in mind your testimony yesterday about the centres and then the regional

16     office and the reporting system and keeping track of the data and

17     updating the census, can you comment on this a little bit?

18        A.   This paragraph speaks about the obligation to forward data to the

19     centre.  Dr. Kurent, at the time, was the head of the international

20     department of our office and she closely cooperated with the UNHCR.  He

21     was sort of our minister of foreign affairs.

22        Q.   So the data would come from the centres to the regional office

23     and then from the regional office to the head office; am I correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  If we could go on to the next document, 1D 02283, dated

Page 27940

 1     25 February 1993.  We see this is a protocol on cooperation between the

 2     government of the Republic of Croatia and the government of the

 3     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to establish logistics centres in the

 4     Republic of Croatia for the reception and distribution of humanitarian

 5     aid sent to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6             Now my first question is:  Were you aware of this protocol?

 7        A.   Yes, I knew of its existence.

 8        Q.   All right.  If we go back to the second page, we see

 9     Dr. Mate Granic, that's the individual that initially got you involved;

10     correct?  And that you were working for?

11        A.   Yes, correct.

12        Q.   All right.  Now, were you involved in any way with implementing

13     this protocol albeit it's now February 25th and you're only there shortly

14     in that office in ODPR before you go and take your seat on the

15     parliament.

16        A.   At that time, few organisations that wanted to help

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina went there directly.  It was much easier for everybody

18     to bring the aid to Croatia and then through the cooperation of Croatian

19     and BiH organisations or governments was that aid transported to

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21             At the time, there was heavy fighting going on in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina and many companies were reluctant to go there apart

23     from soldiers, the UNPROFOR but civilian companies very rarely did so,

24     only to some regions.  So Sarajevo felt the need to have logistical

25     centres in Croatia and they were set up mostly in Split and Zagreb.  It

Page 27941

 1     was our duty according to the instructions given by government to assist

 2     them in finding warehouses and we did, at least in Zagreb, and I took

 3     part in that.  We found warehousing facilities in the Zagreb

 4     International Trade Fair premises.  Some existing facilities were

 5     converted into warehouses and from there, they independently organised

 6     the distribution of goods to wherever they felt necessary.

 7        Q.   If we could go on to the next document, 1D 027 --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.  I

 9     have a follow-up question.

10             Witness, you just said something that struck me as being very

11     important.  You talked about a document which relates to the cooperation

12     between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia and it seems that centres have

13     been put in place in order to receive refugees coming from Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina.  Can you tell us, this system seems that it is -- it seems

15     that it's linked to Serb or Serbian actions which seems to be responsible

16     for the displacement of these persons which means that at least for a

17     certain period of time, an agreement existed between Croatia and

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina so that Croatia receives refugees and the system

19     worked in that way.

20             Am I right when I say this, when I draw this conclusion?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you're referring

22     to this protocol, it is about logistics and we had other protocols signed

23     about receiving and taking back refugees from and to Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24     those are protocols between our two countries.  This protocol is about

25     the establishment of logistical centres in Croatia but such centres that

Page 27942

 1     would be managed by the representatives of the Sarajevo authorities.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if we understand correctly,

 3     an agreement existed between the parties so that the Sarajevo government

 4     is in charge of the implementation of these centres.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So this

 7     cooperation, to your knowledge, how long did it last?  The two states had

 8     this agreement for how long in order to make sure that things work well?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The agreement was being implemented

10     throughout the war.  Now, it's because these centres assisted in the

11     return of these people.  In an operational fashion, I believe that they

12     were active until 1997.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Now you're saying

14     throughout the war.  I no longer follow you.  Which war are you talking

15     about?  There are many wars.  Would you kindly be more precise?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can be more precise.  From

17     the humanitarian aspect, there was one single war.  We may be able to say

18     that there were many wars if we look at it from different angles.  I mean

19     the war that went on until 1995.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just to make sure I understand

21     you absolutely well.  Do you mean that during the BiH offensive in the

22     Lasva Valley, for instance, in Central Bosnia, while combat operations

23     were taking place, this agreement between the Republic of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina and Croatia was fully operational?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  As a part of the

Page 27943

 1     paradox that we lived through, and it was a bitter part of our work.

 2     People complained to us and there were situations, sometimes, that

 3     soldiers spent their leave with their families who were refugees and

 4     watching the news, some of them would rejoice and others would cry.  And

 5     it was -- those were very hard times.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:

 7        Q.   All right.  So just to pick up on that.  You said "soldiers."

 8     Where were these soldiers?  Where were they from?  Where would they go?

 9     I don't want to lead you, just tell us, and give us an example if you

10     could.

11        A.   Soldiers, as you know, were in the position to get weekend leave

12     and the like and they would come from Central Bosnia or Herzegovina,

13     mostly to Dalmatia and if they spent their weekend leaves, then it was

14     mostly with their families who were refugees there.

15             It was very difficult to cross lines in the war, the lines held

16     by Serbian forces because they -- their forces were strong.  But the

17     front line between the Croatian and the Bosnian forces were soft lines so

18     it was possible to cross them at some places and so did I.  And there

19     were situations and reports were made about that, about great emotional

20     stress that practically in the same small town or facility, you would

21     have people from one and the other side.  But all obligations that the

22     government had taken upon itself were being implemented.  All logistical

23     centres were functional and all aid to Bosnia-Herzegovina went through

24     Croatia.  Actually it was transported over one single bridge which was --

25        Q.   Let me stop you here.  I asked you a very concrete question if

Page 27944

 1     you could give us a concrete answer.

 2             The question is:  You said "soldiers."  Are we talking about

 3     Muslim soldiers killing Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the weekdays

 4     and then going to visit their family in say Makarska during the weekend.

 5     That's a concrete example.  Is that what you're talking about?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know whether those who killed others actually came

 7     to Croatia and if they came, they didn't come as soldiers, they came as

 8     citizens.  But as citizens, they were admitted to Croatia freely because

 9     there was no visa regime in place with Bosnia-Herzegovina nor could it --

10     nor could there have been such a regime because Croatia was the immediate

11     neighbour of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a small detail that might

13     be interesting, those soldiers who would go visit their family in

14     Croatia, would they come wearing jeans, a suit or would they actually

15     come wearing their military fatigues?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, they couldn't

17     come in uniforms.  They could come in civilian clothes but we're talking

18     about people from small towns or villages and everybody knows everybody

19     else.  And Central Bosnia is a small place where you can't be anonymous

20     and it wasn't hard to recognise people if they were from the same town or

21     village as you.

22             Apart from that, the logistical centres were the destination of

23     delegations and convoys, et cetera, from Bosnia-Herzegovina including

24     military personnel.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:

Page 27945

 1        Q.   Just one final question on that.  When we're talk about soldiers,

 2     which particular armies are we talking about?

 3        A.   We're talking about soldiers of the army of BiH or soldiers of

 4     the HVO.

 5        Q.   So in other words, a soldier from the army of BiH could take off

 6     his uniform, go across the border, have a nice little weekend, visit the

 7     family then go back to the front line in Central Bosnia?  That's what

 8     we're talking about?

 9        A.   Some of them were able to do so, not everybody, but some, yes.

10        Q.   All right.  If we could go on to the next document 1D 02778,

11     1D 02778.  If we look at the bottom, we see that this is from the

12     Office of Displaced Persons and Refugees, February 1993, Zagreb.  And

13     sir, first of all, do you recognise this document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   All right.  What is this document?  Without going into the

16     contents, just tell us what is it, basically?

17        A.   It's a flyer containing information or an appeal of our office

18     which was distributed on a regular basis to everybody willing to help.

19        Q.   All right.  Now, I want to focus everyone's attention to

20     paragraph number 2, especially in light of our discussion yesterday and

21     today as far as aid to refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It says here,

22     "At present, (February) there are approximately 400.000 refugees from

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina registered in Croatia and 250.000 displaced

24     persons (people who came from occupied or war-ravaged area in Croatia).

25     That is to say that Croatia is responsible for the accommodation of more

Page 27946

 1     than 650.000 people, of which are accommodated in hotels, private homes,

 2     schools, huts, and train cars."

 3             Question:  Is that an accurate statement?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   What was the purpose for this flyer, because we see that they are

 6     requesting assistance of people to give, basically.

 7        A.   We are asking for donations and assistance and we're trying to

 8     maintain the awareness of people that there is a need to give.

 9     Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to bear this burden.  So we were

10     constantly raising the awareness of the general public letting them know

11     that we must help our -- we must all help each other and help ourselves

12     to live through this difficult period.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You, witness, you talked about

14     650.000 people or that's what the document states and it's a huge number

15     and we see that these people were accommodated in various places, hotels,

16     schools, and so on and so forth and even in private homes.  To your

17     knowledge, had you heard of the fact that Croatians would have

18     accommodated in their own homes Muslims that they would have accommodated

19     during the war?  Do you have any examples to give us, for instance?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  There are many

21     examples of this type.  In towns and villages, people would receive

22     refugees in their homes.  More than half the refugees were not put up in

23     organised camps or facilities but they were put up in the homes of

24     Croatian citizens who were not forced to take them up.  They did so of

25     their own accord.  Of course you would first admit your relatives or

Page 27947

 1     friends, but many people took up persons who had simply turned up and who

 2     needed help.  And there are many examples of this kind.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Financially speaking, if a

 4     Croatian family was accommodating, for instance, Muslim refugees who had

 5     absolutely not a penny, they only, let's say, came with a suitcase, do

 6     you know if that Croatian family, for instance, could receive a financial

 7     aid from either the municipality or the government in order to help them

 8     to feed these Muslim refugees?  Do you know if there was a system in

 9     place of social protection that existed to help these people who were

10     accommodating these refugees?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such families could get support if

12     there were funds available.  This assistance was not paid out regularly.

13     There were no set dates but rather as one-time financial assistance.  The

14     system of distribution, of humanitarian aid to such families functioned

15     rather well and those humanitarian aid mostly consisted in food and

16     household items.

17             Many organisations were engaged in that such as Karitas,

18     Merhamet, the Red Cross, and other smaller organisations.  Families who

19     had put up refugees in their homes would get aid from these.  The

20     financial assistance was scarce, though, which, as a consequence,

21     financially exhausted the host families because the overall economic

22     situation in Croatia was by no means brilliant and there are expenses

23     connected with housing.  So that one-time financial assistance was made

24     available to the office to distribute to these families and sometimes we

25     would get resources from UNHCR and also distribute them to these families

Page 27948

 1     but that was no regular assistance.  It was provided occasionally.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Karnavas.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   That's in contrast to what you told us yesterday if somebody were

 5     to go to say Germany where, as I understand it, you indicated yesterday

 6     per individual would be a thousand marks a month; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, but Germany was a much richer country.  Was and still is.

 8     There was some federal states where refugees received that type of

 9     subsidy.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I bring the correction, I think the witness

11     says up to a thousand mark which does not mean that everybody got

12     automatically a thousand marks.  Do I understand you correctly, Witness?

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  You're shaking your head, you have to say ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:

16        Q.   Now, let's go on to the next document, 1D 02626, 2626.  It's

17     dated 12 June 1998.  Let me ask some preliminary questions.  First of

18     all, do you recognise this document?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And have you had a chance to look at the document?

21        A.   Yes, I wrote reports such as this one.

22        Q.   All right.  And some of the data that's included there, at least

23     during the period that you were there in that particular office, and we

24     know that you went back in 1995, can you please tell us where this data

25     came from?

Page 27949

 1        A.   This is a summary of what went on over a number of years.  There

 2     are a number of different sources for this report, the Office for

 3     Refugees and Displaced Persons, the UNHCR, and other organisations that

 4     were working with refugees and displaced persons in Croatia at the time.

 5     This document gives you a general picture of the situation as it was.  It

 6     also gives you precise statistics as to what was going on with these

 7     refugees and displaced persons in Croatia over the years.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, I want to focus on two things in this particular

 9     document, not everything -- we can all read it.  If you look at footnote

10     number one it talks about elections for BiH that were held in 1996.  Can

11     you tell us whether the Office of Displaced Persons and Refugees

12     participated in any way with the elections that were held for BiH?

13        A.   Yes.  The first post-war elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina were

14     held in September 1996.  This was organised and monitored by the OSCE.  A

15     decision was taken that elections would be held among Bosnia's refugees

16     living abroad as well.  There was another decision to hold elections in

17     Croatia among Bosnia's refugees.  The OSCE entrusted the Office for

18     Refugees and Displaced Persons with this project.  I was appointed

19     coordinator for this whole registering procedure.  All Bosnia's refugees

20     in Croatia, all those who wanted to take part in the elections had to

21     register first.  A total of about 120.000 refugees eventually registered.

22             I believe a total of 97.000 actually took part in the elections.

23     I think the document actually states the exact number, 93.456 people,

24     eventually took part in the elections.  We organised and held these

25     elections in cooperation with the OSCE.  The OSCE had a permanent

Page 27950

 1     representative in our office and they also had dozens of monitors all

 2     over the country where elections were being held and in our office as

 3     well.  There was this permanent representative of the OSCE who was in

 4     charge of monitoring the procedure on their behalf.  He was from

 5     Switzerland, his name was Tobias Werler and I think he was from Basel and

 6     that's the extent of what I know about him.  I don't think I've ever seen

 7     him again.

 8             It was necessary to get funding for the elections to be held and

 9     it was necessary also to get technical assistance and this is something

10     that either we or the OSCE made sure was the case.

11        Q.   All right.  And as a result of your participation and your

12     office's participation, did you ever receive --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:

15        Q.   As a result of your participation and your office's participation

16     in this election, did you ever receive any accommodation or any comments

17     from OSCE?

18        A.   The then representative of the OSCE Bosnia-Herzegovina

19     Ambassador Frowick sent a very nice letter.  As a result, we were all

20     very proud.  He said something to the effect that the entire procedure

21     was a major contribution to the growth of democracy in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        Q.   All right.  Was that ever published so that the world would know

24     your office's participation in this event?

