Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29607

 1                           Thursday, 19 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 7     case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al. Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Today is Thursday, 19th of June.

13             Good afternoon, Witness.

14             Good afternoon to the accused and Defence counsel and the OTP

15     representatives, as well as all the people helping us.

16             A brief reminder, housekeeping matter, the second break will only

17     be 15 minutes long so that we can finish today at 25 past 6.00, so it

18     will be 15 minutes, not 20.

19             Without further ado, Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

21     Good afternoon.

22             Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

23                           WITNESS:  MILE AKMADZIC [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica: [Continued]

Page 29608

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all the other

 3     microphones be switched off, please.  There is a lot of background noise.

 4     Thank you.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We looked at a document yesterday, the last one that we looked at

 7     was 2D 00228.  On the 28th of January, 1993, Mr. Arif Pasalic gave an

 8     order to prevent any supply of weapons to the HVO in that document.

 9     Could we now please look a the next document, it's 2D 00229, this is

10     already an exhibit which means it's been used in the courtroom before.

11             Can you please focus on paragraph 2.  This is another document

12     from the 4th Corps command.  Mr. Arif Pasalic signed the document roughly

13     a month before the ban in the other border, or rather, after the

14     transport of weapons to the HVO.

15             Paragraph 2 reads:  "On the day of 27th February, 1993, the BiH

16     army 4th Corps main coordinator for logistical security on relation of

17     the 4th Corps of the BH army and the SDA headquarters in Zagreb,

18     Hasan Cengic submitted the documents and no longer wishes to coordinate

19     because of parallel distribution of money by the Supreme Command

20     headquarters.  Mr. Safet Orucevic successfully performed our main tasks

21     regarding the entrance of goods with the HVO until now."

22             Mr. Akmadzic, there is a reference here to something that you

23     confirmed in chief.  You said there was a logistics centre in Croatia

24     being used for the purposes of sending supplies to the BH army, right?

25        A.   Yes, I know about that, there was several such centres, in fact.

Page 29609

 1        Q.   Yes, that's right.  In this document Mr. Pasalic says that

 2     Mr. Safet Orucevic was successful up until the month of February

 3     negotiating the transit of goods for the benefit of the HVO.  In the

 4     other document we saw him banning any transports of weapons, mines,

 5     explosives, manpower for the purposes of the HVO.  Do we see a dual

 6     standard at work here on the one hand sending weapons to the HVO through

 7     HVO-controlled territory and then on the other hand we see that very same

 8     commander issuing another order banning any supplies or weapons from

 9     passing through the territory under their control for the purposes of the

10     HVO?

11        A.   Yes, that's quite right.  However, I think there are several

12     persons appearing here and they were not perfectly in agreement among

13     themselves.  If you look at this letter I think what it shows is that

14     Mr. Cengic and Mr. Orucevic were not towing the same line as it were.

15             Another thing that this shows is that up until this point the

16     cooperation with the HVO about weapons and other equipment and bringing

17     those in had been very successful.

18        Q.   Mr. Akmadzic, does this tally with what you know about

19     developments at the time quite aside from the document?

20        A.   Yes, this tallies with what I knew.

21        Q.   Talking about the weapons supplies I would like to show you

22     another document, the next document in my binder, this is 1D 2458.  This

23     is a letter by the Ministry of Energy mining and industry of the BH

24     government dated the 14th of February, 1993.  The letter is signed by

25     Minister Rusmir Mahmut Cehajic.  The document is addressed to

Page 29610

 1     Mr. Arif Pasalic, the commander of the 4th Corps.

 2             Have you ever seen this document, because I realize that it was

 3     part of the Prlic Defence proofing with you?

 4        A.   I'm familiar with this document.  I'm not sure if I had a chance

 5     to read it, but it looks familiar.

 6        Q.   In this document Mr. Rusmir Mahmut Cehajic is informing

 7     Mr. Pasalic about the circumstances in Mostar.  He is telling him about

 8     his views or perhaps the government's views on strengthening state

 9     authority.  That's what the introduction says.  Let me ask you something

10     about a portion on page 1 in the English, it's page 2 in the Croatian.  I

11     think you have a fairly good Croatian copy on the screen, I'm not sure if

12     you can see it clearly.  It's where it says:  "Supply of oil products."

13             As prime minister did you know about this communication at the

14     time?  It is obvious that it was between this ministry and the 4th Corps

15     command alone, excluding the HVO, they were not part of the process.

16        A.   Yes, at the time we were receiving oil, it came in as aid shipped

17     to us by a number of different countries.  This is about oil derived --

18     this is about crude oil.  We obtained oil-derived products from Croatia

19     among other countries.  Mr. Mahmut Cehajic was the energy minister.

20             He had certain powers authorising him to use oil and other types

21     of energy that were available.  We did in principle have an agreement

22     about the equal distribution of oil between the HVO and the BH army as

23     well as other citizens of the BH, perhaps Mostar and other such places,

24     and it was also agreed that certain shipments would make it to Sarajevo.

25     Sarajevo was facing huge problems, but the shipments still made it.

Page 29611

 1             Nevertheless, if I look at this authorisation, I don't think it

 2     entirely denies this right.  It is just that the HVO's right to use part

 3     of this oil is not specified.  Be that as it may, if you look at this

 4     letter you can see that Mr. Mahmut Cehajic issued certain orders,

 5     disregarding for the moment the political aspect which anyway wasn't

 6     something that he was supposed to keep in mind.  It's about making sure

 7     that the oil got to those places that he specified in good time.

 8        Q.   Mr. Akmadzic, let me try to underline something that I found to

 9     be of particular importance during your examination.  This document seems

10     to show unequivocally that oil derivatives -- the document claims that

11     there was sufficient quantities of those to meet the basic needs of the

12     population as well as the state bodies.  The oil derivatives belonging to

13     the republic, Bosnia and Herzegovina, were reaching the port of Ploca and

14     were being stored in the Energopetrol warehouse there.  There is one

15     thing I would like to raise here, this document shows unequivocally that

16     we're talking about the port of Ploca, this was Croatia's territory.  So

17     there were warehouses in Croatia's territory where oil was being kept to

18     be used by the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and also for the

19     purposes of the military and the civilian population.  Is that right?

20        A.   Yes, that's perfectly right.

21        Q.   Another thing that one can tell if one looks at this document is

22     that this oil was then shipped to areas described by Mr. Mahmut Cehajic

23     as free territory and to Zagreb as well?

24        A.   I said to Sarajevo.

25        Q.   Yes, indeed, to Sarajevo.  There was no other way but for these

Page 29612

 1     goods to on its way there cross territory that was HVO-controlled, right?

 2        A.   Yes, it had to cross HVO-controlled territory, but that territory

 3     was not considered unfree, quite the contrary; in fact, it was considered

 4     part of the so-called free territory.

 5        Q.   All right.  Just about this last thing you said.  The letter does

 6     not show that the HVO was included in this distribution.  You, however,

 7     do claim that there was an agreement about this.  This letter authorises

 8     two persons to sign the distribution order, Mr. Hadjit [phoen] Devic and

 9     Mr. Mahmut Cehajic?

10        A.   Indeed.  The Mahmut Cehajic in this document is

11     Rusmir Mahmut Cehajic's brother or at least that's what I believe.  He

12     was in charge of the logistics as well.  No HVO members or, indeed,

13     Croats are mentioned in this document.  I believe, although I'm not

14     certain, that had there been a request by the HVO pursuant to our

15     previous agreement they would have had no choice but to distribute

16     certain appropriate quantities of oil and other goods to us as well.

17        Q.   Fine.  I will now move on briefly to another topic that was

18     raised in chief.  Can we please have 1D 1521.  This is a letter that

19     Mate Boban and you signed on the 18th of January, 1993.  My learned

20     friend Mr. Karnavas asked you questions about some portions of the

21     letter, but there's one thing that I would like to ascertain.  Towards

22     the bottom of page 1, I think the English and the Croatian copies are the

23     same in this respect:

24             "The Republic of BH defence minister, following our approval,

25     gave an order for all of the three national armies, in keeping with the

Page 29613

 1     decisions of the Geneva Conference should withdraw to their own

 2     provinces, which should be an effective move in relation to the aggressor

 3     Serb army which was also supposed to withdraw."

 4             We're looking at an order issued by the defence minister of the

 5     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Can we now please go to our next

 6     document, it's the next document in that binder, this is 2D 1409.  Just

 7     by way of confirmation, is this the order that you invoked a while ago,

 8     sir?

 9        A.   Yes, this is the order, it was signed by the defence minister,

10     Bozo Rajic.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now I'd like to move on briefly, as I said,

12     to something that I had announced, something that was not raised in

13     chief.  Mr. Akmadzic, throughout 1992 to be more specific or late in 1992

14     and in 1993 were you in touch with Mr. Bagaric from the health centre of

15     the HVO defence, something to do with medical supplies, medical aid, for

16     both the HVO and the BH army?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you remember anything about that?  I'm trying to slow down

19     just to make sure that everything is reflected in the transcript.

20        A.   Yes, indeed, I do remember that.  We agreed that appropriate

21     bodies in the HVO, as well as appropriate bodies in the BH army, should

22     cooperate in this regard.  We also agreed that the health ministry which

23     was part of the government of which I was prime minister would also be

24     working along.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Nozica, excuse me, on the record I do not

Page 29614

 1     find what we're talking about, the number of the document.  It seems that

 2     it is the next one, 2D 544, but I did not find that in the record.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't even refer to

 4     the document.  I'm building up a foundation in order to then be able to

 5     continue to ask questions based on specific documents.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Speaking of documents, let us first look at this other document

 9     that you told us a little about this is 2D 705, that's the following one,

10     that's the one after 2D 544, this was a letter that was addressed to you,

11     a letter addressed to you by Mr. Bagaric on the 21st of December, that's

12     what we're talking about, isn't it.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   It follows from this letter that Mr. Bagaric was in contact with

15     Mr. Robert Simon, president of the International Medical Corps of

16     California who shipped some aid to the HVO.  Mr. Bagaric, however, is now

17     adamant that the aid should go to the BH army, and that is why he wants

18     you to write another letter that he would co-sign together with you as

19     well as the chief medical officer of the BH army.  Is that what follows

20     from this?

21        A.   Yes, and this is more in reference to future aid rather than the

22     aid that had arrived up until this point, and I think it's more about the

23     two armies, the BH army and the HVO.  It's not about the 3rd Army, the

24     remaining army, so to speak, that's why we were required to as good as

25     provide a definition of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We were

Page 29615

 1     supposed to say loud and clear in a we were victims of an aggression in

 2     order to be able to receive aid like this.

 3        Q.   So the previous document that we skipped is 2D 544, and it is a

 4     document in which Mr. Bagaric is addressing the commander of the medical

 5     corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the main surgeon of BH, offering

 6     the possibility of the two of them asking assistance from this

 7     non-governmental organization together.

 8             And this completes the subject matter we've just been discussing;

 9     isn't that right?

10        A.   Yes, and I took certain steps through our health ministry along

11     those lines, I don't know whether the main surgeon in the BH -- or

12     rather, whether the BH army had that title, but certainly something that

13     corresponded to it, whether it was chief surgeon or something else.

14        Q.   Now to round off that topic of oil, weapons, and so on, this

15     document speaks of the existence of cooperation, does it not, between the

16     BH army and the HVO in the struggle against a joint enemy, and that was

17     the Serbs -- or as you said yesterday in response to a question from the

18     Judge, evidence of the partnership in that joint struggle against the

19     aggressor, or rather, against the Serbs during that period of time?

20        A.   Yes, I use the term partnership because we didn't have a Joint

21     Command formed at that time.  We had two armies that were component parts

22     of the BH armed forces.  We had the Supreme Command, which was the

23     Presidency, and the defence minister, we had a joint defence minister, so

24     that in fact we did not have a Joint Command.  So that is why I speak

25     about partner armies and not one and the same army.  But in fact they

Page 29616

 1     were the same armed force, the same armed forces.

 2        Q.   This was the topic that was touched upon during the

 3     examination-in-chief.  I'd like to -- that was not touched upon during

 4     the examination-in-chief, and now I'd like to go on to another subject

 5     which was the subject of the examination-in-chief.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

 7             One follow-up question, Witness.  You have just spoken about the

 8     Joint Command and about the parts played respectively by the HVO and the

 9     BH army, and I'm not quite satisfied with your answer.  I want to know

10     more.  The Joint Command, as it was envisaged by the Presidency, if you

11     go back to what can be seen usually on the ground, think of Iraq or

12     Afghanistan when there are several armies, there is always one commander

13     above it all because there may be a Joint Command, but as such it is

14     necessary to have one not many commanders.

15             Now, in the situation that you experienced, now how could that

16     problem be solved when you had two armies and a Joint Command, wasn't

17     there a need for one single leader?  And if there was such a leader who

18     was the civilian superior of the military leader, was it the Presidency

19     as a whole or was it the president of the Presidency?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was the Presidency

21     as a whole, as an entity.  The War Presidency, of which I was a member,

22     so I myself was part of the Supreme Command.  Now, in response to your

23     question about the Joint Command in the military sense, I had said that

24     we still had not formed a Joint Command in that sense.  It was much later

25     on that that Joint Command was formed, quite a lot later.

Page 29617

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Ms. Nozica.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Witness, that is the reason why you used the word "partner," if I

 4     understood you correctly, precisely because a Joint Command did not

 5     exist?

