Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32485

 1                           Monday, 22 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al. Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.

11             This is Monday, September 22nd, 2008, and I would like to welcome

12     everyone here.  I welcome the accused, the Defence, Mr. Scott and his

13     colleagues, and everyone helping us, notably the interpreters.

14             So before giving the floor to Ms. Alaburic who has a question to

15     raise, I would like to read a short oral decision in line with what I

16     said yesterday.

17             Oral decision requesting the Prlic Defence to submit a new list

18     of witnesses to the Trial Chamber.  The Trial Chamber notes that after

19     the time count provided by the registrar on the 19th of September, 2008,

20     the Defence of Mr. Prlic has used so far 57 hours and six minutes for in

21     chief in direct -- and redirect of its witnesses out of 95 [Realtime

22     transcript read in error "94"] hours which were allocated by the

23     Trial Chamber in the first place.

24             On March 31st, 2008, the Prlic Defence team submitted a list of

25     witnesses it intended to call in this case.  Given the amount of time

Page 32486

 1     used so far, the Trial Chamber is thus asking the Prlic Defence team to

 2     provide it with an updated witness list.  In this new list there should

 3     be an indication of the time the Prlic Defence team intends to allocate

 4     for the examination-in-chief and redirect for each witness.  On line 22

 5     of page 1 there is a small error.  It's not 94 hours but 95 hours that

 6     were allocated in the first place.

 7             So this is the short oral -- my short oral decision and I would

 8     like to also give the floor to our registrar who has some IC numbers

 9     before we give the floor to Mrs. Alaburic.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             Some parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered

12     through Witness Puljic, Borislav.  The list submitted by 1D shall be

13     given Exhibit Number IC 00844, the list submitted by 2D shall be given

14     Exhibit Number IC 00845, the list submitted by 3D shall be given Exhibit

15     Number IC 00846, and the list submitted by the Prosecution shall be given

16     Exhibit Number IC 00847.  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart.

18             MR. STEWART:  [Previous translation continues]... Ms. Alaburic,

19     it's me, Your Honour.  But, Your Honours, I normally try to give the

20     Prosecution advanced noticing of any application.  I apologise, I just

21     haven't had the chance the last few minutes, but I don't think it's

22     anything that's going to overwhelm Mr. Scott.  Your Honours may recall

23     that the Petkovic Defence has filed a motion asking for reconsideration

24     of a decision on the 1st of September in relation to two exhibits -- or

25     four exhibits in total, two for each of two witnesses.  The Prosecution

Page 32487

 1     filed a response towards the end of last week and this is an

 2     application - as we have to make it, Your Honour - this is an application

 3     for leave to reply.  There are just a couple of points that we do wish to

 4     pick up.  The draft reply is around a thousand words.  It's for practical

 5     purposes done.  We would be able to file it within -- well, probably

 6     later today or in the course of tomorrow.  Your Honours, we ask for leave

 7     to file such a reply.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Stewart.  The

10     Trial Chamber grants your motion.

11             MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are allowed, and we

13     always love to listen to you.

14             Let's now bring the witness into the courtroom.

15             Correction on the transcript, line 18, it's not Mr. Scott but

16     Mr. Stewart.  There's a small mistake.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness -- good

19     afternoon, sir.  Could you please give me your name, surname, date of

20     birth.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ilija Kozulj born of the 18th of

22     May, 1940.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

24     occupation?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm an electrical -- technical

Page 32488

 1     engineer.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Previous translation continues]...  job at the

 3     moment?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm retired but I'm still somewhat

 5     active.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Have you already

 7     testified before a court or Tribunal regarding the events that occurred

 8     in former Yugoslavia or is this the first time that you're testifying?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you please read the

11     solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me give you some details on

17     what will happen, but I'm sure that Mr. Karnavas has already told you

18     about this during the proofing session.  You will be asked questions put

19     to you by Mr. Karnavas, and he will also show you documents which are in

20     a binder.  The binder of course will be placed at your disposal, but the

21     documents will also be shown on the screen at the same time.

22             After this first phase, the other counsels of the other accused

23     will cross-examine you either for cross-examination purposes or maybe for

24     re-direct, we don't know yet, but they will be allowed to also put

25     questions to you.  The four Judges on the bench in front of you can also

Page 32489

 1     step in at any time to put questions to you, but they usually do this

 2     when there is a document presented.

 3             The Prosecutor on your right will also ask a round of questions

 4     for his cross-examination after all the Defence teams will have put their

 5     own questions.  Then after this phase the Defence may ask you some

 6     additional questions for the redirect.  All together we have scheduled

 7     four days, four hearing days.  We are sitting in the afternoon this week,

 8     so we will sit from 2.15 to 7.00 this week.  Please try to be very

 9     specific in your answers.  If you don't understand the meaning of a

10     question, just ask the person putting the question to you to reformulate

11     it.

12             You have made a solemn declaration, you have sworn to only say

13     the truth, which means that now you are the witness of justice and you

14     are no longer on the Defence side, if I may say so, which means that you

15     will no longer have any contact with anyone until your hearing is over.

16             I wanted to give you all these details.  Let me also add that we

17     have 20-minute breaks every hour and a half because we need to change our

18     audio-tapes and video-tapes, and it also helps each and everyone here to

19     rest because you'll see that it is quite strenuous, it's -- this exercise

20     is quite strenuous.  Answering questions is strenuous both for the person

21     putting the question and the person answering the question.

22             Mr. Karnavas, you have the floor.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

24     Your Honours.  Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.

25                           WITNESS:  ILIJA KOZULJ

Page 32490

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Examination by Mr. Karnavas:

 3        Q.   And good afternoon, Mr. Kozulj.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   Let me first start by going through your background, and I'll

 6     just start by leading you a little bit.  As I understand it, you have a

 7     degree in electrical engineering; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Would you please tell us when did you receive that degree?

10        A.   In January 1964 was when I graduated.

11        Q.   And as I understand it shortly thereafter you began working in

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina at the PTT; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And what does PTT stand for, just for the record?

15        A.   PTT is an enterprise, usually public enterprise, that provides

16     services that have to do with postal services, telephone, and telegraph.

17     Before you had the postal services and then telephone and telegraph

18     services separate, but now it's all under one umbrella and it's called

19     communications.

20        Q.   All right.  And could you please tell us for how long you worked

21     for PTT in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        A.   I worked about 13 years in the PTT or 14 years.  I moved to the

23     UNIS enterprise in 1978.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, before we speak about UNIS, could you please

25     tell us when you left PTT by that point at what level had you reached

Page 32491

 1     within this public enterprise, what level of the organization?

 2        A.   When I left the PTT, I was head of the technical service, I was

 3     something like a technical director of the company.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now, you indicated that at some point after 13 years

 5     with PTT you switched over to UNIS.  Could you please tell us a little

 6     bit about this particular enterprise.  Is it public or is it socially

 7     owned?  And a little bit about what UNIS is all about.

 8        A.   At the time, UNIS was a social enterprise, a large social

 9     enterprise, with headquarters in Sarajevo.  It had about 100 factories

10     and about 50.000 employees.  The reason why I moved to UNIS was that UNIS

11     at that time signed an agreement on business and technical cooperation

12     with the Ericsson company from Sweden, and it was necessary to build a

13     factory and develop a company that would be making telecommunications

14     equipment.

15        Q.   All right.  Now, first, what year are we speaking of?

16        A.   1978.

17        Q.   Okay.  1978, and if you can please tell us, in light of this new

18     contract with Ericsson, to what extent were you involved in this

19     particular project?

20        A.   I personally did not take part in the signing of the agreement,

21     but when I was asked to go to UNIS and when I agreed to do that and to

22     work at that position and to take responsibility for the implementation

23     of these complex tasks, I was given an introduction and I was given the

24     contract to review.  And I was told, Well, this is what we signed and now

25     you can see what you need to do.  At that time, UNIS as a group didn't

Page 32492

 1     have telecommunications experts.

 2        Q.   All right.  And specifically in just a few words, could you

 3     please tell us what exactly you did based on this contract that you were

 4     asked to basically review and implement.

 5        A.   In order to build a factory, you needed to secure about $5

 6     million US.  At that time we didn't have those funds and we had to create

 7     an investment project and ask the banks for funds.  That was one

 8     activity.  The second activity was to put together the staff who would be

 9     working there.  The third activity was to create technical specifications

10     that would be built at the factory so that they could be used by the PTT

11     branch in Mostar, so that they could use it.  So this was a very

12     demanding aspect of the work.

13        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:

16        Q.   We're speaking of taking it from the contract or from the concept

17     all the way to its total realization where the factory's working; is that

18     what we're speaking of?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And --

21        A.   Exactly.

22        Q.   And to what extent were you specifically involved?  At what level

23     were you in this enterprise?

24        A.   First I was the director of the company that was being

25     established, and later I became the director of the company itself.

Page 32493

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, at some point as I understand it you moved to

 2     Sarajevo; is that correct -- or you were also employed in Sarajevo?

 3        A.   I worked in Mostar.  My first assignment was to take a number of

 4     UNIS enterprises and put them together as one company after this factory

 5     was built, to create a sort of synergy, so I had to create or draft a

 6     project how to do this job, how to bring all these companies under one

 7     umbrella.  After that I became the director of this larger company with

 8     headquarters in Mostar.  After that, I was appointed a member of the

 9     business board of -- or governing board of the entire UNIS company, and I

10     was in charge of the companies that were producing electronic and

11     telecommunications equipment.

12        Q.   All right.  I am pausing because the translators are having a

13     little bit of a difficulty keeping up with you, so I'm going to ask you

14     to slow down a little bit.  Now, if I can ask you, where were you when --

15     where did the war find you, if I can put it that way?

16        A.   I happened to be between Mostar and Sarajevo.  I had a temporary

17     apartment in Sarajevo and I was still performing the duties of the member

18     of the managing board of UNIS, but I was actually working and receiving

19     my salary from another UNIS company that was located in Ljubljana.  Most

20     of the factory from my group happened to be in Mostar so that was the

21     reason why I went to Mostar quite frequently.

22        Q.   All right.  As I understand it -- because we'll go through the

23     documents but we've seen your name last week in one of the documents.  At

24     some point you were appointed to the special-purpose council; is that

25     correct?

Page 32494

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   If you could please describe to us the events in Mostar,

 3     particularly as it related to UNIS, your factory, but also in general

 4     prior to you being selected to serve on the special-purpose council.

 5        A.   After the democratic elections and the possibility to set up a

 6     new authority in the best possible way, tensions began, wartime

 7     activities began in Croatia.  I happened to be on a business trip in

 8     Sweden as a matter of fact, and on the way back -- actually, while I was

 9     still in Sweden we heard the news on CNN that reservists and forces of

10     the Yugoslav People's Army had come to Mostar.  Of course I came to

11     Mostar.  I managed to get to Mostar without any major difficulties, but

12     the situation in Mostar at the time was such that forces of the Yugoslav

13     People's Army and the reservists occupied or came to certain military

14     facilities and simply moved around the town more and more.  The situation

15     was fairly dangerous.  UNIS's factories in Mostar were immediately next

16     to the JNA barracks in Mostar so that the entrance to the UNIS factory

17     was practically under the supervision of the military forces of the JNA.

18        Q.   Was that on the east side or the west side?

19        A.   This was on the east side.

20        Q.   All right.  And to what extent, if any, were these factories

21     affected as a result of the war or the activities that took place

22     thereafter?  We know that -- we've heard testimony that there was

23     fighting, that the east side of Mostar fell.  But with regard to the UNIS

24     factories, to what extent were they damaged, if any?

25        A.   Well, we immediately saw that the situation was difficult.  There

Page 32495

 1     were discussions about saving the equipment and the material that we had

 2     and moving it to a safer area.  Some from the several factories did that,

 3     each one of them did something but not to a sufficient degree.  I must

 4     say that Mostar was very isolated at that time.  Mostar had only one,

 5     conditionally speaking, free exit from town which was controlled by

 6     shelling from Serb positions.  All the other roads out of Mostar were

 7     blocked.  So in these conditions the special-purpose council was formed.

 8        Q.   All right.  And to your understanding, if you could just briefly

 9     tell us, what did you think at the time the special-purpose council was

10     all about?  Why did it come into existence and what was its aims and

11     purposes?

12        A.   At the time we felt it was our responsibility and we also were

13     willing to help to defend ourselves from aggression in some way.  Of

14     course younger people were willing and accepted to bear arms, but us

15     older people were more useful in other jobs and I think the

16     special-purpose council's role was to help in these defence situations

17     more from the aspect of logistics and resolving problems as far as the

18     civilian range of activities in defence was concerned.

19        Q.   At that point in time, were you a member of a political party,

20     and specifically, were you a member of HDZ?

21        A.   No, I was not a member of the HDZ.

22        Q.   Would it be fair to say that you were more associated with the

23     previous system, given that you had worked for a public enterprise?  And

24     I believe there's a particular word that they use for folks like yourself

25     who were associated with that system at high levels.

Page 32496

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  I was a member of the communist party, I can put it

 2     that way.  It's more easily understood.  But before the democratic

 3     changes I actually didn't wish to take my chance there.  I did not join

 4     the HDZ, and even now I think that the HDZ is a movement of the Croatian

 5     people and that it's still not the right time for party divisions or

 6     options.

 7        Q.   But fair to say at the time you were -- you would have been

 8     considered what they call - and I don't mean to disrespect you - as a

 9     "komunjara," a communist, that would be the term; correct?

10        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  Yes, I did belong to that group that was referred

11     to as "komunjara".

12        Q.   Now, we know from the documents that we will see that at some

13     point you became a minister in the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   All right.  That would have been I believe sometime in 1993.  Up

17     until the point you became a minister of the Croatian Republic of

18     Herceg-Bosna, did you formally participate in any official capacity, that

19     is, in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna either at the municipal

20     level or any other level?

21        A.   No, I was just a member of the special-purpose council.

22        Q.   All right.  And if you could please tell us, throughout this

23     period, that is all the way up until the point of time you became a

24     minister of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, in general if you

25     could describe to us the sorts of activities that you were involved in.

Page 32497

 1        A.   At the time I worked as best as I could in the special-purpose

 2     council, and then at the point in time when the telecommunications

 3     facility in Mostar was destroyed I helped people to resolve some of their

 4     questions, to deal with it.  And as they kept banding together and

 5     strengthening their organization, I was pulling back.  I must admit that

 6     I was appointed member of the board of governors of the PTT public

 7     company when that was founded.  So that was also one of my roles, and one

 8     of the important assignments was to prepare projects for the rebuilding

 9     of post offices and telecommunications in those buildings, that was the

10     main activity.  I was also helping the UNIS organizations to deal with

11     things, to find their feet, to do something to keep their personnel and

12     preserve the equipment as much as they could.  These were my main

13     activities.

14        Q.   All right.  And before we go into those activities in more

15     detail, let's just continue on very briefly generally about your

16     background.  When you became a minister of the Croatian Republic of

17     Herceg-Bosna, what was your -- what were your tasks then and what -- how

18     long did you serve in that capacity?

19        A.   I remained in that post until I got transferred to Sarajevo to

20     the new post, and my tasks were now much broader than they were because

21     in addition to the post of telecommunications I was now in charge also of

22     other infrastructure, such as roads, road traffic, railways and railway

23     traffic, air traffic, and river traffic, and also some technical aspects

24     of radio and television.