25        A.   Yes, this was widely publicised.  It was on the news and I think

Page 27951

 1     he sent a separate letter to the Foreign Minister and the letter was

 2     forwarded to the media.  It was on the news.

 3        Q.   One quick question on this.  Why was it that the embassy for

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zagreb was not entrusted with this task?  Why go to

 5     the Office of Displaced Persons and Refugees?

 6        A.   Perhaps this is a question for the OSCE and not for me.  I do

 7     believe, however, that the embassy back then did not really have the

 8     level of organisation that an effort like this would have demanded.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Did the embassy ever complain that this

10     particular office, the ODPR, had been unfair, had been unkind, had been

11     uncaring to its citizens and therefore should not be entrusted with this

12     rather important function?

13        A.   No, there were no complaints like that.  Quite the contrary, in

14     fact.  The embassy was one of the monitoring institutions.  Parties from

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina dispatched their own representatives to observe, since

16     there was quite a large number of votes being cast, especially in those

17     municipalities that wanted to go back to their ethnic make-up as it was

18     before the war; therefore, every single vote counted.  Parties also sent

19     their leaders over to promote their own parties in major centres where

20     refugees from staying.  Those were Croat parties from Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina or Bosnian parties from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Both ethnic

22     groups.  That's what I'm trying to say.

23        Q.   All right.  If we could go to page 3, page 3, paragraph 4, the

24     last paragraph within the section where it says, "Between the summer --

25     between summer 1995 and May 1996 in Croatia, about 20.000 Muslim refugees

Page 27952

 1     from Velika Kladusa and Cazin stayed in Krupljensko, Republic of

 2     Croatia."  Then it goes on to say, "They are not included in the numbers

 3     mentioned above.  The camp was closed in May 1996 when the last group of

 4     refugees moved to refugee settlements in Gasinci and Obonjan."  Let's

 5     stop right there.  Do you have any information regarding this particular

 6     passage?

 7        A.   Refugees who arrived in Krupljensko were refugees from the

 8     Velika Kladusa and Cazin areas.  They made two attempts to enter Croatia.

 9     There was a lot going on there and I think Abdic's forces lost out

10     eventually.  I'm not going into what was actually going on in Velika

11     Kladusa at the time, however, much of Croatia's territory was still under

12     occupation.  It was somewhere near Karlovac that they tried to cross the

13     front line but they were unable to, the front line separating the Croat

14     forces from the Serb forces.  As a result, they were returned to Velika

15     Kladusa.  An operation was then launched to liberate those areas.

16     Following an operation by the BiH army taking Velika Kladusa and Cazin,

17     the followers of Abdic, about 20.000 of them, arrived in a small village

18     in Croatia called Krupljensko.  They settled down and turned themselves

19     into a major international problem.  They refused to go back.  They

20     refused to be put up anywhere else.

21             International organisations and our own office provided them with

22     assistance and food.  The conditions in that village were truly

23     miserable.  Nevertheless, the Republic of Croatia and Turkey along with

24     the authorities of the newly-established Federation of B and H set up a

25     system of police patrols that were operating throughout western Bosnia in

Page 27953

 1     Cazin and Velika Kladusa.  In this sense, this gave the refugees a

 2     feeling of safety and made it possible for them to go back.

 3     Nevertheless, they had heard while still in the camp of several cases of

 4     revengism and refugees being killed.  It was very difficult for them to

 5     take this step and decide to go back.  Despite this, after months of

 6     ongoing activity by the police forces of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina

 7     and Turkey, about 16.000 people eventually returned to Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina.  About 4.000 of those, however, categorically refused to

 9     return.  We ended up allowing those 4.000 persons to remain in Gasinci

10     and we put them up.  Some of them sought asylum in third countries.  Most

11     of them, however, eventually returned to their homes in B and H.

12        Q.   First of all, where they were initially settled, was that camp

13     that was sanctioned and operated by ODPR?

14        A.   No, this was a village.  They came to that village, it was that

15     simple, and they settled down.  They put up tents that they had brought

16     along on lorries.  They built mud huts.  This wasn't a very dignified

17     kind of housing, it was just very makeshift.

18        Q.   Were there complaints about this particular camp; and if so, who

19     was complaining?  And keep it brief, sir.

20        A.   Dealing with this issue, I think, was the last term for Croatia

21     to be admitted into the Council of Europe.  As you well know, Croatia was

22     eventually admitted and we dealt with the Krupljensko problem.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, your answer adds one

24     more complex features to the issue we're seized of.  We've seen various

25     documents with figures concerning the refugees.  Initially, refugees

Page 27954

 1     coming from Bosnia and Herzegovina can be put into two broad categories,

 2     the Croats and the Muslims.  As for the latter, on the basis of your

 3     answer, I see that there were among them Muslims who were in favour of

 4     the Croats, for instance, Abdic's troops.  So there were Muslims who were

 5     pro-Croats.  They were accommodated and accepted as refugees and are

 6     included into the general statistics.  So that's one additional factor

 7     that we'll have to take into account and assess.

 8             With regard to your office, when you were informed of the arrival

 9     of these Muslim refugees, did you ever make a distinction between one

10     category and the other or were they all refugees, Muslim refugees without

11     your office making any distinction?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we didn't draw that

13     type of distinction, nor indeed was it possible to draw one.  I didn't

14     think of Muslims as being pro-Croat or perhaps another kind.  They were

15     what they were, even those in western Bosnia.  The history of this

16     conflict is quite complex.  I think some of those forces --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We know that, you don't need to

18     go into that.  It's very complex and every passing day gives us further

19     evidence of that.

20             I am interested in knowing whether there were any distinctions

21     among Muslims.  You, see, why I'm raising this issue because I have a

22     follow-up question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, there was no

24     distinction.  We didn't draw one.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The reason why I asked you this

Page 27955

 1     is that in the document, 1D 2637, first page in the English version,

 2     figures are mentioned 1.8 million refugees, 900.000 from BiH and these

 3     figures clarify things, but there is a second paragraph that says that

 4     there are people who returned to Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This return to

 5     BiH is to be found in paragraph III of page 2, (i) in December of 1992 in

 6     Croatia, there were 371.319 refugees.  In the following paragraph, the

 7     situation prevailing in May 1993 is described when they registered

 8     271.096 refugees from BiH that were granted the status of refugees and

 9     that's where things get interesting in my view.  It is said that many

10     went to European countries and there is a small group that was not

11     granted that status, apparently.  That group of people returned to BiH.

12     That's what I'm interested in.

13             On the basis of this paragraph, one could have proof that

14     individuals came to Croatia in order to be granted the status of refugees

15     and then they returned back to BiH.  It's written in this document.  You

16     could not have drafted this document because it was drafted in 1998.  It

17     may be that you were informed of this, but I am interested in the

18     situation in May.  This document says that Muslims returned to BiH.  Were

19     you aware of this?  It may be that you were no longer in the office in

20     May, but you were an MP so as an MP, in theory, you must be informed of

21     various things.

22             Did you know that Muslims from Bosnia and Herzegovina arrived in

23     Croatia to return later to BiH as seems to be indicated by this document?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed.  Your Honour, when reports

25     talk about the numbers of refugees that were put up in Croatia at a given

Page 27956

 1     point in time, the reference is only to those who were in Croatia at this

 2     precise point in time.  It doesn't necessarily mean there weren't any

 3     other refugees there but they'd either left for third countries or had

 4     returned to BH.

 5             We handled nearly a million people through our office in

 6     different ways who came, left, went elsewhere, or perhaps returned to

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  At times, there were as many as 200 to 300.000

 8     people at a time.  Some came, some left, some went back to Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina and then back to Croatia and then were granted status as

10     refugees again.  Between 1993 and 1995, and this might strike one as

11     petty and not enough, but we worked with humanitarian workers,

12     representatives of various organisations and so on and so forth, we

13     managed to have about 5.000 people returned to B and H.  This may seem as

14     little but it was a huge success.

15             In 1993, we started cooperating with the German authorities in

16     terms of bringing people back.  If you look at the statistics in Bosnia

17     and Herzegovina throughout, you will realise that there were a number of

18     towns from which we, in Croatia, and the countries all over Europe were

19     receiving refugees all the time such as Zenica, for example.  These

20     cities would provide their own figures on the numbers of refugees that

21     they were facing at a given point in time.  There was a lot of migration.

22     People were moving about a lot, but between 1993 and 1995, in particular,

23     people started returning more and more.

24             Sometime in March 1995, the respective governments of Croatia and

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Office For Refugees on the one hand and

Page 27957

 1     the directorate from Mostar on the other signed a protocol on the return

 2     of refugees and displaced persons, there was an international tripartite

 3     agreement also that was later to be --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since this is an important

 5     issue, I'm going to be more specific.  I'm interested in the year 1993

 6     and the beginning of 1994, in that period.  You have just said that

 7     between 1993 and 1995, 5.000 people returned to BiH, fine.  Could you be

 8     more specific in your answers?  Among these 5.000 individuals in that

 9     period from 1993 to beginning of 1994, could it be that some of them

10     returned to Herzegovina, that is, to the areas that were controlled by

11     the HVO?  It's very important for us to know that.  Could it be, as far

12     as you know, that Muslims who returned to the territory that was

13     controlled by the HVO in 1993 and early 1994?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and there were Muslims among

15     the people who returned.

16             MR. SCOTT:  For the record, and if the Chamber will allow me.  In

17     looking at the information and just so the record is not confused,

18     there's -- these numbers did not distinguish between Croats and Muslims,

19     where it says, "5.000 people from BiH returned."  We don't know if they

20     were 5.000 Croats or 5.000 something else or a mixture.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we're going to specify

22     this.  My question was very, very specific.  It dealt only with Muslims

23     who may have returned to BiH to areas controlled by the HVO in 1993,

24     early 1994.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were Muslim refugees, too,

Page 27958

 1     who returned.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you absolutely certain of

 3     this?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Karnavas, you

 6     have a few minutes left before the break and you don't have much time

 7     left anyway, do you?

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  I have enough to conclude, Your Honour, but

 9     perhaps it might be better to just take the break.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you'd rather we took the

11     break now?  We'll have a break.  In the meantime, the court deputy is

12     going to tell us how many minutes or seconds you have left and then when

13     we resume, you will be able to proceed to finish.  Let's have a 20-minute

14     break.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, you have nine

18     more minutes, or 450 seconds.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   If we could go back to the document that we were on, just one

21     technical question or two to finish it up.  1D 02626, going back to

22     paragraph 4 which is on page 3.  You had indicated that there were about

23     4.000 persons that refused to go back to BiH and they had to be

24     resettled, and they went to Gasinci and Obonjan.  So my next question is

25     who moved them?

Page 27959

 1        A.   The ODPR moved them.

 2        Q.   Now, we talked earlier about the fact that there were elections.

 3     Were they still there when the elections took place?

 4        A.   I think so.

 5        Q.   All right.  And were there voting booths over there or were

 6     people allowed to go to various centres to vote?  How was it organised?

 7        A.   At Gasinci, there was a polling station because there were people

 8     from Bosnia-Herzegovina there.  Whoever was there and was registered and

 9     wanted to vote could do so at Gasinci.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, let's move on to something else.  You had

11     indicated in 1993, sometime in March, you became a member of parliament

12     and we know that as of March 1993 and thereafter, and to some parts of

13     1994, there were some clashes between the army of BiH and the HVO and we

14     have refugees from both sides coming into Croatia.  My question is this:

15     While you were a member of parliament, do you ever recall having any

16     discussions and the government passing any proposals or the parliament,

17     to limit the entry of Muslim refugees into Croatia or to limit the

18     assistance that they would be receiving once into Croatia?

19        A.   The parliament never passed such decisions, but I know that the

20     government turned to the international community requesting assistance

21     and that many governments reacted and notified us of their quotas, say,

22     the number of refugees they would accept.  Germany was willing to put up

23     the greatest number of refugees, some countries were unwilling to accept

24     any, and some Islamic countries such as Malaysia, Sudan, Turkey and

25     others were also willing to accept some.  There were also offers saying

Page 27960

 1     we were ready to accept so and so many in this country.

 2        Q.   Recognising the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Central Bosnia

 3     in particular, where you indicated that refugees that were both Croat and

 4     Muslim coming there, were there any efforts to somehow discriminate

 5     against the Muslim refugees that were coming in?

 6             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I'm sorry but -- excuse me --

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  That he's aware of.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  I can't get my microphone, Your Honour.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  Sorry.

10             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.  I appreciate Mr. Karnavas

11     says that he's aware of but that's an extremely broad question and that

12     he's aware of.  I mean as a member of parliament not involved with these

13     issues on a daily basis, is he aware of?  And I mean, again, as I

14     mentioned earlier this morning that's like asking anyone, you know, did

15     Joe wear a blue shirt yesterday that you are aware of?  Well, I'm not

16     aware of it but that doesn't mean anything.  I think there has to be some

17     specification here and some indication of personal knowledge other than a

18     wild guess as, well, I never heard of anything.  I mean, was he involved

19     in these issues?  Was he sitting on a committee?  Was there a particular

20     report?  During this entire period, we're talking about a year's -- a

21     long period of time, is he aware of anything by anyone, anywhere in the

22     Croatian government to discriminate?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll ask a series of questions.

25        Q.   From March 1993 until the time that you go back to the ODPR, were

Page 27961

 1     you aware of what was happening in Croatia with respect to the refugees

 2     and displaced persons?  We'll go step-by-step, Mr. Scott, please.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I'm not trying to be difficult.  I'm

 4     really not.  But I do have to make a fair record here and I am a party to

 5     this as much as anybody else.  What does that mean?  "Aware of what was

 6     happening in Croatia?"

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  We have to go step-by step.  First, if he says no

 8     then that's the end of the series of questions.

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Of course he's going to say presumably, anyone who

10     read the newspaper on a daily basis is going to say, Well, I had some

11     awareness of what was happening.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  I will refocus it.

13        Q.   Were there any discussions in parliament with respect to the

14     refugees and displaced persons keeping in mind that you've indicated that

15     there were budgetary constraints and also there was a budget with respect

16     to the financing of the various centres?  So were you aware of this?

