Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28429

 1                           Thursday, 22 May 2008 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

 6     case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, good afternoon in

 8     and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor

 9     versus Prlic et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Today is Thursday,

11     May 22nd, 2008.  Let me greet the witness, the Defence counsel, the

12     accused, everyone assisting us in and around the courtroom as well as the

13     Prosecutor.  We will now proceed with the testimony and the

14     cross-examination of the witness.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear.  I cannot hear the

16     interpretation.

17                           WITNESS:  ADALBERT REBIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine it's working now.  The

21     Prosecutor has two hours and nine minutes left.  Let me remind you that

22     today we'll finished at 25 past 6.00.  If there aren't any administrative

23     matters to deal with, I'll give the floor to Mr. Scott immediately.

24             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Your Honours, good

25     afternoon.  Good afternoon, counsel, good afternoon everyone in and

Page 28430

 1     around the courtroom.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Scott:  [Continued]

 3        Q.   Sir, the next topic -- and good afternoon, I should say,

 4     Dr. Rebic, excuse me.

 5        A.   Good afternoon to you too, Mr. Scott.

 6        Q.   I would like to turn from the topic of the law concerning

 7     refugees which we ended the day with yesterday to the topic of Croatian

 8     citizenship and I heard you testify on Monday that essentially anyone who

 9     said "I am Croat," was given Croatian citizenship.  I think that's the

10     way you put it; is that correct, sir?

11        A.   What is correct is that anyone could obtain Croatian citizenship

12     who was able to show the institution granting citizenship, which was the

13     Ministry of the Interior, proof that - and I'm referring to persons from

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina - that they had declared themselves as Croats

15     before and they could prove that by showing a school certificate, for

16     example, because in the former Yugoslavia, ethnicity was recorded on

17     school certificates, or they could use some other document to prove that

18     in which ethnicity was stated.  This applied equally to citizens of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina who were Muslims.

20        Q.   All right.  Well I'm going to double-check the quotation, and

21     I'll come back to you with that in a moment.  I think you were rather

22     direct what you said on Monday about that, but let's turn to Exhibit

23     1D 02918.  Should the -- I believe it's in one of the Defence binders but

24     I may not -- it may be in both actually.  It should be in the Prosecution

25     binder if that assists the usher, my apology.  It may be in both.

Page 28431

 1             Now, there is two aspects of the Statute that I would like to

 2     discuss for a few minutes.  This is the Law on Croatian Citizenship which

 3     was I think first adopted around the -- or effective the 26th of June,

 4     1991.  There were amendments in 1992 and 1993 which I understand did not

 5     impact or have an effect on the two portions that I am interested in at

 6     the moment.

 7             If I can ask you, please, to look to Article number 8, Article 8.

 8     This appears to be a provision, sir, that would apply -- what I would

 9     consider to anyone, anyone anywhere in the world who for whatever reason

10     wanted to obtain Croatian citizenship by a process of naturalization

11     would be able to follow these procedures, apply under this law, and

12     under -- if they satisfied the requirements of Article 8, they had the

13     possibility of obtaining Croatian citizenship; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, I would like to next ask you to look directly at Article 16.

16     If you look at this, there's a specific provision which provides that,

17     it's quite short so I'll just read it, "A member of the Croatian nation

18     who does not have domicile in the Republic of Croatia may obtain Croatian

19     citizenship if he or she meets the conditions from Article 8, paragraph

20     1, item 5 of this law and if he or she issues a written statement that he

21     or she considers himself or herself to be a Croatian citizen."

22             Is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, there appear to be then two requirements.  One is -- one

25     refers us back to Article 8 which we looked at a moment ago to section 5

Page 28432

 1     or paragraph 5 of Article 8.  That requirement says, provides, "That a

 2     conclusion can be derived from his or her conduct that he or she respects

 3     the legal system and the customs in the Republic of Croatia and that he

 4     or she accepts the Croatian culture."

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.  And speaks the Croatian language and the Latin script and

 7     so on.  There are several clauses.

 8        Q.   Not under section 5; correct?  That's another section.

 9        A.   Yes, yes, you're right.  Yes.  So this is about respecting the

10     legal system and customs of the Republic of Croatia.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, if we go back to Article 16, or stay on Article

12     16, it makes reference here and at least the way it's been translated

13     into English, it says, "A member of the Croatian nation."  Now, can we

14     understand that to mean a member of the Croatian people?  How would you

15     explain the term that's used there?  What is a member of the Croatian

16     nation in that context as distinct from citizenship in the Republic of

17     Croatia?

18             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] This is an insult.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, Mr. Praljak,

20     you've already taken the floor on umpteenth occasions about this.  The

21     Prosecutor is free to say what he wants.  You may not agree with him, but

22     on the day you testify, you will be able to develop your own position.

23     No need to start protesting that way.  We are perfectly aware of your

24     position.  You've already outlined it for us.

25             If the Prosecutor wants to make such a statement, he is perfectly

Page 28433

 1     entitled to do so.  During the presentation of your case when your

 2     witnesses come to testify or when you come to testify, because you've

 3     told us that you are going to testify, you will be able to deal with this

 4     matter.

 5             Please let the Prosecutor put his question and the witness will

 6     answer and the answer of the witness may be amenable to you.

 7             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please, this

 8     is not a protest.  I simply want to know what is on trial here.  Is it

 9     talking about the Croatian language?  Are we going to deal with Hego

10     [phoen]?  How far are we going to go?  For ten years, in Switzerland if

11     someone wants to get citizenship, they make sure that he washes the

12     dishes that he does the dishes after dinner and here, someone just has to

13     be a member of the Croatian people.  This is an insult on every ground.

14     It's not a protest of mine.  What are we talking about?  What is this

15     trial about?  Thank you.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, if I may, I do -- I believe the

17     objection is on relevance, and the witness has indicated that the

18     Ministry of the Interior was dealing with this issue.  I don't believe

19     that there was testimony on direct examination that he -- that his

20     department was issuing Croatian citizenships to anyone.  He hasn't been

21     qualified as an expert on the law.  I fail to see now -- there will be, I

22     can assure the Trial Chamber, that there will be in the very, very near

23     future someone who has dealt with this particular law and these questions

24     should be addressed to that person, not -- so I do object on the ground

25     of relevance.

Page 28434

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Coric.

 2             THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] May I please leave the

 3     courtroom.  I am not feeling as well and I need medical assistance.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No problem.  Please call the

 5     Tribunal's physician for Mr. -- and that Mr. Coric should be escorted out

 6     of the courtroom immediately.

 7                           [The accused Coric leaves court]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Mr. Scott, please

 9     proceed with your cross-examination.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, but I do have an objection

11     and I would like a ruling.  If this is relevant, I would like to know how

12     is it relevant so I do need -- request a response.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In order to understand your

14     objection, we need to find out what the question is and what the answer

15     of the witness is.  You are perfectly right, Mr. Karnavas, the witness is

16     not a lawyer, and he may not be familiar with the law on citizenship in

17     Croatia.  There's no doubt about this.  However, as a Croatian national,

18     he may have some information about this matter.  Let's wait and see what

19     he has to say.  If what he has to say is of no relevance, then the

20     probative value will be nil.  If it's not the case, then we'll receive.

21     Let's listen to the question and then to the answer of the witness.

22             Mr. Scott, please repeat your question because we've lost track

23     of it after all these exchanges.  Please put your question again.

24             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Before I do that, and partly

25     to respond to some of the comments that have been made, let me go back

Page 28435

 1     and -- now I have found the exact passage from Monday's testimony which

 2     indicates that indeed it was raised in direct examination, that this is a

 3     witness who works directly in the area of the status of people, refugees,

 4     and displaced persons.  If he's not qualified to talk about these topics,

 5     then it conflicts directly with the responsibilities he's held for some

 6     five or six years, but this is what he said on Monday, in any event when

 7     asked about, by the Defence:

 8             "At that time," at page 28202, "At that time it was enough for a

 9     Muslim from Bosnia-Herzegovina to show the department of the ministry of

10     interior any document, a driving licence, a school certificate, which

11     said that he had declared himself to be a Croat at some time ipso facto

12     he had the right to a Croatian certificate of citizenship and Croatian

13     documents."

14             That's what he said and that was not -- that was in response to

15     Defence questioning on direct examination.

16        Q.   Sir, I'm now showing you a document which is itself a Defence

17     Exhibit 1D 02918.  And there was nothing intended to be offensive about

18     my question to you.  When we look at Article 16 the way it's been

19     translated to me is that it says, "A member of the Croatian nation."

20             Now, I've also seen another translation of the name provision

21     which says, "A member of the Croatian people."  Now, all I'm saying here

22     is we're talking here about something that's different than Croatian

23     citizenship.  Obviously if one had Croatian citizenship -- being a member

24     of the Croatian nation is having citizenship, there's no reason for the

25     Statute.  If you had citizenship you wouldn't be applying for it.  So it

Page 28436

 1     says, "A member of the Croatian nation who does not have domicile in the

 2     Republic of Croatia may obtain Croatian citizenship ..." these two

 3     requirements.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Mr. Coric's

 5     counsel wants to take the floor.

 6             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be

 7     given a break of two or three minutes, the guards are calling me to come

 8     outside.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I was about to suggest

10     that you go see your client.  Please do.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Scott.

12             MR. SCOTT:

13        Q.   Picking up from what we've covered, sir.  When I read those two

14     provisions in this context concerning a person who does not have a

15     domicile in the Republic of Croatia, it strikes me that establishing that

16     you respect the legal system and customs in the Republic of Croatia and

17     that you accept Croatian culture for someone who doesn't live there and

18     saying that you consider yourself to be Croatian is essentially one and

19     the same thing, isn't it?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

21     Mr. Coric's counsel will give us some news about her client.

22             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we move

23     into private session, please?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session, please.

25                           [Private session]

Page 28437











11 Page 28437 redacted. Private session.















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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

22             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Dr. Rebic, a lot has happened in the last 45 minutes or so so let

24     me go back to -- if you still have Exhibit 1D 02918, The Law on Croatian

25     Citizenship in front of you, Article -- and again looking primarily at

Page 28439

 1     Article 16.  And I believe my pending question to you was something and

 2     it's no longer of course on the screen at this point, but my question was

 3     something to the following effect and that is:  Since Article 16

 4     specifically addresses the situation, we're talking about someone who

 5     does not have a domicile, does not live in Croatia, but would apply,

 6     obtain -- would like to obtain Croatian citizenship, how would such a

 7     person demonstrate that he or she respects the legal system and customs

 8     in the Republic of Croatia and that he or she accepts the Croatian

 9     culture other than a written statement, I suppose, certification to that

10     effect?

11        A.   Mr. Scott, first of all, I'm quite taken aback to find myself in

12     a position to offer legal interpretation of Croatian legislation.

13     Secondly, the Office for Refugees and Displaced Persons held no

14     competencies in terms of giving or taking away the citizenship from

15     anyone, we simply did not deal with such matters.  However, as a

16     layperson, I may still offer a clarification concerning a statement I

17     gave to the Defence.  In order to understand that, one needs to know that

18     in the Croatian language, there are two expressions, one is drzavljnstvo,

19     citizenship, the other one is narodnost, ethnicity.

20             The Croatian citizenship be can be received by both members of

21     the Croatian people, the Serbian people, or any of the other minorities,

22     these being Czechs, Slovaks, Italians, Hungarians, et cetera.  As regards

23     the Muslims, one also needs to know that many Muslims in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina declared themselves as Croats.  It had been like that

25     for decades.  That is why those Muslims who felt themselves to be members

Page 28440

 1     of the Croatian people living outside the borders of the Republic of

 2     Croatia, of course in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as in other countries of

 3     the world, those people who felt themselves to be Croatian, not as of

 4     yesterday or dating back to their father but generations back, those

 5     people who declared themselves to be Croatian and believed to be part of

 6     the Croatian culture, when such a person had to flee to Croatia, which by

 7     that time had become an independent state, giving Croatian citizenship

 8     although it had existed in some shape or form in the former Yugoslavia,

 9     that person was entitled to a Croatian citizenship by virtue of not only

10     an oral statement but also by a piece of paper, a document.  That could

11     have been a certificate, a school certificate, a military booklet in

12     which I also stated I was Croatian alongside my colleague, Ibro

13     Ibrisimovic, who also declared himself to be Croatian.  I am not speaking

14     as a lawyer, I am speaking as someone who is rather familiar with

15     history, with the situation in my homeland.

16             So I ask you, how do you deny that person the feelings they have

17     and something they've always stated all along.