25        Q.   One of the important things in the proceedings is trying to get

Page 32498

 1     the dates and periods.  So to the extent possible, if you could help us

 2     out.  You said up until the time you moved to Sarajevo.  When did you go

 3     to Sarajevo, month, year?

 4        A.   Well, I can't really say now, but I think it was in 1995, of

 5     course -- 1995.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And let me see if I can help you out a little bit.  Was

 7     this before or after -- it would have been after Dayton -- I mean, after

 8     Washington; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  I went to Sarajevo after the Dayton Agreement --

10        Q.   After the Dayton Agreement.

11        A.   After the Dayton Agreement.

12        Q.   And when you moved to Sarajevo, what position did you hold then

13     and at what level?

14        A.   I was the assistant minister for foreign trade and communications

15     in charge of communications, which is basically the same thing that I did

16     in the Herceg-Bosna government.

17        Q.   Now, was this at the state level or was this at the entity level?

18        A.   That was at the state level.

19        Q.   Okay.  So that would have covered both the Federation and the

20     Republika Srpska and --

21        A.   Yes, yes, definitely.

22        Q.   And the Brcko area, which hadn't become a district yet.

23        A.   Yes.  That was the first government, the first joint government

24     set up after the Dayton Agreement.

25        Q.   Okay.  And again -- moving right along, how long were you in that

Page 32499

 1     position?

 2        A.   I remained in that position until I moved to the foreign ministry

 3     because I was appointed ambassador to Spain, to the Kingdom of Spain, and

 4     that was in early, or rather, April or May 1998.

 5        Q.   All right.  And how long were you an ambassador to Spain?

 6        A.   I was three -- I was in Spain for three and a half years or

 7     thereabouts.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And upon your return, what did you do?  And if you could

 9     just tell us all the way up to the present time very quickly, that is.

10        A.   Yes, well after that I was an advisor to the president of the

11     Mostar canton or county until I retired.

12        Q.   Well, when did you retire?  When did you retire?

13        A.   Well, I retired in 2006.

14        Q.   Right.  But as I understand it, you're still active at this point

15     in time?

16        A.   Well, I'm still active.  I do have a very important mission.  In

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina there are just a few companies that are operating at

18     the state level, and one of those companies is an independent systems

19     operator.  It's a power distribution company that runs the

20     high-tension/high-voltage distribution lines within Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     and those that lead to other countries.  And for three and a half years

22     I've been the president of the board of directors and I do have some

23     other activities too.

24        Q.   All right.  Including gardening as I understand it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 32500

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, before we speak about the activities that you were

 2     involved in during the special-purpose council, and I think it's no

 3     secret that you were involved primarily in telecommunications, that

 4     aspect of it, I would like you to describe to the Trial Chamber how

 5     telecommunications worked prior to the war.  In fact, you know, if you

 6     could even -- if it helps, prior to the break-up of the former Yugoslavia

 7     so the Trial Chamber can have an understanding of how the system was

 8     working within Yugoslavia and later on with the republic becoming

 9     independent.

10        A.   Could you please tell me if you're asking me this in technical

11     terms or in organizational terms.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, let's start with organizational.  Just be --

13     just give us sort of the skeleton, and then technical -- when we get to

14     the technical, I'm more interested in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15        A.   Well, in organizational terms in Bosnia-Herzegovina there were

16     several companies, one of them was headquartered in Mostar and it covered

17     the broad territory -- let us put it this way, it was Herzegovina all the

18     way down to Trebinje, to Livno, and to Konjic.  It was part of a common

19     system of companies in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was some kind of a holding,

20     that's what you would call it in the West, but it was not a holding as

21     such.  They had a high degree of independence.

22             But let us now turn to technical terms.  Mostar was one of the 17

23     nodes in Bosnia-Herzegovina that had a transit exchange.  Those nodes

24     were all linked with each other.  The link between Mostar and other parts

25     of its area went from the centre to each of those places, like Trebinje,

Page 32501

 1     Livno, and so on, and they all had their communications through Mostar.

 2     Physically speaking, Mostar had in place a system that was linked up with

 3     Sarajevo, it was a coaxial cable that went along the railway line.  There

 4     were also two large-capacity radio relay systems in place, wireless

 5     systems, one went from Mostar to Split and the other went from Mostar to

 6     Titograd.

 7             So these were the three systems that made it possible for Mostar

 8     to establish communications with other areas and enabled others to

 9     communication with each other.  For instance, Belgrade, if Belgrade

10     wanted to communicate with Split, this went through Mostar; and the same

11     went for, let's say, Skopje and Titograd.  So I think that this was a

12     succinct enough explanation on my part.

13        Q.   It was.  Once Sarajevo -- at one point - we've heard testimony

14     that Sarajevo comes under siege - and so I'll ask you:  Did there come a

15     time that the link between Sarajevo and Mostar was cut off?

16        A.   It was cut once and for all when the telecommunications centre in

17     Mostar was shelled, that was in May 1992.

18        Q.   All right.  Now, we heard some testimony from before from

19     Mr. Zarko Primorac.  As I understand it you know him from your days in

20     Sarajevo, and he was here speaking primarily about financial institutions

21     to -- perhaps it's worth recalling, to what extent are telecommunications

22     important, say, for the banking system, particularly the system that was

23     in place at the time, what is known as the payment bureau, SDK?

24        A.   Well, the payment orders between companies could be sent by post

25     or via telecommunications system.  It would be unimaginable to use post

Page 32502

 1     because it's too slow, so for the most part the telecommunications system

 2     was used to link up the banking system and the payments bureau, the SDK.

 3        Q.   All right.  Now, when the linkage between Sarajevo and Mostar is

 4     cut off, what were the possibilities of communicating then with Sarajevo?

 5     What needed to be done or what could have been done and in fact what was

 6     done?

 7        A.   Well, we could do what we actually did.  I don't know what

 8     Sarajevo or other areas could have done, but we could first of all

 9     establish links between the places that were controlled by the HVO.

10     Secondly, in order to establish a link with the rest of the world we had

11     to establish a link with some place, and at that time the only possible

12     place was Split and that's what we did, step by step, but in the end we

13     were quite successful.  As far as Sarajevo was concerned -- well, we

14     always did bear in mind that we wanted to set up a link with Sarajevo,

15     that was always our plan.

16        Q.   Well, what prevented you from setting up a link with Sarajevo?

17     Was it lack of will or were there other circumstances that made it

18     difficult or impossible?

19        A.   Well, in order to set up a link -- well, I have to explain this

20     briefly.  Telecommunication lines, large-capacity telecommunication lines

21     used for telephone lines and for data transfer, that's not simple at all.

22     You have to have in place cables that have to be laid in a variety of

23     ways; in order to do that, you have to have land, you have to be able to

24     communicate freely.  You could also use radio relay wireless equipment,

25     but the larger the capacity, the smaller the distance must be between

Page 32503

 1     various relays.  Again, you have to have freedom of movement, control

 2     over a territory in order to do this job.  You also have to have funds,

 3     equipment, and people with the requisite expertise to do it, and there

 4     also has to be the will of all the participants in this process to

 5     establish this link.

 6        Q.   All right.  Well, you said that at some point you linked up with

 7     Split.  Why Split?  Why not Zagreb?  Why not Ljubljana?  Why not Budapest

 8     or some other place?  Why Split?

 9        A.   Well, I think I've already given you an answer in my previous

10     answer.  You have to control the land in order to establish those links.

11     The only area that we controlled where we could move freely was the

12     territory towards Dalmatia.  There was no other option except using

13     satellite communication, satellite links, to cover a large distance.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, would that answer still go for -- for instance,

15     why not link up with Tuzla?  Would that be your same answer?

16        A.   Well, the same answer.

17        Q.   All right.  And just -- if you could just give us a concrete

18     example.  Let's just say that one wanted to make a telephone call to,

19     say, Germany from Mostar, you know, how would the telephone call be

20     placed?

21        A.   Well, I don't know the time-period that you're referring to.  At

22     the time when Mostar was destroyed there were no communications in

23     Mostar, but of course as soon as we started with our attempts to set up

24     the communications you did the same thing that you do now, you simply

25     dial a phone number.  You could do that in the local area with Croatia,

Page 32504

 1     which was a neighbouring country, or everywhere in the world.  Any number

 2     that was part of this world network could be reached.

 3        Q.   All right.  And would that have to go through Split?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness, a small

 6     technical question.  Did you have connections, telephone links, with

 7     Sarajevo using the fax system?  Throughout that period were there links

 8     or was Mostar totally cut off from the rest of the world?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at that time, if you're

10     asking me about Sarajevo, we did not have any communications with them.

11     The telephone lines were down, fax communication was out.  At that time

12     we did not have mobile phones, we did not have satellite phones.  So to

13     put it quite simply, we had to rely on what we had, cables and radio

14     relay systems that could be used as I explained earlier.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:

16        Q.   All right.  Now, if we could -- yes.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to expand a little bit in that

18     direction.

19             Witness, could you, with a little or as much precision as

20     possible, indicate from which date until which date there was no

21     communication with Sarajevo in the way you have explained?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Communications with Sarajevo were

23     down at the moment when the communications centre in Mostar was shelled,

24     the communications centre in Mostar, and we simply did not have the

25     capability of establishing communications with Sarajevo.

Page 32505

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Could you say at which date that shelling

 2     occurred?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know the exact date

 4     but I think it was shelled in early -- well, in May 1992.  I don't know

 5     if I gave the right date.  I don't know the exact date, maybe the 15th.

 6     It was in May at any rate, the first half of May 1992.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes, and then when did this state of

 8     non-communication end?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From that time on we put in

10     intensive efforts to set up various communications systems in the areas

11     that we had access to, and in this manner we were able to set up

12     communications not only within Herzegovina itself but using those points

13     that we had access to we were able to establish links between Central

14     Bosnia and Mostar.  And likewise, at a point from which you could see

15     Sarajevo, we made it possible for Sarajevo to link up with this network;

16     in other words, for Sarajevo to be linked up with Mostar.  And in the

17     first contacts that I myself had with the people in charge in Sarajevo

18     who were dealing with this aspect, we made this offer to them, to

19     establish this communication line.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And at what time was that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was I think in April 1994.

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And did you do that via directional beam

23     aerials?  Did the dish antennas went point to point?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's how we did it.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And would broadcast have been a possibility,

Page 32506

 1     short-wave, long-wave?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let us make some distinctions

 3     here.  Short-wave and long-wave and ultra-short waves, these are radio

 4     channels -- if you want me to, I can explain, these are radio channels

 5     used for radio stations that do not need repeaters.  Short and

 6     medium-wave, you can sometimes do that for the medium-wave --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Long-wave.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but for voice transmission you

 9     need some capacity.  It is not the same if we're talking about 30 lines

10     that can be used at the same time or 100.000 lines that can be open at

11     the same time.  The higher the number, the more complexity.  For TV

12     signal, you don't need that kind of capacity and you don't need the same

13     kind of equipment for telephone signal transmission and for image

14     transmission.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But wouldn't it have been possible to establish

16     some limited radio connection between Sarajevo and Mostar?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radio Sarajevo broadcasts at 612

18     kilohertz and radio Sarajevo broadcasts could be heard in Mostar at all

19     times, but it wasn't always broadcasting or wasn't always operational.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Another question.  You have mentioned the

21     possibility of the use of satellites.  Now, I understand that was quite

22     some time ago and nothing like today.  Could you tell the Chamber to what

23     degree satellite connection was a realistic option at that time?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, satellite

25     communications were used very seldom for telephone transmission -- well,

Page 32507

 1     they were probably used for military or some other purposes, but for

 2     private users to use this kind of communications -- well, it was just

 3     very limited.  Today, of course, it's quite different.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I can absolutely see that.  You make a

 5     distinction or one can then make a distinction between, let us say,

 6     privileged communications for the government and general possibilities of

 7     communications.  Were there any special, restricted possibilities of

 8     communication between Sarajevo and Mostar that were only accessible to a

 9     limited amount of users?  You have mentioned the military.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to say that I personally

11     don't know that any of my colleagues had a satellite phone at that time

12     because, as I've already explained, they were hard to come by and the --

13     and they're very costly to use.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

15             I hope I have not anticipated too much, Mr. --

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  You have.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  That's okay.  That's all right.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I save your time.  You must be grateful.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, it's actually -- it throws us off and it

21     causes us more complications, but if we could have the binder because I

22     want to get that last question of yours, Judge Trechsel, because I do

23     think that it might be of some assistance.  And I'm going to move in the

24     middle of my presentation to the chapter dealing with telecommunications,

25     PTT.

Page 32508

 1        Q.   If you could go, sir, towards that -- to that section -- if we

 2     could -- we'll find it for you.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  And for everyone else I'm going to be referring to

 4     1D 00433, and it might be good also to have handy 1D 0432, 1D 0434.

 5        Q.   And, sir, if we could look at 1D 00433, do you see that, sir?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   And at the top it talks about satellite telephones, as an item we

 8     have telephone and fax numbers; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  We'll be seeing another document which makes

11     reference to a contract dated back to 1992.  Look at the very first

12     number, we see Alija Izetbegovic.  Did you know who Alija Izetbegovic was

13     at the time, in 1992?

14        A.   Well, I knew, of course I did.

15        Q.   All right.  Now, if we go to number 4 because you were asked

16     about special communications, look at number 4, SDA Mostar.  What does

17     SDA Mostar mean?

18        A.   SDA is the Democratic Action Party.  Its president was Alija

19     Izetbegovic.  It was one of the parties that won at the democratic

20     election, and the Mostar SDA -- well, that would be the regional centre

21     of that party.

22        Q.   So here we have the president of the Presidency having a direct

23     link with his Muslim party headquarters in Mostar; correct?

24        A.   Well, if this document is accurate, then yes that was the case.

25        Q.   All right.  All right.  And we see some other documents --

Page 32509

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry, I have a question of curiosity.  This

 2     document, strange enough, is here in a translation into German --

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  -- can that be explained, please?  Also, also,

 5     there is something handwritten on the original which has not even a

 6     mention in the translation.  Was it added later?

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  These are the original documents that we got from

 8     the Prosecutor, Your Honour.  You will then later on see that there is a

 9     contract from -- there is some documents from a federal court which I got

10     out of Boston, Massachusetts, because Izetbegovic failed to pay the bill

11     and then claimed that he had no knowledge of it.  And what I'm trying to

12     show is that there are some missing links, as it were, but I'm trying to

13     help you out with your question.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I appreciate that.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:

16        Q.   Now, number 17 we see Zenica.  I don't know what the IKB stands

17     for.  And of course --

18        A.   Well, I think it means the Islamic -- it's something to do with

19     Islamic community but I'm not sure.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   I really can't tell you what it means.

22        Q.   All right.  All right.  Now -- and then if we go to the next

23     document, 1D 00432, you know, this is some communications along with a --

24     with some official documents from the United States District Court,

25     district of Massachusetts, we don't need to go into that, but if you

Page 32510

 1     could go to the following document, 1D 00434, we see this is a summons

 2     from a civil case.  It's addressed to Alija Izetbegovic.  We see the

 3     address.  And we don't have time to go through all of the documents,

 4     although I will spell it out at some point, but if everyone can direct

 5     their attention to a document which is a letter signed by Alija

 6     Izetbegovic.  I'm going to read the bottom numbers.  In English, it's

 7     1D 24- --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Karnavas.