17        A.   There were debates in parliament about these issues.  There were

18     public -- there was public debate, there were political debates and some

19     people took part in them, so did I sometimes.  It was the goal of all of

20     us to appease the situation, to end the conflict and to create the

21     conditions for the people to return to their homes.  These positions were

22     uttered publicly and officially asserted.

23        Q.   Now, during the course of these proceedings, we've been making a

24     record and at which point I asked concretely on the record for the

25     Prosecutor to tell us whether it was in his opinion whether the

Page 27962

 1     government of Croatia, and by that I meant the state of Croatia, whether

 2     they were being charged with a failure to provide adequate assistance to

 3     the refugees and whether Mr. Rebic was a member of the joint criminal

 4     enterprise by virtue of his occupation.  That could be found on page

 5     20.009, so 20.009.

 6             Mr. Scott responded as follows on the following page, 20.010

 7     starting with line 6, he says, "I'll respond directly.  Yes, that is part

 8     of the ethnic cleansing of Muslims from Bosnia-Herzegovina and from

 9     Herceg-Bosna area.  This was part of a system as charged in the

10     indictment to move Muslims out of Herceg-Bosna and it was done any number

11     of ways.  One of those ways was to move them either at least temporarily

12     into Croatia and either to abandon them there which may have come up

13     further in parts or -- of the testimony of this witness or to move them

14     on to other countries but not to return them to Bosnia-Herzegovina."

15             Now, based on that, to your understanding, based on your

16     involvement both when you were in that office up until 1993 and

17     thereafter 1995, but more specifically while you were out of the office

18     but a member of the parliament, to your understanding was there a

19     concerted effort on the state of Croatia or officials of the state of

20     Croatia such as Mr. Rebic to turn Croatia into some sort of a transit

21     centre to force Muslim refugees outside to third countries, the further

22     away, that is, so they couldn't go back -- go back to their homelands and

23     thus ethnically cleansing the area.  Can you answer that question?

24             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, do I understand Dr. Zoric now

25     to be speaking on behalf of every person, every official, every authority

Page 27963

 1     in the Republic of Croatia?

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, we have a joint criminal enterprise.

 3     This is the office that is responsible for these refugees.  You have

 4     Dr. Rebic who is at the top.  This gentleman was second in command.  As I

 5     understand from all the objections, and I can only guesstimate but from

 6     all the objections, it's the Prosecution's argument that sometime when

 7     this gentleman was outside of that office, when the events are happening

 8     in Central Bosnia, it is at that point at least with respect to ODPR that

 9     they become a member of the joint criminal enterprise and thus Dr. Rebic

10     or others may be either aiding and abetting the crimes or are members of

11     or are the physical perpetrators, one of those three.  Those are the

12     three options.

13             Now, it is the Prosecution's argument that Croatia is turned into

14     a transit centre.  I'm asking this gentleman because if this is an

15     argument, if this is an office of the government of the state of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if this gentleman is a member of the parliament,

17     and if it's being budgeted, clearly something must be aware of what is

18     happening.  Dr. Rebic could not be acting on his own.  Is he getting --

19     we're going to see the gentleman, but to his knowledge, to his knowledge,

20     is this office part of the joint criminal enterprise as a result of it

21     being an agency of the state of -- the Republic of Croatia.  I mean

22     that's the danger of this joint criminal enterprise.  But we have -- you

23     know and this is -- this is the alleged JCE and of course we have

24     Mr. Scott's words, so I'm asking this gentleman, being aware of the

25     situation.

Page 27964

 1        Q.   So, sir, can you answer that question?

 2        A.   I think I can.  I think that drawing conclusions about ethnic

 3     cleansing and linking that to the activities of the ODPR would be wrong.

 4     I will give a number of reasons.  Firstly, in our documents, as far as I

 5     can see, we can see complaints from Bosnia-Herzegovina that the ODPR did

 6     not grant people the right to enter Croatia in -- every time.  So if you

 7     are ethnically cleansing then why don't you let people enter your

 8     country?  Why keep them where they were?  Secondly --

 9        Q.   Slow down a bit.

10        A.   Secondly, the ODPR was in no position to send anyone to a third

11     country without the consent of the person in question and the country in

12     question.  And so the -- if we were to make this conclusion, this would

13     be very discriminatory towards the governments of Germany, the

14     Netherlands or Turkey, Egypt, Sudan, Iran or Malaysia which countries

15     also accepted refugees.

16             All transportation, all departures of these refugees were

17     organised at an international level and the international community at

18     the time operated in Zagreb through another organisation, the

19     International Organisation for Migrations so that many countries,

20     including the USA, Canada, Australia and others, through that

21     organisation, also accepted people from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I do not see

22     how Dr. Rebic could have influenced or exerted influence on the Canadian

23     government to set a quota or any other government, for that matter, or a

24     quota saying how many people they would accept.  That was not our job.

25             What I would like to say is that throughout the time people were

Page 27965

 1     received in Croatia and people left for third countries, there was also

 2     the reverse direction, albeit limited, of return to Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 3     especially in 1995 when five European countries joined the

 4     German-Croatian agreement on the return of refugees through Croatia to

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Starting from March that year, this was done in

 6     accordance with the protocol and the agreement signed by the government

 7     in Sarajevo and the government in Zagreb.

 8             In March, I was not yet in the office, but later on that year, I

 9     was and saw the agreement and implemented it for two years.  It was

10     through that office that people returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina and that

11     can, by no means be called ethnic cleansing.

12        Q.   Very well.  Thank you, sir.  Now, I misspoke on page 41,

13     Your Honours, I believe it was line 2, I said the government of BiH, it

14     should have been the government of Croatia, just to correct that, to

15     correct myself, that is.

16             All right, sir.  Now, just one final question.  We know that in

17     May, June, July, there are all sorts of things that are happening in

18     Central Bosnia and you had indicated earlier, I believe it was to one of

19     the questions asked by the Bench that the situation was difficult and

20     there were complaints.  Could you please tell us how difficult was that

21     situation knowing that you have Croats that are now coming as refugees

22     along with Muslims that are coming as refugees and you have the fighting

23     going on.  Could you please give the Trial Chamber some indication of

24     what is really happening, how difficult the situation is, because, after

25     all, we need to have all of these events in context.

Page 27966

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, I think you forgot to mention the

 2     year.  You gave the months.  1993, probably.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  1993.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.  Thank you.

 5             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I was going to ask the same thing but

 6     when you suggest 1993, I think it was during 1992 this man was in

 7     position, not in May, June, July 1993.  He was no longer in that position

 8     so I assumed, I thought correctly, that Mr. Karnavas was talking about

 9     1992 which is the focus of this man's evidence.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, again I don't mean to be -- we're not

11     living in a bubble.  The gentleman was there, was in Croatia, and I can

12     paint a picture for the Court.  Imagine seeing people getting killed

13     and --

14             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, we don't need a long speech.

15     It's not --

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, that's my whole point --

17             MR. SCOTT:  We want -- Mr. Karnavas wants to make another speech.

18     Your Honour, I submit to the Chamber the Chamber has heard the testimony

19     of this witness.  The Chamber knows the Prosecution's been quite

20     transparent about its position on this timing and it's not appropriate

21     for this witness, this person, to give evidence concerning about these

22     detailed matters or any such things when he was not in that position.

23     And we've made no secret of that.  I simply want the Chamber to have fair

24     evidence and this witness has talked about the period up to March 1993

25     and then he comes back later in 1995.  Yes.  He may have had some limited

Page 27967

 1     ongoing connection but this witness has never testified, has never

 2     testified since yesterday about any extensive involvement in these

 3     matters in mid-1993 and I do object.  There's no basis for that.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may be heard very briefly on the matter.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may be -- if I may be heard, Your Honour,

 7     just for the sake -- because he was living in Croatia, he's in the

 8     situation.  He can see it.  I'm asking him as a human being as someone

 9     who was over there.  If I may be allowed -- we're hearing comments from

10     the peanut gallery now.  If I may be allowed to make my comment for the

11     record.

12             He is there.  You can take it for whatever weight you wish but he

13     is there.  I'm not asking him the situation in the camps, but in general,

14     the atmosphere.  Is this gentleman not capable of commenting in general

15     about the atmosphere in Croatia, be it dealing with the politics, dealing

16     with the transitional period?  Of course.  Now we're talking about huge

17     amounts of refugees coming from both sides and I'm asking him to give us

18     his impression from his experience.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please rephrase your question,

20     and that will be your last question since your time is up.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Can you please describe to us the situation, the atmosphere of

23     what it was like to be in Croatia at that period of time, May, June,

24     July, August, when you had Croats being driven out in Central Bosnia when

25     the conflict was occurring and Croatia is absorbing refugees both that

Page 27968

 1     are Muslims and Croats.

 2        A.   It wasn't easy to live in Croatia at that time.  We also received

 3     reports about massacres committed against Croats and it wasn't easy to

 4     stay aloof.  Many people, including members of the Croatian parliament

 5     and myself tried to go there and did indeed go there.  I went to Central

 6     Bosnia on several occasions and with all due respect to everybody

 7     present, I didn't see any of you there.  I was there.  And we tried to

 8     establish some links, open channels of communication, reach members of

 9     the BiH parliament.  And I was successful on one occasion.  I led a

10     delegation of my fellow MPs to Nova Bila which is a village in

11     Central BosniaCroatia had donated the funds to build a hospital there.

12     It was built and as the highest-ranking official, I was supposed to lay

13     the foundation for it and apart from Croatian officials, we also invited

14     representatives from Zenica, Doboj and other places under Bosnian Muslim

15     control to the ceremony.  I'm mentioning this as an example.  I asked the

16     colleagues to take me to Bugojno because it was practically impossible to

17     go there so I was taken there by Bosnian Muslims and they, in return,

18     asked me to take them Kiseljak because it was impossible for them to go

19     there and we asked them to take us to Vares because without their help it

20     wasn't possible for us.  And they asked me to take them to the part of

21     Vitez that was off limits for them and we did all that and talked to the

22     people and tried to set up channels of communication.

23             Eventually, we went to Mostar and I enabled them to have talks on

24     the western side and they and Mr. Kosnik who was the international -- who

25     was the international manager, the military officer in charge enabled

Page 27969

 1     them to cross to the other side so we were crossing front lines and that

 2     was dangerous but I believe that such activities contributed to putting

 3     an end to the conflict.

 4             We lived in such circumstances and we tried to do something to

 5     bring about peace and enable people to return.

 6        Q.   What was the period of this, so we have a framework?  What

 7     period, especially with Nova Bila because there are allegations that are

 8     allegations that we're trying to ethnically cleansing -- reverse ethnic

 9     cleansing of the Croats and now you're talking about building a hospital

10     there.

11        A.   That was around about the signing of the Washington Agreement, I

12     believe that was in the fall of 1994, probably or 1995.  I believe it was

13     in 1994.  Yes, why should we have invested so much money, so much of our

14     own money in the construction of a hospital and we also had people in

15     Zagreb and Split to receive training and specialist training and that

16     hospital is still open.  There are ethnic Croats and Bosnian Muslims

17     working there -- doctors, I mean, and there are also other medical

18     facilities specialised for the respective activities and I believe that

19     the existence of this hospital in Central Bosnia is the best evidence for

20     Croatia's wish for the people to stay there and return there.

21             I remember that a stone that weighed several tons was taken there

22     from Zagreb cathedral and we -- it bears an inscription saying that it is

23     the Croatian wish for the people who had been wounded to stay there and

24     live there.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you very much.  I appreciate your honesty

Page 27970

 1     and your forthrightness in answering all of my questions and if you would

 2     be so kind to do the same with my colleagues and questions that come from

 3     the Prosecution or from the Bench.  Thank you very much, sir.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  For the

 5     cross-examination, how are we going to deal with the other accused?

 6             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need some 15

 7     to 20 minutes to deal with two topics.  I don't believe I will need more.

 8     And Ms. Alaburic may need a little more than that.  The other Defence

 9     counsels, as far as I know, have not expressed a wish to interrogate the

10     witness.  [In English] I would kindly ask assistance of the usher to

11     distribute some documents.

12             [Interpretation] Your Honours, bearing in mind the Chamber's

13     guidelines in the ruling dated the 24th of April, 2008, my examination

14     can be classified as cross-examination.  I will refer to subjects that

15     have been broached in a way but I do believe that there are some

16     remaining details that merit further examination.  By your leave,

17     Your Honours.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

19        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zoric.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   My name is Mr. Kovacic, I defend General Praljak.  I thank you

22     for your willingness to testify.  I would like to ask you the following

23     question:  You worked in Croatia at the time in question between March

24     1993 and late 1995, you were an MP.  You said that at page 20, lines 10

25     through 14 of yesterday's transcript.  The first question that I would

Page 27971

 1     like to ask you is this, or rather, to speed things along a little,

 2     you've been handed the bundle of documents.  Can you please look at the

 3     second document in that bundle.  The number is 3D 01092.  Have you got

 4     that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Have a look.  It should be easy enough for you to recognise, this

 7     is a diplomatic note dispatched by Croatia's foreign ministry on the

 8     30th of April, 1993, to the embassy of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Zagreb

 9     in order to notify them of the desire by a multi-party parliamentary

10     delegation of Croatia to visit Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11             If you go to the second paragraph of that document, the purpose

12     of that visit is defined.  At the time, you were an MP.  We are looking

13     at the 30th of April, 1993.  Are you aware of this parliamentary

14     delegation?  Why was it set up?  Why did they want to go to Bosnia?

15        A.   As I said a while ago, this is about what was going on in Bosnia,

16     specifically Central Bosnia.  At the time, this was a foremost concern in

17     political terms in Croatia.  I'm aware of this initiative.  This, I

18     believe, was the first time ever that a parliamentary delegation like

19     this visited this neighbouring country.  They wanted to go there and see

20     for themselves what precisely was going on.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, do you know or do you remember any

22     specifics as to what had preceded this decision by the parliament to

23     dispatch this delegation and how did that come about?  Who brought this

24     about?  Can you tell us anything about that, sir?