18        Q.   Let me be very clear about this, and there was no reason for

19     anyone to outburst or for anyone to take offence before.  It was a

20     question which you've now attempted to answer and I have a couple

21     follow-up questions, but no one is intending to insult you or anyone's

22     Croatness so please, we should take that as a further starting point.

23             The point is, sir, how is someone -- no.  Listen to my question.

24        A.   Mr. Scott, Mr. Scott.  No offence taken.  No offence taken.

25     However, I wanted to add another thing.  Being Croatian does not include

Page 28441

 1     faith or religion.  A Croatian could be Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim,

 2     Protestant, et cetera.  One should never think that there is a sign of

 3     equation between Croatian and Catholic.  It includes Croats, Muslims, and

 4     other ethnicities.

 5        Q.   Let me go back to the question now that you've given us that

 6     further explanation.  Thank you.

 7             Let me go back to my specific question.  You have a person, and

 8     I'll use your example, of a Muslim, who is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He has

 9     never lived in Croatia before, ever before.  How would that person

10     demonstrate that he respects, he or she, would establish -- to meet the

11     requirement that he or she respects the legal system and customs in the

12     Republic of Croatia and that he or she accepts the Croatian culture?

13             You can't say, "I've lived in Croatia for 20 years.  Of course

14     I've always obeyed the law, I've never even received a traffic ticket.  I

15     belong to the Croatian culture club.  I go to all the dinners."  I'm not

16     being facetious, but if you lived in Croatia, what I'm giving you is a

17     scenario.  Someone who lives in Bosnia, someone who lives in Australia,

18     they've never lived in Croatia before so how is that -- but they consider

19     themselves Croats.  So how is that person going to establish that he or

20     she respects the legal system and customs in the Republic of Croatia and

21     accepts Croatian culture?

22        A.   It fell inside the remit of those people who lived in the

23     Ministry of Foreign Affairs its department in charge of issuing the

24     document, which is called domovnica, which is a certificate of

25     citizenship as well as to issue passports.  Some people in

Page 28442

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina accepted Croatian -- the Croatian culture.  Part of

 2     the Croatian literature was created by Muslims.  One needs to have some

 3     historical knowledge to be able to address that.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Just a point of clarification for the record, on

 5     page 13, line 16, the gentleman indicated "those who worked" as opposed

 6     to "lived" in the ministry of foreign affairs.  It's kind of difficult to

 7     live in the ministry of foreign affairs, so it's those who worked.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  All right.  Let's go forward.  I think perhaps the

 9     citizenship will come up, issues will come up in other context.

10        Q.   Related to what we've been talking about in the last few minutes,

11     in fact, is the next question, that is, that there is evidence that

12     President Tudjman espoused the view that Bosnian Muslims were Croats of

13     Islamic faith and is that or has that ever been your view?

14        A.   It is my view, based on my lifetime experience and my experience

15     from the youth and the army that there were Muslims of Croatian

16     nationality -- well, those who belonged to the Croatian people.

17        Q.   Well, I'm not -- sir, my question is not whether there were

18     individual Muslims who considered themselves Croats but that the people,

19     to the extent there were people that considered themselves might

20     otherwise call themselves now Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims, but President

21     Tudjman espoused the view that Muslims, these Bosnian Muslims were

22     Croats, they were Croats who had taken on the Islamic faith.  Now, is

23     that your view or have you ever held that view?

24        A.   One cannot opine on that.  These are facts.  One either accepts

25     them or denies them.  However, you cannot have an opinion on facts.  It

Page 28443

 1     is a fact that at a certain point in history, a large part of the

 2     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina was the territory of the Croatian state

 3     until the Turks invaded parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 15th century.

 4     Throughout the 16th, 17th and 18th century, the Turks imposed Islam upon

 5     the Croatian people who lived in what is today Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

 6     same way they imposed Islam on the Serb people, those who were of

 7     orthodox faith.  It is a fact and not a matter of my opinion, a part of

 8     the Croatian people who lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina was forced to take on

 9     Islam.  It is a fact.

10        Q.   Going back to the refugee situation in Croatia, is it correct

11     that the -- at some point, perhaps in 1992, 1993, perhaps you can tell us

12     if you know, that the Croatian government in terms of Muslims coming to

13     Croatia from Bosnia or elsewhere, I suppose, but in terms of these Muslim

14     persons that were fleeing or moving out of Bosnia, that they were

15     primarily moved to four collective officers, that being Gasinci, Obonjan,

16     Varazdin and Samobor.  In fact I believe that was during the late summer

17     and autumn of 1993; is that correct?

18        A.   When you say predominantly in those centres, that is correct.

19     But however these were not the only centres.  There were many more

20     refugee centres which accommodated refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina who

21     were of Muslim faith.  In Zagreb alone, there were several --

22        Q.   Who made the decision, sir, to make those essentially the four

23     principal centres, was that your decision as head of ODPR or if it wasn't

24     your decision, whose decision was it?

25        A.   It was nobody's decision.  There were no main or principal

Page 28444

 1     centres.  There were around four -- 500 centres housing refugees and

 2     displaced persons.  There were no principal centres.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please -- there is

 4     something that is very important for me, so I'm just coming back to what

 5     you said earlier concerning the assessment of the issue raised in the

 6     indictment.

 7             You said that the Turks had invaded Bosnia-Herzegovina in the

 8     17th and 18th century and they forced Croatians to become Muslims and

 9     these Croatians became Muslims at the time.  That's what you said.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do have a correction

11     to make.  The Turks began occupying Bosnia-Herzegovina as early as the

12     late 15th century and then throughout the 16th and 17th century.

13     Occasionally, they imposed Islam on the Catholics there, not upon the

14     Croats there, because they can be forced to take on Islam however they

15     remain Croats.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 15th century there were

17     Croatians who with time ended up becoming Muslims.  They became Muslims.

18     And in 1991, 1992, 1993, some, some of them -- or some people, sorry,

19     believed that Muslims in Bosnia are Croatians because they belong to this

20     Croatian nation which may either be in Croatia, Australia, the United

21     States or anywhere in the world.  Is that what you told us?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, that is so.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which means that when Muslims

24     from Bosnia-Herzegovina -- let's take people for instance coming from

25     Mostar, when they come -- go to Croatia, you could then consider them as

Page 28445

 1     Croatians and based on their identity papers or based on school

 2     certificate or whatever paper, you could give them Croatian citizenship.

 3     When I say "you" I mean Croatia, the Ministry of the Interior.  That we

 4     got.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, when there were

 6     Muslims from Mostar arriving in the Republic of Croatia, they were

 7     largely without any papers and documents.  Those of them who wanted to

 8     receive the Croatian citizenship, that is those who felt to be Croatian,

 9     how they went about that, I don't know.  That depended upon them alone.

10             As for Mostar, I wanted to say that between the two world wars,

11     the Muslims in Mostar predominantly declared themselves to be Croats.

12     After World War II, the situation was quite different through the

13     pressure exercised by the Serbian politics which no longer allowed those

14     Muslims to declare themselves to be Croats.  That is why a new term was

15     introduced, non-affiliated.  Many Muslims accepted that, however my

16     friend whom I mentioned a few moments ago, Ibro Ibrisimovic did not

17     accept that and stated that he was Croat.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this answer.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to go one step further than this.

20     For, let's say, hundreds of years, the Turks were there, now did the

21     Turks in some way mix with the domestic population, were there

22     intermarriages and is there any record on whether those who live there

23     now descend entirely or partly from Turkish parents, I suppose mainly the

24     fathers.  Can you tell us something about this?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you put a question to

Page 28446

 1     me which would take a few hours for me to answer; however, since I need

 2     to be brief I can tell you this:  When the Croatian --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's Croatian.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when the Turkish army arrived in

 5     certain parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina since we were occupying

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina through decades part by part then of course there were

 7     mixed marriages, that is to say that certain Turkish soldiers married

 8     Christian women and they took Croatian children.  Thousands upon

 9     thousands of children were taken away by force from their parents and

10     taken back to Turkey in order to make them orthodox Muslims.  Some of

11     them, through individual contacts and throughout history, declared

12     themselves to be of Croatian descent.  There is an anecdote Padre

13     Drkolica [phoen] who was a Franciscan monk in Jerusalem in the 16th

14     century received from the Jerusalem vizier to build a tower next to the

15     basilica of Jesus Christ and to renew it thanks to his friendship with

16     the vizier.  As history states, they drank coffee together and spoke

17     Croatian.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

19             MR. SCOTT:

20        Q.   Sir, if we can touch on some additional information about the

21     refugee situation in Croatia, I would ask -- like you to turn to, if you

22     can find 1D 02626.  This is an ODPR report dated the 12th of June, 1998.

23     And if I can direct your attention, please, to part 3, Roman numeral III

24     of the report which is entitled, "Refugees from BiH and Republic of

25     Croatia data per year."

Page 28447

 1             Then below that, there is a number one and in that first

 2     paragraph, the last sentence says, "Until the end of 1992 in Croatia,

 3     large groups of refugees were arriving and it was impossible to give

 4     refugee status to new comers and register them."

 5             Now, this takes us back to the topic that we were discussing

 6     yesterday in connection with the decision of 13th of July 1992, this

 7     statement appears to indicate that -- through the balance of that year,

 8     1992, people arriving in Croatia were not given refugee status, legal

 9     refugee status; is that correct?

10        A.   To my knowledge, that is incorrect.  You said that the decision

11     was from July, I believe you said the 13th of July, 1992, however, I

12     believe it was on the 13th of July 1993 if I'm not mistaken.

13        Q.   You are mistaken, sir.  We covered this extensively yesterday and

14     I showed you documentation, July, 13th of July 1992, and this says that

15     until the end of 1992, and it was impossible to give refugee status to

16     new comers and register them.  So after July, am I correct sir, taking

17     what we discussed yesterday, and taking this report, which is a report

18     from your agency, that people who arrived after the 13th of July, 1992,

19     they may have arrived, they may have been assisted by someone but they

20     were not given legal refugee status; correct?

21        A.   It is not.

22        Q.   Then if we can go to 1D 02628, we'll come back to that document

23     momentarily if people want to keep their hand on it or close by.  If we

24     can go momentarily to 1D 02628 in the Defence binders.  Again this

25     document was shown to you during the Defence questioning and the same

Page 28448

 1     page.  If I can ask you to find again, and I'm using the page numbers if

 2     you'll notice on the bottom right corner of the page, there is a 8 digit

 3     number with a hyphen in between 1D 34-something if you will find the page

 4     where that is 0596.  0596, that is the page I would like you to look at,

 5     please.

 6        A.   I have 0576 and you're asking for 0596.  I found it.

 7        Q.   Sir, we looked at this briefly yesterday and it appears -- if we

 8     look at the period from approximately March 1993 when -- I'm looking at

 9     the refugee column, it says there were -- excuse me a moment -- excuse

10     me, April 1993 --

11        A.   [In English] April, yes.

12        Q.   In April, we have 269.000, do you see that?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And if you turn to the next page, July 1994, July 1994, we have

15     266.000, approximately.

16        A.   [Interpretation] 1994, in April, there are 272.000.  That is more

17     than in April the year before.

18        Q.   Listen to my question.  We seem to be having difficulty

19     communicating today, sir.  If you would listen to my questions, please,

20     and answer my questions.  I didn't ask you about April.  I asked you

21     about July 1994, do you understand?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Sir, Dr. Rebic.  Do you understand July 1994?

24        A.   Certainly I do.

25        Q.   266.056, do you see that?

Page 28449

 1        A.   [In English] Yes, I see.  Correct.

 2        Q.   So it appears, sir, that from that -- during that -- 14, 15-month

 3     period, there was actually quite a period of stability, the range in

 4     there is I think something less than 10 per cent of a variation where

 5     with a small peak in, I believe February of 1994, 284 -- approximately

 6     284.000; is that correct?

 7        A.   [Interpretation] That is correct.  The influx changed up and down

 8     depending on the old ones leaving and new ones arriving.  Some people

 9     were returning to Bosnia-Herzegovina, some were departing for third

10     countries.  That is why you see such slight differences which are quite

11     understandable.

12        Q.   Now, if we go back to the other document, 1D 02626, the one that

13     we were looking at before.  If you're still on -- again in section number

14     III or part III -- perhaps the usher can assist me?

15        A.   [In English] Excuse me, Mr. Scott.  I don't find it.

16        Q.   All right.  We will assist you, sir.

17        A.   [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Scott.  It wasn't in the binder.

18     It was on the desk next to the binder.  I'm sorry.

19        Q.   Not a problem.  There is a lot of paper for everyone to look at.

20             If you can go back to part III, section numbered one that we were

21     looking at a moment ago and go to the next paragraph, it says, "In May

22     1993, after the re-registration of refugees, 271.096 refugees from BiH

23     got refugee status."