 6        A.   Absolutely correct.

 7        Q.   And when the Vance-Owen Plan was evolved, you wanted to establish

 8     that kind of Joint Command so that there should not be a conflict let

 9     alone that the conflict should start?

10        A.   The Vance-Owen Plan did provide for a Joint Command, we insisted

11     on upon that, there was discussion about it, but as I've already said it

12     was to be established only much later on, around the Washington Accords.

13        Q.   I'm not going to go back to that.  We heard quite a lot about it

14     during the examination-in-chief, and you explained it very well, I think,

15     the reason for which the Joint Command was not established sooner.  But

16     this was just a continuation of the explanation of what you said earlier

17     on.

18             I'd like to ask you now to take a look once again briefly at

19     document 1D 00509, and it has the force of law, a decree with the power

20     of law, on the establishment and work of districts which the Presidency

21     of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina passed following a government

22     recommendation.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, for my cross-examination I'd like us to look at Article 6,

25     please, and we can see how many districts were established and under

Page 29618

 1     number 2 we have Bihac district, the Bihac district with headquarters in

 2     Bihac, and later on I'm going to ask you something about that particular

 3     district.  But before we do that, let's take a look at another document,

 4     it is 2D 1410, the next document in line.  And that document was shown to

 5     you by Mr. Karnavas as well.  It is an authorisation which

 6     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic signed for Zijad Demirovic, president of the

 7     Regional Board for the SDA for Herzegovina so that he could head the

 8     expert team to be set up by the Regional Board and then undertake certain

 9     actions.

10             What I'd like to ask you is this:  Since this deals with the

11     establishment of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, does this document show

12     that Mr. Izetbegovic preferred to have this establishment done through

13     the SDA, that is to say the political party which he led, was that your

14     experience, rather than through the official organs of the elected powers

15     and authorities elected at the first democratic elections?

16        A.   I think that when we're talking about the Muslims the SDA party

17     was victorious so that in that area it was his wish and right to use that

18     channel, to say that the representatives of the Muslim people should hold

19     negotiations with the representatives of Croatian people.  And he decided

20     to take that step, and I don't think it was a very auspicious one, not a

21     good one.  But he decided to work through the SDA and that was a parallel

22     form of work, actually, within the Presidency that I've already

23     discussed.

24        Q.   Does this document in fact confirm that during the agreements and

25     negotiation -- or rather, during developing the agreement, does this

Page 29619

 1     confirm that it just actually represents the Muslim people?

 2        A.   Yes, it just represents the Muslim people, and this authorisation

 3     we see has just his signature, no stamp, no Presidency mentioned

 4     anywhere, and at the top it says "democratic action," not Presidency of

 5     the BH.  So this authorisation refers to him solely as president of the

 6     party and not president of the Presidency.

 7        Q.   I'd now like to ask you to tell us something about this -- well,

 8     a little while ago one of the Judges asked a witness a question here, I

 9     can't mention his name, but were there other Presidency members who

10     worked outside Sarajevo during the war, especially members of the

11     Presidency of the Muslim ethnicity?  And I'm -- I'm saying Muslim, but I

12     know that after the Dayton Accords that ethnicity was referred to as the

13     Bosniaks.  But as we are discussing 1992, that period of time, without

14     insulting anyone I'm using the same terms that you're using.  Am I right

15     there?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So taking this period of 1992, from the beginning of the war,

18     let's say April onwards, were there members of the Presidency who for a

19     time acted outside the Presidency, or rather, who left Sarajevo in other

20     words?

21        A.   Yes, the Presidency passed a decision moreover to the following

22     effect, that some members of the Presidency may leave Sarajevo, although

23     they could not be prohibited from leaving Sarajevo but they could be

24     allowed to do so, in order to organize political activities and a system

25     of defence where they would be going.  And in this specific case, in

Page 29620

 1     response to your question, from Sarajevo Mr. Franjo Boris left and

 2     Mr. Fikret Abdic left.

 3        Q.   I'd now like to ask you, as my question referred to the Muslim

 4     Presidency members, that we focus precisely on Fikret Abdic.  Can you

 5     tell the Trial Chamber briefly who the man was, what the results were at

 6     the first democratic elections, how Mr. Abdic did there, when he left

 7     Sarajevo, and whether he disagreed with Alija Izetbegovic's policy in

 8     that year of 1992 or 1993?

 9        A.   I'll try and be brief, otherwise it could be a very long and

10     involved story.  During the Yugoslav period, the communist period,

11     Mr. Fikret Abdic was the director of Agrokomerc a large firm in western

12     Bosnia.  At the elections or the pre-electoral campaign in actual fact,

13     the SDA party led the campaign but did not have much success until

14     Fikret Abdic joined the party.  Once Fikret Abdic had joined the party,

15     especially at the rallies that were held, people came to them, double the

16     amount of people came to these rallies, he was very popular in Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina especially in the Bihac and Cazin and Kladusa areas.  At the

18     elections for the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina on behalf of the SDA

19     party Fikret Abdic won, Izetbegovic and Ganic -- Izetbegovic as a Muslim

20     and Ganic as the others, and the most votes were secured by Fikret Abdic.

21     And he and many others - I'm not going to say all of them - but many

22     others expected him to become president of the Presidency.

23             Mr. Izetbegovic, as president of the SDA party, won the support

24     in the Main Board of the party, where the decisions are made, that he

25     should be nominated as president of the Presidency, and that was what was

Page 29621

 1     done, he was.  However, Fikret Abdic was bitter about this as far as I

 2     know, but he didn't express his bitterness at the Presidency meetings.

 3        Q.   Can you tell me now whether you know when he left Sarajevo,

 4     that's the second part of my question, and whether while he was a member

 5     of the Presidency he expressed his disagreement with the positions taken

 6     by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic; and if so, what points did they disagree on?

 7        A.   Mr. Fikret Abdic did leave Sarajevo as far as I remember --

 8        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Judge Trechsel has a question.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Without wishing to teach you lessons or

10     interfere, I think you have now several times asked four or five

11     different questions in one, and I was suggesting that one might even gain

12     time if you put them one by one, let him answer; next one.  Because as we

13     have seen it is so much that towards the end you have to ask the question

14     again.  Just as an attempt at assisting.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.  I wanted to

16     move forward faster, but obviously I'm not doing that, so I'll take it

17     one by one.

18        Q.   Let me go back to my question.  When according to you did

19     Fikret Abdic leave Sarajevo?

20        A.   I think it was around July 1992.

21        Q.   And where did he go?

22        A.   He went to Kladusa, where is western Bosnia, whole area of

23     western Bosnia.  His firm -- not his firm, a state firm Agrokomerc was in

24     Kladusa and through his activities as a politician he covered the whole

25     of western Bosnia.

Page 29622

 1        Q.   Can you tell us, if you remember, which issues did

 2     Fikret Abdic -- or rather, what subjects did Mr. Fikret Abdic disagree

 3     with Izetbegovic, on what issues?

 4        A.   Well, there were quite a few issues.  I'd like to stress here

 5     that Mr. Fikret Abdic was not satisfied with the way in which the

 6     meetings were prepared.  He was dissatisfied with the topics discussed at

 7     the meetings because he insisted that the Presidency should discuss

 8     economic topics, give priority to economics.  He was dissatisfied with

 9     the discussions over Bosnia's internal set-up, and he was even

10     dissatisfied with the organization of the army.

11        Q.   Did he express his dissatisfaction with the Islamization of the

12     Bosnian army at the time or immediately afterwards in 1993?

13        A.   Well, at the material time, the time we're discussing now, he

14     didn't expressly bring that up; however, he did speak about that subject

15     later on and he sent documents to the Presidency, he sent them through me

16     too, because when I was the general secretary that's what I would do, I

17     would convey these documents.  And when he became conscious of the fact

18     or when it became obvious that the army was moving towards Islamization,

19     he stood up against it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's look at another document, it's 2D, and it's

21     the last document I'm going to put to you, 2D 1408 is the number, and

22     it's a document which was signed precisely by Mr. Fikret Abdic, it is

23     information about some characteristics in the Bihac district -- about the

24     situation in the Bihac district, the date is the 14th of April, 1993.  I

25     think you've seen this document before, haven't you?

Page 29623

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Then we'll just say that he describes the existing situation on

 3     page 1 and 2, then he goes on to -- well, this document is linked to the

 4     establishment of the districts and the decree that had the force of law,

 5     districts and their work and functioning, and he sets all this out in

 6     this piece of information.  He says that everything is going badly and

 7     that the political cadres are paying more attention to themselves than to

 8     state interests, but what is important for us here is to be found on page

 9     4.  That's the Croatian reference.  It's page 3 in the English, the last

10     paragraph on that page.

11             Fikret Abdic talks about some problems that were widespread

12     throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, but these problems are of particular

13     importance to us here.  It says:

14             "This idea, this danger that was on account of great conspicuity

15     notice, created, designed elaborated on, well-argued, and most

16     importantly implemented by preserving the rest of commodity reserves

17     foreign currency saved up by the population and by saving up more than 50

18     million mark that the population would have to pay for because of rising

19     prices which would follow as a result.  A theory was tabled in opposition

20     to this that this temporary deduction of foreign means of payment was

21     aimed against the Republic of the BH, its sovereignty, meaning against

22     the people.  This would have constituted a case of serious manipulation

23     involving the people of the BH, because neither the BH dinar could have

24     been accepted because of the interruption of cash flow, undue

25     interventions, unrealistic foreign currency rate, unequal distribution of

Page 29624

 1     funds throughout municipalities, communication blockades with the

 2     remaining parts of the Republic of B&H and because of not being able to

 3     obtain raw material and auxiliary goods to ensure means of payment

 4     outside the Bihac district."

 5             Mr. Akmadzic, what seems to follow from this is that Mr. Abdic on

 6     a temporary basis introduced the German mark as a means of payment, as a

 7     currency, precisely because of the problems he's here referring to, and

 8     because of that he was accused of undermining the sovereignty and the

 9     people of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as everything else.  He's here

10     explaining a number of technical problems that he was facing with the

11     currency in the Bihac area.  Do you remember the situation being the way

12     he describes it?

13        A.   Yes, you refer to these as technical problems.  They weren't just

14     technical problems, they were problems that went deeper than that.  I

15     mean, it wasn't just the Bihac area, it was further afield as well.  This

16     goes back to the very beginning of the war.

17             The Yugoslav dinar, which then still existed as a valid currency

18     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, was a worthless piece of paper, that's how he

19     described it.  You could only use this currency in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20     You could purchase the goods and then sell them at a higher price and in

21     exchange for a proper currency elsewhere, outside Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22     In Bosnia and Herzegovina it was very difficult to introduce money.

23     Money, currency, was produced abroad and then because of the blockade

24     around Sarajevo it was very difficult to get it into Bosnia, it was very

25     difficult to start using it, and this new currency was not something that

Page 29625

 1     came from the national bank, it was more like vouchers rather than money.

 2        Q.   I apologise.  To be quite specific, you're talking about the BH

 3     dinar, that's what Mr. Abdic is talking about, right?

 4        A.   Yes, at first it was the Yugoslav dinar and then we had the BH

 5     dinar.  It was very difficult to get it into circulation because of all

 6     these problems Croatia's dinar or the German mark were still being used

 7     in some parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a legitimate currency of

 8     payment.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, let's move on to other problems faced by the

10     Bihac district, if you look at page 6 in the Croatian, and I think in the

11     English the reference is page 5, paragraph 2, what is it saying, what is

12     Mr. Abdic saying there in April of 1994?  He says in April 1993 the

13     regulations passed by the highest authorities reached this area a half a

14     year later than they were supposed to.  When they eventually reached the

15     area, one could tell that the provisions envisaged in those regulations

16     were impossible to implement because they did not apply to the state of

17     war.  They were particularly impossible to carry through in an area that

18     was entirely encircled.  There was no communication at all and no

19     directives from the republican bodies.

20             You are aware of the problems addressed here by Mr. Abdic.  In

21     purely geographical terms I think everyone here knows about the distance

22     between Bihac and Sarajevo, and that's precisely what he's talking about,

23     this impossibility to communicate?

24        A.   Yes, I'm perfectly aware of those problems.  I'm aware of the

25     problems faced by Bihac while I was under siege.  I'm aware of the

Page 29626

 1     problems that kept occurring as the war went on.  I know about the fact

 2     that the cooperation between the HVO and the BH army in that area was

 3     particularly good, despite the fact that our chief HVO commander in the

 4     area had been killed.  They were working well together, but this did not

 5     shield them from accusations.  The accusations came in a way from

 6     Sarajevo, and these accusations even went as far as to insinuate that

 7     what they wanted was to join Croatia, which was simply untrue.  I think

 8     this is another subject that Mr. Fikret Abdic addressing in this letter.

 9        Q.   Just two brief explanations just to make sure we're on the same

10     page.  What is the distance between -- there is one thing that I wanted

11     to ask you, something else.  The period in time that we're considering,

12     what was the ethnic breakdown of the Bihac area and its population?

13        A.   I can't say off the top of my head.  We have the 1991 census.

14     The entire Bihac area was predominantly populated by Muslims.

15        Q.   I will not be showing you other portions of this text talking

16     about problems faced by other regions, not just the Bihac region,

17     therefore I'm just trying to walk you through this to confirm a number of

18     things for me.  We have another such document here to do with a member of

19     the Presidency who is a Muslim.  The next paragraph is very interesting:

20     Fines, compensation for damages, interest rates and expenses for court

21     proceedings can be determined only on Yugoslav dinars.  That's what

22     you've been talking about, right?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Prison sentences of more than six months cannot be carried out as

25     the district has no prison facilities that could hold such convicts.