25        A.   I think it was prompted by the development over there.  The

Page 27972

 1     excuse, as it were, for this was as follows:  Mr. Praljak, one fine day,

 2     turned up in front of the parliament and he started lobbying with the

 3     delegate.  I think there were other people with him but the -- he is

 4     quite a striking character and his physical appearance is difficult to

 5     forget.  He stood out in that group and he was talking to the delegates

 6     out in the hall.

 7             "It's nice to be in Zagreb.  There are lots of stories being

 8     bandied about, some of which are simply untrue.  Please go there, see for

 9     yourselves what's going on and help us put a stop to it."  Roughly

10     speaking, that was, in my understanding, the gist of what he was trying

11     to say.

12             This was followed by a session of the delegates.  One of the

13     conclusions that was reached was to set up a multi-party parliamentary

14     delegation to visit those areas.  Upon their return, they were to submit

15     a report.  I think this was the course of action that was eventually

16     taken.  Some of the areas were reached with the assistance of

17     international agents and international organisations had been informed

18     about this.

19        Q.   Just for the transcript to be perfectly clear, you say Praljak

20     was lobbying about them needing to go over there or down there.  When you

21     say "down there," I suppose that's a reference to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   All right.  What about the assistance of the international forces

24     bearing in mind of course the situation that prevailed on the ground at

25     the time, the checkpoints, the war that was going on, the checkpoints

Page 27973

 1     along the roads and so on and so forth.  Can you please look at document

 2     number 2.  This is 3D 00566.  It's a letter signed by Ivo Sanader, at the

 3     time Croatia's deputy foreign minister.  Again, we see the header, the

 4     stamp Republic of Croatia Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  It was sent to

 5     General Wahlgren who, at the time, was the UNPROFOR commander at the

 6     time.

 7             Is this document consistent with what you actually know, that the

 8     assistance of the international forces had been requested?

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. Wahlgren at the time was the commander of all the

10     international forces and the foreign ministry asked for their assistance.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  If we look at both these documents, they

12     both tell us who exactly the delegation comprised, a total of seven

13     persons.  I'm not reading their names now, it's not entirely necessary.

14     You see the parentheses there and -- but their party affiliations are

15     specified as well.  It is quite clear that we are looking at a

16     multi-party delegation including representatives of all the political

17     parties and can you tell the Court, the Court knows what the HDZ is, I

18     think that has been addressed sufficiently.  They know who HSLS are, and

19     the SDP and the other parties.

20        A.   Yes, this is a multi-party delegation.  Three members of the

21     ruling party, the remaining persons belonging to opposition parties, a

22     total of four.

23        Q.   Thank you very much.  More on this, if you could just look at the

24     last document in my binder, 3D 01091.  3D 01091.

25             Look at the title and look at the introduction.  That will suit

Page 27974

 1     my purpose for the time being.  It's a report of the multi-party

 2     parliament delegation of national assembly, the Republic of Croatia on

 3     the mission of goodwill in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We can all read the first

 4     paragraph so I'm not reading it out loud.  Is this the delegation that

 5     you are talking about?

 6        A.   Yes, this is the delegation that I was talking about except for

 7     the fact that one of the representatives of the ruling party was

 8     replaced, he was away on business somewhere and he was replaced by

 9     someone else but this is the same delegation.

10        Q.   I'm not going any further into these reports.  It is apparent

11     they had meetings over there.  They had talks.  They are specific about

12     the detail of those talks.

13             Just for the sake of the transcript, all these three documents

14     for the benefit of the Chamber have already been admitted into evidence.

15             Let me just go back to General Praljak's lobbying.  What you said

16     a while ago.  You told us what you thought was the gist of that.  Do you,

17     perhaps, remember whether General Praljak was given a chance to address

18     the parliament directly to address the delegates concerning this

19     discussion that was going on at the time, about the situation in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the possibilities of an improvement?

21        A.   I have no idea about that.  I belonged to a different chamber.

22     This was a chamber of delegates so we are looking at a different section.

23        Q.   All right.  That was what I was going to confirm.  Unless I'm

24     wrong, you were the member of the county chamber; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27975

 1        Q.   And this was for the delegates; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So logically --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could the speakers please

 5     be asked to speak one at a time.  Thank you very much.  The

 6     interpretation will then proceed.

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please stop.  There seems to be

 9     a problem, a technical problem.  Can you resume your answer?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember Mr. Praljak.  I remember

11     him from the lobby of the parliament.  I remember him -- seeing him in

12     the press room and outside the parliament too.  He's easy to spot.  He is

13     very direct when he speaks and he is very outspoken.  Not a difficult man

14     to notice.  It was a surprise for me when I first set eyes on there but

15     he was very graphic about he was asking people to do.  He didn't mince

16     his words.  He said, "Go over there, see for yourself what's going on."

17     That was the gist of what he was telling people.  I can't remember who

18     else was with him.  There were other people with him at the time but I

19     can't remember who specifically.  I am sure he was the one who played the

20     principal role in this situation.

21             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I think

22     that's sufficient and we can now move on to something else.

23        Q.   The next subject that I wanted to raise with you is this.  This

24     is something that was brought up several times during your chief.  First

25     of all, you mentioned yourself that you visited Bosnia-Herzegovina

Page 27976

 1     several times back in 1994 and 1995 on humanitarian convoys.  This is

 2     just to assist others.  The transcript reference, yesterday's transcript

 3     this is page 79, lines 19 through 22.

 4             Today, towards the close of your examination in chief, page 45,

 5     you mentioned a visit to Bosnia, that parliamentary group.  Therefore,

 6     the visit that we've been discussing so far, that was the first one and

 7     others followed; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, this was the first one and other visits

 9     followed at a later stage.

10        Q.   Thank you very much.  Just for the transcript, we have to wait

11     and avoid overlapping.

12             Okay.  Let's move on to something else now.  Towards the end of

13     your cross today, I think that's page 45 and there was something at page

14     21 and page 22, I think you mentioned something about soldiers, BH army

15     soldiers who, in some cases, individuals even visited their families in

16     Croatia.  Bearing in mind your job in the Office for Refugees and

17     Displaced Persons but also your position in the parliament, I'm sure you

18     were following the situation and you knew what was going on.

19             Sir, is it true that there were soldiers of the BH army who were

20     being accommodated in various medical institutions in Croatia, in

21     hospitals and rehabilitation centres?

22        A.   Yes, that was the case throughout the war and this particularly

23     applied to Split hospital.  They were admitting on a permanent basis many

24     wounded members of the BH army but it also applied to some extent to

25     Zagreb's hospital such as Rebro and the new hospital.  Many of them

Page 27977

 1     underwent surgery and were then moved on to rehabilitation centres, just

 2     like anyone else.  I think we're looking at quite a large number of

 3     people.  I wasn't following this situation very closely but I know there

 4     are reports that were written about this and I know that many of them

 5     were provided this type of medical assistance with a focus on Split

 6     hospital.  I think they have in-depth documents, they have case histories

 7     of each and every patient that was treated at the hospital back then.

 8        Q.   I apologise.  We need to make a pause.  Nevertheless, I'm really

 9     looking to get something else from you about what was going on, another

10     aspect of this situation.

11             These patients obviously are also receiving visits from family

12     members, from neighbours, from people from their home village.  Were

13     there refugees in Croatia also at the time, were you aware of cases such

14     as those?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You've mentioned this in a way, but let me raise this:  Those

17     people both the refugees and the soldiers who were in hospitals, they

18     were watching Croatian TV, reading Croatian newspapers, they were just

19     there.  And they watched the TV and they see their own side winning or

20     losing over in Bosnia; is that the case?

21        A.   Yes, that was the case.  We had cases, for example, where people

22     within the same facility were at the same time rejoicing and weeping

23     about the fate of their family members.  I witnessed a situation like

24     that and it really shattered me.

25        Q.   This was a complex situation.  It would be best, perhaps, to cite

Page 27978

 1     a number of examples to illustrate what exactly was going on.  You

 2     mentioned something about witnessing a situation like that yourself.  Can

 3     you please tell us more about it?

 4        A.   I'm talking about a facility near Makarska, an accommodation

 5     facility with refugees from Central Bosnia.  There were both groups

 6     there.  I'm talking about a family of a friend of mine who was a native

 7     of Vitez, his family was there.  They had lost a number of their

 8     relatives.  There were some other people who were also there at the time

 9     who had just caught wind of news that pleased them, that was in a way

10     favourable.  This was a difficult situation and they addressed me, they

11     came to speak to me and asked me to move them elsewhere.

12             It was in situations such as these that it was very difficult to

13     expect that people such as these should be kept together.  I put in a

14     word for them and asked them to be moved to a different facility.  I

15     asked for the Croats to be moved to a different facility.

16        Q.   Bearing in mind your background in terms of education, could we

17     perhaps say that incidents such as these gave rise not just to political

18     problems but also to social problems, if you like, that there were

19     ethical issues at stake?  Issues regarding human behaviour, if you like?

20        A.   That's quite right.  It's very give to keep your presence of mind

21     in situations such as these but it is at the same time indispensable.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I have information on an incident in a hospital in

23     Dalmatia.  There was another scene such as the one you just described,

24     someone won and someone lost and then there was some wounded Bosnian

25     soldiers around who sang for joy when they had heard something, some news

Page 27979

 1     that pleased them.  This led to an incident.  This was sometime in the

 2     summer of 1993.  Were you aware of this particular one or were you aware

 3     of perhaps other such incidents involving the same type of behaviour?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of this specific one but I am aware of there having

 5     been incidents such as the one you've just described.

 6             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I have no

 7     further questions.  Thank you very much.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

10             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could I please be given a

11     chance, Your Honours, to ask a single question?

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one.  Why?  Prompted by

13     what reason?

14             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Clarification.

15     Clarification of this situation.

16             We are sort of beating about the bush and I would like to ask a

17     more direct question regarding the same subject.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to discuss with my

19     fellow Judges.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I asked you something you did

22     not answer.  My colleagues are asking what the reason could be for a

23     question put by you based on the guidelines we issued, namely, that you

24     would have a personal technical knowledge of the issue, that you may have

25     met with the witness.  On what grounds would you be authorised to ask a

Page 27980

 1     question since that was the decision by the Trial Chamber.

 2             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] All I need is to shed some

 3     light on the situation, it goes like this.  There were refugees in

 4     Croatia in 596 different places in terms of there being facilities that

 5     were specifically set up.  Very often Croats and Bosniak Muslims were

 6     together.  Incidents occurred in places such as those.  To my knowledge,

 7     incidents were like this and I'd like to ask the witness whether he knows

 8     anything about that.  There were places where Bosniaks were celebrating

 9     certain victories of the BH army over the Croats and this constituted

10     unpleasant behaviour on their part.  So that is the gist of my question.

11     Were there celebrations going on whenever important victories were won by

12     the BH army in Central Bosnia, were these celebrations going on in

13     refugee centres across Croatia and how did the Croats who came from the

14     same villages and were in the same refugee centres view these

15     celebrations.  It's a simple enough question.

16             Once that is done, Your Honours, I would like to be given the

17     floor to address the Court about my right to conduct examinations.  I

18     remember your ruling and your ruling states clearly if having special or

19     personal knowledge, may I therefore please be allowed to address the

20     Court to find out exactly how far the restrictions imposed on me would go

21     and will it be within the Court's discretion every time to potentially

22     compromise my right to a fair trial.  Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  There are two

24     problems.  The first problem is that you want to ask a question of the

25     witness.  We're going to discuss this first issue.

Page 27981

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you wanted to put

 3     a question.  This is without any purpose because the witness already

 4     answered.  He said that there were incidents, there had been incidents

 5     linked to various events, for instance, that event in Bugojno, that was

 6     an example.  So he answered already.  Therefore, your question would not

 7     be of any additional value.  It is moot, and there is no reason why it

 8     should be asked.

 9             However, you wanted to address the Court and I'm going to ask my

10     colleagues again as to our decision.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, following this

13     discussion amongst the Judges, the Trial Chamber recalls that it handed

14     down a decision on the scope of the questions you are authorised to ask.

15     This decision was confirmed, was affirmed by the Appeals Chamber.  It was

16     handed down during the Prosecution case.  The Trial Chamber is of the

17     view that the same system should apply to the stage of the Defence case.

18     Of course you can always file a request in writing.  The Trial Chamber,

19     after it has heard the Prosecutor, will rule, and you can always ask for

20     a certification for appeal.  This is what I have to say.  It is a

21     decision by the Trial Chamber affirmed by the Appeals Chamber so your

22     right to ask questions is no way restricted all the more so since your

23     counsel could have further presented the issue you wanted to raise.

24             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the ruling

25     never says technical issues.  Can you please be more specific about the

Page 27982

 1     exact meaning of the words that you signed?  As far as I understood, this

 2     regarded questions pertaining to --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, I do not have the

 4     decision in front of me and I don't have the translation into your

 5     language of the decision.  If you have that translation, read it again,

 6     because in our minds, it was very clear.  Technical issues such as

 7     gunfire, anything related to the army in which you have a personal

 8     technical knowledge, you are entitled to ask questions.  As to a special

 9     knowledge you might have with regard to a witness and precisely I wanted

10     to ask a question of this witness and then you were on your feet and you

11     prevented me from asking the question.  Depending on the answer provided

12     by the witness, you could have then intervened.  All this is set out in

13     our decision.  You challenged it and the Appeals Chamber affirmed the

14     position by the Trial Chamber.  And I remind you, you know this better

15     than anyone.  There was a discussion within the Trial Chamber, I was in

16     favour of not restricting your right but my colleagues decided otherwise.

17     There is a majority that handed down a decision and I have to comply with

18     it.

19             This decision was affirmed by the Appeals Chamber.  The majority

20     decision of the Trial Chamber was confirmed.  That's all I can say.  I

21     can't say anything else.