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   Mr. Scott, yes, I do.  That was in May 1993?

Page 28450

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   Yes, I see it.

 3        Q.   And if we go then down, then, if I can just -- in order to find

 4     out how many of those approximately were Muslim, if you go to section

 5     number 2, the numbered part 2 on the left side, also in reference to May

 6     1993, in that sentence, it tells us that of that 271.000, approximately,

 7     157.000 or almost -- approximately 58 per cent were Muslim.  Do you see

 8     that?

 9        A.   [In English] I don't see but I remember that [Interpretation]

10     Yes, I remember that.  This is correct, yes.

11        Q.   And were these Muslims that had been given refugee status by the

12     state of Croatia, legal refugee status as of the 13th of July, 1992, or

13     when had these Muslims been given refugee status?

14        A.   Both before and after.  As I said yesterday the ODPR, regardless

15     of the law, I won't say illegally, but regardless of the law granted

16     refugee status to many people because there was simply nothing else to be

17     done.

18        Q.   So what -- do I understand, then, that the decision, the

19     government decision of the 13th of July, 1992 remained in effect, that

20     additional new refugee status not be given but you're saying that your

21     agency went ahead and did it anyway?

22        A.   There were instances where it did, but in any case, it took care

23     of refugees, even if they weren't formally granted refugee status.  As we

24     saw yesterday from Mr. Mazowiecki's report, in Varazdin there were

25     refugees, Bosniak Muslims from Bosnia-Herzegovina who were not

Page 28451

 1     registered, and I observed at the time that in spite of this, they had

 2     been provided with accommodation, protection, and everything else in

 3     spite of the fact that they had no document.

 4        Q.   And if we go to part number III, still in the same part number

 5     III, again section number 2, the next paragraph starts off by saying, a

 6     reference to a decrease.  It says, "The most significant reason for

 7     decreased number of refugees in Croatia in May 1993 compared to the

 8     situation in 1992 was departure of a large number of refugees to third

 9     countries."  Is that correct?

10        A.   There was certainly -- there was certainly many instances of

11     departure to third countries because in Croatia, the resources had been

12     exhausted and the UNHCR and some other countries offered to take in

13     refugees, or rather, the UNHCR offered to help and some countries

14     regardless of the UNHCR offer to take in refugees and this alleviated the

15     situation.

16        Q.   And if I can ask you to look at footnote 3 in the document, if

17     you go down a page or two or wherever it might be in the Croatian

18     language document but if you can find footnote 3 and for the English it's

19     on the bottom of page 4.

20        A.   Yes.  I found it.

21        Q.   It says, "The best example of the large number of transits

22     through Croatia was the refugee settlement Gasinci near Djakovo through

23     which more than 25.000 refugees, mostly Muslims, passed within four years

24     of its existing."  Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I do.  That's correct.

Page 28452

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  For the record, footnote 3 relates to as early as

 2     mid-1995 so let's be fair to the witness.  He's talking 1992, 1993.  Now

 3     this is in relation to 1995.

 4             MR. SCOTT:

 5        Q.   And Gasinci was one of the four primary refugee collection

 6     centres together with Obonjan, Samobor, and Varazdin?

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  Again I object because the gentleman indicated

 8     that it wasn't primary.  He indicated that there were some 500 refugee

 9     centres that had Muslims as well as Croats and that there was no such

10     thing as a primary centre.  So I object to this nature of the question

11     because it's been asked, it's been answered, and the gentleman was

12     corrected and I think this is now being unfair to the witness.

13             MR. SCOTT:  I think the word -- if we're going to --

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  And it's argumentative.

15             MR. SCOTT:  If we're going to parse words, Mr. Karnavas, that he

16     said that those were the four predominant centres, and the word is

17     "predominant," and that is in the transcript.

18        Q.   Now, if we can look then next, sir, in the third or fourth

19     paragraph --

20        A.   Excuse me.  Excuse me.  I didn't say they were predominant.

21        Q.   We'll go back in the transcript, sir.  Just a moment.  If this is

22     what we're going to have to do then I guess it's what we'll have to do.

23        A.   If I may be of assistance while you are looking, what I said was

24     that they were the largest centres.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.  They were the four largest centres?

Page 28453

 1        A.   [In English] Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.

 3        A.   [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 4        Q.   If I could direct your attention in the same section 2 of the

 5     document, if we go down it's not entirely clear the way the breaks are

 6     whether it's the third -- continuation of the third paragraph or the

 7     fourth paragraph, but in reference again when it talks about the persons

 8     going to third countries, there is a paragraph above that says, "42.076

 9     refugees, mostly Muslims, left Croatia for third countries.  Western

10     European and trans oceanic, et cetera."

11             Section 2, it's the third paragraph under the section 2, it's

12     Article 3 -- whatever, it does become confusing, Article 3, Roman numeral

13     III, number 2 on the left side of the page, below that, approximately the

14     third paragraph is a paragraph that begins with the numbers 42.076; do

15     you see that, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I do.  Mostly Muslims.  This means that there were Croats

17     among them too.  Yes, I'm aware of that situation.

18        Q.   Then in that same paragraph it goes on to say, "There were only

19     few Croats in that figure due to the criteria that were set within

20     relocation programme.  Namely, BiH Croats had the right to dual

21     citizenship and among the recipient countries, there was a common

22     position that BiH Croats had the second home country that could take care

23     of them."

24             That is correct, is it not?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 28454

 1        Q.   So the persons, the refugees in Croatia that were primarily going

 2     out to third countries were Muslims, according to this report.  There

 3     were only few Croats among them; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely, because third countries did not wish to take in

 5     persons who had Croatian citizenship, so persons with Croatian

 6     citizenship remained in our refugee centres.

 7        Q.   And in fact, if we go to part number -- Roman numeral III, a

 8     moment please, we'll still in Roman numeral III, my apology, and if you

 9     go to section numbered 12, there's various -- the document goes on and if

10     you get on to the part, please, that is paragraph number 12.  About

11     two-thirds of the way through that paragraph it says, "A larger -- a

12     large number of refugees who no longer have the status (due to their own

13     decision or revoked status) have stayed in Croatia on the basis of

14     Croatian citizenship, at least 140.000 of them."  Is that correct?

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, this is -- excuse me, we can all

16     read this but this is 1998 that we're referring to.  I fail to see the

17     relevancy of all of this because somebody who is enjoying quite a

18     comfortable living standard, who is getting an education there, might

19     decide to stay there but I don't see the relevancy to the indictment.  I

20     really don't.  Is the Croatian government on trial here?  What is this

21     case about now?

22             MR. SCOTT:  Well, Your Honour, it's --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I find it difficult

24     to see what you're trying to establish.  I may understand at the end, you

25     never know, but the Defence is telling us that you are referring to

Page 28455

 1     something that happened in 1998.  You should not mix apples and pears.

 2     What's happened in 1998 is not relevant for 1990.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, it's our position that this is

 4     statistical information going back and covering a wide period of time

 5     including back into 1993, 1992, and the point is, and that's the reason

 6     for the questions about Croatian citizenship, that there was a

 7     substantial difference in the treatment between persons who came from

 8     Bosnia who had Croatian citizenship and those which did not.  And that's

 9     our position and that's what the documents we submit show.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Again, but why is that relevant?  But why is it

11     relevant to the indictment?  Every country can make a decision as to who

12     they are going to invite and who are they going to extend citizenship to.

13     If you go to the United States, for instance, it's very difficult to get

14     citizenship.  I don't see what the problem is in how it's connected to

15     the joint criminal enterprise.  I'm not trying to disrupt the proceedings

16     but I don't -- I think we're far afield at this point.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, your objection

18     has been recorded on the transcript.  Let's hear Mr. Scott.

19             Mr. Scott, please proceed.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I mediate here.

21     This really refers to 1995.  It says compared to the situation in 1995.

22     In 1995, mass return did begin, return of Muslims to Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23     on a large scale because in the second half of 1995, after Operation

24     Storm and the liberation of parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as

25     occupied parts of Croatia, the situation as regards security changed

Page 28456

 1     dramatically and that's why a lot of Muslims decided to go back to

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This was in 1995.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Scott.

 4             MR. SCOTT:

 5        Q.   If we go back to the third paragraph of part III, back on the

 6     page we were looking at before, it tells us, sir, toward the end of that

 7     paragraph, it's in 1990 --

 8        A.   Number three, sorry?

 9        Q.   Roman numeral III, the section paragraphed number 1, the third

10     paragraph in that section.  Sorry that's the way the document has been

11     organised.  In that paragraph it says, "Until the end of 1993," you'll

12     see around 20.000 -- it says, "around 20.000 refugees arrived in the

13     first inflow during the summer and autumn 1993, and additional 15.000 at

14     the end of 1993 and the beginning of 1994.  At first they stayed in the

15     territory of BiH under the HVO control.  A smaller number of refugees

16     from those territories stayed in Croatia in 1993."  Now does that appear

17     to you to be consistent that --

18        A.   1992.

19        Q.   Sir, this says -- I'm talking about -- if you go back up, "Around

20     20.000 refugees arrived in the first inflow during the summer and autumn

21     of 1993," do you see that?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  But we had already reached the end of the paragraph

23     where it says in 1992.

24        Q.   Yes.  And perhaps if you will listen to my questions, we can

25     proceed more efficiently.

Page 28457

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Scott, I'm sorry, this is not justified.

 2     You said 1993 and on the paper, it says 1992 and the witness correctly

 3     stated this and there's nothing that was -- you simply misspoke and

 4     that's all.

 5             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, the sentence says, "Around 20.000

 6     refugees arrived in the first inflow during the summer and autumn 1993."

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And what's the last figure?  Yes, you were going

 8     down to the end of the paragraph and what's the last figure there?

 9             MR. SCOTT:  It was 1992, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But you said 1993 there.

11             MR. SCOTT:  If I misspoke, then.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yeah, yeah, that's okay.  It's no crime.

13             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Sir, does that appear to you to be the -- an accurate statement

15     as you recall it of the inflow of refugees to Croatia from

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina during that time period?  The first inflow being about

17     20.000 in summer and autumn 1993 and an additional 15.000, that is a

18     total of 35.000, at the end of 1993?

19        A.   Yes, I agree that that's how it was.  Whether the numbers are

20     absolutely precise, I can't say, but in general, yes, I agree with them.

21        Q.   All right.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, out of the 20.000

23     refugees who arrived in the summer and autumn 1993, and plus the

24     15.000 -- 15.000 that arrived at the end of 1993, a total of 35.000

25     refugees, were they mixed, both Croats and Muslim?

Page 28458

 1             In the last paragraph, reference is made to the month of July,

 2     22nd of July, 33.000 refugees returned from Bosnia who remained in

 3     Croatia and out of these 33.000 refugees, or amongst them, there were

 4     30.000 Croats and 3.000 Muslims.  Do you agree with the figures we see

 5     here?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the figure of 33.000.  Now,

 7     after a lapse of 15 years, I can't tell you whether this is absolutely

 8     precise.  I would have to check all the documents in the binders in our

 9     office.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if we read this last

11     sentence, we get the impression that those who arrived after the 13th of

12     July -- after July 1994, there are only -- there are 33.000 in total,

13     30.000 Croats and 3.000 Muslims.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct because at that

15     time, there was a conflict between the Muslims and Croats in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina and there were very many victims among the Croats

17     because Croats who were expelled from the enclaves that the Muslims took

18     over.  The Muslims expelled those Croats and in the end, they ended up in

19     Croatia.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In any case, what this document

21     seems to be telling us is that in 1993, there were 35.000 new refugees,

22     new refugees, but out of this total, we do not have a distribution for

23     1993 between Muslims and Croats.  We have that distribution for 1994 but

24     not for 1993.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Scott.

Page 28459

 1             MR. SCOTT:

 2        Q.   If we could go forward, please, sir to --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. SCOTT:

 5        Q.   If we can go forward, sir, I understand that in May of 1993, you

 6     had -- you went on a mission to Bosnia-Herzegovina I think with

 7     Dr. Granic.  This was something that was I think sometimes referred to as

 8     the Turkish-Croatian good will mission; is that correct?

 9        A.   I wouldn't say Turkish-Croatian, I would simply call it a good

10     will mission.  The members of that good will mission were representatives

11     of the Republic of Croatia, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

12     Republic of Turkey.

13        Q.   And you went with Dr. Granic as well; is that correct?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   Did you go into east Mostar on that occasion?

16        A.   We did go to east Mostar.

17        Q.   And what can you tell the Judges about the conditions that you

18     found there in the latter part of May 1993?