Page 29627

 1     Moreover, the degrees entailed in these proceedings remain the same as

 2     before the war.  The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Supreme Court is

 3     still the state body in third instance, and there is no contact with it

 4     and there has not been since April 1992.

 5             These are matters to do with the judiciary, and this is precisely

 6     what we've often found ourselves caught up in discussing here in this

 7     courtroom.  Abdic says, if I understand this correctly, as follows:

 8     Confirm that for my benefit, please, that the fines incurred were still

 9     being expressed in Yugoslav dinars and there was no communication with

10     the Supreme Court, not even in April 1993; therefore, it was impossible

11     for the judicial system to operate properly.  Is that right?

12        A.   Yes, that's precisely what Mr. Fikret is saying here, he's

13     talking about a number of problems, he's talking about this problem of

14     separation, in terms of geography and in terms of distance.  Bihac is

15     about a five-hour drive away if you don't make stopovers.  Sarajevo is

16     encircled.  The state did not pass all the appropriate regulations about

17     the financial situation, currency, money, how this money was to be used

18     in practical terms, traffic fines, that sort of thing.  The BH Presidency

19     closed down two principal prisons in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Foca and

20     Zenica.  Mr. Fikret warns that convicts had nowhere to be sent to.  This

21     is a problem occurring throughout his area, Bihac, Cazin, Kladusa, and

22     other neighbouring areas.

23        Q.   These are problems, as long as I'm correct, to do with this

24     because the central authorities back in 1993 did not react in good time

25     and did not pass appropriate regulations in good time to deal in

Page 29628

 1     particular with this situation, the situation having to do with these

 2     areas that were encircled and under siege by the aggressor?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right, Bihac had been under siege for quite a long

 4     time.  At the very end of war, in 1995, it was finally liberated.  This

 5     is when I eventually travelled to Bihac.  I visited the area, and I saw

 6     for myself how good the cooperation was between the HVO and the BH army.

 7     I brought in humanitarian aid in several lorries.  It was Mr. Prlic, of

 8     all people, who had asked me to please go to that area because I was in

 9     Zagreb at the time, therefore Bihac wasn't as far away as it would have

10     been for him.  The cooperation was very good.  The people in the HVO

11     refused to receive aid that would not have been given to the BH army as

12     well because they wanted everyone to have an equal share.

13        Q.   Mr. Akmadzic, we just discussed the example of Bihac.

14     Nevertheless, these problems were occurring throughout Herzegovina,

15     throughout the Tuzla area as well, throughout the Zenica area because the

16     regulations passed by the central authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina

17     applied throughout the republic, right?

18        A.   Yes, that's right, but even districts that were set up then were

19     in fact functioning properly.  Therefore, there was a lot of discord, a

20     lot of disagreement as to how regulations were to be applied throughout

21     the area.

22        Q.   Mr. Akmadzic, Mr. Fikret Abdic eventually, and this is something

23     that we can find at page 7 of this document, this is page 6 in the

24     English, paragraph 2, paragraph 3 as well, he goes on to sum up the

25     situation as follows:  He says the situation has been remedied,

Page 29629

 1     legitimate delegates were appointed throughout the district.  I think

 2     this is a fair summary.  Do you know that back in 1993 Fikret Abdic,

 3     precisely because of all these problems with the Sarajevo

 4     government - and we've been talking about a lot about that, the

 5     government, I mean the Presidency, I mean the disagreements with the

 6     army, I mean the disagreements with Mr. Izetbegovic - is this not why

 7     Mr. Abdic eventually proclaimed the existence of an autonomous western

 8     Bosnia area in that region?

 9        A.   Yes.  Mr. Fikret Abdic never agreed with the way the state was

10     run or the way the talks were unfolding at Presidency meetings.

11     Mr. Abdic was always in favour of talks.  He wanted peace to be achieved

12     through talks.  He was fully in favour of the Vance-Owen Plan.  He

13     accepted all of the other plans as well.  I did spend a great deal of

14     time talking to him, and in Geneva we talked a lot too.  Sometimes he

15     would go to the talks in Geneva and sometimes not simply because it was

16     very difficult to leave the Bihac area.  UNPROFOR once flew in a

17     helicopter to get him out of the area and take him to Geneva.  Eventually

18     he chose the solution which he believed was the best one.  He set up a

19     provisional government in the Bihac area and eventually it got off the

20     ground and started operating quite well.

21             In fact, there is another thing that I wish to say now, now that

22     I'm talking about this, Mr. Fikret arranged for money to be sent from

23     international aid, to be sent to each and every individual that it was

24     addressed to.  For example, you have someone in Germany and they send

25     money to their brother who is still in Bihac, for example, 500 German

Page 29630

 1     mark, 1.000 German mark.  The important thing was to make sure the money

 2     would reach its addressee, and he organized ways for this to happen.

 3     Fikret Abdic was a much loved man in his area.

 4        Q.   And finally, Mr. Akmadzic, did armed clashes erupt between

 5     Fikret Abdic's men and the BH army late in 1993 precisely because of

 6     these clashing notions that they entertained and how the Republic of B&H

 7     should be run?

 8        A.   Yes, there were armed clashes that eventually erupted.  I didn't

 9     go to the area and see it myself, therefore I can't say anything about

10     that, despite which Mr. Fikret Abdic was precisely convinced that the

11     Islamic circles headed by Izetbegovic and the people around him trying to

12     frame him and even tried to kill him.  He once even went so far as to

13     tell me, I won't let them kill me.  He told me this in Geneva.

14             The armed clashes were high-intensity ones and this is one of the

15     typical features of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina and this is

16     something I haven't been mentioning so far.  I told you about definition

17     provided by the Presidency at the very outset.  Nevertheless, in Bosnia

18     and Herzegovina it is obvious that there are some elements of civil war

19     at work although the war has a whole could not be viewed as a civil war,

20     specifically I mean what happened in Bihac.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friend

22     Ms. Senka, I'm sorry, but I think there is an enormous error in the

23     transcript, page 24, line 9, there is a check there which means that the

24     transcript will be completed, but I think for the benefit of everyone's

25     understanding, the Chamber's understanding, it should be said that the

Page 29631

 1     witness talked about Islamic circles surrounding Alija Izetbegovic and

 2     Alija Izetbegovic himself.  I apologise for this interruption to my

 3     learned friend, Ms. Senka.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much to my learned

 5     friend Ms. Vesna Alaburic.  I was listening to the witness and I was not

 6     following the transcript.  Thank you very much indeed.

 7        Q.   Finally my last question.  We spoke about these clashes, this

 8     conflict among the Muslims, can you confirm for us - and this is

 9     something -- this is a question I have raised several times but let me be

10     as specific as I possibly can - did this conflict arise because of the

11     clashing notions among the Muslims on how Bosnia should be set up,

12     specifically clashes between Fikret Abdic on the one hand and

13     Alija Izetbegovic and the circles around him on the other?

14        A.   Indeed so.

15        Q.   Thank you very much, Witness, this completes my

16     cross-examination.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,

18     this completes my cross-examination.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I just have a

20     follow-up question for you.  Ms. Nozica mostly spoke about Bihac and

21     Fikret Abdic.  I listened to her questions and her -- and your answers,

22     and thought about Herzegovina.  Here's my question:  You were the prime

23     minister of the government.  In every state the government acts via

24     administrations, through decrees and laws, ensures that public order is

25     respected, makes sure that justice functions well, those are the main

Page 29632

 1     characteristics of a state.  The siege of Sarajevo started probably on

 2     the 5th of April, 1992, or let's say during that month of April.  And

 3     when there's a siege Sarajevo was encircled by Serbian forces and one

 4     might wonder how the state functioned and what was the link between the

 5     government, the municipalities, the districts, the regions, and so on and

 6     so forth.

 7             You were right in the middle of things.  Were you under the

 8     impression that the state continued to function or do you believe that

 9     there was Sarajevo, Mr. Izetbegovic, the Presidency, a few

10     administrations, but do you think that the municipalities on the outside

11     had to work on their own because they could not rely upon the help from

12     Sarajevo because I remember the last document which we saw on Bihac.

13             In a nutshell, could you tell me whether you as prime minister

14     believed that your decisions were implemented on the field or were you

15     helpless because every village, every municipality, had to --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely, Your Honour, that's

17     it.  And I'd like to add, although we don't have much time, that the

18     Presidency could not extend its power and authority all over the state

19     for the reasons that you have stated.  And secondly, I would like to say

20     that we, the Croat members of the Presidency, asked that it be relocated

21     so that it could function.  Had the Presidency gone out of Sarajevo, as

22     were the strategic military plans, that in case of war the capital should

23     be left behind and the Presidency moved to where the supreme authority

24     could function, I mentioned Livno because there were the necessary

25     prerequisites for that, that's the first point.  And the second point is

Page 29633

 1     that Fikret Abdic for those reasons and also for political reasons with

 2     respect to the political set-up of Bosnia-Herzegovina found it and

 3     proclaimed in a way the province of western Bosnia, is what he called it,

 4     because the Vance-Owen Plan envisaged a western Bosnian province.  The

 5     names -- took the names of the towns, and so this was the Bihac province.

 6     And Fikret Abdic insisted that the Vance-Owen Plan plan be put into

 7     effect as well as other plans that came about later on.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you, sir.

 9             I'm now turning to the 5D and 6D, but I understood that they gave

10     their time away.  Is that so?  5D?

11             MR. PLAVEC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions

12     for this witness and we ceded our time to the Stojic Defence.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Mr. Ibrisimovic.

15             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

16     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             So that part of the cross-examination is over.  I suggest we have

19     now a 20-minute break so that Mr. Scott can get prepared for his

20     cross-examination.  We shall then resume.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.19 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 3.45 p.m.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing's resumed.

24             Mr. Scott, the Trial Chamber wants to know clearly what you plan.

25     Do you want to use all the six hours, all of them, or less than six hours

Page 29634

 1     or don't you know right now?

 2             MR. SCOTT:  First off, good afternoon, Mr. President, Your

 3     Honours, and good afternoon to everyone and counsel, everyone in and

 4     around the courtroom.

 5             I would have to guess, Mr. President, that I will use the six

 6     hours, but of course if we make more progress than that, then so much the

 7     better.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You may proceed.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Scott:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  I'd like to start off, sir, asking a couple

11     questions about Mr. Izetbegovic, who has featured rather prominently in

12     the questioning over the past few days.  It might assist you if I tell

13     you this, it is of course not my function here to defend anyone, except

14     perhaps the victims of the alleged crimes in the case.  I'm not here to

15     defend Mr. Izetbegovic, and I will also tell you that, as the Chamber has

16     heard, everyone knows this was a horrible, terrible war in which there

17     were victims on all sides.  There were many Croat victims, and of course

18     I'm sure you know that this institution prosecutes and tries accused from

19     all ethnic groups, Serb, Croat, and Muslim.

20             In that respect, however, just so the record is clear in

21     connection with Mr. Izetbegovic and your dealings with him, I would like

22     to remind you and ask you some questions about what you said in your

23     testimony in the Kordic case, and I'm referring to page 2 -- excuse me,

24     20319 on the 5th of June, 2000, a little more than eight years ago, I'm

25     afraid.  And you said:

Page 29635

 1             "I'm very good friends with Mr. Izetbegovic.  While I was

 2     secretary-general we visited Rome together and we called on the Pope,

 3     although he's a Muslim and I'm a Catholic.  He's a Muslim of Islamic

 4     faith and I'm a Croat of Catholic faith.  Together we visited Tehran.  We

 5     knew each other well.  I even called on him at home where he lived.  He's

 6     a good man.  He's an honest politician; however, there are interests that

 7     transcend individual interest."

 8             Now, if you're able to follow along on that, sir, and if you need

 9     me to I'll read it to you again.  Do you stand by that assessment,

10     description, of your relationship and dealings with Mr. Izetbegovic?

11        A.   Yes, I do stand by them.  But I can say that perhaps I

12     overemphasized the fact that we were very good friends, perhaps I went

13     too far.  We were on very good terms.  Perhaps that would be a better way

14     of putting it.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have in front of me

16     what you said in the French version.  There may be somebody to be added

17     here:

18             "I am quite a good friend of Mr. Izetbegovic's whilst I was

19     secretary-general we went -- we were in Rome to visit the Pope.  I am a

20     Catholic and he's a Muslim."

21             And then you continue:

22             "I am of Islamic faith [as interpreted], and he is a Catholic

23     Christian [as interpreted], that is what is in the transcript."

24             Was that something you added or not?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I said, we went to

Page 29636

 1     visit the Pope together.  We visited Tehran together, but when we -- he

 2     received a private audience, a separate audience with the Pope, it's a

 3     private audience as it's called with the Pope.  And in Tehran he went

 4     without me to see their religious leader, I think it was Hamnaj [phoen],

 5     and we went to see foreign minister Vela Jacic [phoen] together, as we

 6     did to the president of the republic, Raf-sandjani; we went there to see

 7     President Raf-sandjani, and we also visited the mosques together, but I

 8     don't think that is relevant for this Court.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Scott.