22             Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

23             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think this is

24     the time for us to go into the specifics.  Your ruling is what it is and

25     I think we have so far remained in full compliance, especially during the

Page 27983

 1     OTP case.  We were in keeping with the ruling.  It defines what it

 2     defines; however, I cannot but state that towards the end of the OTP

 3     case, the Chamber's interpretation of that ruling was gradually and

 4     little by little becoming more restrictive until the Chamber said it loud

 5     and clear, military matters alone in relation to Mr. Praljak.  Well, that

 6     wasn't the spirit or indeed the letter of your decision dated May 2007.

 7             I'd propose we don't waste any more time on this now.  I will be

 8     filing a motion for this ruling to be reviewed, which is also my right.

 9             There is another thing that I have to say for the sake of the

10     transcript.  Bearing in mind the progress of this entire issue, bearing

11     in mind the reasonably comprehensive right that the accused was given at

12     the outset to take part in the cross-examination of a witness to a very

13     high degree, and given the ruling passed by the Chamber which took a more

14     restrictive approach, I appealed this but the Appeals Chamber turned me

15     away and said that the original ruling by the Trial Chamber should apply.

16     Despite all of this, the ruling was being interpreted in a more

17     restrictive manner and that's why I think it needs reviewing.

18             As a lawyer, however, at the same time, I'm afraid and I will be

19     open about this, of the possibility of another even more restrictive

20     ruling being passed.  I think the one that was passed in May last year,

21     although I did not fully agree with it, at least makes sure that the

22     accused enjoys a minimum of rights that he would enjoy in the run of the

23     mill European proceedings.  However, should there be increasingly a more

24     restrictive interpretation of the ruling, and that is my theory, that

25     that's what we see happening here, then we'll be running into more and

Page 27984

 1     more problems because we are turning the accused into an object of these

 2     penal proceedings, according to our theory, especially the continental

 3     law theory, he should be involved in the proceedings.

 4             Another matter altogether, of course, is if an accused wastes

 5     time by asking irrelevant questions.  Were that the case, the Chamber

 6     would have every right to put a stop to any such malpractice and save

 7     more time from being wasted.  I do, however, propose to bring this to a

 8     conclusion.  As far as my contribution is concerned, we shall be filing a

 9     special submission raising all these issues.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11     Mr. Praljak, your Defence lawyer explained to us that he is going to file

12     a motion explaining his reasons and he is going to do that later.  What

13     did you want to add?

14             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me add

15     that according to your ruling, which I know very well, whenever I have

16     special knowledge and when I'm involved, I am entitled to ask questions,

17     not only about military matters, although such a crystal-clear question

18     clearly refers to the right of leading an army only 20 kilometres away

19     from such events.

20             This is essential to my view of things.  I'm not accused only of

21     military actions.  The indictment says that I am the connection between

22     the Croatian part of the joint criminal enterprise and it doesn't say

23     only military but also politically.  And I'm not only a soldier, but in a

24     way, I engaged myself almost to the point of forcing the Sabor delegation

25     to go down there.  And I remind you that it says if the individual was

Page 27985

 1     involved in the events or has a special knowledge.  It isn't only general

 2     knowledge.  It's also the frame -- prevailing frame of mind and

 3     everything else pertaining to the chaos down there.

 4             I ask you once again to allow me to ask the question to be

 5     crystally clear.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was going to talk about it.

 7             Witness, I wanted to ask you the following question.  You've told

 8     us as an MP and we've learned that you were a member of the High Chamber

 9     whereas there's also the Chamber of Representatives.  You have heard

10     Mr. Praljak lobbying and we also know that you yourself have been there.

11     You've been there because the counsel showed us some documents stating

12     that other MPs went on the premises as well.  So I wanted to ask you some

13     questions before the intervention of Mr. Praljak.

14             Do you personally know Mr. Praljak?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew him.  He lived in

16     Zagreb and I had known him since 1990 when he first stepped out into

17     public.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Second question:

19     When you were in Central Bosnia, and we know that you were there during a

20     period while -- where warring parties were warring, so to begin with, who

21     were you taken care of, by the HVO or by the BiH?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We never acted on the behalf of

23     either one or the other side.  We were always acting on our own behalf

24     but we needed the assistance of both parties to reach some areas.  We

25     didn't have big problems with the HVO, but when we came as far as Prozor,

Page 27986

 1     for example, we often had to negotiate and seek contact with all parties

 2     to be let to pass through.  And we involved everybody from who we

 3     expected assistance and we tried to make our stay there public because it

 4     was a sort of guarantee for our safety.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Amongst the

 6     contacts that you had, did you have a contact, for instance, with

 7     Mr. Praljak either in writing, on the phone, orally, through someone?

 8     Did he play a role so that you and your MPs were able to go there?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not in my particular case.  He

10     may have played a role but I'm unaware of it.  Anyway, I didn't ask him

11     for any such services or favours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So during your

13     stay, you never had any contacts with Mr. Praljak; is that right?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  While he was in his position,

15     while he led the HVO or whatever he did, I don't know, I'm not a military

16     expert, he certainly was an important personality there, but I never had

17     contact with him about these issues.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, talking about the ABiH,

19     who was your contact there?  Who was your main contact in the ABiH?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were never able to reach high

21     ranking people.  We always negotiated with the local commanders or

22     directly with the soldiers at checkpoints.  Most times we had to speak

23     with local commanders, and there were always many local commanders, and

24     speak to the soldiers at the checkpoints themselves to let you pass.

25     Sometimes they would do so; sometimes not.  Sometimes they would order us

Page 27987

 1     to return or, then again, they would say, Wait until the situation calms

 2     down, et cetera.

 3             To us, the local commanders were always the most important people

 4     or their immediate superiors.  I never contacted high level commands.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Just for clarification, the introduction to this

 6     series of questions was linked to the mission of parliamentarians but you

 7     of course are speaking of other visits which you paid to Bosnia because

 8     you were not, as far as I can take from the documents, a member of the

 9     parliamentary delegations although you were an MP at the moment.  Is that

10     correct?  Could you confirm?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was indeed not a member of that

12     delegation although I was an MP.  This delegation left in an organised

13     fashion, supported by international forces that had been notified, as

14     well as the BiH embassy in Zagreb.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you very much

17     for your answers.  We are now going to give the floor to Ms. Alaburic.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning -- good afternoon,

19     Your Honours.  Good afternoon, everybody.

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Zoric.  My name is Vesna Alaburic and I am

22     Defence counsel of Mr. Milivoj Petkovic.  Tell me, did you know

23     Mr. Petkovic?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Can you describe the circumstances in which you got to know him?

Page 27988

 1        A.   I got to know him through his career.  He was a public

 2     personality and he was present in the media so I learned about him and on

 3     some occasions, we met in person but I cannot say I know him well.  I

 4     know that he was a soldier and I know roughly what he did.

 5        Q.   Good.  I do not think I will need to speak to you long, but we

 6     need to clarify some details.  You explained to us here that Croatia was

 7     a signatory to the International Convention on the Status of Refugees and

 8     to the protocol on the status of refugees from 1967, do you remember?

 9        A.   Yes, Croatia was indeed a signatory.  The convention was from

10     1957, I believe, and the convention from --

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I recall what my learned friend Judge

12     Prandler was going to say.  Wait so the interpreters can translate the

13     answer before you continue speaking because you were again overlapping to

14     an extent that was hardly manageable even to these excellent interpreters

15     that we have.  I want to pay homage to them and support them.

16             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Yes.  I would like to confirm that I am of the

17     same views, but I also would like to say that actually the

18     Geneva Convention was concluded in 1951 and not in 1957.  For the record

19     I would like to add.  Thank you.

20             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for these

21     instructions which I hope we will follow.  And thank you, Judge Prandler,

22     for this correction.  The witness stated correctly that the convention

23     was from 1951 and the protocol from 1967.

24        Q.   Mr. Zoric, let us try and see when Croatia became a party to

25     these international documents.  Do you know that Croatia through the

Page 27989

 1     notification about succession from the first day of its independence on

 2     the 8th of October 1991, became a party to many international agreements

 3     including agreements on the status of refugees?

 4        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that but Croatia, upon the request of the EU,

 5     suspended its declaration of independence for a period of three months

 6     but I think that under all international conventions of the UN, including

 7     the ones we've mentioned, that Croatia became a party to these

 8     conventions after it was admitted as a member of the UN.

 9        Q.   My apologies to everybody in the courtroom, but, Mr. Zoric, I

10     believe that you made an inadvertent mistake.  Can we agree that Croatia

11     declared its independence in July 1991, but the three months' suspension

12     was proclaimed in July 1991 and that it expired in October 1991 so that

13     we celebrate our day of independence in October 1991; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   Can we then agree that through the notifications on succession,

16     the Republic of Croatia as from the first day of its independence became

17     a party to these international agreements?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Good, I just wanted to clarify.  Tell us, Mr. Zoric, do you know

20     that international agreements under the Croatian constitution are part of

21     the Croatian legal system, of course, provided that Croatia is a party to

22     those agreements?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know that under the Croatian constitution, such

25     international agreements have greater force, take a priority over

Page 27990

 1     Croatian legislation, national legislation?

 2        A.   Yes, I know that international legislation takes priority over

 3     national legislation.

 4        Q.   I would like to remind you of a very important document which you

 5     discussed extensively with Mr. Karnavas.  You needn't waste time looking

 6     for this document, it is document 1D 2626, and of the set of documents

 7     submitted by the Defence of Jadranko Prlic, under number 4, the dynamics

 8     of the refugee crisis, it is said that the Republic of Croatia was faced

 9     with a huge number of refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina from the April of

10     1992 onwards.

11             Can you confirm that this is correct?  That from April 1992,

12     Croatia was faced with a wave of refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13        A.   That is correct.  In three or four months only, the number rose

14     by over 200.000.

15        Q.   In paragraph 4, their exact data of this growth in April, there

16     were already over 190.000; in August, over 360.000; in December, over

17     370.000 and so on.  According to your knowledge, are these accurate data?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Let us now together establish which regulation on refugees was in

20     force when Croatia started to be faced with the wave of refugees.  Please

21     take a look at your set of documents.  Document number 4D 1232.

22             A remark to the Trial Chamber.  The Law on the Movements and the

23     Stay of Foreigners is not translated entirely but only up to Article 43

24     so I consider it necessary to refer to that piece of legislation to show

25     how Croatia regulated the status of refugees.  I do not intend to discuss

Page 27991

 1     individual provisions in any detail with the witness.

 2             Mr. Zoric, please take a quick look at Article 22 which speaks

 3     about the stay of foreigners based on the recognised status of refugees.

 4     And then the entire chapter 5, refugees, in other words, Articles 31

 5     through 38, and there are other articles also.  My question with regard

 6     to this is:  Is it correct that getting the status of refugee in the

 7     Republic of Croatia was regulated by the Law on the Movement and Stay of

 8     Foreigners which I have referred to?

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   If we look --

11             MR. SCOTT:  I apologise in advance if I've missed it.  Do we have

12     an English translation of any of these materials?  No.  Okay.  Thank you.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat.  I am very sorry

14     that the law is not translated in it's entirety.  I announced yesterday

15     that in my cross-examination, I would be referring to this law.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Again you say in it's entirety.  Can you point

17     out the parts that are translated?

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] It is translated up to and

19     including Article 43.

20             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I just wanted to help Ms. Alaburic and say that

21     the law had been translated into English here and we find it here.  And

22     also, actually, in the very first part of it in Article 2, it refers to

23     the refugees, the meaning of the refugees and also to the fact that it is

24     being based on the 1951 Convention of the Status of Refugees and the 1957

25     Protocol on the Status of Refugees.  I would add that that protocol was

Page 27992

 1     adopted in New York in the framework of the United Nations while --

 2     whereas the 1951 Convention was adopted in Geneva by the states who

 3     participated in that diplomatic conference.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please,

 5     Ms. Alaburic.  We have a problem.  In your binder, we have the document

 6     4.131.  There's also the document 4D 1232.  And that document is not

 7     translated.  In other words, I don't have the translation in English of

 8     that particular document.  So when you are mentioning section 22 and

 9     section 22 of which document?  We don't have the translation in English

10     and it's also not in e-court.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may go on.  What we have is the Law on

12     Asylum but I suppose it's not the same, is it?

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in my set of

14     documents, there are two laws.  One is the Law on Asylum and the other is

15     the Law on the Movement and Stay of Foreigners.  The Law on Asylum is

16     translated into English.  It was passed in 2003 and that law overruled

17     some articles, some provisions of the Law on the Movement and Stay of

18     Foreigners which was passed in 1991, and the provisions overruled pertain

19     to refugees.  The law that I do not have translated is the

20     latter-mentioned Law on the Movement and Stay of Foreigners.  I said that

21     I had an English translation of the first half of that law and if you

22     want to establish that Chapter 5 indeed deals with the issue of refugees,

23     I'm willing to put this document on the ELMO.  I didn't deem that

24     necessary.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I don't know what

Page 27993

 1     you wish to highlight by putting these questions to the witness.  If your

 2     questions are of paramount importance, then you have to make sure that

 3     the Judges have the English version of the text.  How can we give a

 4     probative value of a text that we do not see, we don't have a translation

 5     of that text and you're going to present some fragments and portions of

 6     the text.  This is what I don't understand.

 7             When you prepared the cross-examination of this witness and if

 8     you want to raise some very important points that could have an impact on

 9     us and this trial, please come to trial with translated documents.  We --

10     you know what we are doing.  We can look at the text from section 1 to

11     the last section.  We of course -- we're not sitting here with crossed

12     arms and listening to you.  We're sitting here but we're also looking at

13     the document and I scanned the documents from back to back, in fact, so I

14     scanned the document to see if you did not omit to mention something.

15     But if you show me a document in your own language and if I cannot do my

16     job, then all I have to do is just sit here with my arms crossed and wait

17     for your next question.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said right away

19     that I do not intend to analyse laws with this witness who is not a

20     lawyer by profession.  I submitted this law for a simple reason.