 9             Mr. Ibrisimovic wanted to talk.

10             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm just being warned that

11     Mr. Puljic [as interpreted] would need to leave for a minute and I would

12     just need to get your permission to allow him to do that.  Thank you very

13     much.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  No problem.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:

17        Q.   If we look at the document -- and I'm going to read a number,

18     Your Honours.  It's 1D 24-0512 --

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Regarding the previous document after all.

20             Witness, Mr. Kozulj, have you ever seen this document before or

21     have you heard about it or can you say anything about it?

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour -- with all due respect, before you

23     answer the question, if I may be allowed to conduct my direct examination

24     all those questions will be answered.  And I don't mean to interrupt.

25     But you've taken me to this direction, now I'm trying to answer your

Page 32511

 1     questions, and of course the answer to that question is no.  But then if

 2     you allow me to continue with my questioning I will be able to answer.  I

 3     would respectfully request --

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.  Go ahead.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  I have limited amount of time, Your Honours, and

 6     these interruptions do cause us to spend more time on documents than we

 7     wish.

 8        Q.   If we look at this particular document, okay, and I point to

 9     point number 3, it says:  "I have never signed any kind of purchase

10     agreement or utilisation of satellite telephones in my name.  If such

11     agreement exists, it could have been signed only on behalf of PTT Bosnia

12     and Herzegovina or state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, whose president and

13     member of the Presidency I was from 1992 to 2000."

14             Now, let's do some foundational questions.  First, were you aware

15     that Alija Izetbegovic had this satellite contract and was connected to

16     Mostar SDA, Zenica, and all the other places that are noted on those

17     numbers and faxes?  Were you aware of that?

18        A.   I was not aware of that, but at that time I did hear from some

19     people that there are such satellite telephones that were being used in

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        Q.   All right.  Now, it says here that he would not have -- he did

22     not sign it and wasn't aware of anything.  PTT, you indicated you worked

23     there for 13 years.  Could you please tell us, based on your background

24     and experience with PTT, would they have been able to sign such a

25     contract in the name of, in the name of, Alija Izetbegovic?

Page 32512

 1        A.   They were not able to do that, no, absolutely no.  The PTT would

 2     be able to sign or the director of the PTT or some authorised person

 3     could have signed a contract on behalf of the PTT organization.  Who the

 4     funds would be given to for their use, well that's another story

 5     altogether.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, you indicated that this sort of contract would

 7     involve a large amount of money, and indeed we do see that at least the

 8     services that were unpaid for run close to a million dollars, which at

 9     one point meant something.  Now -- and of course this is over a period of

10     time.  But again, based on your knowledge and experience, would PTT be

11     able to enter into such an agreement with a foreign company without the

12     knowledge of the government, the Presidency, the ministry of -- which

13     oversees PTT?  Could PTT have done this all on its own without anyone

14     having any knowledge of it?

15        A.   The PTT is a public company under the administration of the

16     government, and I think for something like this, this is quite a major

17     investment and it's an innovation and I think that they would have needed

18     somebody's oral agreement at least to be able to do it.

19        Q.   All right.  Now -- and one final question.  You did tell us that

20     at some point you were working at the state level, you were working at

21     the state level, after the Dayton Accords.  While you were working in

22     that capacity, as I believe you said it was an assistant minister level,

23     dealing specifically with this particular area, that is,

24     telecommunications, were you ever informed that Izetbegovic or PTT, for

25     instance, had engaged in this contract and of course had refused to pay

Page 32513

 1     for the services?  But I'm primarily interested in whether you had

 2     learned that they had actually engaged in this contract.

 3        A.   I never found out about it and I was never informed about it

 4     either.

 5        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  I have no further questions on

 6     this area.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  If, Judge Trechsel, you wish to supplement

 8     concerning the satellite phones.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  No I think that's okay.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  If we wish to get certified copies from the US

11     courthouse, we can do that.

12        Q.   All right.  Now, we were talking about telecommunications.  You

13     went into more detail than we wanted at this point, but I think it's

14     useful.  Now I want to switch your attention a little bit again for

15     general purposes to the issue of electricity.  You told us the current

16     position you hold.  You've told us that you were an electrical engineer.

17     I assume that you studied electricity, you know, when you got your

18     degree.  If you could please tell us in general how the electrical system

19     worked in Bosnia-Herzegovina prior to the war.  Just give us the same

20     thing that you did with telecommunications, do that with electricity now.

21        A.   Well, in the organizational aspect first.  The electrical system

22     has three main activities:  The manufacture of electricity, this could be

23     hydro-electric power-plants, thermal power-plants, nuclear power-plants,

24     at the time we only had the hydro-electric power-plants and the thermal

25     power-plants; then you would have the power distribution to households

Page 32514

 1     and to companies; the third area would be the transmission of electricity

 2     from the place it was being manufactured to the distribution centres.

 3     The electrical utilities in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina were

 4     organized at the time in a way that you had distribution companies, there

 5     were some production companies, and also there was a separate company for

 6     the transmission of electrical -- of electricity whose headquarters were

 7     in Sarajevo.  When you look at Mostar, its electrical distribution

 8     company was headquartered there and then you had one power-plant as part

 9     of it, then you had the transmission from the place of production to the

10     distribution points, and there was also a part of the company on the

11     Neretva River that had a number of hydro-electric power-plants along the

12     river.

13        Q.   All right.

14        A.   At the same time, this is also a technical aspect, energy is

15     being produced at the hydro-electric or thermal-electric power-plants and

16     then through the transmission systems and transmission stations, it would

17     be transmitted throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina and then was being

18     distributed through the transformer stations to their end users.  So this

19     organization or this structure had multiple links, it has alternate

20     routes, and also is linked to neighbouring republics as well as

21     neighbouring states.

22        Q.   All right.

23        A.   It is a unified European system, it's part of the European grid.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, first things first.  You said that it would be

25     linked to its neighbouring countries or republics.  To what extent it was

Page 32515

 1     linked to Croatia?  And could you please explain that to us, especially

 2     from the -- in and around the Mostar area, Herzegovina, that part.

 3        A.   Well, it was linked in several ways.  The actual structure was

 4     technically connected with the transmission -- power transmission lines

 5     at different levels.  Mostar had a transmission -- a transformer station

 6     which was a very important one and a very rare one which can take the

 7     power of 400 kilovolts.  It was very important because it had links to

 8     Bosnia via Sarajevo and then also through Bosnia with other eastern

 9     republics, and then with Croatia there was a -- also a number of

10     transmission, power transmission lines.  There were also -- there were

11     also lower-voltage transmission lines and both of them were being used.

12             There is also a joint interest of the power manufacturing

13     industry between, let's say, Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia.  For example,

14     if there is a power-plant on the river Drina, it would deliver power to

15     Bosnia and Serbia, so that would be their mutual interest.  For example,

16     if there was a power-plant on the river Cetina near Omis, it would be

17     using the reservoir from the area of Bosnia

18     in the Tomislavgrad and Livno municipalities.  Also the power-plant Plat

19     near Dubrovnik would use water from the Trebinje and Bileca areas which

20     were in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21             As far as I know, Croatian power -- the Croatian power industry

22     invested in thermo-electricity plants in Tuzla and some other places in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So there were multiple interests in this sense, but

24     in any case the systems were technically connected in order to be able to

25     use the energy available in a synergistic manner in order that we could

Page 32516

 1     help each other if necessary.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, was the system in any way damaged during the war

 3     in 1992 in Mostar; and if so, to what extent?

 4        A.   The system was vulnerable in two ways.  For example, the

 5     transmission stations, not only the actual stations but the component

 6     parts that make it run were -- also sub-stations, et cetera, were

 7     attacked and destroyed, several transformer stations around Mostar were

 8     destroyed.  The other element are power transmission lines which cover

 9     large territories, they're usually in inaccessible areas, they go over

10     hills where there are no paths.  And because of some malfunction or

11     because they were destroyed, they were put out of operation and it was

12     difficult to get to them to be able to repair them.  So at one point in

13     time Mostar had a shortage of electricity, they had less available than

14     the city needed.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:

18        Q.   What about the linkage between Mostar and Sarajevo, was there --

19     did there ever come a time when there was a break in that linkage?

20        A.   It was cut.  I cannot say whether it was -- the connection was

21     broken because it was due to a malfunction or because it was cut off.  We

22     had a shortage of electricity because the area of Herzegovina only had

23     one power-plant that was operating and that could have been used to

24     provide electricity, that is the Capljina plant which -- it's a

25     hydro-electric power-plant which depended on water and it depended on the

Page 32517

 1     weather conditions.  So this water was under the control of the Serb

 2     forces at that time, and that whole region was not properly supplied with

 3     electricity.  The output was very low, and if there were moments when

 4     there was an abundance of water then the electricity supply would be much

 5     better.

 6        Q.   All right.  That will do for now as far as the general questions

 7     on electricity, and unless there are any questions I'm going to go right

 8     into the documents.

 9             Okay.  If we could -- we'll start at the beginning of your binder

10     and I'm going to be going through the first batch, the first chapter

11     deals primarily with events that occurred when you were with the

12     special-purpose council.  And we'll move through the first few documents

13     rather quickly.  The first document is P 00190, we see it's dated 7 May

14     1992, and we see at the very -- under number 1:  "I hereby appoint the

15     special-purpose council of the Mostar municipal staff ..."

16             And we see your name, number 4, Ilija Kozulj, that's you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   All right.  And of course if we go under number 2, 2(a), we see

19     the list of activities, but you did discuss to us what the activities

20     that you were involved in.  Before leaving this document if you could

21     please tell us to your understanding the Mostar municipal staff at that

22     point in time, what is it being referred to, a civil organ or a military

23     organ?

24        A.   I think that it was a military organ at the time.

25        Q.   All right.  If we go to the next document, 1D 02716, and this is

Page 32518

 1     dated 9 May 1992, we see that this is a certificate.  You do see your

 2     name, do you not, sir, on the very first line?

 3        A.   I do.  I do.

 4        Q.   And it says that you are there to assist, you can move around for

 5     the purposes of establishing and maintaining the communication system.

 6             If we look at who signed this document, it says:  "Head of

 7     communications, captain first class," and I believe it says Jure Zadro;

 8     is that correct?

 9        A.   Jure Zadro, yes, the late Jure Zadro.

10        Q.   All right.  And with this certificate I take it you were able to

11     go about your business to some extent for the special-purpose council,

12     that is?

13        A.   Yes, I was in a way invited to a meeting there and I was asked to

14     help to resolve these matters and I accepted that, and then he gave me

15     this.

16        Q.   All right.  P 00209, this is six days later, this is dated 15 May

17     1992.  We see at the very top of the page there is a reference to PTT in

18     regards to everything else that's either malfunctioning or has been

19     damaged.  But most importantly for us is if we look at the section where

20     it says:  "Order," and the order -- we've seen this document before.  1

21     disbands the Crisis Staff, and it then says that the municipal -- the

22     Mostar municipal staff will form a civilian wartime government.  And then

23     number 3, which is what we're mostly interested in, it says:  "Until the

24     government referred to in paragraph 2 of this order is formed, The

25     Special-purpose Council of the Mostar municipality staff of the Croatian

Page 32519

 1     Defence Council shall administer the entire functioning of the city and

 2     care for its citizens."

 3             Now -- and it's signed by president of the Mostar municipal

 4     staff, Jadran Topic.  My first question is:  Were you aware of this

 5     particular order at the time?

 6        A.   I was aware of it.  We didn't read it, but I was familiar with

 7     it.  I knew that there was such an order.

 8        Q.   All right.  And how did you understand this order when it says

 9     that the special-purpose council, of which you were one of I believe 12

10     or 13 members, were to administer the entire functioning of the city and

11     care for its citizens?  How did you understand that?

12        A.   I understood that to mean -- well, first of all I think that it

13     wasn't realistic for us to take care of all the civilian matters of the

14     town.  I think that we didn't have the means or the staff at our disposal

15     for that, but I do think that we could have - and that is what we did,

16     and that was to discuss how the civilian affairs in town should be

17     organized and we proposed how this should be done.  So from that aspect,

18     that is how I understood this assignment.  I am conveying this to you and

19     then it's up to you to suggest or to propose how this should be done.

20        Q.   All right.  If we go now to 1D 02743, and -- okay.  Have you seen

21     this document before, sir?

22        A.   I think they didn't discuss this document --

23        Q.   Excuse me --

24        A.   I cannot be sure that I did see it --

25        Q.   One step at a time.  If we can go step by step.

Page 32520

 1        A.   Very well, very well.

 2        Q.   Do you recall seeing this document before?

 3        A.   I cannot remember clearly.

 4        Q.   All right.  If we look at the very top it says:  "Special Purpose

 5     Council of the Municipal Staff of HVO Mostar at the sessions held on 15th

 6     and 19th May, 1992 ..." and then it goes on.  And then on the third

 7     paragraph it talks about:  "Apart from this task, it is necessary to

 8     redefine the structure and competencies of the Crisis Staff (former

 9     name), which would consolidate and manage the town in all aspects, and

10     substitute in war conditions, the democratically elected civilian

11     governing bodies."

12             All right.  Now, in coming here today have you had a chance to

13     look at this document; and if so, would you please explain to us what you

14     understand this document purports to be?

15        A.   I said that I'm not sure if I've seen this document or not, but I

16     am sure that I participated in meetings and in conversations about how to

17     organize this.  I don't know who drafted the document.  I didn't.

18     Second, according to my understanding, this decision constitutes a

19     proposal how to organize the civilian authority in the town of Mostar in

20     the then-prevailing conditions so that most of these sectors are a part

21     of the town of business and the matters that the town authorities deal

22     with.  Some of these sections perhaps exceed that level, but -- in my

23     view, but there was no other option, I'm thinking of item 3.  I think

24     this is a matter for the prosecutor's office or courts.  This is

25     something that was usually dealt with at a higher level.

Page 32521

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, you said decision -- this is not a decision,

 2     this is actually --

 3        A.   This is just a draft.  I made a mistake.  It's just a plain

 4     draft.  It's not signed.  It's just thoughts on paper.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, if we go on to the next document, 1D 02743 --

 6     I'm sorry, to the next document which is P 00219, my apologies, we see

 7     now this is 21 May 1992, this would have been a couple of days at least

 8     from the last meeting which was on the 19th of May, as reflected in the

 9     earlier document.  Here now we see a decision by Jadran Topic, and of

10     course here it appears that he's establishing the Croatian Defence

11     Council of Mostar municipality and he lists the various positions.

12             Having looked at this decision and having looked at the previous

13     document, do you see any similarities?

14        A.   Yes, I can say that.

15        Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Jadran Topic used the proposal by -- that

16     was drafted by the special-purpose council in drafting this particular

17     decision?

18        A.   I believe so, yes.  I'm convinced that this was used or at least

19     was used or at least was something that was consulted on.

20        Q.   All right.  And when we look at this particular decision,

21     assuming that you are competent based on having grown up in the system

22     and having worked in the system, can you please tell us whether the

23     formation of the government, as is reflected in this decision, P 00219,

24     were there any similarities with the previous system that had existed,

25     that is, prior to the war.

Page 32522

 1        A.   It does, almost entirely.  It does reflect that, yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  If we look at the next document P 002 --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  The next

 4     document will be after the break.  It's time for a 20-minute break.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing's resumed.  My

 8     fellow Judge is going to say something.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm truly sorry that I have interfered with your

10     course because I understand your concern.  I was not aware of it.  I

11     invite you, if you have the feeling that I'm going in that direction

12     again to interrupt me and say, Just hold it, I'm going into all that, and

13     I will accept that.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  It is I who should be apologising, Judge Trechsel.