11             MR. SCOTT:  All right.

12             I'm at a bit of a loss, Your Honour, because of the way something

13     was transcribed.  On page 29, line 17, what was read to the witness was,

14     I am of Islamic faith and he is a Catholic Christian.

15        Q.   Sir, what I have in the Kordic case, and perhaps there was a

16     difference between the English and the French version is that he,

17     Mr. Izetbegovic, is an Islam of Muslim faith, and I, referring to

18     yourself, I am a Catholic, is that correct, a Croat of Catholic faith?

19        A.   I am a Croat Catholic.  Mr. Izetbegovic is of the Islamic

20     religious faith, and he was very respected in the Islamic world.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please continue.

22             MR. SCOTT:

23        Q.   And in connection with your references to he's -- he was a good

24     man -- or of course at that time he was still alive.  He's a good man.

25     He's an honest politician, accepting for the moment that of course you

Page 29637

 1     may have had strong political disagreements with him, again do you stand

 2     by your assessment that he was fundamentally an honest and good man?

 3        A.   His attitude to me and in his attitude as I was able to see to

 4     others, he was an honest man, but he was bad in politics and that's what

 5     proved to be the case.

 6        Q.   Well, he may or may not have been a good politician, we can agree

 7     with that.  You described him in the Kordic testimony, of course, and as

 8     you confirmed a few moments ago as an honest politician.

 9             With that in mind, let's turn to this topic once again of the

10     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And when did you first become the

11     general secretary of that body, because as I understand it you had

12     already took that position or held that position prior to the time

13     following the elections in November 1990 that Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Boras,

14     and others took their positions.  So when did you first become the

15     general secretary of the -- of that body?

16        A.   I see what you wish to hear.  When Mr. Izetbegovic came to the

17     Presidency and the other members of the Presidency as well, of course, I

18     was an advisor in the presidential offices of the president; and in his

19     cabinet or offices before Izetbegovic the president was Obrad Piljak from

20     amongst the Serb people.

21        Q.   All right.  And approximately when, sir, my question, my real

22     question, was simply to put some more time on some of these points, when

23     had you first taken up that position which maybe was described

24     differently at the time, but was or came to be known as general secretary

25     of the Presidency, of that body?

Page 29638

 1        A.   The posts were named the same.  We didn't change anything with

 2     the arrival of the new Presidency.  An advisor was one position.  I was

 3     the advisor for press and information, whereas the general secretary of

 4     the Presidency was a position for the entire Presidency, and the general

 5     secretary led the entire Presidency apart from the political side of

 6     course and I was appointed general secretary - I can't give you the exact

 7     date - but I think that it was at the beginning of February 1991.

 8        Q.   And when did you -- when had you first come into the other

 9     position that you just described, as an advisor of some sort at the

10     presidential level, if I can describe it that way?  When did you take on

11     that responsibility or function?

12        A.   I took over that function on the 1st of June, 1990.

13        Q.   And at some point during that time were you ever an advisor to

14     Mr. Izetbegovic in his individual capacity, and by that I don't mean

15     privately.  But apart from serving the Presidency as a collective body,

16     did you ever consider yourself to be any sort of advisor or staff person

17     to Mr. Izetbegovic?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Now, as a result of the 18 November 1990 elections, there was a

20     seven-member Presidency and just so we can quickly run through them

21     again, the two Croat representatives on the Presidency were Mr. Boras and

22     Stjepan Kljuic; the Serb representatives or members were Biljana Plavsic

23     and Nikola Koljevic; the two Muslims were Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Abdic

24     that you spoke about a few minutes ago; and the other, the category that

25     the legislation provided for as other was Mr. Ganic.  Is that correct?

Page 29639

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2        Q.   And that body, that -- as so composed, the Presidency functioned

 3     in that way or, again, as so composed until approximately March or April

 4     of 1992.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And just so we can begin to hopefully clarify and confirm at

 7     least bits of what we can and see what disputes may or may not be left.

 8     So there's no question that up until that point in time, March 1992, the

 9     Presidency was legal and legitimate in the way that we've been discussing

10     it this week; correct?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   And then as a result of the increasing and then open conflict

13     with the Serbs, in early April 1992 the two Serb members, Ms. Plavsic and

14     Mr. Koljevic withdrew from the Presidency, and around that time, on about

15     the 8th of April, 1991 -- excuse me, 1992, something called -- some

16     people refer to as the War Presidency or perhaps an expanded Presidency

17     was established; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, before we talk about the expansion of the Presidency, let's

20     also go back and take it step by step in terms of this office called the

21     president of the Presidency.  So in December -- in approximately December

22     1990 Mr. Izetbegovic was elected by the other members of the Presidency

23     as president of the Presidency, and again I assume from everything I've

24     heard in the last week or so that there's no dispute about that?

25        A.   No dispute about that in the Presidency.

Page 29640

 1        Q.   And as I understood something you said, I believe it was

 2     yesterday if I recall, one of the last couple of days, is that the

 3     function of the -- the selection or naming of the president was not done

 4     as a result of a popular vote, it didn't come from the electorate as a

 5     whole and it was not something governed by the constitution, but it was

 6     governed by the rules of procedure of the Presidency; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.  We called it the rules of procedure of the

 8     Presidency.

 9        Q.   All right.  And how were those rules established, by the way?

10     Who adopted those rules of procedure?

11        A.   On the basis of the previous rules of procedure that had existed

12     for the previous Presidency and on the basis of the constitution that we

13     were all well aware of, the professional services tabled a proposal for

14     the rules of procedure for the Presidency, and then at its first meeting

15     the Presidency adopted the rules of procedure for the Presidency, and

16     I've already spoken about that.

17             MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, do we need to take any sort of -- we

18     have a mechanic problem here behind the Bench.

19             Thank you, Judge.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We may proceed, I think.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That was off the record.

22             MR. SCOTT:  We'd all like to have a still photo of that from the

23     video, please.

24        Q.   I apologise, Mr. Akmadzic.  All right.  So we're talking about

25     the rules of procedure, and if the rules of procedure were to be adopted

Page 29641

 1     or amended from time to time, I take it they would come before the

 2     Presidency and the Presidency would vote on whether to adopt new or

 3     amended rules of procedure?

 4        A.   Precisely.

 5        Q.   And pursuant to those procedures then, around the 20th of

 6     December, 1991, after Mr. Izetbegovic had completed his first term, he

 7     was elected by a vote of the Presidency to a second term, which then

 8     would have run approximately from about the 20th of December, 1991, to 20

 9     December 1992, and that vote and that process was also legal and

10     legitimate; correct?

11        A.   That's right, and I've already described that.

12        Q.   All right.  Although I do understand that by that time, perhaps

13     because of the growing conflict or tension, the Serb members of the

14     Presidency as of December 1991, Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic, voted

15     against Mr. Izetbegovic, so it was not a unanimous vote but a majority

16     decision; correct?

17        A.   And Mr. Fikret Abdic voted against, so there were three votes

18     against.

19        Q.   So if there were seven -- if my very basic math -- arithmetic is

20     correct, there were four votes for, assuming if Mr. Izetbegovic himself

21     voted, and three votes against.  Is that correct?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   No?

24        A.   Or, rather, yes, yes, that's right, four were in favour yes.

25     Four votes.

Page 29642

 1        Q.   Now, moving forward from that we talked already about Ms. Plavsic

 2     and Koljevic resigning, their resignations were accepted or acknowledged

 3     in the minutes of the meeting on the 9th of April, 1993.  And you may

 4     recall, I don't know that we need to look at the minutes again, but the

 5     Chamber has again recently, with another witness whose name I will not

 6     mention, look at the minutes of a meeting held in early April 1993,

 7     including on the 8th or 9th, if the courtroom thinks at some point that

 8     we should look at those, of course we can.  But you were in attendance at

 9     those meetings.  You recall that?

10        A.   I don't know what you have in mind specifically, but I did attend

11     the meeting, certainly.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, I have nothing really specific in mind, except

13     that according to the minutes of those meetings, which the Chamber has

14     seen before, one set of minutes for the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th of April

15     being P 10484, in which you were listed as being present and Exhibit P

16     10485, which is the -- are the minutes for the 9th of April in which you

17     were also present?

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Scott, in the service of equality of arms,

19     would you be so kind as to indicate the number of the binder we have to

20     open?

21             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, I will.

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

23             MR. SCOTT:  It should be in binder number 3, I believe.  And I

24     said, I was really not intending to get into those, but just to tell me

25     the witness what I'm referring to.  But if it helps, if it helps, we can

Page 29643

 1     do that.

 2        Q.   Sir, if you will look at first of all then at 10484.  As I said a

 3     moment ago, these are the minutes for sessions on the 4th, 5th, 6th, and

 4     8th of April, 1992, and if you'll look on the first page roughly around

 5     the middle of the page -- I'm sorry, you're still -- 10484.  Perhaps the

 6     usher can assist.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You'll see that you are listed above the -- a little above the

 9     middle of the page as being present.  Do you see that, sir?  I'm sorry,

10     apparently not.  Do you see the record, sir, indicating your presence at

11     those meetings as reflected in the minutes?

12        A.   Was that the meeting of the 9th of April?

13        Q.   Sir, if you look at P 10484, these are the minutes for the 4th,

14     5th, 6th, and 8th of April, 1992 --

15        A.   Yes, I have that in front of me.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And if you look at the very -- what I hope would be

17     the next exhibit, 10485, I believe that you will see that that is the

18     record -- those are the minutes of the meeting on the 9th of April, 1992,

19     and if the record is correct indicates that you also attended that

20     meeting.  Is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  Now, at those meetings you will

23     recall I believe on the 8th of April, 1992, an expanded Presidency given

24     the imminent threat or existence of a condition of war that was declared

25     on that day, which is reflected in the minutes and also in a decree.  On

Page 29644

 1     that day an expanded Presidency was established which, is it

 2     correct - this is my question to you - in addition to the seven persons

 3     that we've identified so far by position, I'm saying by position not by

 4     the names of the person holding those positions, but included the

 5     president of the government or prime minister, the president of the

 6     National Assembly or some might say parliament, and the Chief of the

 7     Supreme Command Staff or essentially the senior military professional,

 8     the senior commander of the armed forces of the state of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina, those three additional persons were added to the seven

10     members to make up the expanded Presidency; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And again - and I'm just going to again take this step by

13     step - that was all legal and legitimate; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, if we look at -- what I've done hopefully to save some time

16     and to be as clear as possible if I can find it, if you can turn to --

17     sorry - that has been marked as P 0 --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, because you're

19     moving onto another document.

20             MR. SCOTT:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to remain with this

22     document for a few seconds, which is the minutes of the meetings on the

23     4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th of April, the latter date being important

24     because that's the day when the imminent threat of war was proclaimed.

25             Witness, I was about to say Mr. Secretary-General at the time

Page 29645

 1     because you were there, you're here to authenticate the minutes, I

 2     discover that, in fact, there was a recording, an audio recording of the

 3     discussions that took place over the four days.  That's the last sentence

 4     in the text.  In fact, what we have here is a synopsis, a summary, of the

 5     decisions that were taken.

 6             Looking at the B/C/S document, because here we were working on

 7     the -- with the English text, but I looked at the B/C/S version, and

 8     curiously enough I failed to see your signature, it is missing.  Well,

 9     normally speaking we all in this courtroom in our previous lives have had

10     to draft minutes of meetings, among other things.  So normally when

11     there's a meeting there's at least one person, if not two, signing the

12     minutes of the meeting.  So normally you should have signed it, you

13     should have signed the minutes of the decisions that were made; but we

14     fail to see your signature in the B/C/S text.  Can you tell me why?

15     Because the document should have been signed by the secretary-general and

16     by the president of the Presidency, but we see no signature at all.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the departure of two Serbian

18     members of the Presidency, a number of Serb workers or people who worked

19     in the Presidency left too, so it was difficult to organize the work, all

20     the technical work, that had to be done, recordings, typing, adoption of

21     the minutes, things like that.  The minutes were usually signed after

22     adoption at the next Presidency meeting, and obviously in that time of

23     war, because there wasn't enough electricity and because the conditions

24     under which the Presidency worked in general were made more difficult,

25     matters like that were difficult.  And that's why these particular

Page 29646

 1     minutes were not signed on time.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard your answer, but

 3     this is the 65th Session which was held on the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th of

 4     April, and then we have the 66th Session, which was held on the 9th of

 5     April at noon.  You were there as well.  Looking at the agenda I see that

 6     no mention is made of that previous -- those previous minutes, no

 7     approval is mentioned, but I might be mistaken.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the reason for

 9     this.  I don't think the minutes were produced at the time, and that's

10     why it couldn't be tendered for adoption.  This is something that was

11     bound to happen again because we had reached an agreement at a Presidency

12     meeting that if no minutes could be taken, we should at least try to

13     tape-record the proceedings as frequently as possible.  Should those

14     prove impossible to transcribe, they should just be filed away.  As soon

15     as the right conditions were in place, we said all the minutes and all

16     the transcripts would eventually get written up.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             You may proceed, Mr. Scott.