19        A.   In the latter part of May 1993, there was still a conflict

20     between the two sides.  When we crossed over from western to eastern

21     Mostar, we were under fire coming from the Muslim side.  We were

22     receiving signals that it was very dangerous, that we should bend down

23     and so on.  When we arrived in eastern Mostar, we were received by

24     General Pasalic.

25        Q.   Perhaps you could answer my question in terms of what conditions

Page 28460

 1     did you find in east Mostar?

 2        A.   All I can speak about is the impression I had because I didn't

 3     spend a long time in eastern Mostar, only a few hours.  My impression was

 4     that it was chaos among the people, and I barely managed to save my own

 5     life.

 6        Q.   Was there -- had there been resistance on the part of the

 7     delegation, on the Croatian members of the delegation to go into east

 8     Mostar at all, that they would -- there was a desire not to go into east

 9     Mostar but only to say on the western side?

10        A.   No, Mr. Scott, on the contrary.  All of us, those from Croatia,

11     Turkey, and Bosnia-Herzegovina, we all wanted to go to east Mostar.

12     Moreover, we were supposed to go as far as Tuzla and we wanted to do

13     that, but we were not allowed to by General Pasalic.  He wouldn't allow

14     it.

15        Q.   I understand from the information that we've been provided that

16     you did not meet -- we talked with Dr. Prlic yesterday and you did not

17     have any dealings or you did not meet Dr. Prlic during this trip to

18     Mostar; is that correct?

19        A.   I don't remember having met Mr. Prlic on that occasion.

20        Q.   Now, directing your attention further into 1993, and around the

21     middle of July 1993, did you become aware of discussions about opening --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  Very brief

23     question.

24             You went to Mostar with a delegation and you wanted to go to east

25     Mostar but General Pasalic did not agree.  If I understand correctly,

Page 28461

 1     there were Turks in the delegation.  Didn't they protest because it was

 2     quite natural for them to go and see the Muslims?  What about the Turks

 3     who were with you, didn't they say anything?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, they did.  They

 5     did protest.  They certainly wanted to go on together with us, the rest

 6     of us, but General Pasalic, the leader of the Muslim part in eastern

 7     Mostar did not allow it.  He said to us, "From this point on, I will not

 8     provide you with security escorts on the road."  And what else could we

 9     do without security escorts but go back?

10             I remember that at that meeting with General Pasalic, there was a

11     lively discussion and that he was very arrogant that he attacked the

12     Croats and wouldn't let them get a word in edgeways.  To such an extent

13     that the lady minister from the Turkish delegation said to us, "I'm

14     surprised.  We were received better by the Croats in west Mostar than by

15     the Muslims here."

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time the Spanish

17     battalion of UNPROFOR was there, couldn't you have asked them to take you

18     there in their armoured vehicles, to take you to Mostar east that way?

19     Didn't you have that idea?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my recollection,

21     UNPROFOR did assist us but very little and they, themselves, seemed to be

22     afraid.  The Spanish battalion, which was supposed to come and collect us

23     after the meeting with General Pasalic, came to pick up our delegation in

24     haste and I was among the last to leave because I couldn't find my

25     driver, so I jumped on to an UNPROFOR vehicle, and that's how I managed

Page 28462

 1     to get out alive and I left my coat behind.  That's the story.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Dr. Rebic, I think there's been a bit of confusion caused.  My

 5     understanding is, and correct me if I am wrong, I think the confusion is

 6     on my part.  You and your delegation did go into east Mostar and had a

 7     tour there for, I think you earlier said, several hours, but you were not

 8     able to go on to Tuzla or Zenica; is that correct?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   Now, going forward to July of 1993, and your position is as head

11     of the Croatian ODPR, did you become aware of any discussions to open

12     what was called a transit centre at the Ljubuski detention facility in

13     Herceg-Bosna?

14        A.   Mr. Scott, which centre do you have in mind exactly?

15        Q.   There was a place in Ljubuski, a place called Ljubuski, I don't

16     know if you've ever been there or not, perhaps, where there was a place

17     where Muslim people were being held, detained?

18        A.   I was in Ljubuski.

19        Q.   Yes.  Did it come to your attention around that time of a

20     proposal put forward by the HVO to operate a transit centre at the

21     Ljubuski detention camp?

22        A.   Mr. Scott, I am not familiar with that.  I know of something else

23     that you will probably get to later.  As for Ljubuski, I don't know

24     anything, at least I can't remember.

25        Q.   All right.  Well, lest we be diverted by some sort of -- just

Page 28463

 1     again, a confusion in language or translation, what is it -- tell me what

 2     it is you're familiar with and perhaps we can see if we're talking about

 3     the same thing or not.

 4        A.   I was wondering, Mr. Scott, whether we were on the same page.

 5     May I be of assistance?

 6        Q.   Please.

 7        A.   Is it, perhaps, the town of Caplina.

 8        Q.   No.  That's not what we're talking about, I'm sorry.  Thank you

 9     sir for your trying to help.  We'll --

10        A.   You're welcome.

11             MR. SCOTT:  If we could go, Your Honour, into private session, I

12     have a document -- exhibit to show to the witness that is under seal and

13     also not to be broadcast.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 28464











11 Pages 28464-28465 redacted. Private session.















Page 28466

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

12             MR. SCOTT:

13        Q.   Can I ask you, sir, to turn to Exhibit P 10412.  P 10412 which

14     should be in one of the Prosecution binders.  Sir, this appears to be a

15     Reuters news article dated the 22nd of July 1993, and in the first

16     paragraph, it says, "Croatia will not accept any more Muslim refugees

17     from Bosnia without UN consent in order to avoid accusations of being

18     implicated in ethnic cleansing, a Croatian official said on Thursday.

19              "Croatia will stop accepting Muslim refugees from Bosnia without

20     previous accord with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees so

21     that it would not be interpreted in the west as ethnic cleansing,

22     Adalbert Rebic head of the government's office for refugees told a news

23     conference."

24             Is that an accurate report on what was said -- what you said on

25     the 22nd of July, 1993 as best you recall?

Page 28467

 1        A.   It can be true partially, although based on a news report, I

 2     cannot prove or deny anything.  The media frequently acted

 3     unprofessionally, superficially and in a hostile way when it comes to

 4     Croatia, especially when Reuters is concerned.  However, it was one of

 5     the reasons due to which we said that we would have to stop receiving

 6     Bosnian-Herzegovinian refugees because there was an increase of

 7     accusations in the media that we were helping the Serbs to ethnically

 8     cleanse Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Therefore, what else could we do but to say,

 9     "Very well, then, we will no longer be taking in refugees," because our

10     receiving them and accommodating them was being misinterpreted by some

11     media as well as in certain diplomatic circles.

12        Q.   The article says that -- toward the bottom, it says, "Until a few

13     weeks ago, the foreign press was accusing Croatia of closing its borders

14     for refugees, but as soon as we take them in they accuse us of ethnic

15     cleansing."

16             Now, sir, this is yet again, as we've been discussing since

17     yesterday, another reference to the fact that Croatia's borders up until

18     sometime previous to this article had been closed to refugees.  So can

19     you tell us again if they had been closed, when -- is this the first

20     instance when they had been opened again in connection with sending these

21     prisoners?

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, this is an abuse of the process.

23     This question, the way it's phrased is improper.  Look -- this is a

24     Reuters and of course we don't have a particular time, they're saying and

25     it's a quote, "Until a few weeks ago, the foreign press was accusing

Page 28468

 1     Croatia," in other words, and now, we see no matter what Croatia does, it

 2     finds itself in a bind.  That's why if the gentleman was allowed to

 3     finish his previous answer, which was, "This is why we want the United

 4     Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to be involved so there would be

 5     no accusations of ethnic cleansing on the part of Croatia for accepting

 6     refugees."

 7             So we have to be fair to the gentleman.  And if you look at the

 8     quote, the quote speaks for itself.  But to misuse the words of the

 9     quote, to fit it into some kind of a nepherious and sinister manner, I

10     object to.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

12             MR. SCOTT:

13        Q.   Sir, the quotation is attributed to you on the 22nd of July 1993,

14     "Until a few weeks ago," I take it that means until a few weeks prior to

15     22 July 1993, "Until a few weeks ago, the foreign press was accusing

16     Croatia of closing its borders."  Now, what can you tell us about the

17     complaints or the accusations that around that time, until a few weeks

18     ago, Croatia was being accused of Croatia closing its borders, so what

19     was the foreign press saying a few weeks before the 22nd of July 1993?

20        A.   I'm reading the Croatian text.  Well, the Serbian text, in this

21     case.  "Until a week ago, the foreign press was accusing Croatia for

22     closing down its border for refugees but now that we are receiving them,

23     we are being accused of ethnic cleansing."  That is precisely so.  We

24     were in dire straits at the time.  If we tried going one way, we were

25     accused of this.  If we tried the other way, we were accused of that.

Page 28469

 1     Often, it was difficult for one to decide, except to follow one's

 2     conscience.  We decided that we would take in those who reached Croatia

 3     and as far as I can remember, the border was never closed for refugees of

 4     any ethnicity.

 5             And to repeat, I don't trust Reuters.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're an expert in

 7     media because you have had a lot of interviews with the media and I'm not

 8     going to enter into more details, but you know as well as I do that when

 9     a journalist quotes with inverted come a statement made by a third party,

10     the quotation are almost 100 per cent reliable otherwise this would be a

11     very serious breech of the code of the ethics, and particularly as when

12     it comes to such a famous agency as Reuters it cannot allow itself to

13     quote -- to misquote people because this would go against the reputation

14     of its agencies.  It would undermine the reputation of the agency.

15             You say that they made a mistake.  Maybe, but some of your

16     statements have been quoted between inverted commas and normally when a

17     journalist gives quotations, normally these quotations are what he heard

18     from the people -- the person he was interviewing.  That's a general rule

19     which applies to journalism.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, indeed I have a lot of

21     experience with the media.  Until this day, in Croatia, and with foreign

22     media, my experience still is that they do not convey my statement

23     precisely or if they quote it precisely, they put it in the wrong

24     context.

25             To go back to this text, what I said here is true.  I am not

Page 28470

 1     disputing these statements.  Previously, I said that in principle, I do

 2     not trust Reuters and that based on their reports, I wouldn't dare try

 3     and prove anything since they had a certain position towards Croatia.  It

 4     stemmed out of a certain policy direction that was applied to Croatia.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  Fair enough.

 6             Mr. Scott.

 7             MR. SCOTT:

 8        Q.   If I could ask you to next go to --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

10             MR. SCOTT:

11        Q.   If I could ask you next to go to a document which I believe we've

12     seen before, P 10048.  It's in the Defence binders.  Sir, we've looked

13     at -- I believe we've all looked at this document perhaps more than once

14     since you've been here.  What -- it was specifically in connection with

15     moving prisoners or people from I think about a thousand Muslims from the

16     Mostar area to Gasinci, and do you recall that being the particular

17     circumstances in which you issued this document which on the subject line

18     says, "Approval for entry and temporary stay in Republic of Croatia"?

19        A.   Mr. Scott, the document was not signed by me.  What the document

20     is trying to say is something that becomes clearer if one goes to similar

21     documents which were issued by the ODPR upon request by the UNHCR

22     whenever there was a request to accept refugees from Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina in order to provide them with a temporary accommodation in

24     Gasinci or at any other refugee centre.  It mostly dealt with Gasinci

25     because the UNHCR had its office there.

Page 28471

 1             In 1993, due to the impossibility of Croatia taking in any more

 2     refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina, this came about as a consequence.  The

 3     UNHCR more frequently took part in the resolving of the problem of

 4     refugees to the extent possible they took them to third countries, those

 5     who could not be taken away stayed with us in the Republic of Croatia.

 6        Q.   Did your agency, sir, play any role in the collection or

 7     verification of what was called the letters of guarantee?  That was

 8     supposed to be part of the package, if you will, for these people to be

 9     able to leave where they were in Bosnia and in theory transit through

10     Croatia to a third country?

11        A.   Mr. Scott, there were different and many cases.  There were cases

12     in which the UNHCR would compile a list of those they want to send to

13     third countries who were supposed to transit through Croatia.  They would

14     then ask for temporary accommodation.  There were also instances in which

15     refugees arrived without a list.  The regional centre or the social

16     welfare centre that was competent was supposed to register them.  All

17     that documentation is kept in the archives of the ODPR until the present

18     day.

19             The third set of circumstances involved --

20        Q.   My question, sir, was if you could describe any role that your

21     agency played, if any, in the collection or verification of the document

22     which has called in this courtroom, "the letter of guarantee."  Did your

23     agency, the ODPR of Croatia, have anything to do with the preparation of

24     those guarantees, obtaining the guarantees, verifying?  What role, if

25     any, did your agency have in connection with those guarantees?