15     I think I was a little exuberant in my response.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  You have been worse at other times.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm still working on that, Judge Trechsel.

18        Q.   P 00221, P 00221, here we see -- this was a decision based on the

19     earlier decision that we saw, and these were the actual individuals that

20     were appointed, and as I understand it from your previous answers that

21     you were not participating in a formal capacity with this civilian

22     government; correct?

23        A.   No, I did not.

24        Q.   All right.  All right.  Now we go to the next document, 1D 02390,

25     and this is a report that was authored by Dr. Jadranko Prlic.  It is

Page 32523

 1     dated 4 June 1992.  It's -- and you see that he signed it as general

 2     manager of Apro Corporation Mostar.  First of all, did you know at the

 3     time Dr. Jadranko Prlic, did you know him?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Second, did you know this Apro Corporation Mostar?

 6        A.   Yes, of course.

 7        Q.   And could you please very briefly tell us about this corporation.

 8        A.   It was a large corporation that mostly was involved in agri

 9     business.  It had vineyards and orchards, it had several wine production

10     plants, and it also manufactured various components for food industry,

11     for juices and so on.  And it was a large enterprise headquartered in

12     Mostar.

13        Q.   Do you know approximately how many people were employed in this

14     corporation and its various holdings?

15        A.   Well, I can't be sure but a couple of thousand people, but the

16     number of employees would go up with seasonal workers when there was farm

17     work to be done.

18        Q.   All right.  Now, this is a report, and it's directed to the

19     department for the economy, again dated 4 June 1992.  Do you know whether

20     at that time other such corporations had to make similar reports to the

21     department of economy, keeping in mind the events that were unfolding at

22     the time?

23        A.   Well, usually such reports were sent.  I don't know whether they

24     were under an obligation to do so, but that's what they did because the

25     head of the department wanted to be made -- informed about the situation

Page 32524

 1     in the economy.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note:  We did not catch the

 3     name of the head of the department.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, who was the head of the department at the time,

 6     did you know, the department of economy?

 7        A.   Mr. Senad Kazalic was the head of the department for economy, he

 8     was also the chairman of the special-purpose council.

 9        Q.   And were -- at that period of time, in light of the

10     circumstances, given that you had a Crisis Staff before and now you have

11     the new situation involving -- were local corporations, companies,

12     obligated to assist in providing various resources, human or otherwise,

13     towards the war effort?

14        A.   Absolutely, yes, because first of all, all the companies got the

15     directors appointed.  If the previous directors were now absent, new

16     directors had to be appointed.  They usually wanted to get a certain

17     number of employees in order to be able to perform their tasks with the

18     minimum number of staff, and that is why they wanted to get the lists of

19     people under the work obligation.  And of course they had to place

20     themselves at the disposal for defence preparations.  This is how things

21     were in our country before this war.

22        Q.   All right.  If we look at the next document, 1D 02715, this is

23     dated 10 June 1992 and we see that it's by Commander Major Jasmin

24     Jaganjac, and it's the Croatian Defence Council, municipal staff Mostar.

25     And it says here that you as a member of the special-purpose council are

Page 32525

 1     empowered to carry out necessary activities on behalf of this staff.  Can

 2     you explain this a little bit?  Obviously you must have known who

 3     Mr. Jaganjac was?

 4        A.   Jaganjac was the military commander in Mostar, and he was also a

 5     member of the Mostar government, if I can call it that, the

 6     administration in Mostar.  This order merely served to reinforce the

 7     previous one and it brought all these things closer to the obligations

 8     towards the military.

 9        Q.   All right.  1D 02714, this document is dated 20 June 1992, 1D

10     02714.  This is an order and this is signed by the head of the council,

11     Dinko Slezak, and here we see your name and you are being tasked, as it

12     were, to draft a programme for the work, planning, recovery, and

13     development of telecommunication systems and radio and TV network for

14     Mostar and surrounding area.  Do you know Mr. Slezak?

15        A.   I do know Mr. Slezak.

16        Q.   And based on this particular order, did you engage in any

17     activities that were being suggested, that is, in drafting a programme

18     for the work and planning, recovery, and development of telecommunication

19     systems in and around the Mostar area?

20        A.   Yes, together with the gentlemen who are mentioned here, Enes

21     Santic worked in the Mostar post and telecommunications, and Mr. Zvonimir

22     Trlen [phoen], it says Enes here but his name is actually Zvonimir, he

23     was the director of UNIS telecom which manufactured telecommunications

24     equipment, and Mr. Jasenko Lasta, he was an engineer, he worked in radio

25     and television.

Page 32526

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   I coordinated the work on this project.

 3        Q.   All right.  Would it be fair to say that you were probably the

 4     most experienced of -- among the group?

 5        A.   Yes, given my age.

 6        Q.   All right.  Okay.  You're being very modest.  And Mr. Enes

 7     himself, what nationality is this gentleman, Enes Santic?

 8        A.   He's a Muslim.

 9        Q.   All right.

10        A.   Well, it's Bosniak in the current parlance.

11        Q.   Right.  And we mean no disrespect by that.  1D 02669, 1D 02669,

12     this is dated 26 August 1992.  We see this is a list of HVO municipal

13     staff Mostar wounded, and if we go to the bottom of the page we see your

14     name, it says:  "The representatives of HVO Municipal Staff Mostar who

15     visited the above listed wounded soldiers ..."

16             And we see your name, Ilija Kozulj, Slavko Puljic, Jure Maric,

17     Mr. Ivan Udovicic, Drazen, Vucina, and Franjo Petric.  And then if we go

18     to the second page in English or if we continue on it says:  "On that

19     occasion the wounded soldiers were given radio sets ..." and so on and so

20     forth.  Do you recall this particular visit?  Could you please tell us a

21     little bit about it, especially with respect to the radio sets?

22        A.   Yes, I remember this visit.  In cooperation with the UNIS

23     companies, I obtained a certain number of small transistor radios and we

24     decided that the best thing to do would be to give them to the soldiers

25     hospitalised in Split because that would make it possible for them to

Page 32527

 1     keep in touch with the current events, and that's what we did.  We

 2     distributed those transistor radios to the soldiers who were there -- at

 3     least that's what we know.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now, we've gone over this list together and I'm going

 5     to read out some names and I'm going to ask you to confirm this.  Of the

 6     list of 33 do we see names that are -- of Muslims?

 7        A.   Yes, there are.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   Quite a few of them in fact.

10        Q.   And if I were to go down the list, number 2, number 4, number 5,

11     number 9, number 10, number 11, number 22, 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, to your

12     knowledge, knowing the names in that region, do these appear to be Muslim

13     members of the HVO municipal staff Mostar, at least as of 26th August

14     1992?

15        A.   Yes, those are Muslim members of the Mostar HVO.

16        Q.   All right.  If we go to the next document, 1D 02666 dated 27

17     August 1992, we see there is an order, we see it's to you, and you're

18     being asked to organize parts of UNIS and it's head -- it's signed by the

19     head of department of economy Vlado Soljic.  I'm doing the best I can

20     with these names.  Now, you obviously know Mr. Soljic, right?

21        A.   Yes, I do know Mr. Soljic.

22        Q.   All right.  And of course -- before we go through the various

23     parts of UNIS, if we look at the very first part, very first paragraph,

24     it says here:  "On the basis of the decision of Herceg-Bosna HVO to form

25     entities - out of all segments of business systems, whose headquarters

Page 32528

 1     were in Sarajevo and other parts of the Republic of BiH, as well as in

 2     other republics - which will function independently, until the end of the

 3     war and the establishment of the democratic government, in the entire

 4     territory of the Republic of BiH ..."

 5             And then we see this.  Based on just this first paragraph that I

 6     read, what was your understanding of what you were being asked to do?

 7        A.   As a member of the UNIS board of directors, I was in charge of

 8     some of the companies that are mentioned here, not all of them, but here

 9     I was asked to make sure that these companies could be reorganized

10     temporarily until it was possible for them to link up with their head

11     office in Sarajevo.

12        Q.   All right.  And more or less these companies, what are they

13     involved in?  We can see the first one, it's electronics.  One is a joint

14     investment, a telecommunications joint investment, what does UNIS TBM,

15     what is that about, the joint-stock company?

16        A.   It manufactured office equipment, mostly typewriters and cash

17     registers.

18        Q.   And what about UNIS Unidata?

19        A.   UNIS Unidata was a company that did information technology.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, keeping this order in mind let's look at the

21     next document, 1D 02664 -- I'm sorry, 2665, I apologise, because at the

22     bottom we see your name and it is addressed to a Mr. Faruk

23     Smailbegovic - I think I got that right - do you see that?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Did you know the gentleman?

Page 32529

 1        A.   Yes, I do.  While I was a member of the board of directors in

 2     UNIS in charge of electronics, office equipment, and telecommunications,

 3     he was in charge of the companies that manufactured cars and car parts

 4     within the UNIS group.  At this time I think he was the president of

 5     UNIS, and he was also a minister in the BH government and his portfolio

 6     was economy.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, we do not see a date on this document, but if we

 8     look at -- the previous document was dated 27 August 1992.  You were told

 9     to organize certain -- to reorganize certain parts of UNIS, and if we

10     look at --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, in the B/C/S

12     document there is a date, 27th of August, so it seems -- no, you're

13     right, that's the next document.  You're right.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:

15        Q.   If we look at the one that's undated, that is, 1D 02665, and we

16     look at the letter, at the risk of asking a leading question, would it

17     appear that this letter is in connection with the previous document,

18     1D 02666?

19        A.   Well, it is connected with it because it deals with the same

20     issue, and I think that this letter was sent in September 1992.

21        Q.   Right.  And in this you do point out that HVO Mostar has

22     confirmed certain appointments, a Mr. Emir Peco, a Veid Hakalo.  These

23     two individuals, are they Muslim or are they Croat?

24        A.   They are Muslims.

25        Q.   And before we leave this document, did Mr. Faruk Smailbegovic

Page 32530

 1     ever get back to you on this particular correspondence?

 2        A.   Unfortunately, he did not.

 3        Q.   All right.  When was the next time -- before I -- before the next

 4     question let me ask this:  How would this letter have gone to the

 5     gentleman?  We know that telecommunications were out.  Was the postal

 6     service working?  In other words, could you put a stamp and go to the

 7     mailbox and mail it off?

 8        A.   No, no.  It was not possible to do so.  I made use of some kind

 9     of humanitarian relief.  A truck was heading to Sarajevo carrying

10     humanitarian aid, and I asked them to take some gifts to some people in

11     Sarajevo and also this letter to Mr. Smailbegovic.

12        Q.   All right.  When was the next time that you met this gentleman?

13        A.   At one point the delegation of the Republic of Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina government visited Mostar and we held talks with them, and

15     Mr. Smailbegovic was in that delegation.  I think it was in 1994 if I

16     remember correctly.

17        Q.   All right.

18        A.   Early 1994.

19        Q.   And I think we're going to get to that topic later on.  If we go

20     to the next document --

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I?

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  A short question regarding the dates, Witness.

24     You on 27th of August are ordered to file a report within 30 days; is

25     that correct?  That's the document 2666.

Page 32531

 1             THE WITNESS:  [In English] Yes.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Now you sent an analogous, or next step as it

 3     were, order to Sarajevo and you set also a time-limit of 30 days; right?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I don't quite understand

 5     your question.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  In the letter we are dealing with now, 2665,

 7     addressed to Mr. Faruk Smailbegovic, you also tell him he was to

 8     report -- or I thought I had seen that he was to report within 30 days

 9     but maybe that's an error of mine.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  It is an error.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  It is an error.  I deeply apologise.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see that.  At any rate, I

13     can't see that.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:

15        Q.   It would have been rather presumptuous to order the president,

16     your supervisor.  But this letter, 1D 02665, if we look at the

17     second-to-last paragraph where you say:  "You are kindly requested to

18     take note of the above stated and make sure that it is accepted from the

19     UNIS level and that no actions are taken which may adversely influence

20     the functioning of the companies and my work ..."

21             And then you say rather directly:  "Quite contrary, I expect that

22     your work and influence will be positive and useful.  I especially hope

23     that there will be soon a possibility to communicate in an appropriate

24     way."

25             Perhaps in light of the question from Judge Trechsel you can

Page 32532

 1     explain to us what exactly you were asking Mr. Smailbegovic to do.

 2        A.   First of all, I wanted to inform him about the situation.

 3     Secondly, in light of the situation that we faced, we wanted him to

 4     accept it and not to cause any problems because I thought it was the

 5     decent thing to do.  Third, I asked him to assist, to facilitate the work

 6     of those companies if possible.  And finally, I expressed my wish that

 7     our communication would proceed along better lines in the future.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9        A.   I think that's ...

10        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

11             If we go to the next document, 1D 02667, here we have a document

12     from the director Nenad Dasovic.  This is for permission to enter a UNIS

13     location for employees of TAMP company.  And we see the list of names.

14     It's dated 15 October 1992.  Are you familiar with TAMP company?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   All right.  If we look at the names now, again this is 15 October

17     1992, and I'm going to ask you whether you would agree with me numbers 3,

18     4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 12 are Muslim names.

19        A.   Those are indeed Muslim names.

20        Q.   Okay.  And this particular company, what did it do, do you know?

21        A.   This company manufactured various metal and plastic parts.

22        Q.   All right.  Next document, just so we -- moving right along

23     time-wise on this, 1D 02396, dated 22 October 1992, this is a special

24     permit and we see that it's for Mr. Camil Salahovic, and he's being

25     granted freedom of movement in Mostar municipality during the curfew.

Page 32533

 1     Now, did you know Mr. Salahovic?

 2        A.   Yes, I do, and I knew him at the time.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Yeah, right.  And he is a lawyer, right?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, he is.

 5        Q.   And he's also Muslim?

 6        A.   Yes, he's a Muslim.

 7        Q.   And at that time as I understand it he was also involved in SDA

 8     politics, was he not?

 9        A.   As far as I know, he was involved in SDA politics, but he was

10     also a member of the special-purpose council.

11        Q.   And I take it in order -- could you move about Mostar after

12     curfew -- during the -- after curfew?

13        A.   I couldn't move about --

14        Q.   Without a special permit?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  And --

17        A.   I couldn't move about without a special permit.

18        Q.   Okay.  Why was it necessary to have a special permit at the time

19     to move about during the curfew, do you know?  What were the conditions

20     in Mostar, in other words?

21        A.   Well, the conditions were -- well, there was shelling, so there

22     was no pressing need for anyone to move about the town apart from

23     military personnel who were going about their business.  So there was no

24     need for people to walk about and to cause all kinds of problems.  If

25     there were people moving about without any obvious need, then it might be

Page 32534

 1     that they had some nefarious purpose.  So movement was restricted during

 2     the curfew.

 3        Q.   All right.  Next document -- next three documents go to

 4     appointments, 1D 00665, this is a decision to appoint the temporary

 5     director of UNIS UTP, and it's Emir Peco who is a mechanical engineer.

 6     You know this gentleman, do you not?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   And we can see this is dated 23 November 1992, and this gentleman

 9     was a Muslim, was he not or is?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   1D 00690, this is dated 6 January 1993.  This is to appoint an

12     interim director for UNIS Racunari company and this is for Ibrahim

13     Mutisevic.  First of all, do you know this gentleman?

14        A.   Mutisevic.  Yes, I do.

15        Q.   And he's a Muslim, is he not?

16        A.   He's a Muslim.

17        Q.   And can you please tell us, what does this particular company do?

18        A.   This company manufactured computer equipment, computers.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   And also provided computer-related services.