19             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Sir, let me go back for a moment.  I was going to direct you to

21     another exhibit but we'll come to that momentarily.  But in connection

22     with the expanded Presidency which we were talking about a moment or two

23     ago, is it also correct, sir, that the constitution also provided that

24     one of the characteristics or functions or features, if you will, of this

25     expanded Presidency was that it had expanded powers?  For example, it

Page 29647

 1     could carry out what might be described as both executive and legislative

 2     powers or functions.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.  And it may be worth just momentarily pausing on

 5     Exhibit P 00150, and that should be in the first binder.  This is a

 6     compilation of three decrees, the first one -- one on the first page, I

 7     think you will see this is the decree by which the name of the state of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina was changed, deleting the word "socialist" from the

 9     name of the state.  The second is a decree or regulation on abolishing or

10     doing away with the Territorial Defence organization that had existed

11     until the former Yugoslavia as part of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia

12     and Herzegovina, and to replace that with the new Territorial Defence

13     being the proclaimed armed forces of the state of the -- the new state of

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And then if you'll see on the third decision

15     being the proclamation of an immediate threat of war which in Article 2

16     again indicates the membership of the Presidency being expanded to

17     include the positions that I had mentioned to you a few minutes ago.

18             All of that is correct, yes?

19        A.   I can't actually see this, but I know that what you're suggesting

20     is correct.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, I'm sorry if you can't, but thank you for that.

22     I don't think there will be any question about that; if there is, I'm

23     sure I'll be corrected.

24             Now, if I could ask you to go to P 10495, and that will be in the

25     third binder, it should be the -- yes.  It may be helpful to have that --

Page 29648

 1     yes, you have that both in English and there is a Croatian version for

 2     the witness and for others.

 3             So that we can be as specific as possible and hopefully move as

 4     efficiently as possible, I put this information in front of you.  Now,

 5     based on your testimony so far, I think we can agree, I hope, that as to

 6     the time-period on the first -- the first time-period, December 1990 to

 7     the 8th of April, 1992, that information appears to be consistent with

 8     your evidence this afternoon and there's no dispute about that.

 9             Now, if we can then focus on the time-period from the 9th of

10     April to approximately - I say approximately - the 20th of December,

11     1992, under the expanded or so-called War Presidency.  This would

12     indicate that in addition to the seven members above, and of course

13     Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic have left by this time, Mr. Hasan Efendic

14     was named -- not named but became a member of the expanded Presidency by

15     function of his position as head of the armed forces; Mr. Jure Pelivan,

16     who had I think by this time assumed the role of prime minister in the

17     place of one of the Serbs who had left because I believe Mr. Krajisnik,

18     Momcilo Krajisnik, had ceased being the speaker or president of the

19     Assembly and Mr. Pelivan had taken his place -- excuse me, my mistake.

20     Strike that --

21        A.   Yes, I think you made a mistake.

22        Q.   I did, you're absolutely right.

23             Mr. Pelivan was prime minister, then it was Mr. Krajisnik who had

24     left as president of the parliament or Assembly, and he had been replaced

25     by the Croat, Mr. Ljubic.  Is that correct?

Page 29649

 1        A.   Yes.  He was the vice-president of the Assembly or the vice

 2     chairman of the Assembly at the time that Mr. Krajisnik was present.

 3        Q.   So it was logical when Mr. Krajisnik left, Mr. Ljubic as the

 4     deputy took that position.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So at that point in time -- and I've listed you here because you

 7     were certainly an important feature, I won't say member, but an important

 8     participant in those meetings.  So I've just put your name here so we

 9     don't forget about you, as I'm sure we wouldn't.  But everyone above that

10     point at that moment as approximately the 9th of April, that was the

11     existing expanded Presidency.  Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, aside from me.

13        Q.   All right.  And then I just note and so that there's no confusion

14     about the diagram or chart, whatever one wants to call it, I've indicated

15     that Mr. Sefer Halilovic actually replaced Mr. Efendic quite quickly,

16     just a few weeks later, and so -- but again filled the position of head

17     of the armed forces.  And that's correct, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   All right.  And then below your name, some weeks later I believe,

20     is it correct, do you recall that it was in approximately early June of

21     1992 that new Serb members were named to the Presidency to replace

22     Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic, and there was Mirko Pejanovic and

23     Nenad Kecmanovic?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   All right.  And again, my understanding - and correct me if I'm

Page 29650

 1     wrong, please - they were named on the basis that in terms of the

 2     election in November of 1990 they had been the Serb members, the members

 3     of the representatives of the Serb political party, who had received the

 4     next-most votes and therefore were in line, if you will, to fill these

 5     positions.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   This is debatable, because they belonged to parties that had lost

 7     the elections.

 8        Q.   All right.  Do you know how it was that those two particular

 9     Serbs became elected or placed on the Presidency at that time?

10        A.   The principle was the one that you explained in terms of the

11     votes garnered, they came second, but it was because of the parties and

12     that's why I called it debatable.

13        Q.   All right.  Very well.  And then just to -- they're not members

14     of the -- well, one was, Mr. Efendic and then subsequently Mr. Halilovic,

15     but again just to have these positions on the paper, so to speak, the

16     three senior military commanders at this time - and this is also

17     reflected in the minutes of the meetings that we looked at a few minutes

18     ago, if we need to look at them again - you had Mr. Efendic, quickly

19     followed by Mr. Halilovic as the head of the armed forces, Mr. Siber, a

20     Croat as the number two, if you will, and Mr. Jovan Divjak, a Serb as the

21     operations officer.  And those three persons representing the three

22     senior officers of the -- Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, I'm going to ask you a similar question that I asked you

Page 29651

 1     about the top of the page.  As its described here, did that Presidency

 2     continue to function from approximately the 9th of April, then, of 1992

 3     until the end of that year, approximately on the 20th of December, 1992?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6        A.   There were other changes.

 7        Q.   And what were those other changes, please?

 8        A.   Mr. Kecmanovic left the Presidency, roughly speaking, because of

 9     the same reasons as Mr. Koljevic and Ms. Plavsic.  I don't think he

10     formally resigned.  He just took off and he went to Belgrade -- or at

11     least that's as much as we could learn at the time.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  And apart from then the

13     departure of Mr. Kecmanovic, at least physically, any other changes to

14     the composition of that group during that time-period?

15        A.   I don't think there were any or at least none that I can spot

16     right now.

17        Q.   All right.  And then can we agree then, sir, that the -- with an

18     asterisk, if you will, by Mr. Kecmanovic's name, that that Presidency,

19     that expanded Presidency, as represented here, that continued to be again

20     a legal and legitimate Presidency until the end of December 1992?

21        A.   As I've pointed out for the benefit of the Chamber a couple of

22     times, I'm not a lawyer.  The constitution does not provide for

23     Presidency members leaving.  They may resign.  The constitution provides

24     nothing for how new members of the Presidency should be elected in this

25     way.  Therefore, I cannot really claim that this Presidency is a legal

Page 29652

 1     and legitimate one nor, indeed, can I deny that.  It operated this way.

 2     If you want my opinion, I don't think it was entirely legitimate.

 3        Q.   And why not?  And let me just jump in here, sir, and say for the

 4     past several days you've been quite free, and I'm not questioning you in

 5     having done so, to express your views as a senior government officials,

 6     as someone who was ultimately the prime minister of this country.  So

 7     putting aside any technical legalese we might call it, please assist the

 8     Judges as much as you can with your personal knowledge of the workings

 9     and the status of these arrangements.  Now, having said that, you've just

10     said that this is an accurate, factual, description I believe if I can

11     put it that way of the state of affairs, but you said a moment ago there

12     might be some question in your mind.  Can you please tell the Judges very

13     specifically any question that occurs to you about the legitimacy of this

14     Presidency as so composed.

15        A.   We're talking from the 20th of December, 1992, to October 1993.

16     Is that the period of time we're talking about?

17        Q.   No, I'm sorry, sir.  Perhaps I've misspoken or misdirected you.

18     If I did, I apologise.  I'm talking about roughly the middle of the page

19     during the time-period the 9th of April until approximately the 20th of

20     December, 1992.  Can we agree that for that period of time the persons

21     that are then listed in the middle of that page, with the additional

22     information that Mr. Kecmanovic did apparently depart for Belgrade at

23     some point, that that Presidency as composed was a legal and legitimate

24     one until approximately the 20th of December, 1992?

25        A.   Yes, I agree, with the one reservation that I specified.  I'm not

Page 29653

 1     an expert in matter of law, and I can't confirm the legitimacy of these

 2     Serb Presidency members.  For this reason, the Serbs who won the

 3     elections themselves questioned their legitimacy.  I'm no lawyer myself

 4     and I'm not going into this.  They left the Presidency of their own

 5     accord.  These other men were then appointed, but it was the Serbs

 6     themselves who challenged or questioned the legitimacy of these two

 7     Presidency members.

 8        Q.   And I don't want to take, as you've come to know in the last few

 9     days, time is a precious commodity in the courtroom, and I don't want to

10     spend a lot of time talking about the Serbs, but by this time, by the

11     spring of 1992, there is open conflict with the Serbs so there were some

12     Serbs saying there shouldn't be any Serbs serving in this body; correct?

13        A.   I think what I said is correct.  The Serbs did not interfere too

14     much except for this one thing.  They questioned this particular thing.

15     Back in 1992 we didn't spend that much time talking about this, they were

16     Presidency members and they were seen as being on an equal footing with

17     all the other Presidency members.

18        Q.   All right.  Very well.  I think everyone at this point knows what

19     the state of affairs were in Bosnia by that point in time.

20             Now if we can go to the bottom of the page so to speak for the

21     period of 20 December 1992 to 1993, and I'm going to put aside for the

22     moment - and I assure you we're going to come to it momentarily, so I

23     assure you that - come to Mr. Izetbegovic in his role as president.  If

24     you can bracket that for a moment and look down the page, are these

25     the -- was that the composition of members of the Presidency during that

Page 29654

 1     time-period?  And if I can focus your attention, is it correct that at

 2     some time during that period, Mr. Halilovic was replaced by Mr. Delic as

 3     head of the armed forces, Mirko Pejanovic continued as a Serb rep member,

 4     if you will.  Mr. Miro Lasic came on in the place of Mr. Kljuic as a

 5     Croat member.  Mr. Kecmanovic was replaced by Tatjana Ljujic-Mijatovic as

 6     a Serb person.

 7             And by that time the person filling the position or at least

 8     taking the position of president of the Assembly in the place of

 9     Mr. Ljubic was Mr. Lazovic, a Serb, is that correct?

10        A.   What you've been saying is correct.  Nevertheless, I would like

11     to comments if I may.

12        Q.   Please.

13        A.   As to Mr. Izetbegovic, we said we'd come to that later on.

14     Mr. Fikret Abdic, a legal member; Mr. Sefer Halilovic or Rasim Delic,

15     given the fact that they were members of the BH army, there had to be

16     along with them someone from the HVO in order to have member number 11

17     along this same principle, because the armed forces of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina comprised two segments.  In that case Sefer Halilovic or

19     Delic would have been legitimate, with the proviso, however, that

20     Mr. Turkovic had to be there too.  Ejup Ganic legitimate, Franjo Boras

21     legitimate, Miro Lasic legitimate because Stjepan Kljuic had just

22     resigned.  Mile Akmadzic is a member because he is also prime minister.

23     Mirko Pejanovic, Tatjana Ljujic, we said what we said about those.  Miro

24     Lazovic was appointed assembly chairman.  The Assembly was not operating,

25     the Presidency was.  Therefore, I wouldn't question his legitimacy.

Page 29655

 1     Ethnically speaking, Mariofil Ljubic was a Croat, and we had to take into

 2     account the ethnic balance in these three state institutions, the

 3     Assembly, the Presidency, and the government.

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   Therefore, this is legitimate with the reservation that I voiced.

 6        Q.   The reservation, and just so the record is very clear and those

 7     are two topics that we will be talking about, but the reservations being

 8     whether Mr. Izetbegovic continuing as president in the third term and

 9     whether -- question whether in your view there should have been HVO

10     representative in terms of the armed forces.  Those are your two

11     reservations, is that correct?

12             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, I don't think we need assistance from the

13     accused in answering the questions.

14        Q.   Is that correct, sir?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All right.  Now in terms of the -- excuse me, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] While we're still talking about

18     this document, I have two questions in mind, Witness, maybe you can shed

19     some light on the matter.  Mr. Ganic in December -- December 1992 up to

20     8th of April, 1992, he's there as a Yugoslav, so to speak.  And we can

21     see between brackets Muslim religion, but I'll come back to that later.

22             In April 1992 he's mentioned as a Yugoslav; however, I'm under

23     the impression that Yugoslavia ceased to exist in May 1992, since Croatia

24     and Bosnia and Herzegovina were then recognised by the United Nations and

25     by some states.  So a member of a legal entity called Yugoslavia is still

Page 29656

 1     present there.  How come?  How -- why didn't he withdraw from the

 2     Presidency?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think his legitimacy should not

 4     be questioned.  Constitution and the electoral law defines this category

 5     as others.  These others at the time of the 1990 elections meant that

 6     Yugoslavia was still around and the multi-national segment was as well.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understand things better now.

 8     How come his faith is mentioned, because we're under the impression that

 9     there is a religious component?  How come we find between brackets Muslim

10     religion?  Do you have an explanation for that?