21     Yesterday, we spoke about the Law on the Status of Refugees and Displaced

22     Persons and the Chamber asked a number of questions from which I

23     concluded clearly that they do not understand based on which basis people

24     from Bosnia-Herzegovina were granted the status of refugees because the

25     law that had been submitted pertained only to citizens of the Republic of

Page 27994

 1     Croatia and events taking place in Croatia.

 2             It is my intention for this witness to say that the status of

 3     refugee was regulated in the Law on the Movement and Stay of Foreigners.

 4     We have a -- the translation of half that law.  I do not tender that into

 5     evidence because it isn't entirely translated but we intend to do so and

 6     then tender it into evidence.

 7             For the purposes of cross-examination, it suffices for this

 8     witness to say to you, Your Honours, that the -- getting the status of

 9     refugees for persons of Bosnia-Herzegovina was regulated by the Law on

10     the Movement and Stay of Foreigners.

11             What is additionally important for me is to establish that this

12     law was passed in June 1991, that it came into force on the 8th of

13     October, 1991, namely on the day of -- when Croatia became independent.

14     And now the issue I wanted to discuss with the witness whether, at the

15     moment this law was passed, anybody expected that Croatia would be faced

16     with such a refugee problem, refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So it was

17     my intention to point out which law regulates what and then I can enable

18     you to consult that legislation, if you deem it necessary, once it has

19     been translated.

20             You can see that I'm telling the truth in document 4D 1231, which

21     is the Law on Asylum and which exists in an English translation, and in

22     its final article, Article 72, it says which provisions of the Law on the

23     Movement and Stay of Foreigners are being overruled by this new act and

24     that these provisions pertain to refugees.  This is all I considered

25     necessary to state about this.

Page 27995

 1             So I just merely wanted to point out which Croatian

 2     legislation regulated these issues.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, I must join the Prosecution --

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I think Mr. Scott was on his feet before you.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  I didn't see that.  I didn't see that.  I didn't

 6     see him.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I absolutely accept that.

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

10     Your Honour, I will make clear at the outset I'm not raising the

11     slightest question whatsoever about counsel's good faith or good

12     intentions.  There's no question about that in my mind at all.

13             However, there is a fundamental problem here and that -- and

14     again, I take counsel absolutely at her word but she's just represented

15     to all of us in the courtroom that the very law that is not translated is

16     apparently the law that she says applies despite after a day and a half

17     of evidence and those of us in the courtroom who do not speak Croatian

18     don't have that law available to us.  I can't ask questions.  I can't

19     conduct cross-examination based on that and unless -- I mean, I don't

20     want to read back but I think what counsel's told us in the last few

21     minutes is that everything we've been talking about for the last day and

22     a half, the status of refugees in Croatia is regulated by this law that

23     we don't have a translation of.  How can it possibly be more central than

24     that?  And I can't conduct -- I can't go forward and conduct a

25     cross-examination when I don't have a document that I can work with.

Page 27996

 1             Again, I know it's difficult to prepare all these documents, the

 2     Prosecution faces the same situation, but I can't possibly go forward

 3     without a translation.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I also wish to join the Prosecution

 5     in their objection because I am entitled to redirect and if I understand

 6     Ms. Alaburic has indicated that we don't know what we're doing here.  As

 7     you've noted, I've shown Dr. Rebic's letter which referred to the

 8     decision which was in the Official Gazette, the specific paragraphs which

 9     at least in Dr. Rebic's mind that was the law that applied.

10             Also, if you look at the timing of it because after this, you

11     have a decree then you have the decision.  We heard why the decision was

12     necessary.  And so if Counsel Alaburic wishes to take us on, then I

13     suggest that she provide us with an English translation.  Far be it for

14     me as a foreigner to discuss Croatian law; but as lawyer, I think I'm

15     pretty capable of reading this and so is my colleague.  And I would

16     object to her characterisation that this was the law that applied versus

17     the law that we showed, both the decree and the decision, especially

18     given that Dr. Rebic refers to the decision in his letter and his answer

19     to Ambassador Turkovic with respect to why certain individuals were being

20     sent back to Bosnia-Herzegovina when it appeared, at least to Dr. Rebic,

21     the situation there had calmed down and therefore they no longer enjoyed

22     the status of refugees.  So I would say unless we have an English

23     version, I would object to any further questioning on this matter.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, this issue of the

25     legal status of refugees is not a novel one.  For months already or

Page 27997

 1     months ago, I can't remember which witness, it was I personally had said,

 2     asking this of the Defence, I'd asked them what were the legal

 3     instruments that were applicable in the Republic of Croatia governing the

 4     state of refugees.  I myself had asked the question and I remember

 5     quoting the Geneva Conventions but I'd asked what was the applicable

 6     Croatian law.  I'd raised the issue.  That was months if not over a year

 7     ago.  And today, you appear to say something which is fine, you may be

 8     right, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but then you have to come

 9     prepared with the translation into English of this law so that precisely

10     the Judges may ask questions.  The Prosecutor objected because he said

11     that if he wants to cross-examine, he needs the text; and Mr. Karnavas

12     has just said that he, too, wants to have that text in his language.  So

13     that's the situation as it is now.

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may, I'd just

15     like to offer an explanation.  I was going to call my own witness to talk

16     about refugees and the Law on the Status of Refugees by that time

17     certainly would have been translated into English.  It was because you

18     raised the issue yesterday, not just because Judge Antonetti had raised

19     the issue but also because of the kind of answer that Mr. Zoric provided

20     when he said that it wasn't just the Decree on the Status of Refugees and

21     Displaced Persons but rather that there were also regulations defining

22     the status of all foreigners.

23             I was preparing my cross-examination yesterday and I decided to

24     ask the witness this question.  I thought it would be fair to raise this

25     law, to refer to it, invoke it, but I'm not going to delve any deeper

Page 27998

 1     into that; it was just a foundation for my next question.  My next

 2     question is about the status of refugees and displaced persons which is

 3     something that was in force when he was still in office and the document

 4     is 1D 2588.  This is in the set of documents handed to you by the

 5     Prlic Defence team.  Can you please have a look.

 6        Q.   My question is:  Can we agree that this document was in force

 7     until October 1993 when a new law was passed, the one that you discussed

 8     yesterday when prompted by Mr. Karnavas?  2588.

 9        A.   Yes, we can agree on that.

10        Q.   Look at Article 26 that Mr. Karnavas invoked in relation to this

11     law and the Article is contained in this provision, the provisions of

12     Article 13 through 19 of this decree shall be applied in an appropriate

13     way to refugees.  Can we therefore agree that in Articles 13 through 19

14     of the decree what we see defined there is assistance for refugees?

15        A.   Yes.  Articles 13 through 19 tell us about the sort of assistance

16     that refugees would be provided.  Article 26 says that both refugees and

17     displaced persons should be treated in this same way.

18        Q.   So was this the legal basis for displaced persons in Croatia to

19     be enjoying exactly the same rights as refugees from Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina, those who left Bosnia and Herzegovina to go to the

21     Republic of Croatia?

22        A.   Yes, that was the legal foundation for that.

23        Q.   All right.  Let us go back to 1D 2626.  I'll read the relevant

24     portion for you so you don't waste any time looking for it.  This is

25     section 5, paragraph 5, it reads, "In Croatia there exists and there

Page 27999

 1     existed from the very outset of the humanitarian and refugee crisis a

 2     unified system under which one was looking after the refugees from both

 3     Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina not discriminating based on their

 4     ethnicity.  All refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina regardless of their

 5     ethnicity received the same treatment and same status."

 6             Mr. Zoric, can you confirm that this conclusion I just read out

 7     to you is accurate?

 8        A.   Yes, I can.  The conclusion is accurate.  If I may just be

 9     allowed to add a couple of words.  Given the context that we're talking

10     about, we often only discuss refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina, be

11     they Croats or Bosniaks or Muslims; however, over in Croatia, as

12     statistics show, we had not a major amount of Serb refugees, but there

13     were some Serb refugees and there were Jewish refugees who fled Sarajevo.

14     They were part of Sarajevo's Jewish community.  Therefore, if you asked

15     me about my preference, we -- I would like to discuss persons who are

16     refugees.  It is not entirely necessary to talk about their ethnic

17     background in purely humanitarian terms.

18        Q.   Were our indictment not worded the way it is, to the effect that

19     Croats were doing something to undermine the Muslims, I would be all too

20     happy to agree with you.  This way I have to talk about the various

21     ethnicities.

22             Over 360.000 people had already reached Croatia from B and H by

23     August that year, refugees.  Can you please go back to my set of

24     documents.  I'm talking about the agreement on cooperation dated the 21st

25     of July, 1991, by Izetbegovic, President Izetbegovic and President

Page 28000

 1     Franjo Tudjman.  Can we please look at item 3 of the agreement.  This is

 2     P 0339.  It's in my binder.  It's a document that we've already seen

 3     quite often in courtroom.  Paragraph 3 or Article 3 reads, I quote, "The

 4     state delegation of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina expressed

 5     their gratitude to Republic of Croatia for admitting and absorbing

 6     refugees from the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to an extent that is

 7     far above its real potential, realistic potential or capacity."

 8             Mr. Zoric, did people from the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 9     often express their gratitude to the Republic of Croatia because of the

10     good care that was taken of their refugees in Croatia and because of the

11     assistance that they were provided?

12        A.   I don't remember a single meeting occurring with

13     President Izetbegovic without him repeating this over and over again.

14     Therefore, any time there was a meeting, whenever there was a meeting

15     with President Izetbegovic this was one of the topics that were raised

16     and then gratitude was always expressed.  It was always something that

17     was an incentive and a very encouraging thing to hear.

18        Q.   All right.  Let -- it reads on, "The Republic of Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia are now facing the burning issue

20     of mass expulsions, particularly of the Muslim and Croat populations of

21     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They will continue to cooperate in putting up

22     refugees in the Republic of Croatia as well as in other countries.  They

23     will continue to cooperate in collecting the humanitarian aid for

24     refugees.  They will continue to build refugee centres in safe areas

25     throughout B and H and they will continue to work on the return of

Page 28001

 1     refugees from the Republic of Croatia to the Republic of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina.  For that purpose, a special protocol on cooperation will be

 3     signed."

 4             Mr. Zoric -- Mr. Zoric, can you tell us whether you know whether

 5     such a protocol on cooperation was signed?

 6        A.   Yes, protocol on cooperation was signed and there were later

 7     protocols that dealt more with the return of refugees.  The first ones

 8     were mostly about refugees being provided accommodations and assistance.

 9     I think the first protocols date back to the first half of 1995 that talk

10     about cooperation in terms of the refugees being allowed to return.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you please look at 3D 2710 in my set of documents, this is a

13     General Praljak Defence document, protocol on cooperation of the

14     government of the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina on dealing with the problem of refugees from B and H.

16     This was signed on the 22nd of July, 1992.  It was signed by the

17     following:  The prime ministers, Franjo Greguric and Jure Pelivan.  Can

18     you look at the protocol, please, and they you can tell us whether this

19     is the protocol that we've been talking about.

20        A.   This is the protocol that we've been talking about.  It's a

21     result of this agreement and one thing that I must point out is that if

22     you look at who has signed this document, it says Franjo Greguric, who

23     was then prime minister, but the signature actually belongs to his deputy

24     Mate Granic, who, at the time, was in charge of business such as this.

25        Q.   Can you please look at Article 4 of the protocol it says that ...

Page 28002

 1             MR. SCOTT:  I regret that it seems to always fall to me.  I would

 2     be happy to share the burden with anyone else in the courtroom but unless

 3     I'm the only one, I don't have an English translation of this exhibit.

 4     And if anyone else does see this, I mean, all kidding aside, I would

 5     appreciate not being the only one who has to raise these objections.

 6     Thank you.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we run checks, we've

 8     checked the Praljak Defence documents and we ascertained that this was

 9     one of the documents that were still being translated.  This is a

10     document that has not been translated yet, therefore, it cannot be

11     tendered.  However, I don't think this constitutes a sufficient reason

12     for us to not discuss this document right now.  We can have it placed on

13     the ELMO, if necessary, and then we can try to interpret any points that

14     we deem necessary.  All that I'm interested in right now is item 4.  I

15     will try to read it and then the interpreter can easily interpret this

16     for us.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

18     continues] ... would be faster.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Indeed.  Article 4 reads, "The

20     government of the Republic of Croatia and the government of the

21     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall seek an increase in

22     international aid from the international community especially as regards

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It shall also ask for more refugees to be

24     admitted by neighbouring European countries, refugees who it will not be

25     possible to provide assistance for in Bosnia and Herzegovina itself.  The

Page 28003

 1     republic, the government of the Republic of Croatia is not in a position

 2     to cover the costs of transport or indeed international humanitarian aid

 3     that is being shipped into Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 4        Q.   Mr. Zoric, based on this it would seem that the two governments

 5     spoke and they agreed to address Europe because the situation was this:

 6     There were more refugees coming and Croatia could no longer absorb these

 7     new refugees.  They were now to be sent to third countries.  Is my

 8     understanding of this protocol is correct?

 9        A.   Yes, I think your understanding of this protocol is correct.  The

10     governments did meet.  The Croatian government on the one hand and the

11     Bosnian government on the other addressed European countries.  It was

12     something that was widely debated in international conferences that there

13     was contact in progress about this and some European governments

14     responded to this request.  They came up with specific quotas in terms of

15     how many refugees would be admitted ranging from Hungary, Austria,

16     Germany to Italy, Denmark, the Netherlands, as well as a number of other

17     European governments that I've been mentioning here.  It was through the

18     mediation of international organisations that they expressed their

19     willingness to admit a certain number of people.

20        Q.   All right.  If we go back to Defence document -- Prlic Defence

21     document 1D 2626, if you look at Article 4 of that document, paragraph 6

22     of Article 4 and I will read it to you.  It reads:  "Following an appeal

23     that was launched by the government of the Republic of Croatia in

24     July 1992 to countries of western Europe to admit and take in Bosnian

25     refugees, a section of a huge refugee convoy from Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 28004

 1     will be heading west through Croatia."