21        Q.   All right.  And the last document in this area is 1D 00692.  This

22     is a decision to appoint an acting director UNIS UTT, and I believe it

23     should be UTP.  This is Mirsad Derviskadic.

24        A.   Derviskadic.

25        Q.   And that should be UNIS UTP, correct, not UTT?

Page 32535

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What does this company do?

 3        A.   This company manufactured special electrodes in cooperation with

 4     the German company UTP.  That is why it was called UTP because it was a

 5     joint venture.  Germans invested some money into this company.

 6        Q.   All right.  If we go on now to the next chapter and this deals

 7     with public enterprises and I'm not going to ask you to describe the

 8     difference between a public enterprise and a socially owned enterprise,

 9     although if the Bench has any questions on that I'm sure they'll ask you.

10     If we look at the first document, 1D 02754, 1D 02754, this is a Law on

11     Financing the Public Services.  This is dated 1990.  Were you aware of

12     this particular law and how it functioned?

13        A.   Well, I do know the basic things.

14        Q.   All right.  And if we look at Article 3, for instance, it talks

15     about:  "The offices responsible for funding public services pursuant to

16     this law are:  The Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina ..." it then goes on, "assemblies of socio-political

18     communities ..."

19             And so and so forth.  Briefly, what is a socio-political

20     community?

21        A.   Socio-political communities are actually a unit of government in

22     a certain area, local communes, or the republic.

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:

Page 32536

 1        Q.   If we look at Article 4 it says municipal public services -- I'm

 2     going to have to ask you to repeat your answer.  I don't know whether

 3     this was translated or not, I wasn't paying attention to be honest, to

 4     the question about what is a socio-political community.  So could you

 5     please tell us -- give us that definition again so we can get it clearly

 6     on the record.  And I'm going to ask you to speak a little slower, and my

 7     apologies for speaking so fast and rushing you.

 8        A.   Socio-political communities cover a certain territory.  A local

 9     commune is a basic socio-political community.  It does not have any power

10     or attributes of power, but it is there to communicate with the people.

11     And then the next level up is the municipality.  It cannot exercise -- it

12     does exercise power --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then the Republic of Bosnia

15     and Herzegovina at the time was the highest level in accordance with this

16     law.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:

18        Q.   All right.  Now, if I could focus your attention on Article 4,

19     just very briefly, it says:  "Municipal public services funded pursuant

20     to this law include," and then we see a list of services, and I just want

21     to focus everyone's attention, and especially yours where it says:

22     "Municipal obligations created by the establishment of public

23     enterprises."

24             What does that mean for those of us who are not familiar with the

25     system there?

Page 32537

 1        A.   The municipality is duty-bound to found public companies for the

 2     needs of its citizens.  It owns those enterprises, manages them, and

 3     determines how they will do their business and it establishes the prices

 4     at which they will work if they provide services that they charge for,

 5     and then they -- it also helps them in case they need investment

 6     assistance or if they sustain losses.

 7        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  We'll go on to the next document

 8     1D 00568, this is dated 19 June 1992.  This is a decision governing the

 9     functioning of the town utility services in conditions of war, and I want

10     to focus your attention to Article 2 because we see -- and it lists three

11     particular services:  Electrical power-supply; water-supply, and waste

12     water disposal; and collection and disposal of garbage, undertaker

13     services, town dog pound, and other utility services.  Are you familiar

14     with this particular decision, sir?

15        A.   I am.

16        Q.   If we go to Article 4, maybe you could help us out a little bit.

17     Article 4 says that:  "Elektrohercegovina and the Elektroprijenos plant

18     in Mostar shall operate as regional enterprises, I underscore regional

19     enterprises.  Could you help us how the, what is meant by regional

20     enterprises?

21        A.   Elektrohercegovina with headquarters in Mostar is a company that

22     manufactured and distributed electricity in the entire territory from

23     Livno to Trebinje and Konjic, so it was like the PTT company.  The

24     Elektroprijenos company was a separate company with headquarters in

25     Sarajevo which distributed -- or actually brought the electricity from

Page 32538

 1     the manufacturer via the transformer stations to the end users using

 2     transformer stations and high-voltage and low-voltage transmission power

 3     lines for that purpose.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:

 7        Q.   One last point, on Article 14, help us out here a little bit, if

 8     we look at the third paragraph under Article 14, and of course you have

 9     to look at the previous two paragraphs but I'm focusing on the last part,

10     which says:  "The employees on stand-by shall enjoy the same rights as

11     all other workers on stand-by in the municipality of Mostar."

12             What are they talking about, stand-by, what does that mean?

13        A.   Sometimes because of the lower volume or reduced volume of work,

14     not all personnel is required to be at work the whole time.  So a number

15     is at work and do have work duty in these conditions, while others are at

16     home and are waiting to be summoned in case there is a need.

17        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone, please.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:

20        Q.   When it says that they have the same rights as all other workers

21     on stand-by in the municipality of Mostar, what does that mean?

22        A.   In peacetime when a company sends its workers home on stand-by,

23     then the question of compensation has to be resolved during that period.

24     During wartime there was solidarity and the attempt was made to give

25     equal rights for compensation to all.

Page 32539

 1        Q.   All right.

 2        A.   All those on stand-by of course, all those on stand-by have equal

 3     rights.

 4        Q.   All right.  1D 00569, this is a decision on transport,

 5     telecommunication, and information.  And it's dated 19 June 1992.  It

 6     says under Article 1:  "In order to ensure the maintenance and

 7     functioning of the transport, telecommunication, and information system

 8     under wartime conditions ..."

 9             And it goes on.  And Article 2:  "Under this decision, transport,

10     telecommunications, and information system shall encompass the

11     following ..."

12             And we see a list including mail services, telecommunications

13     services, transport on rivers, and so on.  Were you familiar with this

14     particular decision; and if so, why was it necessary to pass this

15     decision?  One would expect that life could go on without such decisions

16     being passed.

17        A.   At the time it was essential to organize life in some fashion.

18     In Mostar there were parts of different companies or entire companies

19     covering these particular sectors.  There had to be some decision to

20     place all those people in organizations under supervision and to issue

21     assignments to them so that they could work towards the defence of the

22     town.

23        Q.   All right.  If we go to Article 13 particularly, it talks about

24     telecommunications.  And I want to focus your attention, I'll read this

25     as best I can.

Page 32540

 1             "The Postanski Promet Herceg-Bosna enterprise of Mostar shall

 2     organize telecommunications in," this is the part that we're interested

 3     in, "Jablanica, Konjic, Prozor, Posusje, Siroki Brijeg, Citluk, Ljubuski,

 4     Grude, Neum, Capljina, Stolac, Ljubinje, Nevesinje, and Ravno ..."

 5             Could you please explain to us why these particular areas -- can

 6     you interpret this for us and why not say other areas as well, Tuzla -- I

 7     don't even see Mostar here.

 8        A.   Mostar is implied most probably.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   This decision in my view is not the best drafted decision, but it

11     was necessary to say that the company with headquarters in Mostar, and

12     before the war it was the PTT enterprise, would be obliged to provide

13     these services in the areas.  It couldn't provide services in its earlier

14     area before but only in the free area, free territory.  So the

15     municipalities or parts of municipalities that were free at that time are

16     referred to here.

17        Q.   All right.  If we go to the next document, 1D 00872, 1D 00872,

18     this is a decision on temporary registration and business activities of

19     the Tuzla public railway transport enterprise.  And of course I'm showing

20     you this because we want to make some comparisons, and we see that

21     Article 1, the Tuzla Public Railway Transport Enterprise, with its head

22     office in Tuzla, shall organize, and so on.

23             Article 2 says:  "The court of registration in Tuzla is hereby

24     instructed to temporarily register the entity referenced in Article

25     1 ..." and so on.

Page 32541

 1             Have you had a chance to look at this decision and can you please

 2     comment on this?  And I'm specifically interested to know whether Tuzla

 3     prior to the war, Tuzla municipality, could have passed this sort of a

 4     decision, was it competent?

 5        A.   Before the war the municipality of Tuzla was not authorised to

 6     make such decisions.  These are jobs regulated by republican law.

 7     However, in war conditions they had to organize railway traffic in some

 8     manner, and this was one of the ways to do that, the only way.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, having looked at the previous documents on

10     organizing or reorganizing in the Mostar area and we look at this

11     particular decision, is Tuzla doing anything different as reflected in

12     this document than, say, Mostar?

13        A.   This is the same thing.  The text is different but it's the same

14     thing.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's look at --

16        A.   It's formulated differently.

17        Q.   All right.  If we look at 1D 00350, this now is dated 4 May 1993.

18     It's -- we can see that this was passed by the War Presidency of

19     Jablanica.  If we look at the very end of the document we see the name of

20     Safet Cibo, I believe he's a doctor -- I believe he's a medical doctor in

21     fact, we see this decision.  Have you had a chance to look at this

22     particular decision?

23        A.   Well, I looked at it when I received it.  Now I can look at it.

24        Q.   All right.  And --

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, perhaps, Witness, you could tell us

Page 32542

 1     when you received it.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lawyer showed it to me.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:

 4        Q.   Let me -- this document was shown to you for the purposes of

 5     comparing this document with what's happening in Mostar; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, of course.

 7        Q.   You had no contact with Mr. Cibo at the time?

 8        A.   No, no, no.  I have no interpretation.

 9        Q.   All right.  Based on your background and experience -- based on

10     your background and experience, because it does talk about energy system,

11     it talks about Elketrojablanica, do you think you're competent to discuss

12     the contents in this document in relation to the previous document shown

13     to you say in regards to Mostar?

14        A.   I don't know what the question would be but, yes, I can talk

15     about things like this.  If -- if ...

16        Q.   All right.

17        A.   Here I can see that this is the same decision as the one in Tuzla

18     and the one in Mostar.  It's phrased differently, the text is different,

19     but it boils down to the president of the War Presidency of Jablanica

20     decides that parts of former companies from the electrical utility

21     company and the hydro-electrical plant on the Neretva and the

22     Elektroprijenos company headquartered in Sarajevo should unite or merge

23     into one company because there was no other way to organize the

24     electricity power-supply unless all the elements were brought together

25     under one umbrella.

Page 32543

 1        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at this a little closer.  Now, we

 2     know that Cibo -- we can see that he's the president of both Jablanica

 3     and Konjic, and if we look at Article 7, for instance, it says:  "As a

 4     result of this decision, the authorities of the current electric

 5     power-plants and of their managers over the electric power-plant

 6     buildings in the area of Jablanica and Konjic municipalities shall cease

 7     to exist, with the exception of Elektroprivreda BiH, Sarajevo enterprise,

 8     which is assumed to retain responsibility for the exploitation and the

 9     coordination of the work of the facilities."

10             My question is:  You having worked in this area and knowing how

11     things have worked in BiH, prior to the war or should I say if there were

12     no warlike conditions and there was no War Presidency, assuming Dr. Cibo

13     was a duly elected president of Jablanica or Konjic municipality - and I

14     say that for a purpose because he was appointed by Izetbegovic - but

15     assuming that this was a knock-on situation would the president of the

16     municipality have the capacity, the ability, the right to issue such a

17     decision, keeping in mind Article 7?

18        A.   No, no way.  The president of the municipality could not do that

19     because this would have been regulated by a law of the Republic of Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina, but in wartime conditions one does what one has to do.

21        Q.   All right.  Let's look at another chapter.  Now I'm going to deal

22     a little bit with electrical power, and we're going to go to 1D 00566.

23     This is dated 19 June 1992.  This is a decision to establish a

24     provisional list of priorities for electric power-supply, and we see the

25     various places starting off with the hospital, moving down we see the

Page 32544

 1     post office, and so on.  And could you please tell us why was it

 2     necessary at that time to your understanding to have such a priority

 3     list?

 4        A.   Because of the destruction caused by war and the inaccessibility

 5     of some facilities, Mostar suffered the shortage of power in some parts

 6     of the town, and that is why power cuts were put in place and power was

 7     supplied only to those who really needed it at times when there simply

 8     was not enough power.

 9        Q.   All right.  If we look at Roman numeral II it says:  "The

10     Elektrohercegovina, EP, electric power company, Mostar, shall be

11     responsible for the implementation of this decision."

12             Were you familiar with this particular company, sir?

13        A.   Yes, it's a company that was in generation -- power generation

14     and power distribution, and it covered the whole of Herzegovina,

15     delineated by Trebinje, Livno, and Konjic, and it was headquartered in

16     Mostar as I've already explained.

17        Q.   So this would be a regional company then?

18        A.   Yes, it was a regional company.

19        Q.   All right.  1D 00589, 3 July 1992, this is a decision on the

20     temporary delivery of electricity to the Republic of Croatia, and we're

21     going to park over here and discuss this a little bit.  We see from this

22     document that it says first of all:  "Since the Republic of Croatia has

23     repaired the power system of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and

24     because the Neretva River basin has been prepared and we can transfer and

25     distribute electricity ..." then if we go on obviously we see that this

Page 32545

 1     is a decision to deliver power to the Republic of Croatia.  Could you

 2     please explain to us what is happening in this decision, assuming that

 3     you're -- you have the necessary background knowledge and information to

 4     do so.

 5        A.   Well, I see that the question arises:  How is it possible to

 6     supply power to other parties if you don't have enough power in the town

 7     of Mostar itself, but you have to bear in mind that these are generation

 8     capacities, the hydro-electric power-plants, that are dependent on the

 9     amount of water in the rivers.  At times hydro-electric power-plants are

10     able to work at top capacity.  Sometimes they have to because of the

11     influx of water it would be a pity not to use all that water coming in,

12     whereas at times they cannot operate at all because there is simply not

13     enough water.  The situation with thermo-electric power-plants is

14     different, they provide a stable supply of electricity.  Now, the Mostar

15     region at that time had several hydro-electric power-plants.  At times it

16     had a surplus of power, and it is possible that some parts of the town,

17     because the transmission lines were low capacity, could not get enough

18     power despite the fact that there was enough power in the system because

19     the transformers were not -- did not have a high capacity.  And there was

20     a -- this need to deliver the surplus power elsewhere because at times

21     when there was not enough power in Herzegovina it had to be imported from

22     somewhere, and the only place where it could be imported from was

23     Dalmatia.  So you had two weak partners that had to help each other.

24     When one partner had a surplus of power, it delivered the power to the

25     other partner.  That's what it was.

Page 32546

 1        Q.   Okay.  And was that the case prior to the conflict, prior to the

 2     war?

 3        A.   Absolutely, yes, it was always the case.

 4        Q.   All right.  Unless there are any questions on this I'll move on

 5     to the next document, 1D 01804 [Realtime transcript read in error

 6     "01084"].  Now, we saw this document with our previous witness but again

 7     I want to show it to you.  This is dated 5 August 1992.  We've seen the

 8     gentleman's name, Vladimir Colic.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And of course he's talking about -- it's from the very first

11     paragraph.  We see:  "The decree of the Presidency of the HVO ...

12     determines among other things (the establishment of the Elektroprivreda

13     public enterprise of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna ..."