11             MR. SCOTT:  Sorry, Your Honour, I have to take credit for that,

12     our responsibility, because I did not want, to be perfectly honest - and

13     I'm glad you raised it because I meant to - I did not want there to

14     someone, anyone in the courtroom, to think that the Prosecution or anyone

15     was hiding the ball that someone might say he was other, but in fact he

16     was Muslim.  He was a person of Muslim religion.  I don't think -- I hope

17     there's no dispute about that.  We used -- perhaps it would have been

18     less questionable to use the word other instead of Yugoslav.  My

19     understanding, and again people will I'm sure correct me if I am wrong,

20     the constitution for these purposes may have described this position as

21     other, whereas I understand that Mr. Ganic when he described himself for

22     purposes of the census called himself a Yugoslav.  But -- and I think

23     it's a question of labels, Your Honour.  We can see other Yugoslav.  In

24     terms of the Muslim religion, I wanted to make it very clear that we

25     weren't saying -- the Prosecution wasn't asserting anything to the

Page 29657

 1     contrary.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. SCOTT:

 5        Q.   Now, just to pick up on a few things, Mr. Akmadzic.  Mr. Pelivan

 6     was mentioned in the second box, if you will, call it that, at this point

 7     as prime minister.  And I notice that in the minutes which are Exhibit P

 8     10484, these are the minutes for the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th of 1992, and

 9     again that will be in the third binder if we can just go back with that

10     for a moment or if you recall, perhaps you don't have to look at the

11     exhibit --

12        A.   I would actually prefer to consult documents only when I'm not

13     entirely certain that I can answer a question without them.

14        Q.   Very well.  Thank you, sir.  I appreciate that.  My question to

15     you then, and you may or may not need to refer to the document and I

16     point it to you for your convenience or to assist you, is that on the

17     7th, I believe, of April -- excuse me, the 6th -- excuse me one moment.

18     Yes, on the 6th of April on page 3 of the minutes -- but in any event

19     Mr. Pelivan tendered his resignation as prime minister but his

20     resignation was rejected.

21             Do you recall that and why do you -- can you assist us in telling

22     us, first of all, why Mr. Pelivan, if you know, tendered his resignation

23     and also why it was not accepted.

24        A.   Mr. Pelivan tendered his resignation because of the difficulties

25     he was experiencing in his work, the impossibility of implementing the

Page 29658

 1     programme adopted by the government, that was his personal thing.  The

 2     Presidency did not accept it for a time because the Presidency decided to

 3     look into the matter and decide after that.

 4        Q.   All right.  And do you recall when later in 1992 I believe it

 5     was, if you can assist us, approximately when was his resignation -- or

 6     was, in fact, accepted or became effected?

 7        A.   Well, I'll tell you without looking at the paper, it was accepted

 8     a little before I was appointed.  So if I was appointed on the 10th of

 9     November, then that means his resignation was accepted sometime in

10     October or that general period of time, and I don't assume you need the

11     exact date.

12        Q.   No, that's fine.  Thank you very much, sir.

13             Now, in terms of the work of the Presidency, if we can just

14     talk -- if I can just ask you a couple more questions about that.  You

15     said a few moments ago, you confirmed that the expanded Presidency had

16     the -- had the ability to exercise what would be called both executive

17     and legislative powers.  And in terms of legislation, if we can call it

18     that, it could pass or adopt decrees that have the force of law across

19     the whole territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina within its internationally

20     recognised borders.  Is that correct?

21        A.   That is correct if those decrees were in conformity with the

22     constitution, because the Presidency could not change the constitution

23     just as the Assembly can't.

24        Q.   Very well.  All right.  Let's move to Mr. Lasic again for a

25     moment, because we saw him and you assisted us in indicating he had come

Page 29659

 1     on or you confirmed, excuse me, that he replaced Mr. Kljuic who around

 2     that time had resigned.  And can you tell us --

 3        A.   I have to correct something, it was Lazovic, not Lasic, Lazovic

 4     is the name.

 5        Q.   Maybe I misspoke, if I did I apologise.  I'm talking about

 6     Miro Lasic, the Croat who came on in place of Mr. Kljuic?

 7        A.   But he wasn't president of the Assembly.

 8        Q.   That's correct.  Sorry if I misspoke.  But I'm referring now to

 9     Mr. Miro Lasic and do you know by what process he had been selected to

10     come on the Presidency at that time?

11        A.   Mr. Kljuic tendered his resignation, that was his own personal

12     affair.  Now, for the election of Mr. Lasic, the Presidency changed

13     parts, as far as I remember, I don't remember which parts of the

14     electoral law, so as to enable him to be a legal member of the

15     Presidency.

16        Q.   So if I understand your answer correctly, the members of the --

17     the existing members of the Presidency themselves amended the election

18     laws or procedures so that, in fact, Mr. Lasic could be placed in that

19     position; correct?

20        A.   Precisely.  The Presidency ...

21        Q.   And can you tell us where Mr. Lasic -- what he had been doing in

22     terms of -- if you know, his work and where he lived prior to being

23     placed on the Presidency around the end of 1992?

24        A.   Mr. Lasic was a cultural worker.  I think he headed a cultural

25     institution in Sarajevo, and afterwards at the elections in 1990, he was

Page 29660

 1     not elected directly, there weren't direct elections, but he was elected

 2     member of the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4        A.   Let me add that the Assembly appointed him.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, Mr. Lasic, was he known -- did you know him --

 6     had you known him before he came on the Presidency?

 7        A.   I knew him because he headed the cadres or personnel commission

 8     in the government, and in the Presidency I, myself, was the general

 9     secretary in the personnel commission and we cooperated along those

10     lines.

11        Q.   Do you recall Mr. Lasic as being a person who was particularly

12     loyal to President Tudjman of Croatia, in fact there were indications he

13     would do or say whatever President Tudjman wanted him to do?  Do you

14     recall that?

15        A.   I can't really say.  I don't think so, but I think he had

16     personal contacts with Tudjman, and he was on better terms with Tudjman

17     than I was but that that wasn't the result of politics but the result of

18     their personal relationship.  Just as I was on better terms with

19     Izetbegovic than he was, for example.

20        Q.   All right.  Do you recall, sir, testifying in the Kordic case in

21     reference to Mr. Lasic when you were asked on that occasion and it was

22     put to you that:

23             "And you accept that he," being a reference to Mr. Lasic, "he

24     would have agreed to do anything which President Tudjman told him to do

25     basically?

Page 29661

 1             "A.  I don't know whether he said that, but I imagine that if he

 2     said that that I could say that that's the way it was."

 3             And I refer to your testimony in Kordic on page 20464-65, on the

 4     6th of June, 2000, and would you stand by that?

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise to my colleague and to

 6     Your Honours, but I'd just like to raise a technical matter to see if

 7     this is all right.  The transcript was in private session and the

 8     witness's testimony was in private session as well, so I don't know

 9     technically speaking whether parts of the transcript can be quoted in

10     open session because the transcript is still under seal.  So perhaps we

11     could clear that up if the Prosecutor wishes to continue quoting parts of

12     the transcript.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in the Kordic case you

14     enjoyed protective measures.  I put the question to you at the very

15     beginning of your hearing, and you explained why you'd asked for them

16     then.  You said that you could testify in open session in this case.

17     Ms. Nozica understood the problem and therefore raised the issue, which

18     is a very good question indeed, and you have to provide the answer to it.

19     What would you say?  It was in closed session because I asked for it, but

20     now there's no problem if everything I said in the Kordic case is now

21     public.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the very outset of

23     my testimony - and I'm very grateful to you for telling me that I am

24     testifying to the Tribunal, that I will be of assistance to this

25     Court - so I make no impediment or obstacles to these proceedings being

Page 29662

 1     in open session.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall ask my fellow Judges.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We believe we understood your

 5     answer, but our question was very accurate.  This relates to your

 6     testimony in the Kordic case, not to this testimony, because now you're

 7     testifying in open session, there's no problem about it.  This is in

 8     relation to what you said when you testified in the Kordic case.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree that my testimony should be

10     public, but then I would like to ask Your Honours that on my part there

11     is no further embargo, that is to say that I can speak openly and

12     publicly about my testimony in Kordic.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, there's no embargo at all

14     because everything is public and open, no impediment at all.  It's just

15     that the question arises from the following situation.  When you

16     testified in the Kordic case you did so in closed session.  You were

17     given a pseudonym, and it was in closed session, and anything that was

18     said during the Kordic case is supposed to be unknown to the public

19     opinion, nobody is aware of it.

20             You now testify in open session and the Prosecutor would like to

21     use questions that were put to you in the Kordic case; therefore, the

22     question arises whether what was under seal then can be lifted because

23     you are the only person concerned.  When it comes to protective measures,

24     Judges can intervene when they believe that they have to protect

25     somebody, but most of the time it is upon the initiative of the witness

Page 29663

 1     in question.

 2             So in a nutshell, would you agree to the fact that everything

 3     that was said in the Kordic case would become public and would you allow

 4     the Prosecutor to put questions to you that relate to the Kordic case, as

 5     Mr. Karnavas could do if he so wished during re-direct?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing against the

 7     Prosecutor asking me questions, but I said, Your Honours, that in that

 8     case I can speak publicly about the Kordic case and the statements I made

 9     and testimony I made when I was a witness in the Kordic trial.  So we can

10     lift completely the ...

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Our Trial Chamber has

12     jurisdiction because the Kordic case is completed, is over, so this

13     Trial Chamber is empowered to change the protective measures decided upon

14     by another Trial Chamber.  It would have been more complicated if the

15     Kordic case was sosu budise [phoen], but this is not the case, we're

16     fully competent, and we can decide that everything you said in the Kordic

17     case can now become public.  That's the reason why I put the question to

18     you.  So all problems are solved.  Very well.

19             Mr. Scott, you look in agreement, everyone is in agreement.

20             Mr. Karnavas must be in agreement too.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  I am totally in agreement.  I would just ask that

22     until the future if references are made to the transcript that we have a

23     page number, page and line, so we can look it up.  I do have the

24     transcript here, but I agree I think it should be public.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But, I believe that Mr. Scott

Page 29664

 1     gave the page number, but he can give it again.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  I will give it again, but let me just say to the

 3     Chamber that fortunately I -- my understanding was correct, but I would

 4     have certainly regretted that I misunderstood the situation, that it was

 5     my understanding and I had gone forward on the basis of the earlier

 6     discussion with the witness on Monday had clarified that question.  But I

 7     can understand why it's helpful and fully appropriate to clarify it

 8     further, and I regret that if I caused any confusion on that.

 9             I've been referring --

10        Q.   Sir, I was just referring a few moments ago, and also I'll refer

11     for the assistance of counsel again to the page in the Kordic transcript

12     being page 20464 carrying over to page 65.  And the question, and I know,

13     sir, it's been some moments ago now.  Your answer to the question

14     about -- well, let me restate it.

15             The question put to you on that occasion was:

16             "And you accept that he," being a reference to Mr. Lasic, "would

17     have agreed to do anything which President Tudjman told him today

18     basically?

19             "A.  I don't know whether he said that, but I imagine if he said

20     that, that I could say that that's the way it was."

21             Is that correct?

22        A.   I have to interpret my words here, give an explanation.  If

23     Mr. Miro Lasic said, I would do everything that Mr. Tudjman tells me,

24     then that is his personal position which I don't wish to comment upon and

25     make a value judgement, except to say that if he said it, that's up to

Page 29665

 1     him, it's his personal affair.  I cannot testify as to whether he would

 2     do that or would not.  Those were his words.

 3        Q.   Well, let me just -- all right.  Well, let me just stay on your

 4     previous testimony a bit longer.  I think you went a bit further than

 5     that in the Kordic case, sir, and you accepted that if that's in fact

 6     what he said that would in fact be consistent with your knowledge of the

 7     man, that if he said that, I could say that that's the way it was, in

 8     fact.  Is that correct?

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  Excuse me.  Where is the transcript?  Point to the

10     transcript so the gentleman can see.  If he's trying to impeach the

11     gentleman, he should be given an opportunity to look at what he said in

12     Kordic --

13             MR. SCOTT:  I will read it again, perhaps the translators can

14     assist us.  I don't have it in B/C/S, Your Honours.  We don't get the

15     transcripts in B/C/S -- that's fine.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At least for the part in

17     English you could read it.

18             MR. SCOTT:  I will be happy --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's very short, isn't it?

20             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour, I've read it at least twice, but

21     I'll read it a third time.

22        Q.   Sir, the question was put to you -- counsel for the third or

23     fourth time --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [No interpretation]

25             MR. SCOTT:  Page 20464 to 65.

Page 29666

 1        Q.   You said -- the answer was -- the question was put to you, excuse

 2     me, and again you described him -- you described him at the time as he

 3     was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was then

 4     followed with the next question:

 5             "Q.  And you accept that he would have agreed to do anything

 6     which President Tudjman told him today basically?

 7             "A.  I don't know whether he said that, but I imagine if he said

 8     that, that I could say that that's the way it was."

 9             Now, I take it, sir, and I put to you, that what you confirmed

10     there was whether you could say whether those were his exact words or

11     not, you were confirming on that occasion that that information would be

12     consistent with what you knew about the man; correct?

13        A.   I'm a linguist, as I already said, and I know what the word "if"

14     in English means, I know that full well.  Now, what you say, respected

15     Prosecutor, it says, "if he said that, he might do that," but I'm not --

16     I can't say what he was thinking and what -- when he said that, and

17     that's quite normal.

18        Q.   It's not hugely important enough to spend a lot of time on, but

19     let me go back and perhaps it's partly my error for not reading an

20     earlier part of your testimony to put it in larger context.  And for that

21     I regret.

22             Let me go back up and let me be clear, and this is still the same

23     page citations, counsel.

24             The previous two questions were these:

25             "Q.  You know a man called Miro Lasic?