 2             This appeal that I'm referring to here, is that appeal in keeping

 3     with the protocol signed by the presidents or prime ministers of the two

 4     countries?

 5        A.   Yes, that appeal is perfectly in keeping with that protocol.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now tell me this, we're talking about July, the middle of

 7     1992.  Mr. Zoric, sometime halfway through 1992, Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 8     are there any armed clashes going on between Muslims and Croats, I think

 9     there were none; right?

10        A.   No, none had erupted by this time.  At least none that I was

11     aware of.

12        Q.   Can we therefore conclude that the departure of refugees from

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina for so-called third countries halfway through 1992

14     and at later stages as well by it's very nature could not have been a

15     result of some clashes between Croats and Muslims?

16        A.   Yes, that is a perfectly logical conclusion.

17             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  This

18     concludes my cross examination.  I apologise yet again for having to use

19     documents that have not been yet translated, but as I said, there was

20     simply no other way to go around this.  Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have completed your

22     cross-examination.  I think on the Defence side nobody else had any other

23     questions which means that after the break, Mr. Scott, you can start your

24     cross-examination.  Yes, Ms. Nozica, is this the way things are going to

25     unfold or am I wrong?

Page 28005

 1             MR. NOZICA: [Interpretation] You're not off the mark,

 2     Your Honour.  There is just one thing that I would like to raise before

 3     the break.  This document that was used today in chief by Mr. Karnavas,

 4     the number being 1D 02626, is already an exhibit and the number is

 5     2D 00486.  Just a note to avoid confusion about this document being

 6     admitted.  I think it will probably be used quite often and I think it's

 7     important to point this out now before we get into any further confusion

 8     surrounding this.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

10             MR. SCOTT:  I'm just waiting for the translations -- the Judge's

11     comments haven't been recorded.  Well, anyway, I'll go ahead.

12     Your Honour, I just wanted to make for the record just so, again, that

13     there's no argument or waiver or why I didn't raise it before that in

14     connection with Ms. Alaburic's examination and these other follow-up

15     examinations, the Prosecution continues its opposition to leading and

16     directive questions by the supplemental examinations.  The Prosecution

17     will be filing -- making a written submission on that and just lest

18     someone comes back and says that we've waived that or didn't raise it,

19     I'm going to make it clear that continues to be our position.  But we

20     will make a written submission.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 20 minutes' time, we shall

22     resume our proceedings and you'll have 45 minutes for the beginning of

23     your cross-examination.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

Page 28006

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.  You

 2     may proceed, Mr. Scott.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to everybody

 4     in the courtroom, counsel, and Dr. Zoric.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Scott:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   Dr. Zoric, I'd like to jump straight away into the question of

 9     refugee status and I will tell you that I'm also going to be drawing back

10     upon your testimony in the -- what we call the Tuta-Stela or

11     Naletilic/Martinovic case.  And you recognise the difference, do you not,

12     between someone who is "a refugee" and someone who is a "displaced

13     person."  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, I think I spoke a great deal about that yesterday, didn't I.

15        Q.   And further, you recognise and, in fact, in the Tuta case you

16     said there was a "big difference" between someone who has "refugee status

17     and someone being a foreigner."  Is that correct?

18        A.   I'm not sure what sort of difference you're talking about.

19        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that someone who has been granted refugee

20     status has substantial number of rights, at least on paper, as opposed to

21     someone who is only considered a foreigner in the country?

22        A.   No, they both have the same rights but there could be other

23     differences such as origin, language, ethnicity.  In terms of rights, I

24     believe they have the same rights.

25        Q.   Well, sir, in your Tuta-Stela testimony, you testified that there

Page 28007

 1     was a "big difference" between refugee status and someone being a

 2     foreigner.  If someone is a refugee, the country is "bound to provide him

 3     with accommodations, schooling for the children, medical treatments, and

 4     all the rest that is necessary so that such a person is taken care of for

 5     life."  Of your testimony.  Then went on to answer that, "A foreigner,

 6     that is a person in Croatia who does not have refugee status did not,

 7     does not have those rights."

 8             Now, are you giving a different answer today than you gave in the

 9     Tuta-Stela case?

10        A.   I don't have the transcript in front of me so therefore I can

11     hardly be expected to comment.  A foreigner could be a tourist, a

12     student, a businessman, a foreigner is a person who comes from another

13     country.  A refugee is a person also who comes from another country but a

14     person who enjoys certain rights once their status as a refugee has been

15     recognised.  Therefore, there can be certain differences.  There are

16     certainly big differences between mere tourists and refugees.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Just a point, Your Honour, if Mr. Scott will be

18     referring to portions of the transcript from the previous testimony, I

19     would respectfully request page and line.  I do have it in front of me in

20     anticipation of his cross and so if he could be so kind.  I'm sure he's

21     going to quote accurately just so I can follow.

22             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.  For the record I was just

23     now referring to the testimony of the witness at page 11018 of his

24     previous sworn testimony.

25        Q.   Sir, you did say there that it was a "big difference" and I take

Page 28008

 1     it you've now modified your initial answer today to say, well, yes, in

 2     fact there are differences, refugees have rights, foreigners do not.  Is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   Foreigners have rights too, but they don't have the rights that

 5     refugees have.  Regardless of that, I don't see why I should change what

 6     I said before about this.  I think what I said before is consistent with

 7     what I'm saying now.  I'm using plain language to put my point across,

 8     I'm not using legalese and I'm speaking in colloquial terms and my

 9     understanding is time is a valuable commodity in this courtroom.  I'm

10     trying to keep my answers short.  What I said then I would say today.

11        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Zoric.  Let me be very clear then and I'm trying

12     to be fair to you as well so let me be very transparent.  I, for these

13     purposes, am not going to be speaking generically or broadly.  When I'm

14     going to use the word "refugee" for purposes of my cross-examination,

15     other counsel can do what they wish, but when I talk to you this

16     afternoon and probably tomorrow, when I use the word "refugee," I'm

17     talking about someone who has been granted refugee status under Croatian

18     law.  That's what I'm talking about, all right.

19             MR. KHAN:  Well --

20             MR. SCOTT:

21        Q.   Can we agree on that, Dr. Zoric?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I don't know if it assists.  Perhaps

24     the -- it may save time.  The ambiguity perhaps, at least to me, appears

25     to stem not from refugee but what is meant by rights.  Of course there

Page 28009

 1     are rights conferred under the Criminal Code, the Penal Code, and there

 2     are peculiar specific rights conferred by the Geneva Convention on

 3     Refugees, and, Your Honours, perhaps if one is specific on the question

 4     to what type of rights one is talking about, we may get clarity on the

 5     issue and no confusion.  I don't know if it helps my learned friend.

 6             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, counsel.  That could be a source of

 7     confusion.  If it is, I apologise for that.

 8        Q.   Sir, I'm speaking specifically in the context of refugees and

 9     I'll just simply, again, use your own words when you testified previously

10     on page 11017 that if someone who has been granted a refugee status, the

11     country granting that status is "bound to provide him with

12     accommodations, schooling for the children, medical treatment, and all

13     the rest that is necessary so that such a person is taken care of for

14     life."

15             Those are the rights I'm talking about now.  And someone who is

16     not a refugee, who has not been granted refugee status, does not have

17     those rights.  Correct?

18        A.   Someone who has not been granted refugee rights could enjoy the

19     right to an education or to receive assistance in some country.  There

20     were people in Croatia who did not have refugee rights but they were

21     entitled to an education and especially to medical assistance.

22        Q.   Well, let's again, as one of my colleagues likes to say, let's

23     proceed then step by step and I'm talking now about perhaps some kind

24     soul in Croatia gave them food, provided for some educational benefit,

25     I'm talking now about the law of the state of the Republic of Croatia.

Page 28010

 1     And while someone might have given someone some benefit, a person who was

 2     from outside the country who was in Croatia who was not the granted the

 3     status of a refugee did not have the legal right, under Croatian law, to,

 4     as you said again, "... accommodation, schooling for the children,

 5     medical treatment, and all the rest that is necessary so that such a

 6     person is taken care of for life."

 7        A.   We have a foreigner in Croatia and this foreigner is a refugee,

 8     then pursuant to the laws envisaging the answers to these questions, they

 9     would be receiving assistance.  What happens in other countries other

10     than Croatia, I mean, they might have different regulations with greater

11     or lesser privileges.  But it's also --

12        Q.   Let me cut across you because, as you say, time is precious, and

13     if I'm not being clear, I apologise to you.  My questions now are -- I'm

14     talking about the Republic of Croatia.  Several times now, you've given

15     answers to what happens in other countries, you can't say.  For the

16     moment, with all due respect, sir, I don't care about any other country.

17     I'm talking about the Republic of Croatia.

18             You are also going in circles because a moment ago when you just

19     answered, "If we have a foreigner in Croatia and this foreigner is a

20     refugee ..." that begs the question, sir, you can have foreigners in

21     Croatia, physically in Croatia that have not been granted refugee status

22     under the law; correct?

23        A.   Which exact foreigners do you mean?  Can you explain?  Do you

24     mean foreigners who came to Croatia, asked for that status but weren't

25     granted it or foreigners who came to the sea side?  I don't know which

Page 28011

 1     ones you mean.

 2        Q.   Dr. Zoric, we've been talking since yesterday for some hours now

 3     about refugees and displaced persons.  I'm not talking about tourists.

 4     If a person from Bosnia and Herzegovina during wartime conditions arrived

 5     in the state of Croatia and for whatever reason was not granted refugee

 6     status, was not considered a "refugee" and I told you a moment ago, when

 7     I say refugee, I'm talking about someone who's been granted legal status

 8     as a refugee under Croatian law, if they are not granted that status then

 9     they do not have the rights that you previously listed yourself; correct?

10        A.   Persons who have been granted refugee status who, due to the

11     wartime activities in Bosnia and Herzegovina and came to Croatia all have

12     the same rights but in Croatia at the time, there were also persons who

13     did not have that status.  Fortunately, not all parts of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina had been affected by the war so that there were areas

15     from which people came for other reasons but didn't have refugee status.

16        Q.   All right.  We'll continue on for a moment and see if we can come

17     at this maybe a slightly different way.

18             Maybe you can assist the Chamber with this, just as a point of

19     general information before we continue.  I understand, based on what

20     you've said before, that in the beginning, approximately 70 per cent of

21     the refugees or -- excuse me, let's say to avoid confusion.  In the

22     beginning, 70 per cent of the persons coming from BiH under these

23     conditions were Muslims.  This later changed to approximately 50/50

24     Croat/Muslim; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The first refugees to arrive in Croatia

Page 28012

 1     were from eastern Bosnia and from around Prijedor.  The arrival of

 2     refugees corresponded to the development of military activities either

 3     immediately preceding the activities or during those activities.  There

 4     was an especially extensive arrival of refugees after cease-fire

 5     agreements had been signed because most towns only then civilians were

 6     willing to leave.  So the refugees who had first arrived in Croatia were

 7     mostly Bosnian Muslims but then the proportions changed due to the events

 8     in that country.

 9        Q.   And further, it is correct, is it not, that of the total -- of

10     these total persons coming from Bosnia-Herzegovina, approximately half

11     came from what might be described as Serb-controlled areas, parts of the

12     country, and about half came from areas controlled at that time by either

13     the so-called Croat or Muslim sides?  Correct?

14        A.   Yes.  There is precise data about that, although from a military

15     point of view, it may be necessary to scrutinise which territory was

16     controlled by which forces.  But -- people even coming from areas

17     controlled by the ABiH could be refugees.  Due to the harsh conditions

18     and being afraid of shells coming from areas controlled by their forces,

19     they were also refugees and we were unable to establish precisely those

20     boundaries or delimitations.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  So the answer to my question is approximately

22     half came from Serb-controlled areas and approximately half came from

23     Croat or Muslim areas; correct?  Yes or no?

24        A.   At certain periods, that might apply, I'm not sure about which

25     periods we are talking.  But precise data can be found in reports

Page 28013

 1     submitted to this Court.

 2        Q.   Well, sir, what I just quoted you is what was your testimony in

 3     the Tuta-Stela case at page 10973.  Now, we can agree and I think

 4     everyone in the courtroom has agreed over these past two days that by the

 5     spring, then, the late spring of 1992, the situation with persons coming

 6     from Bosnia and Herzegovina was such that Croatia was already running out

 7     or had run out of accommodation.  Is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  We constantly had problems with accommodation because even

 9     the accommodation we had was deteriorating in quality with time due to

10     the long stay of people there.

11        Q.   And is it correct -- isn't it correct, sir, that on the --

12     because of those -- at least in part because of those conditions, that

13     situation, on about the 13th of July, 1992, Croatia announced that it

14     would not accept any more refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina in terms of

15     giving them, as I said, "refugee status"?

16        A.   Yes.  At that time, Croatia made public that our resources are

17     fully exhausted and the government appealed to international

18     organisations to become more involved in this problem.  After receiving

19     aid and additional capacities, we continued granting refugee status to

20     everybody who could meet the conditions for that status.

21        Q.   I would like you -- you should have a binder there, sir, which

22     should be tabbed in a similar fashion to the exhibits that you were

23     looking at for the Prlic Defence and others, perhaps.  If I could ask

24     you, please, to turn to P 10406.  I hope that they've all been provided

25     to everyone in the courtroom at this point.  P 10406.  If you look behind

Page 28014

 1     it, sir, you should be able to find a Croatian language version.  If you

 2     don't have it, please let me know.

 3             On the topic that I just raised with you a moment ago, this is an

 4     article from the Reuters news service dated the 13th of July, 1992.

 5     Starting off with the statement, "Croatia said on Monday it would not

 6     accept any more refugees from war-torn Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 7             If we go in the English version it's the first line on the second

 8     page, but I'm not sure about in the Croatian language, sir, but if you

 9     scan down the article, you will see, I believe, your name, "Damir Zoric,

10     senior secretary of Croatia's Committee for refugees said funds and

11     supplies were scarce.  'It is unbearable,' he told Reuters.  'It is not a

12     question of good will.  We don't have anywhere to put these people.'"