14             And then there is a list of reasons, justifications, but I'm most

15     interested in you commenting on this letter after looking at the very

16     last paragraph where he says:  "Lastly, it should be pointed out that the

17     observations about the real situation in BH, the identified tasks on

18     links power grid segments in the region of HZ BH and the fact that the

19     power grid of HZ will be connected to the entire power grid of RBH do not

20     prejudice any political solutions after the war and that all that is

21     being done is for the benefit of all citizens of the Croatian Community

22     of Herceg-Bosna and BH."

23             Now, first, I've shown you this document; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now --

Page 32547

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Before it disappears, it's purely technical, in

 2     the record it says 1D 01084 but it is 1D 01804.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:  Right.  1D 01804.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, are you --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   -- familiar with the events that are being described, especially

 7     at the very top of the page, by Mr. Soljic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And in your estimation the proposal that Mr. Soljic is making

10     through this letter, can you comment on that, keeping in mind the very

11     last paragraph that I read.

12        A.   Well, Mr. Soljic says that because of the situation it is

13     necessary to set up a public company, electric utility of the Croatian

14     Community of Herceg-Bosna, to organize life, and to ensure regular

15     supply -- regular power-supply, and he also gives some practical

16     conclusions as to how this should be done, saying that this does not

17     prejudice the final organization of the electric power sector, saying

18     that this would be set up at a later date once there is peace in Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina.

20        Q.   Well, does that make sense what he's saying?

21        A.   Of course it makes sense.  This means that now we are forced to

22     set up this public company and later on we will see how we will deal with

23     this issue.

24        Q.   All right.  Was Sarajevo in a position at that point in time,

25     given the conditions in Sarajevo and -- in and around it, that is, and

Page 32548

 1     the conditions in Mostar, was it possible for Sarajevo to have provided

 2     some alternative proposal, some alternative arrangement that would have

 3     benefitted each and all?

 4        A.   I don't think so.  I don't see a possibility for that.  Secondly,

 5     let us not forget that Elektrohecegovina, even before the war, was highly

 6     independent within the electric power system in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7     It enjoyed a high degree of independence.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Is there a question from the Bench?  Okay.

 9        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 00017, this is a

10     decision on the establishment of the public electricity supply

11     enterprise.  Okay.  This is dated -- as I understand it, it's from the

12     session of the 28th of August, 1992, and it's by Dr. Jadranko Prlic who

13     was serving as the president of the HVO HZ HB.  Can you please explain to

14     us why was it necessary for this particular decision to be passed.  How

15     do we account for this?

16        A.   It was necessary because we had a company, Elektrohecegovina, in

17     Mostar which was quite independent but the other aspect, the transmission

18     of power, the Elektroprijenos company, was headquartered in Sarajevo.

19     And it only had its plant there in that area, it was not independent at

20     all, autonomous at all.  It was necessary to merge all those companies

21     together into a single power utility, to merge them in order to be able

22     to control it and manage it and also assist it in meeting its function.

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:

Page 32549

 1        Q.   Go ahead.  Go ahead.

 2        A.   But I have to say here that in a way the Croatian Community of

 3     Herceg-Bosna included some other areas that were not in Herzegovina, some

 4     other parts of the company that were not in Herzegovina, such as Central

 5     Bosnia and Posavina, and somebody had to take care of them.  And this was

 6     all done by a single company in order to achieve the best results

 7     possible and to have cooperation.

 8        Q.   Okay.  All right.  When you said that it was necessary to merge,

 9     is that because the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna is trying to

10     absorb these competencies, take over, or was it due to the circumstances

11     as a result of the war conditions on the ground?  Which of the two?

12        A.   Well, I don't understand.  From whom?

13        Q.   I mean, there may be arguments being made that these were efforts

14     by -- hear me out, these were efforts made by the Croatian Community of

15     Herceg-Bosna to take over for the purposes of establishing itself as an

16     independent state, a state within a state.  And my question is:  Could it

17     be -- could this be interpreted for those reasons or was it necessary to

18     merge because of the conditions that were unfolding on the ground, the

19     war, the siege in Sarajevo?

20        A.   It was absolutely necessary to do that.  I don't know how many

21     times is it necessary to explain this.  You have segments of various

22     companies that are located in a certain territory.  This territory cannot

23     survive, cannot subsist, without power and you have to link up all those

24     elements.  The best way, indeed the only way, is to merge them into a

25     single organization.  And finally I have to say that every public company

Page 32550

 1     is a territorial organization that meets the needs of the people in a

 2     certain area, and in the final analysis it is the -- it is owned by the

 3     people in that area.  So when you say, Did you take over or did you seize

 4     it, you cannot do it because it belongs to the people living in that

 5     area.

 6        Q.   All right.  If we look at Article 2, the name of this is

 7     Elektroprivreda of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  What is the

 8     name -- first of all, does this company exist today; and if so, under

 9     what name?

10        A.   This company exists and it is still operating under the same

11     name.

12        Q.   Elektroprivreda of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

13        A.   That's correct, yes.

14        Q.   All right.  And if we look at Article 4 it says:  "The public

15     enterprise shall ensure ..." and one, two, three -- the fourth point it

16     says that "The system of electricity supply of Herceg-Bosna is

17     interlinked both within the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

18     outside the Republic."

19             Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   What is meant by that?

22        A.   That means that this company, for reasons that I've already

23     stated, must be linked up within Bosnia and Herzegovina wherever possible

24     and also with areas outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina wherever that is

25     feasible.  This is a requirement because of the technology used in power

Page 32551

 1     industry, and -- so this was done whenever it was possible, whenever it

 2     was feasible.  That's what it means.

 3        Q.   All right.  1D 00097, this is 8 September 1992, this is a

 4     decision on the approval of the enactments of HZ BH public electrical

 5     utility enterprise.  What is this about?  Why is this decision necessary

 6     in light of the previous decision that we looked at?

 7        A.   The company has to pass its statute that will form the basis for

 8     its operation; statute deals with a number of issues from the

 9     organization, the sphere of activity, the management, funding, and so on.

10     This statute has to be submitted by the company to the founder, in this

11     case the company was founded by the Government of the Croatian Community

12     of Herceg-Bosna.  This company had to submit its statute for approval.

13     Likewise, the prices, the rates, for the services are also approved by

14     the founder, in this case it was the Government of the Croatian Community

15     of Herceg-Bosna.  So this decision indicates that the Government of the

16     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna indeed adopted those two documents.

17        Q.   All right.  1D 02444, 1D 02444.  We saw an earlier document where

18     Mr. Topic --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Karnavas,

20     before you continue.  You said that you needed two hours.  You have

21     already used up two hours and 15 minutes.

22             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr.  President, I said -- first I have him down

23     for three hours.  I then indicated that I would try to do him in two

24     hours.  I don't know how I can be any more efficient.  I would have liked

25     to have done him in two hours, to finish this witness in two hours.  It

Page 32552

 1     looks like I might need an extra 30 minutes or whatever, but I certainly

 2     will be within the three-hour period.

 3             Secondly, if I may answer the issues that were brought up before

 4     the gentleman entered the courtroom, we do intend to provide you with a

 5     list, you and the other members of the Bench, as well as the

 6     Prosecution -- we did with our entire list of witnesses for the remainder

 7     of our defence case with the hours.  We will endeavour to stay within

 8     that -- those limitations, those hour limitations, and we are very

 9     mindful that we need to reserve some time for other witnesses by other

10     Defences.

11             So my apologies if I was misunderstood, but I would have liked to

12     have done him in two hours.  Unless we're going to break at this moment

13     I'm going to continue.  Okay.

14        Q.   1D 02444, if we look at this document, it's 16 October 1992, and

15     this is a request for payment based on the charge of the use of the Busko

16     Lake dam reservoir.  And obviously:  "We hereby request the Croatian

17     Electricity Supply Board to settle immediately the claim ..."

18             We see this is from the municipality of Tomislavgrad.  We saw

19     earlier where Topic is saying that electricity can go to Croatia.  You

20     actually gave us an explanation, but perhaps you can give us a very brief

21     explanation as to what is happening in this particular document, assuming

22     you have the necessary background and information to do so.

23        A.   I would just like to explain it briefly.  When you build a

24     hydro-electric power-plant, that usually implies artificial lake and that

25     artificial lake would then flood or submerge a certain area in the

Page 32553

 1     ex-state, and today the municipality where the land is submerged are

 2     compensated for that.  So in this case the plant is in the Republic of

 3     Croatia, while the accumulation, artificial lake, or the reservoir is in

 4     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the municipality of Livno, and

 5     submerges areas of the Livno and Tomislavgrad municipalities.  Of course,

 6     for this there has to be compensation.  I don't want to go into the

 7     amounts, but there is a right to compensation pursuant to some sort of

 8     regulation or agreement or some kind of deal.

 9        Q.   All right.  Okay.  Now, did this particular arrangement exist

10     prior to the war?  Are you aware of this particular situation, that is,

11     in Tomislavgrad and Busko Lake dam?  Would this exist prior to the war or

12     was this something that was built during the war?

13        A.   It was before the war.  This is just a continuation of the

14     activity from before the war.

15        Q.   Does it continue on today?

16        A.   Yes, it does.

17        Q.   And would I take it that even today there has to be some sort of

18     compensation, similar to what we see in this document?

19        A.   Yes, there is a duty and there are different agreements also

20     about how to resolve this issue.  Now, there is probably a specific

21     agreement about it.

22        Q.   All right.  1D 01805, this is a payroll sheet.  Again, we don't

23     have to busy ourselves too much about this, but the date is rather

24     important, December 1992.  Do you recognise the list -- well, first, do

25     you recognise this power company, EPHZ?

Page 32554

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   All right.  And am I correct that number 2, Zulfo Robovic, and

 3     number 4, Edin Omeragic, are Muslims?

 4        A.   Yes, they're Muslims and the entire team is actually the

 5     management team of the enterprise.

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  If we go to 1D 01806, this is dated 11

 7     January 1993, again the date is rather significant for us.  And we see

 8     that this is -- these are minutes of a session of a management board.

 9     The document is signed by the president, Azer Sirko, the secretary is

10     Djula Hasanagic, I think I got the name right.  First of all, are you

11     familiar with this company, Elektroprivreda?

12        A.   I know the company.

13        Q.   And how important is this company, especially in light of the

14     time, 11 January 1993, what does it actually do?

15        A.   The company is exceptionally important.  It supplies the area

16     with electricity, both citizens and companies.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, it says here at some point by the decision --

18     "by its decision, the founder appointed Azer Sirko president of the board

19     and Blago Planinic vice-president" and of course later on we see that at

20     the proposal of the acting director general, Djula Hasanagic, was

21     unanimously elected secretary of the management board.  If you could

22     please tell us whether these are important positions.

23        A.   Mr. Azer Sirko here is the president of the board of directors.

24     This is the highest position of that company.  The secretary of the board

25     is Djuko Hasanagic.  And the other -- well, this is one position and the

Page 32555

 1     other one is the position of treasurer and both of those positions are

 2     very important in the company.

 3        Q.   All right.  And are they not Muslim?

 4        A.   They are Muslim.

 5        Q.   Okay.  If we look at the next document 1D 01807, and this is --

 6     we see this is minutes, extracts from a meeting, and it says that:  "...

 7     on the 17th of March, 1993," again I point that out for the benefit of

 8     all, "the management board" --

 9             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Karnavas, to interrupt you.

10     I have only a question which is really not in a way controversial I hope.

11     Since the -- one of the persons mentioned before Djula Hasanagic, I

12     believe, since Djula is a Hungarian first name, I wonder if the witness

13     knows if he was Muslim with a Muslim name but in a way partly or mainly

14     Hungarian.  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sure that this is

16     a Muslim -- a Muslim woman.

17             JUDGE PRANDLER:  All right.  Then I give it up, so thank you.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.

19        Q.   1D 01807, we see that at a meeting of 17th March 1993, the

20     management board of Elektroprivreda discussed the extremely serious

21     electrical power situation in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if

22     we go -- I don't want to -- if we go to the third paragraph and it says

23     here:  "The promises made and measures taken by the Ministry of Energy

24     and Electric Power Industry of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that production

25     would restart within the set dead-line were not fulfilled, and without

Page 32556

 1     energy production there were bound to be serious problems with the

 2     system."

 3             Could you please explain what Mr. Sirko is saying here.

 4        A.   At that time the system was in jeopardy because there were no

 5     stable sources of electricity that were working.  They were either not

 6     working or they were not linked to the system, and the stable electricity

 7     sources were thermo-electric power-plants.  So the system now depended on

 8     the hydro-electric power-plants which in turn depended on the rain, on

 9     precipitation.  This year was a year of very little snow, so there wasn't

10     enough water in the reservoirs in order to fill their capacity so it was

11     a problem, how to secure electricity for Bosnia and Herzegovina and for

12     our region.

13        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at paragraph number 6, maybe you

14     could help us out here in light of your previous testimony.  It says:

15     "The HZ HB Elektroprivreda, JP," shall -- "will insist on the

16     implementation of the conclusions from the meeting of 23 February 1993 on

17     the delivery of electricity to Sarajevo and Central Bosnia, the quantity

18     as agreed with the HEP, Croatian Electricity Supply Board, and the Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina EP."

20             Do you see that, sir?

21        A.   I see it.

22        Q.   At that point in time, it would appear that some sort of an

23     agreement was made to deliver electricity to Sarajevo and Central Bosnia.

24     Was it possible, in light of the circumstances, we're talking on or about

25     17 March 1993, the discussion having taken place on 23 February 1993,

Page 32557

 1     what exactly are they talking about?

 2        A.   There was a shortage of electricity in the area where this public

 3     electrical supply in Bosnia was operating.  So the electrical supply

 4     industry of the Republic of Croatia, Republic of Bosnia, and from

 5     Herceg-Bosna, needed to see how to resolve this issue.  So what they

 6     thought was to get the electricity from the Republic of Croatia in order

 7     to resolve these problems, and the electrical supply industry from Bosnia

 8     insisted that these negotiations be finalised -- actually, what it says

 9     here is that they would insist.

10        Q.   The industry from Bosnia-Herzegovina or Herceg-Bosna, which of

11     the ...  it says here that --

12        A.   I was not talking -- saying anything about the industry, I wasn't

13     talking about industry.

14        Q.   Okay.  But it says here in your answer that:  "So what they

15     thought was to get the electricity from the Republic of Croatia in order

16     to resolve these problems and the electricity supply industry from Bosnia

17     insisted on these negotiations being finalised ..." are we talking about

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina or are we talking about Herceg-Bosna?

19        A.   I think that the interpretation is wrong.  Perhaps I spoke too

20     fast.  From what I understood, agreement was reached to resolve problems

21     of the shortage of the electricity power-supply in the Republic of Bosnia

22     and Herzegovina, Bosnia and Herzegovina.  There was also a shortage in

23     the territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, there were

24     problems in Central Bosnia, and there were problems in the supply of

25     Sarajevo with electricity.  And at the time they tried to resolve this in

Page 32558

 1     cooperation with the Republic of Croatia with the electric power-supply

 2     companies of the Republic of Croatia so that the power from the Republic

 3     of Croatia to Central Bosnia and Sarajevo was supposed to be transmitted

 4     by the power transmission lines through Herceg-Bosna so that the

 5     Elektroprivreda of Herceg-Bosna was going to insist that those

 6     negotiations would be completed.

 7        Q.   All right.  And were they completed to your knowledge?

 8        A.   Yes.  The situation kept improving.  Only during conflict or

 9     clashes or combat the situation would deteriorate.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  I believe this may be the time for the break or do

11     I continue.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, for 20 minutes.

13                           --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing's resumed.