Page 29667

 1             "A.  Yes, I know him.  He was a member of the Presidency of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             "Q.  You know or presumably knew at the time what his attitude

 4     towards affairs generally was.  Would you accept that he might say in a

 5     meeting, not a meeting at which you were necessarily present, but would

 6     you accept that he might be saying at about that time, March of 1993,

 7     that he was willing to do any task which the president of Croatia might

 8     have given him?

 9             "A.  That is the position of Mr. Miro Lasic."

10             I repeat that:  "That is the position of Mr. Miro Lasic.  I do

11     not want to express my own opinion about that and there is no need for me

12     to express my own view which is different from that.

13             "Q.  Do I take it that you're accepting in general that Lasic --

14     tell us, what was Lasic's function at the time?

15             "A.  He was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

16             And now we come back to the part that I've put to you now several

17     times.

18             "Q.  And you accept that he would have agreed to do anything

19     which President Tudjman told him to do basically?

20             "A.  I don't know whether he said that, but I imagine if he said

21     that, that I could say that that's the way it was."

22             And that was in reference to the previous question that would be

23     put to you:  "Was he willing to do any task which the president of

24     Croatia might have given him?"

25             And your answer is:  "That is the position of Mr. Miro Lasic."

Page 29668

 1             Correct?

 2        A.   I said that those were the words.  That was the sense of what he

 3     was saying.  Now I repeat - and you see how long we've been discussing

 4     this point, we didn't discuss it at length on the occasion, so we can't

 5     come to a precise conclusion then as far as the words I uttered then.

 6     That's why I'd like to explain them now and interpret them now.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's move on from that.  Perhaps we'll have occasion

 8     to come back to it in a few minutes.

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I would like to go into private session

10     now, please.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's move into private

12     session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29669











11 Pages 29669-29673 redacted. Private session.















Page 29674

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please wait, Mr. Registrar.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29675

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I would just -- if I could -- out of an

17     abundance of caution or paranoia on my part just to go back and I think

18     it's okay for this to be in open session.  I have no objection to the

19     witness having a copy of his prior testimony, but of course he is -- he

20     will remain sequestered, he shouldn't discuss it with anyone, of course

21     anyone else while he is testifying; and I'm sure the Chamber will make

22     that clear.

23        Q.   Now, sir, we're back in open session now and I do want to, in

24     light of what we were talking about before the break, and that was the

25     topic and the topic wasn't a secret, of the naming or at least the fact

Page 29676

 1     that Mr. Izetbegovic continued to serve a third term as president.  I

 2     would like then, based on everything that we've talked about so far, to

 3     in fact refer you to your Kordic testimony.  And on this occasion I have

 4     an excerpt in both English and in Croatian if the usher could assist,

 5     please, by putting that on the ELMO so that everyone can see it.

 6             And I refer to -- excuse me a moment, please.  I'm referring to

 7     page 20469 and 24 -- 20470 of the Kordic transcript.  And, sir, is it

 8     correct that in the Kordic case in connection with this topic you said --

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Scott, it's on the ELMO but not on our

10     screen yet, so there must be some technical problem.

11             MR. SCOTT:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I don't blame you for that.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently we have a problem.

15     The document is moving.

16             MR. SCOTT:  I've never had this problem before.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe, Mr. Scott, you could put

18     your questions about this document on Monday.

19             MR. SCOTT:  Well, it's right at this point unfortunately, Your

20     Honour.  I'm not sure why we're having such -- it's the most I always

21     thought simplest piece of equipment in the courtroom.  It's not in

22     e-court, it's simply on the ELMO.  All right.  I can simply read it.  I

23     thought it might assist the -- the witness can certainly have --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, read the passage out.

25             MR. SCOTT:  If you can put it, Mr. Usher, please in front of the

Page 29677

 1     witness, in that particular instance it's also in Croatian.

 2        Q.   And at the reference I gave you earlier, sir, you gave this

 3     testimony in the Kordic case:

 4             "Mr. Izetbegovic said that he cannot withdraw because of his

 5     forces.  I promised to him that I would make an effort, that the Croat

 6     side accepts that he extends his mandate for a third term because in the

 7     constitution it does not say expressly that this is impossible.  However,

 8     the constitution talks about the members of the Presidency because the

 9     president is not elected directly by the people.  I think this is very

10     important."

11             Now, sir, that is the testimony that you gave in the Kordic case;

12     correct?

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, in -- for the -- under the rule of

14     completeness I would ask that we read the previous paragraph as well

15     starting from line 6 to line 11 because it's part of the answer to the

16     question.

17             MR. SCOTT:  Well, that's fine, if that -- take my time.

18        Q.   Starting at page 6, sir, and you won't have it in the excerpt in

19     front of you and I'm sorry, and I will read slowly I hope:

20             "Mr. Izetbegovic's term was brought into question."

21             No question about that here, we've talked about that this

22     afternoon?

23             "He promised that he would put this on the agenda of the

24     Presidency meeting because it was the members of the Presidency who were

25     electing the president from amongst themselves for one term or for two

Page 29678

 1     terms, but they cannot do it for the third term."

 2             Now referring again, in case someone didn't get it the first

 3     time.

 4             "Mr. Izetbegovic said that he cannot withdraw because of his

 5     forces.  I promised to him that I would make an effort that the Croat

 6     side accepts that he extends his mandate for a third term because in the

 7     constitution it does not say expressly that this is impossible."

 8             That was your testimony, sir, and that's in fact what happened;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Mr. Izetbegovic never placed this on the agenda.  I, on the other

11     hand, promised him to make an effort, as this reflects; however, had he

12     placed this on the agenda I don't know what the result would have been

13     because there were other -- another two members of the Presidency.  I was

14     the prime minister.

15        Q.   And who were the other two members that you're referring to now,

16     just so there's no confusion about that?

17        A.   I'm talking about the two Croat members, Franjo Boras and

18     Miro Lasic.  Nevertheless, in order for Mr. Izetbegovic's term of office

19     to be extended, he would have required at least four votes in favour.  We

20     realized already that Mr. Fikret Abdic opposed this.  In this specific

21     case the Serbs were hesitant.  We did discuss that, mind you.  Therefore,

22     I can't tell you what the result would have been of that vote of the

23     Presidency meeting had the vote ever taken place.

24        Q.   But we'll come back to that, whether it was put --

25     Mr. Izetbegovic put it on the agenda as you say or not.  But sir, it's

Page 29679

 1     correct, is it not, that what you told Mr. Izetbegovic around that time

 2     in this conversation, the one that you testified to under oath in the

 3     Kordic case, is that the Croat side agreed to extend his mandate for a

 4     third term; correct?

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  That's not true.  That's not what he said.  He

 6     would make an effort --

 7             MR. SCOTT:  The transcript says:  "I promised to him that I would

 8     make an effort, that the Croat side accepts that he extend his mandate

 9     for a third term."

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  I think he needs to be asked to interpret whatever

11     is put down here --

12             MR. SCOTT:  Well, Mr. --

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  -- because I think it's a two-step process:  Did

14     the Croats accept, that's number one.  Because the way the question is

15     being posed is as if Mr. Akmadzic is claiming that the Croats have

16     already accepted and now he's going to make an effort.  So I think he

17     needs to be asked concretely, but the record speaks for itself.

18             MR. SCOTT:  [Microphone not activated]

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I think the first step would be:  Did you

20     actually make the effort that you promised that you would make, and the

21     second would be:  What was the result of that effort with the Croats.

22             MR. SCOTT:  [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Scott, please.

24             Microphone, please.

25             MR. SCOTT:  -- I don't think that's a fair reading of the

Page 29680

 1     transcript, and it's not for counsel to give his interpretation either.

 2     I read verbatim the transcript and where the comma appears, and that's

 3     not my -- that's not Ken Scott's characterization.  I have simply read

 4     what his testimony under oath was.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  And just for the record, Judge Trechsel, I would

 6     agree with you; however, I would also wish to point out that the

 7     gentleman did indicate that it was never tabled.  It was never put on the

 8     agenda.

 9             MR. SCOTT:  That's a separate question.  I made that very

10     clear --

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  -- to make an effort.

12             MR. SCOTT:  I was trying to be very fair to the witness and to

13     the record and saying I accept your position that you say that

14     Mr. Izetbegovic said it would be put on the agenda and he says -- he says

15     it was not, but that's a separate issue.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yeah.

17             MR. SCOTT:  That's a separate issue.  And what I put to the

18     witness was his testimony in the Kordic case, and I'm simply reading it

19     verbatim.  It doesn't say, I will try or the Croat side might accept:

20             "I will make an effort, that the Croat side accepts," present

21     tense, "accepts that he extend his mandate for a third term."

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  Excuse me.

23             MR. SCOTT:  I'm not going to characterize it --

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Let me, because I'm hopefully seen as being

25     neutral.  Why do we not ask the witness what he meant when he said the

Page 29681

 1     words?  And it seems that Mr. Antonetti sometimes stresses the importance

 2     of the comma and you seem to stress the comma very strongly.  But maybe,

 3     as we have the witness here.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Of course, Your Honour, if you do that.  But I

 5     again -- just make the record clear, what I've tried to do is to avoid

 6     characterizing it and simply read it to the witness as put, and I don't

 7     think Mr. Karnavas should argue his interpretation --

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  I did not --

 9             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, in front of the witness either --

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, if I may be heard for a second.  I'm

11     not going to argue anything.  I do wish to put on the record, however,

12     that this is not a document that was generated by the gentleman.  We have

13     a stenographer and they put the commas, those commas are put there by

14     them, and maybe they thought there should be a comma there, and that's

15     why I believe Judge Trechsel is absolutely correct, and I concur, and I

16     support that.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  [Microphone not activated]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Scott.

19             MR. SCOTT:

20        Q.   Sir, this entire situation I put to you was in fact by agreement

21     that Mr. Izetbegovic proceed to a third term, that this was an agreement

22     reached including with President Franjo Tudjman of Croatia, and the

23     agreement in fact was Mr. Lasic, I put to you the Prosecution case,

24     Mr. Lasic who was Mr. Tudjman's man would replace Mr. Kljuic who had been

25     a thorn in Mr. Boban's side and in return for that, Mr. Izetbegovic would

Page 29682

 1     get -- would be allowed to serve another term.  That was the political

 2     deal that was cut; correct?

 3        A.   Is that a question for me?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   This is not correct, Your Honour.  There was a relationship

 6     between Lasic and Tudjman, and the relationship between Lasic and

 7     Izetbegovic.  I will not address this.  It's not my place to talk about

 8     that.  It is my place to do what I was first cautioned about when I came

 9     to this courtroom, to tell the truth, and the truth is Mr. Izetbegovic

10     did not hold the Presidency meeting, he was not willing to hold the

11     Presidency meeting, he was not willing to place his own issue on the

12     agenda.  The only promise I made him was this:  We would deal with the

13     situation, we would discuss this at a Presidency meeting.  If necessary,

14     we would go to our best lawyers to see if this was, in fact, feasible or

15     not.  Had it turned out to be possible for a third extension of the term

16     of office - and what I'm telling you here is that there was another

17     Muslim before him, Munib Mesihovic, who had abandoned all his positions

18     because apparently he was adamant that he should enjoy a third term in

19     office.  And the rules of procedure that applied to him were the same

20     that applied to all of us.

21             Therefore, there could not have been a third term of office,

22     certainly not without amending the rules of procedure.  I do not have on

23     me a copy of the constitution.  If there is a copy floating around, I

24     think it would be very good idea to go back to the constitution and see

25     what it says.  I think what it says is probably that the Presidency

Page 29683

 1     should work under the rules of procedure.

 2        Q.   And if you could then turn next, please, to Exhibit P 00697,

 3     which should be in the second binder, I believe.  If the usher can

 4     assist, please, I'm sorry.  00697, please.

 5             So this is a letter presented to the Security Council of the

 6     United Nations dated -- the letter itself I believe is dated the 1st of

 7     November, 1992, being transmitted on the 2nd of November, 1992.  And it's

 8     a joint communique issued following talks, it says, between the president

 9     of the Republic of Croatia, who of course would be Franjo Tudjman; and

10     the president of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11     Now, directing your attention to the top of the third page of the

12     document, page 3, first paragraph starting on that page:

13             "President Izetbegovic informed President Tudjman on the coming

14     reconstruction of the BH government.  The post of prime minister will be

15     entrusted to a nominee of the Croatian Democratic Union of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina," which I think, sir, was you.  "HDZ president

17     Mr. Mate Boban who attended the meeting said that the representatives of

18     the Croatian people in BH had proposed Mr. Miro Lasic as their member

19     within the BH Presidency."

20             All that is correct, is it not?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And I should have said earlier that actually, you know, there was

23     a, if you will -- not only was there a deal concerning Mr. Lasic and

24     Mr. Izetbegovic, but it was also the fact -- it was also agreed that you

25     would be the one moving into the prime minister spot, correct, as

Page 29684

 1     indicated here?

 2        A.   I didn't attend these talks, not as far as I remember; therefore,

 3     I can hardly be expected to comment, can I.

 4        Q.   The passage I read to you a moment ago says:  "The post of prime

 5     minister will be entrusted to a nominee of the Croatian Democratic

 6     Union."

 7             And I put it to you again, sir, that the arrangement that was

 8     made was Lasic would replace Kljuic, you would be the Croat prime

 9     minister, and Tudjman and everyone would agree to Izetbegovic serving

10     another term, correct, and this was discussed with Tudjman.