Page 28472

 1        A.   Mr. Scott, yes and no.

 2        Q.   Depending on what?

 3        A.   Depending on the situation.

 4        Q.   Do you recall what the situation was concerning the 500 people

 5     coming in connection with your letter or your agency's letter of 16 July

 6     1993?  Do you know whether these people had letters of guarantee at all?

 7        A.   Mr. Scott, I cannot know that since I did not sign the document.

 8     Probably that day, on that occasion, or that week, I was not in Zagreb.

 9     Actually, I remember, I was in Geneva at the time.

10        Q.   Let me ask you to next go to, please, Exhibit P 03708.  It's in

11     the Defence binder, my apology.  Do you have it, sir?

12        A.   [In English] Yes.  This, I have.

13        Q.   This appears to be a letter that you wrote or at least someone

14     wrote, perhaps you can tell us if that's your signature on the -- at the

15     end of the letter, is that your signature or did someone else sign it for

16     you or what can you tell us?

17        A.   Mr. Scott, the signature is mine.  It is authentic.

18        Q.   You indicated at one point, and I think in the English

19     translation, at least it's at the bottom of the second page, and again

20     you make this point that was referenced in the news article that we

21     looked at earlier, at one point it says, "... we will receive Muslim

22     refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina only in agreement with UNHCR for the

23     purpose of bringing them together with their family members in third

24     countries."

25             Was that, in fact the -- is it your position that that was, in

Page 28473

 1     fact, the position of your agency and that policy was implemented from

 2     the middle of July 1993 onward?  That your agency was not involved in

 3     moving any transport, transit, what have you, the movement of any Muslims

 4     out of Bosnia and Herzegovina that did not have UNHCR approval?

 5        A.   Those who did not have UNHCR approval, that is to say that the

 6     UNHCR had promised to have them moved on to third countries, were

 7     received by the Republic of Croatia.

 8        Q.   And you're saying they then stayed in Croatia?

 9        A.   Of course.  If we are referring to the same text on page 2, I'll

10     read it in English, if I may, [In English] "the current policy,"

11     [Interpretation] is that the text you're referring to?  [In English] "In

12     accordance with the current policy."

13        Q.   Yes, sir, I believe so.  Yes.  The statement goes on further on

14     that page?

15        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  In accordance with the

16     policy so far, we have drawn no distinctions between Muslims and Croats

17     as you are doing.  In hotels, we have both Muslims and Croats just as we

18     have Croats in refugee centres as well.  Proof of this is Spansko

19     where -- there are both Muslims and Croats in Spansko; that is, and then

20     there is another one where there are Croats from Vukovar.  You do have

21     the English translation.

22        Q.   Yes, I referred it to you a few minutes ago.  Thank you, sir.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  For the purpose of the context I would ask that

24     the entire paragraph, following paragraph, be taken into consideration

25     with Mr. Scott's previous question with reference to UNHCR because it's

Page 28474

 1     quite clear why Dr. Rebic is making sure that UNHCR should be involved.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  My question was never about what the letter says but

 3     whether, in fact, that was the policy of ODPR and whether that policy was

 4     followed consistently after July -- middle of July 1993.

 5        Q.   So is it your position, Dr. Rebic, that this -- these Judges

 6     should understand that any of these scenarios after July 1993 occurred

 7     only with UNHCR approval?  Is that what you're telling this Chamber?

 8        A.   Yes, Mr. Scott, but Mr. Karnavas is right.  The passage which

 9     follows is very important for an understanding of the situation.  I will

10     read it out --

11        Q.   Please, please, answer my question, sir.  Dr. Rebic, listen to my

12     question.  My question is not -- we have the document -- letter in front

13     of us we've all read it.  Everyone in the courtroom has read it, do you

14     understand that?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   My question to you was:  Was that, in fact, obeyed, the position

17     of -- there will be no more sending whatever word, I'm trying to think of

18     a neutral word so I don't get an objection, we will not transit any more

19     Muslims through Croatia, they will not take any more Muslims from

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina unless we have UNHCR approval.  Was that your position

21     and was that, in fact, carried out from July 1993 forward?

22        A.   Not in full.

23             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We need to take the

25     20-minute break.  You will have 50 minutes left, Mr. Scott.  I hope there

Page 28475

 1     won't be too many objections.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  50 or 15?

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Five zero.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Five zero.  50.  Five zero.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  I don't think so.  But okay.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the registrar

 7     to check again.  He told me a few minutes ago that Mr. Scott has used --

 8     had used three hours and 22 minutes.  Mr. Scott had four hours and 15

 9     minutes because you yourself used 15 additional minutes, so in other

10     words, Mr. Scott still has 15 minutes.  We'll resume at 5.00 p.m.  We'll

11     be sitting -- we'll have Mr. Scott for -- until quarter to 6.00 and then

12     we'll have some time left for re-examination, but I'll ask the registrar

13     to check again.  20-minute break.

14                           --- Recess taken at 4.35 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 5.00 p.m.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have the floor.

17             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             Your Honour, if we could go back into private session, please,

19     for a moment.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 28476











11 Page 28476 redacted. Private session.















Page 28477

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

19             MR. SCOTT:

20        Q.   I'm showing you P 10192 which appears to be a letter by your

21     agency on the 26th of August, 1993, subject "confirmation of consent for

22     transit through the Republic of Croatia."

23             And giving these persons, these listed persons the right to

24     travel through the republic, looking at the first actual paragraph,

25     "... through the Republic of Croatia as a transit country which transit

Page 28478

 1     shall last no longer than 48 hours."  Apparently on their way to Germany.

 2     Is that a document issued by your agency and is it signed by you or

 3     someone else?

 4        A.   Mr. Scott, the document was not signed by me.  Perhaps you can

 5     compare it with a document I signed, and you will see there is a

 6     difference.  On top of that, the document was not issued by the

 7     governmental Office for Displaced Persons and Refugees.  Judging by the

 8     stamp, it was issued by an office in Makarska.  There is one other thing

 9     I can mention, if it is of any importance.  In August 1993, I was on

10     vacation in France at a nun's monastery in Saint-Germain-en-Laye near

11     Paris.

12        Q.   Thank you for that.  Can you tell us, though, who would have

13     decided then in your absence, for example, in this letter, who decided

14     that 48 hours would be the appropriate time for transit?

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  Again, Mr. President, I object.  It assumes a fact

16     that's not in evidence.  He's indicated that this was not issued by his

17     office, so how could he determine, you know, about the 48 hours?

18             MR. SCOTT:  I didn't -- I don't think he said that.  I think the

19     correct answer was he didn't sign it.  It says, "Office for Expelled

20     Person, People and Refugees of the Government of the Republic of

21     Croatia," and that's the agency that I understand that he was the head

22     of.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  He pointed to the stamp.

24             MR. SCOTT:  If it's necessary, Your Honour, I will waste more

25     time by going back through it again.

Page 28479

 1        Q.   Sir, I understand it's not your signature, but this is a letter

 2     issued by the agency of which you were in charge; correct?

 3        A.   It is correct that this is not my signature.  That is number one.

 4     Number two, it is correct that it was issued by the regional office of

 5     Makarska which was one of the 21 regional offices of the governmental

 6     office.

 7        Q.   As the head of this agency and perhaps you didn't sign this

 8     particular document, but given your familiarity with the work of the

 9     organisation that you were in charge of, who would decide, then, who in

10     the chain of command, so to speak, would decide that 48 hours was the

11     appropriate time?

12        A.   Concerning the duration or transit through Croatia, the person

13     issuing such a document could decide on it pursuant to another document,

14     for example, a UNHCR document which guaranteed that the refugees from

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina would be moved on to third countries within a certain

16     period of time.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're going do save

18     some time.  48 hours here is handwritten.  The person who signed the

19     document wrote 48 hours.  He could have written 72 hours or something

20     else.  Mr. Scott wants to know who decides that it's going to be 48

21     hours.  The answer itself is obvious, it's the person who signed and who

22     wrote 48 hours.  Did he have the authority to write 48 hours, 72 hours,

23     one week?  Did he have that power?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, I cannot know that.

25     I don't know what the legislation there was in place at the time.  During

Page 28480

 1     that month, I was abroad.  In essence, the regional offices did not grant

 2     refugee status, only the governmental office was able to do that.

 3     Pursuant to the law, they were supposed to ask the central office to

 4     grant that.  Regional offices were not allowed to grant refugee status,

 5     they could only grant displaced person status.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, please proceed.

 7             MR. SCOTT:

 8        Q.   If we can look at the last page of the letter or the bottom of

 9     the letter, in any event above the -- your name, I didn't say signature,

10     but above your name, it says, "The above-stated persons in transit cannot

11     request or be given refugee status in the Republic of Croatia."  Do you

12     see that?

13        A.   I do see it, Mr. Scott.

14        Q.   Is that a standard language that was put on these documents

15     whenever a Muslim was coming from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16        A.   In respect of whether that person was Muslim or Croatian, if he

17     or she was coming from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and if they

18     only requested transit, they were supposed to be granted such status

19     without granting them refugee status.  After having received a transit

20     permit, they could no longer ask for refugee status except in cases in

21     which third countries would not take them and returned them to Croatia.

22     In that case, Croatia was supposed to take them and grant them refugee

23     status.

24        Q.   I'm going to ask you --

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, I have a question in regard to the

Page 28481

 1     transcript, on line 18, the first words are "In respect of whether" and I

 2     wonder whether the witness did not want to say irrespective of whether, I

 3     suppose Mr. Karnavas had the same point, I'm sorry if I preempted it.

 4     It's actually a question, witness.  Did you say something like in respect

 5     of or did you say irrespective of?

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  Dr. Rebic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards.  Excuse me, what is it

 8     all about?

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  The transcript and it's moving up now, it's on

10     page 14, it's on page 51, line 14 -- line 18.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Now 18.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to see the text.  I said,

13     "Irrespective of whether a person was Muslim or Croat."

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I hope this will be

15     clarified once and for all.  Yesterday, you've answered questions by the

16     Defence.  I've asked questions of you too, and the Prosecutor is allowed

17     to put these questions again.  I'm going to sum up again.  Let's assume

18     we have someone who has a transit visa because he has a guarantee to go

19     to a third country.  That person does not have a refugee status; is that

20     right?  Fine.  Now it's clear for me at least.

21             Mr. Scott.

22             We've spent hours on this.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  By

24     your leave, I would like to note that the witness's response to your

25     question did not make it in the transcript.

Page 28482

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Witness, can you please

 2     repeat your answer to the question I asked you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour, would you

 4     mind repeating the question?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  I said that we spent

 6     hours trying to find out whether someone who was in transit, because he

 7     or she had a letter of guarantee from a third country, that person would

 8     not be granted refugee status by the government of Croatia because he

 9     would receive that status, the status of a refugee, in the country where

10     he would be going to.  Is that what you're telling us?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is my position

12     and that was my answer.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

14             MR. SCOTT:

15        Q.   And sir, if I could ask you to look very briefly at the very next

16     document, please, which is 10193.  Can you just simply confirm that that

17     is again a similar document in fact issued the same day, the 26th of

18     August, 1993, again giving a person 48 hours to transit through Croatia

19     stating that the person cannot request or receive refugee status in the

20     Republic of Croatia.

21        A.   Yes, Mr. Scott, I see the document.  The document reflects the

22     same procedure.  It is another document issued by the regional office in

23     Makarska.  It was not signed by me.  It was signed by the head of the

24     regional office.

25        Q.   Can I go on, sir, to just your knowledge of what was happening in

Page 28483

 1     connection with these various events when people would show up in Croatia

 2     either at the Zagreb mosque or at Gasinci or wherever it was, you told us

 3     yesterday I believe that what was happening in Herceg-Bosna really wasn't

 4     your remit, and you've told us you were only there on approximately, I

 5     don't know, maybe two or three occasions, I think you may have told us

 6     now.  Is it correct, sir, that in terms of what was happening on the

 7     other end of these transactions, so to speak, what was happening at the

 8     Ljubuski prison, what was happening at the Heliodrom, what was happening

 9     at Dretelj, you had no personal knowledge of that; is that correct, sir?

10        A.   That is correct, absolutely nothing until we discovered the

11     facts.

12        Q.   Well, for example, when we talk about these letters of transit or

13     transit visas and letters of guarantee, did you have any knowledge at the

14     time that what was happening would be that people would tell the Muslim

15     prisoners in these camps that if they signed these papers, they could be

16     released from prison.  They would have an hour to gather their families

17     and to sign over their property to the HVO and under those conditions

18     they would be able to leave Herceg-Bosna?

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Objection, Your Honour.  It's argumentative and

20     assumes a lot of facts that are not necessarily established.  So -- and

21     the question has been asked and answered and this is argumentative.  He

22     can put that in his closing argument.