16             You may proceed, Mr. Karnavas.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I understand I have 31

18     minutes left, 31.  We will try to do it in 31.

19        Q.   Sir, if you could -- we're going to go to the next -- next topic

20     which deals with PTT matters.  We're going to skip one document, so

21     I'm -- the one -- so skip one document and look at 1D 02671, 1D 02671.

22     This is dated 17 May 1992, as you will see, and the reason I'm skipping

23     is to save a little time.  If we look at the end of the document we see

24     that this is by Enes Santic who is the president of the Crisis Staff of

25     PTT.  Of course we noted the date, and here this is a report on the state

Page 32559

 1     of the postal, telephone, and telecommunications facilities.  I'm not

 2     going to go through this, but I do want to focus your attention on

 3     paragraph number 5 where it says:  "The following persons are engaged in

 4     the aforementioned tasks and they are giving us their assistance,

 5     Mr. Ilija Kozulj, graduate engineer; Mr. Mario Orec, graduated engineer,

 6     employees of UNIS system."

 7             And as I understand it that at that point in time you were with

 8     the special-purpose council, is that correct, from the earlier documents

 9     that we saw?

10        A.   Correct, correct.

11        Q.   And did you know Mr. Santic?

12        A.   I know Mr. Santic, yes.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at the next document, 1D 00906, and

14     here it says the subject is providing for an unobstructed PTT

15     communication connection in the territory, or the area I believe it says

16     in the original version - I don't want to go into that whole discussion,

17     Your Honours - but as I understand the original version is area of

18     Herceg-Bosna, and we see Grude, Ljubuski, Capljina, Neum, Citluk, Siroki

19     Brijeg, Posusje, Livno, and Tomislavgrad, and of course this is by -- for

20     the HVO chief coordinator of the PTT service Mladen Zulj.  And I guess if

21     you could help us out, in this area and the lists of these various

22     municipalities, one, we don't see Mostar; and two, can you account why

23     these particular municipalities, is there some significance that Mr. Zulj

24     has asked for an unobstructed PTT communications system there?

25        A.   First of all, these are municipalities that at the time were

Page 32560

 1     free, liberated.  We need to add Mostar here as well, which was partially

 2     free, but the telephone exchange in Mostar was completely destroyed at

 3     the time so there was nothing to reduce.  He's asking here that telephone

 4     lines -- the use of telephone lines be reduced and that communication

 5     among the centres is secured to put priorities on essential needs in

 6     wartime conditions.

 7        Q.   All right.  If we look at the next document, 1D 00602, this is 24

 8     July 1992, and this is on the installation and use of telephones in the

 9     Mostar municipality.  Do you know why this decision was necessary?

10        A.   At the time there were no telephones in Mostar, at the time we

11     went back some 40 years and so we had a hand-operated telephone exchange

12     that we used for communication.  It was necessary to set up a kind of

13     rule book whom to provide telephone lines to.

14        Q.   All right.  Next, 3D 00658, this is dated 10 August 1992, this is

15     to Mostar PTT.  And this is to:  "Please provide us with three lines to

16     connect the following routes ..."

17             And it's by Arif Pasalic.  Did you know Mr. Pasalic?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all extra

19     microphones be switched off, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, I do know Mr. Arif

21     Pasalic.

22             MR. KARNAVAS:

23        Q.   And do you know why he was asking for these three lines, do you

24     know these locations?

25        A.   I am familiar with these locations.  He wanted lines to be

Page 32561

 1     secured for internal needs.  These are not telephone connections but

 2     lines that are used for internal communications between these points.

 3        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Next document --

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Just for your information, we haven't got this

 5     document.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm shocked.

 7             3D 00658.  I'll see to it -- we can put it right on the ELMO

 8     right now.  It's an exhibit, it's in the e-court, this is complements of

 9     the Praljak team --

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  But it should have been -- all right.

12        Q.   If we go on to the next document 1D 00063, we have here a

13     decision to establish a public enterprise for postal and

14     telecommunications service in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

15     during - and I underscore that word - during a state of imminent threat

16     of war.  Have you had a chance to look at this document, sir, and could

17     you please tell us --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Why would this be necessary?  Why -- why is it necessary to pass

20     this decision?

21        A.   It was necessary to merge all the parts of enterprises that were

22     in this field so that we could secure communications for the needs of the

23     defence, for the needs of the businesses, the needs of the citizens.

24     We're talking about parts of the PTT companies in Mostar as well as other

25     companies on the free territory of -- in Bosnia and in Posavina.

Page 32562

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at the next document, 1D 02670, this

 2     is a report on the possibilities for improving the system of

 3     telecommunications.  Are you familiar with this document, sir; and if so,

 4     how?

 5        A.   A public company was formed in Mostar for the construction and

 6     rebuilding of Mostar, and that dealt with the rebuilding of the

 7     infrastructure and public companies.  We organized a counselling session

 8     or advisory session at the headquarters of that company and we tried to

 9     get as many people as possible to see how we could restore and rebuild

10     the communications system in the territory that - how can I put it?  - we

11     had under our control.  So that was a part of the group that was at that

12     meeting.  The objective was to agree on how to resolve technical issues

13     in the best possible way.  One of the solutions was given as -- or from a

14     third party -- on page 3 on how to deal with this problem.

15        Q.   Okay, we'll get to that.  But first:  Who prepared this report?

16     I know you told us why it was prepared and the involvement of the -- this

17     public company for reconstruction and rebuilding, but the text of this

18     report?

19        A.   I prepared it or drafted it personally for the most part.

20        Q.   All right.  And do you recall about what period of time?

21        A.   Summer 1992.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at the last page, it would be the

23     last page for everyone, we see this schematic.  Maybe we can put one of

24     them on the ELMO and maybe you can explain to us on the ELMO, you can

25     point how to read this schematic.  First, if I could ask you, who

Page 32563

 1     prepared this schematic?

 2        A.   UNIS Telekom Mostar and its teams provided assistance to the PTT

 3     in repairing the telecommunications system.  They made available

 4     material, equipment, and personnel, and they had a team that made designs

 5     for various technical solutions, various projects.  And this is one such

 6     plan or design that was, for the most part, implemented.  This was done

 7     by Armin Kulundzija and I have to tell you that he is a Muslim because

 8     that's what you always ask me, he worked in Mostar.  And now since Mostar

 9     -- at this time, before it was destroyed, it had a link with Sarajevo and

10     this is not drawn in here because this line was destroyed.

11        Q.   Let me stop you there --

12        A.   It was also linked up --

13        Q.   Okay.  We have to go step by step.  And first if you could look

14     to your right.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So it might be good if you want to either point or you can even

17     mark and go step by step.  Some of us may not be able to understand this,

18     and I can assure you that I'm one of those folks.  So can you walk us

19     through this schematic.

20        A.   Yes, I can.  So this is Mostar, and there was a coaxial cable

21     laid down linking it with Sarajevo; and this line was disrupted, it is

22     not depicted here.  Secondly, there was a relay station located in the

23     area controlled by the Serb army at the time, Paric, that was its name,

24     and Mostar was linked through this relay station with Titograd and the

25     same relay station was used to link Mostar with Split.

Page 32564

 1             Now, since the relay station was captured we didn't know what was

 2     going on.  It was not destroyed but it was just captured and all the

 3     equipment there was switched off.  So all those large systems that were

 4     the basis for the communications system linking Mostar with the broader

 5     area were destroyed.  And now this solution calls for a building of a

 6     completely new relay station on a hill near Mostar, to build a facility

 7     there, a building, to lay power lines to that area, to build up a tower,

 8     to set up aerials.

 9             Now, I don't need to go into details here, but it is important to

10     note that this would make it possible to re-establish communication lines

11     with Split and also to establish communication lines throughout

12     Herzegovina.  But at the same time, it would be possible through these

13     points Plejin Vrh and Cvrsnica, Plocno, to establish communication lines

14     with Central Bosnia.  So this solution envisages a link from Plocno to

15     Sarajevo.  So at that time we were trying to figure out how we could link

16     up Sarajevo with this whole network, thereby making up for what was lost

17     and what existed before the war.  This plan was not implemented fully.

18     We improved it even better and we got even closer to Sarajevo, just a few

19     steps away from Sarajevo.  So the initial idea was from Cvrsnica to

20     Bjelasnica and then you had to go from Bjelasnica to Sarajevo and at that

21     time Bjelasnica was under threat.  I don't know whether it was perhaps

22     destroyed at that time, but we were able to come really close to Sarajevo

23     and it was all in place, it was all implemented.

24        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Just two things if you could do.  If you

25     could take a pen and just draw where this coaxial cable would have been

Page 32565

 1     located and where it was -- you indicated that it was cut.  If you could

 2     just draw that on there.

 3        A.   It was cut in several places, at the so-called Carinski Most, the

 4     customs bridge in Mostar crossing over to the left bank, and then at the

 5     railway bridge north of the town.  So two bridges were destroyed and

 6     cables were laid on those bridges including the one leading to Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Very good.  And then if you could tell us where -- draw

 8     where the relay station would have been, in which direction, because you

 9     mentioned a relay station that would have connected with, I believe,

10     Split.

11        A.   This relay station -- so first of all the communication line went

12     from Mostar to this relay station, and then from there to Titograd, and

13     another communications station to Plejin Vrh and then on to Split.

14        Q.   Now, you've been saying Titograd and some of us may know where

15     that is --

16        A.   Podgorica, that's -- Podgorica today.  That's its name today.

17     It's the capital of Montenegro.

18        Q.   Right.  Exactly.  Thank you.  If we go on to the next chapter --

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm --

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Sure.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Just an additional question, Witness.  You have

22     said that the coaxial cable was interrupted at two points --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At least at two places.

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes.  Were there no damages, no interruptions,

25     do you know anything about this between the immediate surroundings of

Page 32566

 1     Mostar and Sarajevo?  I suppose that the line passed through

 2     Serb-controlled areas.  Do you know whether it was also cut there?  Do

 3     you have any idea?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This cable passed through the

 5     Serb-controlled area up until the closest vicinity of Sarajevo.  I don't

 6     know where it was cut.  I don't know whether there were any major bridges

 7     there, but I know for sure about the disruptions or -- in Mostar.  The

 8     two bridges, the customs bridge and the railway bridge, they were

 9     destroyed and that's why the cables were cut at those places.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question,

11     it's not technical but it has to do with this report we have, 1D 2670.  I

12     note that UNIS Telekom is quite a large company, it's supposed to do all

13     the work for this -- for these telephone lines and it dates back to 1979.

14     In this document it seems that UNIS Telekom has a long-term contract with

15     a Swedish company called Ericsson.  This is what is written in this

16     document.  In this document it seems that UNIS Telekom is going to have a

17     role to play to put all these lines up again and therefore there is a

18     description, and I don't have much to say about this, but this is what I

19     note, it seems that Ericsson is going to be set aside because on the

20     paragraph before last it seems that UNIS is going to do this work with

21     partners from Croatia.  So can you tell me exactly what happened?  Why is

22     it that Ericsson suddenly disappears from the scene?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Ericsson did not disappear,

24     Your Honour.  Ericsson remained the partner of UNIS Telekom but please

25     bear in mind that the public company that was post and

Page 32567

 1     telecommunications, it's a public company, whereas UNIS Telekom is a

 2     state or socially owned company and it is a normal business operating in

 3     accordance with the laws of economics.  During the war whatever UNIS

 4     Telekom did for post or telecommunications or anyone else, it submitted a

 5     bill and it collected the money, perhaps not immediately.  But as soon as

 6     it became possible to collect the money for the services delivered, it

 7     did so.  If necessary, it could contract out anything.  It could work

 8     with Siemens or with Ericsson, because you have to know that Ericsson has

 9     a similar production plant in Zagreb.  There is a Nikola Tesla factory

10     which is owned by Ericsson now, and at that time it was based on the same

11     principle as the UNIS Telekom.  Have I made myself clear?

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.

14        Q.   We'll go on to the next segment very quickly.  This deals with

15     the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna --

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm told that I need to ask for an IC number with

17     the document that we had on the ELMO.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the diagram shall be given Exhibit

20     Number IC 00848.  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.

22        Q.   1D 02038, this is a decision on the election of the president,

23     vice-president, members of the government, and we see that your name is

24     there as minister of transport and communication.  This is what you were

25     telling us earlier, that you were appointed as minister of the Croatian

Page 32568

 1     Republic -- as one of the ministers in the Croatian Community of

 2     Herceg-Bosna; correct.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.  And we can see the date is 20 November 1993.  If we

 5     look at the next document, 1D 01982, this is signed by Dr. Jadranko

 6     Prlic, president of the government of Herceg-Bosna, that's how -- what it

 7     says in English.  It's the subject matter, meeting between the

 8     representatives of the Government of the Republic of Croatia and the

 9     Government of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna for economic

10     issues ...  and we see it's 14 December 1993.  It then talks about an

11     agreement of 19 November and 3 December 1993, the meetings between the

12     delegation of the Government of the Republic of Croatia and the

13     Government of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and then it -- then

14     we see that certain recommendations are being made, one of them is:

15     "Cooperation in the field of public enterprises, electricity supplies,

16     the railroad, water-supply, post and telecommunications, roads."

17             And then we see that the meeting will be attended and the

18     minister of transport and communications is going to be one of the

19     individuals participating in the meeting.  If you could tell us very

20     briefly, what was this meeting about, if you recall?

21        A.   Well, I do recall.  At that time we had a meeting where we

22     discussed how the cooperation in the areas of infrastructure and economy

23     could be improved between the two governments.  So this is the topic of

24     our discussion.  A number of issues came up and we tried to deal with

25     them to find solutions -- well, I don't want to ...

Page 32569

 1        Q.   Okay.  I think that's sufficient.  Now, before I show you the

 2     next document, which is 1D 01977, if you could briefly tell us how is it

 3     that you were appointed to the position of minister of transport and

 4     communications?  If you could be very brief about it.

 5        A.   Well, I was in Zagreb at the time on a trip that had to do with

 6     some family issues, and as I was watching TV I saw that I was appointed a

 7     minister in the Government of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  I

 8     called Mr. Prlic and I asked him what this was all about.  And he told

 9     me, I was asked to put in a recommendation and I recommended you and this

10     is now done.

11        Q.   All right.  Now -- and did there come a --

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  This is rather surprising.

13             Are you saying that you were elected by surprise for yourself?

14     You learned on television?

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  He was nominated.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Or you were nominated.  Was that a full

17     surprise, as you seem to have --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it came as a surprise for me

19     and I have to say that it was also an honour.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

21             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, maybe I should have asked another question

22     as well on top of that.

23        Q.   How many individuals were there at that time in and around the

24     location with your sort of background and experience?

25        A.   Well, to be quite frank, a limited number of people, people who

Page 32570

 1     had expertise and some ability were few and far between, but -- and I

 2     also have to say that in the area that I dealt with I don't know anyone.

 3        Q.   All right.  And now -- did -- what made you actually accept the

 4     position?  I know that you were informed, Mr. Prlic said he put your name

 5     on the list, that's the way it is.  Did there come a time when you had to

 6     make a decision whether you would actually accept the position if indeed

 7     elected to it; and if so, what happened?