11             "President Izetbegovic informed President Tudjman on the coming

12     reconstruction of the BH government ..."

13             And that's exactly what happened, isn't it?

14        A.   I categorically rule this out.  This is not what happened, at

15     least not that I'm aware of.  A member of the HDZ, or rather, the

16     representative of the HDZ, its candidate, was Mr. Jure Pelivan who

17     preceded me.  According to the tripartite division that I mentioned, the

18     Assembly, the government, and the Presidency, in each of these three

19     there would have been an official belonging to each of the three

20     different ethnic groups.

21        Q.   Let's go on to Exhibit P 10464, which should be in binder number

22     3, please.  This is a further communication to the Security Council on

23     the 18th of December, 1992, again a letter being filed or submitted by

24     Mr. Nobilo.  On the third page of that document -- there's a number of

25     statements in the letter, actually, I think the Chamber may have seen it

Page 29685

 1     before, I'm not sure about that.  But in the top of the third page it is

 2     also -- it is indicated:

 3             "It is also clear that any provision of weapons by the Republic

 4     of Croatia to Muslims and Croats fighting the armed forces of the

 5     legitimate Government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be

 6     in accordance with this agreement," making reference to the Friendship

 7     Agreement of July 1992, which we will also be discussing at some points.

 8             And my question to you, sir:  Wasn't it the case that around this

 9     time and thereafter, and we can pull out a lot of United Nations

10     documents if we need to, Croatia continued to take the position that the

11     then-existing government of Bosnia and Herzegovina was legitimate or was

12     Croatia misleading or making inaccurate statements to the United Nations?

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm going to object to the form of the question.

14     Whether Croatia recognises by de facto this legitimate government or not

15     is irrelevant.  What is relevant as to whether the government in Bosnia

16     and Herzegovina was actually legitimate based on the constitution and the

17     rules of procedure.  Now, that's final argument.  It's argumentative, and

18     the documents do speak for themselves.  Tudjman was making contact with

19     Izetbegovic all the time and he saw him as the head of state or treated

20     him as such.  That doesn't mean that he was head of state.  So I don't

21     think that this is proper cross-examination.

22             MR. SCOTT:  My question to the witness is:

23        Q.   Do you know, sir, from your extensive involvement in this area

24     that you have spent the last three days telling us about, that it

25     remained throughout this period, at least through 1992 and into 1993, the

Page 29686

 1     position of Mr. Tudjman and his government that the existing government

 2     in Bosnia was, as stated by the permanent representative of the Republic

 3     of Croatia to the United Nations, Mr. Mario Nobilo, the legitimate

 4     government of that state?

 5        A.   I don't think the position of President Tudjman is essential at

 6     all here, and I don't wish to debate that.  Mr. Tudjman was the president

 7     of Croatia, I was the prime minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     Mr. Miro Lasic and Mr. Boras were the members of the Presidency of BH.

 9     Whatever President Tudjman said, let that be the relationship between

10     Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina and not relations within

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, except for the fact that as you had cases that he --

12     well, together with Turkey or as a good-will mission, he acted as a

13     go-between to try and bring about peace.

14        Q.   Can I ask you next, please, to go to Exhibit 1D - it's a Defence

15     exhibit, it's in the third binder --

16             MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, Your Honours, we've tried to put all

17     the documents in the Prosecution binder so we don't have to go back to

18     the Defence binders to make it at least that much easier, a little

19     easier.

20        Q.   If you can look - we might need assistance, Mr. Usher - 1D 00942

21     in the third binder.  If you have this, sir, you were -- you looked at

22     this, I believe, during your -- well, I'm sure you did, in fact, because

23     I have the transcript reference here.  On Monday you looked at this

24     document and you said at that time - and I just want to make it very

25     clear for the record - this was adopted by the full Presidency in June of

Page 29687

 1     1992 when, as you told us earlier today, the Presidency was entirely

 2     legal and legitimate; correct?

 3        A.   Am I looking at the right document?  I'm not sure.  Could you

 4     repeat the question, and I'll answer without looking at the paper.

 5        Q.   Well, I think in this case, sir, it's better if you do.  It's

 6     titled:  "Platform," 1D 00942.

 7        A.   Yes, I have it now.

 8        Q.   Sir, that was adopted -- I'll just -- let me simply remind you

 9     that you testified on Monday at pages 33 and 34 of the record:

10             "Self-government was defined quite vaguely in the platform.  We

11     adopted the platform."

12             And will you confirm further, sir, that, in fact, in June 1992

13     the Presidency, as we discussed earlier this afternoon, as then composed

14     and functioning was entirely legal and entirely legitimate?

15        A.   In June 1992 the Presidency was a legal and legitimate organ, in

16     June 1992.

17        Q.   Now, let me next ask you to go to -- it should be in the third

18     binder, I believe, let me just -- 1D 02853.  Sir, you were asked during

19     one of the examinations by the Defence about this document, which to

20     refresh your memory and the courtroom's memory, so to speak, this was the

21     transmission of an agreement that was apparently signed on the 3rd of

22     March, 1993, by Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Boban, Mr. Silajdzic, and yourself,

23     Mr. Akmadzic.  Do you recall that, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I do recall that.

25        Q.   Now, if we look at item number 6 of that document, please, of the

Page 29688

 1     annex agreement:

 2             "The parties agree that the institution of the Presidency shall

 3     be preserved during the period of interim government.  There will be nine

 4     members on the interim Presidency with three representatives from each of

 5     the three constituent peoples."

 6             Now -- then if we go to paragraph 9 on the top of the next page.

 7             "The parties have submitted the following six names to serve in

 8     the interim Presidency:  Fikret Abdic, Mile Akmadzic, Franjo Boras,

 9     Ejup Ganic, Alija Izetbegovic, and Miro Lasic.  The co-chairmen will ask

10     the Bosnian Serbs to propose three Serb representatives to serve on the

11     Presidency."

12             My first question to you, sir:  The six persons that were just

13     named were, in fact, identical to the existing Presidency, correct?  So

14     that represented no change whatsoever, it was Abdic, Akmadzic, Boras,

15     Ganic, and Izetbegovic, and Lasic; correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And in connection with the Serb persons who would be selected

18     around this time, do you have any reason to believe that the existing

19     Serb members - if we go back to our original chart - that those same Serb

20     members would have also been named on this interim Presidency?

21        A.   Since they weren't legally elected, at least not fully legal as I

22     stipulated today, our agreement with the presiding people who conducted

23     this was that they would hold negotiations for the Serbs completely

24     legally and completely legitimately represent their people in the

25     Assembly.  So possibly the presiders thought that those members of the

Page 29689

 1     Presidency should be returned who had been elected, but I can't confirm

 2     that.

 3        Q.   Just to be clear, I now have the document in front of me again,

 4     this was Pejanovic, Ms. Ljujic-Mijatovic, and Mr. Lazovic, who was

 5     filling the position at least by function of president of the Assembly.

 6     And remind you that this agreement at least as stated here doesn't talk

 7     about people being -- whether they were legally elected or not, this is

 8     supposedly a peace agreement as to how the body will be composed.  So is

 9     there any reason to believe that those -- these exact six people as the

10     others, that the same three Serbs wouldn't have been named as well?

11        A.   As the sentence reads here:  "The parties will ask that the

12     Bosnian Serbs propose three Serbian representatives -- the co-chairmen

13     will ask the Bosnian Serbs to propose three Serb representatives to serve

14     on the Presidency."

15             I don't want to say any more than that because it's not a

16     question of us Croats, but the co-chairmen and the Serb side.

17        Q.   Now, if we go back to the previous page, Article 7, please, again

18     seemingly quite similar to the previous arrangement.

19             "The nine members of the interim Presidency shall designate one

20     member to serve as President of the Presidency.  The President will

21     perform the role of head of State.  The position of President will rotate

22     every six months among the three constituent peoples in accordance with

23     the existing sequence of rotation (Muslim, Croat, Serb)."

24             I put to you, sir, as a result of that wasn't it the case

25     Mr. Izetbegovic being a Muslim would have then served another six-month

Page 29690

 1     term from March until at least September 1993?

 2        A.   I don't think you're right on that score.  This rotation, Muslim,

 3     Croat, and Serb, is stated here.  It could have been the reverse.  So

 4     this does not in any way mean that a Muslim would have to be the first

 5     person.  But I also have to say that it doesn't mean that a Muslim would

 6     not be the first either.  And I also have to state that here we're

 7     dealing with the application of a plan which need not be completely in

 8     conformity of the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina as we know.  The

 9     Washington Agreements weren't in conformity with that either.

10        Q.   Sir, my point to you and I put the question to you, that this is

11     an agreement that you and Mr. Boban and Izetbegovic and Silajdzic signed,

12     and it's quite -- clearly the case that could have at least very well

13     have been, and at least to the six was, the very same persons who

14     composed the Presidency before, possibly with Mr. Izetbegovic by this

15     rotation, and I simply will rely on the language of the persons who wrote

16     and signed the document used, Muslim being listed first.  For a Muslim

17     being the president at that time essentially confirming the exact

18     arrangements that were then in place; correct?

19        A.   I'd like to state to the Trial Chamber that this is not in

20     conformity with the constitution because the constitution says this

21     precisely.  This is in conformity with the international negotiations

22     being held and which were underway and which we don't know how they

23     ended.  If the negotiations were to be successful, then everything is

24     possible.

25        Q.   Of course, sir, but I'm referring to the document that you signed

Page 29691

 1     and Mr. Boban signed and Mr. Izetbegovic signed and Mr. Silajdzic signed

 2     and submitted, and submitted, to the United Nations.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I --

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  -- before you leave the document, may I just

 6     raise a little point for clarification.  At several instances here the

 7     co-chairmen are mentioned.  Would you tell the Chamber who this refers

 8     to.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This refers to Lord Owen and

10     Cyrus Vance.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I thought as much, but I want to

12     have it on the record.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to add another sentence

14     here and it is this.  Under point 6:  "The parties agree that the

15     institution of the Presidency shall be preserved during the period of the

16     interim government," the interim government, so we're talking about an

17     interim government and I said that international negotiations were being

18     conducted.  And when we were on the subject of international negotiations

19     we didn't always rely on the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have two follow-up questions.

21             Mr. Scott, you'll deal with the next item next week because we'll

22     soon have to finish, and I'd rather we dealt with this document today.

23             Under item 7 of this agreement it is said -- the sequence of

24     rotation is specified:  Muslim, Croat, and Serb.  Unless I am mistaken I

25     thought that was the traditional rotation, first a Muslim, then a Croat,

Page 29692

 1     then a Serb, et cetera, so that was the logical order which may account

 2     for the fact that this is recalled here under item 7.  But let me get to

 3     item 10.  Would you mind looking at paragraph 10.  I think it's a very

 4     relevant one.

 5             "The parties," signatories of this document in other words,

 6     "agree that in the interim period there should be continuity and that the

 7     legal institutions will be preserved to the extent possible," apparently,

 8     "but it should also be compatible with the nine Constitutional

 9     Principles."

10             So this paragraph 10, don't you think -- I know you're not a

11     lawyer, but don't you think that this indicates that the signatories

12     agree, as it were, that there should be a continuation of the interim

13     period; however, that this period should be compatible with the

14     constitution?  What do you think?  Because, you know, when you have an

15     agreement there's always a provisional provision indicating the

16     time-period concerned for the application, or then there is an interim

17     period that continues until such and such a date.  You were a signatory

18     of this document, so I suppose that you discussed the issue including

19     paragraph 10, didn't you?

20             Can you shed some light on this?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the

22     application of the Vance-Owen Plan, that's what we're dealing with here.

23     The constitutional principles which we adopted, all three parties, that

24     is to say, in Geneva previously, at the beginning of January 1993.  The

25     transitional period here that is mentioned relates to the period from the

Page 29693

 1     signing of that plan up until the new constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 2     which would put all that within legal frameworks and regulate all the

 3     matters concerned.  It is the assumption that this transitional period,

 4     however long it be, must reflect the continuity of Bosnia-Herzegovina on

 5     the international and domestic level.  On the international level it was

 6     already a recognised state by the United Nations; on the domestic level,

 7     until Bosnia-Herzegovina was established and the establishment entrenched

 8     in the constitution, these constitutions as set out here will remain in

 9     existence.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What you're telling us is that

11     this paragraph 10 should be read in the light of the Vance-Owen Plan and

12     not necessarily in relation to paragraph 7 regarding this six-month

13     rotation.  This is how I understand your answer.

14             Now has come the time to end the hearing --

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Very short additional question.  On lines 20, 21

16     of page 84, it's probably disappeared for you, you have said:

17             "And when we were on the subject of international negotiations we

18     didn't always rely on the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

19             And I wonder whether there is a link between this non-reliance on

20     the constitution and the situation of the president of the Presidency

21     which was, as you say, not in line with the constitution.  Is there some

22     link or is this nothing to do with each other?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The link should be like this, in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina -- well, when negotiating about Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25     without bearing in mind the constitution, except for the fact that there

Page 29694

 1     are three sovereign nations and that the state must be internationally

 2     recognised.  Now, as to its internal establishment and order, we don't

 3     take the constitution as the basis.  Whether it's going to have

 4     provinces, of which there were ten, or whether there were going to be

 5     three parts, that's not what is discussed here.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may put it in one sentence.  This was only

 7     meant pro futuro?  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pro futuro, yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We shall reconvene

10     on Monday at 2.15.  Thank you.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.23 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

13                           June, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.