23             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I'm asking whether this witness

24     whether --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, your objection is

Page 28484

 1     dismissed because the same question has been asked of other witnesses.

 2     The Trial Chamber is perfectly aware of that possibility and I think it's

 3     a good idea to check that with the witness, but I asked the same question

 4     myself yesterday.

 5             Mr. Scott.

 6             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Sir, my question -- you don't know anything about the

 8     circumstances which confronted the people who were being released in

 9     Bosnia who were getting these letters, who were travelling, who were

10     finding themselves at the Zagreb mosque or finding themselves at Gasinci

11     or some other place.  You don't know what drove them to arrive at those

12     locations, do you?

13        A.   It is correct that I had no knowledge, absolutely nothing which

14     can also be seen from my yesterday's answer concerning the mosque.

15        Q.   I'd like you to next please go to Exhibit P 10408.  Sir, in the

16     interest of time, I'm going to ask for your cooperation, please.  This is

17     an article in the Christian Science Monitor dated the 24th of June 1993,

18     and the article indicates that as a result of the conflict between the

19     Croats and Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina that was occurring by the middle

20     of 1993, that in fact the conditions and the treatment that Muslims in

21     refugee centres and Muslims who found themselves in Croatia at the time,

22     the treatment and conditions they confronted were becoming worse.

23             Now, what can you tell us about that in your experience?  What

24     complaints, what reports did you receive about the treatment that these

25     Muslims in Croatia were receiving during mid-1993 and thereafter?

Page 28485

 1        A.   Mr. Scott, I wasn't receiving any such complaints stating that

 2     such negative conduct occurred in the Republic of Croatia as we can see

 3     is alleged here concerning the Muslims in Croatia.  I know that in the

 4     press there were many rumours and lots of libel, and I mentioned that in

 5     my letter to Mrs. Turkovic.

 6        Q.   The short answer is you're telling the Chamber you didn't know

 7     anything about any complaints such as these, information such as this?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   I would like you, please, to go to Exhibit P 00757 in the

10     Prosecution binder.  Sir, you told us, I believe, that in the last couple

11     of days that you knew Mr. Mazowiecki, excuse me, my apology, that you had

12     known him, you respected -- if I'm not mistaken, you said you respected

13     him, thought well of him.  And this is one of his reports dated the 17th

14     of November, 1992 and if I can please direct your attention to paragraph

15     62.  Fortunately, the paragraphs are numbered so in either translation

16     you should be able to find paragraph 62.

17             And in that paragraph, it says, "In particular, the special

18     rapporteur received information which reveals that ethnic minorities

19     living in the Republic of Croatia remain vulnerable to human rights

20     violations.  For example, a number of organisations representing the

21     Serbian minorities assert that the criteria prescribed for obtaining

22     Croatian citizenship discriminate against residents of non-Croatian

23     ethnic origin.  The organisation charged that ethnic Croats automatically

24     obtain citizenship regardless of the place or duration of their past

25     residence while minorities living in the Republic of Croatia despite

Page 28486

 1     often long-term residents commonly experience up to six month delays or

 2     simply refused citizenship."

 3             Now, did that situation come to your attention in 1992, 1993?

 4        A.   Mr. Scott, never was my attention directed at such cases, quite

 5     to the contrary, I know that all ethnic minorities received Croatian

 6     citizenship.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, isn't the problem that

 8     in this paragraph, in paragraph 62, we are talking about Serb minorities?

 9     As a result, we could understand that Serbian minorities had to wait for

10     a very long time, but as for people coming from Bosnia and Herzegovina

11     because they were considered as Croats because of the Turks and the 16th

12     century or the 12th century, it could be assumed that they would have

13     less difficulties than the Serbs.  Is that the case?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't provide a

15     simple answer to a whole host of ambiguous issues here.  As regards the

16     difficulties in granting citizenship, there were on the side of Croats as

17     well as on the side of the minorities, I mean Serbs, when I said that, if

18     the paperwork was not orderly.  If all the documents requested needed to

19     receive a certificate of citizenship were in order, there were no

20     problems.  As far as I understand, there were problems but Croats

21     encountered the same problems if they lacked the necessary documents to

22     be issued with such documents, to be issued with such a certificate.

23             When I referred to ambiguous issues, I had in mind the Muslims in

24     Bosnia who, as of the 16th century, were forced to take on Islam.  When I

25     previously spoke about the Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina which declare

Page 28487

 1     themselves to be Croatian, I had more recent times in mind, beginning

 2     with the late 19th century until the present day.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second, Witness.  This

 4     paragraph applies to minorities living, because in English they use the

 5     term "living," people living in Croatia.  These are not people who come

 6     to Croatia and there is a very big difference and it seems that the

 7     Special Rapporteur seems to be taking into account that the situation of

 8     minorities living in Croatia, i.e., Croatian residents, and not those

 9     coming from outside Croatia.  Is this the way you understand the text or

10     not?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My interpretation relates to

12     minorities in the Republic of Croatia.  I said that the same problems

13     were experienced by Croats if there were not documents which were in good

14     order, then someone, regardless of whether he was a member of the

15     minority or the majority population had problems because they had to

16     gather all the documents, and this would take months.  After all this

17     time today, in Croatia, this is no longer a problem because all the

18     minorities have their status of citizens of Croatia and it's in good

19     order.

20             MR. SCOTT:

21        Q.   If we could next please go to Exhibit P 01462 in the Prosecution

22     binder.  This is a report, again, by Mr. Mazowiecki dated the 10th of

23     February, 1993.  If I can direct your attention, please, to paragraph 118

24     in which the report expresses concern again, in particular, about the

25     discrimination against minorities who have been refused citizenship and

Page 28488

 1     are subjected to verbal and physical abuse.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, at this point, I will be objecting.

 3     I didn't object the first time because I thought maybe the Bench would

 4     have objected.  Now are we litigating the issues with the Serbs, the Serb

 5     minority in Croatia at a time of war when one-third of Croatia was being

 6     occupied --

 7             MR. SCOTT:  It says minorities.  It says minorities.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, there's a big difference between a minority

 9     in a constituent nation and I'm shocked that Mr. Scott doesn't realise

10     the difference and obviously had a problem earlier on, but now we're into

11     a different issue and I am objecting.  How large is the scope of the

12     indictment because we haven't been noticed that now we're taking on the

13     Serb minority issue in Croatia during this period and it's up to the

14     Trial Chamber to take control of the situation here.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is not something I had not

16     noticed.  This is the reason why I asked the previous question

17     highlighting the fact that paragraph 62 applies to the Serbs living in

18     Croatia, the Serbian minority in Croatia.  So now the Prosecutor

19     continues along this line, but if you want to waste your time this is

20     your problem.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  Where is it in the indictment?  Do I have to

22     defend against this?  Because that's what I want to know.  Am I going to

23     have to defend against this because then we need to call in other

24     witnesses.  I'm progressing under the assumption that we have an

25     indictment and the indictment stands as it is and I'm defending against

Page 28489

 1     this indictment.  Now we're talking about Serbs and a Serb minority at

 2     this period.  So now we're expanding the indictment and I object on the

 3     grounds of jurisdiction.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we're going to solve the

 5     problem.  Mr. Scott, according to you, do you believe that the Serb

 6     minorities are included in the indictment or do you ask this question

 7     from a general point of view?

 8             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, all the documents that I've shown to the

 9     witness in the last few minutes talk about minorities, not just Serbs,

10     and I believe it was Dr. Rebic who told us yesterday that in the Republic

11     of Croatia, there are only about 1 per cent Muslims in the population and

12     that sounds to me like a minority.  Whether they come, whether they were

13     born in Croatia, whether they came there from some place else, it is not

14     limited to Serbs, I don't know who suggested it was just talking about

15     Serbs.  The paragraphs that I've indicated mention Serbs but it mentions

16     minorities in general.

17             We've spent two days, three days talking about, you know, how all

18     these people were received from Croatia and how they were all treated so

19     well, et cetera so I'm entitled to respond to it, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you're not answering

21     the legal problem Mr. Karnavas has raised.  For the Prosecution, the Serb

22     minorities against which there was a discrimination, to get the status of

23     Croatians, are they included in the indictment or not?  Yes or no?  If

24     you say no, you will have -- you then explain that you take the example

25     of Serbian minorities just to show that there was a general

Page 28490

 1     discrimination policy.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  What you just said, Your Honour.  It's both general

 3     and applies to minorities -- I've already answered the question.  That

 4     there was a general policies and behaviour toward non-Croats, toward

 5     non-Croats including both Serbs and Muslims.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I mediate?

 7             MR. SCOTT:  We're not going to finish today, Your Honour, if we

 8     do this.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.  I'm waiting for

10     the registrar to tell me first how much time Mr. Scott still has left,

11     then I secondly I would like to remind Mr. Karnavas that if he has

12     additional questions, we -- and wants some redirect, we said that the

13     redirect time would be included in the time allocated to the direct

14     examination of the witness.  So theoretically, you have no time for

15     redirect because you've already used all the time you were allocated.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  [Previous translation continues] ... apply this

17     policy.  This is the first I've heard.  We went through 22 months and the

18     Prosecution never had that policy, now you're imposing a policy on me.  I

19     object to that first of all.

20             Second of all, there have been a lot of time being wasted --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is in the guidelines.

22     Guideline number 6, it is guideline number 6, read guideline number 6.

23             Mr. Scott, you've used three hours and 43 minutes.  So you can

24     now proceed to finish.

25             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 28491

 1        Q.   Sir, in Exhibit P 01462, if I can please ask you to turn to

 2     paragraph 136.  In the middle of that paragraph, it says, "The entry of

 3     refugees into Croatia has been restricted by the government to those

 4     holding a letter of a third country guaranteeing their settlement.

 5     Croatian Red Cross records show 700.000 registered refugees and displaced

 6     persons constituting 17 per cent of the Croatian population.  80 per cent

 7     of them live with Croatian families.  Most families receive material aid,

 8     et cetera, the refugees estimated 540.000 are mostly Muslims from Bosnia

 9     and Herzegovina."

10             Excuse me.  Well, I -- the question, sir, is did not the

11     situation, the discrimination as to the citizenship apply to the Muslims

12     coming from Bosnia-Herzegovina as we've seen and discussed in the

13     previous document and in this one?  "The entry of refugees into Croatia

14     has been restricted by the government to those holding a letter from a

15     third country guaranteeing their settlement."  And that's the only way,

16     sir, that people could come in to pass through Croatia at that time.

17     They would into the be given refugee status.

18             And, sir, that's the case I put to you and we've been talking

19     about now for the last two days if we can come right down to it.  Sir,

20     from July 1992 forward, undoubtedly a number of Muslims passed through

21     Croatia but it was, it became, and it continued to be the republic of the

22     state of Croatia, these persons would not be given refugee status, they

23     would be allowed, they would be given a transit visa, what was called a

24     transit visa, and allowed to pass through to some other country but not

25     to remain in Croatia, and these repeated documents that we put in front

Page 28492

 1     of you show could not apply for and would not receive refugee status.

 2     Isn't that the case?

 3        A.   No, that is absolutely not the case.  It's an erroneous

 4     conclusion.  One cannot draw general conclusions from individual

 5     examples.  It's true that there was some persons from Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina who asked for transit and they were granted transit only;

 7     therefore, they did not have the right to seek refugee status.  It's also

 8     true that persons who entered the Republic of Croatia, and they did,

 9     asking for refugee status were granted refugee status.  That's what is

10     true and correct.

11        Q.   Could I ask you, please, to go to Exhibit P 06697.  Sir, this is

12     a report from, again, from Mr. Mazowiecki.  This one dated the 20th of

13     November, 1993.  Directing your attention first of all to paragraph 136.

14     "Since the last report, the situation of the Muslim minority and refugees

15     in Croatia has become an area of concern.  According to the 1991 census,

16     43.469 persons or 0.9 per cent of the population of Croatia identified

17     themselves as Muslims."  Now, I'll stop there.

18             I think it was yesterday, perhaps, at some point since you've

19     been testifying you indicated you thought the Muslim population of

20     Croatia was somewhere around 1, perhaps 1 per cent, 1.5 per cent, so

21     would you agree that this is generally consistent with what you've said,

22     that there was something like 1 per cent or less of the Croatian

23     population was Muslim?

24        A.   According to this report, yes, it's 0.9 per cent, so it

25     corresponds more or less to my report or my statement.

Page 28493

 1        Q.   Referring your attention to paragraph 137, do you recall that

 2     there was increasing hostility expressed by the Croatian media against

 3     the Muslim minority and refugees in Croatia in 1993?

 4        A.   Not to a significant extent.  It's understandable that here and

 5     there in the Republic of Croatia, there were certain incidents, but I was

 6     never informed of any significant incidents.