 8        A.   Well, I have to say that I was encouraged by the first session of

 9     the Government of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the president

10     also participated, Mr. Mate Boban; and at that meeting a number of issues

11     and tasks were discussed, issues and tasks of the government.  And one of

12     the major issues was that the government would make sure that law and

13     order were imposed and that international conventions would be complied

14     with in every way.  And for me this was an impetus for me to get really

15     involved in the work of this government.

16        Q.   If we look at 1D 01977 now, and this is a report dated 27

17     December 1993, keeping in mind your particular work that you were

18     involved with, are you familiar with the contents of this report and can

19     you tell us to any degree of certainty whether this report comports with

20     efforts that were being made as described in this report as at the time?

21        A.   Yes, I was aware of it at the time and I knew about the contents

22     of this document, and it is in line with what was agreed at the first

23     session of the government.

24        Q.   All right.  If we look at the next document, P 07825, this is

25     titled declaration.  If we look at the last page we see this is 8

Page 32571

 1     February 1994, Livno.  Were you in Livno by any chance?

 2        A.   Yes, I was in Livno at the session.

 3        Q.   And were you there when this declaration was drafted?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  And I'm not going to go into it with any detail, but

 6     let's look at the next document, 1D 01614.  And this is 9 February 1994,

 7     these are the minutes of the 14th Session.  We see that you're there, and

 8     if we go -- without going through the document in any degree of detail,

 9     if we look at item 16 which would be on the last page in the English

10     version, page 5, Your Honours, it says:  "In the statement from today's

11     session of the government points out that the Government will do its part

12     in keeping with the adopted declaration from the extraordinary session of

13     the House of Representatives of the Assembly of the HR HB in Livno."

14             Looking at this part, the declaration that they're referring to

15     here, that's the declaration that we just saw; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And do you know -- now going back to the declaration for one

18     second, can you tell us what this declaration was about?  What was the

19     purpose for having this declaration?

20        A.   I see this declaration as follows.  First of all, in terms of the

21     text of this declaration, I find it acceptable and I found it acceptable

22     at the time.  It was adopted at the time when it seemed that peace was in

23     our -- within our grasp because there were firm agreements in place that

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina would establish as a state consisting of three

25     republics, and we in Livno were happy that the time had come for the war

Page 32572

 1     to stop and to start the reconstruction and re-establishment of normal

 2     life in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   All right.  And the union of three republics, that peace

 4     agreement you're referring to is the Owen-Stoltenberg; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, precisely.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, I just have a couple more documents left and

 7     then I'll be through.  The next segment deals with the Washington --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Three minutes left.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:

10        Q.   The last document -- the last segment which deals with the

11     Washington Agreement, if we look at 1D 01953, we see it's -- at the top

12     we see 23 April 1994.  We see your name here.  These are notes from a

13     meeting of the representatives of the Government of the Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Government of the Croatian Republic of

15     Herceg-Bosna held on 6th April, and of course it's in the context of the

16     implementation of the Washington Agreement.  And then of course if we

17     look at paragraphs number 4, number 7, they deal with sort of areas

18     you've discussed.  Do you know what this document is about and were

19     you -- can you tell us a little bit about the meeting?  Let me put it

20     that way, and we see by the way Mr. Faruk Sma ilbegovic.

21        A.   Yes, it was a meeting in Mr. Jadranko Prlic's office.  That was

22     the first meeting I had with the officials from Sarajevo.  There were two

23     of my friends in that delegation, Faruk Smailbegovic and Ibro Koludar and

24     there was a long debate at this meeting about various issues in an effort

25     to establish contacts and to start work, start cooperation, on various

Page 32573

 1     issues.

 2        Q.   All right.  And did that -- was it a successful meeting?

 3        A.   In my opinion, it was, particularly because other meetings

 4     followed.

 5        Q.   All right.  1D 02668, this is a report on the implementation of

 6     the Washington Agreement and the Constitution of the Federation of BH.

 7     If we look at it, it lists various dates in the first page and the

 8     introduction, and then we see contents about roads, railway, post and

 9     telecommunications, radio, television, and so on.  Can you please tell us

10     if you recognise this document; and if so, how?

11        A.   I do recognise this document; I drafted it.

12        Q.   Do you know about when?  I know that the last date that we see is

13     31st August 1994, and can you tell us about when?

14        A.   Well, it was sometime in September that year or perhaps -- well,

15     September or October 1994.

16        Q.   And finally the last document, 1D 02672, it says here:  "Postal

17     services and telecommunications in Mostar area in the period of homeland

18     war.

19             "Remarks."

20             If we look at the end of this document it's Mostar, 30th of June,

21     2007.  Can you please tell us if you recognise this document.

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   How is it that you recognise it?

24        A.   Well, when I was told that -- well, first of all, I drafted it --

25        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

Page 32574

 1        A.   So when I was told that I should come here and testify before

 2     this Tribunal, I went through the documents that I had in my personal

 3     files from that period and I put together a kind of a summary of the

 4     relevant activities.

 5        Q.   All right.  And in fact, if I may lead you, during the proofing

 6     session yesterday you pointed it out to me that this was a document that

 7     you had prepared; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  All right.  I have just one last final question.  If you

10     could please describe to the Trial Chamber your first visit to Sarajevo

11     after you were appointed to your position, your first visit to Sarajevo,

12     what transpired.  And in that, if you could please give us a few words

13     about Dr. Jadranko Prlic and his efforts during that first visit as well

14     and his efforts thereafter.

15        A.   First of all, after this first meeting we arranged -- we decided

16     that such a visit should be arranged and a large group of people from

17     Mostar headed to Sarajevo.  I was in that team and so were my associates.

18     When we got close to Sarajevo, we were told that we could not cross -- we

19     could not go across the airport to get into Sarajevo, we had to use the

20     tunnel.  It was a make-shift tunnel that was used to go in and out of

21     Sarajevo, and that's what we did.  It was very difficult, almost

22     impossible, but we got in and we held those talks.  I was quite happy

23     with the outcome of the talks.  There were quite a few initiatives that

24     were tabled on our side, and I think that those initiatives were accepted

25     at those meetings; but unfortunately it seemed that at some place they

Page 32575

 1     were blocked.  That was my impression.  As far as I was concerned, I told

 2     Mr. Prlic that I did not want to pass the tunnel, I couldn't pass through

 3     it anymore, and I know that he passed through it dozens of times.  And I

 4     know that he put in a lot of effort to establish a good joint government;

 5     that's what I know.  Well, we're running out of time so I can't go into

 6     any more details.

 7        Q.   The last question is:  When did this occur?

 8        A.   Well, there is a date here.  It was I think the 29th of April, if

 9     I'm not mistaken.

10        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much, sir.

11        A.   Yes, it was three days, from the 27th until the 29th of April.

12        Q.   April 19 ...

13        A.   1994.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   27th until the 29th April, 1994.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Kozulj.  I have no further questions.  I

17     really appreciate you answering all the questions that anyone else may

18     pose to you.  Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have 15 minutes

20     left.

21             Mr. Khan.

22             MR. KHAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  You'll

23     be glad to learn that the Defence for Bruno Stojic have no questions for

24     this witness.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

Page 32576

 1             MR. KOVACIC:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  Mr. Praljak is planning to

 2     have his own questions.  It is mostly about electricity.  As you have

 3     heard, this witness is electrical engineer, the same diploma as

 4     Mr. Praljak, and this is good opportunity as many of those issues are

 5     raised on the direct examination but some areas are not covered.  And

 6     perhaps Mr. Praljak will have additional, couple of questions, to that

 7     main subject.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, in other words,

 9     Mr. Praljak is also an -- or was an electrical engineer or still is?

10             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's what I

11     said.  Perhaps it was lost in translation, but we know that from his CV.

12     It's stated in his indictment and we never challenged this claim.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I just may add a point.  You have stated,

14     Mr. Kovacic, that he would cover lacuna in direct.  So are we to

15     understand that he is in a way continuing direct rather than

16     cross-examination?

17             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  He will follow-up

18     on the topics that were raised, but you will see that we will go through

19     some documents.  But in essence, this is the cross-examination because

20     some topics were raised but there are other questions to pursue on those

21     topics, so it qualifies as cross-examination.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Last question, Mr. Kovacic.

23     How much time do you need roughly?

24             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] It is our estimate that Mr. Praljak

25     could need about one hour, bearing in mind the length of the

Page 32577

 1     examination-in-chief and the time that the Defence -- other Defence teams

 2     are given, no other teams have time.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So if there were

 4     other Defence teams they would only have 30 minutes.

 5             Mr. Praljak, we have ten minutes left today.  Let's go ahead.

 6             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             I would just like to note that this is a good opportunity for a

 8     top electrical engineer, Mr. Kozulj, to testify here so that we could

 9     finish with electricity and the telephone connections and those problems

10     because it seemed to me that this problem was being simplified

11     technically and that it seemed as if all of that could be done at home or

12     a do-it-yourself kind of thing in 24 hours.

13                           Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Anyway, good evening, Mr. Kozulj.

15        A.   Good evening.

16        Q.   In view of the fact that we don't have that much time, I'm going

17     to change my order.  I wanted to start with something else, but I will

18     change that.  Look at 1D 00549, 1D 00549.  It's a document that has just

19     been distributed to Their Honours and to you.  It's a document of the

20     29th of May, 1992.  We're going to look at this first item which says:

21     "For the purpose of" -- oh, "in order to prevent unauthorised connection

22     or disconnection of electricity supply for consumers, guard or secure all

23     10/0.4 kilowatt transformer stations in local communes."

24             Do you recall that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 32578

 1        Q.   Do you recall the document setting out the priorities to repair

 2     the electrical supply network?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So can you please tell me, where does this conclusion come from

 5     that you can just arbitrarily switch on or off these transformer

 6     stations?  Do we agree that there are people who take a key, they open up

 7     the transformer station, and switch their area on if they want; so in

 8     order to prevent this from happening, they needed to be or these

 9     transformer stations needed to be placed under guard?

10        A.   At that time there were power cuts --

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, I have to recall a rule that has been

12     recalled many times, mostly once when we had a witness from -- who speaks

13     B/C/S.  When you have been presented by a question, it first must be

14     translated into English so that we understand it.  If you answer

15     immediately much gets lost.  So if you could perhaps start again with

16     your answer.  Thank you very much.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I apologise.

18             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   According to you, did this cover the possibility for somebody to

20     arbitrarily switch electricity on or off, regardless of any instructions,

21     and was it therefore needed to guard the transformer stations?

22        A.   I think -- I don't know of any cases, of anyone doing anything

23     arbitrarily, but that possibility always existed.  So if there were

24     limitations to the use of electricity and there was an attempt to secure

25     supply only for priority consumers, then it's possible that in such a

Page 32579

 1     situation somebody behaved badly and tried to get access to the

 2     transformer station without authorisation and reconnect.  So in order to

 3     prevent anything like that from happening, the mayor of Mostar asked that

 4     special attention be paid for that -- to that.

 5        Q.   So we're going to look at this document of the 10th of April in

 6     order to look at power-plants, regarding -- regardless of whether they're

 7     hydro, nuclear, or thermal power-plants, what would be the voltage of

 8     electricity use?

 9        A.   It would be high-voltage electricity that's being used.  The

10     power-plants produced -- to tell you the truth, high-frequency or

11     high-voltage electricity, and it's manufactured in that form because it

12     is being transmitted via the power-supply network.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Mr. Praljak, you have just spoken

14     and referred to this document of the 10th of April.  Now, the one we have

15     here is 29th of May, and I wonder whether it was a slip of a tongue or

16     whether you had another document in mind.

17             MS. ALABURIC:  [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I did not make a mistake.

20     I think there was a mistake in the translation -- did I make a mistake?

21     No, no, it was a mistake in the translation.  Whatever it was, I said it

22     correctly.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I was not blaming you or something,

24     but I wanted to avoid that there is something strange in the transcript.

25             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course you

Page 32580

 1     are there to warn me.

 2        Q.   Please, Mr. Witness, can you clarify why does electricity have to

 3     be a high-voltage one in order to transmit it?  Why does electricity have

 4     to be raised to 10 kilovolts, 35 kilovolts or 110 or 230 kilovolts to 430

 5     kilovolts?  Why is this necessary?

 6        A.   Because -- well, it's a technical question but I'm going to try

 7     to explain it in the simplest possible way.  If you have consumption of

 8     electricity, specific consumption, then the electricity that goes through

 9     the distribution network is connected to the voltage.  If you have a

10     certain voltage, the electricity would be its power divided by its

11     voltage.  So you have the power divided by the voltage.  The higher the

12     voltage, the less electricity in the line, so less is lost in the

13     transmission and the frequency doesn't fall.  If the distance at which

14     the electricity needs to be transmitted, the voltage at which it is

15     transmitted is higher.  I think that is the simplest way.

16        Q.   If --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Mr. Engineer or

18     Mr. Minister, I don't know what title to give you, you've just said

19     something, but isn't there a mathematical formula which would be that P =

20     VI square or power is a voltage multiplied by intensity to the square --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] O times E.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So can we agree the strength times the voltage would equal the

25     strength of the electricity.  If the voltage is higher, the electricity

Page 32581

 1     proportionally needs to be lower in order to transmit the same amount and

 2     the electricity has to be lower because electricity that passes through

 3     the lines warms or heats up the lines and a lot of that energy is just

 4     lost in the air; is that true?

 5        A.   Yes, losses are increased, and if you would like more not only is

 6     the energy lost while it is being transmitted but also the voltage at the

 7     end of the consumer is less.  So instead of the consumer receiving 220

 8     volts, he receives only 150 volts, which is actually not good for that

 9     consumer because they cannot operate their machinery.

10        Q.   All right.  Very well.  You said that the transformer station and

11     the switching stations, Cule, received voltage of 400 kilovolts; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.

14        Q.   And now this is my question:  If 400 kilovolts, 4.000 [as

15     interpreted] volts, needs to be reduced to 220 volts, is this possible to

16     do with only one transformer station?

17        A.   Absolutely not.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Again, I'm trying to assist you, there may be --

19     I'm sorry, there may be a loss in translation.  400 kilovolts, are they

20     not 400.000 rather than 4.000 volts?  Thank you.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] It's a mistake in the translation.

22             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I think I said it

23     correctly.

24        Q.   Could you explain to our honourable auditorium why this is not

25     possible to do in one transformer station.  We're not going to go into

Page 32582

 1     all the types of current and so on and so forth, Tesla's theorys, but if

 2     you can just please tell us why essentially this is not possible.

 3        A.   Well, there are many reasons why this is not possible, but also

 4     in practice this is never essential.  You never have one consumer or one

 5     group of consumers.  Usually such large transformer stations have two or

 6     three power transmission lines of the highest possible voltage, 400

 7     kilovolts.  You also have a large number of smaller transmission lines of

 8     220, 110, and even 35 kilovolts.  So that means that you need to

 9     transform that first from 400 to 220 and then from 220 to 110 and then

10     110 to 35, and then we also need to transfer it from 35 to 10 or 20 at

11     the consumer's end.

12        Q.   Or as we see in this document, to 0.4 kilovolts; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, from 35, so from the transformer station, the large one, the

14     transmission line goes at least to 35, that's the lowest, and there it's

15     transformed to 10 or 20 kilovolts and then continues to be transformed in

16     some settlement or some small company from 10 or 20 to 0.4 and this is

17     the electricity that is being consumed in the households.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, for those who have failed

19     to understand, they have the whole night to think it over.  We shall

20     continue tomorrow.  We shall be starting at 2.15.  Have a very good

21     evening.  See you tomorrow.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

24                           September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.