13             And then at the end of the article it concludes with this, "The

14     government statement said that refugee camps would now serve only as

15     transit centres and that the new ruling would be enforced by the interior

16     ministry."

17             Now, does the situation as reported in this Reuters article, is

18     that an accurate description of the situation at that time?

19        A.   I believe I stated correctly that the situation was unbearable,

20     if I understand English well enough, and that it isn't our good will that

21     is the problem, but we have nowhere to put those people.  Every public

22     appearance of mine was useful for all of us because it was a way of

23     motivating people all over the world to help us and so did this public

24     appearance of mine.  But even after this, we did admit people and granted

25     them refugee status which is a fact that can be verified easily.

Page 28015

 1             MR. SCOTT:  If you can be provided with the Prlic Defence binder,

 2     if I can have the assistance of the usher, please.

 3        Q.   If you have that, sir, can you please turn to 1D 02606.  Again,

 4     if you can't find it, please let me know.  My apologies, that's not the

 5     right one.  Give me a moment, please.  2607, my apologies.  2607.  My

 6     staff has corrected me, Your Honour.  2608.  2608.  I'm not sure how that

 7     happened but ...

 8             Dr. Zoric, if you can bear with me, please, and if you can find

 9     2608.  Now, this is a letter written later that I think may have been

10     shown to you during the Defence questioning dated the 29th of October,

11     1992, concerning what's been referred to and what is referred to here as

12     a "one-time financial assistance."

13             Now, if I can direct your attention, please, to paragraph

14     numbered 1, it says, "To strictly obey" -- they ask the regional offices

15     "To strictly obey the stipulations of the Government of the Republic of

16     Croatia as regards approving or non-approving the refugee status to those

17     refugees who have arrived to Croatia before July 13, 1992."  And isn't it

18     a fact, sir, that that date continued to be a very important date that

19     persons who had arrived before the 13th of July, 1992, could receive

20     refugee status and those who arrived after the 13th of July, 1992, were

21     not given refugee status?

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, before he answers the question, I

23     would ask that the Prosecutor read the rest of that paragraph or I can

24     read it for him.  "It is because there have been some irregularities."  I

25     think it's within that context.  So maybe now he can answer the question.

Page 28016

 1             MR. SCOTT:

 2        Q.   My question, Dr. Zoric, is the same:  Isn't it correct that

 3     persons who arrived before July 13th, 1992, and assuming they could

 4     otherwise meet the criteria, those persons who arrived before that date

 5     were granted refugee or could be granted refugee status, but persons who

 6     arrived after that date were not granted that status?

 7        A.   Persons who arrived later could also be granted that status.  It

 8     is difficult for me to say which irregularities are specifically being

 9     referred to but we tried to prevent people from getting that status if

10     they were not entitled to it such as forging documents to be included and

11     the -- in aid schemes or people who were from areas not affected by the

12     war.  I believe that this is what Dr. Rebic means by irregularities but

13     Croatia did grant refugee status even after that date.

14        Q.   I'll refer you back to your testimony a moment ago and as

15     reflected in part or at least as consistent with the Reuters news

16     article, "As of the 13th of July, 1992, Croatia announced that it would

17     grant no more persons refugee status."  That statement said nothing about

18     irregularities, it said that, we will no longer accept and take refugees.

19     Isn't it -- I go back to my question, sir.  After -- persons arriving

20     after the 13th of July, 1992, were not given refugee status; correct?

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I'm going to object on the grounds

22     that it's been asked and it's been answered.  The gentleman did indicate

23     that they were granted, now he can accept it, he can accept that answer

24     or not.  Now, I don't mind him asking it again but I believe that

25     Mr. Zoric has answered the question.

Page 28017

 1             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, he answered -- he gave an answer and

 2     then he changed his answer with the reference to the irregularities.  A

 3     few moments ago, he said, he agreed with me that on the 13th of July,

 4     1992, there would be no more refugees.  Then now he said, well, based

 5     upon something about irregularities, and that's not what he said

 6     previously so I'm trying to come back and clarify that.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, with all due respect and I understand

 8     that under cross we can get a little excited but --

 9             MR. SCOTT:  I don't need to be lectured by Mr. Karnavas,

10     Your Honour.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm not lecturing the gentleman.  He was pointed

12     to one document.  He indicated, yes, that's what it says, however, we

13     continued to provide status to them.  That was his answer.  It's in the

14     record.  He was then asked again and he was pointed to this document.  I

15     asked for purposes of completion, in fairness to the gentleman, that it

16     be put into context.

17             Now, the question can be asked again one more time and let the

18     gentleman give an answer but I don't think that there is an

19     inconsistency, and the record speaks for itself.  It's in the record.  I

20     don't wish to complicate matters.

21             MR. SCOTT:  I don't think there was anything unclear about my

22     question but let me --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

24             MR. SCOTT:  -- state it again, sir.

25        Q.   You appeared to add, if I heard you correctly, you appeared to

Page 28018

 1     comment a few moments ago that refugee status was stopped as of the 13th

 2     of July, 1992, and then I think I heard you say that at some point in

 3     time in the future, it was granted again; that is, people were given that

 4     status beginning at some future time.

 5             Now, if that's your answer, and we'll come back to that in a

 6     moment if he we need to, but if that's your position, can you tell us

 7     when refugee status began once again to be granted to persons arriving

 8     from Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9        A.   That is difficult for me to provide an answer now, but I am sure

10     that there is extensive documentation to that effect.

11        Q.   Well, sir, I'm going to have to ask you to do your best.  You've

12     answered extensive questions on behalf of Defence counsel and I want you

13     to do your best to tell us when refugee status was again granted, 1995?

14     1996?  Please assist us.

15        A.   No, it was that same year that we continued granting refugee

16     status.  But I cannot give you an exact date.  It would be very difficult

17     for me to do so now.

18        Q.   Can I ask you, please, to turn to, in the Prosecution binder,

19     P 10407.  In the Prosecution binder, I think I see you have the right

20     one.  Thank you.  Sir, this is a letter or a communication signed at

21     least over the name of Mr. Rebic who we've talked about extensively in

22     the last day and a half.  And did you have -- looking at this document,

23     did you have occasion to see communications like that or perhaps to even

24     prepare some similar communications yourself prior to the time that you

25     became a member of parliament?

Page 28019

 1        A.   Yes, I have seen similar documents.  This is a document by which

 2     the office gave its approval to anyone to stay in Croatia temporarily but

 3     that somebody did not apply for refugee status.

 4        Q.   Well, this is dated the 9th of April, 1993 --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I was told that this

 6     document is not part of the e-court system.

 7             MR. SCOTT:  I don't know, Your Honour.  I'll have to ask

 8     Ms. Winner.  It should be.  Our records show that it is.  If you want me

 9     to provide you with hard copy, I can do that but -- or we can put it on

10     the ELMO.

11             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I can't find it either so we're having

12     the same problem.  Is it 10407?  Is that ...

13             MR. SCOTT:  10407.  So I don't have a clean copy I'm afraid.  Can

14     someone provide me with a clean copy.

15             If we can look on the ELMO, sir, and I'll just indicate that, and

16     everyone in the courtroom I'm sure will correct me if I'm wrong, this is

17     a letter as I mentioned the a moment ago dated the 9th of April, 1993,

18     and I'm directing your attention to the second page.  In connection with

19     these individuals, the letter makes a very specific reference to -- that

20     while these persons will be allowed to come into the country, "Pursuant

21     to the decision of the government of the Republic of Croatia of 13 July

22     1992, the above mentioned persons cannot request or be granted a refugee

23     status in the Republic of Croatia."

24        Q.   Now, this is April 1993, some nine or ten months after that

25     decision and that decision, sir, continued to be in effect and was still

Page 28020

 1     used to deny people refugee status in Croatia for a long period of time;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   We must bear in mind that Croatia already has around 300.000

 4     displaced persons as Croatian citizens and 300.000 refugees which makes a

 5     total of 600.000.

 6        Q.   Can you not tell me whether it was good or bad will or how many

 7     people were in Croatia.  We've all understood that there was a lot of

 8     people coming from Bosnia-Herzegovina into Croatia.  I don't question

 9     that.  You needn't remind me of that.  This document says that these two

10     individuals be allowed to come into the country but the letter is very

11     clear and explicitly stating that according to the law dated 13 July

12     1992, they will not be granted refugee status; correct?

13        A.   But, Mr. Prosecutor, this document reads that these persons from

14     Jablanica wanted to go to Zagreb for some reason, that somebody sent them

15     an invitation from Zagreb, and the details are mentioned here, the

16     address.  As far as I know, Jablanica was controlled by the army of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina during the whole war.  I don't see why anybody should

18     be a refugee fleeing from their own army.  These persons asking for this

19     permission were Bosnian Muslims.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Scott.

21             Witness, the Prosecutor asks you so-called directive questions.

22     That is something he's allowed to do.  And they are questions which call

23     for an answer, yes or no.  I have followed this and I do not think that

24     one single time you have actually answered the question.  Every time, you

25     took the floor, you started an excursion upon some kind of explanation.

Page 28021

 1     I can very well understand your urge to do this and I have had an

 2     experience, it's the same with me.  Unfortunately, these rules are rather

 3     strict and we lose quite an amount of time because you do not, for

 4     reasons that I really understand, but you do not conform -- confirm to

 5     this rule and that makes the task for the Chamber more difficult than

 6     would -- than it is anyway.

 7             So if I may ask you to respect these rules, we would be very

 8     grateful.  Thank you.

 9             MR. SCOTT:

10        Q.   Sir, just to clarify so we can go forward, so that we have your

11     answer.  You're telling the Trial Judges under oath that you did not

12     consider Jablanica in 1993 to be a war area?

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, excuse me, excuse me.  He's

14     mischaracterizing the evidence.  He said it was controlled under the army

15     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that's number one.  Number two, there's nothing

16     here to suggest that they were requesting and that they were denied.  We

17     don't know why they wanted to go to Croatia and go to some place else but

18     I think that Mr. Scott is assuming facts which are not in evidence.  The

19     document is what it is, but I don't think that we can say that somehow

20     they were -- they were -- they asked for refugee status or they were

21     denied but they were merely given this permit to go through.

22             So he needs to lay a predicate.  And I don't think that we can

23     conclude -- we cannot conclude from the second paragraph that there was a

24     request and that there was a denial.  I don't see that in the facts, and

25     perhaps I can be assisted.

Page 28022

 1             MR. SCOTT:

 2        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with the concept that -- during the time

 3     that you were associated with these issues were you familiar with a

 4     concept of someone obtaining a so-called letter of guarantee and a

 5     transit visa, some permission to travel or pass through or to the

 6     Republic of Croatia or is that a completely new concept to you?

 7        A.   I'm familiar with such documents.

 8        Q.   And do you say, sir, that in the first page of this document that

 9     it says, right under the subject and et cetera, "The Office for Refugees

10     and Displaced Persons of the government of Croatia agrees to allow entry

11     and temporary residence for the following persons ..." it gives the names

12     of the individuals, the place from which they will travel, Mostar, "The

13     above-mentioned person will be provided with full financial support and

14     accommodation by the following individual."  One could take that in the

15     light of what we've come to understand as the guarantee and then the

16     Rebic letter goes on to make it very clear, however, that while that will

17     be allowed, we want to make it very clear these persons are not being

18     given refugee status.

19             Now that's what the letter says; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And wasn't that in fact --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

23             Witness, I'm following carefully and reading carefully this

24     letter.  Mr. Rebic will testify as well, and we will be able to put him

25     questions but Mr. Karnavas is very right when he says that nothing tells

Page 28023

 1     us in this letter that these people requested a refugee status.  There is

 2     no evidence to that effect.  They did not ask for a refugee status even

 3     if, in the last sentence, it says that, "In accordance with the decision

 4     of the 13th of July 1992, the above-mentioned people would not receive a

 5     refugee status."

 6             I notice that this document has to be shown at the checkpoint and

 7     I wondered the following:  So we have these two people, they live in

 8     Mostar, because we see that they are from Mostar.  They want to go to

 9     Zagreb.  And somebody will put them up and it's the name of the person

10     that appears here.  So they want to live in Zagreb for a certain amount

11     of time but we don't know how much.  I would like to know if the office

12     was capable of giving these types of temporary documents for these people

13     to stay in Croatia.  Because look at the memo under subject, there is

14     reference to a temporary residence.  So these people will -- would not

15     stay in Croatia for the rest of their lives.

16             I would just like to know if this office was authorised to

17     deliver temporary permits to foreigners who wanted to come and spend some

18     time in Zagreb.  People who had a certificate such as this one but who

19     would never obtain a refugee status and that in order to allow them to

20     cross the border they had to show this document at the checkpoint.

21             I would like to know if this is something that you are familiar

22     with, if what I'm describing to you is exactly how it is.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think you're

24     entirely right.  The office declares here that they've received the

25     letter of guarantee from someone in Zagreb.  The office also declares

Page 28024

 1     itself willing to have this person arrive in Croatia; however, the office

 2     also claims that nothing was sought from it.  Therefore, these do not

 3     constitute sufficient reasons to grant refugee status.  The office had no

 4     power over the border police.  The office simply said that it would in no

 5     way oppose the arrival of those persons.  The office, however, also

 6     stated that they didn't believe those people should be recognised as

 7     refugees and that was as far as its remit went.

 8             Had the documents shown been different, the reply by the office

 9     would also probably have been a different one.  I don't know to what

10     extent people are familiar with language issues here, but this is in the

11     passive voice, not in the active voice.  The office agrees that entry

12     should be granted.  It's not about the office itself granting entry, it's

13     about the office agreeing that access or entry should be granted which

14     means that a suggestion is being made to whoever is in charge.  We in no

15     way oppose this.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We shall stop here

17     because it is the end of our working day.  We will resume tomorrow at

18     9.00 a.m.

19             I wish you all a good afternoon.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.

21                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th of May, 2008

22                           at 9.00 a.m.