 7        Q.   Can I direct can your attention, please, to paragraph 139.

 8     "There have been reports with many Muslims in Croatia have been denied

 9     citizenship although they were either born in Croatia or had lawful

10     residence in Croatia for several years, mentioning several villages."

11     Going on to say, "Almost 200 Muslims are said to have been denied

12     citizenship."  Now I'm just citing that as one example.

13             Were you not aware of the continuing concern that the Muslims who

14     found themselves in Croatia during this period were being denied Croatian

15     citizenship?

16        A.   Mr. Scott, I'm not aware that someone who had reason to obtain

17     Croatian citizenship and the requisite documents was denied that

18     citizenship.  I'm not aware of a single instance.

19        Q.   In paragraph -- directing your attention to paragraph 143, did

20     you become aware of any situations where Muslims were expelled from

21     Croatia by the Croatian police, handed over to the HVO military police in

22     Herceg-Bosna?

23        A.   I'm not aware of that, no.

24        Q.   Can I ask you next, please, to go to Exhibit P 07917.  Directing

25     your attention, sir, and this is the Mazowiecki report dated the 21st of

Page 28494

 1     February, 1994, directing your attention to paragraph 92, directing your

 2     attention to the second sentence in that paragraph, "Since the escalation

 3     of hostilities between the Bosnian Croat and the government forces in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, there has been a significant increase in harassment

 5     of local Muslims and Bosnian Muslim refugees by the authorities, the

 6     police, and especially soldiers returning from the front.  During his

 7     visit to Split, the Special Rapporteur received information concerning

 8     illegal and forced evictions," et cetera.

 9             Did that information come to your attention during this time?

10        A.   Mr. Scott, I was not informed of these matters although there

11     were incidents, but I was not informed, nor was I aware of any

12     significant incidents.

13        Q.   I direct your attention to paragraph 94.  Did you ever become

14     aware of continuing concerns, this is the fourth, now, report that we've

15     looked at by Mr. Mazowiecki.  In paragraph 94, the continuing concerns

16     with -- discriminatory treatment in connection with citizenship.  "The

17     Special Rapporteur has received reports concerning discriminatory

18     treatment of Croatian citizens, in this case, whose place of birth is

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They are discriminated against in obtaining

20     employment, social benefits," and did you know that was going on as to

21     people coming from Bosnia-Herzegovina, in particular, during this time?

22     Or did none of this information -- you're saying none of these

23     complaints, none of this information was coming to your attention?

24        A.   Mr. Scott, that's correct.  In the ODPR, none of this was drawn

25     to my attention.  What it says here about employment, I have to say that

Page 28495

 1     in the Republic of Croatia, unfortunately not even citizens of the

 2     Republic of Croatia could find work because it was wartime and there were

 3     no jobs.

 4        Q.   You've said in the course of your -- you've said in the course of

 5     your testimony that people were not sent back, they were never sent back

 6     to Bosnia-Herzegovina repatriated, returned, against their will.  Is that

 7     your position, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The ODPR of the Republic of Croatia never

 9     returned anyone by force.

10        Q.   You also told us, sir, that indeed there came a time that a

11     policy was adopted when refugee status was revoked or would be revoked

12     when it was determined that according to someone, which is what I'm going

13     to ask you about, decided that it was safe for some people to return to

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Now, you did tell us that, didn't you?

15        A.   That's correct, yes.

16        Q.   And who made the decision as to what location, what locations in

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina were considered "safe" for people to return,

18     refugees to return to?

19        A.   We received information when it came to Herzegovina from the

20     office of -- for displaced persons and other representatives of the local

21     authorities in the municipalities and municipal clubs which were familiar

22     with the local situation.  They knew it well.  Based on these reports, we

23     knew to which areas persons who had been expelled to go back and they did

24     go back.

25             We acted in the same way in the Republic of Croatia.  When some

Page 28496

 1     areas were liberated, we learned from the local authorities in the

 2     municipalities and then sent the displaced persons from those areas back.

 3        Q.   Tell me, give me an example, sir.  When you say the authorities

 4     in the municipalities or municipal club would make a determination that

 5     an area was safe.  Can you give us a concrete example of that?

 6        A.   There are specific examples in the documents.  Let's say, for

 7     instance, when we revoked refugee status from the area of western

 8     Herzegovina, then to that document or attached lists of villages which

 9     were safe to which the displaced persons could go back.  And we

10     constantly received requests from the Embassy of Bosnia-Herzegovina to

11     send refugees back to Bosnia-Herzegovina so that wherever the conditions

12     were in place, Bosnia-Herzegovina could be defended, built up, and so on.

13        Q.   Sir, are you telling us that if some social club in Stolac said

14     it was safe for people to come back there, that was good enough for your

15     organisation to start sending people back to Stolac?

16        A.   Not quite.  There were certain conditions that the regional

17     offices and centres for social welfare from the central -- received from

18     the central office.  The villages and towns were lists but there were

19     also conditions attached, persons whose houses had been destroyed should

20     not be sent back, persons who were ill, or parents who had children in

21     school, or persons who would not be safe in that place who would be

22     imperilled could not be sent back, and this referred to Muslims in the

23     Croatian areas and vice versa, Croats in the Muslim areas.

24        Q.   Sir, would you agree with me that you could take a given area in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time and it might very well be -- might

Page 28497

 1     be, might be considered safe for one ethnic group but not for another?

 2        A.   We did take that into account to avoid putting people in a

 3     dangerous situation.  That was a very important task of our office in

 4     agreement with the UNHCR.  When sending displaced persons and refugees

 5     back, we took care never to put them in a position where their lives

 6     would again be in danger.

 7        Q.   Did you, for example, at any time concerning the return of

 8     refugees or repatriation of refugees to Herzegovina, did you ever exclude

 9     or exempt Muslims from that policy on the theory that well, for most --

10     maybe it was safe for Croats to go back but not for Muslims.  Can you

11     tell the Judges whether you ever made that determination?

12        A.   Yes, the regional offices were informed of this.  They were

13     informed that what the refugee said about his safety or lack of safety in

14     his place of residence should be taken into account.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you on an individual case-by-case basis, but

16     can you tell the Judges, did your agency recognise that as to these

17     return policies, that they would apply, for example, as to Herzegovina,

18     they would apply to Croats but not to Muslims?

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, one it has been asked and answered

20     and two, Herzegovina, it's a fairly large place so -- but it has been

21     asked and answered and on an individual basis, that's the whole point,

22     that you discriminate, you know, where somebody can go and where somebody

23     can't go.  The question has been asked and answered.

24             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I don't know where Mr. Karnavas gets

25     this theory about asked and answered.  I'm entitled to probe the witness.

Page 28498

 1     I don't have to accept the first answer.  He -- and he didn't answer my

 2     question.  He said on "an individual basis" which was not my question.

 3        Q.   So I came back with my original which was:  "Was there a

 4     determination made in the area of Herzegovina, Herceg-Bosna, any of those

 5     areas where your agency decided that, well, look, for these areas, it's

 6     safe for Croats to go back, and we're going to apply -- we're going to

 7     revoke refugee status of Croats and send them back to Bosnia but for

 8     Muslims, we're not because it's not safe for Muslims to go back there."

 9     I'm not talking about on an individual case -- I'm talking as two groups

10     of people.  That's my question?

11        A.   My answer to you is that those areas were, in general, safe for

12     all persons and our office could not know whether all the refugees would

13     be safe on their way back.  That is why statements made by individuals

14     were taken into account and respected.  If a refugee complained to the

15     main office or the regional office that they personally did not feel safe

16     in the place where they were to return.

17        Q.   Sir, do you recall in a time that -- concerning this issue,

18     excuse me, do you recall that it was only after repeated interventions by

19     either Ms. Turkovic or Mr. Krajisnik that you indicated to your office,

20     to your field offices, that in fact a previous policy that you had

21     directed that you had issued about sending people back, that after their

22     interventions, you changed the policy to make it clear that in

23     Herzegovina, it would not be safe for Muslims to go back?  Now, do you

24     not remember that?

25        A.   Mr. Scott, I remember a meeting with representatives of the

Page 28499

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina embassy.  That meeting has already been mentioned by

 2     me in this courtroom.  It's correct that I received a letter where

 3     difficulties were put forward both by Mrs. Bisera Turkovic and

 4     Mr. Jadranko Prlic, and they said that this sort of general return to

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina was not yet possible.

 6             We had a long discussion.  We made a thorough analysis of the

 7     whole issue and together with Bisera, Krijsek [as interpreted], Tadic and

 8     Ragus, I immediately sent a clarification to all the regional offices

 9     saying that they should adhere to the conditions which were already in

10     place although they had not been expressly listed but the offices should

11     have known about them, so I just reminded the offices that they should

12     send refugees back only in an organised way, gradually, and in agreement

13     with the authorities, the local authorities, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14             And in addition to this, I stated quite clearly and gave

15     instructions that persons whose homes were destroyed should not be sent

16     back.  Persons who were ill and needed medical assistance in Croatia

17     should not be sent back.  Persons whose children were in school.  And

18     persons who felt threatened in their place of return.  All of those were

19     not to be sent back.  And that was respected and I had no further

20     complaints either from Mrs. Bisera Turkovic or from Mr. Jadranko Prlic.

21             We harmonised our standpoints in this process.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you please

23     tell me how much time is left?

24             Mr. Scott, you have ten minutes left.

25             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I would just like to say, just take

Page 28500

 1     about 30 seconds on this.  We are very concerned, we will let

 2     Mr. Karnavas fight his own specific battles about the re-examination of

 3     this witness of his, but we are very concerned, Your Honour, because in

 4     our submission, Your Honours are misapplying and, with respect, to some

 5     extent, misunderstanding your own guideline 6, paragraph 19, and at some

 6     point, Your Honour, we would like the opportunity of addressing you on

 7     that.  We appreciate the time constraints today, but we certainly do not

 8     wish any ruling to be made today which might be taken against us when we

 9     put down that marker that we do say that what Your Honours have said

10     about the time for direct examination, the time for examination-in-chief

11     also including re-examination time, it is just wrong on your own

12     guidelines.  So may we have that opportunity at a convenient point?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

14             Mr. Scott, you have ten minutes.

15             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Sir, just a final point on this question and then I'll go on

17     because I thought you had given us a clear answer, but I'm not sure as

18     your answer continued it was.  I put it to you, sir, that in October of

19     1993, after repeated interventions by Muslim authorities, that you

20     clarified very specifically that the direction to return to repatriate

21     refugees to Herzegovina only -- would only apply to Croat refugees and

22     not to Muslims.

23             Now, do you remember that?  Can you confirm that for us or not?

24        A.   I don't recall that but I can confirm in principle, in general,

25     that in Herzegovina it was quite safe for Croats to return and that Croat

Page 28501

 1     refugees were able to return and no longer needed to enjoy refugee

 2     status.  As regards Muslims, since the Serbs in the former JNA had

 3     occupied their areas and at that time, this amounted to about 70 per cent

 4     of Bosnia, return was not safe.

 5        Q.   All right, sir are, I'm going to -- we'll take it at that because

 6     we have to finish up here in the next few minutes.

 7             Let us go back to the situation regarding the Dretelj camp

 8     because you went to that camp with Dr. Granic and Mr. Prlic and others in

 9     late September 1993; is that correct?

10        A.   It's correct that I was there but I visited only once.  The way

11     it was interpreted to me, it could mean that I visited more than once but

12     it was actually only on one occasion.

13        Q.   Around the 23rd or 24th of September 1993, sir, you went to visit

14     the Dretelj camp and then there was a press conference, I believe, later

15     at Medjurgorje.  You recall that, don't you?

16        A.   Yes, I do, that's correct.

17        Q.   And when you went to the Dretelj camp and you visited that camp

18     at the time, can you recall to the Judges the condition of the prisoners,

19     the men who were being held in that camp, what was their condition as you

20     observed it?

21        A.   As soon as the government of the Republic of Croatia --

22        Q.   Sir, when you were at the camp, what did you see, sir?

23        A.   I'll answer.  First I have to have a dependent clause and then I

24     will give you my independent clause.  That's the rule of the Croatian

25     language, Croatian syntax.  As soon as the Croatian government learned

Page 28502

 1     what was happening, I went with Professor Granic, I was tasked by the

 2     government to go there to see what the situation was and to resolve it on

 3     the spot; that is, to take over the prisoners there and to give them

 4     refugee status in the Republic of Croatia and accommodate them.

 5        Q.   Sir, what was the condition of the men that you saw there when

 6     you were there in September 1993?  That's my question, sir.  And you know

 7     my time is limited.

 8        A.   It's very hard, after more than 15 years, to remember what these

 9     people looked like.  I did not have the impression that they looked the

10     way some media describe it, but to be a prisoner is certainly not

11     pleasant and cannot have good consequences for a person, but only bad

12     ones.

13        Q.   Sir, on every account, I dare say, every account and the

14     witnesses that have come before this Chamber, some of whom were

15     prisoners, have made it very clear that the condition of these men was

16     absolutely horrendous, they were emaciated, they were sick.  You're

17     saying you didn't see that or didn't seem to you a big deal or what are

18     you telling these Judges?

19        A.   No, Mr. Scott, that's not what I said.  I said I don't remember

20     precisely what they looked like, but they were certainly in a miserable

21     condition because every prisoner by virtue of being a prisoner is in a

22     miserable condition.  I didn't have time to inspect individuals.  Our

23     stay in Dretelj was very brief and my task was to get these people out as

24     soon as possible, as urgently as possible and accommodate them as

25     refugees in the Republic of Croatia.

Page 28503

 1        Q.   The answer you gave a moment ago on page 72 line 23, 24 was:  "I

 2     did not have the impression they looked the way some media described

 3     it ..." and frankly that came across as, they didn't look that bad to me.

 4     Now, are you changing your answer?  Did you see these men or not or maybe

 5     you didn't even go there.  Please tell the Judges.

 6        A.   I will say that some media stated that they were all like

 7     skeletons.  I didn't see any skeletons.  That's what I meant to say.  I

 8     didn't mean to say that they were in good condition.

 9        Q.   May I ask you, please, to turn to Exhibit P 10423.  P 10423.  I

10     may need the usher's assistance if he doesn't find it right away because

11     of the time.

12             Sir, in the diary that you provided which was marked as an

13     exhibit on Monday, you -- for an entry in that document for the -- at

14     10.00 on the 26th of April, 1993, you made this entry:  "Darinko Tadic,

15     head of office for refugees and displaced persons in Mostar.  A

16     conversation about the problems that Mr. Darinko Tadic faces not to let

17     the BiH citizens to the HVO territory unless they were born there, all

18     others are to be sent to Tuzla, Zenica, or abroad; provide assistance in

19     issuing customs permits for the aid that is destined also for

20     Herzegovina."

21             What can you tell us about that conversation, sir, with

22     Mr. Tadic?

23        A.   The first part of this entry refers to Tadic's statement that the

24     Office for Displaced Persons and Refugees in Herceg-Bosna was not

25     allowing citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina who had not been born in

Page 28504

 1     Herzegovina to come to Herzegovina but that those who were not born in

 2     Herzegovina were being sent by them to Tuzla, Zenica, or elsewhere and

 3     that they were only allowing those who were born in Herzegovina to go

 4     there.

 5             He asked me in the case of persons going to Croatia to provide

 6     assistance and also to ensure assistance with the customs, and they could

 7     only do that through me to make sure that the customs assisted when aid

 8     was coming from Croatia.

 9        Q.   Well, wait a minute.  What did you have to do with customs?  You

10     were ODPR.  What did you have to do with controlling customs and what

11     went in and out of Croatia?

12        A.   Mr. Scott, well that's what I said in my previous response.  I

13     didn't have anything to do with customs.  All I could do was mediate, ask

14     the customs authorities for assistance.

15             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Dr. Rebic.  I want to thank you for coming

16     to The Hague and giving your testimony.

17             THE WITNESS:  [In English] Thank you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  As indicated by the

19     Trial Chamber, there will be no redirect for -- and there is no redirect

20     for the party calling the witness unless that time is taken from the

21     examination-in-chief and we believe that there should be no redirect by

22     the other Defence counsel either, but following Mr. Stewart's

23     intervention, we'll consider the matter.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  For the record, I do wish to state for the record

25     you are violating my client's rights, his human rights, you are

Page 28505

 1     violating, we have time and I just want to make sure that we're

 2     absolutely clear that this time it is not due to some exit strategy by

 3     the UN but rather this is a calculated attempt by the Trial Chamber to

 4     deny Dr. Prlic's human rights.  I just want to make sure that the record

 5     is very clear.  You made your ruling, I respect your ruling.  I made my

 6     record for the appeal and for the public to see how we are being treated

 7     in this courtroom.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, let me answer.

10             Mr. Karnavas, we issued a ruling that was extremely clear.  We

11     stated that time dedicated to re-examination should be deducted from the

12     time granted for examination in chief.  In other words, if you request

13     four hours for a witness, you should use three and a half hours for the

14     examination in chief and half an hour for redirect.  That's your problem

15     it's not the Chamber's problem.  That's the meaning of guideline number

16     6.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  I requested five hours.  I requested five hours.

18     You said four.  I got some additional time.  That's number one.

19             Number two, there's time on the clock.

20             Number three, you gave me a certain amount of hours to put on my

21     case.  I'd asked for 146 hours or 150, I got 90, 95, whatever.  I'm

22     entitled to use that time how I see fit.  As long as I'm doing my job.

23     As long as I can demonstrate that what I'm asking are relevant questions

24     and questions that are not repetitive, I should be entitled to put on

25     case.  You've made your case, I understand it, I respect your decision,

Page 28506

 1     I'm on the record.  This is a violation of my client's human rights.

 2     Very well.  We can go now and dismiss for the rest of the week.  Thank

 3     you very much, Mr. President.

 4             MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.  I actually might have

 5     something to say with Your Honour's permission.  Your Honour said you

 6     would consider it.  I assume that I'm now able to make submissions on the

 7     point which I raised a moment ago.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have five minutes.

 9             MR. STEWART:  That should be enough, Your Honour, thank you.

10             It's -- Your Honour just said a few moments ago that you've made

11     an extremely clear ruling or given an extremely clear guideline.  Your

12     Honour, may we look at your guideline 6 paragraph 19 and see what it

13     actually says.  It says that -- well, 18 is worth looking at, at that

14     point, when this order was made on the 24th of April, the Trial Chamber

15     said in paragraph 18 under guideline 6 that it would render a separate

16     decision regarding the time that the Defence teams would have for

17     presentation of their cases, which you did very shortly afterwards, you

18     gave certification in that decision and that is under appeal.  So the

19     question of the overall time for the Defence cases is certainly very

20     contentious and is under appeal now.

21             Paragraph 19 of your guideline says that the time allocated to a

22     Defence team to present its case shall first include the time used for

23     the direct examination and re-examination of its Defence witnesses.  Now,

24     Your Honour, we don't like that.  I want to make it clear that the

25     Defence do not like that guideline, and we are appealing the whole matter

Page 28507

 1     as I've indicated, but what it clearly means as it stands is that you add

 2     together -- if we've got 55 hours for the Petkovic case, that you add

 3     together time taken for examination-in-chief or direct examination with

 4     time taken in re-examination, and all that time together is to be done

 5     within the 55 hours.  And going right back to the very beginning of these

 6     time allocations, when you ordered 400 hours for the Prosecution case,

 7     that was how it was done.  It was to be the direct examination,

 8     examination-in-chief, and re-examination were all to be done within that

 9     400 hours.  And we know the painful history of all the reductions and so

10     on but that was the basic position.  That's quite different from what

11     Your Honours are now saying which is when a specific allocation is given

12     for a specific witness of time for direct examination, that if that's all

13     used up, then there is no time left for re-examination.

14             Mr. Karnavas is 100 per cent right.  That is not the way the

15     matter was dealt with when the Prosecution examined its witnesses.  If it

16     was given three hours for examination in chief, it had -- usually you

17     could say, use the three hours for examination in chief, there was never

18     any suggestion that they wouldn't also be able to re-examine that

19     witness; although, according to the Chamber's guidelines on the -- if you

20     like the bigger issue, the macro issue as opposed to the micro issue of

21     witnesses, that time was to be counted to the overall allocation.

22             Your Honour, I just add this, the incorrect, as we strongly

23     submit, the incorrect interpretation of Your Honour's own guideline is

24     completely unworkable.  You're given 4 hours to examine in chief.  You've

25     got a choice between not using the whole of that four hours in case, as a

Page 28508

 1     result of the cross-examination, you might need time for re-examination.

 2     You can't possibly know until you've heard the cross-examination.  Well,

 3     sorry, if there is a cross-examination as my learned friends remind me,

 4     but you can't know until you've heard the cross-examination how much

 5     you're going to need for re-examination.  Nobody can say that.

 6             So you either give up some of your time in case there is a

 7     cross-examination in case you need to re-examine, or you end up with the

 8     result that Your Honours' indication earlier on this evening would lead

 9     to which we say, frankly, is a ridiculous result, we put it as strongly

10     as that, as you now say Mr. Karnavas has done, used up all his time and

11     doesn't get to re-examination when elementary justice requires that once

12     there's been a cross-examination, if there is a legitimate basis and if

13     there are legitimate questions to be asked in re-examination, it simply

14     cannot be right and it cannot be a fair trial to prevent a party from

15     doing it.  Irrelevant questions, Your Honours can always stop those if

16     there isn't a genuine re-examination, but we do submit that what Your

17     Honour indicated about 10 or 15 minutes ago is completely wrong and

18     certainly it means, although there is not much time left today, it

19     certainly means, but he can fight his own battles as I've said, if

20     Mr. Karnavas genuinely needs to re-examine then the Petkovic Defence

21     position in support of him would be that and he should have it.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one word on this point

23     concerning the status of refugees.  We have spent about almost two weeks

24     because we had two witnesses who discussed this issue.  Okay.  So we

25     could spend three weeks and months if you want, but I believe that I have

Page 28509

 1     sufficient information about the issue.  If I thought that we would have

 2     needed additional questions, re-examinations in this field, I would have

 3     allocated additional time.

 4             On the other hand, I have asked a lot of questions on this issue.

 5     Paragraph 19 of guideline number 6 is clear enough on this point.  It

 6     clearly indicates that the party examining must take into account the

 7     fact that re-examinations are included in the time allocated and if you

 8     all believe that this witness is important, nothing impedes you from

 9     asking him to come back.  This is what I wanted to say.

10             So witness, I would like to thank you for coming here and I would

11     like to wish you a nice trip back home.

12             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, again, I really do not wish to fight

13     Mr. Karnavas's battles but some of his battles are also our battles, and

14     if it's not using too Karnavasian language, Your Honour, the Petkovic

15     Defence will not accept a position where Your Honours take it upon

16     yourselves to decide for us whether we need to re-examine.  Once we start

17     re-examining, if we go into completely irrelevant, completely useless

18     areas, then Your Honours of course have the overriding right to stop that

19     because that's abusive and it's unprofessional, but I'm quite confident

20     that Ms. Alaburic is not going to do that and I hope I don't do it

21     myself.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, redirects are

23     authorised based on the decision of the Trial Chamber.  This is in the

24     rules and that you know as well as I do.  It is mentioned in the rules,

25     re-examinations authorised about the Chamber.

Page 28510

 1             MR. STEWART:  With respect, may I ask a question it's not usual.

 2     I don't understand which rule Your Honour is referring to?

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, if you have any

 4     problems, do it in writing and we will answer your questions.  Say it in

 5     writing and we will answer.  That's what I want to say.

 6             MR. STEWART:  With respect, Your Honour, I'm not going to be so

 7     insolent as to invite Your Honours to answer my question in writing, but

 8     I do need an answer to the question because I simply do not understand

 9     now what point Your Honour is making, what rule Your Honour is referring

10     to, and we cannot make sensible --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart.  First of all, the

12     additional time for the questions of the party examining is included in

13     the time decided -- allocated by the Chamber before the direct

14     examination and second point, there are no redirect for the other teams,

15     Defence teams.

16             Now, if you do not agree, you can appeal.

17             MR. STEWART:  [Previous translation continues] ... re-examination

18     of Mr. Karnavas's witness.  I'm putting down a marker for the Petkovic

19     team that when it comes to our witnesses, it is not for the Trial Chamber

20     to decide at the end of cross-examination that we have no re-examination.

21     It is for us in the first place to decide whether we need probably to

22     re-examine subject to the overriding ways of the Trial Chamber to rule it

23     out as irrelevant.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is the reason why I'm

25     telling you that you should state it in writing and we will answer.  I

Page 28511

 1     now would like to thank the witness and I would like to ask the usher to

 2     take him out, to accompany him, and next week we will have another

 3     witness, a witness of Mr. Prlic, he will be here for four days as

 4     mentioned in the filings.  That's all I meant to say.

 5             Well, I wish you a nice trip back, Witness, because you told us

 6     that this week you had to travel.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I thank you for your

 8     good wishes and I wish you all success in your work.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  The

11     hearing is adjourned.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.24 p.m.

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of May,

14                           2008 at 2.15 p.m.